Speaker 1: Pushkin.
Speaker 2: My sister calls me a happiness bully, because if I
Speaker 2: think there's a way for you to be happier, I
Speaker 2: can get kind of insistent.
Speaker 1: For over a decade, author Gretchen Rubin has been on
Speaker 1: a mission to crack the nut on happiness, and what
Speaker 1: she's found has surprised her.
Speaker 2: I went into it thinking like, well, what I'm going
Speaker 2: to find is the best set of habits and the
Speaker 2: best practices for happiness, and like the core principles, but
Speaker 2: it's really about understanding the variety with which people approach
Speaker 2: their lives and the multitude of tools that different people use.
Speaker 1: On today's episode, how understanding our personalities can help us
Speaker 1: unlock a better path to happiness. I'm Maya Schunker and
Speaker 1: this is a slight change of plans, a show about
Speaker 1: who we are and who we become in the face
Speaker 1: of a big change. Gretchen Ruben is the author of
Speaker 1: five best selling books about happiness, all a delightful blend
Speaker 1: of memoir and science based insights. She's also the creator
Speaker 1: of The Happiness Project, an initiative that spans several books,
Speaker 1: a podcast, and a vibrant online community. I was drawn
Speaker 1: to Gretchen's story because she never thought she'd end up
Speaker 1: in this space. In fact, she'd trained as a lawyer,
Speaker 1: graduating from Yale Law School and clerking for the Supreme Court.
Speaker 1: Gretchen was on this path until one gloomy, rainy day
Speaker 1: when she was struck by existential question, the kind that
Speaker 1: can hit you when you're surrounded by a bunch of
Speaker 1: soggy people on a city bus.
Speaker 2: I said, well, what do I want from life anyway?
Speaker 2: And I thought, well, I want to be happy. And
Speaker 2: I realized I was saying I wanted to be happy.
Speaker 2: But I didn't spend any time thinking about whether I
Speaker 2: was happy or if I thought I could be happier.
Speaker 2: I didn't even really know could you make yourself happier?
Speaker 2: And I thought, you know, I should have a happiness project.
Speaker 2: And I ran out to the library and got a
Speaker 2: giant's stack of books. This is something that happens to
Speaker 2: me frequently. I get really enraptured with some idea like happiness,
Speaker 2: and I run out and I read a ton of books,
Speaker 2: and I take a bunch of notes. But with happiness,
Speaker 2: it was so endlessly fascinating and so interesting. I was
Speaker 2: going deeper and deeper and deeper and getting more and
Speaker 2: more excited about all the things that I could do
Speaker 2: in my own life and to try, you know, all
Speaker 2: these experiments that I wanted to run on myself as
Speaker 2: a guinea pig. It really started just as an experiment
Speaker 2: for my own life. That is what became the Happiness
Speaker 2: Project eventually.
Speaker 1: And for listeners who haven't read The Happiness Project, do
Speaker 1: you mind getting a little color as to the types
Speaker 1: of things that you tried out during your experimental year
Speaker 1: making Happiness?
Speaker 2: Yes, I spent a year. It was a year long
Speaker 2: experiment to see what made me happier? Could I make
Speaker 2: myself happier? And so every month I would pick a
Speaker 2: theme for something that I thought would make me happier.
Speaker 2: So I might work on energy or marriage or work.
Speaker 2: And then for each month I would take a handful
Speaker 2: of sort of concrete, manageable resolutions, things that I felt
Speaker 2: like I could do as part of my ordinary day.
Speaker 2: I didn't do anything that was like a two week
Speaker 2: silent meditation retreat, like these are all things I could
Speaker 2: do as part of my ordinary day, and just to see, like,
Speaker 2: well did this make me happier?
Speaker 1: What were some of the most memorable changes you made
Speaker 1: that you feel had the greatest impact on your happiness,
Speaker 1: or that surprised you in some way.
Speaker 2: Well, one of the biggest surprises, I mean you know
Speaker 2: this is that the research is overwhelming that novelty and
Speaker 2: challenge tend to make people happier, even things like going
Speaker 2: to a new restaurant or walking through a new neighborhood.
Speaker 2: But I thought, well, that's not true of me. I
Speaker 2: like familiarity, I like mastery. I have very limited interest
Speaker 2: in what I like to do. I eat the same
Speaker 2: food all the time. But because of the nature of
Speaker 2: this experiment, I had to test it. I had to
Speaker 2: see what I would find, and so at that time
Speaker 2: I thought, well, I'll start a blog. And this was
Speaker 2: something that at that point was very much out of
Speaker 2: my comfort zone. I always wrote long, I never wrote short.
