1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:06,520 Speaker 1: Body Bus with Joseph Scott More, I'd say after out 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: of all of the Looney Tune characters. For me personally, 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: having been a child of the sixties and seventies and 4 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:18,079 Speaker 1: grown up watching the Bugs Bunny road Runner Hour for 5 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: those many years, my favorite adversary for Bugs Bunny was 6 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: probably Yosemite Sam. And the reason I liked Yosemite Sam 7 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: was because he had a temper that was unlike any 8 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 1: other character. He could just go off at the drop 9 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 1: of the hat and not so over the top but 10 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:46,560 Speaker 1: still willing to shoot Bugs Bunny was Elmer Fudd. Elmer 11 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 1: Fudd didn't exactly have the same charisma as Yosemite Sam, 12 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: and certainly Bugs Bunny could fully constantly somewhat of adult. 13 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: But you know, in true crime, and specifically as it 14 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: applies to serial perpetrators, there's one person that has always 15 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:13,680 Speaker 1: reminded me of Elmer Fudd, and that's because it would 16 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: seem that everywhere this one perpetrator went, he always wore 17 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:26,759 Speaker 1: a hat just like Elmer's. He always seemed kind of dim, 18 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: and he always seemed lost. Today, given all of the 19 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: current news about a recent television program, I wanted to 20 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: step back just for a moment and have a conversation, 21 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: a conversation about the forensics of ed Gean, otherwise known 22 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: as the Butcher of Plainfield. I'm Josephcott Morgan and this 23 00:01:57,720 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: is Bodybacks. 24 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 2: Dave. 25 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: Who was your I know, I know for fact you 26 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: watched Bugs Bunny and Roadrunner hour at some point in time. 27 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 1: I got to tell you, drifting back all those years, 28 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:16,679 Speaker 1: did you did you have a favorite adversary of Bugs Bunny? 29 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 2: You know, I liked all of them. 30 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 3: I mean I liked Bugs because he got out smart 31 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 3: at everybody. They made the bad guys into idiots. 32 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 2: I love that. 33 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,079 Speaker 3: I like Yosebity Sam, you know, he cracked me up. 34 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 3: Elmer Fudd, you know I liked him. Okay, but yeah, yeah, 35 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 3: I just like Bugget. 36 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:40,799 Speaker 2: I like bugs. I smarten them all the time. That 37 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:41,679 Speaker 2: was kind of my thing. 38 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: The one character in that whole universe that just always 39 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 1: irritated me, that was the Roadrunner. I was always cheering 40 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: for the Cody. 41 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 2: I really was. 42 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: I just got I got, yeah, I really was. I 43 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 1: just you know, I was. 44 00:02:58,480 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 2: Just for the bad guys. 45 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 3: Like you're watching Goodfellas, You're hoping Henry Hill, you know, 46 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 3: ends up standing. I'm and killing everybody. 47 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 2: Right, No, no. 48 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 1: But you know it's it's uh, you know, it was 49 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:12,519 Speaker 1: it was always the Cody against the road Runner. 50 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 2: And yeah, I think. 51 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 3: I'm trying to figure out, how does a tune so 52 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 3: pure and innocent that we we grew up on this, 53 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 3: you know what our generation learned classical music? 54 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:26,559 Speaker 2: Symphony music from absolutely. 55 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. 56 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:30,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, the first time I went to a symphony, that's 57 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 3: what they took us, like in seventh or eighth grade, 58 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 3: and that's the first thing they did. They start off 59 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 3: with the lone Ranger and then they go into the interlude, 60 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 3: they go into all the other ones. 61 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 2: Well, that's bugs, that's Tasmanian devil, you know. 62 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: Well it was the Valkyries. I think the Valkyries the 63 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: opera with Elmer Fudd wearing the Viking helmet and killed 64 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: the Web, killed the Web. But you know the thing 65 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: about it, those things that seemingly I think Dave, are 66 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 1: so very seemingly docile. Many times it can be those 67 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: things that go bump in the night. I think for 68 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: a lot of us. You know, it's kind of like 69 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: the you know, we're coming into the Halloween season a 70 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: horror movies. The thing that always scares me in Halloween 71 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: movies is not our horror movies. It's never like some 72 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: ghostly specter. It's always the child's toy that begins to 73 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 1: move across the floor, like the tricycle, you know. Or 74 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 1: the doll that's like inanimate, sitting in a chair and 75 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 1: suddenly the head starts to turn in one direction, you 76 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: know that, Or the doll appears on the bed next 77 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:39,479 Speaker 1: to the kid that's terrified of the doll in the 78 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 1: first place. And I think that ed Gean probably he 79 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: was this kind of I don't know, that'll. 80 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 2: Be kind of us. A lot of people don't know. 81 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 3: And I mean this because you know, you hit me 82 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 3: with that Geen a while back, and he said, you know, 83 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 3: we really need to do this story. 84 00:04:58,400 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 2: We really do. 85 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 3: And you started naming up all of these scary movies 86 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,359 Speaker 3: that actually we're taken from the ed Gean story that 87 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 3: came out of the fifties. And that's scary enough. I mean, 88 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 3: when you realize that all of these scary seventies, eighties, 89 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 3: and nineties movies began with a real life story in 90 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 3: Wisconsin with ed Geen, and yet he's not technically a 91 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 3: serial killer, isn't even though. 