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Speaker 1: Tens of thousands of people incarcerated in the US have

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Speaker 1: been wrongfully convicted and are being held in captivity for crimes,

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Speaker 1: even as they adamantly maintain their innocence. What's it like

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Speaker 1: to be one of those imprisoned people, and what's it

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Speaker 1: like to be their ally, the one outside committed to

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Speaker 1: fighting for their freedom. I'm Lauren Bride Pacheco, and this

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Speaker 1: is wrongful conviction. Welcome to wrongful conviction. In two thousand

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Speaker 1: and nine, Michelle Morrison was convicted on a felony murder

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Speaker 1: charge along with aggravated assault, criminal attempt to commit armed robbery,

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Speaker 1: and conspiracy over a two thousand and seven shooting that

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Speaker 1: left a man dead. Now, what if I told you

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Speaker 1: that not only did Michelle not fire the weapon that

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Speaker 1: took the man's life, but she never even set foot

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Speaker 1: in the house where the shoe occurred. In fact, she

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Speaker 1: didn't even get out of the car. And yet Michelle Morrison,

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Speaker 1: at the age of twenty six, was sentenced to life

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Speaker 1: in prison plus five years. Her mother, Cynthia Holland, has

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Speaker 1: fought fiercely for her daughter's release, which finally occurred in

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Speaker 1: August of twenty twenty two, but only after Michelle spent

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Speaker 1: nearly thirteen years behind bars for a murder she did

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Speaker 1: not commit. Cynthia truly moved mountains to get her daughter

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Speaker 1: out of prison and in the process brought about real

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Speaker 1: reform in the Georgia justice system. And we'll get into

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Speaker 1: exactly how she went about that, but first, Michelle Morrison

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Speaker 1: and Cynthia Holland, Welcome to Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Lauren Hi, thank you for having.

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Speaker 1: Us wonderful listen. Before we get into the event that

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Speaker 1: left you in prison for thirteen years, I just want

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Speaker 1: to find out a little bit more about you, Mischae

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Speaker 1: as a person, your upbringing, where you grew up, what

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Speaker 1: kind of a child you were, and your mom's here

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Speaker 1: to keep you on us.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 3: I grew up in Atlanta. My mom and dad were

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Speaker 3: married till I was five. I had a lot of energy.

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Speaker 3: I was more like a tomboy. I loved to hang

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Speaker 3: out with my uncle Joey. That was like my big brother.

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Speaker 3: I would ride a scooter, be in the trees, be everywhere.

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Speaker 3: I just I was real active. I had a lot

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Speaker 3: of energy.

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Speaker 2: In school, I was a happy kid.

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Speaker 1: What made you happy? What was your favorite music? What

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Speaker 1: were your favorite things to do.

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Speaker 3: Ooh, my favorite music Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson and my

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Speaker 3: favorite thing. When I became I was like, how old

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Speaker 3: was I when I was in Girl Scouts? I think

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Speaker 3: I was in the fourth or fifth grade. But that

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Speaker 3: was my favorite thing. My mom was the leader and

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Speaker 3: I got to do everything. It was like I was

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Speaker 3: the mini leader because she was in charge. So I

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Speaker 3: had We went to the zoo to spend the night.

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Speaker 3: We went, we had sleepovers. It was fun selling cookies. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: that was really fun.

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Speaker 1: I'm a Samoa girl and nuts.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 1: So by your teens, from being a Girl Scout, you

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Speaker 1: kind of took a bit of a different path and

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Speaker 1: some of the decisions that you were making at the

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Speaker 1: time might have put you at odds with your mom.

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Speaker 3: Well, the area that we was in, I really didn't

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Speaker 3: care for my school.

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Speaker 2: I just didn't like my school. It wasn't really productive.

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Speaker 3: I had friends that went to some of the better schools,

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Speaker 3: but I couldn't go there first because I didn't stay

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Speaker 3: in the area. I didn't have the address, and then

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Speaker 3: my mom couldn't take me there because it was far.

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Speaker 3: So I kind of just didn't like school at all.

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Speaker 3: I'd be the person that to get finished with my

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Speaker 3: work and disrupt everybody in class then get in trouble.

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Speaker 3: I started kind of like falling back from school till

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Speaker 3: eventually I dropped out of school and I started hanging

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Speaker 3: out with some kids that one of the best kids

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Speaker 3: in the world, But you know, I started hanging out

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Speaker 3: with them because I thought they were cool.

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Speaker 1: Was that difficult for you, Cynthia, I mean, having been

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Speaker 1: the girls Scout leader to kind of having a rebellious

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Speaker 1: daughter on your hands.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, needless to say, it was. But I had two daughters,

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Speaker 4: and it's amazing how you can have two children and

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Speaker 4: they can grow up exactly the same and then go

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Speaker 4: in different directions. So on one hand, I had one daughter

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Speaker 4: that was doing everything in school and loved school, and

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Speaker 4: the other hand, another daughter that was rebelling and was

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Speaker 4: just kind of going through that teenage stuff. A lot

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Speaker 4: of it was because we didn't have a lot of

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Speaker 4: the resources back then to help. When you're being a

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Speaker 4: single parent trying to raise two children, trying to work

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Speaker 4: and everything, it was tough. It was tough.

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Speaker 1: What was the age difference? The age difference between you

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Speaker 1: and your sister.

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Speaker 2: Michelle years she's older than me.

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Speaker 1: You know, sometimes it's it's easier to go the opposite

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Speaker 1: direction of an older sibling, particularly if they're hitting all

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Speaker 1: the high notes. It's a little easier to not follow

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Speaker 1: in their steps sometimes. How old were you when your

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Speaker 1: parents got divorced.

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Speaker 3: I was five, and that took That took a toll

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Speaker 3: on me because I was a daddy's girl and we.

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Speaker 2: Were super close, super close.

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Speaker 3: So when they did get divorced, you know, I understand

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Speaker 3: what was going on. He moved to another state and

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Speaker 3: I had to wait till summer breaks or Christmas breaks

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Speaker 3: to see him.

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Speaker 2: So, yeah, they're right there. You know, that hurt me

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Speaker 2: real bad. You know, I wanted my dad.

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Speaker 1: So by the time you got your teens or obviously

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Speaker 1: have different priorities than your older sister and a bit

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Speaker 1: at odds with your mom. But what were your goals,

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Speaker 1: your thoughts about the future.

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Speaker 3: I wanted to I always wanted to work in a

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Speaker 3: medical field from when I was young. It went from

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Speaker 3: a brain surgeon to a heart surgeon. So when I

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Speaker 3: realized I'm not doing at at school, to a pediatrician.

