Speaker 1: Welcome to The Laverne Cox Show, a production of Shondaland
Speaker 1: Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: I think one of the things that we have in common,
Speaker 2: which it feels like there's a lot of things, but
Speaker 2: as I go back to my childhood, I'm like I
Speaker 2: was hungry. I was hungry for food. I was hungry
Speaker 2: for love, I was hungry for acceptance. I was queer.
Speaker 2: I had to get out of my body because there
Speaker 2: was all kinds of danger there.
Speaker 1: Hello, Hello, Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Laverne Cox Show.
Speaker 1: My name is Laverne Cox. Okay, here we go. Glennon
Speaker 1: Doyle is just She's such an incredible human being. We
Speaker 1: love her books, we love her podcast but like what
Speaker 1: I love most about her is her willingness to sit
Speaker 1: with discomfort, to process and create space. And it's my
Speaker 1: hope today that I can hold space with Glennon Doyle
Speaker 1: to do potentially some really hard things. Glennon Doyle is
Speaker 1: an author, activist, and podcast host. She is the author
Speaker 1: of the number one New York Times bestsellers Love Warrior
Speaker 1: and Untamed. Glennon hosts the award winning, super popular We
Speaker 1: Can Do Hard Things podcasts with her wife Abby Wambach,
Speaker 1: and her sister Amanda Doyle. Glennon is also the founder
Speaker 1: and president of Togetherizing and all women led nonprofit organization
Speaker 1: that has raised over fifty million dollars for women, families
Speaker 1: and children in crisis. Please enjoy my conversation with Glennon Doyle. Okay, folks,
Speaker 1: just a quick heads up. This was recorded in March
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three. Glennon and I talk about eating disorders, addiction,
Speaker 1: and re recovery. If you think this may be triggering
Speaker 1: for you, just go ahead and skip this episode. We'll
Speaker 1: meet back here next week. Hello Glennon, Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1: How are you feeling.
Speaker 2: I'm feeling good. This is the first other than my podcast.
Speaker 2: This is the first thing that I've done in like
Speaker 2: six months.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: I've made a no events or public interviews or anything
Speaker 2: rule for myself this year. So I hope I remember
Speaker 2: how to do this.
Speaker 1: Leverne, Why did you make that rule for yourself.
Speaker 2: While I entered recovery six months ago?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm aware. I've been listening.
Speaker 2: Oh so I don't know that there was something about
Speaker 2: I mean, I think probably early recovery for anybody requires
Speaker 2: a cutting out of a lot of things, just to
Speaker 2: focus on the one most important thing. But I am
Speaker 2: in recovery for ann and there is something that feels
Speaker 2: inherently like self objectifying about constantly putting yourself out there.
Speaker 2: I just needed to like live in my body for
Speaker 2: a good long time and not worry about an outer
Speaker 2: image or projection or any of that. I don't think
Speaker 2: I've been in my body for a very long time.
Speaker 2: So I actually found myself on stage liver and after
Speaker 2: I had been doing a lot of embodiment stuff, and
Speaker 2: for the first time, I was like, what the hell
Speaker 2: am I doing up here?
Speaker 1: This is terrifying to actually be in your body on stage. Yes,
Speaker 1: had you felt embodied before and then something took you
Speaker 1: out of your body? Or do you think you've never
Speaker 1: felt embodied?
Speaker 2: It's a great question. I became believemic when I was
Speaker 2: ten years old.
Speaker 1: Do you remember what was the trigger for the bliemia?
Speaker 1: Do you have an understanding of like, Okay, this is
Speaker 1: why I started doing this at ten.
Speaker 2: Well, I am in the middle of in this new level.
Speaker 2: I'm on a new level of recovery, and I'm in
Speaker 2: the process right now of looking back at my life
Speaker 2: and kind of revising the narratives that I have had
Speaker 2: about that. For example, Laverne, I have always said and
Speaker 2: written in memoirs, I just was born really extra sensitive.
Speaker 2: I actually wrote in my first memoir, I was just
Speaker 2: I had a magical childhood. I just was born broken.
Speaker 2: And I think when I got sober, because I've eating
Speaker 2: disorder turned into drug addiction and alcohol, and so I
Speaker 2: got sober when I was twenty five and I found
Speaker 2: out I was pregnant, and I just quit everything cold turkey,
Speaker 2: Like one day. I quit puking, I quit drugging, I
Speaker 2: quit drink, I quit smoking. It was just like everything
Speaker 2: at once. And I think I just like I jumped
Speaker 2: into eventually this writing career, in this public situation, and
Speaker 2: I just kind of wrote a tidy story for myself,
Speaker 2: like I didn't really want to look back at all
Speaker 2: of it.
Speaker 1: It's hard when I look back on for me, like
Speaker 1: food was love for me, So food was love my mom.
Speaker 1: My mom is amazing, and she did the best she could.
Speaker 1: That she was not affectionate, she was not loving, she
Speaker 1: was emotionally abusive. That she fed us, and like food
Speaker 1: was the way I felt love from her. So and
Speaker 1: so many of my trigger foods are childhood foods that
Speaker 1: I ate that evoked love for me. I was also
Speaker 1: sexually abused, I was bullied, and so recovery for me
Speaker 1: is about and I think I have heard you say
Speaker 1: something on one of your podcasts about like getting back
Speaker 1: to that child who is not traumatized, giving that child
Speaker 1: space to heal, reparenting her, caring for her, giving her
Speaker 1: other tools to use that are more adaptive than maladaptive.
Speaker 1: And yeah, does any that resonate with you around your
Speaker 1: every word?
Speaker 2: Okay, every word and so much of this round of recovery, Cliverne,
Speaker 2: I thought I was. I've been sober for twenty five years.
Speaker 2: I got sober, I haven't been drinking, I haven't been puking.
Speaker 2: I thought I was good. And I think this is
Speaker 2: an oversimplification, but I think I kind of solved my
Speaker 2: bolimia with anorexia.
Speaker 1: That's that's not unusual, right. So the binging enpuraging for
Speaker 1: you was, I'm assuming there was binging. Usually there is
Speaker 1: when you're a bleimic. So that was like having an
Speaker 1: out of control relatelationship to eating and then wanting to
Speaker 1: get rid of that food to stay thin. Was that
Speaker 1: about staying thin, controlling your body, just control. What was
Speaker 1: that about for you?
