WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 21 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:02.920 You know what I love prop is live shows. Live 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:07.280 podcast shows are incredible, especially when you can watch them 0:00:07.280 --> 0:00:10.480 whenever you want. M that's what we're doing right now. 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:13.120 Are you saying we should do one? Yeah, a virtual 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:16.360 live podcast show at moment house dot com slash Behind 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:20.759 the Bastards on February sevent at six pm PST. You 0:00:20.800 --> 0:00:22.880 don't have to watch the show live, but you can 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:25.119 and participate in a fun Q and A, or you 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:27.280 can watch the link for up to a week later 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:30.400 after it airs. So check out our virtual show and 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:33.360 buy tickets at moment house dot com. Slash Behind the 0:00:33.440 --> 0:00:37.880 Bastards will also be linking the ticket link in our 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:40.960 episode descriptions for Behind the Bastards. You can check that 0:00:41.040 --> 0:00:43.640 out and see y'all there. Well, you'll see us there, 0:00:43.920 --> 0:00:47.520 you will see there. Hey, it's de Lieva. I'm here 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:49.800 to tell you about my brand new podcast, De Liva 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:52.400 at your service. I'll be sitting down with the world's 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:55.240 most inspiring minds to uncover what makes them take and 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:57.720 what they've learned from the obstacles life has thrown at them, 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:01.360 including Sir Elton John. After a lot of upsets, a 0:01:01.360 --> 0:01:04.120 lot of disappointments, a lot of betrayals. It's turned out 0:01:04.160 --> 0:01:06.560 to be the most wonderful life right now that I've 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:09.720 could ever imagined. Listen to do a Leap at your 0:01:09.720 --> 0:01:13.000 service on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:17.920 wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jake Calbern, host of 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:21.160 deep Cover. Our new season is about a lawyer who 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:25.080 helped the mob run Chicago. He bribed judges and even 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:28.240 helped a hit man walk free until one day when 0:01:28.240 --> 0:01:31.280 he started talking with the FBI and promised that he 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:34.520 could take the mob down. I've spent the past year 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:36.720 trying to figure out why he flipped and what he 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:39.520 was really after. Listen to deep Cover on the I 0:01:39.600 --> 0:01:46.520 Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:48.520 Robert Evans here and I wanted to let you know. 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:52.240 This is a compilation episode. So every episode of the 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:56.040 week that just happened is here in one convenient and 0:01:56.160 --> 0:01:59.360 with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:01.760 in a long wretch if you want. If you've been 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:03.920 listening to the episodes every day this week, there's gonna 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:06.000 be nothing new here for you, but you can make 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:13.600 your own decisions. Welcome back, to it could happen here 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:17.760 a podcast about things falling apart, and occasionally even about 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:20.720 how to put some other things back together. Um. Today 0:02:20.800 --> 0:02:24.360 we're gonna be talking about something that is increasingly a 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:27.640 part of what we like to call the crumbles around here, 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:31.040 which is the health care system in this country, in 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:34.200 the hospital system in this country as it uh kind 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:37.600 of gets crunched by COVID. UM. And we're gonna particularly 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:41.000 talk about a really critical aspect of our entire medical 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:44.880 infrastructure that a lot of people don't know about traveling nurses. Uh. 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:48.000 And with me today is our guest, and and you 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:51.200 are a traveling nurse from New York to California all 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:53.720 around the country. UM, thanks for being on the show. 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:57.920 Glad to be here. Yeah. So, I live in Colorado 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:01.320 and I was at a right ular staff nurse UM 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:05.280 until COVID hit. And you know, at that time, we 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:09.359 expected it to crunch everywhere. UM, but my home hospital, 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:13.000 like many places that worked on the coast, UM ended 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:15.799 up being really empty when everybody locked down and stopped 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:18.760 getting into car accidents and going to parties and all 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:20.519 of the other things that bring people into the e 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:22.919 R and I see us um. So At that time, 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:25.560 I quit my full time job and went to New 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:28.560 York as a travel nurse. UM. And then I've been 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:32.000 dancing around hotspots since then. So New York, Texas, Ohio, 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:36.400 rural New Mexico. UM. I just finished my third contract 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:39.960 in California. I've been up to Oregon. So UM. I've 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:42.680 seen the health care system working and not working in 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:46.400 a lot of different places, and also like how much 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:50.080 disparity there is different communities related to covid as in 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:52.760 the health care that we can provide. Yeah, and I 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:54.840 am kind of before we move on to some of 0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:57.680 the specific things going on with travel nurses, what is 0:03:57.720 --> 0:04:00.880 your sense of like how often are you in a 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:03.880 place and feel like, well, this the hospital system here, 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:06.360 this particular hospital, they're they're like right on the edge 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:11.200 of a breaking point most of the time. Okay, that's 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:16.840 good to know where your seatbelts, folks. Yeah, I mean, 0:04:17.000 --> 0:04:21.000 particularly since everyone was able to get vaccinated right Like 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:25.000 to me, I really feel like that that that point 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:27.120 of like the tipping point of like the quote unquote 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:30.839 crumbles kind of like after everybody was was able to 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:34.240 get their second vaccination, UM, and we had so much 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:37.240 hope last May and June and things were reopening and 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:39.000 it was kind of like, wow, things could go back 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:43.600 to normal. Um, and then like, I don't believe that's 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:47.240 going to happen. And since then, I've seen so much 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:49.960 more despair in my coworkers, and I've heard about so 0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:55.040 many more healthcare suicides, UM staff, nurses, travel nurses, arties, 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:59.400 other ancillary people, and you know, the kind of running 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:01.919 joke and all out of workplaces is like, well, I 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:03.960 hope I test positive for COVID because that would be 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:06.680 better than coming into work another day. Yeah, alright, I 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:08.160 hope I get hit by a car so I don't 0:05:08.200 --> 0:05:10.960 have to come in your job, I think, is what 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:14.280 a lot of people would the people who you know 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:18.560 are reasonable human beings and see what you're doing is 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:21.760 incredibly necessary, find that would find the work to be 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:24.320 something of a nightmare. I mean, it sounds like horrific 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:26.520 um to have to to deal with this. I mean, 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:29.400 it's it's it's not an easy job in the best 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:32.679 of times, being a nurse, but like with COVID and stuff, 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:36.839 it's it's just there's so much else on y'all's plates. Um. 