WEBVTT - The Science of Change 0:00:14.916 --> 0:00:33.676 Pushkin. My research group has studied this phenomenon where at 0:00:33.676 --> 0:00:36.836 the beginning of sort of a new chapter in your life, 0:00:37.276 --> 0:00:40.156 you are more motivated and likely to make a change. 0:00:40.756 --> 0:00:43.596 That's doctor Katie Milden, author of the book had a 0:00:43.716 --> 0:00:48.116 change moments when you know, leave college and you shift 0:00:48.156 --> 0:00:51.316 identities and take on a new role, or when you 0:00:51.356 --> 0:00:55.276 become a parent. Those moments they feel like new beginnings 0:00:55.276 --> 0:00:57.916 and chapter breaks in our lives, and they free us 0:00:57.956 --> 0:01:01.396 from the baggage that we had before. A lot of 0:01:01.436 --> 0:01:06.316 people who do make big change are looking at moments 0:01:06.356 --> 0:01:10.436 that feel like breaking points and doing it. Katie Milkman's 0:01:10.436 --> 0:01:14.156 a professor of behavioral economics at the University of Pennsylvania. 0:01:14.476 --> 0:01:17.036 She's also a friend and collaborator. We got to work 0:01:17.076 --> 0:01:19.236 together on some projects when I was in the Obama 0:01:19.276 --> 0:01:22.796 White House, and she happens to be an expert on change. 0:01:23.516 --> 0:01:26.116 As you know, this show is all about how people 0:01:26.236 --> 0:01:29.636 navigate the big changes in life. We're talking swing for 0:01:29.676 --> 0:01:33.756 the fences, change your life type changes. What Katie's research 0:01:33.796 --> 0:01:36.396 has taught me over the years is that small tweaks 0:01:36.436 --> 0:01:39.996 to our mindset in daily behaviors can actually inspire big 0:01:40.116 --> 0:01:44.036 change within ourselves. I've personally been using insights from Katie's 0:01:44.036 --> 0:01:46.916 research in my own life for a while now. In 0:01:46.956 --> 0:01:49.596 this special episode, Katie and I dive deep into the 0:01:49.636 --> 0:01:52.716 science of change. I hope our conversation will leave you 0:01:52.756 --> 0:01:55.716 with some valuable tips to help your approach change differently 0:01:55.796 --> 0:01:58.876 in your own life. I'm Maya Shunker and this is 0:01:58.876 --> 0:02:22.716 a slight change of plants. Well, Katie, I was curious 0:02:22.756 --> 0:02:26.676 to know how you got into the topic of change. Honestly, 0:02:27.116 --> 0:02:29.636 I was in love with behavioral science, but it took 0:02:29.676 --> 0:02:31.636 me a little while to figure out that I wanted 0:02:31.676 --> 0:02:34.756 to focus on change. And what happened is I went 0:02:34.876 --> 0:02:38.396 to a seminar over at the med school and there's 0:02:38.396 --> 0:02:41.196 a bunch of brilliant people over there thinking about behavioral 0:02:41.196 --> 0:02:43.676 science and medicine. How can we help patients make better decisions? 0:02:43.676 --> 0:02:45.796 How can we improve the decisions of doctors as well? 0:02:46.276 --> 0:02:49.516 And I was in this seminar and a graph went up, 0:02:49.756 --> 0:02:52.156 which normally doesn't change your life, but this graph changed 0:02:52.236 --> 0:02:56.036 my life. The graph just showed a breakdown of how 0:02:56.076 --> 0:03:00.836 many premature deaths are due to different causes from accidents, 0:03:00.996 --> 0:03:08.476 to environment to daily decisions, and forty percent of premature 0:03:08.476 --> 0:03:11.476 deaths turn out to be the result of decisions that 0:03:11.516 --> 0:03:13.796 we can change on a daily basis about things like 0:03:14.116 --> 0:03:16.556 whether or not we drink or smoke, what we eat, 0:03:16.596 --> 0:03:19.636 whether or not we're physically active, we buckle our seat belts. 0:03:19.996 --> 0:03:22.716 Those kinds of decisions accumulate more than I could have 0:03:22.876 --> 0:03:25.716 ever imagined. I had just no idea of the magnitude. 0:03:25.956 --> 0:03:28.236 And when I saw that and realized, you know, the 0:03:28.276 --> 0:03:33.076 tools of behavioral science could be applied to improve health 0:03:33.116 --> 0:03:36.316 outcomes and health decisions, I could have this enormous impact. 