1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:22,356 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 2 00:00:22,396 --> 00:00:25,636 Speaker 1: where we explored the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:26,076 --> 00:00:30,116 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman, and right now the only story that 4 00:00:30,196 --> 00:00:33,956 Speaker 1: anyone is talking about is coronavirus. In order to make 5 00:00:33,996 --> 00:00:38,316 Speaker 1: sense of coronavirus, we decided to speak to Sidhart Mukherjee, 6 00:00:38,636 --> 00:00:42,876 Speaker 1: who is probably the foremost interpreter in my generation of 7 00:00:42,916 --> 00:00:46,636 Speaker 1: the meaning of disease and how it affects our daily lives. 8 00:00:47,076 --> 00:00:49,716 Speaker 1: You probably know his book The Emperor of All Maladies 9 00:00:49,836 --> 00:00:53,076 Speaker 1: of Biography of Cancer, which one the twenty eleven Pulitzer 10 00:00:53,116 --> 00:00:56,396 Speaker 1: Prize for General Nonfiction. You may also know his twenty 11 00:00:56,396 --> 00:01:00,716 Speaker 1: seventeen book The Gene and Intimate History. Sidhart is a 12 00:01:00,836 --> 00:01:04,876 Speaker 1: voice of reason, logic, and thoughtfulness, and he's the person 13 00:01:04,996 --> 00:01:08,276 Speaker 1: I wanted to hear from at exactly this moment of panic. 14 00:01:09,836 --> 00:01:11,836 Speaker 1: So Sid, maybe we can start by a my just 15 00:01:11,996 --> 00:01:17,116 Speaker 1: asking you, how have you been thinking medically, statistically, personally, 16 00:01:17,196 --> 00:01:21,116 Speaker 1: or otherwise about the coronavirus epidemic as it gradually rolls 17 00:01:21,156 --> 00:01:25,876 Speaker 1: itself out. Well, so there are several questions in that, 18 00:01:26,036 --> 00:01:29,796 Speaker 1: because there's that I've been thinking different medically, personally and statistically. 19 00:01:29,836 --> 00:01:32,996 Speaker 1: But let me just tell you a very broad through 20 00:01:33,116 --> 00:01:38,276 Speaker 1: landscape view. Right now, we're in a moment of some 21 00:01:38,596 --> 00:01:43,036 Speaker 1: degree of confusion. There are, like any epidemic, or like 22 00:01:43,116 --> 00:01:48,036 Speaker 1: any virus, coronavirus has some absolutes. In other words, there's 23 00:01:48,036 --> 00:01:51,356 Speaker 1: some absolute things about the virus that are determined by 24 00:01:51,396 --> 00:01:54,396 Speaker 1: its biology and by the interaction of that biology with 25 00:01:54,516 --> 00:01:59,076 Speaker 1: the host. There's a real number which predicts how many 26 00:01:59,156 --> 00:02:01,836 Speaker 1: people you infect if you you know what the so 27 00:02:01,956 --> 00:02:05,036 Speaker 1: called are not value is and what the case fatality 28 00:02:05,156 --> 00:02:08,836 Speaker 1: rate is, etc. And we need to know those very 29 00:02:08,916 --> 00:02:12,956 Speaker 1: much in order to understand how to develop an effective 30 00:02:12,956 --> 00:02:16,396 Speaker 1: strategy against it, whether it be quarantine or you know, 31 00:02:16,796 --> 00:02:21,196 Speaker 1: medicines or whatever it might be. The problem is that 32 00:02:21,236 --> 00:02:28,636 Speaker 1: those numbers are included by random chance events and by 33 00:02:29,076 --> 00:02:32,916 Speaker 1: underreporting of the actual virus. So what do I mean 34 00:02:32,956 --> 00:02:34,956 Speaker 1: that by that? If you look at the map of 35 00:02:36,036 --> 00:02:39,516 Speaker 1: the spread, there are, as you know, eighty thousand odd 36 00:02:39,516 --> 00:02:44,516 Speaker 1: cases in China, there are one thousand od cases in Japan. 37 00:02:45,116 --> 00:02:48,396 Speaker 1: There are x thousand odd cases you know, in neighboring countries. 38 00:02:49,116 --> 00:02:53,836 Speaker 1: But then there are some obviously some peculiar anomalies. There's 39 00:02:53,836 --> 00:02:56,236 Speaker 1: this big case load in the Italy of all places 40 00:02:56,236 --> 00:02:59,956 Speaker 1: in northern Italy and Lombardy and other places. Why did 41 00:02:59,996 --> 00:03:02,236 Speaker 1: all of a sudden it skip all of Europe and 42 00:03:02,316 --> 00:03:08,356 Speaker 1: become this major infection in northern Italy. It's not as 43 00:03:08,396 --> 00:03:11,676 Speaker 1: if you know Han and you know Venus our major 44 00:03:11,756 --> 00:03:14,636 Speaker 1: criss crossing destinations for each other. I mean, there is 45 00:03:14,676 --> 00:03:17,956 Speaker 1: tourism of course between Italy and China. But something bizarre 46 00:03:17,996 --> 00:03:20,956 Speaker 1: happened there, something that we can we cannot simply explain. 47 00:03:21,436 --> 00:03:24,956 Speaker 1: So we are in a situation where we have to 48 00:03:24,996 --> 00:03:28,836 Speaker 1: get we have to provide two kinds of explanations. One 49 00:03:28,956 --> 00:03:31,916 Speaker 1: kind of explanation is as what I call are the 50 00:03:32,036 --> 00:03:37,276 Speaker 1: viral absolutes, the epidemiological absolutes, and the statistical absolutes. What 51 00:03:37,436 --> 00:03:40,676 Speaker 1: is the actual number of cases that is being detected 52 00:03:40,956 --> 00:03:43,436 Speaker 1: or found? And then there are these things that, you know, 53 00:03:43,436 --> 00:03:47,276 Speaker 1: how do we explain it that places that shouldn't seem 54 00:03:47,316 --> 00:03:52,076 Speaker 1: to have any connection are suddenly epicenters of the worst 55 00:03:52,116 --> 00:03:55,476 Speaker 1: parts of the epidemic. And that's what's that's what's very 56 00:03:55,476 --> 00:03:59,556 Speaker 1: confusing about it at the moment. So from what you've said, 57 00:04:00,236 --> 00:04:04,156 Speaker 1: the problem is that although there are absolutes, we definitely 58 00:04:04,156 --> 00:04:06,036 Speaker 1: don't know them now and we may not know them 59 00:04:06,116 --> 00:04:09,716 Speaker 1: until very very late in this process. They are there somewhere, 