1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to Worst Year Ever, a production of I Heart 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 1: Radio Together Everything, So don't don't what's Auntie my fascis now? No, No, 3 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: that sounded good. That was a failure of an introduction. Um, 4 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: that was a failure of an introduction and also legally 5 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 1: a call to terrorism. I think now, I think me 6 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: saying that makes me and all of you a terrorist 7 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: and by definition also spotify a terrorist. I don't know. 8 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: That's why today I'm here sans Katie and Cody Um, 9 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 1: who have disappeared for reasons mysterious to talk about. Sophie 10 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: is here. Thank you, Sophie, I'm here, UM, you are 11 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:00,080 Speaker 1: were I just wanted to be. We heard Weird the 12 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: co host of Worst Year Ever today and we're going 13 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: to talk about, um, the government's the president's declaration that 14 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: Antifa is a terrorist group. UH with my friend and 15 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:14,960 Speaker 1: lawyer Moira Cohen. Where how are you doing today? I'm 16 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: I'm doing okay. Given the givens, are you doing today? 17 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: I'm good? Was I accurate in stating that Spotify is 18 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:26,759 Speaker 1: now legally a terrorist? I actually cannot give legal advice 19 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:34,039 Speaker 1: over the radio or on a podcast, so, UM, I 20 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 1: just can't comment on that. I also want to remind 21 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:40,559 Speaker 1: you that this conversation is not privileged. That's good, good 22 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 1: to note, that's good to know. And I'm taking that 23 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: as a big maybe on Spotify as a terrorist. So 24 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: if you're the c I A, please start sending Spotify arms. Um. 25 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: So where we're in a we're in a weird situation, 26 00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: and you're the person I call whenever scary things happen 27 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: in the law because I don't understand the law. Um, 28 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: all I understand is to ask a police officer if 29 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:10,359 Speaker 1: I'm being detained. Um, that's a really good start. You're 30 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: you're ahead of the gang there, you want to walk 31 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 1: me through. Kind of I'm curious as like as not 32 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: just a lawyer of it, as like a movement lawyer, 33 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 1: as somebody who deals with cases that that relate directly 34 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: to Um, let's say political activism on a regular basis. 35 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 1: When you wake up in the morning or whatever it was, 36 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:31,799 Speaker 1: when did you when did you hear that the president 37 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: had had stared out at our crumbling nation and decided 38 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: that Antifa was the blame? Well, you know, I I 39 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 1: don't know if you've noticed this since the pandemic, but 40 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 1: time is now fake. Yeah, it is a flat circle 41 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:55,679 Speaker 1: these days. So I honestly can't tell you what day 42 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: that was. What I can tell you is I woke 43 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,920 Speaker 1: up to a flurry of panicked text messages from just 44 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: about everyone I've ever represented, asking whether they were about 45 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 1: to go to federal prison. Yeah. Yeah, I had that 46 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: moment of panic. Yeah, I guess h m hmm. Whatever 47 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 1: day that was was a busy day. Yeah, And it 48 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 1: was also yeah, I don't it's all the I think 49 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:30,239 Speaker 1: in the in the words of Janice Joplin, it's all 50 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: the same fucking day, man. Yeah, the answer generally is no, 51 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: you're not all about to go to federal prison. I 52 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: guess that's the good news. That is good news. I 53 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: don't think I would like federal prison. Very few people do. Yeah. 54 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: I don't want to like pre judge it, because that's 55 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: not that's not okay. Um, but that's my gut feeling. Yeah. 56 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: So sometimes I have days, um as an attorney, where 57 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm being gas lit by the higher state. 58 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: And that was one of those days where I thought, 59 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: did I miss a tremendous change in law while I 60 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: was sleeping? Um? Did I just wake up to a 61 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 1: world where the first amendment is utterly meaningless, and it 62 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,479 Speaker 1: really it It sort of rattled me and I had 63 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:25,919 Speaker 1: to take a minute and step back and think about 64 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:29,840 Speaker 1: it and do a little analysis and say, no, uh, 65 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: this this proclamation is legally for the time being meaningless. Um. 66 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: But unfortunately that doesn't mean it's socially or culturally meaningless, 67 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: and it doesn't mean that it won't have impacts, uh 68 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 1: in the way the law is enforced or in the 69 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: way cases move through the legal system. And there are actually, 70 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: like I think one of the things that's important to 71 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 1: understand because this ties into also aspects of why there's 72 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: a lot of reasons why the federal government um fell 73 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 1: on its ass in terms of responding to right wing violence, 74 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 1: particularly in the last four years or so. Um. But 75 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: one of them is kind of related to the difficulty 76 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 1: of declaring something a domestic terrorist group, Like there's a 77 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: lot of restrictions on that. Would you mind give them 78 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 1: like a little overview of like what that actually is? Sure, um, 79 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: so I think I'm going to actually zoom out even 80 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: a little farther than that. It's okay. So I think 81 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: the thing that I want to remind your listeners of 82 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: is that the law writ large is not a set 83 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: of facts. It's not a static thing. It's always a 84 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: set of arguments. So when we talk about what the 85 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 1: law is, UM, that isn't always a stable thing, right 86 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 1: And so UM I think I referred to this a 87 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: second ago. Well, it's obviously important to know the substance 88 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: of the doctrine that we're dealing with. If we get 89 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: too narrowly focused on that doctrine, we might miss the 90 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: fact that there's law and there's law enforcement, and and 91 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 1: those can be too radically different things. Right. So, in 92 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: terms of what we're talking about with respect to terrorism, uh, 93 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:36,359 Speaker 1: and in particular domestic terrorism. This this matters in terms 94 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: of Trump's proclamation about Antifa being a terrorist organization, because 95 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: in fact he does not have authority to declare anything 96 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 1: a domestic terrorist organization. The State Department can declare foreign 97 00:06:55,600 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: organizations to be foreign terrorist organizations. And that is a 98 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: profound power that they have, UM And it's extremely dangerous 99 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: and it's extremely problematic in my opinion. UM. But because 100 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: at least for the time being, we do in this 101 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: country have UM the freedom of belief and association, it 102 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: they're going to run up against problems with um, passing 103 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: constitutional muster to the extent that they're trying to declare 104 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: a group to be a terrorist, a domestic terrorist organization. UM. 105 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: Just especially since and I think like this is the 106 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 1: thing that I think willfully of folks politically on the 107 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: right and misunderstand a lot like Anti foot isn't a group, 108 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: it's like a set. It's a mix of a set 109 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: of tactics and a set of beliefs. And there are 110 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: some groups like you know, Rose City Antifa, my own city, 111 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: who espouse those beliefs and tactics. But like, fundamentally, what 112 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: you'd be saying if you actually did criminalize antifas you 113 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: you're criminalizing an ideology which we don't get to do. 114 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: Here's that is correct, Um, I think that it's it 115 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: is interesting to look at that misapprehension, and it's hard 116 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: to tell to what degree it's uh willful and to 117 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: what degree it might be just a function of the 118 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: fact that the authoritarian right does have membership organizations like 119 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: the Clan that do have a clear hierarchy where you 120 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 1: do pay membership dues, where you do have a clear 121 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: and coherent set of beliefs that are outlined. Um. It 122 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 1: may just be a little bit beyond them culturally to 123 00:08:55,800 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: understand a movement or a set of tactics that are um, 124 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 1: a little less defined, right. Um, But I think it's 125 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 1: important to understand that law enforcement generally from the slave 126 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: patrols through the use of vagrancy laws, to um do 127 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: racist policing, to police unsheltered people, to police gender nonconforming people, um, 128 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 1: all of this. All of these laws are laws that 129 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:39,319 Speaker 1: are enforced in terms of policing identity or status. But 130 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: because of those constitutional problems that I referred to a 131 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 1: minute ago, Um, they're framed in terms of policing conduct, 132 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: even though we know that they're used to police identity. Right. 133 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 1: I think the kind of interesting thing that we're looking 134 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 1: at with Trump's proclamation is that he is making no 135 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 1: bones about the fact that he is trying to police 136 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: identity rather than conduct, um, which is a shift. Right. Yeah, Yeah, 137 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: that's what sea. Well, I mean, that's where he's going 138 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: to have problems. And that's why if we're going to 139 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: focus narrowly on what is what he has the legal 140 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: authority to do? Does he have the legal authority to 141 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 1: say Antifa, which, even setting aside for the moment, is 142 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: not a membership organization. Does he have the authority to 143 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: say that this group is unlawful? Well, no he doesn't. 144 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 1: That's that's not a power that he actually has. But 145 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: it neither does it matter, right? And I think that's 146 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: the thing that we need to to really drill down 147 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,839 Speaker 1: on here. Uh And how does this might be a 148 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: dumb question, but like how does Twitter interact with all 149 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: of this? Because him just announcing things that are legally 150 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: not true on Twitter. It's one of those things that 151 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: I'm like, Uh, how the funk is this still happening? 152 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: And why is he like it's not Is there like 153 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: any type of pro text? Like I don't understand how 154 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,959 Speaker 1: he can do that. I do feel like there are 155 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 1: a lot of people within the federal government and even 156 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: within law enforcement who are trying to figure out what 157 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 1: doesn't mean when the president announces something like this on Twitter. 158 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: I wish I if I could tweet and make policy, well, 159 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: things would be terrible, Things would be really bad. I 160 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: don't recommend there would be weird ship, don't. Yeah, it 161 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: couldn't possibly be any weirder than the actual ship that's 162 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: going on. That is true, And cocaine would be legal, Um, 163 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:57,599 Speaker 1: is cocaine legal? Mora cocaine is not legal, thank you, Yeah, 164 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: no problem. Um. So the president can tweet these kinds 165 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:05,319 Speaker 1: of things for the same reason the rest of us can, 166 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: and that is because of the very first Amendment. Yeah, 167 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 1: I'm wondering that, Like, but there's like we're in this 168 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 1: weird there's like this very unsettling thing. And I guess 169 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: some of it's just simply the problem that we have 170 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: a chief executive in which a great deal of power 171 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: is vested, and a huge amount of that power is informal. 172 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,560 Speaker 1: So like the president has his constitutional powers which have 173 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: existed for forever, and then he has the powers which 174 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: have evolved over time. Um. And many of those powers 175 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: that have evolved over time are based on just sort 176 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: of like people listen to the president. Um. And it 177 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: seems like that's what we're seeing with this Antifa stuff 178 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,079 Speaker 1: more than anything else. That's exactly right, Robert. And so 179 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: that I think the general point that I want to make, 180 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: and if if there's any clarity that I can give 181 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: your listeners, it's that there is a difference between lawful 182 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: authority and enforcement power, right, And there is a difference 183 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 1: between the lawful authority of the president to make policy 184 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 1: and the ability of the president to broadcast both to 185 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 1: state and non state actors that certain kinds of behavior 186 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: against certain kinds of people will be tolerated or encouraged. Right. Yeah, 187 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: And so you know, when we talk about does Trump 188 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: have the authority to designate quote Antifa, whatever that means, 189 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 1: as a terrorist organization, it does not matter whether or 190 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 1: not he has the authority to do that, because he 191 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: has communicated something altogether different that will nevertheless have real 192 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 1: material impacts for how policing happens at every level, for 193 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 1: how prosecutions and investigations, convictions and sentencings happen. Right. Because 194 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: the word terrorist is a discursive placeholder that um allows 195 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: everyone from police officers to juries two judges granting warrants 196 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: to rationalize their decisions UM with respect to this word 197 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 1: terrorist as opposed to the unexamined ideology through which they 198 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: are filtering all of these narratives requests for warrants. UM 199 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: they're understanding as police officers of who it is they're 200 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 1: looking at. And so to a Antifa, which is not 201 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: a real category of person, right, is a terrorist organization 202 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: suddenly creates this empty signifier that is malleable enough to 203 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: include or exclude just about anyone, right, And it's wild 204 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: to me that he so freely can tweet using the 205 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: word terrorists when he refuses to use it when there's uh, 206 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: white school shooters who have his his belief system and 207 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: there's evidence of that and he but but he can 208 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: label a entire group that he knows, let's be real, 209 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: nothing about something that they're not. I mean, as with 210 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: so many problems that we're having with this administration, and 211 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 1: right now, the problem isn't the problem is something that 212 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: has existed for forever, because like this is something that 213 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: I've heard a lot of comparisons being made between what's 214 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: what people are afraid will happen with this antifi declaration 215 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: in the Satanic panic of the late eighties I think 216 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: early nineties, which was like there's