WEBVTT - Holding Space for the Hard Things w/ Glennon Doyle 0:00:01.160 --> 0:00:04.519 Welcome to The Laverne Cox Show, a production of Shondaland 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:09.240 Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. 0:00:10.640 --> 0:00:12.840 I think one of the things that we have in common, 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:14.520 which it feels like there's a lot of things, but 0:00:15.560 --> 0:00:18.040 as I go back to my childhood, I'm like I 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:22.240 was hungry. I was hungry for food. I was hungry 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:24.479 for love, I was hungry for acceptance. I was queer. 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:29.160 I had to get out of my body because there 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:30.479 was all kinds of danger there. 0:00:35.960 --> 0:00:40.840 Hello, Hello, Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:49.320 My name is Laverne Cox. Okay, here we go. Glennon 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:55.400 Doyle is just She's such an incredible human being. We 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:58.440 love her books, we love her podcast but like what 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:03.240 I love most about her is her willingness to sit 0:01:03.320 --> 0:01:08.440 with discomfort, to process and create space. And it's my 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:12.000 hope today that I can hold space with Glennon Doyle 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:17.880 to do potentially some really hard things. Glennon Doyle is 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:21.319 an author, activist, and podcast host. She is the author 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:24.560 of the number one New York Times bestsellers Love Warrior 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:28.760 and Untamed. Glennon hosts the award winning, super popular We 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:32.039 Can Do Hard Things podcasts with her wife Abby Wambach, 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:35.520 and her sister Amanda Doyle. Glennon is also the founder 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:39.760 and president of Togetherizing and all women led nonprofit organization 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:43.600 that has raised over fifty million dollars for women, families 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:53.680 and children in crisis. Please enjoy my conversation with Glennon Doyle. Okay, folks, 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:56.080 just a quick heads up. This was recorded in March 0:01:56.200 --> 0:01:59.680 twenty twenty three. Glennon and I talk about eating disorders, addiction, 0:01:59.760 --> 0:02:02.240 and re recovery. If you think this may be triggering 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:05.080 for you, just go ahead and skip this episode. We'll 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:11.480 meet back here next week. Hello Glennon, Welcome to the podcast. 0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:12.400 How are you feeling. 0:02:13.120 --> 0:02:16.560 I'm feeling good. This is the first other than my podcast. 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:18.720 This is the first thing that I've done in like 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:19.480 six months. 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:20.280 Wow. 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:25.079 I've made a no events or public interviews or anything 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:28.359 rule for myself this year. So I hope I remember 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:28.880 how to do this. 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:32.679 Leverne, Why did you make that rule for yourself. 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:36.960 While I entered recovery six months ago? 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:39.920 Yeah, I'm aware. I've been listening. 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:46.240 Oh so I don't know that there was something about 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:49.880 I mean, I think probably early recovery for anybody requires 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:53.560 a cutting out of a lot of things, just to 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:58.960 focus on the one most important thing. But I am 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:04.240 in recovery for ann and there is something that feels 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:11.040 inherently like self objectifying about constantly putting yourself out there. 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:15.519 I just needed to like live in my body for 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:19.880 a good long time and not worry about an outer 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:26.120 image or projection or any of that. I don't think 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:28.119 I've been in my body for a very long time. 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:33.280 So I actually found myself on stage liver and after 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:35.720 I had been doing a lot of embodiment stuff, and 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:38.120 for the first time, I was like, what the hell 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:39.040 am I doing up here? 0:03:39.080 --> 0:03:44.200 This is terrifying to actually be in your body on stage. Yes, 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:49.000 had you felt embodied before and then something took you 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:50.720 out of your body? Or do you think you've never 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:51.640 felt embodied? 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:56.720 It's a great question. I became believemic when I was 0:03:56.760 --> 0:03:57.440 ten years old. 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:03.360 Do you remember what was the trigger for the bliemia? 0:04:03.400 --> 0:04:06.280 Do you have an understanding of like, Okay, this is 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:08.360 why I started doing this at ten. 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:14.640 Well, I am in the middle of in this new level. 