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:38.800 And one of the things that has happened over the 0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:42.719 course of the last year or well almost two years now, UM, 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:46.400 is that from January twenty the advertised pay rates for 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:49.080 travel nurses around the country have gone up by about 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:53.640 sixty UM, which in staffing firms of you know, increase 0:05:53.640 --> 0:05:57.040 their building of hospitals by like so like this huge 0:05:57.120 --> 0:06:00.400 rays in what um travel nurses are demand ending and 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:03.680 what is getting paid out. And I think a reasonable 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:10.080 person would go, well, yeah, of course, um And yeah, 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:14.240 I think anybody would go any reasonable person would go, well, yeah, 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:16.840 of course, you guys deserve much more money than that 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:19.400 for what you're dealing with right now. UM. I have 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:21.599 no problem with this, But people who do have problems 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:26.040 with this are the American Hospital Association UM, among other 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:29.200 folks generally the folks who are seeing this primarily as well, 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:31.560 now we're spending more money issue as opposed to a, 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:36.200 hey maybe we don't have enough nurses, which right, yeah, 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:39.680 so I guess I have maybe a couple of comments 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:41.920 on that. So one of the things about trafical nurses, 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:45.240 so if if you're not in the travel field and 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:47.800 you say I want to change hospitals, even if you're 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:50.560 an experienced nurse, they will take between a month and 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:53.640 six months to go through their hiring process, and then 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:56.080 they will give you a week, two weeks, maybe four 0:06:56.120 --> 0:06:59.760 weeks of orientation. So that's a long process to hire 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:03.680 an Normally, for me as a travel nurse, I will 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:06.320 talk to a recruiter, I will say yes, I will 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:10.160 be on the road somewhere between four hours to twenty 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:13.760 four hours later, I will get to the hospital. I 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:16.000 will do a bunch of paperwork that is for compliance 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:18.720 and makes no difference at all. I will get between 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:22.400 two and six hours of orientation, which is basically, here's 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:24.680 the bathroom, here's the storeroom, this is what we're going 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:28.080 to audit in the charts. And then I'm expected to 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:35.320 take care of complex actively dying patients. So so you know, 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:38.040 people complain about how much we're getting paid, But if 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:40.560 you only have two hours of like where's the bathroom, 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:42.480 and like this is how most of the time when 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:44.240 you're spending with I t being like hey, I need 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:48.080 computer access, buddy, and then there you are and you're 0:07:48.080 --> 0:07:50.640 in the thick of it with no backup. You know, 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:52.680 so you already have to be an expert in your field, 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:54.320 and you have to be able to walk into an 0:07:54.360 --> 0:07:59.200 unfamiliar chaotic situation and hit the ground running immediately. So, yes, 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:02.320 making a lenning bucks an hour is a lot of money, 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:05.040 But I don't know that that's so super unreasonable for 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:09.560 two hours of Like yeah, it's now take care of 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:11.760 people who are actively dying and don't screw it up. 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:15.600 It's the way we're told the system is supposed to work, right, Like, 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:18.040 this is how capitalism is supposed to function. The demand 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:20.440 for something goes up, and the demand for nursing his 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:23.200 way the hell up, so the price goes up. Um, 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:27.280 if you believe in capitalism, like one assumes these people 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:30.480 who are responsible for you know, paying you and are 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:32.600 currently lobbying. So what's happening. I should go back because 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:35.640 we didn't note this. But the American Hospital Association and 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:38.199 a number of other folks are lobbying Congress right now 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:40.840 to put a cap on the amount of money that 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:46.040 traveling nurses UM can uh CAN can receive, and a 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:49.800 number of UM congress people have said that they're going 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:54.520 to be looking into the issue. Several states, Oregon, Illinois, Pennsylvania, Kansas, 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:58.680 and Kentucky have introduced legislation that's attempting to cap nurse 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:02.760 pay rates. So there's like this huge backlash attempting to 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:06.599 lock down the amount of money y'all can continue to 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:09.680 get paid UM because of all of the things. This 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:12.920 country I guess has money for the people dealing with 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:15.680 the I don't know what. I don't know how many 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:18.880 millions of additional sick and dying people UM are are 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:21.400 are kind of beyond what these folks are willing to 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:25.200 shell out for UM. And I got the size of that, 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:29.960 and I mean to clarify, so in a FEMA contract, 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:32.480 so what a lot of the contracts I take are. 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:36.840 So the nurse is making between a hundred and and 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:38.760 maybe you also have a tax free stipend or you 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:40.719 don't kind of depending on how you are in that. 0:09:41.440 --> 0:09:43.640 And then but the bill rate to the hospital is 0:09:43.720 --> 0:09:50.240 usually like so the legislation is against the agencies. The 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:53.360 agencies are making between forty. Of course, the agency is 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:55.320 then going to say, hey, well we aren't going to 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:57.840 pay you as much because we still want the same cut. Yeah. 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:02.439 My understanding, so the trickle down effect is likely going 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:06.600 to be travel nurse wages. But my understanding is it's 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:11.479 asking the FTC to take enforcement against the travel nurse agencies, 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:14.520 because the agencies, they're the ones that say they have 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:16.360 the person on the phone that says, hey, you have 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:19.400 these credentials, we want to send you to this hospital yes, 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:22.199 or now we've got this hotel arranged or we don't 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:23.959 or you know those types of and we're going to 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:26.040 do this type of on boarding. So they have their 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:29.440 own kind of infrastructure and they take, you know, half 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:33.240 of the cut. Some of those people are making a 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:36.079 lot of money too, Yeah, And it seems like it's 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:39.000 kind of the situation where the way this is being framed, 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:40.840 they're trying to crack down on these people who are 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:43.440 kind of profiteering or could be argued to be profiteering 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:46.680 off the situation um, rather than trying to cap the 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:49.959 amount that the nurses can make, so to speak, or 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:53.320 at least not by as much. But the overall effect 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:55.760 will be that because of the way these companies work, 0:10:55.840 --> 0:11:00.000 y'all will still wind up making less money. Um. Yeah, 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:04.080 how um Within the traveling nurse community, what is kind 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:06.800 of where are people right now with this? Like what 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:10.080 is what is kind of the mood? Um? So I 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:12.559 think there's a couple of things to note. So in 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:16.400 the FEMA contracts. They're usually sixty to seventy two contracts, 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:18.800 so you're working back to back to back to back. 