60 00:04:09,756 --> 00:04:12,036 Speaker 1: but we can't get at them. The best way to 61 00:04:12,036 --> 00:04:14,956 Speaker 1: get at them is is to let time is a 62 00:04:14,956 --> 00:04:16,796 Speaker 1: little bit more time pass, And I'm not talking about 63 00:04:16,796 --> 00:04:19,316 Speaker 1: a lot of time. I'm talking about, you know, a 64 00:04:19,396 --> 00:04:22,556 Speaker 1: process of weeks, maybe a couple of weeks, three weeks, etc. 65 00:04:23,636 --> 00:04:27,756 Speaker 1: And then also to in the meantime to separate the 66 00:04:28,116 --> 00:04:31,076 Speaker 1: wheat from the shaft, so to separate out the things 67 00:04:31,076 --> 00:04:36,676 Speaker 1: that are including these absolutes such as random movements and underreporting, 68 00:04:36,996 --> 00:04:39,516 Speaker 1: and find out what the real numbers are, so that 69 00:04:39,556 --> 00:04:42,756 Speaker 1: we get some sense in a given population what these 70 00:04:42,756 --> 00:04:47,476 Speaker 1: epidemological absolutes are. What is the actual case fatality rate? 71 00:04:48,316 --> 00:04:50,396 Speaker 1: So if you look, for instance, in the United States, 72 00:04:50,716 --> 00:04:54,556 Speaker 1: there have been five hundred odd cases and twenty two deaths, 73 00:04:54,596 --> 00:04:57,596 Speaker 1: that would put the case fatality rate at four percent, 74 00:04:57,756 --> 00:05:02,076 Speaker 1: give or take. If you look at another place in 75 00:05:02,116 --> 00:05:05,556 Speaker 1: parts of Europe, there've been a thousand cases and three deaths, 76 00:05:05,596 --> 00:05:08,916 Speaker 1: which would put it a full magnitude less than the 77 00:05:09,196 --> 00:05:12,556 Speaker 1: United States. But there is there is an actual number. 78 00:05:12,596 --> 00:05:14,636 Speaker 1: There's a number to be had, or even a range 79 00:05:14,636 --> 00:05:16,796 Speaker 1: of numbers to be had, of what the actual case 80 00:05:16,796 --> 00:05:19,796 Speaker 1: fatality rate is and the decision of the severity of 81 00:05:19,836 --> 00:05:23,036 Speaker 1: the epidemic will depend on that actual case fatality rate. 82 00:05:23,436 --> 00:05:27,036 Speaker 1: There is an actual number, an absolute truth as to 83 00:05:27,076 --> 00:05:30,916 Speaker 1: the number of people you are likely to infect under 84 00:05:30,956 --> 00:05:33,596 Speaker 1: normal circumstances in it through going through a normal day. 85 00:05:33,836 --> 00:05:37,396 Speaker 1: So it will take a few days, perhaps weeks, before 86 00:05:37,476 --> 00:05:40,836 Speaker 1: some of these clouds clear and we begin to get actual, 87 00:05:40,956 --> 00:05:43,996 Speaker 1: real estimates of what those numbers are. We're getting there. 88 00:05:44,076 --> 00:05:46,356 Speaker 1: We have a sense of what it is, I think 89 00:05:46,396 --> 00:05:50,316 Speaker 1: with COVID nineteen, but it's not all there yet and 90 00:05:50,636 --> 00:05:54,956 Speaker 1: we're slowly getting there. So first point then for listeners, 91 00:05:54,956 --> 00:05:57,596 Speaker 1: I think, is that this number, which we're all going 92 00:05:57,676 --> 00:05:59,996 Speaker 1: to have to become very familiar with, the R zero 93 00:06:00,156 --> 00:06:02,116 Speaker 1: or are not as you called it, which is the 94 00:06:02,196 --> 00:06:05,556 Speaker 1: number that tells us for a person who's infected and 95 00:06:05,716 --> 00:06:08,476 Speaker 1: is exposed to others, how many people will become infected, 96 00:06:08,916 --> 00:06:12,636 Speaker 1: is going to become clearer in the relatively near future. 97 00:06:13,036 --> 00:06:16,076 Speaker 1: And of course it might depend on the genetics of 98 00:06:16,116 --> 00:06:19,276 Speaker 1: a population. That's a very important point, which is to 99 00:06:19,316 --> 00:06:23,676 Speaker 1: figure out whether there's some populations that are particularly susceptible, 100 00:06:23,796 --> 00:06:28,076 Speaker 1: whereas some populations are particularly non susceptible. We just don't 101 00:06:28,116 --> 00:06:31,516 Speaker 1: know that yet. But again, these numbers will become clear. 102 00:06:32,556 --> 00:06:36,476 Speaker 1: Once they do become clearer, what will the next step 103 00:06:36,836 --> 00:06:39,996 Speaker 1: really be, Because then we leave the realm of absolutes 104 00:06:40,276 --> 00:06:45,156 Speaker 1: and we enter the realm of social policy response. First 105 00:06:45,156 --> 00:06:46,876 Speaker 1: of all, if it turns out that the number of 106 00:06:46,876 --> 00:06:50,716 Speaker 1: people that you can infect while you're an asymptomatic carrier 107 00:06:50,756 --> 00:06:55,236 Speaker 1: of the virus is large, then it makes most sense 108 00:06:55,316 --> 00:07:00,476 Speaker 1: to impose quarantining and rather draconian quarantining in areas that 109 00:07:00,516 --> 00:07:03,836 Speaker 1: are very severely affected, as China has done. As China 110 00:07:03,876 --> 00:07:07,236 Speaker 1: has done. That's correct. So if both those things are true, 111 00:07:07,276 --> 00:07:10,836 Speaker 1: if you're an asymptomatic carrier and you can infect a 112 00:07:10,916 --> 00:07:14,396 Speaker 1: large number of people, then quarantining and other sort of 113 00:07:14,596 --> 00:07:19,756 Speaker 1: I would say broadly prophylactic measures. Work Number two is 114 00:07:19,796 --> 00:07:23,716 Speaker 1: to identify the susceptible population, like who is the most 115 00:07:24,036 --> 00:07:28,756 Speaker 1: susceptible population to the exposure. Remember in the early days 116 00:07:28,836 --> 00:07:34,036 Speaker 1: of the HIV epidemic in the United States, those numbers 117 00:07:34,076 --> 00:07:36,636 Speaker 1: came about quite slowly, but eventually wor figure out there 118 00:07:36,756 --> 00:07:40,316 Speaker 1: was a susceptible population men who had sex with men, 119 00:07:40,716 --> 00:07:43,916 Speaker 1: and there was a susceptible population of hemophiliacs who are 120 00:07:43,956 --> 00:07:48,116 Speaker 1: receiving blood transfusions. Of course, internationally, now that's no longer true. 121 00:07:48,156 --> 00:07:52,316 Speaker 1: The vast number of people infectively HIV are no longer 122 00:07:52,316 --> 00:07:55,356 Speaker 1: those two populations. It's now become a completely different disease. 