1
00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:13,320
Speaker 1: This is me eat podcast coming at you shirtless severely

2
00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:18,319
Speaker 1: bug bitten in my case underwear listening Hunt podcast, you

3
00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:22,600
Speaker 1: can't predict anything presented by on X. Hunt creators are

4
00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:26,160
Speaker 1: the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters. Download the

5
00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:29,440
Speaker 1: Hunt app from the iTunes or Google play store, nor

6
00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:36,640
Speaker 1: where you stand with on X real quick before people

7
00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:38,920
Speaker 1: listen to the show, I want to make it feel

8
00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:42,760
Speaker 1: like they're being super constructive. And how would we do that? Well,

9
00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:45,479
Speaker 1: we would have your honest tell this story. You like that?

10
00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:50,479
Speaker 1: I set that up? I did, Um, which story do

11
00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:52,760
Speaker 1: you want me to tell about the I've got a

12
00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:57,320
Speaker 1: couple of them guy getting shot? Okay, what do you

13
00:00:57,320 --> 00:00:58,959
Speaker 1: mean you got a couple of them? Well, we were

14
00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,200
Speaker 1: just earlier talking about the weasel in your yard. Yeah,

15
00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:04,200
Speaker 1: but how does that make people feel constructive? That's just

16
00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:07,039
Speaker 1: something in your yard. They don't own your yard. When

17
00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:09,280
Speaker 1: I'm talking about the shot they getting shot. Thing would

18
00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:13,759
Speaker 1: show like how this how this program saves lives? Okay,

19
00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:17,080
Speaker 1: I'm reading up though right now? How much does anybody

20
00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:21,800
Speaker 1: in this room know? How much one unit of blood is? Point?

21
00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:29,120
Speaker 1: I don't know, yes, roughly the equivalent of one point

22
00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:35,000
Speaker 1: about five million leaders. Good job. So we had a

23
00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:41,880
Speaker 1: podcasts a while back which was number Brody You Were Here,

24
00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,160
Speaker 1: I Was Not Here? Episode one two called Bleeding Out

25
00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:54,320
Speaker 1: and uh a fella rode in um Joey. Joey wrote

26
00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:58,200
Speaker 1: in to say that this podcast saved his father's life.

27
00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:01,760
Speaker 1: Now this podcast you here or not You do you

28
00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,400
Speaker 1: want to give a quick rundown of what went down

29
00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:07,960
Speaker 1: on that podcast? Well, we had our buddy Dr Alan Lazar,

30
00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:13,720
Speaker 1: who's an emergency room doctor and uh that's correct, also

31
00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:17,360
Speaker 1: a hunter in Detroit and Detroit. He had been helping

32
00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:22,120
Speaker 1: us out with various research questions and uh so Steve

33
00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:24,840
Speaker 1: decided to have him out because he's an interesting dude.

34
00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:29,320
Speaker 1: And uh one of his main points was that all

35
00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:33,440
Speaker 1: hunters and fisherman too probably should be carrying around a

36
00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,160
Speaker 1: tourniquet in the woods because if you get cut bad,

37
00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,000
Speaker 1: that's really the only thing that's going to save your life. Yeah,

38
00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:43,480
Speaker 1: and he go ahead, Well he had mentioned everybody thinks like, well,

39
00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,400
Speaker 1: I'll just jury rig one, right, do you know that

40
00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:49,840
Speaker 1: it's okay to say Jerry Rigg and jury Rigg. No.

41
00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,600
Speaker 1: I looked it up. People think, wow, does jury rig one?

42
00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:56,839
Speaker 1: He's like by the time you jury rig one, you're dead.

43
00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:02,079
Speaker 1: Your buddy's dead. How's it okay to say Jerry rig am?

44
00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,720
Speaker 1: I not thinking that it's the same like kind of

45
00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:07,160
Speaker 1: like it's a negative like, isn't it doesn't it come

46
00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:11,400
Speaker 1: from Jerry's kids and doing it the wrong way? That's

47
00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:15,760
Speaker 1: what I always understood. If that's the case, I'm not

48
00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:17,679
Speaker 1: I don't say it anyway. Is If that's the case,

49
00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:19,240
Speaker 1: I definitely wouldn't say it. But you think it has

50
00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:26,919
Speaker 1: to do with Jerry Lewis telephone? Uh? Yeah, Where does

51
00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,160
Speaker 1: Jerry Rick come from? I just thought it was people.

52
00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:35,760
Speaker 1: Just Jerry can come from? Jerry can. It's a good one.

53
00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:39,600
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's not a jury can No jury

54
00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:46,200
Speaker 1: rig who seth you know the type he's just sitting

55
00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:48,120
Speaker 1: over there watching this. Well you were the one that

56
00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:50,120
Speaker 1: says that you found out that it's okay to say

57
00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,680
Speaker 1: about so I want to know why that isn't And

58
00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:56,840
Speaker 1: then it's we should just I don't mean okay, like

59
00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:03,440
Speaker 1: socially okay that that that that the source I looked

60
00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:07,560
Speaker 1: at accepts both. Now it wasn't making a moral it

61
00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:11,800
Speaker 1: wasn't anyways, you're dead by the time, like if you're

62
00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:13,840
Speaker 1: gonna go, like run back to your truck and get

63
00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,560
Speaker 1: whatever you come back. Your buddy's dead, that's right. And

64
00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:21,360
Speaker 1: he's got like a national campaign going on. Uh right,

65
00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:23,880
Speaker 1: it's called Stop the Bleed. A bunch of e R

66
00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,919
Speaker 1: doctors going around and uh educating people about how to

67
00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:32,120
Speaker 1: stop bleeding better. Right. Yeah. Yeah, And he convinced all

68
00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:34,960
Speaker 1: of us to start packing tourniquets. Yeah, I had never

69
00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:37,560
Speaker 1: done mine. Finally made it from my desk, the tourniquets

70
00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:39,920
Speaker 1: they left me or you gave them to me too,

71
00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:42,479
Speaker 1: into my back my daily backpack, which I guess is

72
00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:44,000
Speaker 1: better than at my desk. But now I'm gonna take

73
00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:45,839
Speaker 1: one and put one of my turkeys. He was trying

74
00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:51,080
Speaker 1: to fancy new turniquet out yesterday. It's a belt that

75
00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:56,479
Speaker 1: you wear. It's pretty aggressive, but yeah, you'd have a belt.

76
00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:00,200
Speaker 1: Your belt is a tourniquet. Your belt can be deployed aid,

77
00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,760
Speaker 1: so you would always just have it on. Well, just

78
00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:06,480
Speaker 1: so happens that in this story Joey writes in about

79
00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:09,599
Speaker 1: he used his belt as a tourniquet. They were out

80
00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:15,840
Speaker 1: pheasant hunting. I believe in uh Colorado, Kansas, maybe some

81
00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,400
Speaker 1: some place that has a lot of pheasants and uh,

82
00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,000
Speaker 1: to cut this story a little bit shorter, they get

83
00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:23,880
Speaker 1: to a spot where they're giving their dogs some water

84
00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:29,440
Speaker 1: and uh, Joey's dad is in front of one of

85
00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:33,600
Speaker 1: the other hunters guns and the hunter's guns gun goes off.

86
00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,520
Speaker 1: It's a twelve gauge and approximately eight yards and catches

87
00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:42,760
Speaker 1: him in the ribs, abdomen and uh, one of his

88
00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:48,080
Speaker 1: arms pretty bad bleeding. Um. They immediately realized it's bad.

89
00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:52,039
Speaker 1: They call UH. It takes fifty minutes for them to

90
00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:55,760
Speaker 1: get for help to get there. I think Joey did

91
00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:57,760
Speaker 1: a good job with his story. I like the way

92
00:05:57,800 --> 00:05:59,760
Speaker 1: that he explained this part right here. He said when

93
00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,359
Speaker 1: he was looking at the blood, he's a big deer hunter,

94
00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:04,919
Speaker 1: and he said, if I was tracking a deer and

95
00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,520
Speaker 1: saw this much blood, I'd be expecting that deer to

96
00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,960
Speaker 1: be dead or just around the corner. He said, it

97
00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,360
Speaker 1: was like spurting right. Yes, that's a great detail. Yeah,

98
00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:19,040
Speaker 1: great detail like that. And they're on snow to which

99
00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,360
Speaker 1: always makes it makes it look like there's more blood.

100
00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:27,520
Speaker 1: It makes you think you're gonna find deer that you don't. Yeah. Um.

101
00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:30,839
Speaker 1: So anyways, he's saying that they had started a tourniquet

102
00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,159
Speaker 1: with some ripped clothing shreads. One of the other hunters

103
00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,400
Speaker 1: had well, he had just recently two weeks prior, listened

104
00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:42,119
Speaker 1: to episode one two leading out, and he remembered three

105
00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:46,480
Speaker 1: key points. One, nobody ties a tourniquets tight enough. Two,

106
00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:49,880
Speaker 1: tying a tourniquet does not necessarily mean that the limb

107
00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,400
Speaker 1: will be lost. And three, when tying the tourniquet, it's

108
00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:55,960
Speaker 1: necessary to go as far up the limb as possible.

109
00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:59,240
Speaker 1: So he took off his belt, put it way up

110
00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:04,840
Speaker 1: his dad's arm, and cranked on it. Um. He made

111
00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:08,159
Speaker 1: it to the hospital. He received fourteen units of blood,

112
00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:12,800
Speaker 1: which we now know is uh roughly fourteen points and

113
00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:15,760
Speaker 1: how many doesn't could that possibly be true? How many

114
00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:20,800
Speaker 1: points does a human body hold? Seth come on eight

115
00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,840
Speaker 1: eight to twelve, So they might it might have been

116
00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:30,320
Speaker 1: more blood than his in your body losing they was

117
00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:36,000
Speaker 1: pumping it in. I think I'm not calling the brother liar.

118
00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:39,320
Speaker 1: This is hard to fathom. Okay, Well, let's just say

119
00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:43,920
Speaker 1: it was tanned and not fourteen. Um. Yeah, it doesn't

120
00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:49,480
Speaker 1: say like a pipe and an out pipe. The hospital

121
00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:55,040
Speaker 1: complimented him many times on the quality and application of

122
00:07:55,080 --> 00:08:00,760
Speaker 1: his tourniquet all principles uh that he learned on a podcast.

123
00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:05,920
Speaker 1: So there you go, man, good job. Listen to the

124
00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:12,520
Speaker 1: media podcast might save someone's life, especially episode one nine. Yep, now,

125
00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:15,840
Speaker 1: uh real quick, Johnny, tell about the wheel quick. So

126
00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:20,680
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get a little background, okay, Uh, well, just

127
00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,840
Speaker 1: telling about the weasels. I was gonna talk about how

128
00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:29,240
Speaker 1: I can't get permission on your property and whatnot. Yeah, well,

129
00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,800
Speaker 1: my gal just loves loves the wildlife more alive than dead.

130
00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:37,360
Speaker 1: Sometimes she loves them more in a way. In a

131
00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:39,920
Speaker 1: way because there's a long list of things on your

132
00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:43,360
Speaker 1: property that are on the goal list or they are

133
00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:45,880
Speaker 1: on the okay list. Listen, Yeah, as soon as they

134
00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:49,800
Speaker 1: took out a chicken or two and the ermine long

135
00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,400
Speaker 1: tail weasel, it'd be game on. You know, Like we

136
00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:57,319
Speaker 1: had some squirrels attack in the house. This winner, she's

137
00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:03,120
Speaker 1: out there with the hunting them. You know, she said

138
00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:05,760
Speaker 1: a babe pile for those squirrels, but she didn't. I

139
00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:09,160
Speaker 1: think she got a shot off but she missed. But

140
00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:12,080
Speaker 1: later I think one day I had come home, you know,

141
00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:13,600
Speaker 1: you know, you pulping my driveway. You can kind of

142
00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:15,719
Speaker 1: see past the back of the house. I look down there,

143
00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:17,640
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, what is that wondering what that squirrels

144
00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:19,520
Speaker 1: doing there? I get a little closer and he just

145
00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:22,439
Speaker 1: sitting there, munching away on whatever she'd put out, some seeds.

146
00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:24,520
Speaker 1: So I went inside, I got the twenty two and

147
00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:31,000
Speaker 1: dispatched him. She uh even almost declared war on a fox.

148
00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,720
Speaker 1: What she did? She killed the fox. Okay, so don't

149
00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:42,280
Speaker 1: give me the whole wildlife thing. Uh So it's pretty

150
00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:44,640
Speaker 1: cool on these ermans around because you get to see

151
00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,280
Speaker 1: him hunting every now and then, maybe once or twice

152
00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:51,240
Speaker 1: a winter. And we have a decent, contentent population that

153
00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,720
Speaker 1: lives in and around the house, and the erman's usually hunting.

154
00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:58,319
Speaker 1: I've never seen anything besides the cotton tail. Anyways. The

155
00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:00,600
Speaker 1: other morning i'm up, must have been this this weekend.

156
00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,839
Speaker 1: It's snow and there's like three or four inches of

157
00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:06,360
Speaker 1: fresh snow, and I see a bunny rabbit hopping around

158
00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:10,000
Speaker 1: our plow truck. Watch him for a minute, go away,

159
00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:13,520
Speaker 1: come back, he's hopping around. And then next thing I

160
00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:15,920
Speaker 1: see is I see like the tumble the bunny sort

161
00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:19,880
Speaker 1: of tumbling erratically down our driveway, which immediately because I've

162
00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:22,200
Speaker 1: seen it before. Means that he and the ermine are

163
00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:24,960
Speaker 1: locked together and the ermins trying to grab by the

164
00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,520
Speaker 1: neck and suffocate it, and they're tumbling away. Now I've

165
00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:31,280
Speaker 1: seen this two or three other times. The bunny rabbit

166
00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:33,920
Speaker 1: always gets away, so they kind of go out of

167
00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,560
Speaker 1: view over kind of the crest of the hill, and

168
00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:39,319
Speaker 1: I wait for a bit, don't see him come back.

169
00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:41,320
Speaker 1: Maybe five or ten minutes later, and a little farther

170
00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:43,160
Speaker 1: down the driveway, I can just see a dark spot

171
00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:46,920
Speaker 1: and I can see a magpie like five ft away.

172
00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,120
Speaker 1: So I grab the grab the buyos and I look

173
00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:53,160
Speaker 1: down there and like it's actually two dark spots because

174
00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:58,200
Speaker 1: the white ermine is bisecting the cotton tail rabbit. And

175
00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:00,840
Speaker 1: now he's just sitting there. Then a rabbit was still

176
00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:03,319
Speaker 1: alive a little bit. He was sort of the ermine

177
00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:06,880
Speaker 1: was finishing off. But it's amazing how fast and magpies were.

178
00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:08,600
Speaker 1: They're sort of like, all right, we're gonna get our

179
00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:12,360
Speaker 1: peace too. Well, as long as I watched, he fended

180
00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:17,200
Speaker 1: off the magpies and eventually drug the bunny rabbit into

181
00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,400
Speaker 1: the sort of hawthorn and thicket, and I couldn't see

182
00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:21,800
Speaker 1: him I didn't. I don't want to go. I wanted

183
00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:23,920
Speaker 1: to go investigate, but I didn't want to go disturb

184
00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,960
Speaker 1: his you know, peace and his kill. So I didn't know.

185
00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,280
Speaker 1: I don't know if the magpies eventually end up getting

186
00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:31,640
Speaker 1: a chunk or not. But uh, he drug him out

187
00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:36,600
Speaker 1: of the road and into the Hawthorne the Erman. Yeah,

188
00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:40,040
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know. Fourteen inch really, that's a

189
00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:42,240
Speaker 1: good one. I just had to throw a number at it. Well,

190
00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,200
Speaker 1: we wanted one because we wanted we want one to

191
00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:50,600
Speaker 1: get tanned. We want one big exemplary specimen to get tanned. Um,

192
00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:53,640
Speaker 1: we want to collect up addition to stuff, we want

193
00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:58,240
Speaker 1: to collect up one of all furbears. Uh as a

194
00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:03,319
Speaker 1: little project. We're out. We got our big one because

195
00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:05,520
Speaker 1: we were out that. I don't think I told this story.

196
00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:08,319
Speaker 1: Me and my kid walk out of my friend's ranch

197
00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:10,640
Speaker 1: house and he's like, there's a coyote. There's a coyote,

198
00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:13,520
Speaker 1: And I look, I don't see an kyote. So now

199
00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:15,960
Speaker 1: I'm a little bit annoyed. I'm like, dude, you know,

200
00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:20,560
Speaker 1: don't just be like crying out that you see stuff. Yeah,

201
00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,319
Speaker 1: but your boy usually doesn't. He's got a good game. Out, Well,

202
00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,280
Speaker 1: check this out, So I mean, not thirty seconds goes by.

203
00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:28,920
Speaker 1: He turns and looks the other way and yells, there's

204
00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:31,679
Speaker 1: a weasel. Now you can go like a long time

205
00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:36,240
Speaker 1: without seeing a weasel. So then I lay into him.

206
00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:42,320
Speaker 1: I'm like, James, you gotta and I'm like yelling at him.

207
00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,600
Speaker 1: This weasel runs back across the road the other direction,

208
00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:47,719
Speaker 1: and he runs over there. It's a little for ten

209
00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:49,480
Speaker 1: and the reason went down in the hole and I

210
00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,520
Speaker 1: started doing one of those like making mouse noises with

211
00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:56,520
Speaker 1: your hand. He popped his head right back out of

212
00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:01,480
Speaker 1: the hole and Jimmy got him nice tanker. But then

213
00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,880
Speaker 1: in skinning it, I broke The whole thing is in

214
00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:08,800
Speaker 1: skinning the tail. I have a tail stripper that's used

215
00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:11,240
Speaker 1: for like getting the tailbone out of tails. Um, but

216
00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:13,319
Speaker 1: it didn't have a fine enough it doesn't have like

217
00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:18,280
Speaker 1: a weasel setting, and I tried to flub it and

218
00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:21,280
Speaker 1: broke the end of the damn tail off a little tip.

219
00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:27,680
Speaker 1: So I'm My wife's annoyed because she doesn't like it,

220
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:32,680
Speaker 1: this whole thing. Um. I was like, we just need one,

221
00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:35,480
Speaker 1: and she's like, well, here's your one. I'm like yeah,

222
00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:37,160
Speaker 1: but the tail is broken now, so I might just

223
00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:41,800
Speaker 1: stitch the tailback on Winners, kind of winding down. Michael

224
00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:46,319
Speaker 1: Chamberlain special guest here today. Oh one last thing? Are you? Um?

225
00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:49,960
Speaker 1: Are you doctor Michael Chamberlain. Okay? I like that that

226
00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,000
Speaker 1: kind of adds, that kind of builds that resume here.

227
00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,120
Speaker 1: Just call me Mike on the show. You just want

228
00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:56,000
Speaker 1: to go by Mike. Yeah, only my wife and my

229
00:13:56,080 --> 00:14:02,040
Speaker 1: mother called me Michael. Dr Michael chamber Uh. Wild turkey researcher. Yep.

230
00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:03,720
Speaker 1: But I got one last point I want to before

231
00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:09,640
Speaker 1: we get into that. We're good on weasels great. Um,

232
00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:11,360
Speaker 1: one last thing I want to mention, and this has

233
00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:13,000
Speaker 1: to do with turkeys. You know, when you're hunting turkeys,

234
00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:16,679
Speaker 1: you don't use a blind. It's called running and gunning. Uh.

235
00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:20,160
Speaker 1: A guy we're talking about on social media. We had

236
00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:22,160
Speaker 1: a thing up about like when you guys don't where

237
00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:26,400
Speaker 1: you're from, you don't ice fish and ice fishing. There's

238
00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:27,960
Speaker 1: a thing now and then where you just strike off

239
00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:35,440
Speaker 1: across the lake drilling thousand holes. Right. Um, it's the

240
00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:37,720
Speaker 1: ice fish and equivalent of like walking along the bank,

241
00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,440
Speaker 1: casting all over the damn place, and you call it

242
00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:45,560
Speaker 1: hole hopping. Prospecting. Um what else you call it? Taking

243
00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:48,040
Speaker 1: a poke, taking a few pokes whatever, You just like

244
00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:50,600
Speaker 1: leave your area to start drilling holes all over the

245
00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:52,760
Speaker 1: damn place and see what's going on. And a guy

246
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,560
Speaker 1: in Canada said, in Canada, that's called running and gunning,

247
00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:02,800
Speaker 1: which I thought was because it's the gun. Um. Okay,

248
00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:07,800
Speaker 1: how to turkey researcher? You're affiliated with the university University

249
00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:12,040
Speaker 1: of Georgia. How does lay out? How that happens? Did

250
00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:16,920
Speaker 1: you become a official turkey researcher hard work and good luck?

251
00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:19,440
Speaker 1: Did you grow up hunting turkeys? I did? I did.

252
00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:21,960
Speaker 1: I grew up in Virginia as a suburban kid that

253
00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,400
Speaker 1: got to hunt on saturdays with his dad. Uh. We

254
00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:28,400
Speaker 1: had a fall season that was actually as popular as

255
00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:32,120
Speaker 1: the spring season then, so we actually learned the turkey

256
00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:36,120
Speaker 1: hunt during the fall, calling them. Yeah, you'd you'd actually

257
00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,400
Speaker 1: go and bust the flocks up, just walk until you

258
00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:40,720
Speaker 1: run across the flock. Did you use a dog to

259
00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:43,720
Speaker 1: scour him up? Sometimes? And as soon as the dog

260
00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:45,840
Speaker 1: would flush or you would flush the birds, you just

261
00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:48,040
Speaker 1: sat down where they flushed from and start calling. And

262
00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,360
Speaker 1: usually the juvenile birds were the first ones to come

263
00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,200
Speaker 1: back off in Jake's So you bust them up and

264
00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:55,680
Speaker 1: they all fly in different directions. I want to know

265
00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:57,960
Speaker 1: about the busting them up because I keep thinking I'm

266
00:15:58,040 --> 00:15:59,600
Speaker 1: gonna gonna go out and do that. Some want to

267
00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,800
Speaker 1: know you see them up like fifty year a hundred

268
00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:05,880
Speaker 1: yards out right, we would actually like running and yelling

269
00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,320
Speaker 1: at them. Well, what we would do is get up

270
00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,320
Speaker 1: on high ground on ridges and call well you would, yeah,

271
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:13,520
Speaker 1: and as soon as you could get a response, you

272
00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:16,440
Speaker 1: just start moving towards them until you could see them,

273
00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,560
Speaker 1: and then you take off running. Now I didn't know

274
00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,200
Speaker 1: there was like a locating components. So you're like really

275
00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,200
Speaker 1: deliberately heading out to do this. Yes, yes, it's not

276
00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:27,400
Speaker 1: like opportunistic and it's it's a bit on the redneck

277
00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:31,760
Speaker 1: side because there you are running through the eastern hardwood forest,

278
00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,040
Speaker 1: you know, wide open, trying to bust these birds just

279
00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:40,120
Speaker 1: a shooting, no, just just just running and they would

280
00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:43,160
Speaker 1: usually they would flush like quail. A lot of them

281
00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:45,920
Speaker 1: would go in one direction, but the ones that did not,

282
00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:48,840
Speaker 1: they were money. How close would you have to get

283
00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:52,040
Speaker 1: to flush them just to really break it just depended.

284
00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:54,520
Speaker 1: We used to do the same thing in Pennsylvania. Yeah,

285
00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:56,920
Speaker 1: that was popular in a popular way to I can

286
00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:58,840
Speaker 1: thought when you opened your mouth next it would be

287
00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:03,560
Speaker 1: to tell us about jewelry. Agin No, just find anything out. Yeah,

288
00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,320
Speaker 1: it's had two research projects. Well yahni covered the one.

289
00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:14,520
Speaker 1: Um jury rigged means something was assembled quickly with materials

290
00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:19,399
Speaker 1: on hand and jerry built this says, or jerry rigged

291
00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,720
Speaker 1: means it was cheap or poorly built. But what does

292
00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:28,439
Speaker 1: it say that does it give the etymology? Free folks

293
00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:31,520
Speaker 1: at home. The etymology of a word is sort of

294
00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:33,679
Speaker 1: how it came to. What am I trying to say?

295
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:41,639
Speaker 1: There was? It's the words history origin. Yeah, the Wikipedia

296
00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:46,760
Speaker 1: says it's origin lies in such efforts done on boats

297
00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:53,480
Speaker 1: and ships, sail powered boats. M hmm, Kenny, how what

298
00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,560
Speaker 1: were you saying? Seth um, No, I I cut my

299
00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:58,560
Speaker 1: teeth on Turkey hunting in the fall of the same

300
00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:02,000
Speaker 1: exact way. Just walking. We used to like get a

301
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,200
Speaker 1: group of guys, just walk until you find them. That's

302
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,680
Speaker 1: how we did it too. Spring hunting was not. Fall

303
00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,560
Speaker 1: hunting was way more popular in Pennsylvania than sing hunting.

304
00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:16,800
Speaker 1: Really before the world. That's true when I was a

305
00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:21,200
Speaker 1: kid before that. Turkey population blew up. There's really only

306
00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:23,800
Speaker 1: turkeys in the mountains, like down by where Seth lived,

307
00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,240
Speaker 1: and fall hunting was the way people hunted him Seth

308
00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:30,199
Speaker 1: from the mountains. Yeah, man, yeah, that's exactly how I

309
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,720
Speaker 1: grew up. Yeah, it was people like it just was

310
00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:36,840
Speaker 1: not as popular the spring hunting where the spring is limited,

311
00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,760
Speaker 1: and that's why it was just gaining popularity at that time.

312
00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:43,240
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, but you grew up where there always

313
00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,960
Speaker 1: were turkeys. Yeah, it was just not as popular. It

314
00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:50,560
Speaker 1: wasn't it as the thing that it is now. And

315
00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:53,160
Speaker 1: now you know, of course it's done a complete script

316
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,960
Speaker 1: flip if you will, and spring hunting is it's hugely popular,

317
00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,280
Speaker 1: and fall huntings declining and you know most of the state. Yeah,

318
00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:05,240
Speaker 1: I'm so, we're like basically the same age. My grandfather

319
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,040
Speaker 1: still to this day will take fall turkey hunting over

320
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,960
Speaker 1: anything else. It's like his favorite thing to do. Well,

321
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:12,320
Speaker 1: you don't have to figure out if it's a male

322
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:16,840
Speaker 1: or female in most places. Okay, so you guys are

323
00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:21,200
Speaker 1: systematic though, Climp on the ridge, located group the flock,

324
00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:26,200
Speaker 1: take off running, and then just talk about the use

325
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,840
Speaker 1: of the dogs. Because I got a a friend of

326
00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,000
Speaker 1: mine from back home from high school. He's got a

327
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:34,840
Speaker 1: turkey dog trained up to bust him. You just probably

328
00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:37,199
Speaker 1: get a more effective bust with something as fast as

329
00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:40,399
Speaker 1: a dog. Absolutely, So the dog would run into the flock,

330
00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,920
Speaker 1: scatter the birds in all directions, and then you sit down,

331
00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:45,960
Speaker 1: put a coat over the dog, or put the dog

332
00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:50,000
Speaker 1: behind you, and and start yelping. And usually, like I said,

333
00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:53,920
Speaker 1: the birds that scattered by themselves, they would immediately come

334
00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,880
Speaker 1: back to you. And you're so the call you're making

335
00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,359
Speaker 1: is called a kiki. Yeah, just a ki ki and

336
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,199
Speaker 1: a you a real raspy yelp. Anything that would make

337
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:06,280
Speaker 1: you think, make those birds think it was mom, because

338
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:08,360
Speaker 1: most of those birds that scattered were I mean, they

339
00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,400
Speaker 1: were juveniles, got you. So anything that would bring those

340
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,960
Speaker 1: birds back to you, Well, what what? What is the difference?

341
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,760
Speaker 1: I never understood this. There's a kiki and a kiki run?

342
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,880
Speaker 1: Is that not true? You hear people refer to them

343
00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:24,840
Speaker 1: as it's basically just this this you know kiki ki

344
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:27,680
Speaker 1: ki call that that birds make when they're younger. Oh

345
00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,040
Speaker 1: so just different words from the same thing. I think

346
00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,359
Speaker 1: it's the same thing. I didn't know if it was

347
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:36,040
Speaker 1: a difference in kikikiki run, And that kind of originates

348
00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:38,480
Speaker 1: from you know, when you when you scatter poults in

349
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:41,639
Speaker 1: the summer, you'll hear the poults start whistling that kiki

350
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,080
Speaker 1: ki ki ki, and you know, and mom will start putting, clucking, trying,

351
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:47,479
Speaker 1: you know, so she doesn't they do it, but she

352
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:49,919
Speaker 1: doesn't do it. She can do it, she can't do

353
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:53,159
Speaker 1: the whistle. Turkeys have all sorts of vocalizations. Show me

354
00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:55,680
Speaker 1: the sound, like if you let's hear you are you're

355
00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,560
Speaker 1: hunting the fall, you you bust up a group of turkeys,

356
00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:00,359
Speaker 1: Show me a sound that would be like sound that

357
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:15,600
Speaker 1: would be effective? Huh, But you'd call a bird in

358
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,879
Speaker 1: the spring like that. Yeah, it's basically. I mean, all

359
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,040
Speaker 1: you're trying to do is say, hey, here I am.