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:23.320 So I'll do eight weeks sometimes. And most people are 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:26.440 not white women like me. This is mostly first and 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:30.440 second generation immigrants and generally people of color. Um. So, 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:33.400 these are not people that are saving for Lamborghinis. These 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:35.520 are people that are paying off their student loans because 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:37.920 a lot of them went to private nursing schools because 0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:40.280 that was kind of what was accessible to them because 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:44.440 all of the disparity and education and opportunities. These are 0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:46.920 people that are trying to pay off their mortgages. These 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:50.360 are people who are paying off their parents houses. Um. 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:53.640 So this kind of idea that like nurses are greedy 0:11:53.960 --> 0:11:57.400 is I think really unfair because most of us are 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:00.960 just trying to like, you know, a life that works. 0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:04.319 And also, you can't do eight hour contracts fifty two 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:07.160 weeks out of the year, no, I mean doing it 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:10.560 for any extended period of time. I've I've worked those 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:17.319 kind of hours in a generally less stressful working environment. 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:21.880 Um and it like it breaks you down, um over time, 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:24.720 Like you you can't do that and at any time 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:27.520 in your life, for one thing, like, um, and you 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:29.559 can't do that forever. And it sounds like this is 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:31.480 kind of a lot of people are taking it as 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:34.680 like this is an opportunity. I can get my parents 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:37.240 out of debt, I can I can get a house, Um, 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:38.880 I can say for my kids to I can pay 0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:41.560 off my own college. Like it's a chance for a 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:45.439 lot of these people by putting in an unbelievable amount 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:49.800 of effort to get ahead. Uh. And I can't can't 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:54.000 even imagine the frustration at seeing so many people be like, well, no, 0:12:54.240 --> 0:12:57.120 not so fast. And I mean one of the things 0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:01.680 that people are bringing up is right like it in 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:04.480 the same way that you know, we struggle to want 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:07.840 to pass minimum wage laws for the undocumented immigrants that 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:10.640 pick our food and you know, support this infrastructure that 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:13.600 is totally unseen now that we have, you know what 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:17.360 is mostly for stance second generation immigrants that are working 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:21.960 these FEMA contracts. Like you're targeting a section of the 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:24.760 population that are not the people that have doubled tripled 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:27.160 their wealth in the pandemic, right like, these are not 0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:30.040 all of the people that got the small business loans 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:33.920 that didn't need them, and you know and have are 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:36.599 just putting all of that money into stock, right, is 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:39.680 there not? These are people who just want a middle 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:43.680 class American dream and we're working, will work really really 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:47.880 hard for it. And I mean there these are people 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:50.760 who are asking, can I have the thing we're all promised? 0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:54.520 If I spend eighty hours a week watching people in 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:56.920 a lot of cases choke out their last fucking breaths, 0:13:57.559 --> 0:14:00.920 is that okay? And a lot of are saying, oh, 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:04.560 of course, not right. And you know, so we're taking 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:06.600 care of dying people while we're getting yelled at at 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:09.360 the phone of like is cursing a lot on the 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:13.120 show or yes, of course? Yeah. I mean I had 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:15.480 a family member saying, you're fucking imprisoning her on a 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:17.640 ventil lator. I'm going to come for you. Where do 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:22.680 you fucking live? You know we have to get security involved. Um, 0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:25.400 you know, we get death threats. I've had people like 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:29.800 threatened to find where I live and raped me. And 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:37.520 so I mean, yeah, taking care of your dying loved 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:40.000 one who also probably would say those same things to 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:41.880 me because I would say, hey, please be vaccinated and 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:44.160 they would say fuck you. But I'm still going to 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:45.960 do everything I can to take care of them, and 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:48.520 I'm going to do this abuse and like, yeah, if 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:50.520 I'm going to leave my home and the safety of 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:53.160 a hospital that works and go into these total cluster 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:56.960 fucks of hospitals where the educator has left, the manager 0:14:57.000 --> 0:14:59.560 has left, the director has left, so there's no leadership. 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:02.920 It's travelers, some of which are great, some of which 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:05.320 are also hot messes, and trying to take care of 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:07.160 these people. Then like, yes, I want to be paid 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:12.000 accordingly for it. Now, would I trade that for a 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:16.320 social um, a social safety net of health insurance because 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:20.200 I have to get private health insurance which is shady. Um, 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:22.680 I don't get any disability insurance. I have no stick 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:25.240 leave right because you're you're you're a pinch hitter. You're 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:28.760 not like salary anywhere. Yeah, but would I trade this 0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:32.880 high salary for a social safety net? Personally I would yes, 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:37.280 But I mean nobody's going to say, like, yes, you 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:39.360 will be able to retire with dignity if you play 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:42.080 by all of these rules. They don't believe that I 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:44.720 want to make the money. Yeah, it's I mean we're 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:46.920 all always in this kind of like yes, soccer way 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:49.600 as much as you can while it's coming situation, and 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:53.040 she's especially if you're especially if you're doing something you're 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:57.440 gonna need to recover from later, right Like, this is 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:01.120 I I you know, I've I've done overseas work. I 0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:04.720 understand kind of the nature of like trauma. And while 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:07.040 you're doing the job at the rate you're doing it, 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:09.920 you're also like pushing off a day of reckoning mentally 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:15.600 and not having a cushion of savings helps with that. Yeah, 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:17.600 Like in the middle of it, you're in it, and 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:21.160 then you know, sometimes it's weeks, sometimes it's months. Um, 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:23.960 I hiked the Colorado Trail for mental health, and half 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:26.960 of those nights I had I See you nightmares. So 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:29.760 I was in these beautiful the middle of over places 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:31.640 where everything was quiet. I would wake up with all 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:33.880 of the beeps and people dying in my head night 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:37.600 after night after night. You know. Yeah, I mean, yeah, 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:39.720 I'm angry that they don't want to compensate me for that, 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:42.080 because I mean, they're definitely not paying for my therapist. 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:45.560 They definitely like aren't giving me access to disability if 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:50.080 I need it, right Like, yeah, because obviously again you're 0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:53.720 you're a contractor effectively, Um, there's not like a union 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:57.440 for traveling nurses? Is there or Am I wrong about that? No? So, 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:01.360 I mean the only thing you have each you're negotiating power. Um. 