Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.
Speaker 1: On this week's Thursday Therapy, we have on Pamela Warner.
Speaker 1: So she's the mother of award winning actor Malcolm Jamal Warner,
Speaker 1: famed for his role as Theodora Huxtable on The Cosby Show,
Speaker 1: which we're in for eight seasons. She has a new
Speaker 1: book out about managing kids show biz kids. So let's
Speaker 1: get her on. Hi friend, Hey, good morning. How are you.
Speaker 2: I'm good? How are you?
Speaker 1: I'm good. I'm excited to chat with you because I
Speaker 1: feel like you're The book that is just released, it's
Speaker 1: called The Parenting, A Parent's Guide to Managing show Biz
Speaker 1: Kids has come at a really good time for me
Speaker 1: because I've got I've got two well, i've got three kids,
Speaker 1: but two of them. So my son is five, my
Speaker 1: daughter's eight, and then I've got a three month old.
Speaker 2: But boy, you're busy girl.
Speaker 1: My answer full. And it's so I just got offered
Speaker 1: a movie and there's a role in there where they
Speaker 1: essentially asked like, hey, you know, one of the like
Speaker 1: one of the kids in the movie is she's you know,
Speaker 1: seven years old, your daughter's eight. Would you maybe want
Speaker 1: to consider having your daughter play the daughter role. And
Speaker 1: she's come on set with me since she was a baby.
Speaker 2: You know, it's a rope. She's experienced.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's you know, she gets it. She you know,
Speaker 1: she understands, and she always like brings her like coloring book,
Speaker 1: you know, on the you know, in the hair and
Speaker 1: makeup trailer, and she's just she's grew up on the sets,
Speaker 1: so so she likes them. But there was a piece
Speaker 1: of me that and this just happened last night, Like
Speaker 1: all of this just happened last night, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: I don't know the answer, because just a few weeks ago,
Speaker 1: I had one of probably one of the biggest auditions
Speaker 1: I tested for. It was between me and another girl.
Speaker 1: I ended up not getting it. And listen, in the
Speaker 1: acting world, as you know, you're rejected ninety nine point
Speaker 1: nine percent of the time, right, And most of those
Speaker 1: rejections I get it, you know, and I'm fine with them.
Speaker 1: I audition, I leave the room, I forget about it.
Speaker 1: But the ones where you sign the contract, you get
Speaker 1: really close and you're like, wow, this is going to
Speaker 1: be that big next Desperate Housewives, and I'm this close
Speaker 1: and it's going to change my entire career and then
Speaker 1: when you don't get it. I mean I I probably
Speaker 1: cried for three straight days and just like I'm just
Speaker 1: I'm just a dalist and I suck and like why
Speaker 1: are you? Like, I'm like what do I like? Who
Speaker 1: even am I? I'm like, I'm just nobody and I'm
Speaker 1: never gonna And I'm like, there's that that piece of
Speaker 1: the industry where it just completely makes you feel like
Speaker 1: you are a worthless piece of sh you know.
Speaker 2: Well I do, I understand, and not not me, but
Speaker 2: I remember experiencing this with Malcolm many many years ago,
Speaker 2: and there was a role that he really wanted. It
Speaker 2: was between him and another kid, and he didn't get
Speaker 2: it and he was so despondent. So I mean it
Speaker 2: was just awful and so it broke my heart. And
Speaker 2: I just said to the agent, if he has to
Speaker 2: go through this, and I don't think this is what
Speaker 2: I want to do. Right. He was a child, you know,
Speaker 2: he was a child and he was learning. This is
Speaker 2: just it's just it's part of the business and there's
Speaker 2: no magic anything. It's just it's on such a whim.
Speaker 2: The whole business is, particularly with casting, it's such a
Speaker 2: whim of the person of the gatekeeper. It could be,
Speaker 2: you know, a lock of your hair was out of place,
Speaker 2: who knows, who knows, And I think it's something that
Speaker 2: is can be detrimental to an actor. You have to
Speaker 2: do what you said you normally do, just walk away
Speaker 2: from it. But some things you want more than others,
Speaker 2: more than others, But you have to find a way
Speaker 2: to get over it.
