Speaker 1: Don't let them take away your joy, don't let them
Speaker 1: take away your hope, don't let them take away your
Speaker 1: sense of power, because if they succeed in doing that,
Speaker 1: things will indeed ever change.
Speaker 2: There Are No Girls on the Internet.
Speaker 3: As a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget
Speaker 3: Todd and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.
Speaker 3: October eleventh is National Coming Out Day. We spend a
Speaker 3: lot of time on this podcast talking about the very
Speaker 3: real threats facing the LGBTQ plus community, and while there
Speaker 3: are many fights ahead, it's important not to lose sight
Speaker 3: of all the wins we've had for quality, because we're winning.
Speaker 3: Just asked Kevin Jennings.
Speaker 1: My name is Kevin Jennings, I use hee him pronouns,
Speaker 1: and I'm the CEO of LAMB I Llegal, which is
Speaker 1: America's oldest LGBTQ plus legal right organization LAMBDA Legals.
Speaker 3: Lawyers have won precedent setting civil rights cases on everything
Speaker 3: from marriage equality to expressions of gender identity to healthcare discrimination.
Speaker 3: But before Kevin was a CEO of the oldest LGBTQ
Speaker 3: legal rights organization in the country, he was an educator
Speaker 3: just worried about his students. So, Kevin, you actually started
Speaker 3: your career as an educator, right, like fighting discrimination for educators.
Speaker 2: Tell me about that.
Speaker 1: Sure. So I began my career as a high school
Speaker 1: teacher in nineteen eighty five. I'm a first generation college graduate.
Speaker 1: I was the first person in my family to go
Speaker 1: to college, and so I wanted to go back into
Speaker 1: the classroom and try to help young people have the
Speaker 1: opportunities that I had had, which no one else in
Speaker 1: my family had ever had before. My father only had
Speaker 1: a tenth grade education, my mother only had a sixth
Speaker 1: grade education. We were very poor growing up. I grew
Speaker 1: up in a trailer park on an unpaved dirt road
Speaker 1: and unincorporated town in North Carolina, and I was raised
Speaker 1: very much with this philosophy of giving back. So I
Speaker 1: became a teacher and I lost my first job because
Speaker 1: I was gay in Providence, Rhode Island. You have to remember,
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty five, there was only one state that
Speaker 1: band discrimination based on sexual orientation, and for people who
Speaker 1: don't know, it was Wisconsin, which comes as a surprise
Speaker 1: to many people. So if you lost your job because
Speaker 1: you were gay, there was nothing you could do about it.
Speaker 1: So when I went to my second job, I was
Speaker 1: very nervous about kids finding out that I was gay.
Speaker 1: And I have some advice for LGBTQ plus teachers, which is, y'all,
Speaker 1: it's a glass closet. The kids always know who the
Speaker 1: queer teacher is. And sure enough I had a student
Speaker 1: who was gay come to me and come out and
Speaker 1: say to me he was thinking of killing himself. I
Speaker 1: was twenty four, I had no training, so the first
Speaker 1: thing I could think of to say was, let's go
Speaker 1: see accounts. And he said to me something that changed
Speaker 1: the course of my life. He said, why shouldn't I
Speaker 1: kill myself? My life isn't worth saving anyway. And that
Speaker 1: took me back to my own adolescence in North Carolina,
Speaker 1: where I had tried to kill myself when I was sixteen,
Speaker 1: and I made myself a little promise that day that
Speaker 1: whatever I did with the rest of my life, I
Speaker 1: would fight to make sure that the next generation of
Speaker 1: queer kids did not grow up feeling like that. So
Speaker 1: a few weeks later, on November tenth, nineteen eighty eight,
Speaker 1: I got up in a school assembly and I came
Speaker 1: out to the entire school all at once, November tenth,
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eight, was a very different time. Ronald Reagan
Speaker 1: was president. As I mentioned, only one state protected you
Speaker 1: from discrimination based on sexual orientation, so what I did
Speaker 1: was highly unusual for that time. But the next day,
Speaker 1: a young girl stormed into my office and said, I
Speaker 1: want to start a club to find homophobia. I was
Speaker 1: kind of like, hello, nice to meet you, because she
Speaker 1: wasn't my student or anything. And I said, tell me
Speaker 1: why you care so much about this, and she said, oh,
Speaker 1: that's easy. My mother's a lesbian and I'm tired of
Speaker 1: hearing my family get put down around this school. Naive,
Speaker 1: little twenty four year old me never thought about the
Speaker 1: fact that there might be queer parents. And I said,
Speaker 1: what do you want to call this club? And she said,
Speaker 1: I don't know. You're gay and I'm straight. Let's call
Speaker 1: it the Gay Straight Alliance.