no law against being 217 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 1: a Satanist and also Satanists don't do any of the 218 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: things that people were punishing Satanists for doing, um and 219 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: none of those crimes actually occurred, but but people still 220 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: went to prison for them um. And it I think 221 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 1: it's because of the same thing, Like you're talking about 222 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 1: this fact that like the fact that this this is 223 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 1: in the air. And you know, part of a declaration 224 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: by the president gives UM, gives kind of permission for 225 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: for judges and for for for prosecutors and stuff too, 226 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: go after individuals more stringently. Um. And it there's a 227 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: quote from I think it was from the like the 228 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: old like what it was, sixties or seventies movie about 229 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:08,679 Speaker 1: like movie series about the Bible, with UM George C. 230 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: Scott as Moses. If you ever saw that, I think 231 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 1: that's where this is from. Where and the line is 232 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: Moses saying, UM, a man should be ruled by law, 233 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 1: not by the will of other men, um, which is 234 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:25,479 Speaker 1: a nice idea, But I'm curious about where Moses thanks 235 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 1: law comes from or how it is enforced. Well, I 236 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:32,440 Speaker 1: think it was a coked up screenwriter who put those 237 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: words in his mouth. UM. But it does seem like 238 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 1: we're being, yeah, I don't know, ruled by um kind 239 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: of the idle will of of of those in power, 240 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 1: which I guess we always have been, but usually there's 241 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:51,239 Speaker 1: more of a mask on about it. UM. I am 242 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 1: actually going to disagree with you, Okay, No, I'm glad 243 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:55,879 Speaker 1: to be disagreed with because that's a blique way to 244 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: look at things. Yes, disagree with him, please, No, I'm 245 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 1: just I'm just excited. Well, let's see, let's see how 246 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: hard we're going to fight about this. So I don't 247 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:11,439 Speaker 1: think this idea that there's a moral panic. Um. You know, 248 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:16,199 Speaker 1: certainly the moral panic over Satanists and is sort of 249 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 1: similar to what's happening with Antifa, But it's by no 250 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 1: means the only or even the most obvious, um precursor 251 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 1: of what we're seeing here right Um Fugitive slave Act 252 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 1: on down. Um. The police have always gone after people 253 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: who in any way were even perceived as a threat 254 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: to dominance, right and so um, abolitionists, labor movements, women's 255 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 1: rights movements, Puerto Rican independence, the Black Panthers, the Black 256 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 1: Liberation Army, environmental active lists, anarchists, anarchists both in the 257 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 1: nineteenth century and then again in the mid two thousand's 258 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 1: after us right, obviously, the red scare right McCarthy is 259 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: m This is by no means a new thing. I 260 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: think it is a little um because of the executive 261 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: that we happen to be dealing with right now. It 262 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:28,200 Speaker 1: the there is less of a veneer. Yeah, um, I 263 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: think he's less sophisticated about the way in which he 264 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 1: expresses these things, and so it might be somewhat more unvarnished. Yeah, 265 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: but but it's certainly not um a new tactic. Yeah, 266 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: you're absolutely right. This is just the first time it's 267 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: happened on Twitter. M M yeah, UM. And you're right. 268 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: We were doing this this series on the police right 269 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: now in our normal fee um to to give everybody 270 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:03,360 Speaker 1: and talking about a lot of what you're talking about 271 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: is how the police have been sort of the term 272 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 1: that's used in one of the texts I read was 273 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 1: designated vigilantes for kind of the the the primary power 274 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 1: UM group in in American culture, whoever that happens to 275 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: be and whatever they happen to be afraid of, the 276 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: police are used to funk those people up. Um. And Yeah, 277 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:26,640 Speaker 1: you're absolutely right, And I guess that is I think 278 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: it does seem like Trump's kind of calling a shot 279 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 1: um with this that he hopes that like I think 280 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,400 Speaker 1: that I think that this is the group that enough 281 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:39,719 Speaker 1: of the Americans who have you know, um, money and 282 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 1: power and who vote uh see these people as the 283 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: boogeyman of our times that I can going after them 284 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 1: will um will work out politically and be tolerated politically 285 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: by me Like, I guess that's what we're and I 286 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 1: guess we don't really know if that will be the case, 287 00:20:55,440 --> 00:21:00,199 Speaker 1: but that's the shot he's calling absolutely um and and 288 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 1: certainly he's manufacturing that boogeyman. He's working really hard to 289 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 1: do that. UM. And I think, along with its sort 290 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 1: of twin discourse of the outside agitator UM, he's kind 291 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:23,159 Speaker 1: of creating these mutually reinforcing UM boogeymen, right, Um that 292 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 1: are you know, deeply racist, deeply anti semitic. Um. Both 293 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 1: of these discourses have a long history of UM being 294 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: used to erase black radicalism and agency and blame any 295 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: kind of mass resistance on a few outsiders with sinister 296 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 1: ulterior motives, right, or who are in some way behind 297 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: the scenes, Um, you know, in charge of things. Um. 298 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 1: You know, I'm actually gonna if you give me a second, 299 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: I'm gonna take a look at some questions that the 300 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: Joint Terrorism Task Force was asking. Well more looks that up. 301 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: Why don't we take an ad break? Yeah, speaking of 302 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: the Joint Terrorism Task Force, you know who doesn't coordinate 303 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: federal agencies fighting terrorism? Yes? More more, who is the 304 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:33,640 Speaker 1: fine products and services that support Robert's programs. That's right, 305 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 1: that's rights, welcome together everything. We are back, and we're 306 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: talking about friends of the POD, the Joint Terrorism Task Force. So, 307 00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,880 Speaker 1: if you recall it, I think at the very big 308 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 1: thing we were talking about the difficulty that the right, 309 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: the authoritarian right UM has understanding that Antifa is not 310 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: a membership organization with a clear hierarchy that is in 311 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: charge of UH. I guess in charge of anti fascists 312 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 1: and protesters UM. And I think there's a one of 313 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: the ways in which we see this manifest is in 314 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:32,120 Speaker 1: the way that law enforcement interacts with people that they 315 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,919 Speaker 1: perceive as being in some way adjacent to Antifa. And 316 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 1: so over the last couple of weeks of these uprisings 317 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 1: in New York, a number of UM, number of people 318 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 1: who are arrested in the course of their First Amendment 319 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: protected activity UH were pulled aside and questioned by members 320 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,160 Speaker 1: of the NYPD and members of the Joint Terrorism Task Force. 