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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, Saga and Crystal here.

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Speaker 2: Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election,

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Speaker 1: We need your help to build the future of independent

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Speaker 1: dot com.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to our recurring segment Get to Know a Senator.

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Speaker 3: The previous guests have been JdE Vance, Ted Cruz, Alyssa Slotkin,

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Speaker 3: Jeff Markley, who else.

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Speaker 2: We let's see see Bernie. We've had Bernie.

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Speaker 4: Oh, we had Bernie.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, So if your boss hasn't been on there yet,

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Speaker 3: reach on out to us. But today we're talking to

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Speaker 3: Senator Chris van holland Senator Van Allen.

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Speaker 4: Thank you so much for joining us here.

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Speaker 3: I really appreciate it's great to be with both of you.

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Speaker 3: One thing and this was kind of the bait to

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Speaker 3: get you into the studio that I wanted to talk

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Speaker 3: to you about was and I don't know if you

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Speaker 3: remember this, many many years ago I mentioned to you

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Speaker 3: that before the Iraq War, I had been among twenty

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Speaker 3: thirty people at a talk you gave at the University

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Speaker 3: of Maryland where you laid out in incredibly prescient detail

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Speaker 3: like why we should not invade Iraq and what would

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Speaker 3: happen if we did. Unfortunately, as Penties know, as we

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Speaker 3: did and those things happened. With the helpier staff, we

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Speaker 3: actually found evidence that this happened. If we can put up

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Speaker 3: this element on the screen. This is from the Diamondback,

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Speaker 3: which is the student newspaper for the University of Maryland.

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Speaker 3: So Monday, March third, twenty two thousand and three, this

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Speaker 3: is an advertisement for a talk that Congress and Chris

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Speaker 3: van Holland would be giving from twelve to one thirty pm.

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Speaker 3: You had just been elected November of two thousand and two,

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Speaker 3: so you're sworn in in January of two thousand and three,

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Speaker 3: and the war starts within within two months. So just

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Speaker 3: briefly lay out for us, like how did you see

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Speaker 3: what others didn't and what did you think was going

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Speaker 3: to happen?

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Speaker 4: And well, thanks for bringing that up.

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Speaker 6: And I actually remember that speech on the House floor

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Speaker 6: because it's one of the earlier ones.

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Speaker 4: I'd just been elected.

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Speaker 3: Well and you gave a speech on the House floor

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Speaker 3: like a week later. Yeah exactly, yeah exactly. And look,

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Speaker 3: this sort of brings us to the moment where in

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Speaker 3: now with respect to many challenges.

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Speaker 6: But when it came to Iraq, I mean, we all

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Speaker 6: recognized that Saddam Hussein was a bad dictator. I would

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Speaker 6: have liked to see him go. But the question was

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Speaker 6: how do you most successfully do that? And the Bush

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Speaker 6: administration's answer was you invade Iraq. And the problem is

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Speaker 6: when you go in and break stuff, you really need

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Speaker 6: to know what's going to happen next. It's easy to

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Speaker 6: go in and break stuff. It's building stuff back that's

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Speaker 6: really hard. And nation building is something that is I

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Speaker 6: think we've learned the hard way that we should not

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Speaker 6: be engaged in.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, look, so that was opening.

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Speaker 6: I called it Pandora's box, right, because what we did

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Speaker 6: was when we went into Iraq, we unleashed all these forces, right,

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Speaker 6: the different sectarian forces within Iraq and then we tried

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Speaker 6: to put a cap on them, and that didn't work,

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Speaker 6: and the result was American forces on the ground for

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Speaker 6: a long time, thousands of Americans killed, thousands and thousands

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Speaker 6: of Iraqis killed, and the end result was actually to

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Speaker 6: strengthen Iran right by getting rid of remember saying we

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Speaker 6: strengthened Iran because they had been mortal enemies. I mean,

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Speaker 6: they'd fought a war against one another. So the biggest

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Speaker 6: beneficiary from the US going into Iraq was Iraq.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I when I expressed a lot of

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Speaker 2: admiration for you and the courage that you've had on Gaza,

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Speaker 2: you know, I know that was very difficult, especially under

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Speaker 2: the Biden administration, going down to a Olsavador with kilmar

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Speaker 2: bergo Garcia at a time when there were other democrats ors.

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Speaker 4: Oh, we shouldn't talk about this. This isn't a good

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Speaker 4: issue for US.

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Speaker 2: I'm curious how you sort of arrived at your worldview.

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Speaker 2: I know you're born in Pakistan and your parents I

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Speaker 2: think when was a state department one with Cia. You know,

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Speaker 2: what has that journey been like so that you came

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Speaker 2: to that place where you were able to see what

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Speaker 2: many weren't on Irock and have continued to be able

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Speaker 2: to see some things that people are either not willing

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Speaker 2: to see or unable to see.

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Speaker 4: So you're right.

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Speaker 6: I grew up in a foreign service family career. My

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Speaker 6: father was a career diplomat. He went into the Navy

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Speaker 6: and then into the Foreign service. He married my mom,

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Speaker 6: who was at the forerunner to the CIA. Okay, at

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Speaker 6: the time, she was a Russian language expert. She was

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Speaker 6: the daughter of an English teacher, but she became a

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Speaker 6: Russian language expert. So look growing up overseas and it's

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Speaker 6: kind of like a military family.

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Speaker 4: You go overseas, you come back. But it does get

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Speaker 4: you thinking about what does America stand for?

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Speaker 6: And I was proud to represent or be part of

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Speaker 6: a family that represented the United States overseas. It also

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Speaker 6: causes you to hold up a mirror and say, are

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Speaker 6: we as good at home as we say we are?

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Speaker 6: And in terms of my worldview, I believe in the

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Speaker 6: power of America's example in addition to the power of

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Speaker 6: our military. And I think it's really important that we recognize,

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Speaker 6: especially at a moment like we're in right now, that

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Speaker 6: that has really benefited us over time and we're throwing

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Speaker 6: away the power of our example standing up for principles overseas.

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Speaker 6: But it also you know, I remember very clearly in

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Speaker 6: Sri Lanka because my father was posted in Sri Lanka

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Speaker 6: going to a village and in the hut that belonged

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Speaker 6: to the head of the village, there was a photograph

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Speaker 6: on the wall and it's kind of hard to see

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Speaker 6: was dim light.

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Speaker 4: It was a photograph of John F. Kennedy.

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Speaker 6: Why was that there because the Peace Corps had been

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Speaker 6: to that village and help with their water and sanitation.

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Speaker 6: So I've always believed that the United States can play

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Speaker 6: a very important role around the world through the power

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Speaker 6: of its example and not the overly reliant on the

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Speaker 6: power of our military.

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Speaker 3: Now you would come to your knowledge of the sectarian

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Speaker 3: situation in Iraq in a curious wave in the you

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Speaker 3: get this story a little bit for our audience. So

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Speaker 3: in the early nineties, you and Peter Gallbraith, who was

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Speaker 3: actually a brother of a friend of mine, James Gallbrath,

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Speaker 3: then happened to be the son of John Kenneth Gallbright,

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Speaker 3: the famous twentieth century economists. You guys are hill staffers

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Speaker 3: and do a very unhill staffer thing, which is sneak

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Speaker 3: into northern Iraq, the Kurdish region. Yeah, grab a whole

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Speaker 3: bunch of documents and interviews with people there, and prove

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Speaker 3: that Sodam Hussein had used chemical weapons that presumably we

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Speaker 3: had sold him on the Kurdish people, Like how did

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Speaker 3: you get in? How does the boss sign off on that?

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Speaker 3: And what what did you like? How did that shape

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Speaker 3: your your politics? Knowing that our ally had done this

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Speaker 3: with our I don't know, not with our backing, because

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Speaker 3: but we kind of encouraged the Kurds to rise up

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Speaker 3: and then we let him gas them with our chemical weapons.

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Speaker 6: Like yeah, so you've yeah, I'm glad you brought this up.

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Speaker 4: You're right. I was a staff member on the Senate

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Speaker 4: Foreign Relations.