Speaker 2: I didn't come from journalism, so I was used to
Speaker 2: writing books. Yeah, I didn't know how to do techie stuff.
Speaker 2: I just felt like everything about it was intimidating and
Speaker 2: unfamiliar and scary, and I thought, well, it's novel and challenging,
Speaker 2: so why don't I try this? And that just became
Speaker 2: an enormous engine of happiness for me. I mean, it's
Speaker 2: led to so many things, and I've learned so many
Speaker 2: new skills from just sort of stepping into that territory.
Speaker 2: And so I found that even for a familiarity and
Speaker 2: mastery lover like me, it is true that novels and
Speaker 2: challenge make us happier.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd love to dig in a bit on the
Speaker 1: novelty challenge. Given what you've described about your personality. I
Speaker 1: know that Daniel Kahneman, who won the Nobel Prize for
Speaker 1: his work in behavioral economics, differentiates between moment to moment
Speaker 1: happiness or utility and then remembered utility right or remembered happiness.
Speaker 1: The things that might in the longer term make us
Speaker 1: feel happiness or fulfillment or satisfaction in the short term
Speaker 1: might come along with a lot of unpleasant feelings or
Speaker 1: negative feelings like you described right within those early days
Speaker 1: of blogging.
Speaker 2: The way I think about it is to be happy,
Speaker 2: you have to think about feeling good. So how do
Speaker 2: you have fun, love, enthusiasm, connection, play? You have to
Speaker 2: think about feeling bad? How can you feel less? Guilt? Anger, resentment, boredom, indignation.
Speaker 2: But you also have to think about feeling right, which is,
Speaker 2: does your life live up to your values? Does it
Speaker 2: reflect what you want your life to be, even if
Speaker 2: that makes you feel bad and does not make you
Speaker 2: feel good, it doesn't, And you have to think about
Speaker 2: having an atmosphere of growth, which is when we just
Speaker 2: feel we're happier when we're growing, when we're learning things,
Speaker 2: when we're fixing things, when we're helping someone else, when
Speaker 2: somehow we're just contributing to growth. And so for me,
Speaker 2: it's clearer to think about something like this is this
Speaker 2: is a way that I was growing. And it's a
Speaker 2: trade off that we all have to be thinking about
Speaker 2: at all times, because you know, we say like all
Speaker 2: we have is now, all we have is the present moment.
Speaker 2: That's true. It's also true that a life that is
Speaker 2: wholly focused on the present moment would not be a
Speaker 2: good life. You don't want to do something right now
Speaker 2: to make yourself feel better that just in the end
Speaker 2: is going to make you feel worse. And so I
Speaker 2: think that this tension between how do I feel right
Speaker 2: now versus do I choose to deprive myself of something?
Speaker 2: Do I choose to demand something of myself? Because I
Speaker 2: know that my future self will be happier for it exactly.
Speaker 1: And I think some of the research that I find
Speaker 1: so exciting in the field of cognitive science and psychology
Speaker 1: happiness is around how we can reduce the friction we
Speaker 1: feel in the short term when it comes to reaching
Speaker 1: our long term goals and the fact that our ability
Speaker 1: to build habits out of the things that we want
Speaker 1: to do can be a very effective tactic. Yes, so
Speaker 1: can you talk a bit more about the connection between
Speaker 1: habit building and happiness and again how that can help
Speaker 1: us overcome some of these shorter term obstacles or barriers
Speaker 1: in pursuit of our long term happiness goals.
Speaker 2: Well, and what you're saying is exactly what led me
Speaker 2: to write my book Better Than Before, which is all
Speaker 2: about habit change, because what you see is that people
Speaker 2: want to be happier, but then often what it would
Speaker 2: take to follow through with those aims is to develop
Speaker 2: some kind of habit. Because you're right, habit puts behavior
Speaker 2: on autopilot. We don't have to make decisions, we don't
Speaker 2: have to use willpower. It's just something that happens. We
Speaker 2: just get into a car and put on the seatfeld
Speaker 2: and we just don't give it a second thought, and
Speaker 2: there's a lot of power in that. And so when
Speaker 2: we're trying to build a habit, there's many things that
Speaker 2: we can do to try to strengthen it. So one
Speaker 2: of the few sort of almost universals is that we're
Speaker 2: much more likely to do things that are convenient and
Speaker 2: much less likely to do things that are inconvenient. So
Speaker 2: if there's something you want to do, you want to
Speaker 2: make it as easy as possible, And if something's you
Speaker 2: don't want to do it, you want to make it harder.
