1 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: Hey, Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. It is Saturday, so we got a 3 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: vault episode for you here. This is going to be 4 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 1: my interview from seven three, twenty twenty five with author 5 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 1: Sam Keen about the book Dinner with King Tut full 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: title Dinner with King Tut How rogue archaeologist are recreating 7 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: the site sound, smells and Tastes of Lost Civilizations. Really 8 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: cool book. I keep seeing this one at bookstores and 9 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: I always have to point out to my family. I'm like, hey, hey, 10 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 1: I chatted with that person. I do this with any 11 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: book that I see in bookstores where I've interviewed the author. 12 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: It probably gets a little annoying, but I still I 13 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,520 Speaker 1: love these conversations that I get to have with folks, 14 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: and this one was a lot of fun. So let's 15 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 1: jump right in. 16 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of iHeartRadio. 17 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 18 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb, and on today's episode, I'm going to 19 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: be talking with author Sam King whose new book Dinner 20 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 1: with King Tut, How rogue archaeologist are recreating the site sounds, smells, 21 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: and tastes of Lost Civilizations is going to be out 22 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 1: July eighth. This is a terrific book and I really 23 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: enjoyed chatting with Sam here about it. So let's go 24 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: ahead and jump right into the interview. Hi, Sam, Welcome 25 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:37,119 Speaker 1: to the show. 26 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 2: Hi thanks for having me. 27 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 1: So the new book is Dinner with King Tut How 28 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,680 Speaker 1: rogue archaeologist are recreating the site, sounds, smells, and tastes 29 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 1: of Lost Civilizations. This deals with the topic that I've 30 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: found quite exciting for a while now, but I didn't 31 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: realize we had a specific name for it, experimental archaeology. 32 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about experimental archaeology, how and 33 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: to what extent it is different compared to traditional archaeology, 34 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: and how the to get along. 35 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 2: So I always had kind of a I guess a 36 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 2: gripe with regular archaeology in that, on some level it 37 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 2: was the most fascinating subject I could imagine, deals with 38 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 2: the deep history of humankind, where we came from, how 39 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:23,919 Speaker 2: we spread across the globe, the rise of great civilizations, 40 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,359 Speaker 2: all these big meaty questions about history. But whenever I 41 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 2: would go to an actual archaeological site, I always found 42 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 2: it extremely dull. It was just people sitting around in 43 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 2: the dirt, brushing off pot shards or whatever with toothbrushes 44 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 2: dental picks. And it looked the same everywhere around the 45 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 2: world too, no matter what different cultures you were talking about. 46 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 2: So it was always a big disappointment to go to 47 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 2: these sites. And I contrast it in my mind with 48 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 2: experimental archaeology, which when I heard about it, I thought, ooh, 49 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 2: now this is the type of archaeology I like. Essentially, 50 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 2: experimental archaeologist make and do things, so instead of just 51 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 2: digging something up and theorizing it, they actually try to 52 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 2: recreate the past in different ways, and that manifests itself 53 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 2: in all sorts of different ways. Sometimes they're creating ancient 54 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 2: foods and lost recipes. Sometimes they're making ancient tools or weapons, 55 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:23,799 Speaker 2: or recreating medicines, things like that. At different points in 56 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 2: the book, I got to attend an authentic Roman banquet. 57 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 2: I got to spend a day out in Utah with 58 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 2: a guy who had built a giant medieval catapult, and 59 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 2: we spent an afternoon throwing these huge garden stones around. 60 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 2: I got to talk to people who made a human 61 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 2: mummy and Egyptian style mummy of a human in modern times. 62 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 2: They're just all of these different projects that people are doing. 63 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 2: And what really excites me about it is that it's 64 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 2: a very sensory rich version of archaeology in that you 65 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 2: can actually hear what it sounds like when a big 66 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 2: catapult ball slams home into a wall, so you can 67 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 2: taste the food, the sour dough bread, or the beer 68 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 2: that King Tutt would have been. So it really brings 69 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 2: the past alive in a way that to me, traditional 70 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 2: archaeology just could not do. 71 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 1: It kind of gets this halfway at least to Indiana 72 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: Jones territory, I guess. 73 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 2: Just halfway there. Yes, much more than setting around in 74 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 2: the dirt, for sure. 75 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 1: Now, I found it interesting you pointed out that some 76 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 1: traditional archaeologists have been opposed to this sort of thing, 77 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:27,719 Speaker 1: and I guess I was a little surprised by this 78 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: as well, because I know that and we'll get to 79 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:32,280 Speaker 1: some of these examples have encountered some of this work before, 80 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:36,280 Speaker 1: and in some cases it's by very respected archaeologists of 81 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 1: you know, reconstructing tools from ancient times or you know, 82 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 1: creating you know, recreating Greek trirems, that sort of thing. 83 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: But yeah, you outline some of the pushback that experimental 84 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 1: archaeologists have encountered. 85 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, there is a bit of a conflict in the 86 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:57,359 Speaker 2: field with sort of you know, traditional scholarly academic archaeologists 87 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 2: and the people trying to do this new method bit 88 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 2: of archaeology, experimental archaeology. Some of that, I think is 89 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 2: just sort of traditional inertia where people are used to 90 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 2: doing things a certain way. Might be a bit of 91 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 2: a generational gap as well in there too, But some 92 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:15,600 Speaker 2: of it I think is a little bit of resentment 93 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 2: of Sometimes the people I talked to do in the 94 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 2: book weren't traditional archaeologists. They were maybe a brewer or 95 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 2: a chef, or even a hairdresser in one case who 96 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 2: had an interest in history and came in and sort 97 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 2: of proved traditional archaeologists wrong, And I think there was 98 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 2: a bit of resentment about that. They didn't like being 99 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 2: told they were wrong by essentially what they considered an amateur. 100 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 2: So there is a little bit of tension within the 101 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 2: field still, And to be fair, there are examples out 102 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 2: there of bad experimental archaeology where people just didn't take 103 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 2: the time to do it properly the first time. One 104 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 2: good example of that was the person I talked to 105 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 2: who recreated Egyptian bread. His name was Seamus Blackley. He's 106 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 2: best known. Actually he worked at Microsoft and he created 107 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,599 Speaker 2: the Xbox. That's sort of his claim to fame. But 108 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 2: after that he went and founded his own company, and 109 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 2: as a hobby, he decided he wanted to make heirloom bread. 