WEBVTT - 1/12/26: Senator Chris Van Hollen On ICE, Gaza, Schumer & MORE! 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:01.599 Hey, guys, Saga and Crystal here. 0:00:01.680 --> 0:00:05.240 Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election, 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:07.840 and we are so excited about what that means for 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:08.760 the future of the show. 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:10.760 This is the only place where you can find honest 0:00:10.760 --> 0:00:13.280 perspectives from the left and the right that simply does 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:14.640 not exist anywhere else. 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:17.080 So if that is something that's important to you, please 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:19.599 go to Breakingpoints dot com. Become a member today and 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:22.880 you'll access to our full shows, unedited, ad free, and 0:00:23.040 --> 0:00:25.600 all put together for you every morning in your inbox. 0:00:25.680 --> 0:00:27.560 We need your help to build the future of independent 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:29.880 news media and we hope to see you at Breakingpoints 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:33.360 dot com. 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:36.120 Welcome to our recurring segment Get to Know a Senator. 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:40.919 The previous guests have been JdE Vance, Ted Cruz, Alyssa Slotkin, 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:42.320 Jeff Markley, who else. 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:46.760 We let's see see Bernie. We've had Bernie. 0:00:46.760 --> 0:00:47.400 Oh, we had Bernie. 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:47.760 Yeah. 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:50.400 Anyway, So if your boss hasn't been on there yet, 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:52.400 reach on out to us. But today we're talking to 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:55.480 Senator Chris van holland Senator Van Allen. 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:57.040 Thank you so much for joining us here. 0:00:57.080 --> 0:01:00.000 I really appreciate it's great to be with both of you. 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:02.080 One thing and this was kind of the bait to 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:04.640 get you into the studio that I wanted to talk 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:07.040 to you about was and I don't know if you 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:09.320 remember this, many many years ago I mentioned to you 0:01:10.480 --> 0:01:15.679 that before the Iraq War, I had been among twenty 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:18.440 thirty people at a talk you gave at the University 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:23.840 of Maryland where you laid out in incredibly prescient detail 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:29.360 like why we should not invade Iraq and what would 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:32.600 happen if we did. Unfortunately, as Penties know, as we 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:36.000 did and those things happened. With the helpier staff, we 0:01:36.000 --> 0:01:39.160 actually found evidence that this happened. If we can put up 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:42.240 this element on the screen. This is from the Diamondback, 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:45.880 which is the student newspaper for the University of Maryland. 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:50.480 So Monday, March third, twenty two thousand and three, this 0:01:50.560 --> 0:01:55.520 is an advertisement for a talk that Congress and Chris 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:59.640 van Holland would be giving from twelve to one thirty pm. 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:03.360 You had just been elected November of two thousand and two, 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:06.400 so you're sworn in in January of two thousand and three, 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:12.520 and the war starts within within two months. So just 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:15.680 briefly lay out for us, like how did you see 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:19.120 what others didn't and what did you think was going 0:02:19.200 --> 0:02:19.560 to happen? 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:22.880 And well, thanks for bringing that up. 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:26.040 And I actually remember that speech on the House floor 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:27.399 because it's one of the earlier ones. 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:29.079 I'd just been elected. 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:30.720 Well and you gave a speech on the House floor 0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:35.560 like a week later. Yeah exactly, yeah exactly. And look, 0:02:36.400 --> 0:02:38.520 this sort of brings us to the moment where in 0:02:38.600 --> 0:02:41.080 now with respect to many challenges. 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:42.520 But when it came to Iraq, I mean, we all 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:46.680 recognized that Saddam Hussein was a bad dictator. I would 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:49.919 have liked to see him go. But the question was 0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:55.120 how do you most successfully do that? And the Bush 0:02:55.160 --> 0:03:00.920 administration's answer was you invade Iraq. And the problem is 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:04.799 when you go in and break stuff, you really need 0:03:04.840 --> 0:03:07.000 to know what's going to happen next. It's easy to 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:10.440 go in and break stuff. It's building stuff back that's 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:14.320 really hard. And nation building is something that is I 0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:16.440 think we've learned the hard way that we should not 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:18.200 be engaged in. 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:23.280 So yeah, look, so that was opening. 