Speaker 2: And I've heard of so many funny examples, Oh can
Speaker 2: you share some of them. They sleep in their workout
Speaker 2: clothes so they don't have to change their clothes to
Speaker 2: go work out in the morning. I've heard of people
Speaker 2: who will take their television remote control and like put
Speaker 2: it in a cabinet on the other side of their
Speaker 2: house or apartment, so if they want to turn on
Speaker 2: the TV, they have to walk way out of their way.
Speaker 2: You know, putting your phone in the trunk of your
Speaker 2: car instead of putting it next to you where it's
Speaker 2: going to be beckoning to you with every time it chirps,
Speaker 2: You're just going to want to like ooh, can I
Speaker 2: just take a quick look. Yeah, here, I am at
Speaker 2: a stop it I'm just going to take a quick look, like, well,
Speaker 2: it's in the trunk of your car. That won't that'll
Speaker 2: be too inconvenient. So I think those are things that
Speaker 2: just about anybody can think about as convenience and inconvenience.
Speaker 1: And it's hard to overstate I think just how even
Speaker 1: the smallest of frictions can have a disportionate impact on
Speaker 1: our behaviors. So, like my husband and I go for
Speaker 1: walks in the evening, and it just drives some nuts
Speaker 1: when I occasionally, you know, take my phone out of
Speaker 1: my pocket. So there are times where, and this has
Speaker 1: been a wonderful change in my life as of late,
Speaker 1: I just leave my phone at home. I'm like, between
Speaker 1: the two of us, we only need one phone. So
Speaker 1: that's like the full phase. Yes, great idea. There are
Speaker 1: times where I need to bring my phone for whatever reason,
Speaker 1: and when I do that, I put my phone onto
Speaker 1: airplane mode. And you would think I'm one button away
Speaker 1: from four, going back to four whatever, five g right,
Speaker 1: just one button away, one press away. But in my
Speaker 1: mind that is enough of an antagonist for me to
Speaker 1: not want.
Speaker 2: To do it. Yes, this is not like you have
Speaker 2: to do some you know, you've got to rearrange your
Speaker 2: house to make it easier to do yoga or something.
Speaker 2: This is like, you know, very small things can make
Speaker 2: a difference, and small inconveniences can make it much easier
Speaker 2: to resist temptation exactly.
Speaker 1: And on this topic of you know, small changes generally,
Speaker 1: I love your focus on in for mental changes within
Speaker 1: the constraints of our existing lives to try and become happier,
Speaker 1: because look, most of us don't have the luxury of
Speaker 1: engaging in a radical Elizabeth Gilbertian and pray love escape, Right,
Speaker 1: it's fun to read about, but yeah, it's fun to
Speaker 1: read about.
Speaker 2: We can't manage it.
Speaker 1: And a lot of us only have the mental bandwidth
Speaker 1: even day to day to introduce small changes in our
Speaker 1: lives given our other responsibilities. And I think I share
Speaker 1: some very similar personality traits to you, and that you know,
Speaker 1: I'm a creature of habit, I like routine. I'm not
Speaker 1: actually seeking a revolutionary, big change in my life. I
Speaker 1: don't think that's actually constant with with who I am.
Speaker 1: And so the idea of looking within our own spaces
Speaker 1: to try to find more joy or more happiness, I
Speaker 1: think is for someone like me anyway, and for lots
Speaker 1: of folks who are listening to this who have like
Speaker 1: really busy, active lives and not that much freedom to
Speaker 1: explore other spaces, I think that can be a huge
Speaker 1: source of inspiration.
Speaker 2: So I think that we need to think of things
Speaker 2: that are manageable that we can do as part of
Speaker 2: our ordinary day, things that are concrete, so they're not
Speaker 2: things like I'm going to eat healthier, because it's like,
Speaker 2: what does that mean exactly? Does it mean you're gonna
Speaker 2: not eat out of ending machines? Does it mean you're
Speaker 2: going to cook more? Does it mean that you're going
Speaker 2: to start eating breakfast. Does it mean that you're going
Speaker 2: to start packing a lunch to bring from home. Does
Speaker 2: it mean that you're not going to get take out? Like?