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Speaker 6: Committee in the nineteen nineties. Actually, I'm sorry, in the

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Speaker 6: nineteen eighties. This is late nineteen nineteen eighty eightish, and

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Speaker 6: Saddam Hussein had unleashed his chemical weapons on the Kurds

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Speaker 6: in the northern part of Iraq, and so, yes, Peter

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Speaker 6: Gabraith and I traveled to the Turkish Iraq border.

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Speaker 4: We crossed into Iraq.

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Speaker 6: Most of the interviews we did were with the Kurdish

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Speaker 6: refugees who had fled into Turkey, and there were just

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Speaker 6: these massive camps, and we actually camped out on the border.

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Speaker 6: How we got permission to do it, I don't know,

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Speaker 6: But we then interviewed a lot of the members folks

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Speaker 6: in these camps who gave us sort of first hand

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Speaker 6: accounts of Saddam Hussein's use of chemical weapons because a

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Speaker 6: lot of people were denying it. And I remember to

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Speaker 6: this day to your point on who provided the precursor chemicals.

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Speaker 6: It wasn't necessarily sold the chemical weapons with the material

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Speaker 6: that was used.

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Speaker 4: I remember American chemical companies.

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Speaker 6: Lobbying against the legislation we proposed when we got back,

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Speaker 6: because we proposed full sanctions on Saddam Hussein economic sanctions

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Speaker 6: at the time, and we were able to ultimately get

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Speaker 6: that out of the Senate that died in the House.

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Speaker 6: But there's no doubt that the United States had sided

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Speaker 6: with Saddam Hussein during that Iran Iraq war.

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Speaker 4: And so yes, the hypocrisy.

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Speaker 6: Of on the one hand, providing support to Saddam Hussein

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Speaker 6: and then turning around and trying to condemn his use,

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Speaker 6: which was right to condemn, is something that always stood

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Speaker 6: out to me.

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Speaker 2: I love to get your sort of before we zoom

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Speaker 2: in more specifically to the immediate moment. I love to

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Speaker 2: get your sense of how we ended up here, I

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Speaker 2: was saying earlier in the show, like at least then

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Speaker 2: Bush neocons felt the need to make some public case

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Speaker 2: and like gin up some fake story about weapons of

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Speaker 2: mass destruction. Now we're so downgraded in the war propaganda

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Speaker 2: that we get machine guns and you know, them just

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Speaker 2: out and out saying no, it's for the oil. Like

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Speaker 2: we're just we want the oil. We're going to run

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Speaker 2: the place. It's ours complete colonial project. But you know,

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Speaker 2: people are also right in pointing out that, you know,

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Speaker 2: we did do something similar in Panama, it had more

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Speaker 2: sort of like moralism and justification wrapped around it. So

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Speaker 2: do you see those past interventions over years sort of

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Speaker 2: leading us to this place now where we just out

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Speaker 2: and out are like global thugs that if you have

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Speaker 2: something we want, we're just going to come in and

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Speaker 2: take it.

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Speaker 6: So I think that when you're talking about going into Iraq,

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Speaker 6: that was heavily pushed by the neocons, who stated public

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Speaker 6: purpose anyway was to bring democracy to places in the

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Speaker 6: Middle East, including Iraq.

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Speaker 4: At the barrel of a gun.

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Speaker 6: And if we've learned any lesson it should be that

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Speaker 6: you cannot by force just transform in a whole society.

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Speaker 6: In the case of Venezuela, it is all about the oil.

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Speaker 6: I mean I came out very early and said, you know,

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Speaker 6: this is all about the oil. And then Donald Trump

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Speaker 6: gets up the next day and says, it's all.

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Speaker 4: About the oil.

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Speaker 6: And of course with this administration, the Trump administration, more

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Speaker 6: than in any other earlier conflict, it's all about making

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Speaker 6: money for Trump's billionaire.

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Speaker 4: Friends, like you know, and for himself and himself and

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Speaker 4: his family.

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Speaker 6: I mean, if you look at what's happening across the

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Speaker 6: Middle East and the Gulf States, I mean the corruption

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Speaker 6: is just so gross. I mean, everything everything they touch,

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Speaker 6: they're trying to transform into dollars for Trump and his.

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Speaker 4: Family and his billionaire buddies.

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Speaker 6: I mean, if you look at Venezuela, it's not necessarily

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Speaker 6: so much the oil companies, although in the long run

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Speaker 6: they they may benefit. But they're people like Paul Singer,

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Speaker 6: who is this huge Trump donor who bought Citgo out

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Speaker 6: of bankruptcy in November, and others like that who are

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Speaker 6: huge beneficiaries of this and had sort of been you know,

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Speaker 6: told about it.

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Speaker 4: I mean, they people, you know, they knew that this

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Speaker 4: might happen.

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Speaker 6: So I will say that this administration, the corruption piece.

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Speaker 4: Is just prevalent throughout.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'm curious, Yeah, how you view American power

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Speaker 3: abroad given that these mask off moments that we've had,

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Speaker 3: whether it's the Iraq War, whether it's going into Venezuela.

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Speaker 3: And I'll put the question to you in terms of

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Speaker 3: the country you do understand quite well, haven't been born

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Speaker 3: there Pakistan. And in twenty twenty two, when the Russia

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Speaker 3: Ukraine War breaks out, the Prime Minister at the time,

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Speaker 3: in Ron Khan says that he's going to remain neutral

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Speaker 3: in this war. US wanted Pakistan producing shells for Ukraine.

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Speaker 3: US wanted Russia to be isolated. The State Department told

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Speaker 3: him that they found that to be offensive and they

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Speaker 3: called it a posture of aggressive neutrality, which is kind

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Speaker 3: of a bizarre term to begin with, and told the

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Speaker 3: ambassador that if a vote of no confidence was held

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Speaker 3: and Immoran Khan was removed from power, relations between the

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Speaker 3: United States would be better and quote all all would

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Speaker 3: be forgiven was the phrase that this this one diplomatic

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Speaker 3: I think you think, you know, Don Low would used

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Speaker 3: Since then the military has basically taken over a dictatorial

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Speaker 3: control in Pakistan, and the and the US through Biden

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Speaker 3: and then through Trump completely behind them, like no pretense

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Speaker 3: of you know, support for Pakistani democracy, So that that's

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Speaker 3: more of a mask on American power moment. So is

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Speaker 3: is that like, is that who we are globally? Like,

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Speaker 3: at what point do we say that the United States

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Speaker 3: is this is this is just what we do. Sometimes

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Speaker 3: we do it politely behind the scenes. Sometimes we do

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Speaker 3: it with with guns. Sometimes we do it with a

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Speaker 3: delta force, sometimes we do it with an occupation force.

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Speaker 3: How and how have you kind of confronted that as

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Speaker 3: somebody who has kind of grown up in that in

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Speaker 3: that in that where there's this belief among the Foreign

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Speaker 3: Service that we are with the Peace Corps, were living

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Speaker 3: up to these values around the world, Like are.

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Speaker 6: We so well, we're certainly not at this particular moment,

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Speaker 6: and we've never been perfect by any means, But I

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Speaker 6: do believe that if you talk to Foreign Service officers

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Speaker 6: and others, you know, representing the United States around the world,

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Speaker 6: supporting the principles of human rights, rule of law, freedom

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Speaker 6: and democracy is an important part of what we stand for,

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Speaker 6: and I would argue it's a very important part of

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Speaker 6: why the United States does have influence.

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Speaker 4: Now. I know you did a lot of reporting on Pakistan.

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Speaker 4: You're absolutely right.

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Speaker 6: If you look at Pakistan today, it's hard to call

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Speaker 6: it a democracy. You know, they have the elements of

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Speaker 6: the democracy, but in terms of how it's functioning, so

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Speaker 6: much of the control right now, as you know, as

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Speaker 6: in the Army chief of Staff and you know, I've

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Speaker 6: written to the Pakistani ambassador here. He didn't love my

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Speaker 6: letter pointing out that, you know, we need free and

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Speaker 6: fair elections in Pakistan. So there's another example where we

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Speaker 6: are saying one thing and doing another. Although I will

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Speaker 6: say with the Trump administration, they've thrown entirely overboard. Yeah,

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Speaker 6: the idea that we represent these values, I mean, they

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Speaker 6: think they're archaic. In my view, it's not that we

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Speaker 6: it's that we should do better actually in implementing those

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Speaker 6: values as part of our foreign policy.