110 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 2: So he started with medieval bread and eventually transitioned into 111 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 2: making Egyptian style bread. And his first attempt, you know, 112 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 2: he just got some yeast, got some basic grain, put 113 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 2: something up there on Twitter, and a lot of people 114 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 2: wrote to him and said, you're full of crap. This 115 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 2: is a terrible, terrible job you did recreating this bread. 116 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 2: And he thought about it, probably got a little mad 117 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 2: at first, but he said, you know what, they're right. 118 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 2: I did a poor job of this. I am going 119 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 2: to now do a proper job of it. So he 120 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 2: flew over to Egypt with a microbiology kit. He started 121 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 2: swabbing the inside of pots to get the actual yeast 122 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 2: from the pots and the molds that they used to 123 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 2: make the bread. He sourced some heirloom grain, he sourced 124 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:00,479 Speaker 2: the kind of wood that they would have used. He 125 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 2: had some one make him an authentic bread mold. He 126 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 2: built a fire pit in his backyard. He kind of 127 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:07,479 Speaker 2: went all out on this, and he got let me 128 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 2: try some of the bread eventually after he had sort 129 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 2: of perfected it, and it was probably the best thing 130 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 2: I ate in the entire book, one of the best 131 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 2: loads of bread I've ever had in my life. So 132 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 2: you do have people kind of doing poor jobs of 133 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 2: this work at the beginning, but in some cases they 134 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 2: learned from that and did much better jobs by the end. 135 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: One quick question about the bread, what did you expect 136 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: it to taste liked? Were you sort of expecting it 137 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: to taste like archaeology to some degree. 138 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 2: Or dusty, like really hard and great? Yeah? I didn't know. 139 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 2: I guess I expected it to be very bland and 140 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 2: very flat. Yeah. I pictured something just very flat, you know, 141 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 2: pretty bland, not much taste to it. I was surprised, 142 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 2: first of all how big it was. It was about 143 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 2: a foot wide, maybe a little bigger even, and it 144 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 2: was conical shaped. It reminded me of if you've seen 145 00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 2: those old pictures of the Mercury astronauts from NASA would 146 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 2: re enter the Earth in this sort of conical shaped 147 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 2: space capsule, and it looked a lot like that. That 148 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 2: was the shape. It had a nice springy crust on it, 149 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 2: and it had a really nice sour dough taste to it. 150 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 2: There were only a few ingredients in it, emergrain, coriander, salt, yeast, 151 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 2: and water was basically it. And the sour dough combined 152 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 2: with sort of the whole wheat from the emmer and 153 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 2: the coriander coming in it was delicious. It was far 154 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 2: far better than I expected it was going to be. 155 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:36,320 Speaker 1: Now you mentioned bad experimental archaeology. I was wondering, this 156 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: isn't really something that is the focus of the book 157 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: or anything, But at least in your preliminary research, did 158 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: you find examples of experimental archaeology either veering into the 159 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: realm of or originating within the realms of alternative archaeology 160 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: or pseudo archaeology. 161 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 2: I definitely came across those kind of things, but most 162 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 2: of that stuff sort of falls in the realm of 163 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 2: maybe not traditional archaeology, but at least sort of the 164 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,119 Speaker 2: methods they used, where it's a little bit more armchair 165 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 2: and removed. You're looking at documents, artifacts, things like that. 166 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 2: So certainly not good archaeology and poorly reasoned in a 167 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 2: lot of cases, but it is a little bit more 168 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 2: on the I guess, traditional side, so to speak, as 169 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 2: opposed to the people who are actually making and doing 170 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 2: things that you can hear and taste and touch. 171 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: Now getting back into the positives here, something you write 172 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: about numerous examples of this in the book. How important 173 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: is experimental archaeology for the exploration and even revitalization of 174 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: traditions that have been lost or eroded via s a 175 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 1: Western colonialism. 176 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's actually a really important theme in the book 177 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:47,959 Speaker 2: is that there are a lot of different people doing it. 178 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 2: Some are traditional scholarly archaeologists who just wanted to do 179 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 2: something a little different. But the other thread on the 180 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:59,319 Speaker 2: other groups of people doing this are you know, indigenous 181 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 2: peopleeople from native cultures who to them this isn't archaeology 182 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 2: as much as it's their ancestry, it's their history. And 183 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 2: in a lot of cases they are either reviving the 184 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 2: traditions themselves, you know, going back to look at songs, poems, 185 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 2: traditions that they had and reviving them, or in some 186 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 2: cases they have actually kept their traditions alive despite the 187 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 2: struggles of you know, colonialism and things like that. Kind 188 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 2: of decimating their culture. So in a lot of cases, 189 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 2: they are the ones going to the archaeologists teaching them, 190 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 2: correcting them, showing them how their ancestors lived. That's another 191 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 2: really important element of the book is talking to those 192 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 2: people about the wonderful job they've done preserving and reviving 193 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 2: their cultures. 194 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. One example of this, I was excited to read 195 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: about traditional Native American acorn processing practices in the book. 196 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: This is something I myself had just learned about fairly 197 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: recently on a trip to Yosemite National Park, where they have, 198 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: you know, various places where you can learn about this. 199 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about the labor 200 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 1: that went into cultivating and processing these nuts and what 201 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: the final culinary results tasted like. 202 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, So this was one of the cases in the book, 203 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 2: you know, kind of going through the different projects that 204 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 2: I did. In a lot of cases, I was essentially 205 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 2: just floundering around and that I was trying something out. 206 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 2: I was very poor at it, and it sort of 207 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 2: reinforced how difficult it was in some cases to do 208 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 2: something even basically get a meal for yourself. So essentially 209 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 2: what I did is I gathered a bunch of acorns 210 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 2: from different trees around my neighborhood, maybe a few hundred 211 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 2: of them, five hundred something like that. Then I had 212 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 2: to look around for a hammerstone and an anvil and 213 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 2: essentially just brought them home and started cracking them open, 214 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 2: digging the meat out, and processing them. I learned pretty 215 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 2: quickly that maybe a third or so of them were 216 00:11:56,320 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 2: rotten on the inside. Some actually had weavils inside them, 217 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,679 Speaker 2: so no, I had bugs crawling around in my homes. 