Speaker 1: Tens of thousands of people incarcerated in the US have
Speaker 1: been wrongfully convicted and are being held in captivity for crimes,
Speaker 1: even as they adamantly maintain their innocence. What's it like
Speaker 1: to be one of those imprisoned people, and what's it
Speaker 1: like to be their ally, the one outside committed to
Speaker 1: fighting for their freedom. I'm Lauren Bride Pacheco, and this
Speaker 1: is wrongful conviction. Welcome to wrongful conviction. In two thousand
Speaker 1: and nine, Michelle Morrison was convicted on a felony murder
Speaker 1: charge along with aggravated assault, criminal attempt to commit armed robbery,
Speaker 1: and conspiracy over a two thousand and seven shooting that
Speaker 1: left a man dead. Now, what if I told you
Speaker 1: that not only did Michelle not fire the weapon that
Speaker 1: took the man's life, but she never even set foot
Speaker 1: in the house where the shoe occurred. In fact, she
Speaker 1: didn't even get out of the car. And yet Michelle Morrison,
Speaker 1: at the age of twenty six, was sentenced to life
Speaker 1: in prison plus five years. Her mother, Cynthia Holland, has
Speaker 1: fought fiercely for her daughter's release, which finally occurred in
Speaker 1: August of twenty twenty two, but only after Michelle spent
Speaker 1: nearly thirteen years behind bars for a murder she did
Speaker 1: not commit. Cynthia truly moved mountains to get her daughter
Speaker 1: out of prison and in the process brought about real
Speaker 1: reform in the Georgia justice system. And we'll get into
Speaker 1: exactly how she went about that, but first, Michelle Morrison
Speaker 1: and Cynthia Holland, Welcome to Wrongful Conviction.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Lauren Hi, thank you for having.
Speaker 1: Us wonderful listen. Before we get into the event that
Speaker 1: left you in prison for thirteen years, I just want
Speaker 1: to find out a little bit more about you, Mischae
Speaker 1: as a person, your upbringing, where you grew up, what
Speaker 1: kind of a child you were, and your mom's here
Speaker 1: to keep you on us.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 3: I grew up in Atlanta. My mom and dad were
Speaker 3: married till I was five. I had a lot of energy.
Speaker 3: I was more like a tomboy. I loved to hang
Speaker 3: out with my uncle Joey. That was like my big brother.
Speaker 3: I would ride a scooter, be in the trees, be everywhere.
Speaker 3: I just I was real active. I had a lot
Speaker 3: of energy.
Speaker 2: In school, I was a happy kid.
Speaker 1: What made you happy? What was your favorite music? What
Speaker 1: were your favorite things to do.
Speaker 3: Ooh, my favorite music Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson and my
Speaker 3: favorite thing. When I became I was like, how old
Speaker 3: was I when I was in Girl Scouts? I think
Speaker 3: I was in the fourth or fifth grade. But that
Speaker 3: was my favorite thing. My mom was the leader and
Speaker 3: I got to do everything. It was like I was
Speaker 3: the mini leader because she was in charge. So I
Speaker 3: had We went to the zoo to spend the night.
Speaker 3: We went, we had sleepovers. It was fun selling cookies. Yeah,
Speaker 3: that was really fun.
Speaker 1: I'm a Samoa girl and nuts.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: So by your teens, from being a Girl Scout, you
Speaker 1: kind of took a bit of a different path and
Speaker 1: some of the decisions that you were making at the
Speaker 1: time might have put you at odds with your mom.
Speaker 3: Well, the area that we was in, I really didn't
Speaker 3: care for my school.
Speaker 2: I just didn't like my school. It wasn't really productive.
Speaker 3: I had friends that went to some of the better schools,
Speaker 3: but I couldn't go there first because I didn't stay
Speaker 3: in the area. I didn't have the address, and then
Speaker 3: my mom couldn't take me there because it was far.
Speaker 3: So I kind of just didn't like school at all.
Speaker 3: I'd be the person that to get finished with my
Speaker 3: work and disrupt everybody in class then get in trouble.
Speaker 3: I started kind of like falling back from school till
Speaker 3: eventually I dropped out of school and I started hanging
Speaker 3: out with some kids that one of the best kids
Speaker 3: in the world, But you know, I started hanging out
Speaker 3: with them because I thought they were cool.
Speaker 1: Was that difficult for you, Cynthia, I mean, having been
Speaker 1: the girls Scout leader to kind of having a rebellious
Speaker 1: daughter on your hands.
Speaker 4: Yeah, needless to say, it was. But I had two daughters,
Speaker 4: and it's amazing how you can have two children and
Speaker 4: they can grow up exactly the same and then go
Speaker 4: in different directions. So on one hand, I had one daughter
Speaker 4: that was doing everything in school and loved school, and
Speaker 4: the other hand, another daughter that was rebelling and was
Speaker 4: just kind of going through that teenage stuff. A lot
Speaker 4: of it was because we didn't have a lot of
Speaker 4: the resources back then to help. When you're being a
Speaker 4: single parent trying to raise two children, trying to work
Speaker 4: and everything, it was tough. It was tough.
Speaker 1: What was the age difference? The age difference between you
Speaker 1: and your sister.
Speaker 2: Michelle years she's older than me.
Speaker 1: You know, sometimes it's it's easier to go the opposite
Speaker 1: direction of an older sibling, particularly if they're hitting all
Speaker 1: the high notes. It's a little easier to not follow
Speaker 1: in their steps sometimes. How old were you when your
Speaker 1: parents got divorced.
Speaker 3: I was five, and that took That took a toll
Speaker 3: on me because I was a daddy's girl and we.
Speaker 2: Were super close, super close.
Speaker 3: So when they did get divorced, you know, I understand
Speaker 3: what was going on. He moved to another state and
Speaker 3: I had to wait till summer breaks or Christmas breaks
Speaker 3: to see him.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, they're right there. You know, that hurt me
Speaker 2: real bad. You know, I wanted my dad.
Speaker 1: So by the time you got your teens or obviously
Speaker 1: have different priorities than your older sister and a bit
Speaker 1: at odds with your mom. But what were your goals,
Speaker 1: your thoughts about the future.
Speaker 3: I wanted to I always wanted to work in a
Speaker 3: medical field from when I was young. It went from
Speaker 3: a brain surgeon to a heart surgeon. So when I
Speaker 3: realized I'm not doing at at school, to a pediatrician.
