1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:15,396 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:30,476 --> 00:00:32,836 Speaker 2: My sister calls me a happiness bully, because if I 3 00:00:32,836 --> 00:00:34,436 Speaker 2: think there's a way for you to be happier, I 4 00:00:34,476 --> 00:00:35,796 Speaker 2: can get kind of insistent. 5 00:00:36,556 --> 00:00:39,356 Speaker 1: For over a decade, author Gretchen Rubin has been on 6 00:00:39,396 --> 00:00:42,516 Speaker 1: a mission to crack the nut on happiness, and what 7 00:00:42,596 --> 00:00:44,236 Speaker 1: she's found has surprised her. 8 00:00:44,876 --> 00:00:46,676 Speaker 2: I went into it thinking like, well, what I'm going 9 00:00:46,756 --> 00:00:49,756 Speaker 2: to find is the best set of habits and the 10 00:00:49,796 --> 00:00:53,756 Speaker 2: best practices for happiness, and like the core principles, but 11 00:00:53,836 --> 00:00:59,636 Speaker 2: it's really about understanding the variety with which people approach 12 00:00:59,796 --> 00:01:05,276 Speaker 2: their lives and the multitude of tools that different people use. 13 00:01:07,996 --> 00:01:11,876 Speaker 1: On today's episode, how understanding our personalities can help us 14 00:01:11,956 --> 00:01:17,756 Speaker 1: unlock a better path to happiness. I'm Maya Schunker and 15 00:01:17,796 --> 00:01:20,316 Speaker 1: this is a slight change of plans, a show about 16 00:01:20,356 --> 00:01:22,716 Speaker 1: who we are and who we become in the face 17 00:01:22,836 --> 00:01:36,916 Speaker 1: of a big change. Gretchen Ruben is the author of 18 00:01:36,956 --> 00:01:41,156 Speaker 1: five best selling books about happiness, all a delightful blend 19 00:01:41,236 --> 00:01:45,196 Speaker 1: of memoir and science based insights. She's also the creator 20 00:01:45,236 --> 00:01:49,036 Speaker 1: of The Happiness Project, an initiative that spans several books, 21 00:01:49,116 --> 00:01:53,316 Speaker 1: a podcast, and a vibrant online community. I was drawn 22 00:01:53,356 --> 00:01:55,956 Speaker 1: to Gretchen's story because she never thought she'd end up 23 00:01:55,956 --> 00:01:58,916 Speaker 1: in this space. In fact, she'd trained as a lawyer, 24 00:01:59,436 --> 00:02:02,836 Speaker 1: graduating from Yale Law School and clerking for the Supreme Court. 25 00:02:03,676 --> 00:02:07,476 Speaker 1: Gretchen was on this path until one gloomy, rainy day 26 00:02:08,036 --> 00:02:11,556 Speaker 1: when she was struck by existential question, the kind that 27 00:02:11,556 --> 00:02:13,876 Speaker 1: can hit you when you're surrounded by a bunch of 28 00:02:13,916 --> 00:02:16,156 Speaker 1: soggy people on a city bus. 29 00:02:16,596 --> 00:02:18,556 Speaker 2: I said, well, what do I want from life anyway? 30 00:02:18,956 --> 00:02:21,116 Speaker 2: And I thought, well, I want to be happy. And 31 00:02:21,196 --> 00:02:23,836 Speaker 2: I realized I was saying I wanted to be happy. 32 00:02:23,836 --> 00:02:25,996 Speaker 2: But I didn't spend any time thinking about whether I 33 00:02:26,156 --> 00:02:28,596 Speaker 2: was happy or if I thought I could be happier. 34 00:02:28,876 --> 00:02:31,396 Speaker 2: I didn't even really know could you make yourself happier? 35 00:02:31,796 --> 00:02:34,356 Speaker 2: And I thought, you know, I should have a happiness project. 36 00:02:34,756 --> 00:02:37,156 Speaker 2: And I ran out to the library and got a 37 00:02:37,156 --> 00:02:39,756 Speaker 2: giant's stack of books. This is something that happens to 38 00:02:39,836 --> 00:02:44,596 Speaker 2: me frequently. I get really enraptured with some idea like happiness, 39 00:02:44,636 --> 00:02:46,316 Speaker 2: and I run out and I read a ton of books, 40 00:02:46,356 --> 00:02:48,876 Speaker 2: and I take a bunch of notes. But with happiness, 41 00:02:48,916 --> 00:02:52,996 Speaker 2: it was so endlessly fascinating and so interesting. I was 42 00:02:52,996 --> 00:02:55,316 Speaker 2: going deeper and deeper and deeper and getting more and 43 00:02:55,316 --> 00:02:57,036 Speaker 2: more excited about all the things that I could do 44 00:02:57,076 --> 00:02:59,516 Speaker 2: in my own life and to try, you know, all 45 00:02:59,516 --> 00:03:01,796 Speaker 2: these experiments that I wanted to run on myself as 46 00:03:01,796 --> 00:03:04,716 Speaker 2: a guinea pig. It really started just as an experiment 47 00:03:04,836 --> 00:03:07,516 Speaker 2: for my own life. That is what became the Happiness 48 00:03:07,516 --> 00:03:08,476 Speaker 2: Project eventually. 49 00:03:09,196 --> 00:03:11,836 Speaker 1: And for listeners who haven't read The Happiness Project, do 50 00:03:11,836 --> 00:03:13,836 Speaker 1: you mind getting a little color as to the types 51 00:03:13,876 --> 00:03:17,276 Speaker 1: of things that you tried out during your experimental year 52 00:03:17,516 --> 00:03:18,956 Speaker 1: making Happiness? 53 00:03:19,276 --> 00:03:21,156 Speaker 2: Yes, I spent a year. It was a year long 54 00:03:21,196 --> 00:03:24,196 Speaker 2: experiment to see what made me happier? Could I make 55 00:03:24,196 --> 00:03:26,156 Speaker 2: myself happier? And so every month I would pick a 56 00:03:26,196 --> 00:03:28,876 Speaker 2: theme for something that I thought would make me happier. 57 00:03:28,876 --> 00:03:32,756 Speaker 2: So I might work on energy or marriage or work. 58 00:03:33,716 --> 00:03:35,636 Speaker 2: And then for each month I would take a handful 59 00:03:35,636 --> 00:03:38,996 Speaker 2: of sort of concrete, manageable resolutions, things that I felt 60 00:03:39,076 --> 00:03:41,116 Speaker 2: like I could do as part of my ordinary day. 61 00:03:41,756 --> 00:03:44,356 Speaker 2: I didn't do anything that was like a two week 62 00:03:44,476 --> 00:03:46,956 Speaker 2: silent meditation retreat, like these are all things I could 63 00:03:46,956 --> 00:03:50,356 Speaker 2: do as part of my ordinary day, and just to see, like, 64 00:03:50,556 --> 00:03:51,916 Speaker 2: well did this make me happier? 65 00:03:52,436 --> 00:03:54,596 Speaker 1: What were some of the most memorable changes you made 66 00:03:54,636 --> 00:03:57,676 Speaker 1: that you feel had the greatest impact on your happiness, 67 00:03:57,796 --> 00:03:59,396 Speaker 1: or that surprised you in some way. 68 00:03:59,916 --> 00:04:02,036 Speaker 2: Well, one of the biggest surprises, I mean you know 69 00:04:02,156 --> 00:04:04,716 Speaker 2: this is that the research is overwhelming that novelty and 70 00:04:04,796 --> 00:04:07,476 Speaker 2: challenge tend to make people happier, even things like going 71 00:04:07,516 --> 00:04:09,596 Speaker 2: to a new restaurant or walking through a new neighborhood. 72 00:04:09,996 --> 00:04:12,276 Speaker 2: But I thought, well, that's not true of me. I 73 00:04:12,396 --> 00:04:16,516 Speaker 2: like familiarity, I like mastery. I have very limited interest 74 00:04:16,596 --> 00:04:18,436 Speaker 2: in what I like to do. I eat the same 75 00:04:18,436 --> 00:04:21,316 Speaker 2: food all the time. But because of the nature of 76 00:04:21,356 --> 00:04:25,076 Speaker 2: this experiment, I had to test it. I had to 77 00:04:25,156 --> 00:04:28,716 Speaker 2: see what I would find, and so at that time 78 00:04:29,156 --> 00:04:31,836 Speaker 2: I thought, well, I'll start a blog. And this was 79 00:04:31,836 --> 00:04:33,756 Speaker 2: something that at that point was very much out of 80 00:04:33,796 --> 00:04:36,996 Speaker 2: my comfort zone. I always wrote long, I never wrote short. 