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Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.

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Speaker 1: On this week's Thursday Therapy, we have on Pamela Warner.

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Speaker 1: So she's the mother of award winning actor Malcolm Jamal Warner,

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Speaker 1: famed for his role as Theodora Huxtable on The Cosby Show,

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Speaker 1: which we're in for eight seasons. She has a new

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Speaker 1: book out about managing kids show biz kids. So let's

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Speaker 1: get her on. Hi friend, Hey, good morning. How are you.

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Speaker 2: I'm good? How are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm good. I'm excited to chat with you because I

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Speaker 1: feel like you're The book that is just released, it's

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Speaker 1: called The Parenting, A Parent's Guide to Managing show Biz

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Speaker 1: Kids has come at a really good time for me

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Speaker 1: because I've got I've got two well, i've got three kids,

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Speaker 1: but two of them. So my son is five, my

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Speaker 1: daughter's eight, and then I've got a three month old.

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Speaker 2: But boy, you're busy girl.

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Speaker 1: My answer full. And it's so I just got offered

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Speaker 1: a movie and there's a role in there where they

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Speaker 1: essentially asked like, hey, you know, one of the like

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Speaker 1: one of the kids in the movie is she's you know,

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Speaker 1: seven years old, your daughter's eight. Would you maybe want

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Speaker 1: to consider having your daughter play the daughter role. And

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Speaker 1: she's come on set with me since she was a baby.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's a rope. She's experienced.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she's you know, she gets it. She you know,

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Speaker 1: she understands, and she always like brings her like coloring book,

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Speaker 1: you know, on the you know, in the hair and

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Speaker 1: makeup trailer, and she's just she's grew up on the sets,

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Speaker 1: so so she likes them. But there was a piece

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Speaker 1: of me that and this just happened last night, Like

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Speaker 1: all of this just happened last night, and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know the answer, because just a few weeks ago,

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Speaker 1: I had one of probably one of the biggest auditions

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Speaker 1: I tested for. It was between me and another girl.

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Speaker 1: I ended up not getting it. And listen, in the

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Speaker 1: acting world, as you know, you're rejected ninety nine point

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Speaker 1: nine percent of the time, right, And most of those

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Speaker 1: rejections I get it, you know, and I'm fine with them.

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Speaker 1: I audition, I leave the room, I forget about it.

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Speaker 1: But the ones where you sign the contract, you get

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Speaker 1: really close and you're like, wow, this is going to

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Speaker 1: be that big next Desperate Housewives, and I'm this close

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Speaker 1: and it's going to change my entire career and then

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Speaker 1: when you don't get it. I mean I I probably

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Speaker 1: cried for three straight days and just like I'm just

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Speaker 1: I'm just a dalist and I suck and like why

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Speaker 1: are you? Like, I'm like what do I like? Who

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Speaker 1: even am I? I'm like, I'm just nobody and I'm

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Speaker 1: never gonna And I'm like, there's that that piece of

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Speaker 1: the industry where it just completely makes you feel like

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Speaker 1: you are a worthless piece of sh you know.

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Speaker 2: Well I do, I understand, and not not me, but

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Speaker 2: I remember experiencing this with Malcolm many many years ago,

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Speaker 2: and there was a role that he really wanted. It

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Speaker 2: was between him and another kid, and he didn't get

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Speaker 2: it and he was so despondent. So I mean it

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Speaker 2: was just awful and so it broke my heart. And

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Speaker 2: I just said to the agent, if he has to

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Speaker 2: go through this, and I don't think this is what

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Speaker 2: I want to do. Right. He was a child, you know,

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Speaker 2: he was a child and he was learning. This is

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Speaker 2: just it's just it's part of the business and there's

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Speaker 2: no magic anything. It's just it's on such a whim.

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Speaker 2: The whole business is, particularly with casting, it's such a

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Speaker 2: whim of the person of the gatekeeper. It could be,

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Speaker 2: you know, a lock of your hair was out of place,

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Speaker 2: who knows, who knows, And I think it's something that

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Speaker 2: is can be detrimental to an actor. You have to

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Speaker 2: do what you said you normally do, just walk away

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Speaker 2: from it. But some things you want more than others,

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Speaker 2: more than others, But you have to find a way

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Speaker 2: to get over it.