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Speaker 3: Then it went to an rin and that was the

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Speaker 3: final thing that I was going to do, but I

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Speaker 3: ended up enrolling in the CAB tech for a licensed

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Speaker 3: practical nurse. I went almost a year and I couldn't

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Speaker 3: stay focused because I was dancing in the nightclubs and

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Speaker 3: I was so tired trying to go to work and

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Speaker 3: trying to go to college. And then when I got

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Speaker 3: to math, math has always been my hertes subject and

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Speaker 3: it just was frustrating me. I already couldn't focus, so

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Speaker 3: I ended up dropping out of the cap tick.

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Speaker 1: And so that takes us about to the time when

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Speaker 1: this unfolded. How was that time period in terms of

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Speaker 1: your relationship, Cynthia, were you guys strained before this happened.

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Speaker 4: I was a little disappointed about the things that she

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Speaker 4: was doing. I even remember in my Bible study group

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Speaker 4: we were giving prayer request and I mentioned pray for

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Speaker 4: my daughter because she grew up in the church. She

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Speaker 4: was acculate, she loved the church, and now she's taken

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Speaker 4: another path. And I remember the pastor telling me, don't

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Speaker 4: get so down because you're feeling like you're a bad

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Speaker 4: mother and it's not because of that, and he tried

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Speaker 4: to encourage me, and I was able to release it,

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Speaker 4: and I begin to say well, God, this is your child.

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Speaker 4: What are you going to do with her? I just prayed.

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Speaker 4: And my grandmother, who bless her so has gone on

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Speaker 4: to heaven. She would say, She'll probably be the one

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Speaker 4: to surprise you, because when she was young, she would

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Speaker 4: just do things and say things that were just amazing.

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Speaker 4: So I knew it was inside of her, and I

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Speaker 4: think that's why all of this adversity hit her like

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Speaker 4: it did, and she went through that to become who

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Speaker 4: she is now.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, And in terms of that adversity before this incident,

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Speaker 1: had you had any substantial runnings with the law.

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Speaker 3: Well, I had got on probation and end up going

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Speaker 3: to juvenile for not going to school. As my I

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Speaker 3: guess my punishment, they sent me to a wolderness camp

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Speaker 3: where I had to go for I think it was

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Speaker 3: six weeks where I had to go stay out into

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Speaker 3: the woods and it was so horrible and I remember

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Speaker 3: getting bait up by jiggers.

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Speaker 2: Oh it was. It was terrible. It was terrible.

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Speaker 3: And I told my mom, I said, oh, I'm not

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Speaker 3: I'm going to school. I'm not going to do this

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Speaker 3: no more. Like my mom was like okay, okay, okay.

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Speaker 3: I was like I'm not gonna do it no more.

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Speaker 3: So that's what happened.

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Speaker 1: Then, in retrospect, those bug bites probably didn't seem as

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Speaker 1: bad as what ended up happening. So take me to

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Speaker 1: the night of June eleventh, two thousand and seven, when

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Speaker 1: all of this went down. Seems almost like a series

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Speaker 1: of bad decisions that snowballed.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 3: So, while I was dancing, I did abuse pills. I

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Speaker 3: had a pill habit. They make you hang around people

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Speaker 3: that you think are your friends, and really the whole

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Speaker 3: time they're not your friends. It's the worst thing ever

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Speaker 3: in the world. But I had a friend that I've

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Speaker 3: been knowing for years, and she sold drugs and she

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Speaker 3: had an escort service. We've been friends, probably before I

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Speaker 3: start dancing. We were friends and we were cool, like

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Speaker 3: she never owned the vehicle. I always give her rides

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Speaker 3: to places or let her borrow my car. On this

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Speaker 3: particular night, she asked me for a ride to pick

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Speaker 3: up some money that was old to her. She wanted

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Speaker 3: the two guys to go with her because the guy

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Speaker 3: was dodging her phone calls and he owed her money

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Speaker 3: and she needed her money.

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Speaker 2: And I drove her there.

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Speaker 3: She used my phone acting like her phone was dead

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Speaker 3: the whole time. I drove my car with my driver

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Speaker 3: license plates retro to my name.

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Speaker 2: Everything is to my name.

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Speaker 3: I mean, if I was going to commit a crime,

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Speaker 3: I would never let her use my my phone and

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Speaker 3: traced me. I would have never drove my car to

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Speaker 3: register straight back to my house. But once again, when

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Speaker 3: you're on heavy pills, none of that matters. You're not

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Speaker 3: even really paying attention what's going on in the car.

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Speaker 3: You're just driving. So the two guys get out the

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Speaker 3: car and I guess they go in. Me and her

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Speaker 3: talking the whole time. After they've been out for a second,

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Speaker 3: one of the other guys came in and got in

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Speaker 3: a car, breathing hard, you know, saying I don't know

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Speaker 3: what happened. I don't know if my boy shot this

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Speaker 3: guy or the guy shot him. And I'm looking like,

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Speaker 3: what are you talking about?

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Speaker 2: Shot what?

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Speaker 3: So he's had one foot in, one foot out. I'm

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Speaker 3: dropped about to drive off, and he's like, I can't

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Speaker 3: leave my boy. He get out the car. I ended

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Speaker 3: up leaving because I didn't even know the man was dead.

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Speaker 3: I didn't know nothing.

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Speaker 1: How did you find that out? The next day?

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Speaker 3: So when I was going to go pick up my

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Speaker 3: contacts from the eyeglass place, the GBI pulled me over

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Speaker 3: and said they wanted to talk to me.

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Speaker 1: So that's when you first realized that you were caught

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Speaker 1: up in all of us, that you were now part

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Speaker 1: of the investigation.

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Speaker 3: It took me to the police station and they had

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Speaker 3: me and my friend up there for a few hours.

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Speaker 3: They impounded my car and they let us go.

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Speaker 1: And when did you loop your mom that all of

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Speaker 1: this was unfolding.

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Speaker 4: Actually, I didn't find out for quite some time because

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Speaker 4: my father, who was living in Alabama, was killed in

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Speaker 4: a car accident on June seventh, two thousand and nine.

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Speaker 4: So I was preparing a funeral, driving back and forth

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Speaker 4: to Huntsville, trying to secure his belongings and stuff. So

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Speaker 4: I was wondering why when Michelle came to the funeral,

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Speaker 4: she didn't have a vehicle, and she just told me

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Speaker 4: that it was in the shop or something. I still

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Speaker 4: didn't know until they actually knocked on my door, the

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Speaker 4: GBI and said that they were looking for her about

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Speaker 4: a homicide, and my heart just fell out. And the

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Speaker 4: GBI can remember him, you know, he was very calm,

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Speaker 4: He was very nice about it. He didn't believe that

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Speaker 4: she was guilty of it, he assured me, because I

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Speaker 4: was like in tears. He said, if you know where

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Speaker 4: she is, just tell her to turn herself in. And

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Speaker 4: I immediately called her, and that's what we did. I said,

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Speaker 4: get it straightened out, but we're not gonna run or

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Speaker 4: disregard this.

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Speaker 1: So you turned yourself in willingly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: It was right after the incident, and I was like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna do the right thing. I don't have no

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Speaker 3: reason to run.