0:03:36.316 --> 0:03:38.316 And then then I sort of started thinking, like, Okay, well, 0:03:38.316 --> 0:03:40.156 if it matters that much with health, it's sort of 0:03:40.196 --> 0:03:43.836 obvious that it would accumulate in areas like savings and 0:03:44.036 --> 0:03:47.676 education similarly, even if I've never seen an exact breakdown 0:03:48.076 --> 0:03:51.076 of that sort. So that really just got me excited 0:03:51.156 --> 0:03:53.396 about the potential to use this thing that I found 0:03:53.436 --> 0:03:58.356 so interesting, so exciting and fun to actually have an impact. 0:03:59.276 --> 0:04:02.116 So that was it for me. I'm really curious about 0:04:02.236 --> 0:04:05.716 how your journey changed, because you've had many career shifts, 0:04:05.916 --> 0:04:09.116 but you certainly went from you know, a more laboratory 0:04:09.156 --> 0:04:12.556 based focus too, you know, jumping into the White House 0:04:12.596 --> 0:04:15.996 to tackle change head on from a policy perspective, how 0:04:16.036 --> 0:04:20.156 did how did you shift? It's interesting because in my 0:04:20.236 --> 0:04:23.036 mind my big shift in life was from the violin 0:04:23.556 --> 0:04:26.596 to cognitive science. But I'm just remembering, like, oh wait, 0:04:26.636 --> 0:04:33.676 I also had this other really big shift. And I 0:04:33.716 --> 0:04:35.836 think this is true across science too, But certainly when 0:04:35.836 --> 0:04:38.036 we were working in the government, the stakes feel so 0:04:38.156 --> 0:04:41.636 high you just can't screw up because these are real 0:04:41.676 --> 0:04:44.076 people's lives and they can be affected by the work 0:04:44.116 --> 0:04:46.396 you're doing. And yeah, it's so funny. I mean, we 0:04:46.556 --> 0:04:49.156 actually worked together on some projects. Actually one of them 0:04:49.276 --> 0:04:51.676 used an insight from your book, and it was the 0:04:51.716 --> 0:04:54.396 fresh Start effect. And I'm curious if you can share 0:04:54.516 --> 0:04:56.916 what the fresh start effect is. It was very exciting 0:04:56.916 --> 0:04:59.836 at the time to have caught off the press's research 0:04:59.916 --> 0:05:03.516 coming out of your lab actually applied to a problem 0:05:03.556 --> 0:05:05.836 that we were trying to solve in the government. So 0:05:05.956 --> 0:05:09.156 my research group has studied this phenomenon where at the 0:05:09.196 --> 0:05:12.276 beginning of sort of a new chapter in your life, 0:05:12.556 --> 0:05:15.476 you are more motivated and likely to make a change. 0:05:15.796 --> 0:05:18.476 And we've often studied small changes in this context, like 0:05:18.796 --> 0:05:21.956 you go to the gym more, or you search on 0:05:22.036 --> 0:05:24.676 Google for the term diet more frequently, or you're more 0:05:24.676 --> 0:05:26.916 likely to set a goal on a goal setting website. 0:05:27.276 --> 0:05:31.596 But I also think you know where the interest in 0:05:31.636 --> 0:05:34.636 this topic came from was the realization that a lot 0:05:34.676 --> 0:05:39.076 of people who do make big change are looking at 0:05:39.196 --> 0:05:42.476 moments that feel like breaking points and doing doing it. 0:05:42.516 --> 0:05:44.916 And so I tell stories about bigger changes in my book, 0:05:45.236 --> 0:05:49.836 moments when you leave college and you shift identity is 0:05:49.916 --> 0:05:52.396 and take on a new role, or when you become 0:05:52.436 --> 0:05:55.996 a parent. Those moments they feel like new beginnings and 0:05:56.116 --> 0:05:59.116 chapter breaks in our lives, and I think they're freeing 0:05:59.196 --> 0:06:01.916 in a way. They free us from the baggage that 0:06:01.996 --> 0:06:05.476 we had before. But they can also be freeing psychologically 0:06:05.556 --> 0:06:08.436 because we feel like you're a new person. You can 0:06:08.476 --> 0:06:12.876 take on a new identity, whatever wasn't working before, whatever 0:06:13.276 --> 0:06:16.356 ambition you failed to have before you couldn't shed that, 0:06:16.556 --> 0:06:18.596 and say okay, now I can do it. So anyway, 0:06:18.676 --> 0:06:20.276 I do think