1 00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:33,676 Speaker 1: Pushkin. My research group has studied this phenomenon where at 2 00:00:33,676 --> 00:00:36,836 Speaker 1: the beginning of sort of a new chapter in your life, 3 00:00:37,276 --> 00:00:40,156 Speaker 1: you are more motivated and likely to make a change. 4 00:00:40,756 --> 00:00:43,596 Speaker 1: That's doctor Katie Milden, author of the book had a 5 00:00:43,716 --> 00:00:48,116 Speaker 1: change moments when you know, leave college and you shift 6 00:00:48,156 --> 00:00:51,316 Speaker 1: identities and take on a new role, or when you 7 00:00:51,356 --> 00:00:55,276 Speaker 1: become a parent. Those moments they feel like new beginnings 8 00:00:55,276 --> 00:00:57,916 Speaker 1: and chapter breaks in our lives, and they free us 9 00:00:57,956 --> 00:01:01,396 Speaker 1: from the baggage that we had before. A lot of 10 00:01:01,436 --> 00:01:06,316 Speaker 1: people who do make big change are looking at moments 11 00:01:06,356 --> 00:01:10,436 Speaker 1: that feel like breaking points and doing it. Katie Milkman's 12 00:01:10,436 --> 00:01:14,156 Speaker 1: a professor of behavioral economics at the University of Pennsylvania. 13 00:01:14,476 --> 00:01:17,036 Speaker 1: She's also a friend and collaborator. We got to work 14 00:01:17,076 --> 00:01:19,236 Speaker 1: together on some projects when I was in the Obama 15 00:01:19,276 --> 00:01:22,796 Speaker 1: White House, and she happens to be an expert on change. 16 00:01:23,516 --> 00:01:26,116 Speaker 1: As you know, this show is all about how people 17 00:01:26,236 --> 00:01:29,636 Speaker 1: navigate the big changes in life. We're talking swing for 18 00:01:29,676 --> 00:01:33,756 Speaker 1: the fences, change your life type changes. What Katie's research 19 00:01:33,796 --> 00:01:36,396 Speaker 1: has taught me over the years is that small tweaks 20 00:01:36,436 --> 00:01:39,996 Speaker 1: to our mindset in daily behaviors can actually inspire big 21 00:01:40,116 --> 00:01:44,036 Speaker 1: change within ourselves. I've personally been using insights from Katie's 22 00:01:44,036 --> 00:01:46,916 Speaker 1: research in my own life for a while now. In 23 00:01:46,956 --> 00:01:49,596 Speaker 1: this special episode, Katie and I dive deep into the 24 00:01:49,636 --> 00:01:52,716 Speaker 1: science of change. I hope our conversation will leave you 25 00:01:52,756 --> 00:01:55,716 Speaker 1: with some valuable tips to help your approach change differently 26 00:01:55,796 --> 00:01:58,876 Speaker 1: in your own life. I'm Maya Shunker and this is 27 00:01:58,876 --> 00:02:22,716 Speaker 1: a slight change of plants. Well, Katie, I was curious 28 00:02:22,756 --> 00:02:26,676 Speaker 1: to know how you got into the topic of change. Honestly, 29 00:02:27,116 --> 00:02:29,636 Speaker 1: I was in love with behavioral science, but it took 30 00:02:29,676 --> 00:02:31,636 Speaker 1: me a little while to figure out that I wanted 31 00:02:31,676 --> 00:02:34,756 Speaker 1: to focus on change. And what happened is I went 32 00:02:34,876 --> 00:02:38,396 Speaker 1: to a seminar over at the med school and there's 33 00:02:38,396 --> 00:02:41,196 Speaker 1: a bunch of brilliant people over there thinking about behavioral 34 00:02:41,196 --> 00:02:43,676 Speaker 1: science and medicine. How can we help patients make better decisions? 35 00:02:43,676 --> 00:02:45,796 Speaker 1: How can we improve the decisions of doctors as well? 36 00:02:46,276 --> 00:02:49,516 Speaker 1: And I was in this seminar and a graph went up, 37 00:02:49,756 --> 00:02:52,156 Speaker 1: which normally doesn't change your life, but this graph changed 38 00:02:52,236 --> 00:02:56,036 Speaker 1: my life. The graph just showed a breakdown of how 39 00:02:56,076 --> 00:03:00,836 Speaker 1: many premature deaths are due to different causes from accidents, 40 00:03:00,996 --> 00:03:08,476 Speaker 1: to environment to daily decisions, and forty percent of premature 41 00:03:08,476 --> 00:03:11,476 Speaker 1: deaths turn out to be the result of decisions that 42 00:03:11,516 --> 00:03:13,796 Speaker 1: we can change on a daily basis about things like 43 00:03:14,116 --> 00:03:16,556 Speaker 1: whether or not we drink or smoke, what we eat, 44 00:03:16,596 --> 00:03:19,636 Speaker 1: whether or not we're physically active, we buckle our seat belts. 45 00:03:19,996 --> 00:03:22,716 Speaker 1: Those kinds of decisions accumulate more than I could have 46 00:03:22,876 --> 00:03:25,716 Speaker 1: ever imagined. I had just no idea of the magnitude. 47 00:03:25,956 --> 00:03:28,236 Speaker 1: And when I saw that and realized, you know, the 48 00:03:28,276 --> 00:03:33,076 Speaker 1: tools of behavioral science could be applied to improve health 49 00:03:33,116 --> 00:03:36,316 Speaker 1: outcomes and health decisions, I could have this enormous impact. 50 00:03:36,316 --> 00:03:38,316 Speaker 1: And then then I sort of started thinking, like, Okay, well, 51 00:03:38,316 --> 00:03:40,156 Speaker 1: if it matters that much with health, it's sort of 52 00:03:40,196 --> 00:03:43,836 Speaker 1: obvious that it would accumulate in areas like savings and 53 00:03:44,036 --> 00:03:47,676 Speaker 1: education similarly, even if I've never seen an exact breakdown 54 00:03:48,076 --> 00:03:51,076 Speaker 1: of that sort. So that really just got me excited 55 00:03:51,156 --> 00:03:53,396 Speaker 1: about the potential to use this thing that I found 56 00:03:53,436 --> 00:03:58,356 Speaker 1: so interesting, so exciting and fun to actually have an impact. 57 00:03:59,276 --> 00:04:02,116 Speaker 1: So that was it for me. I'm really curious about 58 00:04:02,236 --> 00:04:05,716 Speaker 1: how your journey changed, because you've had many career shifts, 59 00:04:05,916 --> 00:04:09,116 Speaker 1: but you certainly went from you know, a more laboratory 60 00:04:09,156 --> 00:04:12,556 Speaker 1: based focus too, you know, jumping into the White House 61 00:04:12,596 --> 00:04:15,996 Speaker 1: to tackle change head on from a policy perspective, how 62 00:04:16,036 --> 00:04:20,156 Speaker 1: did how did you shift? It's interesting because in my 63 00:04:20,236 --> 00:04:23,036 Speaker 1: mind my big shift in life was from the violin 64 00:04:23,556 --> 00:04:26,596 Speaker 1: to cognitive science. But I'm just remembering, like, oh wait, 65 00:04:26,636 --> 00:04:33,676 Speaker 1: I also had this other really big shift. And I 66 00:04:33,716 --> 00:04:35,836 Speaker 1: think this is true across science too, But certainly when 67 00:04:35,836 --> 00:04:38,036 Speaker 1: we were working in the government, the stakes feel so 68 00:04:38,156 --> 00:04:41,636 Speaker 1: high you just can't screw up because these are real 69 00:04:41,676 --> 00:04:44,076 Speaker 1: people's lives and they can be affected by the work 70 00:04:44,116 --> 00:04:46,396 Speaker 1: you're doing. And yeah, it's so funny. I mean, we 71 00:04:46,556 --> 00:04:49,156 Speaker 1: actually worked together on some projects. Actually one of them 72 00:04:49,276 --> 00:04:51,676 Speaker 1: used an insight from your book, and it was the 73 00:04:51,716 --> 00:04:54,396 Speaker 1: fresh Start effect. And I'm curious if you can share 74 00:04:54,516 --> 00:04:56,916 Speaker 1: what the fresh start effect is. It was very exciting 75 00:04:56,916 --> 00:04:59,836 Speaker 1: at the time to have caught off the press's research 76 00:04:59,916 --> 00:05:03,516 Speaker 1: coming out of your lab actually applied to a problem 77 00:05:03,556 --> 00:05:05,836 Speaker 1: that we were trying to solve in the government. So 78 00:05:05,956 --> 00:05:09,156 Speaker 1: my research group has studied this phenomenon where at the 79 00:05:09,196 --> 00:05:12,276 Speaker 1: beginning of sort of a new chapter in your life, 80 00:05:12,556 --> 00:05:15,476 Speaker 1: you are more motivated and likely to make a change. 