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Speaker 1: Don't let them take away your joy, don't let them

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Speaker 1: take away your hope, don't let them take away your

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Speaker 1: sense of power, because if they succeed in doing that,

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Speaker 1: things will indeed ever change.

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Speaker 2: There Are No Girls on the Internet.

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Speaker 3: As a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget

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Speaker 3: Todd and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.

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Speaker 3: October eleventh is National Coming Out Day. We spend a

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Speaker 3: lot of time on this podcast talking about the very

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Speaker 3: real threats facing the LGBTQ plus community, and while there

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Speaker 3: are many fights ahead, it's important not to lose sight

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Speaker 3: of all the wins we've had for quality, because we're winning.

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Speaker 3: Just asked Kevin Jennings.

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Speaker 1: My name is Kevin Jennings, I use hee him pronouns,

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Speaker 1: and I'm the CEO of LAMB I Llegal, which is

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Speaker 1: America's oldest LGBTQ plus legal right organization LAMBDA Legals.

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Speaker 3: Lawyers have won precedent setting civil rights cases on everything

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Speaker 3: from marriage equality to expressions of gender identity to healthcare discrimination.

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Speaker 3: But before Kevin was a CEO of the oldest LGBTQ

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Speaker 3: legal rights organization in the country, he was an educator

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Speaker 3: just worried about his students. So, Kevin, you actually started

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Speaker 3: your career as an educator, right, like fighting discrimination for educators.

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Speaker 2: Tell me about that.

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Speaker 1: Sure. So I began my career as a high school

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Speaker 1: teacher in nineteen eighty five. I'm a first generation college graduate.

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Speaker 1: I was the first person in my family to go

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Speaker 1: to college, and so I wanted to go back into

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Speaker 1: the classroom and try to help young people have the

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Speaker 1: opportunities that I had had, which no one else in

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Speaker 1: my family had ever had before. My father only had

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Speaker 1: a tenth grade education, my mother only had a sixth

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Speaker 1: grade education. We were very poor growing up. I grew

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Speaker 1: up in a trailer park on an unpaved dirt road

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Speaker 1: and unincorporated town in North Carolina, and I was raised

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Speaker 1: very much with this philosophy of giving back. So I

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Speaker 1: became a teacher and I lost my first job because

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Speaker 1: I was gay in Providence, Rhode Island. You have to remember,

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Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty five, there was only one state that

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Speaker 1: band discrimination based on sexual orientation, and for people who

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Speaker 1: don't know, it was Wisconsin, which comes as a surprise

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Speaker 1: to many people. So if you lost your job because

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Speaker 1: you were gay, there was nothing you could do about it.

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Speaker 1: So when I went to my second job, I was

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Speaker 1: very nervous about kids finding out that I was gay.

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Speaker 1: And I have some advice for LGBTQ plus teachers, which is, y'all,

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Speaker 1: it's a glass closet. The kids always know who the

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Speaker 1: queer teacher is. And sure enough I had a student

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Speaker 1: who was gay come to me and come out and

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Speaker 1: say to me he was thinking of killing himself. I

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Speaker 1: was twenty four, I had no training, so the first

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Speaker 1: thing I could think of to say was, let's go

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Speaker 1: see accounts. And he said to me something that changed

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Speaker 1: the course of my life. He said, why shouldn't I

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Speaker 1: kill myself? My life isn't worth saving anyway. And that

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Speaker 1: took me back to my own adolescence in North Carolina,

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Speaker 1: where I had tried to kill myself when I was sixteen,

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Speaker 1: and I made myself a little promise that day that

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Speaker 1: whatever I did with the rest of my life, I

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Speaker 1: would fight to make sure that the next generation of

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Speaker 1: queer kids did not grow up feeling like that. So

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Speaker 1: a few weeks later, on November tenth, nineteen eighty eight,

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Speaker 1: I got up in a school assembly and I came

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Speaker 1: out to the entire school all at once, November tenth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eight, was a very different time. Ronald Reagan

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Speaker 1: was president. As I mentioned, only one state protected you

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Speaker 1: from discrimination based on sexual orientation, so what I did

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Speaker 1: was highly unusual for that time. But the next day,

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Speaker 1: a young girl stormed into my office and said, I

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Speaker 1: want to start a club to find homophobia. I was

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Speaker 1: kind of like, hello, nice to meet you, because she

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Speaker 1: wasn't my student or anything. And I said, tell me

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Speaker 1: why you care so much about this, and she said, oh,

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Speaker 1: that's easy. My mother's a lesbian and I'm tired of

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Speaker 1: hearing my family get put down around this school. Naive,

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Speaker 1: little twenty four year old me never thought about the

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Speaker 1: fact that there might be queer parents. And I said,

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Speaker 1: what do you want to call this club? And she said,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. You're gay and I'm straight. Let's call

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Speaker 1: it the Gay Straight Alliance.