Speaker 2: What does that mean for you? There's a million things
Speaker 2: that could mean. What exactly is the specific habit that
Speaker 2: you're wanting to do and make it manageable and really
Speaker 2: find a way to make it part of your day
Speaker 2: to day. But one of the things I think that
Speaker 2: is really interesting is that you also want to consider
Speaker 2: a lot of different ways for you to achieve your aims.
Speaker 2: I think sometimes we want somebody to say like, this
Speaker 2: is the right way to do it, or this is
Speaker 2: the most effective way to do it. But the problem
Speaker 2: is is that people are really different, even with something
Speaker 2: like morning people and night people. If you want to exercise, say,
Speaker 2: somebody might say to you like I get up every
Speaker 2: morning and go for a run before work and that
Speaker 2: works great, you should do that, and you're just like, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm going to and then you just can't. It just
Speaker 2: doesn't work for you. Yeah, a lot of times people
Speaker 2: get discouraged and I think, well, what's wrong with me?
Speaker 2: Because my partner, my neighbor, or my coworker can do
Speaker 2: this no problem, instead of saying something like, well, maybe
Speaker 2: I'm a night person and I'm at my most productive
Speaker 2: and energetic later in the day, or maybe I need
Speaker 2: accountability and this other person doesn't really need accountability, and
Speaker 2: so if I want to do this, I'll do much
Speaker 2: better if I go with a friend who's going to
Speaker 2: be annoyed if I don't show up, or if I
Speaker 2: exercise with a trainer, or I think about how I
Speaker 2: need to be a role model for someone else because
Speaker 2: I need that accountability to get myself to stick to it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I think one of the reasons I
Speaker 1: was so excited to talk with you today, Gretchen, is
Speaker 1: that a huge inspiration in creating a site change of
Speaker 1: plans was an appreciation that there is no one size
Speaker 1: fits all approach to managing change or happiness, right, and that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's so important to figure out how we will engage
Speaker 1: with a change based on our unique set of personality traits. Yes,
Speaker 1: and so I see similarities in what I've just described
Speaker 1: in your approach, which is identifying core features of your personality.
Speaker 1: You call them tendencies, and then you can try to
Speaker 1: figure out, Okay, given that I have these tendencies, how
Speaker 1: can I then, you know, engineer solutions, specific tailored solutions
Speaker 1: within my own life.
Speaker 2: Yes, I think there is no one size fit cell solution.
Speaker 2: It's you know, birds, bats and bees all fly, but
Speaker 2: they have different kinds of wings so they can all
Speaker 2: get up into the air, but you know, they use
Speaker 2: different tools to do it. And I think people are
Speaker 2: the same.
Speaker 1: After the break, Gretchen shares the four personality types she's
Speaker 1: identified in her work, what she calls the four tendencies.
Speaker 1: Then she explains how understanding your tendency can help you
Speaker 1: become happier. We'll be back in a moment with a
Speaker 1: slight change of plans. Do you mind giving listeners an
Speaker 1: overview of or framework, namely the four tendencies?
Speaker 2: Sure? So this divides people into upholders, questioners, obligers, and rebels.
Speaker 2: And I'll describe it briefly. But if somebody wants to
Speaker 2: take a quiz and like get a report and an answer,
Speaker 2: because I know some people love a quiz and an answer,
Speaker 2: you can go to Gretchen Ruben dot com slash four
Speaker 2: Tendencies Foure Tendencies and it will. It's like three and
Speaker 2: a half million people have taken this quiz. It's free,
Speaker 2: it's quick. But I'll just describe it, and I think
Speaker 2: your listeners will know what they are. Sure, So, what
Speaker 2: it's looking at is something very narrow but significant, which
Speaker 2: is how you respond to expectations, outer expectations like a
Speaker 2: work deadline, and inner expectations like your own desire to
Speaker 2: keep a new year's resolution. So upholders readily meet outer
Speaker 2: and inner expectations. They meet the work deadline, they keep
Speaker 2: the near's resolution without much fuss. They want to know
Speaker 2: what other people expect from them, but their expectations for
Speaker 2: themselves are just as important. So their motto is discipline
Speaker 2: is my freedom. Then there are questions. Questioners question all expectations.