Speaker 1: Because yeah, and I obviously I did. But the piece
Speaker 1: that made me pause last night was like, and I
Speaker 1: know the kids, you know, well, they don't make the teams,
Speaker 1: like someone that we're close with, like their kid didn't
Speaker 1: make the travel him and they're upset. Like I understand
Speaker 1: that's a part of life, right, But I'm also like, well,
Speaker 1: if this is something that she's going to then enjoy,
Speaker 1: I'm like, do I really want this for her? And
Speaker 1: that's where the pause came.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, do you want to? Do you want? But
Speaker 2: this is my book was written for that, for that
Speaker 2: parent who has no idea of anything about show business.
Speaker 2: They don't they don't even know what stage left, stage right,
Speaker 2: They didn't even notice. They have no clue. Right in
Speaker 2: your situation, you're an experienced entertainer, actress and you're a mother,
Speaker 2: and so you have to make a decision. You know,
Speaker 2: you have to make a decision. I remember when the
Speaker 2: decision first came to me about management, because I had
Speaker 2: another manager first initially, and when I had to make
Speaker 2: a decision about him, and then I had to make
Speaker 2: a decision with myself. Do I really want to be
Speaker 2: this in involved? Do I really want to take the
Speaker 2: reins of this? Do I really want to I had
Speaker 2: to do the self evaluation and it came up, yes,
Speaker 2: I do, because I'm the best person for the job
Speaker 2: of the best person to child. You have such an
Speaker 2: advantage because you know the business and she's old enough
Speaker 2: that you can have conversations with her and you can
Speaker 2: talk to her. Now. The other conversation with yourself is
Speaker 2: how much of this will it take away from what
Speaker 2: I want to do? And that's that's a big question.
Speaker 2: How does this impact my career goals and what I
Speaker 2: want to do for myself? And only you can answer that.
Speaker 2: You can say, well, I'll do fifteen percent, or you
Speaker 2: can get a manager. You can get a manager to
Speaker 2: handle that, oversee everything. Because she's a.
Speaker 1: Minor pamely, You're like, I'm a manager, you're like sending
Speaker 1: her tape right now.
Speaker 2: You know they're different. You know, it's all old saying.
Speaker 2: You know, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
Speaker 2: So the final decision making is with you. And how
Speaker 2: will it impact your dreams? How will it impact your dreams?
Speaker 2: Because so many times parents their dreams get put aside,
Speaker 2: and that's that's just the way it is.
Speaker 1: So well, you know in Pamelin, when you say that too,
Speaker 1: I go, My whole world now is just to support
Speaker 1: my children. So like I work to support my children,
Speaker 1: you know, and like that's my yes, Like obviously this
Speaker 1: last role would have been, you know, something that like
Speaker 1: I wanted for me. But everything else I do and
Speaker 1: most of the things I do now is to check
Speaker 1: the box and to support my kids. Have a roof
Speaker 1: over their head, have a good living for them, you know,
Speaker 1: you know, pay pay their house, of their dads, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like I do the things that
Speaker 1: I have to do to support my children, and so absolutely,
Speaker 1: but in their dreams are now I'm excited for their dreams. Now,
Speaker 1: I'm like, what do you want to do? Do you
Speaker 1: want it? So it's like we'll try this for we'll
Speaker 1: do this like, you know, I'm like, whatever we got
Speaker 1: to do to give you the life you know and
Speaker 1: to follow your dreams. And it's like their dreams are
Speaker 1: now they excite me and like what is it?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: But also I go into that, you know, when I
Speaker 1: see your book that you know about show biz, I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh gosh, I'm like, is someone that doesn't moms that
Speaker 1: don't know? Like what are your tips in the book
Speaker 1: for parents that just don't know the industry at all?
Speaker 2: Well, the tips I think are just what I've said
Speaker 2: to you. You got to think about this, think about it,
Speaker 2: do your research, try to understand the business and will
Speaker 2: this fit within your family dynamic? Will it fit for you?
