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Speaker 1: Welcome to The Laverne Cox Show, a production of Shondaland

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Speaker 1: Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: I think one of the things that we have in common,

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Speaker 2: which it feels like there's a lot of things, but

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Speaker 2: as I go back to my childhood, I'm like I

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Speaker 2: was hungry. I was hungry for food. I was hungry

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Speaker 2: for love, I was hungry for acceptance. I was queer.

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Speaker 2: I had to get out of my body because there

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Speaker 2: was all kinds of danger there.

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Speaker 1: Hello, Hello, Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Laverne Cox Show.

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Speaker 1: My name is Laverne Cox. Okay, here we go. Glennon

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Speaker 1: Doyle is just She's such an incredible human being. We

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Speaker 1: love her books, we love her podcast but like what

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Speaker 1: I love most about her is her willingness to sit

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Speaker 1: with discomfort, to process and create space. And it's my

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Speaker 1: hope today that I can hold space with Glennon Doyle

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Speaker 1: to do potentially some really hard things. Glennon Doyle is

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Speaker 1: an author, activist, and podcast host. She is the author

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Speaker 1: of the number one New York Times bestsellers Love Warrior

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Speaker 1: and Untamed. Glennon hosts the award winning, super popular We

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Speaker 1: Can Do Hard Things podcasts with her wife Abby Wambach,

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Speaker 1: and her sister Amanda Doyle. Glennon is also the founder

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Speaker 1: and president of Togetherizing and all women led nonprofit organization

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Speaker 1: that has raised over fifty million dollars for women, families

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Speaker 1: and children in crisis. Please enjoy my conversation with Glennon Doyle. Okay, folks,

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Speaker 1: just a quick heads up. This was recorded in March

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty three. Glennon and I talk about eating disorders, addiction,

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Speaker 1: and re recovery. If you think this may be triggering

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Speaker 1: for you, just go ahead and skip this episode. We'll

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Speaker 1: meet back here next week. Hello Glennon, Welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: How are you feeling.

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Speaker 2: I'm feeling good. This is the first other than my podcast.

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Speaker 2: This is the first thing that I've done in like

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Speaker 2: six months.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: I've made a no events or public interviews or anything

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Speaker 2: rule for myself this year. So I hope I remember

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Speaker 2: how to do this.

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Speaker 1: Leverne, Why did you make that rule for yourself.

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Speaker 2: While I entered recovery six months ago?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm aware. I've been listening.

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Speaker 2: Oh so I don't know that there was something about

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think probably early recovery for anybody requires

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Speaker 2: a cutting out of a lot of things, just to

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Speaker 2: focus on the one most important thing. But I am

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Speaker 2: in recovery for ann and there is something that feels

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Speaker 2: inherently like self objectifying about constantly putting yourself out there.

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Speaker 2: I just needed to like live in my body for

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Speaker 2: a good long time and not worry about an outer

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Speaker 2: image or projection or any of that. I don't think

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Speaker 2: I've been in my body for a very long time.

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Speaker 2: So I actually found myself on stage liver and after

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Speaker 2: I had been doing a lot of embodiment stuff, and

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Speaker 2: for the first time, I was like, what the hell

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Speaker 2: am I doing up here?

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Speaker 1: This is terrifying to actually be in your body on stage. Yes,

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Speaker 1: had you felt embodied before and then something took you

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Speaker 1: out of your body? Or do you think you've never

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Speaker 1: felt embodied?

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Speaker 2: It's a great question. I became believemic when I was

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Speaker 2: ten years old.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember what was the trigger for the bliemia?

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Speaker 1: Do you have an understanding of like, Okay, this is

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Speaker 1: why I started doing this at ten.

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Speaker 2: Well, I am in the middle of in this new level.

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Speaker 2: I'm on a new level of recovery, and I'm in

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Speaker 2: the process right now of looking back at my life

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Speaker 2: and kind of revising the narratives that I have had

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Speaker 2: about that. For example, Laverne, I have always said and

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Speaker 2: written in memoirs, I just was born really extra sensitive.

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Speaker 2: I actually wrote in my first memoir, I was just

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Speaker 2: I had a magical childhood. I just was born broken.

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Speaker 2: And I think when I got sober, because I've eating

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Speaker 2: disorder turned into drug addiction and alcohol, and so I

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Speaker 2: got sober when I was twenty five and I found

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Speaker 2: out I was pregnant, and I just quit everything cold turkey,

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Speaker 2: Like one day. I quit puking, I quit drugging, I

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Speaker 2: quit drink, I quit smoking. It was just like everything

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Speaker 2: at once. And I think I just like I jumped

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Speaker 2: into eventually this writing career, in this public situation, and

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Speaker 2: I just kind of wrote a tidy story for myself,

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Speaker 2: like I didn't really want to look back at all

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Speaker 2: of it.

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Speaker 1: It's hard when I look back on for me, like

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Speaker 1: food was love for me, So food was love my mom.

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Speaker 1: My mom is amazing, and she did the best she could.

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Speaker 1: That she was not affectionate, she was not loving, she

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Speaker 1: was emotionally abusive. That she fed us, and like food

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Speaker 1: was the way I felt love from her. So and

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Speaker 1: so many of my trigger foods are childhood foods that

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Speaker 1: I ate that evoked love for me. I was also

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Speaker 1: sexually abused, I was bullied, and so recovery for me

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Speaker 1: is about and I think I have heard you say

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Speaker 1: something on one of your podcasts about like getting back

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Speaker 1: to that child who is not traumatized, giving that child

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Speaker 1: space to heal, reparenting her, caring for her, giving her

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Speaker 1: other tools to use that are more adaptive than maladaptive.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, does any that resonate with you around your

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Speaker 1: every word?

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Speaker 2: Okay, every word and so much of this round of recovery, Cliverne,

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Speaker 2: I thought I was. I've been sober for twenty five years.

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Speaker 2: I got sober, I haven't been drinking, I haven't been puking.

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Speaker 2: I thought I was good. And I think this is

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Speaker 2: an oversimplification, but I think I kind of solved my

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Speaker 2: bolimia with anorexia.

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Speaker 1: That's that's not unusual, right. So the binging enpuraging for

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Speaker 1: you was, I'm assuming there was binging. Usually there is

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Speaker 1: when you're a bleimic. So that was like having an

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Speaker 1: out of control relatelationship to eating and then wanting to

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Speaker 1: get rid of that food to stay thin. Was that

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Speaker 1: about staying thin, controlling your body, just control. What was

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Speaker 1: that about for you?