360
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,040
Speaker 1: That's them collecting up. Yeah, come back over here. Everything's

361
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:26,760
Speaker 1: good when it's not. I got a buddy that used

362
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,880
Speaker 1: to get Hans that way. Really, he would bust Hans up.

363
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,240
Speaker 1: He lived not far from here. He would bust Hans up.

364
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,720
Speaker 1: And I don't know what vocalization they have. Um, I've

365
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,040
Speaker 1: probably heard it, but then it's a whistle. If memory

366
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,400
Speaker 1: stirs and that's spent several years. He would bust them

367
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:43,520
Speaker 1: up and hide and start doing that, and eventually you'd

368
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:48,800
Speaker 1: start drawing him back in mhm. Yeah, because they make

369
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,320
Speaker 1: that raspy kind of cackling. Yeah, it's like, get on

370
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:53,280
Speaker 1: the ground and start running. Yeah, there's a bunch of

371
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,840
Speaker 1: my neighborhood and I hear it all the time. If

372
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:58,159
Speaker 1: you bust them up, they you'll hear him all in

373
00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:02,560
Speaker 1: different directions making that noise. So you guys did that

374
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,680
Speaker 1: growing up? Absolutely? Did you know? Were you like? Man?

375
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:10,720
Speaker 1: When I get old, I'm gonna be a turkey biologist. No. Now.

376
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,359
Speaker 1: I went to Virginia Tech just wanted to be a

377
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,840
Speaker 1: you know, a game ward and wildlife biologist, wildlife manager.

378
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:19,680
Speaker 1: And next thing you know, I ended up in grad

379
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:25,000
Speaker 1: school at Mississippi State and realized research was was kind

380
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,439
Speaker 1: of my thing and got the opportunity to stay on

381
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,280
Speaker 1: and do a PhD. And the project that I studied

382
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,480
Speaker 1: when I was a master student was a turkey project.

383
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:37,400
Speaker 1: I was basically I didn't play in the study turkeys.

384
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:41,080
Speaker 1: I just ended up in this project and became infactuated

385
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,760
Speaker 1: with the bird and their biology. What was the project?

386
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,960
Speaker 1: It was just studying turkeys in the Mississippi Delta, just

387
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,359
Speaker 1: flood prone areas, didn't know a lot about the birds

388
00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:54,960
Speaker 1: in that area. Um, I got to get my you know,

389
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 1: feetwet if you will. And then my PhD program was

390
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,240
Speaker 1: actually looking at predation on turkeys. So I was studying

391
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,719
Speaker 1: turkeys using radio telemetry, but then I also put collars

392
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 1: on coyodes, bobcats, gray foxes, raccoons and studied how all

393
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:15,080
Speaker 1: those species interact with turkeys. And then I landed in Academia,

394
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 1: which was just fortuitous. What year was was that going

395
00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 1: on that you were doing that that initial research, uh

396
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,720
Speaker 1: through Do you feel that at that time there was

397
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,840
Speaker 1: a lot of low hanging fruit from turkey research because

398
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:34,720
Speaker 1: the country had gone so long without that many turkeys around. Yeah, that, man,

399
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 1: that was the heyday. I mean, turkeys were exploding everywhere.

400
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,959
Speaker 1: They were being restored throughout their range and beyond, as

401
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 1: you know, and the research that was ongoing was grabbing

402
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,960
Speaker 1: low hanging fruit, partially because we could answer those questions

403
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 1: with the technology we had at the time. And there

404
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 1: were studies everywhere. There were there were research projects and

405
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 1: all sorts of states, you know, you know, multiple universities

406
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 1: had work on going. And then all of a sudden

407
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,120
Speaker 1: around two thousand to two thousand three, it just kind

408
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:10,400
Speaker 1: of started stagnating. And I think part of that was complacency.

409
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,399
Speaker 1: You know, there were birds everywhere, they seem to be

410
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 1: doing well. People harvest was increasing, and at least in

411
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 1: most of the Eastern United States, and agencies stopped putting

412
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:22,919
Speaker 1: research money into turkeys at that point. And then you

413
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,359
Speaker 1: kind of saw this lull until the late you know,

414
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,440
Speaker 1: two thousand nine, two thousand ten period, when I think

415
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 1: a lot of people in the East and Southeast realized

416
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 1: there was there was an issue, and you've kind of

417
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 1: seen a resurrection of turkey research in my eyes, and

418
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,440
Speaker 1: people stopped taking turkeys for granted. Yeah, absolutely, humans got

419
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:47,200
Speaker 1: short memories, man, we do. We do shortsighted and short

420
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 1: memory in some cases. When you were doing that work,

421
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 1: that initial work, you did a lot of predator work

422
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 1: I did. What if you look at that, but also

423
00:24:57,840 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 1: all the things you've learned since then. And I want

424
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:01,640
Speaker 1: to get back into in a minute, I get back

425
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 1: into your sort of like professional biography. But what kills

426
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,360
Speaker 1: turkeys in your mind? Not in your mind? I mean,

427
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 1: it's not you got to guess, you know, as a

428
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:13,920
Speaker 1: matter of fact that you look at like a national

429
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 1: sort of picture. Um, what kills turkeys? All of your

430
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 1: larger mammals, coach, bobcats, foxes, horned owls. Great horned owls

431
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 1: are an efficient predator of turkeys because they kill him

432
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 1: in the tree. Oh, they do, they do. Someone was

433
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,200
Speaker 1: telling me that just the other day, the dude we're

434
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 1: driving around. Yeah, they are really efficient. And they kill

435
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 1: adult tom's too. And we find that they do that

436
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 1: early in the morning while the birds are gobbling. They

437
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 1: single land on birds on you know, in the tree,

438
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 1: and then it is to get him on the ground.

439
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 1: And they actually hit them in the tree and you

440
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 1: can see a plume of feathers that goes away from

441
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 1: the tree in the direction that they carry the bird

442
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 1: down to the ground. And then they kill the bird

443
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,639
Speaker 1: on the ground, consume what they want and leave and

444
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 1: they you know, horned owls are bad man. They is

445
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 1: a big thing to hit. Yeah, horned owls when they're

446
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 1: in breeding pairs. They I used to call at the

447
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 1: Bermuda triangle I had really when I was doing my

448
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 1: PhD work, I had four raccoons. There were collared a skunk, um,

449
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,920
Speaker 1: a gray fox and two turkey hens in the same

450
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,640
Speaker 1: kind of general area, and this pair of horned owls

451
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 1: killed all of them. Back up, give me the list again.

452
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: It was four raccoons, a gray fox, a skunk and

453
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 1: two turkeys, and that that parah you kill a raccoon

454
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 1: rad cougar put the fight and almost seen a raccoon

455
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 1: kill a dog one time. Remember that horned owls are

456
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 1: vicious and they're so if you think about it, the

457
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,639
Speaker 1: way they hit their prey with the force that they

458
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,199
Speaker 1: hit their prey and they blindside you. You don't know

459
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,680
Speaker 1: what's coming. They have the element of surprise on their

460
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 1: side and they're they're incredible. But what's the actual like

461
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,239
Speaker 1: the method of killing, like what dispatches the animals, not

462
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 1: just the hit because you it's the talents. They strategically

463
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: put the talents like around the neck I'm guessing neck,

464
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 1: vertebrae back, anything that disabled them, and you hit it

465
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: like a peregrine hits like they hit it. It's like

466
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,439
Speaker 1: a it's like a baseball bat. So they'll blow a

467
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 1: gobbler out of a tree. Yes, yes, I wonder why

468
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:37,120
Speaker 1: they responds, well, yeah, it's in their frequency band that

469
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 1: that owl hoot is in the same frequency band that

470
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 1: a gobbles in. So some of the gobbling work we do,

471
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 1: it's very the technology we use to tease out the gobbles.

472
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 1: It's in the same frequency band as an owl hoot,

473
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,119
Speaker 1: as a crow call, as a coyote, how a gunshot,

474
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,880
Speaker 1: a cow moving, they're all within on the sonogram, they're

475
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: all within that same frequency band. So it makes sense

476
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 1: we need to give him one of our t shirts

477
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,159
Speaker 1: that shows all the things that make a turkey gobble.

478
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,239
Speaker 1: Have you ever seen this shirt? No, but I'd love

479
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 1: to happen. Do we gotta run? We got a running

480
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:13,119
Speaker 1: list that includes some incredible things. Oh, they'll they'll gobbled

481
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 1: all sorts of things. It's crazy. Sonic booms, thunderclaps. Yeah,

482
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 1: absolutely so a guy, a guy hawking rock to the

483
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: stop signs in our list. That was me. When you

484
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 1: say like the same frequency band, it's almost like they

485
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: can't help themselves, like they just yeah you hear of

486
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 1: shot gobbling? Ye Oh, I want to get I want

487
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: to talk about this in like detail first ime on top.

488
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 1: I want to finish up in the Great Horned Owls.

489
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 1: So hold that thought about shot gobl exactly, Like what

490
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 1: is he thinking, um, the great horned owls they ride

491
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 1: it to the earth. Yes, so they hit. We lose,

492
00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: routinely lose. If we let's just for number or sake,

493
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 1: let's just say we put fift GPS units on Tom's

494
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 1: and on this site, we'll lose at least one or

495
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 1: two before the turkey season starts to horned owls at

496
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: least every year, and it always occurs from about right now,

497
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: you know, late February early marks when they first start

498
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 1: gobbling in the tree, until right before the turkey season

499
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 1: when when we see gobbling really is starting to ramp up.

500
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 1: That's when those horned owls hit. Those times, we had

501
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 1: a gentleman the are day explained to me and Seth

502
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: that he believes that his bobcats go up into the

503
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: roost tree and kill the turkey's off the roost. Cats

504
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 1: can obviously climb out. I can't really discount that. But

505
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 1: I doesn't speak to you. It does not, because when

506
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: you get under a turkey roost, they know exactly I mean,

507
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 1: they know you're there. They know you're there long before

508
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: you ever get there. And yes, cats are much more

509
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 1: stealthy than we are. But but bobcats are are primarily

510
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: stalk and sit hunters. They sit and wait on things

511
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: to walk by them. They're lazy like our housecatch and

512
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 1: your housecats sits on your refrigerator and smashing ahead when

513
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 1: you walk by. Bobcats typically kill birds. We see they

514
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 1: kill birds while birds are out forging. So it's you know,

515
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 1: the kills made during the day sometime or early morning,

516
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 1: late afternoon when birds are kind of strolling along roads

517
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: or rights of way or whatever, and all of a sudden, boom,

518
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 1: there's the kill. I'm not saying they couldn't climb a

519
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: tree and kill a bird, but man, if you think

520
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 1: about it, that would be It's hard to imagine them

521
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: wrestling a turkey off on a tree branch. Yeah, yeah,

522
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: I guess it could happen, but it could be a

523
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: hack of a fall. You're putting putting yourself into a

524
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 1: dangerous position to take at fall. Yeah with yeah, yeah,

525
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 1: he seemed to think that he would get up there

526
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 1: when they're still sleeping and surprise him, isn't that what

527
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: he was saying, and get a whole bunch of them. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

528
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: I would say the whole bunch probably. Yeah, I'm gonna

529
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 1: have to call bs on the whole bunch. Maybe one

530
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 1: of the time, I was just sharing a perspective with us.

531
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: Uh okay, So you did all that, and that was

532
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 1: in your your PhD project was in the Mississippi Delta,

533
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 1: Well it was in Mississippi. My master's work was in

534
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 1: the Delta, and my PhD work was in the kind

535
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 1: of upland piney woods. And what was that work because

536
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 1: PDHD work is very specific though, right, Yeah, that was

537
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 1: the predation. That was where we went in and we marked.

538
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 1: We radio turkeys, hens and all those predators. And basically

539
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: what I did was I recreated GPS data, but I

540
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,239
Speaker 1: did it manually tracking there there was no GPS at

541
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 1: that time, so I would track these animals simultaneously. So

542
00:31:56,160 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 1: I may have three or four cats, a kaya, two boxes,

543
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 1: five hens, two raccoons, whatever. How are you getting all

544
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 1: that stuff colored up? We trapped our butts off live trapping. Yes,

545
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 1: we foothold trapped for the cats, coyotes and foxes, and

546
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 1: used cage traps for the raccoons, and of course you

547
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 1: used rocket nets for the for the turkeys. And I

548
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 1: did all that simultaneously. So there were several students working

549
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: with me that Let's say student A he was studying

550
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 1: raccoons and student B was studying bobcats. And then I

551
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 1: was kind of overseeing all of it, trapping birds, trapping this,

552
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 1: trapping that, making sure you didn't get a collar on.

553
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: We we both years of that project. I tracked about

554
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty animals simultaneously. How are you catching

555
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 1: the bobcats foothold traps? I mean, what kind of sets

556
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 1: did you make? We could trap with bait because we

557
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 1: were permitted under the state mean visible like visible bits.

558
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 1: We used um. It was funny based on your story

559
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,959
Speaker 1: this morning before we started. We used beaver because the

560
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,040
Speaker 1: caster has such a strong odor, and we had a

561
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: local trapper that provided beaver carcss and we would uh,

562
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: we would use the liver. We would use deer liver,

563
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: deer ribs, anything we could get our hands on that

564
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 1: that had a sight to it. We would hang feathers,

565
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 1: you know, anything. Because cats are such visual hunters. The

566
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: cats were pretty easy. The kyotes were more were more difficult.

567
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,719
Speaker 1: But but but because we could use meat, we were

568
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 1: pretty successful. And then you had to have used um

569
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 1: like rubber jaws, laminated jaws because you had these things,

570
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: you couldn't cripple them up right. Yeah. Yeah, So we

571
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 1: used either offset jaws, but most of them were padded Yeah.

572
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 1: Soft catchy, soft catch. So we would, you know, we

573
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 1: would catch the animals. We were in traps every morning,

574
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 1: every afternoon, pulled animals out of the trap. Uh. We

575
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 1: didn't drug foxes or coyotes, but we would immobilize bobcats

576
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 1: and raccoons because they were vicious. Obviously. Oh, it was

577
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 1: harder to wrestle bobcat than a coyote. Coyotes are so

578
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 1: docile they with few exceptions. When you catch a kayat,

579
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 1: they know they've been beat They you you can take

580
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:12,840
Speaker 1: a bath towel and sedata kayak truthfully, yeah, they even

581
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 1: you know, we use catch poles or the dog catchers nets.

582
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 1: As soon as the net would go over them, they

583
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:20,919
Speaker 1: kind of lay down because and they would just lay there,

584
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 1: and of course we would hobble them, you know, with

585
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 1: with leg hobbles, and we would put a muzzle around

586
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 1: their mouth. But I can only remember too that ever

587
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,479
Speaker 1: tried to nip at me. The cats, on the other hand,

588
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 1: when you try to throw a net or something over them,

589
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 1: it is like hell on wheels. When you put a

590
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 1: catchpole around a bobcat, it's like an explosion. It is.

591
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: It is a lot of times will kill themselves. We'll

592
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 1: fight the cat. So when we're talking about a catchpole

593
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: like I used to have on that may, it just

594
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 1: took a piece of cond to it. It took like

595
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 1: a it must have been maybe three eight cable, three

596
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 1: diameter cable, and imagine that you're run. You take like

597
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: four ft con to it, let's say, and run both

598
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 1: of the ends of the cable through it, so that

599
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: on one end you got coming out the two ends

600
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 1: of the cable, and then you just got like the

601
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,800
Speaker 1: loop and you can pass that loop over its neck

602
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 1: pull tight with the other hand. And they make more

603
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 1: sophisticated versions. But that when we're talking about a catch

604
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 1: pulls like a catchpole and you can kind of control

605
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:21,800
Speaker 1: it and you got it where you want it. You

606
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:23,399
Speaker 1: can get it out of a trap or whatever. Yeah,

607
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 1: you just have to be careful with cats because if

608
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 1: you put a lot of pressure on them, you can

609
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 1: because they're a lot of times um we would try

610
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: to get one leg in the catchpole to like get

611
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,799
Speaker 1: them around under the armpit end around the neck that

612
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 1: way when they freaked out, you know, you weren't snapping

613
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 1: their neck. Yeah. We we used mostly dog catchers nets

614
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 1: and they because they were big enough to cover the

615
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 1: entire cat. I found those to be a lot quicker.

616
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 1: And you know, as you know south, they start hitting

617
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 1: the catchpole, you know, swat at it constantly, but that

618
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 1: big net, they would grab it and chew on it.

619
00:35:57,800 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 1: But most of the time you could kind of wrestle

620
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 1: it over and then just take up. Believe it or not,

621
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,320
Speaker 1: we would just find beaver sticks, chew sticks from beaver

622
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 1: huts that had all the bark chewed off that were

623
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 1: water logs so they were having and we would just

624
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 1: pin the cat down, draw them in the butt with

625
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 1: with a mobilizing drug, and then remove them from the trout.

626
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,239
Speaker 1: And then did you guys have pretty good luck when

627
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 1: you're doing that type of work? Do you have pretty

628
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 1: good luck with with turning them out and there? Oh? Yeah, fine, yeah,

629
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:33,879
Speaker 1: very very seldom would we have any issues. Um cats

630
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 1: are pretty sensitive to their feet obviously, that's their that's

631
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 1: their gun, so to speak, So you have to be

632
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 1: careful foot hole trapping with bobcats to try not to

633
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 1: injure their you know, their digits. If you do that,

634
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 1: you could lose them. Kays are a little more resistant

635
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 1: to foot damage. But we you know, we trapped again

636
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:52,320
Speaker 1: with the padded foot hold traps, so we very rarely

637
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: had any issues. So when you did this, when you

638
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 1: did your pH d work, what was sort of um like,

639
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:03,280
Speaker 1: what was the biggest take away from it? Everything likes turkeys.

640
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 1: Everything likes turkeys, and this bird share space with a

641
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 1: lot of things that kill it, whether it be adults

642
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 1: or nest. And this now, granted, this was back in

643
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 1: the mid to late nineties, and it was kind of

644
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,240
Speaker 1: startling to me how many animals were within a turkey's

645
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 1: home range that would eat it or its nest. And

646
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:29,240
Speaker 1: since then, as most folks in the Southeast and East

647
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: can attest to, predator populations have exploded since then, Yes,

648
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 1: I mean all all science points to higher raccoon populations,

649
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:44,280
Speaker 1: higher meso mammals in general, all of the smaller mammals raccoons, opossum, skunks.

650
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 1: Explaining the term meso mammals just a mid size just

651
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 1: a mid sized mammal. You know, coyotes were common in

652
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,360
Speaker 1: Mississippi at that time, but they were just starting to

653
00:37:54,440 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 1: invade the Eastern Atlantic States and they're still not at saturation.

654
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 1: And a lot of the work I do cay at

655
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 1: work as well, and we still see that their territories

656
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 1: are not completely like puzzle pieces on the landscape. Yet

657
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: there's still are voids out there where coyotes are backfilling,

658
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,800
Speaker 1: so we're not we're not at saturation with that predator yet.

659
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 1: And to your question, it startled me back then how

660
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: many animals were within a turkey's range that could eat

661
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 1: it or its nest. And now the predation that we

662
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,959
Speaker 1: see on nest, which is about of all our nest

663
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 1: or loss. It's crazy. That's what the thing I want

664
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: to ask you about because I had heard this and

665
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 1: I heard a ball this this is the ballpark thing

666
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:48,320
Speaker 1: that someone telling me, like as a general rule of thumb,

667
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 1: of the eggs to hit the ground, never hatch yep

668
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 1: of the hatchlings don't hit their first birthday. Ye of

669
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 1: the words that hit their first birthday won't see their

670
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:07,240
Speaker 1: second birthday. Just saying a ballpark. Yeah, what we see

671
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 1: is about twenty ish percent nest success. Now my work

672
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 1: right now, nest success, that success, my work right now is.

673
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 1: I do work on a lot of Eastern populations. The

674
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,840
Speaker 1: eastern subspecies. Rio's are a different ball game. I have

675
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 1: some work on Rio's, but Rio's are precipitation driven, so

676
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 1: when it's really wet, the hatch is better. But just

677
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 1: talking about Easterns, we see about success. What what classifies success.

678
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 1: It hatches one or more eggs, that's the success, no

679
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 1: matter what the hell happens to him. Yes, and then

680
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 1: it then it gets more bleak, so you have success.

681
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 1: And then we see about a third of our broods

682
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,280
Speaker 1: have at least one pul that that survives the first

683
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,840
Speaker 1: month of life, because we tracked broods that first month.

684
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,720
Speaker 1: The assumption is once they get about twenty days old,

685
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 1: they're pretty safe and that that's a good assumption for

686
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 1: the most part. Once they start roosting off the ground

687
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 1: when they're two weeks old, they can they can evade predators.

688
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 1: And by the time they're you know, bannam rooster size

689
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,759
Speaker 1: chickens at twenty eight days, they're they're pretty hearty, little

690
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 1: you know, little things. So it takes them two weeks

691
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 1: where they can sleep in a tree. Yeah, they'll climb

692
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 1: up shrubbery and things to get off the ground, but

693
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 1: it usually takes and there's some debate. You know, turkeys

694
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 1: are like people in some ways. Some grow a little

695
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 1: faster than others, and that depends on how much forwards

696
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 1: they have and the quality of that forwards. But some

697
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 1: early researchers, like love Att Williams, who was a famous

698
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 1: turkey researcher in South Florida, he saw that some of

699
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 1: those Osceola's actually would start roosting off the ground eight

700
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 1: or nine days after they were hatched. But they're in

701
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 1: a you know, really southern latitude, lots of bugs everywhere.

702
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 1: They grow fast, but we typically see about twelve to

703
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:58,879
Speaker 1: fourteen days they'll start roosting off the ground with mom.

704
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 1: And at that point they're in pretty good shape, so

705
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:03,839
Speaker 1: she leaves him on the ground at night when she

706
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:07,319
Speaker 1: stays with them, she stays with them and broods them

707
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:11,360
Speaker 1: under her at night, and then once she can get

708
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,799
Speaker 1: off the ground, she roost with them. But again they're

709
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 1: they're right beside her and right under her, particularly during

710
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,359
Speaker 1: inclement weather, they're tucked up under her. And then as

711
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 1: they get bigger, obviously they can't do that, so they

712
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 1: just kind of assimilate themselves and in the tree around her,

713
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 1: and then as they get bigger and bigger and bigger,

714
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 1: that's when they start kind of moving out on their

715
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 1: own and you'll flush them. You know. Let's just say

716
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 1: we walk in on my brood that's twenty five days old.

717
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:42,799
Speaker 1: There may be two or three in this tree and

718
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 1: one in the tree beside it, and three that are

719
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,479
Speaker 1: on the branch under her, and so they're kind of

720
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 1: you know, in the area around her. When when mom's

721
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 1: on the ground with the with the clutch, do you

722
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 1: find that like hands are getting killed more when they're

723
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 1: on the ground with the absolutely yeah. When you know,

724
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,840
Speaker 1: if you think about it from mom's perspective, she needs

725
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 1: to be off the ground as well. I mean, that's

726
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 1: why that's why a ten pound bird sleeps in a tree.

727
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 1: It's because of predators, so that fourteen days she's much

728
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 1: more vulnerable to being killed while she's brooding. So it

729
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 1: it behooves a turkey to grow fast, quick and get

730
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 1: off the ground. So from a brood habitat perspective, they

731
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 1: need lights and lots of fords so they can grow

732
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,799
Speaker 1: quickly and start roosting off the ground for sure. But

733
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,280
Speaker 1: of those this is the you ever heard the analogy

734
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,839
Speaker 1: about the golden egg. You know, the probability that one

735
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: of those eggs becomes a gobbler. So take eight of

736
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 1: your nest and they're gone. Of those, only a third

737
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 1: of those that hatch produce one pole or more that

738
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 1: survives the first month. So if you do the math there,

739
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:00,919
Speaker 1: what we see from about East Exis all the way

740
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 1: over to South Carolina is that about seven of nest

741
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 1: produced one or more poults that survive. Yes, And then

742
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,479
Speaker 1: you start thinking about the probability that one of those

743
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 1: birds is going to end up being an adult tom

744
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 1: that you hunt in the spring. The odds are stacked

745
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 1: really steep against that that happening. It's pretty remarkable for

746
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 1: every for every leg rope dragon, mature bird out there,

747
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 1: hundreds have died yes, yes, and hundred of died or whatever.

748
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 1: And that those issues are what has driven research particularly

749
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:48,759
Speaker 1: the past decade, because back in the nineties, if you

750
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 1: picked up literature on turkeys, you would see nest success

751
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 1: of thirty times were good turkeys were hatching everywhere. That's

752
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 1: the whole But that's that you believe that those are

753
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:04,280
Speaker 1: true numbers. It wasn't because the research was bad. Uh.

754
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:07,439
Speaker 1: I think no, not bad. I think what we ended

755
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 1: up doing years ago is we we weren't able to

756
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 1: track nesting as well as we can now. We missed

757
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 1: birds that would incubate because the GPS that we have

758
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:21,920
Speaker 1: now is so clear. I mean, we can see with

759
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 1: utmost clarity when she starts incubating. So we missed some

760
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 1: nests back twenty years ago because they would start incubating

761
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:33,359
Speaker 1: and we wouldn't know it. But so what you you

762
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:37,240
Speaker 1: tended to overestimate nest success because you missed some nests

763
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:40,360
Speaker 1: that we're failed, you know that failed. But but but

764
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 1: still the numbers were better then and you consistently saw

765
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 1: it across studies. It wasn't like one or two studies,

766
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 1: you know, would say, oh it's most studies were showing

767
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:55,239
Speaker 1: much better nest success than we see now. And that's

768
00:44:55,320 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 1: kind of that's one of the things that prompted the

769
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 1: Eastern Southeastern slash states to say we have an issue

770
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:09,439
Speaker 1: because we started noticing declines in in next success and

771
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 1: and that popped up from brood surveys. Basically all the

772
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:17,279
Speaker 1: states in the in the Southeast have brood surveys that

773
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 1: they conduct where agency personnel and the public record how

774
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: many hens they see in the summer that have poults

775
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 1: with them, And if you look across the last twenty years,

776
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:32,839
Speaker 1: it's been declining every year without exception. So this has

777
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 1: been a problem that's actually been ongoing, and it was

778
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 1: right under our nose, and we didn't see it because,

779
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,800
Speaker 1: like we've talked about, there were turkeys everywhere and harvest

780
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 1: was really good. And and then about the late two thousands,

781
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:47,840
Speaker 1: you know, two thousand nine, two thousand ten, the Southeast States,

782
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:49,759
Speaker 1: and then about a year or two later, the kind

783
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,880
Speaker 1: of the Northeast States and the Midwestern states kind of

784
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 1: put their heads together and said, you know what, we're

785
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 1: kind of all in this together. We're seeing fewer poults

786
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:03,320
Speaker 1: per hen or fewer hens that have poults in the summer,

787
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:08,440
Speaker 1: which the only possible scenarios there is fewer are hatching

788
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:12,879
Speaker 1: and or more broods are dying. That's the only thing

789
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 1: that could translate to fewer birds being observed that have

790
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:21,479
Speaker 1: poults with them. And that kick started some research that

791
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 1: I think has really opened people's eyes to the fact

792
00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:31,399
Speaker 1: that this bird is is suffering in areas and it's

793
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 1: not obviously not uniform. I mean, turkeys are doing really

794
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,880
Speaker 1: well in some places, particularly urban kind of suburban areas.

795
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 1: You hear about exactly, do you think there's a lot

796
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 1: more predators on the ground because we've had lower fur

797
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 1: prices for thirty years. There's no question, there's no question.

798
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 1: I mean you if you if you go back and

799
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:01,839
Speaker 1: look at you know, pelp prices. People actually trapped raccoons

800
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 1: and made money off of them, and you can't give raccoons. Yeah.

801
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 1: Used to be like if you find like a coon

802
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:12,279
Speaker 1: dentry in the mid eighties, it was a big damn

803
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:14,880
Speaker 1: deal and you had to you know, get there on

804
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:16,759
Speaker 1: opening day because someone else is going to get there

805
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:20,320
Speaker 1: ahead of you. There was a big raccoon nighttime raccoon

806
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:25,279
Speaker 1: hound hunting culture in Pennsylvania. Know, the guys with the

807
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:28,839
Speaker 1: hounds would mop up more than trappers. But I mean, yeah,

808
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 1: but you can sell a coon for forty bucks, yeah

809
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:33,759
Speaker 1: in those days. Yeah, and you can't. You can't give

810
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 1: raccoons away at this point, so there's no motivation. And

811
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 1: as you know, as we all sitting here and know that,

812
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:43,440
Speaker 1: you know that trade has declined. I mean, there aren't

813
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:46,719
Speaker 1: trappers being recruited into the ranks of people that would

814
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:50,759
Speaker 1: go catch for bears like there were years ago. You

815
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:53,840
Speaker 1: put all that together and and what we've learned about

816
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 1: some of these predators, for instance raccoons, is you you

817
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:02,360
Speaker 1: will see uh five six males sharing the same home range.