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Speaker 3: Kevin and Matt Student ended up starting the country's first

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Speaker 3: ever gay straight alliance, a first step in a growing

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Speaker 3: momentum in both his life and the country.

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Speaker 1: That was the first gay straight alliance in the world.

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Speaker 1: November eleventh, nineteen eighty eight, conquered Massachusetts, and it just

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Speaker 1: got a snowballed from there I ended up creating an

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Speaker 1: organization called GLISTEN, the Gay, Lesbian is Straight Education Network,

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Speaker 1: which worked to address anti queer bias and schools. In

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety I ended up becoming its first executive director

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Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety four. I led it for fourteen years,

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Speaker 1: and I eventually became Assistant Secretary of Education for President Obama,

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Speaker 1: where I led a national campaign to address bullying in schools.

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Speaker 1: And I'm proud to say that when President Obama left

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Speaker 1: office in twenty sixteen, bullying was at the lowest level

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Speaker 1: it had ever been since we had started recording the

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Speaker 1: phenomenon in American schools. So for thirty years, I really

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Speaker 1: dedicated my life to trying to help young people. That

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Speaker 1: was really my mission. And happy ending to the story,

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Speaker 1: just you know the young man who wanted to kill himself.

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Speaker 1: He lives in Brooklyn now with his husband. They are

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Speaker 1: rehabilitating a brownstone. What could be gayer than that? And

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Speaker 1: I went to their wedding about fifteen years ago. And

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Speaker 1: the young woman who wanted to start the GSA, She's

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Speaker 1: married to a man, she has two kids. She lives

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Speaker 1: in Boston, and when I visited her a few years ago,

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Speaker 1: her lesbian mother, baby's at the grandkids, so everybody has

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Speaker 1: a happy ending to the story.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, that is incredible. I mean, what has

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Speaker 3: it been like to have had such a foundational role

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Speaker 3: in the community's history, like moving it forward? Like personally,

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Speaker 3: what is that like for you?

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Speaker 1: You know, I would call myself the accidental activist. I

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Speaker 1: wasn't planning. I had no career plan of any kind.

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Speaker 1: I just saw there was a problem and I wanted

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Speaker 1: to do something about it. It was pretty simple, you know.

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Speaker 1: I've been very fortunate to be given some incredible opportunities

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Speaker 1: to make a difference in the world. You know, when

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Speaker 1: I graduated from college, my mother pulled me aside and

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Speaker 1: whispered her favorite Bible verse in my ear. My parents

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Speaker 1: were fundamentalist Christians, and she said, Kevin, to who much

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Speaker 1: has been given, much will be expected. And I was

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Speaker 1: very aware, having been the first person in my family

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Speaker 1: to ever have the privilege of getting a college degree,

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Speaker 1: that I had a moral obligation to do what I

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Speaker 1: can to try to make the world better with it.

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Speaker 1: That it was more than just about going out out

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Speaker 1: there making some money. So I've been afforded some great

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Speaker 1: opportunities to do that, and I'm very grateful for them.

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Speaker 3: From bathrooms to youth sports to who gets to become

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Speaker 3: a teacher, education in schools have served as a battleground

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Speaker 3: for many of the fights regarding a quality. Kevin says,

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Speaker 3: using and exploiting people's fears to hold back progress is

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Speaker 3: nothing new. Something that I see as a pattern in

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Speaker 3: your work and that I see today is the way

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Speaker 3: that education schools has been this battleground for LGBTQ folks

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Speaker 3: and the people who support them. It seems like that

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Speaker 3: was a part of your experience, and unfortunately it's something

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Speaker 3: that we're still seeing today.

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Speaker 2: Why do you think that?

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Speaker 1: Is great question, and I want to step back and

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Speaker 1: put this into an even broader historical context. Whenever the

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Speaker 1: dominant culture wants to panic people about a minority group,

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Speaker 1: what they say is they're after your kids. Supposedly Jews

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Speaker 1: drank the blood of Christian children and mis justified programs.

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Speaker 1: Supposedly black men were after little white girls and this

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Speaker 1: justified lynching. Supposedly the Roma stole children and this justified

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Speaker 1: putting them in concentration camps during the Nazi era, and

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Speaker 1: supposedly LGBTQ plus people recruit or to use today's terminology,

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Speaker 1: they groom people to be LGBTQ plus. So this is

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Speaker 1: a very effective tactic because people get very irrational if

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Speaker 1: they think their children are at risk, and I understand that.

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Speaker 1: You know, if you think somebody's gonna hurt your kid,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna be pretty mad pretty fast. And the reason

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Speaker 1: why our opponents keep digging this trope out and using

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Speaker 1: it over and over again is because it's effective.