92 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: He's not not in my estimate. And look, I'm not 93 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: a serial killer specialist. Just because I've worked worked, you know, 94 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 1: killings that were serialized by several individuals does not make 95 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 1: me an expert on the topic of, you know, digging 96 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: into their psyche. As a matter of fact, I just 97 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: in state, you know, the stuff that I deal with 98 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:46,159 Speaker 1: and you deal with by extension on the show is 99 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 1: heavy enough without you know, digging into the brains of 100 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:54,279 Speaker 1: one of these people. But from what my colleagues have 101 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,479 Speaker 1: told me that specialize in this area, most of the 102 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: time they're looking at a minimum of three. And I 103 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:03,919 Speaker 1: hate to reduce it or use this term, but there's 104 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: no really confirmed kills, I guess, and to the best 105 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: of our knowledge, to the best of our knowledge, he's 106 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: only admitted to two. And here's the thing about it. 107 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 1: There are always people out there that want to give 108 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: credit to individuals for more killings. And some of that 109 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: stems I think, well, in the past, it stemmed from 110 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: cops that wanted to close books on cases. And famously, 111 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:43,119 Speaker 1: I'll give you an example. Famously, my first job, which 112 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: was in New Orleans. While I was there, my friend 113 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: who was the commander of the homicide division. They actually 114 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: hosted oddest tool came to town. Yeah, he came to town. 115 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: And I could tell you really the over top, over 116 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 1: the top story about the but it's so disturbing on 117 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: one level. I'm not going to say it, you know, 118 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: on air, but to and what he was looking for 119 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: in many of these instances, because it was him and 120 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: Henry that were the serial killer pair allegedly that traveled about. 121 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 2: Henry what was that guy's last name? 122 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 3: Okay, but he was in Texas, right, and he claimed 123 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 3: to have like killed one hundred people, and then it 124 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 3: was like they got him in a chair and he 125 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 3: found out, I can get another pack of cigarettes if I 126 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 3: tell him I killed three people in Arizona. 127 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: So he tells, yeah, Dave, I've heard estimates up to 128 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: four hundred of them working in tandem. And you know, look, 129 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: that's you're starting to get into. I don't know ginghis 130 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: Khan numbers there. I don't know if that's and I'm 131 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: being facetious by saying that, I just don't. 132 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 2: Know that that's Henry Lee Lucas. 133 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, Henry Lee Lucas. And and you know again another 134 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: person that allegedly had you know, to wax Freudian here 135 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: for second. To wax Freudian here for a second. Is actually, 136 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: you know, kN to Gean in the sense that had 137 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 1: mommy issues, which is kind of kind of fascinating, isn't it? 138 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 3: Sickly I had to do a thing on Henry Lee 139 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 3: Lucas a couple of years ago, one of those deep 140 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 3: dive things that I get it tied up in sometimes, 141 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 3: and I'm not kidding. It was one of those things 142 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,559 Speaker 3: show where I kept thinking, I'm hoping the funding falls 143 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 3: away on this because I'm tired of this guy. It 144 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 3: was just, yeah, the worst of the worst, but those 145 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 3: mommy issues. 146 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 2: It was bad. 147 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 3: But with ed Gean, the two people that he killed 148 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 3: that he has admitted to killing, the one thing I 149 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 3: noticed is that both women were professional women. They had businesses. 150 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 3: We're talking about in the nineteen fifties, right. 151 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 1: Yep, yeah, they were. And I think that's that's significant here. 152 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: You know that the relationship that he had with his mother, 153 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: there's some ination, uh you know that that she, you know, 154 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: casts versions on every other woman in the world other 155 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: than herself, and that all women were evil, and all 156 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 1: all evil sprouts from from females, and you need to 157 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:17,319 Speaker 1: stay away from them. You know, you're going to hell. No, 158 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:18,559 Speaker 1: it's not true. 159 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 3: I can watched The water Boy the other day and 160 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:22,439 Speaker 3: she kept saying everybody was the devil. 161 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:24,679 Speaker 1: So yeah, I wonder, I wonder if that character is 162 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: based on on ed Gean's mama. Yeah, Kathy, one of 163 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: the greatest living actors in American history. 164 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 2: I love her. 165 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: But yeah, so I got to tell you, Dave, you know, 166 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 1: relative to to being capable of what ed Geen was 167 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: eventually capable of, it wasn't. It wasn't like one of 168 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: these suddenly he had a light bulb go off over 169 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: his head to wreak the kind of horror and terror 170 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 1: that ranged all the way from I don't know. We 171 00:09:55,760 --> 00:10:01,719 Speaker 1: could talk about grave robbing. I think actually there are 172 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: elements of necrophilia obviously that are involved in here, and 173 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: you don't necessarily you don't necessarily have to have a 174 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: sexual encounter. 