Speaker 3: Kevin and Matt Student ended up starting the country's first
Speaker 3: ever gay straight alliance, a first step in a growing
Speaker 3: momentum in both his life and the country.
Speaker 1: That was the first gay straight alliance in the world.
Speaker 1: November eleventh, nineteen eighty eight, conquered Massachusetts, and it just
Speaker 1: got a snowballed from there I ended up creating an
Speaker 1: organization called GLISTEN, the Gay, Lesbian is Straight Education Network,
Speaker 1: which worked to address anti queer bias and schools. In
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety I ended up becoming its first executive director
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety four. I led it for fourteen years,
Speaker 1: and I eventually became Assistant Secretary of Education for President Obama,
Speaker 1: where I led a national campaign to address bullying in schools.
Speaker 1: And I'm proud to say that when President Obama left
Speaker 1: office in twenty sixteen, bullying was at the lowest level
Speaker 1: it had ever been since we had started recording the
Speaker 1: phenomenon in American schools. So for thirty years, I really
Speaker 1: dedicated my life to trying to help young people. That
Speaker 1: was really my mission. And happy ending to the story,
Speaker 1: just you know the young man who wanted to kill himself.
Speaker 1: He lives in Brooklyn now with his husband. They are
Speaker 1: rehabilitating a brownstone. What could be gayer than that? And
Speaker 1: I went to their wedding about fifteen years ago. And
Speaker 1: the young woman who wanted to start the GSA, She's
Speaker 1: married to a man, she has two kids. She lives
Speaker 1: in Boston, and when I visited her a few years ago,
Speaker 1: her lesbian mother, baby's at the grandkids, so everybody has
Speaker 1: a happy ending to the story.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, that is incredible. I mean, what has
Speaker 3: it been like to have had such a foundational role
Speaker 3: in the community's history, like moving it forward? Like personally,
Speaker 3: what is that like for you?
Speaker 1: You know, I would call myself the accidental activist. I
Speaker 1: wasn't planning. I had no career plan of any kind.
Speaker 1: I just saw there was a problem and I wanted
Speaker 1: to do something about it. It was pretty simple, you know.
Speaker 1: I've been very fortunate to be given some incredible opportunities
Speaker 1: to make a difference in the world. You know, when
Speaker 1: I graduated from college, my mother pulled me aside and
Speaker 1: whispered her favorite Bible verse in my ear. My parents
Speaker 1: were fundamentalist Christians, and she said, Kevin, to who much
Speaker 1: has been given, much will be expected. And I was
Speaker 1: very aware, having been the first person in my family
Speaker 1: to ever have the privilege of getting a college degree,
Speaker 1: that I had a moral obligation to do what I
Speaker 1: can to try to make the world better with it.
Speaker 1: That it was more than just about going out out
Speaker 1: there making some money. So I've been afforded some great
Speaker 1: opportunities to do that, and I'm very grateful for them.
Speaker 3: From bathrooms to youth sports to who gets to become
Speaker 3: a teacher, education in schools have served as a battleground
Speaker 3: for many of the fights regarding a quality. Kevin says,
Speaker 3: using and exploiting people's fears to hold back progress is
Speaker 3: nothing new. Something that I see as a pattern in
Speaker 3: your work and that I see today is the way
Speaker 3: that education schools has been this battleground for LGBTQ folks
Speaker 3: and the people who support them. It seems like that
Speaker 3: was a part of your experience, and unfortunately it's something
Speaker 3: that we're still seeing today.
Speaker 2: Why do you think that?
Speaker 1: Is great question, and I want to step back and
Speaker 1: put this into an even broader historical context. Whenever the
Speaker 1: dominant culture wants to panic people about a minority group,
Speaker 1: what they say is they're after your kids. Supposedly Jews
Speaker 1: drank the blood of Christian children and mis justified programs.
Speaker 1: Supposedly black men were after little white girls and this
Speaker 1: justified lynching. Supposedly the Roma stole children and this justified
Speaker 1: putting them in concentration camps during the Nazi era, and
Speaker 1: supposedly LGBTQ plus people recruit or to use today's terminology,
Speaker 1: they groom people to be LGBTQ plus. So this is
Speaker 1: a very effective tactic because people get very irrational if
Speaker 1: they think their children are at risk, and I understand that.
Speaker 1: You know, if you think somebody's gonna hurt your kid,
Speaker 1: you're gonna be pretty mad pretty fast. And the reason
Speaker 1: why our opponents keep digging this trope out and using
Speaker 1: it over and over again is because it's effective.
Speaker 3: We've been here before in the seventies in Florida, after
Speaker 3: a local ordinates granted gay people housing and employment protections,
Speaker 3: meaning gay teachers couldn't be fired, Anita Bryant, a singer,
Speaker 3: pageant queen and brand ambassador for the Florida Citrus Commission,
Speaker 3: organized the Save Our Children campaign, which baselessly smeared LGBTQ
Speaker 3: people as threats to children. Many cited as the first
Speaker 3: organized opposition to the gay rights movement.