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Speaker 2: I mean, as I look back with this new you know,

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Speaker 2: I feel like sometimes we just look back on our

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Speaker 2: lives and we're like, we just get a wider perspective,

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Speaker 2: you know, when you see a picture and you can

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Speaker 2: only see this one little piece, so you think, I

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Speaker 2: think you've got it, Like maybe it was this, I

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Speaker 2: mean I grew up. Part of the work of this

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Speaker 2: time is to look at the narratives I've written and

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Speaker 2: be like, really, Glenna, and were you just really sensitive

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Speaker 2: and broken or did you grow up in a pretty

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Speaker 2: tough house? Was it pretty rough? And then did you

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Speaker 2: also grow you know, in a place where there was

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Speaker 2: a lot of anger and a lot of complicity about

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Speaker 2: that anger, and a lot of control in terms of

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Speaker 2: food and bodies, and a lot of fat phobia, and

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Speaker 2: a lot of just control, man, just control. And I

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Speaker 2: think that the way I kind of feel now is

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Speaker 2: that Bolimia was like a rebellion against all of it,

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Speaker 2: because you just like, you can control yourself for a while,

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Speaker 2: and you can like be good and you can not

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Speaker 2: have an appetite and you cannot have desired You can

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Speaker 2: be a robot. And then there are these moments where

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Speaker 2: you're just like fuck it and you're like indulging. You're like,

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Speaker 2: well I would have called it animal self, now I'm

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Speaker 2: just it's human self, right, like indulging your hunger. It's

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Speaker 2: just this rebellion against all the fake and all the control.

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Speaker 2: And then there's a panic because because it's true a

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Speaker 2: lot of it. We do live in a culture that

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Speaker 2: does not want women, especially to show any proof of life,

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Speaker 2: or any proof of appetite, or any proof of desire,

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Speaker 2: any proof of being human. So the puke, the purging

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Speaker 2: is like I have to get rid of the evidence.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, oh gos, the fat phobia is really really real.

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Speaker 1: I interviewed Virgie Tobar, who's a fat activist, on my

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Speaker 1: podcast last season, and she says in her book that

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Speaker 1: just floors me still to this day, that most of

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Speaker 1: us live and even though I'm weary of binaries, she

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Speaker 1: says that most of us live in a culture where

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Speaker 1: we are experiencing bigotry for being fat in a fat

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Speaker 1: phobic culture, or we're living in fear of becoming fat

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Speaker 1: and experiencing that bigotry. And the way she puts it

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Speaker 1: in and captures it in terms of discrimination and a

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Speaker 1: structural issue is really helpful in terms of how we

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Speaker 1: in turn realize those things and how unconscious it is

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Speaker 1: on so many different levels. Another thing that came up

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Speaker 1: for me was what you just said, is that my

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Speaker 1: therapist says to me is that if I do not

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Speaker 1: give my inner child attention, if I don't give her

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Speaker 1: spaces to play, she will go and run the show.

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Speaker 1: And I think so much of my acting out historically

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Speaker 1: has been about my little kid, that rebellious fuck it.

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Speaker 1: So you're not going to pay any attention to me.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna just rage and I'm going to destroy you

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Speaker 1: and like that. It's like that, fuck you, It's like

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Speaker 1: this little kid. So, but if I can give her space,

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Speaker 1: if I can give my inner child space to play,

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Speaker 1: what do you need today? Oh you need to play

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Speaker 1: dress up? Oh you need to post, or you need

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Speaker 1: to dance, or you need to listen to music, whatever

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Speaker 1: she needs. If I can start giving her that, if

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Speaker 1: I can start listening to her and integrating her instead

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Speaker 1: of abandoning her, Instead of abandoning her, I might cry

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Speaker 1: on this one. This is this is we're doing hard things,

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Speaker 1: talking about that we're doing real hard things really are

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Speaker 1: that I can't abandon her. Oh my god, I've abandoned

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Speaker 1: her so many times. Me too, And so much of

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Speaker 1: my dysfunctional behavior, acting out addictive behavior has been about

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Speaker 1: abandoning her. And you know, she was told that she

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Speaker 1: didn't deserve to live or be here for so many

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Speaker 1: different reasons. But she does. She does, and she's alive,

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Speaker 1: and and she needs me.

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Speaker 2: She needs me, you know, I just, uh, since you're

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Speaker 2: being so vulnerable, I'll just tell you this, even though

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Speaker 2: I can't believe I'm about to tell you this, but

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Speaker 2: I have been doing the same work that you're doing,

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Speaker 2: and about a week ago, I'm just like, when you're

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Speaker 2: in recovery, you kind of pick up some other weird

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Speaker 2: things because you lost yourself soothing thing, you know, it's

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Speaker 2: like there's this first layer of recovery that's about stopping

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Speaker 2: the thing that you're running to, which is like the booze,

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Speaker 2: the food, the drugs, the what overshopping. For people who

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Speaker 2: are less dramatic, like whatever it is that people do, it.

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Speaker 1: Could be very dramatic overshopping.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's your lives have been ruined.

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Speaker 1: It's very dramatic. And I think, yeah, I may need

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Speaker 1: to talk to somebody anyway, go on.

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Speaker 2: And then there's this second level that is the worst part.

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Speaker 2: The first part's terrible and withdraws horrible, and but this

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Speaker 2: other level of the recovery, which is like whether or

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Speaker 2: not you stop the thing you're running from. And that's

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Speaker 2: complicated because it's always a million different things. But I

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Speaker 2: think that's one of the reasons why in the beginning,

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Speaker 2: when you ask me why I stopped doing things publicly,

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Speaker 2: I think maybe there's a version of me in the

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Speaker 2: future who can handle it. But like what you said before,

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Speaker 2: my child does not want to be on stages, does

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Speaker 2: not want to be She's scared shitless all the time.

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Speaker 1: I can't believe you're talking about as much as what

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Speaker 1: you're talking about in your podcast, as raw as it is,

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Speaker 1: as real as it is, as in the moment as

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Speaker 1: it is the moment and the day you talked first

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Speaker 1: about the relapse that was that was so that was hard,

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Speaker 1: like that was hard to listen to. That was just

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Speaker 1: it was brilliant that you were able to process it

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Speaker 1: in the support that you had, I know, the support

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Speaker 1: that you had from Abby and from your sister in

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Speaker 1: that moment with like the way they held you in

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Speaker 1: hell space for that. It's such what I That's the

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Speaker 1: thing I probably love most about your podcast is how

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Speaker 1: you're modeling holding space for the hard things like that,

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Speaker 1: that you can have that you can have people in

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Speaker 1: your life who you can be a will mess with,

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Speaker 1: that you can be fully vulnerable and just broken with

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Speaker 1: and they can hold space for you and love you

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Speaker 1: even more and lift you up. I mean, it's like,

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Speaker 1: So that is so fucking powerful what you guys are

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Speaker 1: modeling on that podcast. That is like and I just

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Speaker 1: I'm so grateful for it because I'm lucky that I

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Speaker 1: have that in my life. But it's it's new for me.