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Speaker 3: We've been here before in the seventies in Florida, after

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Speaker 3: a local ordinates granted gay people housing and employment protections,

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Speaker 3: meaning gay teachers couldn't be fired, Anita Bryant, a singer,

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Speaker 3: pageant queen and brand ambassador for the Florida Citrus Commission,

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Speaker 3: organized the Save Our Children campaign, which baselessly smeared LGBTQ

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Speaker 3: people as threats to children. Many cited as the first

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Speaker 3: organized opposition to the gay rights movement.

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Speaker 1: When I was a kid, there was a named Anita

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Speaker 1: Bryant who was a beauty pageant queen, and she led

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Speaker 1: a campaign called Save Our Children, which led to the

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Speaker 1: repeal of the first LGBTQ plus rights ordinances that have

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Speaker 1: been passed in the seventies and eighties, and we're really

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Speaker 1: seeing that history replay again today. They're over a dozen

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Speaker 1: states now that have some version of a so called

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Speaker 1: don't say gay or trans law. It's not just Florida,

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Speaker 1: it's many states. And we're seeing all of this rhetoric

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Speaker 1: revived about how LGBTQ plus people groom and recruit and

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Speaker 1: they do it because it works. It's cynical. The fact

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Speaker 1: of the matter is the people who really abuse children

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Speaker 1: are almost exclusively heterosexual men, usually family members. Those are

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Speaker 1: the people who have used children. But that's not the

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Speaker 1: myth that's being put out there.

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Speaker 3: And I know that LAMBA a lot of the big

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Speaker 3: wins and cases that you all take on do involve youth.

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Speaker 2: Can you tell me about some of those?

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Speaker 1: Sure, LAMBA legals been involved fighting for LGBTQ plus students

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Speaker 1: since we were founded fifty years ago in nineteen seventy three.

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Speaker 1: In fact, one of our very first cases in nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy four, we helped win the right of the University

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Speaker 1: of New Hampshire gay student group to meet on campus,

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Speaker 1: which really led to the proliferation of queer student clubs

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Speaker 1: on college campuses nationwide. In nineteen ninety six, we went

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Speaker 1: to court on behalf of a young man named Jamie Nabusney.

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Speaker 1: Jamie was a high school student in Ashon, Wisconsin. He

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Speaker 1: was repeatedly beaten up and harassed in school. His family

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Speaker 1: complained to the school, the school did nothing, So finally

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Speaker 1: we took him on and we won the first federal

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Speaker 1: lawsuit holding schools accountable for failing to protect LGBTQ plus

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Speaker 1: students from bullying and harassment. And in two thousand we

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Speaker 1: represented Anthony Colleen, a student in the Orange County Unified

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Speaker 1: School District in southern California, who was told that he

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Speaker 1: could not have a gay Straight Alliance at GSA in

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Speaker 1: his school, and we won the federal right of students

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Speaker 1: to have GSAs in their schools. So Lamb Beligo has

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Speaker 1: been fighting for young people literally from the start. I'm

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Speaker 1: sorry to say that we are having to do so

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Speaker 1: again today in twenty twenty three. Unfortunately, as they say,

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Speaker 1: people who know history are doomed to watch idiots repeat it,

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Speaker 1: and we are indeed seeing that history being repeated. We

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Speaker 1: are in court against the Don't Say gay or trans

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Speaker 1: law in Florida. We will be going to court in

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Speaker 1: the other states to challenge that law. We're in court

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Speaker 1: in multiple states trying to defend the rights of trans

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Speaker 1: youth to get gender affirming care. The fight to ensure

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Speaker 1: the safety and well being of LGBTQ plus youth is

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Speaker 1: unfortunately not over, even though we've been fighting it for

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Speaker 1: five decades.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I it's one of those things that I

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Speaker 3: wish this I wish this was were not fights that

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Speaker 3: you all had to take up.

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Speaker 2: I wish that we you know, when you.

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Speaker 3: Were first starting these fights, when you were younger, Like,

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Speaker 3: did you ever think that in twenty twenty three your

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Speaker 3: work would still be so important and so relevant.

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Speaker 1: Yes and no. Yes. In that there's a great quote

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Speaker 1: by Kreta Scott King which I really like. She said,

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Speaker 1: freedom is never really won. You earn it and win

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Speaker 1: it in every generation. And I think that's true. I

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Speaker 1: do want to say that things are vastly better than

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Speaker 1: they were the year I was born. In nineteen sixty three,

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Speaker 1: it was illegal to be gay in forty nine states.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to paint a picture of complete gloom

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Speaker 1: and doom. We have made serious progress, but like as

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Speaker 1: King said, you have to earn it and win it

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Speaker 1: in every generation. Our opponents, I jokingly say, sometimes are

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Speaker 1: like the terminator. They just keep coming, they never stop.