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Speaker 1: What was that time period like for you, from the

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Speaker 1: time you got the knock on the door of Cynthia.

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Speaker 1: Did you think that it was just a formality and

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Speaker 1: you'd go in, get questioned and leave.

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Speaker 4: No. I thought it was serious. Matter of fact, I

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Speaker 4: begin to make in preparations. I went to a bondsman

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Speaker 4: to try to prepare for bail. I got things set up.

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Speaker 4: They told me that with those types of charges that

251
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Speaker 4: it would probably be serious and a very high bail.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I was scrambling trying to make sure that

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Speaker 4: I could try to not let her go to that

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Speaker 4: awful jail. All the things I saw on TV and

255
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Speaker 4: going people going to jail and getting killed. I mean,

256
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Speaker 4: all kinds of things was running through my head.

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Speaker 1: And so Michelle, what was going through your head when

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Speaker 1: you walked in to turn yourself in?

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Speaker 2: Well, I was so afraid. I was so afraid.

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Speaker 3: And I sat there for about a week inside of

261
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Speaker 3: the county jail till I got my bond here, and

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Speaker 3: I was scared. I had the same perception of prison

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Speaker 3: that my mama did, Like I couldn't imagine my self

264
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Speaker 3: in there for five minutes, let alone thirteen years. So

265
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Speaker 3: I was nervous. But thankfully God had me with a

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Speaker 3: good bunkie because we were praying together and stuff.

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Speaker 1: How did the detectives treat you initially off the bat?

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Speaker 1: Did you have a lawyer when you were first interrogated?

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Speaker 3: Nope, And I can honestly say the GBI were very, very,

270
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Speaker 3: very nice to me. They were trying to help me out,

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Speaker 3: like they wanted me to help them. They wanted my

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Speaker 3: co defend. But I didn't know where she was. She ran,

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Speaker 3: she was on a run. I couldn't help you find

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Speaker 3: her because she was running for me too. I don't

275
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Speaker 3: know where she was.

276
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Speaker 1: So yeah, I think there was even an America's Most

277
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Speaker 1: Wanted episode about her.

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Speaker 2: Yeah it was.

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Speaker 4: And when we went to court for her bond hearing,

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Speaker 4: I brought members from my church. We had three rows

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Speaker 4: of people that stood up for her, and the judge

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Speaker 4: ended up giving her a bond of one thousand dollars cash.

283
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Speaker 4: When I called back the bond's company and said, sir,

284
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Speaker 4: I don't need you. My daughter just got one thousand

285
00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:06,800
Speaker 4: dollar cash bond and I can pay that, he said, lady,

286
00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:09,320
Speaker 4: you're crazy. Nobody gets it. I said, I'm telling you,

287
00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,080
Speaker 4: that's what the judge says. My daughter's walking out. And

288
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Speaker 4: she walked for two years. There was no evidence. The

289
00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,560
Speaker 4: GBI said that they were astonished that they she was

290
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Speaker 4: even indicted because there was no physical evidence against her.

291
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Speaker 1: So those two years must have been kind of like

292
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Speaker 1: having raincloud following you because you're still not in the clearer.

293
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Speaker 1: And so when did the plea deal first come on

294
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Speaker 1: the table? What were you offered and who offered it?

295
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Speaker 3: I was offered five years, and that came from the

296
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Speaker 3: DA at the time. I was offered five years to

297
00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:54,400
Speaker 3: turn state on the other two guys that were there.

298
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Speaker 2: So I had two lawyers.

299
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Speaker 3: I had the lawyer that I hired that I kind

300
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,040
Speaker 3: of knew, so I kind of trusted him more. And

301
00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,000
Speaker 3: then he hired on another lawyer as a partner, so

302
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Speaker 3: it was like I had doctor Jeko on Hide.

303
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Speaker 2: The lawyer I hired, he was like, we're gonna fight.

304
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Speaker 2: You're gonna win this.

305
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Speaker 4: La la la la.

306
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Speaker 3: The lawyer that I didn't hire, he was like, I

307
00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:17,600
Speaker 3: was a prosecutor before. Take no five years. We know

308
00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:18,920
Speaker 3: you didn't do nothing, but you was there at the

309
00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,280
Speaker 3: scene of the crime. This is Georgia. Their laws are crazy.

310
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Speaker 3: So I'm having these two people in my head at

311
00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,040
Speaker 3: this time, and I'm like, oh my god, I don't

312
00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:27,520
Speaker 3: know Georgia laws. I ain't never been no serious trouble

313
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Speaker 3: like this. So I'm like, I'm finna fight for my life.

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Speaker 3: That's all I seen, That's all I can see. I'm

315
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Speaker 3: finna fight.

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Speaker 1: Well, I can imagine if you got a thousand dollars bond,

317
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Speaker 1: you probably felt that roll the dice. You're innocent, you

318
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Speaker 1: didn't do it, So why would you take five years

319
00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:49,880
Speaker 1: and testify against people when you weren't at the scene

320
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Speaker 1: of the murder.

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Speaker 4: Well, I, like Michelle, did not understand the system. I

322
00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:59,920
Speaker 4: wasn't clear when they said five years would she be

323
00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,880
Speaker 4: saying five years to murder, and.

324
00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:06,359
Speaker 1: It seems like, Michelle, you were getting really conflicting legal

325
00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:08,920
Speaker 1: advice heading into that trial too.

326
00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:10,280
Speaker 2: I wasn't.

327
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Speaker 3: Also, I had just enrolled into Georgia Perimeter for the

328
00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,160
Speaker 3: summer course. I was going to start the RIN program.

329
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Speaker 3: So in my mind, I didn't know they was going

330
00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:19,760
Speaker 3: to drop my charge to a list of charge. They

331
00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:22,040
Speaker 3: did not explain the five years. I'm thinking, I'm still

332
00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:23,720
Speaker 3: gonna have this murder charge. I'm like, I ain't gonna

333
00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:25,719
Speaker 3: be getting to college with his murder charge. These are

334
00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:27,679
Speaker 3: the thoughts going in my head. So I'm like, I'm

335
00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:29,320
Speaker 3: trying to go back to school and do the right thing.

336
00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,520
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh god, oh no, no, no, no, So

337
00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:33,120
Speaker 3: I didn't I didn't understand it.

338
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,080
Speaker 1: But that said, by the time you're heading into trial,

339
00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,240
Speaker 1: you're making steps to get your life back into order

340
00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:44,760
Speaker 1: and take me to the trial. What did it feel

341
00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:47,879
Speaker 1: like sitting in that courtroom and how did you feel

342
00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,840
Speaker 1: things were going for you? Michelle?

343
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Speaker 3: Oh, well, I can remember. I remember bits and pieces

344
00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:58,080
Speaker 3: of it. Being so scared. I still was abusing appeals.

