Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
Speaker 2: my name is no.
Speaker 3: They call me Bed. We're joined as always with our
Speaker 3: super producer Paul Mission Control Decads. Most importantly, you are you.
Speaker 3: You are here. That makes this the stuff they don't
Speaker 3: want you to know. As we are joining in media
Speaker 3: arrests our exploration of the Eca Stones. We hope that
Speaker 3: you listen to part one, and more importantly, please feel
Speaker 3: free to toss us a review on Apple Podcast. Now
Speaker 3: back to the show. This is a puzzle that feels
Speaker 3: like it could be solvable right with the information we
Speaker 3: have at hand. This seems like it's just a matter
Speaker 3: of rearranging the pieces to form a coherent, a coherent
Speaker 3: cognitive picture. But these are not the most well known things.
Speaker 3: These are not the controversial ecostodes. They're two different buckets.
Speaker 3: The ones we just talked about, the simplistic stuff, patterns,
Speaker 3: easily identifiable motifs, and styles of depiction. Those things are understandable.
Speaker 3: The controversial things. The things that most of archaeology at
Speaker 3: large has a problem with today are the They're the
Speaker 3: ones that have I don't want to say fanciful. You
Speaker 3: could interpret them as depicting different species of dinosaur in detail,
Speaker 3: with human like figures hanging out with them. There are
Speaker 3: multiple instances of this, there are so many. There are
Speaker 3: also multiple instances of advanced technology, apparently, and not just
Speaker 3: like loose interpretations. Someone clearly drew a telescope, someone clearly
Speaker 3: multiple times drew a flying machine. It is not up
Speaker 3: for interpretation. There is no there is no material nor
Speaker 3: folkloric precedent that would indicate this is a symbol of
Speaker 3: a god or something. It's clearly somebody saw like a
Speaker 3: plane of some sort and then popped it into a stone.
Speaker 4: I see what you're saying, but I mean, you know,
Speaker 4: you could argue, if we are still on the side
Speaker 4: of like the zero authentic, that that kind of parallel
Speaker 4: thinking happens outside of like the ability for technology to
Speaker 4: create such a thing. You know, someone could be like,
Speaker 4: we know what technology is, we know how to make
Speaker 4: a tent. What if we just put that in the
Speaker 4: sky and like you know, had it like a like
Speaker 4: a sailing ship, but like in the sky with wings
Speaker 4: like a bird. We certainly have examples of things out
Speaker 4: of time like that. And I'm reading a Isaac Asimov
Speaker 4: book from nineteen fifty right now. And I know this
Speaker 4: is obvious for fans of science fiction, but I'm always
Speaker 4: blown away by how close they get it in the fifties,
Speaker 4: like of like what modern civilization looks like and what
Speaker 4: technology of the future actually looked like. Some of them
Speaker 4: really get it right, and it blows my mind. And
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, I just had to had to bring that up.
Speaker 3: That's a good point, man. I love it. I love it.
Speaker 5: I love it.
Speaker 3: Asthmav mentioned, I'm.
Speaker 5: Reading the Foundation series.
Speaker 4: I accidentally bought the second one out of sequence and
Speaker 4: then realized that, and then I ordered the first one
Speaker 4: and now I'm starting fresh. But I'm very excited because
Speaker 4: I haven't I haven't. I'm not gonna lie, guys. I
Speaker 4: haven't read a book in a hot minute, so I
Speaker 4: will report.
Speaker 2: Now, guys. We mentioned that some of these stone depict
Speaker 2: also medical procedures, which is super puzzling in itself. One
Speaker 2: of the things that you may notice if you're ever
Speaker 2: researching this stuff is that there tend to be records
Speaker 2: of usually religious rights, sacrifices, funereal rights. When it comes
Speaker 2: to cutting into a human body, like you'll see imagery
Speaker 2: or writing about that, removing things from the body, putting
Speaker 2: things on the body when you're going through one of
Speaker 2: these rituals. But rarely do you see a medical procedure
Speaker 2: or what would be described as a medical procedure in
Speaker 2: the modern day. What are we seeing here?
Speaker 3: I want to set up, Yeah, there is, for instance,
Speaker 3: evidence of the practice of trepanation in some ancient cultures, right,
Speaker 3: which is you know, if you've ever had a migraine,
Speaker 3: you've thought about it, no judgment. And we also know
Speaker 3: people did survive some of those procedures, not all of them,
Speaker 3: I'm gonna say, not all of them. But to your point, Matt,
Speaker 3: which is excellent set up. There, we see that there
Speaker 3: are things interpreted as depictions of a cesarean operation, right,
Speaker 3: a C section we call it. That's where when someone
Speaker 3: is giving birth you have to conduct a surgical operation
Speaker 3: to extract the child from the womb. And that happens
Speaker 3: every day, every evening. And these are modern nights. But
Speaker 3: in times where infant mortality was much higher, we know
Speaker 3: that a lot of people died because that technology was
Speaker 3: not or that process, that technique was not commonplace. So
Speaker 3: if the ecostones as they appear to, if they indicate
Speaker 3: that this was common knowledge for some empire, then that
Speaker 3: is a game changer because that would show us that
Speaker 3: this sophisticated medical procedure was discovered and then lost somewhere
Speaker 3: in the sands of time, which is fascinating and quite possible.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, the modern cesarean section as we think about it,
Speaker 2: goes back pretty far to the eight the late eighteen hundreds.
Speaker 2: But still that if you could pull that off and
Speaker 2: keep the mother alive and the baby alive in those
Speaker 2: times with the tools available, at least known to be available,
Speaker 2: it would be like magic.