Speaker 2: Is this really something you want your child to be
Speaker 2: involved in? It's it's you have to do your inner
Speaker 2: research and you have to do your online research. Because
Speaker 2: I can't I can't say yes, do this. I can't
Speaker 2: say no, don't do it. It's really up to the parent,
Speaker 2: right what what what works for them? You know what
Speaker 2: so that you can so that you can follow help
Speaker 2: them have their dreams realize. But I was going to
Speaker 2: say with you you also, yes, you're you're doing you're
Speaker 2: you're taking care of your children. But what gets missed
Speaker 2: sometimes is the parent doesn't get taken care of and
Speaker 2: with you know, you have to find a way to
Speaker 2: balance all of that so that you're also fulfilled because
Speaker 2: you're not just a mother. You know, you're you're you're
Speaker 2: all these other things, and you don't want any of
Speaker 2: that stuff to go by the wayside. Luckily, for me,
Speaker 2: I never knew what I wanted to do, so it
Speaker 2: was okay for me to pour all my into making
Speaker 2: Malcolm's dreams come true. And now at this, at this
Speaker 2: stage in my life, oh okay, they're things that I
Speaker 2: want to do, but I no longer I'm not a
Speaker 2: hand I'll always be a parent, but I'm not a
Speaker 2: caretaking parent at this point.
Speaker 1: You know, right, what do you think along the way
Speaker 1: was your Oh I should have done this? Maybe differently
Speaker 1: when it relates back to the show biz piece.
Speaker 2: For me, I think I should have made more. I
Speaker 2: should have done better. I should have done a better
Speaker 2: job at networking.
Speaker 1: I should have interesting.
Speaker 2: Done a better job at forming relationships. I should have
Speaker 2: done a better job of promoting myself as his manager.
Speaker 2: I was very comfortable to kind of be in the
Speaker 2: background and I really wish I had a network more
Speaker 2: and developed certain relationships with people in the industry. I
Speaker 2: didn't do it shyness, being shy, not really understanding what
Speaker 2: networking and these how these friendships can pay off, you
Speaker 2: know later down the line. Didn't understand it because no
Speaker 2: one told me, no one, you should do X, Y
Speaker 2: and Z. And then that's why I wrote the book.
Speaker 2: And as we're talking, I should have put that in
Speaker 2: the book too, but I did. But that could be
Speaker 2: in the workshops. I can say that in the workshops.
Speaker 2: But I think those are the things that I wish
Speaker 2: I could have done. Other than that, I don't think
Speaker 2: there's not much that I would have changed. And even
Speaker 2: in terms of even if I had a dream, it
Speaker 2: was more important for me that he's taken care of,
Speaker 2: that he was taken care of, that my son was
Speaker 2: taken care of. If I had have had a dream,
Speaker 2: I probably would have abdicated that for what I did
Speaker 2: do was to give my full attention to his career
Speaker 2: and his well being.
Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, and I think something else too that you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know if you wrote this in the Boo
Speaker 1: book as well. And of the movies that I've done
Speaker 1: I've I've only seen moms on set with the babies,
Speaker 1: not saying the dad's arm, they're I'm sure they're working
Speaker 1: or you know, handling the house stuff back home or whatever.
Speaker 1: But what I'll say to and again, I'm curious if
Speaker 1: you wrote this in as well, but I feel like
Speaker 1: the moms don't feel like a lot of them, yes,
Speaker 1: I you know, I they don't want to get in
Speaker 1: the way, right and so they maybe not they don't
Speaker 1: feel like they have a voice. So there's certain things
Speaker 1: that have happened on set where I'm like, hey, you
Speaker 1: should that. Don't allow that, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: like and say something about it, because this is you know,
Speaker 1: either past hours or they're not doing something right, or
Speaker 1: it's not good. It's too hot and they're you know whatever.