we could study big change, and I 0:06:20.276 --> 0:06:22.996 actually think some of the research we've done around small 0:06:23.076 --> 0:06:26.356 change is inspired by a recognition that these might also 0:06:26.436 --> 0:06:30.356 be the triggers for big change. Was there a particular 0:06:30.436 --> 0:06:34.236 moment in your life where you felt the fresh start 0:06:34.236 --> 0:06:36.796 effect play out where it really felt like a new 0:06:36.836 --> 0:06:39.116 beginning and there was a certain set of habits or 0:06:39.156 --> 0:06:42.436 behavior changes that you witnessed. Oh my gosh. I mean, 0:06:42.476 --> 0:06:46.556 you know, I do mesearch, so totally, meaning like a 0:06:46.596 --> 0:06:49.196 lot of my research is motivated by like, oh wow, 0:06:49.236 --> 0:06:50.916 that's weird. I wonder if other people And then I 0:06:51.116 --> 0:06:54.396 asked my friends, Oh yes, me too, and then I realized, okay, 0:06:54.676 --> 0:06:57.076 like this might be this might be something we're studding. 0:06:57.756 --> 0:07:00.836 I will say one example that I love is that 0:07:01.236 --> 0:07:04.116 I realized I wanted to write this book for a 0:07:04.156 --> 0:07:09.156 long time. Finally what happened that triggered it when I 0:07:09.156 --> 0:07:12.956 actually began. My son was three years old. We decided 0:07:12.996 --> 0:07:14.476 we were going to move out of our apartment into 0:07:14.516 --> 0:07:17.116 a house. We bought the house, we signed the papers, 0:07:17.196 --> 0:07:19.316 and that day I said, you know what, I'm ready, 0:07:19.556 --> 0:07:22.636 We're moving to a new house. It's a fresh start. 0:07:22.956 --> 0:07:24.796 This is the moment and the project started from there, 0:07:24.836 --> 0:07:26.996 So that that was a big one for me. Interesting. 0:07:27.596 --> 0:07:30.116 One of the anecdotes around the fresh Start that I 0:07:30.116 --> 0:07:34.556 love the most is Obama decided that he would stop 0:07:35.276 --> 0:07:39.596 smoking for good when the Affordable Care Act passed, and 0:07:39.636 --> 0:07:42.436 I was like, wait, a next level the fresh start effects, 0:07:42.476 --> 0:07:45.956 like he truly chose a once in a lifetime experienced 0:07:45.956 --> 0:07:49.196 to anchor his commitment on. And it was like aligned on, 0:07:49.356 --> 0:07:52.196 you know, it was aligned on like a health focus. Yes, 0:07:52.316 --> 0:07:55.436 of course, of course Obama one ups all of us 0:07:55.676 --> 0:07:58.676 and does the thing in the best way imaginable. Duh. 0:07:59.316 --> 0:08:01.716 But I do love that, Like there's no other future, 0:08:01.756 --> 0:08:03.276 one of those where he can be like old. Maybe 0:08:03.276 --> 0:08:04.996 I can cave a little now because they'll be this 0:08:05.116 --> 0:08:08.716 other right the other time I passed right the other 0:08:08.716 --> 0:08:12.196 times healthcare as president. I love that, and I don't. 0:08:12.236 --> 0:08:14.516 I don't think I knew that. Actually, that's amazing. Um, 0:08:14.996 --> 0:08:17.116 have you used the fresh start effect maya, or like 0:08:17.196 --> 0:08:19.636 in hindsight? Have you ever noticed that a fresh start shifted? 0:08:19.916 --> 0:08:24.036 I have some I swear, I swear to God every 0:08:24.036 --> 0:08:26.876 Sunday I'm committing to eating healthily. It's just that there's 0:08:26.956 --> 0:08:30.596 too many damn Sundays, and so I always feel like 0:08:30.636 --> 0:08:33.236 I've gotten you fall on to give it a go. Yeah, 0:08:33.996 --> 0:08:35.636 but yeah, I mean, I think it's it's hard for 0:08:35.676 --> 0:08:39.876 so many of us to keep our resolutions. And in 0:08:39.916 --> 0:08:42.876 reading your book, it did make me think, okay, choose 0:08:42.996 --> 0:08:49.276 really remarkable milestones for pivoting, like big moves like when 0:08:49.316 --> 0:08:53.716 I moved from DC to California, getting married, big events 0:08:53.756 --> 0:08:55.836 like that, Because I do think you feel like your 0:08:55.876 --> 0:08:58.956 identity is changing a bit, and any behaviors at a 0:08:58.996 --> 0:09:01.876 company identity shifts might be more sticky, or at least 0:09:01.876 --> 0:09:03.916 they have than in my experience. I think that's right. 