818
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 1: So this thought that well you just go trap one

819
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:08,359
Speaker 1: male and you got him. That's that's garbage. There could

820
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 1: be half a dozen there. Um, they have all sorts

821
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 1: of kind of unique breeding strategies. Males will den together,

822
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 1: which is pretty interesting. Again, they share home ranges. You

823
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:24,800
Speaker 1: see females that have pretty high litter survival rates. Because

824
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:28,239
Speaker 1: what would eat a raccoon right other than a great one? Now,

825
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 1: how does the raccoon kill a turkey? Um, we don't.

826
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:35,880
Speaker 1: We don't. See. The raccoons are a big predator of adults.

827
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 1: They can't they can kill adults. They will kill poults

828
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 1: basically if you think really young poults that they can

829
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:46,759
Speaker 1: kind of disrupt the brood and and get you get

830
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 1: a polt off by themselves. But they like to hunt

831
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:51,759
Speaker 1: the nest down right, they do. But we found through

832
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,720
Speaker 1: some experimental work they don't actually go looking for nest.

833
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:59,400
Speaker 1: They just end up in areas where nests are and

834
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 1: most of that is because raccoons in the spring and

835
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 1: summer are looking for soft mast so like in the South,

836
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 1: that would be blackberries, dewberries, you know, those types of things.

837
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 1: They're looking for that invertebrates, um amphibians, anything that they

838
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 1: can kind of get their hands on. And a lot

839
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 1: of that ends up being in areas that are dense, shrubby, brushy,

840
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 1: grassy sites. Well, turkeys end up nesting there and the

841
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 1: raccoons stumble across the nest and and raccoons, once they

842
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 1: find the nest, they'll they'll consume. Usually if they don't

843
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 1: consume the entire clutch, they'll move eggs away from the

844
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:41,319
Speaker 1: nest bowl and consume them and then come back. So

845
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:45,319
Speaker 1: within short order the entire clutch is lost. Now here's

846
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 1: a research question for you. How in the world you

847
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:50,560
Speaker 1: how can you say that you don't know that they're

848
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 1: looking for turkeyness. We actually set up an experiment where

849
00:49:55,160 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 1: we supplementally fed raccoons and we did this too. Look

850
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:07,319
Speaker 1: at how it's It's called area restricted searching. Basically, just

851
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 1: think about it like this, So predators walking across the

852
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:13,360
Speaker 1: environment and all of a sudden queues in on something

853
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 1: that hey, it's a smell, a site, a sound, something

854
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 1: that I can eat. So they do. They start doing

855
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:24,120
Speaker 1: this kind of circuitous movements back and forth, back and

856
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:26,839
Speaker 1: forth through the same area, hunting for whatever it is

857
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 1: that they detected. Well, we needed to figure out what

858
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:32,320
Speaker 1: that looks like in raccoons, so we set up this

859
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:37,399
Speaker 1: this experiment where we tracked raccoons and we stood there

860
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:40,360
Speaker 1: with them all night. Basically they were wild, but we

861
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 1: stood out there with them and tracked them as they

862
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 1: exhibited this behavior. And then we went back out on

863
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:51,839
Speaker 1: the landscape and had turkeys marked, had nesting place, you know,

864
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 1: places where nest were located, and we tracked raccoons that

865
00:50:56,080 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 1: we're not supplementally fed, and it clearly demonstrated that those

866
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:05,080
Speaker 1: raccoons are not going to areas where nests are and

867
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:09,280
Speaker 1: then start they don't start searching, they just start bebopping

868
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 1: across the environment and all of a sudden they would

869
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 1: end up in something that would look kind of like

870
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 1: a turkey nesting area and they'd start foraging. But most

871
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:22,279
Speaker 1: of the time they ended up in areas that we're

872
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 1: not nesting cover. They ended up in in areas that

873
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:29,240
Speaker 1: were more wet that a lot of our birds didn't

874
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:32,360
Speaker 1: nest in which led us to conclude that most of

875
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 1: the time, when they bump into a nest, it's just

876
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:37,879
Speaker 1: them walking from one point to the next and they

877
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:41,919
Speaker 1: encounter something I suspect it smell, you know, they get

878
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:44,320
Speaker 1: some whiff of there's a bird over there on the ground.

879
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 1: I'm going to go check it out. And of course

880
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 1: when they when they flush a bird, I mean, turkeys

881
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 1: are pretty they some turkeys can be pretty resilient to

882
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:56,360
Speaker 1: nest predators. They'll attack snakes, and we have pictures of

883
00:51:56,400 --> 00:52:00,239
Speaker 1: Gould's birds that sit while foxes nose up on under

884
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 1: them on the nest. Yeah, but that's not uniform. So

885
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 1: a lot of times, you know, as you know, you

886
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 1: flush a bird off the nest when you're hunting or something.

887
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 1: That's what happens when a rackane approaches. They don't abandon

888
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:14,399
Speaker 1: that nest if they get bumped off of it. They

889
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 1: will if it's We find that typically their abandonment is

890
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 1: if it's early an incubation. If she's only tied some

891
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:24,319
Speaker 1: investment into that clutch for a few days and you

892
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 1: flush her off, there's a pretty good chance she doesn't

893
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 1: come back just getting flushed off, because I It's happened

894
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:32,280
Speaker 1: to me a couple of times where I've almost stepped

895
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:34,960
Speaker 1: on the nest and I'm always I've wondered, will she

896
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:39,320
Speaker 1: come back to that? Yeah? I had this a true story.

897
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:41,799
Speaker 1: I had a bird back in the nineties that had

898
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 1: her UH radio telemetry unit was faulty, so I couldn't

899
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:49,759
Speaker 1: tell how close I was to her. And that's back

900
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 1: in the day. We would approach to within a certain

901
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:54,239
Speaker 1: distance and kind of put a flag so that when

902
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 1: she hatched, we could go find the nest, and inevitably

903
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 1: I would try to this bird. I went into her

904
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 1: her nest five days after she she started incubating, and

905
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:06,279
Speaker 1: I went to put the flag in the tree and

906
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:08,080
Speaker 1: she got up right under me, and I was like,

907
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:11,319
Speaker 1: a damn, you know, well she's not coming back. Well

908
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 1: she came back. So one day, about twenty days in,

909
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 1: I drive down the road, I get out of the truck,

910
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:21,640
Speaker 1: I check her. She's she's standing there and she flushed

911
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 1: from the road. I have no idea why she's like

912
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:27,239
Speaker 1: thirty meters from the road and she flushed off the nest.

913
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:30,680
Speaker 1: And you gotta be kidding me. She did that every

914
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 1: day from day twenty until she hatched. Every day I'd

915
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:36,840
Speaker 1: pull up there, she'd flush off the nest, or she

916
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:39,840
Speaker 1: if she didn't flush, she would run. Like I actually

917
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:42,239
Speaker 1: listened to the signal and think that bird just got

918
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:46,200
Speaker 1: up again and started walking off of that clutch and

919
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:48,840
Speaker 1: I'm thirty meters away from her. No idea why she

920
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:52,279
Speaker 1: did that. Usually, once you start flushing the bird that

921
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:54,879
Speaker 1: it's over. You know, they don't. And that makes sense

922
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:56,880
Speaker 1: if you think about it. If you're early an incubation,

923
00:53:57,040 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 1: something flushes you, that's not a good spot. Yeah, you

924
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:03,720
Speaker 1: don't have a lot invested in it. Yeah, you know better.

925
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:06,879
Speaker 1: Yet you need to live and turkeys are a long

926
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:10,000
Speaker 1: lived bird relatively speaking, so they need to live to

927
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:12,279
Speaker 1: the next year. So if you haven't invested much in

928
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:16,360
Speaker 1: that clutch, you know, the sage decision is to go

929
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:18,880
Speaker 1: somewhere else and either try again or just quit. For them,

930
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:22,840
Speaker 1: if it's early enough in the season, they'll just lay another.

931
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:26,239
Speaker 1: Yet they'll just redust. Yeah, and that that depends on

932
00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 1: a lot of different things. But but yeah, how many

933
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 1: how many attempts can they make? We've in the spring,

934
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:39,560
Speaker 1: we've had four. The most are if they try more

935
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 1: than once. It's it's just twice. You'll get the occasional

936
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 1: bird that will try three times, and we've had one,

937
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 1: you know, a few that did four, but most are

938
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:54,640
Speaker 1: one or two. A minute ago, you just said that

939
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:58,319
Speaker 1: they're a long lived bird. But then when you lay

940
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 1: out all the ways they get killed, the frequency with

941
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:03,680
Speaker 1: which they get killed, it would feel that they're not

942
00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:06,719
Speaker 1: along with bird and that and that's that's part of

943
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:10,960
Speaker 1: that's part of the conundrum here. If you will, this

944
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 1: bird is supposed to live a long time. They're supposed

945
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 1: to live. The hens anyway, are supposed to live through

946
00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:23,200
Speaker 1: multiple breeding cycles. Otherwise you you don't have a shot

947
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:27,320
Speaker 1: at being successful. So this bird needs to live years,

948
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:30,320
Speaker 1: given their high predation rates on their on their nest,

949
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:33,040
Speaker 1: in order for it to replace itself, right, because if

950
00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:35,279
Speaker 1: she doesn't produce, if you think about it, if she

951
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:39,759
Speaker 1: doesn't produce one or more hen polts that survived to

952
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:44,560
Speaker 1: be her age, then the flock declines through time. And

953
00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:48,839
Speaker 1: from a male's perspective, you know, these tom's, their reproductive

954
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:51,520
Speaker 1: success is driven by how many times they can breed.

955
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:54,120
Speaker 1: I mean that's they need to breed with as many

956
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 1: hens to be successful in their life as possible. So

957
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:00,880
Speaker 1: if he only lives two years, he's he doesn't have

958
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:04,359
Speaker 1: near the reproductive success if he lives five years. So

959
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:08,640
Speaker 1: this bird is supposed to live longer than say a

960
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:10,680
Speaker 1: lot of them. I mean they're a large body birden

961
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:13,520
Speaker 1: and large body birds are supposed to live longer. And

962
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:16,440
Speaker 1: what we see with these hens is a lot of

963
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:20,399
Speaker 1: these hens have the strategy during incubation of living, they

964
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:23,320
Speaker 1: spend more time away from their nest than other hens.

965
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 1: They may be in areas that are more open where

966
00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:29,640
Speaker 1: they can see. There appears to be a strategy within

967
00:56:29,719 --> 00:56:32,719
Speaker 1: every population we study where some of these hens they

968
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:35,759
Speaker 1: want to live their Their strategy is nest where I

969
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:39,160
Speaker 1: can see, evade predation if it if it shows up,

970
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:43,359
Speaker 1: and try again next year, whereas other hens forego that,

971
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:46,720
Speaker 1: and they tend to be hens that die on the nest,

972
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:49,839
Speaker 1: but they're more successful. So there's there's kind of two

973
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:54,160
Speaker 1: different strategies in these populations. The strategy of live until

974
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:58,760
Speaker 1: next year. That works if the bird lives multiple years.

975
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:02,839
Speaker 1: Oh because all right, because her strategy have lived till

976
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:08,440
Speaker 1: next year decreases the likelihood like she's more playing her

977
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:10,919
Speaker 1: own game rather than protect him. The thing that's right,

978
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:14,640
Speaker 1: she's she's more invested in herself than she is the clutch,

979
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:18,320
Speaker 1: because you know we're talking about they're like your house

980
00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:20,200
Speaker 1: catches on fire. You got the ones that go in

981
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:22,440
Speaker 1: and get her kids, and you got the ones that

982
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:25,480
Speaker 1: just book. Yeah, And what we see is the birds

983
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:29,120
Speaker 1: that are less invested in their nest, they when they

984
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:32,080
Speaker 1: take recesses, when they take breaks during the day, they

985
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 1: go farther away. They spend more time away from the clutch.

986
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 1: And that makes sense if you think about it, because

987
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:40,200
Speaker 1: when you're sitting there, you're vulnerable, but when you're off.

988
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:43,360
Speaker 1: Turkeys have a periscope head. When they're off standing around

989
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:46,320
Speaker 1: foraging there, they're hyper vigilant. They can see, they hear.

990
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:50,240
Speaker 1: And when she's stuck there on that clutch, she's at

991
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:54,040
Speaker 1: the mercy of you know, things around her, whereas she

992
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:57,800
Speaker 1: when she's away from the clutch, she's much safer. The

993
00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:02,120
Speaker 1: birds that end up dying as an aside, almost all

994
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:04,680
Speaker 1: of the birds that we have to be killed during

995
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:07,680
Speaker 1: nesting or killed at the nest, almost all of them

996
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:10,120
Speaker 1: are killed at the clutch. So there's a predator that

997
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:14,480
Speaker 1: is detecting her on the ground. Approaching her and then

998
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:17,600
Speaker 1: killing her as she's trying to escape from the nest.

999
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:23,200
Speaker 1: Almost all of them. What's an what's an old hen? Well,

1000
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:26,200
Speaker 1: one problem is in the wild we unless we have

1001
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:29,120
Speaker 1: banded known age birds, we don't know how old they are.

1002
00:58:29,200 --> 00:58:32,200
Speaker 1: We just know that they're either juveniles so they were

1003
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:36,720
Speaker 1: hatched this year, or they're not. Now we've had birds.

1004
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:41,640
Speaker 1: I had a bird back years ago in in Mississippi

1005
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:44,720
Speaker 1: actually that we know was nine years old based on

1006
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:47,560
Speaker 1: we used to put wing tags on them. And she

1007
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:52,080
Speaker 1: was nine there and those in a hunted population of birds. Yeah,

1008
00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:55,920
Speaker 1: and she was. She was pretty slick. Um. We we

1009
00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:59,080
Speaker 1: see routinely, you know, we'll get banned returns of Tom's

1010
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:02,480
Speaker 1: that are six, seven, eight years old. We had one

1011
00:59:02,520 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 1: that was d populations. We had one the other last year,

1012
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:09,800
Speaker 1: like Sneaky Pete that was that was eight. So yeah,

1013
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:12,320
Speaker 1: we we get some older birds. But Buying he had

1014
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:15,680
Speaker 1: a gobbler and a hundred population lived to be eight. Yeah,

1015
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:18,400
Speaker 1: the hell's he doing. He's pretty slick. He doesn't make

1016
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:21,880
Speaker 1: a lot of noise. No, No, he's probably not doing

1017
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:26,800
Speaker 1: too much breeding. If he is, he's he's using an

1018
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:30,800
Speaker 1: alternative strategy for sure. You know, he's one of those

1019
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:33,800
Speaker 1: gobblers that gobbles and then catches his you know, sticks

1020
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:35,920
Speaker 1: his his foot in his beak if you will, to

1021
00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:38,600
Speaker 1: shut himself up, you know, don't don't call too loud,

1022
00:59:38,680 --> 00:59:44,320
Speaker 1: don't call it too often. Uh. Yeah, he's got a question. Well,

1023
00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:46,840
Speaker 1: yeah we are. You have you know, I want to

1024
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:49,640
Speaker 1: do the question you just wrote, but because I think

1025
00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:51,960
Speaker 1: it has to do with that how hunters think they

1026
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:55,080
Speaker 1: can still reliably age males. Sure. Um, I was just

1027
00:59:55,120 --> 01:00:01,720
Speaker 1: gonna ask, like what environmental? Um, what's the word I'm

1028
01:00:01,720 --> 01:00:04,760
Speaker 1: looking for? Uh? What makes it? What makes a long

1029
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:10,600
Speaker 1: turkey spur subspecies? For one thing that's a an overriding

1030
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:14,000
Speaker 1: factor is you tend to see patterns across the different

1031
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:17,360
Speaker 1: subspecies as elways have the longest by far, and then

1032
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:20,960
Speaker 1: Easterns and then your western subspecies tend to be much shorter.

1033
01:00:21,240 --> 01:00:24,680
Speaker 1: Can I tell you why that is? Sure? In hunting

1034
01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:28,400
Speaker 1: lower it has to do how rocky the ground is. Yeah,

1035
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:30,960
Speaker 1: is that legit? I think there's some truth to that.

1036
01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:33,320
Speaker 1: I also think it's some of it and telling people

1037
01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:35,400
Speaker 1: that for a long time. I think some of that

1038
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:39,840
Speaker 1: is probably just lower you know, Um, you know, if

1039
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:43,720
Speaker 1: you as far as aging goes. And and I may

1040
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:49,000
Speaker 1: be crucified for saying this, but I'm right, Um, you

1041
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:52,200
Speaker 1: don't want to. If you if you go back and

1042
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:54,280
Speaker 1: look at texts from years ago, they would tell you

1043
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:58,000
Speaker 1: spur length as a reliable age indicator and it is not.

1044
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:01,800
Speaker 1: We Oh no, that not true. You can tell he's one,

1045
01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:04,120
Speaker 1: he's two, he's three, he's four. I can promise you.

1046
01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:07,680
Speaker 1: You can't. You cannot. We We have known aged birds

1047
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:12,600
Speaker 1: that that we're banded as Jake's that end up at

1048
01:01:12,600 --> 01:01:15,280
Speaker 1: two years old with inch and a quarter spurs, some

1049
01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:18,200
Speaker 1: with seven eighths inch spurs. We see we had a

1050
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:22,040
Speaker 1: five year old killed that had three quarter inch spurs. Yeah,

1051
01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:25,080
Speaker 1: but harmon now, because he ground him down on rocks

1052
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:27,720
Speaker 1: he was he was an Eastern. He was an Eastern,

1053
01:01:27,720 --> 01:01:29,880
Speaker 1: so not many rocks. But is it true or not

1054
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:32,480
Speaker 1: true that it takes him to be and I know

1055
01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:37,680
Speaker 1: this is gospel did when he gets a pointy spur

1056
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:42,160
Speaker 1: that you can prick your finger with, that's because he's three.

1057
01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:47,320
Speaker 1: That is false. So what you're saying is it's kind

1058
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:50,880
Speaker 1: of the same as guys looking at antlers and being

1059
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:54,120
Speaker 1: like that buck's four. Yes, because he's a six point yes,

1060
01:01:54,280 --> 01:01:56,040
Speaker 1: and you and the other thing you have to think about.

1061
01:01:56,160 --> 01:01:59,680
Speaker 1: Just like you know with deer, you're dealing with genetic issues.

1062
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:04,640
Speaker 1: You're dealing with body condition and things that that would

1063
01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:09,080
Speaker 1: facilitate one animal growing bigger faster than another. So the

1064
01:02:09,120 --> 01:02:12,440
Speaker 1: bottom line is spurs are not. I mean about the

1065
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:14,479
Speaker 1: only thing a spur will tell you is you're looking

1066
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:17,800
Speaker 1: at a really young bird or not. That's pretty much

1067
01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:20,720
Speaker 1: all I can tell you. What about beard, beard is

1068
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:24,760
Speaker 1: useless about. The only thing beards will tell you in

1069
01:02:24,840 --> 01:02:31,280
Speaker 1: general is if you combine them with the primaries on

1070
01:02:31,320 --> 01:02:35,400
Speaker 1: their wings having bars and or their tail feathers, you

1071
01:02:35,440 --> 01:02:38,120
Speaker 1: can pretty much back your way into that's a jake

1072
01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:42,120
Speaker 1: and therefore his beard is quite short versus that's a

1073
01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:45,439
Speaker 1: tom and he has a longer beard. Because you see

1074
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:48,320
Speaker 1: all sorts of issues with beards. You see freezing, you

1075
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:53,040
Speaker 1: see might you see um birds that are in brushier

1076
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:57,600
Speaker 1: climates tend to wear their beards off more than other

1077
01:02:57,680 --> 01:03:01,439
Speaker 1: populations of beards really don't tell you a whole lot

1078
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:04,840
Speaker 1: beyond which you can get from their primaries and their

1079
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:07,439
Speaker 1: their tail fans. Here's why a little bit that's a lie,

1080
01:03:08,320 --> 01:03:10,880
Speaker 1: Because have you ever seen a jake throw like a

1081
01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:13,200
Speaker 1: nine inch beard. No, And that's what I'm saying for

1082
01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:16,120
Speaker 1: in general. You look at that, you know, four or

1083
01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:19,760
Speaker 1: five inch beard, and you're probably looking at a jake

1084
01:03:20,080 --> 01:03:22,920
Speaker 1: just confirmed. Like that's what I teach students. Just always

1085
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:26,160
Speaker 1: confirmed with their tail feathers and their primaries. If those

1086
01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:29,200
Speaker 1: last two primaries are barred, have have barring all the

1087
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:32,280
Speaker 1: way to the end of those primaries, and they have

1088
01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:36,080
Speaker 1: a little tiny beard that's an adult that just has

1089
01:03:36,080 --> 01:03:39,920
Speaker 1: a short beat. When jake the center feathers too, it's

1090
01:03:39,920 --> 01:03:43,400
Speaker 1: a two centers out or two primaries of their wing

1091
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:47,000
Speaker 1: are not barred. They have black in tips. You don't

1092
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:49,280
Speaker 1: know that one. And then their tail fans. Is that

1093
01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:52,560
Speaker 1: true about the tail fans? Yeah, that because they mold

1094
01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:56,360
Speaker 1: beginning with the center feathers of the tail, so there's

1095
01:03:56,400 --> 01:03:59,240
Speaker 1: eighteen feathers there, so they begin molting from the center

1096
01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:01,720
Speaker 1: and then they mold out. So that's what causes that

1097
01:04:01,840 --> 01:04:06,280
Speaker 1: notched looking appearance. Two longer feathers. So the later you

1098
01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:09,040
Speaker 1: kill a jake in the spring, the more likely he

1099
01:04:09,200 --> 01:04:12,200
Speaker 1: is to have the notch is bigger. It's not just

1100
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:14,640
Speaker 1: the center two feathers, it will be the four or six,

1101
01:04:15,560 --> 01:04:19,400
Speaker 1: and then by the summer he's replaced all eighteen of

1102
01:04:19,480 --> 01:04:22,680
Speaker 1: those feathers, and the notch gets more pronounced. As the

1103
01:04:22,760 --> 01:04:26,320
Speaker 1: spring goes on, it gets wider. The width of the

1104
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:30,480
Speaker 1: notch gets wider because he's molding those outer most I

1105
01:04:30,480 --> 01:04:32,520
Speaker 1: wish we could feathers. I wish we could explain this

1106
01:04:32,600 --> 01:04:35,000
Speaker 1: to people. Uh, I wish we could explain this. I

1107
01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:38,200
Speaker 1: think he's doing a fine job. People who never even

1108
01:04:38,200 --> 01:04:40,440
Speaker 1: looked at a turkey's tail. I have a fan on

1109
01:04:40,440 --> 01:04:42,520
Speaker 1: my desk. Yeah, So just look if you if you

1110
01:04:42,520 --> 01:04:44,840
Speaker 1: want to kind of think about it visually, just look

1111
01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:48,040
Speaker 1: at the tail from the front when he's fanned out,

1112
01:04:48,040 --> 01:04:50,040
Speaker 1: when he's fanned out, and look at the center to

1113
01:04:50,240 --> 01:04:53,480
Speaker 1: that are directly over his back goes straight up from

1114
01:04:53,480 --> 01:04:56,960
Speaker 1: the base of his tail. That's the two that he starts.

1115
01:04:57,280 --> 01:05:00,320
Speaker 1: That's the first two hemlts. So, but that means they're

1116
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:03,840
Speaker 1: longer short, they're longer. So he molts from a juvenile

1117
01:05:03,840 --> 01:05:07,400
Speaker 1: plumage into his adult plumage, and the adult plumage is

1118
01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:11,600
Speaker 1: the longer feathers. So he's replacing shorter feathers with longer feathers.

1119
01:05:12,040 --> 01:05:15,040
Speaker 1: And as he replaces the shorter feathers working out from

1120
01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:18,520
Speaker 1: the center. That's why that notch gets wider and wider

1121
01:05:18,560 --> 01:05:21,400
Speaker 1: and wider, because it's working. It's what the longer feathers

1122
01:05:22,160 --> 01:05:25,040
Speaker 1: are replacing the shorter feathers as you work to the

1123
01:05:25,080 --> 01:05:29,760
Speaker 1: outside of the fan as it's fanned out. Yeah so yeah,

1124
01:05:29,960 --> 01:05:32,680
Speaker 1: uh but well he ever, by the end of the season,

1125
01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:36,320
Speaker 1: he'll he'll never like the way most seasons work. He's

1126
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:39,080
Speaker 1: always gonna have lopsided tail. Yes, as a jake. He

1127
01:05:39,120 --> 01:05:41,320
Speaker 1: won't get there during season. Yeah, they get there during

1128
01:05:41,320 --> 01:05:44,200
Speaker 1: the summer. They finished that molting of their tail during

1129
01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:47,840
Speaker 1: the summer. They also mold those primaries during the summer,

1130
01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:51,000
Speaker 1: so by the time they pop in as a two

1131
01:05:51,080 --> 01:05:54,040
Speaker 1: year old, they have the full fan that we know,

1132
01:05:54,520 --> 01:05:59,240
Speaker 1: and their primaries are all barred. Um. And that's diagnostic. Yes,

1133
01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:02,000
Speaker 1: that is old proof. That's the that's the two ways

1134
01:06:03,160 --> 01:06:06,000
Speaker 1: you know, I teach students. Don't worry about the spur,

1135
01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:08,040
Speaker 1: don't worry about the beard. If you want to look

1136
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:10,280
Speaker 1: at them, great, But if you really want to age turkeys,

1137
01:06:10,280 --> 01:06:12,480
Speaker 1: you look at their primaries and their tail fan. And

1138
01:06:12,560 --> 01:06:17,400
Speaker 1: that's only the agent one year or more than one year. Ye, yep,

1139
01:06:17,560 --> 01:06:20,360
Speaker 1: because what turkeys do they You know, once they go

1140
01:06:20,440 --> 01:06:23,600
Speaker 1: through that first malt to become an adult, they then

1141
01:06:23,640 --> 01:06:26,640
Speaker 1: continuously molt a little bit of time, so they they're

1142
01:06:26,680 --> 01:06:30,520
Speaker 1: always going to look like an adult once they're about

1143
01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:33,240
Speaker 1: a year and a half old. So you can't tell.

1144
01:06:33,840 --> 01:06:36,040
Speaker 1: You can't tell a four year old from five year old.