218 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 2: I'd brought them in and the other and so I 219 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 2: had to discard a lot of them. And then I 220 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 2: had to just essentially grind them up into flour as 221 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 2: finally as I could. And that was a step especially 222 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 2: that got discouraging because I had, you know, a big 223 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 2: bucket full of acorns and that eventually ground down to 224 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 2: much less than a cup of accnable flour. And it 225 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 2: was very very frustrating thinking about all the work I 226 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 2: had done to gather them to grind them up. Oh, 227 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 2: and actually skip a step because I had to leach 228 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 2: them then to try to get the tannins the bitter 229 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:41,679 Speaker 2: flavor out of them. And I ended up with basically 230 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 2: just a cup of flour and could make a few 231 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 2: muffins out of them, and then apparently I did a 232 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 2: bad job with the leeching as well, because they tasted 233 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 2: like the most bitter thing I've ever eaten in my life. 234 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 2: It was like a colaxon of bitterness raging inside my mouth. 235 00:12:57,480 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 2: They were not very good the way I made them. 236 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 2: Actually got to travel to a school that does some 237 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 2: experimental archaeology work in Maine. They do teach survivalist skills 238 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 2: things like that, and they showed me a little bit 239 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 2: more about how to process them, and they ended up 240 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 2: being absolutely delicious. We made acorn pancakes fresh on a 241 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 2: hot stone griddle. We had a little bit of butter 242 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 2: on them. They were absolutely scrumgious, wonderful stuff. So it 243 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 2: was a good learning experience and humbling in sort of 244 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 2: a nice way to, yeah, to just show how difficult 245 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 2: it was to do something basic like get a meal. 246 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: Now, you chat with a number of researchers in this 247 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: book whose work I was familiar with to some degree 248 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: or another, like they'd come up on previous episodes of 249 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: this show. One in particular is Lynn Wadley on the 250 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 1: topic of ancient bedding. I was familiar with her work, 251 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 1: but not the hurdles she faced over her own use 252 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: of experimental archaeology. Can you tell us a little bit 253 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: about this. 254 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, So she's an archaeologist in South Africa and she 255 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 2: does a lot of traditional archaeology, digging things out of 256 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 2: the dirt, stuff like that. But she had an idea 257 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 2: she wanted to try an experiment with the bedding that 258 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 2: she found in one cave. There she found what we 259 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 2: think is probably the oldest bed on Earth, from about 260 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 2: seventy five thousand or so years ago. And essentially it's 261 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 2: a two part bed that's pretty ingenious in a way. 262 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 2: There's a layer of ash on the ground, so you 263 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 2: just burn a bunch of debris, get a nice layer 264 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 2: of ash there, and then you put what she called 265 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 2: a top sheet on there of aromatic leaves that you 266 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 2: can pick from trees around the cave. And basically what 267 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 2: that does is it provides a nice soft place to 268 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 2: lie down, which is kind of the main function of 269 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 2: a bed. But in combination, the ash and the leaves 270 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 2: keep insects away, they keep mosquitoes away. The aromatic leaves 271 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 2: keep the mosquitoes away, and the ash is important for 272 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 2: keeping ticks away. And she showed this by gathering a 273 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 2: bunch of ticks on the farm that she lives in 274 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 2: in South Africa, and she essentially put them down on 275 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 2: I think they were in a bucket, and she put 276 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 2: a ring of ash around these ticks that she had gathered, 277 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 2: and she just saw what would happen. She let them 278 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 2: try to escape, so they had to burrow through this 279 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 2: ring of ash to try to get out of there, 280 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 2: and she found that most of the ticks did not 281 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 2: even make it through the ring of ash. They died 282 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 2: halfway through. The ones that did make it out, their 283 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 2: mouth parts were so gummed up with ash that they 284 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 2: couldn't effectively bite anyone. So this ash layer provided a 285 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 2: really nice barrier against ticks biting you, spreading diseases, things 286 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 2: like that. So I thought it was a really ingenious experiment. 287 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 2: And then she actually had some people spend a night 288 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 2: on one of the a recreation of one of these 289 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 2: beds in the cave, which I thought would have been 290 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 2: really cool. I wish I had gotten a chance to 291 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 2: do that. They said it was a little nerve wracking, 292 00:15:58,320 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 2: you know, they were kind of out there. They'd know, 293 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 2: animals prowling around or whatever. But apparently the beds themselves 294 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 2: were fairly comfortable. So she was telling me about all this. 295 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 2: I thought it was a really cool little experiment, and 296 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 2: I was surprised to hear that she had a lot 297 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 2: of trouble publishing anything about it. And in fact, the 298 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 2: editor of the paper said, you know, I love all 299 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 2: the traditional archaeology. I am not mentioning this little informal 300 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 2: experiment you did, either with the ticks or having people 301 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 2: spend a night on them. And the editor would not 302 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 2: budge on this and cut that section from the paper. 