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Speaker 4: I mean we see double standards across the board.

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Speaker 6: I mean, supporting the net Yahoo government you know, throughout

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Speaker 6: the war and Gaza even as they violated not just

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Speaker 6: international law but American law, and the Biden administration and

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Speaker 6: the Trump administration as well, nothing about it. So that's

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Speaker 6: a double standard, and that undermines our strength around the world,

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Speaker 6: especially in the Global South. But now you have an

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Speaker 6: administration that just very explicitly has thrown the whole idea

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Speaker 6: that America stands for these principles overboard in favor of

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Speaker 6: you know, as Steve Miller said the other.

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Speaker 4: Day, we got the power, We'll do what we want.

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Speaker 2: Can you take us a little bit inside the conversations

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Speaker 2: that you were having with the Biden administration during what

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Speaker 2: we can get into, you know, I say it's a genocide.

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Speaker 2: Agree with the international consensus. We can get to whether

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Speaker 2: you agree.

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Speaker 4: With that or not.

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Speaker 2: But during the genocide and Gaza which is ongoing, what

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Speaker 2: were your conversations like with the Biden administration, you know,

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Speaker 2: when you were bringing to them information about the way

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Speaker 2: that aid was being blocked, for example, after having been

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Speaker 2: on the ground, how did they square that circle? How

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Speaker 2: did they continue to hold this aspirational view that America

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Speaker 2: is a force for good in the world at the

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Speaker 2: same time that we're shipping the bombs that are you know,

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Speaker 2: part of these horrific atrocities.

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Speaker 4: Well, you're right, that's.

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Speaker 6: An example of a clear double standard and contradiction. And

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Speaker 6: you know, I reached out to them pretty early on

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Speaker 6: in the Gaza where they abide administration to point out that,

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Speaker 6: you know, the government of Israel was restricting humanitarian assistance,

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Speaker 6: that we were witnessing and discriminate bombing, and that there

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Speaker 6: were violations ongoing violations not just of international law but

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Speaker 6: US law. Right, we have a law in the books

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Speaker 6: with respect to provision of humanitarian aid that if a

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Speaker 6: country is you know, restricting humanitarian aid in a place

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Speaker 6: where they're also using our weapons, that we cut off

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Speaker 6: support of our weapon transfers. And they just tried, they

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Speaker 6: bobbed and weaved, and in the end of the day,

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Speaker 6: I really think they did great damage to our credibility

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Speaker 6: around the world.

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Speaker 4: Let alone, you know, the.

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Speaker 6: Number of people have been killed in Gaza. We're witnessing

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Speaker 6: this right now, not only in Gaza, in the West Bank.

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Speaker 6: You know, I call what's happening in the West Bank

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Speaker 6: slow motion ethnic cleansing. I mean, every day you're hearing

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Speaker 6: more and more about violence, settlers taking more land belonging

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Speaker 6: to Palestin Indians and essentially with impunity, and they're they're.

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Speaker 4: Backed up by.

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Speaker 6: The IDF, because they're backed up by people like Ben

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Speaker 6: Giver and Smotrich, these very right wing extremists, and by

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Speaker 6: Netan Yahoo. So this is a moment where, you know,

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Speaker 6: the United States, the idea that we're standing up for

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Speaker 6: principles has been thrown overboard. I mean, unfortunately it was

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Speaker 6: done over a period of time, but now the Trump

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Speaker 6: administration has made it explicit. I believe, if asking, I

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Speaker 6: believe the United States actually does need to be consistent.

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Speaker 6: We're never perfect, but these are really important parts of

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Speaker 6: who we are as a country. It's part of the

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Speaker 6: American identity. I don't think it's entirely a myth. I

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Speaker 6: think we we do stand for those things. Ronald Reagan

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Speaker 6: talked about the shiny City on the Hill, and Republicans

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Speaker 6: have now thrown that whole idea overboard.

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Speaker 2: So let me ask you. You have the International Association

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Speaker 2: of Genocide Scholars who say it's a genocide. They join

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Speaker 2: Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch. There are various Israeli human

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Speaker 2: rights organizations like Budslom who agree with that. Do you

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Speaker 2: accept the international consensus that this is a genocide?

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Speaker 6: So I think the overwhelming evidence points to the fact

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Speaker 6: that this is a genocide. You've seen scholars, including many

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Speaker 6: scholars of the Holocaust, your scholars at Hebrew University, Brown University,

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Speaker 6: and others.

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Speaker 4: I've not made an independent legal conclusion.

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Speaker 6: I've made it very explicit that this is ethnic cleansing.

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Speaker 6: But regardless of what you call it, it is.

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Speaker 2: You don't have to worry about a huge I have

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Speaker 2: one one SoundBite we're going to play for you, as though.

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Speaker 6: Okay, it's a huge Watching what's happening is just it

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Speaker 6: seems to me anybody with the conscience cannot stand by

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Speaker 6: and watch what's happening without wanting to do something.

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Speaker 2: And how much do you think that the barbarism that

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Speaker 2: we've all watched play out in Gaza has allowed this

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Speaker 2: moment to emerge where we really do just you know,

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Speaker 2: the Trump administration feels fine just saying hey, we're going

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Speaker 2: to take over Gaza, right and continue in that direction.

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Speaker 2: We're going to take over Venezuela because we want their oil.

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Speaker 2: We're going to take over Greenland because we want you know,

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Speaker 2: whatever they have to offer, and we're going to do

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Speaker 2: this wherever we feel like doing it. So they truly

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Speaker 2: have actualized this like might makes right barbarism, not to

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Speaker 2: mention the barbarism that we're all seeing in the streets

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Speaker 2: with these you know, ice thugs and CBP and other

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Speaker 2: mass goons that are in American streets. How much do

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Speaker 2: you think that Gaza contributed to the unleashing of that

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Speaker 2: level of sort of accepted law of the jungle barbarism.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think it contributed to it. I think you.

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Speaker 6: I think that Trump anddministration may well have jumped to

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Speaker 6: where they are right now no matter what. But clearly

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Speaker 6: Gaz is an example of where the United States did

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Speaker 6: not stand up for our values, for our own laws,

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Speaker 6: did not implement our own laws, and I do think

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Speaker 6: that contributes to a complete erosion of international standards. You're

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Speaker 6: also seeing that combined with an attack on multilateral organizations

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Speaker 6: and on the UN, and the Biden administration vetoed. I

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Speaker 6: can't I lost count how many resolutions they vetoed when

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Speaker 6: it came to the situation in Gaza. So I do

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Speaker 6: think you have a pattern there. I think it's going

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Speaker 6: to be the challenge for the next president will be

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Speaker 6: to try to restore some credibility as to what we

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Speaker 6: stand for. But you're right, I mean to bring this

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Speaker 6: home and watch what we're seeing on our own streets.

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Speaker 6: You know, the reason I went down to El Salvador

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Speaker 6: to try to, you know, find out whether Kilmar or

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Speaker 6: Brago Garcia was alive was because of the lawlessness of

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Speaker 6: the Trump administration here at home. So here at home

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Speaker 6: and overseas they're taking the same view, which is they've

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Speaker 6: got the power, they will do what they want.

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Speaker 4: That is a lawless administration.

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Speaker 3: And so just despite the criticism, the Biden administration did

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Speaker 3: not change course, which we all acknowledge is absolute catastrophe,

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Speaker 3: both for the US and for people in Gaza and

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Speaker 3: maybe in the long run for Israel too. We'll find

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Speaker 3: out what leverage do you think you had that you

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Speaker 3: didn't use? What could you have done that you didn't do,

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Speaker 3: Like if you had to do it over again, like

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Speaker 3: because the people trying to change Biden administration policy failed,

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Speaker 3: Like was there was there a path to changing that

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Speaker 3: policy or.

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Speaker 4: Was this just baked in? And did you talk to

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Speaker 4: Briden directly this? I did raise this with Biden directly.

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Speaker 6: I mean not so much near the end of his administration,

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Speaker 6: but even a couple on a couple occasions then I

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Speaker 6: mentioned it to him. For example, when we had the

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Speaker 6: collapse of the Key Bridge in Baltimore, he came to Baltimore,

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Speaker 6: we spoke about the bridge. We also mentioned we got

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Speaker 6: to do something to stop the killing in Gaza.