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Speaker 1: And it was Thomas Jefferson who said the price of

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Speaker 1: liberty is eternal vigilance. We have to be vigilant. As

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Speaker 1: we saw with the Dobbs decision in the Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: last year, progress can be reversed very dramatically in this country.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy three, the same year Land of Legal

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Speaker 1: was founded, the right of people to control their own

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Speaker 1: bodies was granted by the Supreme Court in Roe versus Wade,

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Speaker 1: and our opponents fought for forty nine years and finally

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Speaker 1: got that right taken away last year. So we can

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Speaker 1: never let down our guard because our opponents are determined

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Speaker 1: to impose their values on everyone else. And I really

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Speaker 1: think that's what this whole fight is about. It's bigger

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Speaker 1: than abortion. It's bigger than gender affirm care, it's bigger

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Speaker 1: than don't say gay. It's about this. We theoretically our

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Speaker 1: country where everyone has the right of life, liberty, and

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Speaker 1: the pursuit of happiness at lamb to legal. We believe

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Speaker 1: that every person has self determination, that they should decide

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Speaker 1: what to do with their lives, and that so long

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Speaker 1: as they're not hurting anybody else, that's up to them.

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Speaker 1: Our opponents fundamentally do not believe that. They believe that

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Speaker 1: they have the right to tell other people how to

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Speaker 1: live their lives. You know, there's that great bumperstick, or

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Speaker 1: don't like abortion, don't have one, you know, But our

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Speaker 1: opponents think they have the right to tell other people

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Speaker 1: how to live their lives, what to do with their bodies,

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Speaker 1: whether it be abortion or gender affirming care, what they

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Speaker 1: can say in schools, whether they can perform in drag

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Speaker 1: or not. They believe they have the right to tell

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Speaker 1: people how to live their lives. And legal we believe

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Speaker 1: that everybody has the right to live their life according

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Speaker 1: to their own values. Like I said, so long as

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Speaker 1: they're not hurting anybody else. And that's the fundamental fight

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Speaker 1: we're in in America right now, is is there really

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Speaker 1: going to be life liberty and the pursuit of happiness

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Speaker 1: for every individual in America, or as sadly has been

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Speaker 1: the case throughout our history, is it only going to

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Speaker 1: be some people that get it? You know, though some

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Speaker 1: people have traditionally been white, they've been male, they've been Christian,

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Speaker 1: they've been able bodied they've been cisgendered, they've been heterosexual.

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Speaker 1: Those are the people who get to choose how to

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Speaker 1: live their lives, and everybody else is in various ways

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Speaker 1: been restricted throughout American history. We're going to keep fighting

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Speaker 1: until there's no restrictions. That's what we're here to do.

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Speaker 3: I'm so glad that you put it that way, and

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Speaker 3: I think it can be kind of tough to step

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Speaker 3: back and see the forest for the trees a little bit,

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Speaker 3: because you know, it's not about one piece of legislation

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Speaker 3: or one book that was banned or what like. It

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Speaker 3: is I believe fundamentally about whether people can live their

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Speaker 3: lives the way that they want to and it but

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Speaker 3: it sometimes it feels like that value is under attack

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Speaker 3: from so many different ways, so many different pressure points,

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Speaker 3: whether it's reproductive care or gender refirming care, or the

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Speaker 3: ability to read what you want to perform in drags.

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Speaker 3: How do we how do we like stay in the

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Speaker 3: fight with that understanding that even though we might be

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Speaker 3: fighting for, you know, to fight one piece of legislation today,

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Speaker 3: it's really about a broader attack on our rights and equality.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting the term intersectionality gets thrown around

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Speaker 1: a lot nowadays, but I really think we need to

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Speaker 1: understand that all these fights are truly intersectional. When I

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Speaker 1: was a kid, there used to be an ad campaign

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Speaker 1: for lazed potato chips, and then they used to say

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Speaker 1: that you can't stop with just one bigots don't stop

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Speaker 1: with just one group. They come after BIPOC people, they

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Speaker 1: come after women, they come after LGBTQ plus people. You

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Speaker 1: know they're they're trying to restrict the rights of many

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Speaker 1: groups of society because they fundamentally think they have the

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Speaker 1: right to tell us how to live our lives. And

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Speaker 1: we need to unite and recognize that all these fights

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Speaker 1: are connected. There's no such thing as a single issue

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Speaker 1: human being. All of us are complex people with multiple identities,

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Speaker 1: and we need to build a movement that recognizes that

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Speaker 1: all these issues are connected. And we need to stand

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Speaker 1: locked arm in arm to prevent this assault, which is

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Speaker 1: really fundamentally about taking away people's rights to live their

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Speaker 1: lives as they see fit.

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Speaker 3: Let's take a quick break.

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Speaker 2: At our back.

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Speaker 3: Times are tough, but it's not without wins, and it's

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Speaker 3: not without hope. And the forces organizing against justice and

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Speaker 3: equality to forget that they want us to feel like

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Speaker 3: there is no reason for hope hopelessness as a kind

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Speaker 3: of disinformation campaign. Something you mentioned earlier that I want

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Speaker 3: to go back to that I think is really important

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Speaker 3: is that you know, when you're talking about attacks on

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Speaker 3: marginalized communities, oftentimes the stories of our.