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:25.920 I called it Pandora's box, right, because what we did 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:29.760 was when we went into Iraq, we unleashed all these forces, right, 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:33.639 the different sectarian forces within Iraq and then we tried 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:35.520 to put a cap on them, and that didn't work, 0:03:35.560 --> 0:03:38.560 and the result was American forces on the ground for 0:03:38.600 --> 0:03:42.320 a long time, thousands of Americans killed, thousands and thousands 0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:46.920 of Iraqis killed, and the end result was actually to 0:03:47.000 --> 0:03:52.120 strengthen Iran right by getting rid of remember saying we 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:55.400 strengthened Iran because they had been mortal enemies. I mean, 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:58.920 they'd fought a war against one another. So the biggest 0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:04.360 beneficiary from the US going into Iraq was Iraq. 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:07.440 Yeah, you know, I when I expressed a lot of 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:10.920 admiration for you and the courage that you've had on Gaza, 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:13.160 you know, I know that was very difficult, especially under 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:16.280 the Biden administration, going down to a Olsavador with kilmar 0:04:16.360 --> 0:04:18.720 bergo Garcia at a time when there were other democrats ors. 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:20.360 Oh, we shouldn't talk about this. This isn't a good 0:04:20.400 --> 0:04:21.000 issue for US. 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:24.320 I'm curious how you sort of arrived at your worldview. 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:26.520 I know you're born in Pakistan and your parents I 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:28.880 think when was a state department one with Cia. You know, 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:32.200 what has that journey been like so that you came 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:35.200 to that place where you were able to see what 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:37.360 many weren't on Irock and have continued to be able 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:39.719 to see some things that people are either not willing 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:41.280 to see or unable to see. 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:42.320 So you're right. 0:04:42.360 --> 0:04:44.680 I grew up in a foreign service family career. My 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:47.240 father was a career diplomat. He went into the Navy 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:50.360 and then into the Foreign service. He married my mom, 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:53.080 who was at the forerunner to the CIA. Okay, at 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:56.400 the time, she was a Russian language expert. She was 0:04:56.440 --> 0:04:58.800 the daughter of an English teacher, but she became a 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:03.280 Russian language expert. So look growing up overseas and it's 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:04.479 kind of like a military family. 0:05:04.520 --> 0:05:08.680 You go overseas, you come back. But it does get 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:10.920 you thinking about what does America stand for? 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:13.479 And I was proud to represent or be part of 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:16.840 a family that represented the United States overseas. It also 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:19.760 causes you to hold up a mirror and say, are 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:22.479 we as good at home as we say we are? 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:28.560 And in terms of my worldview, I believe in the 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:31.880 power of America's example in addition to the power of 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:35.560 our military. And I think it's really important that we recognize, 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:38.040 especially at a moment like we're in right now, that 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:41.280 that has really benefited us over time and we're throwing 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:46.000 away the power of our example standing up for principles overseas. 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:50.760 But it also you know, I remember very clearly in 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:53.520 Sri Lanka because my father was posted in Sri Lanka 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:59.479 going to a village and in the hut that belonged 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:02.120 to the head of the village, there was a photograph 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:04.279 on the wall and it's kind of hard to see 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:04.880 was dim light. 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:07.360 It was a photograph of John F. Kennedy. 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:12.280 Why was that there because the Peace Corps had been 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:15.760 to that village and help with their water and sanitation. 0:06:16.560 --> 0:06:19.480 So I've always believed that the United States can play 0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:22.839 a very important role around the world through the power 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:26.280 of its example and not the overly reliant on the 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:28.640 power of our military. 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:33.599 Now you would come to your knowledge of the sectarian 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:37.080 situation in Iraq in a curious wave in the you 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:39.599 get this story a little bit for our audience. So 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:44.720 in the early nineties, you and Peter Gallbraith, who was 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:47.239 actually a brother of a friend of mine, James Gallbrath, 0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:50.520 then happened to be the son of John Kenneth Gallbright, 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:54.360 the famous twentieth century economists. You guys are hill staffers 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:57.839 and do a very unhill staffer thing, which is sneak 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:02.360 into northern Iraq, the Kurdish region. Yeah, grab a whole 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:05.559 bunch of documents and interviews with people there, and prove 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:11.520 that Sodam Hussein had used chemical weapons that presumably we 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:16.440 had sold him on the Kurdish people, Like how did 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:19.640 you get in? How does the boss sign off on that? 