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:18.480 I'm on a new level of recovery, and I'm in 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:21.200 the process right now of looking back at my life 0:04:22.000 --> 0:04:24.480 and kind of revising the narratives that I have had 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:29.120 about that. For example, Laverne, I have always said and 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:34.080 written in memoirs, I just was born really extra sensitive. 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:37.120 I actually wrote in my first memoir, I was just 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:40.120 I had a magical childhood. I just was born broken. 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:47.880 And I think when I got sober, because I've eating 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:50.479 disorder turned into drug addiction and alcohol, and so I 0:04:50.520 --> 0:04:53.000 got sober when I was twenty five and I found 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:56.600 out I was pregnant, and I just quit everything cold turkey, 0:04:56.760 --> 0:04:59.440 Like one day. I quit puking, I quit drugging, I 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:01.960 quit drink, I quit smoking. It was just like everything 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:07.080 at once. And I think I just like I jumped 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:10.719 into eventually this writing career, in this public situation, and 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:14.680 I just kind of wrote a tidy story for myself, 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:17.440 like I didn't really want to look back at all 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:17.720 of it. 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:23.039 It's hard when I look back on for me, like 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:25.880 food was love for me, So food was love my mom. 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:30.080 My mom is amazing, and she did the best she could. 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:33.719 That she was not affectionate, she was not loving, she 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:37.440 was emotionally abusive. That she fed us, and like food 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:42.240 was the way I felt love from her. So and 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:45.120 so many of my trigger foods are childhood foods that 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:50.000 I ate that evoked love for me. I was also 0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:55.279 sexually abused, I was bullied, and so recovery for me 0:05:56.080 --> 0:05:57.800 is about and I think I have heard you say 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:00.960 something on one of your podcasts about like getting back 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:05.400 to that child who is not traumatized, giving that child 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:11.240 space to heal, reparenting her, caring for her, giving her 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:16.120 other tools to use that are more adaptive than maladaptive. 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:21.839 And yeah, does any that resonate with you around your 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:22.560 every word? 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:27.760 Okay, every word and so much of this round of recovery, Cliverne, 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:31.560 I thought I was. I've been sober for twenty five years. 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:35.160 I got sober, I haven't been drinking, I haven't been puking. 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:40.760 I thought I was good. And I think this is 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:43.680 an oversimplification, but I think I kind of solved my 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:45.600 bolimia with anorexia. 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:50.359 That's that's not unusual, right. So the binging enpuraging for 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:54.960 you was, I'm assuming there was binging. Usually there is 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:58.520 when you're a bleimic. So that was like having an 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:02.560 out of control relatelationship to eating and then wanting to 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:07.400 get rid of that food to stay thin. Was that 0:07:07.440 --> 0:07:10.800 about staying thin, controlling your body, just control. What was 0:07:10.800 --> 0:07:11.840 that about for you? 0:07:12.960 --> 0:07:17.560 I mean, as I look back with this new you know, 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:19.320 I feel like sometimes we just look back on our 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:21.480 lives and we're like, we just get a wider perspective, 0:07:21.480 --> 0:07:22.920 you know, when you see a picture and you can 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:25.080 only see this one little piece, so you think, I 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:27.120 think you've got it, Like maybe it was this, I 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:31.200 mean I grew up. Part of the work of this 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:34.320 time is to look at the narratives I've written and 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:36.480 be like, really, Glenna, and were you just really sensitive 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:40.360 and broken or did you grow up in a pretty 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:48.600 tough house? Was it pretty rough? And then did you 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:50.560 also grow you know, in a place where there was 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:55.960 a lot of anger and a lot of complicity about 0:07:55.960 --> 0:08:00.800 that anger, and a lot of control in terms of 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:05.920 food and bodies, and a lot of fat phobia, and 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:14.280 a lot of just control, man, just control. And I 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:17.160 think that the way I kind of feel now is 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:19.880 that Bolimia was like a rebellion against all of it, 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:24.600 because you just like, you can control yourself for a while, 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:27.480 and you can like be good and you can not 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:30.000 have an appetite and you cannot have desired You can 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:33.600 be a robot. And then there are these moments where 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:37.640 you're just like fuck it and you're like indulging. You're like, 0:08:38.720 --> 0:08:40.600 well I would have called it animal self, now I'm 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:45.720 just it's human self, right, like indulging your hunger. It's 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:49.120 just this rebellion against all the fake and all the control. 