Speaker 2: They'll do something if they think it makes sense, So
Speaker 2: they're making everything an inner expectation. They meet inner expectations,
Speaker 2: they resist outer expectations. They don't like anything that they
Speaker 2: think is arbitrary, ineffective, unjustified. They're always looking for reasons,
Speaker 2: and so their motto is all comply if you convince me. Why.
Speaker 2: Then there are obligers, and this is the biggest tendency
Speaker 2: for both men and women. Obligers readily meet outer expectations,
Speaker 2: but they struggle to meet inner expectations. So these are
Speaker 2: people who say, I don't understand why I can keep
Speaker 2: my promises to other people, but I don't keep my
Speaker 2: promises to myself. So their motto is you can count
Speaker 2: on me, and I'm counting on you to count on me.
Speaker 2: And then finally rebels. Rebels resist all expectations out or
Speaker 2: an inter alike. They want to do what they want
Speaker 2: to do in their own way, in their own time.
Speaker 2: They can do anything they want to do, anything they
Speaker 2: choose to do. But if you ask or tell them
Speaker 2: to do something, they are very likely to resist, and
Speaker 2: typically they don't tell themselves what to do. So their
Speaker 2: motto is you can't make me, and neither cannot. So
Speaker 2: those are the four tendencies.
Speaker 1: Okay, So let's say that someone has identified what their
Speaker 1: tendency is, right, yes, can you give just a couple
Speaker 1: of illustrations of ways that they might be able to
Speaker 1: apply that to their own life in order to see
Speaker 1: greater happiness or change or whatever their goals are.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. So let's say that someone wants the habit of exercising,
Speaker 2: because that's a very common habit that people like because
Speaker 2: they know it makes them happier and more energized and
Speaker 2: sleep better. So let's say you're an obliger. That's the
Speaker 2: biggest tendency you need out our accountability. So you just
Speaker 2: need to figure out how to get that if you're
Speaker 2: a questioner. Questioners are good at forming habits once they
Speaker 2: decide that's what they want. And if you see a
Speaker 2: questioner who's sort of stalled out and says they want
Speaker 2: to form a habit, but it is having trouble even
Speaker 2: though they say, well, I know this is make me happier.
Speaker 2: It's probably because they don't have clarity. They need to
Speaker 2: know why. But it's not just like why would I exercise?
Speaker 2: It's like why am I going to do this kind
Speaker 2: of exercise? Why am I listening to this expert? Why
Speaker 2: am I doing it this way? Why am I doing
Speaker 2: it at this time of day. The more clarity they have,
Speaker 2: the more their questions are answered, the more they will
Speaker 2: have that feeling of like, oh, this makes sense. I'm
Speaker 2: in for rebels. Rebels do not tend to have good
Speaker 2: luck with things like scheduling. They tend not to like accountability,
Speaker 2: they don't like somebody looking over their shoulders. So a
Speaker 2: lot of things that work for other tendencies don't work
Speaker 2: as well for rebels. So if a rebel wanted to
Speaker 2: do this, I would say, one, think about your identity,
Speaker 2: because identity is such an important value to rebels. I'm
Speaker 2: a person who who has a strong, healthy, active body,
Speaker 2: or I love to travel and to travel like, I
Speaker 2: got to be in good shape if I want to
Speaker 2: climb mountains, if I want to get on, you know,
Speaker 2: a bus in the middle of a foreign country, I
Speaker 2: gotta bring that strength. And so of course I'm an
Speaker 2: exercise that's like part of who I am. Or it's
Speaker 2: like I'm going to go exercising in the middle of
Speaker 2: the day when I'm supposed to be working because I'm
Speaker 2: not staying behind a screen and you can't make me,
Speaker 2: you know. Or they might like a challenge rebels off
Speaker 2: and love a challenge. Hey, you think I can't run
Speaker 2: a marathon, watch me. That is what I have learned
Speaker 2: from rebels as an upholder, which is my tenancy. And
Speaker 2: so for upholders, I have to say, habits come more
Speaker 2: easily to upholders. They tend to like calendars, they like
Speaker 2: to do lists, they like execution, they like planning, and
Speaker 2: so they tend to find a lot of satisfaction in that.
Speaker 2: This is also why upholders should be aware that others
Speaker 2: often do not find it as easy and satisfying to
Speaker 2: do the things that upholders do. Upholders often think, hey,
Speaker 2: look it works for me, Just give it the program,
Speaker 2: do what I do, and you'll be it'll work for you.
Speaker 2: And it's like, no, it won't, because we're all different.
Speaker 2: We all have to figure out what works for us.