Speaker 3: Then it went to an rin and that was the
Speaker 3: final thing that I was going to do, but I
Speaker 3: ended up enrolling in the CAB tech for a licensed
Speaker 3: practical nurse. I went almost a year and I couldn't
Speaker 3: stay focused because I was dancing in the nightclubs and
Speaker 3: I was so tired trying to go to work and
Speaker 3: trying to go to college. And then when I got
Speaker 3: to math, math has always been my hertes subject and
Speaker 3: it just was frustrating me. I already couldn't focus, so
Speaker 3: I ended up dropping out of the cap tick.
Speaker 1: And so that takes us about to the time when
Speaker 1: this unfolded. How was that time period in terms of
Speaker 1: your relationship, Cynthia, were you guys strained before this happened.
Speaker 4: I was a little disappointed about the things that she
Speaker 4: was doing. I even remember in my Bible study group
Speaker 4: we were giving prayer request and I mentioned pray for
Speaker 4: my daughter because she grew up in the church. She
Speaker 4: was acculate, she loved the church, and now she's taken
Speaker 4: another path. And I remember the pastor telling me, don't
Speaker 4: get so down because you're feeling like you're a bad
Speaker 4: mother and it's not because of that, and he tried
Speaker 4: to encourage me, and I was able to release it,
Speaker 4: and I begin to say well, God, this is your child.
Speaker 4: What are you going to do with her? I just prayed.
Speaker 4: And my grandmother, who bless her so has gone on
Speaker 4: to heaven. She would say, She'll probably be the one
Speaker 4: to surprise you, because when she was young, she would
Speaker 4: just do things and say things that were just amazing.
Speaker 4: So I knew it was inside of her, and I
Speaker 4: think that's why all of this adversity hit her like
Speaker 4: it did, and she went through that to become who
Speaker 4: she is now.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And in terms of that adversity before this incident,
Speaker 1: had you had any substantial runnings with the law.
Speaker 3: Well, I had got on probation and end up going
Speaker 3: to juvenile for not going to school. As my I
Speaker 3: guess my punishment, they sent me to a wolderness camp
Speaker 3: where I had to go for I think it was
Speaker 3: six weeks where I had to go stay out into
Speaker 3: the woods and it was so horrible and I remember
Speaker 3: getting bait up by jiggers.
Speaker 2: Oh it was. It was terrible. It was terrible.
Speaker 3: And I told my mom, I said, oh, I'm not
Speaker 3: I'm going to school. I'm not going to do this
Speaker 3: no more. Like my mom was like okay, okay, okay.
Speaker 3: I was like I'm not gonna do it no more.
Speaker 3: So that's what happened.
Speaker 1: Then, in retrospect, those bug bites probably didn't seem as
Speaker 1: bad as what ended up happening. So take me to
Speaker 1: the night of June eleventh, two thousand and seven, when
Speaker 1: all of this went down. Seems almost like a series
Speaker 1: of bad decisions that snowballed.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 3: So, while I was dancing, I did abuse pills. I
Speaker 3: had a pill habit. They make you hang around people
Speaker 3: that you think are your friends, and really the whole
Speaker 3: time they're not your friends. It's the worst thing ever
Speaker 3: in the world. But I had a friend that I've
Speaker 3: been knowing for years, and she sold drugs and she
Speaker 3: had an escort service. We've been friends, probably before I
Speaker 3: start dancing. We were friends and we were cool, like
Speaker 3: she never owned the vehicle. I always give her rides
Speaker 3: to places or let her borrow my car. On this
Speaker 3: particular night, she asked me for a ride to pick
Speaker 3: up some money that was old to her. She wanted
Speaker 3: the two guys to go with her because the guy
Speaker 3: was dodging her phone calls and he owed her money
Speaker 3: and she needed her money.
Speaker 2: And I drove her there.
Speaker 3: She used my phone acting like her phone was dead
Speaker 3: the whole time. I drove my car with my driver
Speaker 3: license plates retro to my name.
Speaker 2: Everything is to my name.
Speaker 3: I mean, if I was going to commit a crime,
Speaker 3: I would never let her use my my phone and
Speaker 3: traced me. I would have never drove my car to
Speaker 3: register straight back to my house. But once again, when
Speaker 3: you're on heavy pills, none of that matters. You're not
Speaker 3: even really paying attention what's going on in the car.
Speaker 3: You're just driving. So the two guys get out the
Speaker 3: car and I guess they go in. Me and her
Speaker 3: talking the whole time. After they've been out for a second,
Speaker 3: one of the other guys came in and got in
Speaker 3: a car, breathing hard, you know, saying I don't know
Speaker 3: what happened. I don't know if my boy shot this
Speaker 3: guy or the guy shot him. And I'm looking like,
Speaker 3: what are you talking about?
Speaker 2: Shot what?
Speaker 3: So he's had one foot in, one foot out. I'm
Speaker 3: dropped about to drive off, and he's like, I can't
Speaker 3: leave my boy. He get out the car. I ended
Speaker 3: up leaving because I didn't even know the man was dead.
Speaker 3: I didn't know nothing.
Speaker 1: How did you find that out? The next day?
Speaker 3: So when I was going to go pick up my
Speaker 3: contacts from the eyeglass place, the GBI pulled me over
Speaker 3: and said they wanted to talk to me.
Speaker 1: So that's when you first realized that you were caught
Speaker 1: up in all of us, that you were now part
Speaker 1: of the investigation.
Speaker 3: It took me to the police station and they had
Speaker 3: me and my friend up there for a few hours.
Speaker 3: They impounded my car and they let us go.
Speaker 1: And when did you loop your mom that all of
Speaker 1: this was unfolding.
Speaker 4: Actually, I didn't find out for quite some time because
Speaker 4: my father, who was living in Alabama, was killed in
Speaker 4: a car accident on June seventh, two thousand and nine.