Speaker 1: When I was a kid, there was a named Anita
Speaker 1: Bryant who was a beauty pageant queen, and she led
Speaker 1: a campaign called Save Our Children, which led to the
Speaker 1: repeal of the first LGBTQ plus rights ordinances that have
Speaker 1: been passed in the seventies and eighties, and we're really
Speaker 1: seeing that history replay again today. They're over a dozen
Speaker 1: states now that have some version of a so called
Speaker 1: don't say gay or trans law. It's not just Florida,
Speaker 1: it's many states. And we're seeing all of this rhetoric
Speaker 1: revived about how LGBTQ plus people groom and recruit and
Speaker 1: they do it because it works. It's cynical. The fact
Speaker 1: of the matter is the people who really abuse children
Speaker 1: are almost exclusively heterosexual men, usually family members. Those are
Speaker 1: the people who have used children. But that's not the
Speaker 1: myth that's being put out there.
Speaker 3: And I know that LAMBA a lot of the big
Speaker 3: wins and cases that you all take on do involve youth.
Speaker 2: Can you tell me about some of those?
Speaker 1: Sure, LAMBA legals been involved fighting for LGBTQ plus students
Speaker 1: since we were founded fifty years ago in nineteen seventy three.
Speaker 1: In fact, one of our very first cases in nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy four, we helped win the right of the University
Speaker 1: of New Hampshire gay student group to meet on campus,
Speaker 1: which really led to the proliferation of queer student clubs
Speaker 1: on college campuses nationwide. In nineteen ninety six, we went
Speaker 1: to court on behalf of a young man named Jamie Nabusney.
Speaker 1: Jamie was a high school student in Ashon, Wisconsin. He
Speaker 1: was repeatedly beaten up and harassed in school. His family
Speaker 1: complained to the school, the school did nothing, So finally
Speaker 1: we took him on and we won the first federal
Speaker 1: lawsuit holding schools accountable for failing to protect LGBTQ plus
Speaker 1: students from bullying and harassment. And in two thousand we
Speaker 1: represented Anthony Colleen, a student in the Orange County Unified
Speaker 1: School District in southern California, who was told that he
Speaker 1: could not have a gay Straight Alliance at GSA in
Speaker 1: his school, and we won the federal right of students
Speaker 1: to have GSAs in their schools. So Lamb Beligo has
Speaker 1: been fighting for young people literally from the start. I'm
Speaker 1: sorry to say that we are having to do so
Speaker 1: again today in twenty twenty three. Unfortunately, as they say,
Speaker 1: people who know history are doomed to watch idiots repeat it,
Speaker 1: and we are indeed seeing that history being repeated. We
Speaker 1: are in court against the Don't Say gay or trans
Speaker 1: law in Florida. We will be going to court in
Speaker 1: the other states to challenge that law. We're in court
Speaker 1: in multiple states trying to defend the rights of trans
Speaker 1: youth to get gender affirming care. The fight to ensure
Speaker 1: the safety and well being of LGBTQ plus youth is
Speaker 1: unfortunately not over, even though we've been fighting it for
Speaker 1: five decades.
Speaker 3: I mean, I it's one of those things that I
Speaker 3: wish this I wish this was were not fights that
Speaker 3: you all had to take up.
Speaker 2: I wish that we you know, when you.
Speaker 3: Were first starting these fights, when you were younger, Like,
Speaker 3: did you ever think that in twenty twenty three your
Speaker 3: work would still be so important and so relevant.
Speaker 1: Yes and no. Yes. In that there's a great quote
Speaker 1: by Kreta Scott King which I really like. She said,
Speaker 1: freedom is never really won. You earn it and win
Speaker 1: it in every generation. And I think that's true. I
Speaker 1: do want to say that things are vastly better than
Speaker 1: they were the year I was born. In nineteen sixty three,
Speaker 1: it was illegal to be gay in forty nine states.
Speaker 1: I don't want to paint a picture of complete gloom
Speaker 1: and doom. We have made serious progress, but like as
Speaker 1: King said, you have to earn it and win it
Speaker 1: in every generation. Our opponents, I jokingly say, sometimes are
Speaker 1: like the terminator. They just keep coming, they never stop.
Speaker 1: And it was Thomas Jefferson who said the price of
Speaker 1: liberty is eternal vigilance. We have to be vigilant. As
Speaker 1: we saw with the Dobbs decision in the Supreme Court
Speaker 1: last year, progress can be reversed very dramatically in this country.
Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy three, the same year Land of Legal
Speaker 1: was founded, the right of people to control their own
Speaker 1: bodies was granted by the Supreme Court in Roe versus Wade,
Speaker 1: and our opponents fought for forty nine years and finally
Speaker 1: got that right taken away last year. So we can
Speaker 1: never let down our guard because our opponents are determined
Speaker 1: to impose their values on everyone else. And I really
Speaker 1: think that's what this whole fight is about. It's bigger
Speaker 1: than abortion. It's bigger than gender affirm care, it's bigger
Speaker 1: than don't say gay. It's about this. We theoretically our
Speaker 1: country where everyone has the right of life, liberty, and
Speaker 1: the pursuit of happiness at lamb to legal. We believe
Speaker 1: that every person has self determination, that they should decide
Speaker 1: what to do with their lives, and that so long
Speaker 1: as they're not hurting anybody else, that's up to them.
Speaker 1: Our opponents fundamentally do not believe that. They believe that
Speaker 1: they have the right to tell other people how to
Speaker 1: live their lives. You know, there's that great bumperstick, or
Speaker 1: don't like abortion, don't have one, you know, But our
Speaker 1: opponents think they have the right to tell other people
Speaker 1: how to live their lives, what to do with their bodies,
Speaker 1: whether it be abortion or gender affirming care, what they
Speaker 1: can say in schools, whether they can perform in drag
Speaker 1: or not. They believe they have the right to tell
Speaker 1: people how to live their lives. And legal we believe
Speaker 1: that everybody has the right to live their life according
Speaker 1: to their own values. Like I said, so long as
Speaker 1: they're not hurting anybody else. And that's the fundamental fight
Speaker 1: we're in in America right now, is is there really
Speaker 1: going to be life liberty and the pursuit of happiness
Speaker 1: for every individual in America, or as sadly has been
Speaker 1: the case throughout our history, is it only going to
Speaker 1: be some people that get it? You know, though some
Speaker 1: people have traditionally been white, they've been male, they've been Christian,
Speaker 1: they've been able bodied they've been cisgendered, they've been heterosexual.
Speaker 1: Those are the people who get to choose how to
Speaker 1: live their lives, and everybody else is in various ways
Speaker 1: been restricted throughout American history. We're going to keep fighting
Speaker 1: until there's no restrictions. That's what we're here to do.
Speaker 3: I'm so glad that you put it that way, and
Speaker 3: I think it can be kind of tough to step
Speaker 3: back and see the forest for the trees a little bit,
Speaker 3: because you know, it's not about one piece of legislation
Speaker 3: or one book that was banned or what like. It
Speaker 3: is I believe fundamentally about whether people can live their
Speaker 3: lives the way that they want to and it but
Speaker 3: it sometimes it feels like that value is under attack
Speaker 3: from so many different ways, so many different pressure points,
Speaker 3: whether it's reproductive care or gender refirming care, or the
Speaker 3: ability to read what you want to perform in drags.
Speaker 3: How do we how do we like stay in the
Speaker 3: fight with that understanding that even though we might be
Speaker 3: fighting for, you know, to fight one piece of legislation today,
Speaker 3: it's really about a broader attack on our rights and equality.
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting the term intersectionality gets thrown around
Speaker 1: a lot nowadays, but I really think we need to
Speaker 1: understand that all these fights are truly intersectional. When I
Speaker 1: was a kid, there used to be an ad campaign
Speaker 1: for lazed potato chips, and then they used to say
Speaker 1: that you can't stop with just one bigots don't stop
Speaker 1: with just one group. They come after BIPOC people, they
Speaker 1: come after women, they come after LGBTQ plus people. You
Speaker 1: know they're they're trying to restrict the rights of many
Speaker 1: groups of society because they fundamentally think they have the
Speaker 1: right to tell us how to live our lives. And
Speaker 1: we need to unite and recognize that all these fights
Speaker 1: are connected. There's no such thing as a single issue
Speaker 1: human being. All of us are complex people with multiple identities,
Speaker 1: and we need to build a movement that recognizes that
Speaker 1: all these issues are connected. And we need to stand
Speaker 1: locked arm in arm to prevent this assault, which is
Speaker 1: really fundamentally about taking away people's rights to live their
Speaker 1: lives as they see fit.
Speaker 3: Let's take a quick break.
Speaker 2: At our back.
Speaker 3: Times are tough, but it's not without wins, and it's
Speaker 3: not without hope. And the forces organizing against justice and
Speaker 3: equality to forget that they want us to feel like
Speaker 3: there is no reason for hope hopelessness as a kind
Speaker 3: of disinformation campaign. Something you mentioned earlier that I want
Speaker 3: to go back to that I think is really important
Speaker 3: is that you know, when you're talking about attacks on
Speaker 3: marginalized communities, oftentimes the stories of our.
Speaker 2: Communities are very doom and gloom.
Speaker 3: And I completely understand why that is, because we are
Speaker 3: facing like, very real attacks.