0:09:03.956 --> 0:09:05.636 And you get the benefit not only of the sort 0:09:05.636 --> 0:09:09.636 of psychological break and the fresh start and opening a chapter, 0:09:10.076 --> 0:09:13.116 but you also have physical change, which is so important 0:09:13.116 --> 0:09:15.956 to disrupting sort of bad habits or routines and giving 0:09:15.956 --> 0:09:18.516 you that real blank slate to build upon and say like, oh, 0:09:18.556 --> 0:09:20.516 I'm not going to go to the burrito shop every 0:09:20.596 --> 0:09:23.196 day for lunch, or you know, whatever your bad habit 0:09:23.276 --> 0:09:26.356 is that you want to kick um exactly. Yeah. I 0:09:26.396 --> 0:09:28.356 think one of my favorite insights from the book, and 0:09:28.436 --> 0:09:30.516 it's instead I've been using in my own life since 0:09:30.556 --> 0:09:34.516 I read your research years ago, is around temptation fundling. 0:09:35.396 --> 0:09:37.036 Do you mind for sharing what that is? And then 0:09:37.036 --> 0:09:40.396 I'd love to let you know how I've been using it. Yeah, yess, 0:09:40.676 --> 0:09:43.076 I want to hear about your temptation bundeling um that 0:09:43.436 --> 0:09:46.556 this is gonna be fun. So temptation. Bundling is a 0:09:46.556 --> 0:09:49.836 solution I came up with because I had two problems. 0:09:50.076 --> 0:09:52.356 Um taking you back to grad school again. I was 0:09:52.556 --> 0:09:55.516 taking all these hard engineering classes, and I was stressed out, 0:09:55.596 --> 0:09:57.956 and I'd come home after a long day of classes, 0:09:58.556 --> 0:10:01.516 and all I wanted to do was just like indulge 0:10:01.556 --> 0:10:04.516 in entertainment, right like turn on Netflix and binge watch TV, 0:10:05.476 --> 0:10:08.076 read tempting novels. So I just wanted I wanted to 0:10:08.116 --> 0:10:10.916 dive into that in a scape my reality, and I 0:10:10.916 --> 0:10:13.356 didn't want to do my problem sets. On the flip side, 0:10:13.356 --> 0:10:16.636 I also knew I should really be getting exercise. I 0:10:17.076 --> 0:10:19.996 was an athlete in college, but again when I came 0:10:20.036 --> 0:10:22.236 home from a long day, I didn't want to put 0:10:22.276 --> 0:10:24.676 on sweats and go to the gym. So these two problems, 0:10:24.716 --> 0:10:26.716 like I couldn't get myself to do my homework because 0:10:26.756 --> 0:10:29.756 I was procrastinating indulging in all this entertainment, and I 0:10:29.796 --> 0:10:31.956 couldn't get myself to exercise, And all of a sudden, 0:10:31.996 --> 0:10:34.516 I realized, like, wait a minute, what if I solved 0:10:34.556 --> 0:10:37.396 them all at once? What if I only let myself 0:10:37.916 --> 0:10:41.196 enjoy this entertainment that I love so much while I'm exercising, 0:10:41.516 --> 0:10:43.716 I'd start craving trips to the gym to find out 0:10:43.756 --> 0:10:47.036 what happens next in my latest page turner. And I 0:10:47.036 --> 0:10:49.196 would stop wasting time at home on this sort of 0:10:49.236 --> 0:10:51.876 literary garbage that normally captures my attention, and I just 0:10:51.876 --> 0:10:54.356 focus on my problem sets. And I started doing it. 0:10:54.396 --> 0:10:57.476 Was just like magic. I worked out every day. Time 0:10:57.556 --> 0:10:59.076 flew while I was at the gym because I was 0:10:59.116 --> 0:11:02.076 engrossed in Harry Potter or Alex Cross. And when I 0:11:02.116 --> 0:11:03.796 got home, I was ready to work because I'd already 0:11:03.836 --> 0:11:06.596 had my indulgence and I wasn't as stressed out. And 0:11:06.636 --> 0:11:08.996 I also realized like I could use them not only 0:11:09.276 --> 0:11:11.196 to help me exercise, but in lots of places, like 0:11:11.196 --> 0:11:14.156 if you just tie something tempting to a chore, you 0:11:14.196 --> 0:11:16.676 can magically turn it into something you look forward to 0:11:16.716 --> 0:11:19.356 and do less of that indulgent thing and feel less 0:11:19.356 --> 0:11:22.396 guilty about it. Like you know, if only you get 0:11:22.436 --> 0:11:24.636 a glass of wine while you're making a home cooked meal, 0:11:24.676 --> 0:11:26.996 or listen to your favorite podcast while you're doing chores. 