Speaker 4: So I was preparing a funeral, driving back and forth
Speaker 4: to Huntsville, trying to secure his belongings and stuff. So
Speaker 4: I was wondering why when Michelle came to the funeral,
Speaker 4: she didn't have a vehicle, and she just told me
Speaker 4: that it was in the shop or something. I still
Speaker 4: didn't know until they actually knocked on my door, the
Speaker 4: GBI and said that they were looking for her about
Speaker 4: a homicide, and my heart just fell out. And the
Speaker 4: GBI can remember him, you know, he was very calm,
Speaker 4: He was very nice about it. He didn't believe that
Speaker 4: she was guilty of it, he assured me, because I
Speaker 4: was like in tears. He said, if you know where
Speaker 4: she is, just tell her to turn herself in. And
Speaker 4: I immediately called her, and that's what we did. I said,
Speaker 4: get it straightened out, but we're not gonna run or
Speaker 4: disregard this.
Speaker 1: So you turned yourself in willingly.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: It was right after the incident, and I was like, yeah,
Speaker 3: I'm gonna do the right thing. I don't have no
Speaker 3: reason to run.
Speaker 1: What was that time period like for you, from the
Speaker 1: time you got the knock on the door of Cynthia.
Speaker 1: Did you think that it was just a formality and
Speaker 1: you'd go in, get questioned and leave.
Speaker 4: No. I thought it was serious. Matter of fact, I
Speaker 4: begin to make in preparations. I went to a bondsman
Speaker 4: to try to prepare for bail. I got things set up.
Speaker 4: They told me that with those types of charges that
Speaker 4: it would probably be serious and a very high bail.
Speaker 4: I mean, I was scrambling trying to make sure that
Speaker 4: I could try to not let her go to that
Speaker 4: awful jail. All the things I saw on TV and
Speaker 4: going people going to jail and getting killed. I mean,
Speaker 4: all kinds of things was running through my head.
Speaker 1: And so Michelle, what was going through your head when
Speaker 1: you walked in to turn yourself in?
Speaker 2: Well, I was so afraid. I was so afraid.
Speaker 3: And I sat there for about a week inside of
Speaker 3: the county jail till I got my bond here, and
Speaker 3: I was scared. I had the same perception of prison
Speaker 3: that my mama did, Like I couldn't imagine my self
Speaker 3: in there for five minutes, let alone thirteen years. So
Speaker 3: I was nervous. But thankfully God had me with a
Speaker 3: good bunkie because we were praying together and stuff.
Speaker 1: How did the detectives treat you initially off the bat?
Speaker 1: Did you have a lawyer when you were first interrogated?
Speaker 3: Nope, And I can honestly say the GBI were very, very,
Speaker 3: very nice to me. They were trying to help me out,
Speaker 3: like they wanted me to help them. They wanted my
Speaker 3: co defend. But I didn't know where she was. She ran,
Speaker 3: she was on a run. I couldn't help you find
Speaker 3: her because she was running for me too. I don't
Speaker 3: know where she was.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think there was even an America's Most
Speaker 1: Wanted episode about her.
Speaker 2: Yeah it was.
Speaker 4: And when we went to court for her bond hearing,
Speaker 4: I brought members from my church. We had three rows
Speaker 4: of people that stood up for her, and the judge
Speaker 4: ended up giving her a bond of one thousand dollars cash.
Speaker 4: When I called back the bond's company and said, sir,
Speaker 4: I don't need you. My daughter just got one thousand
Speaker 4: dollar cash bond and I can pay that, he said, lady,
Speaker 4: you're crazy. Nobody gets it. I said, I'm telling you,
Speaker 4: that's what the judge says. My daughter's walking out. And
Speaker 4: she walked for two years. There was no evidence. The
Speaker 4: GBI said that they were astonished that they she was
Speaker 4: even indicted because there was no physical evidence against her.
Speaker 1: So those two years must have been kind of like
Speaker 1: having raincloud following you because you're still not in the clearer.
Speaker 1: And so when did the plea deal first come on
Speaker 1: the table? What were you offered and who offered it?
Speaker 3: I was offered five years, and that came from the
Speaker 3: DA at the time. I was offered five years to
Speaker 3: turn state on the other two guys that were there.
Speaker 2: So I had two lawyers.
Speaker 3: I had the lawyer that I hired that I kind
Speaker 3: of knew, so I kind of trusted him more. And
Speaker 3: then he hired on another lawyer as a partner, so
Speaker 3: it was like I had doctor Jeko on Hide.
Speaker 2: The lawyer I hired, he was like, we're gonna fight.
Speaker 2: You're gonna win this.
Speaker 4: La la la la.
Speaker 3: The lawyer that I didn't hire, he was like, I
Speaker 3: was a prosecutor before. Take no five years. We know
Speaker 3: you didn't do nothing, but you was there at the
Speaker 3: scene of the crime. This is Georgia. Their laws are crazy.
Speaker 3: So I'm having these two people in my head at
Speaker 3: this time, and I'm like, oh my god, I don't
Speaker 3: know Georgia laws. I ain't never been no serious trouble
Speaker 3: like this. So I'm like, I'm finna fight for my life.
Speaker 3: That's all I seen, That's all I can see. I'm
Speaker 3: finna fight.
Speaker 1: Well, I can imagine if you got a thousand dollars bond,
Speaker 1: you probably felt that roll the dice. You're innocent, you
Speaker 1: didn't do it, So why would you take five years
Speaker 1: and testify against people when you weren't at the scene
Speaker 1: of the murder.
Speaker 4: Well, I, like Michelle, did not understand the system. I
Speaker 4: wasn't clear when they said five years would she be
Speaker 4: saying five years to murder, and.
Speaker 1: It seems like, Michelle, you were getting really conflicting legal
Speaker 1: advice heading into that trial too.
Speaker 2: I wasn't.
Speaker 3: Also, I had just enrolled into Georgia Perimeter for the
Speaker 3: summer course. I was going to start the RIN program.
Speaker 3: So in my mind, I didn't know they was going
Speaker 3: to drop my charge to a list of charge. They
Speaker 3: did not explain the five years. I'm thinking, I'm still
Speaker 3: gonna have this murder charge. I'm like, I ain't gonna
Speaker 3: be getting to college with his murder charge. These are
Speaker 3: the thoughts going in my head. So I'm like, I'm
Speaker 3: trying to go back to school and do the right thing.
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh god, oh no, no, no, no, So
Speaker 3: I didn't I didn't understand it.
Speaker 1: But that said, by the time you're heading into trial,
Speaker 1: you're making steps to get your life back into order
Speaker 1: and take me to the trial. What did it feel
Speaker 1: like sitting in that courtroom and how did you feel
Speaker 1: things were going for you? Michelle?