Speaker 3: No antibiotics, I mean, that's it's created. No germ theory anyway,
Speaker 3: we know that. We know that by the time the
Speaker 3: Spanish Empire arrived and met the Inca Empire, there was
Speaker 3: not germ theory. So that is another question. To recap
Speaker 3: what we have so far. Out in a rural Peruvian
Speaker 3: cave or series of caves, there appears to be a
Speaker 3: collection of stones not only functioning as a multi civilization
Speaker 3: depiction of history unfamiliar to the modern world. But they
Speaker 3: also appear to show that human beings interacted with creatures
Speaker 3: who look a heck of a lot like dinosaurs and
Speaker 3: possess technology and medical techniques far more sophisticated than anything
Speaker 3: else we know about during that time. We're setting up
Speaker 3: a lot of questions and we're going to get to them.
Speaker 3: But first things first, how did these stones get discovered
Speaker 3: in the first place? How do we even know about
Speaker 3: them today?
Speaker 2: You know, one thing we didn't mention is that some
Speaker 2: of the depictions of human like creatures and dinosaur like
Speaker 2: creatures were a little more familiar than just attacking them, right, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: like maybe some interbreeding of some sort.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there were giants in those days. The sons of
Speaker 3: God saw the daughters of man and found them beautiful. Yeah,
Speaker 3: there's beastiality. Let's just say it's fun.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but in some of them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's there, it's it is undeniably graft that.
Speaker 5: You know what.
Speaker 3: That's one of the ones that's the least open to
Speaker 3: interpretation there.
Speaker 4: I mean, if you look at the image, I mean,
Speaker 4: if you look at images of them printed, you know,
Speaker 4: it's like there's a big old blurt out section, you know,
Speaker 4: like with the bodies intertwine.
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh gosh, oh boy, Yeah, that part's true. And
Speaker 3: that's actually uh going back to statement about the earlier
Speaker 3: two buckets, that belongs to the the more simplistic ones,
Speaker 3: the people banging animals, animals banging people, that's the more
Speaker 3: simplistic stuff. That's not like the interestings work.
Speaker 4: Well no, just the idea of animals banging people. And
Speaker 4: just then there's an implication of agency there.
Speaker 5: I know, but you know it can be done. Yeah,
Speaker 5: they we know dolphins will just about anything.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, especially if you give them enough LSD.
Speaker 5: That story for another day, that actually is out there.
Speaker 4: We've certainly discussed the the works of what is it Lily?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we do know thes was triple the horny
Speaker 2: that any other dinosaur was. Sorry, very good.
Speaker 5: Impact right into that one.
Speaker 3: Every palaeontologist in the audience tonight nodded, solemnly.
Speaker 4: Threw up a little in their mouths.
Speaker 3: Triceratops the horniest of the So how do we know
Speaker 3: about these eco stones today? The story begins, this is weird.
Speaker 3: The official story begins on May thirteenth, nineteen sixty six.
Speaker 3: It starts with the story overall starts with two men.
Speaker 3: There's a farmer in the Ika province in Peru. His
Speaker 3: name is Basilo Lusha and a there's a physician son
Speaker 3: of a Spanish aristocrat. His name is doctor Javier Cabrera d'arqua.
Speaker 3: And according to the doctor Cabrea, he learns about the stones.
Speaker 3: A little later in life. He has a friend of
Speaker 3: photographer Felix Josa Romero, who gives him one of these
Speaker 3: stones as a present for his forty second birthday. This
Speaker 3: guy does not know. He doesn't know paleontology from m
Speaker 3: Canna paint right. He is a physician's a good doctor,
Speaker 3: and like a lot of very smart people, he has
Speaker 3: a hobby. His hobby is Peruvian prehistory.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he's like, hey, thanks for that gift, man,
Speaker 2: how'd you make this? Yeah? No, I'm just joking.
Speaker 5: And then he's like, how dare you sir?
Speaker 2: No, But he noticed some weird things specifically, and I
Speaker 2: love that we're pointing this out. Specifically, a fish hanging
Speaker 2: out with some humans that should have been gone way
Speaker 2: before the humans would have even known that that thing existed.
Speaker 4: Well, isn't that part of the weirdness, as some of
Speaker 4: these depict creatures that just their timelines would not have
Speaker 4: crossed in general.
Speaker 5: Right, that's sort of the idea.
Speaker 3: One hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah, the so our good doctor
Speaker 3: gets his gift. Here's forty second birthday. You know, he's
Speaker 3: an eclectic guy, he's a renaissance man. And he says,
Speaker 3: hang on, I you know, I'm an armchair historian. I
Speaker 3: I've never I know enough about fish to know exactly
Speaker 3: he called you out. Man, He's like, I know exactly
Speaker 3: what No Brown's gonna say later. This fish would never
Speaker 3: have been around in the time of the modern humans.
Speaker 3: Interestingly enough, doctor Cabrera never explained specifically what particular fish
Speaker 3: he believed this stone depicted. And I mean, I've looked.
Speaker 4: Everywhere a rudimentary cave drawing esque style of a fish.
Speaker 4: They've got a whole lot of discerning like like a stegosaurus.
Speaker 4: That's a stegosaurus. But there was the fish that tipped
Speaker 4: him off. I just I don't quite quite get that.
Speaker 2: It was a come on, we're all whatever.
Speaker 4: I don't It's a little specific, That's all I'm saying.
Speaker 3: Yeah, But also it doesn't start with the dinosaurs. It
Speaker 3: starts with the fish, right, that's how it's like scientology.