Speaker 2: I mean, as I look back with this new you know,
Speaker 2: I feel like sometimes we just look back on our
Speaker 2: lives and we're like, we just get a wider perspective,
Speaker 2: you know, when you see a picture and you can
Speaker 2: only see this one little piece, so you think, I
Speaker 2: think you've got it, Like maybe it was this, I
Speaker 2: mean I grew up. Part of the work of this
Speaker 2: time is to look at the narratives I've written and
Speaker 2: be like, really, Glenna, and were you just really sensitive
Speaker 2: and broken or did you grow up in a pretty
Speaker 2: tough house? Was it pretty rough? And then did you
Speaker 2: also grow you know, in a place where there was
Speaker 2: a lot of anger and a lot of complicity about
Speaker 2: that anger, and a lot of control in terms of
Speaker 2: food and bodies, and a lot of fat phobia, and
Speaker 2: a lot of just control, man, just control. And I
Speaker 2: think that the way I kind of feel now is
Speaker 2: that Bolimia was like a rebellion against all of it,
Speaker 2: because you just like, you can control yourself for a while,
Speaker 2: and you can like be good and you can not
Speaker 2: have an appetite and you cannot have desired You can
Speaker 2: be a robot. And then there are these moments where
Speaker 2: you're just like fuck it and you're like indulging. You're like,
Speaker 2: well I would have called it animal self, now I'm
Speaker 2: just it's human self, right, like indulging your hunger. It's
Speaker 2: just this rebellion against all the fake and all the control.
Speaker 2: And then there's a panic because because it's true a
Speaker 2: lot of it. We do live in a culture that
Speaker 2: does not want women, especially to show any proof of life,
Speaker 2: or any proof of appetite, or any proof of desire,
Speaker 2: any proof of being human. So the puke, the purging
Speaker 2: is like I have to get rid of the evidence.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh gos, the fat phobia is really really real.
Speaker 1: I interviewed Virgie Tobar, who's a fat activist, on my
Speaker 1: podcast last season, and she says in her book that
Speaker 1: just floors me still to this day, that most of
Speaker 1: us live and even though I'm weary of binaries, she
Speaker 1: says that most of us live in a culture where
Speaker 1: we are experiencing bigotry for being fat in a fat
Speaker 1: phobic culture, or we're living in fear of becoming fat
Speaker 1: and experiencing that bigotry. And the way she puts it
Speaker 1: in and captures it in terms of discrimination and a
Speaker 1: structural issue is really helpful in terms of how we
Speaker 1: in turn realize those things and how unconscious it is
Speaker 1: on so many different levels. Another thing that came up
Speaker 1: for me was what you just said, is that my
Speaker 1: therapist says to me is that if I do not
Speaker 1: give my inner child attention, if I don't give her
Speaker 1: spaces to play, she will go and run the show.
Speaker 1: And I think so much of my acting out historically
Speaker 1: has been about my little kid, that rebellious fuck it.
Speaker 1: So you're not going to pay any attention to me.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna just rage and I'm going to destroy you
Speaker 1: and like that. It's like that, fuck you, It's like
Speaker 1: this little kid. So, but if I can give her space,
Speaker 1: if I can give my inner child space to play,
Speaker 1: what do you need today? Oh you need to play
Speaker 1: dress up? Oh you need to post, or you need
Speaker 1: to dance, or you need to listen to music, whatever
Speaker 1: she needs. If I can start giving her that, if
Speaker 1: I can start listening to her and integrating her instead
Speaker 1: of abandoning her, Instead of abandoning her, I might cry
Speaker 1: on this one. This is this is we're doing hard things,
Speaker 1: talking about that we're doing real hard things really are
Speaker 1: that I can't abandon her. Oh my god, I've abandoned
Speaker 1: her so many times. Me too, And so much of
Speaker 1: my dysfunctional behavior, acting out addictive behavior has been about
Speaker 1: abandoning her. And you know, she was told that she
Speaker 1: didn't deserve to live or be here for so many
Speaker 1: different reasons. But she does. She does, and she's alive,
Speaker 1: and and she needs me.
Speaker 2: She needs me, you know, I just, uh, since you're
Speaker 2: being so vulnerable, I'll just tell you this, even though
Speaker 2: I can't believe I'm about to tell you this, but
Speaker 2: I have been doing the same work that you're doing,
Speaker 2: and about a week ago, I'm just like, when you're
Speaker 2: in recovery, you kind of pick up some other weird
Speaker 2: things because you lost yourself soothing thing, you know, it's
Speaker 2: like there's this first layer of recovery that's about stopping
Speaker 2: the thing that you're running to, which is like the booze,
Speaker 2: the food, the drugs, the what overshopping. For people who
Speaker 2: are less dramatic, like whatever it is that people do, it.
Speaker 1: Could be very dramatic overshopping.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's your lives have been ruined.
Speaker 1: It's very dramatic. And I think, yeah, I may need
Speaker 1: to talk to somebody anyway, go on.
Speaker 2: And then there's this second level that is the worst part.
Speaker 2: The first part's terrible and withdraws horrible, and but this
Speaker 2: other level of the recovery, which is like whether or
Speaker 2: not you stop the thing you're running from. And that's
Speaker 2: complicated because it's always a million different things. But I
Speaker 2: think that's one of the reasons why in the beginning,
Speaker 2: when you ask me why I stopped doing things publicly,
Speaker 2: I think maybe there's a version of me in the
Speaker 2: future who can handle it. But like what you said before,
Speaker 2: my child does not want to be on stages, does
Speaker 2: not want to be She's scared shitless all the time.
Speaker 1: I can't believe you're talking about as much as what
Speaker 1: you're talking about in your podcast, as raw as it is,
Speaker 1: as real as it is, as in the moment as
Speaker 1: it is the moment and the day you talked first
Speaker 1: about the relapse that was that was so that was hard,
Speaker 1: like that was hard to listen to. That was just
Speaker 1: it was brilliant that you were able to process it
Speaker 1: in the support that you had, I know, the support
Speaker 1: that you had from Abby and from your sister in
Speaker 1: that moment with like the way they held you in
Speaker 1: hell space for that. It's such what I That's the
Speaker 1: thing I probably love most about your podcast is how
Speaker 1: you're modeling holding space for the hard things like that,
Speaker 1: that you can have that you can have people in
Speaker 1: your life who you can be a will mess with,
Speaker 1: that you can be fully vulnerable and just broken with
Speaker 1: and they can hold space for you and love you
Speaker 1: even more and lift you up. I mean, it's like,
Speaker 1: So that is so fucking powerful what you guys are
Speaker 1: modeling on that podcast. That is like and I just
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful for it because I'm lucky that I
Speaker 1: have that in my life. But it's it's new for me.