81 00:04:37,036 --> 00:04:39,076 Speaker 2: I didn't come from journalism, so I was used to 82 00:04:39,116 --> 00:04:42,716 Speaker 2: writing books. Yeah, I didn't know how to do techie stuff. 83 00:04:42,956 --> 00:04:45,996 Speaker 2: I just felt like everything about it was intimidating and 84 00:04:46,076 --> 00:04:51,036 Speaker 2: unfamiliar and scary, and I thought, well, it's novel and challenging, 85 00:04:51,076 --> 00:04:53,236 Speaker 2: so why don't I try this? And that just became 86 00:04:53,276 --> 00:04:56,076 Speaker 2: an enormous engine of happiness for me. I mean, it's 87 00:04:56,156 --> 00:04:58,436 Speaker 2: led to so many things, and I've learned so many 88 00:04:59,076 --> 00:05:02,476 Speaker 2: new skills from just sort of stepping into that territory. 89 00:05:02,996 --> 00:05:05,676 Speaker 2: And so I found that even for a familiarity and 90 00:05:05,756 --> 00:05:09,356 Speaker 2: mastery lover like me, it is true that novels and 91 00:05:09,436 --> 00:05:10,596 Speaker 2: challenge make us happier. 92 00:05:10,996 --> 00:05:12,356 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd love to dig in a bit on the 93 00:05:12,436 --> 00:05:16,236 Speaker 1: novelty challenge. Given what you've described about your personality. I 94 00:05:16,276 --> 00:05:19,036 Speaker 1: know that Daniel Kahneman, who won the Nobel Prize for 95 00:05:19,076 --> 00:05:23,276 Speaker 1: his work in behavioral economics, differentiates between moment to moment 96 00:05:23,516 --> 00:05:28,236 Speaker 1: happiness or utility and then remembered utility right or remembered happiness. 97 00:05:28,636 --> 00:05:30,876 Speaker 1: The things that might in the longer term make us 98 00:05:30,916 --> 00:05:34,636 Speaker 1: feel happiness or fulfillment or satisfaction in the short term 99 00:05:34,916 --> 00:05:37,756 Speaker 1: might come along with a lot of unpleasant feelings or 100 00:05:37,796 --> 00:05:40,716 Speaker 1: negative feelings like you described right within those early days 101 00:05:40,716 --> 00:05:41,276 Speaker 1: of blogging. 102 00:05:41,876 --> 00:05:43,996 Speaker 2: The way I think about it is to be happy, 103 00:05:44,596 --> 00:05:47,236 Speaker 2: you have to think about feeling good. So how do 104 00:05:47,276 --> 00:05:52,876 Speaker 2: you have fun, love, enthusiasm, connection, play? You have to 105 00:05:52,876 --> 00:05:57,596 Speaker 2: think about feeling bad? How can you feel less? Guilt? Anger, resentment, boredom, indignation. 106 00:05:58,276 --> 00:06:00,836 Speaker 2: But you also have to think about feeling right, which is, 107 00:06:00,876 --> 00:06:02,956 Speaker 2: does your life live up to your values? Does it 108 00:06:02,996 --> 00:06:05,676 Speaker 2: reflect what you want your life to be, even if 109 00:06:05,676 --> 00:06:07,996 Speaker 2: that makes you feel bad and does not make you 110 00:06:08,076 --> 00:06:11,076 Speaker 2: feel good, it doesn't, And you have to think about 111 00:06:11,076 --> 00:06:14,156 Speaker 2: having an atmosphere of growth, which is when we just 112 00:06:14,276 --> 00:06:17,116 Speaker 2: feel we're happier when we're growing, when we're learning things, 113 00:06:17,156 --> 00:06:19,436 Speaker 2: when we're fixing things, when we're helping someone else, when 114 00:06:19,436 --> 00:06:22,436 Speaker 2: somehow we're just contributing to growth. And so for me, 115 00:06:22,516 --> 00:06:24,676 Speaker 2: it's clearer to think about something like this is this 116 00:06:24,716 --> 00:06:26,476 Speaker 2: is a way that I was growing. And it's a 117 00:06:26,516 --> 00:06:28,196 Speaker 2: trade off that we all have to be thinking about 118 00:06:28,236 --> 00:06:31,036 Speaker 2: at all times, because you know, we say like all 119 00:06:31,076 --> 00:06:33,276 Speaker 2: we have is now, all we have is the present moment. 120 00:06:33,476 --> 00:06:35,716 Speaker 2: That's true. It's also true that a life that is 121 00:06:35,756 --> 00:06:37,756 Speaker 2: wholly focused on the present moment would not be a 122 00:06:37,756 --> 00:06:40,636 Speaker 2: good life. You don't want to do something right now 123 00:06:40,676 --> 00:06:42,756 Speaker 2: to make yourself feel better that just in the end 124 00:06:42,836 --> 00:06:45,436 Speaker 2: is going to make you feel worse. And so I 125 00:06:45,476 --> 00:06:48,756 Speaker 2: think that this tension between how do I feel right 126 00:06:48,796 --> 00:06:52,916 Speaker 2: now versus do I choose to deprive myself of something? 127 00:06:53,476 --> 00:06:57,716 Speaker 2: Do I choose to demand something of myself? Because I 128 00:06:57,796 --> 00:07:02,556 Speaker 2: know that my future self will be happier for it exactly. 129 00:07:03,356 --> 00:07:05,516 Speaker 1: And I think some of the research that I find 130 00:07:05,916 --> 00:07:08,996 Speaker 1: so exciting in the field of cognitive science and psychology 131 00:07:09,356 --> 00:07:13,036 Speaker 1: happiness is around how we can reduce the friction we 132 00:07:13,076 --> 00:07:14,956 Speaker 1: feel in the short term when it comes to reaching 133 00:07:14,956 --> 00:07:18,076 Speaker 1: our long term goals and the fact that our ability 134 00:07:18,116 --> 00:07:20,956 Speaker 1: to build habits out of the things that we want 135 00:07:20,996 --> 00:07:24,636 Speaker 1: to do can be a very effective tactic. Yes, so 136 00:07:25,036 --> 00:07:27,596 Speaker 1: can you talk a bit more about the connection between 137 00:07:28,036 --> 00:07:30,716 Speaker 1: habit building and happiness and again how that can help 138 00:07:30,796 --> 00:07:33,876 Speaker 1: us overcome some of these shorter term obstacles or barriers 139 00:07:33,916 --> 00:07:35,956 Speaker 1: in pursuit of our long term happiness goals. 140 00:07:36,356 --> 00:07:38,276 Speaker 2: Well, and what you're saying is exactly what led me 141 00:07:38,276 --> 00:07:39,956 Speaker 2: to write my book Better Than Before, which is all 142 00:07:39,996 --> 00:07:42,076 Speaker 2: about habit change, because what you see is that people 143 00:07:42,236 --> 00:07:45,156 Speaker 2: want to be happier, but then often what it would 144 00:07:45,156 --> 00:07:47,556 Speaker 2: take to follow through with those aims is to develop 145 00:07:47,596 --> 00:07:50,316 Speaker 2: some kind of habit. Because you're right, habit puts behavior 146 00:07:50,356 --> 00:07:53,596 Speaker 2: on autopilot. We don't have to make decisions, we don't 147 00:07:53,636 --> 00:07:57,556 Speaker 2: have to use willpower. It's just something that happens. We 148 00:07:57,596 --> 00:07:59,156 Speaker 2: just get into a car and put on the seatfeld 149 00:07:59,196 --> 00:08:00,836 Speaker 2: and we just don't give it a second thought, and 150 00:08:00,876 --> 00:08:04,316 Speaker 2: there's a lot of power in that. And so when 151 00:08:04,356 --> 00:08:07,036 Speaker 2: we're trying to build a habit, there's many things that 152 00:08:07,076 --> 00:08:09,396 Speaker 2: we can do to try to strengthen it. So one 153 00:08:09,396 --> 00:08:11,836 Speaker 2: of the few sort of almost universals is that we're 154 00:08:12,036 --> 00:08:14,316 Speaker 2: much more likely to do things that are convenient and 155 00:08:14,396 --> 00:08:16,796 Speaker 2: much less likely to do things that are inconvenient. So 156 00:08:16,796 --> 00:08:17,996 Speaker 2: if there's something you want to do, you want to 157 00:08:18,036 --> 00:08:20,036 Speaker 2: make it as easy as possible, And if something's you 158 00:08:20,076 --> 00:08:22,156 Speaker 2: don't want to do it, you want to make it harder. 