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Speaker 4: So you know, I tried to do everything I could.

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Speaker 6: The main thing we did was get the Biden administration

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Speaker 6: to adopt what became known as NSM twenty.

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Speaker 4: So I don't want to go into all the weeds there.

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Speaker 6: I proposed an amendment to the build and included funding

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Speaker 6: for Ukraine and Israel and other things that essentially would

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Speaker 6: have blocked funding to any country that was violating American law.

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Speaker 6: We didn't have the votes to pass it, but we

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Speaker 6: were successful at getting the Biden administration to adopt what

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Speaker 6: became known as NSM twenty.

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Speaker 4: It's a pretty long document.

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Speaker 6: It was fiercely negotiated, and it ultimately required them to

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Speaker 6: provide some reporting on a lot of these issues, right

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Speaker 6: in terms of the killing, in terms of the distribution

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Speaker 6: of humanitarian aid. Unfortunately, when the report came out, I

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Speaker 6: felt that it sort of whitewashed the situation. I said

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Speaker 6: so publicly, if you interestingly, if you look at the

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Speaker 6: amount of humanitarian aid going into Gaza. It did go

442
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:38,399
Speaker 6: up just before the report was issued. And you know,

443
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,400
Speaker 6: the administration did tell me that they used that as

444
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 6: leverage to improve the delivery of humanitarian assistance. The problem is,

445
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,640
Speaker 6: as soon as the report came out, right, they didn't

446
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 6: stick with it. I mean, the Biden administration didn't stick

447
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 6: with it. They did not use the levers of power

448
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 6: that they have.

449
00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 2: For a lot of rank and file Democrats, like ordinary odors,

450
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 2: a PAC funding and position on the Gassa genocide has

451
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 2: become a litmus test for any candidac they support, and

452
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 2: in particular candidate support in twenty twenty. First of all,

453
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 2: would you ever accept a PAC funding? And second of all,

454
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:13,680
Speaker 2: I'm curious, you know, do you have a litmus test

455
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:18,120
Speaker 2: for future candidates to represent the Democratic Party nationally?

456
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,720
Speaker 6: So no, I don't accept a PAC money. I don't

457
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 6: think anybody should accept a pack of money. You know,

458
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 6: I remember when I proposed my amendment, it was written

459
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 6: in a completely neutral way, in the sense that applied

460
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 6: to any country. We just said that when the United

461
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 6: States is providing military assistance to a country, they have

462
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 6: to comply with these basic standards. APAC came out against that.

463
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 6: You know, the issue with APAC, as we know, is

464
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:56,640
Speaker 6: they essentially adopt the position of the government of Israel,

465
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 6: and there are going to be times when the interests

466
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,439
Speaker 6: of the government of Israel in the United States obviously diverge.

467
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:07,920
Speaker 6: I don't think what Israel's been doing is in Israel's

468
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 6: own interests, but that, of course is for the people

469
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 6: of Israel to decide. But the short answer your question is,

470
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 6: I do not think that anybody should be taking a

471
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 6: peck money.

472
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 4: And I think that there does need to.

473
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,879
Speaker 6: Be accountability in the Democratic Party for whether people stood

474
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 6: up and challenged all the terrible things that were happening

475
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 6: in Gaza during that period of time.

476
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 3: And now does that mean, Senator Schumer, do you think

477
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,159
Speaker 3: that do you think there should be new leadership in

478
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,360
Speaker 3: future congresses in the Senate well.

479
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 6: As to future congresses. That's going to be obviously something

480
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 6: for the Democratic Caucus. But let me just say this

481
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 6: with respect to the presidential race in twenty twenty eight.

482
00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 6: You know, my view is it's going to be important

483
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 6: see whether the candidates are running for the highest office

484
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 6: in the land.

485
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 4: Where they stood on this question of conscience.

486
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that question of conscience obviously, you know,

487
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,399
Speaker 2: for me, one of the clearest dividing lines is around Gaza.

488
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 2: But I think, you know, also the way that people

489
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 2: have stood up or failed to stand up in this

490
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,119
Speaker 2: moment with the second Trump administration. You know, I mentioned

491
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 2: before and you mentioned going to see whether kil Mahar

492
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 2: Brego Garcia was alive or dad. You know, I think

493
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 2: the decisions that were made on the previous shutdown fight,

494
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 2: you know, everybody was sort of behind you guys, and

495
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 2: then you had tumor and a few breakaway Democrats decided,

496
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 2: I know, we're gonna We're going to cave without getting

497
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 2: anything in return. I know you're part of what's called

498
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 2: the quote unquote fight club, you and some other Democratic

499
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,879
Speaker 2: members of the Senate. So how do you see, like,

500
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 2: how have Democrats done in this moment and what should

501
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,920
Speaker 2: they have done? How should they have conducted themselves differently?

502
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 6: So I think a lot of Democrats were late to

503
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 6: recognize the danger posed by the Trump administration. I mean,

504
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 6: you know, people would sort of say, oh, maybe they're

505
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 6: not serious, this is just rhetoric. Even as the Trump

506
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 6: administration engaged in lawless activity at home and overseas, and immigration.

507
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 4: Was one of the earlier ones. Yeah. Yeah, because we

508
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 4: had this case of.

509
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,680
Speaker 6: Kilmarraborgo Garcia, right, he was snatched off the streets of Maryland.

510
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 6: He was sent to Seacott, this notorious gulag in El Salvador.

511
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,160
Speaker 6: And when I went down there, there were a lot

512
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 6: of voices in the Democratic Party that said, no, don't

513
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 6: do that, you know, don't don't focus it all.

514
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 4: I mean, they're Democrats above in this book record. Yeah,

515
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 4: but not just there, but also around the country.

516
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 6: And it was like, you know, we shouldn't be talking

517
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 6: about this because when it comes to immigration issues, the

518
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 6: Trump position is popular. We should always change the subject

519
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 6: to something else. I mean, here you have people being snatched.

520
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 6: Now that's changed. Now we have people who are responding

521
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 6: much more than they were before. But at that time,

522
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 6: it was really very much a finger in the wind

523
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 6: a kind of thing. And you know, despite the fact

524
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 6: that you had this gross violation of the constitution and

525
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,719
Speaker 6: things began to change back then. I mean, you know,

526
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 6: when we had the Kilmar Brego Garcia case, folks like

527
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 6: you know, Joe Rogan on his podcast, we're saying, you know,

528
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 6: I'm not into this just denying people their due process

529
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 6: rights in Constitution, and that's what this administration has been doing,

530
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 6: just taking away.

531
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 4: People's due process rights. So I do think it's changed.

532
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 6: But to answer your question, I think there were a

533
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,959
Speaker 6: lot of folks who are very slow to recognize the

534
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 6: real danger to our democracy, to our constitution, and to

535
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 6: our country.

536
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 2: I guess my question is has that actually changed. There's

537
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 2: a possibility of another shutdown fight, and you have some

538
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 2: including in this part, I will need your ear piece

539
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 2: and it to be in for Senator Chris Murphy indicating

540
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 2: that we should use this opportunity. Democrats should use this

541
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 2: opportunity to force changes at ICE in the wake of

542
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 2: what I would call a murder of Renee Good, you know,

543
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 2: being shot three times by this ICE agent as she's

544
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 2: there in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Let's go ahead and take a

545
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 2: listen to Senator Chris Murphy make the case.

546
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 7: You're proposing sweeping reforms to DHS, from requiring warrants for rests,

547
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 7: to banning masks during enforcement to limiting ICE's use of

548
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 7: firearms and civil operations. Do any Republicans support your plan?

549
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 7: Is it realistic that this could actually pass?

550
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 5: Senator Well Republicans need Democratic votes in order to pass

551
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 5: a budget for the Department of Homeland Security. And what

552
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 5: we're talking about I wouldn't necessarily categorize as sweeping, right,

553
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 5: we're simply talking about, you know, essentially going back to

554
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 5: the way that ICE was operating when they cared about legality,

555
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 5: right identification of officers. That's something that has been standard

556
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 5: practice in every law enforcement agency all across the country.