175 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:13,439 Speaker 2: With the dead. 176 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 1: Or raping a corpse is what it comes down to. 177 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: It can be the sexualization of the remains afterwards, you know, 178 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 1: and we see this in some of the quote unquote 179 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: tanned skins that what he formed out of them, which 180 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: is almost like he's trying to transform himself, as some 181 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: people say, into his mother. I've heard other people say, 182 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: trying to transport himself into the life of a woman. 183 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 3: Okay, now this again is something that came up in 184 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 3: Silence of the Lambs in Buffalo Bill. 185 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 2: Yeah. 186 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 3: So a lot of these books and movies that we 187 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 3: have seen in the last years, there's like a shred 188 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 3: of ed geen. They take this part of it and 189 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 3: put it over here, this part and put it on 190 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 3: leather face and you know, the Texas Kansaw massacre and 191 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 3: here's you know, that's that's pretty scary when you think 192 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 3: about what we do as a society, that we would 193 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 3: take a shred of truth and spread it around and 194 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 3: make all these other fictionalized stories that actually you can go, yeah, 195 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 3: I did that. A guy really did try to make 196 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 3: a mom suit. 197 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 2: You know. 198 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know that in and of itself is 199 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 1: far more terrifying, I think than you know, some wackerdoodle 200 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: out in Texas, you know, run around with chainsaw and 201 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: chopping people up and that sort of thing. And yeah, 202 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 1: the mask that you see, you know, quote unquote leather 203 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: face wearing is I think probably an homage obviously to 204 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: Gean he's out in a rural area, isolated in a house, 205 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:48,839 Speaker 1: you know, and there's all kinds of other elements to this, 206 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 1: I think, probably even even elements of cannibalism that some 207 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: people claim that Gean was potentially involved in as well, 208 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 1: you know, the taking of these human remains. And you know, 209 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: I think I've looked at this case over a number 210 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 1: of years. You know, it's been brought to my attention 211 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 1: by students over the years, and one of the things 212 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 1: that's so striking to me, Dave, is that and just 213 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: kind of set the tone here. This is a meanness 214 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: in the terms of this is not a technical world 215 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 1: that has happened in. This was a black and white world, 216 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: and it was I think saying America was innocent back then, 217 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:39,079 Speaker 1: we just come out of World War Two. We were 218 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: not innocent by any you know, stretch of the imagination. 219 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: You had people the decade before that was starving, living 220 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 1: hand to mouth, you know, and the depression. So you know, 221 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 1: I take exception anybody says that America was in the 222 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:55,199 Speaker 1: innocent time back then. You know, it wasn't. We've come 223 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 1: through one of the couple of the most brutal decades 224 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 1: in certainly our country system, maybe even in world history, 225 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: but the world that those investigators back then inhabited, Dave, 226 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: Particularly on that night in November where they finally approached 227 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 1: that farmhouse, not a light was on, as a matter 228 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 1: of fact, no electricity. The environment was illuminated when it 229 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: was illuminated only by lamps. When they walked in and 230 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 1: they pulled out their flashlights and they began to shine 231 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: them about looking through this garbage heap that this man 232 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 1: lived in. Suddenly their eyes focused on things that probably 233 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: no human being is meant to see. But it was 234 00:13:48,800 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 1: their job to process that scene and tell this horrific story. David. 235 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 1: One of the things that I was really interested in 236 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 1: with ed Geen was to kind of dig in and 237 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: see if there were, if there was, how much data 238 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: there was out there relative to forensics. And I came 239 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: across something kind of interesting in this search. Did you 240 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: know I discovered the name at least of a forensic 241 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: or a pathologist who actually did the examination on one 242 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: of the remains covered recovered at the scene. Actually it 243 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 1: was miss Warden's body, and this physician's name he was 244 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: actually from Sheboygan and Sheboygan, Wisconsin, and he did the 245 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: examination of this woman's body actually in a mortuary day. 246 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: He was working for the state police or the state 247 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: Crime Lab on their behalf. And you know, back then 248 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: there were forensic pathologists, but there weren't that many certified 249 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: forensic pathologists. So he's a pathologist. He was studying other things, 250 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: but he also he also did the examination post mortem examination, 251 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: at least on Warden's body. He may have done other ones, 252 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: but I don't have a lot of record relative to that. 253 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: But here's another interesting bit to this. This same pathologist 254 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: actually went to the hospital date and personally examined at 255 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: Gean while he was in custody. Oh wow, which I 256 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: was kind of fascinated by. And I'm wondering was he 257 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: for thinking enough, because you know, this is something we've 258 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: been involved in in forensic pathology for a number of years, 259 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: and it's called living forensic pathology, and sometimes forensic pathologists 260 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: are called in to examine the living, examine the records 261 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: of the living, and many times is to look and 262 