81 00:05:15,796 --> 00:05:18,476 Speaker 1: And we've often studied small changes in this context, like 82 00:05:18,796 --> 00:05:21,956 Speaker 1: you go to the gym more, or you search on 83 00:05:22,036 --> 00:05:24,676 Speaker 1: Google for the term diet more frequently, or you're more 84 00:05:24,676 --> 00:05:26,916 Speaker 1: likely to set a goal on a goal setting website. 85 00:05:27,276 --> 00:05:31,596 Speaker 1: But I also think you know where the interest in 86 00:05:31,636 --> 00:05:34,636 Speaker 1: this topic came from was the realization that a lot 87 00:05:34,676 --> 00:05:39,076 Speaker 1: of people who do make big change are looking at 88 00:05:39,196 --> 00:05:42,476 Speaker 1: moments that feel like breaking points and doing doing it. 89 00:05:42,516 --> 00:05:44,916 Speaker 1: And so I tell stories about bigger changes in my book, 90 00:05:45,236 --> 00:05:49,836 Speaker 1: moments when you leave college and you shift identity is 91 00:05:49,916 --> 00:05:52,396 Speaker 1: and take on a new role, or when you become 92 00:05:52,436 --> 00:05:55,996 Speaker 1: a parent. Those moments they feel like new beginnings and 93 00:05:56,116 --> 00:05:59,116 Speaker 1: chapter breaks in our lives, and I think they're freeing 94 00:05:59,196 --> 00:06:01,916 Speaker 1: in a way. They free us from the baggage that 95 00:06:01,996 --> 00:06:05,476 Speaker 1: we had before. But they can also be freeing psychologically 96 00:06:05,556 --> 00:06:08,436 Speaker 1: because we feel like you're a new person. You can 97 00:06:08,476 --> 00:06:12,876 Speaker 1: take on a new identity, whatever wasn't working before, whatever 98 00:06:13,276 --> 00:06:16,356 Speaker 1: ambition you failed to have before you couldn't shed that, 99 00:06:16,556 --> 00:06:18,596 Speaker 1: and say okay, now I can do it. So anyway, 100 00:06:18,676 --> 00:06:20,276 Speaker 1: I do think we could study big change, and I 101 00:06:20,276 --> 00:06:22,996 Speaker 1: actually think some of the research we've done around small 102 00:06:23,076 --> 00:06:26,356 Speaker 1: change is inspired by a recognition that these might also 103 00:06:26,436 --> 00:06:30,356 Speaker 1: be the triggers for big change. Was there a particular 104 00:06:30,436 --> 00:06:34,236 Speaker 1: moment in your life where you felt the fresh start 105 00:06:34,236 --> 00:06:36,796 Speaker 1: effect play out where it really felt like a new 106 00:06:36,836 --> 00:06:39,116 Speaker 1: beginning and there was a certain set of habits or 107 00:06:39,156 --> 00:06:42,436 Speaker 1: behavior changes that you witnessed. Oh my gosh. I mean, 108 00:06:42,476 --> 00:06:46,556 Speaker 1: you know, I do mesearch, so totally, meaning like a 109 00:06:46,596 --> 00:06:49,196 Speaker 1: lot of my research is motivated by like, oh wow, 110 00:06:49,236 --> 00:06:50,916 Speaker 1: that's weird. I wonder if other people And then I 111 00:06:51,116 --> 00:06:54,396 Speaker 1: asked my friends, Oh yes, me too, and then I realized, okay, 112 00:06:54,676 --> 00:06:57,076 Speaker 1: like this might be this might be something we're studding. 113 00:06:57,756 --> 00:07:00,836 Speaker 1: I will say one example that I love is that 114 00:07:01,236 --> 00:07:04,116 Speaker 1: I realized I wanted to write this book for a 115 00:07:04,156 --> 00:07:09,156 Speaker 1: long time. Finally what happened that triggered it when I 116 00:07:09,156 --> 00:07:12,956 Speaker 1: actually began. My son was three years old. We decided 117 00:07:12,996 --> 00:07:14,476 Speaker 1: we were going to move out of our apartment into 118 00:07:14,516 --> 00:07:17,116 Speaker 1: a house. We bought the house, we signed the papers, 119 00:07:17,196 --> 00:07:19,316 Speaker 1: and that day I said, you know what, I'm ready, 120 00:07:19,556 --> 00:07:22,636 Speaker 1: We're moving to a new house. It's a fresh start. 121 00:07:22,956 --> 00:07:24,796 Speaker 1: This is the moment and the project started from there, 122 00:07:24,836 --> 00:07:26,996 Speaker 1: So that that was a big one for me. Interesting. 123 00:07:27,596 --> 00:07:30,116 Speaker 1: One of the anecdotes around the fresh Start that I 124 00:07:30,116 --> 00:07:34,556 Speaker 1: love the most is Obama decided that he would stop 125 00:07:35,276 --> 00:07:39,596 Speaker 1: smoking for good when the Affordable Care Act passed, and 126 00:07:39,636 --> 00:07:42,436 Speaker 1: I was like, wait, a next level the fresh start effects, 127 00:07:42,476 --> 00:07:45,956 Speaker 1: like he truly chose a once in a lifetime experienced 128 00:07:45,956 --> 00:07:49,196 Speaker 1: to anchor his commitment on. And it was like aligned on, 129 00:07:49,356 --> 00:07:52,196 Speaker 1: you know, it was aligned on like a health focus. Yes, 130 00:07:52,316 --> 00:07:55,436 Speaker 1: of course, of course Obama one ups all of us 131 00:07:55,676 --> 00:07:58,676 Speaker 1: and does the thing in the best way imaginable. Duh. 132 00:07:59,316 --> 00:08:01,716 Speaker 1: But I do love that, Like there's no other future, 133 00:08:01,756 --> 00:08:03,276 Speaker 1: one of those where he can be like old. Maybe 134 00:08:03,276 --> 00:08:04,996 Speaker 1: I can cave a little now because they'll be this 135 00:08:05,116 --> 00:08:08,716 Speaker 1: other right the other time I passed right the other 136 00:08:08,716 --> 00:08:12,196 Speaker 1: times healthcare as president. I love that, and I don't. 137 00:08:12,236 --> 00:08:14,516 Speaker 1: I don't think I knew that. Actually, that's amazing. Um, 138 00:08:14,996 --> 00:08:17,116 Speaker 1: have you used the fresh start effect maya, or like 139 00:08:17,196 --> 00:08:19,636 Speaker 1: in hindsight? Have you ever noticed that a fresh start shifted? 140 00:08:19,916 --> 00:08:24,036 Speaker 1: I have some I swear, I swear to God every 141 00:08:24,036 --> 00:08:26,876 Speaker 1: Sunday I'm committing to eating healthily. It's just that there's 142 00:08:26,956 --> 00:08:30,596 Speaker 1: too many damn Sundays, and so I always feel like 143 00:08:30,636 --> 00:08:33,236 Speaker 1: I've gotten you fall on to give it a go. Yeah, 144 00:08:33,996 --> 00:08:35,636 Speaker 1: but yeah, I mean, I think it's it's hard for 145 00:08:35,676 --> 00:08:39,876 Speaker 1: so many of us to keep our resolutions. And in 146 00:08:39,916 --> 00:08:42,876 Speaker 1: reading your book, it did make me think, okay, choose 147 00:08:42,996 --> 00:08:49,276 Speaker 1: really remarkable milestones for pivoting, like big moves like when 148 00:08:49,316 --> 00:08:53,716 Speaker 1: I moved from DC to California, getting married, big events 149 00:08:53,756 --> 00:08:55,836 Speaker 1: like that, Because I do think you feel like your 150 00:08:55,876 --> 00:08:58,956 Speaker 1: identity is changing a bit, and any behaviors at a 151 00:08:58,996 --> 00:09:01,876 Speaker 1: company identity shifts might be more sticky, or at least 152 00:09:01,876 --> 00:09:03,916 Speaker 1: they have than in my experience. I think that's right. 