303 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 2: And it kind of highlights the tensions that you see 304 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 2: between traditional archaeology and even someone running sort of an 305 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 2: informal experiment. And I told her, and I'd write about 306 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 2: this in the book, that it's even more disappointing because 307 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 2: I was thinking about Charles Darwin especially, He ran tons 308 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 2: of informal experiments like this, and they helped him generate 309 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 2: new ideas to test, They helped inform the biology of 310 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 2: the time. So she was really working in the spirit 311 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 2: of Charles Darwin and was just disappointing an editor put 312 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 2: his foot down like that. 313 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, And then that's the kind of stuff too that 314 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:08,680 Speaker 1: helps make it real for people like most of most 315 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,199 Speaker 1: of the listeners here, certainly like myself outside of the 316 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: academic world. Do you hear about these informal experiments and yeah, 317 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: it fleshes it out. 318 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, and captures your imagination. You can imagine yourself lying 319 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 2: on this bed, what it would feel like. It's much 320 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 2: more close to your heart then you're just reading about 321 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 2: digging something up out of the dirt. 322 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 1: Now, speaking of digging things out of the dirt, can 323 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: you tell us a little bit about your experiences eating 324 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: toxic potatoes in Peru? 325 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was another case where I was a bit 326 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 2: surprised at the outcomes of what happened. So potatoes are 327 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 2: native to the Andian Highlands in Peru, and I didn't 328 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:48,360 Speaker 2: realize when I started doing this project the sheer variety 329 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 2: you see of potatoes up there, just the colors, the shapes, 330 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:57,160 Speaker 2: they're really really beautiful, all the different tubers you get 331 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 2: in the Indian Highlands where they're they're native to. One 332 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 2: thing I didn't realize also though, was that they're toxic. 333 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 2: So native potatoes you who cannot eat because they have 334 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 2: certain chemicals in them that will poison you. So you 335 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 2: have to process them in different ways. You can make 336 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 2: a couple of different dishes out of them, depending on 337 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 2: how you process them. One way is essentially that you 338 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 2: freeze dry them, so you leave them out overnight soaking 339 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 2: in water, and the chemical reactions take place and it 340 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 2: essentially disables breaks down these chemicals and they leech out 341 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,639 Speaker 2: and then they're safe to eat after that. And another 342 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 2: way is you can process them a little bit but 343 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 2: also mix in a clay sauce. So you take dirt 344 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 2: clay from riverbank, mix it up with water, and you 345 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 2: eat the potatoes with that sauce, and the clay actually 346 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 2: binds to the poison chemicals and it goes through your 347 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,120 Speaker 2: digestive system. It doesn't end up poisoning you. And when 348 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 2: I got started with this, the first dish, the freeze 349 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 2: dried one, was the one I was excited about. So 350 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 2: I thought it was like sort of a you know, 351 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,679 Speaker 2: an ancient astronaut food almost. I was like, this is 352 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:09,399 Speaker 2: so cool, you know, the freeze drying this food in 353 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 2: this way. And I tried it and it just didn't 354 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 2: taste good to me. And I recognized I didn't grow 355 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,919 Speaker 2: up eating it, so people there probably have a different opinion. 356 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 2: But it just tasted sort of like the desiccated husk 357 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 2: of a potato. There's a bit of flavor there, not much. 358 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 2: It was very mealy and dry and just did not 359 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:30,919 Speaker 2: really impressed me. I just didn't enjoy the taste. So 360 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 2: then I moved on to the other one, which I 361 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:35,120 Speaker 2: was not excited about, which was the one you mixed 362 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 2: with clay, and to my delight, that actually tasted really good. 363 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,439 Speaker 2: It had a very nice earthy flavor to it. The 364 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 2: sauce was sort of brown. It had kind of a 365 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 2: nice almost a texture like a ti peanut sauce to it. 366 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 2: So a nice earthy flavor, a good texture, and I 367 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 2: really really enjoyed that dish. So it surprised me a 368 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,679 Speaker 2: bit that, you know, eating clay essentially would really improve 369 00:19:58,760 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 2: this dish and make it good. 370 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 1: Oh wow, Yeah, that that runs counter to what I 371 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 1: think my expectations would have been as well. I mean, 372 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 1: I guess we have a predisposition to judge the use 373 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 1: of clay and other related substances in our food. But 374 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 1: that's fascinating. 375 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's normally something we would brush off the food. 376 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 2: I think, like this is integral to be able to 377 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:19,160 Speaker 2: eat the food. But it wasn't. 378 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: This case. Now another I have to ask you about 379 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: another topic that had come up previously on stuff to 380 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,639 Speaker 1: blow your mind. You talk about the at Lotto spear thrower. 381 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: Tell us what it was like getting to try out 382 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:39,919 Speaker 1: or reconstruction of this weapon. 383 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, so the laddle is probably the most widespread hunting 384 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:49,919 Speaker 2: tool in history. I was surprised at how widespread it is, 385 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,240 Speaker 2: much more so than bows and arrows, much more so 386 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 2: than spears. And if anyone has not heard of a 387 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 2: net laddle, it's essentially a long, flexible spear, but instead 388 00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 2: of throwing it with your hand, you use a throwing stick. 389 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 2: So it's just a long straight stick with a bit 390 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 2: of a notch on the end, and you put that 391 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 2: in your hand. You hold that in your hand and 392 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 2: you use that to throw the spear. And essentially what 393 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:15,680 Speaker 2: it does is it extends the length of your arm, 394 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 2: gives you more leverage and power in throwing it. And 395 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 2: I spent a great afternoon at an experimental archaeology lab 396 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 2: at Kent State University. They have a wonderful little program there, 397 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 2: and the guy there and the who was in charge 398 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 2: of this program, he had a bunch of at laddles 399 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 2: and spears. I mean, just so he spent an afternoon 400 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 2: throwing them at these little foam dummies that he had. 401 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 2: They had one that was sort of a beloved mascot 402 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,399 Speaker 2: that they called Bambo. It was much loved, much abused. 403 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 2: After years of throwing at laddles at it, it actually 404 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 2: didn't have any legs anymore because it's been hit so 405 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 2: many times. So they propped that up in the field. 