1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:05,199 Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan, Death Investigator, Professor Forensics, 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University. Joe Scott Morgan has been on over 3 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: ten thousand death scenes, and now he takes a part 4 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: in a way that only he can the homicides that 5 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:24,600 Speaker 1: we are all investigating. Whether you're in the thick of 6 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 1: it with the police department or the FBI, or you're 7 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: an arm chair sleuth, Joe Scott Morgan will give you 8 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 1: answers Body Bags Joe Scott Morgan. Following subscribe now on 9 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you've listened to 10 00:00:44,400 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: your podcast Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. There's an 11 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,959 Speaker 1: old Bible verse that talks about a man whose quiver 12 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: is full, it is truly blessed. I've always taken that 13 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,040 Speaker 1: to mean that a man that's been blessed with children 14 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: is a man that throughout his days will be happy 15 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: and whole. In this case, we have a man that 16 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: took those arrows out of the quiver and literally snapped 17 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: them into discarding them like they were nothing more than rubbish. 18 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this his body backs. I'm 19 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: joined today with my good friend. Jackie Howard, executive producer 20 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: of Crime Stories, would Nancy Grace Jackie, what can you 21 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: tell us about this case? Joe? This is a particularly 22 00:01:55,560 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: difficult case to talk about. Timothy Jones Junior had five children. 23 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: Children treated very poorly. Jones killed his children one at 24 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: a time and then traveled with their bodies across the South. 25 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: Let me lay out for you the order that these 26 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: children died. Jones, thirty seven years old, exercised his six 27 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: year old boy, Natant, until he died. It began with 28 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: a broken electrical outlet in the home. The father, again, Jones, 29 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: thirty seven, made the boy run around their home until 30 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: he collapsed. The oldest child eight year old Mara, and 31 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: then there was seven year old Alliance, strangled to death 32 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 1: by their father. Then he choked two year old Gabriel 33 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: and one year old Abigail as well. After the children 34 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: were dead, Jones wrapped the bodies in plastic and then 35 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: drove around the southeast for nine days before dumping their bodies. 36 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: It's hard to understand, Joe, how someone can hurt another human, 37 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:06,799 Speaker 1: let alone their five children. Give me an idea. This 38 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 1: poor child, a six year old brand was made to exercise. 39 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: Tell me what was going on with his body? You know, Jackie, 40 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 1: we've we've covered cases like this in the past where 41 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:21,239 Speaker 1: we have individuals that just absolutely collapse as a result 42 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: of total and physical exhaustion. And when you begin to 43 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: think of the physiology of say a young child, you 44 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: think that they can, you know, kind of go on 45 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: forever and ever, that they're I'm not going to say 46 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: necessarily bulletproof, but their young bodies are not inhibited by 47 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: some of the factors that come along with age. But 48 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: you know, there's there's a potential for terminal event with 49 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: any child or whatsoever. And so when you begin to 50 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: press a child into this constant state of movement, and 51 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: he actually did this. He Jones actually described how he 52 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: would make this child run in place, run around the 53 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: exterior of or mobile home, and then do something called 54 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: wall sits, which is where he makes the child sit 55 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: with his back like he's sitting in an imaginary chair 56 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: with his back placed against the wall. And it puts 57 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:19,599 Speaker 1: incredible strain upon the skeleton and the muscles. And not 58 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 1: just that, but you have to also factor in this 59 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 1: idea of fear. Can you imagine this little child he 60 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 1: is at the mercy of this grown man telling him 61 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: how worthless he is, how he's possessed, perhaps by demons. 62 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: This has been brought up at some point in time, 63 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 1: and the adrenaline is pumping in this little boy's body 64 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 1: and he's sitting there in total and complete fear. So 65 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,919 Speaker 1: you've got these two factors that make up a perfect 66 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:53,280 Speaker 1: storm here physiologically where you are wearing this child down 67 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 1: physically and then emotionally and mentally. He's being driven to 68 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 1: exhaustion just by this over of things like dopamine and adrenaline, 69 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: and of course at some point in time you're going 70 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: to collapse as a result of total exhaustion. Not to mention, 71 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 1: there's also been a hint that there was some type 72 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 1: of striking that was going on with this little boy. 73 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 1: But like you had said, and this kind of gives 74 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: a hint as to what wound up happening here, these 75 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 1: children were down Jackie for almost nine days. So it's 76 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: really really difficult, Joe, what happened to this child? Explain 77 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: it to me specifically, What does it actually mean? What 78 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: does it do to your body to break it down? 79 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: Are we talking about lack of water? Are we talking 80 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 1: about his heart stopped. What is it that actually killed him? Well, 81 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: when you begin to think about it, our body is 82 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: like a little engine, isn't it, and so it requires fuel, 83 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: it requires lubrication, those sorts of things. And at a 84 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,720 Speaker 1: cellular level, our bodies require things like electro lights. We 85 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 1: hear about that electro light replacement. And athletes, you know, 86 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: even high high speed athletes have to have electro lights. 