1
00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,320
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of

2
00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:14,960
Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind.

3
00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:17,960
Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and

4
00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,880
Speaker 1: we're back with part two. In the last episode, we

5
00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:25,400
Speaker 1: talked about the settlement, the original colonization of the Pacific Islands,

6
00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:29,560
Speaker 1: and today we're back to talk about some documentation of

7
00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:35,440
Speaker 1: the amazing navigation techniques used by the master navigators of

8
00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,440
Speaker 1: various Pacific islands. Uh. And I'm really excited to talk

9
00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:42,200
Speaker 1: about this stuff today because I've been reading this big,

10
00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:45,920
Speaker 1: very important book on the subject that was published in

11
00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:48,880
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two by an author named David Lewis called

12
00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:54,600
Speaker 1: We the Navigators that involves extensive interviews with and then

13
00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:58,600
Speaker 1: direct sailing in firsthand observation of the navigation techniques of

14
00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:01,840
Speaker 1: master navigators from the Pacific Islands, for example, a man

15
00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,480
Speaker 1: named Tevak of the Santa Cruz Reef Islands and a

16
00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,959
Speaker 1: man named hip Or of Poula Wat in the Carolines.

17
00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:11,280
Speaker 1: And today we're gonna be talking about some of these

18
00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:15,680
Speaker 1: specific navigation techniques. Yeah. And again these are the techniques

19
00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:21,479
Speaker 1: of environmental navigation, so navigation at sea on the open sea,

20
00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,640
Speaker 1: conducted without instruments. Uh and and so I mean that's

21
00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,120
Speaker 1: ultimately the really amazing part of this. But then at

22
00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:30,119
Speaker 1: the same same time, I want to stress something we've

23
00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:32,440
Speaker 1: mentioned in the first episode that this is also not

24
00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:35,280
Speaker 1: based in sort of a gut instinct, a kind of

25
00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:37,080
Speaker 1: well I've been at sea enough, I kind of know

26
00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:39,920
Speaker 1: what I'm doing. No, this is a this is a science.

27
00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:42,760
Speaker 1: This is this is these are techniques that would have

28
00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,679
Speaker 1: that were passed down from generation to generation, from skilled

29
00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:51,240
Speaker 1: individual to two skilled individual. And uh. And so you know,

30
00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:54,840
Speaker 1: we see this continued on in oral traditions, but then

31
00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:59,760
Speaker 1: also we've seen them recorded, especially in the last few decades.

32
00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,840
Speaker 1: Uh that there's been a resurgence of interest in this

33
00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,120
Speaker 1: uh an effort to to make sure that these traditions

34
00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:11,040
Speaker 1: and techniques survived and then also to use them to

35
00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:16,480
Speaker 1: understand the history of the colonization of these islands by

36
00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,639
Speaker 1: ancient humans. Right. And one of the points that Lewis

37
00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:23,040
Speaker 1: argues in his book is that the colonization of the

38
00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:28,040
Speaker 1: islands of the Pacific was not driven entirely by random drifts, say,

39
00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:30,600
Speaker 1: people getting blown off course by a storm or getting

40
00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:35,160
Speaker 1: lost and then happening upon a new island. That that instead,

41
00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:37,799
Speaker 1: he argues that a lot of these islands were probably

42
00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:42,720
Speaker 1: discovered by deliberate exploratory probes. Right, so let's get into

43
00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:45,480
Speaker 1: some of the techniques. Then. We're going to start with

44
00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:49,280
Speaker 1: what may seem the most obvious, and that is the stars.

45
00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:51,720
Speaker 1: There are a lot of amazing techniques to talk about,

46
00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:54,799
Speaker 1: but this is by far the most important one. Yes,

47
00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:59,639
Speaker 1: so Pacific islanders. Uh, specifically the trained navigators, they did

48
00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,240
Speaker 1: use the stars. The train navigator knew the positions of

49
00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:06,840
Speaker 1: important stars and their relationship to islands by heart. They

50
00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:10,160
Speaker 1: knew how the pattern of the stars changed depending on

51
00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,120
Speaker 1: where you went and what time of the year it was.

52
00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,799
Speaker 1: And they could also use the stars to determine latitude,

53
00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:20,760
Speaker 1: so it's your north south positioning. They could roughly determine

54
00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:24,120
Speaker 1: where they were in relation to the equator based on

55
00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:28,040
Speaker 1: the height of Polaris or the southern cross above the horizon,

56
00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,880
Speaker 1: which they would measure, again not using instruments, but using

57
00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:36,160
Speaker 1: the human hand. Yes, or sometimes I think also maybe uh,

58
00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:39,920
Speaker 1: parts of the boat could be used to sort of

59
00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:43,520
Speaker 1: orient with the stars on the horizon. Right, So, if

60
00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,400
Speaker 1: you're unfamiliar with this, kind of technique. As obviously most

61
00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:50,120
Speaker 1: of us are as I am, the mind is immediately boggled, right,

62
00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:52,880
Speaker 1: you think, Okay, how would I use the stars to

63
00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,480
Speaker 1: find I don't know a city or something like that. Uh,

64
00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,160
Speaker 1: you don't. You wouldn't even know where to start. But

65
00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:01,480
Speaker 1: once you know to look for, this actually becomes an

66
00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:07,080
Speaker 1: extremely reliable method. Uh. And specifically, the really important guide

67
00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:11,080
Speaker 1: stars here are constellations that are low in the sky

68
00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,960
Speaker 1: around the point where they are either rising or setting,

69
00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:18,919
Speaker 1: and can be easily associated with a particular heading toward

70
00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,080
Speaker 1: the horizon. So you're steering your boat and you're observing

71
00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:24,880
Speaker 1: the stars right around the horizon. So these would be

72
00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:29,800
Speaker 1: either stars and star constellations that have recently risen or

73
00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:33,200
Speaker 1: are about to set, depending on which direction east west

74
00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,919
Speaker 1: you're heading. So if you have a particular destination in

75
00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:41,839
Speaker 1: mind and you know you're starting position, you can associate

76
00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:46,159
Speaker 1: your destination with a particular guide star. Or what a

77
00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,360
Speaker 1: guide star would actually mean is a series of stars