Speaker 3: Oh, well, I can remember. I remember bits and pieces
Speaker 3: of it. Being so scared. I still was abusing appeals.
Speaker 3: I wasn't really in my right mind. I just wanted
Speaker 3: to be numb.
Speaker 2: I'm so scared. I really didn't want to be there.
Speaker 3: So the whole time, I'm just listening to the case,
Speaker 3: and I'm listening to all the evidence against my co defendents,
Speaker 3: listening to their extensive criminal history, and it felt weird,
Speaker 3: like I didn't belong there. I just felt crazy the
Speaker 3: whole time.
Speaker 1: And it's two years after any event happened, and so
Speaker 1: it's April of twenty oh nine, Cynthia. Were you there
Speaker 1: during the trials?
Speaker 4: I was there every day. Me and one of my
Speaker 4: prayer partners sat there in the courtroom, listened to all
Speaker 4: the testimony. And that's why it was so devastating, because
Speaker 4: the testimony never really had anything solid, and you think
Speaker 4: for somebody to get a life sentence, you would have
Speaker 4: to have a little bit more concrete evidence. Plus there
Speaker 4: were several times that I ran into the judge shopping
Speaker 4: at the grocery store, and one time he was right
Speaker 4: in front of me in the line and he says,
Speaker 4: aren't you the mother of the girl that's on trial?
Speaker 4: And I said, yes, tell her to take the plea deal.
Speaker 4: Tell her to take the plea deal. And I got
Speaker 4: nervous because I didn't think judges were supposed to talk
Speaker 4: to you about that, and it really made me nervous
Speaker 4: more now about the plea deal, and I was like,
Speaker 4: are they trying to set us up? Or what I mean?
Speaker 4: So many things kept going through my mind because I
Speaker 4: was so unsure.
Speaker 1: Wow, and he was giving you a heads up because
Speaker 1: I don't even think that could have prepared you guys
Speaker 1: for the verdict. So take me to the exact moment
Speaker 1: that the verdict is delivered, Michelle.
Speaker 3: Oh, well, they delivered my co defense verdict first, and.
Speaker 2: I was like, oh god, they said guilty.
Speaker 3: So then when they came back to mine and said guilty,
Speaker 3: I felt like I felt like I've been stabbed, and
Speaker 3: it's just I was shocked. I didn't know what to do,
Speaker 3: what to say, and the judge looked at me and
Speaker 3: he was like, I tried to tell this young lady,
Speaker 3: you know he please file your appeals like you can
Speaker 3: tell everybody felt so bad. I remember a lady in
Speaker 3: the jury. She was crying. I guess they didn't realize.
Speaker 3: I don't even know if the jury was told I
Speaker 3: was offered five years because they said it. After I
Speaker 3: got the verdict came down, I was offered five years.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I was in total shock and disbelief. I
Speaker 3: I didn't even understand what was going on, total disbelief.
Speaker 1: Were you sentenced right there?
Speaker 2: And then yeah? So it was right there and then
Speaker 2: life plus five years.
Speaker 4: Yes he said life plus five, but I'm gonna suspend
Speaker 4: the five but still life in Georgia. At the time,
Speaker 4: she was convicted as a minimum of thirty years.
Speaker 1: That's a long time, so thirty before parole, right.
Speaker 4: Before they even look at you.
Speaker 3: When I look, I heard my mama crying. I've never
Speaker 3: heard her cry like that before, so that hurt me
Speaker 3: more than anything because she's such a strong woman, and
Speaker 3: hear her cry just brought my heart.
Speaker 1: So you're twenty six years old, but you're still your
Speaker 1: mom's baby, Cynthia. I can't even fathom what that felt
Speaker 1: like as a mother.
Speaker 4: It was like I was in the twilight zone or something.
Speaker 4: And it happened to be the day that all those
Speaker 4: days my girlfriend sat with me, but that particular morning
Speaker 4: I was there alone. I just became hysterical. I just
Speaker 4: couldn't believe it. It's like someone had taken my heart
Speaker 4: and ripped it out of my chest and just was
Speaker 4: stamping on it. I was feeling everything lost, hurt, betrayed.
Speaker 4: I went to a courthouse where we claimed justice for all,
Speaker 4: but it's justice for some. I felt I was discriminated against.
Speaker 4: I felt like their main goal was to win a case.
Speaker 4: They did not care who Michelle was. They did not
Speaker 4: care any of that.
Speaker 3: During that time, I heard a voice. When I was
Speaker 3: sitting up there, I heard a voice whisper m and
Speaker 3: I thought it was my lawyer at first, but when
Speaker 3: I looked and and I seen he wasn't talking to me.
Speaker 3: A voice whisper and say you're not gonna do a
Speaker 3: life sentence, but you gotta go through this to become
Speaker 3: the woman that you need to be. And later on
Speaker 3: I knew it was God. But at that time, I
Speaker 3: just was like, who said that?
Speaker 2: Who said that?
Speaker 3: And I'm looking around and looking at my mom, and
Speaker 3: everybody was crying, actually all my friends and family in church.
Speaker 3: Everybody was crying. And I I remember saying, you know,
Speaker 3: i'm'a be okay. God got me, and that voice stuck
Speaker 3: with me, the voice. I took the voice all the
Speaker 3: way to prison cause I believed that voice.
Speaker 4: They actually carried me out of the court room. Fat
Speaker 4: hands and feet. I sat in the lobby of the
Speaker 4: courtroom and I just kind of waited. When I left
Speaker 4: there to go to my car, I was I could
Speaker 4: hear people talking around me, but it was like I
Speaker 4: wasn't there, and I was just crying the whole way
Speaker 4: to my car. And I could hear people saying, are
Speaker 4: you all right, ma'am?
Speaker 2: Are you all right, ma'am?
Speaker 4: And it was like they were talking, but I couldn't
Speaker 4: grasp it, and I just kept walking. I got to
Speaker 4: my car. I probably cried all the way home. For
Speaker 4: the first few months, tears were my food, and it
Speaker 4: was just a lot of crying and a lot of
Speaker 4: just I didn't know what to do, kind of just
Speaker 4: in a state of disbelief.
Speaker 1: You're listening to Wrongful Conviction with Lauren Bright Pacheco. You
Speaker 1: can listen to this and all the LoVa for Good
Speaker 1: podcasts one week early and ad free by subscribing to
Speaker 1: Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. So where were you?