87 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 1: They drink all of these sports drinks in order to 88 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:12,799 Speaker 1: replace them. You can have a compromise of your sodium levels, 89 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: for instance, and this goes to things that lead to 90 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: things like cardiac arrest. So when you're being deprived of 91 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 1: these basic elements and also included this is like potass him. 92 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 1: These are being consumed by your body, this little engine 93 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: in your body the entire time until you reach a 94 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 1: point where you're going to have a rhythm event with 95 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: your heart that's going to cause you to go into 96 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: cardiac arrests. It's unsustainable. And this child, Jackie, remember it's 97 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 1: child's only six years old, and he is being forced 98 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: by the one person that is in total control of 99 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: his life at that moment time and each day, day 100 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: in and day out, he knows no other master if 101 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: you will. So he is going to do specifically what 102 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 1: he is told to do, because if he doesn't, he 103 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: knows the price is going to be high, forced to 104 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: sit against the wall, or worse, maybe he'll be beaten 105 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 1: over and over again. You mentioned electrolytes. What exactly does 106 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: that mean? Because you hear it all the time you 107 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: as a parent. Your child gets sick, has diarrhea, has 108 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: a stomach virus, has a cold, we worry about making 109 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 1: sure their electrolyte levels are okay. But what does it 110 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: actually mean when you have an electrolyte deficiency. This goes 111 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: to kind of the receptors in your body that are 112 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: at a physiological level that are telling telling the mechanisms 113 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: within your body, say, for instance, your heart to beat, 114 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: and so these become compromised to the point where your 115 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: heart actually seizes after a period of time when they're 116 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: deprived of them. So at an elemental level, all of 117 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: these are being drained away everything, just like I mentioned potassium, sodium, 118 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: and of course this complex of electrolytes, so everything kind 119 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: of seizes up and compromises to the point where the 120 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: child is not going to have It is actually referred 121 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: to as a classic heart attack where we have a 122 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: blockage in our heart, because the child is six years old, 123 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: is not going to have blockage, or atheroscrotic cardiovascular disease 124 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: where they're going to have what's called a mio cardial infarction. 125 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: This is going to be a rhythm event where the 126 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: heart actually begins to spasm and in a moment, in 127 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: just like a twinkling of the eyes, suddenly the heart 128 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: stops after it begins to kind of seize, and the 129 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 1: child collapses, and of course oxygenated blood's not flowing through 130 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: through the body anymore, so the child's going to die. 131 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: If the child had received immediate medical attention, could he 132 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: have been saved. Yeah, he could have been saved. And 133 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 1: you know, that's really the tragedy of all of this. 134 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: I think that probably if Jones, at some point in 135 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: time had maybe just shown one sintilla of mercy to 136 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: this little boy, he could have set him down and 137 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: given him a breather, maybe given him something like a 138 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: sports drink, maybe water, just water in and of itself, 139 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: because the child is also becoming dehydrated at this point, 140 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:08,959 Speaker 1: just to give him a rest, maybe for twenty minutes, 141 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: you know, that that little window there where if he 142 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: had been granted just a little bit of restpite, he 143 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: may have been able to endure. But just like my 144 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: analogy with a motor vehicle, he ran this child to 145 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: the point where the engine essentially blew and the child 146 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: had had no chance of recovering from this. And what's 147 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: really a shame is that as this was going on, 148 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:35,439 Speaker 1: I can almost tell you what happened, This child visibly, 149 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 1: and I mean visibly, went into a seizure in in 150 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:43,199 Speaker 1: front of his father, this man who was supposed to 151 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: be taking care of him. This child seized right there. 152 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: You can imagine, the body goes rigid, the thumbs are 153 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: tucked back. You'll you'll see them begin gas for air. 154 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 1: They're kind of vibrating and shaking on the ground until 155 00:09:55,960 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 1: there's nothing but just dead silence. How long have taken 156 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:03,559 Speaker 1: for this child to collapse? And there we talk in 157 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 1: an hour, two hours or all day. I think that 158 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 1: this is probably in totality, if you're going to run 159 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 1: this child to death. I think that there has been 160 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: mentioned in this case that this may have gone on 161 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,839 Speaker 1: in excess of two hours at one point in time, 162 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: and that would probably be sufficient to do this in 163 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,439 Speaker 1: and again, when you have this lethal combination of this 164 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:33,559 Speaker 1: pumping of adrenaline, the deprivation of nutrients and the necessary 165 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: elemental essentials that we require as human beings, it is 166 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:43,319 Speaker 1: a train wreck waiting to happen. And listen, there's also 167 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,559 Speaker 1: something else that you have to factor in here and again. 