Speaker 1: So I'm like, oh shit, this is like the real shit,
Speaker 1: Like this is like, oh my god. But they're doing
Speaker 1: it and they're loving and it's hard, and then you
Speaker 1: have kids on top of it. I'm doing this without children,
Speaker 1: and I'm doing this only in contact with my mother
Speaker 1: and my brother all the rest of the dysfunctional family. Girl,
Speaker 1: we don't do it. We don't do it. And my
Speaker 1: mom and I are in are good place now. I
Speaker 1: went back to Alabama for the first time for Thanksgiving
Speaker 1: and left un triggered for the first time. I'm fifty
Speaker 1: years old years old, so that's like that was a miracle.
Speaker 1: So but I don't fuck with like a lot of
Speaker 1: my family, and I don't have kids. That's a whole
Speaker 1: I don't really even know. I don't know how people
Speaker 1: have children, and I don't know how you have three.
Speaker 1: You're doing this and you have children.
Speaker 2: I mean, girl, but look, I find it oppositely amazing,
Speaker 2: like for you to be choosing to do this shit
Speaker 2: without the little people who are staring at you shaming you,
Speaker 2: Like I have to do this shit. I have to
Speaker 2: do this work because.
Speaker 1: So you don't raise dispunctional children.
Speaker 2: Yes, I have to break some of this generational shit.
Speaker 2: You know. Sometimes I get so pissed at the generation
Speaker 2: before me, my parents, for not doing the work so
Speaker 2: that I had to do all the work. And then
Speaker 2: and then I think about, maybe there's just moments generationally
Speaker 2: where there's a person in the line who just has
Speaker 2: enough space, power, privilege, money, because therapy costs so freaking much,
Speaker 2: so much money, support, like an amazing wife and sister,
Speaker 2: and like maybe generations of women before me are like,
Speaker 2: oh do it, like we couldn't.
Speaker 1: They did the best they can where I got to them.
Speaker 1: With my mother, she really did the best she could.
Speaker 1: And as I heard more stories about her childhood, her abusive,
Speaker 1: abusive father, who grew up on a plantation, and just
Speaker 1: I was always like, oh my, there were absolutely no tools.
Speaker 1: I mean, my grandmother was amazing, thank God. But it was,
Speaker 1: of course, of course, when I forgave her and continue
Speaker 1: to forgive her, and I'm like, she did the best
Speaker 1: she could. She's doing the best that she can. And
Speaker 1: oh my god, I love that Brene Brown moment. I've
Speaker 1: interviewed Brenee. I'll try to convince the story. But Brene
Speaker 1: basically says, if we believe that people are doing the
Speaker 1: best that they can, and she she's hardwareed to believe
Speaker 1: people are sucking up on purpose, independs are off. But
Speaker 1: if we believe that people are doing the best that
Speaker 1: they can, then what do we need to do? And
Speaker 1: boundaries becomes that thing that we need to do, and
Speaker 1: the boundaries are like I love boundaries, me.
Speaker 2: Too, I love boundaries, my favorite and but but it
Speaker 2: happened to me. I think, well, for solivern, I can
Speaker 2: become addicted to anything, me too, Like there is nothing,
Speaker 2: nothing is safe for me. Okay, So I think that
Speaker 2: I became addicted to boundaries, like I think when I
Speaker 2: found boundaries, I was just like, oh, this is the solve,
Speaker 2: this is how you know. I'll never forget my I
Speaker 2: think I think I mentioned this on my podcast. I
Speaker 2: don't know if I did. My therapist said to me
Speaker 2: on one of the first like anorexia beginning therapy sessions,
Speaker 2: how is how you deal with people the same as
Speaker 2: how you deal with food.
Speaker 1: Oh oh oh, oh oh oh. I'm sorry that question
Speaker 1: just like, yeah, that question just stucked me up. Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna write that down.
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, well, I have like three safe
Speaker 2: foods and then I protect myself from every other food
Speaker 2: because I have decided what's good and what's bad, and
Speaker 2: what's safe and what's dangerous, like I had. There's a
Speaker 2: million ways, and I have like three people that I
Speaker 2: trust in the whole world, and everyone else is not safe.
Speaker 2: I have so many boundaries.
Speaker 1: The wait three safe foods?
Speaker 2: I was so weird.
Speaker 1: What was it? Where were three safe foods? I don't
Speaker 1: know if I don't want to trigger anyone out there,
Speaker 1: but no.
Speaker 2: They were like anything to do with vegetables, like it
Speaker 2: you know, antarexticy just becomes like this religion of restriction,
Speaker 2: and it's just you know what it is. It's to
Speaker 2: me if if bulimia is like rebellion against the rules
Speaker 2: of control and food, nott phobia and all of it,
Speaker 2: then anarexia is like extreme compliance. Right. I was like,
Speaker 2: I'll be bad, and then I got pregnant. I was like, Okay,
Speaker 2: i'll be good. I'll be good. I'll be good. I'll
Speaker 2: be good, and I just like controlled, controlled, controlled, controlled.
Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting to me when you talked about getting
Speaker 1: pregnant and stopping everything. There are a lot of people who,
Speaker 1: particularly in AA, stop drinking but don't deal with the
Speaker 1: underlying issues, and they're basically dry drunks. Do you think
Speaker 1: that you were like, uh, dry drunk dry, you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: eating disorder or I don't know what the legue may
Speaker 1: be eating disorder.
Speaker 2: I don't know what the word is either, but yes,
Speaker 2: I think so.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and created a nice, neat story that worked for
Speaker 1: you and has been very successful for you, and then
Speaker 1: it all sort of has kind of fallen apart a
Speaker 1: little bit. I don't know, fall apart might not. That
Speaker 1: may seem judgmental, but no, fall apart feels relief to me. Okay,
Speaker 1: good when you.