Speaker 3: That's how they get him in. They get him in
Speaker 3: with psychic just off the far enough, and he says,
Speaker 3: you know, we can only imagine. He goes back to
Speaker 3: Romero and he says, thank you so much for this gift.
Speaker 3: You know, fel to me, this also is an impossible thing.
Speaker 3: This is clearly made by Homo sapien, and it's clearly
Speaker 3: depicting a fish that I know did not exist during
Speaker 3: the time of Homo sapien. Where did you get this?
Speaker 3: You must tell me? And he learns through his friend
Speaker 3: that people in the Ika province have been finding stones
Speaker 3: in a nearby cavern actually due to some meteorological phenomenon,
Speaker 3: and he says, I must have these, right, and he's
Speaker 3: let's be honest, no shade one way or the other.
Speaker 3: But the good doctor here is in the upper echelons
Speaker 3: of Peruvian society, so he can forward to have an
Speaker 3: expensive hobby like this.
Speaker 4: Sure, So I guess I'm trying to understand his motivation.
Speaker 4: Initially when he said the thing about this fish, like
Speaker 4: he is suspicious of their authenticity or he thinks they
Speaker 4: represent something massive he'sfisious.
Speaker 5: He is suspicious. Okay, oh god, got it. Gots making
Speaker 5: sure that I'm on the same.
Speaker 1: Fish page.
Speaker 5: Carry on, pay me, no mind, all right.
Speaker 3: Well, no pun left behind. You're absolutely right. No. What
Speaker 3: he does here is he is intrigued, right. He doesn't
Speaker 3: suspect any scoundrel activity or cons or griffs or chicanery.
Speaker 3: He wants to know more because he's long held an
Speaker 3: intense interest in Peruvian prehistory. He's a good faith actor,
Speaker 3: as we called him on this show. And he starts
Speaker 3: he starts hitting the streets for lack of a better phrase,
Speaker 3: and he wants to find more stones. He wants to
Speaker 3: find this cave in particular, he wants to figure out
Speaker 3: where this came from, because you know, if we assume
Speaker 3: his perspective, this is something that could fundamentally upend history.
Speaker 3: I mean, imagine, you know, imagine if we found something
Speaker 3: like this. We're on an adventure and we find something
Speaker 3: that seems to indicate people provably ran into Bigfoot or something.
Speaker 4: The stuff that we've long wanted to be proved true,
Speaker 4: you know what I mean.
Speaker 5: I mean that's part of this too.
Speaker 4: Is that confirmation bias, I guess or that drive within
Speaker 4: us to like have our dreams, you know, come true.
Speaker 2: Right, that'd be awesome, dude, if any of us found
Speaker 2: something like this, I can guarantee we'd be feeling trepid
Speaker 2: day fish about it.
Speaker 5: I almost said, one almost swam right past me.
Speaker 3: Oh buddy. Oh, And we'll pause here for a word
Speaker 3: from our sponsors. We'll be right back. And we have
Speaker 3: returned not just to the show, but to Peruvian conspiracies.
Speaker 3: So this guy, doctor Cabrera, he ends up purchasing more.
Speaker 3: But the word gets around and there's a pair of brothers,
Speaker 3: Carlos and Pablo Soldi, and they hear about his interest
Speaker 3: and they approach him and they say, hey, Doc, we
Speaker 3: have an interest in pre inca art as well. We
Speaker 3: have found a lot of stones. He ends up purchasing
Speaker 3: something like three hundred and ten individual samples of these
Speaker 3: stones from a nearby region. And they say, look, we've
Speaker 3: been trying to talk to archaeologists about this. No one's
Speaker 3: really into it. They think it's boring or it's honestly
Speaker 3: not going to help them in their dissertations or whatever.
Speaker 3: And so he says, okay, I'll buy it, and he
Speaker 3: gets it for a song. He gets it for like,
Speaker 3: let's see, this is the mid nineteen sixties. He gets
Speaker 3: it for the equivalent of thirty pound sterling, so like
Speaker 3: thirty British pounds that comes to us from the forty
Speaker 3: een times. So he gets it at a very reasonable rate.
Speaker 3: And he's still hungry for more stones. So he runs
Speaker 3: into a farmer. Our second character we mentioned earlier, Basilia Usha,
Speaker 3: and this guy, this farmer, Basilio, says, hey, look, duck,
Speaker 3: I found this huge cash of stones because the Eco
Speaker 3: River overflowed its banks and it destroyed nearby a globoration
Speaker 3: of soil that exposed a cave. And I have also
Speaker 3: been tried to get the attention of the Peruvian government.
Speaker 3: I need I need the boffins on this, and and
Speaker 3: the doctor says, well, hey, I'm wealthy, I'm smart, I'm interested.
Speaker 3: Tell me where the cave is. And the farmer says,
Speaker 3: oh no, no, no, no no, I can't tell you
Speaker 3: where the cave is, but I will sell you some
Speaker 3: of these stones.
Speaker 4: Who That's where things get a little sussy though, right,
Speaker 4: because like, let's just come at this from the perspective
Speaker 4: that these are authentic, doesn't that make this extra illegal
Speaker 4: this type of yes, because.
Speaker 5: I mean yes, the government I believe is.
Speaker 4: Very hard on, you know, the theft of Peruvian artifacts,
Speaker 4: which is what this would be.
Speaker 2: Considered one thousand percent and you would have motive here.
Speaker 2: It would exist if you were a detective looking at this.
Speaker 2: You know, in every light possible, you say, oh, this,
Speaker 2: this man knows that this particular person is pretty wealthy
Speaker 2: and willing to purchase something that you know he's already purchased.