168 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: I don't know if they were able to assess this 169 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: in the ton's body, but I'm thinking that there was 170 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: probably ongoing what's referred to as deprivation along the way, 171 00:10:56,520 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: where probably food and water for protracted period of time, 172 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 1: I mean, like days beforehand, we're probably being withheld from him. 173 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: So you have this kind of event that's going on, 174 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:10,439 Speaker 1: and the father is just kind of sitting back waiting, 175 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: waiting for the verbial straw that broke the candell's back. 176 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: And as it turned out, you know, he accused the 177 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 1: child of short circuiting you know, the electrical system in 178 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 1: the house and put that on this little six year 179 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 1: old boy. Can you imagine, you know, he had actually 180 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 1: claimed that the child had blown four sockets, you know, 181 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: other than you know, sticking a paper clip in a socket. 182 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: Right now, I couldn't even tell you how to blow 183 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: a socket. In a house. How much more so does 184 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: that apply to a six year old child? And that's 185 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 1: that is what the father was allegedly accusing the son of, 186 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: and the father actually admitted to it. So I would 187 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: have to imagine too that the size of a six 188 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 1: year old played a large part in this too, because 189 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 1: you know, six year old, how much do you weigh? 190 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 1: Fifty pounds? If that yeah, it would be. And again 191 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 1: you know, as adults, we have a certain a certain 192 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,839 Speaker 1: level of energy stores, and you know that's considered to 193 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 1: be like fats for instance, that we carry on board 194 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 1: in our body, and so we have sufficient energy that 195 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: we can call upon. And if we keep balance and 196 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 1: we're moving, we might be able to avoid saving to say, 197 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 1: having some kind of cardiac problem, as long as we 198 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: don't get into extreme where essentially the needle is in 199 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 1: the red. If you will well this child, if he's 200 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:33,439 Speaker 1: deprived of nutrients, if he's deprived of the bare essentials, 201 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: and this has been going on not just in the 202 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: acute that means sudden, but chronically where he's being denied food, 203 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:42,199 Speaker 1: all it's going to take is to push his little 204 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: body closer and closer and closer to that red line, 205 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:49,559 Speaker 1: and it's at that point that he can't recover from that, 206 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: and it would not I think that it probably would 207 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: not matter even if you had an er physician there 208 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:59,199 Speaker 1: with a crash cart where they're trying to revive this child. 209 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: I just don't see how they could have done it, 210 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: because the child had just literally been run ragged. Jackie, 211 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:31,439 Speaker 1: we've we've actually talked about just one of these precious 212 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 1: little children and how that child, Naton, came to his death. 213 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:38,839 Speaker 1: But you know, Jackie, there are four other children here, 214 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:42,079 Speaker 1: four other children that this man had been gifted with, 215 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: and they have a story to tell as well, don't they. 216 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: They do. Joe, eight year old Mara and seven year 217 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: old Alliance were strangled by Jones with his bare hands. 218 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 1: That means most likely that he was looking the children 219 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 1: in the face when he killed them. Yeah, and that's 220 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 1: that's what makes this kind of manual. And this is 221 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:09,319 Speaker 1: in fact manual strangulation where you're talking about the utilization 222 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:13,959 Speaker 1: of your bare hands to choke, to choke another human 223 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:18,199 Speaker 1: being to death. And there's many different types of manual strangulation, 224 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: but we have to assume that this was probably a 225 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: throttling where you use both hands, you grab the neck 226 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: on the antier, which means the front, and you begin 227 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: to squeeze, squeeze down until the child in these cases, 228 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, where these two children, we're 229 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: both completely deprived of oxygen. Now there's two mechanisms at 230 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: work here that can happen, Jackie. We have the mechanism 231 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: of the squeezing that actually shuts down the blood flow 232 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: to the brain, and it causes a condition with the 233 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: brain that that deprives it of oxygenated blood that rises 234 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: up out of the rotted vessels. So you're clamping those 235 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: vessels down and absolutely the brain begins to kind of 236 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: almost strangulate as a result of lack of blood supply. 237 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: Then you have another thing that happens with manual strangulation, 238 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 1: and that is when you have the trachea, the laynix, 239 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: these structures that are kind of firm that are in 240 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: our throat. You begin to think like the structure of 241 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: the Adam's apple for instance, and of course the infamous 242 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: highoid bone that's it's very high. What happens with this 243 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: is that in addition to the blood vessels being clamped off, 244 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 1: you're actually closing down or clamping down the airflow that's 245 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: coming in through the nose, through the mouth and is 246 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: going to the lung where this blood oxygen exchange takes place. 