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Speaker 1: Because yeah, and I obviously I did. But the piece

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Speaker 1: that made me pause last night was like, and I

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Speaker 1: know the kids, you know, well, they don't make the teams,

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Speaker 1: like someone that we're close with, like their kid didn't

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Speaker 1: make the travel him and they're upset. Like I understand

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Speaker 1: that's a part of life, right, But I'm also like, well,

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Speaker 1: if this is something that she's going to then enjoy,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, do I really want this for her? And

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Speaker 1: that's where the pause came.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, do you want to? Do you want? But

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Speaker 2: this is my book was written for that, for that

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Speaker 2: parent who has no idea of anything about show business.

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Speaker 2: They don't they don't even know what stage left, stage right,

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Speaker 2: They didn't even notice. They have no clue. Right in

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Speaker 2: your situation, you're an experienced entertainer, actress and you're a mother,

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Speaker 2: and so you have to make a decision. You know,

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Speaker 2: you have to make a decision. I remember when the

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Speaker 2: decision first came to me about management, because I had

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Speaker 2: another manager first initially, and when I had to make

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Speaker 2: a decision about him, and then I had to make

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Speaker 2: a decision with myself. Do I really want to be

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Speaker 2: this in involved? Do I really want to take the

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Speaker 2: reins of this? Do I really want to I had

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Speaker 2: to do the self evaluation and it came up, yes,

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Speaker 2: I do, because I'm the best person for the job

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Speaker 2: of the best person to child. You have such an

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Speaker 2: advantage because you know the business and she's old enough

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Speaker 2: that you can have conversations with her and you can

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Speaker 2: talk to her. Now. The other conversation with yourself is

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Speaker 2: how much of this will it take away from what

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Speaker 2: I want to do? And that's that's a big question.

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Speaker 2: How does this impact my career goals and what I

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Speaker 2: want to do for myself? And only you can answer that.

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Speaker 2: You can say, well, I'll do fifteen percent, or you

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Speaker 2: can get a manager. You can get a manager to

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Speaker 2: handle that, oversee everything. Because she's a.

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Speaker 1: Minor pamely, You're like, I'm a manager, you're like sending

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Speaker 1: her tape right now.

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Speaker 2: You know they're different. You know, it's all old saying.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

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Speaker 2: So the final decision making is with you. And how

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Speaker 2: will it impact your dreams? How will it impact your dreams?

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Speaker 2: Because so many times parents their dreams get put aside,

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Speaker 2: and that's that's just the way it is.

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Speaker 1: So well, you know in Pamelin, when you say that too,

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Speaker 1: I go, My whole world now is just to support

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Speaker 1: my children. So like I work to support my children,

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Speaker 1: you know, and like that's my yes, Like obviously this

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Speaker 1: last role would have been, you know, something that like

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Speaker 1: I wanted for me. But everything else I do and

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Speaker 1: most of the things I do now is to check

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Speaker 1: the box and to support my kids. Have a roof

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Speaker 1: over their head, have a good living for them, you know,

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Speaker 1: you know, pay pay their house, of their dads, you

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Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like I do the things that

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Speaker 1: I have to do to support my children, and so absolutely,

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Speaker 1: but in their dreams are now I'm excited for their dreams. Now,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, what do you want to do? Do you

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Speaker 1: want it? So it's like we'll try this for we'll

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Speaker 1: do this like, you know, I'm like, whatever we got

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Speaker 1: to do to give you the life you know and

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Speaker 1: to follow your dreams. And it's like their dreams are

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Speaker 1: now they excite me and like what is it?

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 1: But also I go into that, you know, when I

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Speaker 1: see your book that you know about show biz, I'm like,

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Speaker 1: oh gosh, I'm like, is someone that doesn't moms that

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Speaker 1: don't know? Like what are your tips in the book

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Speaker 1: for parents that just don't know the industry at all?

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Speaker 2: Well, the tips I think are just what I've said

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Speaker 2: to you. You got to think about this, think about it,

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Speaker 2: do your research, try to understand the business and will

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Speaker 2: this fit within your family dynamic? Will it fit for you?