406 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 2: Then they had another one that was like a third 407 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 2: size replic of a cariboo. I think it was I 408 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 2: got it from target or whatever. So we set those 409 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 2: up in the field and we just spent an afternoon 410 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 2: throwing these at laddle darts at them. And I was 411 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 2: surprised at how easy it was to get distance with 412 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,239 Speaker 2: an at laddle dart. I don't remember off the top 413 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 2: of my head, but the world record for throwing one 414 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,680 Speaker 2: is something like two hundred and fifty yards, whereas the 415 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 2: world record for throwing a javelin is much closer to 416 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 2: one hundred yards, maybe one hundred and ten something like that. 417 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 2: So you can really get a lot of distance on 418 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 2: these things. And even I, who had never picked one 419 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 2: up before, could throw it. You know, most of a 420 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 2: football field pretty easily, but accuracy was another matter. I 421 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,360 Speaker 2: tickled the chin of that cariboo, I swear like four 422 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 2: or five times. It just kept going just left, just right, 423 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 2: just over it. I just could not quite hit it. 424 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 2: There was a pretty common experience. The archaeologist I mentioned 425 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 2: actually brought his class in there. So there were maybe 426 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:00,719 Speaker 2: thirty of us students and me the fling these around, 427 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,679 Speaker 2: and we probably hit it, you know, maybe a dozen 428 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 2: times over the course of a couple of hours. And 429 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 2: the students were motivated. They got extra credit if they 430 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 2: hit it, so they were really motivated to try to 431 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 2: hit this thing. But it proved difficult to aim for 432 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 2: us amateurs. But it's a really fun way to spend 433 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 2: an afternoon. 434 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: Now I want to come back to the title of 435 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 1: the book is, of course, Dinner with King Tutt. We 436 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: already talked a little bit about Egyptian bread, but how 437 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 1: about Egyptian beer. Now, this is one, this is another 438 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 1: one where you attempted to brew this yourself right at home. 439 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 2: I did. Yeah, So I didn't go all out getting 440 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 2: the grain source from Egypt and you know, getting the 441 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 2: right type of ye stuff like that. I just wanted 442 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 2: a basic flavor of what it might have tasted like. 443 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 2: So I got some emmer grain, which is the grain 444 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 2: that they would have used, and barley, a mix of 445 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,959 Speaker 2: those two things, and I essentially just fermented them in 446 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,439 Speaker 2: my home with a basic beer fermenting kit. So you 447 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 2: make the mash, you know, you heat it up, you 448 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 2: had the yeast, all those kind of things through in 449 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,120 Speaker 2: some different plausible ingredients that they might have used in beer, cinnamon, 450 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 2: things like that. And one important difference was that they 451 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 2: did not use hops in Egyptian beer. That's a later 452 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,399 Speaker 2: invention from medieval times, and that really makes a big 453 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:19,880 Speaker 2: difference with beer because hops is a fairly strong bitter flavor. 454 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 2: So the Egyptian beer did not have the bitter flavor 455 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 2: that were used to with modern beers, and that actually 456 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:32,479 Speaker 2: allowed other flavors to come forward, sour flavors especially, and 457 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 2: to my taste, it tasted less like a beer than 458 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 2: it did like a cambucha essentially, so it was a 459 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:42,919 Speaker 2: nice sour flavor to it, and I could imagine it 460 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 2: being really delicious and thirst quenching after a long hot 461 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,880 Speaker 2: day in the sun, you know, shoving pyramid blocks into 462 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 2: place or whatever. So that was one interesting thing was 463 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,640 Speaker 2: the taste was sour. And the other thing that I noticed, 464 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 2: and you know, you hear about this from archaeologists or 465 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,199 Speaker 2: people have re created the beer in other ways, is 466 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 2: that they didn't have filters back then modern filters to 467 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 2: get the chaff and the little bits of grain out 468 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 2: of the beer. They spent grain, So the beer was 469 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 2: a little maybe chunkier, you might say, and that there 470 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 2: was stuff floating on the top. And in some places, 471 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,120 Speaker 2: maybe not Egypt necessarily as much, but in some places 472 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 2: in the Caucuses and other areas they were making this beer, 473 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,239 Speaker 2: they actually traditionally drank the beer with a straw in 474 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 2: order to get below the chaffline and just get at 475 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 2: the beer, as opposed to, you know, getting a big 476 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 2: mouthful of the stuff you don't want. 477 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:36,879 Speaker 1: Oh wow, So any of us that are inclined to 478 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 1: use a straw the next time we are having a 479 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 1: pint out se. 480 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, there were, actually it was this was in 481 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,880 Speaker 2: a different area, not in Egypt, but there was one 482 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 2: case where archaeologists found a straw that they think it 483 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 2: was you know, maybe a king would have given it 484 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 2: as a gift to a visiting monarch or something like that. 485 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 2: But it was about two or three feet long, so 486 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 2: very big, and it was so ornately decorated that they 487 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,399 Speaker 2: mistook it for a scepter at first. That's how elaborate 488 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 2: this straw was. But you know, these were valuable items 489 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:11,159 Speaker 2: to people back then. 490 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 1: Wow, that's awesome. Now, on the subject of Egyptian bread 491 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: and beer, you also get into how these would not 492 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 1: just be valued for their role as sustenance and refreshment, 493 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 1: but these were also spiritually important. 494 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, beer and bread were. They basically permeated every aspect 495 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 2: of Egyptian life. The workers on the pyramids, for instance, 496 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 2: were paid wages in bread and beer, and then they 497 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,679 Speaker 2: ate them with every meal, both of those things with 498 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 2: every meal, And when they were preparing people for the 499 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:47,159 Speaker 2: afterlife their tombs, they would always include bread and beer 500 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 2: to get them to the afterlife and for sustenance in 501 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 2: the afterlife. It was so ingrained in their culture they 502 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 2: could not imagine life or the afterlife without these two things. 503 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: Now, this is obviously the point to ask to come 504 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,679 Speaker 1: back to some thing you mentioned earlier, The Maryland Mummy, 505 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:07,679 Speaker 1: the work of Bob Bryer and Ron Wade. Tell us 506 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: a little bit about this, how it went down and 507 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: how has this project aged like tell us a little 508 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: bit about how it was received at the time and 509 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: have archaeologists warmed up to it. 510 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 2: So this project I started in Baltimore, Maryland in the 511 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 2: mid nineties. There was an egyptologist and the head of 512 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 2: the State Anatomy Board. There an anatomist and the egyptologist 513 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,399 Speaker 2: I think he was sort of the prime mover behind this. 514 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 2: He realized that, you know, we have a lot of 515 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 2: Egyptian mummies, but there's not a lot written down about 516 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 2: how they actually made the mummies. It's kind of a 517 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 2: mysterious process and we don't know if you know, the 518 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 2: information got lost. We don't know if they were keeping 519 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 2: it a secret, they