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 1: see if that individual has any injuries on their body 263 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: that might communicate with any other injuries that you know, 264 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: they may have found an autopsy or that may have 265 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: been alleged to have occurred. And I think about this 266 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: guy that was in the midst of this. His name, 267 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: his name is actually doctor Friedrich Eigenberger, and he was 268 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 1: born in Germany, and you know, he had been serving 269 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 1: in this area for a long time, had been working 270 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: in this area, and you know, can you imagine just 271 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 1: like him. I can guarantee you the day that these 272 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: cops got up and you know, they put on their 273 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: Humphrey Bogart like suits with their snap brown hats and 274 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:07,160 Speaker 1: their overcoats, and they're going out there just like them. 275 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:09,639 Speaker 1: This doctor, this was the last thing he expected to 276 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: be doing, you know, the next day, can you imagine? 277 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 2: And remember how it started, Joe. 278 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 3: It started with an investigation because Bernice Worden went missing. 279 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 2: They were looking for her. 280 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:25,959 Speaker 3: And as they began the investigation, they find out the 281 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:31,199 Speaker 3: morning of November sixteen, nineteen fifty seven, she's fifty eight 282 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 3: years old, she owns a hardware store. She disappears that 283 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 3: morning and as they're tracking, just like we would do now, 284 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:40,920 Speaker 3: you know, now we would have a CCTV camera, we'd 285 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 3: have you know, ring garbell cameras, any number of things. 286 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:43,439 Speaker 2: Well, back to the. 287 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: Question is would The question is would they work and 288 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: would they be would they be clear? 289 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:47,640 Speaker 2: Yeah? 290 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:51,439 Speaker 3: O luck And so the store. This is how it 291 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 3: came about. The hardware store's truck was seen driving out 292 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 3: near the rear of the building at around nine thirty 293 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 3: in the morning. The store didn't have a lot of customers, okay, 294 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 3: so they had receipts for the entire day. But they 295 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 3: actually found a receipt signed by ed Gean that he 296 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 3: was going to come back the next morning, okay, the 297 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 3: morning of November sixteen and get a gallon of Annie freeze. 298 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:22,959 Speaker 3: So he comes in the day before she goes missing, 299 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 3: agrees I'll buy this, and the receipt is still there. 300 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 3: She's gone. So that was what led them to go, well, okay, 301 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,640 Speaker 3: ed Geen said he was coming here, she's not here. 302 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,400 Speaker 2: Let's go check. Let's talk to Ed. Let's go see 303 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 2: Ed now. 304 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 3: Based on what they found inside that house, I dare 305 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,439 Speaker 3: say people had a few ideas about ed Geen. I 306 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 3: can't imagine. They thought he's old farmer brown just hanging 307 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 3: out there in the dell. You know, people had to 308 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 3: think this guy, there's something up with this cat. 309 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right. And hey, I'm glad 310 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 1: you brought up the term far in the Dell because 311 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 1: you know, there's actually a tiny little range of hills 312 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:10,400 Speaker 1: and southern Wisconsin called the Dell's and my God rest 313 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:12,719 Speaker 1: his soul, my father in law he actually went out 314 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 1: there and would hunt deer out there with friends. But yeah, 315 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 1: and so there's actually the Dell or the Dell's out 316 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,160 Speaker 1: in Wisconsin. By the way, if I've never been to Wisconsin, 317 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: beautiful state. However, it did produce by Jeffrey Dahmer, who 318 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: was actually born in Ohio, I think, but he you know, 319 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:34,880 Speaker 1: he practiced in Ohio. I mean, And of course ed Gan. 320 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 3: Frank Wordon tells the police that you know about ed 321 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:40,239 Speaker 3: coming in the night before his mother goes missing. They 322 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 3: find the sales slit, and so that last sales receipt 323 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,919 Speaker 3: receipt signed by ed Gan, written by Bernice Warden on 324 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 3: the morning she disappeared, So that evening ed Gean was 325 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 3: actually arrested, they went out and said, well, I mean, 326 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 3: we got to and two here we're going to put 327 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 3: it together. 328 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 2: Now. 329 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 3: This is why I say they had to have other 330 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 3: things going on. This is like the bullet part, you know, 331 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 3: they had to have something else going on them to 332 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 3: just go out and say, well, Ed, we got a 333 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 3: receipt saying you were coming by to get Bernie get 334 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 3: a Annie Freeze, and she's gone, so we're going to 335 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 3: arrest you. 336 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:14,120 Speaker 2: But they went to Ed's property. 337 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 3: And that's why this is what I'm thinking, Joe, have 338 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 3: you ever walked into a site where the sheriff's deputy 339 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 3: the sheriff's deputy. Now, when I think of a deputy, 340 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 3: oftentimes I think of a younger guy. I know that's 341 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 3: not always the case, but that's what I in my 342 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 3: head when I'm picturing. I don't know who he was, 343 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 3: but a sheriff's deputy discovered the decapitated body of Missus Worden, Yes, and. 344 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 2: She was hanging. 