Speaker 2: Would you say three hundred and something, which would be
Speaker 2: a pretty big windfall if you could sell three hundred
Speaker 2: or maybe even more.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's tasty. There's a new mommy to it, right,
Speaker 3: So yeah, he says, look, Doc, I can't tell you
Speaker 3: about the cave, but I can sell these to you
Speaker 3: because the archaeologist won't pay attention to me, and we
Speaker 3: can only assume. The doctor said, I feel you I
Speaker 3: could contact the archaeologist, and the farmer said, no, okay, okay, okay,
Speaker 3: one step at a time. Let me tell you some stones.
Speaker 3: Doctor Cabrera ended up buying thousands of these. He had
Speaker 3: more than, according to some report, to have more than
Speaker 3: ten thousand, more than eleven thousand by the nineteen seventies
Speaker 3: and over the years, because these guys had a relationship
Speaker 3: for more than a decade. Over the years, Basilio produced
Speaker 3: hundreds of these carved stones, and Cabrera, leveraging his social position,
Speaker 3: became their greatest promoter, and he would always reach out
Speaker 3: to scholars, to other aristocrats, fringe theory enthusiasts, and everybody
Speaker 3: that he was speaking to. He was less asking them
Speaker 3: for analysis and more proselytizing toward them and saying, these
Speaker 3: stones are evidence that everything you know is wrong. Right
Speaker 3: up and down right his left, shortest long blah blah blah.
Speaker 3: That's a weird Al Yankovic reference. I don't think it'll land.
Speaker 3: We'll keep it. But he's also he's also calling to
Speaker 3: religious fundamentalist crouts, calling to creationists. And this gets us
Speaker 3: to the point where we see that there are more
Speaker 3: easily more than ten thousand stones as we record this evening.
Speaker 3: They've been identified as eco stones. The majority belonged to
Speaker 3: the estate of Cabrera. He was the hugest promoter. He
Speaker 3: made his own museum. Imagine being that well off, you
Speaker 3: could make your own museum for a thing. Why don't
Speaker 3: we have a museum? Can we do a museum.
Speaker 2: I could with the magic cards.
Speaker 4: I could with synthesizers and action figures, but I kind
Speaker 4: of want to keep them, so maybe maybe maybe after
Speaker 4: I died, but then I'll be able to use them, you
Speaker 4: know what.
Speaker 5: The museum could be hands on, Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like Sidetracker for a big museum he created originally
Speaker 3: just contained stones he had purchased from those brothers that
Speaker 3: we mentioned earlier, along with stones from his father's collection.
Speaker 3: We said he was an aristocrat. His father, Bolivia Cabrera,
Speaker 3: was from Spain, and his father had also collected stones.
Speaker 3: Now this may be something that's familiar to various members
Speaker 3: of the crowd tonight, but like just a quick personal anecdote,
Speaker 3: I remember growing up on some family land that was
Speaker 3: riddled with arrowheads. Did you guys ever do that, like
Speaker 3: go digging for arrowheads?
Speaker 5: I did go digging.
Speaker 4: I don't know that I ever found anything authentic, but
Speaker 4: it was also easiest to find chipped rocks and just
Speaker 4: say that's what they were, you know, as with your
Speaker 4: childlike imagination.
Speaker 5: That was probably more me.
Speaker 4: I bet you guys found some real deals though, trick
Speaker 4: myself into believing a lot of like flint like things
Speaker 4: were ever, tie it onto a stick and make yourself
Speaker 4: an improvised bow out of a more bendy stick with
Speaker 4: a nice piece of twine.
Speaker 2: I can't say that I did that.
Speaker 5: I did. Oh, is that unusual? I did, for sure.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I found some you know, probably canines
Speaker 2: or some teeth from small animals that I totally believed
Speaker 2: were shark teeth back in the day as well.
Speaker 3: Oh, I thought you were going to say you made
Speaker 3: them into you made arrows from them, arrows from teeth.
Speaker 3: That's the most subtle thing.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that would be sick.
Speaker 4: You can put the backwards part forward, you know, with
Speaker 4: all the little spiky parts.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: But Cabrera wasn't He also kind of a bit of
Speaker 4: a hype man, like he really wanted to spread the word.
Speaker 5: Of these things far and wide.
Speaker 3: And this is where we see the folklore progression, or
Speaker 3: the evolution the telephone game of this theory, because he
Speaker 3: was talking to everybody about this, right, anyone who would
Speaker 3: hear him out in academia, outside of academia. He wanted
Speaker 3: their not even their opinion, certainly not their criticism. He
Speaker 3: wanted their coside. And as the word transmitted throughout the
Speaker 3: globe in different circles. It came to the attention of
Speaker 3: a guy named Eric Vaughan Danakan, Eric von Danakan, Yeah,
Speaker 3: publishes a paperback that I loved when I came out,
Speaker 3: The Chariots of the Gods question Mark A little bit
Speaker 3: of hedging there. He publishes this first in nineteen sixty nine.
Speaker 3: It becomes an international bestseller, and a deluge of similar
Speaker 3: books hit the market right after, you know, like when
Speaker 3: an Action Blockbuster comes out, then they're inevitably a bunch
Speaker 3: of direct to It used to be direct to vhs,
Speaker 3: but now it's like direct to streaming sort of one offs.
Speaker 3: What's the name of that the b studios.