just passed down to brissions orally 520 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 2: whatever the case was. But there's not a lot written 521 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,120 Speaker 2: about how they actually made the mummies. So he decided 522 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,880 Speaker 2: he wanted to recreate a human mummy. He approached this 523 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 2: anatomist who was head of the State Anatomy Board, and 524 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,159 Speaker 2: he said, here's a proposal for a project. You know, 525 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 2: people donate their bodies to science. What do you think 526 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 2: The anatomist was gung how about it, And so they 527 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 2: decided they were gonna mummify a human being, and the 528 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 2: Egyptologist especially got pretty excited about this idea in that 529 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 2: he tried to be as authentic as possible, to the 530 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 2: point that he flew over to Egypt and he actually 531 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,880 Speaker 2: dug out the mineral that they used to dehydrate the body. 532 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 2: It's a mineral called natron, and chemically it's essentially a 533 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:36,400 Speaker 2: mix of baking soda and table salt, so pretty simple chemically, 534 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 2: but it forms naturally in dry gullies and waddies over 535 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 2: in Egypt. So he flew all the way over there, 536 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 2: got a shovel, dug out hundreds of pounds of this stuff, 537 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 2: and actually, he said, one of the more ticklish aspects 538 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 2: of the project was smuggling it back into the US, 539 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 2: all this unidentified white powder that he had in his luggage, 540 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 2: but got it into the US, got it down to Maryland, 541 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 2: and they essentially just mummified the body. They opened it up, 542 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 2: got the organs out, dried them out with the natron, 543 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 2: you know, washed the body out the way that they 544 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 2: would have back then, used oils on it, got the 545 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 2: brain out of the head in the way that they 546 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 2: would have back then, and then just piled it under 547 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 2: hundreds of pounds of this natron mineral to dry it out. 548 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 2: And when word got out there about this experiment, it 549 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 2: proved pretty controversial within the archaeological community and sort of 550 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 2: the wider biology community. There were some bioethicists who came 551 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 2: out against it. Some archaeologists also came out against it. 552 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 2: They said it was sort of tasteless, macabre. They didn't 553 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 2: see much value in it. And I do see their 554 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:47,719 Speaker 2: point that, you know, when you're donating your body to science, 555 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 2: you're probably assuming it's going to go to a medical 556 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 2: school or something like that. You're not necessarily signing up 557 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 2: to become a mummy. But you know, legally they had 558 00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 2: backing for it. It said, you know, you're going to 559 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 2: end up in a medical school, or we have other 560 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 2: projects sometimes we use. And they defended the project by 561 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 2: saying that they actually learned a lot about how we 562 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 2: mummified the body. So they learned how long it took 563 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 2: roughly to mummify the body. They learned how to get 564 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 2: the organs out of the body, which is something they 565 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 2: did not know. One really cool thing I think they 566 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 2: learned is the Egyptologists had always wanted to know. You know, 567 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 2: you see a classic mummy its skin is very dry, 568 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 2: it's pulled back from the face, the teeth are probably protruding. 569 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 2: It sort of has a classic mummy look to it, 570 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 2: and he wanted to know is that due to the 571 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 2: mummification process or is that because this body has been 572 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 2: in a very dry environment in Egypt for three or 573 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 2: four thousand years? What causes these changes to the body 574 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 2: and about I think it was like five weeks into 575 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 2: the project. They had to change the mineral out and 576 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 2: put fresh mineral on, but they decided to take a 577 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 2: peek at the body, and even by that point five 578 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 2: weeks in, the Egyptology was sort of startled and he said, 579 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 2: oh my god, this looks exactly like Ramses the Great. 580 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 2: It was incredible. So it was the mummification process they 581 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 2: learned that caused the changes in sort of give mummies 582 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 2: their iconic look. So they defended it by saying, you know, 583 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 2: they first of all learned a lot about it, and 584 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 2: second of all, they said they treated this body much 585 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 2: better than most bodies get treated. And the body is 586 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 2: still around today. It's in an office building in Maryland. 587 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 2: It is perfectly well preserved. It's probably going to look 588 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 2: a lot better than any of us will in one 589 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 2: hundred years, so he got treated, as they put it, 590 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 2: sort of like the king. 591 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: It's been many years since I read Mary Roach's book Stiff, 592 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,959 Speaker 1: but if memory serves, it's like the mummification process is 593 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: probably a step above some of the other legitimate uses 594 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 1: that are employees donated body. 595 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 2: Yes, that's a good point. Yeah, And actually I got to, 596 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 2: you know again, sort of doing a secondary version of this. 597 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 2: I actually made a fish mummy in my apartment in Washington, DC. 598 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 2: And you know, it's kind of sweltering hot right now, 599 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 2: and it was when I made that fish mummy. But 600 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 2: that fish, I bought it whole from the store. It 601 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 2: never saw the inside of refrigerator. And fish are sort 602 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 2: of a classic animal that you think is gonna smell bad, 603 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 2: it's not gonna last very long. But I just mixed 604 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 2: some baking soda and salt together, put it in a 605 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 2: casserole dish, and mummified this fish and it went perfectly well. 606 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 2: The fish never smelled, never got rotten. I still have 607 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 2: it on my counter today. It's perfectly preserved. So it's 608 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 2: pretty easy to do this project on your own, and 609 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 2: in some ways it sort of fulfills the Egyptian traditions 610 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 2: and that they mummified a lot of animals as well 611 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 2: as human beings. 