1145
01:06:37,240 --> 01:06:40,560
Speaker 1: Yeah he's got big spurs. Yeah, big long beard, big

1146
01:06:40,640 --> 01:06:43,880
Speaker 1: big long beard, big long spurs or not maybe short beard,

1147
01:06:43,880 --> 01:06:47,440
Speaker 1: short spurs. It's a crap shoot. Hey, who pays for

1148
01:06:47,480 --> 01:06:52,040
Speaker 1: all the research? Mostly state agencies. Um, most of my

1149
01:06:52,160 --> 01:06:57,560
Speaker 1: work is is funded by Pittman Robertson funds that yeah,

1150
01:06:57,720 --> 01:07:02,240
Speaker 1: that that hunters are contributing to their state coffers. That

1151
01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:06,400
Speaker 1: money then goes to agencies which ear market for partially

1152
01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:09,680
Speaker 1: for research, and then I work under contracts with state

1153
01:07:09,720 --> 01:07:12,600
Speaker 1: agencies to do the work. Nonprofits like you know n

1154
01:07:12,760 --> 01:07:15,960
Speaker 1: WTF they also provide a little bit of money, but

1155
01:07:16,080 --> 01:07:20,560
Speaker 1: buying large We're talking these are hundreds and hundreds of

1156
01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:23,560
Speaker 1: thousands of dollars to do these studies and it's mostly

1157
01:07:23,680 --> 01:07:28,880
Speaker 1: almost entirely driven by agency funding. That's great. Yeah, uh,

1158
01:07:29,760 --> 01:07:32,919
Speaker 1: you've been doing a lot of work on gobbling. Yes, yes,

1159
01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:36,800
Speaker 1: there's a thing that a lot of times people will

1160
01:07:36,840 --> 01:07:44,040
Speaker 1: come like hunters, dudes like me will attribute low gobbling

1161
01:07:45,600 --> 01:07:50,439
Speaker 1: on some particular weekend, no one was gobbling because there's

1162
01:07:50,480 --> 01:07:53,480
Speaker 1: a lot of hunting pressure. But what brings that to,

1163
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:56,320
Speaker 1: what makes me curious about that, is that I remember

1164
01:07:56,360 --> 01:08:01,160
Speaker 1: talking to uh former turkey researcher. No, no, no, he

1165
01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:02,919
Speaker 1: was a state agency guy who did a ton of work,

1166
01:08:02,920 --> 01:08:04,760
Speaker 1: but he had to do some turkey work. He was

1167
01:08:04,800 --> 01:08:06,880
Speaker 1: talking about they had they had collars one time on

1168
01:08:06,960 --> 01:08:11,240
Speaker 1: five gobblers or transmitted GPS units glued into the feathers

1169
01:08:11,240 --> 01:08:15,120
Speaker 1: I believe on five gobblers and they were fine. All

1170
01:08:15,200 --> 01:08:21,519
Speaker 1: winner spring came, they all got killed by bobcats. Um,

1171
01:08:21,680 --> 01:08:26,040
Speaker 1: you were just mentioned that great horned owls. We'll smack

1172
01:08:26,120 --> 01:08:32,200
Speaker 1: them more once they started goblin. So if all these predators,

1173
01:08:32,200 --> 01:08:35,320
Speaker 1: like native predators that the turkeys have always coexisted with,

1174
01:08:36,120 --> 01:08:40,880
Speaker 1: if all these predators are queuing in on gobbling and

1175
01:08:40,960 --> 01:08:45,959
Speaker 1: it makes the tom's more vulnerable, is the added pressure

1176
01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:48,559
Speaker 1: of humans queuing in on gobbling enough to like tip

1177
01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:53,200
Speaker 1: the scales. Yes, it is absolutely what we see. So

1178
01:08:53,560 --> 01:08:56,880
Speaker 1: we tried gobbling using these songmaters. They're called songmaters are

1179
01:08:56,920 --> 01:09:00,200
Speaker 1: just boxes that we put in a tree. We put

1180
01:09:00,200 --> 01:09:03,040
Speaker 1: a microphone thirty feet up to get above kind of

1181
01:09:03,040 --> 01:09:06,920
Speaker 1: the vegetation you know, on the ground, and that thing

1182
01:09:07,080 --> 01:09:11,320
Speaker 1: listens all all day and it records all ambient sound

1183
01:09:11,880 --> 01:09:14,800
Speaker 1: in an area of several hundred yards around it. And

1184
01:09:14,840 --> 01:09:18,599
Speaker 1: then we run that can detect like there's software that

1185
01:09:18,640 --> 01:09:20,760
Speaker 1: picks the gobbles out of that exactly. So we run

1186
01:09:20,800 --> 01:09:24,400
Speaker 1: the data through a software package. It extracts the gobbles out,

1187
01:09:24,880 --> 01:09:27,120
Speaker 1: and like we were talking talking about earlier, it also

1188
01:09:27,160 --> 01:09:30,240
Speaker 1: extracts crow calls and alcohols. And so we go through

1189
01:09:30,280 --> 01:09:32,880
Speaker 1: and we listen to verify that it's a gobble or not,

1190
01:09:33,920 --> 01:09:38,360
Speaker 1: and then we can track gobbling activity, you know, through

1191
01:09:38,400 --> 01:09:42,200
Speaker 1: time from weeks before the season starts to to the end,

1192
01:09:42,200 --> 01:09:44,160
Speaker 1: and we we do it all the way until the

1193
01:09:44,280 --> 01:09:48,720
Speaker 1: end of June. And what we see very clearly is

1194
01:09:48,760 --> 01:09:53,160
Speaker 1: that birds start gobbling in at least in the southeast,

1195
01:09:53,160 --> 01:09:56,880
Speaker 1: they start gobbling first of March. It really ramps up

1196
01:09:56,920 --> 01:10:00,680
Speaker 1: before the season starts, and then when hunting starts, it

1197
01:10:00,760 --> 01:10:04,679
Speaker 1: takes a nose dive and if it's heavily hunted sites,

1198
01:10:05,240 --> 01:10:10,800
Speaker 1: it may stop like entirely stopped. And if it's not

1199
01:10:10,880 --> 01:10:14,000
Speaker 1: a heavily hunted site entirely stopped. Yes. Yeah, we just

1200
01:10:14,040 --> 01:10:18,000
Speaker 1: published two papers. They're not even ripping one in the dark. No.

1201
01:10:18,240 --> 01:10:22,559
Speaker 1: In fact um two papers that we just published. Um,

1202
01:10:22,640 --> 01:10:25,360
Speaker 1: we showed the gobbling activity in there and it by

1203
01:10:25,400 --> 01:10:28,800
Speaker 1: April fift On that side, it was to study sites.

1204
01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:31,679
Speaker 1: With the exception of just a couple of days where

1205
01:10:31,720 --> 01:10:34,759
Speaker 1: we detected a dozen or so gobbles, it was zero,

1206
01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:38,120
Speaker 1: Like these birds stopped gobbling, And then you think it's

1207
01:10:38,120 --> 01:10:41,040
Speaker 1: because hunting. There's no question. Is it because the ones

1208
01:10:41,080 --> 01:10:43,360
Speaker 1: that like the gobble lot got killed or or one

1209
01:10:43,439 --> 01:10:46,080
Speaker 1: individual Turkey's like, man, I'm gonna chill out because every

1210
01:10:46,080 --> 01:10:48,759
Speaker 1: morning I got some dude standing below my tree. It's both.

1211
01:10:49,439 --> 01:10:54,360
Speaker 1: If you think about it, all times are not being killed, right,

1212
01:10:54,520 --> 01:10:56,960
Speaker 1: so even though we see from pretty high harvest rates,

1213
01:10:57,400 --> 01:11:01,520
Speaker 1: they're not all dying. What's happening is it's a combination

1214
01:11:01,560 --> 01:11:05,280
Speaker 1: of vocal birds are being shot, vocal birds are being

1215
01:11:05,280 --> 01:11:10,040
Speaker 1: disturbed and deciding okay, I'm I'm done, and other birds

1216
01:11:10,040 --> 01:11:12,479
Speaker 1: are just taking the strategy of you know what, it's

1217
01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:16,559
Speaker 1: not worth it. Every time I i'd start calling, I

1218
01:11:16,640 --> 01:11:19,120
Speaker 1: get a dude that walks under me and starts yelping,

1219
01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:21,559
Speaker 1: or I get a cat that chases me, or I

1220
01:11:21,600 --> 01:11:23,759
Speaker 1: get a coyote that comes into the pasture and runs

1221
01:11:23,760 --> 01:11:26,479
Speaker 1: me off, or I get an owl or whatever, and

1222
01:11:26,520 --> 01:11:30,360
Speaker 1: through time it just the bird. I think the bird

1223
01:11:32,160 --> 01:11:36,400
Speaker 1: see such a predation risk that they the adopt a

1224
01:11:36,439 --> 01:11:41,000
Speaker 1: different strategy, and that strategy is called less move about

1225
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:46,120
Speaker 1: their range, I suspect strut more drum more, try to

1226
01:11:46,240 --> 01:11:49,320
Speaker 1: use more subtle cues and or go to places where

1227
01:11:49,880 --> 01:11:52,720
Speaker 1: they know they're going to interact with hens and just

1228
01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:55,400
Speaker 1: do it quietly. And that that's what we see. The

1229
01:11:55,760 --> 01:11:59,000
Speaker 1: interesting thing is on we also have gobbling data on

1230
01:11:59,040 --> 01:12:03,120
Speaker 1: a non hunted side the Savannah River site, which is

1231
01:12:03,160 --> 01:12:05,200
Speaker 1: one of the very few places in the South and

1232
01:12:05,280 --> 01:12:08,960
Speaker 1: Southeast that that there's no hunting and it is like

1233
01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:13,639
Speaker 1: a park or it's a UM, it's a nuclear plant. Basically,

1234
01:12:13,640 --> 01:12:17,080
Speaker 1: it's Department of Energy. So it's about two hundred thousand acres,

1235
01:12:17,920 --> 01:12:20,080
Speaker 1: very limited hunting on one little chunk of it and

1236
01:12:20,120 --> 01:12:23,000
Speaker 1: no hunting on the rest. And we see that gobbling

1237
01:12:23,080 --> 01:12:25,600
Speaker 1: does not do that. They got wall spring as you

1238
01:12:25,600 --> 01:12:29,040
Speaker 1: would expect. And we also have a wildlife management area

1239
01:12:29,120 --> 01:12:33,000
Speaker 1: where they're only allowed to hunt two days and I

1240
01:12:33,040 --> 01:12:35,839
Speaker 1: bet you you can predict before I say it what happens.

1241
01:12:35,880 --> 01:12:38,200
Speaker 1: They gobble their heads off during the week, and then

1242
01:12:38,200 --> 01:12:41,120
Speaker 1: when hunters show up on Friday and Saturday, gobbling tanks

1243
01:12:41,520 --> 01:12:46,240
Speaker 1: no way, really and just the increased activity. And then

1244
01:12:46,280 --> 01:12:50,599
Speaker 1: they picked back up around Tuesday and Tuesday, Thursday, you know, Tuesday, Wednesday,

1245
01:12:50,600 --> 01:12:52,800
Speaker 1: Thursday is pretty good, and then Friday it tanks again.

1246
01:12:52,840 --> 01:12:55,960
Speaker 1: And you see this pattern through the season, just like that.

1247
01:12:56,560 --> 01:13:00,960
Speaker 1: There's there's no question this bird detects. It perceives the

1248
01:13:01,080 --> 01:13:05,599
Speaker 1: risk that we put on them on the landscape when

1249
01:13:05,680 --> 01:13:08,639
Speaker 1: hunting is at a heavy rate, you know, when there's

1250
01:13:08,720 --> 01:13:10,880
Speaker 1: lots of hunters out there. There's no question. The data

1251
01:13:10,960 --> 01:13:13,479
Speaker 1: clearly show that they perceive that as a risk and

1252
01:13:13,520 --> 01:13:18,160
Speaker 1: they behave accordingly. Are there are we part of the problem?

1253
01:13:18,160 --> 01:13:20,479
Speaker 1: I mean, of course probably problects. We kill turkeys, but

1254
01:13:20,880 --> 01:13:24,519
Speaker 1: do our activities I guess it would be this. Are

1255
01:13:24,560 --> 01:13:27,680
Speaker 1: there hens that don't get bred because we're interrupting their

1256
01:13:27,720 --> 01:13:30,599
Speaker 1: cycle too much during the breeding season. We don't see

1257
01:13:31,760 --> 01:13:37,440
Speaker 1: many hens that don't initiate clutches, so they're being bred. Um.

1258
01:13:37,520 --> 01:13:41,440
Speaker 1: What we do see is that there are some infertility

1259
01:13:41,560 --> 01:13:45,000
Speaker 1: rates and some populations where some of the eggs, you know,

1260
01:13:45,360 --> 01:13:49,360
Speaker 1: say one or so in every clutch is infertile. We

1261
01:13:49,439 --> 01:13:54,000
Speaker 1: also see which I think is more problematic that and

1262
01:13:54,200 --> 01:13:56,880
Speaker 1: some of these populations that are that are heavily hunted.

1263
01:13:57,600 --> 01:14:01,360
Speaker 1: The nesting season is taking six d five to eighty

1264
01:14:01,479 --> 01:14:06,080
Speaker 1: or ninety days, and meaning these hens are starting to breed,

1265
01:14:07,200 --> 01:14:10,879
Speaker 1: say late March, early April, and there are still clutches

1266
01:14:10,960 --> 01:14:15,360
Speaker 1: hitting the ground in July, which puts those hens in

1267
01:14:15,360 --> 01:14:17,880
Speaker 1: the bed, but it puts those poults in the bed spot, right.

1268
01:14:18,080 --> 01:14:21,240
Speaker 1: It puts the poults in a bad spot if dodn't

1269
01:14:21,320 --> 01:14:22,920
Speaker 1: end up time to get big. And if you think

1270
01:14:22,960 --> 01:14:26,000
Speaker 1: about it from a predator standpoint, it puts nest on

1271
01:14:26,160 --> 01:14:30,240
Speaker 1: the landscape scattered through time instead of a big pulse

1272
01:14:30,320 --> 01:14:32,840
Speaker 1: of nest out there at once predator. That's called the

1273
01:14:32,880 --> 01:14:37,320
Speaker 1: predator swamping. So there's no swamping in in our population.

1274
01:14:37,400 --> 01:14:39,760
Speaker 1: So what happens is you have for instance, I just

1275
01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:43,280
Speaker 1: showed I just gave a talk at the in Arkansas

1276
01:14:43,320 --> 01:14:47,400
Speaker 1: to their commission, and I showed a figure where we

1277
01:14:47,479 --> 01:14:50,719
Speaker 1: tracked the same group of hens throughout the nesting season.

1278
01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:53,120
Speaker 1: There's one bunch of hens that were one social group.

1279
01:14:53,160 --> 01:14:55,160
Speaker 1: They were all caught together, so they're all kind of

1280
01:14:55,160 --> 01:14:59,920
Speaker 1: one group. And the first hen starts and she loses

1281
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:02,920
Speaker 1: he clutch, and she tries again a few weeks later

1282
01:15:02,960 --> 01:15:05,200
Speaker 1: and she loses that clutch, and she tries again a

1283
01:15:05,280 --> 01:15:09,400
Speaker 1: third time. It was sixty five days across that period. Well,

1284
01:15:09,439 --> 01:15:12,759
Speaker 1: she didn't start until the I think it was April.

1285
01:15:12,800 --> 01:15:15,720
Speaker 1: The third or fourth was the first day. So if

1286
01:15:15,760 --> 01:15:18,880
Speaker 1: you think about it, she's on into June before she's

1287
01:15:19,080 --> 01:15:22,639
Speaker 1: trying a third clutch, and even if that hatches, those

1288
01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:25,559
Speaker 1: birds are behind the eight ball compared to a clutch

1289
01:15:25,600 --> 01:15:30,280
Speaker 1: that hatches April. Yeah, I've got a question related to

1290
01:15:30,320 --> 01:15:35,719
Speaker 1: that breeding disruption regarding like how seasons are structured, because

1291
01:15:35,720 --> 01:15:38,799
Speaker 1: you'll hear people say in many states the season starts

1292
01:15:38,840 --> 01:15:42,840
Speaker 1: too early, like in Pennsylvania doesn't open until May one,

1293
01:15:43,160 --> 01:15:45,439
Speaker 1: so they've got all of April to do their thing.

1294
01:15:45,880 --> 01:15:47,760
Speaker 1: And I think they do that to give them time

1295
01:15:48,600 --> 01:15:51,600
Speaker 1: to breathe. Yes, but here in Montana it starts, what

1296
01:15:51,720 --> 01:15:56,599
Speaker 1: you honest like April, and granted it's you know, a

1297
01:15:56,600 --> 01:15:59,280
Speaker 1: different climate, but do you do you think that those

1298
01:15:59,360 --> 01:16:05,240
Speaker 1: early stufs or could be a problem. Yeah, how much

1299
01:16:05,280 --> 01:16:10,520
Speaker 1: time do you um yeah, so I think some historical

1300
01:16:10,560 --> 01:16:16,400
Speaker 1: perspectives would be good. So back thirty years ago, there

1301
01:16:16,439 --> 01:16:19,200
Speaker 1: was a guy named Bill Heally, who's who's retired now.

1302
01:16:19,320 --> 01:16:22,840
Speaker 1: He he was a famous turkey researcher and he's a

1303
01:16:22,880 --> 01:16:27,720
Speaker 1: great guy. And he this was seventies eighties nineties. He

1304
01:16:27,800 --> 01:16:31,439
Speaker 1: was asked by the Northeast States to write a set

1305
01:16:31,439 --> 01:16:37,000
Speaker 1: of recommendations for timing hunting seasons. And he very clearly

1306
01:16:37,080 --> 01:16:40,200
Speaker 1: noted in this document that is widely used and sighted

1307
01:16:41,200 --> 01:16:44,040
Speaker 1: that you do not shoot this bird in the spring.

1308
01:16:44,360 --> 01:16:48,880
Speaker 1: You do not shoot Tom's until most and he left

1309
01:16:48,880 --> 01:16:53,400
Speaker 1: out a bit vague most breeding has occurred. And he

1310
01:16:53,439 --> 01:16:56,080
Speaker 1: goes on to say, to make sure you've you've hit

1311
01:16:56,160 --> 01:16:59,360
Speaker 1: the sweet spot just time it went incubations, you know,

1312
01:16:59,400 --> 01:17:02,679
Speaker 1: peaks and inkubation. So the bottom line is start removing

1313
01:17:02,760 --> 01:17:05,599
Speaker 1: Tom's when a lot of your hens are already bred

1314
01:17:05,720 --> 01:17:08,920
Speaker 1: and on the nest. That reduces a legal kill of

1315
01:17:08,960 --> 01:17:13,280
Speaker 1: hens because their secondary and those toms have already bred

1316
01:17:13,320 --> 01:17:15,840
Speaker 1: those hens. So there are some that are expendable at

1317
01:17:15,840 --> 01:17:20,520
Speaker 1: that point. And by and large the Northeast States accepted

1318
01:17:20,520 --> 01:17:23,960
Speaker 1: those recommendations. If you just mentioned Pennsylvania, Michigan, a lot

1319
01:17:23,960 --> 01:17:28,000
Speaker 1: of the Northeast states. There their seasons don't start until May,

1320
01:17:28,320 --> 01:17:35,040
Speaker 1: and the Southeast states have largely entirely ignored that. If

1321
01:17:35,080 --> 01:17:39,519
Speaker 1: you look across the South, seasons open three to four

1322
01:17:39,680 --> 01:17:43,439
Speaker 1: weeks before peaks and incubation, and that's uniform across states,

1323
01:17:43,479 --> 01:17:46,599
Speaker 1: with very few exceptions. Louisiana has a little later opening date,

1324
01:17:47,720 --> 01:17:50,160
Speaker 1: Arkansas has a later opening date, but by and large

1325
01:17:50,760 --> 01:17:54,320
Speaker 1: you have states opening weeks and weeks before incubation peaks.

1326
01:17:55,120 --> 01:17:59,479
Speaker 1: And what that does the research. We're just trying to

1327
01:17:59,640 --> 01:18:02,920
Speaker 1: grow kind of put our heads around this. But here's

1328
01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:06,880
Speaker 1: my thinking. So and and Bill pointed to this in

1329
01:18:07,240 --> 01:18:09,920
Speaker 1: his writing. So, you have these dominant toms, and we

1330
01:18:09,960 --> 01:18:12,240
Speaker 1: don't know who they are. We don't know who the

1331
01:18:12,280 --> 01:18:15,400
Speaker 1: dominant toms are in the population, but what we clearly

1332
01:18:15,439 --> 01:18:18,639
Speaker 1: do understand is that you have these groups of tom's

1333
01:18:19,280 --> 01:18:23,320
Speaker 1: that breed a group of hens. Right, So you um,

1334
01:18:23,400 --> 01:18:26,360
Speaker 1: so turkeys use a mating strategy that's like a leck.

1335
01:18:26,880 --> 01:18:29,519
Speaker 1: So you know what sage grouse do, right, Okay, So

1336
01:18:29,640 --> 01:18:32,360
Speaker 1: sage grouse are all out displaying for each other and

1337
01:18:32,400 --> 01:18:34,280
Speaker 1: all the males are there together so they can see

1338
01:18:34,280 --> 01:18:36,519
Speaker 1: each other. But what turkeys do is more of an

1339
01:18:36,520 --> 01:18:39,600
Speaker 1: exploded leck. And all that means is you take that

1340
01:18:39,720 --> 01:18:41,519
Speaker 1: sage grouse leck and kind of blow it up on

1341
01:18:41,560 --> 01:18:44,760
Speaker 1: the landscape where you've got pockets of turkeys across the

1342
01:18:44,880 --> 01:18:48,759
Speaker 1: landscape and they maintain contact with each other through gobbling.

1343
01:18:49,120 --> 01:18:51,360
Speaker 1: They don't see each other like a sage grouse, they

1344
01:18:51,400 --> 01:18:55,479
Speaker 1: hear each other and that gobbling activity maintains those legs.

1345
01:18:56,000 --> 01:18:57,920
Speaker 1: So if you go out and you hunt Miriam's or

1346
01:18:57,960 --> 01:19:00,960
Speaker 1: Rio's and even Eastern's, if if there's a lot of birds,

1347
01:19:00,960 --> 01:19:04,040
Speaker 1: you'll hear this. Gob will over here, Goble over there,

1348
01:19:04,120 --> 01:19:07,719
Speaker 1: goble over there. That's those exploded legs that are calling

1349
01:19:07,760 --> 01:19:10,000
Speaker 1: to each other saying I'm still here, I'm still here.

1350
01:19:10,200 --> 01:19:12,639
Speaker 1: So each one's kind of got his zone and telling

1351
01:19:12,640 --> 01:19:15,360
Speaker 1: each other, yes, don't come here. I'm here, and I

1352
01:19:15,439 --> 01:19:18,280
Speaker 1: have my hands with me, and I'm going to breed them.

1353
01:19:18,320 --> 01:19:20,519
Speaker 1: Within that group of Tom's that are that are in

1354
01:19:20,560 --> 01:19:24,040
Speaker 1: that little exploded leg, there's one breeder. There's a dominant breeder,

1355
01:19:24,800 --> 01:19:28,080
Speaker 1: and the others are not always breeders, and in some

1356
01:19:28,160 --> 01:19:32,160
Speaker 1: cases are not breeders. So you have one Tom and

1357
01:19:32,280 --> 01:19:35,280
Speaker 1: he is the breeder. He's breeding with those hens that

1358
01:19:35,320 --> 01:19:40,879
Speaker 1: are around him and his brothers, his siblings or Tom's

1359
01:19:40,920 --> 01:19:43,920
Speaker 1: that he grew up with as a poult. So he

1360
01:19:44,000 --> 01:19:47,160
Speaker 1: was hatched and and amalgamated into the same brood back

1361
01:19:47,640 --> 01:19:50,960
Speaker 1: years ago. He's been spending times with these, these other

1362
01:19:51,040 --> 01:19:53,679
Speaker 1: Toms since he was a pol. These are the groups

1363
01:19:53,680 --> 01:19:56,160
Speaker 1: of Jake's that you see on the landscape running around.

1364
01:19:56,720 --> 01:20:00,360
Speaker 1: Those group of Jake's all hung around together, and then

1365
01:20:00,360 --> 01:20:03,360
Speaker 1: they get older together, and as they get older together,

1366
01:20:03,680 --> 01:20:06,680
Speaker 1: they have an established hierarchy. There's one guy that's at

1367
01:20:06,720 --> 01:20:08,960
Speaker 1: the top of this ladder and we've all seen this,

1368
01:20:09,080 --> 01:20:12,600
Speaker 1: I mean, and they fight constantly to maintain these these hierarchies.

1369
01:20:13,240 --> 01:20:15,720
Speaker 1: So you have this one breeder and you have this

1370
01:20:15,800 --> 01:20:19,080
Speaker 1: group of hens. And if we go in, say a

1371
01:20:19,160 --> 01:20:23,400
Speaker 1: month early, and we removed that dominant Tom, which we've

1372
01:20:23,600 --> 01:20:26,559
Speaker 1: we've clearly seen early in the season, dominant Tom's are

1373
01:20:26,600 --> 01:20:29,840
Speaker 1: more easily harvested than they are later in the season.

1374
01:20:29,880 --> 01:20:33,000
Speaker 1: There's been a number of studies showing that. So if

1375
01:20:33,000 --> 01:20:35,840
Speaker 1: we go in and we removed that dominant Tom, and

1376
01:20:35,880 --> 01:20:38,080
Speaker 1: I'll be honest, I'm guilty of this. I used to

1377
01:20:38,080 --> 01:20:41,600
Speaker 1: think years ago, well, hell, the next guy will just

1378
01:20:41,640 --> 01:20:45,479
Speaker 1: step up. That's not how it works. So this. This

1379
01:20:45,560 --> 01:20:48,760
Speaker 1: researcher Bill um I spent some time in his house

1380
01:20:48,800 --> 01:20:51,160
Speaker 1: with he and his wife. He used to imprint birds

1381
01:20:51,160 --> 01:20:54,160
Speaker 1: to himself, right, He imprinted them as polts, and then

1382
01:20:54,160 --> 01:20:57,800
Speaker 1: they moved around. He basically took these turkeys and he

1383
01:20:57,840 --> 01:21:01,240
Speaker 1: observed them. And what he told me was that these birds, you,

1384
01:21:01,360 --> 01:21:04,120
Speaker 1: they have their pecking orders like a ladder. There's a

1385
01:21:04,120 --> 01:21:06,120
Speaker 1: guy on the top step and then there's a bunch

1386
01:21:06,120 --> 01:21:08,880
Speaker 1: of steps under him. If you remove the top step,

1387
01:21:09,320 --> 01:21:12,600
Speaker 1: the second bird just doesn't step up. They tear the

1388
01:21:12,640 --> 01:21:16,400
Speaker 1: whole ladder apart, and they start over. And somebody figures

1389
01:21:16,400 --> 01:21:20,160
Speaker 1: out who's the dominant tom? No kid, And meanwhile, what

1390
01:21:20,280 --> 01:21:23,599
Speaker 1: is the hen doing? Okay, so you remove the dominant tom,

1391
01:21:23,640 --> 01:21:27,439
Speaker 1: that's the one through sexual selection, she's already picked that's

1392
01:21:27,479 --> 01:21:30,360
Speaker 1: the top guy. So if you remove him too early,

1393
01:21:31,200 --> 01:21:33,760
Speaker 1: you're expecting her to just say, well, okay, well hell

1394
01:21:33,840 --> 01:21:35,920
Speaker 1: he's good enough. Number two is fine. That's not the

1395
01:21:35,920 --> 01:21:39,559
Speaker 1: way sexual selection works. So you see this in prairie chickens,

1396
01:21:39,560 --> 01:21:41,360
Speaker 1: You see it in fallow deer, you see it in

1397
01:21:41,400 --> 01:21:45,280
Speaker 1: sage grouse species that use lecking strategies. If you just

1398
01:21:45,360 --> 01:21:48,400
Speaker 1: go in and remove a bunch of these males. The

1399
01:21:48,479 --> 01:21:51,719
Speaker 1: females don't just breed with the next guy standing there.

1400
01:21:52,000 --> 01:21:54,920
Speaker 1: They go evaluate everybody all over again, which they've been

1401
01:21:54,960 --> 01:21:58,840
Speaker 1: doing for weeks before we we shoot them, and all

1402
01:21:58,840 --> 01:22:01,559
Speaker 1: of a sudden he's gone. On, Well, if he's gone,

1403
01:22:01,880 --> 01:22:04,240
Speaker 1: I need to go back through my checks and balances

1404
01:22:04,240 --> 01:22:07,920
Speaker 1: and figure out who's the most fit tom standing here,

1405
01:22:08,200 --> 01:22:10,120
Speaker 1: and then I'm going to breed with him. It just

1406
01:22:10,160 --> 01:22:13,439
Speaker 1: doesn't happen the next day. What about our dear? Different

1407
01:22:13,439 --> 01:22:16,240
Speaker 1: than that, the work on fallow deer is shown. They

1408
01:22:16,320 --> 01:22:19,400
Speaker 1: do the exact same thing, so they re shuffled that

1409
01:22:19,600 --> 01:22:22,639
Speaker 1: they do. And the work on fallow deer is shown,

1410
01:22:22,680 --> 01:22:25,200
Speaker 1: which is kind of crazy, is that some of these

1411
01:22:25,360 --> 01:22:30,639
Speaker 1: females delay breeding so long that they actually some don't breed,

1412
01:22:31,120 --> 01:22:35,360
Speaker 1: like they just can't figure out who the best buck is,

1413
01:22:35,960 --> 01:22:39,559
Speaker 1: so they just stop and they move on. And again

1414
01:22:39,600 --> 01:22:41,519
Speaker 1: we don't see that in turkeys. We we see that

1415
01:22:41,600 --> 01:22:44,599
Speaker 1: most of them try. They lay a clutch of mostly

1416
01:22:44,640 --> 01:22:48,640
Speaker 1: fertile eggs, so they're being bred. But the thinking and

1417
01:22:48,840 --> 01:22:50,880
Speaker 1: there I'm not just I'm not the only one that's

1418
01:22:50,920 --> 01:22:53,880
Speaker 1: tuting this. There there are there are many managers in

1419
01:22:53,920 --> 01:22:57,400
Speaker 1: the South and East in particular that have discussed us

1420
01:22:57,439 --> 01:23:00,559
Speaker 1: over the past few years that that maybe what we're

1421
01:23:00,560 --> 01:23:04,360
Speaker 1: doing is we're disrupting breeding to the point where they're

1422
01:23:04,479 --> 01:23:09,720
Speaker 1: there are these subtle effects to populations that are contributing.

1423
01:23:10,240 --> 01:23:12,840
Speaker 1: They're not the cause, but are contributing to some of

1424
01:23:12,880 --> 01:23:17,160
Speaker 1: these declines we're seeing because we're taking these dominant toms

1425
01:23:17,200 --> 01:23:20,559
Speaker 1: out of these legs too early, and in so doing,

1426
01:23:21,520 --> 01:23:26,080
Speaker 1: we are compromising the hen's ability to pick the best tom,

1427
01:23:26,160 --> 01:23:31,559
Speaker 1: who theoretically also has the most fit sperm, and we're

1428
01:23:31,560 --> 01:23:35,280
Speaker 1: removing him because what she's supposed to do is she's

1429
01:23:35,320 --> 01:23:37,800
Speaker 1: supposed to breed with the dominant tom, and then she's

1430
01:23:37,840 --> 01:23:41,360
Speaker 1: supposed to be able to go find other dominant toms.

1431
01:23:41,400 --> 01:23:45,559
Speaker 1: So there's good evidence showing that these hens will visit

1432
01:23:45,640 --> 01:23:48,360
Speaker 1: multiple legs. They don't just stay there. Some of them

1433
01:23:48,360 --> 01:23:52,440
Speaker 1: will actually go and find other times and copulate with them.