153 00:09:03,956 --> 00:09:05,636 Speaker 1: And you get the benefit not only of the sort 154 00:09:05,636 --> 00:09:09,636 Speaker 1: of psychological break and the fresh start and opening a chapter, 155 00:09:10,076 --> 00:09:13,116 Speaker 1: but you also have physical change, which is so important 156 00:09:13,116 --> 00:09:15,956 Speaker 1: to disrupting sort of bad habits or routines and giving 157 00:09:15,956 --> 00:09:18,516 Speaker 1: you that real blank slate to build upon and say like, oh, 158 00:09:18,556 --> 00:09:20,516 Speaker 1: I'm not going to go to the burrito shop every 159 00:09:20,596 --> 00:09:23,196 Speaker 1: day for lunch, or you know, whatever your bad habit 160 00:09:23,276 --> 00:09:26,356 Speaker 1: is that you want to kick um exactly. Yeah. I 161 00:09:26,396 --> 00:09:28,356 Speaker 1: think one of my favorite insights from the book, and 162 00:09:28,436 --> 00:09:30,516 Speaker 1: it's instead I've been using in my own life since 163 00:09:30,556 --> 00:09:34,516 Speaker 1: I read your research years ago, is around temptation fundling. 164 00:09:35,396 --> 00:09:37,036 Speaker 1: Do you mind for sharing what that is? And then 165 00:09:37,036 --> 00:09:40,396 Speaker 1: I'd love to let you know how I've been using it. Yeah, yess, 166 00:09:40,676 --> 00:09:43,076 Speaker 1: I want to hear about your temptation bundeling um that 167 00:09:43,436 --> 00:09:46,556 Speaker 1: this is gonna be fun. So temptation. Bundling is a 168 00:09:46,556 --> 00:09:49,836 Speaker 1: solution I came up with because I had two problems. 169 00:09:50,076 --> 00:09:52,356 Speaker 1: Um taking you back to grad school again. I was 170 00:09:52,556 --> 00:09:55,516 Speaker 1: taking all these hard engineering classes, and I was stressed out, 171 00:09:55,596 --> 00:09:57,956 Speaker 1: and I'd come home after a long day of classes, 172 00:09:58,556 --> 00:10:01,516 Speaker 1: and all I wanted to do was just like indulge 173 00:10:01,556 --> 00:10:04,516 Speaker 1: in entertainment, right like turn on Netflix and binge watch TV, 174 00:10:05,476 --> 00:10:08,076 Speaker 1: read tempting novels. So I just wanted I wanted to 175 00:10:08,116 --> 00:10:10,916 Speaker 1: dive into that in a scape my reality, and I 176 00:10:10,916 --> 00:10:13,356 Speaker 1: didn't want to do my problem sets. On the flip side, 177 00:10:13,356 --> 00:10:16,636 Speaker 1: I also knew I should really be getting exercise. I 178 00:10:17,076 --> 00:10:19,996 Speaker 1: was an athlete in college, but again when I came 179 00:10:20,036 --> 00:10:22,236 Speaker 1: home from a long day, I didn't want to put 180 00:10:22,276 --> 00:10:24,676 Speaker 1: on sweats and go to the gym. So these two problems, 181 00:10:24,716 --> 00:10:26,716 Speaker 1: like I couldn't get myself to do my homework because 182 00:10:26,756 --> 00:10:29,756 Speaker 1: I was procrastinating indulging in all this entertainment, and I 183 00:10:29,796 --> 00:10:31,956 Speaker 1: couldn't get myself to exercise, And all of a sudden, 184 00:10:31,996 --> 00:10:34,516 Speaker 1: I realized, like, wait a minute, what if I solved 185 00:10:34,556 --> 00:10:37,396 Speaker 1: them all at once? What if I only let myself 186 00:10:37,916 --> 00:10:41,196 Speaker 1: enjoy this entertainment that I love so much while I'm exercising, 187 00:10:41,516 --> 00:10:43,716 Speaker 1: I'd start craving trips to the gym to find out 188 00:10:43,756 --> 00:10:47,036 Speaker 1: what happens next in my latest page turner. And I 189 00:10:47,036 --> 00:10:49,196 Speaker 1: would stop wasting time at home on this sort of 190 00:10:49,236 --> 00:10:51,876 Speaker 1: literary garbage that normally captures my attention, and I just 191 00:10:51,876 --> 00:10:54,356 Speaker 1: focus on my problem sets. And I started doing it. 192 00:10:54,396 --> 00:10:57,476 Speaker 1: Was just like magic. I worked out every day. Time 193 00:10:57,556 --> 00:10:59,076 Speaker 1: flew while I was at the gym because I was 194 00:10:59,116 --> 00:11:02,076 Speaker 1: engrossed in Harry Potter or Alex Cross. And when I 195 00:11:02,116 --> 00:11:03,796 Speaker 1: got home, I was ready to work because I'd already 196 00:11:03,836 --> 00:11:06,596 Speaker 1: had my indulgence and I wasn't as stressed out. And 197 00:11:06,636 --> 00:11:08,996 Speaker 1: I also realized like I could use them not only 198 00:11:09,276 --> 00:11:11,196 Speaker 1: to help me exercise, but in lots of places, like 199 00:11:11,196 --> 00:11:14,156 Speaker 1: if you just tie something tempting to a chore, you 200 00:11:14,196 --> 00:11:16,676 Speaker 1: can magically turn it into something you look forward to 201 00:11:16,716 --> 00:11:19,356 Speaker 1: and do less of that indulgent thing and feel less 202 00:11:19,356 --> 00:11:22,396 Speaker 1: guilty about it. Like you know, if only you get 203 00:11:22,436 --> 00:11:24,636 Speaker 1: a glass of wine while you're making a home cooked meal, 204 00:11:24,676 --> 00:11:26,996 Speaker 1: or listen to your favorite podcast while you're doing chores. 205 00:11:27,156 --> 00:11:29,876 Speaker 1: For all your listeners who are doing laundry right now, 206 00:11:29,996 --> 00:11:33,476 Speaker 1: Katie and I are carrying you on. Go for it. Yes, 207 00:11:33,756 --> 00:11:35,836 Speaker 1: your temptation bundling. You didn't know there was a name 208 00:11:35,836 --> 00:11:39,636 Speaker 1: for it, Yes, exactly. Okay, So I one of my 209 00:11:39,716 --> 00:11:42,956 Speaker 1: favorite things in life is discovering a new pop song 210 00:11:43,156 --> 00:11:46,876 Speaker 1: that I love. And what makes me really sad is 211 00:11:46,876 --> 00:11:50,436 Speaker 1: that I very quickly like it loses the spark after 212 00:11:50,476 --> 00:11:52,716 Speaker 1: a certain number of listens, Like you just know you 213 00:11:52,836 --> 00:11:56,396 Speaker 1: only have fifteen amazing listens with a song and before 214 00:11:56,556 --> 00:11:59,116 Speaker 1: before it kind of becomes old hat, right, So as 215 00:11:59,116 --> 00:12:02,636 Speaker 1: soon as I discovered an amazing song, I will only 216 00:12:02,676 --> 00:12:05,036 Speaker 1: allow myself to listen to it while I'm working out 217 00:12:05,316 --> 00:12:07,436 Speaker 1: from that point on. And like, I'm a really non 218 00:12:07,476 --> 00:12:09,716 Speaker 1: fun wife because my husband sometimes and I will discover 219 00:12:09,756 --> 00:12:12,156 Speaker 1: the song together and we'll be cooking in the evening, 220 00:12:12,236 --> 00:12:14,196 Speaker 1: We'll be having fun. He's like, hey, let's play that 221 00:12:14,236 --> 00:12:17,516 Speaker 1: new album by Casey Musgraves, who's one of my favorite artists. 222 00:12:17,716 --> 00:12:19,956 Speaker 1: And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, you don't understand. 