612 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 1: Now, I want to make it clear for listeners out 613 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 1: there that I'm not asking you about even I think 614 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: half of the wonderful examples and topics you get into here. 615 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 1: There's a whole chapter dealing with with various Chinese traditions 616 00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:01,240 Speaker 1: and inventions. You deal with the multiple different time periods 617 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: and places. There's the Viking chapter. So I'm only scratching 618 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 1: the surface here with my questions, but I am going 619 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 1: to ask you about the Meso American ballgame. This is 620 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 1: one that I think anyone who's ever even like casually 621 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: studied anything to do with az Tech history and as 622 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: tech culture has come across examples of this, tell us 623 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 1: a little bit about this and did you get to 624 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 1: play it? 625 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, So, if you're not familiar with it, the Aztec 626 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 2: ballgame is a it's sort of a weird mashup of 627 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 2: maybe tennis and soccer, I guess is the way you 628 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 2: would describe it. You have two teams and you're knocking 629 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 2: a ball back and forth from one team to the other, 630 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 2: but you're also moving down the field trying to knock 631 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 2: get past your opponent's end line. And what makes this 632 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 2: game unusual is that you can't kick the ball. You 633 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 2: can't use your arms at all. You can only use 634 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 2: your hips. You have to turn and you have to 635 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 2: hit the ball with your hip. And when I was 636 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 2: learning how to so it spoiler a bit. I guess 637 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 2: I did learn how to play the game. And when 638 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 2: I was learning how to do it, the instructor said, 639 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 2: just do a shakira, So you take your hip and 640 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 2: you twist it hit the ball with your hip like shakira. 641 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,279 Speaker 2: So that kind of puts you in the mindset of 642 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 2: what it's like to play this game. And it was 643 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 2: surprised about a few things, especially the size of the ball, 644 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 2: in that it was roughly the size of a bowling ball, 645 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 2: and it was also as heavy as a bowling bar. 646 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 2: Was it was softer than a bowling ball because it 647 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 2: was made out of rubber, but it was solid rubber 648 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 2: all the way through. There was no inflatable bladder or 649 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:36,320 Speaker 2: anything inside it, so it was a really heavy, dense ball. 650 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,240 Speaker 2: And this is the ball that you're knocking with your hips, 651 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 2: hitting it back and forth, So imagine basically sending a 652 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 2: padded bowling ball bouncing back and forth with your hip. 653 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 2: So despite that, when I did get to play this game, 654 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,839 Speaker 2: it was fun at first because you serve the ball 655 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:55,680 Speaker 2: you tossed to the other team, and when the ball's 656 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 2: bouncing back and forth, you know, you kind of get 657 00:34:58,200 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 2: the hang of it. You hit it with your hips. 658 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:04,320 Speaker 2: Sort of a fun little game. The problem is, because 659 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 2: the ball is so heavy, it eventually loses momentum and 660 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 2: starts rolling along the ground, and again you can only 661 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,360 Speaker 2: hit it with your hip. So you have to do 662 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 2: is when the ball comes your way, you have to 663 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 2: drop to the ground. We were playing on hard pavement here, 664 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,400 Speaker 2: not grass or anything. You have to drop to the 665 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 2: pavement and use your hip like a pinball paddle essentially, 666 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 2: and sort of swing it and knock the ball back 667 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 2: with your hip, and then you have to pop back 668 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 2: up because it's a penalty if you're still on the 669 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 2: ground before the ball gets back to the other team. 670 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 2: You have to pop back up, and then they'll hit 671 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 2: it right back to you. You have to drop to 672 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 2: the ground again, hit it back, pop up, and just 673 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 2: keep doing this over and over and over. It was 674 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 2: like doing essentially a hundred burpies in a row, except 675 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:48,879 Speaker 2: then you had to knock a bowling ball back each 676 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 2: time you did it, and before long, maybe half an 677 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 2: hour in, my legs were just quaking with fatigue and cramping. 678 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,080 Speaker 2: I was really really hurting after doing all of these 679 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 2: calisthenics for a while, and eventually I feel a bit 680 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 2: craven about this, but eventually I was hiding behind one 681 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 2: of my teammates who happened to be an eleven year 682 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 2: old child, because I just couldn't take this anymore going 683 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 2: up and down, and the child was very good. They 684 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 2: were popping right up and down. She was just knocking 685 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 2: the ball back and forth. So I let her have 686 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,919 Speaker 2: her fun after a while and sort of effectively quit 687 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 2: playing this, and then spent the next day limping around 688 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 2: Mexico City, where I ended up going to play it, 689 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 2: just limping around, wincing every time I had to use 690 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:38,400 Speaker 2: the stairs. But it really did drive home what an 691 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 2: unusual game this was. I played a lot of sports 692 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:44,240 Speaker 2: going up, but never anything like this, And just how 693 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:48,239 Speaker 2: tough the people were who played this game, because these 694 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,880 Speaker 2: games could go on for you know, days at a 695 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,440 Speaker 2: time sometimes and they actually used it as training for 696 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,400 Speaker 2: war to toughen their warriors up, and I can really 697 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,080 Speaker 2: see how it would be effective as training for so 698 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:02,799 Speaker 2: because again, even after half an hour or so, I 699 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 2: was I was a hurting unit. 700 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's yeah, absolutely sounds brutal, and yeah, you can 701 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,799 Speaker 1: see how it is, certainly based on your experiences here. 702 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,440 Speaker 1: It's it's how it conditions the warrior. And yet that 703 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 1: it does feel weirdly foreign compared to like modern so 704 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 1: many modern popular sports, but in a weird way, like, 705 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,359 Speaker 1: how is it really that different from soccer? We're kicking 706 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,000 Speaker 1: the ball around? Is that? You know, it's it's not 707 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,759 Speaker 1: like people kick each other in war. So I don't know, 708 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,880 Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's I guess it's just a difficult 709 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 1: one to try and contemplate as like a modern somewhat 710 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:39,560 Speaker 1: familiar with modern sports. 711 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I guess I didn't even think about sports 712 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,719 Speaker 2: as something you could really investigate with archaeology. We think 713 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 2: about them as much more of a modern phenomenon. And yeah, 714 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:52,399 Speaker 2: this was just kind of an unusual chance to do 715 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 2: something outside of the normal realm of recreating recipes, recreating tools, 716 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,680 Speaker 2: things like that, to try out a sport that, Yeah, 717 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 2: you can definitely see affinities with modern sports, but it 718 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:04,760 Speaker 2: is its own distinct thing. 719 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:17,440 Speaker 1: Now, on the subject of like recreating recreating history certainly 720 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 1: a huge part of experimental archaeology, tell us a little 721 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:26,360 Speaker 1: bit about how you utilized fiction writing in this book, 722 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:33,319 Speaker 1: using fiction alongside the nonfiction to recreate possible chapters from 723 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:33,960 Speaker 1: the past. 724 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, so the book structure is a bit unusual. Each 725 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:41,480 Speaker 2: chapter puts you in a specific time and a specific place. 