78
00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:53,800
Speaker 1: and star constellations that will move move vertically up and

79
00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,760
Speaker 1: down across the sky as the night goes on. But

80
00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:59,520
Speaker 1: they might be identified by say the first star. You

81
00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,520
Speaker 1: would see the sequences as the guide star, and then

82
00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:04,839
Speaker 1: the train of subsequent stars that would move up and

83
00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,880
Speaker 1: down as the night goes on. But that is associated

84
00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:11,720
Speaker 1: with a particular island. Now, of course, it gets much

85
00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:14,520
Speaker 1: more complicated than that, because, for one thing, you have

86
00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:19,320
Speaker 1: to take into account position and geography, because while a

87
00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,279
Speaker 1: star can help give you a heading toward a known

88
00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:27,560
Speaker 1: island that's associated with it would only necessarily be associated

89
00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:31,200
Speaker 1: with the island you're heading for from a particular direction. Right,

90
00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,480
Speaker 1: So if you're heading from east to west, the island

91
00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,000
Speaker 1: you're looking for is under a certain star, but if

92
00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,400
Speaker 1: you're heading from north to the same island, that island

93
00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,880
Speaker 1: would be under a different star. Right. So the stars

94
00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,320
Speaker 1: help you get an orientation, but you have to know

95
00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:51,040
Speaker 1: the relationships between a sort of mental map of islands

96
00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,320
Speaker 1: in your head and how shifting the starting point of

97
00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,400
Speaker 1: the journey will shift what star path will lead you

98
00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,960
Speaker 1: to your island destination. But it gets even more complicated

99
00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,159
Speaker 1: than that because, of course, as we mentioned, the stars

100
00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:07,280
Speaker 1: don't stay still throughout the night. The earth is rotating,

101
00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,960
Speaker 1: so the fixed stars rise and set across the sky

102
00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:13,800
Speaker 1: over the course of a night, and as the stars

103
00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:17,200
Speaker 1: rise higher or set below the horizon, they become less

104
00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,400
Speaker 1: useful or not useful at all for navigating without equipment

105
00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:23,280
Speaker 1: and charts, not just because say, they're higher as they're

106
00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:25,960
Speaker 1: rising up, but also because they tend to rise at

107
00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,360
Speaker 1: an angle, so they won't stay right where they're supposed

108
00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,000
Speaker 1: to be on the horizon. What you want is a

109
00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,760
Speaker 1: reference star that is either just rising if you're heading east,

110
00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:38,920
Speaker 1: or is just about to set if you're heading west. Um,

111
00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,200
Speaker 1: So what do you do there? Well, what you would

112
00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:45,120
Speaker 1: tend to do is cycle through new sets of rising

113
00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,919
Speaker 1: or falling guide stars that you know will keep you

114
00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,520
Speaker 1: pointed in the right direction. And Lewis writes about this

115
00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,440
Speaker 1: that on average, you won't need more than about ten

116
00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,680
Speaker 1: guide stars to sail through an entire night, given the

117
00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:00,680
Speaker 1: amount of time that each star is usually pretty close

118
00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,200
Speaker 1: to the horizon, close enough to be usable. So you

119
00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,320
Speaker 1: can almost imagine kind of a I don't know, like

120
00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:07,720
Speaker 1: those like stock ticker strips, you know, the old one

121
00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,560
Speaker 1: is like a strip of stars that are peeling up

122
00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,720
Speaker 1: over the horizon all night long, and each one, you know,

123
00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:15,880
Speaker 1: is the next one in the set that is still

124
00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,600
Speaker 1: oriented with the top star in that strip that will

125
00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:21,360
Speaker 1: keep you going in the direction you need to go,

126
00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:25,680
Speaker 1: But stop and think about, like how much memorization this requires,

127
00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:28,760
Speaker 1: Like how much you need to know about what the

128
00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:32,760
Speaker 1: stars look like, what their orientations are, and their relationships

129
00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,000
Speaker 1: to the islands you need to get to, depending on

130
00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,280
Speaker 1: where you're starting point. Is So the amount of navigational

131
00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:41,120
Speaker 1: lore that needs to be committed to memory and the

132
00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:45,080
Speaker 1: amount of detail in it is is absolutely astounding. I mean,

133
00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:47,240
Speaker 1: it reminds me a little. These are not directly comparable

134
00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:48,840
Speaker 1: at all, but it reminds me a little of how

135
00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,040
Speaker 1: in or is it Mark Twain's life on the Mississippi

136
00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:55,760
Speaker 1: talking about how an experienced riverboat pilot would need to

137
00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:58,720
Speaker 1: know by heart the entire river, like all the various

138
00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,040
Speaker 1: details of its it's twist and bends, its depth, et cetera,

139
00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:06,160
Speaker 1: and everything that went into knowing it. Which, um, yeah,

140
00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:08,880
Speaker 1: from what I've read, you can you can basically take

141
00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,920
Speaker 1: that and apply it to to any kind of nautical setting,

142
00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,720
Speaker 1: and certainly this one is well. Like you would need

143
00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:18,920
Speaker 1: to to know by heart the environment through which you

144
00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,480
Speaker 1: would be uh sailing, the environment of the waters, but

145
00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:25,360
Speaker 1: also the environment of the stars above. Yeah, And it

146
00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:29,440
Speaker 1: seems that while I don't know, while the mental memorization

147
00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:33,080
Speaker 1: of physical surroundings on land, including like trees and changes

148
00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:35,720
Speaker 1: in terrain and rocks and landmarks and stuff like that.

149
00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,400
Speaker 1: It maybe this is just my land lubb or bias,

150
00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,640
Speaker 1: but it seems like that kind of thing probably comes

151
00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,000
Speaker 1: more intuitively. It's more just sort of like a biological

152
00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:48,760
Speaker 1: default to recognize landmarks like plants and rocks and stuff

153
00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:52,760
Speaker 1: like that. Then it would be to memorize the stars

154
00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:56,679
Speaker 1: as your landmarks for guidance. Yeah, yeah, I think you're right.

155
00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:01,400
Speaker 1: I mean, it almost feels like sailing through the space. Uh.