223 00:12:20,276 --> 00:12:23,756 Speaker 1: That's only like a treadmill elliptical song because I just 224 00:12:23,796 --> 00:12:25,796 Speaker 1: feel like I have to protect it and save it. 225 00:12:25,956 --> 00:12:27,876 Speaker 1: But it certainly makes the work out a lot more 226 00:12:27,916 --> 00:12:31,716 Speaker 1: tolerable and a little bit more exciting. So yes, I 227 00:12:31,756 --> 00:12:33,476 Speaker 1: love pop music too, and I feel like we should 228 00:12:33,516 --> 00:12:37,956 Speaker 1: trade some song recommendations later so we can each share. 229 00:12:39,076 --> 00:12:42,196 Speaker 1: It's now very seriously tied to my exercise between In fact, 230 00:12:42,516 --> 00:12:45,876 Speaker 1: the one thing that can happen is when you temptation bundle. 231 00:12:46,356 --> 00:12:51,196 Speaker 1: Sometimes what can happen is the intrinsic extrinsic motivation balance 232 00:12:51,276 --> 00:12:54,476 Speaker 1: gets thrown off kilter a bit. So it's like, initially 233 00:12:54,476 --> 00:12:57,276 Speaker 1: I'm just using all of my internal will to go exercise, 234 00:12:57,276 --> 00:12:59,716 Speaker 1: but now I've got this extrinsic motivator, which is a song. 235 00:13:00,076 --> 00:13:02,116 Speaker 1: So on the rare occasion where like my headphones are 236 00:13:02,116 --> 00:13:04,676 Speaker 1: out of battery or like my phone's Wi Fi is 237 00:13:04,716 --> 00:13:07,036 Speaker 1: not working, I'm like, oh, I don't know if I 238 00:13:07,036 --> 00:13:08,716 Speaker 1: can do this anymore. Just have to make sure your 239 00:13:08,716 --> 00:13:12,796 Speaker 1: headphone are always working in your your iPhone is always 240 00:13:12,876 --> 00:13:18,876 Speaker 1: charged or whatever. Yes, I'm wondering whether are for temptation bundling. 241 00:13:18,876 --> 00:13:22,836 Speaker 1: You see this plate on the wild in places that 242 00:13:23,516 --> 00:13:27,596 Speaker 1: were behavior change feels a little bit more serious. That's interesting. 243 00:13:27,796 --> 00:13:29,516 Speaker 1: I'm trying to think if I have a great answer 244 00:13:29,516 --> 00:13:33,796 Speaker 1: for you. There's a study I love of teachers who 245 00:13:33,836 --> 00:13:36,676 Speaker 1: are trying to figure out how to motivate their students 246 00:13:37,196 --> 00:13:41,036 Speaker 1: to do more math. Problems, which kids apparently say they 247 00:13:41,076 --> 00:13:43,156 Speaker 1: like doing math about as much as they like eating broccoli. 248 00:13:43,196 --> 00:13:46,196 Speaker 1: So that tells you something about how delightful it is. 249 00:13:46,356 --> 00:13:50,396 Speaker 1: And math is so important to everything, as we both know. 250 00:13:50,996 --> 00:13:57,396 Speaker 1: So these two researchers suggested, basically a temptation bundle. What 251 00:13:57,476 --> 00:13:59,836 Speaker 1: if the kids could, you know, listen to music, have 252 00:13:59,956 --> 00:14:02,996 Speaker 1: snacks markers that they like using. And they did that 253 00:14:03,036 --> 00:14:05,076 Speaker 1: all on the day when they're doing their math worksheets, 254 00:14:06,356 --> 00:14:09,836 Speaker 1: but not at other times. And the teachers were sort 255 00:14:09,836 --> 00:14:12,356 Speaker 1: of skeptical. They were like, I think they'll focus less 256 00:14:12,756 --> 00:14:15,276 Speaker 1: could so I'll be distracted. And it turned out that 257 00:14:15,396 --> 00:14:19,116 Speaker 1: kids persisted longer on math when they were randomly assigned 258 00:14:19,116 --> 00:14:22,476 Speaker 1: to groups that had these i'll say temptations linked with them. 259 00:14:23,236 --> 00:14:25,236 Speaker 1: It's not you know, it's not changing their lives in 260 00:14:25,276 --> 00:14:28,276 Speaker 1: that day. It is cumulative. But I think that that's 261 00:14:28,276 --> 00:14:30,796 Speaker 1: an example of like some of the big goals we 262 00:14:30,836 --> 00:14:33,796 Speaker 1: have in life, whether it's getting through your math assignments 263 00:14:33,876 --> 00:14:36,396 Speaker 1: or finishing a dissertation, if you can find a way 264 00:14:36,436 --> 00:14:38,956 Speaker 1: to make it more enjoyable, that really matters. I love 265 00:14:38,996 --> 00:14:41,756 Speaker 1: the math example, I think for two reasons. I mean, 266 00:14:41,756 --> 00:14:45,396 Speaker 1: the first is I just love any time research findings 267 00:14:45,476 --> 00:14:48,436 Speaker 1: violated our expectations, you know, when the teachers are like, oh, 268 00:14:48,476 --> 00:14:50,436 Speaker 1: I'm not really sure that this is a good idea, 269 00:14:50,556 --> 00:14:53,716 Speaker 1: But then you're able to generate empirical data that runs 270 00:14:53,716 --> 00:14:57,036 Speaker 1: counter to that hypothesis. That's wonderful because it's moving the 271 00:14:57,076 --> 00:15:00,556 Speaker 1: field forward. And I think the other reason I love 272 00:15:00,596 --> 00:15:04,116 Speaker 1: it is that, you know, success begets success, Passion begets passion. 273 00:15:04,156 --> 00:15:06,156 Speaker 1: It's kind of one of those things where if you 274 00:15:06,236 --> 00:15:09,036 Speaker 1: get a kid just through that initial period they're just 275 00:15:09,276 --> 00:15:12,036 Speaker 1: learning the basics, getting over those initial super hard humps, 276 00:15:12,756 --> 00:15:15,836 Speaker 1: then they might actually realize that they really like this thing, 277 00:15:16,156 --> 00:15:18,636 Speaker 1: and that just becomes easier and easier and easier to 278 00:15:18,676 --> 00:15:22,076 Speaker 1: do every problem from that point forward. So I do 279 00:15:22,236 --> 00:15:25,436 Speaker 1: feel like it can have massive long term effects. I'm 280 00:15:25,476 --> 00:15:27,676 Speaker 1: with you, And if they have positive associations with math, 281 00:15:27,836 --> 00:15:34,476 Speaker 1: I mean, what more could we hope for. We'll be 282 00:15:34,596 --> 00:15:48,836 Speaker 1: right back with a slight change of plans. In this episode, 283 00:15:48,876 --> 00:15:51,556 Speaker 1: doctor Katie Melfin and I are talking about the science 284 00:15:51,556 --> 00:15:53,996 Speaker 1: of change and the different techniques we can use to 285 00:15:54,036 --> 00:15:57,876 Speaker 1: spur on that change. One technique is called a commitment device, 286 00:15:58,196 --> 00:16:00,476 Speaker 1: which locks you into a plan to reach your long 287 00:16:00,556 --> 00:16:03,796 Speaker 1: term goals. The key feature of a commitment device is 288 00:16:03,796 --> 00:16:06,356 Speaker 1: that if you don't follow through with your plan, there's 289 00:16:06,396 --> 00:16:10,116 Speaker 1: some sort of penalty in place. I remember, I'm curious 290 00:16:10,116 --> 00:16:12,756 Speaker 1: if you actually remember the experience of first learning about them, 291 00:16:12,796 --> 00:16:15,716 Speaker 1: because for me, it was like mind blowing how powerful 292 00:16:15,796 --> 00:16:18,756 Speaker 1: they were, and actually mind blowing how few people use 293 00:16:18,836 --> 00:16:20,996 Speaker 1: them given how powerful they are. But the study that 294 00:16:21,116 --> 00:16:24,636 Speaker 1: I love that really I think illustrates nicely how much 295 00:16:24,676 --> 00:16:27,636 Speaker 1: they can help us is a study where they partnered 296 00:16:27,676 --> 00:16:30,396 Speaker 1: with a bank in the Philippines that saw low savings 297 00:16:30,436 --> 00:16:31,916 Speaker 1: rates and wanted to figure out if there was a 298 00:16:31,956 --> 00:16:34,156 Speaker 1: way to help people save more so they'd have the 299 00:16:34,196 --> 00:16:38,396 Speaker 1: ability to have better health, have better life outcomes. Where 300 00:16:38,476 --> 00:16:40,636 Speaker 1: they came up with this idea that one of the 301 00:16:40,676 --> 00:16:43,636 Speaker 1: reasons people were having trouble accumulating savings balances is they 302 00:16:43,676 --> 00:16:46,156 Speaker 1: were constantly tempted to dip in. They were like, they 303 00:16:46,156 --> 00:16:48,516 Speaker 1: opened the bank account and then they put some money aside, 304 00:16:48,516 --> 00:16:51,436 Speaker 1: but then somebody's birthday or there's a holiday, and so 305 00:16:51,476 --> 00:16:54,356 Speaker 1: the money came right back out and it never accumulated. 