159 00:08:22,716 --> 00:08:25,196 Speaker 2: And I've heard of so many funny examples, Oh can 160 00:08:25,236 --> 00:08:27,356 Speaker 2: you share some of them. They sleep in their workout 161 00:08:27,356 --> 00:08:29,396 Speaker 2: clothes so they don't have to change their clothes to 162 00:08:29,436 --> 00:08:32,476 Speaker 2: go work out in the morning. I've heard of people 163 00:08:32,556 --> 00:08:35,676 Speaker 2: who will take their television remote control and like put 164 00:08:35,676 --> 00:08:37,876 Speaker 2: it in a cabinet on the other side of their 165 00:08:37,916 --> 00:08:39,636 Speaker 2: house or apartment, so if they want to turn on 166 00:08:39,676 --> 00:08:41,796 Speaker 2: the TV, they have to walk way out of their way. 167 00:08:42,676 --> 00:08:45,676 Speaker 2: You know, putting your phone in the trunk of your 168 00:08:45,716 --> 00:08:48,396 Speaker 2: car instead of putting it next to you where it's 169 00:08:48,436 --> 00:08:50,556 Speaker 2: going to be beckoning to you with every time it chirps, 170 00:08:50,596 --> 00:08:52,516 Speaker 2: You're just going to want to like ooh, can I 171 00:08:52,596 --> 00:08:54,356 Speaker 2: just take a quick look. Yeah, here, I am at 172 00:08:54,356 --> 00:08:56,156 Speaker 2: a stop it I'm just going to take a quick look, like, well, 173 00:08:56,316 --> 00:08:57,996 Speaker 2: it's in the trunk of your car. That won't that'll 174 00:08:58,036 --> 00:09:00,396 Speaker 2: be too inconvenient. So I think those are things that 175 00:09:00,516 --> 00:09:03,516 Speaker 2: just about anybody can think about as convenience and inconvenience. 176 00:09:03,996 --> 00:09:06,916 Speaker 1: And it's hard to overstate I think just how even 177 00:09:06,956 --> 00:09:10,076 Speaker 1: the smallest of frictions can have a disportionate impact on 178 00:09:10,076 --> 00:09:12,556 Speaker 1: our behaviors. So, like my husband and I go for 179 00:09:12,676 --> 00:09:14,516 Speaker 1: walks in the evening, and it just drives some nuts 180 00:09:14,516 --> 00:09:16,236 Speaker 1: when I occasionally, you know, take my phone out of 181 00:09:16,236 --> 00:09:18,636 Speaker 1: my pocket. So there are times where, and this has 182 00:09:18,636 --> 00:09:20,516 Speaker 1: been a wonderful change in my life as of late, 183 00:09:20,556 --> 00:09:22,316 Speaker 1: I just leave my phone at home. I'm like, between 184 00:09:22,316 --> 00:09:23,956 Speaker 1: the two of us, we only need one phone. So 185 00:09:23,996 --> 00:09:27,436 Speaker 1: that's like the full phase. Yes, great idea. There are 186 00:09:27,476 --> 00:09:30,276 Speaker 1: times where I need to bring my phone for whatever reason, 187 00:09:30,556 --> 00:09:32,476 Speaker 1: and when I do that, I put my phone onto 188 00:09:32,516 --> 00:09:35,716 Speaker 1: airplane mode. And you would think I'm one button away 189 00:09:35,836 --> 00:09:38,996 Speaker 1: from four, going back to four whatever, five g right, 190 00:09:39,116 --> 00:09:42,276 Speaker 1: just one button away, one press away. But in my 191 00:09:42,476 --> 00:09:46,156 Speaker 1: mind that is enough of an antagonist for me to 192 00:09:46,196 --> 00:09:46,716 Speaker 1: not want. 193 00:09:46,596 --> 00:09:49,316 Speaker 2: To do it. Yes, this is not like you have 194 00:09:49,396 --> 00:09:51,716 Speaker 2: to do some you know, you've got to rearrange your 195 00:09:51,716 --> 00:09:54,116 Speaker 2: house to make it easier to do yoga or something. 196 00:09:54,116 --> 00:09:57,876 Speaker 2: This is like, you know, very small things can make 197 00:09:57,916 --> 00:10:01,436 Speaker 2: a difference, and small inconveniences can make it much easier 198 00:10:01,436 --> 00:10:03,356 Speaker 2: to resist temptation exactly. 199 00:10:03,756 --> 00:10:06,636 Speaker 1: And on this topic of you know, small changes generally, 200 00:10:07,196 --> 00:10:10,196 Speaker 1: I love your focus on in for mental changes within 201 00:10:10,236 --> 00:10:13,396 Speaker 1: the constraints of our existing lives to try and become happier, 202 00:10:13,556 --> 00:10:16,396 Speaker 1: because look, most of us don't have the luxury of 203 00:10:16,476 --> 00:10:22,196 Speaker 1: engaging in a radical Elizabeth Gilbertian and pray love escape, Right, 204 00:10:22,316 --> 00:10:24,156 Speaker 1: it's fun to read about, but yeah, it's fun to 205 00:10:24,156 --> 00:10:25,156 Speaker 1: read about. 206 00:10:25,756 --> 00:10:26,596 Speaker 2: We can't manage it. 207 00:10:26,676 --> 00:10:29,636 Speaker 1: And a lot of us only have the mental bandwidth 208 00:10:29,636 --> 00:10:32,116 Speaker 1: even day to day to introduce small changes in our 209 00:10:32,156 --> 00:10:35,796 Speaker 1: lives given our other responsibilities. And I think I share 210 00:10:35,836 --> 00:10:38,756 Speaker 1: some very similar personality traits to you, and that you know, 211 00:10:38,876 --> 00:10:41,756 Speaker 1: I'm a creature of habit, I like routine. I'm not 212 00:10:41,956 --> 00:10:45,116 Speaker 1: actually seeking a revolutionary, big change in my life. I 213 00:10:45,156 --> 00:10:47,156 Speaker 1: don't think that's actually constant with with who I am. 214 00:10:47,196 --> 00:10:51,036 Speaker 1: And so the idea of looking within our own spaces 215 00:10:51,116 --> 00:10:53,236 Speaker 1: to try to find more joy or more happiness, I 216 00:10:53,276 --> 00:10:55,916 Speaker 1: think is for someone like me anyway, and for lots 217 00:10:55,916 --> 00:10:57,436 Speaker 1: of folks who are listening to this who have like 218 00:10:57,516 --> 00:10:59,676 Speaker 1: really busy, active lives and not that much freedom to 219 00:10:59,676 --> 00:11:02,636 Speaker 1: explore other spaces, I think that can be a huge 220 00:11:02,636 --> 00:11:03,516 Speaker 1: source of inspiration. 