Speaker 2: But it's not all bad.
Speaker 3: And I know that LAMB Illegal has had some recent
Speaker 3: wins lately. Can you tell me about those?
Speaker 1: Sure? Uh, First of all, if you look at where
Speaker 1: we started with LAMB Legal fifty years ago. When we
Speaker 1: were found in nineteen seventy three, being gay was illegal
Speaker 1: in forty three states. Cross dressing was as they called
Speaker 1: it back then, was illegal, So it was literally illegal
Speaker 1: for trans people to express their gender. Homosexuality was a
Speaker 1: mental illness for which you could be put in an
Speaker 1: institution against your will. And we fought and we fought
Speaker 1: and we fought. It took us thirty years, but we
Speaker 1: got the laws that criminalized same sex relationships struck down
Speaker 1: at the Supreme Court in two thousand and three in
Speaker 1: Lawrens versus Texas. We fought for over twenty years, and
Speaker 1: we run the right of same sex couples to marry
Speaker 1: in twenty fifteen at the Supreme Court in Obergefell versus Hodges.
Speaker 1: We fought for twenty years and we won the right
Speaker 1: of people to be protected from being fired from their
Speaker 1: job based on their sexual orientation or their gender identity
Speaker 1: at the Supreme Court in twenty twenty. We have made
Speaker 1: enormous progress and we're still winning. You know, I know
Speaker 1: this is a very dark time. Nearly six hundred anti
Speaker 1: LGBTQ plus bills were proposed this year and in forty
Speaker 1: seven different states. The case you're curious, the only states
Speaker 1: that didn't consider such a bill this year were Illinois,
Speaker 1: New York, and Delaware. There was one in every other
Speaker 1: state in the country. And I'll tell you a very
Speaker 1: specific story which I'm very excited about, and this is
Speaker 1: about a middle school girl in West Virginia named Becky
Speaker 1: Pepper Jackson. Becky was in sixth grade when the state
Speaker 1: of West Virginia banned young trans people from participating in
Speaker 1: school sports. So we went to court. We represented Becky,
Speaker 1: and we won at the district court, and Becky got
Speaker 1: to be on their middle school cross country team. Then
Speaker 1: the state appealed to the Circuit Court, and we went
Speaker 1: to the circuit court and we won again, and Becky
Speaker 1: got to be on her middle school cross country team again.
Speaker 1: And then they appealed to the Supreme Court in April
Speaker 1: of this year, and we went to the Supreme Court
Speaker 1: and the justices voted with US seven to two. And
Speaker 1: Becky's now in eighth grade and she's on the cross
Speaker 1: country team. So I know we right now, it's easy
Speaker 1: to feel defeated, but it's also important to recognize we're
Speaker 1: still winning. Are we going to win every fight? Absolutely not.
Speaker 1: That's not how social justice has won. You win some,
Speaker 1: you lose some. But I am confident in the inn
Speaker 1: We're going to win this fight. And the reason I'm
Speaker 1: confident is I believe most Americans agree with us. Most
Speaker 1: Americans don't want somebody else to tell them how to
Speaker 1: live their life. And if we understand that, that's what
Speaker 1: our opponents are trying to do. They're trying to win
Speaker 1: the right to impose their belief system on people they
Speaker 1: don't like and they don't agree with. I think most
Speaker 1: Americans are going to say, Nope, I'm not down for that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder.
Speaker 3: I mean, I completely agree, I'm vigorously nodding in my head.
Speaker 2: But one of the things I wonder is I have a.
Speaker 3: Theory that the other side they know that what they're
Speaker 3: proposing is unpopular. They know that it is wildly out
Speaker 3: of sack with what most Americans want. I think that's
Speaker 3: why they have to lie. They have to lie about
Speaker 3: trans youth, they have to lie about gender reforming care.
Speaker 3: If they were confident that people were on their side,
Speaker 3: they would not have to misrepresent what their side is.
Speaker 3: And so to me, that seems to suggest that, like
Speaker 3: they know what they're selling, people aren't really buying. Do
Speaker 3: you ever have that sense?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think what they're doing is they're taking advantage
Speaker 1: of people's ignorance on the issues. And let me be
Speaker 1: very specific, over seventy percent of Americans think they've never
Speaker 1: met a trans person. They probably have, they just didn't know.