247 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: And so that you've got these both of these mechanisms 248 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:59,239 Speaker 1: working at the same time, and so if one isn't effective, 249 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: then the other mind be, and then you wind up 250 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: with a combination of both, and of course the end 251 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: is always lethal. How much pressure does it take to 252 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 1: do this? And how was he physically able to do this? 253 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: It doesn't take much with these tender young necks of 254 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: these children. Remember these children are not very old, they're 255 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 1: not very robust. This is a grown man. He's got large, 256 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: probably muscled hands, and it's not going to take very 257 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: much to overcome a child. And let me throw in 258 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: one little aside here relative to Jones. Jones was interviewed 259 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 1: and one of the investigators actually asked this man. He said, 260 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: did the kids? Did the kids struggle? Did they fight back? 261 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: And his response was chilling, absolutely chilling. In this is paraphrasing, 262 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: he said, sure, wouldn't anybody, And just allow that to 263 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: kind of seat down into your mind just for a second, 264 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: that the dad could be that callous when he's describing squeezing, 265 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: literally squeezing the life out of both of these children 266 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: in those moments. And it really, you know, to your 267 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: other question, it really doesn't It doesn't take very long 268 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: if you will, to compromise or defeat the structures of 269 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: the neck. You know, the way our bodies are put together, 270 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 1: their mental function in kind of difficult circumstances, when it's 271 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,119 Speaker 1: cold outside, when it's hot, when we when we're sick, 272 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: all these sorts of things. But when you begin to 273 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 1: compromise the structure, the muscles, all the supportive tissues, these airways, 274 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 1: and certainly these vessels that supply oxygen and blood, it's 275 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: not going to take much with a small child. And 276 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: I would imagine that the whole event for both of 277 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: these kids was probably took no more than four to 278 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:52,400 Speaker 1: five minutes with each child. If that one thing that's 279 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 1: that's kind of uh, that's kind of heartbreaking in this 280 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: particular case, is the fact that one of the kids, 281 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 1: one of the kids, actually is reported to have looked 282 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 1: at his father as his dad is about to kill 283 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 1: him and he said, Daddy, I love you. Can you 284 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: imagine that is heartbreaking? Job just chilling, Yes, it is. 285 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,920 Speaker 1: Jackie and the fact that he would do this, and 286 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: then you know you have to you have to try 287 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: to and it's a scary thing to do. You kind 288 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 1: of have to try to get into his mind. First off, 289 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: why in the world would you want to And make 290 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 1: no bones about it. This is a physical assault that 291 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 1: results that stemming from the fact that he had essentially 292 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: brought about the death of Natan simply through exhaustion and deprivation. 293 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: He is purposed. He is purposed in his mind to 294 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:51,640 Speaker 1: begin to kill these children one by one. And it's 295 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: a very rudimentary way to do it. It's not like 296 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: he took the child out in some kind of complex 297 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:02,439 Speaker 1: event and and and ended their lives collectively. What he 298 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: did here was at a very primal level. I mean, 299 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 1: just think about it. This is very intimate and you 300 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 1: really said something key here. When someone is choking another person, 301 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: there's a high probability you're going to be face to 302 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: face and it's one of the most intimate things that 303 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: you can do as far as the perpetration of a murder. 304 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: You're looking at them eye to eye. It's not like 305 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 1: their great extended arms length. More than likely they're held close, 306 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: the elbows are bent they're being drawn into their body 307 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 1: and just being squeezed. They're trying to apply the perpetrators, 308 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: trying to apply as much pressure as possible. And this 309 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 1: is another thing that he would have borne witness to, Jackie. 310 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: It wasn't just kind of looking into the eyes of 311 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: the children as life left them. You're going to see 312 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: physiological changes in the appearance of your children. Okay, So 313 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: what happens here is that as you're beginning to squeeze 314 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 1: the head, the head, because as I always say, the 315 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: head is the most vascular area of the body, the 316 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 1: blood is backing up in the head, and so the 317 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: head turns, actually it turns this kind of lovacious to 318 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 1: purple color. The eyes begin to protrude about sometimes the 319 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: tongue will protrude. Many times people that are being choked 320 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,120 Speaker 1: will actually bite their tongue and the tongue protrudes out 321 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:29,679 Speaker 1: is clinched between the teeth, and it's all of this 322 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:33,640 Speaker 1: is just this response that your body is struggling for air. 323 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 1: And so he would have literally borne witness to this 324 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: as he hovered over each child. And this is flesh 325 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: upon flesh. He is taking his hands, these hands that 326 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: were supposed to have been there to protect these kids 327 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:49,880 Speaker 1: over the years. These hands that we're supposed to provide 328 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: love and care, and he uses them to literally constrict 329 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,360 Speaker 1: the life out of each one of these kids. Other 330 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 1: than that infamous hyoid bone that we have talked about 331 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: at great length in other cases that can be easily 332 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: broken with pressure on it. Given the size difference between 333 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 1: this man's hands and the necks of these children, would 334 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 1: we have seen other broken bones in their spine, in 335 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: their net region. Yeah, not necessarily broken bones. And I 336 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: want our listeners to understand this. It's not necessarily you know. 337 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: I think that a lot of us have this idea 338 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,120 Speaker 1: that the snapping of necks, if you will, and that's 339 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: kind of something that Hollywood does. What's really critical here 340 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 1: is not so much the hyoid, but if you remember 341 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:37,159 Speaker 1: when I was talking talking about the layernx itself, the 342 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: area where where our oxygen travels through. This is a 343 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: what's referred to as a cartilaginous body. If folks at 344 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 1: home will kind of touch your nose, you have a 345 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 1: cartilaginous area to your nose. It's below the bony structure 346 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:55,119 Speaker 1: and it's it's comprised of cardilaginous bodies in there. And 347 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:59,120 Speaker 1: did you know with cartilage, cartilage fractures as well. Okay, 348 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: and so just if you've ever had a friend that's 349 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: had like an injured meniscus in their knee, that's something 350 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,439 Speaker 1: that's kind of common. That's a cartilaginous body. It's not 351 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 1: actually ossified like a bony structure. So these will actually fracture. 352 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 1: And when they do fracture, this essentially breaks down the 353 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: windpipe to the point where it doesn't function any longer. 354 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: So at autopsy, when we go into these structures, what 355 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: we're looking for are little focal areas of hemorrhage. Because 356 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: you have what covers the larynix right here. You have 357 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:32,880 Speaker 1: what are called strap muscles, and they are these kind 358 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: of criss cross muscles that lie across this area and 359 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: its pressure is applied to them, they develop little areas 360 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: or focal areas of hemorrhage. Now this is different than PATIKII. 361 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:44,919 Speaker 1: We hear about PATIKII a lot, and I'll get to 362 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 1: that in just a second, but you'll see hemorrhage in 363 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: the strap muscles that overlie these structures in the neck. Now, 364 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 1: going to PATIKII, what happens with them, Well, is this 365 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 1: occurs when do you remember when I talked about the 366 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 1: congestion in the head. There's no blood return here, so 367 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 1: the blood is seeking areas where it can kind of 368 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 1: seep out. For instance, because of the intense pressure in 369 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,199 Speaker 1: the eyes. It's most noticeable because the vessels in the 370 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,920 Speaker 1: eyes are very dainty, they're very fragile. And remember they're 371 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 1: called vessels. They're not storage units, Okay, They're meant to 372 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: move blood, not store blood. So more pressure is built 373 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,680 Speaker 1: up on the inner walls of these these little capillaier beds, 374 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,440 Speaker 1: and they explode and we get these little pin prick 375 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: hemorrhages that are called particular hemorrhages. And so that's something 376 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 1: else that we're going to look for, particularly in the eyes. 377 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,400 Speaker 1: Sometimes you'll see them along the gum line as well, 378 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: and sometimes they will actually appear on the lungs, depending 379 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 1: upon how much pressure is being exerted and how much 380 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 1: the individual is struggling. We have two other children to 381 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 1: talk about, two year old Gabriel and one year old Abigail. 382 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: They were choked with a belt because Timothy Jones hands 383 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: were too big for him to be able to do 384 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 1: a manual strangulation. What would have been the difference in 385 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: their deaths. This is an important delineation to make between 386 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:16,239 Speaker 1: a manual strangulation and what's referred to as a literature strangulation. Now, 387 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: literature can be made out of any number of things. 388 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: I've seen him made with wire. I've seen him made 389 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,120 Speaker 1: with baling rope, like you see with bales of hay 390 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 1: tied up. Electrical cord is very common, and then you've 391 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 1: got woven rope. But you know, one of the most 392 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 1: common things that we see utilized as a weapon and 393 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,880 Speaker 1: also as a means for people to take their own 394 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: lives are actually belts. You know why because most people 395 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: possess a belt of some kind, and so it's something 396 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,400 Speaker 1: that has utility, it's something that's within reach. So yeah, 397 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: his hands probably these are very tiny children. I mean, 398 00:24:54,359 --> 00:25:00,040 Speaker 1: you know, if if I remember correctly, Abigail Elane, she 399 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: was only one, and of course Gabriel was only two. 400 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: Just think about how diminutive they are in comparison to 401 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: a grown man. And so yeah, he probably couldn't get 402 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,360 Speaker 1: both of his hands or wrapped around their necks. So 403 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,679 Speaker 1: he's going to use what is at his disposal. He 404 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: may have even taken this belt off of his own 405 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: waist to facilitate this. Now, this is going to be 406 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 1: a literature strangulation. So this is going to look when 407 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: we do the examination from a forensic standpoint, it's going 408 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,239 Speaker 1: to look completely different than the presentation that you'll have. 409 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: When someone is actually throttled or choked with bare hands 410 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 1: or strangled with bare hands, you'll have widespread hemorrhage in 411 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:42,199 Speaker 1: the soft tissues underlying skin, in the muscles with the hands. 