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Speaker 2: Communities are very doom and gloom.

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Speaker 3: And I completely understand why that is, because we are

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Speaker 3: facing like, very real attacks.

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Speaker 2: But it's not all bad.

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Speaker 3: And I know that LAMB Illegal has had some recent

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Speaker 3: wins lately. Can you tell me about those?

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Speaker 1: Sure? Uh, First of all, if you look at where

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Speaker 1: we started with LAMB Legal fifty years ago. When we

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Speaker 1: were found in nineteen seventy three, being gay was illegal

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Speaker 1: in forty three states. Cross dressing was as they called

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Speaker 1: it back then, was illegal, So it was literally illegal

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Speaker 1: for trans people to express their gender. Homosexuality was a

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Speaker 1: mental illness for which you could be put in an

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Speaker 1: institution against your will. And we fought and we fought

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Speaker 1: and we fought. It took us thirty years, but we

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Speaker 1: got the laws that criminalized same sex relationships struck down

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Speaker 1: at the Supreme Court in two thousand and three in

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Speaker 1: Lawrens versus Texas. We fought for over twenty years, and

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Speaker 1: we run the right of same sex couples to marry

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Speaker 1: in twenty fifteen at the Supreme Court in Obergefell versus Hodges.

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Speaker 1: We fought for twenty years and we won the right

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Speaker 1: of people to be protected from being fired from their

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Speaker 1: job based on their sexual orientation or their gender identity

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Speaker 1: at the Supreme Court in twenty twenty. We have made

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Speaker 1: enormous progress and we're still winning. You know, I know

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Speaker 1: this is a very dark time. Nearly six hundred anti

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Speaker 1: LGBTQ plus bills were proposed this year and in forty

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Speaker 1: seven different states. The case you're curious, the only states

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Speaker 1: that didn't consider such a bill this year were Illinois,

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Speaker 1: New York, and Delaware. There was one in every other

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Speaker 1: state in the country. And I'll tell you a very

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Speaker 1: specific story which I'm very excited about, and this is

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Speaker 1: about a middle school girl in West Virginia named Becky

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Speaker 1: Pepper Jackson. Becky was in sixth grade when the state

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Speaker 1: of West Virginia banned young trans people from participating in

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Speaker 1: school sports. So we went to court. We represented Becky,

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Speaker 1: and we won at the district court, and Becky got

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Speaker 1: to be on their middle school cross country team. Then

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Speaker 1: the state appealed to the Circuit Court, and we went

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Speaker 1: to the circuit court and we won again, and Becky

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Speaker 1: got to be on her middle school cross country team again.

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Speaker 1: And then they appealed to the Supreme Court in April

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Speaker 1: of this year, and we went to the Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: and the justices voted with US seven to two. And

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Speaker 1: Becky's now in eighth grade and she's on the cross

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Speaker 1: country team. So I know we right now, it's easy

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Speaker 1: to feel defeated, but it's also important to recognize we're

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Speaker 1: still winning. Are we going to win every fight? Absolutely not.

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Speaker 1: That's not how social justice has won. You win some,

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Speaker 1: you lose some. But I am confident in the inn

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Speaker 1: We're going to win this fight. And the reason I'm

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Speaker 1: confident is I believe most Americans agree with us. Most

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Speaker 1: Americans don't want somebody else to tell them how to

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Speaker 1: live their life. And if we understand that, that's what

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Speaker 1: our opponents are trying to do. They're trying to win

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Speaker 1: the right to impose their belief system on people they

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Speaker 1: don't like and they don't agree with. I think most

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Speaker 1: Americans are going to say, Nope, I'm not down for that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I completely agree, I'm vigorously nodding in my head.

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Speaker 2: But one of the things I wonder is I have a.

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Speaker 3: Theory that the other side they know that what they're

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Speaker 3: proposing is unpopular. They know that it is wildly out

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Speaker 3: of sack with what most Americans want. I think that's

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Speaker 3: why they have to lie. They have to lie about

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Speaker 3: trans youth, they have to lie about gender reforming care.

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Speaker 3: If they were confident that people were on their side,

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Speaker 3: they would not have to misrepresent what their side is.

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Speaker 3: And so to me, that seems to suggest that, like

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Speaker 3: they know what they're selling, people aren't really buying. Do

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Speaker 3: you ever have that sense?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think what they're doing is they're taking advantage

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Speaker 1: of people's ignorance on the issues. And let me be

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Speaker 1: very specific, over seventy percent of Americans think they've never

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Speaker 1: met a trans person. They probably have, they just didn't know.