Speaker 1: But when you have over seventy percent of the people
Speaker 1: who literally don't know a trans person, it's easy to
Speaker 1: spread lies and misinformation. I think our other side is
Speaker 1: very clever and very strategic. They pick things, they pick
Speaker 1: the most vulnerable point, and they go after that. Like
Speaker 1: let's take another example critical race theory. The vast majority
Speaker 1: of Americans have absolutely no idea what critical race theory is,
Speaker 1: but they've managed to make it into this bogey man
Speaker 1: that's so evil and so bad. So what they do
Speaker 1: is they take advantage of people's ignorance. And I know,
Speaker 1: say ignorance as a pejorative, you could say in a
Speaker 1: different way, which is lack of familiar people. I think
Speaker 1: most Americans. I have an interesting conversation with an elderly
Speaker 1: friend of mine recently and she said, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't understand why people say black lives matter. Don't all
Speaker 1: lives matter? And I said, well, Marcia, if you look
Speaker 1: at American history, throughout American history, black lives have mattered less.
Speaker 1: We were comfortable enslaving black people, we were comfortable segregating
Speaker 1: black people, we were comfortable lynching black people. So you
Speaker 1: need to say specifically that black lives matter, because throughout
Speaker 1: American history they've been treated like they don't matter. And
Speaker 1: she was like, I never thought of it that way.
Speaker 1: That makes perfect sense. And we have a Black Lives
Speaker 1: Matter vigil in my town every Sunday at two o'clock.
Speaker 1: She now comes to the visual this seventy five year
Speaker 1: old that'sis gender heterosexual, white woman comes to the visual
Speaker 1: every Sunday now because she gets it now. So I
Speaker 1: think one of the things we need to recommit ourselves
Speaker 1: to do as move is to educate people. I think
Speaker 1: there is a hardcore segment of American society that is
Speaker 1: very bigoted and that will never change its mind. But
Speaker 1: I think there's a much larger segment that is unfamiliar
Speaker 1: and ignorant of the issues, and that if we take
Speaker 1: the time to educate them, and we take the time
Speaker 1: to explain how what our opponents are doing is really
Speaker 1: against the fundamental principle of self determination. Nobody likes being
Speaker 1: told how they can live their life, and I think
Speaker 1: the vast majority of Americans can end up siding with us.
Speaker 2: More.
Speaker 3: After a quick break, let's get right back into it.
Speaker 3: I agree with Kevin that most Americans would probably agree
Speaker 3: that nobody should be told how to live their lives.
Speaker 3: But at in a media and digital ecosystem that is
Speaker 3: invested in turning up the temperature on these conversations and
Speaker 3: amplifying and incentivizing the worst actors, and it certainly doesn't
Speaker 3: always feel that way. That's such a positive, like forward looking,
Speaker 3: affirming perspective. And I do think this is why the
Speaker 3: other side, Like, I think that they are really good
Speaker 3: at exploiting the people who maybe just don't know a
Speaker 3: lot about it and don't spend a lot of time
Speaker 3: thinking about it, and then turning the temperature up on
Speaker 3: the conversation, you know, pushing at those tension points and
Speaker 3: those fractures and those things that they know we're going
Speaker 3: to get people kind of like riled up or to
Speaker 3: have a big reaction when like, it's just we don't
Speaker 3: really I don't think that we have a it's difficult
Speaker 3: to have these conversations when so often they are happening
Speaker 3: along these like existing tension points and pressure points that
Speaker 3: really inflame the conversation.
Speaker 1: Well, that's their whole strategy. Their strategy is to divide
Speaker 1: and conquer and to take advantage of things where people
Speaker 1: feel vulnerable and confused and unaware. And I will make
Speaker 1: this prediction, particularly on trans issues, what they're doing is
Speaker 1: going to backfire. And the reason it's going to backfire
Speaker 1: is I wrote a textbook on LGBTQ plus history thirty
Speaker 1: years ago for high school students, and I said, there's
Speaker 1: two laws of LGBTQ plus history. Number one, the more
Speaker 1: visible we are, the more we get attacked. And number two,
Speaker 1: the more we are attacked, the more people come out
Speaker 1: and fight back. As America, as more and more trans
Speaker 1: people are coming out and parents of trans people are
Speaker 1: speaking up and family of trans people are speaking up,
Speaker 1: more and more Americans are coming to know trans people,
Speaker 1: and the end, that's why we're going to win. Because
Speaker 1: the number one most effective way to reduce bigotry towards
Speaker 1: LGBTQ plus people has been shown over and over and
Speaker 1: over again is if you actually know an LGBTQ plus
Speaker 1: person personally. And the number of people who say they
Speaker 1: don't know a trans person is going to keep dropping.
Speaker 1: And the more people realize that trans people are their
Speaker 1: neighbors and their family members and their coworkers and our
Speaker 1: human beings like everyone else, these attacks will resonate less
Speaker 1: and less and less. So what I'm thinking right now
Speaker 1: is we just need to hold the line. We need
Speaker 1: to hold the line because the next generation is going
Speaker 1: to be very different. The Gallop Organization found last year
Speaker 1: that one in five Generation Z members identifies as LGBTQ plus.