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:23.120 And what what did you like? How did that shape 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:27.280 your your politics? Knowing that our ally had done this 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:30.960 with our I don't know, not with our backing, because 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:34.080 but we kind of encouraged the Kurds to rise up 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:40.160 and then we let him gas them with our chemical weapons. 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:44.120 Like yeah, so you've yeah, I'm glad you brought this up. 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:46.000 You're right. I was a staff member on the Senate 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:47.080 Foreign Relations. 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:53.400 Committee in the nineteen nineties. Actually, I'm sorry, in the 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:58.360 nineteen eighties. This is late nineteen nineteen eighty eightish, and 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:01.880 Saddam Hussein had unleashed his chemical weapons on the Kurds 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:04.520 in the northern part of Iraq, and so, yes, Peter 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:07.280 Gabraith and I traveled to the Turkish Iraq border. 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:09.720 We crossed into Iraq. 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:12.920 Most of the interviews we did were with the Kurdish 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:16.160 refugees who had fled into Turkey, and there were just 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:21.040 these massive camps, and we actually camped out on the border. 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:22.960 How we got permission to do it, I don't know, 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:28.280 But we then interviewed a lot of the members folks 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:30.640 in these camps who gave us sort of first hand 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:33.319 accounts of Saddam Hussein's use of chemical weapons because a 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:37.000 lot of people were denying it. And I remember to 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:42.440 this day to your point on who provided the precursor chemicals. 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:46.040 It wasn't necessarily sold the chemical weapons with the material 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:47.320 that was used. 0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:50.360 I remember American chemical companies. 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:54.560 Lobbying against the legislation we proposed when we got back, 0:08:54.640 --> 0:08:59.959 because we proposed full sanctions on Saddam Hussein economic sanctions 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:02.920 at the time, and we were able to ultimately get 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:05.480 that out of the Senate that died in the House. 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:09.440 But there's no doubt that the United States had sided 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:15.240 with Saddam Hussein during that Iran Iraq war. 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:18.520 And so yes, the hypocrisy. 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:22.360 Of on the one hand, providing support to Saddam Hussein 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:27.480 and then turning around and trying to condemn his use, 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:30.920 which was right to condemn, is something that always stood 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:31.320 out to me. 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:34.520 I love to get your sort of before we zoom 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:37.440 in more specifically to the immediate moment. I love to 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:39.640 get your sense of how we ended up here, I 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:41.959 was saying earlier in the show, like at least then 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:44.880 Bush neocons felt the need to make some public case 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:47.360 and like gin up some fake story about weapons of 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:51.760 mass destruction. Now we're so downgraded in the war propaganda 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:54.720 that we get machine guns and you know, them just 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:57.160 out and out saying no, it's for the oil. Like 0:09:57.240 --> 0:09:59.560 we're just we want the oil. We're going to run 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:03.000 the place. It's ours complete colonial project. But you know, 0:10:03.040 --> 0:10:05.240 people are also right in pointing out that, you know, 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:08.920 we did do something similar in Panama, it had more 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:12.160 sort of like moralism and justification wrapped around it. So 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:16.679 do you see those past interventions over years sort of 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:19.959 leading us to this place now where we just out 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:22.480 and out are like global thugs that if you have 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:24.440 something we want, we're just going to come in and 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:24.800 take it. 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:29.600 So I think that when you're talking about going into Iraq, 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:36.320 that was heavily pushed by the neocons, who stated public 0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:40.880 purpose anyway was to bring democracy to places in the 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:42.040 Middle East, including Iraq. 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:43.000 At the barrel of a gun. 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:47.520 And if we've learned any lesson it should be that 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:53.000 you cannot by force just transform in a whole society. 