557
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 4: Is CBP who are supposed to be at the.

558
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 5: Border, protecting us at the border, operating in the interior

559
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 5: with no training on how to deal with complex urban environments.

560
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 4: That's brand new.

561
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 5: So we just need to get back to a Department

562
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 5: of Homeland Security that is prioritizing the law and prioritizing

563
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 5: keeping people safe. And yes, I think that it's reasonable

564
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 5: for Democrats speaking on behalf of the majority of the

565
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 5: American public who don't approve of what ICE is doing,

566
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 5: to say, if you want to fund the Department of

567
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 5: Homeland Security, I want to fund a Department of Homeland

568
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 5: Security that is operating in a safe and legal manner.

569
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 2: So is it appropriate do you support using this sort

570
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 2: of rare moment of leverage that Democrats have in terms

571
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 2: of government funding to force some changes at DHS and

572
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 2: with ICE.

573
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 6: Yes, I've been very clear, I will not vote for

574
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 6: one more penny getting rid of the pennies, one more

575
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 6: dollar for the Trump Ice operation, and I hope we

576
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 6: will use this moment for that purpose.

577
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 4: And this is why the Department of.

578
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 6: Homeland Securities appropriation bill in the Senate has been so

579
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 6: hung up. I mean, we've passed other bills appropriation bills

580
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 6: out of our committee, but some we've not. And this

581
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 6: one is one that I will not support advancing without

582
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 6: the kind of reforms that Chris Murphy's talking about.

583
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 3: And what's the end game then, because it seemed like

584
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 3: that that's where Democrats kind of fell down last time.

585
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 3: That all they kind of snatched defeat from the jaws

586
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 3: of victory in that shutdown because it felt like they

587
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 3: just kind of lost their nerve after the shutdown and

588
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 3: going on so long.

589
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 4: So how do you avoid that this time? So we

590
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 4: do have a different situation there.

591
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 6: We have already moved, for example, three appropriation bills like

592
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 6: for the Department of Agriculture and a couple others.

593
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 4: There may be other bills.

594
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 6: Where we were successful at putting up safeguards around the funding.

595
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 4: The Commerce Justice Science Bill is one of those.

596
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 6: Where we completely rejected the Trump cuts to science and

597
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 6: the National Science Foundation and NASA Goddard and things like that.

598
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 6: So we may have a situation where we pass appropriation

599
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 6: bills for certain agencies. Well, what I'm saying, I think

600
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 6: Senator Murphy is saying, is that when it comes to DHS,

601
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 6: we will not support any funding for DHS in lesson

602
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 6: until we see these reforms.

603
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 2: And do you know where Senator Schumer is on that.

604
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 6: I think he supports reforms at DHS. I can't speak

605
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 6: for him with respect to the actual strategy of not

606
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 6: supporting that bill at this particular moment.

607
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 3: There was a memo that circulated in the kind of

608
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 3: DC progressive world a month or two ago. I'm curious

609
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 3: if you saw it that made the case for Chris

610
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 3: van Holland for Senate Majority leader.

611
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:08,320
Speaker 4: Did you see that memo?

612
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 6: I heard about the memo. Actually, no, you know I

613
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 6: did see that memo. I know what you're talking about,

614
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:16,720
Speaker 6: all right, So what do you think of that memo?

615
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 3: And would you run if Democrats took the majority or

616
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 3: if they or even if they don't, would you run

617
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 3: for minority leaders, that's something you're open to.

618
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 4: So it's not something that has been top of mind

619
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 4: for me.

620
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 6: And ultimately, you know, this is a question of the

621
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 6: Democratic caucus. And if you go back, for example, to

622
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 6: your point on the shutdown strategy unraveling, yeah, you can

623
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,479
Speaker 6: see it's it's not just about one person. So look,

624
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 6: my goal right now is to fight like hell every

625
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 6: moment we've got against the Trump administration, to work to

626
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 6: win the midterm elections.

627
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 4: In the House and in the Senate.

628
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 6: And then I do believe I'm a strong believer in

629
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 6: the fact that we cannot just be the party of

630
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 6: know that we need to put forward a clear agenda

631
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:15,240
Speaker 6: for the future that makes a tells the American people

632
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,800
Speaker 6: we are not in the party of the status quo. Yeah,

633
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 6: and that is going to be my main focus.

634
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:23,720
Speaker 2: So you say it's a question for the Democratic caucus,

635
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:25,839
Speaker 2: is it also a question for the Democratic base though,

636
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:27,879
Speaker 2: you know, especially at this period in time when you're

637
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 2: between president, there's no clear leader of the Democratic Party.

638
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 2: So I think it's sort of an old fashioned way

639
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 2: of looking at you know, Hookeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer's Oh,

640
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 2: they just tend to the business of the House, or

641
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 2: they just tend to business of the Senate. The Democratic

642
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 2: base and the numbers bear this out, are very frustrated

643
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 2: with Jeffries and specifically with Chuck Schumer. They feel he

644
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 2: is failing at the job of standing up to Trump.

645
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:51,360
Speaker 2: And I think I agree, and I think you probably

646
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 2: agree that they have a pretty strong case that they

647
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:57,399
Speaker 2: could make there. So does their frustration matter at all

648
00:35:57,480 --> 00:35:59,799
Speaker 2: in that calculus as well at a time when they

649
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 2: feel like they're losing their country.

650
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 6: I yes, I mean their frustration definitely counts. It counts

651
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 6: in leadership races. It will certainly count going into two

652
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,879
Speaker 6: thousand and twenty eight when it'll be a referendum within

653
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 6: the Democratic Party on the direction that we want to

654
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 6: take going forward. I would say that at this point

655
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 6: in time, you know, and again, Senator Schumer, I think

656
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 6: is now better reflecting the views of more of the

657
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 6: Democrats across the country. That said, and you know, it

658
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 6: became public, so I can talk about it. As you know,

659
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 6: the first rule of fight club is.

660
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 4: You don't talk about fight club, but somebody talks about it.

661
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 6: So there is a group of us who've expressed frustration

662
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 6: not only about you know, the direction.

663
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 4: The clock has taken.

664
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 6: But also with respect to how the Democratic Senatorial Campaign

665
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 6: Committee has gotten involved in some of the Democratic primaries.

666
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,839
Speaker 6: That's really what what sort of triggered a lot of

667
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:11,799
Speaker 6: the frustration among this group. You know, I was, you know,

668
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 6: I was quite clear how frustrated I was that you

669
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 6: didn't have the leadership supporting mam Nani in New York

670
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 6: for mayor.

671
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 4: What did he What did he say about that?

672
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:23,399
Speaker 3: How do you how do you justify not how did

673
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,399
Speaker 3: he justify not supporting the Democratic nominee for mayor?

674
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 6: I can't remember what he has said publicly, but you know,

675
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 6: all I know is the result. And you know, here

676
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 6: you have a mayor who ran on the platform of

677
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 6: affordability that everybody says we should be focused on and

678
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 6: we should be focused on lowering the cost of living

679
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 6: for Americans so people, you know, living paycheck to paycheck

680
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 6: can actually get by, and we want to increase the

681
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,279
Speaker 6: size of their paychecks too. And so that was, you know,

682
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 6: that was an example where you know, if you want

683
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,439
Speaker 6: to have a big tent memorocratic party, and I do,

684
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 6: then you can't say you're not going to endorse you know,

685
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 6: the guy who is the Democratic nominee for mayor.

686
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 3: One of the grievances that this, according to the reporting

687
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 3: that the Fight Club brought to Senator Schumer, was recruiting

688
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:17,839
Speaker 3: Janet Mills when Graham Plattner was already in the race

689
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 3: and then clearly backing Haley Stevens even though they're they're

690
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 3: claimed they or not, whether there's a competitive primary there,

691
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 3: has the Fight Club thought about or talked about endorsing,

692
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 3: like as a group against the Democratic establishment's candidate, Like

693
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 3: where are you, Well, let's start with Maine, Like have

694
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 3: you spoken with Graham Plattner? Are you supporting him? And

695
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 3: should the Fight Club like if they're going to fight,

696
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 3: like they're gonna fight, So.