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:04.639 So I have eight years of experience between emergency and 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:09.159 I see you um and a lot of very um, 0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:12.639 big and highly regarded hospitals. So I'm a hot commodity 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:16.000 to them, so I can kind of pick and choose, um, 0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:17.960 who I want to work with compared to someone that 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:22.120 has less desirable specialties. Not that those specialties don't also 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:24.720 work as hard, but they're just harder. They're easier to staff, 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:27.800 so therefore they're not It's a it's a market things. 0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:31.600 I definitely don't believe that my specialties are more like 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:35.960 inherently valuable, just in terms of the market. Um. So 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:38.480 you know, so I get I can I have the 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:42.119 luxury of turning down contracts that aren't what I want. 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:45.440 But I mean, I have no idea what I'm walking into. 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:49.720 So on Monday, I'll walk into somewhere. Um, they said, 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:52.400 you'll do some paperwork, you'll get your orientation, you'll have 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:54.520 it'll all be it'll be a busy day and then 0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:56.719 you'll be on your own. And I have no idea. 0:17:57.400 --> 0:17:59.520 Sometimes you're oriented in one unit and you never see 0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:03.040 that united get so um and I you know, you 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:06.120 have no idea what you're walking into. And how how 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:10.119 long are these contracts? Generally? For so, before COVID, the 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:14.959 standard nursing contract was thirteen weeks UM. Since COVID, a 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:17.080 lot of them are shorter. And I've only done short 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:19.639 contracts because if it's a decent place, then I can 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:23.119 renew and stay longer usually, and if it's a bad place, 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:25.679 then I'm pretty happy to get out early. UM. So 0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:29.119 I do between four and eight week contracts, and I 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:33.000 usually do sixty plus hours a week. Is there any 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:36.960 kind of like organization that you've seen come together a 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:40.240 little more between people who are doing this this gig 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:42.800 since you don't have kind of representation. Is that something 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:45.440 that started to take form in the last two years 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:48.360 since COVID. I mean there's definitely a lot of talk 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:54.040 about it. Um. I think like those of us that 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:57.880 started traveling since the pandemic, you know, I would say 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:00.240 that I've only done crisis contracts, like I've never done 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:04.240 a normal thirteen week, thirty six hour a week, not 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:10.000 crisis assignment, like I've only gone into the ship show hotspots. Um. 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:13.080 And so therefore, like my needs and desires are different 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:16.159 than somebody who likes that previous lifestyle. So in some 0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:18.440 ways it's a little bit hard for us to kind 0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:22.040 of agree on common goals because we have a lot 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:26.639 of different you know, we're very diverse group of nurses. Um. Definitely, 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:29.239 the million Nurse March is kind of a step towards that. 0:19:29.760 --> 0:19:31.639 Tell me about that what what is this because I 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:35.480 just learned about this pretty recently. Yeah, so I dropped 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:37.359 off the grid for the last five days, which was 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:39.800 fantastic for me, but it means I'm also just starting 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:43.199 to figure it out. Um. So the kind of general 0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:47.359 idea is that you know, we have I think, uh, 0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:49.600 I'm hopefully I don't get it wrong. Four millions some 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:51.639 nurses in the country, a huge number of nurses in 0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:54.080 the country, and a huge number of dropping out. Um, 0:19:55.080 --> 0:19:57.720 you know, hundreds of thousands quit last year. They I 0:19:57.760 --> 0:20:00.840 think one estimate is five thousand make quit this year 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:04.680 and we were just so people know, tens of thousands 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:10.720 of nurses understaffed before COVID nation. Yes, right right, Um, 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:12.359 And you know, I think one of the things to 0:20:12.520 --> 0:20:16.280 understand too is that like if you work I don't know, 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:19.200 what's what's the normal type of job that people work. 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:20.520 I don't know. If you work at the d m V, 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:23.440 a bookman, Oh right. If you work at the d 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:25.960 m V and the d m V is slow, you 0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:28.080 will still stay there eight hours and you just get 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:30.440 paid for your eight hours. If you are a normal 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:32.359 nurse and you work thirty six hours and the e 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:35.000 er is running slow, they could say, we're just canceling 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:36.200 you for the rest of the day, go home. We 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:39.199 won't pay you for those classics hours. And so, like 0:20:39.240 --> 0:20:43.840 we've always had pretty like flexible, like we've never had 0:20:43.960 --> 0:20:45.840 like most of the places I've worked, I've never had 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:48.520 guaranteed hours. And so one of the reasons to go 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:50.479 to travel contracts too is also so you can at 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:52.600 least have guaranteed hours. So there's a lot of kind 0:20:52.640 --> 0:20:57.200 of protections that nurses have never really had, like guaranteed hours, UM, 0:20:57.400 --> 0:21:01.200 like staff ratios, so some states California and organ or 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:03.600 um two of them. If you go into the I 0:21:03.680 --> 0:21:05.600 c U, which is the highest level of care, so 0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:09.200 people are actively dying, actively unstable, things can go bad 0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:12.800 within seconds. Usually it's a one nurse will have two 0:21:12.800 --> 0:21:16.320 patients UM, which is pretty much all you can handle 0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:19.240 because they're on multiple trips, multiple types of life's the 0:21:19.280 --> 0:21:23.000 part keeping them alive. So ventilators UM being the one 0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:26.760 that we see the most UM, and it's really your 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:29.960 responsibility to know every inch of that person's body UM 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:31.960 and everything going on with them, and you really direct 0:21:31.960 --> 0:21:35.440 a lot of their care UM. So two to one 0:21:35.480 --> 0:21:38.240 kind of makes a lot of sense since the pandemic 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:40.720 and not having enough nurses, sometimes that's slid to three 0:21:40.720 --> 0:21:43.360 to one or even in bad situations four to one. 0:21:44.160 --> 0:21:48.320 So one of the statistics that UM. One of the 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:52.480 kind of nurse influencers and comedians Nurse Blake talks about 0:21:53.160 --> 0:21:56.680 UM is that for every additional patient that a nurse 0:21:56.720 --> 0:21:58.720 takes on and I believe he's talking about medstart not 0:21:58.800 --> 0:22:03.800 I su that patients UM mortality increases by seven percent. 0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:08.400 So yeah, so asking a nurse to do more with 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:11.919 less is not just like hey, just suck it up, 0:22:11.920 --> 0:22:15.959 be busier. This is actively contributing to people's disability and 0:22:16.000 --> 0:22:19.639 early deaths. So one of the things that the millionaiurse 0:22:19.720 --> 0:22:23.520 march Um wants to talk about is man man dated 0:22:23.640 --> 0:22:26.680 staffing ratios. So I see you would be two to one. 0:22:27.720 --> 0:22:29.760 MED starch is usually four to one. I think you 0:22:29.840 --> 0:22:32.360 are they're asking for three to one UM. So these 0:22:32.359 --> 0:22:36.080 have been studied by the American Nurses Association UM and 0:22:36.160 --> 0:22:41.600 other sort of UM nursing organizations UM. And not only 0:22:41.640 --> 0:22:43.760 do they make your job as a nurse so much 0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:45.560 better because we go into nursing because we want to 0:22:45.560 --> 0:22:49.199 fix things and take care of people. We want good outcomes, 0:22:49.320 --> 0:22:52.320 right Like, you don't go into nursing to just run 0:22:52.320 --> 0:22:54.280 around with your head cut off and watch everyone die, 0:22:54.720 --> 0:22:57.480 right Like, that's terrible. You go into nursing because you 0:22:57.480 --> 0:23:00.040 want the people to get better under your care, and 0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:01.520 you want to be able to give them that. And 0:23:01.560 --> 0:23:03.960 so when you're asked to take care of more patients 0:23:03.960 --> 0:23:06.760 than you're able to, you're not able to do that 0:23:06.840 --> 0:23:10.680 and it's just crushes you. UM. So not only is 0:23:10.680 --> 0:23:14.119 it better for nurse satisfaction, it also saves patients lives 0:23:14.680 --> 0:23:18.719 and also