Speaker 4: Well, they called the mockbusters was that term that was used,
Speaker 4: but it was one called like the asylum, I think,
Speaker 4: like so instead of transformers, it was transmorphers. And they
Speaker 4: were literally banking on people I think, getting confused at
Speaker 4: the video store and probably made some made some bucks
Speaker 4: off of that.
Speaker 3: Similar in the mass market paperback game. At this point,
Speaker 3: all of the The key thing here is that all
Speaker 3: of these books name checked the mysterious Eca Stones, and
Speaker 3: then later religious uh religious types took up the cause
Speaker 3: of the Eca Stones because they were creationists, and uh,
Speaker 3: not to not to call any of us out, but
Speaker 3: anybody raised in a very religious Christian religious environment knows
Speaker 3: that there's, uh, there's a lot of controversy around the
Speaker 3: age of the Earth.
Speaker 4: Right, Well, there's certain perspectives in that kind of school
Speaker 4: of thought. I guess they would even argue that dinosaurs
Speaker 4: aren't real.
Speaker 2: Right, Oh yeah, I've heard that argument.
Speaker 3: Is that real, like people saying dinosaurs aren't a thing?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's the speculation goes that it's a big trick
Speaker 2: by the Smithsonian and other government organizations that are based
Speaker 2: in Satan, and it's trying to trick human beings to
Speaker 2: believe the Earth is much older and all this stuff,
Speaker 2: when in fact, firmament and flat earth and all that
Speaker 2: all just kind of want.
Speaker 4: To simply pointing out an extremity of this position, right,
Speaker 4: and then it's definitely what you might call fringe. A
Speaker 4: lot of this is but there are certainly people out
Speaker 4: there that do put forth that that might well be
Speaker 4: a possibility.
Speaker 3: Interesting contradiction because a lot of the creationists who championed
Speaker 3: the idea of the ego stones championed it because it
Speaker 3: showed that it appeared to show dinosaurs and humans living together,
Speaker 3: which vibed with their idea that humans and dinosaurs both
Speaker 3: existed in a world that was like six thousand to
Speaker 3: five thousand years old.
Speaker 5: Max, Oh, if I'm not mistaken.
Speaker 4: Though, in certain kind of religious, more religious parts of
Speaker 4: the country where there was controversy around depicting, you know,
Speaker 4: evolution in textbooks, I believe there were some more creationist
Speaker 4: leaning versions of textbooks that did express that very same sentiment.
Speaker 5: Ben, And this is a long time ago.
Speaker 4: I don't think this is maybe as much of a
Speaker 4: thing anymore, but I do remember when that was a
Speaker 4: real controversy. There were teachers in certain schools in certain
Speaker 4: parts of the world that might.
Speaker 5: Have taught such things.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I had a T shirt for a long time, guys,
Speaker 2: you might remember it. It was a great T shirt
Speaker 2: and had a picture of Jesus writing on a raptor,
Speaker 2: and it was kind of poking fun at some of
Speaker 2: that stuff.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 2: I'm a little embarrassed by it now, but it was
Speaker 2: one of my favorite shirts.
Speaker 3: Wait do you not have that shirt before?
Speaker 4: I think that would be a thrift store find right there.
Speaker 4: Let me tell you, people would pay good money for that, Oh.
Speaker 3: Man, I agree with Noel on this one. We also
Speaker 3: know that riding the wave of this attention, the Good
Speaker 3: Doctor wrote his own book where he set forth the
Speaker 3: majority of the claims that have become sort of the
Speaker 3: manifesto for people who believe in the Eca Stones. And
Speaker 3: this is the hidden history. We got to talk about it, right,
Speaker 3: We've made this a two part episode. Let's get into it.
Speaker 3: What does he say in his book The Message of
Speaker 3: the Engraved Stones of Eca.
Speaker 2: Let's say these one at a time. The first one
Speaker 2: is that the stones themselves are way older than you think. Well,
Speaker 2: I promise they're way older than you're imagining the thing
Speaker 2: I'm about to say at least.
Speaker 3: Oh, let's prices write it.
Speaker 2: One dollar million dollars.
Speaker 3: Okay, twelve thousand years, one million years.
Speaker 2: Way way more four hundred and five million years old
Speaker 2: at least according to the book Wow, based on what exactly.
Speaker 5: Vie It does say.
Speaker 4: Equally does go on to claim that through the transplantation
Speaker 4: of cognitive codes to highly intelligent primates, the men from
Speaker 4: outer space created new men on Earth. So these are
Speaker 4: like gods. These are like like kind of godlike entities.
Speaker 4: It's almost like the uh the Engineers and Prometheus in
Speaker 4: the in the in the Alien World universe.
Speaker 2: The important thing to know there is that, according to
Speaker 2: the book, humans did not start here on planet Earth.
Speaker 3: Which technically could be seen as supporting the idea of
Speaker 3: pan spermia, which is really concept with a terrible name.
Speaker 2: Again, every time that word comes up, I think about
Speaker 2: Dan Harmon being like that, what did you say?
Speaker 3: He roasted us on that one. Yeah? Dad, if you're listening,
Speaker 3: shout out man. Yeah. The stones also, according to doctor Cabrera,
Speaker 3: they depict dinosaurs and these proto humans he calls the
Speaker 3: stones that he likes. The doctor calls them glypto liths,
Speaker 3: and he says the show that these hypothetical ancient people
Speaker 3: interacted with these reptiles, and they had larger brains than
Speaker 3: those of modern man, these alien humans, and that they
Speaker 3: used a form of quote, concentrated psychic energy ends quote,
Speaker 3: with which they were able to influence celestial events, and
Speaker 3: they would record those massive, those massive instances of esp
Speaker 3: on the stones. So of course they would so like,
Speaker 3: you know how, I want to be careful. I would
Speaker 3: say this. We all have at some point met a
Speaker 3: person who is low key convinced they can control the weather. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I'm not kidding. There there are people who and we're
Speaker 3: not saying they're jerks or assholes or anything like that,
Speaker 3: you know, but they're saying, Oh, I can make it rain,
Speaker 3: or oh I can stop the rain.