Speaker 1: One in five. This generation is not going to have
Speaker 1: this nonsense. So it's up to folks in my generation
Speaker 1: to hold the line basically until the next generation comes
Speaker 1: into the rescue. And I really believe that's what's going
Speaker 1: to happen. So I think what they're doing short term
Speaker 1: may be very effective. I mean, let's be honest, they've
Speaker 1: passed laws in over twenty states this year. It's been
Speaker 1: bad LAMBA legals role is the community's last line of defense.
Speaker 1: We can't stop them from passing these laws in places
Speaker 1: like North Carolina where I grew up. We don't have
Speaker 1: the votes, but we can get them struck down in court,
Speaker 1: and that's what we do every day. And if we
Speaker 1: can hold the line until the next generation assumes the
Speaker 1: leadership of this country, I think we're going to win.
Speaker 2: How do you see all of these issues playing out
Speaker 2: in the upcoming election?
Speaker 1: Oh boy?
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 1: I talk to a lot of folks who are younger
Speaker 1: or for a variety of reasons, have been disenfranchised throughout history,
Speaker 1: and they say, my vote doesn't matter. And I'll say
Speaker 1: to them, you know what, the best evidence is that
Speaker 1: your vote matters. The Republicans are trying to take it
Speaker 1: away from you. If your vote didn't matter, why would
Speaker 1: they be trying so hard to stop you from voting?
Speaker 1: So I absolutely think because remember, if you add up
Speaker 1: the so called minorities in America, BIPOC folks, women, LGBTQ
Speaker 1: plus people, and obviously there's people who are all of
Speaker 1: those things. We're the majority. So we have to educate
Speaker 1: and mobilize the people who agree with us and get
Speaker 1: them out to vote. And if we do that, we're
Speaker 1: going to win.
Speaker 3: But if you had a crystal ball and you're looking
Speaker 3: into the future, what would you like for the future
Speaker 3: to be like for our communities? What would you like
Speaker 3: to see for our communities ten years down the line,
Speaker 3: twenty years down the line.
Speaker 1: Oh boy. First, of all, communities is very complicated. There's many, many,
Speaker 1: many different communities, so that's a very complicated question. But
Speaker 1: I guess my dream. I'll speak specifically about LGBTQ plus people.
Speaker 1: I would like to dream that someday a same SIS
Speaker 1: couple could walk down the street in any town in
Speaker 1: any state anywhere in America and not even think about
Speaker 1: whether or not they're safe. They don't think about it.
Speaker 1: I would like to see, in fact, the whole notion
Speaker 1: of coming out go away, because I would like to
Speaker 1: live in a world in which people just grow up
Speaker 1: and they are who they are, and you don't need
Speaker 1: to come out as trans or come out as gay,
Speaker 1: because from day one, you're free to be who you
Speaker 1: want to be, and nobody thinks it's odd if you
Speaker 1: are LGBTQ plus that's just well, that's just who you are.
Speaker 1: That would be the ultimate side of victory to me
Speaker 1: is if the notion of coming out went away because
Speaker 1: people were just free to be who they authentically were
Speaker 1: from day one and they didn't need to come out
Speaker 1: at some point in their life.
Speaker 2: That's so beautiful, Like, what a beautiful vision for the future.
Speaker 2: I really like.
Speaker 3: That time when things can feel so understandably heavy and tough,
Speaker 3: leaning into joy can be a form of resistance. Our
Speaker 3: opponents want us trained and defeated, so abundance, love, happiness,
Speaker 3: and joy can be defiant. We talked about how these
Speaker 3: fights are long and how it's you know, there's so
Speaker 3: many different attacks out there. But something that I like
Speaker 3: about Lambda is that you all do a great job
Speaker 3: of connecting to joy and resilience and abundance. Right like
Speaker 3: you party, you just had your big fifty year celebration.
Speaker 3: How do you stay connected to that joy and that
Speaker 3: abundance in these fights?
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, that's a great question.
Speaker 2: For me.
Speaker 1: My big hero was Congressman John Lewis, and Congressman John
Speaker 1: Lewis went through a lot. He literally had his skull
Speaker 1: fractures on the Edmund Pettis Bridge and Selma in the
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties marching for voting rights. But I never ever
Speaker 1: ever saw Congressman Lewis depressed because of two reasons. I
Speaker 1: asked them this once. I said, how are you always
Speaker 1: so cheerful? And he said, because, Kevin, I believe in
Speaker 1: the beloved community, and that's what we're working for, a
Speaker 1: community where we each love each other. And I'll never
Speaker 1: forget him saying that to me. And I think that,
Speaker 1: in the end is what we need to realize. What
Speaker 1: our opponents would like to do is to convince us
Speaker 1: that we can't make a difference, is to convince us
Speaker 1: that the world cannot change, is to convince us that
Speaker 1: this kind of crap is inevitable. They're lying to us,
Speaker 1: we can change the world, and we can have fun
Speaker 1: while we're doing it. So don't let them take away
Speaker 1: your joy. Don't let them take away your hope. Don't
Speaker 1: let them take away your sense of power, because if
Speaker 1: they succeed in doing that, things will indeed never change.