Speaker 1: Where were you? Signed? Michelle?
Speaker 2: I was sent to Metro State Prison.
Speaker 1: What was the biggest hurdle for you transitioning to life
Speaker 1: in prison?
Speaker 3: Hmmm, oh wow, just everything. I don't know what was
Speaker 3: the biggest. They all were big to me, having to
Speaker 3: live with people who I don't know who. Some are evil,
Speaker 3: some are good. Just being around these people that I
Speaker 3: deemed as crazy when I first got there because I
Speaker 3: didn't know, Like my perception of prison in jail was like,
Speaker 3: oh my god, like everybody think it's murderous here, so
Speaker 3: you know, just trying to adjust to that and trying
Speaker 3: to I guess fit in having to be in a
Speaker 3: room with somebody, share the same bathroom, sleep on the
Speaker 3: hard bed, where the same outfit every day, the socks,
Speaker 3: everything it would, I mean, everything was big to me
Speaker 3: because it was like a world that I couldn't even
Speaker 3: fantom like I never never would imagine being in a
Speaker 3: place like that, So everything was adjustment. Like when I
Speaker 3: got there, my mom always make sure I have store
Speaker 3: because if you cannot live off, you live off that food.
Speaker 2: I would never eat.
Speaker 3: So and I'm a sweet person, so people see that
Speaker 3: they try to take advantage of you, so they always
Speaker 3: asking for stuff and I'm always giving it to them
Speaker 3: cause I'm used to being nice.
Speaker 2: I'm used to sharing. I'm used to having things, so
Speaker 2: I don't mind sharing.
Speaker 3: So I remember the mental health counselor pulling me in
Speaker 3: there and saying, listen, if you keep sharing, I'm gonna
Speaker 3: write you up. You're in prison. Can you understand where
Speaker 3: you're at. You're not at home. You gonna look at
Speaker 3: you as week take advantage of you. You need to
Speaker 3: stop doing it. And I'm like, I'm just being myself this.
Speaker 3: She was like, well, you're gonna have to do something
Speaker 3: different because it's not gonna work in this environment.
Speaker 1: So when was the next time that you guys got
Speaker 1: to see one another physically, Cynthia? And what was that
Speaker 1: like to see your daughter behind bars?
Speaker 4: The hardest part was leaving her and seeing her in there.
Speaker 4: And of course every time you go to visitation, it's
Speaker 4: a whole other set of drama. I hate the process,
Speaker 4: the way you're treated, the things you have to go through.
Speaker 4: They act like you have committed a crime. So the
Speaker 4: county jail, luckily she didn't stay there, and then it
Speaker 4: was a facility that wasn't too far from home, like
Speaker 4: twenty minutes away, so that we could come pretty regularly.
Speaker 4: But again I had to go through the process with
Speaker 4: the guards. Some of them were very, very mean, but
Speaker 4: as I begin to treat them, in a certain way.
Speaker 4: They begin to treat me in a better way, and
Speaker 4: a lot of them I became good friends with towards
Speaker 4: the end. But visitation process is horrible.
Speaker 1: How did that change the relationship that you two had,
Speaker 1: because suddenly it's not just as easy as picking up
Speaker 1: the phone whenever you want or popping by for a visit.
Speaker 1: How did it change the way in which you guys
Speaker 1: had to communicate Cynthia.
Speaker 4: Well, it was difficult because visitation was limited, and then
Speaker 4: they always changed stuff as you go along. Phone calls
Speaker 4: were limited, and prison is expensive. It is a racket.
Speaker 4: I mean, we spent more money in those years with
Speaker 4: phone calls packages. They charge you for everything. So it's
Speaker 4: just a frustrating thing because you even through visitation, the
Speaker 4: vending machines, the stuff is like a two hundred percent markup,
Speaker 4: and then you take your chance when you put your
Speaker 4: money in there that you might get some food and
Speaker 4: you might not, and then it could be spoiled and
Speaker 4: it could not and you won't get your money back.
Speaker 4: But that's all you can do during that little time frame.
Speaker 4: They gave you communication, You could write letters and stuff.
Speaker 4: But all of that, there were times when I would
Speaker 4: send a simple Christmas card. They sent it back two times,
Speaker 4: but they would never tell me why. They would just
Speaker 4: keep sending it back and I keep sending it back,
Speaker 4: and it was just like, you don't know the rules
Speaker 4: till you break the rules. But then sometimes they never
Speaker 4: tell you the rules because they change depending on who's
Speaker 4: on duty.
Speaker 1: And they change them whether or not it's sparkle or
Speaker 1: glitter or you never know what's acceptable or what's not.
Speaker 1: So there's the physical inconvenience in trying to meet your
Speaker 1: daughter's needs in terms of just basic necessities, but then
Speaker 1: there's also the emotional toll that having to go visit
Speaker 1: or to have a visitor come in. That must have
Speaker 1: been really difficult on both of you.
Speaker 3: I just always try to be positive and try to
Speaker 3: see the meaning behind everything I try to.
Speaker 2: Learn.
Speaker 3: It's always a lesson and in everything, in suffering, failure, anything.
Speaker 3: So that helped me out a lot in staying full
Speaker 3: of hope and faith.
Speaker 1: That is so admirable. But as weeks turned two months
Speaker 1: turned to years, and you're not getting any traction, and
Speaker 1: we're gonna step into Cynthia, the degree of advocacy you
Speaker 1: did on your daughter's behalf But was there any time,
Speaker 1: Michelle that it just felt too much for you? Did
Speaker 1: you have a rock bottom moment?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Oh yeah.
Speaker 3: When I kept getting denied, I fouled my emotion for
Speaker 3: new trial.
Speaker 2: Had I think I had three.
Speaker 3: Different lawyers going back to court, lawyers just taking money.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely got discouraged.
Speaker 3: At one point, I remember going into my room and
Speaker 3: just getting on my knees and just crying out to God,
Speaker 3: just crying, crying, God.
Speaker 2: This can't be my life. I refuse to believe.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm just crying, crying, like Lord, I not this
Speaker 3: is not what you got for me. And I cry
Speaker 3: for a long time, the longest I've ever cried since
Speaker 3: I've been incarcerated. And I feel like that was my
Speaker 3: breaking point.