221 00:11:04,196 --> 00:11:07,196 Speaker 2: So I think that we need to think of things 222 00:11:07,196 --> 00:11:10,116 Speaker 2: that are manageable that we can do as part of 223 00:11:10,116 --> 00:11:12,596 Speaker 2: our ordinary day, things that are concrete, so they're not 224 00:11:12,636 --> 00:11:14,996 Speaker 2: things like I'm going to eat healthier, because it's like, 225 00:11:15,236 --> 00:11:17,756 Speaker 2: what does that mean exactly? Does it mean you're gonna 226 00:11:18,396 --> 00:11:20,156 Speaker 2: not eat out of ending machines? Does it mean you're 227 00:11:20,156 --> 00:11:22,196 Speaker 2: going to cook more? Does it mean that you're going 228 00:11:22,236 --> 00:11:24,276 Speaker 2: to start eating breakfast. Does it mean that you're going 229 00:11:24,316 --> 00:11:26,236 Speaker 2: to start packing a lunch to bring from home. Does 230 00:11:26,276 --> 00:11:28,236 Speaker 2: it mean that you're not going to get take out? Like? 231 00:11:28,276 --> 00:11:29,916 Speaker 2: What does that mean for you? There's a million things 232 00:11:29,956 --> 00:11:32,636 Speaker 2: that could mean. What exactly is the specific habit that 233 00:11:32,676 --> 00:11:36,236 Speaker 2: you're wanting to do and make it manageable and really 234 00:11:36,276 --> 00:11:40,196 Speaker 2: find a way to make it part of your day 235 00:11:40,236 --> 00:11:42,436 Speaker 2: to day. But one of the things I think that 236 00:11:42,556 --> 00:11:45,476 Speaker 2: is really interesting is that you also want to consider 237 00:11:45,596 --> 00:11:48,516 Speaker 2: a lot of different ways for you to achieve your aims. 238 00:11:48,596 --> 00:11:50,436 Speaker 2: I think sometimes we want somebody to say like, this 239 00:11:50,516 --> 00:11:51,956 Speaker 2: is the right way to do it, or this is 240 00:11:52,516 --> 00:11:54,836 Speaker 2: the most effective way to do it. But the problem 241 00:11:54,916 --> 00:11:57,516 Speaker 2: is is that people are really different, even with something 242 00:11:57,556 --> 00:12:01,036 Speaker 2: like morning people and night people. If you want to exercise, say, 243 00:12:01,236 --> 00:12:02,916 Speaker 2: somebody might say to you like I get up every 244 00:12:02,956 --> 00:12:04,956 Speaker 2: morning and go for a run before work and that 245 00:12:05,036 --> 00:12:07,436 Speaker 2: works great, you should do that, and you're just like, oh, 246 00:12:07,476 --> 00:12:10,556 Speaker 2: I'm going to and then you just can't. It just 247 00:12:10,596 --> 00:12:12,396 Speaker 2: doesn't work for you. Yeah, a lot of times people 248 00:12:12,476 --> 00:12:14,356 Speaker 2: get discouraged and I think, well, what's wrong with me? 249 00:12:14,476 --> 00:12:17,796 Speaker 2: Because my partner, my neighbor, or my coworker can do 250 00:12:17,836 --> 00:12:21,356 Speaker 2: this no problem, instead of saying something like, well, maybe 251 00:12:21,436 --> 00:12:23,476 Speaker 2: I'm a night person and I'm at my most productive 252 00:12:23,476 --> 00:12:25,756 Speaker 2: and energetic later in the day, or maybe I need 253 00:12:25,796 --> 00:12:29,436 Speaker 2: accountability and this other person doesn't really need accountability, and 254 00:12:29,476 --> 00:12:31,116 Speaker 2: so if I want to do this, I'll do much 255 00:12:31,116 --> 00:12:32,556 Speaker 2: better if I go with a friend who's going to 256 00:12:32,596 --> 00:12:33,956 Speaker 2: be annoyed if I don't show up, or if I 257 00:12:33,996 --> 00:12:36,476 Speaker 2: exercise with a trainer, or I think about how I 258 00:12:36,516 --> 00:12:39,196 Speaker 2: need to be a role model for someone else because 259 00:12:39,236 --> 00:12:41,796 Speaker 2: I need that accountability to get myself to stick to it. 260 00:12:42,236 --> 00:12:44,076 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I think one of the reasons I 261 00:12:44,156 --> 00:12:46,796 Speaker 1: was so excited to talk with you today, Gretchen, is 262 00:12:46,796 --> 00:12:49,636 Speaker 1: that a huge inspiration in creating a site change of 263 00:12:49,676 --> 00:12:53,116 Speaker 1: plans was an appreciation that there is no one size 264 00:12:53,156 --> 00:12:58,156 Speaker 1: fits all approach to managing change or happiness, right, and that, Yeah, 265 00:12:58,236 --> 00:13:01,756 Speaker 1: it's so important to figure out how we will engage 266 00:13:01,756 --> 00:13:05,876 Speaker 1: with a change based on our unique set of personality traits. Yes, 267 00:13:06,276 --> 00:13:09,116 Speaker 1: and so I see similarities in what I've just described 268 00:13:09,236 --> 00:13:13,196 Speaker 1: in your approach, which is identifying core features of your personality. 269 00:13:13,196 --> 00:13:15,836 Speaker 1: You call them tendencies, and then you can try to 270 00:13:15,836 --> 00:13:19,476 Speaker 1: figure out, Okay, given that I have these tendencies, how 271 00:13:19,476 --> 00:13:22,716 Speaker 1: can I then, you know, engineer solutions, specific tailored solutions 272 00:13:22,716 --> 00:13:23,476 Speaker 1: within my own life. 273 00:13:23,676 --> 00:13:26,356 Speaker 2: Yes, I think there is no one size fit cell solution. 274 00:13:26,436 --> 00:13:29,996 Speaker 2: It's you know, birds, bats and bees all fly, but 275 00:13:30,076 --> 00:13:32,636 Speaker 2: they have different kinds of wings so they can all 276 00:13:32,636 --> 00:13:34,436 Speaker 2: get up into the air, but you know, they use 277 00:13:34,436 --> 00:13:36,876 Speaker 2: different tools to do it. And I think people are 278 00:13:36,876 --> 00:13:37,276 Speaker 2: the same. 279 00:13:38,036 --> 00:13:41,316 Speaker 1: After the break, Gretchen shares the four personality types she's 280 00:13:41,356 --> 00:13:45,236 Speaker 1: identified in her work, what she calls the four tendencies. 281 00:13:45,996 --> 00:13:49,036 Speaker 1: Then she explains how understanding your tendency can help you 282 00:13:49,076 --> 00:13:55,516 Speaker 1: become happier. We'll be back in a moment with a 283 00:13:55,556 --> 00:14:08,196 Speaker 1: slight change of plans. Do you mind giving listeners an 284 00:14:08,196 --> 00:14:11,636 Speaker 1: overview of or framework, namely the four tendencies? 285 00:14:11,996 --> 00:14:17,236 Speaker 2: Sure? So this divides people into upholders, questioners, obligers, and rebels. 286 00:14:17,276 --> 00:14:19,716 Speaker 2: And I'll describe it briefly. But if somebody wants to 287 00:14:19,756 --> 00:14:22,156 Speaker 2: take a quiz and like get a report and an answer, 288 00:14:22,156 --> 00:14:24,396 Speaker 2: because I know some people love a quiz and an answer, 289 00:14:24,876 --> 00:14:26,916 Speaker 2: you can go to Gretchen Ruben dot com slash four 290 00:14:27,076 --> 00:14:30,236 Speaker 2: Tendencies Foure Tendencies and it will. It's like three and 291 00:14:30,276 --> 00:14:32,076 Speaker 2: a half million people have taken this quiz. It's free, 292 00:14:32,076 --> 00:14:34,316 Speaker 2: it's quick. But I'll just describe it, and I think 293 00:14:34,316 --> 00:14:36,516 Speaker 2: your listeners will know what they are. Sure, So, what 294 00:14:36,636 --> 00:14:39,436 Speaker 2: it's looking at is something very narrow but significant, which 295 00:14:39,476 --> 00:14:43,916 Speaker 2: is how you respond to expectations, outer expectations like a 296 00:14:43,956 --> 00:14:47,956 Speaker 2: work deadline, and inner expectations like your own desire to 297 00:14:47,996 --> 00:14:53,476 Speaker 2: keep a new year's resolution. So upholders readily meet outer 298 00:14:53,836 --> 00:14:56,916 Speaker 2: and inner expectations. They meet the work deadline, they keep 299 00:14:56,956 --> 00:14:59,716 Speaker 2: the near's resolution without much fuss. They want to know 300 00:14:59,756 --> 00:15:02,356 Speaker 2: what other people expect from them, but their expectations for 301 00:15:02,396 --> 00:15:06,476 Speaker 2: themselves are just as important. So their motto is discipline 302 00:15:06,516 --> 00:15:11,556 Speaker 2: is my freedom. Then there are questions. Questioners question all expectations. 