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Speaker 1: But when you have over seventy percent of the people

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Speaker 1: who literally don't know a trans person, it's easy to

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Speaker 1: spread lies and misinformation. I think our other side is

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Speaker 1: very clever and very strategic. They pick things, they pick

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Speaker 1: the most vulnerable point, and they go after that. Like

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Speaker 1: let's take another example critical race theory. The vast majority

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Speaker 1: of Americans have absolutely no idea what critical race theory is,

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Speaker 1: but they've managed to make it into this bogey man

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Speaker 1: that's so evil and so bad. So what they do

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Speaker 1: is they take advantage of people's ignorance. And I know,

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Speaker 1: say ignorance as a pejorative, you could say in a

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Speaker 1: different way, which is lack of familiar people. I think

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Speaker 1: most Americans. I have an interesting conversation with an elderly

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Speaker 1: friend of mine recently and she said, you know, I

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Speaker 1: don't understand why people say black lives matter. Don't all

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Speaker 1: lives matter? And I said, well, Marcia, if you look

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Speaker 1: at American history, throughout American history, black lives have mattered less.

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Speaker 1: We were comfortable enslaving black people, we were comfortable segregating

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Speaker 1: black people, we were comfortable lynching black people. So you

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Speaker 1: need to say specifically that black lives matter, because throughout

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Speaker 1: American history they've been treated like they don't matter. And

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Speaker 1: she was like, I never thought of it that way.

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Speaker 1: That makes perfect sense. And we have a Black Lives

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Speaker 1: Matter vigil in my town every Sunday at two o'clock.

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Speaker 1: She now comes to the visual this seventy five year

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Speaker 1: old that'sis gender heterosexual, white woman comes to the visual

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Speaker 1: every Sunday now because she gets it now. So I

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Speaker 1: think one of the things we need to recommit ourselves

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Speaker 1: to do as move is to educate people. I think

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Speaker 1: there is a hardcore segment of American society that is

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Speaker 1: very bigoted and that will never change its mind. But

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Speaker 1: I think there's a much larger segment that is unfamiliar

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Speaker 1: and ignorant of the issues, and that if we take

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Speaker 1: the time to educate them, and we take the time

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Speaker 1: to explain how what our opponents are doing is really

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Speaker 1: against the fundamental principle of self determination. Nobody likes being

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Speaker 1: told how they can live their life, and I think

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Speaker 1: the vast majority of Americans can end up siding with us.

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Speaker 2: More.

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Speaker 3: After a quick break, let's get right back into it.

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Speaker 3: I agree with Kevin that most Americans would probably agree

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Speaker 3: that nobody should be told how to live their lives.

435
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,679
Speaker 3: But at in a media and digital ecosystem that is

436
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,120
Speaker 3: invested in turning up the temperature on these conversations and

437
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:11,720
Speaker 3: amplifying and incentivizing the worst actors, and it certainly doesn't

438
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:16,880
Speaker 3: always feel that way. That's such a positive, like forward looking,

439
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 3: affirming perspective. And I do think this is why the

440
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 3: other side, Like, I think that they are really good

441
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 3: at exploiting the people who maybe just don't know a

442
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 3: lot about it and don't spend a lot of time

443
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,719
Speaker 3: thinking about it, and then turning the temperature up on

444
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 3: the conversation, you know, pushing at those tension points and

445
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:37,879
Speaker 3: those fractures and those things that they know we're going

446
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 3: to get people kind of like riled up or to

447
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 3: have a big reaction when like, it's just we don't

448
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 3: really I don't think that we have a it's difficult

449
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:52,440
Speaker 3: to have these conversations when so often they are happening

450
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 3: along these like existing tension points and pressure points that

451
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 3: really inflame the conversation.

452
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 1: Well, that's their whole strategy. Their strategy is to divide

453
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 1: and conquer and to take advantage of things where people

454
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 1: feel vulnerable and confused and unaware. And I will make

455
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 1: this prediction, particularly on trans issues, what they're doing is

456
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: going to backfire. And the reason it's going to backfire

457
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,120
Speaker 1: is I wrote a textbook on LGBTQ plus history thirty

458
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 1: years ago for high school students, and I said, there's

459
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 1: two laws of LGBTQ plus history. Number one, the more

460
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 1: visible we are, the more we get attacked. And number two,

461
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 1: the more we are attacked, the more people come out

462
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 1: and fight back. As America, as more and more trans

463
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,959
Speaker 1: people are coming out and parents of trans people are

464
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 1: speaking up and family of trans people are speaking up,

465
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 1: more and more Americans are coming to know trans people,

466
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,719
Speaker 1: and the end, that's why we're going to win. Because

467
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,680
Speaker 1: the number one most effective way to reduce bigotry towards

468
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 1: LGBTQ plus people has been shown over and over and

469
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 1: over again is if you actually know an LGBTQ plus

470
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:08,920
Speaker 1: person personally. And the number of people who say they

471
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 1: don't know a trans person is going to keep dropping.