Speaker 2: Say fall apart, that feels like I don't know why,
Speaker 2: but in my body that feels like, yeah, it feels
Speaker 2: like the opposite of trying to keep is.
Speaker 1: This, Like, Okay, I don't have to be perfect anymore.
Speaker 1: I don't have to keep up appearances anymore. I can
Speaker 1: just be.
Speaker 2: The jig is up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a good time to take a little break.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back though, Okay, we're back. So goshka perfect.
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like that there's so much about
Speaker 1: around perfectionism, and I think about that like the thing
Speaker 1: to keep it all together, right, Like I have to
Speaker 1: keep it together for you, if with kids, with the children.
Speaker 1: For me, it was I mean, god, it was just shame.
Speaker 1: It was like being black and trans and all of
Speaker 1: this sort of misconceptions and things that people have about
Speaker 1: black women, black trans women, wanting to make my mother
Speaker 1: proud and then becoming famous and needing to represent my
Speaker 1: community and doing it and I've done it imperfectly, but
Speaker 1: like having that pressure of like I can't fuck up
Speaker 1: because this is going to reflect badly on an entire community.
Speaker 1: The pressure of all that and I wonder too for you,
Speaker 1: and you talk a bit about it on the podcast
Speaker 1: that like so many people look to you, and you've
Speaker 1: always said, from my understanding of your worked that like
Speaker 1: you don't have all the answers and that you're in process.
Speaker 1: But do you think that even as you confess that
Speaker 1: that there's like I still have to be perfect from
Speaker 1: my audience, or do you give yourself permission? Obviously you
Speaker 1: give yourself permission to be imperfect in theory, but in
Speaker 1: fully in practice, do you feel like it's fully there
Speaker 1: or is it slippery?
Speaker 2: It's slippery. And here's a weird thing that I've noticed recently,
Speaker 2: so it's been six months now where I've been completely offline,
Speaker 2: because here's a weird thing to learn, is that I
Speaker 2: not only didn't want to see the criticism of the
Speaker 2: eating disorder and the imperfection, I didn't want to see
Speaker 2: the praise of the vulnerability. Because there's something about public
Speaker 2: women where the more busted up you are, the more
Speaker 2: beloved you are. And like I see it. Sometimes I'll
Speaker 2: see a friend who's famous and a woman and doing
Speaker 2: things and it's like the second she becomes too powerful
Speaker 2: or famous or something shiny happens, you'll see them post like, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm like a busted up thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not relatable to people when you seem too perfect,
Speaker 1: and when we are messy and revealed, you know, the struggles.
Speaker 1: I let's say the struggles. It's human and people can
Speaker 1: relate to it. But then also people want to tear
Speaker 1: that perfect woman down and it's it's women. And why
Speaker 1: is it always women? I mean, it's just the way
Speaker 1: patriarchy seems to work and peerreless. Why supremacist capitalist patriarchy
Speaker 1: to quote Bell Hooks, It's just the way it seems
Speaker 1: to work that if you are a woman and you
Speaker 1: have it all together, people really are really said about it.
Speaker 1: I's like, but they are.
Speaker 2: Said about it. But I also think there's a little
Speaker 2: bit of truth in it, because anyone who's acting like
Speaker 2: they've got it all together and perfect, I mean, I
Speaker 2: feel like I've met a lot of people now in
Speaker 2: real life, whether they're regular people or famous people or whatever,
Speaker 2: and I still haven't met anybody who in their real
Speaker 2: moments is like feels like they're nailing it, feels like
Speaker 2: they are at peace, whatever the hell that is. Feels
Speaker 2: like I still am Laverne. I don't know if you've
Speaker 2: noticed this, but I mean, I talk about it all
Speaker 2: the time. It's like our world calls successful people people
Speaker 2: who each a certain level of capitalism, right, and then
Speaker 2: we think, because of the way we're brainwashed, that those
Speaker 2: are going to be the people who are happy. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: and they're always I shouldn't say always. All we keep
Speaker 2: finding is that it's the inverse.
Speaker 1: What I realized in two thousand and nine had a
Speaker 1: show on VH one and I was starring in my
Speaker 1: own show for the first time, as a makeover show,
Speaker 1: and I was producing it, and it was my dream realized.
Speaker 1: And I thought my childhood self thought when that happened,
Speaker 1: all of my childhood trauma would go away, and it
Speaker 1: actually got worse. It was like I was acting out
Speaker 1: like crazy, and I was like and that's when I
Speaker 1: went into my journey of trying to recover and figure
Speaker 1: out what the fuck was going on because I didn't
Speaker 1: want to sabotage my dreams. So I guess my dream
Speaker 1: is like my kids. It's like the equivalent of your kids,
Speaker 1: like my dreams, you know, of the life that I'm
Speaker 1: living now. I didn't want to sabotage it, and so
Speaker 1: that was like okay, and then I realized it was
Speaker 1: an inside job. Nothing outside of ourselves can actually fix us.
Speaker 1: We can have tools, we can have wonderful therapy, we
Speaker 1: can have wonderful ways to regulate our nervous systems, we
Speaker 1: can have love in our lives that can come you know,
Speaker 1: come in. But ultimately even like I mean, I had
Speaker 1: a moment with my aunt, with my amazing, incredible boyfriend
Speaker 1: who just his emotional intelligence just blows me away. And
Speaker 1: I had a moment with him one night. We were
Speaker 1: talking and and it's been two and a half years
Speaker 1: and I had I went into this shame spiral. We
Speaker 1: were on the couch and I and I started talking
Speaker 1: and over explaining and I was just like, WHOA, what's
Speaker 1: going on. I was like, babe, let me go to
Speaker 1: the bathroom and get myself together. And I have tools
Speaker 1: to regulate from my trauma resilience work, and I was
Speaker 1: I was like, what's going on in my body? And
Speaker 1: I know when it's hysterical, it's historical. So this actually
Speaker 1: is not about what's going on right now. He's amazing
Speaker 1: and he's supportive. This isn't him. This is my own narrative.
Speaker 1: And I fucked myself up like in that. I just
Speaker 1: I was such a it was a shame spiral and
Speaker 1: I felt it in my body. And I love what
Speaker 1: Brenee says, when you're in shame, to get out of
Speaker 1: the room, don't text, don't call anyone, try to you know.