1434
01:23:52,520 --> 01:23:56,120
Speaker 1: So what she's doing there is she's taking sperm and

1435
01:23:56,200 --> 01:23:59,720
Speaker 1: she's storing at which turkeys do they store sperm? And

1436
01:24:00,080 --> 01:24:04,679
Speaker 1: I basically liken it to tupperware containers they're putting storm. Yeah,

1437
01:24:04,840 --> 01:24:08,200
Speaker 1: they think about his turkey tupperware. You've got all these

1438
01:24:08,200 --> 01:24:10,640
Speaker 1: tubules inside of her body that are storing sperm, and

1439
01:24:10,680 --> 01:24:12,799
Speaker 1: when it's time to produce a clutch and laying eggs,

1440
01:24:12,840 --> 01:24:16,880
Speaker 1: she her body allows that sperm to be released. There

1441
01:24:17,040 --> 01:24:21,439
Speaker 1: is there is mate competition right there. The best sperm wins, right,

1442
01:24:21,560 --> 01:24:24,519
Speaker 1: the most viable because she's got sperm from multiple males,

1443
01:24:24,560 --> 01:24:29,400
Speaker 1: multiple maybe, and if she does, then that should confer

1444
01:24:29,520 --> 01:24:33,040
Speaker 1: her better fitness and her clutch better fitness. We see

1445
01:24:33,040 --> 01:24:35,280
Speaker 1: this in mallards, we see it in the waterfowl war

1446
01:24:35,439 --> 01:24:38,760
Speaker 1: is replete in science showing this. They're supposed to be

1447
01:24:39,840 --> 01:24:44,040
Speaker 1: multiple males and clutches, And there's some turkey work previously

1448
01:24:44,120 --> 01:24:46,280
Speaker 1: showing that a lot of clutches in a in a

1449
01:24:46,320 --> 01:24:49,960
Speaker 1: population of Rio's that wasn't hunted did have multiple times.

1450
01:24:50,640 --> 01:24:53,519
Speaker 1: We're collecting this data now in hunted populations and we

1451
01:24:53,520 --> 01:24:55,840
Speaker 1: don't have the results yet, but hopefully we will soon.

1452
01:24:55,920 --> 01:24:58,080
Speaker 1: But I kind of use the analogy if you were

1453
01:24:58,120 --> 01:25:01,400
Speaker 1: to ask a duck hunter, if I were to give

1454
01:25:01,439 --> 01:25:04,519
Speaker 1: you the opportunity to go to North Dakota and shoot

1455
01:25:04,680 --> 01:25:08,800
Speaker 1: mallards in May, what would you think? And then the

1456
01:25:08,840 --> 01:25:11,439
Speaker 1: analogy is, well, that's when they're in their courtship flights, right,

1457
01:25:11,520 --> 01:25:13,759
Speaker 1: So you have five or six drakes that are flying

1458
01:25:13,800 --> 01:25:17,439
Speaker 1: around harassing one hen, and she's supposed to be able

1459
01:25:17,479 --> 01:25:20,479
Speaker 1: to pick the best males out of that courtship flight,

1460
01:25:20,960 --> 01:25:23,800
Speaker 1: and she will breed with more than one male. You

1461
01:25:23,840 --> 01:25:28,720
Speaker 1: wouldn't even consider harvesting males out of courtship flights. You

1462
01:25:28,840 --> 01:25:33,040
Speaker 1: killed deer during their courtship different, different mating system. So

1463
01:25:33,120 --> 01:25:35,360
Speaker 1: if you if you look at turkeys, they're the only

1464
01:25:35,800 --> 01:25:39,000
Speaker 1: game bird in the conterminous United States that are hunted

1465
01:25:39,000 --> 01:25:43,000
Speaker 1: while they're breeding. They're the only one. So should we

1466
01:25:43,040 --> 01:25:45,960
Speaker 1: be hunting them in the summer. No, No, we just

1467
01:25:46,040 --> 01:25:49,439
Speaker 1: need to this. I think the science is going to

1468
01:25:49,479 --> 01:25:52,160
Speaker 1: demonstrate that we just need to be more thoughtful, which

1469
01:25:52,160 --> 01:25:54,639
Speaker 1: we were warned about years ago. Again, this is this

1470
01:25:54,680 --> 01:25:57,720
Speaker 1: is not new that we need to time our seasons

1471
01:25:58,640 --> 01:26:02,640
Speaker 1: more commensurate with the bird and not our own desires.

1472
01:26:03,080 --> 01:26:04,240
Speaker 1: I want to get out there as soon as the

1473
01:26:04,280 --> 01:26:08,160
Speaker 1: snow melts. Yes, yeah, and you know I've been there.

1474
01:26:08,200 --> 01:26:11,160
Speaker 1: It's like, well they're gobbled out, they're bread out, and

1475
01:26:11,160 --> 01:26:16,840
Speaker 1: and here, you know, like we're pretty extreme north. I

1476
01:26:16,840 --> 01:26:20,640
Speaker 1: mean we're you're dodging snow patches and being in snowstorms.

1477
01:26:21,040 --> 01:26:23,840
Speaker 1: They haven't even started breeding yet. But I've been out

1478
01:26:23,880 --> 01:26:26,080
Speaker 1: turkey homever. This is not a liquid well even down

1479
01:26:26,120 --> 01:26:31,479
Speaker 1: to Missouri, remember, not a liquid green. And I think

1480
01:26:31,520 --> 01:26:35,240
Speaker 1: it ultimately hinges on the harvest rate because if you

1481
01:26:35,280 --> 01:26:37,360
Speaker 1: go into a population up here and let's just say

1482
01:26:37,439 --> 01:26:41,600
Speaker 1: you kill two or three percent of all your tom's

1483
01:26:41,640 --> 01:26:46,120
Speaker 1: a month before breeding, who cares? Probably but at least

1484
01:26:46,160 --> 01:26:49,920
Speaker 1: higher now in these southern populations and Eastern populations. If

1485
01:26:49,920 --> 01:26:53,760
Speaker 1: you're going in and removing thirty, forty, even fifty of

1486
01:26:53,800 --> 01:26:57,559
Speaker 1: your tom's which we see on some areas prior to

1487
01:26:57,640 --> 01:27:02,479
Speaker 1: breeding or during the kind of the midst of breed eating. Frankly,

1488
01:27:02,520 --> 01:27:05,559
Speaker 1: to me, it's nonsensical to think it wouldn't have some effect.

1489
01:27:05,600 --> 01:27:07,960
Speaker 1: It's just what effect does it have? That's kind of

1490
01:27:07,960 --> 01:27:09,800
Speaker 1: what we're trying to put our hands around. You Know.

1491
01:27:09,840 --> 01:27:12,160
Speaker 1: What I think listening to you is important for people

1492
01:27:13,040 --> 01:27:16,680
Speaker 1: is because you're not a state agency person, right, but

1493
01:27:16,880 --> 01:27:20,080
Speaker 1: you're a turkey hunter I am, And because the state

1494
01:27:20,120 --> 01:27:22,400
Speaker 1: agency guys gotta be careful not to piss everybody off,

1495
01:27:23,160 --> 01:27:25,519
Speaker 1: and you can, you can afford to piss people off.

1496
01:27:25,560 --> 01:27:27,719
Speaker 1: I can, But then we know your motivations are pure

1497
01:27:27,760 --> 01:27:30,080
Speaker 1: because you like to hunt turkeys, That's why I give

1498
01:27:30,120 --> 01:27:34,200
Speaker 1: what you say extra validity. I appreciate that, and I

1499
01:27:34,960 --> 01:27:37,519
Speaker 1: that is true. I mean I kind of look and

1500
01:27:37,600 --> 01:27:39,479
Speaker 1: be the bearer of bad news. It's not gonna screw

1501
01:27:39,520 --> 01:27:42,080
Speaker 1: your your voicemail is not gonna blow up with irate

1502
01:27:42,479 --> 01:27:45,080
Speaker 1: it will customers. I mean, I have people that attack

1503
01:27:45,120 --> 01:27:48,280
Speaker 1: me on social media every week. I post every every Tuesday,

1504
01:27:48,439 --> 01:27:51,840
Speaker 1: Turkey Tuesday. I post, you know, science tidbits every Yeah.

1505
01:27:51,880 --> 01:27:53,679
Speaker 1: What are they? Yeah, I want to talk about Turkey Tuesday.

1506
01:27:53,720 --> 01:27:55,599
Speaker 1: But what are they? What's the what? They don't think

1507
01:27:55,600 --> 01:27:59,120
Speaker 1: you like to hunt turkeys? They I think, you know, honestly, Steve,

1508
01:27:59,160 --> 01:28:02,400
Speaker 1: I think there's people out there that look at biologists

1509
01:28:02,400 --> 01:28:05,400
Speaker 1: in general. And You've had I've listened, I've listened to

1510
01:28:05,439 --> 01:28:08,759
Speaker 1: some of your previous podcasts, and and I think people

1511
01:28:08,840 --> 01:28:12,720
Speaker 1: look at me or Jim Heffelfinger or some of these

1512
01:28:12,720 --> 01:28:16,640
Speaker 1: people that that are biologists and they think, well, they

1513
01:28:16,680 --> 01:28:18,840
Speaker 1: don't hunt. They're not hunters. They don't They're not in

1514
01:28:18,840 --> 01:28:21,559
Speaker 1: the trenches where we are. And like I said, I

1515
01:28:21,560 --> 01:28:23,599
Speaker 1: grew up hunting. I mean the reason I'm where I'm

1516
01:28:23,640 --> 01:28:29,000
Speaker 1: at is because I loved to hunt everything, and I

1517
01:28:29,120 --> 01:28:31,360
Speaker 1: was a steward of the outdoors, like I soaked up

1518
01:28:31,400 --> 01:28:34,680
Speaker 1: everything I could, and then I fast forward, you know,

1519
01:28:34,800 --> 01:28:37,160
Speaker 1: twenty five years and I look at my my eighteen

1520
01:28:37,240 --> 01:28:40,519
Speaker 1: year old I'm thinking, is he going to have the

1521
01:28:40,600 --> 01:28:45,040
Speaker 1: opportunities to hunt turkeys or any species that I had?

1522
01:28:45,160 --> 01:28:47,519
Speaker 1: And and if if I shake my head and say no,

1523
01:28:47,800 --> 01:28:50,320
Speaker 1: then it's a failure on my part. It's a failure

1524
01:28:50,360 --> 01:28:55,599
Speaker 1: on our part to grasp what effect we may be having.

1525
01:28:56,360 --> 01:28:59,040
Speaker 1: And I tell people, you know, we turkeys and other

1526
01:28:59,080 --> 01:29:01,720
Speaker 1: species are facing all sorts of problems. It's not just

1527
01:29:01,840 --> 01:29:05,439
Speaker 1: it's not a hunting issue. Habitat and predators and these

1528
01:29:05,479 --> 01:29:08,840
Speaker 1: things we've talked about. But to me, we have to

1529
01:29:08,880 --> 01:29:12,839
Speaker 1: do due diligence and understand what effect we might be having,

1530
01:29:13,240 --> 01:29:16,400
Speaker 1: and if there's something we can control, then we need

1531
01:29:16,439 --> 01:29:19,600
Speaker 1: to try. Because I really look at a lot of

1532
01:29:19,600 --> 01:29:22,360
Speaker 1: the species that we hunt and I think, if if

1533
01:29:22,400 --> 01:29:24,840
Speaker 1: they're not here when my grandkids come along, and the

1534
01:29:24,920 --> 01:29:27,920
Speaker 1: numbers that they are now or were, then it's been

1535
01:29:27,960 --> 01:29:30,519
Speaker 1: a failure on my watch. And that's that's tough to take.

1536
01:29:30,760 --> 01:29:33,439
Speaker 1: It's tough to stomach, especially I think when you're when

1537
01:29:33,479 --> 01:29:36,800
Speaker 1: you're pointing at when you're looking at a game management problem,

1538
01:29:36,840 --> 01:29:42,960
Speaker 1: and you're finding solutions that don't entail screwing ourselves over. Um,

1539
01:29:43,240 --> 01:29:46,519
Speaker 1: that's not that hard of a Pilba swallow, right, right right.

1540
01:29:46,800 --> 01:29:48,439
Speaker 1: Someone's not coming and saying like, listen, man, I'm not

1541
01:29:48,439 --> 01:29:51,120
Speaker 1: saying let's stop on Turkey's. I'm saying, let's think about

1542
01:29:51,120 --> 01:29:53,040
Speaker 1: our start dates. Yeah, let's be a little more smarter

1543
01:29:53,080 --> 01:29:55,200
Speaker 1: about season structure. I don't know why that should be

1544
01:29:55,200 --> 01:29:57,559
Speaker 1: met with a bunch of hostility, well, especially when the

1545
01:29:57,640 --> 01:30:01,120
Speaker 1: end result possibly it could be that instead of a

1546
01:30:01,160 --> 01:30:04,120
Speaker 1: two tricky bad bad limit, you might have four or

1547
01:30:04,240 --> 01:30:06,640
Speaker 1: you know, I think I think there's a number of

1548
01:30:06,640 --> 01:30:09,720
Speaker 1: issues there. One is just you know, we're greedy. I mean,

1549
01:30:09,920 --> 01:30:13,320
Speaker 1: human beings are greedy. It comes down to a lot

1550
01:30:13,360 --> 01:30:15,559
Speaker 1: of Yeah, it's a lot of what this is what

1551
01:30:15,720 --> 01:30:19,519
Speaker 1: I want, And what I hear from hunters is well,

1552
01:30:19,560 --> 01:30:22,599
Speaker 1: they're gobbled out. If we don't get to hunt them early,

1553
01:30:22,760 --> 01:30:26,760
Speaker 1: they I'm not going to get the opportunity. Well, okay,

1554
01:30:26,800 --> 01:30:30,360
Speaker 1: So I try to couch this to people, and I

1555
01:30:30,360 --> 01:30:32,759
Speaker 1: I think about it in my own as as a person.

1556
01:30:32,840 --> 01:30:36,799
Speaker 1: I think, okay, so in Georgia, I get about five

1557
01:30:36,880 --> 01:30:40,679
Speaker 1: or six weeks to hunt, and if you told me

1558
01:30:40,920 --> 01:30:45,639
Speaker 1: you only get four, but ten years from now. Instead

1559
01:30:45,680 --> 01:30:49,320
Speaker 1: of going and hearing one bird, which is about what

1560
01:30:49,400 --> 01:30:54,000
Speaker 1: I hear, or two that I could hear four, I

1561
01:30:54,160 --> 01:30:57,400
Speaker 1: personally would look at that and go, I'll take that

1562
01:30:57,560 --> 01:31:02,720
Speaker 1: all day long. Um. But the complaints I hear a

1563
01:31:02,720 --> 01:31:07,280
Speaker 1: lot are, well, you're taking my opportunity. I've been allowed

1564
01:31:07,280 --> 01:31:09,760
Speaker 1: to hunt turkeys for six or eight weeks, my entire

1565
01:31:09,840 --> 01:31:13,800
Speaker 1: life or whatever. And I get that. But in the

1566
01:31:13,960 --> 01:31:15,320
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, I look at it

1567
01:31:15,320 --> 01:31:18,000
Speaker 1: from the standpoint of the resource and I think, again,

1568
01:31:18,680 --> 01:31:22,160
Speaker 1: we have to do due diligence. And you know, turkey hunters,

1569
01:31:22,240 --> 01:31:25,679
Speaker 1: I'm biased, are one of the most cerebral hunters out there.

1570
01:31:26,080 --> 01:31:28,600
Speaker 1: I mean they're they're hunting at the time of the

1571
01:31:28,640 --> 01:31:31,519
Speaker 1: year when you don't hunt other things, so they are

1572
01:31:31,680 --> 01:31:34,320
Speaker 1: solely focused on this bird. And you look at all

1573
01:31:34,360 --> 01:31:38,160
Speaker 1: the gear and the technology. These folks really get into

1574
01:31:38,200 --> 01:31:41,519
Speaker 1: this and they think about it. And I don't talk

1575
01:31:41,560 --> 01:31:45,960
Speaker 1: too many that don't perceive an issue, even folks in

1576
01:31:45,960 --> 01:31:48,960
Speaker 1: in that hunt Rio's and Miriam's outfitters that I've been

1577
01:31:49,000 --> 01:31:52,040
Speaker 1: with that look at this and think and in conversations

1578
01:31:52,080 --> 01:31:54,000
Speaker 1: they go, you know what, come to think of it.

1579
01:31:54,680 --> 01:31:57,080
Speaker 1: I hear a lot fewer birds than I did ten

1580
01:31:57,160 --> 01:31:59,200
Speaker 1: years ago or twenty years ago. Still here a lot

1581
01:31:59,240 --> 01:32:01,680
Speaker 1: of birds. I don't hear or see the number of

1582
01:32:01,720 --> 01:32:05,200
Speaker 1: birds that I used to see. And I've heard some

1583
01:32:05,240 --> 01:32:08,920
Speaker 1: other agency biologists in the Southeast. One is a really

1584
01:32:08,920 --> 01:32:12,360
Speaker 1: good friend of Mount Charles, and I've heard him saying

1585
01:32:12,479 --> 01:32:16,200
Speaker 1: in open forums, if you don't have a problem right now,

1586
01:32:16,479 --> 01:32:19,240
Speaker 1: just wait, just give it some time. If you're not

1587
01:32:19,320 --> 01:32:22,559
Speaker 1: seeing declines in your area, just just wait. So how

1588
01:32:23,160 --> 01:32:26,839
Speaker 1: like how precipitous are the declines, like in certain areas,

1589
01:32:26,840 --> 01:32:29,920
Speaker 1: and like how widespread are the declines? Like is there

1590
01:32:30,360 --> 01:32:34,240
Speaker 1: certain regions of the country that are seeing more declines

1591
01:32:35,080 --> 01:32:38,840
Speaker 1: that others? Like how how how is it spreads the

1592
01:32:38,880 --> 01:32:42,320
Speaker 1: productivity declines, which back to what we were talking about earlier,

1593
01:32:42,320 --> 01:32:47,600
Speaker 1: the poltz per him has gone down threefold in like

1594
01:32:47,880 --> 01:32:51,479
Speaker 1: in what places are across the all of the Southeastern states,

1595
01:32:51,880 --> 01:32:55,200
Speaker 1: several of the eastern more kind of eastern Northeastern states,

1596
01:32:55,240 --> 01:32:58,559
Speaker 1: they're also seeing that decline in productivity. What they're not

1597
01:32:58,640 --> 01:33:03,639
Speaker 1: seeing buying law larger drastic declines and harvest. I suspect

1598
01:33:03,720 --> 01:33:06,680
Speaker 1: they may at some point, but we'll see and then

1599
01:33:06,760 --> 01:33:10,439
Speaker 1: several Midwestern states have shown the same trend, but it's

1600
01:33:10,560 --> 01:33:14,679
Speaker 1: a little different in the Midwest because you tennessee turkeys

1601
01:33:14,720 --> 01:33:16,960
Speaker 1: more in a in that agricultural belt or more in

1602
01:33:17,040 --> 01:33:20,559
Speaker 1: kind of pockets, and they're not they're not heavily hunted

1603
01:33:20,560 --> 01:33:24,120
Speaker 1: in some places, and and they are and others, And

1604
01:33:24,400 --> 01:33:27,320
Speaker 1: we don't have a good grasp on reproduction and Rio's

1605
01:33:27,360 --> 01:33:30,719
Speaker 1: and Miriam's and Goulds, we just we don't have those

1606
01:33:30,800 --> 01:33:35,799
Speaker 1: broad data sets we do. They roam and larger chunks

1607
01:33:35,800 --> 01:33:39,160
Speaker 1: of land, they're they're less visible. Well, if you think

1608
01:33:39,200 --> 01:33:41,120
Speaker 1: like Rio's, for instance, a lot of them live on

1609
01:33:41,400 --> 01:33:45,360
Speaker 1: on private lands that are large tracts, and they're they're everywhere.

1610
01:33:45,640 --> 01:33:48,880
Speaker 1: And what we do find from we've banded thousands of

1611
01:33:48,960 --> 01:33:51,760
Speaker 1: Rio's in areas that are hunted, and we see really

1612
01:33:51,760 --> 01:33:55,960
Speaker 1: low harvest rates in general, some really high in pockets,

1613
01:33:56,040 --> 01:34:00,599
Speaker 1: but by and large across the landscape, really low single

1614
01:34:00,640 --> 01:34:04,759
Speaker 1: digit percent. And in the Easterns we see in Easterns

1615
01:34:04,760 --> 01:34:08,400
Speaker 1: we see thirty plus percent on almost every population. You've

1616
01:34:08,400 --> 01:34:11,320
Speaker 1: got a couple for you. I don't even know what

1617
01:34:11,520 --> 01:34:14,920
Speaker 1: I don't even know what the hell one means. Um

1618
01:34:15,200 --> 01:34:18,840
Speaker 1: did a sports question, No, oh, you're looking at I

1619
01:34:18,880 --> 01:34:22,080
Speaker 1: had I had written down Arkansas versus Wisconsin. It seems

1620
01:34:22,160 --> 01:34:24,360
Speaker 1: like this is just in my little world. But it

1621
01:34:24,360 --> 01:34:27,160
Speaker 1: seems like you hear a lot of griping recently out

1622
01:34:27,200 --> 01:34:30,880
Speaker 1: of Arkansas for what's going on with their turkey population.

1623
01:34:31,320 --> 01:34:33,519
Speaker 1: A lot of people are saying that it's just down

1624
01:34:33,520 --> 01:34:36,200
Speaker 1: and out, and then you go to and then in

1625
01:34:36,200 --> 01:34:42,599
Speaker 1: Wisconsin they're killing like what fifty thousand turkeys annually and

1626
01:34:42,680 --> 01:34:44,880
Speaker 1: just you know, it seems to be nuts like, what's

1627
01:34:45,400 --> 01:34:47,879
Speaker 1: what's sort of like the I can it be possible

1628
01:34:47,880 --> 01:34:49,880
Speaker 1: to put it in a nutshell to say, yeah, this

1629
01:34:49,960 --> 01:34:54,080
Speaker 1: is why one's doing great and one's not. Yes, and no,

1630
01:34:54,760 --> 01:34:58,800
Speaker 1: the yes would be in Arkansas, what you've seen is

1631
01:34:58,840 --> 01:35:03,320
Speaker 1: a strong precipitous decline in productivity that's been happening for decades.

1632
01:35:03,439 --> 01:35:05,920
Speaker 1: This is not just something that started. It's been twenty

1633
01:35:06,000 --> 01:35:11,000
Speaker 1: years plus declining productivity to now we're in Arkansas. In

1634
01:35:11,040 --> 01:35:14,320
Speaker 1: some areas they're less than one pulp per hen, which

1635
01:35:14,360 --> 01:35:17,360
Speaker 1: means the flock has to be declining because a lot

1636
01:35:17,400 --> 01:35:20,880
Speaker 1: of the poults you see are are males. So in

1637
01:35:21,040 --> 01:35:24,960
Speaker 1: Arkansas you have a productivity problem to the point where

1638
01:35:25,400 --> 01:35:29,400
Speaker 1: their harvest has declined. They've gone through a number of

1639
01:35:29,640 --> 01:35:33,599
Speaker 1: season changes. In fact, they've changed their season twenty times

1640
01:35:33,600 --> 01:35:36,880
Speaker 1: in the past thirty years, trying to come up with

1641
01:35:36,920 --> 01:35:39,760
Speaker 1: a sweet spot, and that that was one of the

1642
01:35:39,800 --> 01:35:42,360
Speaker 1: reasons I was there The other last week was to

1643
01:35:42,560 --> 01:35:46,360
Speaker 1: talk to their biological staff about why would you even

1644
01:35:46,400 --> 01:35:49,120
Speaker 1: consider moving a season later? Like we've the things we

1645
01:35:49,240 --> 01:35:51,439
Speaker 1: just talked about, those are the things that I think

1646
01:35:52,080 --> 01:35:56,360
Speaker 1: people need to hear so that they understand why an

1647
01:35:56,400 --> 01:35:59,439
Speaker 1: early season could be problematic, not saying it is, but

1648
01:35:59,479 --> 01:36:02,559
Speaker 1: why it would be from the broader sense. So Arkansas

1649
01:36:02,600 --> 01:36:05,759
Speaker 1: is now trying to move to a much later opening

1650
01:36:05,840 --> 01:36:10,040
Speaker 1: date and hopes that most of their breeding has occurred.

1651
01:36:10,400 --> 01:36:12,519
Speaker 1: In fact, I think what they were considering as an

1652
01:36:12,520 --> 01:36:16,320
Speaker 1: April nineteenth opener, which for the Southeast is really late,

1653
01:36:16,600 --> 01:36:19,000
Speaker 1: that that's by far would be the latest except for

1654
01:36:19,040 --> 01:36:22,559
Speaker 1: some pockets in East Texas that have a later April opener,

1655
01:36:23,080 --> 01:36:27,280
Speaker 1: you know, Wisconsin. I think two things. One, you tended

1656
01:36:27,320 --> 01:36:30,719
Speaker 1: to see that turkey hunting exploded in the Southeast long

1657
01:36:30,800 --> 01:36:34,960
Speaker 1: before it did elsewhere, and the Northeast states are just

1658
01:36:35,080 --> 01:36:39,960
Speaker 1: now getting, you know, really heavily hunted populations. They've got

1659
01:36:40,040 --> 01:36:41,880
Speaker 1: a lot of times. They've got a lot of birds

1660
01:36:41,880 --> 01:36:45,200
Speaker 1: out there, and to my buddy Charles's point, maybe they

1661
01:36:45,240 --> 01:36:48,479
Speaker 1: just need to wait because if you if you keep

1662
01:36:48,479 --> 01:36:51,560
Speaker 1: on down this road, you may see problems. Now that

1663
01:36:51,680 --> 01:36:54,439
Speaker 1: the good thing about Wisconsin is their their season dates

1664
01:36:54,439 --> 01:36:57,559
Speaker 1: are more appropriately time with the bird. But they also

1665
01:36:57,680 --> 01:37:00,800
Speaker 1: lay to kill a shipload of them. Yes, and you

1666
01:37:00,840 --> 01:37:04,599
Speaker 1: have says that right in the REGs. Yeah, yeah, Um.

1667
01:37:04,880 --> 01:37:07,320
Speaker 1: I don't know what the bag limit specifically is in

1668
01:37:07,360 --> 01:37:10,360
Speaker 1: Wisconsin is, but in some stace like Alabama's five, I

1669
01:37:10,360 --> 01:37:14,720
Speaker 1: should tell you it's interesting Wisconsin. They I never thought

1670
01:37:14,720 --> 01:37:16,599
Speaker 1: about how it's interesting until right now. And it might

1671
01:37:16,720 --> 01:37:20,240
Speaker 1: be to do with timing out the breeding because they

1672
01:37:20,280 --> 01:37:25,280
Speaker 1: got what a B C D E F seasons seeks

1673
01:37:25,479 --> 01:37:30,080
Speaker 1: a season opening day is very competitive to draw a

1674
01:37:30,080 --> 01:37:32,760
Speaker 1: tag from, not especially non resident You could try for

1675
01:37:32,840 --> 01:37:35,360
Speaker 1: years in that get day, very limited hunting pressure. By

1676
01:37:35,400 --> 01:37:37,799
Speaker 1: the time you get to see which is three weeks

1677
01:37:37,800 --> 01:37:42,400
Speaker 1: in right, then you can pretty much rest assured you'll

1678
01:37:42,439 --> 01:37:48,840
Speaker 1: get after d you can hunt all the damn seasons, right,

1679
01:37:49,080 --> 01:37:54,920
Speaker 1: So they're greatly limiting in some way, putting a throttle

1680
01:37:55,200 --> 01:37:58,960
Speaker 1: on how many people are out there pounding them. Opening day,

1681
01:37:59,000 --> 01:38:03,000
Speaker 1: which is what for a second week in April, where

1682
01:38:03,000 --> 01:38:06,639
Speaker 1: the hell it is? Yeah, very few people. And then

1683
01:38:06,680 --> 01:38:08,960
Speaker 1: by the time you're into mid late May, they just

1684
01:38:09,000 --> 01:38:11,479
Speaker 1: open the floodgates, but a lot of people are burned

1685
01:38:11,479 --> 01:38:14,120
Speaker 1: out by then. You already got a And their assistant

1686
01:38:14,200 --> 01:38:17,200
Speaker 1: game bird coordinator is a former student of mine. She

1687
01:38:17,280 --> 01:38:20,240
Speaker 1: actually studied at at Louisiana State University, but I was

1688
01:38:20,280 --> 01:38:23,640
Speaker 1: on her graduate committee and and she has sent those rags.