321 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 1: And some of the questions they were asked, or what 322 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 1: do you know about Antifa? Why did you come to 323 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:10,120 Speaker 1: New York City. So this is an interesting assumption that 324 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,199 Speaker 1: the people who have been arrested are not from New 325 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 1: York City? Are you in Antifa? What do you do 326 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: to organize protests? Who told you about the protest? Do 327 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 1: you use social media? Do you follow protests related accounts? 328 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,640 Speaker 1: Who is in charge of the protests? I think that's 329 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,640 Speaker 1: that's that's always the funniest word to be because they're 330 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: all they're all like generally speaking, very kind of like 331 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 1: in mention hierarchy, and they have trouble managing that. You 332 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: could get three thousand thousands of people into the streets 333 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 1: acting in concert without like a dude, right, those questions 334 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 1: are stupid. I mean, minus the New York Park. It's 335 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: like my dogs could be equal of for half of 336 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 1: those Like what I mean? You know, there's a lot 337 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:05,199 Speaker 1: of promise in the social media one. I think it 338 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: should media. Yeah, throw us all in prison for using Twitter, 339 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,360 Speaker 1: including the president. It's it's my devout hope that whomever 340 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 1: was asked whether they use social media just okay boomer 341 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 1: to that cop. Um, no, no, don't okay boomer Cops. Though, 342 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 1: in all seriousness, if any police officer asks you anything, 343 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:31,439 Speaker 1: uh just say I am going to remain silent and 344 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 1: I want to speak to a lawyer. However, attractive an option. 345 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: It might seem to be really snarky. Just don't do it. Yeah, 346 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 1: they can use those tasers for like no reason. That's true. 347 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 1: At least that's one law thing I do know. People 348 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,719 Speaker 1: ask me a lot like, um, when can the police 349 00:25:55,800 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 1: arrest me? Right? And I always say, anyone can be 350 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 1: arrested at any time, for any reason or no reason 351 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 1: at all. Um. The answer is whenever they want to. Um. 352 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 1: That doesn't mean that you're going to end up being 353 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: charged you're convicted. UM. But m important important to keep 354 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,680 Speaker 1: in the back of your mind that there is there 355 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 1: are some ways that you can almost guarantee your arrest, 356 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 1: but there are really no ways to guarantee that you 357 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 1: will not be arrested. The big takeaway here about Trump, however, 358 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 1: whether he's announcing this on Twitter, whether it's coming in 359 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:44,359 Speaker 1: a press conference, you know it. However this information is 360 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 1: being broadcast. What he's doing is not signaling a change 361 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: in law. He's working to cultivate a change in the 362 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,919 Speaker 1: culture of law enforcement, and a change in law is 363 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 1: not necessary for the state to get what they want 364 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: in this case. Right. And this is especially true if 365 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 1: we consider the fact that the state does not need 366 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:21,160 Speaker 1: to prevail in criminal cases or UM find anything damning 367 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: in criminal investigations in order to massively disrupt social movements. Right. Um. 368 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: I think everyone is probably familiar with the J twenty 369 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: cases where more than two hundred people were cattled and arrested, 370 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 1: and the d C circuit, I think tried to tried 371 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:51,879 Speaker 1: to allege a conspiracy among all those people, and you 372 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: know they didn't. They failed spectacularly, as I like to say, 373 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 1: on a technicality, namely that the offendants were innocent. Oh well, 374 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 1: that's unfortunate. Well, I think it's it's critical to think 375 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: that through though, because, as I said, this UM effort 376 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,880 Speaker 1: to indicate that we're you know that Trump is going 377 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:21,479 Speaker 1: to designate a kind of person rather than a type 378 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:26,880 Speaker 1: of conduct as unlawful is going to get him into 379 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 1: trouble for the same reason that the prosecutors in the 380 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 1: J twenty cases ended up running up against trouble because 381 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 1: the very attributes that they were trying to use as 382 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: evidence of a conspiracy, whereas evidence of membership in this 383 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 1: conspiracy or participation in this conspiracy are things like belief, 384 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: style of clothing, presence in a place that are protected 385 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,479 Speaker 1: by the first Amendment and that still matters. Right, doesn't 386 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: mean that it always matters. It doesn't mean that it 387 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 1: matters as much as we might want it to. Um. 388 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: But we do still have the First and Fourth Amendments, 389 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: and trying to criminalize identity as identity without any other 390 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: cover right of of identifying a kind of conduct that 391 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 1: is unlawful is going to end up being hard for them. 392 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: But that said, Okay, they don't prevail in those cases 393 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: in court, but defending criminal cases, dealing with grand jury 394 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: subpoenas um, these are stressful. They take a lot of 395 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 1: energy from movements, they take a lot of resources and 396 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: time from movements. They're frightening for people. Um. They create 397 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: a lot of mistrust within communities. UM. And the fact 398 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: is they really take the wind out of the sales 399 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: of movements because once a single arrest is made, the 400 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: focus is no longer on the message of that movement. 401 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 1: The focus is no longer on whatever that movement was resisting. 402 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 1: It becomes focused now on the criminality of protesters or 403 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 1: the criminality of the people who are seeking a change. 404 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: It becomes focused on individuals within that movement rather than 405 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: a mass movement or a social movement. Or a set 406 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: of ideals, which makes it much more difficult for people 407 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 1: who don't already identify with that movement to see themselves 408 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 1: in it. Right, And so it's not a bad tactic 409 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: for Trump to um really foment this fear of Antifa, 410 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 1: whether or not it has any legal impact. At the 411 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 1: end of the day, we're still going to go through 412 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 1: potentially years of criminal cases, of investigations of media that 413 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 1: totally undermine the capacity of large, broad based movements to 414 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: focus narrowly on whatever it is that you know, in 415 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 1: this case on racial justice. Right, how much does this 416 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: so like one thing that I keep thinking of when 417 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: what I'm thinking about, like the worst case scenario for 418 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 1: all this is the Green scare right where you had 419 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 1: this this kind of burgeoning environmental I don't know what 420 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: you wanna call environmental justice movement that was heavily criminalized 421 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 1: people who are trying to take direct action in order 422 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 1: to stop the some of the stuff that we're all 423 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 1: seeing the consequences of now. Um and the government went 424 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 1: after these people and through a lot of them in 425 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 1: prison for I mean for a lot of them was 426 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 1: the rest of their lives. A ton of them committed 427 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 1: suicide in prison and stuff is terrible, terrible story. Um, 428 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 1: and it kind of it's part of why, at least 429 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: I have some friends who were, you know, activists during 430 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: that