0:11:27.156 --> 0:11:29.876 For all your listeners who are doing laundry right now, 0:11:29.996 --> 0:11:33.476 Katie and I are carrying you on. Go for it. Yes, 0:11:33.756 --> 0:11:35.836 your temptation bundling. You didn't know there was a name 0:11:35.836 --> 0:11:39.636 for it, Yes, exactly. Okay, So I one of my 0:11:39.716 --> 0:11:42.956 favorite things in life is discovering a new pop song 0:11:43.156 --> 0:11:46.876 that I love. And what makes me really sad is 0:11:46.876 --> 0:11:50.436 that I very quickly like it loses the spark after 0:11:50.476 --> 0:11:52.716 a certain number of listens, Like you just know you 0:11:52.836 --> 0:11:56.396 only have fifteen amazing listens with a song and before 0:11:56.556 --> 0:11:59.116 before it kind of becomes old hat, right, So as 0:11:59.116 --> 0:12:02.636 soon as I discovered an amazing song, I will only 0:12:02.676 --> 0:12:05.036 allow myself to listen to it while I'm working out 0:12:05.316 --> 0:12:07.436 from that point on. And like, I'm a really non 0:12:07.476 --> 0:12:09.716 fun wife because my husband sometimes and I will discover 0:12:09.756 --> 0:12:12.156 the song together and we'll be cooking in the evening, 0:12:12.236 --> 0:12:14.196 We'll be having fun. He's like, hey, let's play that 0:12:14.236 --> 0:12:17.516 new album by Casey Musgraves, who's one of my favorite artists. 0:12:17.716 --> 0:12:19.956 And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, you don't understand. 0:12:20.276 --> 0:12:23.756 That's only like a treadmill elliptical song because I just 0:12:23.796 --> 0:12:25.796 feel like I have to protect it and save it. 0:12:25.956 --> 0:12:27.876 But it certainly makes the work out a lot more 0:12:27.916 --> 0:12:31.716 tolerable and a little bit more exciting. So yes, I 0:12:31.756 --> 0:12:33.476 love pop music too, and I feel like we should 0:12:33.516 --> 0:12:37.956 trade some song recommendations later so we can each share. 0:12:39.076 --> 0:12:42.196 It's now very seriously tied to my exercise between In fact, 0:12:42.516 --> 0:12:45.876 the one thing that can happen is when you temptation bundle. 0:12:46.356 --> 0:12:51.196 Sometimes what can happen is the intrinsic extrinsic motivation balance 0:12:51.276 --> 0:12:54.476 gets thrown off kilter a bit. So it's like, initially 0:12:54.476 --> 0:12:57.276 I'm just using all of my internal will to go exercise, 0:12:57.276 --> 0:12:59.716 but now I've got this extrinsic motivator, which is a song. 0:13:00.076 --> 0:13:02.116 So on the rare occasion where like my headphones are 0:13:02.116 --> 0:13:04.676 out of battery or like my phone's Wi Fi is 0:13:04.716 --> 0:13:07.036 not working, I'm like, oh, I don't know if I 0:13:07.036 --> 0:13:08.716 can do this anymore. Just have to make sure your 0:13:08.716 --> 0:13:12.796 headphone are always working in your your iPhone is always 0:13:12.876 --> 0:13:18.876 charged or whatever. Yes, I'm wondering whether are for temptation bundling. 0:13:18.876 --> 0:13:22.836 You see this plate on the wild in places that 0:13:23.516 --> 0:13:27.596 were behavior change feels a little bit more serious. That's interesting. 0:13:27.796 --> 0:13:29.516 I'm trying to think if I have a great answer 0:13:29.516 --> 0:13:33.796 for you. There's a study I love of teachers who 0:13:33.836 --> 0:13:36.676 are trying to figure out how to motivate their students 0:13:37.196 --> 0:13:41.036 to do more math. Problems, which kids apparently say they 0:13:41.076 --> 0:13:43.156 like doing math about as much as they like eating broccoli. 