306 00:16:54,436 --> 00:16:56,236 Speaker 1: And that people said, you know, actually, I'd kind of 307 00:16:56,276 --> 00:16:58,396 Speaker 1: like it if I couldn't get them money out I 308 00:16:58,636 --> 00:17:01,756 Speaker 1: kind of wish I couldn't act on those impulses. So 309 00:17:01,796 --> 00:17:03,756 Speaker 1: they developed this new kind of account. It was a 310 00:17:03,796 --> 00:17:06,836 Speaker 1: commitment savings account. So you put money in and you 311 00:17:06,916 --> 00:17:09,116 Speaker 1: are not allowed to take it out until a predetermin 312 00:17:09,116 --> 00:17:11,916 Speaker 1: and date you choose or a savings goal you choose. 313 00:17:12,356 --> 00:17:15,276 Speaker 1: They offered this kind of account to, you know, a 314 00:17:15,356 --> 00:17:18,276 Speaker 1: random subset of customers alongside the usual account with the 315 00:17:18,316 --> 00:17:21,956 Speaker 1: same interest rate, but free in and out access. They 316 00:17:22,316 --> 00:17:26,116 Speaker 1: saved eighty percent more year over year than the control 317 00:17:26,836 --> 00:17:30,756 Speaker 1: I mean eighty percent more savings. Right, you've studied savings 318 00:17:30,916 --> 00:17:34,596 Speaker 1: like that. That's life changing. So I love that story. 319 00:17:34,676 --> 00:17:37,556 Speaker 1: That's a hard commitment because when you put your money in, 320 00:17:37,596 --> 00:17:40,276 Speaker 1: there is another you know, there's a third party, the 321 00:17:40,356 --> 00:17:43,356 Speaker 1: bank that is saying like, you cannot have it. It 322 00:17:43,516 --> 00:17:45,956 Speaker 1: is not accessible to you. I'm preventing I'm preventing you 323 00:17:45,956 --> 00:17:48,476 Speaker 1: from So there's like a hard restriction on access to something. 324 00:17:48,556 --> 00:17:51,076 Speaker 1: And a commitment device is something you voluntarily opt into 325 00:17:51,156 --> 00:17:54,196 Speaker 1: that restricts you or penalizes you in some way if 326 00:17:54,196 --> 00:17:56,156 Speaker 1: you don't achieve your goals or pursue your goals in 327 00:17:56,156 --> 00:17:57,996 Speaker 1: the way you intend to. So that's a hard one 328 00:17:58,076 --> 00:18:01,716 Speaker 1: because there's no fudging it. There's soft commitments in the 329 00:18:01,716 --> 00:18:05,716 Speaker 1: world too, Like you know, you tell your partner or 330 00:18:05,836 --> 00:18:08,156 Speaker 1: your mom you're going to do something, and then they 331 00:18:08,636 --> 00:18:11,276 Speaker 1: ask them to give you a hard time if you don't. 332 00:18:11,556 --> 00:18:13,636 Speaker 1: That's like a weak commitment device. You're gonna get a 333 00:18:13,676 --> 00:18:17,036 Speaker 1: little You're gonna get ribbed a little bit. You're accountable 334 00:18:17,076 --> 00:18:19,716 Speaker 1: to someone, but you can back out. Yeah. I also 335 00:18:19,716 --> 00:18:23,476 Speaker 1: remember learning about commitment devices for the first time. Gosh, 336 00:18:23,516 --> 00:18:26,276 Speaker 1: we sound like such nerds. Do you are? For you, Katie, 337 00:18:26,276 --> 00:18:28,476 Speaker 1: do you remember where you were Remember the day you 338 00:18:28,556 --> 00:18:32,236 Speaker 1: learned about commitment devices? I mean remember exactly where I was. 339 00:18:32,516 --> 00:18:34,756 Speaker 1: I mean I'm like, yeah, I was in a classroom. 340 00:18:34,876 --> 00:18:40,156 Speaker 1: My head exploded. Where were you? I was in my 341 00:18:40,236 --> 00:18:41,916 Speaker 1: kitchen with my roommates, and I was reading this paper 342 00:18:41,916 --> 00:18:43,636 Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, this is so exciting. The 343 00:18:43,676 --> 00:18:47,436 Speaker 1: researchers ran a study in which they had people outline where, when, 344 00:18:47,436 --> 00:18:49,916 Speaker 1: and how they were planning to get vaccinated. So that 345 00:18:50,036 --> 00:18:52,276 Speaker 1: was my study. Oh my gosh, this is so fun. 346 00:18:52,316 --> 00:18:54,476 Speaker 1: The flu shot study I'm talking about is your study. 347 00:18:54,516 --> 00:18:58,316 Speaker 1: See that's awesome. Okay, well, the seminal work by doctor 348 00:18:58,316 --> 00:19:02,556 Speaker 1: milkman Um so in your study. You ask people where, when, 349 00:19:02,596 --> 00:19:04,756 Speaker 1: and how you're gonna go get vaccinated? Right, And I 350 00:19:04,796 --> 00:19:06,516 Speaker 1: think what was so studying to me is like you, 351 00:19:06,716 --> 00:19:08,156 Speaker 1: so you write down this forum. You know, I maya 352 00:19:08,396 --> 00:19:11,076 Speaker 1: nine am after or I drop off my husband at 353 00:19:11,076 --> 00:19:13,356 Speaker 1: work and I go pick up my groceries. I'm going 354 00:19:13,396 --> 00:19:15,236 Speaker 1: to go to the CBS can get my flu vaccine. 355 00:19:15,356 --> 00:19:18,396 Speaker 1: And what was astonishing to me is that it significantly 356 00:19:18,436 --> 00:19:22,956 Speaker 1: increased the vaccination rate despite the fact that you weren't 357 00:19:22,996 --> 00:19:26,476 Speaker 1: accountable to anyone, right in this intervention. You were not 358 00:19:26,556 --> 00:19:29,196 Speaker 1: required to send the letter back to anyone, No one 359 00:19:29,316 --> 00:19:32,236 Speaker 1: was on your case. You were literally just planning it 360 00:19:32,236 --> 00:19:35,916 Speaker 1: out for yourself, and that was enough to significantly drive 361 00:19:35,956 --> 00:19:37,996 Speaker 1: the numbers up, which to me again was such an 362 00:19:37,996 --> 00:19:43,316 Speaker 1: extraordinary lightlift, low cost intervention that could potentially save people's lives. 363 00:19:43,716 --> 00:19:45,836 Speaker 1: And in your book you talk about the fact that 364 00:19:46,596 --> 00:19:49,436 Speaker 1: we all have a fairly maybe not everyone, but many 365 00:19:49,476 --> 00:19:52,636 Speaker 1: people have a very high view of themselves, so they 366 00:19:52,756 --> 00:19:57,116 Speaker 1: feel like they might not benefit that much from commitment devices. 