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Speaker 1: So I'm like, oh shit, this is like the real shit,

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Speaker 1: Like this is like, oh my god. But they're doing

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Speaker 1: it and they're loving and it's hard, and then you

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Speaker 1: have kids on top of it. I'm doing this without children,

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Speaker 1: and I'm doing this only in contact with my mother

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Speaker 1: and my brother all the rest of the dysfunctional family. Girl,

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Speaker 1: we don't do it. We don't do it. And my

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Speaker 1: mom and I are in are good place now. I

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Speaker 1: went back to Alabama for the first time for Thanksgiving

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Speaker 1: and left un triggered for the first time. I'm fifty

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Speaker 1: years old years old, so that's like that was a miracle.

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Speaker 1: So but I don't fuck with like a lot of

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Speaker 1: my family, and I don't have kids. That's a whole

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Speaker 1: I don't really even know. I don't know how people

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Speaker 1: have children, and I don't know how you have three.

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Speaker 1: You're doing this and you have children.

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Speaker 2: I mean, girl, but look, I find it oppositely amazing,

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Speaker 2: like for you to be choosing to do this shit

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Speaker 2: without the little people who are staring at you shaming you,

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Speaker 2: Like I have to do this shit. I have to

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Speaker 2: do this work because.

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Speaker 1: So you don't raise dispunctional children.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I have to break some of this generational shit.

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Speaker 2: You know. Sometimes I get so pissed at the generation

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Speaker 2: before me, my parents, for not doing the work so

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Speaker 2: that I had to do all the work. And then

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Speaker 2: and then I think about, maybe there's just moments generationally

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Speaker 2: where there's a person in the line who just has

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Speaker 2: enough space, power, privilege, money, because therapy costs so freaking much,

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Speaker 2: so much money, support, like an amazing wife and sister,

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Speaker 2: and like maybe generations of women before me are like,

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Speaker 2: oh do it, like we couldn't.

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Speaker 1: They did the best they can where I got to them.

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Speaker 1: With my mother, she really did the best she could.

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Speaker 1: And as I heard more stories about her childhood, her abusive,

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Speaker 1: abusive father, who grew up on a plantation, and just

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Speaker 1: I was always like, oh my, there were absolutely no tools.

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Speaker 1: I mean, my grandmother was amazing, thank God. But it was,

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Speaker 1: of course, of course, when I forgave her and continue

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Speaker 1: to forgive her, and I'm like, she did the best

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Speaker 1: she could. She's doing the best that she can. And

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Speaker 1: oh my god, I love that Brene Brown moment. I've

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Speaker 1: interviewed Brenee. I'll try to convince the story. But Brene

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Speaker 1: basically says, if we believe that people are doing the

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Speaker 1: best that they can, and she she's hardwareed to believe

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Speaker 1: people are sucking up on purpose, independs are off. But

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Speaker 1: if we believe that people are doing the best that

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Speaker 1: they can, then what do we need to do? And

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Speaker 1: boundaries becomes that thing that we need to do, and

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Speaker 1: the boundaries are like I love boundaries, me.

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Speaker 2: Too, I love boundaries, my favorite and but but it

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Speaker 2: happened to me. I think, well, for solivern, I can

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Speaker 2: become addicted to anything, me too, Like there is nothing,

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Speaker 2: nothing is safe for me. Okay, So I think that

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Speaker 2: I became addicted to boundaries, like I think when I

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Speaker 2: found boundaries, I was just like, oh, this is the solve,

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Speaker 2: this is how you know. I'll never forget my I

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Speaker 2: think I think I mentioned this on my podcast. I

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Speaker 2: don't know if I did. My therapist said to me

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Speaker 2: on one of the first like anorexia beginning therapy sessions,

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Speaker 2: how is how you deal with people the same as

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Speaker 2: how you deal with food.

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Speaker 1: Oh oh oh, oh oh oh. I'm sorry that question

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Speaker 1: just like, yeah, that question just stucked me up. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna write that down.

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Speaker 2: I was like, oh, well, I have like three safe

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Speaker 2: foods and then I protect myself from every other food

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Speaker 2: because I have decided what's good and what's bad, and

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Speaker 2: what's safe and what's dangerous, like I had. There's a

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Speaker 2: million ways, and I have like three people that I

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Speaker 2: trust in the whole world, and everyone else is not safe.

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Speaker 2: I have so many boundaries.

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Speaker 1: The wait three safe foods?

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Speaker 2: I was so weird.

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Speaker 1: What was it? Where were three safe foods? I don't

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Speaker 1: know if I don't want to trigger anyone out there,

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Speaker 1: but no.

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Speaker 2: They were like anything to do with vegetables, like it

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Speaker 2: you know, antarexticy just becomes like this religion of restriction,

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Speaker 2: and it's just you know what it is. It's to

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Speaker 2: me if if bulimia is like rebellion against the rules

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Speaker 2: of control and food, nott phobia and all of it,

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Speaker 2: then anarexia is like extreme compliance. Right. I was like,

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Speaker 2: I'll be bad, and then I got pregnant. I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: i'll be good. I'll be good. I'll be good. I'll

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Speaker 2: be good, and I just like controlled, controlled, controlled, controlled.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting to me when you talked about getting

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Speaker 1: pregnant and stopping everything. There are a lot of people who,

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Speaker 1: particularly in AA, stop drinking but don't deal with the

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Speaker 1: underlying issues, and they're basically dry drunks. Do you think

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Speaker 1: that you were like, uh, dry drunk dry, you know, yeah,

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Speaker 1: eating disorder or I don't know what the legue may

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Speaker 1: be eating disorder.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what the word is either, but yes,

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Speaker 2: I think so.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and created a nice, neat story that worked for

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Speaker 1: you and has been very successful for you, and then

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Speaker 1: it all sort of has kind of fallen apart a

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Speaker 1: little bit. I don't know, fall apart might not. That

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Speaker 1: may seem judgmental, but no, fall apart feels relief to me. Okay,

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Speaker 1: good when you.