0:13:43.196 --> 0:13:46.196 So that tells you something about how delightful it is. 0:13:46.356 --> 0:13:50.396 And math is so important to everything, as we both know. 0:13:50.996 --> 0:13:57.396 So these two researchers suggested, basically a temptation bundle. What 0:13:57.476 --> 0:13:59.836 if the kids could, you know, listen to music, have 0:13:59.956 --> 0:14:02.996 snacks markers that they like using. And they did that 0:14:03.036 --> 0:14:05.076 all on the day when they're doing their math worksheets, 0:14:06.356 --> 0:14:09.836 but not at other times. And the teachers were sort 0:14:09.836 --> 0:14:12.356 of skeptical. They were like, I think they'll focus less 0:14:12.756 --> 0:14:15.276 could so I'll be distracted. And it turned out that 0:14:15.396 --> 0:14:19.116 kids persisted longer on math when they were randomly assigned 0:14:19.116 --> 0:14:22.476 to groups that had these i'll say temptations linked with them. 0:14:23.236 --> 0:14:25.236 It's not you know, it's not changing their lives in 0:14:25.276 --> 0:14:28.276 that day. It is cumulative. But I think that that's 0:14:28.276 --> 0:14:30.796 an example of like some of the big goals we 0:14:30.836 --> 0:14:33.796 have in life, whether it's getting through your math assignments 0:14:33.876 --> 0:14:36.396 or finishing a dissertation, if you can find a way 0:14:36.436 --> 0:14:38.956 to make it more enjoyable, that really matters. I love 0:14:38.996 --> 0:14:41.756 the math example, I think for two reasons. I mean, 0:14:41.756 --> 0:14:45.396 the first is I just love any time research findings 0:14:45.476 --> 0:14:48.436 violated our expectations, you know, when the teachers are like, oh, 0:14:48.476 --> 0:14:50.436 I'm not really sure that this is a good idea, 0:14:50.556 --> 0:14:53.716 But then you're able to generate empirical data that runs 0:14:53.716 --> 0:14:57.036 counter to that hypothesis. That's wonderful because it's moving the 0:14:57.076 --> 0:15:00.556 field forward. And I think the other reason I love 0:15:00.596 --> 0:15:04.116 it is that, you know, success begets success, Passion begets passion. 0:15:04.156 --> 0:15:06.156 It's kind of one of those things where if you 0:15:06.236 --> 0:15:09.036 get a kid just through that initial period they're just 0:15:09.276 --> 0:15:12.036 learning the basics, getting over those initial super hard humps, 0:15:12.756 --> 0:15:15.836 then they might actually realize that they really like this thing, 0:15:16.156 --> 0:15:18.636 and that just becomes easier and easier and easier to 0:15:18.676 --> 0:15:22.076 do every problem from that point forward. So I do 0:15:22.236 --> 0:15:25.436 feel like it can have massive long term effects. I'm 0:15:25.476 --> 0:15:27.676 with you, And if they have positive associations with math, 0:15:27.836 --> 0:15:34.476 I mean, what more could we hope for. We'll be 0:15:34.596 --> 0:15:48.836 right back with a slight change of plans. In this episode, 0:15:48.876 --> 0:15:51.556 doctor Katie Melfin and I are talking about the science 0:15:51.556 --> 0:15:53.996 of change and the different techniques we can use to 0:15:54.036 --> 0:15:57.876 spur on that change. One technique is called a commitment device, 0:15:58.196 --> 0:16:00.476 which locks you into a plan to reach your long 0:16:00.556 --> 0:16:03.796 term goals. The key feature of a commitment device is 0:16:03.796 --> 0:16:06.356 that if you don't follow through with your plan, there's 0:16:06.396 --> 0:16:10.116 some sort of penalty in place. I remember, I'm curious 0:16:10.116 --> 0:16:12.756 if you actually remember the experience of first learning about them, 0:16:12.796 --> 0:16:15.716 because for me, it was like mind blowing how powerful 0:16:15.796 --> 0:16:18.756 they were, and actually mind blowing how few people use 0:16:18.836 --> 0:16:20.996 them given how powerful they are. But the study that 0:16:21.116 --> 0:16:24.636 I love that really I think illustrates nicely how much 0:16:24.676 --> 0:16:27.636 they can help us is a study where they partnered 0:16:27.676 --> 0:16:30.396 with a bank in the Philippines that saw low savings 0:16:30.436 --> 0:16:31.916 rates and wanted to figure out if there was a 0:16:31.956 --> 0:16:34.156 way to help people save more so they'd have the 0:16:34.196 --> 0:16:38.396 ability to have better health, have better life outcomes. Where 0:16:38.476 --> 0:16:40.636 they came up with this idea that one of the 0:16:40.676 --> 0:16:43.636 reasons people were having trouble accumulating savings balances is they 0:16:43.676 --> 0:16:46.156 were constantly tempted to dip in. They were like, they 0:16:46.156 --> 0:16:48.516 opened the bank account and then they put some money aside, 0:16:48.516 --> 0:16:51.436 but then somebody's birthday or there's a holiday, and so 0:16:51.476 --> 0:16:54.356 the money came right back out and it never accumulated. 