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:57.199 In the case of Venezuela, it is all about the oil. 0:10:57.360 --> 0:11:00.320 I mean I came out very early and said, you know, 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:02.600 this is all about the oil. And then Donald Trump 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:04.680 gets up the next day and says, it's all. 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:06.000 About the oil. 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:10.640 And of course with this administration, the Trump administration, more 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:14.760 than in any other earlier conflict, it's all about making 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:17.160 money for Trump's billionaire. 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:19.440 Friends, like you know, and for himself and himself and 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:19.920 his family. 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:22.200 I mean, if you look at what's happening across the 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:24.760 Middle East and the Gulf States, I mean the corruption 0:11:25.200 --> 0:11:30.960 is just so gross. I mean, everything everything they touch, 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:34.000 they're trying to transform into dollars for Trump and his. 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:35.360 Family and his billionaire buddies. 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:38.480 I mean, if you look at Venezuela, it's not necessarily 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:40.840 so much the oil companies, although in the long run 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:43.920 they they may benefit. But they're people like Paul Singer, 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:48.520 who is this huge Trump donor who bought Citgo out 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:52.839 of bankruptcy in November, and others like that who are 0:11:53.000 --> 0:11:56.560 huge beneficiaries of this and had sort of been you know, 0:11:57.160 --> 0:11:57.920 told about it. 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:00.040 I mean, they people, you know, they knew that this 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:00.679 might happen. 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:05.880 So I will say that this administration, the corruption piece. 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:08.160 Is just prevalent throughout. 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:12.679 Yeah, so I'm curious, Yeah, how you view American power 0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:16.959 abroad given that these mask off moments that we've had, 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:19.719 whether it's the Iraq War, whether it's going into Venezuela. 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:23.200 And I'll put the question to you in terms of 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:25.760 the country you do understand quite well, haven't been born 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:30.720 there Pakistan. And in twenty twenty two, when the Russia 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:33.959 Ukraine War breaks out, the Prime Minister at the time, 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:36.640 in Ron Khan says that he's going to remain neutral 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:41.280 in this war. US wanted Pakistan producing shells for Ukraine. 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:46.720 US wanted Russia to be isolated. The State Department told 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:48.800 him that they found that to be offensive and they 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:53.280 called it a posture of aggressive neutrality, which is kind 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:57.760 of a bizarre term to begin with, and told the 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:01.920 ambassador that if a vote of no confidence was held 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:05.199 and Immoran Khan was removed from power, relations between the 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:07.840 United States would be better and quote all all would 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:10.240 be forgiven was the phrase that this this one diplomatic 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:12.800 I think you think, you know, Don Low would used 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:17.120 Since then the military has basically taken over a dictatorial 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:21.080 control in Pakistan, and the and the US through Biden 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:24.960 and then through Trump completely behind them, like no pretense 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:29.480 of you know, support for Pakistani democracy, So that that's 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:33.320 more of a mask on American power moment. So is 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:37.160 is that like, is that who we are globally? Like, 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:41.000 at what point do we say that the United States 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:44.840 is this is this is just what we do. Sometimes 0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:48.160 we do it politely behind the scenes. Sometimes we do 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:50.319 it with with guns. Sometimes we do it with a 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:52.600 delta force, sometimes we do it with an occupation force. 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:55.920 How and how have you kind of confronted that as 0:13:55.920 --> 0:13:58.920 somebody who has kind of grown up in that in 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:02.480 that in that where there's this belief among the Foreign 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:06.080 Service that we are with the Peace Corps, were living 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:08.760 up to these values around the world, Like are. 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:12.480 We so well, we're certainly not at this particular moment, 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:18.040 and we've never been perfect by any means, But I 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:20.920 do believe that if you talk to Foreign Service officers 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:24.000 and others, you know, representing the United States around the world, 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:29.760 supporting the principles of human rights, rule of law, freedom 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:33.760 and democracy is an important part of what we stand for, 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:36.680 and I would argue it's a very important part of 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:39.359 why the United States does have influence. 