156
00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:03,320
Speaker 1: Though of course there's going to be plenty concerning the

157
00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,840
Speaker 1: water itself and the and uh and other environmental cues

158
00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:08,800
Speaker 1: that will get to But but certainly at this point

159
00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,280
Speaker 1: in the in the podcast, it's easy to to almost

160
00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:15,160
Speaker 1: think of these as space voyages because of the degree

161
00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:19,280
Speaker 1: of focus that must be placed on the stars, right,

162
00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:23,200
Speaker 1: and so experienced specific navigators can use these rising and

163
00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:27,120
Speaker 1: setting guide stars to form this extremely accurate mental compass.

164
00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,560
Speaker 1: Lewis gives one example of one of his voyages with

165
00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:35,000
Speaker 1: the navigator TVAK, and he says, quote, by these obliquely

166
00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:37,679
Speaker 1: sinking stars, he was able to inform me that during

167
00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:41,520
Speaker 1: the evening that the wind had backed from southeast to

168
00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:45,960
Speaker 1: south southeast. I seriously doubted the accuracy of his observation

169
00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:49,640
Speaker 1: until Canopus, topping the horizon on a bearing of a

170
00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:52,840
Speaker 1: hundred and forty three degrees exactly in line with our stern,

171
00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,000
Speaker 1: confirmed that we were in fact dead on course and

172
00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:59,840
Speaker 1: that the wind had changed. Now, there's another variation on

173
00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,240
Speaker 1: idea of guide stars for navigation that is known as

174
00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:07,880
Speaker 1: the sidereal compass. That is basically like a a view

175
00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:11,920
Speaker 1: of the night sky that identifies particular rising or setting

176
00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:15,920
Speaker 1: stars with points on an imagined compass. Again, this is

177
00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:19,040
Speaker 1: not a piece of equipment, an external tool. This is

178
00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:21,800
Speaker 1: a compass in the brain that has a picture a

179
00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,480
Speaker 1: mental map of the stars and how the stars along

180
00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:29,440
Speaker 1: the horizon will give you information about north, southeast, and west. Now,

181
00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,600
Speaker 1: these are the basic primary methods of navigation by stars,

182
00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:36,079
Speaker 1: but obviously in practice it's a lot more complicated, So

183
00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:38,880
Speaker 1: a few examples. Of course, there is a lot of

184
00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:43,679
Speaker 1: adjusting the course to compensate for variations and currents and winds,

185
00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:48,040
Speaker 1: and to be adaptable for for celestial orientation markers. When

186
00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,800
Speaker 1: part of the sky is obscured, for example by clouds,

187
00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,040
Speaker 1: and I'll mention more about that in a minute. There's

188
00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,720
Speaker 1: another thing that's a complication with the use of guide

189
00:10:55,720 --> 00:11:01,000
Speaker 1: stars for navigation, which is the seasonality of guide stars. Uh. Now,

190
00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:05,559
Speaker 1: of course, the availability of guide stars varies with the seasons,

191
00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:10,000
Speaker 1: because the sidereal day is actually twenty three hours and

192
00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:14,080
Speaker 1: fifty six minutes long, not twenty four hours. So each

193
00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:18,760
Speaker 1: star rises and sets four minutes earlier each night. And

194
00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,240
Speaker 1: as you can imagine, as this builds up over time,

195
00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:25,319
Speaker 1: you're actually going to be having different star maps available

196
00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:29,040
Speaker 1: to you as the year goes on. So in illustrating this,

197
00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:32,800
Speaker 1: Lewis writes that quote Tevak told me that the sailing

198
00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,360
Speaker 1: season in the Santa Cruz group lasted all year round,

199
00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,600
Speaker 1: and that there were appropriate steering stars for each time

200
00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:44,040
Speaker 1: of year. Similarly, when two two indicated the stars for

201
00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:48,440
Speaker 1: the Nomuka Tonga Tapoo passage, he stressed that the ones

202
00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:51,800
Speaker 1: he was showing me were usable only up to about September,

203
00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:56,000
Speaker 1: after which new stars and sailing directions had to be used.

204
00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:58,640
Speaker 1: So not only do you have to understand this whole

205
00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,160
Speaker 1: star map and its relations and ship to the island geography,

206
00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,439
Speaker 1: but also if you if you're sailing across different seasons,

207
00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:08,400
Speaker 1: you have to have the seasonal backups in mind as well.

208
00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:11,600
Speaker 1: Then there's even more to to take into account. One thing,

209
00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:15,800
Speaker 1: for example, is wind and leeway, So experience navigators will

210
00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:19,360
Speaker 1: have a mental map to reach their destination that must

211
00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:23,520
Speaker 1: include compensation for leeway. You know, the sideward drift of

212
00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,040
Speaker 1: a boat as it is is blown sort of off

213
00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:29,680
Speaker 1: course by wind. So if the navigator knows that the

214
00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:33,400
Speaker 1: destination is under a particular star, but there is a

215
00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:37,080
Speaker 1: known and relatively dependable amount of southerly drift on the

216
00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:40,120
Speaker 1: journey due to prevailing winds and currents, they actually have

217
00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,680
Speaker 1: to aim a certain amount north of the guide star.

218
00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,439
Speaker 1: That makes sense, Yeah, and that's just for permanent drifts.