412 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 1: But with ligature, it's very very specific. And let's say, 413 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 1: let's just think about a belt. Let's think that maybe 414 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,719 Speaker 1: this is a two inch width belt. Well, you're going 415 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 1: to have what are called margins, which will be those 416 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 1: areas that define the outside of the belt. So just 417 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:02,120 Speaker 1: imagine a belt overlying a surf, so as it squeezed 418 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: down on an area the outer boundaries, it almost looks 419 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 1: like if you're looking at it from an aerial shot, 420 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: it almost looks like a road. When you're looking down 421 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 1: at it, you'll see the outer boundaries of that road 422 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,120 Speaker 1: or the belt overlying the neck, and you'll have hemorrhage 423 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,360 Speaker 1: there and sometimes it will be abraided, you know, like 424 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: you have an abraided an a braided knee. You can 425 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: an abrasion, Well, that'll happen on the neck with a 426 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: ligature because the person's struggling, all right, you have this 427 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 1: friction between the surface of the skin and actually just 428 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 1: contacting area with the ligature that's being utilized, and so 429 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,640 Speaker 1: you'll have this kind of rubbed area there as well. Now, 430 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,640 Speaker 1: how does this work, Well, there's a couple of ways 431 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 1: of a ligature can work. You can use two hands 432 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 1: with it where you essentially put it around the neck 433 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: kind of reverse order, if you will, and then tighten 434 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 1: it really quick and strangle the person from the rear. 435 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 1: Or with a belt, because it's got a buckle, the 436 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:02,159 Speaker 1: individual can wrap the belt around an individual's neck and 437 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 1: then run the end of the belt through the buckle 438 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 1: and essentially sent it down and it makes almost like 439 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 1: a noose where you're standing above them. And you know, 440 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,199 Speaker 1: in a case like this where you've got these two 441 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: very tiny, tiny little children, that is not beyond reason 442 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 1: there that this is a way that this would have 443 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 1: been done. You should just kind of centch the belt 444 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:25,679 Speaker 1: down on there. Now, are you're going to see the 445 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,199 Speaker 1: same things physiologically? Yeah, you'll see a lot of the 446 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 1: same things that you see with a manual strangulation. There'll 447 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: still be POTIKII, you'll have underlying hemorrhage and soft tissue, 448 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: but it's going to be very uniformed. When you have 449 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 1: bare hands, it'll be spread everywhere, but with a belt 450 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 1: in this case, it'll be very uniform. It'll be defined. 451 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: And even when you what we call reflect the skin 452 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 1: of the neck, you'll be able to make out that 453 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,679 Speaker 1: outline many times on the surface of the muscles as well. 454 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 1: And so you're also going to have associated PATIQII, where 455 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: the little vessels, again just like with a manual strangulation, 456 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,880 Speaker 1: are going to burst in the eyes. And in addition 457 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,679 Speaker 1: to that, you're you're going to see potentially if he 458 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 1: did in fact, since this this is kind of horrific 459 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: to think about, not that this isn't already, but you 460 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,920 Speaker 1: will many times see a buckle mark on the back 461 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: of the neck as well. So you kill your five 462 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 1: children in one of the most intimate ways that you 463 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 1: can possibly do in the house that you sheltered them in, 464 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 1: what do you do with their bodies? In Jackie, the 465 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 1: story just gets more bizarres. It goes along, it does 466 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: Joe Timothy Jones Jr. At this point, after killing his 467 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: five children, ages one through eight, wraps their bodies in plastic, 468 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 1: places them in his car, and drives across the South 469 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 1: for nine days before he dumps their bodies in the 470 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 1: trunk of his vehicle. For nine days with five bodies. Yeah, 471 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: and you know, I'm thinking, you know, what in the 472 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 1: world are you doing? And Jackie, let me correct you 473 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 1: about something you had mentioned that he wrapped them in plastic. 474 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: He didn't wrap them in plastic. He put these little 475 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: bodies in garbage bags. And I think that's emblematic of 476 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: the way he kind of viewed them. He viewed them 477 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 1: as nothing more than refuse, if you will. And he 478 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: spent this protracted period of time running up and down 479 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: the road in a mad fear. Are trying to figure 480 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 1: out what in the world am I going to do 481 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: with these bodies? How am I not going to draw 482 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: attention to myself? And all the while, you can't stop nature, 483 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: can you. All the whiles he's driving down the road 484 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: in this escalade that he's driving, those bodies are riding 485 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 1: with him, these precious little angels, what's left of them, 486 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 1: sweating inside of these bags, because that's what happens to 487 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 1: bodies like this when they're actually encased in plastic. It's 488 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: speeding up the process of decomposition. So let's just think 489 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: about that just for a second. All the while, every 490 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: single day, every moment, every second that ticks off of 491 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:43,480 Speaker 1: that clock, these bodies are progressing further and further and 492 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: further down the post mortem timeline, and that means that 493 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: changes are going on at a molecular level. The bodies 494 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: are essentially going through what's referred to as autolytic changes, 495 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 1: and kind of let me explain to you what that is, 496 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 1: auto meaning the body is kind of in a state 497 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: of self digestion. It's what's happening. Remember, at a cellular level, 498 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: cellular respiration has ceased, so the body begins to break down. 499 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 1: It's literally beginning to consume itself after this period of time, 500 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 1: and with that, all of these gases are created and 501 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 1: you get this horrible odor that rises up out of 502 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: each one of these children. It's not just one child. 