Speaker 2: I've had my moments when there's some gusting winds in
Speaker 2: the back where I put my hand out right as
Speaker 2: the wind starts back up and I go, oh, oh crap.
Speaker 3: And to explain the science with that, because there is
Speaker 3: science to that, it's it's a matter of psychological interpretation
Speaker 3: of the physical signals, like your body will tell you
Speaker 3: when it's about to rain, or when sometimes when the
Speaker 3: rain's going to stop. Things like that. You know, if
Speaker 3: you want to impress us if you can control the weather,
Speaker 3: then show us video of you make enlightening.
Speaker 2: Yes, please, let's pause right here for a word from
Speaker 2: our sponsor and get back with more on the eco
Speaker 2: stones and we're back really quickly, jump back in here.
Speaker 2: The concept that some incredibly psychically powerful civilization, right manlike
Speaker 2: creatures could have all of this technology or all of
Speaker 2: this understanding, could be disadvanced and would choose stones as
Speaker 2: the medium to record what they do into to a
Speaker 2: historical record into stones. It may sound silly when it
Speaker 2: first when you first hear it, but it always makes
Speaker 2: me remember our discussions we've had about what actually sticks
Speaker 2: around after nature takes over.
Speaker 5: Something.
Speaker 2: Yeah, is stones, stone work, stone carvings specifically, even this
Speaker 2: kind of carving, paintings.
Speaker 4: Even, I mean, we have so much information from the
Speaker 4: historical record, not only just in terms of like sedimentary record,
Speaker 4: but like actual artifacts that were created by stone because
Speaker 4: they're just damn resilient. Then, as we pointed out, these
Speaker 4: particular types of stones, these volcanic stones, are particularly resilient,
Speaker 4: which is kind of a feature and a bug in
Speaker 4: this scenario, at least in terms of the provenance of
Speaker 4: these things.
Speaker 5: Right. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Check out the research that US scientists and sci fi
Speaker 3: writers did a few decades back when they were trying
Speaker 3: to figure out how to warn future civilizations about the
Speaker 3: dangers of radiation. They ultimately end up going back to
Speaker 3: stone glyphs. Yep, because that'll stick around. So there is
Speaker 3: there is a lot of plausibility to that or possibility.
Speaker 3: But are but.
Speaker 2: The way ben Yeah, stone glyphs and pictograms, right, like
Speaker 2: pictures not words.
Speaker 6: Not words like ikea instructions wow man, Okay, sorry, Ike,
Speaker 6: it reminds me of this thing, like, if this is real, maybe.
Speaker 2: That is how somebody would try and get a message
Speaker 2: across millions of years.
Speaker 3: Mm hmm, yeah right, it's It's one of the most
Speaker 3: effective ways. So if you ever want a lasting monument,
Speaker 3: make it in stone, honestly, and just hope the tectonic
Speaker 3: plates play ball.
Speaker 5: They don't collide too hard, right.
Speaker 3: Right, And speaking of when worlds collide, our buddy doctor
Speaker 3: Cabrera runs into science fiction, right. He does a lot
Speaker 3: for future sci fi writers when he says, furthermore, I
Speaker 3: believe that some of the machines depicted in these in
Speaker 3: these motifs, they look like spacecraft, which to me means
Speaker 3: they traveled through space without consuming fuel. And the Nosca
Speaker 3: lines are definitely, foresure remnants of an ancient spaceport. I
Speaker 3: am taking no questions at this time.
Speaker 4: Become a good dayson I said, yeah, I mean, look, okay.
Speaker 3: Also, before, lest we sound like we're dunking on this
Speaker 3: guy unnecessarily, it is true that the earliest Peruvian artifacts
Speaker 3: do date back to around twenty thousand years ago. These
Speaker 3: are true things. They do not make any claims about
Speaker 3: living around dinosaurs. They don't make any claims about traveling
Speaker 3: through space or any great celestial psychic power esp revelations.
Speaker 3: We know that engraved stones have been around in the
Speaker 3: region and discovered way before the Ecostones gained prominence in
Speaker 3: nineteen sixty six. There were Jesuit missionaries who traveled through
Speaker 3: Peru during the Spanish conquest, and they even sent some
Speaker 3: of these stones, like engraved stones from previous civilizations back
Speaker 3: to Spain. Some of these stones are legitimate, but there
Speaker 3: are problems. I think we can talk about that, right
Speaker 3: if there's an actual All right, here's the thing. Technology
Speaker 3: leaves more than a single imprint future, Like in this
Speaker 3: kind of time window, you know, two thousand years from now,
Speaker 3: the idea of a fossil fuel powered civilization is not
Speaker 3: going to be based on the discovery of a single
Speaker 3: cache of stones in a cave. There are going to
Speaker 3: be other pieces of residue, a sort of sociological ectoplasm,
Speaker 3: if you will, right, vestiges of these things. Well, thank you,
Speaker 3: thank you. Yeah. The Inca didn't have a written record,
Speaker 3: but they had a rich oral tradition. So you're telling
Speaker 3: us that not one single story from this super dense
Speaker 3: catalog of folklore. Not one of those stories mentioned a
Speaker 3: telescope or a beat me here a machine that could fly.