345
00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,240
Speaker 3: I wasn't really in my right mind. I just wanted

346
00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:01,760
Speaker 3: to be numb.

347
00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,960
Speaker 2: I'm so scared. I really didn't want to be there.

348
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Speaker 3: So the whole time, I'm just listening to the case,

349
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,639
Speaker 3: and I'm listening to all the evidence against my co defendents,

350
00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:16,639
Speaker 3: listening to their extensive criminal history, and it felt weird,

351
00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,639
Speaker 3: like I didn't belong there. I just felt crazy the

352
00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:20,440
Speaker 3: whole time.

353
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Speaker 1: And it's two years after any event happened, and so

354
00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:31,040
Speaker 1: it's April of twenty oh nine, Cynthia. Were you there

355
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Speaker 1: during the trials?

356
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Speaker 4: I was there every day. Me and one of my

357
00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,959
Speaker 4: prayer partners sat there in the courtroom, listened to all

358
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,560
Speaker 4: the testimony. And that's why it was so devastating, because

359
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:46,159
Speaker 4: the testimony never really had anything solid, and you think

360
00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:48,639
Speaker 4: for somebody to get a life sentence, you would have

361
00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,760
Speaker 4: to have a little bit more concrete evidence. Plus there

362
00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:55,480
Speaker 4: were several times that I ran into the judge shopping

363
00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,440
Speaker 4: at the grocery store, and one time he was right

364
00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,040
Speaker 4: in front of me in the line and he says,

365
00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,560
Speaker 4: aren't you the mother of the girl that's on trial?

366
00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:08,000
Speaker 4: And I said, yes, tell her to take the plea deal.

367
00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,520
Speaker 4: Tell her to take the plea deal. And I got

368
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:14,160
Speaker 4: nervous because I didn't think judges were supposed to talk

369
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,800
Speaker 4: to you about that, and it really made me nervous

370
00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:18,919
Speaker 4: more now about the plea deal, and I was like,

371
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,440
Speaker 4: are they trying to set us up? Or what I mean?

372
00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:23,840
Speaker 4: So many things kept going through my mind because I

373
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:24,840
Speaker 4: was so unsure.

374
00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:29,480
Speaker 1: Wow, and he was giving you a heads up because

375
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,560
Speaker 1: I don't even think that could have prepared you guys

376
00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:35,960
Speaker 1: for the verdict. So take me to the exact moment

377
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,200
Speaker 1: that the verdict is delivered, Michelle.

378
00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:44,840
Speaker 3: Oh, well, they delivered my co defense verdict first, and.

379
00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:48,840
Speaker 2: I was like, oh god, they said guilty.

380
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,440
Speaker 3: So then when they came back to mine and said guilty,

381
00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:56,639
Speaker 3: I felt like I felt like I've been stabbed, and

382
00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:00,359
Speaker 3: it's just I was shocked. I didn't know what to do,

383
00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,840
Speaker 3: what to say, and the judge looked at me and

384
00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:07,560
Speaker 3: he was like, I tried to tell this young lady,

385
00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,360
Speaker 3: you know he please file your appeals like you can

386
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,560
Speaker 3: tell everybody felt so bad. I remember a lady in

387
00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,639
Speaker 3: the jury. She was crying. I guess they didn't realize.

388
00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:18,080
Speaker 3: I don't even know if the jury was told I

389
00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:20,199
Speaker 3: was offered five years because they said it. After I

390
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,639
Speaker 3: got the verdict came down, I was offered five years.

391
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:29,080
Speaker 3: So yeah, I was in total shock and disbelief. I

392
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:33,080
Speaker 3: I didn't even understand what was going on, total disbelief.

393
00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:35,080
Speaker 1: Were you sentenced right there?

394
00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:37,680
Speaker 2: And then yeah? So it was right there and then

395
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:39,160
Speaker 2: life plus five years.

396
00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:43,160
Speaker 4: Yes he said life plus five, but I'm gonna suspend

397
00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,680
Speaker 4: the five but still life in Georgia. At the time,

398
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,440
Speaker 4: she was convicted as a minimum of thirty years.

399
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:53,760
Speaker 1: That's a long time, so thirty before parole, right.

400
00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:55,280
Speaker 4: Before they even look at you.

401
00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:01,960
Speaker 3: When I look, I heard my mama crying. I've never

402
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,240
Speaker 3: heard her cry like that before, so that hurt me

403
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,919
Speaker 3: more than anything because she's such a strong woman, and

404
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,520
Speaker 3: hear her cry just brought my heart.

405
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:16,480
Speaker 1: So you're twenty six years old, but you're still your

406
00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:22,439
Speaker 1: mom's baby, Cynthia. I can't even fathom what that felt

407
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:23,120
Speaker 1: like as a mother.

408
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,600
Speaker 4: It was like I was in the twilight zone or something.

409
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,119
Speaker 4: And it happened to be the day that all those

410
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:34,080
Speaker 4: days my girlfriend sat with me, but that particular morning

411
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 4: I was there alone. I just became hysterical. I just

412
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:41,280
Speaker 4: couldn't believe it. It's like someone had taken my heart

413
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:43,359
Speaker 4: and ripped it out of my chest and just was

414
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:49,280
Speaker 4: stamping on it. I was feeling everything lost, hurt, betrayed.

415
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:54,080
Speaker 4: I went to a courthouse where we claimed justice for all,

416
00:21:54,600 --> 00:22:02,280
Speaker 4: but it's justice for some. I felt I was discriminated against.

417
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:06,960
Speaker 4: I felt like their main goal was to win a case.

418
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,679
Speaker 4: They did not care who Michelle was. They did not

419
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:11,720
Speaker 4: care any of that.

420
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:17,159
Speaker 3: During that time, I heard a voice. When I was

421
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,520
Speaker 3: sitting up there, I heard a voice whisper m and

422
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:21,360
Speaker 3: I thought it was my lawyer at first, but when

423
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,480
Speaker 3: I looked and and I seen he wasn't talking to me.

424
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,720
Speaker 3: A voice whisper and say you're not gonna do a

425
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:28,760
Speaker 3: life sentence, but you gotta go through this to become

426
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:32,000
Speaker 3: the woman that you need to be. And later on

427
00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:33,800
Speaker 3: I knew it was God. But at that time, I

428
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:35,120
Speaker 3: just was like, who said that?

429
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:35,720
Speaker 2: Who said that?

430
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,199
Speaker 3: And I'm looking around and looking at my mom, and

431
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 3: everybody was crying, actually all my friends and family in church.

432
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 3: Everybody was crying. And I I remember saying, you know,

433
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:49,600
Speaker 3: i'm'a be okay. God got me, and that voice stuck

434
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,280
Speaker 3: with me, the voice. I took the voice all the

435
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:56,040
Speaker 3: way to prison cause I believed that voice.