Speaker 1: Cynthia, there's a quote that you said that I would
Speaker 1: love for you to explain to me. Family members do
Speaker 1: that time with their loved ones. Have served every minute
Speaker 1: of these last thirteen years with Michelle.
Speaker 4: Yeah, people don't understand that the toll that it actually
Speaker 4: puts on the family from a different viewpoint. First of all,
Speaker 4: you carry around sometimes a shame, you don't want to
Speaker 4: talk about it. You have to make adjustments because of
Speaker 4: the money and stuff, so you might have to give
Speaker 4: up some things so that you know that you can
Speaker 4: make sure that she has provisions. I mean, you're feeling
Speaker 4: every ounce of that time in there as each day
Speaker 4: goes by. You not physically confined to bars, but the
Speaker 4: mental state of just going up there, and when you
Speaker 4: even visiting those doors shut, your reality begins to sink in.
Speaker 4: You have to deal with the fact thirty years, thirty years, well,
Speaker 4: I'd even be alive in thirty years, and that's just
Speaker 4: a minimum. So all of that, and then when someone
Speaker 4: says life in prison, there's so much uncertainty. You don't
Speaker 4: know what the next stay is going to bring. You
Speaker 4: don't know if it's gonna be thirty years, thirty five years,
Speaker 4: what it's gonna be. D're on like a track with
Speaker 4: two two rails. One side is joy and happiness, the
Speaker 4: other side is sorrow. The key is keeping balanced. If
Speaker 4: you lean too much to the joy, then you're like
Speaker 4: in denial. If you go too much to the sorrow,
Speaker 4: then you can come depressed. But you have to balance
Speaker 4: those tracks. Because I still had a daughter, grandchildren of life,
Speaker 4: a job that I had to manage. But then I
Speaker 4: had a daughter over here that I had to fight for.
Speaker 4: So it was a big balancing act.
Speaker 1: What for you was the toughest moment.
Speaker 4: Well, I had several tough moments. I can't say that
Speaker 4: the road was easy at all. I mean several times
Speaker 4: I had breakdowns. But I had a village that surrounded
Speaker 4: me that encouraged me. So when I was feeling like that,
Speaker 4: that was when I would get a card in the
Speaker 4: mail and then have some encouraging words, or somebody would
Speaker 4: say something to me at church. I remember one time
Speaker 4: I was at home and I was just so distraughty,
Speaker 4: dealing with lawyers and all of the system and all that,
Speaker 4: and I went to the grocery store and saw man
Speaker 4: with no legs and he was shopping and getting in
Speaker 4: the car, and it just it just did something to me, Like,
Speaker 4: you know, I got to start looking at what I
Speaker 4: do have and try to just be more positive about it.
Speaker 4: But I mean, it's heavy. Prison system is heavy, and
Speaker 4: the more I got into it or things I found
Speaker 4: out that were not right. There are things that are legal,
Speaker 4: but they're not right. And that became turn my pain
Speaker 4: into passion and my passion into purpose. So I had
Speaker 4: to begin to shift it.
Speaker 1: I love that, and you ended up turning to advocacy, Michelle.
Speaker 1: Inside you turned to academics. But was there a moment
Speaker 1: where You're like, I'm going to take this anger and
Speaker 1: this injustice and I'm going to turn it into action.
Speaker 3: God said, if I meet him halfway, he'll meet me
Speaker 3: the other way. So I knew I had to do everything.
Speaker 3: I engaged in an introspection. I went inside myself and
Speaker 3: I had to fix the creeks and crevices within Michelle
Speaker 3: to make sure I was going to become a better version.
Speaker 3: And that included knowing my value in my worth. And
Speaker 3: once I started learning myself all over again, reading self
Speaker 3: help book, taking classes, teaching classes, getting every education class
Speaker 3: that was offered, I started looking at the world different.
Speaker 3: My value changed, the people that I hung around changed,
Speaker 3: everything changed. I knew my purpose, I knew my reason
Speaker 3: for being there and had nothing to do with my crime.
Speaker 3: It had every reason to do with me becoming a
Speaker 3: woman that I needed to be inside of that throughout
Speaker 3: the environment.
Speaker 2: That was the plan for my life.
Speaker 1: Well, you did the work in two ways, because I
Speaker 1: love how you talk about self acceptance and self love
Speaker 1: and really learning to value your worth. But you also
Speaker 1: worked hard on your education. Can you just tell me
Speaker 1: about what you achieved educationally while you were incarcerated.
Speaker 3: I took every self help group they had, But on
Speaker 3: top of that, I took a basic theology course and
Speaker 3: I took advanced theology course. Got my associate's degree inside
Speaker 3: of prison, and I started my bachelor's degree while I
Speaker 3: was there. I also took some trades. I took auto
Speaker 3: mechanic computer class, and I graduated with my bachelor's degree
Speaker 3: when I got out of prison.
Speaker 1: And you didn't just graduate. You graduated with honors, if
Speaker 1: I'm not mistaken. And now you're working on your masters.
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean my master's in a positive psychology life culture.
Speaker 1: I love that. And now, in terms of your advocacy, Cynthia,
Speaker 1: it must have felt like you were up against an
Speaker 1: entire system, because you really were, and it's a system
Speaker 1: that you're absolutely right, is stacked against women like your daughter.
Speaker 1: Just some stats. According to the Sentencing Project, in the US,
Speaker 1: black women are locked up at one point six times
Speaker 1: the rate as white women, and since nineteen eighty the
Speaker 1: number of women in prison has risen five hundred and
Speaker 1: twenty five percent and enjoyed Georgia. Fifty percent of the
Speaker 1: women serving life sentences are black, and that's according to
Speaker 1: the National Black Women's Justice Institute. So you're realizing your
Speaker 1: eyes are open to these injustices in real time. How
Speaker 1: did you turn that anger into action?
Speaker 4: Well, it wasn't easy because it's happened in two thousand
Speaker 4: and nine, and for years I carried around shame. I
Speaker 4: didn't want to really share it with people. I didn't
Speaker 4: even want to share it with my church family, who
Speaker 4: I've been going to that church for thirty almost forty years.
Speaker 4: But there was just a small group that I did
Speaker 4: confide in and they kind of held me up. But
Speaker 4: a lot of people say they'll help you, but they
Speaker 4: don't end up not helping you. I had even a
Speaker 4: few pastors that would listen to my story so intently
Speaker 4: and say, oh, yeah, that is wrong, and I'm going
Speaker 4: to call you, and they would never call me back.