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Speaker 2: Is this really something you want your child to be

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Speaker 2: involved in? It's it's you have to do your inner

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Speaker 2: research and you have to do your online research. Because

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Speaker 2: I can't I can't say yes, do this. I can't

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Speaker 2: say no, don't do it. It's really up to the parent,

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Speaker 2: right what what what works for them? You know what

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Speaker 2: so that you can so that you can follow help

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Speaker 2: them have their dreams realize. But I was going to

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Speaker 2: say with you you also, yes, you're you're doing you're

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Speaker 2: you're taking care of your children. But what gets missed

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Speaker 2: sometimes is the parent doesn't get taken care of and

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Speaker 2: with you know, you have to find a way to

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Speaker 2: balance all of that so that you're also fulfilled because

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Speaker 2: you're not just a mother. You know, you're you're you're

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Speaker 2: all these other things, and you don't want any of

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Speaker 2: that stuff to go by the wayside. Luckily, for me,

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Speaker 2: I never knew what I wanted to do, so it

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Speaker 2: was okay for me to pour all my into making

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Speaker 2: Malcolm's dreams come true. And now at this, at this

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Speaker 2: stage in my life, oh okay, they're things that I

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Speaker 2: want to do, but I no longer I'm not a

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Speaker 2: hand I'll always be a parent, but I'm not a

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Speaker 2: caretaking parent at this point.

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Speaker 1: You know, right, what do you think along the way

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Speaker 1: was your Oh I should have done this? Maybe differently

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Speaker 1: when it relates back to the show biz piece.

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Speaker 2: For me, I think I should have made more. I

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Speaker 2: should have done better. I should have done a better

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Speaker 2: job at networking.

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Speaker 1: I should have interesting.

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Speaker 2: Done a better job at forming relationships. I should have

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Speaker 2: done a better job of promoting myself as his manager.

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Speaker 2: I was very comfortable to kind of be in the

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Speaker 2: background and I really wish I had a network more

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Speaker 2: and developed certain relationships with people in the industry. I

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Speaker 2: didn't do it shyness, being shy, not really understanding what

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Speaker 2: networking and these how these friendships can pay off, you

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Speaker 2: know later down the line. Didn't understand it because no

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Speaker 2: one told me, no one, you should do X, Y

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Speaker 2: and Z. And then that's why I wrote the book.

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Speaker 2: And as we're talking, I should have put that in

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Speaker 2: the book too, but I did. But that could be

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Speaker 2: in the workshops. I can say that in the workshops.

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Speaker 2: But I think those are the things that I wish

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Speaker 2: I could have done. Other than that, I don't think

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Speaker 2: there's not much that I would have changed. And even

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Speaker 2: in terms of even if I had a dream, it

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Speaker 2: was more important for me that he's taken care of,

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Speaker 2: that he was taken care of, that my son was

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Speaker 2: taken care of. If I had have had a dream,

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Speaker 2: I probably would have abdicated that for what I did

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Speaker 2: do was to give my full attention to his career

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Speaker 2: and his well being.

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Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, and I think something else too that you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you wrote this in the Boo

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Speaker 1: book as well. And of the movies that I've done

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Speaker 1: I've I've only seen moms on set with the babies,

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Speaker 1: not saying the dad's arm, they're I'm sure they're working

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Speaker 1: or you know, handling the house stuff back home or whatever.

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Speaker 1: But what I'll say to and again, I'm curious if

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Speaker 1: you wrote this in as well, but I feel like

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Speaker 1: the moms don't feel like a lot of them, yes,

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Speaker 1: I you know, I they don't want to get in

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Speaker 1: the way, right and so they maybe not they don't

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Speaker 1: feel like they have a voice. So there's certain things

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Speaker 1: that have happened on set where I'm like, hey, you

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Speaker 1: should that. Don't allow that, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 1: like and say something about it, because this is you know,

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Speaker 1: either past hours or they're not doing something right, or

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Speaker 1: it's not good. It's too hot and they're you know whatever.

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Speaker 1: Like you you have, you have a voice, and you

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Speaker 1: can use that, Like don't don't be like, oh no,

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Speaker 1: everything's fine, because I'm like, it's not fine. He's sicks,

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Speaker 1: you know, he looks like he's about to pass out

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Speaker 1: on set, you know, figured it out, you know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: like you could have a voice, you know, And I

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Speaker 1: think it's hard. I can imagine it being hard for

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Speaker 1: the moms to just feel like, well, they don't want

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Speaker 1: to overstep or they don't want to get in the

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Speaker 1: way of something. But your child's working like they should.