219
00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,679
Speaker 1: There's also sort of more ad hoc compensation that has

220
00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:52,920
Speaker 1: to take place along the way as well. But one

221
00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:55,640
Speaker 1: of the big things that that really struck me about

222
00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,160
Speaker 1: this was how how much it inverts the logic of

223
00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:03,440
Speaker 1: nighttime now vigation versus daytime navigation. You know, uh, well, like,

224
00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:05,640
Speaker 1: how how would you think, what do you think would

225
00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,079
Speaker 1: be the best time to try to get somewhere. Obviously

226
00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:09,880
Speaker 1: you would probably think it's in the day, right when

227
00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,320
Speaker 1: you can see where you need to go. But it

228
00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:16,520
Speaker 1: is much easier to use the highly dependable celestial navigation

229
00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:21,080
Speaker 1: techniques of of the Pacific Islander navigation lore at night

230
00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:23,720
Speaker 1: than it is in the daytime. There there's still tools

231
00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:25,520
Speaker 1: they use in the daytime, and I'll talk about those

232
00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:28,280
Speaker 1: in a minute. Um. But even when the stars are

233
00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:32,640
Speaker 1: largely obscured by clouds, an experience navigator can usually use

234
00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,560
Speaker 1: some stars in the sky to orient and to get

235
00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,920
Speaker 1: onto the correct bearing, for example, by noting which stars

236
00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,640
Speaker 1: might lie it's a nine d degrees to the course, etcetera. Yeah,

237
00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:45,800
Speaker 1: I mean it almost sounds like you would you would

238
00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:50,360
Speaker 1: probably want to leave the shore, you know, around dusk,

239
00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:55,240
Speaker 1: um and uh, and then once and then hopefully you're

240
00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:57,440
Speaker 1: you're out to see by the time the stars have

241
00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:00,679
Speaker 1: come out. Right. Well, there's actually there's a good bit

242
00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,720
Speaker 1: of thought about when are the best times to arrive

243
00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:07,200
Speaker 1: and depart. So they talked about, Yeah, I think it's

244
00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,280
Speaker 1: usually customary to leave during the daytime. And one of

245
00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,000
Speaker 1: the main reasons it's important to leave during the daytime

246
00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,080
Speaker 1: is uh, not only that people can be notified and

247
00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:18,719
Speaker 1: you can say prepare things to take along with you.

248
00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:21,440
Speaker 1: That same day like fresh food, and you can say

249
00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:25,080
Speaker 1: your farewells to people during the daytime, but you can

250
00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,360
Speaker 1: also look back at the island you're leaving from to

251
00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,840
Speaker 1: get back bearings, right, So you can make use of

252
00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,840
Speaker 1: of the land for your navigation for as long as

253
00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:38,840
Speaker 1: it's feasible. Right. And it's also usually considered important to

254
00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,520
Speaker 1: arrive at your destination during the daytime because one of

255
00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:48,520
Speaker 1: the great perils actually of Pacific navigation is accidentally missing

256
00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:52,200
Speaker 1: your target in the dark. If you sail past the

257
00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:54,680
Speaker 1: island in the dark and you don't realize you've done it,

258
00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,360
Speaker 1: that can be uh that that could be a death sentence.

259
00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,040
Speaker 1: So it's kind of interesting while you're out on the

260
00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,120
Speaker 1: open ocean, navigating at night is ideal. That's you know,

261
00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:07,160
Speaker 1: where you get these accurate guide stars. But I think

262
00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:09,960
Speaker 1: it's often considered good to leave the island during the

263
00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:13,240
Speaker 1: daytime and to arrive at your destination during the daytime

264
00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:16,080
Speaker 1: and sometimes uh and there might be some exceptions to that,

265
00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,760
Speaker 1: but those seemed to be some general principles that were

266
00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,600
Speaker 1: observed at least that Lewis mentioned and uh and so

267
00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,640
Speaker 1: that would require very careful timing of the journey, right,

268
00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:27,760
Speaker 1: Like you need to know pretty much exactly how long

269
00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:30,200
Speaker 1: it's going to take, how many days, so that you

270
00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:32,480
Speaker 1: can time it out like that. And just as one

271
00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:36,280
Speaker 1: example about the dangers of missing an island at night,

272
00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,640
Speaker 1: uh Lewis talks about at least one of the navigators

273
00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,680
Speaker 1: he worked with having a practice of when you're getting

274
00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:46,040
Speaker 1: close to the island and it's really dark out, sometimes

275
00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:48,800
Speaker 1: they would just stop sailing. They would slow down. They

276
00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,640
Speaker 1: would uh it's called heaving to, you know, they would

277
00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,320
Speaker 1: heave to to slow the progress of the boat, just

278
00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,520
Speaker 1: to be super careful that they didn't accidentally, say, sail

279
00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,360
Speaker 1: between two islands unnoticed in the middle of the night.

280
00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,720
Speaker 1: But while the nighttime star navigation is the most accurate

281
00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:07,240
Speaker 1: thing to use, there are clues you can use for

282
00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,320
Speaker 1: navigation in the daytime as well. For example, you can

283
00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,840
Speaker 1: use the sun. It's more difficult to use the sun,

284
00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,080
Speaker 1: but it can be done. Uh. And it's more difficult

285
00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:18,040
Speaker 1: for a number of reasons. First of all, there's only

286
00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:21,040
Speaker 1: one of it, and its position can vary a lot

287
00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:25,120
Speaker 1: over the seasons. Right. Unlike the stars, the relative position

288
00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,480
Speaker 1: of the Sun on the horizon of Earth has a

289
00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,600
Speaker 1: lot more variability. But even with the seasonal variability of

290
00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,240
Speaker 1: the sun's position, you can still use it to navigate

291
00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:37,880
Speaker 1: by pairing it with external reference to the stars. And

292
00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:40,480
Speaker 1: this was one of the many moments in this book.

293
00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,320
Speaker 1: It gave me that like, oh, of course kind of feeling,

294
00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,040
Speaker 1: and this was one of them. So uh So, Lewis

295
00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:48,800
Speaker 1: writes at one point about another scholar who had been

296
00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,480
Speaker 1: writing about Pacific navigation uh named Aker Blom. He says,

297
00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:56,600
Speaker 1: quote Aker Blom surprisingly asserts that to achieve a satisfactory

298
00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,120
Speaker 1: degree of accuracy when checking the course by means of

299
00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,320
Speaker 1: the bearing of the rising or setting sun, the Polynesian

300
00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:06,080
Speaker 1: navigator must necessarily have had access to some form of

301
00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,480
Speaker 1: memorized table of the changes in the sun's asimuth. So

302
00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,240
Speaker 1: it's you know, changes in rising and setting patterns over

303
00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:16,000
Speaker 1: the seasons. But contrary to that, Lewis says, all the

304
00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:18,879
Speaker 1: navigator actually needs, of course, are his eyes and a

305
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,520
Speaker 1: knowledge of the stars. The sun star comparison could be

306
00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,080
Speaker 1: made twice in each day if one were so minded.