345 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 3: Upside down by her legs with a crossbar at her 346 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 3: ankles and ropes at her wrists. And the description in 347 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 3: this shed out of the property, the torso had been 348 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 3: dressed out like a deer. Yep, she had been shot 349 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 3: with the twenty two caliber rifle. And they believe the 350 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 3: mutilations were done after her death. Now, Joe, you're going 351 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 3: to have to explain the mutilations because I have no 352 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,400 Speaker 3: way of knowing what we're really talking about. Other than 353 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 3: that crazy description. 354 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,879 Speaker 1: Well, if I could just interject a little something here, 355 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 1: this is actually called trusting. So he and I don't 356 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: know if you recall this, we actually had another case 357 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,640 Speaker 1: that involved trusting Paton Lord. I guess it's probably two 358 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: years ago now. 359 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 2: The name of it. I had to look up what 360 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 2: it meant. 361 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:42,400 Speaker 1: And yeah, exactly. And I think that that individual had 362 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 1: used a prefabed I don't know if they created their 363 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: own trust. It seems as though they had purchased one, 364 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 1: because you can buy them. And the people that use 365 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: these day are people that hunt, hunt game, you know, 366 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:59,400 Speaker 1: big game, and so it's used for field dressing most times. 367 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: You well, you field dressing. It's not necessarily field dressing. 368 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,439 Speaker 1: If you're doing it, you're domicile. I guess field dressing 369 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: implies that you're dressing out the animal in the wooded 370 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: area where you took the animal. However, in this particular case, 371 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:17,439 Speaker 1: she was trust and that would give you just automatically, 372 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: if you were to come onto this cold and you 373 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: saw this body, other than the absolute shock and horror 374 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: of what you're witnessing before you, you would know that 375 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: this person had worked either maybe as a butcher at 376 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: some point in time, or they'd worked in a slaughterhouse, 377 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 1: or they were hunter and you know, you know, Dave, 378 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 1: you know ed Gean was known he was a deer hunter. 379 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: I think that his brother had been to while they 380 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: were in life. And as I had mentioned, there's a 381 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 1: lot of beautiful deer up in Wisconsin. But if you're 382 00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 1: you know, if you're raising hogs as well, this is 383 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: kind of a way that this would be accomplished as well. 384 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 1: So the reason a body would be trust. And when 385 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: we say trust, it's suspended by ankles and instead the 386 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 1: wrist are stabilized. They are concurrently tied as well, just 387 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 1: like with an animal, it'd be the animal's four legs 388 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 1: and then the hind legs are on the primary bar, 389 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:22,920 Speaker 1: so supporting the weight. Well why would. 390 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:23,159 Speaker 2: You do this? 391 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:28,239 Speaker 1: Well, the idea is when you split the animal and 392 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: you're going from the pubis all the way to the 393 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 1: neck what we would call the sternoclavicular notch, which is 394 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: where the sternum and the clavical actually join. The reason 395 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 1: you do this is that when you make the initial 396 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: incision and then you go behind and go down to 397 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: the bowel and as you begin to kind of trim 398 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,640 Speaker 1: down the spine, which is what you do. You're pulling 399 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,359 Speaker 1: the viscera out with one hand and you're shaving with 400 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,479 Speaker 1: the other hand, and gravity begins to help you. So 401 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: you don't have the need of an assistant, Okay, you don't. 402 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,640 Speaker 1: You don't have to have somebody there. Then after you've 403 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: done this, and most of the time, you know, with hunters, 404 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 1: hunters they'll have a way, uh and certainly in professional butchery, 405 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,679 Speaker 1: they'll have a way to collect all of the organs. 406 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 1: Generally it'll be in a centralized sack or something like 407 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,439 Speaker 1: this that they can kind of set aside. Because there 408 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: are organ meats you know, that people people live off of. 409 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: They you know, things that have value, uh, liver, kidney, 410 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: and certainly if you're making sausage, uh, you would use 411 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: with hogs in particular, you'd save the bowel because those 412 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 1: are natural skins that you can actually place, you know, 413 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: you can place organ meat into and grind it up. 414 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 1: So and there's nothing, uh, you know, there's nothing here 415 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: that would give you indication that this is some kind 416 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: of amateur person that hasn't been around the dead. And 417 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 1: what we come to find out about ed Gean is 418 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:15,119 Speaker 1: that it would seem, brother Dave, that these two women 419 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 1: that he rolled over on and admitted to killing were 420 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 1: in fact kind of culmination. I think I think he 421 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 1: had been practicing. And how do you practice? How do 422 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: you practice if you're a surgeon. Well, when you're in 423 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:38,640 Speaker 1: medical school, you go to the gross anatomy lab, where 424 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,199 Speaker 1: no matter how you treat the body, no matter how 425 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,639 Speaker 1: many cuts you make on the body, the body is 426 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 1: not going to react. But then you move from gross 427 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:55,919 Speaker 1: anatomy to a point where you're working on a living 428 00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 1: and in my opinion, that's what ed Gene did. Look, David, 429 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 1: I've never been to Plainville, Wisconsin, all right, I'm not 430 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:17,679 Speaker 1: saying I wouldn't want to go. 431 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 2: I don't know. 432 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: What there is to do there, what there is to see. 433 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 1: I'm at a point in my life now where I 434 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 1: don't have to have a lot to do. I can 435 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:30,959 Speaker 1: just kind of sit and look at things. It all 436 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: depends on my vantage point. I mean, i'd much I'd 437 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 1: much prefer sitting down in Gulf of Mexico and watch 438 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 1: wave roll in. Brother. You know, uh, but you know 439 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 1: there there, you know there are certain locations. I've never 440 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: been there, but I've heard everybody describe this town as 441 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: a location where not much changes or has changed for 442 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:56,879 Speaker 1: a long long time. That's what's so horrific about this. 443 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: And I'm not casting aspersions on big cities, but if 444 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: ed gean, he would make the news in a big city. 445 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:14,199 Speaker 1: But if this happened in some large metropolis anywhere in 446 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 1: the world, it would make it through several news cycles, 447 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 1: and then it would pass away and something new would 448 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:26,640 Speaker 1: replace it. The fact that this is where it works 449 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 1: just the opposite. I think the way that this happened 450 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:35,360 Speaker 1: and the level of horror that was inflicted on this 451 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 1: community has made this thing cycle back over and over again. 452 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: And you know as well as I know, because we've 453 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,680 Speaker 1: heard that those of us that live in more rural 454 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: areas in America we referred to as living in fly 455 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: over country. Right then we don't really matter that sort 456 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,360 Speaker 1: of thing, and so but this is that one. This 457 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: is one of the earliest examples I think of a 458 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: story that resonated with everybody because it kind of got 459 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 1: into our collective conscience. I think, I'm not going to 460 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 1: say DNA, but you know, it really stuck. Willis think 461 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 1: about this. 462 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 3: She had the blank Dahlia in the forties out in 463 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 3: La Yeah, and you know where her body was cut apart, 464 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,640 Speaker 3: drained of fluid, and it was positioned staged for people 465 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 3: who were shocking, shocking pictures taken and shown on you 466 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 3: know it Still to this day there are books still 467 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 3: being written about it and claiming, you know, that was 468 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 3: a murder mystery. But I'm not disagreeing with you one 469 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 3: hunt at all because the story of ed Geen, Like, 470 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 3: let me just give you a little idea what they 471 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 3: found inside there, because it wasn't just one victim. And 472 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 3: I think that's the part that I cannot imagine why 473 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 3: this did not become bigger than it is. The fact 474 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 3: that we're still having movies and documentaries done about it 475 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 3: shows it is big. But I'm with you one hundred percent, 476 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 3: it just lives a different news cycle when you're in 477 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 3: the rural areas of our country. 478 00:28:57,840 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 2: Here's what they found. 479 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 3: They Granted, I would be mortified looking for a woman 480 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 3: that I now believe is probably dead, you know, but 481 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 3: what they found, the way they found her decapitated, that's 482 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 3: more than enough to call it my career over, you know. 483 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 3: But not only did they find Bernice Worden's body, so 484 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 3: just disabused. 485 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 2: I mean, it was just horrible. But then they found. 486 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 3: Whole human bones and fragments, a waste basket made of 487 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 3: human skin, human skulls mounted on bedposts, female skulls, some 488 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 3: with the tops of the head, sawn off bowls made 489 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 3: from human skulls. This is plural, okay. And again they 490 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 3: went there for Bernice Ward and thinking we're going to 491 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 3: find one fifty eight year old business owner, and they 492 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 3: opened the gates of hell. 493 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, that really did it gets worse, Joe. 494 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 3: And I'm not even going to go any further because 495 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 3: I didn't know this, all right. I have not done 496 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 3: a huge deep dive on ed Geen until I did this, 497 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 3: I didn't know the level of what he had done 498 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 3: or how he went about doing it. When you said 499 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 3: you think that he finally moved to living and killing, 500 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 3: how did he get all the others before then, Joe, 501 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 3: where was he going to? 502 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 1: Well? Yeah, he's a grave robber, you know. And there's 503 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: been any number of categories of grave robbers over the years, 504 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: and we've covered them, you know, we've talked about them specifically. 505 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 1: Most of them were to remember the story that we 506 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: covered out of that goes back you know in the 507 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: ante Bellum South in Georgia where they were renovating, you know, 508 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: the medical school at Georgia Medical College many years ago, 509 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: and they were covered all of those remains, and those 510 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 1: had been remains probably a slave population that had been 511 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 1: dug up so that medical students could actually do gross 512 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: anatomical studies, and for a long time that was that 513 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 1: was where most grave robbers. I think kind of fixated 514 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 1: and with it. I think that even in our own brains, 515 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 1: if we try to process this, we can say, Okay, 516 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: I don't necessarily agree with how they went about that. However, 517 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,479 Speaker 1: I do in fact understand the utility of it for 518 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 1: the purposes of educating future medical practitioners. I mean, I 519 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: think you and I would both agree that we both 520 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 1: would like to have medical professionals, professionals taking care of 521 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 1: us that understand basic human anatomy. 