period of time and who will credit as kind 431 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: of why things in a lot of ways started from 432 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 1: zero when occupy hit again, because like so much kind 433 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: of institutional memory within our our national protest infrastructure, whatever 434 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 1: you wanna call it, was wiped out by that. UM. 435 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm just interested in your thoughts on 436 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 1: the matter, because I'm sure you're you're you know more 437 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: about what happened than than I do. Uh yeah, I'm uh. 438 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 1: One of my closest friends was incarcerated as a result 439 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 1: of degree and scare, and I one of my clients, 440 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 1: Marius Mason UM was convicted of some offenses that, had 441 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 1: they not been deemed to be politically motivated, Marius would 442 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: have gotten I think seven to ten years. Uh. And 443 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 1: because the judge included a terrorism enhancement UM or enhanced 444 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 1: the sentence as a result of his perception that these 445 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: these um offenses were politically motivated. Um, he's now doing 446 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: I think seven years, right, Um, it might have been 447 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 1: twenty two. I'm sorry. I don't remember right now, but um, 448 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: but he's still in prison um as a result of 449 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: of the terrorism enhancement, right, and so that word terrorism 450 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 1: really does have a devastating impact. Um. Yeah, I think that. Um. 451 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 1: You know, when we look at state repression of movements, 452 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 1: it goes well beyond just our individual clients, um or 453 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 1: the individuals who are being charged criminally charged in that 454 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 1: moment um. The impacts of that sort of echo, right, 455 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:12,239 Speaker 1: and it does function to chill even lawful speech. Yeah, 456 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: that's kind of what I'm that's I'm afraid of. I'm 457 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 1: I'm afraid that I'm angry because it's this you mentioned 458 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 1: gas lighting. I think a little bit earlier feeling that 459 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: way by the state, and I feel that way by 460 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 1: the state and the media when I just look at 461 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:28,840 Speaker 1: how certain things are being covered right now. Like I 462 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 1: think I spent a lot of the time in the 463 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,919 Speaker 1: field with anti fascist activists, and I've i have known 464 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,839 Speaker 1: and seen a number of people do things like chuck 465 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: a bottle or two with the police. I've definitely seen 466 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 1: a lot of windows broken. But the number one thing, 467 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: like the number one activity that like the number one 468 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 1: activity I think I've seen from from anti fascist activists 469 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: has been either handing out free food or what acting 470 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: as a protest medic right like that that those are 471 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:54,879 Speaker 1: those are like the two things that I've seen done 472 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 1: the most um. And I've also had actual real life 473 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 1: terror try to kill me with guns and explosives. Um. 474 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,720 Speaker 1: And the conflation of those two things, and the fact 475 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 1: that so many people in the in national media are 476 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:12,359 Speaker 1: willing to and I'm not just talking about the Fox 477 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 1: News crowd, Like the Fox News crowd kind of enthusiastically 478 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: does it, but so many people outside of Fox News 479 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,839 Speaker 1: and what is supposed to be our credible media, um 480 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 1: at least pay lip service to the fact that these 481 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,200 Speaker 1: might be the same things. And it makes me feel 482 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: like I'm taking crazy pills. Yeah. Well, and it's also Robert, 483 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:32,760 Speaker 1: I want to I want to speak to that because 484 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:39,360 Speaker 1: it does have really serious implications down the road, um legally, 485 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 1: because one of the things that happens is that the 486 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 1: we see this mainstream buy in to this discourse about 487 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:54,760 Speaker 1: antifa or the false equivalency between you know, anti fascist 488 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,840 Speaker 1: protesters and the Charlottesville you know, unite the Right people. 489 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,319 Speaker 1: So part of the danger of this mainstream buy in 490 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,920 Speaker 1: to this discourse about anti fascism and all of the 491 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:10,240 Speaker 1: pearl clushing and horror that are being expressed, I suspect 492 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 1: are way for them to feel like they are preserving 493 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 1: their First Amendment rights and their their ability to protest 494 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:25,239 Speaker 1: in their particular correct, um you know, non violent way, right, 495 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:32,400 Speaker 1: and they're leveraging that discourse of the anti fascist terrorists 496 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:38,399 Speaker 1: or the outside agitator in order to protect their hegemonic 497 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 1: dominance right. But ultimately what they're actually functioning to do 498 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:49,600 Speaker 1: is to provide cover and authority too for law enforcement 499 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 1: to degrade the Bill of Rights as it applies to 500 00:36:55,320 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 1: all people, um, not just antifa, but two any form 501 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 1: of protest. So I think it's actually extremely dangerous that 502 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 1: we have so much mainstream buy in an attempt to 503 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 1: differentiate the good protester from the bad protester, because ultimately 504 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,000 Speaker 1: that is going to come back to bite all of 505 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:28,600 Speaker 1: us in the ass. Yeah. Yeah, I'm a fan of 506 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 1: the thing that's been going around the the graffiti statement 507 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 1: that I've seen at a couple like the chairs, and 508 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,239 Speaker 1: then I think in Nashville when they try to set 509 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:39,440 Speaker 1: up an a ton of the zone, they put it 510 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 1: up to um, no bad protesters, no good cops. UM. 511 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,799 Speaker 1: I do think there's a big misunderstanding from people when 512 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 1: they talk about a diversity of tactics UM, which kind 513 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 1: of came out of I think St. Paul right, UM. 514 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:59,880 Speaker 1: And it's based on this idea that like, UM, you 515 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 1: a variety of different things are needed UM at a protest, 516 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,719 Speaker 1: like not just peaceful protest. And I think everyone's more 517 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 1: or less than the same, but about non violent protests. 518 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:11,759 Speaker 1: But that's not the same as peaceful protests. And that's 519 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,319 Speaker 1: a distinction I do see people trying to make. But 520 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,840 Speaker 1: I also see a lot of people chanting peaceful protests 521 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 1: UM and and blaming anyone who takes direct action on 522 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 1: quote unquote white anarchists UM. Which yeah, And I don't 523 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 1: really know how it's all going to shake out, like 524 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 1: we're in this one of the problems with having a 525 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 1: movement like is currently UM building in the nation where 526 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,560 Speaker 1: you suddenly have more people engaged in activism than I've 527 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 1: ever been doing it in in my lifetime certainly UM 528 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,920 Speaker 1: maybe like real damn briefly before the Iraq war, UM, 529 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,839 Speaker 1: but that was much more geographically sort of contained. Is 530 00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,759 Speaker 1: there's this incredible potential for grifters too, and those grifters 531 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 1: are always going to wind up more or less on 532 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,240 Speaker 1: the side of the state because the police love working 533 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,920 Speaker 1: with the right kind of protesters. Local government loves working 534 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:05,400 Speaker 1: with the right kind of protesters because that neutralizes a 535 