307
00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,160
Speaker 1: So when the sun is rising or setting, you can

308
00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:31,480
Speaker 1: check its orientation with respect to the stars that appear,

309
00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:33,760
Speaker 1: you know, before or after it, and then you can

310
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,560
Speaker 1: basically know where on the horizon it is rising or

311
00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:45,960
Speaker 1: setting at this time of year. Wow. Yeah, thank Now

312
00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,560
Speaker 1: there are other methods of maintaining course setting during the

313
00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,800
Speaker 1: daytime that are again more difficult than the nighttime, but

314
00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:54,520
Speaker 1: still possible. And another method that I thought was really

315
00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:59,959
Speaker 1: interesting was steering by ocean swells. And they're actually two

316
00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,840
Speaker 1: different uses here. Um, So there's one thing, which is

317
00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,360
Speaker 1: navigation by swells in the open water. So if you're

318
00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:09,719
Speaker 1: out you know, no side of land anywhere nearby, you

319
00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:13,360
Speaker 1: can use ocean swells to help you do direction finding,

320
00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:15,879
Speaker 1: just like you would use the sun or the stars.

321
00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,600
Speaker 1: But in addition to that, using the swells is actually

322
00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,879
Speaker 1: a land finding technique. It changes in how the ocean

323
00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,920
Speaker 1: swells are affected by nearby land masses can be used

324
00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,320
Speaker 1: to locate islands that are nearby, and this is something

325
00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:30,560
Speaker 1: we'll probably talk about more in the next part of

326
00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,639
Speaker 1: this of this series. But what does it mean to

327
00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:38,200
Speaker 1: steer by swells in the daytime? Well, swells are permanent

328
00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:42,960
Speaker 1: wave patterns with specific cardinal origin points, which are associated

329
00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,439
Speaker 1: not with waves kicked up by transient weather, but with

330
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:52,080
Speaker 1: strong and persistent wind patterns associated with specific permanent weather systems.

331
00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:56,200
Speaker 1: For example, the trade winds or what or what a

332
00:18:56,280 --> 00:19:00,560
Speaker 1: Louis calls the southern Ocean belt of strong westerly's. Yeah,

333
00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,000
Speaker 1: and I think we can sort of loosely imagine like

334
00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:07,439
Speaker 1: a recreation of a basic form of this, you know,

335
00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:09,840
Speaker 1: in some sort of a model or simulation, if you

336
00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,080
Speaker 1: had a body of water and you had to say

337
00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:15,840
Speaker 1: a fan or something creating some sort of you know,

338
00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,560
Speaker 1: of disturbance across the surface, and it it was regular,

339
00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,040
Speaker 1: what would happen if you then dropped some islands in there?

340
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,879
Speaker 1: It could disrupt the waves, especially in if we were

341
00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,359
Speaker 1: talking in in the actual ocean, in the form of

342
00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:33,840
Speaker 1: long ocean waves as they bend around land masses. And

343
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,880
Speaker 1: and this wave disruption can be identified by a skilled eye,

344
00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:40,879
Speaker 1: enabling them to detect land hundreds of kilometers wave, and

345
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,560
Speaker 1: which is is pretty amazing, right, And so that's the

346
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:46,720
Speaker 1: kind that would be used specifically for the land finding, right.

347
00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:49,879
Speaker 1: But you can also use the ce swells like you

348
00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,280
Speaker 1: would use the stars to get directional orientation to know

349
00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,440
Speaker 1: which direction is north, southeast or west without a compass,

350
00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,919
Speaker 1: Because if you know basically what direction c swell that

351
00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:05,199
Speaker 1: is permanent and reliable comes from, you can detect that

352
00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:10,200
Speaker 1: swell and then no, okay, that way is south southeast. Right.

353
00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:12,560
Speaker 1: So so now we have not only the stars above,

354
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:17,440
Speaker 1: but also uh, the wave patterns the c swells as well. Right,

355
00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,760
Speaker 1: So these permanent weather patterns, they originate in a fairly

356
00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,840
Speaker 1: consistent direction from your location. Now, part of the ignorant

357
00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,679
Speaker 1: land dweller in me is just incredulous here, right, Like

358
00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:29,720
Speaker 1: when I'm out in a boat on the ocean, waves

359
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,720
Speaker 1: seem utterly random to me. I could not I could

360
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,920
Speaker 1: not identify that waves are coming from a particular direction.

361
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:38,560
Speaker 1: And you know, but they're not well, unless it's coming

362
00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,080
Speaker 1: from a ski do right, then you are motor boat

363
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,920
Speaker 1: that's coming by then it's pretty clear what's creating the distraction.

364
00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,720
Speaker 1: That's a good point. But you know, just the general

365
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,880
Speaker 1: choppy wave patterns of the ocean, I wouldn't have any

366
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,199
Speaker 1: idea what to do. But if you are trained in

367
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:56,520
Speaker 1: knowing what to look for, you actually can identify particular

368
00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:01,120
Speaker 1: wave patterns or swell patterns. Lou actually makes a distinction

369
00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,600
Speaker 1: between waves and swells. Um. But but they're not just random.

370
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:08,960
Speaker 1: The system of orientation based on swells is not as

371
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,760
Speaker 1: reliable as the stars, but it's still pretty reliable, so

372
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,960
Speaker 1: the question would be, well, how do you detect them?

373
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,360
Speaker 1: One interesting fact is that the navigators Lewis learned from

374
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:23,199
Speaker 1: seemed to consult the swells based on feeling them in

375
00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:27,480
Speaker 1: the body more so than looking at them, which means

376
00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:29,879
Speaker 1: that they can be used to steer not only in

377
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:33,720
Speaker 1: the daytime, but on overcast nights. So when the stars

378
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:37,520
Speaker 1: are completely hidden, that's your main orientation tool gone and

379
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:41,240
Speaker 1: there's no light to see, you could still potentially feel

380
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:46,600
Speaker 1: the directional swells and get an orientation based on that. Wow.