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:57.560 And then there's a panic because because it's true a 0:08:57.559 --> 0:09:00.839 lot of it. We do live in a culture that 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:06.200 does not want women, especially to show any proof of life, 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:08.640 or any proof of appetite, or any proof of desire, 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:12.760 any proof of being human. So the puke, the purging 0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:15.120 is like I have to get rid of the evidence. 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:26.120 Yeah, oh gos, the fat phobia is really really real. 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:28.760 I interviewed Virgie Tobar, who's a fat activist, on my 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:31.120 podcast last season, and she says in her book that 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:33.520 just floors me still to this day, that most of 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:36.640 us live and even though I'm weary of binaries, she 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:40.400 says that most of us live in a culture where 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:45.679 we are experiencing bigotry for being fat in a fat 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:49.040 phobic culture, or we're living in fear of becoming fat 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:53.280 and experiencing that bigotry. And the way she puts it 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:56.280 in and captures it in terms of discrimination and a 0:09:56.320 --> 0:09:59.679 structural issue is really helpful in terms of how we 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:04.240 in turn realize those things and how unconscious it is 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:08.720 on so many different levels. Another thing that came up 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:10.520 for me was what you just said, is that my 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:13.360 therapist says to me is that if I do not 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:16.600 give my inner child attention, if I don't give her 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:21.000 spaces to play, she will go and run the show. 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:24.600 And I think so much of my acting out historically 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:28.160 has been about my little kid, that rebellious fuck it. 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:30.400 So you're not going to pay any attention to me. 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:33.079 I'm gonna just rage and I'm going to destroy you 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:35.920 and like that. It's like that, fuck you, It's like 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:39.000 this little kid. So, but if I can give her space, 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:42.040 if I can give my inner child space to play, 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:44.400 what do you need today? Oh you need to play 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:46.040 dress up? Oh you need to post, or you need 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:48.400 to dance, or you need to listen to music, whatever 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:51.240 she needs. If I can start giving her that, if 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:54.920 I can start listening to her and integrating her instead 0:10:54.920 --> 0:11:03.720 of abandoning her, Instead of abandoning her, I might cry 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:06.240 on this one. This is this is we're doing hard things, 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:10.520 talking about that we're doing real hard things really are 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:14.680 that I can't abandon her. Oh my god, I've abandoned 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:20.080 her so many times. Me too, And so much of 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:24.080 my dysfunctional behavior, acting out addictive behavior has been about 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:28.560 abandoning her. And you know, she was told that she 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:31.840 didn't deserve to live or be here for so many 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:35.720 different reasons. But she does. She does, and she's alive, 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:38.720 and and she needs me. 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:43.959 She needs me, you know, I just, uh, since you're 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:45.839 being so vulnerable, I'll just tell you this, even though 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:47.320 I can't believe I'm about to tell you this, but 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:50.920 I have been doing the same work that you're doing, 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:56.600 and about a week ago, I'm just like, when you're 0:11:56.640 --> 0:11:58.760 in recovery, you kind of pick up some other weird 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:03.240 things because you lost yourself soothing thing, you know, it's 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:06.840 like there's this first layer of recovery that's about stopping 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:10.840 the thing that you're running to, which is like the booze, 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:13.600 the food, the drugs, the what overshopping. For people who 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:16.040 are less dramatic, like whatever it is that people do, it. 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:17.520 Could be very dramatic overshopping. 0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:21.439 Yeah, that's your lives have been ruined. 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:25.360 It's very dramatic. And I think, yeah, I may need 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:27.440 to talk to somebody anyway, go on. 