0:16:54.436 --> 0:16:56.236 And that people said, you know, actually, I'd kind of 0:16:56.276 --> 0:16:58.396 like it if I couldn't get them money out I 0:16:58.636 --> 0:17:01.756 kind of wish I couldn't act on those impulses. So 0:17:01.796 --> 0:17:03.756 they developed this new kind of account. It was a 0:17:03.796 --> 0:17:06.836 commitment savings account. So you put money in and you 0:17:06.916 --> 0:17:09.116 are not allowed to take it out until a predetermin 0:17:09.116 --> 0:17:11.916 and date you choose or a savings goal you choose. 0:17:12.356 --> 0:17:15.276 They offered this kind of account to, you know, a 0:17:15.356 --> 0:17:18.276 random subset of customers alongside the usual account with the 0:17:18.316 --> 0:17:21.956 same interest rate, but free in and out access. They 0:17:22.316 --> 0:17:26.116 saved eighty percent more year over year than the control 0:17:26.836 --> 0:17:30.756 I mean eighty percent more savings. Right, you've studied savings 0:17:30.916 --> 0:17:34.596 like that. That's life changing. So I love that story. 0:17:34.676 --> 0:17:37.556 That's a hard commitment because when you put your money in, 0:17:37.596 --> 0:17:40.276 there is another you know, there's a third party, the 0:17:40.356 --> 0:17:43.356 bank that is saying like, you cannot have it. It 0:17:43.516 --> 0:17:45.956 is not accessible to you. I'm preventing I'm preventing you 0:17:45.956 --> 0:17:48.476 from So there's like a hard restriction on access to something. 0:17:48.556 --> 0:17:51.076 And a commitment device is something you voluntarily opt into 0:17:51.156 --> 0:17:54.196 that restricts you or penalizes you in some way if 0:17:54.196 --> 0:17:56.156 you don't achieve your goals or pursue your goals in 0:17:56.156 --> 0:17:57.996 the way you intend to. So that's a hard one 0:17:58.076 --> 0:18:01.716 because there's no fudging it. There's soft commitments in the 0:18:01.716 --> 0:18:05.716 world too, Like you know, you tell your partner or 0:18:05.836 --> 0:18:08.156 your mom you're going to do something, and then they 0:18:08.636 --> 0:18:11.276 ask them to give you a hard time if you don't. 0:18:11.556 --> 0:18:13.636 That's like a weak commitment device. You're gonna get a 0:18:13.676 --> 0:18:17.036 little You're gonna get ribbed a little bit. You're accountable 0:18:17.076 --> 0:18:19.716 to someone, but you can back out. Yeah. I also 0:18:19.716 --> 0:18:23.476 remember learning about commitment devices for the first time. Gosh, 0:18:23.516 --> 0:18:26.276 we sound like such nerds. Do you are? For you, Katie, 0:18:26.276 --> 0:18:28.476 do you remember where you were Remember the day you 0:18:28.556 --> 0:18:32.236 learned about commitment devices? I mean remember exactly where I was. 0:18:32.516 --> 0:18:34.756 I mean I'm like, yeah, I was in a classroom. 0:18:34.876 --> 0:18:40.156 My head exploded. Where were you? I was in my 0:18:40.236 --> 0:18:41.916 kitchen with my roommates, and I was reading this paper 0:18:41.916 --> 0:18:43.636 and I was like, oh, this is so exciting. The 0:18:43.676 --> 0:18:47.436 researchers ran a study in which they had people outline where, when, 0:18:47.436 --> 0:18:49.916 and how they were planning to get vaccinated. So that 0:18:50.036 --> 0:18:52.276 was my study. Oh my gosh, this is so fun. 0:18:52.316 --> 0:18:54.476 The flu shot study I'm talking about is your study. 0:18:54.516 --> 0:18:58.316 See that's awesome. Okay, well, the seminal work by doctor 0:18:58.316 --> 0:19:02.556 milkman Um so in your study. You ask people where, when, 0:19:02.596 --> 0:19:04.756 and how you're gonna go get vaccinated? Right, And I 0:19:04.796 --> 0:19:06.516 think what was so studying to me is like you, 0:19:06.716 --> 0:19:08.156 so you write down this forum. You know, I maya 0:19:08.396 --> 0:19:11.076 nine am after or I drop off my husband at 0:19:11.076 --> 0:19:13.356 work and I go pick up my groceries. I'm going 0:19:13.396 --> 0:19:15.236 to go to the CBS can get my flu vaccine. 