1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,040 Speaker 1: What a pleasure it is to talk to ln Hey Chenny. 2 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: He's a candidate for California State Controller. Fellow with the 3 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: Hoover Institution, Director of Domestic Policy Studies at Stanford University. 4 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:12,960 Speaker 1: Is a day job. Lon. He welcome, How are you happy? Friday? 5 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: Gonna be with you both. Yeah, we don't want to 6 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: spend our valuable time with you on just this topic, obviously, 7 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: and there'll be plenty of time to discuss it. But 8 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 1: first thoughts. When you hear that Trump is running, I 9 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 1: don't think it should be surprising. I think it's something 10 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: he's talked about doing. The two thousand campaign is going 11 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:33,599 Speaker 1: to be very interesting because fundamentally, it's going to be, 12 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 1: in my mind, a question of do you want, uh, 13 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: you know, two politicians of the past, right, you have 14 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: people who are in their seventies, I think late seventies, 15 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 1: or do you want, you know, a fresh vision? And 16 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:46,559 Speaker 1: I think both parties are going to have to struggle 17 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 1: with that question because you know, it's very hard if 18 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:52,919 Speaker 1: if President Biden decides to run for reelection, which who 19 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: knows if he does or not, that's gonna be sort 20 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: of very difficult for people in his party. Then to 21 00:00:58,320 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: turn around and say, well, we want to go with 22 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: someone else. It's very hard to turn out an income 23 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: in president in that way. Uh. And then on the 24 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:06,040 Speaker 1: flip side, Republicans have to ask a question do they 25 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: want to pass or do they want something new? So 26 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 1: it's going to be a fascinating contest. Both sides are 27 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 1: going to have to deal with those generational questions as 28 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: well as questions of whether the politics of the past 29 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:16,839 Speaker 1: or the politics of the future, or what they want. 30 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: All right, we uh, as Jack said, had plenty of 31 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: time to talk about that in the days and weeks 32 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: to come. God help us. Um I happen to come 33 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 1: across a couple of articles today, Lani that that dealt 34 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: with California, But these are universal questions. They have to 35 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: do with programs, in this case dealing with homelessness in 36 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: which there are various auditors, like in Oakland or in 37 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: the state saying, hey, we spent a tremendous amount of 38 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: money on this program, and the percentage of people that 39 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: actually helped is very, very low. And this is I 40 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: think this is a huge topic that doesn't get discussed 41 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: nearly enough. How does accountability for money spent work in government? 42 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: And how should it work. Well, that's a great question 43 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: right now. I don't know that it does quite honestly. 44 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: I think the problem you have is that you've got 45 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: certain people who occasionally decide that they want to demonstrate 46 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: accountability when an election comes near, and so they go 47 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: and they you know, maybe run an auditor. They answer 48 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 1: a few questions, and they try and make it seem 49 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: as though they are being responsive to taxpayers. There doesn't 50 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 1: tend to be a unified function in many places. Now California, 51 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 1: which is an obviously state where I am and where 52 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: I'm running for state controller. That is the job of 53 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: the state controller. The state controller is supposed to be 54 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: the head audit official for the state, and it's supposed 55 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: to consolidate and and really give to taxpayers consolidated as 56 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:41,239 Speaker 1: well as unified information on how state spending is being 57 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: applied to address these various challenges. Homelessness is a great example. 58 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: You know, we really struggle with that in California. We've 59 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: seen the problem get a lot worse over the last 60 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:50,919 Speaker 1: couple of years, and it's certainly not for a lack 61 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:53,920 Speaker 1: of spending. We've spent you know, somewhere between ten and 62 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: twenty billion dollars over the last couple of years on homelessness, 63 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 1: only to see that problem get worse. Now, occasionally we 64 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: get a glimpse at how bad this spending is, because 65 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: the City of Los Angeles will produce a report, for example, 66 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: that shows that a cost of construction per unit of 67 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: housing per homeless individual is eight thousand dollars, and everybody says, 68 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: holy crap, how is that possible? Yeah, that's shocking, right, 69 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 1: And then you'll hear the city of Oakland say something, 70 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: in the city of San Francisco say something. And really, 71 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: that responsibility needs