Speaker 1: And that's what they did, and that's what I was
Speaker 1: able to do in the moment. I come in the
Speaker 1: bathroom for a while and I'm like, okay, and i'd
Speaker 1: subtle and I'm like, okay, this is shame. And when
Speaker 1: we name shame, it dissipates, you know, eighty five percent.
Speaker 1: When the shame is met with empathy. It's even better,
Speaker 1: according to Brenee, than a lot of Brene Brown work.
Speaker 1: Then I go back, go back into the living room
Speaker 1: and I'm like, Babe, I was in a shame spiral.
Speaker 1: I'm better now. I just need to like, let's just
Speaker 1: let's leave it.
Speaker 2: Look at that that's huge.
Speaker 1: He was like, Babe, it's okay, and he just held me.
Speaker 1: But knowing when you're in it, being able to bring
Speaker 1: yourself out of it if you can, and having someone
Speaker 1: whole space for you and meet you with empathy and
Speaker 1: then that like the the stuff is still there even
Speaker 1: when it's better, and how it's really stories. And there
Speaker 1: was one of the one podcast recently we were talking
Speaker 1: about letting go of the thoughts. You know, we know
Speaker 1: in recovery, like feelings aren't facts and then thoughts aren't commands, right,
Speaker 1: And there was a moment in one of the podcasts
Speaker 1: when you sort of talked about the soul. We were
Speaker 1: talking about like two different parts of your brain having
Speaker 1: this conversation, this fight with itself, and then you're watching
Speaker 1: it and then it's like, I think you used to
Speaker 1: metaphor with the three ring circus. I think it's what
Speaker 1: we're thinking, what we're feeling, and then what's going on
Speaker 1: in the outside world, and then our consciousness is observing
Speaker 1: all those things, and so it's like, how do I
Speaker 1: detach from all three of those things and just be
Speaker 1: in pure consciousness? Is that? I think that's the work,
Speaker 1: And as I I mean so many so much of
Speaker 1: my work lately has been about letting go of thoughts,
Speaker 1: just letting them go because none of them, none of
Speaker 1: them are serving me, like honestly, and this is the
Speaker 1: thing about being someone Obviously you're very analytical you're very
Speaker 1: You're like a very smart woman. I you know, I'm
Speaker 1: a thinker. I'm a you know, and some and that's wonderful.
Speaker 1: But then sometimes that can kind of just we can
Speaker 1: think ourselves into insanity.
Speaker 2: Yeah, my mind is good for when I give it
Speaker 2: a job. Okay, if I'm like mine, we have a job.
Speaker 2: We're gonna do an interview with so and so. We're
Speaker 2: going to read this book. We're going to figure out
Speaker 2: what's important about this person. We're gonna we're going to
Speaker 2: put together a beautiful thing. We're going to write a book.
Speaker 2: We're going to do this. That fine, But like when
Speaker 2: I when it doesn't have a job, and it's just
Speaker 2: like I'm not controlling it, it's controlling me. No good,
Speaker 2: we go nowhere good And for me, I will always
Speaker 2: be obsessed with narrative. I will be trying to figure
Speaker 2: out who the hell I am and telling stories until
Speaker 2: the day I die. I'm sure of it.
Speaker 1: In the absence of evidence, we create stories. I think
Speaker 1: that's a right something like that.
Speaker 2: But what you're pointing at is that is not the
Speaker 2: most evolved way to be. That is not the most
Speaker 2: peaceful way to be. Whenever we're talking about narrative or story.
Speaker 2: We're still in the thought mind. We're still you know
Speaker 2: what we are in the past.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: The thing I love about this round of recovery for
Speaker 2: me is that it is about living from inside of
Speaker 2: my body. It is about rejecting this old idea that
Speaker 2: we are our minds and we're just like wearing our body.
Speaker 2: That the mind is a more real us, more strong us,
Speaker 2: more evolved us, and the body is just something to overcome.
Speaker 1: It's very Cartesian and it's very exactly it's very old school.
Speaker 1: It's very sort of patriarchal too. There's so much feminist
Speaker 1: thought around thinking through the body, and we know the
Speaker 1: body keeps a score. But my therapy, the therapy I'm
Speaker 1: doing is somatic work that's based in trauma resilience, So
Speaker 1: it's really all about the body. It's all about tracking
Speaker 1: the body. My therapist likes to remind me, and I
Speaker 1: remind myself that twenty percent of my information comes from
Speaker 1: the brain down and eighty percent comes from the body up.
Speaker 1: And then on the Doctor Becky podcast, but she said
Speaker 1: is that the memories that we have between birth and
Speaker 1: three years old, our bodies have that memory that like
Speaker 1: our bodies are really this hardwiring. It really is about
Speaker 1: the body, and the body's not separate from the mind.
Speaker 1: They're all connected. And so the somatic work that I've
Speaker 1: been doing and sensing into my body and finally being
Speaker 1: able to, like, after what is it seven years with
Speaker 1: my current therapist, kind of being able to like the
Speaker 1: fact that I was able to regulate with my boyfriend
Speaker 1: in the way I was that night and not completely
Speaker 1: sabotage the relationships, start a fight and break up because
Speaker 1: that would have been girl, that would have been me,
Speaker 1: like maybe five years ago, you know, definitely ten years ago,
Speaker 1: that would have been it. I probably wouldn't lasted two
Speaker 1: and a half years with this man because I would
Speaker 1: have started a fight, because I would have done some
Speaker 1: crazy stuff because of my historical trauma. But to be
Speaker 1: able to sit in my body to track which is
Speaker 1: one of the tools of the community Resiliency model, one
Speaker 1: of the six tools, to track what's going on in
Speaker 1: my body, to be able to like identify that I
Speaker 1: was out of my zone. That's the whole idea of zones.
Speaker 1: Do you know this work? Do you know? Oh girl?