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:43.040 Now. I know you did a lot of reporting on Pakistan. 0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:43.840 You're absolutely right. 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:47.600 If you look at Pakistan today, it's hard to call 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:53.320 it a democracy. You know, they have the elements of 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:56.600 the democracy, but in terms of how it's functioning, so 0:14:56.680 --> 0:14:58.480 much of the control right now, as you know, as 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:01.760 in the Army chief of Staff and you know, I've 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:05.960 written to the Pakistani ambassador here. He didn't love my 0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:09.560 letter pointing out that, you know, we need free and 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:15.840 fair elections in Pakistan. So there's another example where we 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:19.400 are saying one thing and doing another. Although I will 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:22.600 say with the Trump administration, they've thrown entirely overboard. Yeah, 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:26.440 the idea that we represent these values, I mean, they 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:29.600 think they're archaic. In my view, it's not that we 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:35.160 it's that we should do better actually in implementing those 0:15:35.240 --> 0:15:37.280 values as part of our foreign policy. 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:39.320 I mean we see double standards across the board. 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:43.480 I mean, supporting the net Yahoo government you know, throughout 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:46.920 the war and Gaza even as they violated not just 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:51.680 international law but American law, and the Biden administration and 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:54.480 the Trump administration as well, nothing about it. So that's 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:59.240 a double standard, and that undermines our strength around the world, 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:03.480 especially in the Global South. But now you have an 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:08.760 administration that just very explicitly has thrown the whole idea 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:12.960 that America stands for these principles overboard in favor of 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:16.120 you know, as Steve Miller said the other. 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:18.400 Day, we got the power, We'll do what we want. 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:23.560 Can you take us a little bit inside the conversations 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:26.680 that you were having with the Biden administration during what 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:29.200 we can get into, you know, I say it's a genocide. 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:31.360 Agree with the international consensus. We can get to whether 0:16:31.400 --> 0:16:32.080 you agree. 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:32.320 With that or not. 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:36.480 But during the genocide and Gaza which is ongoing, what 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:39.440 were your conversations like with the Biden administration, you know, 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:42.400 when you were bringing to them information about the way 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:44.960 that aid was being blocked, for example, after having been 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:48.680 on the ground, how did they square that circle? How 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:53.320 did they continue to hold this aspirational view that America 0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:54.840 is a force for good in the world at the 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:57.400 same time that we're shipping the bombs that are you know, 0:16:57.480 --> 0:16:59.560 part of these horrific atrocities. 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:01.440 Well, you're right, that's. 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:04.960 An example of a clear double standard and contradiction. And 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:07.600 you know, I reached out to them pretty early on 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:11.720 in the Gaza where they abide administration to point out that, 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:16.120 you know, the government of Israel was restricting humanitarian assistance, 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:20.240 that we were witnessing and discriminate bombing, and that there 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:23.480 were violations ongoing violations not just of international law but 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:26.600 US law. Right, we have a law in the books 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:30.080 with respect to provision of humanitarian aid that if a 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:34.080 country is you know, restricting humanitarian aid in a place 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:38.520 where they're also using our weapons, that we cut off 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:44.520 support of our weapon transfers. And they just tried, they 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:47.400 bobbed and weaved, and in the end of the day, 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:50.159 I really think they did great damage to our credibility 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:50.760 around the world. 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:51.879 Let alone, you know, the. 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:57.280 Number of people have been killed in Gaza. We're witnessing 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:00.800 this right now, not only in Gaza, in the West Bank. 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:03.640 You know, I call what's happening in the West Bank 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:08.679 slow motion ethnic cleansing. I mean, every day you're hearing 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:13.560 more and more about violence, settlers taking more land belonging 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:16.880 to Palestin Indians and essentially with impunity, and they're they're. 0:18:16.680 --> 0:18:17.640 Backed up by. 