522 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 3: I would have absolutely no problem donating my body to 523 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 3: a medical school that felt they could learn or teach 524 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 3: anything based on this. I would have no problem with that. 525 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 3: Not everybody's like that, and I get that, but there 526 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 3: are people like that have no problem with it. I'd 527 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 3: sign the paper right now. Matter of fact, I'm willing 528 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 3: to auction it off. If you want to reach out 529 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 3: with the body. 530 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: Bags, I'll look into it for you. 531 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 2: On the movie No Escape, you know I love those shoes. 532 00:31:55,080 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I love shoes, which is actually a Hannibal lector 533 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 1: quoted too. But anyway, the you know, in this particular case, though, Dave, 534 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: you know you said that you didn't want to go 535 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 1: any further. I will. I'll go ahead and talk about this, 536 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 1: and just so people understand, this is really horrible stuff 537 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 1: that this guy had contained in here. And again I 538 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: can't urge folks enough to think back. This is a 539 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties world where we pretty much believed everything that 540 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 1: we saw in the news. We trusted people. You didn't 541 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: have monsters were something that weren't like in our face, 542 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 1: and we weren't even using We were nowhere even near 543 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 1: using the term serial killer, which of course ed Geen 544 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 1: is technically not so our senses, our sensitivities have changed 545 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:55,959 Speaker 1: much since then, but even by today's standard day, there 546 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: are things in this house that are so shocking. You know, 547 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 1: they believe that he had robbed essentially forty graves, which 548 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: I find fascinating in the sense that most people in 549 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 1: rural areas. Not all, but many people would go out 550 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: and tend to their family's plots, right you go out there. 551 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 1: This may have been going on for I don't know. 552 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: Some people say maybe in the immediate wake of his 553 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 1: mother's death, that it kind of something switched, some trigger, 554 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 1: you know, switched in him and he felt the need to, 555 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 1: you know, kind of embrace this. It's actually kind of 556 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 1: reminiscent Dave of in one sense of Dahmer, because you know, 557 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 1: Dahmer famously said he was trying to create zombies, you know, 558 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 1: people that he could just keep with him and fill 559 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 1: them adjacent to him and hold on to them to 560 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 1: have some kind of relationship. I don't know if that's 561 00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 1: what is at work, but I do know from a 562 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 1: forensic stand point, there were so many samples and specimens there. 563 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 1: Just let me run this by you day real quick. 564 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 1: And this is one of the more shocking things he found. 565 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 1: There were nine volvas found in a shoe box. And 566 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 1: here's what's kind of troubling. Uh Two two of the 567 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:32,280 Speaker 1: vulvas that they found were from teenage girls. Now, teenage 568 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:38,279 Speaker 1: girls don't suddenly die, all right, unless there's some kind 569 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: of you know, an accident or some kind of disease 570 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: that they're suffering from. That leads me to think, were 571 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 1: there any missing teenage girls back then that were never 572 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 1: reported missing, or were these from burials? But he, you know, 573 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 1: he had held on and for those of you anatomically 574 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: that are not familiar with the term volva, it's literally 575 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,920 Speaker 1: the external genitalia female. So he had gone in and 576 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 1: dissected this out and had retained them. He had made 577 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 1: a belt out of out of skin. There's one story 578 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 1: that goes that the belt was actually made of nipples 579 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,439 Speaker 1: kind of all laced together that you know, he would 580 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:29,200 Speaker 1: put put around him and wear. Also, he had a 581 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 1: female suit that he had skinned out, complete with breast. 582 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:40,279 Speaker 1: He had a skinned mask that he had placed on him. 583 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 1: And kind of one element to this is that in 584 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:51,279 Speaker 1: the wake of his mother's death, Dave ed Gean had 585 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:56,359 Speaker 1: begun training in taxidermy, and so he would be not 586 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 1: only was he familiar, as we saw with the one 587 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:03,880 Speaker 1: body that's inverted and suspended that he could feel dressed 588 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:10,840 Speaker 1: and animal, but he was he was into actually fixing 589 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,400 Speaker 1: bodies so that they could be preserved, or he was 590 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:17,240 Speaker 1: learning that process. I think along the way he's also 591 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 1: picking up on tanning methodologies, how to tan hide, you know, 592 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 1: because we've always we've always you know, we've always worn 593 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,840 Speaker 1: you know, animal products, we've always worn leather belts, leather shoes, 594 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:34,239 Speaker 1: all those things. Well, you have to go through a 595 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 1: tanning process. Native Americans did it just naturally, you know, 596 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,799 Speaker 1: they could. They could stretch out a skin and tan 597 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:42,439 Speaker 1: it and scrape it and all that sort of thing. 