0:19:15.356 --> 0:19:18.396 And what was astonishing to me is that it significantly 0:19:18.436 --> 0:19:22.956 increased the vaccination rate despite the fact that you weren't 0:19:22.996 --> 0:19:26.476 accountable to anyone, right in this intervention. You were not 0:19:26.556 --> 0:19:29.196 required to send the letter back to anyone, No one 0:19:29.316 --> 0:19:32.236 was on your case. You were literally just planning it 0:19:32.236 --> 0:19:35.916 out for yourself, and that was enough to significantly drive 0:19:35.956 --> 0:19:37.996 the numbers up, which to me again was such an 0:19:37.996 --> 0:19:43.316 extraordinary lightlift, low cost intervention that could potentially save people's lives. 0:19:43.716 --> 0:19:45.836 And in your book you talk about the fact that 0:19:46.596 --> 0:19:49.436 we all have a fairly maybe not everyone, but many 0:19:49.476 --> 0:19:52.636 people have a very high view of themselves, so they 0:19:52.756 --> 0:19:57.116 feel like they might not benefit that much from commitment devices. 0:19:57.316 --> 0:20:01.516 And you know, we can be very over optimistic about 0:20:01.556 --> 0:20:04.956 our ability to use willpower to avoid temptation. And I'm 0:20:04.956 --> 0:20:07.356 wondering if you have any thoughts or advice for helping 0:20:07.396 --> 0:20:11.116 people overcome this over confidence so that they can achieve 0:20:11.156 --> 0:20:15.236 their goals. Yeah, it's funny. Optimism is a really good thing, 0:20:15.476 --> 0:20:18.876 but in this particular case, it plays tricks on us 0:20:18.916 --> 0:20:23.396 that are problematic because we don't in general persevere as 0:20:23.516 --> 0:20:26.596 much as we think we will, and we do tend 0:20:26.596 --> 0:20:32.276 to be present biased, right, so we dramatically overweight whatever 0:20:32.636 --> 0:20:35.716 value will get from something instantaneously rather than the long 0:20:35.836 --> 0:20:38.756 term value. So you know, I can buy a present 0:20:38.916 --> 0:20:41.436 right now for myself, or I can put money in savings. 0:20:41.796 --> 0:20:43.516 I'll take the present even if that's not really good 0:20:43.516 --> 0:20:45.756 for me in the long run. And if we don't 0:20:45.796 --> 0:20:48.836 appreciate that, this disconnect keeps happening, and we think we'll 0:20:48.836 --> 0:20:51.396 just barrel through and do what's in our long term 0:20:51.396 --> 0:20:54.836 best interests, we don't choose to use commitment devices because 0:20:54.836 --> 0:20:57.916 we don't recognize this challenge. So I think it's a 0:20:57.916 --> 0:21:01.236 really tough nut to crack. And for me, the big 0:21:01.316 --> 0:21:04.516 thing was sort of seeing the data and seeing here's 0:21:04.556 --> 0:21:07.116 the evidence if you see it with your own eyes 0:21:07.116 --> 0:21:09.596 and you see how powerful these tools are, how often 0:21:09.636 --> 0:21:11.436 we do stumble even though we think we'll be able 0:21:11.436 --> 0:21:13.876 to push through. Maybe that evidence will be enough to 0:21:14.716 --> 0:21:18.356 get people to recognize this can be a really potent approach. 0:21:19.316 --> 0:21:22.956 You have lots of colorful anecdotes sprinkled throughout of real 0:21:22.956 --> 0:21:26.756 people who are facing these challenges and using these behavioral 0:21:26.756 --> 0:21:29.156 tricks of the trade. And I do feel like in 0:21:29.196 --> 0:21:32.356 many ways you're wielding the power of social norms by saying, Hey, 0:21:32.396 --> 0:21:34.356 at least here's a collection of people who are willing 0:21:34.636 --> 0:21:38.476 to acknowledge that they may be a bit overconfident about 0:21:38.516 --> 0:21:42.156 their ability to use, for example, willpower to achieve their goals, 0:21:42.156 --> 0:21:45.036 and they're open to using some of these strategies. So 0:21:45.196 --> 0:21:48.036 maybe there could be a positive norm effect that comes 0:21:48.036 --> 0:21:50.676