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Speaker 2: Say fall apart, that feels like I don't know why,

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Speaker 2: but in my body that feels like, yeah, it feels

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Speaker 2: like the opposite of trying to keep is.

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Speaker 1: This, Like, Okay, I don't have to be perfect anymore.

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Speaker 1: I don't have to keep up appearances anymore. I can

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Speaker 1: just be.

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Speaker 2: The jig is up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a good time to take a little break.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back though, Okay, we're back. So goshka perfect.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like that there's so much about

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Speaker 1: around perfectionism, and I think about that like the thing

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Speaker 1: to keep it all together, right, Like I have to

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Speaker 1: keep it together for you, if with kids, with the children.

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Speaker 1: For me, it was I mean, god, it was just shame.

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Speaker 1: It was like being black and trans and all of

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Speaker 1: this sort of misconceptions and things that people have about

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Speaker 1: black women, black trans women, wanting to make my mother

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Speaker 1: proud and then becoming famous and needing to represent my

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Speaker 1: community and doing it and I've done it imperfectly, but

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Speaker 1: like having that pressure of like I can't fuck up

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Speaker 1: because this is going to reflect badly on an entire community.

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Speaker 1: The pressure of all that and I wonder too for you,

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Speaker 1: and you talk a bit about it on the podcast

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Speaker 1: that like so many people look to you, and you've

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Speaker 1: always said, from my understanding of your worked that like

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Speaker 1: you don't have all the answers and that you're in process.

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Speaker 1: But do you think that even as you confess that

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Speaker 1: that there's like I still have to be perfect from

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Speaker 1: my audience, or do you give yourself permission? Obviously you

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Speaker 1: give yourself permission to be imperfect in theory, but in

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Speaker 1: fully in practice, do you feel like it's fully there

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Speaker 1: or is it slippery?

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Speaker 2: It's slippery. And here's a weird thing that I've noticed recently,

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Speaker 2: so it's been six months now where I've been completely offline,

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Speaker 2: because here's a weird thing to learn, is that I

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Speaker 2: not only didn't want to see the criticism of the

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Speaker 2: eating disorder and the imperfection, I didn't want to see

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Speaker 2: the praise of the vulnerability. Because there's something about public

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Speaker 2: women where the more busted up you are, the more

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Speaker 2: beloved you are. And like I see it. Sometimes I'll

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Speaker 2: see a friend who's famous and a woman and doing

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Speaker 2: things and it's like the second she becomes too powerful

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Speaker 2: or famous or something shiny happens, you'll see them post like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I'm like a busted up thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not relatable to people when you seem too perfect,

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Speaker 1: and when we are messy and revealed, you know, the struggles.

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Speaker 1: I let's say the struggles. It's human and people can

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Speaker 1: relate to it. But then also people want to tear

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Speaker 1: that perfect woman down and it's it's women. And why

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Speaker 1: is it always women? I mean, it's just the way

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Speaker 1: patriarchy seems to work and peerreless. Why supremacist capitalist patriarchy

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Speaker 1: to quote Bell Hooks, It's just the way it seems

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Speaker 1: to work that if you are a woman and you

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Speaker 1: have it all together, people really are really said about it.

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Speaker 1: I's like, but they are.

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Speaker 2: Said about it. But I also think there's a little

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Speaker 2: bit of truth in it, because anyone who's acting like

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Speaker 2: they've got it all together and perfect, I mean, I

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Speaker 2: feel like I've met a lot of people now in

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Speaker 2: real life, whether they're regular people or famous people or whatever,

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Speaker 2: and I still haven't met anybody who in their real

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Speaker 2: moments is like feels like they're nailing it, feels like

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Speaker 2: they are at peace, whatever the hell that is. Feels

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Speaker 2: like I still am Laverne. I don't know if you've

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Speaker 2: noticed this, but I mean, I talk about it all

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Speaker 2: the time. It's like our world calls successful people people

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Speaker 2: who each a certain level of capitalism, right, and then

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Speaker 2: we think, because of the way we're brainwashed, that those

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Speaker 2: are going to be the people who are happy. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: and they're always I shouldn't say always. All we keep

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Speaker 2: finding is that it's the inverse.

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Speaker 1: What I realized in two thousand and nine had a

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Speaker 1: show on VH one and I was starring in my

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Speaker 1: own show for the first time, as a makeover show,

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Speaker 1: and I was producing it, and it was my dream realized.

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Speaker 1: And I thought my childhood self thought when that happened,

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Speaker 1: all of my childhood trauma would go away, and it

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Speaker 1: actually got worse. It was like I was acting out

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Speaker 1: like crazy, and I was like and that's when I

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Speaker 1: went into my journey of trying to recover and figure

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Speaker 1: out what the fuck was going on because I didn't

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Speaker 1: want to sabotage my dreams. So I guess my dream

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Speaker 1: is like my kids. It's like the equivalent of your kids,

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Speaker 1: like my dreams, you know, of the life that I'm

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Speaker 1: living now. I didn't want to sabotage it, and so

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Speaker 1: that was like okay, and then I realized it was

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Speaker 1: an inside job. Nothing outside of ourselves can actually fix us.

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Speaker 1: We can have tools, we can have wonderful therapy, we

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Speaker 1: can have wonderful ways to regulate our nervous systems, we

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Speaker 1: can have love in our lives that can come you know,

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Speaker 1: come in. But ultimately even like I mean, I had

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Speaker 1: a moment with my aunt, with my amazing, incredible boyfriend

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Speaker 1: who just his emotional intelligence just blows me away. And

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Speaker 1: I had a moment with him one night. We were

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Speaker 1: talking and and it's been two and a half years

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Speaker 1: and I had I went into this shame spiral. We

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Speaker 1: were on the couch and I and I started talking

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Speaker 1: and over explaining and I was just like, WHOA, what's

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Speaker 1: going on. I was like, babe, let me go to

432
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 1: the bathroom and get myself together. And I have tools

433
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 1: to regulate from my trauma resilience work, and I was

434
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 1: I was like, what's going on in my body? And

435
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 1: I know when it's hysterical, it's historical. So this actually

436
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,160
Speaker 1: is not about what's going on right now. He's amazing

437
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 1: and he's supportive. This isn't him. This is my own narrative.

438
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 1: And I fucked myself up like in that. I just

439
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:02,879
Speaker 1: I was such a it was a shame spiral and

440
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,199
Speaker 1: I felt it in my body. And I love what

441
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 1: Brenee says, when you're in shame, to get out of

442
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,719
Speaker 1: the room, don't text, don't call anyone, try to you know.