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:32.800 And then there's this second level that is the worst part. 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:38.360 The first part's terrible and withdraws horrible, and but this 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:40.640 other level of the recovery, which is like whether or 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:43.560 not you stop the thing you're running from. And that's 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:46.520 complicated because it's always a million different things. But I 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:48.640 think that's one of the reasons why in the beginning, 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:52.400 when you ask me why I stopped doing things publicly, 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:55.280 I think maybe there's a version of me in the 0:12:55.320 --> 0:12:59.520 future who can handle it. But like what you said before, 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:04.480 my child does not want to be on stages, does 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:06.959 not want to be She's scared shitless all the time. 0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:10.200 I can't believe you're talking about as much as what 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:13.280 you're talking about in your podcast, as raw as it is, 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:15.880 as real as it is, as in the moment as 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:19.320 it is the moment and the day you talked first 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:25.320 about the relapse that was that was so that was hard, 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:28.440 like that was hard to listen to. That was just 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:30.960 it was brilliant that you were able to process it 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:34.320 in the support that you had, I know, the support 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:37.120 that you had from Abby and from your sister in 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:39.400 that moment with like the way they held you in 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:42.959 hell space for that. It's such what I That's the 0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:45.559 thing I probably love most about your podcast is how 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:51.360 you're modeling holding space for the hard things like that, 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:56.160 that you can have that you can have people in 0:13:56.200 --> 0:14:00.760 your life who you can be a will mess with, 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:04.360 that you can be fully vulnerable and just broken with 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:08.520 and they can hold space for you and love you 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:11.920 even more and lift you up. I mean, it's like, 0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:16.840 So that is so fucking powerful what you guys are 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:20.920 modeling on that podcast. That is like and I just 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:23.120 I'm so grateful for it because I'm lucky that I 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:26.240 have that in my life. But it's it's new for me. 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:29.720 So I'm like, oh shit, this is like the real shit, 0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:34.520 Like this is like, oh my god. But they're doing 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:38.160 it and they're loving and it's hard, and then you 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:42.280 have kids on top of it. I'm doing this without children, 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:45.600 and I'm doing this only in contact with my mother 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:49.600 and my brother all the rest of the dysfunctional family. Girl, 0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:51.760 we don't do it. We don't do it. And my 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:53.480 mom and I are in are good place now. I 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:56.040 went back to Alabama for the first time for Thanksgiving 0:14:56.320 --> 0:14:58.560 and left un triggered for the first time. I'm fifty 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:02.360 years old years old, so that's like that was a miracle. 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:04.520 So but I don't fuck with like a lot of 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:08.120 my family, and I don't have kids. That's a whole 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:11.960 I don't really even know. I don't know how people 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:17.760 have children, and I don't know how you have three. 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:19.760 You're doing this and you have children. 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:26.160 I mean, girl, but look, I find it oppositely amazing, 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:28.680 like for you to be choosing to do this shit 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:33.480 without the little people who are staring at you shaming you, 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:36.360 Like I have to do this shit. I have to 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:37.920 do this work because. 0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:39.480 So you don't raise dispunctional children. 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:43.920 Yes, I have to break some of this generational shit. 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:46.400 You know. Sometimes I get so pissed at the generation 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:51.680 before me, my parents, for not doing the work so 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:53.680 that I had to do all the work. And then 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:59.200 and then I think about, maybe there's just moments generationally 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:02.920 where there's a person in the line who just has 0:16:03.120 --> 0:16:10.400 enough space, power, privilege, money, because therapy costs so freaking much, 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:15.400 so much money, support, like an amazing wife and sister, 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:18.560 and like maybe generations of women before me are like, 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:22.240 oh do it, like we couldn't. 