436
00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,240
Speaker 4: They actually carried me out of the court room. Fat

437
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:05,440
Speaker 4: hands and feet. I sat in the lobby of the

438
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,480
Speaker 4: courtroom and I just kind of waited. When I left

439
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:13,160
Speaker 4: there to go to my car, I was I could

440
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,320
Speaker 4: hear people talking around me, but it was like I

441
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 4: wasn't there, and I was just crying the whole way

442
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 4: to my car. And I could hear people saying, are

443
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 4: you all right, ma'am?

444
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:24,680
Speaker 2: Are you all right, ma'am?

445
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,400
Speaker 4: And it was like they were talking, but I couldn't

446
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 4: grasp it, and I just kept walking. I got to

447
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 4: my car. I probably cried all the way home. For

448
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,879
Speaker 4: the first few months, tears were my food, and it

449
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 4: was just a lot of crying and a lot of

450
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 4: just I didn't know what to do, kind of just

451
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 4: in a state of disbelief.

452
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 1: You're listening to Wrongful Conviction with Lauren Bright Pacheco. You

453
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:58,920
Speaker 1: can listen to this and all the LoVa for Good

454
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,879
Speaker 1: podcasts one week early and ad free by subscribing to

455
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 1: Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. So where were you?

456
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,200
Speaker 1: Where were you? Signed? Michelle?

457
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,719
Speaker 2: I was sent to Metro State Prison.

458
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 1: What was the biggest hurdle for you transitioning to life

459
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 1: in prison?

460
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:37,440
Speaker 3: Hmmm, oh wow, just everything. I don't know what was

461
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 3: the biggest. They all were big to me, having to

462
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:46,159
Speaker 3: live with people who I don't know who. Some are evil,

463
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 3: some are good. Just being around these people that I

464
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 3: deemed as crazy when I first got there because I

465
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,159
Speaker 3: didn't know, Like my perception of prison in jail was like,

466
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 3: oh my god, like everybody think it's murderous here, so

467
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,919
Speaker 3: you know, just trying to adjust to that and trying

468
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 3: to I guess fit in having to be in a

469
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,159
Speaker 3: room with somebody, share the same bathroom, sleep on the

470
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 3: hard bed, where the same outfit every day, the socks,

471
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 3: everything it would, I mean, everything was big to me

472
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 3: because it was like a world that I couldn't even

473
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 3: fantom like I never never would imagine being in a

474
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:32,119
Speaker 3: place like that, So everything was adjustment. Like when I

475
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,159
Speaker 3: got there, my mom always make sure I have store

476
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,159
Speaker 3: because if you cannot live off, you live off that food.

477
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 2: I would never eat.

478
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,119
Speaker 3: So and I'm a sweet person, so people see that

479
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,439
Speaker 3: they try to take advantage of you, so they always

480
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,439
Speaker 3: asking for stuff and I'm always giving it to them

481
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 3: cause I'm used to being nice.

482
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 2: I'm used to sharing. I'm used to having things, so

483
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 2: I don't mind sharing.

484
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 3: So I remember the mental health counselor pulling me in

485
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,920
Speaker 3: there and saying, listen, if you keep sharing, I'm gonna

486
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,160
Speaker 3: write you up. You're in prison. Can you understand where

487
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 3: you're at. You're not at home. You gonna look at

488
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 3: you as week take advantage of you. You need to

489
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 3: stop doing it. And I'm like, I'm just being myself this.

490
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 3: She was like, well, you're gonna have to do something

491
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 3: different because it's not gonna work in this environment.

492
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:12,880
Speaker 1: So when was the next time that you guys got

493
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 1: to see one another physically, Cynthia? And what was that

494
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 1: like to see your daughter behind bars?

495
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 4: The hardest part was leaving her and seeing her in there.

496
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 4: And of course every time you go to visitation, it's

497
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 4: a whole other set of drama. I hate the process,

498
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,439
Speaker 4: the way you're treated, the things you have to go through.

499
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 4: They act like you have committed a crime. So the

500
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 4: county jail, luckily she didn't stay there, and then it

501
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 4: was a facility that wasn't too far from home, like

502
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 4: twenty minutes away, so that we could come pretty regularly.

503
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 4: But again I had to go through the process with

504
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 4: the guards. Some of them were very, very mean, but

505
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 4: as I begin to treat them, in a certain way.

506
00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 4: They begin to treat me in a better way, and

507
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 4: a lot of them I became good friends with towards

508
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 4: the end. But visitation process is horrible.

509
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 1: How did that change the relationship that you two had,

510
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 1: because suddenly it's not just as easy as picking up

511
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 1: the phone whenever you want or popping by for a visit.

512
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 1: How did it change the way in which you guys

513
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,400
Speaker 1: had to communicate Cynthia.

514
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 4: Well, it was difficult because visitation was limited, and then

515
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 4: they always changed stuff as you go along. Phone calls

516
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 4: were limited, and prison is expensive. It is a racket.

517
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,159
Speaker 4: I mean, we spent more money in those years with

518
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:40,360
Speaker 4: phone calls packages. They charge you for everything. So it's

519
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 4: just a frustrating thing because you even through visitation, the

520
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,120
Speaker 4: vending machines, the stuff is like a two hundred percent markup,

521
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 4: and then you take your chance when you put your

522
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 4: money in there that you might get some food and

523
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 4: you might not, and then it could be spoiled and

524
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 4: it could not and you won't get your money back.

525
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,640
Speaker 4: But that's all you can do during that little time frame.

526
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 4: They gave you communication, You could write letters and stuff.

527
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 4: But all of that, there were times when I would

528
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 4: send a simple Christmas card. They sent it back two times,

529
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 4: but they would never tell me why. They would just

530
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 4: keep sending it back and I keep sending it back,

531
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 4: and it was just like, you don't know the rules

532
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 4: till you break the rules. But then sometimes they never

533
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 4: tell you the rules because they change depending on who's

534
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:21,880
Speaker 4: on duty.

535
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: And they change them whether or not it's sparkle or

536
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 1: glitter or you never know what's acceptable or what's not.

537
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 1: So there's the physical inconvenience in trying to meet your

538
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 1: daughter's needs in terms of just basic necessities, but then

539
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: there's also the emotional toll that having to go visit

540
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 1: or to have a visitor come in. That must have

541
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 1: been really difficult on both of you.

542
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 3: I just always try to be positive and try to

543
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 3: see the meaning behind everything I try to.

544
00:28:58,480 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 2: Learn.

545
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 3: It's always a lesson and in everything, in suffering, failure, anything.

546
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 3: So that helped me out a lot in staying full

547
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 3: of hope and faith.

548
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 1: That is so admirable. But as weeks turned two months

549
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: turned to years, and you're not getting any traction, and

550
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 1: we're gonna step into Cynthia, the degree of advocacy you

551
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,959
Speaker 1: did on your daughter's behalf But was there any time,

552
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: Michelle that it just felt too much for you? Did

553
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 1: you have a rock bottom moment?

554
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Oh yeah.