443
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 1: And that's what they did, and that's what I was

444
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 1: able to do in the moment. I come in the

445
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,880
Speaker 1: bathroom for a while and I'm like, okay, and i'd

446
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 1: subtle and I'm like, okay, this is shame. And when

447
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,679
Speaker 1: we name shame, it dissipates, you know, eighty five percent.

448
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 1: When the shame is met with empathy. It's even better,

449
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 1: according to Brenee, than a lot of Brene Brown work.

450
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 1: Then I go back, go back into the living room

451
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 1: and I'm like, Babe, I was in a shame spiral.

452
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 1: I'm better now. I just need to like, let's just

453
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 1: let's leave it.

454
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 2: Look at that that's huge.

455
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 1: He was like, Babe, it's okay, and he just held me.

456
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 1: But knowing when you're in it, being able to bring

457
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 1: yourself out of it if you can, and having someone

458
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,440
Speaker 1: whole space for you and meet you with empathy and

459
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 1: then that like the the stuff is still there even

460
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: when it's better, and how it's really stories. And there

461
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 1: was one of the one podcast recently we were talking

462
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,239
Speaker 1: about letting go of the thoughts. You know, we know

463
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: in recovery, like feelings aren't facts and then thoughts aren't commands, right,

464
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 1: And there was a moment in one of the podcasts

465
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 1: when you sort of talked about the soul. We were

466
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 1: talking about like two different parts of your brain having

467
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,119
Speaker 1: this conversation, this fight with itself, and then you're watching

468
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,159
Speaker 1: it and then it's like, I think you used to

469
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 1: metaphor with the three ring circus. I think it's what

470
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,439
Speaker 1: we're thinking, what we're feeling, and then what's going on

471
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 1: in the outside world, and then our consciousness is observing

472
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 1: all those things, and so it's like, how do I

473
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,159
Speaker 1: detach from all three of those things and just be

474
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: in pure consciousness? Is that? I think that's the work,

475
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,679
Speaker 1: And as I I mean so many so much of

476
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 1: my work lately has been about letting go of thoughts,

477
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 1: just letting them go because none of them, none of

478
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 1: them are serving me, like honestly, and this is the

479
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: thing about being someone Obviously you're very analytical you're very

480
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,919
Speaker 1: You're like a very smart woman. I you know, I'm

481
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 1: a thinker. I'm a you know, and some and that's wonderful.

482
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 1: But then sometimes that can kind of just we can

483
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 1: think ourselves into insanity.

484
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, my mind is good for when I give it

485
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 2: a job. Okay, if I'm like mine, we have a job.

486
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 2: We're gonna do an interview with so and so. We're

487
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:24,679
Speaker 2: going to read this book. We're going to figure out

488
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,159
Speaker 2: what's important about this person. We're gonna we're going to

489
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,880
Speaker 2: put together a beautiful thing. We're going to write a book.

490
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 2: We're going to do this. That fine, But like when

491
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 2: I when it doesn't have a job, and it's just

492
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 2: like I'm not controlling it, it's controlling me. No good,

493
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 2: we go nowhere good And for me, I will always

494
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 2: be obsessed with narrative. I will be trying to figure

495
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 2: out who the hell I am and telling stories until

496
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:52,719
Speaker 2: the day I die. I'm sure of it.

497
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 1: In the absence of evidence, we create stories. I think

498
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 1: that's a right something like that.

499
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 2: But what you're pointing at is that is not the

500
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 2: most evolved way to be. That is not the most

501
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 2: peaceful way to be. Whenever we're talking about narrative or story.

502
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 2: We're still in the thought mind. We're still you know

503
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 2: what we are in the past.

504
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 1: Yeah.

505
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 2: The thing I love about this round of recovery for

506
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 2: me is that it is about living from inside of

507
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 2: my body. It is about rejecting this old idea that

508
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 2: we are our minds and we're just like wearing our body.

509
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 2: That the mind is a more real us, more strong us,

510
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 2: more evolved us, and the body is just something to overcome.

511
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 1: It's very Cartesian and it's very exactly it's very old school.

512
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 1: It's very sort of patriarchal too. There's so much feminist

513
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 1: thought around thinking through the body, and we know the

514
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 1: body keeps a score. But my therapy, the therapy I'm

515
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 1: doing is somatic work that's based in trauma resilience, So

516
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 1: it's really all about the body. It's all about tracking

517
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 1: the body. My therapist likes to remind me, and I

518
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 1: remind myself that twenty percent of my information comes from

519
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 1: the brain down and eighty percent comes from the body up.

520
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: And then on the Doctor Becky podcast, but she said

521
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: is that the memories that we have between birth and

522
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 1: three years old, our bodies have that memory that like

523
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 1: our bodies are really this hardwiring. It really is about

524
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 1: the body, and the body's not separate from the mind.

525
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 1: They're all connected. And so the somatic work that I've

526
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 1: been doing and sensing into my body and finally being

527
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: able to, like, after what is it seven years with

528
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 1: my current therapist, kind of being able to like the

529
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:36,719
Speaker 1: fact that I was able to regulate with my boyfriend

530
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 1: in the way I was that night and not completely

531
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: sabotage the relationships, start a fight and break up because

532
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 1: that would have been girl, that would have been me,

533
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: like maybe five years ago, you know, definitely ten years ago,

534
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 1: that would have been it. I probably wouldn't lasted two

535
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 1: and a half years with this man because I would

536
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 1: have started a fight, because I would have done some

537
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: crazy stuff because of my historical trauma. But to be

538
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 1: able to sit in my body to track which is

539
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 1: one of the tools of the community Resiliency model, one

540
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 1: of the six tools, to track what's going on in

541
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: my body, to be able to like identify that I

542
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 1: was out of my zone. That's the whole idea of zones.

543
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 1: Do you know this work? Do you know? Oh girl?