Speaker 1: Like you you have, you have a voice, and you
Speaker 1: can use that, Like don't don't be like, oh no,
Speaker 1: everything's fine, because I'm like, it's not fine. He's sicks,
Speaker 1: you know, he looks like he's about to pass out
Speaker 1: on set, you know, figured it out, you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: like you could have a voice, you know, And I
Speaker 1: think it's hard. I can imagine it being hard for
Speaker 1: the moms to just feel like, well, they don't want
Speaker 1: to overstep or they don't want to get in the
Speaker 1: way of something. But your child's working like they should.
Speaker 1: They should know that they have a voice to speak
Speaker 1: and use their voice, but you know, not be like
Speaker 1: two overstepping. Right. So it's like the balance, how do
Speaker 1: you do that? Right?
Speaker 2: I think a lot of times people come into a
Speaker 2: situation like that, that's their mindset anyway that they don't
Speaker 2: want to overstep. They'll do that at the market, you
Speaker 2: know what I'm saying at the grocery store that say,
Speaker 2: well maybe I shouldn't you know that? What a person
Speaker 2: that has that that demeanor will have that in any situation.
Speaker 2: So I think that it's once once again it's about research.
Speaker 2: What are the rules and regulations? Go contact the union,
Speaker 2: find out what your rights are, find out what is
Speaker 2: best for the child. Uh, this is where your research
Speaker 2: comes in. I think that I do understand because it's
Speaker 2: so it's so big, and it's so and you don't
Speaker 2: want to make a mistake and you don't want to
Speaker 2: cause a disruption. But as long as you have in
Speaker 2: the forefront of your mind the well being of your child,
Speaker 2: you have to become a mama bear, not not a
Speaker 2: not not a stage mom or someone who is in intenable.
Speaker 2: But you have to protect your child at all, at
Speaker 2: all costs. And if you do see that it is
Speaker 2: too hot, if you do see your child is not
Speaker 2: feeling well, you have you do have to speak up.
Speaker 2: Some people did just that's just not their nature to
Speaker 2: speak up period. But some people, yeah, and even though
Speaker 2: they can see it and feel it and want to,
Speaker 2: they would, they they would, they won't do it. But
Speaker 2: I hope that that the that my book will give
Speaker 2: them a little more impetus to to speak up.
Speaker 1: Sure, Now in all areas of work too, you know
Speaker 1: that shouldn't just yeah, be on that in all areas
Speaker 1: like you should you have a voice, and that should
Speaker 1: be a very known thing. Exactly do you do you
Speaker 1: touch on social media at all? Because now that is
Speaker 1: a totally different showbiz world as well when it comes
Speaker 1: to TikTok and all of that.
Speaker 2: Now, I do not touch on social media because that
Speaker 2: kind of goes across the board. It includes all forms
Speaker 2: of entertainment. And once again, it's about doing your research.
Speaker 2: It's about doing the research and what will work for you.
Speaker 2: I do not I do not explore the whole social
Speaker 2: media because it's a lot. It's a lot, and it's complex,
Speaker 2: and I don't want to give incorrect information. And I
Speaker 2: think that in doing the research, the parent will find
Speaker 2: how that works for them for their child and their family.
Speaker 1: What do you have a favorite memory of your son
Speaker 1: being on the Cosby Show.
Speaker 2: I don't think that there is any one particular thing
Speaker 2: that I can that stands out. I think his overall,
Speaker 2: the way he approached his work on the show, he
Speaker 2: was very serious. He was he was very very present.
Speaker 2: He understood what his responsibilities were as far as in
Speaker 2: that ensemble. He listened and took direction very well. But
Speaker 2: that started at home. You had to listen and you
Speaker 2: and you had to you know, you had to listen
Speaker 2: to what I had to say. If you weren't listening
Speaker 2: and I had to keep repeating, it meant that you
Speaker 2: really were not paying attention to me. So he got that.
Speaker 2: He got that first hand. I think overall, his enjoyment
Speaker 2: of being there, his enjoyment of the show, so there wasn't.
Speaker 2: I think it's his overall time on the show was
Speaker 2: memorable in terms of his approach and how much he
Speaker 2: really did enjoy working on that show. He enjoyed it.