1689
01:38:23,760 --> 01:38:27,840
Speaker 1: Some of the southern states do something similar to that,

1690
01:38:27,920 --> 01:38:31,120
Speaker 1: like Missouri has there when their season opens, you can

1691
01:38:31,160 --> 01:38:34,120
Speaker 1: only kill one bird the first week or so. South

1692
01:38:34,120 --> 01:38:37,920
Speaker 1: Carolina just changed their regulations to mimic that they're still

1693
01:38:37,960 --> 01:38:41,759
Speaker 1: opening the first of April, but you can only theoretically legally,

1694
01:38:41,760 --> 01:38:44,200
Speaker 1: you're only supposed to kill one bird early and then,

1695
01:38:44,840 --> 01:38:48,400
Speaker 1: and obviously that's to delay some harvest on into the

1696
01:38:49,120 --> 01:38:51,400
Speaker 1: you know, the later part of April. Other states are

1697
01:38:51,439 --> 01:38:56,000
Speaker 1: just moving the season, the entire statewide season. I suspect,

1698
01:38:56,760 --> 01:38:59,439
Speaker 1: given the momentum that I've seen in the discussions that

1699
01:38:59,479 --> 01:39:02,720
Speaker 1: I've seen recently, I think most states, at least in

1700
01:39:02,720 --> 01:39:08,360
Speaker 1: the Deep South, are considering trying to entertain discussions about

1701
01:39:08,479 --> 01:39:12,439
Speaker 1: bumping it later even if that only means days, and

1702
01:39:12,479 --> 01:39:14,360
Speaker 1: you'll get about, you'll get you'll catch they'll catch a

1703
01:39:14,360 --> 01:39:29,120
Speaker 1: bunch of grief too. Absolutely hid biologists. Yes, hit him

1704
01:39:29,120 --> 01:39:32,320
Speaker 1: with the other question back to goblin, because a lot

1705
01:39:32,320 --> 01:39:35,320
Speaker 1: of some of these states you can't hunt afternoon or

1706
01:39:35,439 --> 01:39:38,479
Speaker 1: one or four. I mean we've hunted at least three

1707
01:39:38,479 --> 01:39:40,760
Speaker 1: different states. I think California was like four pm when

1708
01:39:40,760 --> 01:39:44,000
Speaker 1: we hunted it, Missouri's noon or one. I think what

1709
01:39:44,120 --> 01:39:45,880
Speaker 1: else do we hunt? Last year it might have been

1710
01:39:45,880 --> 01:39:48,599
Speaker 1: like one. We had a quit in time, Pennsylvania's noon

1711
01:39:48,680 --> 01:39:51,400
Speaker 1: the first two weeks. It helps, It keeps to be

1712
01:39:51,479 --> 01:39:53,960
Speaker 1: a sane man. But I don't. I don't like it

1713
01:39:54,040 --> 01:39:56,720
Speaker 1: when I'm there, But man, it keeps you sane, right,

1714
01:39:56,880 --> 01:40:02,240
Speaker 1: get rest? If not, did you pull your eighteen hour days?

1715
01:40:03,160 --> 01:40:06,720
Speaker 1: The proponents, usually we've talked to, like it because they

1716
01:40:06,760 --> 01:40:09,880
Speaker 1: think that it helps the goblin. Limits of pressure helps

1717
01:40:09,880 --> 01:40:12,840
Speaker 1: the goblin. What are your thoughts on that? What are

1718
01:40:12,880 --> 01:40:18,200
Speaker 1: they trying to solve? I suspect just pressure. We don't

1719
01:40:18,280 --> 01:40:23,439
Speaker 1: see a lot of gobbling in the afternoon anyway, um,

1720
01:40:23,479 --> 01:40:25,760
Speaker 1: but I suspect that when they do, you can't kill

1721
01:40:25,840 --> 01:40:28,840
Speaker 1: them anyway. They're hard to kill. At night. I'll tell

1722
01:40:28,840 --> 01:40:35,360
Speaker 1: you what gone the last hour a day. You know,

1723
01:40:35,400 --> 01:40:38,479
Speaker 1: here are some goblin. I get it, but you get

1724
01:40:38,800 --> 01:40:40,519
Speaker 1: you can't help but get all fired up. But if

1725
01:40:40,520 --> 01:40:43,040
Speaker 1: you like review your life, it's not a lot of

1726
01:40:43,080 --> 01:40:47,040
Speaker 1: death dealing happens at five pm. Yeah, see he's by

1727
01:40:47,080 --> 01:40:49,960
Speaker 1: five pm. If he's an hour from the tree, he's already.

1728
01:40:50,240 --> 01:40:54,240
Speaker 1: He has them, he has an agenda. I have had

1729
01:40:54,320 --> 01:40:57,640
Speaker 1: tremendous success killing birds one, two or three o'clock in

1730
01:40:57,640 --> 01:41:00,960
Speaker 1: the after If you can get them to gobbl it's money.

1731
01:41:01,360 --> 01:41:05,559
Speaker 1: I suspect the states that just open later or have

1732
01:41:05,720 --> 01:41:07,960
Speaker 1: that type of season, they're just trying to keep hunters

1733
01:41:07,960 --> 01:41:11,439
Speaker 1: out of the woods and keep the disturbance to a minimum.

1734
01:41:11,560 --> 01:41:14,080
Speaker 1: I honestly can't answer your question. I don't know if

1735
01:41:14,120 --> 01:41:17,960
Speaker 1: that translates to any change in Turkey behavior, because one

1736
01:41:18,520 --> 01:41:21,519
Speaker 1: the populations we study don't really they don't have that.

1737
01:41:22,000 --> 01:41:25,360
Speaker 1: And to like I said, very little gobbling happens in

1738
01:41:25,400 --> 01:41:29,360
Speaker 1: the afternoon anyway, So I don't we would. It would.

1739
01:41:29,439 --> 01:41:31,599
Speaker 1: The signal would have to be so strong in our

1740
01:41:31,680 --> 01:41:34,479
Speaker 1: data set for us to be able to detect it,

1741
01:41:34,520 --> 01:41:38,760
Speaker 1: because such little gobbling is in that time. You know,

1742
01:41:38,800 --> 01:41:41,599
Speaker 1: there's not that much disturb anyway. And plus you're saying

1743
01:41:41,640 --> 01:41:46,040
Speaker 1: that there's the daily hunter disturbances there anyways of every morning. Yeah,

1744
01:41:46,520 --> 01:41:48,680
Speaker 1: to untangle that too. And most of our what we

1745
01:41:48,760 --> 01:41:53,320
Speaker 1: see is most of the gobbling more than se is

1746
01:41:53,360 --> 01:41:56,400
Speaker 1: either in the tree or within the first hour after

1747
01:41:56,479 --> 01:41:59,280
Speaker 1: they fly down, so they're gobbling early and shutting up.

1748
01:42:00,240 --> 01:42:04,360
Speaker 1: Has anyone done a study like this, um to capture

1749
01:42:04,400 --> 01:42:07,160
Speaker 1: this sentiment that i'mna lay out for you, Like, imagine

1750
01:42:08,160 --> 01:42:15,559
Speaker 1: that you put out an electronic collar the hand call

1751
01:42:17,080 --> 01:42:20,439
Speaker 1: and you could somehow measure how many gobblers came within

1752
01:42:20,520 --> 01:42:26,639
Speaker 1: some specified uh distance of the electronic caller, and then

1753
01:42:27,000 --> 01:42:33,759
Speaker 1: you watch that play out over the spring and measure

1754
01:42:33,840 --> 01:42:39,200
Speaker 1: that like as the season wears on our gobblers meaning

1755
01:42:39,560 --> 01:42:41,600
Speaker 1: do they get do they get harder and harder to

1756
01:42:41,680 --> 01:42:44,320
Speaker 1: call as a season wears on because they're scared of

1757
01:42:44,360 --> 01:42:46,920
Speaker 1: getting shot? Or is it some other thing at play?

1758
01:42:47,680 --> 01:42:50,479
Speaker 1: If there has been work in that vein, I don't,

1759
01:42:50,479 --> 01:42:52,160
Speaker 1: I'm not aware of, dude, I would be tutting that

1760
01:42:52,240 --> 01:42:55,519
Speaker 1: on top of my list of ship to study. I

1761
01:42:55,560 --> 01:42:58,599
Speaker 1: think we see that in a lot of populations anyway,

1762
01:42:58,680 --> 01:43:02,240
Speaker 1: because if you if you go to the east or southeast.

1763
01:43:02,280 --> 01:43:06,679
Speaker 1: You see scouting. Scouting starts weeks in advance, and I hear,

1764
01:43:06,960 --> 01:43:09,800
Speaker 1: you know, horror stories I read on social media all

1765
01:43:09,840 --> 01:43:11,839
Speaker 1: the time, and you know, hey, I was out scouting.

1766
01:43:11,880 --> 01:43:14,720
Speaker 1: It's a week before the season. Dude, pull it into

1767
01:43:14,720 --> 01:43:17,840
Speaker 1: the cold sack up the road from me, hit the box,

1768
01:43:17,920 --> 01:43:21,320
Speaker 1: call five times, bird gobbled. Then he walked in spooked

1769
01:43:21,320 --> 01:43:23,960
Speaker 1: the bird type of thing, the flip flop flush here

1770
01:43:23,960 --> 01:43:26,840
Speaker 1: has already been out scouting, scaring them all up. Didn't

1771
01:43:26,840 --> 01:43:30,200
Speaker 1: make one call though, just looking, so I think we

1772
01:43:30,200 --> 01:43:33,120
Speaker 1: can see where they're at. You you may, I suspect

1773
01:43:33,120 --> 01:43:35,880
Speaker 1: there's some truth to the notion that the more we call,

1774
01:43:37,040 --> 01:43:40,120
Speaker 1: because our calling is often to associated with some type

1775
01:43:40,160 --> 01:43:42,800
Speaker 1: of disturbance, whether we try for that to occur or not,

1776
01:43:43,600 --> 01:43:46,960
Speaker 1: that the bird realizes through time that is not a

1777
01:43:47,000 --> 01:43:50,600
Speaker 1: hen and even if it is, I'm going to be

1778
01:43:50,720 --> 01:43:54,000
Speaker 1: really cautious. And and we see this in some of

1779
01:43:54,000 --> 01:43:56,559
Speaker 1: our data where we track hunters and tom's at the

1780
01:43:56,600 --> 01:43:59,880
Speaker 1: same time. So we put GPS units on the toms,

1781
01:44:00,520 --> 01:44:02,840
Speaker 1: and then we give the hunters my next question, and

1782
01:44:02,880 --> 01:44:06,519
Speaker 1: we actually see birds that show up at the site

1783
01:44:06,560 --> 01:44:10,000
Speaker 1: a hunter was at three or four hours later. So

1784
01:44:10,040 --> 01:44:12,559
Speaker 1: the hunter has already left, he's gone, or she's already

1785
01:44:12,560 --> 01:44:14,560
Speaker 1: back at the truck and going to work, and the

1786
01:44:14,680 --> 01:44:17,960
Speaker 1: tom shows up come sniffing around at one pm. Oh

1787
01:44:17,960 --> 01:44:19,840
Speaker 1: that's a question I was gonna ask you, like, if

1788
01:44:19,880 --> 01:44:22,639
Speaker 1: you if you're in the morning calling to a bird

1789
01:44:22,720 --> 01:44:25,400
Speaker 1: and he just like drifts away, is it is it

1790
01:44:25,560 --> 01:44:31,599
Speaker 1: smart to just sit there? Yes? What we we have repeated, Yeah,

1791
01:44:31,680 --> 01:44:35,000
Speaker 1: we have repeated examples of birds that end up where

1792
01:44:35,040 --> 01:44:38,760
Speaker 1: a hunter was hours hours later. Well that goes back

1793
01:44:38,800 --> 01:44:41,800
Speaker 1: to what you were talking a guy about that. He

1794
01:44:42,160 --> 01:44:46,240
Speaker 1: talked about how they'll come come back hours after right, Yeah,

1795
01:44:46,320 --> 01:44:48,720
Speaker 1: because he heard yeh, he marked you even though he's

1796
01:44:48,720 --> 01:44:51,000
Speaker 1: got he got like his morning agenda. And then later

1797
01:44:51,040 --> 01:44:52,600
Speaker 1: he's like, oh, but you know what, I'm gonna go

1798
01:44:52,680 --> 01:44:54,719
Speaker 1: and check on that one. If you think about it,

1799
01:44:54,520 --> 01:44:57,640
Speaker 1: it makes complete sense. What we're asking these birds to

1800
01:44:57,680 --> 01:45:00,760
Speaker 1: do is against their ecology. The tom's are supposed to

1801
01:45:00,840 --> 01:45:02,640
Speaker 1: stand there and display, and the hens are supposed to

1802
01:45:02,680 --> 01:45:04,519
Speaker 1: go to them. Okay, so that is true that one

1803
01:45:04,560 --> 01:45:08,200
Speaker 1: of my in nature, the hen should always go to

1804
01:45:08,360 --> 01:45:10,880
Speaker 1: the gob. Yes, think about the leck. Back to the leck.

1805
01:45:11,439 --> 01:45:13,559
Speaker 1: Those males stand there and display and the hens come

1806
01:45:13,600 --> 01:45:16,920
Speaker 1: to them. We're asking them to flip that. So if

1807
01:45:16,920 --> 01:45:19,280
Speaker 1: you think about the tom that wanders off, he's not

1808
01:45:19,360 --> 01:45:22,800
Speaker 1: wandering off. He's going about his business even if he's

1809
01:45:22,800 --> 01:45:25,880
Speaker 1: not gobbling, and he's displaying and he's doing his other

1810
01:45:25,960 --> 01:45:28,840
Speaker 1: things because in his world, she's supposed to seek him out.

1811
01:45:29,680 --> 01:45:32,519
Speaker 1: And then three hours later he goes, you know what,

1812
01:45:33,400 --> 01:45:36,400
Speaker 1: I haven't scored any opportunities doing the route I was

1813
01:45:36,439 --> 01:45:38,080
Speaker 1: going to take, So I'm going to go over there

1814
01:45:38,120 --> 01:45:40,720
Speaker 1: and and covertly kind of check this area out and

1815
01:45:40,760 --> 01:45:43,200
Speaker 1: see if she's still there. And he doesn't need to

1816
01:45:43,200 --> 01:45:45,519
Speaker 1: gobble to do that. All he's gotta do is strutt

1817
01:45:45,560 --> 01:45:48,439
Speaker 1: and drum and and look, and if he doesn't see her,

1818
01:45:48,880 --> 01:45:50,639
Speaker 1: he high tails it out of there. He moves on.

1819
01:45:50,720 --> 01:45:53,679
Speaker 1: How well do you think he uh like spatially, how

1820
01:45:53,720 --> 01:45:57,080
Speaker 1: tight is he thinking as far as where he thinks

1821
01:45:57,080 --> 01:46:00,880
Speaker 1: she is? Ye, Turkeys have an incredible sense of place.

1822
01:46:01,520 --> 01:46:06,360
Speaker 1: They they know And this comes from conversations I've had

1823
01:46:06,439 --> 01:46:09,400
Speaker 1: with with Bill who imprinted those birds. He would take

1824
01:46:09,439 --> 01:46:12,200
Speaker 1: these birds out and let them forge, and then he

1825
01:46:12,240 --> 01:46:14,439
Speaker 1: would take them back. He was the hen. He would

1826
01:46:14,439 --> 01:46:16,400
Speaker 1: take them back to their pen and put them up

1827
01:46:16,439 --> 01:46:20,760
Speaker 1: at night. And when birds would get lost. He put

1828
01:46:20,840 --> 01:46:23,400
Speaker 1: radios on them, so his pet birds, he had radios

1829
01:46:23,400 --> 01:46:24,880
Speaker 1: on them, so he would go find them the next

1830
01:46:24,960 --> 01:46:28,000
Speaker 1: morning and and help them come back home. And what

1831
01:46:28,080 --> 01:46:30,320
Speaker 1: he found is they didn't need any help. So they

1832
01:46:30,320 --> 01:46:33,320
Speaker 1: would take this this kind of circuitous route while they

1833
01:46:33,320 --> 01:46:35,760
Speaker 1: were foraging, and they'd end up lost, if you will.

1834
01:46:35,800 --> 01:46:38,719
Speaker 1: At night the next morning, they walked a straight line

1835
01:46:38,760 --> 01:46:42,200
Speaker 1: distance directly back to the pen, like they knew exactly

1836
01:46:42,640 --> 01:46:46,800
Speaker 1: exactly which path to take, because they knew exactly where

1837
01:46:46,800 --> 01:46:48,920
Speaker 1: they were going. And what he likened it to, he said,

1838
01:46:48,920 --> 01:46:53,000
Speaker 1: they have an incredible sense of place. They hear, they

1839
01:46:53,040 --> 01:46:56,680
Speaker 1: know exactly Their mapping system is so acute. They know

1840
01:46:56,800 --> 01:47:00,439
Speaker 1: exactly where they think you are, or where they're roost

1841
01:47:00,479 --> 01:47:03,439
Speaker 1: it or whatever resources are there, and they know exactly

1842
01:47:03,439 --> 01:47:05,760
Speaker 1: how to get there. So at any given point in time,

1843
01:47:05,800 --> 01:47:08,200
Speaker 1: if that tom decides he's going back to the place

1844
01:47:08,200 --> 01:47:11,640
Speaker 1: where that hunter is, he knows exactly where that spot is.

1845
01:47:11,640 --> 01:47:15,760
Speaker 1: Is it safe to say they won't leave their lexs

1846
01:47:15,840 --> 01:47:19,519
Speaker 1: zone like to go into another gobbler's territory. Like if

1847
01:47:19,560 --> 01:47:22,519
Speaker 1: you're let's say you're you're hunting and you hear a

1848
01:47:22,560 --> 01:47:26,080
Speaker 1: gobbler on one ridge, and then a quarter mile pass

1849
01:47:26,120 --> 01:47:30,800
Speaker 1: at there's a gobble on another ridge. Like, would that

1850
01:47:30,880 --> 01:47:36,640
Speaker 1: second gobbler come into another gobblers zone? If if their

1851
01:47:36,680 --> 01:47:42,040
Speaker 1: home range encompasses those other birds, which in some cases

1852
01:47:42,080 --> 01:47:44,840
Speaker 1: they do and in some cases they don't. If their

1853
01:47:44,880 --> 01:47:49,160
Speaker 1: home range didn't encompass those birds, it's very likely they're

1854
01:47:49,200 --> 01:47:51,679
Speaker 1: not going to just go wandering. They're going to stay

1855
01:47:51,720 --> 01:47:55,360
Speaker 1: in their range and continue to signal, because that's the range.

1856
01:47:56,160 --> 01:47:58,519
Speaker 1: We do see some tom's that makes some kind of

1857
01:47:59,080 --> 01:48:01,680
Speaker 1: you know, weird move months, particularly when hunters bumped them

1858
01:48:01,760 --> 01:48:05,040
Speaker 1: or something. But by and large, this is not a bird.

1859
01:48:05,320 --> 01:48:07,400
Speaker 1: This is not an animal that's just going to abandon

1860
01:48:07,439 --> 01:48:11,840
Speaker 1: its home range and start wandering around. So I think

1861
01:48:11,880 --> 01:48:14,280
Speaker 1: what's happening is you see, like to your points, you've

1862
01:48:14,280 --> 01:48:16,800
Speaker 1: got birds here gobbling and over here gobbling. Well, when

1863
01:48:16,840 --> 01:48:20,160
Speaker 1: this pocket of birds stops gobbling, why would the other

1864
01:48:20,200 --> 01:48:23,720
Speaker 1: birds gobble If they don't have to go, if there's

1865
01:48:23,760 --> 01:48:27,679
Speaker 1: no gobbling near them, what's their incentive to gobble? So there,

1866
01:48:28,120 --> 01:48:31,799
Speaker 1: once they do, let's say mid morning, start maybe looking

1867
01:48:31,840 --> 01:48:35,800
Speaker 1: for a hen that they heard a little further away,

1868
01:48:35,800 --> 01:48:39,400
Speaker 1: and they're just going back to check that area. They're

1869
01:48:39,400 --> 01:48:42,160
Speaker 1: only gonna do that, like with a with a noise

1870
01:48:42,240 --> 01:48:44,679
Speaker 1: that they heard in their own I'm not only but

1871
01:48:45,120 --> 01:48:51,920
Speaker 1: primarily yeah, absolutely, talk about what you guys found looking

1872
01:48:51,960 --> 01:48:56,679
Speaker 1: at When you put a GPS track and devices on hunters,

1873
01:48:57,360 --> 01:49:01,960
Speaker 1: what do hunters do? They hang around the road, You

1874
01:49:02,000 --> 01:49:07,000
Speaker 1: don't say they Almost all hunter locations we found were

1875
01:49:07,040 --> 01:49:08,960
Speaker 1: within a hundred yards of a road or a path.

1876
01:49:09,960 --> 01:49:12,240
Speaker 1: But I mean, like, but in some states, the hell you?

1877
01:49:12,240 --> 01:49:14,240
Speaker 1: I mean, it's hard to get that, and we haven't.

1878
01:49:14,560 --> 01:49:17,840
Speaker 1: That work has all been Southeastern Eastern stuff, you know.

1879
01:49:18,120 --> 01:49:20,200
Speaker 1: I mean it's hard to There's a lot of roads

1880
01:49:20,320 --> 01:49:24,280
Speaker 1: there are, and people know they can skirt down this

1881
01:49:24,439 --> 01:49:27,519
Speaker 1: firebreak and hear birds, so they stick to the roads,

1882
01:49:27,520 --> 01:49:31,479
Speaker 1: they stick to the paths. And what we found recently

1883
01:49:31,479 --> 01:49:34,439
Speaker 1: with some work is when the season starts, turkeys and

1884
01:49:34,520 --> 01:49:38,240
Speaker 1: hunters do the same thing. So folks start going to

1885
01:49:38,320 --> 01:49:41,599
Speaker 1: places where turkeys are because they scouttered them out or whatever,

1886
01:49:41,760 --> 01:49:45,439
Speaker 1: and then we see this clear divergence after a week

1887
01:49:45,520 --> 01:49:47,800
Speaker 1: or so of the season. Turkeys are doing one thing

1888
01:49:48,000 --> 01:49:50,439
Speaker 1: and hunters are doing something else. In fact, the turkeys

1889
01:49:50,439 --> 01:49:56,280
Speaker 1: are moving away from hunting pressure into human habitation or

1890
01:49:56,320 --> 01:49:59,240
Speaker 1: into like remote areas just into other parts of their

1891
01:49:59,360 --> 01:50:02,360
Speaker 1: range where they're not being disturbed as often. But how

1892
01:50:02,360 --> 01:50:04,320
Speaker 1: do you typify what they like to go towards just

1893
01:50:04,400 --> 01:50:08,240
Speaker 1: away from roads, just away from roads into subdivisions, no,

1894
01:50:08,760 --> 01:50:11,719
Speaker 1: just away from roads. And and that's not all birds.

1895
01:50:11,720 --> 01:50:14,040
Speaker 1: We see some birds that just hunker down and stick

1896
01:50:14,080 --> 01:50:17,519
Speaker 1: it out, and presumably they just quit gobbling and they

1897
01:50:17,560 --> 01:50:21,240
Speaker 1: just hunker and stay there. But we see this divergence

1898
01:50:21,280 --> 01:50:24,120
Speaker 1: and behavior where by the middle of the season, hunters

1899
01:50:24,160 --> 01:50:26,679
Speaker 1: are doing one thing. They're still sticking to the roads,

1900
01:50:26,680 --> 01:50:29,080
Speaker 1: they're behaving the same as they did two weeks prior.

1901
01:50:29,439 --> 01:50:32,519
Speaker 1: Turkeys have changed their strategy, and then by the end

1902
01:50:32,560 --> 01:50:35,599
Speaker 1: of the season they come back together because hunters buying

1903
01:50:35,680 --> 01:50:38,320
Speaker 1: large quit towards the end of the season, and turkeys

1904
01:50:38,360 --> 01:50:40,920
Speaker 1: realize it because there's not as much pressure, so they

1905
01:50:40,960 --> 01:50:43,120
Speaker 1: go back to doing what they were six weeks earlier.

1906
01:50:44,200 --> 01:50:51,040
Speaker 1: Pretty interesting, definitely pressure sensitive. We gotta email, no, no,

1907
01:50:51,120 --> 01:50:52,960
Speaker 1: it was here. If it's the article. I think it

1908
01:50:53,040 --> 01:50:57,080
Speaker 1: was the article someone sent us that in this state

1909
01:50:57,200 --> 01:50:59,320
Speaker 1: here in Montana, they have had I think in the

1910
01:50:59,400 --> 01:51:04,360
Speaker 1: last two years, like twenty four requests you know what

1911
01:51:04,360 --> 01:51:10,640
Speaker 1: I'm talking about of citizens demanding GPS tracking data on

1912
01:51:10,720 --> 01:51:13,680
Speaker 1: game animals, and they have a little choice but to

1913
01:51:13,680 --> 01:51:16,720
Speaker 1: give it to them. They have, and they're so people like, hey,

1914
01:51:16,760 --> 01:51:18,280
Speaker 1: I want to know where there's a bull elk in

1915
01:51:18,479 --> 01:51:20,880
Speaker 1: such and such area where and its radio collar? And

1916
01:51:20,960 --> 01:51:23,919
Speaker 1: apparently apparently the way it works, they have to divulge

1917
01:51:23,920 --> 01:51:29,000
Speaker 1: it its public information. Sure have you guys had that? No? No,

1918
01:51:29,160 --> 01:51:32,160
Speaker 1: we have. People want to know where your turkeys are? No,

1919
01:51:32,360 --> 01:51:35,120
Speaker 1: we have not, because you can tell them exactly where

1920
01:51:35,120 --> 01:51:37,599
Speaker 1: they are. We can, we can tell them with certainty.

1921
01:51:37,600 --> 01:51:40,640
Speaker 1: Now we have. In the past, in the interest of

1922
01:51:40,640 --> 01:51:43,320
Speaker 1: getting data, we have put on I have personally put

1923
01:51:43,400 --> 01:51:47,040
Speaker 1: hunters on birds trying to see how the birds would

1924
01:51:47,040 --> 01:51:49,759
Speaker 1: respond to hunting pressure. When I was putting a really

1925
01:51:49,760 --> 01:51:54,439
Speaker 1: good turkey hunter on them and found some pretty bizarre,

1926
01:51:55,240 --> 01:51:58,320
Speaker 1: crazy thing like what I had this one bird that

1927
01:51:59,280 --> 01:52:02,559
Speaker 1: the youth season opened, and I put a kid and

1928
01:52:02,640 --> 01:52:06,160
Speaker 1: a really good guide, a biologist, turkey hunter, really good

1929
01:52:06,160 --> 01:52:09,680
Speaker 1: guy that he's a killer, put them too on this bird,

1930
01:52:10,000 --> 01:52:12,639
Speaker 1: gave him the GPS, basically said put this in your

1931
01:52:12,640 --> 01:52:14,599
Speaker 1: GPS and you're going to be a hundred yards from

1932
01:52:14,680 --> 01:52:18,559
Speaker 1: him when he when he gobbles the bird. Um came

1933
01:52:18,640 --> 01:52:21,080
Speaker 1: up to him several times during the morning, they never

1934
01:52:21,120 --> 01:52:25,080
Speaker 1: saw him, and he ended up spooking and moving north

1935
01:52:25,280 --> 01:52:28,040
Speaker 1: about a half mile, and then he hung out and

1936
01:52:28,080 --> 01:52:30,519
Speaker 1: he stayed there all week. And then when the general

1937
01:52:30,520 --> 01:52:34,720
Speaker 1: season opened the next weekend, I put another hunter on him,

1938
01:52:35,400 --> 01:52:37,760
Speaker 1: and the hunter went in neew exactly where the bird

1939
01:52:37,920 --> 01:52:41,000
Speaker 1: was a bump the bird. After he flew down, the

1940
01:52:41,040 --> 01:52:43,679
Speaker 1: bird saw him. He traveled a mile and a half

1941
01:52:43,720 --> 01:52:46,320
Speaker 1: to the north to to an area that was about

1942
01:52:46,320 --> 01:52:51,200
Speaker 1: two yards from the check station, and and he stayed

1943
01:52:51,240 --> 01:52:55,600
Speaker 1: there for weeks until a guy killed him who was

1944
01:52:55,760 --> 01:52:59,360
Speaker 1: fighting with his wife. And took off and from the

1945
01:52:59,400 --> 01:53:02,120
Speaker 1: aft for the afternoon to get away from home, went

1946
01:53:02,160 --> 01:53:04,720
Speaker 1: to the check station, parked his truck, walked over the

1947
01:53:04,800 --> 01:53:07,920
Speaker 1: levee to just I'm just going to sit in the woods.

1948
01:53:08,240 --> 01:53:11,400
Speaker 1: Didn't call, put his face mask on, was playing on

1949
01:53:11,439 --> 01:53:13,960
Speaker 1: his phone, and he hears a bird gobble and he

1950
01:53:14,040 --> 01:53:16,720
Speaker 1: calls him once and he kills him. We're already fighting

1951
01:53:16,760 --> 01:53:23,679
Speaker 1: about I didn't have probably turkey hunt. Yeah, yeah, we've

1952
01:53:23,720 --> 01:53:26,160
Speaker 1: we've seen some pretty you know, we've seen some pretty

1953
01:53:26,160 --> 01:53:31,000
Speaker 1: bizarre behaviors, whereas some of these other times frequently encountered hunters.