303 00:15:11,836 --> 00:15:13,876 Speaker 2: They'll do something if they think it makes sense, So 304 00:15:13,876 --> 00:15:17,476 Speaker 2: they're making everything an inner expectation. They meet inner expectations, 305 00:15:17,476 --> 00:15:20,636 Speaker 2: they resist outer expectations. They don't like anything that they 306 00:15:20,636 --> 00:15:24,996 Speaker 2: think is arbitrary, ineffective, unjustified. They're always looking for reasons, 307 00:15:25,436 --> 00:15:29,636 Speaker 2: and so their motto is all comply if you convince me. Why. 308 00:15:30,396 --> 00:15:33,676 Speaker 2: Then there are obligers, and this is the biggest tendency 309 00:15:33,796 --> 00:15:37,076 Speaker 2: for both men and women. Obligers readily meet outer expectations, 310 00:15:37,076 --> 00:15:39,756 Speaker 2: but they struggle to meet inner expectations. So these are 311 00:15:39,756 --> 00:15:42,876 Speaker 2: people who say, I don't understand why I can keep 312 00:15:42,876 --> 00:15:45,116 Speaker 2: my promises to other people, but I don't keep my 313 00:15:45,156 --> 00:15:49,436 Speaker 2: promises to myself. So their motto is you can count 314 00:15:49,476 --> 00:15:52,316 Speaker 2: on me, and I'm counting on you to count on me. 315 00:15:53,236 --> 00:15:57,156 Speaker 2: And then finally rebels. Rebels resist all expectations out or 316 00:15:57,156 --> 00:15:59,236 Speaker 2: an inter alike. They want to do what they want 317 00:15:59,276 --> 00:16:01,436 Speaker 2: to do in their own way, in their own time. 318 00:16:01,876 --> 00:16:04,156 Speaker 2: They can do anything they want to do, anything they 319 00:16:04,316 --> 00:16:06,436 Speaker 2: choose to do. But if you ask or tell them 320 00:16:06,476 --> 00:16:09,276 Speaker 2: to do something, they are very likely to resist, and 321 00:16:09,316 --> 00:16:12,036 Speaker 2: typically they don't tell themselves what to do. So their 322 00:16:12,116 --> 00:16:16,676 Speaker 2: motto is you can't make me, and neither cannot. So 323 00:16:16,796 --> 00:16:18,556 Speaker 2: those are the four tendencies. 324 00:16:18,916 --> 00:16:21,596 Speaker 1: Okay, So let's say that someone has identified what their 325 00:16:21,636 --> 00:16:24,356 Speaker 1: tendency is, right, yes, can you give just a couple 326 00:16:24,476 --> 00:16:26,596 Speaker 1: of illustrations of ways that they might be able to 327 00:16:26,636 --> 00:16:28,756 Speaker 1: apply that to their own life in order to see 328 00:16:28,876 --> 00:16:31,276 Speaker 1: greater happiness or change or whatever their goals are. 329 00:16:31,396 --> 00:16:34,876 Speaker 2: Absolutely. So let's say that someone wants the habit of exercising, 330 00:16:34,916 --> 00:16:37,076 Speaker 2: because that's a very common habit that people like because 331 00:16:37,076 --> 00:16:39,756 Speaker 2: they know it makes them happier and more energized and 332 00:16:39,796 --> 00:16:41,796 Speaker 2: sleep better. So let's say you're an obliger. That's the 333 00:16:41,836 --> 00:16:44,316 Speaker 2: biggest tendency you need out our accountability. So you just 334 00:16:44,356 --> 00:16:45,876 Speaker 2: need to figure out how to get that if you're 335 00:16:45,916 --> 00:16:48,676 Speaker 2: a questioner. Questioners are good at forming habits once they 336 00:16:48,716 --> 00:16:50,356 Speaker 2: decide that's what they want. And if you see a 337 00:16:50,436 --> 00:16:53,076 Speaker 2: questioner who's sort of stalled out and says they want 338 00:16:53,116 --> 00:16:55,596 Speaker 2: to form a habit, but it is having trouble even 339 00:16:55,636 --> 00:16:57,676 Speaker 2: though they say, well, I know this is make me happier. 340 00:16:57,996 --> 00:17:00,516 Speaker 2: It's probably because they don't have clarity. They need to 341 00:17:00,596 --> 00:17:03,436 Speaker 2: know why. But it's not just like why would I exercise? 342 00:17:03,516 --> 00:17:05,476 Speaker 2: It's like why am I going to do this kind 343 00:17:05,556 --> 00:17:08,196 Speaker 2: of exercise? Why am I listening to this expert? Why 344 00:17:08,236 --> 00:17:10,276 Speaker 2: am I doing it this way? Why am I doing 345 00:17:10,316 --> 00:17:13,356 Speaker 2: it at this time of day. The more clarity they have, 346 00:17:13,516 --> 00:17:16,196 Speaker 2: the more their questions are answered, the more they will 347 00:17:16,196 --> 00:17:19,516 Speaker 2: have that feeling of like, oh, this makes sense. I'm 348 00:17:19,556 --> 00:17:25,476 Speaker 2: in for rebels. Rebels do not tend to have good 349 00:17:25,596 --> 00:17:29,596 Speaker 2: luck with things like scheduling. They tend not to like accountability, 350 00:17:29,756 --> 00:17:32,476 Speaker 2: they don't like somebody looking over their shoulders. So a 351 00:17:32,476 --> 00:17:34,796 Speaker 2: lot of things that work for other tendencies don't work 352 00:17:34,836 --> 00:17:37,236 Speaker 2: as well for rebels. So if a rebel wanted to 353 00:17:37,276 --> 00:17:39,956 Speaker 2: do this, I would say, one, think about your identity, 354 00:17:40,196 --> 00:17:42,876 Speaker 2: because identity is such an important value to rebels. I'm 355 00:17:42,876 --> 00:17:46,196 Speaker 2: a person who who has a strong, healthy, active body, 356 00:17:46,556 --> 00:17:48,756 Speaker 2: or I love to travel and to travel like, I 357 00:17:48,756 --> 00:17:50,516 Speaker 2: got to be in good shape if I want to 358 00:17:50,556 --> 00:17:53,076 Speaker 2: climb mountains, if I want to get on, you know, 359 00:17:53,196 --> 00:17:55,236 Speaker 2: a bus in the middle of a foreign country, I 360 00:17:55,716 --> 00:17:57,796 Speaker 2: gotta bring that strength. And so of course I'm an 361 00:17:57,796 --> 00:18:00,756 Speaker 2: exercise that's like part of who I am. Or it's 362 00:18:00,796 --> 00:18:02,716 Speaker 2: like I'm going to go exercising in the middle of 363 00:18:02,756 --> 00:18:04,916 Speaker 2: the day when I'm supposed to be working because I'm 364 00:18:04,916 --> 00:18:07,236 Speaker 2: not staying behind a screen and you can't make me, 365 00:18:07,396 --> 00:18:09,636 Speaker 2: you know. Or they might like a challenge rebels off 366 00:18:09,636 --> 00:18:11,516 Speaker 2: and love a challenge. Hey, you think I can't run 367 00:18:11,516 --> 00:18:14,836 Speaker 2: a marathon, watch me. That is what I have learned 368 00:18:14,996 --> 00:18:18,596 Speaker 2: from rebels as an upholder, which is my tenancy. And 369 00:18:18,636 --> 00:18:21,596 Speaker 2: so for upholders, I have to say, habits come more 370 00:18:21,596 --> 00:18:25,156 Speaker 2: easily to upholders. They tend to like calendars, they like 371 00:18:25,196 --> 00:18:29,756 Speaker 2: to do lists, they like execution, they like planning, and 372 00:18:29,796 --> 00:18:32,516 Speaker 2: so they tend to find a lot of satisfaction in that. 373 00:18:33,076 --> 00:18:36,876 Speaker 2: This is also why upholders should be aware that others 374 00:18:36,996 --> 00:18:40,636 Speaker 2: often do not find it as easy and satisfying to 375 00:18:40,756 --> 00:18:43,356 Speaker 2: do the things that upholders do. Upholders often think, hey, 376 00:18:43,436 --> 00:18:46,116 Speaker 2: look it works for me, Just give it the program, 377 00:18:46,196 --> 00:18:47,836 Speaker 2: do what I do, and you'll be it'll work for you. 378 00:18:47,916 --> 00:18:50,196 Speaker 2: And it's like, no, it won't, because we're all different. 379 00:18:50,236 --> 00:18:52,076 Speaker 2: We all have to figure out what works for us. 380 00:18:53,036 --> 00:18:55,836 Speaker 1: So I'm curious question. I know. I mean, I've only 381 00:18:55,876 --> 00:18:58,476 Speaker 1: had the joy for company for some short number of minutes. 