Speaker 1: It's kind of everything. But basically the idea is to
Speaker 1: be in your resilient zone. And this is created from
Speaker 1: the Trauma Research Institute. I did two podcasts with my
Speaker 1: therapist Jennifer Burden Flyer in the last season. People can
Speaker 1: reference it well. But our work is to track what's
Speaker 1: going on with our bodies and to begin to regulate
Speaker 1: and so we can stay in our zone and then
Speaker 1: ultimately widen our zone. My therapist also said that our
Speaker 1: collective resilient zone because we can co regulate too. What's
Speaker 1: so beautiful about what you do? What I see you
Speaker 1: doing in your podcast with abing with your sisters, that
Speaker 1: you guys are co regulating. You co regulate each other's
Speaker 1: nervous systems with that support, which is great. But we
Speaker 1: also want to be able to self regulate, to be
Speaker 1: able to identify what's going on in our bodies if
Speaker 1: we're bumped into high zone and low zone, and what
Speaker 1: can I do to get back into my resilience. The
Speaker 1: techniques are grounding, gesturing, shift and stay tracking is one
Speaker 1: of them. Resourcing, Oh, resourcing is huge, and I think
Speaker 1: I'm forgetting one and all these tools. Oh I'm helped
Speaker 1: now help now it's a sixth one. All these different
Speaker 1: tools can basically, get us grounded, get us in the moment,
Speaker 1: get us in our bodies. It's all about being embodied.
Speaker 1: And I think that a lot of therapy. I've been
Speaker 1: in therapy for twenty three years. A lot of therapy
Speaker 1: is awesome and great. But if it's not embodied, if
Speaker 1: we don't feel it in our nervous systems, it's not
Speaker 1: going to land. And so that's the hardwiring, the rewiring
Speaker 1: that has to take place in the trauma resiliency work
Speaker 1: that I think doctor Becky talked about on your podcast,
Speaker 1: that we're in the maladaptive heartwiring. I love that moment.
Speaker 1: I had never heard that there where our bodies are
Speaker 1: constantly looking for ways to rewire in healthy ways that
Speaker 1: I had never heard. Isn't that amazing. We're on our
Speaker 1: own side, we're on our own sides, and when we
Speaker 1: don't want to do something, it's our bodies tell telling us.
Speaker 1: It's that was genius. That was genius. Because I don't
Speaker 1: like working out either. I I try to move now
Speaker 1: for energy and like I'm fifty and I just want
Speaker 1: to stay mobile, But I hate working out. It's like
Speaker 1: I don't have a trainer. I can't go to a
Speaker 1: zumba class again, I can't.
Speaker 2: I don't do anything. I have. My podcast is we
Speaker 2: can do hard things, and I do no hard things.
Speaker 2: When it comes to I'm so done. I just don't
Speaker 2: believe in it anymore. I am done believing it. Like
Speaker 2: I no longer think when I look at somebody who
Speaker 2: has a perfectly chiseled whatever body, I no longer think, oh,
Speaker 2: they've got it figured out. All I think is how
Speaker 2: much hustle and time of their life it took to
Speaker 2: create that, and how much rest they missed out on,
Speaker 2: and how much beauty they missed out on. I mean,
Speaker 2: this is so judgmental, but that is what I think now. Like,
Speaker 2: I don't look at somebody who's made it to the
Speaker 2: top of like a beauty or hustle culture and think
Speaker 2: they've got it. The pinnacle of that doesn't look like
Speaker 2: successful me anymore.
Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting to me about all the beauty hierarchy,
Speaker 1: and I love that you put it that way. Kimberly
Speaker 1: Foster talks a lot about that. Founder for Harriet talks
Speaker 1: about the beauty hierarchy, and I love that I'm able
Speaker 1: to kind of like understand that some people might think
Speaker 1: I'm attractive and other people might not. And then because
Speaker 1: I'm trans I'll never be attractive to some people. And
Speaker 1: so I'm able to keep that in perspective and relationship
Speaker 1: to me. And then I look at other people and
Speaker 1: there's I mean, I was thinking about one specific celebrity
Speaker 1: who has just had so much work done and keeps
Speaker 1: having work done and the body shifting all the time.
Speaker 1: It just seems like it's like never going to be enough,
Speaker 1: you know enough.
Speaker 2: That word is not that. Let us please just sit
Speaker 2: with that for a minute. I am convinced that that
Speaker 2: is the answer. Is like everyone figuring out what is
Speaker 2: enough and like because in terms of you know, capitalism,
Speaker 2: public life, beauty, there's no it's like the house always wins. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's set up that way if you're lucky enough to
Speaker 2: like get a great hand out to you. And like
Speaker 2: that's how I think about my work, Like a lot
Speaker 2: of freaking luck there. Like just know when to fold
Speaker 2: and look at your life and.
Speaker 1: Be like enough. I think it's enough with dieting, it's
Speaker 1: enough with surgery. It's enough money, it's enough fame, it's enough.
Speaker 1: Like Brene, I'm sorry I keep talking about Brenne now,
Speaker 1: but she says, she says so many good things. She
Speaker 1: has diagnosed as as living in scarcity culture where we're
Speaker 1: never enough, We're never been enough, rich enough, relevant, enough
Speaker 1: enough attention. I mean, like I didn't get enough engagement
Speaker 1: on this post. Why didn't I get a lot of engagement?
Speaker 1: What's going on? You know? So and just being like girl,
Speaker 1: it's not that sorious.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and sometimes we just have to give ourselves a break,
Speaker 2: Like I don't think that because there's something wrong with me.
Speaker 2: I think that because that's the way the system is
Speaker 2: set up for us to think.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, that's why.
Speaker 2: These algorithms exist actly because we are like those little mice.
Speaker 2: The game is set up for us to keep coming
Speaker 2: back for more, to never think it's enough to know so,
Speaker 2: you know, sometimes we just have to step away from
Speaker 2: it to protect ourselves. Like that is what this time
Speaker 2: is for me, is just like wait, let me get
Speaker 2: back to my life and look at it and see
Speaker 2: how much beauty and enoughness is here, because I actually
Speaker 2: only start to feel the scarcity interestingly enough, when I'm
Speaker 2: in media.
Speaker 1: Explain what comes up when you're in media? What do
Speaker 1: you think that's what's going.
Speaker 2: On in my real life. There's a lot of different
Speaker 2: kinds of bodies. Like when I'm at the store, I
Speaker 2: live in LA Like when I'm at the store, when
Speaker 2: I'm out, like, I see a lot of different shapes
Speaker 2: of bodies. I see a lot of different ways of being.