544
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 1: It's kind of everything. But basically the idea is to

545
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: be in your resilient zone. And this is created from

546
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 1: the Trauma Research Institute. I did two podcasts with my

547
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: therapist Jennifer Burden Flyer in the last season. People can

548
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: reference it well. But our work is to track what's

549
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 1: going on with our bodies and to begin to regulate

550
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: and so we can stay in our zone and then

551
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 1: ultimately widen our zone. My therapist also said that our

552
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 1: collective resilient zone because we can co regulate too. What's

553
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: so beautiful about what you do? What I see you

554
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 1: doing in your podcast with abing with your sisters, that

555
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 1: you guys are co regulating. You co regulate each other's

556
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 1: nervous systems with that support, which is great. But we

557
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: also want to be able to self regulate, to be

558
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: able to identify what's going on in our bodies if

559
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 1: we're bumped into high zone and low zone, and what

560
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 1: can I do to get back into my resilience. The

561
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: techniques are grounding, gesturing, shift and stay tracking is one

562
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 1: of them. Resourcing, Oh, resourcing is huge, and I think

563
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 1: I'm forgetting one and all these tools. Oh I'm helped

564
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 1: now help now it's a sixth one. All these different

565
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: tools can basically, get us grounded, get us in the moment,

566
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 1: get us in our bodies. It's all about being embodied.

567
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 1: And I think that a lot of therapy. I've been

568
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: in therapy for twenty three years. A lot of therapy

569
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: is awesome and great. But if it's not embodied, if

570
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,719
Speaker 1: we don't feel it in our nervous systems, it's not

571
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 1: going to land. And so that's the hardwiring, the rewiring

572
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: that has to take place in the trauma resiliency work

573
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 1: that I think doctor Becky talked about on your podcast,

574
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 1: that we're in the maladaptive heartwiring. I love that moment.

575
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: I had never heard that there where our bodies are

576
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 1: constantly looking for ways to rewire in healthy ways that

577
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 1: I had never heard. Isn't that amazing. We're on our

578
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 1: own side, we're on our own sides, and when we

579
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 1: don't want to do something, it's our bodies tell telling us.

580
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: It's that was genius. That was genius. Because I don't

581
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 1: like working out either. I I try to move now

582
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 1: for energy and like I'm fifty and I just want

583
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 1: to stay mobile, But I hate working out. It's like

584
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 1: I don't have a trainer. I can't go to a

585
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 1: zumba class again, I can't.

586
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 2: I don't do anything. I have. My podcast is we

587
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 2: can do hard things, and I do no hard things.

588
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 2: When it comes to I'm so done. I just don't

589
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 2: believe in it anymore. I am done believing it. Like

590
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 2: I no longer think when I look at somebody who

591
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 2: has a perfectly chiseled whatever body, I no longer think, oh,

592
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,719
Speaker 2: they've got it figured out. All I think is how

593
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 2: much hustle and time of their life it took to

594
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 2: create that, and how much rest they missed out on,

595
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 2: and how much beauty they missed out on. I mean,

596
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 2: this is so judgmental, but that is what I think now. Like,

597
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 2: I don't look at somebody who's made it to the

598
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 2: top of like a beauty or hustle culture and think

599
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 2: they've got it. The pinnacle of that doesn't look like

600
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 2: successful me anymore.

601
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,240
Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting to me about all the beauty hierarchy,

602
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,360
Speaker 1: and I love that you put it that way. Kimberly

603
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 1: Foster talks a lot about that. Founder for Harriet talks

604
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,760
Speaker 1: about the beauty hierarchy, and I love that I'm able

605
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: to kind of like understand that some people might think

606
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,280
Speaker 1: I'm attractive and other people might not. And then because

607
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 1: I'm trans I'll never be attractive to some people. And

608
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:30,799
Speaker 1: so I'm able to keep that in perspective and relationship

609
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 1: to me. And then I look at other people and

610
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,320
Speaker 1: there's I mean, I was thinking about one specific celebrity

611
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: who has just had so much work done and keeps

612
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 1: having work done and the body shifting all the time.

613
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 1: It just seems like it's like never going to be enough,

614
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 1: you know enough.

615
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:53,399
Speaker 2: That word is not that. Let us please just sit

616
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 2: with that for a minute. I am convinced that that

617
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 2: is the answer. Is like everyone figuring out what is

618
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:05,919
Speaker 2: enough and like because in terms of you know, capitalism,

619
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 2: public life, beauty, there's no it's like the house always wins. Yeah,

620
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 2: it's set up that way if you're lucky enough to

621
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 2: like get a great hand out to you. And like

622
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 2: that's how I think about my work, Like a lot

623
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:22,760
Speaker 2: of freaking luck there. Like just know when to fold

624
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 2: and look at your life and.

625
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 1: Be like enough. I think it's enough with dieting, it's

626
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:35,800
Speaker 1: enough with surgery. It's enough money, it's enough fame, it's enough.

627
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 1: Like Brene, I'm sorry I keep talking about Brenne now,

628
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: but she says, she says so many good things. She

629
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 1: has diagnosed as as living in scarcity culture where we're

630
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,240
Speaker 1: never enough, We're never been enough, rich enough, relevant, enough

631
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: enough attention. I mean, like I didn't get enough engagement

632
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 1: on this post. Why didn't I get a lot of engagement?

633
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 1: What's going on? You know? So and just being like girl,

634
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 1: it's not that sorious.

635
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, and sometimes we just have to give ourselves a break,

636
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 2: Like I don't think that because there's something wrong with me.

637
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 2: I think that because that's the way the system is

638
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:11,879
Speaker 2: set up for us to think.

639
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 1: Absolutely, that's why.

640
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 2: These algorithms exist actly because we are like those little mice.

641
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 2: The game is set up for us to keep coming

642
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 2: back for more, to never think it's enough to know so,

643
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 2: you know, sometimes we just have to step away from

644
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 2: it to protect ourselves. Like that is what this time

645
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 2: is for me, is just like wait, let me get

646
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:34,959
Speaker 2: back to my life and look at it and see

647
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 2: how much beauty and enoughness is here, because I actually

648
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:43,359
Speaker 2: only start to feel the scarcity interestingly enough, when I'm

649
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:44,399
Speaker 2: in media.

650
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 1: Explain what comes up when you're in media? What do

651
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 1: you think that's what's going.

652
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 2: On in my real life. There's a lot of different

653
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 2: kinds of bodies. Like when I'm at the store, I

654
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 2: live in LA Like when I'm at the store, when

655
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:02,320
Speaker 2: I'm out, like, I see a lot of different shapes

656
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,800
Speaker 2: of bodies. I see a lot of different ways of being.

657
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 2: When I get on media, I feel like there's something

658
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 2: that's being poured into me is that there's just one

659
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 2: way to be, that what I'm supposed to be doing

660
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 2: is hustling, that I'm supposed to be perfecting myself in

661
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 2: all these areas, and that scarcity thing comes up that

662
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 2: you're talking about, And I feel like when we talk

663
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 2: about embodiment, right, I have to live right now from

664
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 2: the inside out, like I can't. The second I like

665
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 2: start worrying about a post, then I'm literally self objectifying.