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:24.920 They did the best they can where I got to them. 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:27.360 With my mother, she really did the best she could. 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:32.040 And as I heard more stories about her childhood, her abusive, 0:16:32.200 --> 0:16:35.640 abusive father, who grew up on a plantation, and just 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:39.600 I was always like, oh my, there were absolutely no tools. 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:44.760 I mean, my grandmother was amazing, thank God. But it was, 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:48.680 of course, of course, when I forgave her and continue 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:50.200 to forgive her, and I'm like, she did the best 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:53.400 she could. She's doing the best that she can. And 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:56.200 oh my god, I love that Brene Brown moment. I've 0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:58.840 interviewed Brenee. I'll try to convince the story. But Brene 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:03.280 basically says, if we believe that people are doing the 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:06.320 best that they can, and she she's hardwareed to believe 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:10.480 people are sucking up on purpose, independs are off. But 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:13.239 if we believe that people are doing the best that 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:15.919 they can, then what do we need to do? And 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:20.080 boundaries becomes that thing that we need to do, and 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:23.280 the boundaries are like I love boundaries, me. 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:26.960 Too, I love boundaries, my favorite and but but it 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:31.439 happened to me. I think, well, for solivern, I can 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:34.399 become addicted to anything, me too, Like there is nothing, 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:37.439 nothing is safe for me. Okay, So I think that 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:41.600 I became addicted to boundaries, like I think when I 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:45.080 found boundaries, I was just like, oh, this is the solve, 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:48.359 this is how you know. I'll never forget my I 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:50.560 think I think I mentioned this on my podcast. I 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:52.879 don't know if I did. My therapist said to me 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:57.160 on one of the first like anorexia beginning therapy sessions, 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:01.080 how is how you deal with people the same as 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:01.960 how you deal with food. 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:07.399 Oh oh oh, oh oh oh. I'm sorry that question 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:12.080 just like, yeah, that question just stucked me up. Okay, 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:13.200 I'm gonna write that down. 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:17.760 I was like, oh, well, I have like three safe 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:20.760 foods and then I protect myself from every other food 0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:23.720 because I have decided what's good and what's bad, and 0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:26.600 what's safe and what's dangerous, like I had. There's a 0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:30.639 million ways, and I have like three people that I 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:34.119 trust in the whole world, and everyone else is not safe. 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:36.000 I have so many boundaries. 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:37.840 The wait three safe foods? 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:38.920 I was so weird. 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:40.680 What was it? Where were three safe foods? I don't 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:42.320 know if I don't want to trigger anyone out there, 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:43.400 but no. 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:46.119 They were like anything to do with vegetables, like it 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:49.080 you know, antarexticy just becomes like this religion of restriction, 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:53.000 and it's just you know what it is. It's to 0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:58.240 me if if bulimia is like rebellion against the rules 0:18:58.240 --> 0:19:00.520 of control and food, nott phobia and all of it, 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:05.560 then anarexia is like extreme compliance. Right. I was like, 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:10.000 I'll be bad, and then I got pregnant. I was like, Okay, 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:11.600 i'll be good. I'll be good. I'll be good. I'll 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:15.040 be good, and I just like controlled, controlled, controlled, controlled. 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:17.040 Well, it's interesting to me when you talked about getting 0:19:17.080 --> 0:19:20.880 pregnant and stopping everything. There are a lot of people who, 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:23.919 particularly in AA, stop drinking but don't deal with the 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:26.800 underlying issues, and they're basically dry drunks. Do you think 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:31.600 that you were like, uh, dry drunk dry, you know, yeah, 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:33.919 eating disorder or I don't know what the legue may 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:34.840 be eating disorder. 0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:36.840 I don't know what the word is either, but yes, 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:37.600 I think so. 