697
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,959
Speaker 6: Okay, let's let's start with Maine. I've talked to both

698
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 6: Janet Mills and Graham Plattner a.

699
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:52,280
Speaker 4: Couple of times.

700
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 6: My view is that the Democratic primary voters should be

701
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 6: the ones who you know, decide on that election. And

702
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:08,280
Speaker 6: you know, we got upset because that is an example

703
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 6: where the d SCC did weigh in very strongly on

704
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 6: behalf of one of the candidates in the primary, and

705
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:16,279
Speaker 6: it was our view and it remains my view that

706
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:20,240
Speaker 6: you know, that's a question for Democratic primary voters.

707
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 4: And the same was true about Michigan.

708
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 6: Right with respect to Haley Stevens, that they were weighing

709
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 6: in on behalf of her to the exclusion of the

710
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:36,880
Speaker 6: other candidates. So our basic message was, we need to you,

711
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 6: the d SCC, need to stay out of these races. Now,

712
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 6: we did make an exception in the case of Minnesota.

713
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 6: We together have endorsed Peggy Flanagan, who's the lieutenant gugnatorial

714
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:52,839
Speaker 6: candidate there, and that's because we also sense that the

715
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 6: d s CC was weighing in on behalf of in

716
00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 6: this case.

717
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 3: Right, So then okay, so if you're weighing in Minnesota,

718
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 3: what will it take to get you into Maine?

719
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 4: I don't know where where.

720
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 6: I think our main reaction in Maine was that the

721
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 6: DSCC went in. So we're look I continuing to look

722
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 6: at these races, and I don't know.

723
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:18,840
Speaker 4: I do think that we're stronger.

724
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 6: When we can take sort of collective action, and we

725
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 6: were able to get a consensus on that when it

726
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 6: came to the Minnesota Center race.

727
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 2: Center, I'm curious why you change your mind on medicare

728
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:31,440
Speaker 2: for us? And I was very happy to see. But

729
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 2: I'm just wondering if your views have evolved on where

730
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 2: we should be economically and what it's going to require

731
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 2: to you don't give working people a shot in this country.

732
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:41,400
Speaker 4: Yeah.

733
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:45,360
Speaker 6: So the short answer is my view has not changed

734
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 6: on that fundamental question. I mean, I've been very much

735
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:54,839
Speaker 6: supportive of getting eventually to medicare for all, but I

736
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 6: had taken the view earlier that you know, I was

737
00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 6: one of the people is for the public option when

738
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 6: it came to the Afordable Care Act, and then we

739
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 6: didn't get the public option even though the House had

740
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 6: been supportive of it back in the day. And you know,

741
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 6: at some point, with Republicans continuing to try to just attack, attack,

742
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 6: attack the Affordable Care Act from every angle, and just

743
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 6: looking at the healthcare system overall, the amount of money

744
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:25,719
Speaker 6: that we spend on overhead and administration and bureaucracy and

745
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 6: insurance companies, I just reached the conclusion that we didn't

746
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:33,279
Speaker 6: we should move now right's And so I supported the bill.

747
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:37,360
Speaker 4: I had supported the idea of getting the Medicare for all, yeah, always,

748
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 4: But what I said was this bill is the way

749
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 4: to do it over a four year period.

750
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:46,320
Speaker 6: This is Bernie Sanders' bill, and I've also long supported

751
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 6: adding to Medicare coverage, you know, dental vision and hearing,

752
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 6: and I think we should move forward on that now.

753
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:57,759
Speaker 6: But you know, I would say that looking at our

754
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 6: healthcare system, we spend, as you know, about eighteen percent

755
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 6: of our gross national product on healthcare, and we are

756
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,239
Speaker 6: definitely not getting our money's worth in terms.

757
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:09,840
Speaker 4: Of the public health.

758
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 6: And so my view is that we should move now,

759
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,280
Speaker 6: and I think that bill lays out the right roadmap

760
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 6: and not try to go through a public option for

761
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 6: the Affordable Care Act and an even more incremental approach.

762
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,359
Speaker 4: I think we should just pass the build and do it.

763
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 3: We talked about Senate leader, but you've also been talked

764
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 3: about as potential presidential candidate. I mean, first, would you

765
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 3: see any pushback from being born in Pakistan?

766
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 4: Is there any argument that, hey, they you can't do that?

767
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 3: Or do you get the John McCain exception there? You

768
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 3: know in the Senate they say everybody, all senators wake

769
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 3: up in the morning, look in the mirror and see

770
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 3: see a future president?

771
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 4: Do see that? Or when the where are you on

772
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 4: that question?

773
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 6: So my big focus right now, beyond the midterms is

774
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:00,759
Speaker 6: really coming up with what I think the Democrats should

775
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 6: stand for. It kind of goes to your point when

776
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 6: you asked about medicare, you also said, you know, how

777
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 6: about you know.

778
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 4: Working people around the country.

779
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:12,879
Speaker 6: And I've long believed that's the fundamental crisis that we're

780
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 6: facing in America, which is the inequality of wealth and

781
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 6: power in the country. So this is why I'm going

782
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 6: to continue to I've been proposing major tax proposals and

783
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 6: we'll be reintroducing another one soon, which essentially, you know,

784
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 6: addresses the problem we've got, which is we have a

785
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:37,320
Speaker 6: tax system that's rigged to favor people who make money

786
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 6: off of money as opposed to people who make money

787
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 6: off of hard work. I also support incentivizing employee ownership

788
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 6: of companies, and then I think we should make sure

789
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 6: that on the cost side, for example, that these huge,

790
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 6: these AI companies, the richest on the planet, you know,

791
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 6: aren't essentially free riding off of rate payers when it

792
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:03,240
Speaker 6: comes to the additional electricity that needs to be generated

793
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 6: in the costs.

794
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:04,399
Speaker 4: Of all of that.

795
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 6: So what I'm saying is that is my focus right now.

796
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 6: I don't know what the Democratic field will will look like.

797
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 4: Iowa, I am Carolina. I did get invited to go out.

798
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,439
Speaker 6: I was the Iowa Steak Fry, Poe County Steak Fry.

799
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 6: You know, we had a back and forth with another

800
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:25,879
Speaker 6: candidate about you know, yeah, anyway, I was. They asked

801
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 6: me to come out, especially after the Kilmar Brego Garcia situation,

802
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 6: and and I did give a speech out there laying

803
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 6: out what I think the Democratic Party needs to focus on.

804
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:38,319
Speaker 6: Beyond taking on Trump, which we need to do every

805
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 6: single day to protect our democracy, we do need to

806
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 6: you know, I think that we've been much too tied

807
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:52,319
Speaker 6: to special interests, yes, and corporate special interests. And so

808
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:56,319
Speaker 6: my my view is the best way to regain some

809
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:58,399
Speaker 6: of the confidence of the American people is to show

810
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:00,160
Speaker 6: that we we will.

811
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:01,319
Speaker 4: We want to break with the status quo.

812
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:04,280
Speaker 6: I mean, it just was my mind that Donald Trump

813
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,280
Speaker 6: was the guy who said he was going to change,

814
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 6: you know, Washington, and people thought that that might be

815
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:12,359
Speaker 6: changing in a good way.

816
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 4: They just wanted they want to change. Yeah.

817
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 6: Now I think you know, people are seeing i mean,

818
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 6: including on the immigration front, but the fact that Trump

819
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 6: is not focused on bringing out costs or anything like that.

820
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 6: They don't like what they see. But I'm going to

821
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,320
Speaker 6: I intend to be front center in this debate.

822
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:39,360
Speaker 2: How do you reign in these tech oligarchs? And you

823
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 2: mentioned the concern about electricity rates, that's one thing. They're

824
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,399
Speaker 2: also deep concerns about AI and taking jobs. There are

825
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:50,399
Speaker 2: existential concerns about AI and destroying human civilization, like how

826
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:54,040
Speaker 2: are you thinking about that constellation of issues and specifically

827
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 2: on the question of how you reign in You know,

828
00:45:55,920 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 2: these would be trillionaires who want to basically operate in

829
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:04,400
Speaker 2: a completely unregulated environment and be able to do whatever

830
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 2: they want, whenever they want.

831
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 4: So I agree with your analysis.