123 00:07:55,876 --> 00:08:01,156 Speaker 1: But when you identify susceptible populations where you have a 124 00:08:01,236 --> 00:08:04,716 Speaker 1: high level of transmission of risk, then you can make 125 00:08:04,996 --> 00:08:08,276 Speaker 1: social policy measures which are not as blunt as the 126 00:08:08,316 --> 00:08:11,676 Speaker 1: ones that are are made without those so they can 127 00:08:11,716 --> 00:08:14,236 Speaker 1: be much more targeted. You target the people at risk, 128 00:08:14,316 --> 00:08:16,596 Speaker 1: and you try to figure out how to move about 129 00:08:16,716 --> 00:08:21,236 Speaker 1: life in business and economy without imposing the kind of 130 00:08:21,436 --> 00:08:27,156 Speaker 1: very draconian quarantining efforts that we've seen in places like China. 131 00:08:27,236 --> 00:08:30,196 Speaker 1: So let's try to see if even under these conditions 132 00:08:30,196 --> 00:08:34,396 Speaker 1: of uncertainty, you can't guide our listeners through some kind 133 00:08:34,436 --> 00:08:37,716 Speaker 1: of rational behavior. I'm not saying rational behavior once we 134 00:08:37,836 --> 00:08:41,036 Speaker 1: know the numbers, but rational behavior right now under conditions 135 00:08:41,036 --> 00:08:47,156 Speaker 1: of uncertainty. So let's take a really simple example. You know, 136 00:08:47,236 --> 00:08:49,876 Speaker 1: I planned a month ago to bring my kids on 137 00:08:50,116 --> 00:08:54,076 Speaker 1: a spring break trip to New Orleans, so it's domestic 138 00:08:54,156 --> 00:08:57,636 Speaker 1: travel their kids. Very few kids have gotten this. If 139 00:08:57,676 --> 00:09:00,556 Speaker 1: they have gotten it, they haven't haven't had very bad symptoms. 140 00:09:01,076 --> 00:09:02,996 Speaker 1: But of course New Orleans is a tourist destination. There 141 00:09:03,036 --> 00:09:04,716 Speaker 1: are lots of people there. If you click on the 142 00:09:05,196 --> 00:09:07,676 Speaker 1: Louisiana State Board of Health, they say there are no 143 00:09:07,756 --> 00:09:10,676 Speaker 1: reported cases in Louisiana. Now you look at the CDC website, 144 00:09:10,956 --> 00:09:13,876 Speaker 1: it doesn't tell you not to engage in any domestic travel. 145 00:09:14,436 --> 00:09:17,796 Speaker 1: And yet, on the other hand, you know universities are 146 00:09:17,836 --> 00:09:20,836 Speaker 1: in the process as we speak, of telling everybody that 147 00:09:20,876 --> 00:09:23,556 Speaker 1: they're going to run their classes remotely, even in places 148 00:09:23,596 --> 00:09:27,556 Speaker 1: with very few cases of the disease reported. How irrational 149 00:09:27,756 --> 00:09:31,316 Speaker 1: is it or how rational is it to say, you know, 150 00:09:31,436 --> 00:09:33,676 Speaker 1: we've planned this trip, we're going to go. We're not 151 00:09:33,716 --> 00:09:36,596 Speaker 1: in any great risk factor. Airplane travel is not inherently 152 00:09:36,596 --> 00:09:40,356 Speaker 1: more dangerous than getting on public transportation. There's a question 153 00:09:40,476 --> 00:09:45,196 Speaker 1: of particular in dissociety. There's a question of personal liability 154 00:09:45,396 --> 00:09:49,836 Speaker 1: versus I would say institutional liability. So, and they're different. 155 00:09:49,996 --> 00:09:52,996 Speaker 1: When you're taking your children to travel with you to 156 00:09:53,116 --> 00:09:55,596 Speaker 1: New Orleans, I agree with you that the risk is 157 00:09:55,836 --> 00:09:58,716 Speaker 1: small children, as you very well know, don't seem to 158 00:09:58,756 --> 00:10:00,876 Speaker 1: get the severe variant of the disease. In fact, i'd 159 00:10:00,876 --> 00:10:05,156 Speaker 1: be more worried about you than your children. But you're 160 00:10:05,156 --> 00:10:09,676 Speaker 1: taking that on as a personal liability. Institutions, as you know, 161 00:10:10,596 --> 00:10:16,716 Speaker 1: especially in this climate, political climate, and social climate, don't 162 00:10:16,756 --> 00:10:20,236 Speaker 1: want to take institutional liabilities. It's a difference between personal 163 00:10:20,276 --> 00:10:23,116 Speaker 1: liability and institutional liability that we're talking about. I would 164 00:10:23,116 --> 00:10:26,116 Speaker 1: say the likelihood that a Stanford student will get a 165 00:10:26,156 --> 00:10:31,276 Speaker 1: severe variant of COVID nineteen is extremely low. The closure 166 00:10:31,276 --> 00:10:34,876 Speaker 1: of the university and conversion of into remote classes is 167 00:10:34,916 --> 00:10:39,276 Speaker 1: not the biggest deal, and so in that risk benefit analysis, 168 00:10:39,516 --> 00:10:44,636 Speaker 1: the institution chose to diminish their institutional liability by saying, look, 169 00:10:44,676 --> 00:10:48,276 Speaker 1: you know, we have the infrastructure already to do this, 170 00:10:48,836 --> 00:10:51,636 Speaker 1: and so we'll go ahead. This is in great contrast too. 171 00:10:51,716 --> 00:10:55,276 Speaker 1: For instance, the New York school system. As you very 172 00:10:55,276 --> 00:10:57,676 Speaker 1: well know, the New York school system is not just 173 00:10:57,796 --> 00:11:00,916 Speaker 1: a school system, but it's a social network, and it's 174 00:11:00,956 --> 00:11:06,036 Speaker 1: a social network that provides meals, often to under privileged 175 00:11:06,116 --> 00:11:10,436 Speaker 1: and kids from very poor back grounds. If they were 176 00:11:10,476 --> 00:11:13,076 Speaker 1: to stay at home, they would mean that their parents 177 00:11:13,476 --> 00:11:16,636 Speaker 1: would need to take time off work, and you know, 178 00:11:16,676 --> 00:11:20,036 Speaker 1: the economic costs would be staggering. So it's closing down 179 00:11:20,076 --> 00:11:23,996 Speaker 1: a school system where there is no simple infrastructure for 180 00:11:24,076 --> 00:11:27,636 Speaker 1: remote schooling anyway. Plus the actual school provides a safe 181 00:11:27,636 --> 00:11:32,596 Speaker 1: haven for millions of kids. The question of institutional liability 182 00:11:32,716 --> 00:11:37,716 Speaker 1: is completely different. So in your particular case, I think 183 00:11:37,756 --> 00:11:40,876 Speaker 1: that's a personal liability that you're taking with pretty minimal risk. 184 00:11:41,036 --> 00:11:42,716 Speaker 1: And then that, by the way, that might not only 185 00:11:42,756 --> 00:11:45,796 Speaker 1: be about any potential downside for a mere my kids. 186 00:11:45,796 --> 00:11:48,676 Speaker 1: It might be about we don't want to become carriers. 187 00:11:48,836 --> 00:11:51,956 Speaker 1: And the reality is that the more people circulating, the 188 00:11:52,036 --> 00:11:55,756 Speaker 1: more difficult it becomes to restrain the spread of the virus. 189 00:11:55,796 --> 00:11:57,676 Speaker 1: And so it might be as a publicly interested matter, 190 00:11:58,076 --> 00:12:00,236 Speaker 1: you know, one arguably ought to stay home, right, And 191 00:12:00,636 --> 00:12:06,636 Speaker 1: again the question really becomes a question of looking very 192 00:12:06,636 --> 00:12:11,556 Speaker 1: dispassionately at risk versus benefit. So remember that if you 193 00:12:11,996 --> 00:12:15,556 Speaker 1: look through as anyone might, you can it's all accessible. 194 00:12:16,076 --> 00:12:19,796 Speaker 1: There are recommendations now for virtually every country where you 195 00:12:19,796 --> 00:12:24,596 Speaker 1: could travel too, in terms of completely rest travel, restrict 196 00:12:24,676 --> 00:12:29,556 Speaker 1: unnecessary travel, or be free to travel. It would be 197 00:12:29,596 --> 00:12:33,356 Speaker 1: helpful to have that for the United States as well, 198 00:12:33,396 --> 00:12:36,596 Speaker 1: in terms of potentially every city or state that you're 199 00:12:36,636 --> 00:12:41,116 Speaker 1: traveling to, because the hotspot areas are known. So in 200 00:12:41,116 --> 00:12:44,476 Speaker 1: other words, someone like you should be able to without 201 00:12:44,596 --> 00:12:48,316 Speaker 1: multiple clicks, go to Louisiana, go to New Orleans, figure 202 00:12:48,316 --> 00:12:52,396 Speaker 1: out what the case numbers are today, and figure out 203 00:12:52,476 --> 00:12:56,476 Speaker 1: what the actual risk is, and make a personal decision 204 00:12:56,796 --> 00:12:58,956 Speaker 1: whether to take on that risk, whatever it might be. 205 00:12:59,436 --> 00:13:01,756 Speaker 1: Can I ask a policy question that follows from that? 206 00:13:01,876 --> 00:13:04,876 Speaker 1: So one interesting thing to me is that no government 207 00:13:04,916 --> 00:13:10,276 Speaker 1: website has said the following, we advise you not to 208 00:13:10,356 --> 00:13:13,836 Speaker 1: engage in unnecessary travel, even to places where there are 209 00:13:13,836 --> 00:13:16,836 Speaker 1: no reported cases. That has not been said on any 210 00:13:16,836 --> 00:13:21,116 Speaker 1: government website. And yet my guess is that many physicians 211 00:13:21,156 --> 00:13:23,516 Speaker 1: would say, well, this is common sense, don't engage in 212 00:13:23,596 --> 00:13:26,356 Speaker 1: unnecessary travel, even to an unaffected place. I mean, my 213 00:13:26,476 --> 00:13:31,036 Speaker 1: university sent around guidelines saying if it's university business, no 214 00:13:31,236 --> 00:13:36,196 Speaker 1: unnecessary travel on university business anywhere within the domestic United States. 215 00:13:36,876 --> 00:13:39,476 Speaker 1: So what I'm wondering is, as a physician, do you 216 00:13:39,516 --> 00:13:42,156 Speaker 1: have the sense that there is some gap between what 217 00:13:42,916 --> 00:13:46,596 Speaker 1: rational medical professionals would at this point recommend and what 218 00:13:46,676 --> 00:13:51,676 Speaker 1: government agencies are recommending, maybe potentially for political reasons, you know. 219 00:13:51,876 --> 00:13:53,556 Speaker 1: In other words, I I don't have the faith that 220 00:13:53,556 --> 00:13:56,356 Speaker 1: I would like to have that the CDC hasn't advised 221 00:13:56,396 --> 00:14:01,756 Speaker 1: me not to travel domestically because it's safe to do so, 222 00:14:02,116 --> 00:14:04,996 Speaker 1: as opposed to the CDC hasn't recommended that I not 223 00:14:05,076 --> 00:14:07,556 Speaker 1: traveled domestley because they're worried that the President will get 224 00:14:07,596 --> 00:14:11,356 Speaker 1: angry at them because he'll say there's down the economy. Well, 225 00:14:11,396 --> 00:14:16,436 Speaker 1: I think the CDC is being quite rational and careful here. 226 00:14:17,956 --> 00:14:21,516 Speaker 1: I don't think. I'm not sure, but I don't think 227 00:14:21,556 --> 00:14:25,796 Speaker 1: that the reason that the CDC has not issued a 228 00:14:25,836 --> 00:14:29,796 Speaker 1: blanket statement against travel is that it's it's it's trying 229 00:14:29,836 --> 00:14:32,316 Speaker 1: to appease the president. I just think the CDC is 230 00:14:32,836 --> 00:14:38,796 Speaker 1: trying to be reasonable about shutting down, you know, things 231 00:14:38,836 --> 00:14:42,756 Speaker 1: that make the normal business and the normal lives of 232 00:14:42,796 --> 00:14:49,676 Speaker 1: Americans livable under these circumstances. Said, one of your superpowers 233 00:14:49,956 --> 00:14:53,356 Speaker 1: is not only to be a top and scientist, but 234 00:14:53,476 --> 00:14:56,836 Speaker 1: also to be able to explain to us the cultural 235 00:14:56,916 --> 00:15:02,036 Speaker 1: meanings of our interaction with scientific reality. When you wear 236 00:15:02,196 --> 00:15:05,996 Speaker 