prevents things that will give cause lasting disability 0:23:18.800 --> 0:23:23.520 like ventilator associated pneumonia or bed sores or delirium, things 0:23:23.560 --> 0:23:28.359 like that. So you know, mandating UM patient ratios is 0:23:28.560 --> 0:23:30.880 one of the really big things that the Million Nurse 0:23:31.080 --> 0:23:33.600 Marks is for Um, there's a lot of talk about 0:23:33.600 --> 0:23:37.680 pay and living wages. You know, like every section. Housing 0:23:37.720 --> 0:23:40.920 prices and inflation have gone through the roof because you've 0:23:40.960 --> 0:23:43.119 got to like be renting a spot whenever you're like 0:23:43.160 --> 0:23:46.359 the hospital only putting you up right well, and for 0:23:46.440 --> 0:23:49.840 staff nurses to write like if you're you know, maybe 0:23:49.880 --> 0:23:52.440 you're maybe they gave you a two percent raise, but hey, 0:23:52.480 --> 0:23:56.679 rent increase. UM. I used to be on the interview 0:23:56.680 --> 0:23:58.600 board at my old hospital and we would just tell 0:23:58.640 --> 0:24:01.359 people like, if you're moving to at Denver as a 0:24:01.400 --> 0:24:03.560 single person, we lose most of our nurses because they 0:24:03.560 --> 0:24:05.640 haven't looked at housing. So like they'll accept a job 0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:07.000 and then they'll look for a place to live and 0:24:07.040 --> 0:24:09.439 be like, oh, I can't afford to live here. So hey, like, 0:24:10.040 --> 0:24:12.080 I mean, we can't ask if you're single moving here, 0:24:12.119 --> 0:24:14.040 but like you probably can't afford to live here with 0:24:14.080 --> 0:24:20.639 what we're going to pay you. I mean, cool, I I. 0:24:20.880 --> 0:24:25.280 It's just it's so eternally frustrating that like the one 0:24:25.359 --> 0:24:28.399 thing that everybody, when you sit them down, agrees is 0:24:28.720 --> 0:24:34.280 incontrovertibly necessary medical care. Um. We can agree on a 0:24:34.320 --> 0:24:37.320 lot of things, but not how to make sure that 0:24:37.400 --> 0:24:41.040 people doing it have a good quality of life and 0:24:41.080 --> 0:24:43.600 good income, Like we can. We have all these fun, 0:24:43.760 --> 0:24:46.560 fun rules that make it possible to charge X number 0:24:46.560 --> 0:24:49.479 of thousand dollars for a dose of insulin um, But 0:24:49.520 --> 0:24:51.440 we don't just have a law that's like, hey, if 0:24:51.640 --> 0:24:55.040 if you're working full time as a nurse, uh, maybe 0:24:55.200 --> 0:24:58.159 you shouldn't have to be housing insecure. I don't know 0:24:58.400 --> 0:25:00.359 how do you make that into a law, but it 0:25:00.400 --> 0:25:03.040 seems like there should be some option for a country 0:25:03.040 --> 0:25:06.000 that can make some of the things we make. Yeah, 0:25:06.119 --> 0:25:10.040 I mean tying wages to housing prices. It seems like 0:25:10.160 --> 0:25:12.760 I don't know, not being an economist and not being 0:25:12.760 --> 0:25:15.359 an administrator, like that sounds super easy to me, Like 0:25:15.800 --> 0:25:21.080 goes everybody gets a fifteen percent race, Like I'm sure 0:25:21.080 --> 0:25:23.639 it's more complicated than that, but it seems super simple 0:25:23.680 --> 0:25:26.560 to send you guy around with a stick to threaten 0:25:26.640 --> 0:25:29.679 landlords when they raise rent. Like there's we can debate 0:25:29.720 --> 0:25:34.440 the answers to this. What do you think I mean, 0:25:34.640 --> 0:25:36.960 not not that like you have any sort of comprehensive 0:25:37.000 --> 0:25:38.960 knowledge of all of the people doing this, but like, 0:25:39.680 --> 0:25:42.440 do you think there's a possibility of like a wildcat strike, 0:25:42.520 --> 0:25:44.600 which is again for people who maybe aren't is when 0:25:44.640 --> 0:25:50.120 there's a strike of workers who are not unionized. UM. 0:25:50.160 --> 0:25:53.240 I mean to some extent, with everybody quitting to do 0:25:53.320 --> 0:25:56.040 travel nursing, it's not so different. I mean some students 0:25:56.119 --> 0:26:01.840 have lost of their staff. Yeah, some like when a 0:26:01.960 --> 0:26:04.800 unit says, oh, well, the last of my staff, I'm 0:26:04.880 --> 0:26:09.200 kind of like, well, you did better than most, you know. UM. 0:26:09.280 --> 0:26:12.600 So in some ways it's already happening. And in that 0:26:12.720 --> 0:26:16.480 same way, I am seeing hospitals give better extent incentives 0:26:16.520 --> 0:26:21.280 to their nurses that have stayed um, either retention bonuses 0:26:21.640 --> 0:26:25.600 or UM increasing bonuses for pick for core staff, picking 0:26:25.680 --> 0:26:28.439 up extra shifts, UM, or kind of other perks like 0:26:28.480 --> 0:26:31.879 increasing education benefits or things like that. So I think 0:26:31.960 --> 0:26:34.919 hospitals are responding to like, hey, we don't want to 0:26:34.920 --> 0:26:38.119 lose these people to traveling, Like can we tip the 0:26:38.160 --> 0:26:40.440 balance a little bit? And I think, you know, overall 0:26:40.480 --> 0:26:45.200 hospital leadership is moving slower than they need to UM. 0:26:45.240 --> 0:26:47.320 But I mean at least they're moving a little bit. 0:26:48.320 --> 0:26:49.880 So I mean it's in that way I can see 0:26:49.880 --> 0:26:52.720 a wildcat strike UM, just coming from the kind of 0:26:52.800 --> 0:26:58.560 labor forces at play UM. And I could and I 0:26:58.560 --> 0:27:01.119 mean there were one the hospitals in the South, I 0:27:01.119 --> 0:27:06.760 think it was Alabama. All of their staff, their staff coordinated, um, 0:27:06.840 --> 0:27:10.400 so that the ship that was on agreed to stay 0:27:10.480 --> 0:27:13.280 late because you can't because abandoning patients, Um, you can 0:27:13.280 --> 0:27:15.520 put your license at risk. Right, So we all walked 0:27:15.560 --> 0:27:17.920 off in the middle of a shift and said fuck 0:27:17.960 --> 0:27:21.560 you to the hospital. Patients died then, like our licenses 0:27:21.600 --> 0:27:23.480 at risk. So we also have to kind of balance 0:27:23.520 --> 0:27:26.600 that a little bit. But there was a hospital they 0:27:26.720 --> 0:27:28.679 organized for the day shift basically to stay as late 0:27:28.680 --> 0:27:30.639 as they needed, and night shift all stood outside of 0:27:30.640 --> 0:27:33.879 the hospital and I wouldn't refuse to clock it in. 0:27:34.080 --> 0:27:38.000 So sometimes these things are happening in small levels. Um. 0:27:38.119 --> 0:27:47.080 Also um really interesting, yeah, because it is like yeah, um, 0:27:47.119 --> 0:27:48.720 I mean, and that is like such a tough thing 0:27:48.760 --> 0:27:50.920 to balance. Just the idea that like, well, you are 0:27:51.119 --> 0:27:54.280 health care workers, like withholding your labor is a thing 0:27:54.320 --> 0:27:56.200 that's going to be necessary from time to time. There's 0:27:56.200 --> 0:27:58.520 also consequences for it that are not present if you're 0:27:58.560 --> 0:28:04.360 making I don't know, tires, you know. Yeah, And as 0:28:04.440 --> 0:28:07.000 much as teachers and nurses are the same, like I 0:28:07.359 --> 0:28:10.520 don't think our country cares about educating children as much 0:28:10.560 --> 0:28:12.560 as it cares about their parents dying, you know, like 0:28:15.520 --> 0:28:20.359 for better or worse. Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's another subject. UM. 0:28:20.480 --> 0:28:23.800 Is there anything else you wanted to get into today? Um? 0:28:23.840 --> 0:28:28.960 Before we we close out for the for the episode? UM, 0:28:29.000 --> 0:28:30.800 I mean, if it's okay with you and you can 0:28:30.960 --> 0:28:33.800 cut it if it's not. UM. You know, I try 0:28:33.840 --> 0:28:35.640 and tweet about kind of what's happening on the ground 0:28:36.880 --> 0:28:40.280 and the things that I'm seeing. UM. And I'm mostly 0:28:40.320 --> 0:28:41.920 finished with a book about the first year on the 0:28:41.960 --> 0:28:44.360 front line and seven different hospitals and kind of the 0:28:44.360 --> 0:28:47.520 disparities between you know, critical access in New Mexico versus 0:28:47.600 --> 0:28:51.760 trauma hospitals in you know, the Bay Area, and kind 0:28:51.760 --> 0:28:55.560 of what that first year looked like. UM. So if 0:28:55.560 --> 0:28:58.040 you want, you can follow me on Twitter. UM. It's 0:28:58.120 --> 0:29:01.040 an A N N E like and of green gables 0:29:01.160 --> 0:29:06.400 and urn, which is when I started traveling nursing, um, 0:29:06.440 --> 0:29:08.000 you know, and so that I kind of talked a 0:29:08.040 --> 0:29:10.479 little bit about like what I'm seeing and what's going on. UM. 0:29:10.520 --> 0:29:13.680 I was recently in an ear where you know, people 0:29:14.240 --> 0:29:16.920 often had to stay outside under the heat lamps for 0:29:16.960 --> 0:29:20.320 thirty hours waiting for hospital bed just because everything was impacked, 0:29:20.760 --> 0:29:22.840 so they couldn't even come inside the hospital and they 0:29:22.840 --> 0:29:25.960 were you know, waiting, um to get their appendix out 0:29:25.960 --> 0:29:31.320 and things like that. Again, where your seatbelts and a helmet, 0:29:32.240 --> 0:29:36.400 be real, be real careful right now, guys, right um? 0:29:36.440 --> 0:29:37.760 And I mean I think the other thing is the 0:29:37.760 --> 0:29:41.840 blood shortage. Um, So most hospitals are revising their guidelines 0:29:41.920 --> 0:29:44.320 of who won't get a blood transfusion, so you now 0:29:44.360 --> 0:29:46.840 have to be much more critical before they will give 0:29:46.880 --> 0:29:50.280 you a blood transfusion. So, um, there's a lot of 0:29:50.280 --> 0:29:53.080 politics around blood donation, but if you feel like you 0:29:53.120 --> 0:29:59.040 can donate blood, um, it's really desperately needed. And people 0:29:59.040 --> 0:30:02.240 are gonna where your seats because people are really going 0:30:02.280 --> 0:30:05.200 to legitimately die because we run out of blood. Yeah, 0:30:05.640 --> 0:30:08.760 um boy, how do you please wear your seatbelts folks, Um, 0:30:09.400 --> 0:30:11.440 just just hunker down for a little while. No, no 0:30:11.520 --> 0:30:15.800 new risky experiments in life for just a minute. Not 0:30:15.840 --> 0:30:19.200 the time to take up skydiving. Yeah yeah, maybe avoid that. 0:30:19.440 --> 0:30:23.600 Maybe don't go skiing, uh if you haven't gone skiing before. Um, 0:30:23.640 --> 0:30:25.440 I just did that and broke my wrist because I'm 0:30:25.520 --> 0:30:29.600 I'm exactly as dumb as the people. I'm trying to 0:30:29.600 --> 0:30:32.040 warn and then I guess just check in with your 0:30:32.080 --> 0:30:35.080 mental with your the mental health of your health care workers, 0:30:35.120 --> 0:30:38.840 because I mean, so many people have you know, I 0:30:38.880 --> 0:30:40.400 think a lot of us are dealing with at least 0:30:40.440 --> 0:30:42.680 passive sort of like fuck, maybe I should just drive 0:30:42.720 --> 0:30:44.680 off the road instead of going into work today sort 0:30:44.680 --> 0:30:47.600 of thoughts, you know. And oh, for a lot of us, 0:30:47.640 --> 0:30:50.080 that's just defleeting thought and then we get our ship together. 