381
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,320
Speaker 1: If that's interesting and it makes perfect sense. So how

382
00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:52,200
Speaker 1: do you feel swells? Well, there's a part in Lewis's

383
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,800
Speaker 1: book where he talks about this. He says, quote Tek

384
00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,600
Speaker 1: told me he would sometimes retire to the hut on

385
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,080
Speaker 1: his canoes out rigger platform, where you could lie down

386
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,840
Speaker 1: and without distraction, more readily direct the helmsman onto the

387
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,600
Speaker 1: proper course by analyzing the roll and pitch of the

388
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:13,640
Speaker 1: vessel as it cork screwed over the waves. In distinguishing swells,

389
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,920
Speaker 1: he stressed, you have to wait patiently until the one

390
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,720
Speaker 1: you want has a spell of being prominent and discernible.

391
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:22,959
Speaker 1: So there is a lot of noise in the waves, right,

392
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,720
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of conflicting, you know, wave wave

393
00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:29,880
Speaker 1: action coming in different directions, but there's a certain pattern

394
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:34,200
Speaker 1: you can recognize from a known swell, And once there's

395
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,440
Speaker 1: a there's the right kind of timing in the wave

396
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,200
Speaker 1: action for you to identify the pattern of that known

397
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,959
Speaker 1: directional swell. You can orient based on that. And this

398
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 1: would be again done by feeling it in the body

399
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,280
Speaker 1: and feeling the direction of the rolling of the boat.

400
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:51,720
Speaker 1: So when you think about how a boat moves in

401
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,920
Speaker 1: the waves, it can pitch, it can move up and down,

402
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,199
Speaker 1: forward to back, and it can roll from side to side,

403
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,720
Speaker 1: and the interaction of pitch and roll will tell you

404
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 1: something about the direction that the swell is coming from.

405
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,960
Speaker 1: Right now, in saying that this type of navigation method

406
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:11,800
Speaker 1: is more reliable than it sounds, I also don't want

407
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:15,879
Speaker 1: to overstate or understate the difficulty of detecting it right

408
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,399
Speaker 1: that there there is a lot of noisy wave of

409
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:20,960
Speaker 1: action going on in the ocean, so somebody has to

410
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:24,199
Speaker 1: be really experienced and know what it is they're feeling

411
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 1: for in order to feel it. And I just want

412
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,639
Speaker 1: to read one section of Lewis talking about attempting to

413
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 1: understand what's going on with the navigation based on swells.

414
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 1: Uh he writes, quote the course toward Tomaco was east northeast,

415
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 1: directly into the cea swell that came from the same

416
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,920
Speaker 1: direction that it was only present or at any rate

417
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,760
Speaker 1: detectable occasionally at such times it could be picked out

418
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,880
Speaker 1: by I, and as the ship rode up and over it,

419
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,760
Speaker 1: meaning pitched without any role at all, except when the

420
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 1: steep northerly wind wave happened to coincide when the boat

421
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 1: the SPOR was rolled to starboard at the same moment

422
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 1: as she was pitching over the head on C swell.

423
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,920
Speaker 1: In those long intervals where the C swell was absent,

424
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 1: the wind wave rolled us to starboard about once every

425
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,200
Speaker 1: five seconds without there being any pitching component. I could

426
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 1: feel little effect from the southeast or northwest swells. After nightfall,

427
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 1: we steered by the stars, the swells remaining unchanged except

428
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:28,200
Speaker 1: that the wind wave declined. So that's about like trying

429
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,120
Speaker 1: to understand that they're different. In fact, there are multiple

430
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,879
Speaker 1: swells at any given time, probably hitting you from different directions,

431
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 1: and so the experience navigator is looking for a particular

432
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 1: type of swell. You know that you could actually make

433
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:46,919
Speaker 1: the same journey potentially and look for different swells to

434
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,399
Speaker 1: steer you in aid of it. You just have to

435
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,120
Speaker 1: know which ones you're feeling for. And that goes back

436
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,119
Speaker 1: to the example you mentioned earlier about just like like

437
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 1: setting there or laying there on the boat and just

438
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 1: waiting to to feel the one you're looking for. It's

439
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 1: not just Okay, the waves are hitting me, I got

440
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 1: the pattern. No, you're looking for the specific pattern amid

441
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 1: the noise or amid the waves right when there may

442
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,680
Speaker 1: be multiple patterns coming at you at the same time.

443
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:14,880
Speaker 1: You're just trying to pick the right one out, get

444
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 1: the timing right to understand, yes, this is it. But

445
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 1: as you were talking about earlier, I think it's important

446
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 1: to remember and again we'll we'll get more into this

447
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 1: in the next episode. The ability to detect and measure

448
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 1: swells and their direction of origin is not useful just

449
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 1: in steering on the open ocean, but it's also one

450
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:34,439
Speaker 1: of the techniques for understanding wind land is near. Now,

451
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 1: there are a couple of other things that are really

452
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,640
Speaker 1: interesting about navigating on the open ocean. There's one more

453
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 1: orientation technique that is even less reliable than the others,

454
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 1: but it is sometimes still used as a backup. That's

455
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 1: known as the wind compass, So it's it's basically operating

456
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 1: on the presence of known wind patterns to give you

457
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:58,160
Speaker 1: indications about about directionality. So you might, for example, use

458
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 1: the aid of a tool here in external tool like

459
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 1: a pennant, the you know, kind of flag object that

460
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 1: would allow you to determine patterns of winds and where

461
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 1: they come from. And if you know that there are

462
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: certain dominant patterns of winds, you can kind of use

463
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 1: that to give you another data point in orienting your

464
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 1: boat in the right direction. Now there's a whole other

465
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 1: world of ad hoc adjustment that needs to take place

466
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,719
Speaker 1: on top of everything we've already been talking about. You know,

467
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 1: basically everything we've been talking about is getting the correct bearing,

468
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 1: knowing you're going in the right direction towards your target

469
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 1: island based on your starting point. But of course, in sailing,

470
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 1: you can't always just sail in a straight line. Right

471
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 1: Winds and ocean currents will gradually shift you off course,

472
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 1: and you have to understand how that's happening and compensate

473
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 1: for it, which again this is one of those things

474
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,439
Speaker 1: where I just like react to that thinking like it

475
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 1: seems impossible, how could you do it? But but they