382 00:18:58,476 --> 00:19:01,516 Speaker 1: At this point, however, a little challenge for you. I 383 00:19:01,516 --> 00:19:02,996 Speaker 1: know you're an uholder, not a rebel, but I'm going 384 00:19:03,036 --> 00:19:05,316 Speaker 1: to give you a challenge anyway. So, Okay, I took 385 00:19:05,356 --> 00:19:07,516 Speaker 1: your quiz, and I'm curious to know if you can guess, 386 00:19:07,556 --> 00:19:09,676 Speaker 1: based on the very limited data you have about me 387 00:19:09,756 --> 00:19:11,796 Speaker 1: so far, which tendency I fell into. 388 00:19:12,116 --> 00:19:15,796 Speaker 2: Well, can I ask you how you feel about year's resolutions? 389 00:19:16,356 --> 00:19:19,636 Speaker 1: Yeah? I like new yer's resolutions. I feel emboldened by them, 390 00:19:19,876 --> 00:19:22,156 Speaker 1: and I usually try and take advantage of them. 391 00:19:22,636 --> 00:19:24,836 Speaker 2: Do people ever tell you that you're too rigid or 392 00:19:24,836 --> 00:19:29,676 Speaker 2: that you should be more spontaneous? No? Do people ever 393 00:19:29,676 --> 00:19:33,636 Speaker 2: tell you that you ask too many questions? Yes? Okay, 394 00:19:33,716 --> 00:19:35,956 Speaker 2: well you're leading me to think that you're a questioner 395 00:19:35,956 --> 00:19:39,636 Speaker 2: who tips to upholder. That's what That's what I'm thinking now. 396 00:19:40,116 --> 00:19:45,916 Speaker 1: Yes, so I am a questioner, but I will say 397 00:19:45,916 --> 00:19:47,996 Speaker 1: when filling out the quiz. One challenge I faced is 398 00:19:48,036 --> 00:19:51,316 Speaker 1: that depending on like the hat that I was wearing. Yeah, 399 00:19:51,356 --> 00:19:53,636 Speaker 1: I know this is a very meta and very ironic. 400 00:19:53,876 --> 00:19:56,676 Speaker 2: Okay, now you're going deep into questionner because questionners often 401 00:19:56,716 --> 00:19:59,676 Speaker 2: say I can't answer the quiz because and then they 402 00:19:59,716 --> 00:20:02,356 Speaker 2: go into like all the distinctions and like how this 403 00:20:02,476 --> 00:20:04,396 Speaker 2: and how that, and they're one of each thing, and 404 00:20:04,556 --> 00:20:06,636 Speaker 2: but I won't put you through that. No, But but 405 00:20:06,676 --> 00:20:10,236 Speaker 2: it's actually interesting because it is very much a question 406 00:20:10,396 --> 00:20:13,156 Speaker 2: or response. Yeah, and so that is making me think 407 00:20:13,796 --> 00:20:15,916 Speaker 2: just even being like I question the validity of this 408 00:20:15,996 --> 00:20:18,596 Speaker 2: framework or like you know, what about selection bias, like 409 00:20:18,676 --> 00:20:21,316 Speaker 2: you know, these kinds of like questions. This is why 410 00:20:21,316 --> 00:20:24,196 Speaker 2: the questioner tendency is so valuable, because these questions are 411 00:20:24,196 --> 00:20:24,916 Speaker 2: really valuable. 412 00:20:25,116 --> 00:20:27,036 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I just I was finding that depending on 413 00:20:27,076 --> 00:20:29,116 Speaker 1: the hat that I put on when answering, when going 414 00:20:29,156 --> 00:20:32,036 Speaker 1: through the quiz, I could be an obliger in certain 415 00:20:32,356 --> 00:20:34,276 Speaker 1: contexts in my life, and I was more of a 416 00:20:34,356 --> 00:20:37,516 Speaker 1: rebel in other areas of my life. Yeah, I definitely 417 00:20:37,556 --> 00:20:41,236 Speaker 1: feel like there's a lot of malleability depending on the 418 00:20:41,356 --> 00:20:44,276 Speaker 1: context in which I'm operating. So if listeners go in 419 00:20:44,316 --> 00:20:47,236 Speaker 1: and take the quiz and they don't like what they find, 420 00:20:47,276 --> 00:20:49,356 Speaker 1: and I know you said you shouldn't assign. You know, 421 00:20:49,356 --> 00:20:51,836 Speaker 1: there's no rank order on what head you are, right, 422 00:20:51,996 --> 00:20:54,316 Speaker 1: you just are what you are. In terms of the 423 00:20:54,316 --> 00:20:56,476 Speaker 1: research and psychology un change, it can be really helpful 424 00:20:56,516 --> 00:20:59,116 Speaker 1: to have a growth mindset around things right. It can 425 00:20:59,156 --> 00:21:01,916 Speaker 1: also be helpful to not put too strong a label 426 00:21:01,956 --> 00:21:04,596 Speaker 1: on oneself because we know from identity priming research that 427 00:21:04,636 --> 00:21:07,476 Speaker 1: we will act in ways that align with our social identities. 428 00:21:08,116 --> 00:21:11,956 Speaker 1: And so do you see that there is sufficient malleability 429 00:21:12,916 --> 00:21:15,876 Speaker 1: at least like a spectrum within each category and that 430 00:21:15,916 --> 00:21:19,076 Speaker 1: you can at least aspire to possess some of the 431 00:21:19,116 --> 00:21:21,476 Speaker 1: other traits that you see in the other domains. If 432 00:21:21,516 --> 00:21:24,156 Speaker 1: that's what people desire, I wouldn't think about it as 433 00:21:24,236 --> 00:21:27,276 Speaker 1: trying to be like the other tendencies. I'm trying to 434 00:21:27,276 --> 00:21:30,316 Speaker 1: get what I want. I'm trying to achieve my aim. 435 00:21:30,716 --> 00:21:33,956 Speaker 1: How do I achieve my aim as an obliger? How 436 00:21:33,956 --> 00:21:36,356 Speaker 1: can I use the tools that work for obligers so 437 00:21:36,396 --> 00:21:38,076 Speaker 1: I can get where I want? Because if somebody were 438 00:21:38,076 --> 00:21:39,796 Speaker 1: to say what I really want to be as an upholder, 439 00:21:39,996 --> 00:21:41,636 Speaker 1: what they're really saying is, I think it would be 440 00:21:41,676 --> 00:21:43,316 Speaker 1: easier for me to achieve my aims if I were 441 00:21:43,316 --> 00:21:44,956 Speaker 1: an upholder, or I think it would be easier to 442 00:21:44,996 --> 00:21:46,676 Speaker 1: achieve my aims if I were a questionner, or I 443 00:21:46,716 --> 00:21:48,076 Speaker 1: think I could have the life I want if I 444 00:21:48,116 --> 00:21:50,676 Speaker 1: were a rebel. So it's more like, you get what 445 00:21:50,756 --> 00:21:52,796 Speaker 1: you get and you don't get upset, and you'll work 446 00:21:52,836 --> 00:21:55,156 Speaker 1: with it and then you get where you're trying to go. 447 00:21:55,516 --> 00:21:57,996 Speaker 1: Because I think people do get very distracted by wishing 448 00:21:57,996 --> 00:22:00,516 Speaker 1: they were different from the way they were, So I 449 00:22:00,516 --> 00:22:02,996 Speaker 1: think to clarify my question, I think it's less about 450 00:22:03,396 --> 00:22:06,996 Speaker 1: wanting to be another tendency and more that you might find. 451 00:22:07,196 --> 00:22:09,556 Speaker 1: For example, let's say that you are an upholder. Yes, okay, 452 00:22:09,556 --> 00:22:11,076 Speaker 1: which I am, and you're like, you know what I 453 00:22:11,076 --> 00:22:14,076 Speaker 1: do feel like in my professional life, the fact that 454 00:22:14,156 --> 00:22:17,676 Speaker 1: I'm so rule bound is actually hurting me, hindering me 455 00:22:17,756 --> 00:22:20,116 Speaker 1: in some way, and that if I could cultivate a 456 00:22:20,156 --> 00:22:22,316 Speaker 1: little bit more of a rebel spirit so that I 457 00:22:22,356 --> 00:22:25,116 Speaker 1: saw the constraints of my work in a more flexible way, 458 00:22:25,236 --> 00:22:27,476 Speaker 1: I saw less red tape day to day, I was 459 00:22:27,476 --> 00:22:29,956 Speaker 1: more willing to speak up to my boss. That would 460 00:22:29,996 --> 00:22:32,556 Speaker 1: be a trait from the rebel category. Doesn't mean that 461 00:22:32,596 --> 00:22:34,476 Speaker 1: I'm trying to be a rebel or pretend that I 462 00:22:34,476 --> 00:22:37,516 Speaker 1: can be a rebel fully in that category, But more 463 00:22:37,916 --> 00:22:40,756 Speaker 1: I see traits in other spaces where if I were 464 00:22:40,796 --> 00:22:43,436 Speaker 1: to cultivate that I would be better off right, I 465 00:22:43,436 --> 00:22:45,596 Speaker 1: would end up being happier reaching my goals. 