Speaker 1: Do you think any of that, I mean, the stuff
Speaker 1: that happened with Bill obviously, does that Did that come
Speaker 1: in effect just kind of dampen the now looking back
Speaker 1: at the show, or do you still have like are
Speaker 1: you able to separate? Is he able to separate? It too?
Speaker 2: That did not taint our feelings. It did not taint
Speaker 2: any of the time or any of the feelings, the
Speaker 2: good feelings that we had about the show, not in
Speaker 2: any way, Not in any way, because that's that's that's
Speaker 2: what that's his personal, private life. This was worth an
Speaker 2: ensemble cast two different worlds, and it did not change.
Speaker 2: It did not change our relationship with him. It did
Speaker 2: not change our love, admir or respect for him. And
Speaker 2: that was not our that was not our lane. That
Speaker 2: was his lane.
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, yeah, that's good. I was curious how
Speaker 1: that would But that makes sense. It's like one's personal
Speaker 1: and one is you know, you as long as you
Speaker 1: show up to your work and obviously you create a friendship, right,
Speaker 1: So that's that's hard. But at the same time, you know,
Speaker 1: you just have to be in your lane. What do
Speaker 1: you think, what do you want? Like the biggest takeaway
Speaker 1: to be from your book that.
Speaker 2: You are not voiceless, that the voice, and that your
Speaker 2: knowledge is power, and that you I just don't want
Speaker 2: parents to feel lost and just like a babe in
Speaker 2: the woods. I don't want them to feel that way
Speaker 2: because that's the way I felt when I first got
Speaker 2: into the business on this level, before Cosby Show, it
Speaker 2: was an extracurricular activity. It was just something to do,
Speaker 2: you know. I didn't take it seriously. That world was
Speaker 2: not on my radar on any level. But once it
Speaker 2: became a business, and once that show took off I did,
Speaker 2: I was completely and totally lost, and it was it's
Speaker 2: a it's not a good feeling because you're making or
Speaker 2: you don't know if your decision is a career enhancer
Speaker 2: or a career destroyer. You don't know. You just do
Speaker 2: not know, and you don't have any any perspective because
Speaker 2: it's not your world. And so just the just the heart,
Speaker 2: the stone in my heart. Am I doing? Am I
Speaker 2: making the right decision? Am I doing the right thing?
Speaker 2: But I always kept in mind, like I said before,
Speaker 2: what is best for my child? So with my book,
Speaker 2: it gives basics, It gives basic information that some parents
Speaker 2: don't have and just don't know just the basic basic
Speaker 2: things because each situation is different, and so they will
Speaker 2: grow in their own way with their child and their
Speaker 2: child's career. Their child's career is not going to be
Speaker 2: like another child's career or like the career that that
Speaker 2: my child had. You, but there's a foundation and a basics,
Speaker 2: a basis, basics for all of it. And that's what
Speaker 2: I've written, just the basics. The basics. They yeah, but.
Speaker 1: Those basics though, are so important because I think there's
Speaker 1: so many people and even just the people like how
Speaker 1: do I get into acting or how do It's just
Speaker 1: there's just basics on all of it, like you just
Speaker 1: have to you know, you know, especially with a kid.
Speaker 1: I mean again, you have to know what are there?
Speaker 1: You know, what are the standards, what are the rules?
Speaker 1: What is this and what does what does this mean?
Speaker 1: And so because it all is confusing and it's a lot,
Speaker 1: and for someone that doesn't know that world, it's it
Speaker 1: can just be it can be overwhelming. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I've also included a glossary in the book, so there
Speaker 2: are terms so that when someone says whatever you're not
Speaker 2: you know, you can pull your book out and look
Speaker 2: at it.
Speaker 1: Maybe you know absolutely well. I love it. Thank you
Speaker 1: for coming on. Everyone, go get a Parent's Guide to
Speaker 1: Managing Showbiz Kids. It was released on February fifth, so
Speaker 1: go get your copy. Pamela, thank you so much for
Speaker 1: coming on.
Speaker 2: Wine down you and good luck with your career. Thanks baby,
Speaker 2: good one's buddy career.
Speaker 1: Thank you appreciate it, Thank you all right, bye friend,