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:22.480 The IDF, because they're backed up by people like Ben 0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:25.679 Giver and Smotrich, these very right wing extremists, and by 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:30.480 Netan Yahoo. So this is a moment where, you know, 0:18:30.560 --> 0:18:33.600 the United States, the idea that we're standing up for 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:37.119 principles has been thrown overboard. I mean, unfortunately it was 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:40.040 done over a period of time, but now the Trump 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:43.600 administration has made it explicit. I believe, if asking, I 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:46.040 believe the United States actually does need to be consistent. 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:50.040 We're never perfect, but these are really important parts of 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:52.200 who we are as a country. It's part of the 0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:55.600 American identity. I don't think it's entirely a myth. I 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:58.399 think we we do stand for those things. Ronald Reagan 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:01.600 talked about the shiny City on the Hill, and Republicans 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:04.359 have now thrown that whole idea overboard. 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:07.399 So let me ask you. You have the International Association 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:10.120 of Genocide Scholars who say it's a genocide. They join 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:13.520 Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch. There are various Israeli human 0:19:13.600 --> 0:19:16.679 rights organizations like Budslom who agree with that. Do you 0:19:16.800 --> 0:19:19.520 accept the international consensus that this is a genocide? 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:23.120 So I think the overwhelming evidence points to the fact 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:27.600 that this is a genocide. You've seen scholars, including many 0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:34.160 scholars of the Holocaust, your scholars at Hebrew University, Brown University, 0:19:34.280 --> 0:19:34.879 and others. 0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:37.639 I've not made an independent legal conclusion. 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:42.320 I've made it very explicit that this is ethnic cleansing. 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:46.920 But regardless of what you call it, it is. 0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:48.879 You don't have to worry about a huge I have 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:51.320 one one SoundBite we're going to play for you, as though. 0:19:51.240 --> 0:20:00.679 Okay, it's a huge Watching what's happening is just it 0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:04.000 seems to me anybody with the conscience cannot stand by 0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:09.120 and watch what's happening without wanting to do something. 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:11.879 And how much do you think that the barbarism that 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:16.199 we've all watched play out in Gaza has allowed this 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:19.239 moment to emerge where we really do just you know, 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:22.399 the Trump administration feels fine just saying hey, we're going 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:25.119 to take over Gaza, right and continue in that direction. 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:27.359 We're going to take over Venezuela because we want their oil. 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:29.480 We're going to take over Greenland because we want you know, 0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:31.240 whatever they have to offer, and we're going to do 0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:34.320 this wherever we feel like doing it. So they truly 0:20:34.400 --> 0:20:37.760 have actualized this like might makes right barbarism, not to 0:20:37.800 --> 0:20:39.719 mention the barbarism that we're all seeing in the streets 0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:42.520 with these you know, ice thugs and CBP and other 0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:45.919 mass goons that are in American streets. How much do 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:49.560 you think that Gaza contributed to the unleashing of that 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:54.200 level of sort of accepted law of the jungle barbarism. 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:56.960 Well, I think it contributed to it. I think you. 0:20:57.359 --> 0:21:01.600 I think that Trump anddministration may well have jumped to 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:05.600 where they are right now no matter what. But clearly 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:09.120 Gaz is an example of where the United States did 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:12.199 not stand up for our values, for our own laws, 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:15.680 did not implement our own laws, and I do think 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:22.200 that contributes to a complete erosion of international standards. You're 0:21:22.240 --> 0:21:26.280 also seeing that combined with an attack on multilateral organizations 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:32.879 and on the UN, and the Biden administration vetoed. I 0:21:32.960 --> 0:21:35.960 can't I lost count how many resolutions they vetoed when 0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:40.560 it came to the situation in Gaza. So I do 0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:42.639 think you have a pattern there. I think it's going 0:21:42.680 --> 0:21:47.080 to be the challenge for the next president will be 0:21:47.200 --> 0:21:53.399 to try to restore some credibility as to what we 0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:56.879 stand for. But you're right, I mean to bring this 0:21:57.040 --> 0:22:00.960 home and watch what we're seeing on our own streets. 0:22:01.600 --> 0:22:03.840 You know, the reason I went down to El Salvador 0:22:03.920 --> 0:22:06.480 to try to, you know, find out whether Kilmar or 0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:10.199