Speaker 2: Oh man, that is such a good point.
Speaker 3: Just never mention it. It's just the one one stone.
Speaker 3: I mean, dinosaurs also died out, as far as we know,
Speaker 3: for the most part, way before primates hit the scene.
Speaker 2: At least that we're we're aware of. That's what science
Speaker 2: says right now, yeah.
Speaker 3: Quote unquote science. I mean, also, you know, if we're
Speaker 3: tracing the modern story. The BBC produced a documentary on
Speaker 3: the Eco Stones, and they had some scathing conclusions. It
Speaker 3: goes back, I think to your earlier point, Noel. The
Speaker 3: Peruvian government felt a lot of Western pressure and they
Speaker 3: felt like they had to respond to this.
Speaker 5: That's right.
Speaker 4: They did have a mandate to, you know, kind of
Speaker 4: oversee the historical relics, the antiquities of the country, and
Speaker 4: so the government felt that pressure to kind of have
Speaker 4: a show of force here. So they arrested the farmer
Speaker 4: for selling these stones under the pretemps these were in
Speaker 4: fact legitimate artifacts, at which point the farmer does about
Speaker 4: face and quickly changes his story. Whether or not you
Speaker 4: believe this is just a self serving act of a
Speaker 4: desperate person that's been backed into a corner.
Speaker 5: Or if this is the real story in LA, you
Speaker 5: be the judge.
Speaker 4: There were farmer re candidates story claiming in fact that
Speaker 4: he had carved all ten thousand of the stones himself.
Speaker 4: Get a step further, guys. He demonstrated his technique. Remember
Speaker 4: we were talking about how do you penetrate the you know,
Speaker 4: the very durable seven out of ten mose scale surface
Speaker 4: of these volcanic rocks. We're gonna need something a little
Speaker 4: more powerful than just like a hammer and chisel, and
Speaker 4: he showed that he had been doing it with sort
Speaker 4: of like a drimal type tool or I guess maybe
Speaker 4: you could a dental drill, maybe, Ben, which was my
Speaker 4: teeth throw on.
Speaker 5: I just thinking about it.
Speaker 3: Makes your teeth sing. Yeah, apparently, he said. Just we
Speaker 3: were relating there, this is how I did it. Not
Speaker 3: only did I create these historical hoaxes like this shrouded
Speaker 3: to it, but I also used a dental drill. Let
Speaker 3: me show you the these methods. The government considered this
Speaker 3: all a hoax. They shut it down and they said,
Speaker 3: all right, our geopolitical embarrassment is over and done with
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, Like, if you fart in
Speaker 3: a busy elevator and then you get to your floor, hey,
Speaker 3: just walk away, you know, you just hope you don't
Speaker 3: meet those six people again. Cynthia, I'm sorry, Well, can I.
Speaker 2: Can I posit something here just as a again, maybe
Speaker 2: a minor devil's advocate.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, major devil's advocate.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of this farmer.
Speaker 2: And the government finally gets wind of what you're doing,
Speaker 2: and they're none too happy about it. They're saying, hey, uh,
Speaker 2: what you've been doing is illegal, and you are going
Speaker 2: under the jail for betraying your country basically, and all
Speaker 2: of the people's in the history you're you're going to jail.
Speaker 2: Would you maybe, put in that position be willing to
Speaker 2: say something like I hoaxed this whole thing to try
Speaker 2: and get out of that.
Speaker 4: Well, that's yeah, that's what I was kind of saying.
Speaker 4: I wasn't being a total jerk. I mean, like, it
Speaker 4: does seem backed into a corner or perhaps because of
Speaker 4: the influence of others, that this person took the fall,
Speaker 4: you know, and uh and acted as sort of a
Speaker 4: knowing Patsy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I like that. I like this. I think this
Speaker 3: is a fitting wave for us to begin wrapping this up,
Speaker 3: because even now a ton of people believe that Eco
Speaker 3: stones are legitimate and that there is a cover up
Speaker 3: of some sort of foot because the person with the
Speaker 3: lowest socioeconomic status, Let's be honest, Basilio I was forced
Speaker 3: to announce that he had faked the stones to avoid imprisonment,
Speaker 3: and they were going to lock this guy up for years. Uh.
Speaker 3: Peruvian law explicitly prohibits the sale of archaeological discoveries. So
Speaker 3: what if under that pressure, perhaps pressure against his family
Speaker 3: as well, he took the fall right and said, hey,
Speaker 3: I'm faking it. Nothing to see here, you know. Just
Speaker 3: let me be a free man, Let my family be safe.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 3: And I've learned not to interact with the one percent
Speaker 3: or whatever. He later has an interview with a journalist
Speaker 3: wherein he says, I did not forge any of this.
Speaker 3: I had to claim they were a hoax so I
Speaker 3: could avoid jail time because you know, I'm not a
Speaker 3: wealthy man.
Speaker 4: I have to keep my job because of the iron
Speaker 4: fisted approach to pursuing folks dealing in these types of
Speaker 4: stolen antiquities right.
Speaker 3: Right, and then we see other ripples in the pond.
Speaker 3: Here there are other folks like a archaeologist Alejandro Pezi Eserito,
Speaker 3: They who argue that they have found other stones that
Speaker 3: are similar, that also have engraved patina, that if not,
Speaker 3: if they don't purport to show the same things, they
Speaker 3: show similar things.