Speaker 2: When I get on media, I feel like there's something
Speaker 2: that's being poured into me is that there's just one
Speaker 2: way to be, that what I'm supposed to be doing
Speaker 2: is hustling, that I'm supposed to be perfecting myself in
Speaker 2: all these areas, and that scarcity thing comes up that
Speaker 2: you're talking about, And I feel like when we talk
Speaker 2: about embodiment, right, I have to live right now from
Speaker 2: the inside out, like I can't. The second I like
Speaker 2: start worrying about a post, then I'm literally self objectifying.
Speaker 2: I'm no longer living in the moment and looking out
Speaker 2: at my life. I'm looking out from my life at
Speaker 2: myself because I'm looking at this picture, I'm looking at
Speaker 2: this post or I'm like, I just can't do it
Speaker 2: for a while, Like I can't. That's why I can't
Speaker 2: be on stage. That's why I'm only doing an interview
Speaker 2: with you, because I was like, I'm only going to
Speaker 2: do interviews with people who if they came to my house,
Speaker 2: I would want to sit with them on my couch
Speaker 2: and talk to them for real.
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you so much for that.
Speaker 2: And it doesn't feel like a thing that I'm doing
Speaker 2: like an object out in the world. It feels real,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: And I think they think of objectifying ourselves. It's like
Speaker 1: such a It's something I've wrestled with, like wanting to
Speaker 1: be body positive and embrace and love my body, but
Speaker 1: then like where's the line between that and objectifying myself?
Speaker 1: And there's just something about being a woman in media,
Speaker 1: like a host Red Carpets now, where it's that's just
Speaker 1: kind of the job. Like it's almost inherently even if
Speaker 1: you're like you're this feminist, you know, because I'm an
Speaker 1: intersectional feminist as well, and so it's like I should
Speaker 1: be above all this, I should know better. I mean,
Speaker 1: the shame of that, that story, that's that shaming story.
Speaker 1: But there's something about being in the media as a woman,
Speaker 1: no matter what you're doing. You could be running for president,
Speaker 1: you could be in Congress, you could be you know what,
Speaker 1: a nuclear scientists, and people are going to pick apart
Speaker 1: your parents and that is that's cis normative, heteronormative, impeeriless, white, supremacist, capitalist, patriarchy.
Speaker 1: We have to name it. It's fat phobia, it's colorism.
Speaker 1: It's all these systems that are affecting our lives that
Speaker 1: people are imposing on us, and we internalize and impose
Speaker 1: on ourselves, and so there has to be a critical
Speaker 1: awareness around that, at least to the extent that it
Speaker 1: doesn't drive us crazy. There's so only so many interventions
Speaker 1: that I can do with this normative, heteronormative, impeerless, why supremacist, capless, patriarchal,
Speaker 1: fat phobic culture. But what can I do with me
Speaker 1: so that I'm okay? And I mean I'm working in
Speaker 1: that system. I mean I've got my wigs, and I
Speaker 1: do my makeup and I do all my glam shit,
Speaker 1: and a lot of that is about so much of
Speaker 1: that is about survival. So much of that is about
Speaker 1: for me as a trans woman, and even before I
Speaker 1: was famous, it was about survival and a world, really
Speaker 1: hostile world. It's about it's work. I mean, it's cultural currency.
Speaker 1: It's work. But there's the other part that loves to
Speaker 1: dress up, and I love fashion, and I'm trying to
Speaker 1: like get back to that I did. I'd like this
Speaker 1: morning after I was I was prepping and I was like,
Speaker 1: I have to say I was triggered and some of
Speaker 1: the preps for this podcast, and I was like, girl,
Speaker 1: what do you need right now? What is little Lavernie?
Speaker 1: And I've put on some muglayer, I've collected finches muglairer,
Speaker 1: and I've played dress up and I danced in the
Speaker 1: mirror like I did when I was eight years old.
Speaker 1: And so there's that piece of like, yes, there are
Speaker 1: all these systems in place, but there's something that's pure
Speaker 1: where I find joy in the beauty of it and
Speaker 1: the art of it. And I can honor that and
Speaker 1: understand all these other things are operating, but I can
Speaker 1: honor that. Okay, it's that time again. We'll be right back.
Speaker 1: We are back. Can you talk a little bit about
Speaker 1: like your relationship to being a feminist and the ways
Speaker 1: in which you've internalized, if I might say, internalized, these
Speaker 1: ideas about how you're supposed to look and that you're
Speaker 1: struggling with this eating disorder that is I think partly
Speaker 1: a product of a misogynist, bat phobic, absolutely patriarchal culture.
Speaker 2: Well, a couple months after I went into recovery therapy,
Speaker 2: I came home from a walk. I go for long
Speaker 2: walks by myself every morning. It's my thing. And I said, Abby, down,
Speaker 2: I said, I figured out what I'm going to do.
Speaker 2: I figured out the answer. And I think I was
Speaker 2: feeling a lot of shame for being inter exic. It
Speaker 2: was not like super comfortable or cool or a proud
Speaker 2: moment to have been the author of unt aimed, of
Speaker 2: the feminist whole thing, and then to announce that I
Speaker 2: have been inner exic. I felt like such a like
Speaker 2: a fraudulent feeling or something. And so I was. I
Speaker 2: said to Abby, I am on the beach. I figured
Speaker 2: out no more. I'm never having botox again, I'm never
Speaker 2: dying my hair again. I'm going to get off social
Speaker 2: media completely. And there was something else, some other beauty rule.
Speaker 2: I wasn't going to buy any clothes for a year,
Speaker 2: Like this was the answer. Okay, like I had been.
Speaker 2: I had been a bad feminist role model. So Abby
Speaker 2: just looked at me like okay. So I talked to
Speaker 2: my therapist, like two weeks later, I report this to her,
Speaker 2: as if she's going to be proud of me right,
Speaker 2: because I actually think I've I've figured it out, I've
Speaker 2: nailed it. And she says, okay. You know a lot
Speaker 2: of times people who don't have an internal locus of
Speaker 2: control are constantly making outer loci of control m And
Speaker 2: I was like, okay, whatever, I'm not even I'm amazing
Speaker 2: at not hearing what I don't want to hear and
Speaker 2: continuing on. It took my sixteen year old sitting on
Speaker 2: my bathroom floor a couple weeks later, and she said, Mom,
Speaker 2: do you think it's a good idea, this early in
Speaker 2: your recovery to be making all of these rules for yourself?