726 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,439 Speaker 2: So one chapter is Africa seventy five thousand years ago, 727 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 2: another chapter is medieval China. You're in ancient Egypt, ancient Rome, 728 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 2: Viking times, Arctic a thousand years ago, a bunch of 729 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,719 Speaker 2: different places. And the premise of each chapter was to 730 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,200 Speaker 2: really immerse you and just spend a day in the 731 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,760 Speaker 2: life of a person from that time and that place, 732 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,480 Speaker 2: and each of the things that I do and describe 733 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:11,640 Speaker 2: the archaeological experiments are related to that time and place. 734 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,960 Speaker 2: But overall, I thought, you know, fiction can do some 735 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:20,440 Speaker 2: things that nonfiction cannot. It's a bit more immersive being 736 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,760 Speaker 2: in that character's point of view. So for each chapter 737 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 2: there is a fictional sort of a short story where 738 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,760 Speaker 2: you are in the character's mind going through a day 739 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,600 Speaker 2: in their life, usually a pretty bad day, some dramatic 740 00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:35,640 Speaker 2: things happen to them, but you're going through a day 741 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:39,840 Speaker 2: in their life, experiencing what they would have experienced. And 742 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 2: then the story, the fiction story sort of stops at 743 00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,960 Speaker 2: a dramatic moment, jumps to the nonfiction, and then I 744 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 2: come in, explain what they were doing, Explain how the 745 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,759 Speaker 2: experimental archaeology works, stuff like that, who it fit in 746 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 2: with our culture. Then you jump back to the fiction 747 00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,360 Speaker 2: and it sort of alternates like that. But basically, the 748 00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,560 Speaker 2: fiction seemed like a better way to really imm yourself 749 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 2: in that time place, and it was a lot of 750 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,480 Speaker 2: fun to write. All my books so far have been 751 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,160 Speaker 2: strictly nonfiction. There's definitely a narrative component to it, but 752 00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:11,799 Speaker 2: this was explicitly fiction, and so it was a kind 753 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:12,560 Speaker 2: of a fun experiment. 754 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:15,239 Speaker 1: It's made for a fun reading experience as well. 755 00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:16,040 Speaker 2: Oh thank you. 756 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:18,640 Speaker 1: But I do have to wonder, though, is this because 757 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:22,880 Speaker 1: ultimately I can imagine thinking about this and planning this 758 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,440 Speaker 1: out at the planning stage of the book, and then 759 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:27,279 Speaker 1: it sounds like you kind of set yourself up with 760 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:31,080 Speaker 1: a kind of a sizeable challenge to write. In addition 761 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:33,360 Speaker 1: to the nonfiction, portions of the book what ten or 762 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 1: eleven short stories, each set in a different time, in place, 763 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:38,319 Speaker 1: and perspective. 764 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, it took a lot of reading to make sure 765 00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:43,600 Speaker 2: I got all the details right of all of these places, 766 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,400 Speaker 2: and you know, not only what places looked like, but 767 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:50,239 Speaker 2: also people's worldviews, how they thought about religion, how they 768 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 2: thought about family, all these different things. So it did 769 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:56,880 Speaker 2: take a lot of reading. But I'd always been interested 770 00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:00,719 Speaker 2: in these topics, and I'd been kind of gathering for 771 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,960 Speaker 2: this book for a while, so I had done some 772 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,000 Speaker 2: of the reading ahead of time and could draw on 773 00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:08,640 Speaker 2: those kind of things. And I've been working on this 774 00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,759 Speaker 2: book since actually I think before the pandemic, So I've 775 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,319 Speaker 2: been put a lot of time and effort into this one. 776 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,719 Speaker 2: So I think it paid off. I think the richness 777 00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:20,000 Speaker 2: of detail in each chapter really does bring a. 778 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:23,160 Speaker 1: Live Yeah, the proof is in the pudding. So the 779 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,160 Speaker 1: book again is Dinner with King tut how rogue archaeologists 780 00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:30,040 Speaker 1: are recreating the site, sound, smells, and tastes of lost civilizations. 781 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,280 Speaker 1: It's fantastic. Highly recommend it to listeners of this show, 782 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 1: and as far as podcast listeners go, you also host 783 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:38,880 Speaker 1: a podcast, tell Us a Little bit about this I do. 784 00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,359 Speaker 2: It's called Disappearing Spoon, which happens to be the name 785 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:46,000 Speaker 2: of my first book, and if you're familiar with that book, 786 00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,040 Speaker 2: the podcast is actually on a different topic. The book 787 00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:53,879 Speaker 2: was about the periodic table. This is more. I come 788 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,120 Speaker 2: across a lot of stories when I'm doing research, really good, 789 00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:01,439 Speaker 2: interesting stories about science and history that just don't fit 790 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:03,880 Speaker 2: in the books that I'm writing. And it always killed 791 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:05,719 Speaker 2: me to have no place for these stories. I had 792 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:09,319 Speaker 2: this big file of orphan stories that I had, but 793 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,640 Speaker 2: having the podcast gives me a chance to put them 794 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:16,000 Speaker 2: out there. So I've done series on things like, you know, 795 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,680 Speaker 2: the dumbest mistake Einstein ever made, or you know, how 796 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,920 Speaker 2: climate change could change the shape of the human body, 797 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 2: and things like that. So just little snippets I've come across. 798 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,719 Speaker 2: Each one's pretty bite sized, maybe twenty minutes or so, 799 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,719 Speaker 2: and yeah, they're out there, little fun sized bits of 800 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:33,600 Speaker 2: science and history. 801 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,439 Speaker 1: Awesome. Well, Sam, thanks again for coming on the show 802 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,560 Speaker 1: and chatting with me again. The book Dinner with King 803 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,359 Speaker 1: tut fabulous read, highly recommend it. 804 00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:44,960 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Thank you, thank you. 805 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,959 Speaker 1: All right, Thanks once again to Sam Keen for coming 806 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,520 Speaker 1: on the show. And chatting with me again. His website 807 00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:55,840 Speaker 1: is sam Keen dot com and the book is Dinner 808 00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:59,040 Speaker 1: with King Tut how rogue archaeologists are recreating the site 809 00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,799 Speaker 1: Sound Smells and Case of Lost Civilizations. It is out 810 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:07,120 Speaker 1: in hardcover July eighth, twenty twenty five. Thanks as always 811 00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,160 Speaker 1: to the excellent JJ Possway for producing the show here 812 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,520 Speaker 1: and if you would like to ride in with any feedback, 813 00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:15,799 Speaker 1: If you would like to just touch base with Joe 814 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:19,080 Speaker 1: or myself, well, you can email us at contact at 815 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:20,280 Speaker 1: stuff to Blow your Mind. 816 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:30,839 Speaker 2: Dot Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. 817 00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:34,120 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 818 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:53,399 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.