Speaker 4: I think it's really important that we'd tina. I think
Speaker 4: is very interesting because if you look at like a
Speaker 4: raw one of these types of volcanic stones, they're real rough,
Speaker 4: you know, the outside, and they aren't like this kind
Speaker 4: of smooth obsidian quality. And if you look at images
Speaker 4: of these stones they have that. That's why I brought
Speaker 4: up a massage stone thing. That's what those look like.
Speaker 4: They have this sort of patina that that has to
Speaker 4: be carved into.
Speaker 5: Well, what do you think, who's full of crap? Here?
Speaker 3: Well, some of the stones, this is the thing. Part
Speaker 3: of this is true. Some of these stones are legitimate.
Speaker 3: That's fantastic news. The slightly less fantastic news is that
Speaker 3: the legit stones, which are weathered for sure, and are
Speaker 3: ancient and are engraved by human hands, they're all what
Speaker 3: we will call the tamer stones. They don't have fanciful
Speaker 3: depictions dinosaurs and humans high five and none of the
Speaker 3: sci fi stuff. It looks like historical hoaxes got mixed
Speaker 3: in with the general article as part of the booming
Speaker 3: illegal trade in ancient artifacts. That's a distressingly common phenomena
Speaker 3: throughout the world and throughout history, like how many pieces
Speaker 3: of the True Cross were sold in the Middle Ages.
Speaker 3: You know what I mean?
Speaker 2: I do, yeah, And it makes sense, as we said
Speaker 2: at the very top of this, if you find there
Speaker 2: is a side hustle and all you need is a
Speaker 2: drill in some smooth stones and you can make bank.
Speaker 2: M Maybe you take that.
Speaker 3: We got into the wrong business, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: Like I think we should be all the time.
Speaker 3: Faking historical stuff right.
Speaker 2: Now, gosh, in my dreams.
Speaker 3: Here's here's the real bullet that hit Kennedy. Too dark.
Speaker 3: All right, we'll do something, We'll do something different. So
Speaker 3: this is mostly a hoax unless we choose to believe
Speaker 3: doctor Cabrera and Usja, both of whom ultimately maintained that
Speaker 3: there is something the Peruvian government and perhaps the world
Speaker 3: doesn't want you to know. Unfortunately, we cannot ask the
Speaker 3: doctor about his beliefs directly as he passed away in
Speaker 3: two thousand and one. However, if you want to learn more,
Speaker 3: he has a museum. His estate has museum, the Museo
Speaker 3: Scientifico Avier Caberettra, which you can visit.
Speaker 4: I do think it's really interesting, man, when you google
Speaker 4: this stuff and look for, like, you know, Ikostone's dating
Speaker 4: and all of this kind of thing, the majority of
Speaker 4: the bulk of like articles that come up are megacreationist websites.
Speaker 5: They are really behind this thing, man, at first.
Speaker 4: And I was looking at it first, say, and again,
Speaker 4: I'm not here to diss anybody's religion or whatever. That's
Speaker 4: not the point here. But I just think it's very
Speaker 4: interesting that obviously has a a there is an agenda
Speaker 4: here in terms of like helping to bolster someone's set
Speaker 4: of beliefs. And I was reading this article on creation
Speaker 4: dot com before I realized it was on creation dot com,
Speaker 4: and it seemed very like scientifically measured talking about different methods.
Speaker 5: Of dating and stuff.
Speaker 4: And I'm not saying the stuff in here isn't necessarily accurate,
Speaker 4: but it is very much on this site that says
Speaker 4: humans and dinosaurs existed together. And that's what they're trying
Speaker 4: to prove through various means.
Speaker 5: It's interesting.
Speaker 2: I just want to see the dino movies that were
Speaker 2: created before mankind came around, Like, what kind of cinema
Speaker 2: are they making?
Speaker 5: You know, I love it.
Speaker 3: I want to see the conspiracy about a meteor landing.
Speaker 3: You know, it's crazy staggo man a media from space.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's like that movie twenty twelve. But just yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: a couple million years, hundreds of millions of years before, folks.
Speaker 3: We can't wait to hear your I love that pitch, Matt.
Speaker 3: We can't wait to hear your pitch for a dinosaur
Speaker 3: version of a movie? Right, pre human? Right? What would
Speaker 3: what what would Devil's Advocate be about if it were
Speaker 3: by dinosaurs for dinosaurs so B D f D And
Speaker 3: what would what would your favorite tropes be? What would
Speaker 3: what would your interpretation of a classic dynos cinema be? Uh?
Speaker 3: Equally as important.
Speaker 4: What kind of dinosaur would al Pacino be? Just that's
Speaker 4: just a straight up question.
Speaker 3: As specific as possible, Yes, as specific as possible. Bonus
Speaker 3: points if you base it on science. Christopher Walken as well, obviously.
Speaker 5: Hawkins a t rex because of the hands.
Speaker 3: Do you think so?
Speaker 4: I think I don't know why. I'm sorry it doesn't
Speaker 4: have weird hands, but it just hit me, just hit
Speaker 4: me that way.
Speaker 3: Also, we understand that some human actors can't really be
Speaker 3: put in a box like that. Shout out till the
Speaker 3: Swinton Gary Oldman in particular. They're just they're chameleons already.
Speaker 3: We also want to know, perhaps equally or more importantly,
Speaker 3: what other pieces of anachronistic technology should we explore in
Speaker 3: the future. Let us know. We try to be easy
Speaker 3: to find online. That's right.
Speaker 4: You can find us at the handle Conspiracy Stuff, where
Speaker 4: we exist on YouTube where we have video content galore,
Speaker 4: on x FKA, Twitter, and on.
Speaker 5: Facebook we have our Facebook group. Here's where it gets crazy.
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