476
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,919
Speaker 1: have methods that they can do it. And there are

477
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 1: a lot of methods here at For example, one that

478
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 1: I really liked. Lewis discusses on the first stage of

479
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 1: one journey with hip Hoor, departing from pula wat hip

480
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 1: or would keep track of back bearings on the island

481
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,919
Speaker 1: that they were leaving to see how the current was

482
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,919
Speaker 1: affecting their heading. So you have the reference point of

483
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,439
Speaker 1: the island, landmarks the island you're leaving, and then you

484
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 1: can see from your heading as you're leaving the island

485
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 1: how strong the current is at the moment. And then,

486
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 1: to to read from Louis here quote if said hip

487
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 1: Hoor it turned out, on further observation to be weak,

488
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 1: we would head towards the point where vegas set, which

489
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 1: is about at three hundred and nine degrees. If strong,

490
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 1: as proved to be the case, towards the setting point

491
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 1: of the plea d s at about two hundred and

492
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: eighty five degrees. Thus there were at least two distinct

493
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 1: star courses traditionally laid down for this passage, and probably

494
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 1: four to allow for strong and weak south flowing currents.

495
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 1: This was a north flowing aren't So not only do

496
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:05,239
Speaker 1: you need to know the right headings for for the

497
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 1: island you need to get to under you know, basically

498
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 1: like neutral conditions, you also have to know what headings

499
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,440
Speaker 1: you would use if the current is a certain strength

500
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 1: in a certain direction and the corresponding guide stars. Of course, um,

501
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 1: but so if the wind or current is moving you

502
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,919
Speaker 1: laterally off course while steering in the open ocean, and

503
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 1: so you don't have like, you know, back bearings like

504
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 1: an island to refer to, how would you even know it?

505
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:33,880
Speaker 1: How do you know how far off course you're getting

506
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 1: blown by the wind. This was another moment where the

507
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: technique was revealed and I was like, oh, of course,

508
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 1: I thought this method was ingenious. Some of the navigators

509
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 1: here would look at the wake left behind by the boat.

510
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: So if if leeway I mean you know, wind, the

511
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 1: blowing the boat sideways in addition to forward, if leeway

512
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 1: is affecting your course, one way to judge this is

513
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 1: by looking at the degree of the angle between the

514
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: straight line you're attempting to steer on. So you can

515
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 1: imagine a straight line going from the stern to the

516
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 1: bow of the boat, you know, and just going off

517
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 1: towards the horizon in every direction. Look at the angle

518
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 1: between that line and the trail of wake left behind you.

519
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 1: This might be kind of hard to visualize without a

520
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 1: without a picture, so I'm sorry, but Rob, I've got

521
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 1: a picture for you to look at. Here you can

522
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: see that there's actually an angle of difference in between

523
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: the wake behind the boat as you're getting blown off

524
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 1: course and the straight line that you are attempting to

525
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: steer on. Yeah, you can imagine it is looking back

526
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 1: and saying, not a straight wake behind you, going back

527
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 1: to you know, to just directly behind you, as if

528
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 1: it is a line drawn from the rear of the vessel,

529
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 1: but something that is diagonal because because of the way

530
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 1: the wind is blowing the vessel from the side right.

531
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 1: So by seeing that angle and how large it is,

532
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 1: a master navigator is able to correct for the amount

533
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 1: of leeway that they're being blown off course. Thank thank you. Now,

534
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 1: there's a huge thing that we haven't gotten into in

535
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 1: detail yet here, but a big section of Lewis's book

536
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: is about the Pacific navigation forms of dead reckoning and

537
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 1: dead reckoning is estimating the position of your boat without

538
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 1: reference to any new markers around you, but rather by

539
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: knowing your past position and estimating how far you have

540
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 1: traveled from there and in what direction. So this is

541
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: crucial to keeping track of your journey. But this is

542
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 1: a different thing because it's not giving you new information

543
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 1: from your surroundings. It's rather a sort of keeping track

544
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: of your position on a mental map by just using

545
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 1: the information already in your possession. And one mental tool

546
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: that seems to help with this process and Pacific navigation

547
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: has been referred to as attack. Again, this is not

548
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 1: a means of acquire ring new information from the environment,

549
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 1: but rather a visualization or a mental reference system for

550
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: understanding one's place in relation to other things. Unfortunately, this

551
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 1: is yet another concept that is kind of hard to

552
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: explain without visual aids. But Rob, I've got a visual

553
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: aid for you to look at here, and I will

554
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 1: do my best to try to explain it. Basically, it

555
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: hinges on having this mastery of relationships between stars, vantage points,

556
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 1: and various geographical locations, specifically islands on in the nearby surroundings.

557
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 1: So it's a point of analogy imagine that you want

558
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 1: to travel between New York and Chicago by stars. One

559
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 1: way that I can help understand where I am along

560
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 1: my journey is if I have a third reference point

561
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 1: in mind. So let's say Atlanta. So I know that

562
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: I start in New York, and when I start in

563
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 1: New York, I know from where I am, Atlanta is

564
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 1: going to be under Star A. From my point of views.

565
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 1: If I wanted to travel to Atlanta, I would take

566
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: my beer, I would head towards Star A on the horizon.

567
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 1: But by the time I reached Chicago, now, because I'm

568
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 1: at a different vantage point, Atlanta is underneath Star C

569
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,239
Speaker 1: from my point of view. And there's a midpoint in

570
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 1: between Chicago and New York where Atlanta from my vantage

571
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 1: point is underneath Star B. So the whole time I

572
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 1: never see Atlanta. But this mental reference system allows me

573
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 1: to break my journey into recognizable segments where I keep

574
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,479
Speaker 1: track of each time the third reference island or in

575
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: my analogy, Atlanta has moved under a new star from

576
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 1: my point of view. Does that make sense? Yeah, I

577
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: think so. And this this visual reference helps a bed. Yeah,

578
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 1: I'm sorry you folks at home can't see it. But uh, actually,

579
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 1: you know, if you do, if you do just a

580
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 1: Google search for ETACH reference points, I don't think you

581
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 1: will find the exact um illustration that I'm looking at,

582
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 1: but you'll see some that are similar to They give