1: that hat, your interpreter of maladies had, how do you 237 00:15:06,036 --> 00:15:10,396 Speaker 1: think about what we're going through at the moment. Well, 238 00:15:10,436 --> 00:15:15,316 Speaker 1: I think that in some ways this reads like a 239 00:15:15,476 --> 00:15:21,196 Speaker 1: modern version of Cameos. The plague. The first set of 240 00:15:22,076 --> 00:15:25,596 Speaker 1: decisions that were made in Wuhan which we now know 241 00:15:25,956 --> 00:15:29,596 Speaker 1: and understand a little bit better, were made out of 242 00:15:29,636 --> 00:15:35,436 Speaker 1: fear and were actually extraordinarily erroneous decisions, which in turn 243 00:15:35,516 --> 00:15:40,756 Speaker 1: points to the idea that given the globalization of the world, 244 00:15:40,836 --> 00:15:43,556 Speaker 1: given the nature of travel, given the nature of the 245 00:15:43,556 --> 00:15:47,156 Speaker 1: interactions between people, you know, this isn't this isn't a 246 00:15:47,316 --> 00:15:52,196 Speaker 1: China only problem. It soon becomes a world problem. China's 247 00:15:52,236 --> 00:15:56,516 Speaker 1: suffering grave economic consequences of this now, and it will 248 00:15:56,556 --> 00:16:00,036 Speaker 1: continue to suffer grave economic consequences. But those grave economic 249 00:16:00,076 --> 00:16:05,076 Speaker 1: consequences were themselves the consequences of a political regime which 250 00:16:05,156 --> 00:16:10,916 Speaker 1: is fundamentally unable to be free with information. So the 251 00:16:10,996 --> 00:16:14,516 Speaker 1: first thing it highlights, I think in the cultural realm 252 00:16:15,116 --> 00:16:18,436 Speaker 1: is that information moves at light speed around the world today, 253 00:16:18,436 --> 00:16:21,156 Speaker 1: and that's a good thing in the case of an epidemic. 254 00:16:21,476 --> 00:16:26,356 Speaker 1: The suppression of information, a paternalistic attitude towards a grave 255 00:16:26,396 --> 00:16:31,276 Speaker 1: disease is a terrible decision to make, And in some ways, 256 00:16:32,356 --> 00:16:35,596 Speaker 1: there's a kind of reckoning that's going on within China, 257 00:16:35,596 --> 00:16:39,076 Speaker 1: as many people have noted, there's a reckoning that's going 258 00:16:39,156 --> 00:16:41,956 Speaker 1: on whether this can continue or not, I mean, can 259 00:16:42,276 --> 00:16:47,516 Speaker 1: this statewide a suppression of facts we still don't know 260 00:16:47,596 --> 00:16:50,636 Speaker 1: actually what's true and what's not true. The Chinese are 261 00:16:50,636 --> 00:16:55,276 Speaker 1: now telling us that they're quarantining has been extraordinarily successful, etc. 262 00:16:56,156 --> 00:17:01,276 Speaker 1: Strong Men presidents who believe in confining people are very 263 00:17:01,356 --> 00:17:03,636 Speaker 1: likely to believe this kind of rhetoric. Oh, you know, 264 00:17:03,716 --> 00:17:07,276 Speaker 1: just throw everyone into, you know, behind blue doors and 265 00:17:07,596 --> 00:17:10,876 Speaker 1: it'll all be fine. So I think what it's revealed, 266 00:17:11,476 --> 00:17:15,916 Speaker 1: I think is the is how vulnerable the world is 267 00:17:16,516 --> 00:17:21,236 Speaker 1: to political regimes that have really become outdated, and how 268 00:17:21,276 --> 00:17:25,796 Speaker 1: quickly information can move, how restricting that information can have 269 00:17:25,876 --> 00:17:30,636 Speaker 1: grave consequences for the country itself. What if it turns out, though, that, 270 00:17:30,956 --> 00:17:35,236 Speaker 1: notwithstanding China's restriction on information, and notwithstanding the fact that 271 00:17:35,276 --> 00:17:37,956 Speaker 1: we of course can't trust what the government is saying 272 00:17:37,956 --> 00:17:41,756 Speaker 1: about data, that the rather draconian response that they did 273 00:17:41,836 --> 00:17:44,396 Speaker 1: worked really well. I mean, I can imagine, you know, 274 00:17:44,436 --> 00:17:46,076 Speaker 1: this is just one of the possible states of the world, 275 00:17:46,116 --> 00:17:49,356 Speaker 1: but I can imagine an outcome where it actually turns 276 00:17:49,356 --> 00:17:52,956 Speaker 1: out that the draconian response was very effective, and that 277 00:17:53,116 --> 00:17:56,556 Speaker 1: the less draconian responses that may be undertaken by more 278 00:17:56,596 --> 00:17:59,356 Speaker 1: liberal countries like the United States turn out not to 279 00:17:59,436 --> 00:18:03,836 Speaker 1: contain the disease as well, absolutely, and which is again 280 00:18:03,916 --> 00:18:09,636 Speaker 1: why you know a kind of help from the the 281 00:18:09,796 --> 00:18:14,116 Speaker 1: CDC would be is coming and is most appreciated. I 282 00:18:14,116 --> 00:18:17,916 Speaker 1: should also say that the way to do this, it's 283 00:18:17,956 --> 00:18:23,036 Speaker 1: really threading a needle, and threading a needle very carefully. 284 00:18:23,116 --> 00:18:24,916 Speaker 1: This is going on right now in Italy, as you 285 00:18:24,996 --> 00:18:29,236 Speaker 1: very well know. I mean, the Italians are famously suspicious 286 00:18:29,236 --> 00:18:33,756 Speaker 1: of their political system. They enjoy an enormous number of 287 00:18:33,756 --> 00:18:37,636 Speaker 1: liberties and freedoms, and you know their police cars parked 288 00:18:37,676 --> 00:18:41,796 Speaker 1: along the major highways of in northern Italy making sure 289 00:18:41,836 --> 00:18:45,396 Speaker 1: that people don't move. You can't imagine the conflict between 290 00:18:45,436 --> 00:18:48,636 Speaker 1: those two cultures. Giving up the people who have enjoyed 291 00:18:48,676 --> 00:18:52,996 Speaker 1: historical and continue to enjoy an enormous amount of personal freedoms, 292 00:18:53,796 --> 00:18:57,556 Speaker 1: forcing them not to move, not to congregate in the square, 293 00:18:57,636 --> 00:19:01,116 Speaker 1: or to go to their local bar for casual drink 294 