1954
01:53:31,920 --> 01:53:33,680
Speaker 1: I'd love to know what they're fighting and and they

1955
01:53:33,720 --> 01:53:37,400
Speaker 1: just hunkered down like we had this. We have this

1956
01:53:37,439 --> 01:53:39,720
Speaker 1: one time. I cannot tell you how many hunters he

1957
01:53:39,800 --> 01:53:43,120
Speaker 1: ran into and none of them ever saw him. We'd

1958
01:53:43,160 --> 01:53:45,000
Speaker 1: interview the hunters when they come out of the w

1959
01:53:45,160 --> 01:53:47,760
Speaker 1: m A, so we had their GPS data, we knew

1960
01:53:47,800 --> 01:53:50,400
Speaker 1: where they were, and we knew where the toms were,

1961
01:53:50,880 --> 01:53:52,760
Speaker 1: and we'd interview him. So how many birds did you hear?

1962
01:53:52,800 --> 01:53:55,320
Speaker 1: How many hunters did you see? You know, etcetera, etcetera.

1963
01:53:55,920 --> 01:53:59,599
Speaker 1: And we had this one gentleman who who was right

1964
01:53:59,640 --> 01:54:01,640
Speaker 1: there the bird was and he's like, I didn't hear

1965
01:54:01,680 --> 01:54:04,880
Speaker 1: a bird all morning, I didn't see a bird nothing,

1966
01:54:05,560 --> 01:54:08,559
Speaker 1: And he was literally under this bird all morning. The

1967
01:54:08,600 --> 01:54:11,920
Speaker 1: bird was right there where he was, and he never heard. Yeah,

1968
01:54:11,960 --> 01:54:15,040
Speaker 1: but when they're not that's the thing, man, When they're

1969
01:54:15,040 --> 01:54:19,720
Speaker 1: not calling and not out chasing around, they're just they're there.

1970
01:54:19,760 --> 01:54:21,240
Speaker 1: That's the thing I always tell myself when you're hunting

1971
01:54:21,240 --> 01:54:23,439
Speaker 1: turkey's in the the middle of the day, it's like, dear,

1972
01:54:23,560 --> 01:54:25,200
Speaker 1: you be in some spot hunting deer in the middle

1973
01:54:25,200 --> 01:54:27,320
Speaker 1: of the day and be like he is laid up

1974
01:54:27,360 --> 01:54:30,920
Speaker 1: in a briar patch and you're never gonna get like

1975
01:54:31,120 --> 01:54:32,840
Speaker 1: you're not gonna get onto him. He's laid up in

1976
01:54:32,840 --> 01:54:36,040
Speaker 1: a briar patch. You're not gonna get a shot at

1977
01:54:36,080 --> 01:54:37,880
Speaker 1: him laying there. If you try to go in there,

1978
01:54:37,920 --> 01:54:40,720
Speaker 1: you're gonna blow him out. It's like he's essentially untouchable.

1979
01:54:41,560 --> 01:54:43,560
Speaker 1: But with turkeys it could be too. In the afternoon,

1980
01:54:43,600 --> 01:54:46,320
Speaker 1: like that's some of bitches out right now eating yep,

1981
01:54:46,520 --> 01:54:52,880
Speaker 1: loafing around. He's out perfectly visible somewhere on his feet

1982
01:54:53,640 --> 01:54:56,160
Speaker 1: unless he sees you first. And what I'm saying, but

1983
01:54:56,200 --> 01:54:59,360
Speaker 1: he's not. It's like he's findable and what we see

1984
01:54:59,360 --> 01:55:00,920
Speaker 1: a lot of turk he's due during the middle of

1985
01:55:00,960 --> 01:55:03,400
Speaker 1: the day as they don't move much. They forage in

1986
01:55:03,440 --> 01:55:06,800
Speaker 1: the morning, and then they settled down into a relatively

1987
01:55:06,840 --> 01:55:08,600
Speaker 1: small area during the middle of the day and they're

1988
01:55:08,600 --> 01:55:11,320
Speaker 1: just hanging out, and then they pick it back up

1989
01:55:11,360 --> 01:55:13,160
Speaker 1: in the afternoon. So I think a lot of these

1990
01:55:13,200 --> 01:55:15,320
Speaker 1: times during the middle of the day when you happen

1991
01:55:15,400 --> 01:55:18,520
Speaker 1: to strike one is you just happen to end up

1992
01:55:18,560 --> 01:55:21,320
Speaker 1: close enough to him where he was comfortable in that

1993
01:55:21,320 --> 01:55:24,360
Speaker 1: little loafing area. He may periodically get up and feed

1994
01:55:24,440 --> 01:55:26,720
Speaker 1: or strutt or whatever, and you just struck gold and

1995
01:55:26,800 --> 01:55:29,800
Speaker 1: hit him and got him in the right and he's

1996
01:55:29,840 --> 01:55:33,440
Speaker 1: there because he's loafing there, because he's comfortable there. So

1997
01:55:33,560 --> 01:55:35,800
Speaker 1: you happen to get, just by dumb luck, get close

1998
01:55:35,920 --> 01:55:38,280
Speaker 1: enough to him where you could strike accord with him,

1999
01:55:38,280 --> 01:55:40,320
Speaker 1: and then you kill him. I think that's a lot

2000
01:55:40,360 --> 01:55:43,360
Speaker 1: of it. We're in New Mexico. We're coming down that

2001
01:55:43,440 --> 01:55:45,960
Speaker 1: narrow little cane. We're coming out into sort of where

2002
01:55:47,040 --> 01:55:48,920
Speaker 1: maybe a couple of draanges sort of I don't know

2003
01:55:48,920 --> 01:55:52,040
Speaker 1: if they came together. We're departing each other, but it

2004
01:55:52,120 --> 01:55:54,840
Speaker 1: opened up, you know, into like a fighter zone. Were

2005
01:55:54,920 --> 01:55:58,320
Speaker 1: they actually part they don't part each other, well, depends

2006
01:55:58,320 --> 01:56:00,240
Speaker 1: on what way you're moving up and down on him

2007
01:56:00,520 --> 01:56:04,600
Speaker 1: going down. So another drainage was coming in from our

2008
01:56:04,680 --> 01:56:07,000
Speaker 1: left is a is a big wide open Tell him

2009
01:56:07,000 --> 01:56:10,640
Speaker 1: what we were looking at seconds earlier, Yeah, a turkey

2010
01:56:10,680 --> 01:56:13,520
Speaker 1: carcass that we believe was you know, taken out by

2011
01:56:13,520 --> 01:56:17,760
Speaker 1: a cat, some kind of cat, but somebody had eating him. Anyways,

2012
01:56:18,520 --> 01:56:21,920
Speaker 1: it was like we were in a narrow drainage can

2013
01:56:22,040 --> 01:56:24,480
Speaker 1: you eat sort of thing, And so we're a group

2014
01:56:24,520 --> 01:56:27,200
Speaker 1: of us five or six probably were fairly well hidden

2015
01:56:27,400 --> 01:56:30,160
Speaker 1: from this bigger opening, and right when the first two

2016
01:56:30,240 --> 01:56:31,800
Speaker 1: or three of us sort of popped out and you

2017
01:56:31,800 --> 01:56:35,200
Speaker 1: could see a couple hundred yards not far away, almost

2018
01:56:35,280 --> 01:56:38,560
Speaker 1: within shotgun range, there's a gobbler. And what does he

2019
01:56:38,600 --> 01:56:41,360
Speaker 1: do because he thought he was he had caught us

2020
01:56:41,400 --> 01:56:45,040
Speaker 1: early enough that he just sunk, I mean, just melted

2021
01:56:45,680 --> 01:56:48,760
Speaker 1: his head and neck out on the ground, you know.

2022
01:56:48,880 --> 01:56:51,680
Speaker 1: And something just thinking when you're talking about that guy

2023
01:56:51,760 --> 01:56:53,320
Speaker 1: that was right on top of that turkey. If the

2024
01:56:53,360 --> 01:56:55,600
Speaker 1: turkey was on the ground, he very well just could

2025
01:56:55,600 --> 01:56:58,640
Speaker 1: have sunk into the ground and just laid there for

2026
01:56:58,800 --> 01:57:03,200
Speaker 1: two hours. What How big is the turkey's home range?

2027
01:57:04,400 --> 01:57:08,560
Speaker 1: Several thousand acres in the east southeast. As you move

2028
01:57:08,640 --> 01:57:12,160
Speaker 1: in the Western States, much bigger, and in fact, like

2029
01:57:12,240 --> 01:57:15,600
Speaker 1: Miriam's have and Rio's to a lesser extent, they have

2030
01:57:15,880 --> 01:57:19,480
Speaker 1: fairly large ranges that can change by season. So you'll see,

2031
01:57:19,560 --> 01:57:22,720
Speaker 1: you know, birds that disappear from areas in the winter

2032
01:57:23,240 --> 01:57:25,160
Speaker 1: and then show back up in the spring. And ask

2033
01:57:25,200 --> 01:57:27,640
Speaker 1: about migrations as well, because I feel that here they

2034
01:57:27,680 --> 01:57:30,360
Speaker 1: migrate absolutely, they follow the snow line that they do,

2035
01:57:30,400 --> 01:57:33,440
Speaker 1: and they they have much broader ranges. But if you think,

2036
01:57:33,520 --> 01:57:36,520
Speaker 1: like you know, Easterns are four species and the forest

2037
01:57:36,560 --> 01:57:39,720
Speaker 1: don't change that much from year to year, so they

2038
01:57:39,760 --> 01:57:43,000
Speaker 1: tend to have several thousand acre home ranges. If you

2039
01:57:43,080 --> 01:57:47,879
Speaker 1: encompass the entire year, how many trees take your average gobbler,

2040
01:57:48,400 --> 01:57:51,600
Speaker 1: how many trees does he have that he will roost in?

2041
01:57:52,120 --> 01:57:55,040
Speaker 1: And does he have well he does at randomly add

2042
01:57:55,080 --> 01:57:57,160
Speaker 1: trees to that list or does he like got like

2043
01:57:57,320 --> 01:57:59,800
Speaker 1: I rust they're they're, they're there and there and that's

2044
01:57:59,800 --> 01:58:04,160
Speaker 1: where roost. Each bird has roosting areas that they go to.

2045
01:58:04,920 --> 01:58:07,920
Speaker 1: They don't necessarily use the same tree every time they

2046
01:58:07,960 --> 01:58:12,640
Speaker 1: go there, at least Easterns. Rio's and Miriam's obviously, roost

2047
01:58:12,680 --> 01:58:14,520
Speaker 1: are limited in some of those populations, so they go

2048
01:58:14,600 --> 01:58:16,760
Speaker 1: back to the exact same tree, but Easterns don't do that.

2049
01:58:17,760 --> 01:58:21,960
Speaker 1: We see that almost every gobbler has a handful or

2050
01:58:22,160 --> 01:58:25,760
Speaker 1: more range areas that they use, but they don't use

2051
01:58:25,840 --> 01:58:28,800
Speaker 1: them back to back nights during the spring. They tend

2052
01:58:28,880 --> 01:58:31,800
Speaker 1: to use a roost site here, and then they moved

2053
01:58:31,840 --> 01:58:34,480
Speaker 1: to a different roost that night, and then they moved

2054
01:58:34,480 --> 01:58:37,640
Speaker 1: to a different roost the following night. But other birds

2055
01:58:37,960 --> 01:58:40,840
Speaker 1: will come to the roost that they abandon. Oh that

2056
01:58:41,000 --> 01:58:43,240
Speaker 1: explains a little bit because I read in Colorado they

2057
01:58:43,240 --> 01:58:46,160
Speaker 1: did a study and there's only a thirteen percent chance

2058
01:58:46,240 --> 01:58:48,800
Speaker 1: that the turkey roost and that these gobblers, there's only

2059
01:58:48,840 --> 01:58:50,880
Speaker 1: a thirteen percent chance that heat roost in the same

2060
01:58:50,960 --> 01:58:52,920
Speaker 1: tree two nights in the world. That's right, And if

2061
01:58:52,960 --> 01:58:55,200
Speaker 1: you think about it, you know, back to these legs,

2062
01:58:55,760 --> 01:58:59,240
Speaker 1: they're very likely or places that are good for sound

2063
01:59:00,160 --> 01:59:04,720
Speaker 1: sound to travel, and they're they're somewhat static. Unless there's

2064
01:59:04,960 --> 01:59:07,839
Speaker 1: clear cutting or something that changes the forest, they're probably

2065
01:59:07,880 --> 01:59:11,000
Speaker 1: fairly static. So there are certain places where I hear

2066
01:59:11,040 --> 01:59:12,880
Speaker 1: this all the time. I've been hearing turkeys there for

2067
01:59:12,920 --> 01:59:16,760
Speaker 1: twenty years. Yep, you have, and you didn't hear the

2068
01:59:16,840 --> 01:59:20,240
Speaker 1: same birds night after night. What you actually heard was

2069
01:59:20,360 --> 01:59:23,760
Speaker 1: that this bird moved and his buddy came in and

2070
01:59:23,880 --> 01:59:27,320
Speaker 1: roosted in that same area. Because these birds know there's

2071
01:59:27,360 --> 01:59:31,360
Speaker 1: certain places where sound carries, and that's why they're gobbling.

2072
01:59:31,440 --> 01:59:34,280
Speaker 1: They're gobbling to hear each other and to attract hens.

2073
01:59:34,960 --> 01:59:38,400
Speaker 1: So there's probably some places that are just good roost areas.

2074
01:59:38,760 --> 01:59:41,360
Speaker 1: So what do you think the odds are that, Uh,

2075
01:59:42,160 --> 01:59:45,520
Speaker 1: on Monday I went out, season wasn't open, or or

2076
01:59:45,680 --> 01:59:48,920
Speaker 1: let's just say, you know, it was evening, and I

2077
01:59:49,000 --> 01:59:51,600
Speaker 1: went out and roosted a bird, heard him on a ridge,

2078
01:59:52,040 --> 01:59:54,280
Speaker 1: but I couldn't hunt for two or three days. I

2079
01:59:54,360 --> 01:59:56,640
Speaker 1: go back in there three days later in the morning,

2080
01:59:56,720 --> 02:00:00,280
Speaker 1: on that same ridge, there he is, goblin. Where the

2081
02:00:00,320 --> 02:00:02,800
Speaker 1: odds that that's the same bird I roosted three nights early.

2082
02:00:02,840 --> 02:00:05,760
Speaker 1: If it was three nights later, there's a decent chance

2083
02:00:05,840 --> 02:00:07,440
Speaker 1: that may be the same bird. If it was the

2084
02:00:07,520 --> 02:00:10,800
Speaker 1: next night, there's a better chance it's not. There's a

2085
02:00:10,840 --> 02:00:13,800
Speaker 1: better chance that he's somewhere else than him being there

2086
02:00:14,080 --> 02:00:16,760
Speaker 1: two nights in a row. Now, turkeys are like people,

2087
02:00:17,080 --> 02:00:19,560
Speaker 1: and they're like deer and everything else. They're all different.

2088
02:00:19,680 --> 02:00:22,960
Speaker 1: So we do. We've had some times that man, they

2089
02:00:23,000 --> 02:00:25,200
Speaker 1: were they were money, going back to the same spot

2090
02:00:25,320 --> 02:00:26,960
Speaker 1: every night for three or four nights in a row,

2091
02:00:27,080 --> 02:00:30,920
Speaker 1: sneaky pete. But by and large across the population, that's

2092
02:00:30,960 --> 02:00:33,920
Speaker 1: not a strategy they use. And which is what's interesting

2093
02:00:34,040 --> 02:00:35,880
Speaker 1: is if you they don't do that from the time

2094
02:00:35,960 --> 02:00:38,760
Speaker 1: their poults, I mean, brood hens don't roost in the

2095
02:00:38,840 --> 02:00:41,760
Speaker 1: same spot two nights in a row. They move roost

2096
02:00:41,880 --> 02:00:44,560
Speaker 1: every night, And if you think about it, that makes

2097
02:00:44,600 --> 02:00:47,280
Speaker 1: sense from a predation standpoint. Don't go signal in the

2098
02:00:47,400 --> 02:00:51,839
Speaker 1: same spot every night because you're just attracting undue attention.

2099
02:00:51,960 --> 02:00:55,520
Speaker 1: Move around a little bit, and don't pigeonhole yourself to

2100
02:00:55,600 --> 02:00:58,640
Speaker 1: the same place, you know, like rio's have to do that.

2101
02:00:59,200 --> 02:01:01,800
Speaker 1: They have limited roost sites, and there may be four

2102
02:01:01,880 --> 02:01:04,440
Speaker 1: or five trees and an entire home range that are

2103
02:01:04,520 --> 02:01:07,520
Speaker 1: roost locations, and they go back there every night. But

2104
02:01:08,280 --> 02:01:12,120
Speaker 1: Rio's roost in large numbers, and in large numbers their safety.

2105
02:01:12,200 --> 02:01:15,600
Speaker 1: There's more eyes, there's more ears, there's more predator detection.

2106
02:01:16,120 --> 02:01:18,640
Speaker 1: You got an eastern that's standing there with him and

2107
02:01:18,720 --> 02:01:21,320
Speaker 1: his buddy is right down the ridge and there it's

2108
02:01:21,360 --> 02:01:24,600
Speaker 1: just two of them. Just so people who aren't familiar.

2109
02:01:25,440 --> 02:01:29,080
Speaker 1: Rio's have limited roosting because they're riparian. That limited the

2110
02:01:29,160 --> 02:01:31,960
Speaker 1: ripe parian areas, that's right. They could be surrounded by

2111
02:01:32,240 --> 02:01:36,000
Speaker 1: pine ridges, arid area with no trees, yes, And and

2112
02:01:36,360 --> 02:01:40,640
Speaker 1: you're seeing across the rio range cotton woods are really

2113
02:01:40,720 --> 02:01:44,160
Speaker 1: important tree species for them, and in many areas you're

2114
02:01:44,160 --> 02:01:48,080
Speaker 1: seeing widespread loss of cotton woods to disease issues, and

2115
02:01:48,840 --> 02:01:52,400
Speaker 1: that's causing a drastic reduction and roost availability to the

2116
02:01:52,440 --> 02:01:55,600
Speaker 1: point where some of our rio's only have we have

2117
02:01:55,800 --> 02:01:58,440
Speaker 1: several marked birds that have only had to roost in

2118
02:01:58,480 --> 02:02:01,640
Speaker 1: their entire home range. So you flip a coin, they're

2119
02:02:01,640 --> 02:02:03,120
Speaker 1: going to be at one of those two clumps of

2120
02:02:03,160 --> 02:02:05,200
Speaker 1: cotton woods every night. You know what you're talking about

2121
02:02:05,240 --> 02:02:07,520
Speaker 1: having a great tree where people can hear you. Um.

2122
02:02:07,720 --> 02:02:12,840
Speaker 1: You see that with blue grouse Alaska when you can

2123
02:02:12,920 --> 02:02:14,480
Speaker 1: you can hunt them in the spring on their calling

2124
02:02:15,520 --> 02:02:17,880
Speaker 1: and you go and find them, and sometimes they'll be

2125
02:02:18,000 --> 02:02:21,080
Speaker 1: like you got like a big main ridge and there's

2126
02:02:21,120 --> 02:02:23,280
Speaker 1: a finger ridge coming off at that finger ridge and

2127
02:02:23,400 --> 02:02:26,040
Speaker 1: have kind of a hump that sticks out. It would

2128
02:02:26,040 --> 02:02:29,360
Speaker 1: be some giant tree leaning out over that thing. And

2129
02:02:29,440 --> 02:02:31,720
Speaker 1: then he's up on that thing and he's just broadcast

2130
02:02:31,800 --> 02:02:33,680
Speaker 1: into the world. Man. You know, he's just like hanging

2131
02:02:33,720 --> 02:02:36,440
Speaker 1: out looking out over everything, you know, And you get

2132
02:02:36,520 --> 02:02:38,360
Speaker 1: up there and be like, I bet you he's got

2133
02:02:38,480 --> 02:02:39,920
Speaker 1: to be in that tree, right, And he's in just

2134
02:02:40,040 --> 02:02:43,160
Speaker 1: some crazy tree where he's like like got a megaphone

2135
02:02:43,240 --> 02:02:45,920
Speaker 1: up there. That's interesting. That is the one other burden

2136
02:02:46,440 --> 02:02:49,080
Speaker 1: big bird that you can hunt during this ring. But

2137
02:02:49,160 --> 02:02:51,800
Speaker 1: it's limited in scope, very limited. It's only a few weeks.

2138
02:02:51,880 --> 02:02:56,440
Speaker 1: And I suspect how many harvested during the spring. I

2139
02:02:56,520 --> 02:02:59,920
Speaker 1: don't I think that it's we went. It's a tough

2140
02:03:00,080 --> 02:03:03,080
Speaker 1: punt and it's like that, it's like everything, like everything's

2141
02:03:03,080 --> 02:03:05,800
Speaker 1: at a forty five degree angles. Yeah. We took like

2142
02:03:05,880 --> 02:03:07,880
Speaker 1: a forty five minute boat ride to go to a

2143
02:03:08,040 --> 02:03:11,280
Speaker 1: remote island to, you know, to hunt him. So I

2144
02:03:11,280 --> 02:03:13,280
Speaker 1: don't think there's a ton of pressure. I wouldn't think so.

2145
02:03:13,480 --> 02:03:15,880
Speaker 1: But man, it's like it's great if I had to,

2146
02:03:16,000 --> 02:03:17,800
Speaker 1: if I could do that, or hunt turkey's. I have

2147
02:03:17,800 --> 02:03:21,080
Speaker 1: a hard time decide. I've never hunted the blue grouse,

2148
02:03:21,160 --> 02:03:24,360
Speaker 1: but I tried for sure. It's fun, man, But you

2149
02:03:24,440 --> 02:03:28,200
Speaker 1: gotta go with our friend Barb whatever. Just show you

2150
02:03:28,240 --> 02:03:30,360
Speaker 1: what's up. Not you driver, you you pull your hair out.

2151
02:03:30,760 --> 02:03:33,720
Speaker 1: I could I could see that being very being very frustrating,

2152
02:03:34,160 --> 02:03:37,560
Speaker 1: just thinking about what you just said. Steep inclines a

2153
02:03:37,680 --> 02:03:40,200
Speaker 1: lot of work and then it doesn't pay off well,

2154
02:03:40,840 --> 02:03:43,400
Speaker 1: kind of like that, like when you hear a turkey

2155
02:03:43,400 --> 02:03:45,080
Speaker 1: guy we start getting close, you kind of be like, well,

2156
02:03:45,160 --> 02:03:48,120
Speaker 1: he must be right over there. These things, the sound,

2157
02:03:48,840 --> 02:03:54,080
Speaker 1: the noise they make, which is you can't place it. Oh,

2158
02:03:54,240 --> 02:03:57,640
Speaker 1: so it's unplaced, breaks down in the environment. You're just like,

2159
02:03:57,960 --> 02:04:00,040
Speaker 1: I don't know, man, somewhere within a hundred yards me,

2160
02:04:00,120 --> 02:04:03,880
Speaker 1: there's a bird doing that noise. I don't know what direction. Yeah,

2161
02:04:07,040 --> 02:04:10,760
Speaker 1: that would make sense. It's more like, um, it's like

2162
02:04:10,840 --> 02:04:14,200
Speaker 1: you kind of feel it, canaring it or feeling it.

2163
02:04:15,560 --> 02:04:17,760
Speaker 1: You kind of know he's drumming over in that area,

2164
02:04:17,800 --> 02:04:21,240
Speaker 1: but out a rough grouse drum. The drumming is a

2165
02:04:21,280 --> 02:04:23,400
Speaker 1: little different from where you thought it was. I had

2166
02:04:23,440 --> 02:04:25,720
Speaker 1: it right there, and in reality it's right over there. Yeah,

2167
02:04:25,760 --> 02:04:28,320
Speaker 1: you can basically be like within a hundred I can

2168
02:04:28,360 --> 02:04:31,360
Speaker 1: tell you within about a hundred eighty degrees where yeah, yeah, yeah,

2169
02:04:32,680 --> 02:04:35,000
Speaker 1: what else we got, Johnnie, I just want to follow

2170
02:04:35,120 --> 02:04:38,720
Speaker 1: up a little bit more on the predator populations, like

2171
02:04:39,600 --> 02:04:42,920
Speaker 1: outside of low fur prices, what else is causing the

2172
02:04:43,000 --> 02:04:47,880
Speaker 1: big boom we see? Snakes are a huge predator of

2173
02:04:48,160 --> 02:04:51,960
Speaker 1: of eggs and poults, and I don't remember seeing that

2174
02:04:52,120 --> 02:04:55,240
Speaker 1: when I was a student. If you look at many

2175
02:04:55,320 --> 02:04:58,240
Speaker 1: areas of the of the United States, particularly that you

2176
02:04:58,320 --> 02:05:02,840
Speaker 1: know where I do most of my work, it's become brushier, shrubbier, woodier,

2177
02:05:03,760 --> 02:05:11,280
Speaker 1: less prescribed fire less land disturbance, um pine monoculture, edges, fragmentation,

2178
02:05:11,480 --> 02:05:15,760
Speaker 1: and snakes benefit from that. So we see snakes account

2179
02:05:15,840 --> 02:05:20,400
Speaker 1: for nest loss on some sites. Yeah, yes, rat snakes

2180
02:05:20,440 --> 02:05:23,440
Speaker 1: and they killed the poults. Uh. And a friend of

2181
02:05:23,480 --> 02:05:27,160
Speaker 1: mine who's A who's yeah, who's our hurt guy at

2182
02:05:27,240 --> 02:05:30,040
Speaker 1: u g A has has told me that rat snakes

2183
02:05:30,160 --> 02:05:33,760
Speaker 1: all snakes down. Yeah. He said that rat snakes are

2184
02:05:34,160 --> 02:05:38,240
Speaker 1: really savvy sage predators that they tend to revisit nest.

2185
02:05:38,640 --> 02:05:40,560
Speaker 1: So if they go and they eat three or four

2186
02:05:40,640 --> 02:05:43,720
Speaker 1: eggs in this area, they'll go back and keep searching

2187
02:05:43,760 --> 02:05:46,040
Speaker 1: and keep searching and keep searching until they get all

2188
02:05:46,080 --> 02:05:49,600
Speaker 1: the eggs. Yeah. So if you think about it, even

2189
02:05:49,680 --> 02:05:52,440
Speaker 1: if she's laying right, if she hasn't finished the clutch

2190
02:05:52,640 --> 02:05:55,680
Speaker 1: and the snake shows up and picks all four at

2191
02:05:55,720 --> 02:05:58,800
Speaker 1: snakes going back to that clutch before it's over satting,

2192
02:05:58,840 --> 02:06:01,920
Speaker 1: you know, all said and done. The Old Testament is right, man. Yeah.

2193
02:06:02,040 --> 02:06:04,880
Speaker 1: And and and John was telling me that buddy of mine,

2194
02:06:04,920 --> 02:06:06,640
Speaker 1: he was like, man, if if the the eggs are there,

2195
02:06:06,640 --> 02:06:09,240
Speaker 1: they're going to find them. So how do you think

2196
02:06:09,240 --> 02:06:14,240
Speaker 1: they're finding them from smell? They keen sense of smell

2197
02:06:14,320 --> 02:06:17,040
Speaker 1: as a snake has it. They also are visual predators.

2198
02:06:17,200 --> 02:06:21,000
Speaker 1: They sit in shrub mid story understory, and they watch

2199
02:06:21,960 --> 02:06:24,240
Speaker 1: and there's they got good long, they got long some

2200
02:06:24,400 --> 02:06:26,640
Speaker 1: type of long range type of vision that they know

2201
02:06:26,880 --> 02:06:31,480
Speaker 1: something is there. And I think probably what's happening is

2202
02:06:31,640 --> 02:06:35,560
Speaker 1: as these birds are leaving their clutches for recesses right there,

2203
02:06:35,560 --> 02:06:38,320
Speaker 1: moving away and back and forth, that through time the

2204
02:06:38,440 --> 02:06:41,040
Speaker 1: sense the key the snake keys in on that nest

2205
02:06:41,120 --> 02:06:43,680
Speaker 1: site and it doesn't take that many days. And if

2206
02:06:43,720 --> 02:06:47,400
Speaker 1: they're numerically more of these snakes, then there were that

2207
02:06:47,560 --> 02:06:50,440
Speaker 1: just through the law of averages, more nests are going

2208
02:06:50,520 --> 02:06:53,320
Speaker 1: to be eaten. So to your question that snakes are

2209
02:06:53,600 --> 02:06:56,840
Speaker 1: are an important predator by far, and there's more of

2210
02:06:56,960 --> 02:07:01,000
Speaker 1: them because the habitat is good for them. Yes, Basically,

2211
02:07:01,080 --> 02:07:03,400
Speaker 1: what we've done is create a landscape that's better for

2212
02:07:03,560 --> 02:07:08,680
Speaker 1: predators than turkeys basically in many areas. Here's my last

2213
02:07:08,760 --> 02:07:14,440
Speaker 1: question for you. Why do uh why did turkey? When

2214
02:07:14,480 --> 02:07:18,440
Speaker 1: you shoot a turkey sometimes his buddies beat the hell

2215
02:07:18,520 --> 02:07:21,720
Speaker 1: out of him. How is their desire to get each

2216
02:07:21,760 --> 02:07:24,760
Speaker 1: other when they're down higher than their desire to get

2217
02:07:24,800 --> 02:07:27,760
Speaker 1: away from a loud, sudden gunshot, Like, what is it

2218
02:07:27,880 --> 02:07:29,960
Speaker 1: in them that's so keyed up to wait for a

2219
02:07:30,040 --> 02:07:33,160
Speaker 1: moment of weakness. That's their social hierarchy. That's that pecking

2220
02:07:33,320 --> 02:07:37,000
Speaker 1: order where Turkey I was. I've been told turkeys they

2221
02:07:37,120 --> 02:07:39,440
Speaker 1: fight from the time they're young, and they never forget

2222
02:07:39,480 --> 02:07:42,320
Speaker 1: a grudge. They carry a grudge their entire lives. So

2223
02:07:42,440 --> 02:07:47,560
Speaker 1: they're around these other birds that have beaten them, and

2224
02:07:47,640 --> 02:07:50,480
Speaker 1: when you shoot that bird, he is suddenly vulnerable, even

2225
02:07:50,520 --> 02:07:52,440
Speaker 1: if you're the dominant. But they make that decision so

2226
02:07:52,640 --> 02:07:57,040
Speaker 1: fast because this is ingrained. This is what structures their populations.