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Speaker 1: They should know that they have a voice to speak

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Speaker 1: and use their voice, but you know, not be like

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Speaker 1: two overstepping. Right. So it's like the balance, how do

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Speaker 1: you do that? Right?

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Speaker 2: I think a lot of times people come into a

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Speaker 2: situation like that, that's their mindset anyway that they don't

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Speaker 2: want to overstep. They'll do that at the market, you

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Speaker 2: know what I'm saying at the grocery store that say,

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Speaker 2: well maybe I shouldn't you know that? What a person

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Speaker 2: that has that that demeanor will have that in any situation.

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Speaker 2: So I think that it's once once again it's about research.

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Speaker 2: What are the rules and regulations? Go contact the union,

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Speaker 2: find out what your rights are, find out what is

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Speaker 2: best for the child. Uh, this is where your research

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Speaker 2: comes in. I think that I do understand because it's

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Speaker 2: so it's so big, and it's so and you don't

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Speaker 2: want to make a mistake and you don't want to

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Speaker 2: cause a disruption. But as long as you have in

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Speaker 2: the forefront of your mind the well being of your child,

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Speaker 2: you have to become a mama bear, not not a

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Speaker 2: not not a stage mom or someone who is in intenable.

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Speaker 2: But you have to protect your child at all, at

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Speaker 2: all costs. And if you do see that it is

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Speaker 2: too hot, if you do see your child is not

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Speaker 2: feeling well, you have you do have to speak up.

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Speaker 2: Some people did just that's just not their nature to

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Speaker 2: speak up period. But some people, yeah, and even though

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Speaker 2: they can see it and feel it and want to,

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Speaker 2: they would, they they would, they won't do it. But

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Speaker 2: I hope that that the that my book will give

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Speaker 2: them a little more impetus to to speak up.

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Speaker 1: Sure, Now in all areas of work too, you know

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Speaker 1: that shouldn't just yeah, be on that in all areas

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Speaker 1: like you should you have a voice, and that should

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Speaker 1: be a very known thing. Exactly do you do you

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Speaker 1: touch on social media at all? Because now that is

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Speaker 1: a totally different showbiz world as well when it comes

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Speaker 1: to TikTok and all of that.

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Speaker 2: Now, I do not touch on social media because that

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Speaker 2: kind of goes across the board. It includes all forms

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Speaker 2: of entertainment. And once again, it's about doing your research.

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Speaker 2: It's about doing the research and what will work for you.

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Speaker 2: I do not I do not explore the whole social

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Speaker 2: media because it's a lot. It's a lot, and it's complex,

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Speaker 2: and I don't want to give incorrect information. And I

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Speaker 2: think that in doing the research, the parent will find

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Speaker 2: how that works for them for their child and their family.

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Speaker 1: What do you have a favorite memory of your son

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Speaker 1: being on the Cosby Show.

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Speaker 2: I don't think that there is any one particular thing

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Speaker 2: that I can that stands out. I think his overall,

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Speaker 2: the way he approached his work on the show, he

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Speaker 2: was very serious. He was he was very very present.

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Speaker 2: He understood what his responsibilities were as far as in

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Speaker 2: that ensemble. He listened and took direction very well. But

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Speaker 2: that started at home. You had to listen and you

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Speaker 2: and you had to you know, you had to listen

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Speaker 2: to what I had to say. If you weren't listening

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Speaker 2: and I had to keep repeating, it meant that you

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Speaker 2: really were not paying attention to me. So he got that.

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Speaker 2: He got that first hand. I think overall, his enjoyment

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Speaker 2: of being there, his enjoyment of the show, so there wasn't.

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Speaker 2: I think it's his overall time on the show was

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Speaker 2: memorable in terms of his approach and how much he

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Speaker 2: really did enjoy working on that show. He enjoyed it.