00:19:01,756 --> 00:19:06,436 Speaker 1: is obviously extraordinarily disruptive. So I think we'll have to 295 00:19:06,476 --> 00:19:10,436 Speaker 1: thread a very fine needle in terms of identifying hotspots, 296 00:19:11,236 --> 00:19:17,236 Speaker 1: identifying the vulnerable populations, and giving reasonable advice which takes 297 00:19:17,276 --> 00:19:20,876 Speaker 1: the cost and benefit risk appropriately. And it has to 298 00:19:20,876 --> 00:19:24,116 Speaker 1: be done on a case by case basis. It can't 299 00:19:24,156 --> 00:19:27,636 Speaker 1: be done on a blanket basis. Yet, Now, if it 300 00:19:27,676 --> 00:19:31,516 Speaker 1: turns out that the you know, there's more mutations coming more, 301 00:19:31,956 --> 00:19:33,436 Speaker 1: you know, if it turns out that you can get 302 00:19:33,436 --> 00:19:37,556 Speaker 1: reinfected by the virus, which we don't know yet. It's unlikely, 303 00:19:37,556 --> 00:19:40,076 Speaker 1: but we don't know yet, then of course all bets 304 00:19:40,076 --> 00:19:42,156 Speaker 1: are off. I wanted to ask you actually about that, 305 00:19:42,276 --> 00:19:45,076 Speaker 1: about the genetic side of it, wearing your geneticis had. 306 00:19:45,756 --> 00:19:47,876 Speaker 1: What do you think are Maybe it's impossible to say, 307 00:19:47,916 --> 00:19:53,036 Speaker 1: but the probabilities of evolution happening rather quickly in the 308 00:19:53,036 --> 00:19:56,116 Speaker 1: middle of the outbreak in such a way that we 309 00:19:56,236 --> 00:19:59,476 Speaker 1: get not only the question of people getting reinfected, but 310 00:19:59,516 --> 00:20:02,876 Speaker 1: also potentially just different strains of COVID nineteen, you know, 311 00:20:02,916 --> 00:20:06,996 Speaker 1: COVID twenty or twenty one making their way into the population. Well, 312 00:20:06,996 --> 00:20:10,196 Speaker 1: it depends on what the counter pressure are, as it were, 313 00:20:10,276 --> 00:20:18,916 Speaker 1: because evolution happens through various mechanisms with these viruses, with 314 00:20:19,076 --> 00:20:24,596 Speaker 1: these families of viruses, and usually the sort of the 315 00:20:25,196 --> 00:20:28,956 Speaker 1: big evolutionary change, as it were, which is the assortment 316 00:20:29,036 --> 00:20:34,396 Speaker 1: of the segments of RNA, have already happened. Most of 317 00:20:34,476 --> 00:20:39,636 Speaker 1: these viruses come from other populations, other animals and so 318 00:20:39,756 --> 00:20:44,836 Speaker 1: therefore usually have not developed strategies to evade the immune 319 00:20:44,836 --> 00:20:49,076 Speaker 1: system and remain or become chronic in humans. In terms 320 00:20:49,076 --> 00:20:52,596 Speaker 1: of new epidemics. It was an exception with HIV, but 321 00:20:52,676 --> 00:20:56,316 Speaker 1: aside from that, most of these viruses usually once you 322 00:20:56,356 --> 00:20:59,036 Speaker 1: get immunity to it, you get immunity to it and 323 00:20:59,196 --> 00:21:02,436 Speaker 1: you don't get reinfected. We think that that's the case 324 00:21:02,636 --> 00:21:06,476 Speaker 1: given what's happened. Otherwise you you know, WUHAN would still 325 00:21:06,516 --> 00:21:11,036 Speaker 1: be flaring. So based on all the information that we have, 326 00:21:11,116 --> 00:21:14,036 Speaker 1: if it's true information, we have a center of the 327 00:21:14,036 --> 00:21:17,276 Speaker 1: epidemic where there was a wave of deaths unfortunately, but 328 00:21:17,316 --> 00:21:20,996 Speaker 1: then it stopped brewing. It's not flaring still. So to 329 00:21:21,156 --> 00:21:24,836 Speaker 1: some extent, the best information that we have so far 330 00:21:25,076 --> 00:21:27,796 Speaker 1: is that the virus, of course it will mutate, but 331 00:21:27,836 --> 00:21:31,196 Speaker 1: that immunity does develop to it, and that immunity is protective. 332 00:21:31,996 --> 00:21:35,076 Speaker 1: That's very good news for future vaccines. A vaccine is 333 00:21:35,076 --> 00:21:37,356 Speaker 1: not coming tomorrow, but that's very good news for a 334 00:21:37,396 --> 00:21:40,756 Speaker 1: future vaccine because of course you need community. Is there 335 00:21:40,756 --> 00:21:44,196 Speaker 1: anything that you think we're missing from the public discourse 336 00:21:44,436 --> 00:21:48,516 Speaker 1: around COVID nineteen right now, Well, one thing that's missing 337 00:21:48,676 --> 00:21:51,196 Speaker 1: is you know, look getting a vaccine will take a 338 00:21:51,196 --> 00:21:55,076 Speaker 1: long time because vaccines are complicated to make. They're complicated 339 00:21:55,116 --> 00:21:58,116 Speaker 1: a test. They have to be tested on populations to 340 00:21:58,196 --> 00:22:02,316 Speaker 1: be produced at a very high standard. What's missing is 341 00:22:03,196 --> 00:22:07,956 Speaker 1: why and why not for the people who are actually 342 00:22:07,956 --> 00:22:13,036 Speaker 1: falling sick. Why or why not? We don't have either 343 00:22:13,596 --> 00:22:18,596 Speaker 1: antibodies or in others biological or small molecules that are 344 00:22:18,636 --> 00:22:23,596 Speaker 1: directed against the viral enzymes. We know them. The genome 345 00:22:23,636 --> 00:22:27,236 Speaker 1: has been sequenced, we know what the what the vulnerabilities are, 346 00:22:27,396 --> 00:22:29,996 Speaker 1: and I know that there's several facilities that are screening 347 00:22:30,116 --> 00:22:34,196 Speaker 1: for small molecules as well as biologics that will help. 348 00:22:34,476 --> 00:22:37,636 Speaker 1: These are not vaccines, right, so these are injected biologics 349 00:22:37,636 --> 00:22:42,636 Speaker 1: that will enact, hopefully inactivate the virus. So an update 350 00:22:42,836 --> 00:22:49,636 Speaker 1: from the CDC on that process, those kinds of ideas 351 00:22:49,796 --> 00:22:53,076 Speaker 1: from the nation's highest authority in terms of the management 352 00:22:53,076 --> 00:22:55,676 Speaker 1: of illness would be a helpful thing to have, because 353 00:22:56,156 --> 00:23:00,196 Speaker 1: talking emptily about a vaccine which could really be months away, 354 00:23:00,516 --> 00:23:02,636 Speaker 1: is not not going to help right now. If we 355 00:23:02,636 --> 00:23:05,436 Speaker 1: could say to it to you that you know, if 356 00:23:05,436 --> 00:23:08,556 Speaker 1: you get really, really sick, Here's where we are in 357 00:23:08,636 --> 00:23:12,356 Speaker 1: terms of medicine development for this, and there's no better 358 00:23:12,396 --> 00:23:14,996 Speaker 1: country in the world, I think, than the United States 359 00:23:15,036 --> 00:23:18,756 Speaker 1: in developing medicines. Then I think there will be less 360 00:23:18,796 --> 00:23:22,276 Speaker 1: uncertainty and a panic around what's happening next in terms 361 00:23:22,316 --> 00:23:27,436 Speaker 1: of medical development against the virus. Last question for you, 362 00:23:27,476 --> 00:23:31,356 Speaker 1: who said, where are you telling your kids? Well, so, 363 00:23:31,596 --> 00:23:34,436 Speaker 1: I mean we've been following every day what the CDC 364 00:23:34,596 --> 00:23:38,036 Speaker 1: has been recommending. I mean, thankfully, as I said, children 365 00:23:38,076 --> 00:23:43,116 Speaker 1: are not the worst affected. We have not been doing 366 00:23:43,156 --> 00:23:47,556 Speaker 1: anything except saying to them, try to in New York City, 367 00:23:47,556 --> 00:23:50,316 Speaker 1: where now there are several cases, we've been telling them, 368 00:23:50,356 --> 00:23:53,236 Speaker 1: try to avoid public places which are not you know, 369 00:23:53,276 --> 00:23:56,956 Speaker 1: where there's where it's not necessary to go, wash your 370 00:23:56,956 --> 00:24:01,556 Speaker 1: hands frequently, as frequently as possible. And if you know 371 00:24:01,676 --> 00:24:06,636 Speaker 1: someone who's sick, or obviously if you have symptoms yourself, 372 00:24:07,076 --> 00:24:09,036 Speaker 1: let us know at the earliest. I mean, nothing more, 373 00:24:09,396 --> 00:24:11,876 Speaker 1: nothing less than that. I also led with my kids 374 00:24:11,876 --> 00:24:13,916 Speaker 1: with the don't worry, you're going to be fine. Kids 375 00:24:13,916 --> 00:24:15,916 Speaker 1: don't seem to be getting this, and that an amazingly 376 00:24:15,956 --> 00:24:18,996 Speaker 1: calming effect on them. So I appreciate that part of 377 00:24:19,036 --> 00:24:21,196 Speaker 1: the advice as well as the rest of it. Thank 378 00:24:21,236 --> 00:24:24,196 Speaker 1: you so much for a really calm and rational account 379 00:24:24,236 --> 00:24:28,476 Speaker 1: of an ongoing breaking story that continues to have scary parts, 380 00:24:28,516 --> 00:24:31,996 Speaker 1: but that, as you say, canna, ultimately be managed by 381 00:24:32,196 --> 00:24:35,196 Speaker 1: getting to the absolute truths that are out there and 382 00:24:35,236 --> 00:24:38,996 Speaker 1: then using logic and reason and risk benefit analysis to 383 00:24:39,076 --> 00:24:42,556 Speaker 1: try to get us to a manageable outcome and perhaps 384 00:24:42,636 --> 00:24:46,556 Speaker 1: even to some potential treatments for the worst affected. Thank 385 00:24:46,596 --> 00:24:48,356 Speaker 1: you very much for your time, my pleasure. Thank you 386 00:24:48,396 --> 00:24:56,596 Speaker 1: so much. We'll be back with this week's playback in 387 00:24:56,636 --> 00:25:03,516 Speaker 1: just a moment now for our playback. I want to 388 00:25:03,556 --> 00:25:07,756 Speaker 1: tell you Gorezuch. I want to tell you Kavanaugh, you 389 00:25:07,876 --> 00:25:12,636 Speaker 1: have released earl Wind and you will pay the price. 390 00:25:15,076 --> 00:25:19,116 Speaker 1: That's Democratic Senator Charles Schumer last week, speaking in a 391 00:25:19,276 --> 00:25:22,116 Speaker 1: slightly unhinged tone, if you ask me, in front of 392 00:25:22,116 --> 00:25:24,956 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court at an abortion rights rally while an 393 00:25:25,076 --> 00:25:28,316 Speaker 1: oral argument was going on about an important abortion rights case. 394 00:25:29,196 --> 00:25:33,276 Speaker 1: Since then, Schumer received intense criticism from President Trump, but 395 00:25:33,396 --> 00:25:36,836 Speaker 1: maybe more significantly from Chief Justice John Roberts and a 396 00:25:36,876 --> 00:25:41,676 Speaker 1: number of Republican senators, and he apologized, kind of saying 397 00:25:42,076 --> 00:25:45,996 Speaker 1: I shouldn't have used the words I did. Here's why 398 00:25:46,076 --> 00:25:49,276 Speaker 1: this whole moment in the news is actually a pretty 399 00:25:49,316 --> 00:25:53,356 Speaker 1: big deal. Ever since Donald Trump became president, and in 400 00:25:53,396 --> 00:25:55,676 Speaker 1: fact even before that when he was running for office, 401 00:25:56,156 --> 00:25:59,396 Speaker 1: Donald Trump has made the federal judiciary one of his 402 00:25:59,476 --> 00:26:03,276 Speaker 1: central targets. He has a specific goal in mind to 403 00:26:03,596 --> 00:26:07,956 Speaker 1: undercut and undermine public trust in the judiciary, and he 404 00:26:07,996 --> 00:26:10,876 Speaker 1: has a very Trumpian way of doing it. He singles 405 00:26:10,916 --> 00:26:15,316 Speaker 1: out individual judges, often by name. He says that they're illegitimate, 406 00:26:15,556 --> 00:26:17,836 Speaker 1: He points to who appointed them and says that that 407 00:26:17,876 --> 00:26:20,516 Speaker 1: will determine what they're going to do when they're in office, 408 00:26:20,916 --> 00:26:23,436 Speaker 1: and ultimately he hints that he would like to be 409 00:26:23,516 --> 00:26:27,596 Speaker 1: able to push them around. What Schumer was doing was 410 00:26:27,716 --> 00:26:32,476 Speaker 1: borrowing a page from the Trumpian rhetoric a threat. Each 411 00:26:32,516 --> 00:26:35,996 Speaker 1: time someone outside of the Trump administration does that, it 412 00:26:36,076 --> 00:26:39,676 Speaker 1: tends to suggest the Trump's approach is perfectly fine. It 413 00:26:39,756 --> 00:26:44,076 Speaker 1: tends not only to further undercut the judiciary, it also 414 00:26:44,156 --> 00:26:46,276 Speaker 1: tends to suggest that we should all move to a 415 00:26:46,316 --> 00:26:49,756 Speaker 1: world where it's completely normal and fine to threaten and 416 00:26:49,836 --> 00:26:53,396 Speaker 1: attack judges. And there's one more problem with what Schumer's doing. 