598 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:45,320 Speaker 1: But if you know what you're doing, and you apply 599 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:49,879 Speaker 1: the right mixture that's going to be primarily sodium based 600 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 1: mixture to dry out, to dry out the skins, you 601 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,160 Speaker 1: can still do that and keep it soft and malleable 602 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: and be able to take it and turn it into 603 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 1: functional leather so you can create things. And that's that 604 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:05,240 Speaker 1: goes to his fixation. I think one of the big 605 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:09,120 Speaker 1: issues here. I'm really curious as to and I know 606 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 1: that the remains were eventually buried in an unmarked grave 607 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 1: there in plainfield, But wouldn't it be fascinating if if 608 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 1: you could go back in time and dig those remains 609 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 1: up and maybe take a look at them genetically to 610 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:29,280 Speaker 1: find out who exactly they were, and you know, open 611 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:33,239 Speaker 1: open that door, uh, you know, because there might be 612 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,960 Speaker 1: families out there that just assume that, you know, their 613 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:37,800 Speaker 1: loved one had been buried, they were in the ground, 614 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,799 Speaker 1: and this is going to be generations later. But you 615 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 1: find that that connectivity, you know, between living relatives and say, yeah, 616 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,359 Speaker 1: this was one of Gene's victims. Maybe people wouldn't want 617 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 1: to know that information, but I am fascinated by that aspect. 618 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:56,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, man, Mary Hogan, Yeah, she was the ed Gean 619 00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:00,720 Speaker 3: confessed to killing Mary Hogan and Bernie's Ward. Now, Mary 620 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 3: Hogan was killed in nineteen fifty three or fifty four, yeah, 621 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:11,319 Speaker 3: fifty four. Bernie's worden in fifty seven, Okay, And when 622 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:18,360 Speaker 3: they actually found Bernice, they actually found Mary Hogan's face 623 00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 3: mask in a paper bag. They found Mary Hogan's skull 624 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 3: in a box. Now, what are these masks that are 625 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,680 Speaker 3: made from the skin of female heads? 626 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:33,399 Speaker 2: Yeah? Is that a thing? 627 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah it is. It's actually, according to what has 628 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,360 Speaker 1: been said, is that he would drape this over his head, 629 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 1: and you know, and he had actually created female leggings 630 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:53,920 Speaker 1: day which again he had skinned out the legs of 631 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:58,520 Speaker 1: some corpse and created leggings that he could wrap around 632 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 1: his own his own leg and walk around with this 633 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: I'm assuming that, you know, because look, his farm was 634 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 1: kind of isolated, you know. It was not like on 635 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,120 Speaker 1: the main street, you know, in this little burg up there. 636 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:18,840 Speaker 1: It's out, it's outside of town, and so he could 637 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:21,719 Speaker 1: walk and frolic and do everything he wanted to do 638 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 1: in the moonlight, you know, dressed, and he'd been engaged 639 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,440 Speaker 1: in this behavior, you know, for years and years. He 640 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:31,360 Speaker 1: had actually perfected it to a great degree. I think 641 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 1: it would have been I think by standards from back then, 642 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:38,200 Speaker 1: it would have been a heck of a thing to 643 00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,480 Speaker 1: be able to go in there and be able to see, 644 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,279 Speaker 1: to be able to see what had occurred from a 645 00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,719 Speaker 1: forensic standpoint, and be able to map that scene out 646 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 1: and try to breathe life in it from that perspective. 647 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,279 Speaker 1: I'm hoping that someday maybe they'll be able to. But 648 00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:00,239 Speaker 1: I know that the story resonates with everyone, or we 649 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,600 Speaker 1: wouldn't continue to have these various iterations of it, you know. 650 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,319 Speaker 1: And look, these stories that you see in Hollywood are not, 651 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:11,200 Speaker 1: as you well pointed out, Dave, They're not all ed Geane. Okay, 652 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 1: a lot of these stories they're selectively choosing. I was 653 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:22,000 Speaker 1: under the understanding when Thomas Harris wrote wrote Silence and 654 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,240 Speaker 1: Lambs that that character, which in the book is called 655 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,799 Speaker 1: and in the movie is called Buffalo Bill. He's kind 656 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,719 Speaker 1: of an amalgam of several serial killers. It's not just 657 00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:36,719 Speaker 1: or let me rephrase that, because I'll get snapped back on, 658 00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:41,759 Speaker 1: because Dean was not necessarily a serial killer, but he 659 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:42,440 Speaker 1: was a monster. 660 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:44,920 Speaker 2: Joe, he's a monster, you know, he's the worst of 661 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:45,239 Speaker 2: the worst. 662 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:47,600 Speaker 3: Look, we've done stereo killers, and that they're horrible in 663 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 3: and of himself. He's a different breed, And I wonder 664 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:52,000 Speaker 3: how many of these are out there. 665 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:56,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, And it is troubling that you, I think that 666 00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:01,759 Speaker 1: your soul could become this dark. I think that you 667 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,880 Speaker 1: would engage in this kind of behavior for a protracted 668 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:09,440 Speaker 1: period of time and it would be normalized in your world. 669 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:15,920 Speaker 1: That you know, maybe he's lingering around the local cemetery 670 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:19,839 Speaker 1: or funeral home. Maybe he's checking the o bits he's 671 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:25,120 Speaker 1: looking in there Are there any fresh dead women that 672 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,920 Speaker 1: I could go and visit after dark with my shovel 673 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,839 Speaker 1: in my hand? Is there anybody that I could go 674 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:36,719 Speaker 1: and construct this fictionalized life or perception of myself? Is 675 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:40,239 Speaker 1: there anybody that I could take and hold on to 676 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 1: forever and ever, never having to bury them like I 677 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:51,560 Speaker 1: had to bury his mom. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and 678 00:41:51,960 --> 00:42:02,959 Speaker 1: this is Bodybacks.