Speaker 4: So I felt like I was the long ranger. And
Speaker 4: then in two thousand and eighteen, I decided to go
Speaker 4: to an event. I was attending a lot of seminars
Speaker 4: and things like that, but this was one in Nashville, Tennessee,
Speaker 4: and it was actually put on by organization from United
Speaker 4: Methodist Church, and in this little group setting, I shared
Speaker 4: my story and I had never shared it in public
Speaker 4: like that, and it caught the attention of one of
Speaker 4: the ladies and they did a magazine article and then
Speaker 4: it was out. But then doors began to open up
Speaker 4: so big because I shared my story and from then
Speaker 4: it kind of just began to happen. But even to
Speaker 4: the point where someone found us on the internet. People
Speaker 4: beginning to help, paid for lawyers fees and just stepped
Speaker 4: up when they heard our story. So it was a process,
Speaker 4: not an easy one.
Speaker 1: And would you say that the turning tide for you
Speaker 1: was going and opening yourself up to that group of
Speaker 1: people in Nashville and telling your story.
Speaker 4: I think that's when things begin to turn. When that
Speaker 4: got published and people began to know about it, that's
Speaker 4: when other doors begin to open up. I found other avenues,
Speaker 4: other groups, people begin to donate, even to the fact
Speaker 4: that our last lawyer was paid for completely by a
Speaker 4: complete stranger that I didn't even know.
Speaker 1: Now I've read that for over a decade that you
Speaker 1: organized and protested for the creation of a conviction integrity
Speaker 1: unit in Fulton County, what was your driving mission and
Speaker 1: why do you feel that really should be the goal
Speaker 1: of every single county in Georgia and beyond.
Speaker 4: Well, Paul Howard was our previous district attorney here in
Speaker 4: Georgia who has been the district attorney for years and years,
Speaker 4: and he is the one that Michelle was sentenced under,
Speaker 4: and he was getting ready to be up for election.
Speaker 4: I didn't know how that was going to play out.
Speaker 4: So Paul Howard, he decides to get this integrity unit
Speaker 4: because that would make him look good because he's coming
Speaker 4: up for reelection. Well, needless did he know he did
Speaker 4: not win? And it must have been predestined because the
Speaker 4: new DA came to our church about a year before that,
Speaker 4: and when I talked to her, something in my spirit
Speaker 4: said she's going to be the one to help your daughter.
Speaker 4: So when she got elected as DA, we went to
Speaker 4: her and said, look, Paul Howard had this in place.
Speaker 4: Are you going to continue? And she said yes.
Speaker 1: And she's not just a DA, she's a rather famous
Speaker 1: one at this point on a national stage. But so,
Speaker 1: Fannie Willis, did you have a hope she would make
Speaker 1: real change?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 4: I know that she is a person about fairness, and
Speaker 4: about doing the right thing when it comes to the
Speaker 4: justice system. And I believe that she would come in
Speaker 4: and make the crooked places straight. And I think that's
Speaker 4: what she has been trying to do with his Integrity
Speaker 4: Task Force. My prayers that county in Georgia would adopt
Speaker 4: something like this and look at the cases because it's
Speaker 4: been going on too long, the over sentencing of people
Speaker 4: of color, people that are marginalized, and it's got to stop.
Speaker 4: And I got a real education in the justice system.
Speaker 4: It is not justice for all.
Speaker 1: And it's almost impossible to fight it on an individual basis.
Speaker 1: You really do need that oversight to see the systematic
Speaker 1: corruption that's going on and injustice. So after she was
Speaker 1: inaugurated in January twenty twenty one, Fannie Willis kept her
Speaker 1: campaign promise to prioritize the Integrity Unit and revisit cases
Speaker 1: including Michelle's. And Michelle, you were resentenced in July of
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one on one charge of attempted armed robbery,
Speaker 1: basically the original plea offer that was turned down. But
Speaker 1: by then, of course, you would already spend far more
Speaker 1: than five years behind bars. What did that mean to you?
Speaker 2: Both? Well?
Speaker 3: When I went back to court in July. It was unbelievable.
Speaker 3: The judge, Amy Maxwell, she is absolutely amazing. I thought
Speaker 3: she was my lawyer for a second, the way she
Speaker 3: talked so highly of me, And I was so excited
Speaker 3: once I heard the judge said, we're going to drop
Speaker 3: the life sentence. And I'm gonna be honest, No, I
Speaker 3: did not want to be reindicted for an armed robbery
Speaker 3: charge because my five year charge was criminal attempt to robbery,
Speaker 3: which is lesser than actual armed robbery. Armed robbery meaning
Speaker 3: you had a gun, and it's just it's a bad charge.
Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, I am thankful.
Speaker 3: I am thankful because it got me out and I
Speaker 3: know I can work to try to get my record.
Speaker 2: Expunged when I get off of parole. But it's so
Speaker 2: hard with that charge, that charge, it's hindering.
Speaker 1: It's a different kind of life sentence, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yes, it's double jeopardy. It's double jeopardy. I
Speaker 2: got out of that. Now I'm here and I can't
Speaker 2: rent from nobody.
Speaker 3: So when I got reindicted in twenty twenty one, it's
Speaker 3: showing up like I just committed the crime in twenty
Speaker 3: twenty one. It's not going back to two thousand and
Speaker 3: nine where I was originally charged. So people see that job,
Speaker 3: see that, places rent see that, and they'd be like, oh,
Speaker 3: this is a new charge.
Speaker 2: It's definitely a lot to.
Speaker 1: Deal with for the Conviction Integrity Unit. Was it really
Speaker 1: just a question of like laying it out for them
Speaker 1: and saying, do you think this is fairer? Was it
Speaker 1: just a question of getting her case reevaluated?
Speaker 4: Well you have to remember too, when they first started that,
Speaker 4: there were over one hundred cases to review, and what
Speaker 4: we heard was Michelle was weighed down at the bottom.
Speaker 4: But God sent us a lawyer that has that same
Speaker 4: don't give up spirit, and she was not going for it.
Speaker 4: When we met and I told her my story, she
Speaker 4: had this compassion. She immediately went to visit Michelle when
Speaker 4: other lawyers I paid a lot more money, didn't even
Speaker 4: do that. But she just was not going to give up.