417 00:26:53,716 --> 00:26:58,196 Speaker 1: It's pretty much guaranteed to backfire. In the case that 418 00:26:58,276 --> 00:27:00,556 Speaker 1: was going on in the Supreme Court when Schumer was 419 00:27:00,636 --> 00:27:04,916 Speaker 1: outside making his threats. The primary issue before the justices 420 00:27:05,276 --> 00:27:08,556 Speaker 1: was whether the Court would follow its precedent that would 421 00:27:08,556 --> 00:27:11,996 Speaker 1: actually lead to the striking down of a Louisiana anti 422 00:27:12,036 --> 00:27:15,116 Speaker 1: abortion law, or whether the justices would deviate from a 423 00:27:15,116 --> 00:27:19,316 Speaker 1: relatively recently created precedent and go a different way. In 424 00:27:19,356 --> 00:27:23,556 Speaker 1: that debate, Chief Justice John Roberts is the absolutely all 425 00:27:23,676 --> 00:27:27,436 Speaker 1: important swing vote. He in fact did not vote for 426 00:27:27,476 --> 00:27:29,756 Speaker 1: the decision on which the precedent would be based in 427 00:27:29,796 --> 00:27:31,916 Speaker 1: this case, so we know that he didn't agree with 428 00:27:31,916 --> 00:27:34,356 Speaker 1: that case. But what he was thinking about, and this 429 00:27:34,436 --> 00:27:37,316 Speaker 1: was very clear in the oral argument, was precisely whether 430 00:27:37,516 --> 00:27:40,076 Speaker 1: to follow that precedent even if he didn't like it, 431 00:27:40,396 --> 00:27:42,556 Speaker 1: even though that would send the public message that the 432 00:27:42,596 --> 00:27:46,556 Speaker 1: Court was not following precedent. There's probably no more pressing 433 00:27:46,556 --> 00:27:48,596 Speaker 1: issue in front of the Supreme Court right at this 434 00:27:48,716 --> 00:27:52,516 Speaker 1: juncture than how much precedent should matter. Roberts is the 435 00:27:52,516 --> 00:27:58,036 Speaker 1: swing vote. By attacking other justices, Schumer guaranteed that Roberts 436 00:27:58,076 --> 00:28:00,316 Speaker 1: would have to come out against him, and in the 437 00:28:00,396 --> 00:28:03,436 Speaker 1: process of doing so, Roberts would find that he did 438 00:28:03,476 --> 00:28:05,316 Speaker 1: not want to signal to the world that he was 439 00:28:05,396 --> 00:28:11,996 Speaker 1: listening to Schumer. Schumer very possibly caused Liberals Roberts's own 440 00:28:12,276 --> 00:28:15,876 Speaker 1: vote in this case. In other words, Schumer was really 441 00:28:15,956 --> 00:28:19,436 Speaker 1: playing with fire. His words at the margin might be 442 00:28:19,516 --> 00:28:22,916 Speaker 1: a decisive factor in pushing John Roberts to the conservative 443 00:28:22,916 --> 00:28:25,756 Speaker 1: side in a case where his comments and oral arguments 444 00:28:25,796 --> 00:28:28,716 Speaker 1: suggest he was at least toying with the possibility of 445 00:28:28,756 --> 00:28:32,196 Speaker 1: sticking with the Liberals on a precedent theory. We don't 446 00:28:32,196 --> 00:28:33,756 Speaker 1: know how this case will come out, and we don't 447 00:28:33,756 --> 00:28:36,756 Speaker 1: know how the other important cases involving president will come out. 448 00:28:36,956 --> 00:28:39,556 Speaker 1: We do know that in this moment, John Roberts must 449 00:28:39,556 --> 00:28:42,876 Speaker 1: be thinking about nothing but the question of precedent all day, 450 00:28:42,916 --> 00:28:46,956 Speaker 1: every day. In that environment, it is remarkably unwise for 451 00:28:46,996 --> 00:28:50,036 Speaker 1: the Senate minority leader to contribute to an environment where 452 00:28:50,116 --> 00:28:53,116 Speaker 1: Democrats are threatening the courts in just the way that 453 00:28:53,196 --> 00:28:56,556 Speaker 1: Donald Trump is the correct narrative for Democrats and indeed 454 00:28:56,596 --> 00:28:58,916 Speaker 1: for anyone who wants to protect the independence of the 455 00:28:58,996 --> 00:29:01,796 Speaker 1: judiciary and precedent, and the value of the rule of 456 00:29:01,876 --> 00:29:04,476 Speaker 1: law is that the courts should be allowed to do 457 00:29:04,676 --> 00:29:07,996 Speaker 1: their job and should be treated respectfully in the process. 458 00:29:08,676 --> 00:29:11,636 Speaker 1: Chumer wasn't just wrong on the merits, he was dangerously 459 00:29:11,636 --> 00:29:16,716 Speaker 1: wrong in the real world. Deep Background is brought to 460 00:29:16,716 --> 00:29:20,316 Speaker 1: you by Pushkin Industries. Our producer is Lydia gene Kott, 461 00:29:20,636 --> 00:29:23,996 Speaker 1: with studio recording by Joseph Fridman and mastering by Jason 462 00:29:24,076 --> 00:29:28,556 Speaker 1: Gambrell and Jason Rostkowski. Our showrunner is Sophie mckibbon. Our 463 00:29:28,596 --> 00:29:31,916 Speaker 1: theme music is composed by Luis Gera special thanks to 464 00:29:31,916 --> 00:29:35,716 Speaker 1: the Pushkin Brass, Malcolm Godwell, Jacob Weissberg, and Mia Lobel. 465 00:29:36,316 --> 00:29:39,836 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. I also write a column for Bloomberg Opinion, 466 00:29:39,956 --> 00:29:43,236 Speaker 1: which you can find at Bloomberg dot com Backslash Feldman. 467 00:29:43,836 --> 00:29:47,596 Speaker 1: To discover Bloomberg's original slate of podcasts, go to Bloomberg 468 00:29:47,636 --> 00:29:51,156 Speaker 1: dot com Backslash Podcasts. You can follow me on Twitter 469 00:29:51,356 --> 00:29:54,636 Speaker 1: at Noah R. Feldman. This is Deep Background.