Speaker 1: So I'm not going to give them the satisfaction. I'm
Speaker 1: not doing it. I am going to dance and I'm
Speaker 1: going to tell jokes and I'm going to have fun
Speaker 1: while I'm fighting for justice, and I urge you all
Speaker 1: do the same.
Speaker 3: I know folks are fired up, like I'm on the
Speaker 3: fridship tears listening to you talk about this. For folks
Speaker 3: who want to get involved, what should they be doing?
Speaker 3: Where can they go to find out more?
Speaker 1: Well, okay, let me say give two answer to that.
Speaker 1: First of all, obviously, if you want to learn about
Speaker 1: LAMBDA Legal, go to lambdillegal dot org. But I want
Speaker 1: to remind people, no matter who you are in the world,
Speaker 1: you have four assets your voice, your vote, your time,
Speaker 1: and your money. And what I mean by that is,
Speaker 1: first of all, your voice. When I worked in Washington,
Speaker 1: I learned that there's an intern in every congressional office
Speaker 1: who tallies up how many calls they got that day
Speaker 1: and what they were about, and they report it to
Speaker 1: the congress person. Speak up, call your congress person, March.
Speaker 1: Use your voice. Secondly, vote vote in every election. Did
Speaker 1: you know that the average school board election turnout is
Speaker 1: only fifteen percent. That means that if you can get
Speaker 1: eight percent of the voters in your community to vote
Speaker 1: for you, because that's a majority of fifteen percent, or
Speaker 1: approximately one out of every thirteen people, you get to
Speaker 1: run the schools in your community. So vote every time,
Speaker 1: not just in the presidentials. Your time. I know a
Speaker 1: lot of people work in multiple jobs. They may not
Speaker 1: have a lot of time. But whatever time you have,
Speaker 1: get involved. Volunteer your time, get involved with your local
Speaker 1: community center or a local political organization. And then, finally,
Speaker 1: if you're lucky enough to have a few extra dollars,
Speaker 1: remember that over seventy percent of charitable giving in this
Speaker 1: country comes from individuals, people like you and me. People
Speaker 1: think corporations and foundations pay for charity. That's bs average
Speaker 1: people pay for charity in this country. So if you
Speaker 1: can spare a few dollars, give it to an organization
Speaker 1: you really believe in. So use your voice, your vote,
Speaker 1: your time, and your money. And we'd love to welcome
Speaker 1: you to the Land of Legal Family. If you want
Speaker 1: to go to Landollegal dot org.
Speaker 3: I like how you put that, because somebody might not
Speaker 3: have a lot of money, but they might have a
Speaker 3: big platform. They might not have a lot of time,
Speaker 3: but they can vote. Like you can always find your
Speaker 3: way to help and your way to feel like you're
Speaker 3: really leaning into the fight.
Speaker 1: Thank you. I really believe that if we all do
Speaker 1: what we can do, we're going to be okay. And
Speaker 1: everybody can do something. There's a saying in the Talmud,
Speaker 1: the Jewish holy book, that you are not responsible for
Speaker 1: saving the world, but neither are you exempt from doing
Speaker 1: your part to do so. So no one of us.
Speaker 1: I don't believe in the so called great nand theory
Speaker 1: of history where like there's like a big white savior
Speaker 1: who rides to the rescue. That's bs. That's not how
Speaker 1: change happens. Change happens because everyday people stand up and
Speaker 1: say I'm not going to do this anymore. No, And
Speaker 1: if we all do our part, and some may be voting,
Speaker 1: some may be giving money, some may be volunteering their time,
Speaker 1: some may be marching, but figure out what your part is.
Speaker 1: When Trump got elected, people ask me what should I do?
Speaker 1: What should I do? I said, what are you good at?
Speaker 1: If you're an artist, make great art. If you're rich,
Speaker 1: write a check. Whatever you've got, use it. And we've
Speaker 1: all got different gifts, and we've all got different talents.
Speaker 1: And if we just use our own unique gifts together
Speaker 1: collectively as a movement, we will win this.
Speaker 2: I believe that we will win.
Speaker 3: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or
Speaker 3: just want to say hi? You can reach us at
Speaker 3: Hello at tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts
Speaker 3: for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No
Speaker 3: Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod.
Speaker 3: It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative Jonathan Strickland
Speaker 3: is our executive producer. Tarry Harrison is our producer and
Speaker 3: sound engineer. Michael Almado is our contributing producer. I'm your host,
Speaker 3: Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate
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Speaker 2: Who w