Speaker 1: So I'm curious question. I know. I mean, I've only
Speaker 1: had the joy for company for some short number of minutes.
Speaker 1: At this point, however, a little challenge for you. I
Speaker 1: know you're an uholder, not a rebel, but I'm going
Speaker 1: to give you a challenge anyway. So, Okay, I took
Speaker 1: your quiz, and I'm curious to know if you can guess,
Speaker 1: based on the very limited data you have about me
Speaker 1: so far, which tendency I fell into.
Speaker 2: Well, can I ask you how you feel about year's resolutions?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I like new yer's resolutions. I feel emboldened by them,
Speaker 1: and I usually try and take advantage of them.
Speaker 2: Do people ever tell you that you're too rigid or
Speaker 2: that you should be more spontaneous? No? Do people ever
Speaker 2: tell you that you ask too many questions? Yes? Okay,
Speaker 2: well you're leading me to think that you're a questioner
Speaker 2: who tips to upholder. That's what That's what I'm thinking now.
Speaker 1: Yes, so I am a questioner, but I will say
Speaker 1: when filling out the quiz. One challenge I faced is
Speaker 1: that depending on like the hat that I was wearing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know this is a very meta and very ironic.
Speaker 2: Okay, now you're going deep into questionner because questionners often
Speaker 2: say I can't answer the quiz because and then they
Speaker 2: go into like all the distinctions and like how this
Speaker 2: and how that, and they're one of each thing, and
Speaker 2: but I won't put you through that. No, But but
Speaker 2: it's actually interesting because it is very much a question
Speaker 2: or response. Yeah, and so that is making me think
Speaker 2: just even being like I question the validity of this
Speaker 2: framework or like you know, what about selection bias, like
Speaker 2: you know, these kinds of like questions. This is why
Speaker 2: the questioner tendency is so valuable, because these questions are
Speaker 2: really valuable.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I just I was finding that depending on
Speaker 1: the hat that I put on when answering, when going
Speaker 1: through the quiz, I could be an obliger in certain
Speaker 1: contexts in my life, and I was more of a
Speaker 1: rebel in other areas of my life. Yeah, I definitely
Speaker 1: feel like there's a lot of malleability depending on the
Speaker 1: context in which I'm operating. So if listeners go in
Speaker 1: and take the quiz and they don't like what they find,
Speaker 1: and I know you said you shouldn't assign. You know,
Speaker 1: there's no rank order on what head you are, right,
Speaker 1: you just are what you are. In terms of the
Speaker 1: research and psychology un change, it can be really helpful
Speaker 1: to have a growth mindset around things right. It can
Speaker 1: also be helpful to not put too strong a label
Speaker 1: on oneself because we know from identity priming research that
Speaker 1: we will act in ways that align with our social identities.
Speaker 1: And so do you see that there is sufficient malleability
Speaker 1: at least like a spectrum within each category and that
Speaker 1: you can at least aspire to possess some of the
Speaker 1: other traits that you see in the other domains. If
Speaker 1: that's what people desire, I wouldn't think about it as
Speaker 1: trying to be like the other tendencies. I'm trying to
Speaker 1: get what I want. I'm trying to achieve my aim.
Speaker 1: How do I achieve my aim as an obliger? How
Speaker 1: can I use the tools that work for obligers so
Speaker 1: I can get where I want? Because if somebody were
Speaker 1: to say what I really want to be as an upholder,
Speaker 1: what they're really saying is, I think it would be
Speaker 1: easier for me to achieve my aims if I were
Speaker 1: an upholder, or I think it would be easier to
Speaker 1: achieve my aims if I were a questionner, or I
Speaker 1: think I could have the life I want if I
Speaker 1: were a rebel. So it's more like, you get what
Speaker 1: you get and you don't get upset, and you'll work
Speaker 1: with it and then you get where you're trying to go.
Speaker 1: Because I think people do get very distracted by wishing
Speaker 1: they were different from the way they were, So I
Speaker 1: think to clarify my question, I think it's less about
Speaker 1: wanting to be another tendency and more that you might find.