367 00:19:57,316 --> 00:20:01,516 Speaker 1: And you know, we can be very over optimistic about 368 00:20:01,556 --> 00:20:04,956 Speaker 1: our ability to use willpower to avoid temptation. And I'm 369 00:20:04,956 --> 00:20:07,356 Speaker 1: wondering if you have any thoughts or advice for helping 370 00:20:07,396 --> 00:20:11,116 Speaker 1: people overcome this over confidence so that they can achieve 371 00:20:11,156 --> 00:20:15,236 Speaker 1: their goals. Yeah, it's funny. Optimism is a really good thing, 372 00:20:15,476 --> 00:20:18,876 Speaker 1: but in this particular case, it plays tricks on us 373 00:20:18,916 --> 00:20:23,396 Speaker 1: that are problematic because we don't in general persevere as 374 00:20:23,516 --> 00:20:26,596 Speaker 1: much as we think we will, and we do tend 375 00:20:26,596 --> 00:20:32,276 Speaker 1: to be present biased, right, so we dramatically overweight whatever 376 00:20:32,636 --> 00:20:35,716 Speaker 1: value will get from something instantaneously rather than the long 377 00:20:35,836 --> 00:20:38,756 Speaker 1: term value. So you know, I can buy a present 378 00:20:38,916 --> 00:20:41,436 Speaker 1: right now for myself, or I can put money in savings. 379 00:20:41,796 --> 00:20:43,516 Speaker 1: I'll take the present even if that's not really good 380 00:20:43,516 --> 00:20:45,756 Speaker 1: for me in the long run. And if we don't 381 00:20:45,796 --> 00:20:48,836 Speaker 1: appreciate that, this disconnect keeps happening, and we think we'll 382 00:20:48,836 --> 00:20:51,396 Speaker 1: just barrel through and do what's in our long term 383 00:20:51,396 --> 00:20:54,836 Speaker 1: best interests, we don't choose to use commitment devices because 384 00:20:54,836 --> 00:20:57,916 Speaker 1: we don't recognize this challenge. So I think it's a 385 00:20:57,916 --> 00:21:01,236 Speaker 1: really tough nut to crack. And for me, the big 386 00:21:01,316 --> 00:21:04,516 Speaker 1: thing was sort of seeing the data and seeing here's 387 00:21:04,556 --> 00:21:07,116 Speaker 1: the evidence if you see it with your own eyes 388 00:21:07,116 --> 00:21:09,596 Speaker 1: and you see how powerful these tools are, how often 389 00:21:09,636 --> 00:21:11,436 Speaker 1: we do stumble even though we think we'll be able 390 00:21:11,436 --> 00:21:13,876 Speaker 1: to push through. Maybe that evidence will be enough to 391 00:21:14,716 --> 00:21:18,356 Speaker 1: get people to recognize this can be a really potent approach. 392 00:21:19,316 --> 00:21:22,956 Speaker 1: You have lots of colorful anecdotes sprinkled throughout of real 393 00:21:22,956 --> 00:21:26,756 Speaker 1: people who are facing these challenges and using these behavioral 394 00:21:26,756 --> 00:21:29,156 Speaker 1: tricks of the trade. And I do feel like in 395 00:21:29,196 --> 00:21:32,356 Speaker 1: many ways you're wielding the power of social norms by saying, Hey, 396 00:21:32,396 --> 00:21:34,356 Speaker 1: at least here's a collection of people who are willing 397 00:21:34,636 --> 00:21:38,476 Speaker 1: to acknowledge that they may be a bit overconfident about 398 00:21:38,516 --> 00:21:42,156 Speaker 1: their ability to use, for example, willpower to achieve their goals, 399 00:21:42,156 --> 00:21:45,036 Speaker 1: and they're open to using some of these strategies. So 400 00:21:45,196 --> 00:21:48,036 Speaker 1: maybe there could be a positive norm effect that comes 401 00:21:48,036 --> 00:21:50,676 Speaker 1: from people reading your book Fingers Crossed. I love that. 402 00:21:50,716 --> 00:21:54,396 Speaker 1: I like that the modeling, and you know, anytime I 403 00:21:54,396 --> 00:21:57,036 Speaker 1: can use insights about social norms to make the world 404 00:21:57,036 --> 00:22:01,556 Speaker 1: a better place, I'm it's a win. What do you 405 00:22:01,636 --> 00:22:05,596 Speaker 1: see in the future of change research? In your ideal feature. 406 00:22:07,916 --> 00:22:10,996 Speaker 1: When I think about what I'm most intrigued by and 407 00:22:11,076 --> 00:22:14,356 Speaker 1: feel like we've only scratched the surface of in studying change, 408 00:22:14,436 --> 00:22:19,516 Speaker 1: there's two big things. One is durability. What are the 409 00:22:19,636 --> 00:22:23,996 Speaker 1: kinds of tools that really propel change? In an incredibly 410 00:22:24,076 --> 00:22:26,836 Speaker 1: durable way, you know. I think a key takeaway for 411 00:22:26,916 --> 00:22:28,996 Speaker 1: me has been, like, never stopped doing the thing that's 412 00:22:29,036 --> 00:22:31,596 Speaker 1: working right. Don't like assume you can temptation bundle for 413 00:22:31,596 --> 00:22:34,076 Speaker 1: a month, then you've built an exercise habit and magically, maya, 414 00:22:34,156 --> 00:22:36,396 Speaker 1: you will never need to listen to a pop song again, 415 00:22:36,436 --> 00:22:38,116 Speaker 1: and you'll always want to go to the gym. So 416 00:22:38,156 --> 00:22:40,716 Speaker 1: you got to keep doing that. So we know that. 417 00:22:40,796 --> 00:22:43,556 Speaker 1: But are there any magical things that where if you 418 00:22:43,796 --> 00:22:46,156 Speaker 1: sort of can put them on autopilot or do them 419 00:22:46,156 --> 00:22:47,636 Speaker 1: for a little while and they propel you for it. 420 00:22:48,356 --> 00:22:51,596 Speaker 1: I wonder I would love to uncover some if they exist. 421 00:22:51,956 --> 00:22:56,636 Speaker 1: And then the other thing I'm really intrigued by is 422 00:22:57,476 --> 00:23:01,196 Speaker 1: setbacks and how to sort of how to prepare for 423 00:23:01,276 --> 00:23:03,836 Speaker 1: them and recover from them as effectively as possible. I 424 00:23:03,836 --> 00:23:06,636 Speaker 1: think some of the most interesting ideas I have encountered 425 00:23:06,876 --> 00:23:12,196 Speaker 1: around change work because they have they help us with 426 00:23:12,196 --> 00:23:13,996 Speaker 1: those setbacks. I think fresh starts sort of help us 427 00:23:14,036 --> 00:23:16,596 Speaker 1: with the setbacks. They're like, okay, wipe the slate clean, 428 00:23:16,676 --> 00:23:18,796 Speaker 1: You're I get to get up and go again. There's 429 00:23:19,316 --> 00:23:23,716 Speaker 1: wonderful work by my colleague Mersa Sharif on emergency reserves 430 00:23:23,716 --> 00:23:25,836 Speaker 1: where she's figured out these clever ways that you set 431 00:23:25,836 --> 00:23:28,076 Speaker 1: a tough goal, but give yourself a couple get out 432 00:23:28,076 --> 00:23:30,476 Speaker 1: of Gael free cards if you can't achieve it every 433 00:23:30,516 --> 00:23:32,756 Speaker 1: day of the week, and found that that's way better 434 00:23:32,756 --> 00:23:35,836 Speaker 1: than giving yourself sort of like a slightly easier goal 435 00:23:36,276 --> 00:23:38,556 Speaker 1: because you're going for the stretch, but you're giving yourself 436 00:23:38,596 --> 00:23:41,636 Speaker 1: a little leeway. I think that also is like about 437 00:23:41,676 --> 00:23:44,956 Speaker 1: getting back up. So I think there's some really fundamental, 438 00:23:45,036 --> 00:23:51,076 Speaker 1: interesting things to be explored around creating structures for success 439 00:23:51,156 --> 00:23:55,596 Speaker 1: after a setback, and I look forward to studying that too, Katie. 