466 00:22:45,796 --> 00:22:47,796 Speaker 2: I think that's a much better way to frame it 467 00:22:47,836 --> 00:22:50,076 Speaker 2: than saying I want to be a rebel. And that's 468 00:22:50,116 --> 00:22:51,236 Speaker 2: what I hear from a lot of people. A lot 469 00:22:51,236 --> 00:22:53,316 Speaker 2: of people are just very categorically, I don't want to 470 00:22:53,356 --> 00:22:55,756 Speaker 2: be my tendency. Tell me how to get to another tendency. 471 00:22:55,996 --> 00:22:58,556 Speaker 2: The way you're saying is very helpful, which is, each 472 00:22:58,556 --> 00:23:01,916 Speaker 2: of these have weaknesses and limitations that are kind of 473 00:23:01,956 --> 00:23:05,516 Speaker 2: complemented by a strength and another tendency. So how can 474 00:23:05,556 --> 00:23:07,836 Speaker 2: you mindfully think about, well, how could I bring that 475 00:23:07,916 --> 00:23:11,036 Speaker 2: in so exactly point as an upholder, that is, you 476 00:23:11,156 --> 00:23:14,916 Speaker 2: describe exactly what I face. Sometimes I'm too eager to 477 00:23:14,956 --> 00:23:17,636 Speaker 2: meet an expectation. I too much follow the rules. So 478 00:23:17,676 --> 00:23:19,916 Speaker 2: I learn from questioners and I think, well, why would 479 00:23:19,956 --> 00:23:23,196 Speaker 2: I do this? What's the point of this? Why am 480 00:23:23,236 --> 00:23:25,636 Speaker 2: I going to meet this expectation? Or a rebel like 481 00:23:25,756 --> 00:23:28,396 Speaker 2: I can choose, I'm free here, like does this work 482 00:23:28,396 --> 00:23:30,276 Speaker 2: for me? Do I feel like doing this or not? 483 00:23:30,836 --> 00:23:32,556 Speaker 2: So I think you're exactly right. I think we can 484 00:23:32,756 --> 00:23:36,476 Speaker 2: study and learn from the strengths of the other tendencies. 485 00:23:36,796 --> 00:23:38,436 Speaker 1: Yeah, I completely agree. I mean, I think it's just 486 00:23:38,516 --> 00:23:41,236 Speaker 1: great to be exploratory in this space and basically to 487 00:23:41,316 --> 00:23:43,796 Speaker 1: learn whatever you can from each you know, see what 488 00:23:43,836 --> 00:23:47,116 Speaker 1: can benefit you. Look, there's lots of psychological models out there, 489 00:23:47,156 --> 00:23:49,876 Speaker 1: lots of ways of divving up personality, and I think 490 00:23:49,916 --> 00:23:52,436 Speaker 1: it's productive to engage with many of them and to 491 00:23:52,476 --> 00:23:53,716 Speaker 1: figure out. I mean, in the same way that we 492 00:23:53,836 --> 00:23:58,356 Speaker 1: might have idiosyncratic preferences around habit formation, what motivates us, 493 00:23:58,436 --> 00:24:00,516 Speaker 1: or the way in which we need to structure incentives 494 00:24:00,556 --> 00:24:03,476 Speaker 1: in our lives, different frameworks might resonate more or less with. 495 00:24:03,476 --> 00:24:05,116 Speaker 2: Us one hundred percent. 496 00:24:06,716 --> 00:24:09,716 Speaker 1: One thing I love, Gretchen is that you you know, 497 00:24:09,716 --> 00:24:12,836 Speaker 1: I think there's a criticism and a happiness face around. 498 00:24:12,956 --> 00:24:15,796 Speaker 1: The more time we spend thinking about it, the worst 499 00:24:15,796 --> 00:24:19,556 Speaker 1: off we are. Happiness is this elusive thing, and it's 500 00:24:19,556 --> 00:24:23,476 Speaker 1: counterproductive to indulge too much in happiness thinking. And you 501 00:24:23,636 --> 00:24:26,156 Speaker 1: counter that, right, You say, no, I don't quite think 502 00:24:26,196 --> 00:24:29,116 Speaker 1: that's right. So do you mind sharing a bit more 503 00:24:29,156 --> 00:24:29,516 Speaker 1: about that? 504 00:24:30,556 --> 00:24:32,876 Speaker 2: You're exactly right. I think it was John Stuart Mills 505 00:24:32,916 --> 00:24:34,836 Speaker 2: who said, ask yourself if you are happy, and you 506 00:24:34,836 --> 00:24:36,716 Speaker 2: shall cease to be so kind of this idea that 507 00:24:36,756 --> 00:24:39,516 Speaker 2: we were going to all trip our own feet but yeah, 508 00:24:39,556 --> 00:24:41,516 Speaker 2: my view is that we're much more likely to hit 509 00:24:41,516 --> 00:24:43,796 Speaker 2: a target if we aim at it, And in my 510 00:24:43,916 --> 00:24:47,316 Speaker 2: observation with happiness, it's not most people. The issue isn't 511 00:24:47,356 --> 00:24:49,476 Speaker 2: that they think about it too much, but they're like 512 00:24:49,556 --> 00:24:51,396 Speaker 2: me and they hardly think about it at all. You know, 513 00:24:51,476 --> 00:24:54,396 Speaker 2: they're in the busyness of everyday life. It's sometimes hard 514 00:24:54,436 --> 00:24:56,556 Speaker 2: to step back and ask ourselves a big question like 515 00:24:57,196 --> 00:25:00,156 Speaker 2: am I making enough time for friends? Am I yelling 516 00:25:00,156 --> 00:25:03,076 Speaker 2: at my kids too much? Are my habits kind of 517 00:25:03,236 --> 00:25:06,756 Speaker 2: slowly chipping away at my health? And do I need 518 00:25:06,836 --> 00:25:09,396 Speaker 2: to do something about that? I've been me need to 519 00:25:09,476 --> 00:25:13,076 Speaker 2: volunteer for like five years now, Am I ever going 520 00:25:13,116 --> 00:25:15,396 Speaker 2: to do anything about that? I know that I should, 521 00:25:15,556 --> 00:25:18,236 Speaker 2: and somehow the day never feels right. And so I 522 00:25:18,236 --> 00:25:21,956 Speaker 2: think that by really saying what would make me happier? 523 00:25:22,076 --> 00:25:23,956 Speaker 2: What could I do as part of my ordinary day? 524 00:25:24,236 --> 00:25:27,356 Speaker 2: And so I think that for happiness, it is really 525 00:25:27,396 --> 00:25:30,916 Speaker 2: helpful to think about it and to try to find 526 00:25:30,956 --> 00:25:34,396 Speaker 2: ways within our ordinary days to make those changes, which 527 00:25:34,396 --> 00:25:38,356 Speaker 2: are often not that demanding and really can give us 528 00:25:38,396 --> 00:25:39,676 Speaker 2: a surprising change. 529 00:25:40,436 --> 00:25:44,156 Speaker 1: You said that, of course, there are very personality specific 530 00:25:44,196 --> 00:25:47,316 Speaker 1: recommendations around happiness yes, but for listeners who are just 531 00:25:47,316 --> 00:25:49,196 Speaker 1: getting their feet wet, let's just give them a little 532 00:25:49,236 --> 00:25:50,036 Speaker 1: bit to warm them up. 533 00:25:50,116 --> 00:25:51,436 Speaker 2: So, if you were going to say what are the 534 00:25:51,556 --> 00:25:55,596 Speaker 2: keys to happiness, one would be relationships. Ancient philosophers and 535 00:25:55,636 --> 00:25:58,636 Speaker 2: contemporary scientists agree that to be happy, you have to 536 00:25:58,756 --> 00:26:02,396 Speaker 2: have strong, enduring bonds. You need to feel like you 537 00:26:02,436 --> 00:26:05,516 Speaker 2: can confide, you have to feel like you belong. You 538 00:26:05,596 --> 00:26:07,396 Speaker 2: have to be able to get support, and just as 539 00:26:07,436 --> 00:26:09,756 Speaker 2: important for happiness, you need to be able to give support. 