Speaker 4: And I think she just kept getting in their face.
Speaker 4: So you got to look at this. You got to
Speaker 4: look at it. And when they looked at it, they
Speaker 4: begin to agree.
Speaker 1: Jenni's man is a formidable force of nature. I can
Speaker 1: see Michelle while you guys probably connected right away, and
Speaker 1: Cynthia you too. She actually sent me something today which
Speaker 1: I wanted to share with you because I think it
Speaker 1: speaks volumes. Michelle's case went to the Supreme Court of
Speaker 1: Georgia and the guilty verdict was upheld. Her case demonstrates
Speaker 1: why we need laws to support conviction integrity units and
Speaker 1: sentence review units. The court system as it stands doesn't
Speaker 1: always get it right. Second look reviews like the one
Speaker 1: done in Michelle's case not only give people a second chance,
Speaker 1: they put justice back in the court system. Cynthia never
Speaker 1: gave up hope on her daughter when the court slammed
Speaker 1: every door in her face. Her strength is admirable and
Speaker 1: I see it shining through Michelle. Together, we've achieved what
Speaker 1: many thought we couldn't. We overturned her life sentence, and
Speaker 1: now Michelle can help other young women to make better
Speaker 1: decisions in their lives too.
Speaker 4: Hi, man, that sums it up perfectly.
Speaker 1: So, Michelle. August twenty second, twenty twenty two, you were
Speaker 1: actually the first woman released from prison under Fulton's new
Speaker 1: Conviction Integrity Unit after serving thirteen years. How do you
Speaker 1: think you got through those thirteen years?
Speaker 3: My faith I'm a very spiritual person, my faith in God,
Speaker 3: my hope, of course my mom. Without her, it wouldn't
Speaker 3: have been possible.
Speaker 1: And how would you describe your relationship on the other
Speaker 1: side of this? What do you guys mean to wanty another?
Speaker 3: That's my baby, that's my heart, well everything, she's my baby.
Speaker 2: No doubt, it's sensitive talking about her every time.
Speaker 4: We'd like to travel together. So we've been getting some
Speaker 4: of that back. We've been taken two trips to Puerto Rico,
Speaker 4: and we've been doing things together. So we're still trying
Speaker 4: to get established. It hasn't been easy, but it's good
Speaker 4: because we can now talk to each other and see
Speaker 4: each other every day and we do.
Speaker 1: What advice would you both have for someone else who
Speaker 1: finds themselves in this situation? I know that Cynthia, in
Speaker 1: the process of advocating for Michelle, you came across many
Speaker 1: other families who, like you, were on their own trying
Speaker 1: to navigate getting through this process of getting their loved
Speaker 1: ones released. What advice do you believe ve is most
Speaker 1: valuable Having gone through everything that you've gone through, to.
Speaker 4: Not focus on my situation, but to get involved, to
Speaker 4: find out everything that I could to help myself. One
Speaker 4: of the seminars that went they called participatory defense. You
Speaker 4: must participate in your own defense. You cannot leave it
Speaker 4: up to a lawyer. You cannot leave it up to anyone.
Speaker 4: But you know yourself and you can fight for yourself
Speaker 4: better than anyone, So you have to get involved. Michelle
Speaker 4: did her part. She did not get in trouble. She
Speaker 4: became the best she could be. And my part was
Speaker 4: to participate and find out all the information I could
Speaker 4: to see what I could do to help my daughter.
Speaker 4: I would not accept no. Every door was closed in
Speaker 4: our face, every appeal, we were down to the wire.
Speaker 4: There was nothing less. But I knew there was going
Speaker 4: to be a way because I was not going to
Speaker 4: let it happen like that. If I had to go
Speaker 4: sit on the steps of the courthouse for seven and
Speaker 4: make a camp, I was just prepared to do anything.
Speaker 4: You have to have that mindset because they're gonna tell
Speaker 4: you no, because they're not looking out for your best interest.
Speaker 4: Everybody's looking out for them. So I would say, get involved,
Speaker 4: don't give up.
Speaker 1: Get involved, Michelle. Why is helping people who're still there
Speaker 1: resonate so deeply with you.
Speaker 3: Because I've met some of the most amazing people I've
Speaker 3: ever met in my life in there, some of the
Speaker 3: best friends.
Speaker 2: When you're down at your lowest point and you.
Speaker 3: Were able to build a friendship, a bond between each other,
Speaker 3: I feel like that's the most realist friendship you ever
Speaker 3: can have. So I have a lot of women down
Speaker 3: there that I truly love. If I can help them out,
Speaker 3: I will and advocate for them. It's a lot of
Speaker 3: women down there that's innocent, or they got too much time.
Speaker 3: They don't have no money, they don't have no helps,
Speaker 3: They're just sitting there with nobody. I want to be
Speaker 3: that person to help them any way that I can,
Speaker 3: whether I can advocate for them, whether I can support
Speaker 3: them mentally, spiritually, emotionally, anything that I can do for them,
Speaker 3: I'm gonna do it because I've been there before and
Speaker 3: I understand the struggle, and without a strong support system,
Speaker 3: it's so hard.
Speaker 2: It's so hard you can just ride away. So I'm thankful.
Speaker 3: So not only am I going to be the change
Speaker 3: that I want to see in the world, I'm going
Speaker 3: to give back that love and compassion that I received
Speaker 3: during that time, because I know it helped me.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco.
Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence organizations and go to the
Speaker 1: links in the episode description to see how you can
Speaker 1: get involved and how you can help. I'd like to
Speaker 1: thank our executive producers Jason Flam, Jeff Kempler, and Kevin Wardis,
Speaker 1: as well as our producers Annie Chelsea and Kathleen Fink.
Speaker 1: This series is produced, edited, and hosted by me Lauren
Speaker 1: Bright Pacheco. Our senior producer is Kara Kornhaber. Story editing
Speaker 1: by Hannah Bial, research by Shelby Sorels, mixing and sound
Speaker 1: designed by Jackie Pauley with additional production by Jeff Clyburn.
Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Jay Ralph. Be sure to
Speaker 1: follow us across all social media platforms at Lava for
Speaker 1: Good and at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me
Speaker 1: on all platforms at Lauren Bright Pacheco. Wrongful Conviction is
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