583
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 1: you an idea of what we're talking about. It's e

584
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 1: T a K. Though it's complicated by the fact that

585
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 1: this appears also to be the name of a like

586
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 1: a car navigation system uh software. So if you if

587
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 1: you google atak islands there you'll see the right illustrations. Yeah. Yeah,

588
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: that'll cut out some of the car stuff. But I

589
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 1: think this system is is also really interesting because it

590
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 1: I think it still is important to think of it

591
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 1: as a useful tool for navigation, even though it provides

592
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: no additional information to the navigator. Instead, what it is

593
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 1: is it seems to be that it's useful as a

594
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 1: system for mentally keeping track of the information you already have,

595
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 1: for knowing how far you've come, where you are, and

596
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: how far you have left to go. Uh, which is

597
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 1: interesting because I mean, obviously that's an important part of

598
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 1: of any travel, right is sort of vision ualizing the

599
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 1: whole of your journey in ways they're not immediately apparent

600
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 1: to your senses. Yeah, and I guess as in modern

601
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,399
Speaker 1: travelers with modern instruments, be it at sea or on land. Yeah,

602
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 1: we're still engaging in some level of that. We still

603
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 1: have some level of a mental map, but we have

604
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 1: these other tools that make our mental map less important.

605
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 1: Maybe sometimes the mental map is even incorrect. Like you know,

606
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 1: if you're if you're lying heavily on a GPS device

607
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 1: to drive you from one point to the other. I

608
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 1: guess you could theoretically not know if you're really driving

609
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: north or west or south or what have you, as

610
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 1: long as the system got you there. But in this case,

611
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 1: the mental map is everything. The Milton in the mental

612
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 1: map has to be carefully cultivated using uh knowledge of

613
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,919
Speaker 1: all of these environmental cues, these different systems. Uh, it's

614
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 1: it's really quite quite amazing. Uh it's uh yeah, it's

615
00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: it's it's something else. So when you're driving somewhere knew

616
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 1: that you've never been before with the aid of a GPS,

617
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 1: you know, like a map, SAP on a phone or something,

618
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 1: can can you just plug it in and go or

619
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 1: do you, like me strongly prefer to look at the

620
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 1: whole route first. Um, I tend to just go the

621
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 1: same way I do recipes for meals. It's just I

622
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: just trust that. I mean, I look and to make

623
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 1: sure I have what I need. In the same case,

624
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 1: I'll look at my gas tank and make sure have

625
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 1: enough gas to get where I'm going. I'll see how

626
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: much how long it says it's gonna take for me

627
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 1: to get there, But then I'll just go. I'll just

628
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 1: start cooking, or I'll or I'll just start driving and

629
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,879
Speaker 1: trust that I will get there and I'll figure out

630
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 1: on the way of there any snacks. This must be

631
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,839
Speaker 1: differences in personality types somehow, I guess I'm I'm more

632
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 1: annoying about this or something. I really don't like having

633
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 1: to navigate based on just a moment to moment directions

634
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 1: on an app without seeing the entire route first. I

635
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 1: like to look at the whole map, see what the

636
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: steps are, see how far it is, see like, see

637
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:05,720
Speaker 1: it visually represented. That really matters to me for some reason.

638
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 1: I mean, I might glance at it if if I

639
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 1: know there's going to be some weird exit, if it

640
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 1: says that, oh, I'm getting off at this exit, and

641
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:14,799
Speaker 1: normally I don't do that. I'm kind of curious what

642
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 1: route I'm taking then, but otherwise I just go, well,

643
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 1: you know. The weird thing is, I think one reason

644
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 1: I do that, it's not like it usually gives me

645
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,840
Speaker 1: important information that I actually need in addition to whatever

646
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 1: the step by step instructions in real time are. Instead,

647
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,240
Speaker 1: I feel like it's something closer to the attack system,

648
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 1: where I just want to be able to visualize in

649
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 1: this abstract way the whole of the journey and sort

650
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 1: of imagine where I am along the journey at various points.

651
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 1: M yeah, but I feel like I'm going to do

652
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 1: that anyway as I drive, Like there's kind of a

653
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 1: perhaps a less accurate version of that that's going to

654
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 1: be going on in my head, but it says it's

655
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 1: as accurate as it needs to be. Like if the

656
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 1: GPS satellite sort suddenly get taken out by aliens or something, um,

657
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 1: you know, I could I get backtrack, or even if

658
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 1: it's if I've driven this particular route before, I can

659
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,280
Speaker 1: probably remember the rest of the way. Um. But otherwise

660
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 1: I'm good. Well, I wonder if we should call Part

661
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 1: two there and then come back in part three to

662
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,359
Speaker 1: talk about one of the next really interesting things which

663
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: is all of this has been mostly about navigation, direction

664
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 1: finding and navigation, especially on the open sea, but a

665
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,800
Speaker 1: whole other part of this science of navigation is land finding.

666
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 1: When you're getting close to an island, how do you

667
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: know that? And how do you find it? And so

668
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 1: let's save that for part three. Yeah, part three, we

669
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,919
Speaker 1: will we will make landfall or try to make landfall appropriately,

670
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 1: all right. In the meantime, if you would like to

671
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 1: check out other episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind,

672
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:47,479
Speaker 1: you know where you can find them in the Stuff

673
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,720
Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind podcast feed. We have core episodes

674
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 1: of Stuff to Blow Your Mind on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

675
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 1: On Monday's we do a little listener mail. On Wednesdays

676
00:37:56,080 --> 00:38:00,360
Speaker 1: we do short form episode we're calling it The Art Fact.

677
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 1: And then on Friday's we do Weird How Cinema. That's

678
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: our time to set aside most of the science and

679
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 1: the culture and just talk about a weird emotion picture

680
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 1: and we have reruns on the weekend. Huge thanks as

681
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 1: always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If

682
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 1: you would like to get in touch with us with

683
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 1: feedback on this episode or any other to suggest a

684
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: topic for the future, or just to say hello. You

685
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 1: can email us at contact at stuff to Blow your

686
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 1: Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production

687
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 1: of I heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio,

688
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're

689
00:38:40,760 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 1: listening to your favorite shows. Mo