Speaker 1: For example, let's say that you are an upholder. Yes, okay,
Speaker 1: which I am, and you're like, you know what I
Speaker 1: do feel like in my professional life, the fact that
Speaker 1: I'm so rule bound is actually hurting me, hindering me
Speaker 1: in some way, and that if I could cultivate a
Speaker 1: little bit more of a rebel spirit so that I
Speaker 1: saw the constraints of my work in a more flexible way,
Speaker 1: I saw less red tape day to day, I was
Speaker 1: more willing to speak up to my boss. That would
Speaker 1: be a trait from the rebel category. Doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: I'm trying to be a rebel or pretend that I
Speaker 1: can be a rebel fully in that category, But more
Speaker 1: I see traits in other spaces where if I were
Speaker 1: to cultivate that I would be better off right, I
Speaker 1: would end up being happier reaching my goals.
Speaker 2: I think that's a much better way to frame it
Speaker 2: than saying I want to be a rebel. And that's
Speaker 2: what I hear from a lot of people. A lot
Speaker 2: of people are just very categorically, I don't want to
Speaker 2: be my tendency. Tell me how to get to another tendency.
Speaker 2: The way you're saying is very helpful, which is, each
Speaker 2: of these have weaknesses and limitations that are kind of
Speaker 2: complemented by a strength and another tendency. So how can
Speaker 2: you mindfully think about, well, how could I bring that
Speaker 2: in so exactly point as an upholder, that is, you
Speaker 2: describe exactly what I face. Sometimes I'm too eager to
Speaker 2: meet an expectation. I too much follow the rules. So
Speaker 2: I learn from questioners and I think, well, why would
Speaker 2: I do this? What's the point of this? Why am
Speaker 2: I going to meet this expectation? Or a rebel like
Speaker 2: I can choose, I'm free here, like does this work
Speaker 2: for me? Do I feel like doing this or not?
Speaker 2: So I think you're exactly right. I think we can
Speaker 2: study and learn from the strengths of the other tendencies.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I completely agree. I mean, I think it's just
Speaker 1: great to be exploratory in this space and basically to
Speaker 1: learn whatever you can from each you know, see what
Speaker 1: can benefit you. Look, there's lots of psychological models out there,
Speaker 1: lots of ways of divving up personality, and I think
Speaker 1: it's productive to engage with many of them and to
Speaker 1: figure out. I mean, in the same way that we
Speaker 1: might have idiosyncratic preferences around habit formation, what motivates us,
Speaker 1: or the way in which we need to structure incentives
Speaker 1: in our lives, different frameworks might resonate more or less with.
Speaker 2: Us one hundred percent.
Speaker 1: One thing I love, Gretchen is that you you know,
Speaker 1: I think there's a criticism and a happiness face around.
Speaker 1: The more time we spend thinking about it, the worst
Speaker 1: off we are. Happiness is this elusive thing, and it's
Speaker 1: counterproductive to indulge too much in happiness thinking. And you
Speaker 1: counter that, right, You say, no, I don't quite think
Speaker 1: that's right. So do you mind sharing a bit more
Speaker 1: about that?
Speaker 2: You're exactly right. I think it was John Stuart Mills
Speaker 2: who said, ask yourself if you are happy, and you
Speaker 2: shall cease to be so kind of this idea that
Speaker 2: we were going to all trip our own feet but yeah,
Speaker 2: my view is that we're much more likely to hit
Speaker 2: a target if we aim at it, And in my
Speaker 2: observation with happiness, it's not most people. The issue isn't
Speaker 2: that they think about it too much, but they're like
Speaker 2: me and they hardly think about it at all. You know,
Speaker 2: they're in the busyness of everyday life. It's sometimes hard
Speaker 2: to step back and ask ourselves a big question like
Speaker 2: am I making enough time for friends? Am I yelling
Speaker 2: at my kids too much? Are my habits kind of
Speaker 2: slowly chipping away at my health? And do I need
Speaker 2: to do something about that? I've been me need to
Speaker 2: volunteer for like five years now, Am I ever going
Speaker 2: to do anything about that? I know that I should,
Speaker 2: and somehow the day never feels right. And so I
Speaker 2: think that by really saying what would make me happier?
Speaker 2: What could I do as part of my ordinary day?
Speaker 2: And so I think that for happiness, it is really
Speaker 2: helpful to think about it and to try to find
Speaker 2: ways within our ordinary days to make those changes, which
Speaker 2: are often not that demanding and really can give us
Speaker 2: a surprising change.
Speaker 1: You said that, of course, there are very personality specific
Speaker 1: recommendations around happiness yes, but for listeners who are just
Speaker 1: getting their feet wet, let's just give them a little
Speaker 1: bit to warm them up.