440 00:23:55,716 --> 00:23:58,956 Speaker 1: One of the things that I feel most intimidated by 441 00:23:59,076 --> 00:24:01,516 Speaker 1: is this challenge of how it is we can change 442 00:24:01,516 --> 00:24:06,396 Speaker 1: people's minds. It feels like one of those really elicit things, 443 00:24:06,596 --> 00:24:10,436 Speaker 1: and there's no one size fits all approach, And I'm 444 00:24:10,436 --> 00:24:12,636 Speaker 1: just wondering if you have any thoughts on the most 445 00:24:12,676 --> 00:24:16,196 Speaker 1: effective strategies you've seen, either in research or just in 446 00:24:16,236 --> 00:24:19,996 Speaker 1: your personal life around how to change people's minds. Yeah, 447 00:24:19,996 --> 00:24:25,436 Speaker 1: it's such an interesting question. It's obviously really hard, just 448 00:24:25,476 --> 00:24:28,276 Speaker 1: like behavior change is hard, changing opinions is really hard. 449 00:24:28,356 --> 00:24:31,836 Speaker 1: I think actually there are some common themes though, and 450 00:24:31,916 --> 00:24:38,356 Speaker 1: one common theme is exploration. So when we talked about 451 00:24:39,076 --> 00:24:41,836 Speaker 1: the fresh start effect and how these disruptions in our 452 00:24:41,876 --> 00:24:44,436 Speaker 1: lives can lead us to sort of be in a 453 00:24:44,516 --> 00:24:48,196 Speaker 1: new environment and you can therefore explore and you don't 454 00:24:48,236 --> 00:24:51,476 Speaker 1: have old bad habits necessarily already built to fall back on. 455 00:24:51,596 --> 00:24:53,756 Speaker 1: There's also an opportunity to do that in terms of 456 00:24:53,956 --> 00:24:57,276 Speaker 1: mindset shift. So I think when we have a set 457 00:24:57,276 --> 00:25:01,756 Speaker 1: of beliefs and expectations, were less likely to explore and 458 00:25:01,876 --> 00:25:06,156 Speaker 1: read and talk to people outside of our perspective. But 459 00:25:06,876 --> 00:25:09,716 Speaker 1: if we can, if there's a moment that career or 460 00:25:09,756 --> 00:25:16,236 Speaker 1: forces some experimentation an exploration, that can be incredibly powerful. Yeah. 461 00:25:16,276 --> 00:25:18,196 Speaker 1: I like that too, because it's not so pointed, right, 462 00:25:18,236 --> 00:25:20,116 Speaker 1: It's not like I need you to change your opinion 463 00:25:20,156 --> 00:25:23,596 Speaker 1: about this thing. It's let me just try to get 464 00:25:23,596 --> 00:25:26,956 Speaker 1: you to expose yourself to stuff. Period. I'm wondering if 465 00:25:26,956 --> 00:25:29,916 Speaker 1: you have any concrete ideas on how we can motivate 466 00:25:29,956 --> 00:25:35,196 Speaker 1: people to engage in that exploration, because exploration is very uncomfortable, right, 467 00:25:35,236 --> 00:25:39,876 Speaker 1: Like we all have deeply entrenched views within us. Purposely 468 00:25:39,916 --> 00:25:42,716 Speaker 1: going on a mission to challenge those views is not 469 00:25:42,836 --> 00:25:45,596 Speaker 1: exactly the most fun adventure. It's just it's filled with 470 00:25:45,636 --> 00:25:49,716 Speaker 1: cognitive dissonance. It just feels uncomfortable. And so how do 471 00:25:49,756 --> 00:25:54,116 Speaker 1: we incentivize people to go on those little missions? You know, 472 00:25:54,196 --> 00:25:57,116 Speaker 1: I have to think that a big part of it 473 00:25:57,196 --> 00:26:02,716 Speaker 1: is probably through social norms, which is such a powerful tool. 474 00:26:02,756 --> 00:26:04,916 Speaker 1: For instance, if you end up with a roommate who's 475 00:26:04,956 --> 00:26:07,956 Speaker 1: a good student, your grades are likely to be a 476 00:26:07,956 --> 00:26:12,836 Speaker 1: bit higher. So you know, if we point out others 477 00:26:12,876 --> 00:26:15,636 Speaker 1: like you who have changed their mind, it gives you 478 00:26:15,956 --> 00:26:18,756 Speaker 1: license to say, like, oh, maybe, like it's reasonable for 479 00:26:18,796 --> 00:26:21,636 Speaker 1: someone like meeting to keep exploring and keep thinking about 480 00:26:21,676 --> 00:26:24,596 Speaker 1: different ideas. I think that might be a way that 481 00:26:25,076 --> 00:26:28,956 Speaker 1: we can introduce this exploration concept and not have it 482 00:26:29,036 --> 00:26:31,436 Speaker 1: be too threatening and have it be appealing. I think 483 00:26:31,436 --> 00:26:33,476 Speaker 1: that's exactly right. I mean, it's reminding me. There's this 484 00:26:33,516 --> 00:26:35,876 Speaker 1: one interview I did with a woman named Megan Phelps 485 00:26:35,956 --> 00:26:39,556 Speaker 1: Roper and she ends up leaving this hate group cult church, 486 00:26:39,996 --> 00:26:43,036 Speaker 1: and I was asking her, are you using your platform 487 00:26:43,076 --> 00:26:45,556 Speaker 1: today to convince other people? Because there's so much research 488 00:26:46,116 --> 00:26:49,596 Speaker 1: showing the power of a convert. So when you hold 489 00:26:49,676 --> 00:26:53,316 Speaker 1: the views that this person in front of you previously held, 490 00:26:53,396 --> 00:26:56,436 Speaker 1: and then you watch them walk you through their journey 491 00:26:56,436 --> 00:26:59,116 Speaker 1: of changing their minds. It can open your mind in 492 00:26:59,156 --> 00:27:01,236 Speaker 1: a really unique way because you feel attached to their 493 00:27:01,236 --> 00:27:03,276 Speaker 1: former value system, right. You know that you started in 494 00:27:03,276 --> 00:27:05,876 Speaker 1: the same place, but they ended up in a different place. 495 00:27:06,116 --> 00:27:08,916 Speaker 1: I know the Department of Homeland Security uses this inside 496 00:27:08,956 --> 00:27:12,876 Speaker 1: all the time by recruiting former extremists to try to 497 00:27:12,916 --> 00:27:16,836 Speaker 1: convert potential extremists away from that craft. It's so interesting too, 498 00:27:16,836 --> 00:27:19,916 Speaker 1: because I'm thinking about like the original, like nineteen fifty 499 00:27:19,916 --> 00:27:23,716 Speaker 1: five Solomon ash experiments where he'd bring all these people 500 00:27:23,756 --> 00:27:26,156 Speaker 1: into a room and he'd show them two cards. One 501 00:27:26,156 --> 00:27:27,876 Speaker 1: had one line on it and one had three and 502 00:27:27,876 --> 00:27:29,436 Speaker 1: you had to figure out which of those three lines 503 00:27:29,516 --> 00:27:31,316 Speaker 1: was the same length as the one line. And it 504 00:27:31,356 --> 00:27:34,356 Speaker 1: seems like this really simple task and it was fairly straightforward. 505 00:27:34,356 --> 00:27:38,636 Speaker 1: People didn't get it wrong except when he introduced social pressure. 506 00:27:39,036 --> 00:27:41,396 Speaker 1: So he'd bring a group in and have seven of 507 00:27:41,396 --> 00:27:44,476 Speaker 1: them consistently give those same wrong answer before you give 508 00:27:44,516 --> 00:27:47,876 Speaker 1: your answer, and people started messing up and they're like 509 00:27:47,956 --> 00:27:50,836 Speaker 1: totally confused. But was really interesting, you know, that's the 510 00:27:50,876 --> 00:27:53,636 Speaker 1: famous finding. When everybody else says the wrong answer, you 511 00:27:53,716 --> 00:27:56,396 Speaker 1: go along with it a lot, and you actually believe 512 00:27:56,476 --> 00:28:00,076 Speaker 1: that you must be seeing things. One of my favorite 513 00:28:00,076 --> 00:28:02,876 Speaker 1: subfindings that I think gets less play is that if 514 00:28:02,876 --> 00:28:06,196 Speaker 1: there's just one truthful person in that set, so six 515 00:28:06,236 --> 00:28:08,156 Speaker 1: people out of the seven say the wrong answer, but 516 00:28:08,396 --> 00:28:11,996 Speaker 1: one says the right answer, you're much more likely to 517 00:28:12,276 --> 00:28:16,476 Speaker 1: follow your intuition and say what you really think is right. 