0:30:50.520 --> 0:30:52.440 But for some people it's going to be more than that. 0:30:52.640 --> 0:30:55.920 And you know, nursing is one of those things where 0:30:55.960 --> 0:30:59.640 people have to find themselves by their career and they 0:30:59.640 --> 0:31:02.080 need to pull in their lives saying like if you 0:31:02.120 --> 0:31:04.600 are never a nurse again, you are still valued, you 0:31:04.640 --> 0:31:09.000 are still loved. Just being alive, it's enough, and this 0:31:09.080 --> 0:31:11.520 is how you know we can help take care of 0:31:11.560 --> 0:31:13.600 you if you need to quit for three months, you know, 0:31:14.720 --> 0:31:18.560 um and supporting people with their intrinsic value rather than 0:31:18.600 --> 0:31:21.440 like you are only productive and valuable because you were 0:31:21.480 --> 0:31:23.400 there saving lives. Because I think a lot of us 0:31:23.480 --> 0:31:25.200 really get stuck in that, and a lot of us 0:31:25.200 --> 0:31:28.520 are drawn into nursing because we feel some lack of 0:31:28.680 --> 0:31:31.320 worthiness without it, you know, well, that's the hard thing 0:31:31.360 --> 0:31:33.600 to get other people to do, because in part this 0:31:33.720 --> 0:31:37.120 is a society where we just have such generally crummy 0:31:37.120 --> 0:31:39.720 attitudes towards mental health. But like we're great at at 0:31:39.800 --> 0:31:42.680 saying things like, oh, you know, there's a pandemic. Our 0:31:42.720 --> 0:31:45.520 healthcare workers are heroes. You're all heroes because of the 0:31:45.520 --> 0:31:47.640 work that you're doing. The work makes you a hero, 0:31:47.800 --> 0:31:50.680 as opposed to saying, hey, thank you for doing that. 0:31:51.320 --> 0:31:53.320 I know things are still fucked up right now, but 0:31:53.360 --> 0:31:55.480 if you decide you got to like take a break 0:31:55.680 --> 0:31:59.520 or whatever, you know, you're you're you're, that doesn't mean 0:31:59.600 --> 0:32:02.320 you like what you did was still wonderful and you're 0:32:02.360 --> 0:32:04.560 still great and valuable, and maybe the best thing is 0:32:04.600 --> 0:32:07.320 for you to take that break and not drive yourself 0:32:07.360 --> 0:32:12.880 off of a cliff. Yeah, yeah, that's that's harder to 0:32:12.920 --> 0:32:16.280 get people to like way of banners that say outside 0:32:16.280 --> 0:32:23.760 of their apartment complexes, right banging on pots, to like 0:32:23.880 --> 0:32:25.960 let healthcare workers know that no matter what they do, 0:32:26.000 --> 0:32:30.080 their valued members of the community that people love. Um. 0:32:30.080 --> 0:32:32.800 But yeah, all right, well, and thank you so much 0:32:32.840 --> 0:32:36.720 for talking with us today. UM. I hope, uh you 0:32:36.720 --> 0:32:40.200 you hold together and help the people in your life 0:32:40.200 --> 0:32:42.200 hold together, which is all any of us can really 0:32:42.200 --> 0:32:46.000 do other than we're a seatbelt. Yeah, and thank you 0:32:46.040 --> 0:32:48.160 for being a part of the conversation, and thank you 0:32:48.200 --> 0:32:50.560 for you know, listening to hard things. And you know 0:32:50.840 --> 0:32:53.560 that's one thing that I think we really appreciate. It 0:32:53.640 --> 0:32:56.479 is to people who will actually listen with open hearts 0:32:56.520 --> 0:32:59.920 and will witness this with us so that we're in 0:33:00.000 --> 0:33:08.840 on a loan in it kick off to the biggest 0:33:08.840 --> 0:33:11.080 football game of the next year. It's just hours away. 0:33:11.200 --> 0:33:12.760 This is your last chance to get in on the 0:33:12.800 --> 0:33:15.719 action until next season with Draft Kings sports Book, an 0:33:15.760 --> 0:33:18.440 official sports betting partner of Super Bowl fifty six and 0:33:18.560 --> 0:33:20.760 in honor of Super Bowl fifty six, Draft Kings is 0:33:20.760 --> 0:33:23.160 giving new customers fifty six to one odds on either 0:33:23.200 --> 0:33:25.560 Cincinnati or l A. That's just five dollars and get 0:33:25.600 --> 0:33:28.200 two in free bets if your team wins. 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In 0:34:17.800 --> 0:34:20.919 Connecticut called eight eight seven eight nine seven seven seven seven, 0:34:21.000 --> 0:34:23.759 or visit CCPG dot org slash chat. In New York 0:34:23.760 --> 0:34:26.200 call eight seven seven eight hope and why, or text 0:34:26.200 --> 0:34:30.280 hope and why for six seven three six nine. Okay, 0:34:30.360 --> 0:34:32.319 it's de lieva. I'm here to tell you about my 0:34:32.400 --> 0:34:36.920 brand new podcast De Relifa at your Service, I'll be 0:34:36.960 --> 0:34:39.760 sitting down with the world's most inspiring minds to uncover 0:34:39.800 --> 0:34:42.880 what makes them tick, what they've learned from their successes, failures, 0:34:42.880 --> 0:34:47.120 and the obstacles life has thrown at them. But going 0:34:47.200 --> 0:34:50.520 deep with people revolutionizing not just their own industries, but 0:34:50.640 --> 0:34:54.759 also culture more broadly. From Lisa Today, the author redefining 0:34:54.760 --> 0:34:57.240 what it means to tell women's stories, to the fashion 0:34:57.320 --> 0:35:03.160 industry virtuoso Olivier Roosting. You'll even hear me break bread 0:35:03.200 --> 0:35:06.160 with some of the most iconic and disseous names in 0:35:06.280 --> 0:35:09.960 pop culture, like Sir Elton John. After a lot of upsets, 0:35:09.960 --> 0:35:12.640 a lot of disappointments, a lot of betrayals, It's turned 0:35:12.640 --> 0:35:15.000 out to be the most wonderful life right now that 0:35:15.080 --> 0:35:17.520 I've could have ever imagined. I can't wait to share 0:35:17.560 --> 0:35:19.640 all of this and more with you. Listen to do 0:35:19.760 --> 0:35:22.479 a Leap at your Service on the I Heart Radio app, 0:35:22.680 --> 0:35:33.560 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Adoption of 0:35:33.600 --> 0:35:36.120 teens from foster care is a topic not enough people 0:35:36.120 --> 0:35:38.880 know about, and we're here to change that. I'm April, Din'tit, 0:35:39.000 --> 0:35:42.160 the host of the new podcast Navigating Adoption presented by 0:35:42.239 --> 0:35:45.919 adopt us Kids. Each episode brings you compelling, real life 0:35:45.920 --> 0:35:48.440 adoption stories told by the families that lived them, with 0:35:48.520 --> 0:35:53.200 commentary from experts. Visit adopt us Kids dot org, slash podcast, 0:35:53.280 --> 0:35:56.680 or subscribe to Navigating Adoption presented by adopt Us Kids, 0:35:56.880 --> 0:35:58.640 brought to you by the U. S. Department of Health 0:35:58.640 --> 0:36:01.440 and Human Services, Administration for Children and Families and the 0:36:01.480 --> 0:36:12.279 ACT Council. It could happen. Here is the podcast that 0:36:12.320 --> 0:36:15.520 you're listening to right now. I'm Robert Evans. All right, 0:36:15.719 --> 0:36:17.719 that's that's my job done. Who what are we? What 0:36:17.760 --> 0:36:22.560 are we doing? What are we doing today? Hey? What's up? Hey? Andrew? 0:36:22.640 --> 0:36:27.839 Back at it again with another podcast. UM. Today, we're 0:36:27.840 --> 0:36:31.200 doing something a little bit different from the previous episodes 0:36:31.200 --> 0:36:33.160 that I've done. We're having a bit more of an 0:36:33.680 --> 0:36:39.240 open discussion about sitting book that has been passed around 0:36:39.400 --> 0:36:46.920 for about a decade now and has polarized UM members 0:36:47.000 --> 0:36:52.319 of the anarchist community. UM can put it that way. UM. 0:36:52.400 --> 0:36:56.800 Today we'll be talking about the book the infamous uh 0:36:56.920 --> 0:37:05.600 pollemic Dessert by anonymal Us. For those who, uh, you know, 0:37:05.880 --> 0:37:12.200 not aware of this extremely controversial text, Desert is a 0:37:13.200 --> 0:37:16.920 nihilist anarchist text for this published in two thousand eleven 0:37:17.680 --> 0:37:22.080 that is mainly directed at other anarchists and seeks to 0:37:22.080 --> 0:37:28.120 address issues of climate collapse and revolution. It became somewhat 0:37:28.160 --> 0:37:30.759 of a meme to tell folks to read Dessert. I'm 0:37:30.800 --> 0:37:32.839 not sure when that was, but I just remember seeing 0:37:32.840 --> 0:37:38.919 it a lot um I think in yeah around read 0:37:38.920 --> 0:37:42.840 Desert became a name, yeah yeah, all over Twitter and 0:37:43.600 --> 0:37:51.319 Instagram and credit. But of course, being a thing that 0:37:51.400 --> 0:37:55.640 exists on the Internet, people who naturally became torn on 0:37:55.680 --> 0:37:58.399 the subject of it. And so there are a lot 0:37:58.400 --> 0:38:03.560 of perspectives and innions and think pieces about Desert, some 0:38:03.840 --> 0:38:06.680 more or less accurate than others. But we are here 0:38:06.760 --> 0:38:11.479 to discuss the book, all personal experiences reading it, things 0:38:11.480 --> 0:38:14.480 we think it gets right and wrong, and what we 0:38:14.480 --> 0:38:21.960 could potentially looen going forward. So I would say the 0:38:22.040 --> 0:38:29.319 floor is yours, whoever wants to go first. I mean, 0:38:29.400 --> 0:38:32.560 I'm a huge fan of the quote that the book 0:38:32.760 --> 0:38:35.200 takes it, or that the that it takes its name from, 0:38:35.200 --> 0:38:38.000 which comes from you know, Tacitus, who was a dude 0:38:38.040 --> 0:38:41.400 writing in the Roman period um and the exact quote 0:38:41.560 --> 0:38:45.120 that it comes from is and he's talking Tacitus is 0:38:45.120 --> 0:38:48.120 talking about the Roman Empire, robbers of the world. Now 0:38:48.160 --> 0:38:51.560 that the earth is insufficient for their all devastating hands, 0:38:51.600 --> 0:38:54.279 they probe even the sea. If their enemy is rich, 0:38:54.360 --> 0:38:57.200 they are greedy. If he is poor, they thirst for dominion. 0:38:57.480 --> 0:39:01.080 Neither East nor West has satisfied them a loan of mankind. 0:39:01.160 --> 0:39:04.880 They are equally covetous of poverty and wealth, robbery, slaughter, 0:39:04.960 --> 0:39:08.120 and plunder. They falsely name empire. They make a desert 0:39:08.200 --> 0:39:13.600 and they call it peace. Huh, good ass quote. It 0:39:13.719 --> 0:39:17.880 is a it is a solid Yeah, And obviously I 0:39:17.920 --> 0:39:21.120 think people living in the shadows of every empire that's 0:39:21.120 --> 0:39:25.560 ever existed can identify with that quote. Um, it's it's 0:39:25.600 --> 0:39:31.520 a powerful kind of central idea to hang your extended essay. 0:39:31.680 --> 0:39:33.200 I don't really know what the best term to refer 0:39:33.239 --> 0:39:37.520 to it as all. It's it's it's a long essay. Yeah, 0:39:37.520 --> 0:39:40.560 it's a very long essay. As we talked about kind 0:39:40.560 --> 0:39:43.759 of coming into this, it's extremely two thousand tens um 0:39:44.120 --> 0:39:48.120 three Arabs spring pre all the big uprisings and revolts 0:39:48.160 --> 0:39:54.200 we had in twenty nineteen, and Um, there's definitely some 0:39:54.239 --> 0:39:57.160 stuff that it gets very right, and I think kind 0:39:57.200 --> 0:39:59.560 of One of the ways in which it's had an 0:39:59.600 --> 0:40:02.800 impact on me is kind of I've I've thought about 0:40:03.200 --> 0:40:06.120 what happens to sort of culture as the result of 0:40:06.800 --> 0:40:10.279 this kind of Hollywood engine that is heavily tied up 0:40:10.360 --> 0:40:14.719 with the United States military Industrial complex, UM, as a 0:40:14.840 --> 0:40:18.719 process of desertification of ideas and the ability to like 0:40:19.400 --> 0:40:23.840 conceive of of of new futures. UM. That said, I 0:40:24.239 --> 0:40:28.040 I don't really I haven't reread it in a very 0:40:28.080 --> 0:40:33.040 long time and haven't really felt um called to in 0:40:33.280 --> 0:40:35.960 in many ways because I do think I don't know. 0:40:36.239 --> 0:40:38.000 I think there's an extent to which it's been kind 0:40:38.000 --> 0:40:42.279 of left behind. UM. Yeah, some of the things that 0:40:42.320 --> 0:40:45.759 have happened since I think Yeah. UM, I will say 0:40:45.760 --> 0:40:52.680 that as someone who really came into my owners an 0:40:52.800 --> 0:40:59.480 archist in like, although I had identified with it before, UM, 0:41:00.080 --> 0:41:02.160 when I had read the book, UM, I think it 0:41:02.200 --> 0:41:07.200 was in late late so I read the book first 0:41:07.200 --> 0:41:11.879 time I read it, and honestly, UM, it was some good, 0:41:12.960 --> 0:41:17.279 some bad, some some very outdated stuff, and also some 0:41:17.320 --> 0:41:20.920 stuff that I don't know, maybe the author felt it 0:41:21.080 --> 0:41:26.440 was like groundbreak and at the time, but you know, 0:41:26.600 --> 0:41:35.480 at this present stage just feels like common knowledge sense, 0:41:35.600 --> 0:41:39.400 you know, I mean it was. It was groundbreaking in 0:41:39.440 --> 0:41:42.960 a way for like climate realism, right, like this was 0:41:43.280 --> 0:41:46.239 this was written before you know, this is written before 0:41:46.280 --> 0:41:50.479 climate Leavy. This was written before um the Uninhabitable Earth. 