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:42.720 Yeah, and created a nice, neat story that worked for 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:48.160 you and has been very successful for you, and then 0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:50.359 it all sort of has kind of fallen apart a 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:52.359 little bit. I don't know, fall apart might not. That 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:56.359 may seem judgmental, but no, fall apart feels relief to me. Okay, 0:19:56.440 --> 0:19:57.360 good when you. 0:19:57.320 --> 0:19:59.080 Say fall apart, that feels like I don't know why, 0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:02.320 but in my body that feels like, yeah, it feels 0:20:02.359 --> 0:20:04.400 like the opposite of trying to keep is. 0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:06.840 This, Like, Okay, I don't have to be perfect anymore. 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:10.240 I don't have to keep up appearances anymore. I can 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:11.800 just be. 0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:12.960 The jig is up. 0:20:13.359 --> 0:20:17.080 Yeah, this is a good time to take a little break. 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:30.520 We'll be right back though, Okay, we're back. So goshka perfect. 0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:32.080 I mean, I feel like that there's so much about 0:20:32.160 --> 0:20:34.520 around perfectionism, and I think about that like the thing 0:20:34.560 --> 0:20:36.919 to keep it all together, right, Like I have to 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:41.040 keep it together for you, if with kids, with the children. 0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:43.760 For me, it was I mean, god, it was just shame. 0:20:43.960 --> 0:20:46.639 It was like being black and trans and all of 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:50.600 this sort of misconceptions and things that people have about 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:54.160 black women, black trans women, wanting to make my mother 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:59.520 proud and then becoming famous and needing to represent my 0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:03.080 community and doing it and I've done it imperfectly, but 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:05.639 like having that pressure of like I can't fuck up 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:10.120 because this is going to reflect badly on an entire community. 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:13.800 The pressure of all that and I wonder too for you, 0:21:14.119 --> 0:21:15.800 and you talk a bit about it on the podcast 0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:18.560 that like so many people look to you, and you've 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:21.000 always said, from my understanding of your worked that like 0:21:21.080 --> 0:21:24.399 you don't have all the answers and that you're in process. 0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:27.440 But do you think that even as you confess that 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:29.920 that there's like I still have to be perfect from 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:33.879 my audience, or do you give yourself permission? Obviously you 0:21:33.920 --> 0:21:37.840 give yourself permission to be imperfect in theory, but in 0:21:38.000 --> 0:21:40.320 fully in practice, do you feel like it's fully there 0:21:40.960 --> 0:21:42.000 or is it slippery? 0:21:42.520 --> 0:21:47.560 It's slippery. And here's a weird thing that I've noticed recently, 0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:51.919 so it's been six months now where I've been completely offline, 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:58.600 because here's a weird thing to learn, is that I 0:21:58.640 --> 0:22:03.919 not only didn't want to see the criticism of the 0:22:03.960 --> 0:22:08.040 eating disorder and the imperfection, I didn't want to see 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:15.360 the praise of the vulnerability. Because there's something about public 0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:20.240 women where the more busted up you are, the more 0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:26.720 beloved you are. And like I see it. Sometimes I'll 0:22:26.720 --> 0:22:29.440 see a friend who's famous and a woman and doing 0:22:29.480 --> 0:22:33.280 things and it's like the second she becomes too powerful 0:22:33.400 --> 0:22:39.720 or famous or something shiny happens, you'll see them post like, oh, 0:22:39.760 --> 0:22:41.760 I'm like a busted up thing. 0:22:41.920 --> 0:22:46.040 Yeah, it's not relatable to people when you seem too perfect, 0:22:46.680 --> 0:22:50.960 and when we are messy and revealed, you know, the struggles. 0:22:51.000 --> 0:22:53.960 I let's say the struggles. It's human and people can 0:22:54.000 --> 0:22:57.920 relate to it. But then also people want to tear 0:22:58.000 --> 0:23:02.080 that perfect woman down and it's it's women. And why 0:23:02.119 --> 0:23:05.920 is it always women? I mean, it's just the way 0:23:06.000 --> 0:23:09.280 patriarchy seems to work and peerreless. Why supremacist capitalist patriarchy 0:23:09.280 --> 0:23:12.080 to quote Bell Hooks, It's just the way it seems 0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:14.119 to work that if you are a woman and you 0:23:14.240 --> 0:23:18.440 have it all together, people really are really said about it. 0:23:18.600 --> 0:23:20.920 I's like, but they are. 0:23:20.960 --> 0:23:24.439 Said about it. But I also think there's a little 0:23:24.480 --> 0:23:30.080 bit of truth in it, because anyone who's acting like 0:23:30.119 --> 0:23:32.280 they've got it all together and perfect, I mean, I 0:23:32.320 --> 0:23:34.000 feel like I've met a lot of people now in 0:23:34.040 --> 0:23:39.040 real life, whether they're regular people or famous people or whatever, 0:23:39.080 --> 0:23:41.680 and I still haven't met anybody who in their real 0:23:41.760 --> 0:23:45.800 moments is like feels like they're nailing it, feels like 0:23:46.000 --> 0:23:49.600 they are at peace, whatever the hell that is. Feels 0:23:49.640 --> 0:23:52.160 like I still am Laverne. I don't know if you've 0:23:52.200 --> 0:23:54.439 noticed this, but I mean, I talk about it all 0:23:54.480 --> 0:23:59.720 the time. It's like our world calls successful people people 0:23:59.720 --> 0:24:03.520 who each a certain level of capitalism, right, and then 0:24:03.560 --> 0:24:06.840 we think, because of the way we're brainwashed, that those 0:24:06.880 --> 0:24:10.480