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Speaker 1: Do you think any of that, I mean, the stuff

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Speaker 1: that happened with Bill obviously, does that Did that come

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Speaker 1: in effect just kind of dampen the now looking back

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Speaker 1: at the show, or do you still have like are

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Speaker 1: you able to separate? Is he able to separate? It too?

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Speaker 2: That did not taint our feelings. It did not taint

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Speaker 2: any of the time or any of the feelings, the

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Speaker 2: good feelings that we had about the show, not in

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Speaker 2: any way, Not in any way, because that's that's that's

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Speaker 2: what that's his personal, private life. This was worth an

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Speaker 2: ensemble cast two different worlds, and it did not change.

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Speaker 2: It did not change our relationship with him. It did

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Speaker 2: not change our love, admir or respect for him. And

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Speaker 2: that was not our that was not our lane. That

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Speaker 2: was his lane.

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Speaker 1: You know, yeah, yeah, that's good. I was curious how

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Speaker 1: that would But that makes sense. It's like one's personal

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Speaker 1: and one is you know, you as long as you

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Speaker 1: show up to your work and obviously you create a friendship, right,

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Speaker 1: So that's that's hard. But at the same time, you know,

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Speaker 1: you just have to be in your lane. What do

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Speaker 1: you think, what do you want? Like the biggest takeaway

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Speaker 1: to be from your book that.

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Speaker 2: You are not voiceless, that the voice, and that your

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Speaker 2: knowledge is power, and that you I just don't want

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Speaker 2: parents to feel lost and just like a babe in

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Speaker 2: the woods. I don't want them to feel that way

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Speaker 2: because that's the way I felt when I first got

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Speaker 2: into the business on this level, before Cosby Show, it

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Speaker 2: was an extracurricular activity. It was just something to do,

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Speaker 2: you know. I didn't take it seriously. That world was

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Speaker 2: not on my radar on any level. But once it

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Speaker 2: became a business, and once that show took off I did,

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Speaker 2: I was completely and totally lost, and it was it's

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Speaker 2: a it's not a good feeling because you're making or

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Speaker 2: you don't know if your decision is a career enhancer

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Speaker 2: or a career destroyer. You don't know. You just do

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Speaker 2: not know, and you don't have any any perspective because

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Speaker 2: it's not your world. And so just the just the heart,

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Speaker 2: the stone in my heart. Am I doing? Am I

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Speaker 2: making the right decision? Am I doing the right thing?

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Speaker 2: But I always kept in mind, like I said before,

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Speaker 2: what is best for my child? So with my book,

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Speaker 2: it gives basics, It gives basic information that some parents

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Speaker 2: don't have and just don't know just the basic basic

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Speaker 2: things because each situation is different, and so they will

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Speaker 2: grow in their own way with their child and their

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Speaker 2: child's career. Their child's career is not going to be

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Speaker 2: like another child's career or like the career that that

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Speaker 2: my child had. You, but there's a foundation and a basics,

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Speaker 2: a basis, basics for all of it. And that's what

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Speaker 2: I've written, just the basics. The basics. They yeah, but.

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Speaker 1: Those basics though, are so important because I think there's

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Speaker 1: so many people and even just the people like how

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Speaker 1: do I get into acting or how do It's just

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Speaker 1: there's just basics on all of it, like you just

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Speaker 1: have to you know, you know, especially with a kid.

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Speaker 1: I mean again, you have to know what are there?

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Speaker 1: You know, what are the standards, what are the rules?

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Speaker 1: What is this and what does what does this mean?

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Speaker 1: And so because it all is confusing and it's a lot,

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Speaker 1: and for someone that doesn't know that world, it's it

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Speaker 1: can just be it can be overwhelming. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I've also included a glossary in the book, so there

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Speaker 2: are terms so that when someone says whatever you're not

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Speaker 2: you know, you can pull your book out and look

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Speaker 2: at it.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you know absolutely well. I love it. Thank you

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Speaker 1: for coming on. Everyone, go get a Parent's Guide to

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Speaker 1: Managing Showbiz Kids. It was released on February fifth, so

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Speaker 1: go get your copy. Pamela, thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: coming on.

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Speaker 2: Wine down you and good luck with your career. Thanks baby,

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Speaker 2: good one's buddy career.

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Speaker 1: Thank you appreciate it, Thank you all right, bye friend,