Speaker 2: So, if you were going to say what are the
Speaker 2: keys to happiness, one would be relationships. Ancient philosophers and
Speaker 2: contemporary scientists agree that to be happy, you have to
Speaker 2: have strong, enduring bonds. You need to feel like you
Speaker 2: can confide, you have to feel like you belong. You
Speaker 2: have to be able to get support, and just as
Speaker 2: important for happiness, you need to be able to give support.
Speaker 2: So that's one kind of rule of them. Another rule
Speaker 2: of them is it's always helpful to start by thinking
Speaker 2: about your own body because our physical experience always colors
Speaker 2: our emotional experience. And when we feel energy, when we
Speaker 2: feel good in our bodies, that makes it a lot
Speaker 2: easier to do all the other things that we know
Speaker 2: would make us happier. But if we are feeling drained,
Speaker 2: if we are feeling overwhelmed, if we are feeling just exhausted,
Speaker 2: it is very hard to do something even if you
Speaker 2: know it would make you happier, because you just don't
Speaker 2: feel like you can muster up the wherewithal to do it.
Speaker 2: So that's things like give yourself a bedtime, or like
Speaker 2: exercises like a magical elixir where it both energizes us
Speaker 2: but it also calms us down. And so thinking about Okay,
Speaker 2: I'm going to think about my body, my energy, my exercise.
Speaker 2: And another thing to think about is like maybe you
Speaker 2: want to think about having some fun like something that
Speaker 2: you truly anticipate with pleasure, something that you do not
Speaker 2: look back on with regret. So this isn't something that's
Speaker 2: fun now, but it's not funly, something that you look
Speaker 2: back on with pleasure, something that you see it in
Speaker 2: your calendar and you really feel good about set. And
Speaker 2: this isn't like I know I'll feel better if I
Speaker 2: go to a spin class, but I don't really feel
Speaker 2: like going out. Just know I'm going to feel great after.
Speaker 2: It's like, what are you really looking forward to? Is
Speaker 2: there a book that you've been dying to read? Is
Speaker 2: there a TV show you've been dying to watch? Like
Speaker 2: take the time to do something just to give you
Speaker 2: a little bit of that lightness and playfulness. And the
Speaker 2: last thing I would say is like, one of the
Speaker 2: best ways to be happy is to make other people happy.
Speaker 2: And this is a source of happiness that never fails.
Speaker 2: And I had a friend once who was going through
Speaker 2: a terribly difficult time. She got fired, she got rejected
Speaker 2: from a graduate program, and her boyfriend broke up with her.
Speaker 2: And I said, how did you get through it? And
Speaker 2: she said, I was practically addicted to doing good deeds.
Speaker 2: It was the only thing that kept me going. And
Speaker 2: this is something like, even when you kind of don't
Speaker 2: know what to do, if you do even a small
Speaker 2: good deed, like oh, I told you I would send
Speaker 2: you that recommendation, or I'm going to introduce those to people.
Speaker 2: I'm going to hold the door open for somebody with
Speaker 2: a stroller, or I'm going to donate whatever I can
Speaker 2: afford to an organization who's cause I believe in. And
Speaker 2: sometimes people think like, well, if you do something for
Speaker 2: the benefit of someone else and it makes you happier,
Speaker 2: well it's not really selfless because you're really making yourself happier.
Speaker 2: But I'm like, who cares. It always makes me happy
Speaker 2: to see people doing good in the world, And if
Speaker 2: I'm the person doing good in the world, all the better.
Speaker 2: This is a source of happiness that is good for everyone.
Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed my
Speaker 1: conversation with Gretchen. You might also like my episode with
Speaker 1: psychologist Ethan Cross. It's called The Science of Our Inner Voice.
Speaker 1: We'll link to it in the show notes and join
Speaker 1: me next week for a heartfelt conversation with Bennie Rashidi.
Speaker 1: She's a mother whose world was up ended when her
Speaker 1: toddler was given a life changing diagnosis. A Slight Change
Speaker 1: of Plans is created, written, and executive produced by me
Speaker 1: Maya Schunker. The Slight Change family includes our showrunner Tyler Green,
Speaker 1: our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, our producer Trisha Bobida,
Speaker 1: and our sound engineer Andrew Vestola. Louis Scara wrote our
Speaker 1: delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals.
Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries,
Speaker 1: so big thanks to everyone there, and of course a
Speaker 1: very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A
Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker.
Speaker 1: See you next week.