540 00:26:09,916 --> 00:26:13,356 Speaker 2: So that's one kind of rule of them. Another rule 541 00:26:13,356 --> 00:26:15,596 Speaker 2: of them is it's always helpful to start by thinking 542 00:26:15,636 --> 00:26:19,236 Speaker 2: about your own body because our physical experience always colors 543 00:26:19,236 --> 00:26:22,356 Speaker 2: our emotional experience. And when we feel energy, when we 544 00:26:22,396 --> 00:26:24,596 Speaker 2: feel good in our bodies, that makes it a lot 545 00:26:24,636 --> 00:26:26,876 Speaker 2: easier to do all the other things that we know 546 00:26:26,916 --> 00:26:29,516 Speaker 2: would make us happier. But if we are feeling drained, 547 00:26:29,636 --> 00:26:32,836 Speaker 2: if we are feeling overwhelmed, if we are feeling just exhausted, 548 00:26:33,356 --> 00:26:36,996 Speaker 2: it is very hard to do something even if you 549 00:26:37,036 --> 00:26:39,396 Speaker 2: know it would make you happier, because you just don't 550 00:26:39,436 --> 00:26:42,196 Speaker 2: feel like you can muster up the wherewithal to do it. 551 00:26:42,396 --> 00:26:45,516 Speaker 2: So that's things like give yourself a bedtime, or like 552 00:26:45,636 --> 00:26:49,476 Speaker 2: exercises like a magical elixir where it both energizes us 553 00:26:49,796 --> 00:26:53,076 Speaker 2: but it also calms us down. And so thinking about Okay, 554 00:26:53,116 --> 00:26:55,516 Speaker 2: I'm going to think about my body, my energy, my exercise. 555 00:26:55,676 --> 00:26:57,796 Speaker 2: And another thing to think about is like maybe you 556 00:26:57,836 --> 00:27:01,836 Speaker 2: want to think about having some fun like something that 557 00:27:01,876 --> 00:27:05,196 Speaker 2: you truly anticipate with pleasure, something that you do not 558 00:27:05,276 --> 00:27:07,636 Speaker 2: look back on with regret. So this isn't something that's 559 00:27:07,716 --> 00:27:10,036 Speaker 2: fun now, but it's not funly, something that you look 560 00:27:10,076 --> 00:27:12,476 Speaker 2: back on with pleasure, something that you see it in 561 00:27:12,516 --> 00:27:15,396 Speaker 2: your calendar and you really feel good about set. And 562 00:27:15,396 --> 00:27:17,996 Speaker 2: this isn't like I know I'll feel better if I 563 00:27:18,036 --> 00:27:20,876 Speaker 2: go to a spin class, but I don't really feel 564 00:27:20,916 --> 00:27:22,276 Speaker 2: like going out. Just know I'm going to feel great after. 565 00:27:22,316 --> 00:27:24,796 Speaker 2: It's like, what are you really looking forward to? Is 566 00:27:24,836 --> 00:27:26,596 Speaker 2: there a book that you've been dying to read? Is 567 00:27:26,636 --> 00:27:28,756 Speaker 2: there a TV show you've been dying to watch? Like 568 00:27:29,556 --> 00:27:33,076 Speaker 2: take the time to do something just to give you 569 00:27:33,076 --> 00:27:35,876 Speaker 2: a little bit of that lightness and playfulness. And the 570 00:27:35,956 --> 00:27:37,316 Speaker 2: last thing I would say is like, one of the 571 00:27:37,316 --> 00:27:40,156 Speaker 2: best ways to be happy is to make other people happy. 572 00:27:40,476 --> 00:27:42,596 Speaker 2: And this is a source of happiness that never fails. 573 00:27:42,676 --> 00:27:44,716 Speaker 2: And I had a friend once who was going through 574 00:27:44,756 --> 00:27:48,316 Speaker 2: a terribly difficult time. She got fired, she got rejected 575 00:27:48,316 --> 00:27:50,556 Speaker 2: from a graduate program, and her boyfriend broke up with her. 576 00:27:50,756 --> 00:27:52,476 Speaker 2: And I said, how did you get through it? And 577 00:27:52,516 --> 00:27:55,756 Speaker 2: she said, I was practically addicted to doing good deeds. 578 00:27:55,876 --> 00:27:58,236 Speaker 2: It was the only thing that kept me going. And 579 00:27:58,276 --> 00:28:02,116 Speaker 2: this is something like, even when you kind of don't 580 00:28:02,156 --> 00:28:03,956 Speaker 2: know what to do, if you do even a small 581 00:28:03,996 --> 00:28:06,516 Speaker 2: good deed, like oh, I told you I would send 582 00:28:06,516 --> 00:28:09,116 Speaker 2: you that recommendation, or I'm going to introduce those to people. 583 00:28:09,196 --> 00:28:11,156 Speaker 2: I'm going to hold the door open for somebody with 584 00:28:11,196 --> 00:28:13,836 Speaker 2: a stroller, or I'm going to donate whatever I can 585 00:28:13,876 --> 00:28:16,316 Speaker 2: afford to an organization who's cause I believe in. And 586 00:28:16,356 --> 00:28:19,796 Speaker 2: sometimes people think like, well, if you do something for 587 00:28:19,876 --> 00:28:21,876 Speaker 2: the benefit of someone else and it makes you happier, 588 00:28:21,876 --> 00:28:24,596 Speaker 2: well it's not really selfless because you're really making yourself happier. 589 00:28:24,596 --> 00:28:27,316 Speaker 2: But I'm like, who cares. It always makes me happy 590 00:28:27,316 --> 00:28:28,796 Speaker 2: to see people doing good in the world, And if 591 00:28:28,796 --> 00:28:31,156 Speaker 2: I'm the person doing good in the world, all the better. 592 00:28:31,556 --> 00:28:59,716 Speaker 2: This is a source of happiness that is good for everyone. 593 00:29:03,676 --> 00:29:06,436 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed my 594 00:29:06,476 --> 00:29:09,436 Speaker 1: conversation with Gretchen. You might also like my episode with 595 00:29:09,436 --> 00:29:14,036 Speaker 1: psychologist Ethan Cross. It's called The Science of Our Inner Voice. 596 00:29:14,276 --> 00:29:17,316 Speaker 1: We'll link to it in the show notes and join 597 00:29:17,396 --> 00:29:20,676 Speaker 1: me next week for a heartfelt conversation with Bennie Rashidi. 598 00:29:21,356 --> 00:29:23,596 Speaker 1: She's a mother whose world was up ended when her 599 00:29:23,636 --> 00:29:37,556 Speaker 1: toddler was given a life changing diagnosis. A Slight Change 600 00:29:37,556 --> 00:29:40,516 Speaker 1: of Plans is created, written, and executive produced by me 601 00:29:40,676 --> 00:29:45,116 Speaker 1: Maya Schunker. The Slight Change family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, 602 00:29:45,596 --> 00:29:50,156 Speaker 1: our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, our producer Trisha Bobida, 603 00:29:50,516 --> 00:29:54,876 Speaker 1: and our sound engineer Andrew Vestola. Louis Scara wrote our 604 00:29:54,876 --> 00:29:58,516 Speaker 1: delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. 605 00:29:59,036 --> 00:30:02,156 Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, 606 00:30:02,316 --> 00:30:05,836 Speaker 1: so big thanks to everyone there, and of course a 607 00:30:05,956 --> 00:30:09,196 Speaker 1: very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A 608 00:30:09,236 --> 00:30:12,316 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. 609 00:30:12,916 --> 00:30:21,436 Speaker 1: See you next week.