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:10,279 Speaker 1: movement that can be dangerous to it. Yeah. Absolutely, Um, 536 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 1: I think it's very dangerous for people to characterize property 537 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 1: damage as violence. There. I mean legally and morally. I 538 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,040 Speaker 1: understand it may be a little easier for people are 539 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:31,200 Speaker 1: more obvious or intuitive for people to recognize that, Um, 540 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:38,160 Speaker 1: property damage does not morally justify police violence. I think 541 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:40,160 Speaker 1: the thing that I would like to make very clear 542 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 1: is property damage does not legally justify police of violence. UM. 543 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,280 Speaker 1: And I think that that is a point that maybe 544 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:53,000 Speaker 1: has been lost a little bit. Yeah. I think a 545 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:57,840 Speaker 1: lot about continuing force and what justifies violence, UM. Because 546 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,640 Speaker 1: I always have a gun on me, UM, and we're, 547 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,280 Speaker 1: for example, somebody to cut the fence in my front 548 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,960 Speaker 1: yard and and grab, um, you know, a set of 549 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,320 Speaker 1: solar panels or something and try to run away with them. 550 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:13,880 Speaker 1: And I were to shoot that person, I would go 551 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,840 Speaker 1: to prison. And I would unless I were maybe in 552 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,839 Speaker 1: the state of Texas. Then it's a little bit. There's 553 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,040 Speaker 1: some I I know there are some times where people 554 00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:24,560 Speaker 1: in Texas have gotten off with some crazy bullshit shooting 555 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,239 Speaker 1: people in the back in their front lawns, but um, 556 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:32,279 Speaker 1: not in most of the country, right, Like, well, it 557 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,320 Speaker 1: depends on who you are. I would like to remind 558 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:40,960 Speaker 1: you about Trayvon Martin. Yes, but you know, it didn't 559 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,640 Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of um what's his name 560 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 1: is the terrible painter? Um who murdered him? George Zimmerman 561 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,640 Speaker 1: didn't a lot of he made that painting. We all 562 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:52,239 Speaker 1: just forget about the time he tried to become a 563 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:57,239 Speaker 1: painter like George W. Bush. I'm sorry, it's just I 564 00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:59,480 Speaker 1: know him as a guy who signed skittle bags and 565 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,640 Speaker 1: sold them on the internet. Yeah, that's probably the worst. 566 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,640 Speaker 1: Not the guy that sold hit the gun he used 567 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:11,080 Speaker 1: on the internet for two I I do remember, though, 568 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:13,480 Speaker 1: when I was looking at sort of like the media, 569 00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:16,759 Speaker 1: how people, particularly in the right wing media, justified what 570 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:18,759 Speaker 1: Zimmerman had done. They all focused on the fact that 571 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:20,960 Speaker 1: there was a struggle, right that, like he was in 572 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:26,319 Speaker 1: fear of his life quote unquote. Um, yeah, so the 573 00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,360 Speaker 1: engagement started over you know, I guess the fear that 574 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 1: Trayvon Martin was robbing things. But Zimmerman's justification was, you 575 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 1: know he was he was in fear of his life, right, Um, 576 00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:41,280 Speaker 1: which I guess is I don't know, Like the police 577 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:43,440 Speaker 1: in my town have said that, like we'll only use 578 00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:46,279 Speaker 1: tear gas, you know, in life threatening situations. But like 579 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,000 Speaker 1: yesterday they determined like some kids put a bike lock 580 00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,560 Speaker 1: on a door, um, and they were like, this is 581 00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:53,880 Speaker 1: threatening the lives of everybody in the building. And it 582 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:57,480 Speaker 1: was like, guys, it's a bike lock and there's like 583 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:02,759 Speaker 1: four hundred of you outside the building, Like it'll be okay. 584 00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:07,640 Speaker 1: I don't know, Sorry, I'm ranting. I mean that usually 585 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:20,799 Speaker 1: means it's time for an ad break, welcome together, everything, 586 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:30,040 Speaker 1: don so, Um, we're back in terms of like I 587 00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:32,480 Speaker 1: since I think we've covered everything at least I had 588 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:34,879 Speaker 1: to say about the Antifa matter, I wanted to talk 589 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:38,960 Speaker 1: a little bit about, um, some some police related stuff, 590 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:40,520 Speaker 1: since I think a lot of folks listening to this 591 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:42,680 Speaker 1: will continue to be engaging in protests and I think 592 00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:44,960 Speaker 1: we'll probably have another big, real big flare up in 593 00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:51,080 Speaker 1: protests probably around August. Um. That's just my my gut feeling. Robert, 594 00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:54,680 Speaker 1: Are you in charge of Antifa and the protests. Well, 595 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,080 Speaker 1: I'm the ombudsman, um so, I actually I am in 596 00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:01,239 Speaker 1: charge of like, uh kind of internal complain points. Um 597 00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:03,520 Speaker 1: so yeah. If you if you have an issue with 598 00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,360 Speaker 1: your local ANTIFA representative or you're not getting your George 599 00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:08,920 Speaker 1: Soros checks, you can drop me a line and I 600 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:12,640 Speaker 1: can can help straighten that out. Good to know. Um, 601 00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:16,600 Speaker 1: I'm curious about the you know, you seem to have 602 00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:20,319 Speaker 1: some inside information about when the protests are, when the 603 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:26,680 Speaker 1: uprisings will dries up, when it's warm, and when everybody's 604 00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:31,040 Speaker 1: unemployment runs out, and when eviction protections expire. That's kind 605 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:36,960 Speaker 1: of my that's my inside intel based on looking at 606 00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:42,600 Speaker 1: what's obviously going to happen. Um yeah, story, yeah, yeah, 607 00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:46,400 Speaker 1: I'll have a fun conversation with the FBI about that, 608 00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:51,480 Speaker 1: I'm sure. Um So, there's like a bunch of questionable 609 00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:53,879 Speaker 1: police activities, and I think it is important to note 610 00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:55,880 Speaker 1: to people, like what you said, they can arrest you 611 00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,239 Speaker 1: for any reason. There's no such thing really as them 612 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:02,719 Speaker 1: um arrest you, like not being able to legally arrest you. 613 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:04,520 Speaker 1: That's just something they get to choose to do. Like 614 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,239 Speaker 1: they can't always charge you. They can't always jail you, 615 00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,920 Speaker 1: but they can always take you into custody. In terms 616 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:13,640 Speaker 1: of like like like like, we all have our like 617 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:15,960 Speaker 1: our list of of advice for how to deal with 618 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,640 Speaker 1: the police if you're stopped in a car or whatever, right, Like, 619 00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:21,080 Speaker 1: there's a lot of videos on that. In terms of 620 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:23,960 Speaker 1: if you are I'm wondering what your advice is to 621 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:27,480 Speaker 1: people who are interacting with the police at protests and 622 00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:29,719 Speaker 1: situations were like you're being kettled or they're trying to 623 00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:31,680 Speaker 1: push a group out of something, and like a riot 624 00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:34,760 Speaker 1: line is advancing on you. If there's like kind of general, 625 00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:39,279 Speaker 1: generally applicable best practices in your head, I'm curious as 626 00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,440 Speaker 1: to what you might say on that. Sure, so I 627 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:46,839 Speaker 1: guess I cannot give legal advice, but I should give information, 628 00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,520 Speaker 1: And what I would say is, um, do your best 629 00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:54,600 Speaker 1: to stay calm. Realize that the police are using arrest 630 00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:58,560 Speaker 1: as a form of crowd control, and if you get 631 00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:03,360 Speaker 1: detained or arrested, you will be searched incident to arrest, 632 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:06,680 Speaker 1: So think about that before you go to a protest. 