to fall to a single official or 72 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: at least you know, one or two officials in the 73 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 1: state to be identifying where the money is going, but 74 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 1: more importantly, to be talking about the efficacy or lack 75 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: there over that spending. So accountability is not just a 76 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: buzz word. It shouldn't just be a buzzword. People need 77 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: to live that out on a daily basis. Given how 78 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: much money in taxes we spend in many of our states, 79 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: as well as at the federal level. Well, and it's 80 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: astounding and horrifying that while business and every responsible family 81 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: spends a lot of time virtually every day thinking about 82 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: all right, what are we spending money on and what 83 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: are we getting for it? The fact that government seems 84 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: to be excused completely from asking those questions. I mean, 85 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 1: if you could, somehow, as an expert in public policy, 86 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 1: whether in California or the United States, get that idea 87 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: to take hold, I mean, my god, I'd be in 88 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: favor of a Nobel prize for you in an Olympic 89 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 1: gold medal, and maybe former religion around your grammy grammy certainly, 90 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: because the fact that that's missing from public conversation is shocking. Yeah, 91 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: and uh, it is thrown around as a buzzword, and 92 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 1: I think there's never really any activity taken to move 93 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: the ball forward in terms of how do we actually 94 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 1: advance that kind of accountability. I mean, you know, many 95 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 1: states have this this idea of you know, you can 96 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: go online and you can see the states checkbook, for example. 97 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: I was talking to a couple of state auditors the 98 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: other day about the best practices that they apply in 99 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 1: their states, and they say, listen, you know, we want 100 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: to be as transparent as possible. Obviously, not all states 101 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: do this. California doesn't do this. Um, you can't go 102 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: online and see where you're mo is being spent, and 103 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:03,839 Speaker 1: that would be like, you know, if the bank just 104 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: decided to wake up one day to bank wherever you bank, 105 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 1: and they said, you know, we're not We're not going 106 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: to show you your transactions. You just have to trust 107 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: that that it's being spent in the way you say 108 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 1: it's being spent. That's essentially what these states like California 109 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: are asking us to do. And I think at some 110 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: point people have it, you know, they just that taxpayers 111 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: say enough is enough, and they say, you know, we 112 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 1: want accountability. I hope that that enough is enough comes 113 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 1: Tuesday when we have our election. But I also know 114 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: that this is a long term project. This is a 115 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: long term effort to try and bring accountability and responsibility 116 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: and fiscal thoughtfulness to what we're doing. Because we cannot 117 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: keep throwing good money after bad and not solving problems. 118 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: We just can't keep doing it. How do how do 119 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 1: you break out of the conundrum of if a government 120 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: program gets started and doesn't work, the answer always seems 121 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 1: to be to throw more money at it, which doesn't 122 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:56,840 Speaker 1: happen in the private world obviously. Yeah, and it's this 123 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,479 Speaker 1: is always this is something that I find managing is 124 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: when I hear, for example, the governor Gavin Newsom talk 125 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: about issues in California and he says, well, we're doing great, 126 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: We're spending more money, and it's like, no, no, no no, no, 127 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: you don't understand. The measure of success is not whether 128 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: you spend more money. The measure of successes are you 129 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 1: solving the problem? If you think about this, you know, 130 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 1: I've met with a bunch of small business owners over 131 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,279 Speaker 1: the last several months and they all say the same thing, 132 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:22,359 Speaker 1: which is, if we're going to invest a certain amount 133 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:24,799 Speaker 1: of money in something, whether it's new, a new piece 134 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: of equipment, or a new employee or whatever it is, 135 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:29,840 Speaker 1: we're gonna want to make sure we're investing in them 136 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: and seeing what our return on investment is training, new equipment, etcetera. 