0:41:50.560 --> 0:41:52.480 This was written before a lot of kind of the 0:41:52.560 --> 0:41:57.000 texts that view climate change is an absolute like this 0:41:57.080 --> 0:42:00.800 was written one year before hyper Objects. Just really interesting actually, 0:42:01.080 --> 0:42:02.960 because you know, the whole preface of that book is 0:42:03.000 --> 0:42:06.080 that climate changes is done, like it happened, where we're 0:42:06.120 --> 0:42:08.680 like there's no turning back the clock. And the Desert 0:42:08.719 --> 0:42:11.480 was written even before that, Like it was. It was 0:42:11.520 --> 0:42:14.520 one of the first things. Now and of course it's 0:42:14.760 --> 0:42:16.920 it's it's much more niche, but like it was if 0:42:16.960 --> 0:42:18.880 I if I look back in books that have like 0:42:18.920 --> 0:42:21.719 impacted me, it was it's one of the first books 0:42:21.760 --> 0:42:26.920 like that came out, like timeline wise to take climate changes, like, yeah, 0:42:27.040 --> 0:42:30.200 it's there's no saving it, like there's no living in 0:42:30.239 --> 0:42:32.520 the two thousands, there's no living in the nineties. Again, 0:42:32.640 --> 0:42:35.919 it's like things are like the world's not going to end, 0:42:36.040 --> 0:42:38.319 but things are going to get worse, right like and 0:42:38.320 --> 0:42:40.200 that and that is kind of a big, big part 0:42:40.200 --> 0:42:43.200 of the book because it's it's also it's also not 0:42:43.280 --> 0:42:46.759 pro collapse like it it doesn't take collapse is an absolute. 0:42:46.760 --> 0:42:50.280 It doesn't take. It doesn't it doesn't subscribe to global collapse. 0:42:50.560 --> 0:42:52.840 And that's one of the misconceptions I think people have 0:42:52.920 --> 0:42:55.360 about them. Yeah, that they's assume it is like this 0:42:56.120 --> 0:43:00.359 collapse dumorous, like miss rupic kind of text, but which 0:43:00.400 --> 0:43:03.480 I did not read it as that. I first read 0:43:03.480 --> 0:43:05.960 it around the same time you did, um And I 0:43:06.000 --> 0:43:07.720 read it as a part of a lot of books 0:43:07.719 --> 0:43:10.040 I was reading to prep for the show when we 0:43:10.080 --> 0:43:13.160 when we were writing our first five episodes on like 0:43:13.440 --> 0:43:16.960 on climate change and like the crumbles. So I read it, 0:43:17.000 --> 0:43:19.360 read it as a part of my kind of general 0:43:19.440 --> 0:43:22.160 research and yeah, like at that point it was already 0:43:22.239 --> 0:43:24.920 kind of mimified to be like, you know, like an 0:43:25.040 --> 0:43:29.520 anarcho nihilist like Dumer manifesto, and I read it, I'm like, 0:43:29.840 --> 0:43:34.120 that's not what it's saying at all. It's actually once 0:43:34.160 --> 0:43:36.879 I read it, I was like, I was really taking 0:43:36.920 --> 0:43:42.320 it back at how how easily um popular perceptions of 0:43:42.440 --> 0:43:46.440 a piece of media good um, I mean honestly corrupted 0:43:46.440 --> 0:43:49.960 beyond recognition. Yeah, you know, like if people are a 0:43:50.040 --> 0:43:52.720 bunch people are telling you know that it's that about 0:43:52.840 --> 0:43:55.319 is in texts or whatever. You know, it's kind of 0:43:56.760 --> 0:43:58.960 shake It kind of shakes you up to like actually 0:43:59.160 --> 0:44:01.960 consumed for yourself off and then read eyes. How did 0:44:02.000 --> 0:44:04.520 you all get that? Yeah? How did you read that? 0:44:05.000 --> 0:44:07.239 It is really interesting because I'm not even sure if 0:44:07.239 --> 0:44:08.719 they did read out of it or if that was 0:44:08.760 --> 0:44:10.560 the perception they had going into it. So they read 0:44:10.600 --> 0:44:13.480 it through that lens, and that lens basically you know, 0:44:13.600 --> 0:44:16.080 changed the text in their heads to fit that thing. 0:44:16.080 --> 0:44:19.040 Because it is really interesting how how it is so 0:44:19.120 --> 0:44:23.320 associated with like dumerism um yet if you like, engage 0:44:23.320 --> 0:44:25.920 in good faith with the text. It's very much not 0:44:26.000 --> 0:44:29.719 a Doumer manifesto anyway, although there are aspects of it 0:44:29.800 --> 0:44:33.560 that I am um that I think attitude wise, that 0:44:33.560 --> 0:44:35.400 I am critical of. But I think Chris was going 0:44:35.480 --> 0:44:37.320 to say something, yeah, so I was just like, I, 0:44:37.520 --> 0:44:40.360 I really I've always not liked this book, Like I 0:44:40.400 --> 0:44:44.000 read it back, and I think she doesn't een when 0:44:44.040 --> 0:44:47.480 it was first sort of like coming back, yeah, And 0:44:47.520 --> 0:44:49.040 I didn't like it then, and I read it this 0:44:49.080 --> 0:44:51.400 morning and I like it even less now than I 0:44:51.400 --> 0:44:54.160 did then, And I think I think I actually, I 0:44:54.200 --> 0:44:57.760 actually okay, so like, I think it's true that most 0:44:57.840 --> 0:44:59.480 of the text doesn't do the duomer thing. But I 0:44:59.520 --> 0:45:01.680 think I nderstand where people got it from, because you know, 0:45:01.719 --> 0:45:04.520 you have quotes in this like uh here, here's one. 0:45:04.840 --> 0:45:07.640 Yet I can already hear the accusations from my own camp, 0:45:08.120 --> 0:45:11.320 accusations of deserting the cause of revolution, deserting the struggle 0:45:11.360 --> 0:45:15.120 for another world. Such accusations are correct, I would rejoin 0:45:15.200 --> 0:45:17.680 that such millinarian and progressive myths are at the core 0:45:17.719 --> 0:45:20.480 of the expansion of power. And this is this is 0:45:20.480 --> 0:45:23.080 what I really like, I think from an ecological perspective, 0:45:23.080 --> 0:45:27.600 it's sort of okay. I strongly dislike Desert as an 0:45:27.600 --> 0:45:29.879 anarchist text because I think that's just wrong. I think, 0:45:30.239 --> 0:45:32.239 I think, I think there's there there's there's there's an 0:45:32.400 --> 0:45:37.360 ingrained defeatism in it that is so strong that it 0:45:36.719 --> 0:45:40.480 it it just it like warps the author's perception of 0:45:40.480 --> 0:45:43.120 the past, like you get these things where he's talking 0:45:43.120 --> 0:45:45.319 about these these kind of he's talking about like the 0:45:45.360 --> 0:45:47.799 you know what you call the classical anarchist movement from 0:45:48.040 --> 0:45:51.200 roughly like eighteen seventy two really sort of ends with 0:45:51.360 --> 0:45:53.880 the defeat of the anarchists in Spain and like seven 0:45:53.920 --> 0:45:56.399 and and he you know, they say things like from 0:45:56.640 --> 0:45:59.160 Spain pre nineteen thirty six to the Jewish anarchists in 0:45:59.200 --> 0:46:01.640 North America, the legalist of France, and the Italian and 0:46:01.640 --> 0:46:05.440 Anarcho synicst of Argentina. The inhabitants of anarchist counter societies 0:46:05.480 --> 0:46:09.200 were always, by definition active minorities. The minorities may have 0:46:09.200 --> 0:46:11.920 gotten larger in an instructionary moments, but they remained at 0:46:12.000 --> 0:46:16.760 minorities always, and that's just wrong. It's it's factually wrong. 0:46:17.360 --> 0:46:20.200 Like these these movements were not minorities, like the like 0:46:20.239 --> 0:46:23.920 the entire like the like the the largest union in 0:46:24.040 --> 0:46:26.800 France was the CG like in the early Action hundred 0:46:26.840 --> 0:46:29.640 was the the you do see it this deep that 0:46:30.160 --> 0:46:36.840 all all of the French, Spanish and Portuguese country speaking 0:46:36.840 --> 0:46:39.120 countries have a they have one union that's called the 0:46:39.200 --> 0:46:40.720 U G C and one union it's called the CGT. 0:46:40.760 --> 0:46:42.839 And I can't remember which ones which, but like like 0:46:42.880 --> 0:46:44.800 that was that was the largest union in France, and 0:46:44.840 --> 0:46:47.120 it was a syndicalist union right like it was like 0:46:47.200 --> 0:46:49.000 and there's you know the same thing with Argentina, right 0:46:49.040 --> 0:46:51.879 for a like for a while was the largest union 0:46:51.920 --> 0:46:54.600 in Argentina. And I think, and this, this is sort 0:46:54.600 --> 0:46:56.719 of my problem with this, which is that you know, 0:46:56.800 --> 0:47:00.080 this is a person who's basically like they talked, but 0:47:00.239 --> 0:47:01.960 like they are born in the seventies and they've they've 0:47:01.960 --> 0:47:05.360 they're writing this Steals in eleven in just the midst 0:47:05.360 --> 0:47:07.719 of the collapse of sort of like the complete and 0:47:07.719 --> 0:47:10.640 total destruction of the old anarchist movement, right, the anarchist 0:47:10.640 --> 0:47:13.160 movement that had been born out of sort of like 0:47:13.560 --> 0:47:18.680 the Zapatistas and the anti globalization movements. And they've been 0:47:18.719 --> 0:47:22.600 beaten so badly that you know, I mean, they were crushed, 0:47:22.600 --> 0:47:24.760 they were completely destroyed, and they've been beaten so badly 0:47:24.800 --> 0:47:29.200 that they they can't they literally can't imagine winning and 0:47:29.280 --> 0:47:34.560 think that like like revolution in general, like is essentially 0:47:34.239 --> 0:47:36.360 a secular theology. They repeat this over and over and 0:47:36.360 --> 0:47:39.000 over again. It's like revolution is theology, Revolution is a myth. 0:47:39.200 --> 0:47:41.839 And it's like and this is this is something that's 0:47:41.880 --> 0:47:44.319 just a product of defeat. It's not a product of 0:47:44.360 --> 0:47:49.560 sort of taking seriously the conditions that are emerging around them. 0:47:49.600 --> 0:47:51.120 And you know, I was talking about this before the 0:47:51.160 --> 0:47:55.480 recording it's like right after this is written, it's you 0:47:55.560 --> 0:47:57.840 get the movement of the squares, and then you get occupied, 0:47:58.280 --> 0:48:01.160 and it's like basically like major city in the world 0:48:01.160 --> 0:48:06.200 goes into revolt. The revolts are anarchists inspired, and you know, 0:48:06.320 --> 0:48:08.560 and and Desert like this is why Dessert vanishes for 0:48:08.600 --> 0:48:11.320 like six or seven years, because Desert is a piece 0:48:11.360 --> 0:48:14.720 that's written like it's it's it's a piece that's that's 0:48:15.680 --> 0:48:18.000 only happens in a in a very specific part of 0:48:18.000 --> 0:48:20.759 a revolutionary cycle, which is when like every everything has 0:48:20.760 --> 0:48:24.000 been crushed, all resistance has been crushed, everyone's losing hope, 0:48:24.040 --> 0:48:27.120 and then everyone starts reading Desert again, and then the 0:48:27.200 --> 0:48:31.839 revolutions restart, and and at that point, like once once 0:48:31.920 --> 0:48:34.680 once there's like you know, two thousand people in the 0:48:34.719 --> 0:48:38.279 streets again like fighting the cops, it becomes