832
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 6: I think we're in a really difficult place because you

833
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 6: have the richest people on the planet and they're getting richer,

834
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 6: and with that comes a lot of power, and they're

835
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 6: using their power. I mean, we see this with Elon

836
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:24,320
Speaker 6: Musk obviously, you know Trump made him the head of DOGE.

837
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,280
Speaker 6: We also see this with the concentration of media power

838
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,280
Speaker 6: and traditional media, which is why I do encourage everybody

839
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:35,359
Speaker 6: to watch independent media channel.

840
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 4: Grey, appreciate, but like and subscribe. But I don't have

841
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:39,799
Speaker 4: I will. I will tell you I don't have an

842
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:42,280
Speaker 4: easy answer to your your question.

843
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 6: I've been longtime supporter of you know, significant campaign finance reform.

844
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:51,720
Speaker 6: You know, we obviously want to roll back Citizen United,

845
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,800
Speaker 6: but you know how hard that is because the Supreme

846
00:46:54,800 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 6: Court decision. I am the original author of the Disclosure

847
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 6: Act that we've got past the House of Representatives. When

848
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:04,799
Speaker 6: I was back in the House, it failed by one

849
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:10,799
Speaker 6: vote in the Senate on filibuster. So I believe in

850
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 6: campaign finance reform and we need to fight like that.

851
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 4: And whoever's you.

852
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:19,239
Speaker 6: Know, a Democratic candidate for president or even you know,

853
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:22,360
Speaker 6: Congress should be fighting for those things. But I'm open

854
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 6: to people's ideas on how you reign in the AI companies.

855
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 6: And we never were successful at getting a sort of

856
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:34,760
Speaker 6: a oversight when it came to the social media universe.

857
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 6: And they're obviously all sorts of important questions around First Amendment,

858
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 6: all those sort of things. But in terms of the

859
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 6: concentration of power in AI, you know, again, I have

860
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 6: a tax approach to that, but in terms of reigning

861
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:57,319
Speaker 6: them in, that is something that I believe we need

862
00:47:57,360 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 6: to do.

863
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 4: I agree with your analysis.

864
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:02,759
Speaker 6: I'm open to any ideas people have as the best

865
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:03,320
Speaker 6: approach to that.

866
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 3: You're colleague, Elizabeth Warren a fight club, another fight club member,

867
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 3: I believe, giving a speech today at the National Press

868
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 3: Club in which she's really taking aim at the abundance

869
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 3: argument and making the case generally and read the entire

870
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:22,760
Speaker 3: speech that abundance in some ways as a stalking horse

871
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 3: for old school deregulatory hands off, just let the oligarchs

872
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 3: and rule the roost and.

873
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 4: Things will happen.

874
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 3: And she's coming directly at that and saying no, like,

875
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 3: we actually need to get these people under control so

876
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:42,839
Speaker 3: that we can really unleash all of the American people,

877
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 3: not just the oligarchs. Where are you on this abundance

878
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 3: conversation within the Democratic Party?

879
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:53,399
Speaker 6: So I really don't think it's either or on abundance

880
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 6: versus you know, going after.

881
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 3: But Donnie stole the word, mom, Donnie stole the word.

882
00:48:58,160 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 3: He called himself he's an abundance.

883
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 4: Some of us first executive.

884
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:05,680
Speaker 6: Look, I mean, I think we can acknowledge that, you know,

885
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 6: we need to build more housing stock, we need more

886
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 6: affordable housing, and that there are many cases where especially

887
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:14,160
Speaker 6: local regulations or an impediment to that. What can the

888
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 6: federal government do to incentivize changes? I mean, there are

889
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 6: limited levers at the federal level. It is also true,

890
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:25,360
Speaker 6: obviously that some of these transportation projects take way too long,

891
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:26,319
Speaker 6: So I.

892
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 4: Think there is there's merit to that argument.

893
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 6: That doesn't mean that we should not also be focused on,

894
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 6: you know, making sure that we break up monopolies, because

895
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 6: you know, monopolies obviously undermine the whole idea of you know,

896
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 6: for those people who believe in free markets, you should

897
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:52,960
Speaker 6: be anti monopoly obviously, So I think it's not I

898
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:54,920
Speaker 6: really don't think it's either or when it comes to

899
00:49:55,040 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 6: abundance versus the sort of anti monopoly, anti trust approach.

900
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 2: So you talk some about accountability electoral accountability for Democrats

901
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:07,280
Speaker 2: who close their eyes to human rights abuses in Gaza

902
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:09,759
Speaker 2: and failed to stand up to President Trump. Do you

903
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:12,759
Speaker 2: think there should be criminal accountability for members of this

904
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 2: administration under a future you know, if you or someone

905
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:18,760
Speaker 2: else were to run for president, Should charges be brought

906
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 2: against people who committed crimes in the content context of

907
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:22,720
Speaker 2: this regime.

908
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 6: I think people need to be held accountable under the law,

909
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 6: and so to the extent that there are people engaged

910
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 6: in criminal violations of the law, then they need to

911
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:34,319
Speaker 6: be held accountable.

912
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:37,920
Speaker 2: Does part of that accountability we talked earlier about renee

913
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:41,279
Speaker 2: Good and about Kilmara Brego Garcia, and ICE is sort

914
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:44,600
Speaker 2: of the tip of the sphere of this lawless administration.

915
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:48,240
Speaker 2: Do you support abolishing ice? There's some sixty nine percent

916
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:50,800
Speaker 2: of the Democratic base that has come to that position

917
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 2: at this point.

918
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:58,280
Speaker 6: Well, let's put it this way. I support abolishing Trump's ICE.

919
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:01,880
Speaker 6: In other words, this kind of operation that's going on

920
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:03,880
Speaker 6: right now needs to come to an end, and it

921
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:05,880
Speaker 6: needs to come to an end now.

922
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 4: So I support raining in ICE.

923
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 6: I think ICE has an appropriate function when it is,

924
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 6: when it is conducted and operated in you know, in

925
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 6: the way that it was I think originally in visioned.

926
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:24,759
Speaker 6: But I think Trump is sort of put ice on steroids.

927
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 6: And this is why, as we discussed earlier, I'm in

928
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:31,320
Speaker 6: favor of you making sure we don't provide any funding

929
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 6: for Trump's ongoing ICE operations.

930
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 3: Let me let me push a little bit on that,

931
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:37,279
Speaker 3: because this is not like an ancient it's not a

932
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:40,920
Speaker 3: Jeffersonian agency like you were literally in Congress when this

933
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 3: was created, right, I think it was two thousand and three,

934
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:49,640
Speaker 3: Like when they reorganized Homeland Security in twenty nineteen, we

935
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:50,920
Speaker 3: covered and I think pro public.

936
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:51,439
Speaker 4: It did too.

937
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:55,359
Speaker 3: When AOC and I think it was Rashida to leaving

938
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:59,760
Speaker 3: Alanomar went down to the border, there was a report,

939
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 3: multiple reports about this ICE Facebook group that had hundreds,

940
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:09,960
Speaker 3: if not thousands of ICE agents and commanders like this

941
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:16,200
Speaker 3: is top to bottom, where they were threatening violence against

942
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 3: AOC and these other members of Congress who were coming

943
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 3: to the border. Their job was they were supposed to

944
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 3: protect these members of Congress. There were also all of

945
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 3: this over the top, like sexual harassment and sexualization of

946
00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:29,759
Speaker 3: these members going on.

947
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 4: You read through these and this is basically public.

948
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:35,359
Speaker 3: It was a private group, but it's you know, when

949
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:39,440
Speaker 3: you're in the thousands, it's basically public on Facebook. You

950
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:42,759
Speaker 3: read through those and you get a window into a

951
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 3: rogue agency, which is how I saw it at the time.

952
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:50,160
Speaker 3: So this is Trump's ICE, but it's twenty nineteen, like

953
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 3: we're now many years deeper into Trump's ICE. It already

954
00:52:54,719 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 3: to me felt rogue, like outside of democratic control, that

955
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:05,480
Speaker 3: it was its own thing, And I think predictably we're

956
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:09,920
Speaker 3: now getting the kind of expressions of that. If an

957
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:15,120
Speaker 3: agency is that far gone, why not reorganize it and

958
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 3: take the parts that we need. You know that if

959
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:22,239
Speaker 3: the government needs to carry out and give them to

960
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:24,920
Speaker 3: agencies that are under the control of the federal government.