137 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: And and everybody does this, right, It's just a basic concept, 138 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: but in government, nobody ever stops to say, hey, maybe 139 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: we should be looking at what our return on invested 140 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 1: capital has been. Does it make sense for us to 141 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: keep spending on programs that are hugely inefficient and effective 142 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 1: that don't solve the problem. I think we would all 143 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 1: agree that if you had a program that was actually working, 144 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 1: sure spend money on it. Let's make sure we're doubling 145 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: down on things that work. But nobody ever stops and says, hey, 146 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: is this working or not? Right? And so I just 147 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 1: want to bring a different mindset, and I think there 148 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: are others around the country who want us as well. Hey, 149 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 1: let's just bring a mindset to the job of is 150 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: this working or not? And if it's working, great, If 151 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,559 Speaker 1: it's not, knock at all? Oh amen to that. Lanai 152 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: Chen with the Hoover Institution, Stanford University running for a 153 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: state controller in California. Hey, are you willing to say, Alani? 154 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: He uh, what states you think do well on these things? 155 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: Good transparency, good accountability? Yeah? You know several years ago 156 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 1: the state of Idaho. Excuse yeah, Idaho is one of them. 157 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: Was a mentioned Ohio first, but both Ohio and Idaho 158 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: are good examples. In Ohio many years ago, guy named 159 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: Josh Mandel, the former state treasurer who went on to 160 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: run for a couple of different offices. When he was treasurer, 161 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: he put in place a lot of accountability practices as 162 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 1: well as transparency portals and transparency kind of tools that 163 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: have been very, very helpful in maintaining accountability in that state. 164 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: Idaho is a much smaller state obviously, but they have 165 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: a similar mindset and have really applied technology well. In fact, 166 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: I talked to a technology for it or a few 167 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,239 Speaker 1: days ago who is working with the state of Idaho 168 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: and a few other states around the country. Smaller states 169 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: to be sure, but states around the country to bring 170 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: to bear kind of these best transparency practices. For example, 171 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: once a government expenditure happens, it gets posted within seventy 172 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 1: two hours. Great idea, Right, it's our money, and once 173 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: you spend it, let us know within seventy two hours, 174 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: and then that prevents the kinds of shenanigans that you 175 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 1: get where billions and billions of dollars go out the door, 176 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: like we had in California and unfortunately many other states 177 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: nationally a hundred and sixteen billion dollars in unemployment insurance 178 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:37,440 Speaker 1: fraud during COVID, thirty billion of it in California. That 179 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:39,439 Speaker 1: wouldn't have happened if we had a seventy two rule. 180 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 1: People would have seen, Hey, why is Scott Peterson getting 181 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: a check? Why is Diane Feinstein getting a check? This 182 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: is kind of weird, Like these are the sorts of 183 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 1: things basic. This is like, I'm not this is not 184 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: rocket science, right, this is not doesn't require a PhD 185 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: in molecular physics to figure out how to do this 186 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: very basic. Let's just get it done. And the reason 187 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: why these guys don't with the reason why these guys 188 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: and gals like to keep people in the dark is 189 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: because they thrive off of being the ones to hold 190 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: the information so that they can say no, no, no, no, 191 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: we need to spend more money because I have the 192 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: information and you don't. And you know that's just not 193 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: the way that should work. Are you buying a powerball ticket? 194 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: I actually have bought a couple of powerball tickets over 195 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 1: the last couple of months, but to no one's surprised, 196 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: I have not been successful. Okay, so you can do math. 197 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: So that's good for your position because it's unlikely that 198 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: you know, um, uh and uh. You're the only Republican 199 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 1: in memory that all of these major liberal newspapers have endorsed. 200 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: So clearly you should run for governor. Would you like 201 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: to announce that now or are you gonna wait until 202 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:51,079 Speaker 1: you're done being controller? Believe me, Believe me, I am. 203 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 1: I am so focused on trying to get this over 204 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 1: the finish line on the day that I can't even 205 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:57,199 Speaker 1: I can't even think about what I'm gonna have for breakfast. 206 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: But you're not ruling it out. We're just I'm doing 207 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: the whole No no, no, no no. Clearly, clearly he's 208 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 1: angling for the presidency, Jackis. I'll tell you something that's right. 209 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: I'm actually running to be global monarch. Beautiful name high 210 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 1: Lanie Lannie Chen Kennedy for California State Controller. It's always stimulating. 211 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: Thanks for the chat. Hey, thanks you guys. You got it. 212 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: So as you heard, he didn't say no um Art 213 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: Strong and Getty