555
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 3: When I kept getting denied, I fouled my emotion for

556
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 3: new trial.

557
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 2: Had I think I had three.

558
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 3: Different lawyers going back to court, lawyers just taking money.

559
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely got discouraged.

560
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 3: At one point, I remember going into my room and

561
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 3: just getting on my knees and just crying out to God,

562
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 3: just crying, crying, God.

563
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 2: This can't be my life. I refuse to believe.

564
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm just crying, crying, like Lord, I not this

565
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 3: is not what you got for me. And I cry

566
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 3: for a long time, the longest I've ever cried since

567
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 3: I've been incarcerated. And I feel like that was my

568
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 3: breaking point.

569
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 1: Cynthia, there's a quote that you said that I would

570
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 1: love for you to explain to me. Family members do

571
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: that time with their loved ones. Have served every minute

572
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,719
Speaker 1: of these last thirteen years with Michelle.

573
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, people don't understand that the toll that it actually

574
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 4: puts on the family from a different viewpoint. First of all,

575
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 4: you carry around sometimes a shame, you don't want to

576
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 4: talk about it. You have to make adjustments because of

577
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 4: the money and stuff, so you might have to give

578
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 4: up some things so that you know that you can

579
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 4: make sure that she has provisions. I mean, you're feeling

580
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 4: every ounce of that time in there as each day

581
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 4: goes by. You not physically confined to bars, but the

582
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 4: mental state of just going up there, and when you

583
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 4: even visiting those doors shut, your reality begins to sink in.

584
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 4: You have to deal with the fact thirty years, thirty years, well,

585
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 4: I'd even be alive in thirty years, and that's just

586
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 4: a minimum. So all of that, and then when someone

587
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 4: says life in prison, there's so much uncertainty. You don't

588
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 4: know what the next stay is going to bring. You

589
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 4: don't know if it's gonna be thirty years, thirty five years,

590
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 4: what it's gonna be. D're on like a track with

591
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 4: two two rails. One side is joy and happiness, the

592
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 4: other side is sorrow. The key is keeping balanced. If

593
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 4: you lean too much to the joy, then you're like

594
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 4: in denial. If you go too much to the sorrow,

595
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 4: then you can come depressed. But you have to balance

596
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 4: those tracks. Because I still had a daughter, grandchildren of life,

597
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,719
Speaker 4: a job that I had to manage. But then I

598
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 4: had a daughter over here that I had to fight for.

599
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 4: So it was a big balancing act.

600
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: What for you was the toughest moment.

601
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 4: Well, I had several tough moments. I can't say that

602
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 4: the road was easy at all. I mean several times

603
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 4: I had breakdowns. But I had a village that surrounded

604
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 4: me that encouraged me. So when I was feeling like that,

605
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 4: that was when I would get a card in the

606
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 4: mail and then have some encouraging words, or somebody would

607
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 4: say something to me at church. I remember one time

608
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 4: I was at home and I was just so distraughty,

609
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 4: dealing with lawyers and all of the system and all that,

610
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 4: and I went to the grocery store and saw man

611
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 4: with no legs and he was shopping and getting in

612
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 4: the car, and it just it just did something to me, Like,

613
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 4: you know, I got to start looking at what I

614
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 4: do have and try to just be more positive about it.

615
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 4: But I mean, it's heavy. Prison system is heavy, and

616
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 4: the more I got into it or things I found

617
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 4: out that were not right. There are things that are legal,

618
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 4: but they're not right. And that became turn my pain

619
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 4: into passion and my passion into purpose. So I had

620
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 4: to begin to shift it.

621
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 1: I love that, and you ended up turning to advocacy, Michelle.

622
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: Inside you turned to academics. But was there a moment

623
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 1: where You're like, I'm going to take this anger and

624
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 1: this injustice and I'm going to turn it into action.

625
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 3: God said, if I meet him halfway, he'll meet me

626
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 3: the other way. So I knew I had to do everything.

627
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 3: I engaged in an introspection. I went inside myself and

628
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 3: I had to fix the creeks and crevices within Michelle

629
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 3: to make sure I was going to become a better version.

630
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 3: And that included knowing my value in my worth. And

631
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 3: once I started learning myself all over again, reading self

632
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 3: help book, taking classes, teaching classes, getting every education class

633
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 3: that was offered, I started looking at the world different.

634
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,720
Speaker 3: My value changed, the people that I hung around changed,

635
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,400
Speaker 3: everything changed. I knew my purpose, I knew my reason

636
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 3: for being there and had nothing to do with my crime.

637
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 3: It had every reason to do with me becoming a

638
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 3: woman that I needed to be inside of that throughout

639
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 3: the environment.

640
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 2: That was the plan for my life.

641
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 1: Well, you did the work in two ways, because I

642
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 1: love how you talk about self acceptance and self love

643
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 1: and really learning to value your worth. But you also

644
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 1: worked hard on your education. Can you just tell me

645
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 1: about what you achieved educationally while you were incarcerated.

646
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 3: I took every self help group they had, But on

647
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,719
Speaker 3: top of that, I took a basic theology course and

648
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 3: I took advanced theology course. Got my associate's degree inside

649
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 3: of prison, and I started my bachelor's degree while I

650
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 3: was there. I also took some trades. I took auto

651
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 3: mechanic computer class, and I graduated with my bachelor's degree

652
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:13,320
Speaker 3: when I got out of prison.

653
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: And you didn't just graduate. You graduated with honors, if

654
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 1: I'm not mistaken. And now you're working on your masters.

655
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:26,360
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean my master's in a positive psychology life culture.

656
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: I love that. And now, in terms of your advocacy, Cynthia,

657
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,399
Speaker 1: it must have felt like you were up against an

658
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 1: entire system, because you really were, and it's a system

659
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 1: that you're absolutely right, is stacked against women like your daughter.

660
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 1: Just some stats. According to the Sentencing Project, in the US,

661
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 1: black women are locked up at one point six times

662
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 1: the rate as white women, and since nineteen eighty the

663
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 1: number of women in prison has risen five hundred and

664
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 1: twenty five percent and enjoyed Georgia. Fifty percent of the

665
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 1: women serving life sentences are black, and that's according to

666
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 1: the National Black Women's Justice Institute. So you're realizing your

667
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 1: eyes are open to these injustices in real time. How

668
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,320
Speaker 1: did you turn that anger into action?

669
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,760
Speaker 4: Well, it wasn't easy because it's happened in two thousand

670
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:29,799
Speaker 4: and nine, and for years I carried around shame. I

671
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,479
Speaker 4: didn't want to really share it with people. I didn't

672
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 4: even want to share it with my church family, who

673
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,800
Speaker 4: I've been going to that church for thirty almost forty years.