666
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 2: I'm no longer living in the moment and looking out

667
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 2: at my life. I'm looking out from my life at

668
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 2: myself because I'm looking at this picture, I'm looking at

669
00:37:55,680 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 2: this post or I'm like, I just can't do it

670
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:01,959
Speaker 2: for a while, Like I can't. That's why I can't

671
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 2: be on stage. That's why I'm only doing an interview

672
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:05,320
Speaker 2: with you, because I was like, I'm only going to

673
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 2: do interviews with people who if they came to my house,

674
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:08,800
Speaker 2: I would want to sit with them on my couch

675
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 2: and talk to them for real.

676
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you so much for that.

677
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:14,800
Speaker 2: And it doesn't feel like a thing that I'm doing

678
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 2: like an object out in the world. It feels real,

679
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:17,759
Speaker 2: you know.

680
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 1: And I think they think of objectifying ourselves. It's like

681
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 1: such a It's something I've wrestled with, like wanting to

682
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 1: be body positive and embrace and love my body, but

683
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 1: then like where's the line between that and objectifying myself?

684
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: And there's just something about being a woman in media,

685
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 1: like a host Red Carpets now, where it's that's just

686
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 1: kind of the job. Like it's almost inherently even if

687
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 1: you're like you're this feminist, you know, because I'm an

688
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,760
Speaker 1: intersectional feminist as well, and so it's like I should

689
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:49,879
Speaker 1: be above all this, I should know better. I mean,

690
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 1: the shame of that, that story, that's that shaming story.

691
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 1: But there's something about being in the media as a woman,

692
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 1: no matter what you're doing. You could be running for president,

693
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:01,839
Speaker 1: you could be in Congress, you could be you know what,

694
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 1: a nuclear scientists, and people are going to pick apart

695
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 1: your parents and that is that's cis normative, heteronormative, impeeriless, white, supremacist, capitalist, patriarchy.

696
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 1: We have to name it. It's fat phobia, it's colorism.

697
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 1: It's all these systems that are affecting our lives that

698
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:26,240
Speaker 1: people are imposing on us, and we internalize and impose

699
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,759
Speaker 1: on ourselves, and so there has to be a critical

700
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 1: awareness around that, at least to the extent that it

701
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 1: doesn't drive us crazy. There's so only so many interventions

702
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 1: that I can do with this normative, heteronormative, impeerless, why supremacist, capless, patriarchal,

703
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 1: fat phobic culture. But what can I do with me

704
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 1: so that I'm okay? And I mean I'm working in

705
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 1: that system. I mean I've got my wigs, and I

706
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:53,359
Speaker 1: do my makeup and I do all my glam shit,

707
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 1: and a lot of that is about so much of

708
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 1: that is about survival. So much of that is about

709
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 1: for me as a trans woman, and even before I

710
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 1: was famous, it was about survival and a world, really

711
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 1: hostile world. It's about it's work. I mean, it's cultural currency.

712
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 1: It's work. But there's the other part that loves to

713
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: dress up, and I love fashion, and I'm trying to

714
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 1: like get back to that I did. I'd like this

715
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 1: morning after I was I was prepping and I was like,

716
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 1: I have to say I was triggered and some of

717
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 1: the preps for this podcast, and I was like, girl,

718
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 1: what do you need right now? What is little Lavernie?

719
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,840
Speaker 1: And I've put on some muglayer, I've collected finches muglairer,

720
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 1: and I've played dress up and I danced in the

721
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 1: mirror like I did when I was eight years old.

722
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:37,840
Speaker 1: And so there's that piece of like, yes, there are

723
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,240
Speaker 1: all these systems in place, but there's something that's pure

724
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,840
Speaker 1: where I find joy in the beauty of it and

725
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 1: the art of it. And I can honor that and

726
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 1: understand all these other things are operating, but I can

727
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 1: honor that. Okay, it's that time again. We'll be right back.

728
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 1: We are back. Can you talk a little bit about

729
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 1: like your relationship to being a feminist and the ways

730
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 1: in which you've internalized, if I might say, internalized, these

731
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: ideas about how you're supposed to look and that you're

732
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 1: struggling with this eating disorder that is I think partly

733
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 1: a product of a misogynist, bat phobic, absolutely patriarchal culture.

734
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 2: Well, a couple months after I went into recovery therapy,

735
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 2: I came home from a walk. I go for long

736
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:45,839
Speaker 2: walks by myself every morning. It's my thing. And I said, Abby, down,

737
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 2: I said, I figured out what I'm going to do.

738
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 2: I figured out the answer. And I think I was

739
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 2: feeling a lot of shame for being inter exic. It

740
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:57,320
Speaker 2: was not like super comfortable or cool or a proud

741
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:01,319
Speaker 2: moment to have been the author of unt aimed, of

742
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 2: the feminist whole thing, and then to announce that I

743
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:07,799
Speaker 2: have been inner exic. I felt like such a like

744
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 2: a fraudulent feeling or something. And so I was. I

745
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 2: said to Abby, I am on the beach. I figured

746
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 2: out no more. I'm never having botox again, I'm never

747
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 2: dying my hair again. I'm going to get off social

748
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 2: media completely. And there was something else, some other beauty rule.

749
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 2: I wasn't going to buy any clothes for a year,

750
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,399
Speaker 2: Like this was the answer. Okay, like I had been.

751
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 2: I had been a bad feminist role model. So Abby

752
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 2: just looked at me like okay. So I talked to

753
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 2: my therapist, like two weeks later, I report this to her,

754
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 2: as if she's going to be proud of me right,

755
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 2: because I actually think I've I've figured it out, I've

756
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 2: nailed it. And she says, okay. You know a lot

757
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 2: of times people who don't have an internal locus of

758
00:42:53,160 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 2: control are constantly making outer loci of control m And

759
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 2: I was like, okay, whatever, I'm not even I'm amazing

760
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:05,839
Speaker 2: at not hearing what I don't want to hear and

761
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 2: continuing on. It took my sixteen year old sitting on

762
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 2: my bathroom floor a couple weeks later, and she said, Mom,

763
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:16,279
Speaker 2: do you think it's a good idea, this early in

764
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 2: your recovery to be making all of these rules for yourself?

765
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,720
Speaker 1: Jesus Christ, the children.