472
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 1: And the more people realize that trans people are their

473
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 1: neighbors and their family members and their coworkers and our

474
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:26,159
Speaker 1: human beings like everyone else, these attacks will resonate less

475
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 1: and less and less. So what I'm thinking right now

476
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 1: is we just need to hold the line. We need

477
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 1: to hold the line because the next generation is going

478
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 1: to be very different. The Gallop Organization found last year

479
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 1: that one in five Generation Z members identifies as LGBTQ plus.

480
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: One in five. This generation is not going to have

481
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:54,639
Speaker 1: this nonsense. So it's up to folks in my generation

482
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: to hold the line basically until the next generation comes

483
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,400
Speaker 1: into the rescue. And I really believe that's what's going

484
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 1: to happen. So I think what they're doing short term

485
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 1: may be very effective. I mean, let's be honest, they've

486
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,160
Speaker 1: passed laws in over twenty states this year. It's been

487
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 1: bad LAMBA legals role is the community's last line of defense.

488
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: We can't stop them from passing these laws in places

489
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,159
Speaker 1: like North Carolina where I grew up. We don't have

490
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 1: the votes, but we can get them struck down in court,

491
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: and that's what we do every day. And if we

492
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:31,200
Speaker 1: can hold the line until the next generation assumes the

493
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 1: leadership of this country, I think we're going to win.

494
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 2: How do you see all of these issues playing out

495
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 2: in the upcoming election?

496
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: Oh boy?

497
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 2: Well.

498
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: I talk to a lot of folks who are younger

499
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: or for a variety of reasons, have been disenfranchised throughout history,

500
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: and they say, my vote doesn't matter. And I'll say

501
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: to them, you know what, the best evidence is that

502
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 1: your vote matters. The Republicans are trying to take it

503
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 1: away from you. If your vote didn't matter, why would

504
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 1: they be trying so hard to stop you from voting?

505
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 1: So I absolutely think because remember, if you add up

506
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: the so called minorities in America, BIPOC folks, women, LGBTQ

507
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 1: plus people, and obviously there's people who are all of

508
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 1: those things. We're the majority. So we have to educate

509
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: and mobilize the people who agree with us and get

510
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: them out to vote. And if we do that, we're

511
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 1: going to win.

512
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 3: But if you had a crystal ball and you're looking

513
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 3: into the future, what would you like for the future

514
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 3: to be like for our communities? What would you like

515
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 3: to see for our communities ten years down the line,

516
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 3: twenty years down the line.

517
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 1: Oh boy. First, of all, communities is very complicated. There's many, many,

518
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: many different communities, so that's a very complicated question. But

519
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: I guess my dream. I'll speak specifically about LGBTQ plus people.

520
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 1: I would like to dream that someday a same SIS

521
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: couple could walk down the street in any town in

522
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 1: any state anywhere in America and not even think about

523
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 1: whether or not they're safe. They don't think about it.

524
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 1: I would like to see, in fact, the whole notion

525
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: of coming out go away, because I would like to

526
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 1: live in a world in which people just grow up

527
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 1: and they are who they are, and you don't need

528
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 1: to come out as trans or come out as gay,

529
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 1: because from day one, you're free to be who you

530
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: want to be, and nobody thinks it's odd if you

531
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 1: are LGBTQ plus that's just well, that's just who you are.

532
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 1: That would be the ultimate side of victory to me

533
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 1: is if the notion of coming out went away because

534
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 1: people were just free to be who they authentically were

535
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 1: from day one and they didn't need to come out

536
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 1: at some point in their life.

537
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 2: That's so beautiful, Like, what a beautiful vision for the future.

538
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 2: I really like.

539
00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 3: That time when things can feel so understandably heavy and tough,

540
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 3: leaning into joy can be a form of resistance. Our

541
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 3: opponents want us trained and defeated, so abundance, love, happiness,

542
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 3: and joy can be defiant. We talked about how these

543
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 3: fights are long and how it's you know, there's so

544
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 3: many different attacks out there. But something that I like

545
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 3: about Lambda is that you all do a great job

546
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 3: of connecting to joy and resilience and abundance. Right like

547
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 3: you party, you just had your big fifty year celebration.

548
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 3: How do you stay connected to that joy and that

549
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 3: abundance in these fights?

550
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, that's a great question.

551
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 2: For me.

552
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 1: My big hero was Congressman John Lewis, and Congressman John

553
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: Lewis went through a lot. He literally had his skull

554
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 1: fractures on the Edmund Pettis Bridge and Selma in the

555
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties marching for voting rights. But I never ever

556
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 1: ever saw Congressman Lewis depressed because of two reasons. I

557
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 1: asked them this once. I said, how are you always

558
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 1: so cheerful? And he said, because, Kevin, I believe in

559
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: the beloved community, and that's what we're working for, a

560
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 1: community where we each love each other. And I'll never

561
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 1: forget him saying that to me. And I think that,

562
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 1: in the end is what we need to realize. What

563
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: our opponents would like to do is to convince us

564
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: that we can't make a difference, is to convince us

565
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:49,239
Speaker 1: that the world cannot change, is to convince us that

566
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: this kind of crap is inevitable. They're lying to us,

567
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 1: we can change the world, and we can have fun

568
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 1: while we're doing it. So don't let them take away

569
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: your joy. Don't let them take away your hope. Don't

570
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: let them take away your sense of power, because if

571
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 1: they succeed in doing that, things will indeed never change.