674
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 4: But there was just a small group that I did

675
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,239
Speaker 4: confide in and they kind of held me up. But

676
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:46,399
Speaker 4: a lot of people say they'll help you, but they

677
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 4: don't end up not helping you. I had even a

678
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 4: few pastors that would listen to my story so intently

679
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,839
Speaker 4: and say, oh, yeah, that is wrong, and I'm going

680
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 4: to call you, and they would never call me back.

681
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,040
Speaker 4: So I felt like I was the long ranger. And

682
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 4: then in two thousand and eighteen, I decided to go

683
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 4: to an event. I was attending a lot of seminars

684
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 4: and things like that, but this was one in Nashville, Tennessee,

685
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 4: and it was actually put on by organization from United

686
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 4: Methodist Church, and in this little group setting, I shared

687
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 4: my story and I had never shared it in public

688
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 4: like that, and it caught the attention of one of

689
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,319
Speaker 4: the ladies and they did a magazine article and then

690
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,359
Speaker 4: it was out. But then doors began to open up

691
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 4: so big because I shared my story and from then

692
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 4: it kind of just began to happen. But even to

693
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,840
Speaker 4: the point where someone found us on the internet. People

694
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 4: beginning to help, paid for lawyers fees and just stepped

695
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 4: up when they heard our story. So it was a process,

696
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:49,439
Speaker 4: not an easy one.

697
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 1: And would you say that the turning tide for you

698
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 1: was going and opening yourself up to that group of

699
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,240
Speaker 1: people in Nashville and telling your story.

700
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 4: I think that's when things begin to turn. When that

701
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,959
Speaker 4: got published and people began to know about it, that's

702
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,319
Speaker 4: when other doors begin to open up. I found other avenues,

703
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 4: other groups, people begin to donate, even to the fact

704
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 4: that our last lawyer was paid for completely by a

705
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 4: complete stranger that I didn't even know.

706
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 1: Now I've read that for over a decade that you

707
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 1: organized and protested for the creation of a conviction integrity

708
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 1: unit in Fulton County, what was your driving mission and

709
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 1: why do you feel that really should be the goal

710
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 1: of every single county in Georgia and beyond.

711
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 4: Well, Paul Howard was our previous district attorney here in

712
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 4: Georgia who has been the district attorney for years and years,

713
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 4: and he is the one that Michelle was sentenced under,

714
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 4: and he was getting ready to be up for election.

715
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 4: I didn't know how that was going to play out.

716
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 4: So Paul Howard, he decides to get this integrity unit

717
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 4: because that would make him look good because he's coming

718
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 4: up for reelection. Well, needless did he know he did

719
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 4: not win? And it must have been predestined because the

720
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 4: new DA came to our church about a year before that,

721
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 4: and when I talked to her, something in my spirit

722
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 4: said she's going to be the one to help your daughter.

723
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 4: So when she got elected as DA, we went to

724
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,800
Speaker 4: her and said, look, Paul Howard had this in place.

725
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 4: Are you going to continue? And she said yes.

726
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:33,280
Speaker 1: And she's not just a DA, she's a rather famous

727
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 1: one at this point on a national stage. But so,

728
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,439
Speaker 1: Fannie Willis, did you have a hope she would make

729
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 1: real change?

730
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:43,839
Speaker 3: Oh?

731
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 4: I know that she is a person about fairness, and

732
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 4: about doing the right thing when it comes to the

733
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 4: justice system. And I believe that she would come in

734
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 4: and make the crooked places straight. And I think that's

735
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 4: what she has been trying to do with his Integrity

736
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 4: Task Force. My prayers that county in Georgia would adopt

737
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 4: something like this and look at the cases because it's

738
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,760
Speaker 4: been going on too long, the over sentencing of people

739
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 4: of color, people that are marginalized, and it's got to stop.

740
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 4: And I got a real education in the justice system.

741
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:20,800
Speaker 4: It is not justice for all.

742
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 1: And it's almost impossible to fight it on an individual basis.

743
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:28,239
Speaker 1: You really do need that oversight to see the systematic

744
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 1: corruption that's going on and injustice. So after she was

745
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:37,359
Speaker 1: inaugurated in January twenty twenty one, Fannie Willis kept her

746
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:42,240
Speaker 1: campaign promise to prioritize the Integrity Unit and revisit cases

747
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: including Michelle's. And Michelle, you were resentenced in July of

748
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one on one charge of attempted armed robbery,

749
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 1: basically the original plea offer that was turned down. But

750
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:57,839
Speaker 1: by then, of course, you would already spend far more

751
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 1: than five years behind bars. What did that mean to you?

752
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:03,800
Speaker 2: Both? Well?

753
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 3: When I went back to court in July. It was unbelievable.

754
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 3: The judge, Amy Maxwell, she is absolutely amazing. I thought

755
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 3: she was my lawyer for a second, the way she

756
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 3: talked so highly of me, And I was so excited

757
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,359
Speaker 3: once I heard the judge said, we're going to drop

758
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 3: the life sentence. And I'm gonna be honest, No, I

759
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:28,800
Speaker 3: did not want to be reindicted for an armed robbery

760
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:34,320
Speaker 3: charge because my five year charge was criminal attempt to robbery,

761
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:38,719
Speaker 3: which is lesser than actual armed robbery. Armed robbery meaning

762
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 3: you had a gun, and it's just it's a bad charge.

763
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:44,280
Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, I am thankful.

764
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 3: I am thankful because it got me out and I

765
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:48,879
Speaker 3: know I can work to try to get my record.

766
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 2: Expunged when I get off of parole. But it's so

767
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 2: hard with that charge, that charge, it's hindering.

768
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 1: It's a different kind of life sentence, you know.

769
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yes, it's double jeopardy. It's double jeopardy. I

770
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,919
Speaker 2: got out of that. Now I'm here and I can't

771
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:07,760
Speaker 2: rent from nobody.

772
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 3: So when I got reindicted in twenty twenty one, it's

773
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,879
Speaker 3: showing up like I just committed the crime in twenty

774
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 3: twenty one. It's not going back to two thousand and

775
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 3: nine where I was originally charged. So people see that job,

776
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 3: see that, places rent see that, and they'd be like, oh,

777
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:23,720
Speaker 3: this is a new charge.

778
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 2: It's definitely a lot to.

779
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 1: Deal with for the Conviction Integrity Unit. Was it really

780
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 1: just a question of like laying it out for them

781
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 1: and saying, do you think this is fairer? Was it

782
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:40,240
Speaker 1: just a question of getting her case reevaluated?

783
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 4: Well you have to remember too, when they first started that,

784
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 4: there were over one hundred cases to review, and what

785
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 4: we heard was Michelle was weighed down at the bottom.

786
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,799
Speaker 4: But God sent us a lawyer that has that same

787
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 4: don't give up spirit, and she was not going for it.

788
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 4: When we met and I told her my story, she

789
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 4: had this compassion. She immediately went to visit Michelle when

790
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,839
Speaker 4: other lawyers I paid a lot more money, didn't even

791
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 4: do that. But she just was not going to give up.