766
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:25,439
Speaker 2: This is what I did. I just put my finger

767
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:26,919
Speaker 2: up and said hold on a second, and I picked

768
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:28,760
Speaker 2: up my phone that was on the counter in the bathroom,

769
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 2: and I texted my hairdresser before I even answered my child,

770
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 2: and I was like, I'm coming back in. When's the

771
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 2: soon as you can get me in?

772
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 1: Okay?

773
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,839
Speaker 2: And thank God, Laverne, I had just gotten botox before

774
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 2: I made this role, so I never even had missed

775
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 2: an appointment. But what I want to say to you

776
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:48,799
Speaker 2: about that I love it is that I don't have

777
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 2: an fing clue. I don't know. I'm just but here's

778
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 2: what I'm going to do. I hope I will get

779
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 2: to the point or I think maybe because I'm committed

780
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 2: to learning and I'm committed to being open any volment,

781
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:03,279
Speaker 2: that maybe I will get to a point where I

782
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 2: won't want to get botox and do all these things

783
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 2: because maybe my life will be so full and I'll

784
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:13,319
Speaker 2: be so whatever that I won't even want to. But

785
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 2: I'm not going to make myself do anything until I

786
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 2: actually want it, you know what I mean. I'm not

787
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 2: making rules because that's just like another version of anorexia.

788
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 2: Like it's not it's a fake outside control thing, and

789
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 2: I want whatever this internal locus of control is the

790
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 2: vern this is what I'm going for. I think it's embodiment, right,

791
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,760
Speaker 2: It's what you're talking about. It's checking in, it's honoring

792
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 2: the inner child. It's going back to when we were

793
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:45,240
Speaker 2: a kid. I mean, I think one of the things

794
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 2: that we have in common, which it feels like there's

795
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 2: a lot of things, but as I go back to

796
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 2: my childhood, I'm like, I was hungry. I was hungry

797
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 2: for food, I was hungry for love, I was hungry

798
00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:00,839
Speaker 2: for acceptance. I was queer. I had to get out

799
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 2: of my body because there's all kinds of danger there.

800
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 1: The disassociation is so real for me, and a lot

801
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:12,360
Speaker 1: of people who have struggled with eating disorders, with weight

802
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 1: issues or whatever talk about the difficulty of being in

803
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 1: their bodies, and as a trans woman like I did

804
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 1: not feel in my body for a really long time.

805
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:23,880
Speaker 1: So there's something so powerful about being able to be embody,

806
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:28,760
Speaker 1: to be in your body, and to live present in it.

807
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 1: It's kind of everything that is really the healings in

808
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 1: the podcast. We've run out of time, but I like

809
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:39,399
Speaker 1: to end the podcast with the question what else is true?

810
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:42,319
Speaker 1: And this actually comes from my trauma resilience therapy, the

811
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,759
Speaker 1: idea of both, and specially even though we're struggling, even

812
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 1: though the world is on fire literally right now, something

813
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 1: else is true. There's something that gets me through, There's

814
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 1: something that brings me joy, a resource, one of the

815
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 1: tools of the community resiliency model. So for you today,

816
00:45:56,560 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 1: Glennon Doyle, what else is true? Well?

817
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 2: Today, I guess what's true is that I can show

818
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 2: up for an interview like this and have it feel

819
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 2: real and feel connected and be embodied oh oh, that's

820
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 2: pretty nice and new for me.

821
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 1: A day at a time, A day at a time. Oh,

822
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 1: thank you so much, Thank you so much for being

823
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:35,760
Speaker 1: so open and vulnerable about this. Thank you for protecting yourself.

824
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 1: I think that's so important when you're struggling, and particularly

825
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 1: in you're early in recovery, to like just protect that

826
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:45,799
Speaker 1: and like not put yourself in any situation it's going

827
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:49,880
Speaker 1: to compromise you. So brava, brava. Thank you for joining me.

828
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 1: It's this been really special.

829
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 2: You're just so wonderful and so honest and so real

830
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:58,279
Speaker 2: and so beautiful. Thank you for trusting me with this hour.

831
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:07,439
Speaker 1: I believe what makes us human, what connects all of us,

832
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:12,239
Speaker 1: is that we all struggle. We all struggle with something

833
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:19,360
Speaker 1: and having the courage to reveal what the struggle actually

834
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 1: looks like. When you're trying to heal from and recover

835
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,800
Speaker 1: from an eating disorder or whatever it is you're struggling

836
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:29,239
Speaker 1: with your life, this is what it looks like. It

837
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 1: is messy, it's scary, you don't always know. You take

838
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 1: it a day at a time though, when there's hope,

839
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 1: and what was really beautiful about Glennon today is that

840
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 1: she's like, I have no idea, I have a lot

841
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 1: of questions, but I'm hopeful. Oh it's so beautiful. And

842
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 1: one of the things she says in our podcast is

843
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 1: that we often will hear about the struggle, but we

844
00:47:56,080 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 1: don't really get to witness the messy process, the messy

845
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 1: pieces and parts of what it means to really heal

846
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:11,399
Speaker 1: one's self. And I think the story is, if there's

847
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 1: any conclusion, it's that it's all okay. You know, it's

848
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,959
Speaker 1: okay to be struggling. One of the beautiful things though,

849
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:25,400
Speaker 1: for people who are in recovery, is that relapses are

850
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:29,040
Speaker 1: I learned years ago. When you have a relapse, it

851
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:35,360
Speaker 1: is a wonderful opportunity to grow that relapses are part

852
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 1: of the process. It doesn't mean that you're a failure.

853
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:41,880
Speaker 1: It actually is an opportunity to deepen your recovery, to

854
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:46,760
Speaker 1: deepen your healing. And this is what we're witnessing with Glennon,

855
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 1: and that is actually a beautiful thing. Every now and

856
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,560
Speaker 1: then I fall apart totally clips of the heart, Bondie Tyler,

857
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Speaker 1: we can fall apart and put ourselves back together. And

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Speaker 1: actually the falling apart, the falling apart, actually can be

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Speaker 1: what Glennon implied and actually I think taught us today

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Speaker 1: is that the falling apart is like, that's the shit,

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Speaker 1: that's real, That is the stuff of what it means

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Speaker 1: to be human. So yeah, fall apart, be messy, that's life.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to The Laverne Cox Show. Please rate, review,

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Speaker 1: subscribe and share with everyone you know. You can find

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Speaker 1: me on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok at Laverne Cox and

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Speaker 1: on Facebook at Laverne Cox for reel. Until next time,

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Speaker 1: stay in the love. The Laverne Cox Show is a

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Speaker 1: production of Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more

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Speaker 1: podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.