Speaker 1: Jesus Christ, the children.
Speaker 2: This is what I did. I just put my finger
Speaker 2: up and said hold on a second, and I picked
Speaker 2: up my phone that was on the counter in the bathroom,
Speaker 2: and I texted my hairdresser before I even answered my child,
Speaker 2: and I was like, I'm coming back in. When's the
Speaker 2: soon as you can get me in?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 2: And thank God, Laverne, I had just gotten botox before
Speaker 2: I made this role, so I never even had missed
Speaker 2: an appointment. But what I want to say to you
Speaker 2: about that I love it is that I don't have
Speaker 2: an fing clue. I don't know. I'm just but here's
Speaker 2: what I'm going to do. I hope I will get
Speaker 2: to the point or I think maybe because I'm committed
Speaker 2: to learning and I'm committed to being open any volment,
Speaker 2: that maybe I will get to a point where I
Speaker 2: won't want to get botox and do all these things
Speaker 2: because maybe my life will be so full and I'll
Speaker 2: be so whatever that I won't even want to. But
Speaker 2: I'm not going to make myself do anything until I
Speaker 2: actually want it, you know what I mean. I'm not
Speaker 2: making rules because that's just like another version of anorexia.
Speaker 2: Like it's not it's a fake outside control thing, and
Speaker 2: I want whatever this internal locus of control is the
Speaker 2: vern this is what I'm going for. I think it's embodiment, right,
Speaker 2: It's what you're talking about. It's checking in, it's honoring
Speaker 2: the inner child. It's going back to when we were
Speaker 2: a kid. I mean, I think one of the things
Speaker 2: that we have in common, which it feels like there's
Speaker 2: a lot of things, but as I go back to
Speaker 2: my childhood, I'm like, I was hungry. I was hungry
Speaker 2: for food, I was hungry for love, I was hungry
Speaker 2: for acceptance. I was queer. I had to get out
Speaker 2: of my body because there's all kinds of danger there.
Speaker 1: The disassociation is so real for me, and a lot
Speaker 1: of people who have struggled with eating disorders, with weight
Speaker 1: issues or whatever talk about the difficulty of being in
Speaker 1: their bodies, and as a trans woman like I did
Speaker 1: not feel in my body for a really long time.
Speaker 1: So there's something so powerful about being able to be embody,
Speaker 1: to be in your body, and to live present in it.
Speaker 1: It's kind of everything that is really the healings in
Speaker 1: the podcast. We've run out of time, but I like
Speaker 1: to end the podcast with the question what else is true?
Speaker 1: And this actually comes from my trauma resilience therapy, the
Speaker 1: idea of both, and specially even though we're struggling, even
Speaker 1: though the world is on fire literally right now, something
Speaker 1: else is true. There's something that gets me through, There's
Speaker 1: something that brings me joy, a resource, one of the
Speaker 1: tools of the community resiliency model. So for you today,
Speaker 1: Glennon Doyle, what else is true? Well?
Speaker 2: Today, I guess what's true is that I can show
Speaker 2: up for an interview like this and have it feel
Speaker 2: real and feel connected and be embodied oh oh, that's
Speaker 2: pretty nice and new for me.
Speaker 1: A day at a time, A day at a time. Oh,
Speaker 1: thank you so much, Thank you so much for being
Speaker 1: so open and vulnerable about this. Thank you for protecting yourself.
Speaker 1: I think that's so important when you're struggling, and particularly
Speaker 1: in you're early in recovery, to like just protect that
Speaker 1: and like not put yourself in any situation it's going
Speaker 1: to compromise you. So brava, brava. Thank you for joining me.
Speaker 1: It's this been really special.
Speaker 2: You're just so wonderful and so honest and so real
Speaker 2: and so beautiful. Thank you for trusting me with this hour.
Speaker 1: I believe what makes us human, what connects all of us,
Speaker 1: is that we all struggle. We all struggle with something
Speaker 1: and having the courage to reveal what the struggle actually
Speaker 1: looks like. When you're trying to heal from and recover
Speaker 1: from an eating disorder or whatever it is you're struggling
Speaker 1: with your life, this is what it looks like. It
Speaker 1: is messy, it's scary, you don't always know. You take
Speaker 1: it a day at a time though, when there's hope,
Speaker 1: and what was really beautiful about Glennon today is that
Speaker 1: she's like, I have no idea, I have a lot
Speaker 1: of questions, but I'm hopeful. Oh it's so beautiful. And
Speaker 1: one of the things she says in our podcast is
Speaker 1: that we often will hear about the struggle, but we
Speaker 1: don't really get to witness the messy process, the messy
Speaker 1: pieces and parts of what it means to really heal
Speaker 1: one's self. And I think the story is, if there's
Speaker 1: any conclusion, it's that it's all okay. You know, it's
Speaker 1: okay to be struggling. One of the beautiful things though,
Speaker 1: for people who are in recovery, is that relapses are
Speaker 1: I learned years ago. When you have a relapse, it
Speaker 1: is a wonderful opportunity to grow that relapses are part
Speaker 1: of the process. It doesn't mean that you're a failure.
Speaker 1: It actually is an opportunity to deepen your recovery, to
Speaker 1: deepen your healing. And this is what we're witnessing with Glennon,
Speaker 1: and that is actually a beautiful thing. Every now and
Speaker 1: then I fall apart totally clips of the heart, Bondie Tyler,
Speaker 1: we can fall apart and put ourselves back together. And
Speaker 1: actually the falling apart, the falling apart, actually can be
Speaker 1: what Glennon implied and actually I think taught us today
Speaker 1: is that the falling apart is like, that's the shit,
Speaker 1: that's real, That is the stuff of what it means
Speaker 1: to be human. So yeah, fall apart, be messy, that's life.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to The Laverne Cox Show. Please rate, review,
Speaker 1: subscribe and share with everyone you know. You can find
Speaker 1: me on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok at Laverne Cox and
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Laverne Cox for reel. Until next time,
Speaker 1: stay in the love. The Laverne Cox Show is a
Speaker 1: production of Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more
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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.