792
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 4: And I think she just kept getting in their face.

793
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 4: So you got to look at this. You got to

794
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 4: look at it. And when they looked at it, they

795
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 4: begin to agree.

796
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 1: Jenni's man is a formidable force of nature. I can

797
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 1: see Michelle while you guys probably connected right away, and

798
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 1: Cynthia you too. She actually sent me something today which

799
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 1: I wanted to share with you because I think it

800
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 1: speaks volumes. Michelle's case went to the Supreme Court of

801
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 1: Georgia and the guilty verdict was upheld. Her case demonstrates

802
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 1: why we need laws to support conviction integrity units and

803
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 1: sentence review units. The court system as it stands doesn't

804
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 1: always get it right. Second look reviews like the one

805
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 1: done in Michelle's case not only give people a second chance,

806
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:57,760
Speaker 1: they put justice back in the court system. Cynthia never

807
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:01,280
Speaker 1: gave up hope on her daughter when the court slammed

808
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 1: every door in her face. Her strength is admirable and

809
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:09,360
Speaker 1: I see it shining through Michelle. Together, we've achieved what

810
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:13,279
Speaker 1: many thought we couldn't. We overturned her life sentence, and

811
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 1: now Michelle can help other young women to make better

812
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 1: decisions in their lives too.

813
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 4: Hi, man, that sums it up perfectly.

814
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 1: So, Michelle. August twenty second, twenty twenty two, you were

815
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:32,399
Speaker 1: actually the first woman released from prison under Fulton's new

816
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 1: Conviction Integrity Unit after serving thirteen years. How do you

817
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 1: think you got through those thirteen years?

818
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 3: My faith I'm a very spiritual person, my faith in God,

819
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:52,920
Speaker 3: my hope, of course my mom. Without her, it wouldn't

820
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 3: have been possible.

821
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 1: And how would you describe your relationship on the other

822
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 1: side of this? What do you guys mean to wanty another?

823
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 3: That's my baby, that's my heart, well everything, she's my baby.

824
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 2: No doubt, it's sensitive talking about her every time.

825
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,080
Speaker 4: We'd like to travel together. So we've been getting some

826
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 4: of that back. We've been taken two trips to Puerto Rico,

827
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:21,439
Speaker 4: and we've been doing things together. So we're still trying

828
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 4: to get established. It hasn't been easy, but it's good

829
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 4: because we can now talk to each other and see

830
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:29,759
Speaker 4: each other every day and we do.

831
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 1: What advice would you both have for someone else who

832
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 1: finds themselves in this situation? I know that Cynthia, in

833
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:48,280
Speaker 1: the process of advocating for Michelle, you came across many

834
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 1: other families who, like you, were on their own trying

835
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 1: to navigate getting through this process of getting their loved

836
00:45:55,160 --> 00:46:01,360
Speaker 1: ones released. What advice do you believe ve is most

837
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 1: valuable Having gone through everything that you've gone through, to.

838
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:10,400
Speaker 4: Not focus on my situation, but to get involved, to

839
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:14,759
Speaker 4: find out everything that I could to help myself. One

840
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 4: of the seminars that went they called participatory defense. You

841
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,799
Speaker 4: must participate in your own defense. You cannot leave it

842
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:25,760
Speaker 4: up to a lawyer. You cannot leave it up to anyone.

843
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:29,120
Speaker 4: But you know yourself and you can fight for yourself

844
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:32,360
Speaker 4: better than anyone, So you have to get involved. Michelle

845
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 4: did her part. She did not get in trouble. She

846
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 4: became the best she could be. And my part was

847
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 4: to participate and find out all the information I could

848
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 4: to see what I could do to help my daughter.

849
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 4: I would not accept no. Every door was closed in

850
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:50,760
Speaker 4: our face, every appeal, we were down to the wire.

851
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 4: There was nothing less. But I knew there was going

852
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:55,239
Speaker 4: to be a way because I was not going to

853
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:57,319
Speaker 4: let it happen like that. If I had to go

854
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 4: sit on the steps of the courthouse for seven and

855
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:03,720
Speaker 4: make a camp, I was just prepared to do anything.

856
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 4: You have to have that mindset because they're gonna tell

857
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 4: you no, because they're not looking out for your best interest.

858
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:14,319
Speaker 4: Everybody's looking out for them. So I would say, get involved,

859
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 4: don't give up.

860
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 1: Get involved, Michelle. Why is helping people who're still there

861
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:21,839
Speaker 1: resonate so deeply with you.

862
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 3: Because I've met some of the most amazing people I've

863
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 3: ever met in my life in there, some of the

864
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 3: best friends.

865
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 2: When you're down at your lowest point and you.

866
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 3: Were able to build a friendship, a bond between each other,

867
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:39,799
Speaker 3: I feel like that's the most realist friendship you ever

868
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 3: can have. So I have a lot of women down

869
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 3: there that I truly love. If I can help them out,

870
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 3: I will and advocate for them. It's a lot of

871
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 3: women down there that's innocent, or they got too much time.

872
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:55,440
Speaker 3: They don't have no money, they don't have no helps,

873
00:47:55,440 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 3: They're just sitting there with nobody. I want to be

874
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 3: that person to help them any way that I can,

875
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:13,800
Speaker 3: whether I can advocate for them, whether I can support

876
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 3: them mentally, spiritually, emotionally, anything that I can do for them,

877
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 3: I'm gonna do it because I've been there before and

878
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 3: I understand the struggle, and without a strong support system,

879
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 3: it's so hard.

880
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:32,760
Speaker 2: It's so hard you can just ride away. So I'm thankful.

881
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 3: So not only am I going to be the change

882
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:37,839
Speaker 3: that I want to see in the world, I'm going

883
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 3: to give back that love and compassion that I received

884
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:43,879
Speaker 3: during that time, because I know it helped me.

885
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco.

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00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:14,880
Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence organizations and go to the

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00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:17,799
Speaker 1: links in the episode description to see how you can

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00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 1: get involved and how you can help. I'd like to

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00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:25,080
Speaker 1: thank our executive producers Jason Flam, Jeff Kempler, and Kevin Wardis,

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00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 1: as well as our producers Annie Chelsea and Kathleen Fink.

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Speaker 1: This series is produced, edited, and hosted by me Lauren

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00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 1: Bright Pacheco. Our senior producer is Kara Kornhaber. Story editing

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00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:40,840
Speaker 1: by Hannah Bial, research by Shelby Sorels, mixing and sound

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00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:44,920
Speaker 1: designed by Jackie Pauley with additional production by Jeff Clyburn.

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Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Jay Ralph. Be sure to

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Speaker 1: follow us across all social media platforms at Lava for

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00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:55,239
Speaker 1: Good and at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me

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00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 1: on all platforms at Lauren Bright Pacheco. Wrongful Conviction is

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Speaker 1: a product tion of Lava for Good Podcasts and association

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Speaker 1: with Signal Company Number one