572
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 1: So I'm not going to give them the satisfaction. I'm

573
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 1: not doing it. I am going to dance and I'm

574
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 1: going to tell jokes and I'm going to have fun

575
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 1: while I'm fighting for justice, and I urge you all

576
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 1: do the same.

577
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 3: I know folks are fired up, like I'm on the

578
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 3: fridship tears listening to you talk about this. For folks

579
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 3: who want to get involved, what should they be doing?

580
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 3: Where can they go to find out more?

581
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 1: Well, okay, let me say give two answer to that.

582
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 1: First of all, obviously, if you want to learn about

583
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 1: LAMBDA Legal, go to lambdillegal dot org. But I want

584
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: to remind people, no matter who you are in the world,

585
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 1: you have four assets your voice, your vote, your time,

586
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 1: and your money. And what I mean by that is,

587
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: first of all, your voice. When I worked in Washington,

588
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,240
Speaker 1: I learned that there's an intern in every congressional office

589
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 1: who tallies up how many calls they got that day

590
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 1: and what they were about, and they report it to

591
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 1: the congress person. Speak up, call your congress person, March.

592
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:25,399
Speaker 1: Use your voice. Secondly, vote vote in every election. Did

593
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 1: you know that the average school board election turnout is

594
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 1: only fifteen percent. That means that if you can get

595
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:33,919
Speaker 1: eight percent of the voters in your community to vote

596
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 1: for you, because that's a majority of fifteen percent, or

597
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 1: approximately one out of every thirteen people, you get to

598
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 1: run the schools in your community. So vote every time,

599
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 1: not just in the presidentials. Your time. I know a

600
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 1: lot of people work in multiple jobs. They may not

601
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 1: have a lot of time. But whatever time you have,

602
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 1: get involved. Volunteer your time, get involved with your local

603
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 1: community center or a local political organization. And then, finally,

604
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: if you're lucky enough to have a few extra dollars,

605
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 1: remember that over seventy percent of charitable giving in this

606
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 1: country comes from individuals, people like you and me. People

607
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 1: think corporations and foundations pay for charity. That's bs average

608
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 1: people pay for charity in this country. So if you

609
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 1: can spare a few dollars, give it to an organization

610
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: you really believe in. So use your voice, your vote,

611
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,800
Speaker 1: your time, and your money. And we'd love to welcome

612
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:28,359
Speaker 1: you to the Land of Legal Family. If you want

613
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 1: to go to Landollegal dot org.

614
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 3: I like how you put that, because somebody might not

615
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 3: have a lot of money, but they might have a

616
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:36,839
Speaker 3: big platform. They might not have a lot of time,

617
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 3: but they can vote. Like you can always find your

618
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 3: way to help and your way to feel like you're

619
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 3: really leaning into the fight.

620
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,439
Speaker 1: Thank you. I really believe that if we all do

621
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 1: what we can do, we're going to be okay. And

622
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 1: everybody can do something. There's a saying in the Talmud,

623
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: the Jewish holy book, that you are not responsible for

624
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,399
Speaker 1: saving the world, but neither are you exempt from doing

625
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 1: your part to do so. So no one of us.

626
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:15,839
Speaker 1: I don't believe in the so called great nand theory

627
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 1: of history where like there's like a big white savior

628
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 1: who rides to the rescue. That's bs. That's not how

629
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 1: change happens. Change happens because everyday people stand up and

630
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: say I'm not going to do this anymore. No, And

631
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 1: if we all do our part, and some may be voting,

632
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 1: some may be giving money, some may be volunteering their time,

633
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 1: some may be marching, but figure out what your part is.

634
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 1: When Trump got elected, people ask me what should I do?

635
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 1: What should I do? I said, what are you good at?

636
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 1: If you're an artist, make great art. If you're rich,

637
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:55,839
Speaker 1: write a check. Whatever you've got, use it. And we've

638
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 1: all got different gifts, and we've all got different talents.

639
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: And if we just use our own unique gifts together

640
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 1: collectively as a movement, we will win this.

641
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 2: I believe that we will win.

642
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:20,840
Speaker 3: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or

643
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 3: just want to say hi? You can reach us at

644
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 3: Hello at tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts

645
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 3: for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No

646
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 3: Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod.

647
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 3: It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative Jonathan Strickland

648
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 3: is our executive producer. Tarry Harrison is our producer and

649
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 3: sound engineer. Michael Almado is our contributing producer. I'm your host,

650
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,319
Speaker 3: Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate

651
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 3: and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

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00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 3: check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

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00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 3: get your podcasts.

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00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 2: Who w