503 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,719 Speaker 1: You've got five children that you're conveying, and each of 504 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 1: them are unique in their own structure, and they're decomposing, 505 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 1: probably at different rates, but still all the while decomposing 506 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: as Dad is driving down the road with their remains 507 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: in the back. And it's August in the South, Joe, 508 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 1: the Deep South. You're right, And it's not just the South, 509 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 1: it's the Deep South. I've lived here in my entire life, Jack, 510 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 1: And let me tell you something I know about the 511 00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: Deep South. In August. It's hot. It's hot even if 512 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 1: you've got the air on when you get out of 513 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: the car. Every time you go to refuel, hot air 514 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 1: seeps in. And that's going to promote this process. We 515 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 1: talked about the autolytic change that's going on within the body. 516 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: Then you've got this kind of puture faction that's going 517 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 1: on that's an external force on the body, and this 518 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 1: is sped up by heat. It's like it's like he's 519 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 1: driving down the road in the car almost becomes like 520 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: a convection of and where heat is kind of swirling 521 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 1: and circulating around him and the remains of his children 522 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 1: as he's going down the road. These children are now 523 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: breaking down, not just at a molecular level, at a 524 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 1: cellular level. Rather, they're breaking down now externally. The bodies 525 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 1: are beginning to swell. You've got this foul odor that's 526 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: rising up and it permeates everything. I've actually worked cases 527 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: in the past, Jackie, where bodies were left in cars decomposed, 528 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 1: and then people came and retrieve the bodies, remove them 529 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: from the cars. And I'm talking about a year down 530 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: range from when the perpetrator came back to the scene 531 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 1: and removed the body, and you could still smell the 532 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: decomposition in the fabric of the car. It's almost impossible 533 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 1: to get that smell out. So everywhere he goes, everything 534 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: he does, if he's stopping to get a candy bar, 535 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 1: if he's stopping to get a soda pop, if he's 536 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 1: stopping to get to top off his car with gas, 537 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: everywhere he would go, his body would just be infused 538 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 1: with this smell, with this aroma of his decomposing children. 539 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 1: I cannot I can only imagine him going into into 540 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 1: a convenience store and just walking in unbathed, unshowered, and 541 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 1: walking past people and them smelling him and thinking, what 542 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: in the world is going on with this guy? Because 543 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 1: this is not something that you just normally associate with 544 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 1: with everyday life. This is something and I think that 545 00:33:55,360 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 1: it goes to something in our primal being It's almost 546 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 1: like an indication of fear. I think, if you will, 547 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 1: there's something about it that when people smell this smell, 548 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 1: they know something horrible has happened at this point in time, 549 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 1: and if people will alert now, somebody might not say 550 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,760 Speaker 1: anything to you about it, but people would have taken 551 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,359 Speaker 1: notice of him, and still to this day, if you 552 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,400 Speaker 1: could track down his car, that car would still have 553 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,920 Speaker 1: that odor of deafinity. The smell of decomposition Joe that 554 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 1: you're talking about is one of the reasons that Timothy 555 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 1: Jones got caught. He was stopped on a routine sobriety check, 556 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,760 Speaker 1: a roadblock, if you will, and an officer was paying 557 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 1: attention to exactly what you just described. Yes, he was 558 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,839 Speaker 1: Jackie that officer. Can you imagine you're it's at night, 559 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 1: You've got a flashlight, your standing out there, and you've 560 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:51,840 Speaker 1: got all of your colleagues. This is a sobriety checkpoint. 561 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:53,759 Speaker 1: They're checking to see, if you know, just randomly, if 562 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,920 Speaker 1: people are DUI that are going through there on this 563 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: county road, and all of a sudden this escalates slowly 564 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 1: pulls up and you can imagine the guy in the 565 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,839 Speaker 1: front seat is probably nervous. He's got the cops there, 566 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 1: they got their flashlights, they're checking. They don't know. He 567 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 1: doesn't know if they're looking for him or if this 568 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,839 Speaker 1: is just they're just randomly checking people. But when that 569 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 1: window comes down in that August heat in Mississippi, because 570 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 1: that's where this was, that smell would have rolled out 571 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 1: of that window. And something I can tell you about cops, 572 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 1: and I've heard this over and over and over again 573 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:28,920 Speaker 1: from all of my friends. They are in law enforcement, 574 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:30,959 Speaker 1: this sort of thing. And I know it anyway because 575 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,839 Speaker 1: I'm a death investigator. But