961
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:27,680
Speaker 4: So clearly we.

962
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:30,239
Speaker 6: Have a problem with the culture of ICE right now

963
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 6: for the Trump administration, and we had that in the

964
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 6: first Trump administration as well.

965
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:41,120
Speaker 4: There may have been abuses under Obama, under Biden. I

966
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:43,000
Speaker 4: have to go back and look at that.

967
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:47,479
Speaker 6: So, look, I don't The question is the function, right,

968
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 6: not the name, And so I do believe that that.

969
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:55,960
Speaker 4: Function requires dramatic reform.

970
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:58,200
Speaker 6: I mean, if you look at you know, some of

971
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 6: the recruitment that's going on right now now, if you

972
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 6: look at the black standards in terms of training, we

973
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:08,520
Speaker 6: are seeing huge abuses. So look, I don't I don't

974
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 6: really care what you call it, but that the function

975
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:16,200
Speaker 6: is something that I think needs to be maintained in

976
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:19,440
Speaker 6: the sense that there has to be some agency that

977
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:25,080
Speaker 6: is responsible. For example, when somebody is here who is undocumented,

978
00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:28,440
Speaker 6: someone who's here illegally, that they and they commit a

979
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:30,680
Speaker 6: violent crime, there has to be somebody in the peral

980
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 6: government that addresses that.

981
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:36,160
Speaker 4: And that's currently ICE, so it was before.

982
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 6: So but again, the function, I think when people say

983
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 6: they want to get rid of ICE, it's sometimes people

984
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:48,920
Speaker 6: may interpret it as getting rid of that function. You know, again,

985
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:52,719
Speaker 6: my view is we shouldn't be funding Trump's ice operations.

986
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:55,920
Speaker 2: How scar do you think we are when you look

987
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:57,279
Speaker 2: at the lawless and zoo, when you look at the

988
00:54:57,600 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 2: mask off foreign policy, when you look at I mean

989
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:05,320
Speaker 2: ice agents, pepper spray a baby, assault random people, illegally

990
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 2: arrest American citizens, and now shoot remaining good three times

991
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:12,840
Speaker 2: in the face, Like, how do we put any of

992
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:16,640
Speaker 2: this back together? Given how far we've gone?

993
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:17,439
Speaker 4: Is it too late?

994
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 2: Or do you think that we can sort of come

995
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:23,200
Speaker 2: back from this moment of rising fascism and lawlessness in

996
00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:25,320
Speaker 2: this country and abroad.

997
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:27,799
Speaker 6: So I do believe we can come back. I think

998
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 6: there's been a huge amount of damage. I think it's

999
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:33,400
Speaker 6: going to require a lot of repair, both in terms

1000
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:36,400
Speaker 6: of you know, here at home as well as you know,

1001
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:41,799
Speaker 6: our foreign policy. But I do believe ultimately that the

1002
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 6: American people don't like what they're seeing with respect to

1003
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:50,279
Speaker 6: what Trump's doing, including his ice operations, and I think

1004
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:55,200
Speaker 6: that you will see changes in the midterm elections. Now,

1005
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:57,880
Speaker 6: you know, given the fact that you ever rogue president

1006
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:00,919
Speaker 6: who doesn't care about the constitution will remain a big,

1007
00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:06,680
Speaker 6: big challenge until twenty twenty eight. But look, lots of

1008
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 6: damage done. Do I think it's irreversible? No, But I

1009
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:13,759
Speaker 6: think that depends on all of us. I mean, I

1010
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 6: really do think the answer to your question depends on

1011
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 6: what the American people are doing and what's been So,

1012
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:24,839
Speaker 6: you know, heartwarming about this even terrible moment is to

1013
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:28,560
Speaker 6: listen to the whistle brigades right out in Minneapolis, the

1014
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:31,520
Speaker 6: neighbors coming out to defend their neighbors.

1015
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:33,520
Speaker 4: Seven million Americans.

1016
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 6: Going out on No King's Day, I mean in Maryland,

1017
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:38,400
Speaker 6: you know, I I went all over the state.

1018
00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:40,560
Speaker 4: It was heartwarming to see thousands.

1019
00:56:40,239 --> 00:56:43,360
Speaker 6: Of Marylanders coming out to resist the tyranny of the

1020
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:47,600
Speaker 6: Trump administration. So I do think that we have good,

1021
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:51,560
Speaker 6: strong antibodies to protect our democracy.

1022
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:53,960
Speaker 4: They are being threatened as never before.

1023
00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 6: But I do have faith at the end that if

1024
00:56:56,560 --> 00:57:00,000
Speaker 6: we all step up and step out, we will be successful.

1025
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:02,440
Speaker 6: After all, what Trump wants most of all is for

1026
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:03,799
Speaker 6: everybody to shut up at go away.

1027
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:05,600
Speaker 4: I mean, that is what they want. That's why they

1028
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:06,280
Speaker 4: threaten people.

1029
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:09,640
Speaker 6: That's why they locked up you know, students for expressing

1030
00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 6: their First Amendment views early in the administration.

1031
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 4: That was Secretary Rubio and others.

1032
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:18,320
Speaker 6: We need to push back really hard every day.

1033
00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:21,680
Speaker 3: Last one for me, So should we end weapon sales

1034
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:22,320
Speaker 3: to Israel?

1035
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 6: I think in this moment, I would I oppose transferring

1036
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 6: offensive weapons to Israel.

1037
00:57:29,080 --> 00:57:30,320
Speaker 4: I've not imposed sending some.

1038
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:35,960
Speaker 6: Defensive iron Doome defense systems that are used only to

1039
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:40,320
Speaker 6: intercept incoming missiles, but I think at this moment in time,

1040
00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:46,760
Speaker 6: we need to at the very least pause transfers of

1041
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:50,120
Speaker 6: offensive weapons, which is why I've continued to vote on

1042
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:53,640
Speaker 6: each of the votes we've had in the Senate to

1043
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 6: not allow the transfers of more offensive weapons so long

1044
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:02,160
Speaker 6: as Israel is violating in national law and American law.

1045
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:06,160
Speaker 2: Do you think that that distinction really makes it. I mean,

1046
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:08,960
Speaker 2: if you're shipping weapons, you're shipping weapons, and you know,

1047
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:12,240
Speaker 2: I think there's a pretty clear argument that supplying iron Dome,

1048
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:15,080
Speaker 2: for example, is part of what allows Israel to operate

1049
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:16,680
Speaker 2: with such impunity in the region.

1050
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:20,760
Speaker 6: I've supported iron Dome because there are other you know,

1051
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:25,480
Speaker 6: this is not only Gaza. They Israel obviously isn't a

1052
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:24,720
Speaker 6: you know.

1053
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 4: A tough neighborhood, and of course they are. Actually they

1054
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:29,320
Speaker 4: frequently bomb their neighbors.

1055
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:32,040
Speaker 6: They also it's going to make it a tough neighborhood

1056
00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:33,480
Speaker 6: that there's no doubt.

1057
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:35,880
Speaker 4: I mean, I think that the net Yahoo government.

1058
00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:39,160
Speaker 6: Has been really you know, bad for Israel and the

1059
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:39,920
Speaker 6: United States.

1060
00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:41,880
Speaker 4: As you know, we.

1061
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 6: Should be doing much more than we are, obviously to

1062
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:49,440
Speaker 6: rain in what the net Yahoo government is doing. But

1063
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:53,280
Speaker 6: I do think there's an important distinction between providing defensive

1064
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:54,840
Speaker 6: weapons and offensive weapons.

1065
00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:57,720
Speaker 2: All Right, Senator Chrispin Holland, thank you so much for

1066
00:58:57,720 --> 00:58:58,720
Speaker 2: spending so much time with us.

1067
00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:00,760
Speaker 4: We really appreciate it. Thank you. Good to be with

1068
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:01,280
Speaker 4: both of you.

1069
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:03,640
Speaker 2: All Right, guys, that does it for us. I will

1070
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:06,000
Speaker 2: be in with soccer tomorrow, so we will see you then.