633 00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:10,040 Speaker 1: There is always a chance that you are going to 634 00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:13,160 Speaker 1: be swept up, at which point you will be arrested, 635 00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:17,720 Speaker 1: at which point you will be searched. And that means 636 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,200 Speaker 1: you probably should not bring anything to a protest that 637 00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,000 Speaker 1: you don't want police officers to look at. And that 638 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:29,840 Speaker 1: doesn't just mean handguns and and drugs. It means maybe 639 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:36,000 Speaker 1: your phone, right, anything that's private you might also want 640 00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:41,400 Speaker 1: to shield from view. UM. So I would advise people 641 00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:45,239 Speaker 1: to encrypt their phone and to not use facial recognition 642 00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:49,280 Speaker 1: or a fingerprint to unlock your phone. Encrypt your phone 643 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:53,480 Speaker 1: and use a passphrase. There are some really great UM 644 00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:58,560 Speaker 1: digital security tutorials on the e f F Electronic Frontier 645 00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:04,960 Speaker 1: Foundation website. UM. There's a lot of good resources at 646 00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:11,960 Speaker 1: mutant Legal dot info. UM. And then if you are arrested, 647 00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:19,520 Speaker 1: you know say very loudly, I am not resisting yea, 648 00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:25,640 Speaker 1: and then uh, let police officers know, you know, whatever 649 00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:29,600 Speaker 1: sort of what we call pedigree information, your name and address. UM, 650 00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:34,839 Speaker 1: they're going to find out eventually, and UM say if 651 00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:37,800 Speaker 1: they try to question you, I am going to remain silent, 652 00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:42,040 Speaker 1: and I want to speak to a lawyer because you 653 00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:46,719 Speaker 1: do have a Fifth Amendment right against compelled self incrimination, 654 00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:49,640 Speaker 1: which means you don't have any obligation to speak to 655 00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:54,600 Speaker 1: law enforcement whatever they tell you. You You have no obligation 656 00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:58,520 Speaker 1: to cooperate in a law enforcement investigation, and it is 657 00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:02,000 Speaker 1: much much safer for you not to speak to police 658 00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:07,000 Speaker 1: officers or federal agents without an attorney present. And you 659 00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:10,040 Speaker 1: do have a right to counsel as well. So once 660 00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:14,120 Speaker 1: you invoke those rights by saying I am going to 661 00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:18,080 Speaker 1: remain silent and I want to speak to a lawyer. 662 00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:23,600 Speaker 1: Once you invoke those rights, you have to then remain silent. 663 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,640 Speaker 1: That's that's the key there. They'll take advantage of the 664 00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:31,319 Speaker 1: natural when someone's friendly to you and nice, even an 665 00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:36,040 Speaker 1: intense situation, particularly actually intense situation, there's a desire to reciprocate. 666 00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:39,320 Speaker 1: You have to not fall for that ship. The friendly 667 00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:42,439 Speaker 1: cops will come out once you're being hauled in, UM, 668 00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:44,720 Speaker 1: and they are trying to get you to talk because 669 00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:49,920 Speaker 1: everything you said, yeah, yeah, that's correct. The other thing is, UM, 670 00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:54,000 Speaker 1: you should not be talking about anything in the moments 671 00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:57,359 Speaker 1: leading up to your arrest or anything about planning an 672 00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:01,040 Speaker 1: action while you are in custody with any of the 673 00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:05,200 Speaker 1: people you've been arrested with on social media to the press. 674 00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:07,879 Speaker 1: Do not talk about this stuff to anyone but your 675 00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:14,520 Speaker 1: lawyer or your doctor or therapist, because ultimately, anything you 676 00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:17,000 Speaker 1: say cannon will be used against you. And that doesn't 677 00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,440 Speaker 1: just mean things that you say directly to police. It 678 00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:22,840 Speaker 1: means things that police can find out. So anything that 679 00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:26,680 Speaker 1: you say publicly, you might as well be saying to 680 00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:33,479 Speaker 1: a police officer. Yeah. Yeah. UM. So I know that 681 00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:39,080 Speaker 1: there's a a sort of pis or it didn't happen mentality. 682 00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:42,839 Speaker 1: This is not one of those situations. UM. I want 683 00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:47,960 Speaker 1: to also tell people, if you need medical attention while 684 00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,799 Speaker 1: you're in custody, or someone else needs medical attention while 685 00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:54,799 Speaker 1: you're in custody, please advocate for yourself or advocate for 686 00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:58,600 Speaker 1: the person who needs medical care. Um. Police have an 687 00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:02,160 Speaker 1: obligation to render medical care to get you to medical 688 00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:05,959 Speaker 1: care if you need it. Um. What we often hear 689 00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:08,600 Speaker 1: is that police will say, oh, it'll take you longer 690 00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:11,480 Speaker 1: to get out of custody, don't worry about it. If 691 00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:15,840 Speaker 1: you need medical care, get medical care. That both because 692 00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:21,600 Speaker 1: both because you deserve medical care and also because you 693 00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:25,959 Speaker 1: need to document your injuries. Yeah. That is the only 694 00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:29,080 Speaker 1: thing you ever say other than I'm you know, not 695 00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:31,880 Speaker 1: going to speak until my lawyer's president or whatever to 696 00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:37,160 Speaker 1: a police officer. Yeah, The other thing I would point out, 697 00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:39,280 Speaker 1: just based on some stuff I've seen recently in Portlands 698 00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:41,920 Speaker 1: during some actions that could interactions that could have gone badly, 699 00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:44,719 Speaker 1: is when you are face to face having a any 700 00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:47,399 Speaker 1: sort of direct interaction with a police officer, never ever, 701 00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:50,240 Speaker 1: ever put your hands in your pockets, not your jacket pockets, 702 00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:55,080 Speaker 1: not your pants pockets, hands visible the entire time, for 703 00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:57,120 Speaker 1: the love of God, don't put your hands in your pockets. 704 00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:00,560 Speaker 1: Don't get anything out of your pocket, like, don't do that. 705 00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:03,319 Speaker 1: I think one of the things that I would say 706 00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,720 Speaker 1: as well is I think it's widely understood now that um, 707 00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:08,880 Speaker 1: we have the right to film police officers in the 708 00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:14,600 Speaker 1: course of their employment. Right, and that's a really important right. Um. 709 00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:16,759 Speaker 1: But you basically have the right to do this within 710 00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:19,799 Speaker 1: a reasonable distance, and the people in charge of the 711 00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:25,160 Speaker 1: definition of reasonable our police officers. So you know, if 712 00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:28,960 Speaker 1: they ask you to back up, I think it's not 713 00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:31,359 Speaker 1: only you know, do you sort of back up as 714 00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:34,879 Speaker 1: little as possible, but narrate what you are doing. Right, 715 00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:38,960 Speaker 1: You can say I'm taking a step back. Anything that 716 00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:41,520 Speaker 1: you're doing in front of a police officer, it may 717 00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:44,880 Speaker 1: be worth considering. Can I narrate what I am currently 718 00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:48,480 Speaker 1: doing UM, so that first of all, so that there 719 00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:51,640 Speaker 1: is a record of it, and also because it it 720 00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:57,160 Speaker 1: may be soothing UM, and and explain to police officers 721 00:50:57,200 --> 00:50:59,799 Speaker 1: that you aren't not a threat because, as UM, I 722 00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:03,680 Speaker 1: think you recently did a podcast about UM, the way 723 00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:08,840 Speaker 1: in which police officers are educated to feel embattled and threatened. 