518 00:28:16,556 --> 00:28:19,796 Speaker 1: So anyway, I think that that's interesting in relation to 519 00:28:19,836 --> 00:28:22,636 Speaker 1: the sort of power of the one person who broke free. 520 00:28:22,996 --> 00:28:26,916 Speaker 1: Just seeing one person who agrees with your shows you 521 00:28:26,956 --> 00:28:30,036 Speaker 1: a slightly different worldview, can make it possible for you 522 00:28:30,076 --> 00:28:33,756 Speaker 1: to feel comfortable going against the grain. Yeah, I love that. 523 00:28:34,156 --> 00:28:36,516 Speaker 1: So I really want to get your thoughts on this. 524 00:28:37,716 --> 00:28:40,956 Speaker 1: We are living in a world right now where we're 525 00:28:40,996 --> 00:28:44,116 Speaker 1: almost in like this self help moment right where everybody's 526 00:28:44,156 --> 00:28:47,996 Speaker 1: trying to optimize their lives, and I do wonder where 527 00:28:47,996 --> 00:28:50,996 Speaker 1: the limits are of that. And at one point you 528 00:28:51,076 --> 00:28:53,836 Speaker 1: have to say, you know what, like, I just can't 529 00:28:53,876 --> 00:28:56,396 Speaker 1: spend my whole life trying to optimize. I just need 530 00:28:56,436 --> 00:28:58,916 Speaker 1: to kind of be and live and exist. And the 531 00:28:58,956 --> 00:29:00,636 Speaker 1: reason I asked that is it it's alarming to me. 532 00:29:00,876 --> 00:29:03,716 Speaker 1: I'll hear certain people say, oh, yeah, no, it's super 533 00:29:03,756 --> 00:29:07,396 Speaker 1: important to be bored because actually boredom makes you more productive, 534 00:29:07,556 --> 00:29:10,836 Speaker 1: So even boredom is now an instrumental thing, were becoming 535 00:29:10,836 --> 00:29:12,956 Speaker 1: more productive, Like oh yeah, make sure you stare out 536 00:29:12,956 --> 00:29:15,196 Speaker 1: the window for at least five minutes a day, because 537 00:29:15,196 --> 00:29:18,236 Speaker 1: that'll help you be more productive. I feel like sometimes 538 00:29:18,636 --> 00:29:22,396 Speaker 1: we don't just do things because we've we just value 539 00:29:22,436 --> 00:29:24,596 Speaker 1: those things. We always do things because they have some 540 00:29:24,716 --> 00:29:28,756 Speaker 1: instrumental value in terms of achieving something else. And and 541 00:29:28,836 --> 00:29:32,836 Speaker 1: that's also super interesting, maya, because those are like little hacks, right, like, oh, 542 00:29:32,876 --> 00:29:34,836 Speaker 1: you know, stare out the window for five minutes. And 543 00:29:36,036 --> 00:29:38,076 Speaker 1: if we like fill our life with all those little hacks, 544 00:29:38,476 --> 00:29:41,836 Speaker 1: we actually don't make space for the big momentous change. 545 00:29:42,316 --> 00:29:45,356 Speaker 1: That's so interesting. Yeah, and you're saying that because it's like, oh, 546 00:29:45,356 --> 00:29:48,116 Speaker 1: it's just taking up all your brain airwaves that you're 547 00:29:48,156 --> 00:29:50,716 Speaker 1: not Yeah, you just don't have the time to think macro. 548 00:29:50,916 --> 00:29:54,556 Speaker 1: It's a great point. I think I'll wrap by asking 549 00:29:54,596 --> 00:29:57,076 Speaker 1: what the biggest change you feel you've experienced in your 550 00:29:57,116 --> 00:30:02,276 Speaker 1: life is. Oh, my gosh, there's so many, which is 551 00:30:02,316 --> 00:30:08,636 Speaker 1: part of what makes life so fun. I think honestly, 552 00:30:08,676 --> 00:30:12,396 Speaker 1: one of the biggest most important changes for me went 553 00:30:12,516 --> 00:30:16,956 Speaker 1: from being focused on figuring out how to do my 554 00:30:17,036 --> 00:30:22,596 Speaker 1: own work or live my own life, to taking on 555 00:30:22,636 --> 00:30:26,396 Speaker 1: the role of coaching and helping other people. All of 556 00:30:26,436 --> 00:30:30,596 Speaker 1: those relationships sort of reinforce the same change, which is 557 00:30:31,116 --> 00:30:33,676 Speaker 1: how meaningful it is to be looking out for someone 558 00:30:33,716 --> 00:30:37,196 Speaker 1: else besides yourself, and how much you can learn about 559 00:30:37,236 --> 00:30:40,756 Speaker 1: everything when you are coaching and helping someone else. And 560 00:30:40,796 --> 00:30:45,116 Speaker 1: that helped me actually be better at everything. So I 561 00:30:45,116 --> 00:30:46,996 Speaker 1: would say that's the biggest shift I've had in my life, 562 00:30:46,996 --> 00:30:49,756 Speaker 1: and I hope everyone will get that opportunity to have 563 00:30:49,796 --> 00:30:53,036 Speaker 1: that kind of a shift. Wow, what a positive change, 564 00:30:53,076 --> 00:30:56,956 Speaker 1: What a positive feet to end on. I know how 565 00:30:56,996 --> 00:30:58,836 Speaker 1: busy you are, and I know how much you optimize 566 00:30:58,836 --> 00:31:00,916 Speaker 1: your life in order to make room for these kinds 567 00:31:00,916 --> 00:31:03,876 Speaker 1: of conversations. So thank you so much. It was really 568 00:31:03,916 --> 00:31:06,796 Speaker 1: fun to chat with you. This was so fun. Oh 569 00:31:06,836 --> 00:31:31,516 Speaker 1: my gosh, hey, thanks for listening. See you next week. 570 00:31:31,556 --> 00:31:34,476 Speaker 1: When I talk with rock climber Tommy called Well, he 571 00:31:34,516 --> 00:31:37,596 Speaker 1: says a near death experience where he was taken hostage 572 00:31:37,996 --> 00:31:40,796 Speaker 1: propelled him to become one of the best rock climbers 573 00:31:40,796 --> 00:31:45,316 Speaker 1: in the world. I definitely always felt like adversity is 574 00:31:45,316 --> 00:31:48,156 Speaker 1: what brings us to life, but this turned up the 575 00:31:48,236 --> 00:31:51,956 Speaker 1: volume on that in a pretty incredible way. In some ways, 576 00:31:52,076 --> 00:31:55,236 Speaker 1: my climbing ever since then has been an effort to 577 00:31:55,796 --> 00:31:58,436 Speaker 1: almost get back there in a way and learn more. 578 00:32:08,196 --> 00:32:11,196 Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is created an executive produce 579 00:32:11,276 --> 00:32:15,356 Speaker 1: by me Maya Shunker. Big thanks to everyone at Pushkin Industries, 580 00:32:15,716 --> 00:32:19,956 Speaker 1: including our producer Mola Board, associate producers David Jaw and 581 00:32:20,036 --> 00:32:24,876 Speaker 1: Julia Goodman, executive producers Mia Lavelle and Justine Lange, senior 582 00:32:25,036 --> 00:32:28,796 Speaker 1: editor Jan Guera, and sound design and mixed engineers Ben 583 00:32:28,836 --> 00:32:33,116 Speaker 1: Holliday and Jason Gambrel. Thanks also to Louise Gara who 584 00:32:33,196 --> 00:32:35,756 Speaker 1: wrote our theme song, and Ginger Smith who helped arrange 585 00:32:35,756 --> 00:32:40,356 Speaker 1: the vocals, incidental music from Epidemic Sound, and of course 586 00:32:40,556 --> 00:32:44,036 Speaker 1: a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow 587 00:32:44,076 --> 00:32:46,916 Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya 588 00:32:46,996 --> 00:33:00,436 Speaker 1: Schunker anytime they violate our sorry for frog in my throat. 589 00:33:01,356 --> 00:33:04,476 Speaker 1: Actually like, even though I'm a vegetarian, I occasionally get 590 00:33:04,476 --> 00:33:09,796 Speaker 1: a frog. You're not chewing all, it's not chewing, getting 591 00:33:09,796 --> 00:33:10,436 Speaker 1: it right back out