they always say, they say, 576 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,320 Speaker 1: once you smell the smell of death, you never forget 577 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 1: it as long as you live. And when that cop 578 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 1: approached that window and he stuck his head in there 579 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:46,880 Speaker 1: to ask this fellow, mister Jones, how's it going this evening, 580 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 1: that smell rolled out and it hit that cop right 581 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:52,360 Speaker 1: in the nose, and he knew instantaneously that something was afoot, 582 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,799 Speaker 1: something horrible. And it's at that point in time they 583 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,839 Speaker 1: pulled Jones out of the vehicle and they were asking him, 584 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,239 Speaker 1: who are you and why does your vehicle smell like this? 585 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,239 Speaker 1: Where were the children, Joe? You know, where he was 586 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:09,759 Speaker 1: found was just into Mississippi out of Alabama. Jackie. There's 587 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 1: any number of roads that you know that connect these 588 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:13,560 Speaker 1: two states are adjoining. You can go down to I 589 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 1: twenty corridor and you go from Alabama directly into Mississippi. 590 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:23,919 Speaker 1: But Jones turns out he had gone down what has 591 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,640 Speaker 1: been previously described as a logging road. And if you 592 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:32,080 Speaker 1: don't know what a logging road is, it's it's very 593 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 1: very rough. It's it's generally more or less like a 594 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 1: path where big trucks go in and they pull out 595 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 1: pine trees that are being harvested for pulpwood. And he 596 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:44,320 Speaker 1: had found one of these roads, and he decided while 597 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 1: he was still in Alabama that he was going to 598 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 1: go down one of these logging roads. There's a lot 599 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 1: of brush on either side, and he deposited these these 600 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:56,200 Speaker 1: poor little precious children, their their bodies. And you know, 601 00:36:56,200 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 1: I've seen the crime scene images of these, Jackie. He 602 00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:05,040 Speaker 1: didn't just simply take the bags and bury them. He 603 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:09,839 Speaker 1: didn't lay them out in some respectable way. He took 604 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 1: these kids and he just created a pile. Remember what 605 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 1: I said earlier, These children were in garbage bags, and 606 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,279 Speaker 1: that's what it looked like it looked like piles of 607 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 1: garbage that someone had just deposited in a rural area 608 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 1: and then driven off. And what's very sad is that 609 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:30,799 Speaker 1: with Mirror, the oldest child, I hate to even say this, 610 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,800 Speaker 1: wild animals had gotten into her bag and had begun 611 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:39,279 Speaker 1: to feast on her, feast on her remains. And that's 612 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 1: the horror of this because his shouldren not only did 613 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 1: he not protect them in life, not only did he 614 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 1: destroy them in life and take their lives away from them, 615 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,560 Speaker 1: he failed miserably protecting them in death because they are 616 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,879 Speaker 1: subject to all of the elements surrounding them everything, and 617 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,759 Speaker 1: when a decomposing body is in the wild like this, 618 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:02,800 Speaker 1: just one, now we got five, you're this is sending 619 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 1: off signals to every bit of the wildlife around there, 620 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:11,560 Speaker 1: everything from foxes to raccoons, to possum anything or wild dogs, 621 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,839 Speaker 1: anything that is going to feast on flesh is going 622 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 1: to be out there. And that's what happened to these 623 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:22,399 Speaker 1: children's bodies. To this day, To this day, Jackie, there 624 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:26,719 Speaker 1: are still police officers and prosecutors that are having a 625 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:30,640 Speaker 1: very very difficult time getting these cases out of their minds. 626 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,799 Speaker 1: I can certainly understand why that would be Joe, while 627 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 1: the only true justice would be for these children to 628 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:40,040 Speaker 1: still be alive. Jones was arrested and tried, found guilty, 629 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:44,320 Speaker 1: and has been sentenced to death in South Carolina, Jackie, 630 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:46,960 Speaker 1: what sets this case apart from every other case that 631 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 1: I've covered is the fact that these homicides, let me 632 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:56,200 Speaker 1: rephrase that, these murders, because this is what this is. 633 00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:00,359 Speaker 1: These are murders, brutal murders. These took place in South Carolina. 634 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:02,919 Speaker 1: I've never seen a case where you had such what's 635 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:07,240 Speaker 1: called the interagency cooperation. Did you know that when those 636 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:11,280 Speaker 1: with the state police in Alabama found and located these bodies, 637 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,959 Speaker 1: they had the courtesy to contact the authorities in South 638 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,760 Speaker 1: Carolina and request their crime scene unit. All the way 639 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,440 Speaker 1: in South Carolina, this is a good five or six 640 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:25,759 Speaker 1: hundred miles away, they blocked traffic on I twenty and 641 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:29,920 Speaker 1: they held it. They held that crime scene until CSI 642 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,839 Speaker 1: from South Carolina could drive all the way from there 643 00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:37,080 Speaker 1: to the far western part in this rural, isolated area 644 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 1: of Alabama in order to process this scene. And when 645 00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 1: the police arrived there, the sun was going down, it 646 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,400 Speaker 1: was getting dark, and they couldn't process the scene immediately. 647 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:48,319 Speaker 1: They had to wait till the next morning. But during 648 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 1: that time they began to make plans, and all of 649 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,920 Speaker 1: these agencies got together and worked and wound up getting 650 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,000 Speaker 1: a conviction in this case. And mister Jones right now, 651 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:04,000 Speaker 1: he sits on Death Road in South Carolina. I'm Joseph 652 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is body bagsh