724 00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:15,080 Speaker 1: Being able to UM make clear to law enforcement that 725 00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:18,600 Speaker 1: you are not a threat to them UM can be 726 00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:23,640 Speaker 1: an important step to take. UM. The other thing that 727 00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:26,400 Speaker 1: I would say is, in the same way that we 728 00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:30,279 Speaker 1: don't want you to make public statements UM that are 729 00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:34,520 Speaker 1: basically discoverable by by law enforcement that could be used 730 00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:39,280 Speaker 1: as evidence against you, I would really caution people UM 731 00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:45,239 Speaker 1: to be very circumspect about discussing any unlawful behavior in 732 00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:49,839 Speaker 1: which they themselves have engaged or even that they witnessed, 733 00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:56,080 Speaker 1: because depending on what it is, UM, anyone who ends 734 00:51:56,160 --> 00:52:06,040 Speaker 1: up having knowledge, or even someone who is believed, however incorrectly, 735 00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:10,920 Speaker 1: to have knowledge of a federal offense, can be summoned 736 00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:18,000 Speaker 1: to give testimony before a federal grand jury. And there 737 00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:23,600 Speaker 1: are a bunch of uh absolutely lawful grounds for refusing 738 00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:28,200 Speaker 1: to give testimony before a federal grand jury. UM but 739 00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:33,319 Speaker 1: it requires a great deal of litigation, and that litigation 740 00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:39,960 Speaker 1: is almost always unsuccessful. And the consequence for refusing to 741 00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:45,680 Speaker 1: give UM immunized testimony before a federal grand jury is 742 00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:49,040 Speaker 1: that you can be held in civil or criminal contempt 743 00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:57,920 Speaker 1: and confined in prison. UM. So grand jury subpoenas can 744 00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:04,719 Speaker 1: be extremely disruptive to movements, even and especially if nobody 745 00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:09,680 Speaker 1: collaborates with the grand jury investigation. And you know, I 746 00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:14,279 Speaker 1: know that's a very abbreviated explanation of this. And there 747 00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:17,719 Speaker 1: are a lot of resources about what a grand jury 748 00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:22,239 Speaker 1: is UM and how they work online and some of 749 00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:25,560 Speaker 1: them are at that site that I mentioned before, mutant 750 00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:30,479 Speaker 1: Legal dot info UM, and it's really worth looking into 751 00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:33,440 Speaker 1: those and educating yourself about what a grand jury is 752 00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:37,560 Speaker 1: UM and and how they operate UM. But suffice it 753 00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:41,640 Speaker 1: to say, one of the ways that UM you can 754 00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:48,080 Speaker 1: protect yourself in your community is by not boasting or 755 00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:55,320 Speaker 1: uh speculating about unlawful conduct that that you heard about 756 00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:59,560 Speaker 1: or saw or engaged in, because it puts you at risk, 757 00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:05,480 Speaker 1: and it puts frankly, your entire community at risk. And 758 00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:08,279 Speaker 1: I think that's a pretty good note to end on. 759 00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:13,480 Speaker 1: So please UM listen to the information that Moira has 760 00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:19,080 Speaker 1: provided because I think it's important. UM. And please, UH, 761 00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:26,680 Speaker 1: don't talk to cops as a rule, UM, but if 762 00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:29,200 Speaker 1: you ever are questioned by an FBI agent, don't lie, 763 00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:33,720 Speaker 1: because that is a felony. UM. It is an independent offense. Please. 764 00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:36,840 Speaker 1: One of the reasons that I always tell people, and 765 00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:39,279 Speaker 1: that we always tell people it's much better not to 766 00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:43,880 Speaker 1: speak to federal agents is that if you have a 767 00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:49,280 Speaker 1: constitutional right not to speak to a federal agent, lying 768 00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:55,360 Speaker 1: to a federal agent, even unintentionally, is a federal offense. 769 00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:00,920 Speaker 1: Shower is Where is there anything that you would like 770 00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:05,760 Speaker 1: to plug for you? There is actually, UM. The first 771 00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:08,840 Speaker 1: thing that I would like to plug is the concept 772 00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:13,160 Speaker 1: of not talking to law enforcement. The second thing I 773 00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:18,319 Speaker 1: would like to plug is, uh the concept of only 774 00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:21,719 Speaker 1: using water to get pepper spray and tear gas out 775 00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:25,560 Speaker 1: of your eyes. I would also learn from the people 776 00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:31,200 Speaker 1: in the BOH. I would also like to plug the 777 00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:35,680 Speaker 1: National Lawyers Guild New York City Chapter Twitter account which 778 00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:40,600 Speaker 1: is n LG n y C News and the National 779 00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:47,000 Speaker 1: Lawyers Guild New York City Chapter Instagram account, UH, where 780 00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:54,840 Speaker 1: there are lots of very beautiful UH informational tiles. UM. 781 00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:59,520 Speaker 1: Written by attorneys and designed by amazing black artists and 782 00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:04,600 Speaker 1: graphic designers that you can look at and share. And 783 00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:11,440 Speaker 1: the Twitter handle for that is at n l G 784 00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:16,680 Speaker 1: as in National Lawyers Guild Underscore NYC as in New 785 00:56:16,719 --> 00:56:20,440 Speaker 1: York City. Awesome, thank you for sharing all of that 786 00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:24,560 Speaker 1: with us. Alright, anything you would like to plug before 787 00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:28,480 Speaker 1: give our social meds? No, I've never done anything but 788 00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:31,319 Speaker 1: this exact podcast being recorded right now, Sofie, So I'm 789 00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:34,360 Speaker 1: not sure what I'd even plug. This is the entirety 790 00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:38,719 Speaker 1: of my body of work. Uh well, um, that's fake news. 791 00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:43,239 Speaker 1: But uh. You can follow this podcast at Worst your 792 00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:46,879 Speaker 1: Pod on Twitter and Instagram. You can follow Robert at 793 00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:51,600 Speaker 1: I Right okay on Twitter not Instagram. Robert has a 794 00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:54,480 Speaker 1: new series called Behind the Police, which you can listen 795 00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:57,520 Speaker 1: to in the Behind the Bastards feed where you can 796 00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:00,759 Speaker 1: or we talk about how fucking awful police have been 797 00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:04,839 Speaker 1: since the very very very very very very beginning. And 798 00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:08,719 Speaker 1: h you can follow Katie Stole who's not here at 799 00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:11,600 Speaker 1: Katie Still. You can follow Cody at dr Mr Cody 800 00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:17,920 Speaker 1: and um, you can follow me on Twitter at why 801 00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:21,919 Speaker 1: Underscore Sophie Underscore, Why that was weird and didn't like that, 802 00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:26,360 Speaker 1: but go ahead and follow your heart, yes, out into 803 00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:38,920 Speaker 1: the streets and right once again, don't talk to com 804 00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:50,840 Speaker 1: everything I tried. Dan. Okay, So during this afternoon's recording, 805 00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:55,360 Speaker 1: I managed to say that the clan had a coherent 806 00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:58,720 Speaker 1: set of beliefs, when what in fact I should have 807 00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:04,560 Speaker 1: said is that the clan has a unitary and authoritative 808 00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:12,000 Speaker 1: set of beliefs. I misnamed the jurisdiction in which the 809 00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:17,840 Speaker 1: j twenty prosecutions occurred. I said it was prosecuted in 810 00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:20,760 Speaker 1: the d C circuit. Um. I think what I was 811 00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:25,440 Speaker 1: trying to say was that, um, the U. S. Attorney's 812 00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:33,520 Speaker 1: Office for the District of Columbia prosecuted those cases. So um, again, 813 00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:37,640 Speaker 1: what it should say is that prosecutors from the U. S. 814 00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:42,480 Speaker 1: Attorney's Office in the District of Columbia ran up against 815 00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:46,600 Speaker 1: problems trying to make a case for conspiracy. I think. 816 00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:51,840 Speaker 1: I also managed to refer to the Instagram handle of 817 00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:57,440 Speaker 1: the Analog Underscore NYC account as the Twitter handle, so 818 00:58:57,640 --> 00:59:03,800 Speaker 1: again that should be The Instagram handle is at n 819 00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:09,200 Speaker 1: l G Underscore NYC. Worst Year Ever is a production 820 00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:12,080 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, 821 00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:15,120 Speaker 1: visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever 822 00:59:15,160 --> 00:59:16,520 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.