2227
02:07:57,280 --> 02:08:00,640
Speaker 1: These social hierarchies start from day one of a of hatching,

2228
02:08:01,240 --> 02:08:04,919
Speaker 1: and they this is the ladder. That ladder has dictated

2229
02:08:04,960 --> 02:08:07,760
Speaker 1: their entire lives. So when that ladder, when one of

2230
02:08:07,840 --> 02:08:10,960
Speaker 1: those steps gets broken, the guy that's under that's the

2231
02:08:11,000 --> 02:08:15,040
Speaker 1: step below immediately sees that as a sign of weakness

2232
02:08:15,200 --> 02:08:17,960
Speaker 1: and he is going to attack that bird that's socially

2233
02:08:18,040 --> 02:08:21,000
Speaker 1: above him and win so that he can move up

2234
02:08:21,040 --> 02:08:24,640
Speaker 1: a step and he kill it. Well, he's well, they

2235
02:08:24,680 --> 02:08:26,600
Speaker 1: don't really kill each other. They just beat the hell

2236
02:08:26,640 --> 02:08:28,400
Speaker 1: out of it. You never see one actually get like,

2237
02:08:28,760 --> 02:08:31,480
Speaker 1: let's say they're in a fight and he gets or whatever.

2238
02:08:31,560 --> 02:08:34,480
Speaker 1: A bird gets weakened by something. Will they ever harass

2239
02:08:34,560 --> 02:08:37,080
Speaker 1: it to the point of killing it. Oh well, they will.

2240
02:08:37,320 --> 02:08:39,360
Speaker 1: They will injure each other to the point where they

2241
02:08:39,440 --> 02:08:41,920
Speaker 1: can suffer mortalities from it, because then it's just it

2242
02:08:42,040 --> 02:08:45,400
Speaker 1: just compounds against They spur each other, they cut each other.

2243
02:08:45,600 --> 02:08:48,440
Speaker 1: They if they get injuries, the other birds pack at

2244
02:08:48,480 --> 02:08:50,480
Speaker 1: those injuries if it's on the head. So you kind

2245
02:08:50,480 --> 02:08:52,600
Speaker 1: of have to isolate birds that are injured if they're

2246
02:08:52,600 --> 02:08:55,560
Speaker 1: in captivity, because they'll they will hurt each other. So

2247
02:08:55,640 --> 02:08:58,320
Speaker 1: when these tom see the other their buddy on the ground,

2248
02:08:58,600 --> 02:09:00,880
Speaker 1: that's an opportunity to move up in the pecking order.

2249
02:09:01,280 --> 02:09:02,840
Speaker 1: That's what they're doing. And they're able to make that

2250
02:09:02,960 --> 02:09:06,080
Speaker 1: call like that instantaneous because that that pecking order has

2251
02:09:06,120 --> 02:09:09,000
Speaker 1: structured their life from the time that they were little.

2252
02:09:09,520 --> 02:09:11,960
Speaker 1: So that's all they know. See, I looked to think

2253
02:09:12,000 --> 02:09:16,760
Speaker 1: that something happened to me. Yanni went just instantaneously. I've

2254
02:09:16,760 --> 02:09:19,560
Speaker 1: seen him looking at the funny out there like a

2255
02:09:19,720 --> 02:09:24,160
Speaker 1: trip and he just jumps out like Seth, Seth, I

2256
02:09:24,280 --> 02:09:26,080
Speaker 1: know you know how to do that turniquet, but you

2257
02:09:26,120 --> 02:09:29,160
Speaker 1: don't need to do it that not that put it

2258
02:09:29,240 --> 02:09:32,320
Speaker 1: around his neck. We never we never got back to Shoplin.

2259
02:09:32,440 --> 02:09:36,160
Speaker 1: We gotta have him back. We didn't get to Turkey

2260
02:09:36,200 --> 02:09:39,360
Speaker 1: Tuesday either. Oh no, we're gonna do that. Okay, tell

2261
02:09:39,400 --> 02:09:41,880
Speaker 1: people about Turkey Tuesay. I like Turkey Tuesday. Yeah, Turkey

2262
02:09:41,920 --> 02:09:44,040
Speaker 1: Tuesday started, So I go check it out by Slay.

2263
02:09:44,040 --> 02:09:45,920
Speaker 1: I gotta click. I gotta click the file with button?

2264
02:09:46,080 --> 02:09:48,840
Speaker 1: Please do that? Would that would help? Yeah? I just

2265
02:09:49,000 --> 02:09:52,520
Speaker 1: opened up Instagram. Yeah, so it's at wll Turkey Doc

2266
02:09:53,040 --> 02:09:57,480
Speaker 1: on Twitter and Instagram wal Turkey Doc. There are Wild

2267
02:09:57,520 --> 02:10:01,040
Speaker 1: Turkey Doc Mike Chamberlin. I'm opening to page. Yeah. So

2268
02:10:01,240 --> 02:10:04,360
Speaker 1: every Tuesday I fall back. I like it already because

2269
02:10:04,360 --> 02:10:09,040
Speaker 1: I'm seeing like diagrams and charts and yep, yep. That's

2270
02:10:10,560 --> 02:10:14,400
Speaker 1: no grip and grins, not yet. That's my ways a

2271
02:10:14,480 --> 02:10:16,960
Speaker 1: duck grip and grin. That's my way of putting a

2272
02:10:17,000 --> 02:10:19,680
Speaker 1: little bit of science out to people who may not

2273
02:10:19,840 --> 02:10:23,320
Speaker 1: see it and in a digestible way where they can

2274
02:10:23,760 --> 02:10:27,040
Speaker 1: appreciate why we do research and what it means. Oh,

2275
02:10:27,120 --> 02:10:31,640
Speaker 1: here's a here's a diagram, just for instance. It's a

2276
02:10:31,960 --> 02:10:36,280
Speaker 1: chart showing um prescribed burns. Yeah. How how how the

2277
02:10:36,360 --> 02:10:39,400
Speaker 1: scale of fires affects turkeys? Yep, yep. And that's a

2278
02:10:39,480 --> 02:10:42,440
Speaker 1: modeling word that came about to a point you made earlier.

2279
02:10:43,520 --> 02:10:47,520
Speaker 1: Um former student works as a state agency biologist. He

2280
02:10:47,640 --> 02:10:53,280
Speaker 1: posts on Facebook and he absolutely gets chewed alive and

2281
02:10:53,960 --> 02:10:58,600
Speaker 1: it really made me mad because he couldn't respond. And

2282
02:10:58,800 --> 02:11:00,520
Speaker 1: I said, right then, I was like, you know what,

2283
02:11:00,840 --> 02:11:03,520
Speaker 1: every week, I'm going to put something out there because

2284
02:11:03,560 --> 02:11:06,200
Speaker 1: I can respond. I have academic freedom and I can

2285
02:11:06,480 --> 02:11:09,520
Speaker 1: I can go back and forth. And it was so

2286
02:11:09,640 --> 02:11:12,440
Speaker 1: clear to me when Jeremy, who's the Turkey coordinator in Arkansas,

2287
02:11:12,520 --> 02:11:15,400
Speaker 1: when he made that post he couldn't respond to the

2288
02:11:15,520 --> 02:11:18,880
Speaker 1: two people that were criticizing him because they were misinformed.

2289
02:11:19,680 --> 02:11:21,840
Speaker 1: And right there, I said, you know what, I don't

2290
02:11:21,880 --> 02:11:24,840
Speaker 1: get paid to do this, to to to post on

2291
02:11:24,960 --> 02:11:27,000
Speaker 1: social media. I don't get credit for it per se.

2292
02:11:27,880 --> 02:11:30,280
Speaker 1: But I'm going to do this because this is a

2293
02:11:30,400 --> 02:11:33,760
Speaker 1: form where people can digest what I do. Now, if

2294
02:11:33,840 --> 02:11:35,960
Speaker 1: I can just take the ability to to to give

2295
02:11:36,000 --> 02:11:39,040
Speaker 1: it to him in a easily degestible way where they

2296
02:11:39,080 --> 02:11:42,200
Speaker 1: can appreciate what research is being done and why it's

2297
02:11:42,200 --> 02:11:44,800
Speaker 1: important to them, then every week I'm going to post

2298
02:11:44,880 --> 02:11:47,839
Speaker 1: something and I'm going to get as much momentum started

2299
02:11:47,880 --> 02:11:50,640
Speaker 1: as I can so that people understand the issues facing

2300
02:11:50,680 --> 02:11:54,920
Speaker 1: this bird and it's it's been great. I mean started,

2301
02:11:54,920 --> 02:11:57,360
Speaker 1: as you can imagine, it started slow, but recently it's

2302
02:11:57,400 --> 02:12:02,240
Speaker 1: really exploded. And it's awesome because I get people that

2303
02:12:03,360 --> 02:12:06,640
Speaker 1: that don't see academic work. They have no idea that

2304
02:12:06,760 --> 02:12:09,200
Speaker 1: I even exist. They don't they don't know what I'm doing,

2305
02:12:09,280 --> 02:12:11,280
Speaker 1: that I've been studying this birth for twenty five years.

2306
02:12:11,360 --> 02:12:13,400
Speaker 1: They have no idea who I am, they don't know

2307
02:12:13,520 --> 02:12:16,240
Speaker 1: the research it's ongoing. But when they see those posts,

2308
02:12:16,960 --> 02:12:20,160
Speaker 1: they suddenly realized that there's something and being done that

2309
02:12:20,400 --> 02:12:23,680
Speaker 1: I can relate to, and I think is is relevant

2310
02:12:23,800 --> 02:12:26,840
Speaker 1: to me as a hunter and a land manager. So

2311
02:12:26,960 --> 02:12:29,320
Speaker 1: I'm going to follow it. And if every post is

2312
02:12:29,360 --> 02:12:32,960
Speaker 1: not to their liking, fine, But I also respond to

2313
02:12:32,960 --> 02:12:35,560
Speaker 1: the naysayers, people that are critical of me or the work.

2314
02:12:36,080 --> 02:12:38,040
Speaker 1: I try to go back and revisit those posts and

2315
02:12:38,120 --> 02:12:42,640
Speaker 1: try to help explain two people that may not understand

2316
02:12:43,160 --> 02:12:47,240
Speaker 1: the science and what we're doing why it's important to them.

2317
02:12:47,360 --> 02:12:49,400
Speaker 1: I'm looking at I'm looking at your March third post

2318
02:12:49,560 --> 02:12:52,120
Speaker 1: right now, and it's a map. It's a satellite photograph

2319
02:12:52,200 --> 02:12:55,160
Speaker 1: of an area that's sixteen square miles and on it

2320
02:12:55,280 --> 02:12:59,720
Speaker 1: are six thousand one yellow dots all GPS locations where

2321
02:13:00,000 --> 02:13:04,000
Speaker 1: in turkey hangs out. So she's using she's using sixteen

2322
02:13:04,040 --> 02:13:08,320
Speaker 1: square miles, but the dots show of that where she

2323
02:13:08,480 --> 02:13:11,920
Speaker 1: likes to be. Yes. Think about that map, and there's

2324
02:13:12,000 --> 02:13:15,800
Speaker 1: big areas where she doesn't do ship she never goes,

2325
02:13:15,840 --> 02:13:18,920
Speaker 1: and there's big areas where she really really likes it. Yep,

2326
02:13:19,080 --> 02:13:22,040
Speaker 1: she has to maintain a sixteen square mile home range

2327
02:13:22,360 --> 02:13:25,040
Speaker 1: to be able to find those pockets. That's a problem.

2328
02:13:25,560 --> 02:13:28,160
Speaker 1: That bird should only maintain a couple of square miles.

2329
02:13:29,240 --> 02:13:32,600
Speaker 1: Back years ago, we didn't see sixteen square mile home ranges.

2330
02:13:32,680 --> 02:13:34,960
Speaker 1: The only reason a bird that's scaled to be the

2331
02:13:35,040 --> 02:13:38,480
Speaker 1: size of a turkey would move sixteen square miles is

2332
02:13:38,600 --> 02:13:42,120
Speaker 1: because they have to doesn't have So she's trying to

2333
02:13:42,200 --> 02:13:45,080
Speaker 1: balance energy to intake with energy loss and it takes

2334
02:13:45,080 --> 02:13:48,040
Speaker 1: her sixteen square miles to do that. To me, that's

2335
02:13:48,040 --> 02:13:51,160
Speaker 1: a habitat problem. That's something that I think most people

2336
02:13:51,200 --> 02:13:53,320
Speaker 1: would look at that map that Steve looking at and think,

2337
02:13:53,520 --> 02:13:56,440
Speaker 1: wait a minute, if he's telling us that is I mean,

2338
02:13:56,480 --> 02:13:58,760
Speaker 1: if you think sixteen square miles, that's a huge area.

2339
02:13:59,680 --> 02:14:02,360
Speaker 1: If a herkey's using that and I only own five

2340
02:14:02,440 --> 02:14:06,400
Speaker 1: hundred acres that birds disappearing from my land for weeks

2341
02:14:06,520 --> 02:14:09,640
Speaker 1: or months on end, and I whatever I'm doing is

2342
02:14:09,680 --> 02:14:11,840
Speaker 1: not benefiting this bird because they're not even on my

2343
02:14:11,960 --> 02:14:14,960
Speaker 1: property anymore. You know. It speaks to the need that

2344
02:14:15,160 --> 02:14:17,200
Speaker 1: we need to cooperate, We need to we need to

2345
02:14:17,280 --> 02:14:19,560
Speaker 1: think bigger about how we're managing how it's that for

2346
02:14:19,640 --> 02:14:21,160
Speaker 1: this bird. That was kind of the reason for that.

2347
02:14:22,360 --> 02:14:26,480
Speaker 1: Four hours ago you posted a chart that shows gobbling

2348
02:14:26,760 --> 02:14:32,680
Speaker 1: activity and barometric pressure correlated to barometric pressure. Yeah, so

2349
02:14:33,000 --> 02:14:37,440
Speaker 1: all the gobbling research done previous to this use people

2350
02:14:38,080 --> 02:14:41,400
Speaker 1: two to record gobbles. So their data sets had like

2351
02:14:41,960 --> 02:14:46,680
Speaker 1: five hundred gobbles. That has a hundred seventy thousand and

2352
02:14:47,240 --> 02:14:49,800
Speaker 1: and and we related to weather variables, and we see

2353
02:14:49,920 --> 02:14:52,640
Speaker 1: like that figure shows that if you on on any

2354
02:14:52,680 --> 02:14:55,960
Speaker 1: given day, if you have an average barometric pressure whatever

2355
02:14:56,040 --> 02:14:59,040
Speaker 1: they average is that day, if the barometric pressure starts

2356
02:14:59,240 --> 02:15:03,160
Speaker 1: rising point oh three inches right or point three inches,

2357
02:15:03,520 --> 02:15:07,840
Speaker 1: you see this market increase in gobbling activity. And conversely,

2358
02:15:08,320 --> 02:15:11,000
Speaker 1: if the pressure is declining, you might as well stay

2359
02:15:11,000 --> 02:15:14,240
Speaker 1: in bad right, because this is going to create like

2360
02:15:14,360 --> 02:15:16,920
Speaker 1: it's gonna be hard. Just a bunch of Mark Kenyan

2361
02:15:16,960 --> 02:15:23,280
Speaker 1: type turkey hunters man's you know this next year? Tuesday?

2362
02:15:23,440 --> 02:15:29,320
Speaker 1: The third? What's so? What's that? You know? You always

2363
02:15:29,360 --> 02:15:32,680
Speaker 1: hear people? I heard five gobbles this morning? Heard it

2364
02:15:32,760 --> 02:15:36,520
Speaker 1: was a thousand gobars morning. What in reality, since you

2365
02:15:36,640 --> 02:15:41,200
Speaker 1: know I'm in off of one censor, how far can

2366
02:15:41,240 --> 02:15:44,120
Speaker 1: you hear? How several hundred yards all the way around?

2367
02:15:44,280 --> 02:15:46,280
Speaker 1: What's the most gobbles one of those things ever logged

2368
02:15:46,280 --> 02:15:49,800
Speaker 1: in today? A couple of hundred? Yeah, that's it? Yeah,

2369
02:15:49,840 --> 02:15:53,120
Speaker 1: Because I mean, if you think gobble gobble, goals fly

2370
02:15:53,280 --> 02:16:00,360
Speaker 1: down and then they're moving away from the oh because okay,

2371
02:16:00,400 --> 02:16:02,120
Speaker 1: so you think you're not picking up a lot of

2372
02:16:02,160 --> 02:16:03,640
Speaker 1: the stuff he does on the ground because he moves

2373
02:16:03,640 --> 02:16:06,040
Speaker 1: away some I didn't think that. Sometimes I've sat there

2374
02:16:06,360 --> 02:16:08,760
Speaker 1: under a bird in a tree and you think he

2375
02:16:08,800 --> 02:16:10,840
Speaker 1: gobbles a hundred times before he flies down. When you

2376
02:16:10,920 --> 02:16:13,760
Speaker 1: start actually counting that, you don't get anywhere close to

2377
02:16:13,840 --> 02:16:15,600
Speaker 1: a hundred. I've done the same thing. I've sat there

2378
02:16:15,600 --> 02:16:17,680
Speaker 1: and thought, man, he has gobbling his head off eighteen

2379
02:16:18,240 --> 02:16:21,120
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty, and he flies down, it's like thirty four.

2380
02:16:21,160 --> 02:16:23,520
Speaker 1: And I would have texted my Bundy and said, gobbled

2381
02:16:23,520 --> 02:16:31,080
Speaker 1: two four. I'm gonna do a better job accounting. Yeah,

2382
02:16:31,720 --> 02:16:34,640
Speaker 1: and you're twenty five years of research. What's the most

2383
02:16:34,800 --> 02:16:40,439
Speaker 1: like surprising thing you've learned about turkeys? The most surprising

2384
02:16:40,560 --> 02:16:45,080
Speaker 1: thing cook them drumsticks long enough for good yea. UM,

2385
02:16:45,680 --> 02:16:49,200
Speaker 1: I would say without question the things that I published

2386
02:16:49,280 --> 02:16:52,800
Speaker 1: that were false, that's been the biggest surprise. Like I

2387
02:16:52,879 --> 02:16:55,600
Speaker 1: published a paper years ago saying that Hen's went out

2388
02:16:55,680 --> 02:16:58,880
Speaker 1: and searched for nest sites. Right, they went and looked

2389
02:16:58,959 --> 02:17:01,040
Speaker 1: for these really good nest sites. Because a lot of

2390
02:17:01,080 --> 02:17:04,000
Speaker 1: people have found the same thing. And in reality we

2391
02:17:04,080 --> 02:17:06,040
Speaker 1: see now they don't do any of that. They don't

2392
02:17:06,520 --> 02:17:08,760
Speaker 1: they literally fly down the day they're going to lay

2393
02:17:08,800 --> 02:17:11,280
Speaker 1: the first egg and they go find a spot to nest.

2394
02:17:11,840 --> 02:17:14,640
Speaker 1: They don't visit these sites days in advance or weeks

2395
02:17:14,680 --> 02:17:17,920
Speaker 1: in advance. They don't go pick this perfect spot like

2396
02:17:18,040 --> 02:17:21,280
Speaker 1: I thought they used to. So I've actually found that

2397
02:17:21,400 --> 02:17:25,200
Speaker 1: my own science was garbage, that that work was flawed,

2398
02:17:25,320 --> 02:17:27,440
Speaker 1: and it was flawed because of technology. We just didn't

2399
02:17:27,480 --> 02:17:29,879
Speaker 1: have the technology that we had, so we were inferring

2400
02:17:30,080 --> 02:17:33,480
Speaker 1: things that were inaccurate. It's good that you're comfortable, um

2401
02:17:34,680 --> 02:17:37,120
Speaker 1: admitting that moving on and not doubling down on I

2402
02:17:37,200 --> 02:17:39,560
Speaker 1: don't because that's what science is about. If you can't

2403
02:17:39,560 --> 02:17:42,840
Speaker 1: admit your own errors and flaws, then you shouldn't be

2404
02:17:42,920 --> 02:17:45,440
Speaker 1: in the academic. Well, that's why my father liked to

2405
02:17:45,520 --> 02:17:49,560
Speaker 1: discount all sciences, because because the story would change. So

2406
02:17:50,040 --> 02:17:52,959
Speaker 1: if like, if the story changed, he just was like, yeah,

2407
02:17:53,000 --> 02:17:55,440
Speaker 1: I screw the whole thing. Yesterday it was this, and

2408
02:17:55,480 --> 02:17:57,280
Speaker 1: today it says so. Therefore, I just live in a

2409
02:17:57,800 --> 02:18:01,120
Speaker 1: factless world rather than just sort of embracing the prices.

2410
02:18:01,200 --> 02:18:03,560
Speaker 1: If somebody comes along twenty years from now and proves

2411
02:18:03,640 --> 02:18:06,920
Speaker 1: me wrong, then I would welcome that because that meant

2412
02:18:06,959 --> 02:18:10,240
Speaker 1: that somebody cared enough to go revisit those questions for

2413
02:18:10,280 --> 02:18:13,400
Speaker 1: the resource, the people. These people change their minds all

2414
02:18:13,480 --> 02:18:16,720
Speaker 1: the time. If Mike is wrong and his assertions, then

2415
02:18:16,800 --> 02:18:22,480
Speaker 1: he was wrong, But at least science is moving forward. Seth.

2416
02:18:22,920 --> 02:18:24,800
Speaker 1: That was Broidy's concluder. What do you what do you

2417
02:18:24,840 --> 02:18:28,920
Speaker 1: say to people that say turkeys are dumb animals? They

2418
02:18:29,000 --> 02:18:32,280
Speaker 1: can do some stupid things. Understand, they have a brain

2419
02:18:32,400 --> 02:18:38,080
Speaker 1: that's quite small in their environment. They're incredibly savvy until

2420
02:18:38,120 --> 02:18:42,000
Speaker 1: it's time to breed, uh, and then they can do

2421
02:18:42,160 --> 02:18:44,800
Speaker 1: some Tom's can do some stupid things, as we all know.

2422
02:18:45,760 --> 02:18:48,119
Speaker 1: But by and large, I mean, this is a bird

2423
02:18:48,240 --> 02:18:52,720
Speaker 1: that in its own environment is quite intelligent. In the

2424
02:18:52,840 --> 02:18:56,280
Speaker 1: breeding season, all bets are off. So that's kind of

2425
02:18:56,520 --> 02:19:00,600
Speaker 1: even though even like what you just said, that sounds

2426
02:19:00,680 --> 02:19:04,320
Speaker 1: like they smarten up to there the pressure during during

2427
02:19:04,360 --> 02:19:06,560
Speaker 1: the breeding season, during the hunting season. If they didn't,

2428
02:19:06,560 --> 02:19:11,800
Speaker 1: we wouldn't have many. I mean they obviously become yeah, inadaptable,

2429
02:19:11,879 --> 02:19:19,160
Speaker 1: absolutely absolutely all right, Doctor Michael Chamberlain. Michael Chamberlain, c

2430
02:19:19,560 --> 02:19:22,040
Speaker 1: H A M B E R L A I N

2431
02:19:23,760 --> 02:19:28,040
Speaker 1: found on Instagram a wild Turkey doc Twitter two on Facebook.

2432
02:19:28,400 --> 02:19:30,840
Speaker 1: Yeah on Twitter, it's the same handling. On Facebook, it's

2433
02:19:30,879 --> 02:19:34,520
Speaker 1: just my name. Yeah, I'm an instagram man, me too.

2434
02:19:34,800 --> 02:19:36,760
Speaker 1: But you know why, because people don't get all keyed

2435
02:19:36,840 --> 02:19:40,840
Speaker 1: up on politics Facebook. They get all riled up. They

2436
02:19:40,879 --> 02:19:45,360
Speaker 1: get on Facebook like and then they go over to

2437
02:19:45,480 --> 02:19:47,760
Speaker 1: like some hunting thing and they're pissed. Yeah, it's a

2438
02:19:47,800 --> 02:19:52,200
Speaker 1: different demographic Instagram. Lets that what's going on on Yeah,

2439
02:19:52,480 --> 02:19:54,320
Speaker 1: you catch them in a different movie. If somebody gets

2440
02:19:54,360 --> 02:19:57,279
Speaker 1: cranky and fussy at me and cheesay on Facebook, almost

2441
02:19:57,320 --> 02:20:00,560
Speaker 1: always it's never already riled up or Instagram. They were

2442
02:20:00,600 --> 02:20:05,720
Speaker 1: mad before they ever logged on. What's this guy turkey?

2443
02:20:05,800 --> 02:20:08,280
Speaker 1: He thinks he knows about turkeys. Yeah, I've been hunting

2444
02:20:08,320 --> 02:20:11,560
Speaker 1: turkeys my whole life. What you're saying is you know garbage.

2445
02:20:11,680 --> 02:20:15,640
Speaker 1: I get that. Yeah, I'm sure it's okay. Uh all right,

2446
02:20:16,000 --> 02:20:19,400
Speaker 1: I followed you. I had looked previously, but now I

2447
02:20:19,480 --> 02:20:25,600
Speaker 1: follow Awesome, Thank you, thanks you go following Instagram. Let's

2448
02:20:25,680 --> 02:20:28,760
Speaker 1: let's let's smoke his number up. Also, we gotta present

2449
02:20:28,840 --> 02:20:31,560
Speaker 1: with our T shirt. So here's our T shirt. It

2450
02:20:31,680 --> 02:20:34,760
Speaker 1: says it's a circle, and inside the circle is a turkey,

2451
02:20:35,320 --> 02:20:38,360
Speaker 1: and the circle says me eater sounds that make a

2452
02:20:38,480 --> 02:20:42,800
Speaker 1: turkey gobble. And then within the then the turkey is

2453
02:20:42,879 --> 02:20:46,760
Speaker 1: filled in with things that make a sampling. Ice cream trucks,

2454
02:20:46,959 --> 02:20:51,039
Speaker 1: sonic booms, cattle guards, antlers, ratlin, revving motorcycles, the calls

2455
02:20:51,080 --> 02:20:54,520
Speaker 1: of a loon, monastery bells. These are all user sourced.

2456
02:20:55,040 --> 02:21:01,080
Speaker 1: Shotgun blasts, rumble strips, loosening log nuts, artillery fire, ambulance sirens,

2457
02:21:01,320 --> 02:21:06,160
Speaker 1: dropping anchors, the braise of a jackass kicking rusty hunks

2458
02:21:06,200 --> 02:21:09,560
Speaker 1: of metal, the calls of a peacock, woodpeckers hammering on trees,

2459
02:21:10,120 --> 02:21:14,080
Speaker 1: squeaky door hinges, dry heaves, rocks, thrown it, stop signs,

2460
02:21:14,160 --> 02:21:19,080
Speaker 1: train whistles, dog whistles, elk bugles, kyle halls, helicopters, and

2461
02:21:19,280 --> 02:21:22,440
Speaker 1: thunder the dry we only just scratch the surface. We

2462
02:21:22,520 --> 02:21:25,560
Speaker 1: got a list of curl your hair. I'll wear it

2463
02:21:25,640 --> 02:21:29,400
Speaker 1: with I'll wear it with pride. Knowing that whoever came

2464
02:21:29,480 --> 02:21:31,800
Speaker 1: up with a dry heaves example, that had to be

2465
02:21:31,879 --> 02:21:34,960
Speaker 1: a hell of a story. Three people really wrote in

2466
02:21:35,240 --> 02:21:39,200
Speaker 1: about puking and getting rips from it. I'm not going

2467
02:21:39,280 --> 02:21:43,840
Speaker 1: to try three people I designed anyway. Yeah, we're too

2468
02:21:43,920 --> 02:21:47,480
Speaker 1: old for that. Well, I appreciate you can considerably man

2469
02:21:48,000 --> 02:21:52,160
Speaker 1: like a real part of life. Been there there, I

2470
02:21:52,200 --> 02:21:55,959
Speaker 1: appreciate the opportunity to be here, all right, thank you. Yep.