less and 0:48:38.360 --> 0:48:41.160 less sort of like like that that part of its 0:48:41.200 --> 0:48:44.600 analysis becomes less and less relevant, until you know, inevitably 0:48:44.600 --> 0:48:46.839 everyone like there's there's a defeat, and then everyone goes 0:48:46.840 --> 0:48:48.960 sort of like and I think I think that's why 0:48:49.000 --> 0:48:51.360 it has the duomer rep because it's it's it's the 0:48:51.400 --> 0:48:55.560 text that people read when you've been beaten in the streets. See, Yeah, 0:48:55.600 --> 0:48:58.799 that's that's an interesting look at it, because I mean 0:48:58.880 --> 0:49:02.680 I definitely agree with the revolution is an idea, like 0:49:02.920 --> 0:49:06.160 is a myth thing, like I I specifically within the 0:49:06.160 --> 0:49:08.160 context of the United States, which I believe that's what 0:49:08.200 --> 0:49:11.200 the books trying to mostly focus on. They do bring 0:49:11.320 --> 0:49:14.000 up other parts of the world and stuff. Um, but 0:49:14.120 --> 0:49:18.800 it's definitely written by in a by an American like citizen, 0:49:18.800 --> 0:49:21.760 and that that that is I mean, I mean that 0:49:21.760 --> 0:49:26.000 that could actually be wrong. Um. It may not be 0:49:26.040 --> 0:49:28.560 written by an American, but I in terms of reading it, 0:49:28.560 --> 0:49:30.280 it is kind of through like a very like Western 0:49:30.360 --> 0:49:34.440 lens of like revolutions not happening here. Um. And I 0:49:34.800 --> 0:49:37.920 definitely sympathize and agree with that viewpoint. And I mean 0:49:38.120 --> 0:49:39.480 if if you're in a point of being like it 0:49:39.520 --> 0:49:41.799 was two US and eleven then occupied happened and like yeah, 0:49:41.800 --> 0:49:44.600 but occupied in't. But that that also fits like every 0:49:44.680 --> 0:49:47.279 every attempt has not succeeded in this country to to 0:49:47.320 --> 0:49:50.040 get any kind of big, meaningful change that we can 0:49:50.239 --> 0:49:55.040 push towards something that's like post capitalist. Um. So yeah, 0:49:55.080 --> 0:49:57.000 I mean I do think I think it's it's it's 0:49:57.239 --> 0:50:01.320 it's mostly targeting people specifically like commun nests um or 0:50:01.400 --> 0:50:04.040 marks Lendonests who like are just waiting around for the 0:50:04.040 --> 0:50:06.600 revolution to happen and then don't do anything like that, right, 0:50:06.680 --> 0:50:10.440 that is that but but but but but I think 0:50:10.480 --> 0:50:12.239 this is this is why it's a text that's like 0:50:12.360 --> 0:50:16.880 that's not good for the moment, because our problem isn't that, like, 0:50:16.880 --> 0:50:19.319 like the problem right now isn't that there's no one 0:50:19.360 --> 0:50:22.240 like there's no uprising on the horizon, Like everyone's completely 0:50:22.239 --> 0:50:24.160 beaten down. No one's ever gonna go into his treats again. 0:50:24.640 --> 0:50:27.879 Our problem is that like there's just there's there's there's 0:50:27.920 --> 0:50:31.400 there's periodic uprisings everywhere, and every single time everyone is 0:50:31.400 --> 0:50:33.840 caught off guard, and every single time, no one is 0:50:33.840 --> 0:50:36.040 able to actually sort of mobilize off of it, and 0:50:36.280 --> 0:50:39.439 you know, like like like no, no on, no one's 0:50:39.480 --> 0:50:43.160 been able to like pivot it into something that's actually 0:50:43.200 --> 0:50:45.200 like transformative. But but but but I think that that's a 0:50:45.320 --> 0:50:49.799 very different problem then the problem that desert is because 0:50:49.840 --> 0:50:52.600 desert has already abandoned the possibility that an uprising can win. 0:50:53.440 --> 0:50:58.040 That's I mean, it's yeah, and then let's specifically been 0:50:58.120 --> 0:51:00.920 the idea of like global revolution shan right, that is, 0:51:00.960 --> 0:51:04.160 that is the thing that specifically targeting. They're saying smaller 0:51:04.200 --> 0:51:07.200 specific they're saying like smaller local things actually can't succeed 0:51:07.239 --> 0:51:10.120 in a lot of ways. But they're trying to tie 0:51:10.280 --> 0:51:13.879 this idea of global revolution is like a pacifying idea, right, 0:51:14.040 --> 0:51:16.399 just waiting around for this to happen, and tying that 0:51:16.480 --> 0:51:19.520 to this at the time, which more niche idea Now 0:51:19.560 --> 0:51:21.680 it's now it's way more popular. But this idea of 0:51:21.719 --> 0:51:25.120 like global collapse and how people think if they can 0:51:25.320 --> 0:51:28.320 people think believing in global collapse is smarter than believing 0:51:28.320 --> 0:51:30.920 in global revolution. They think it's more realistic. But the 0:51:30.920 --> 0:51:33.440 book saying no, this is this idea of global collapse 0:51:33.480 --> 0:51:36.880 actually falls under all the same issues that global revolution has. 0:51:37.560 --> 0:51:40.959 I think i'd want to um sort of comments here 0:51:42.000 --> 0:51:45.960 um with regard to like the defeatist sort of reading 0:51:46.360 --> 0:51:49.520 um in the text. I understand that reading um I 0:51:49.520 --> 0:51:53.239 mean perasonally I distinguished like defeatism and dumerism. And I 0:51:53.280 --> 0:51:57.239 always think, like my own personality and my own perspective 0:51:57.360 --> 0:52:01.359 kind of like inoculates me in a way from like 0:52:02.640 --> 0:52:07.520 adopting that kind of defeatist attitude towards um. You know, change. 0:52:07.680 --> 0:52:11.920 But I don't think the book is entirely um, you know, 0:52:12.040 --> 0:52:17.600 dismissive of like revolution um. It just I think the 0:52:17.640 --> 0:52:19.880 main thrust of it is that it's critically the idea 0:52:19.960 --> 0:52:23.960 of like one global revolution, one global collapse. What it 0:52:24.000 --> 0:52:28.440 really emphasizes is that, you know, climate change brings new 0:52:28.480 --> 0:52:33.280 possibilities for new anarchies plural to develop worldwide and response 0:52:33.400 --> 0:52:37.920 changing circumstances. But at the same time, you know, in 0:52:38.000 --> 0:52:41.200 some areas things are going to get worse than some 0:52:41.239 --> 0:52:43.680 areas things are going to get better. And it's not 0:52:43.800 --> 0:52:49.080 that really one broadbrush could be applied to the entire earth. Well, 0:52:49.160 --> 0:52:51.160 but I think, I mean, I think like this this 0:52:51.360 --> 0:52:53.759 is another thing that they're really guilty of, especially like 0:52:53.760 --> 0:52:56.719 there's an entire section in here where they just keep 0:52:56.719 --> 0:53:00.160 writing about Africa and it's like well, and then you know, 0:53:00.200 --> 0:53:01.840 and they'll get pressed on it and they'll be like, no, no, 0:53:01.920 --> 0:53:04.560 we mean sub Saharan Africa, and it's like, what are 0:53:04.560 --> 0:53:08.479 you talking like. They they won't name countries, they won't 0:53:08.520 --> 0:53:11.000 name movements, they won't name people. It's just they'll just 0:53:11.040 --> 0:53:14.120 write something about the whole of Sub Saharan Africa, and 0:53:14.120 --> 0:53:16.960 it's just like, well, I think that's evidence of the 0:53:17.040 --> 0:53:19.960 kind of of what Garrison was talking about. This, right, 0:53:19.960 --> 0:53:21.640 and this is something you see all over the place 0:53:21.680 --> 0:53:25.560 with people writing about politics, with people trying to write 0:53:25.560 --> 0:53:29.280 about like particularly revolutionary politics, UM in a global sense. 0:53:29.320 --> 0:53:31.480 And I think it's usually a mistake to do that, 0:53:31.760 --> 0:53:34.919 UM for the reasons we've kind of discussed. Any time 0:53:34.960 --> 0:53:37.200 I see a left wing even as somebody who I 0:53:37.239 --> 0:53:40.360 think is generally on point, who starts talking about, for example, 0:53:40.440 --> 0:53:43.719 like extending their theories about revolutionary politics to places I 0:53:43.760 --> 0:53:45.920 happen to know just a little bit about, it's always 0:53:46.040 --> 0:53:48.760 very clear like, oh, you don't know shit about Syria. 0:53:48.800 --> 0:53:51.120 Oh you don't know shit about Libya. Oh you don't 0:53:51.120 --> 0:53:55.640 know shit about Angle like um. And that's and that's 0:53:55.680 --> 0:53:57.640 like not even a moral failing, it's just that it's 0:53:57.680 --> 0:54:02.000 impost It's it's impossible really to have in depth knowledge 0:54:02.080 --> 0:54:04.160 of like what's actually going on in those places and 0:54:04.200 --> 0:54:06.400 what's going on in those revolutions. It's why people default 0:54:06.480 --> 0:54:09.279 so much to the whole Well, whatever side the US 0:54:09.400 --> 0:54:11.160 is on must be the bad side, and whatever side 0:54:11.160 --> 0:54:12.960 the Russians on must be the good side. It's the 0:54:13.000 --> 0:54:16.360 easiest way to look at that ship. UM, I don't. 0:54:16.560 --> 0:54:19.759 I think that's I think that's a worthwhile critique to make, 0:54:19.800 --> 0:54:22.440 and it's a critique to make any time that it happens. 0:54:23.040 --> 0:54:28.040 Um I I agree with Garrison and with Andrew that 0:54:28.960 --> 0:54:31.759 I think the thing that is that desert gets right. 0:54:32.080 --> 0:54:33.720 Um And the thing that I've seen in my own 0:54:33.880 --> 0:54:37.440 life is that like the opportunities we should be looking 0:54:37.520 --> 0:54:41.360 for are not suddenly that some sort of global revolution 0:54:41.480 --> 0:54:43.560 sweeps all of the things we don't like out of 0:54:43.600 --> 0:54:49.680 power and magically institutes something better comprehensively across the globe. 0:54:49.680 --> 0:54:52.239 It's it's it's room for little anarchies. It's what we 0:54:52.280 --> 0:54:55.480 saw in northeast Syria, right where the government pulls out 0:54:55.560 --> 0:54:58.720 and people have an opportunity to do something not perfect, 0:54:58.800 --> 0:55:01.319 but better. And I think that is That's kind of 0:55:01.480 --> 0:55:02.799 one of the things we talked about a lot on 0:55:02.840 --> 0:55:05.560 this show. That's why mutual aid is valuable, It's why 0:55:05.600 --> 0:55:09.720 building these connections are valuable. It's because, um, as things crumble, 0:55:09.760 --> 0:55:16.279 there will be opportunities two in local areas, piecemeal institute 0:55:16.320 --> 0:55:20.520 and and push through for more just and and better 0:55:21.719 --> 0:55:24.960 ways of living. Um And I think that if you're 0:55:24.960 --> 0:55:28.520 looking at kind of the broad level, potentially optimistic point 0:55:28.560 --> 0:55:30.279 is that when you have enough of those and when 0:55:30.320 --> 0:55:32.560 they spread well enough, and if communication is good enough, 0:55:32.600 --> 0:55:35.040 maybe the things that work will get adopted on a 0:55:35.080 --> 0:55:38.799 wider scale. And there's always the opportunity that when enough, 0:55:39.680 --> 0:55:42.440 when ideas spread far enough, they have a tipping point 0:55:42.560 --> 0:55:44.880 and and they go viral, you know, so to speak. 0:55:45.360 --> 0:55:49.319 But I I I don't. I think that while there's 0:55:49.360 --> 0:55:51.920 a lot of specifics that Desert gets wrong, I do 0:55:52.000 --> 0:55:54.319 think they were ahead of the curve and recognizing that, 0:55:54.400 --> 0:55:56.440 and I think it's it's a more productive way to 0:55:56.520 --> 0:56:00.560 look at the idea of revolutionary change. Then we're going 0:56:00.640 --> 0:56:04.520 to finally have nineteen seventeen. But everywhere, you know, with 0:56:04.640 --> 0:56:09.319 regards of the African chapter, the impression that I got 0:56:09.360 --> 0:56:13.600 while reading that chapter, and I think the book itself 0:56:13.680 --> 0:56:19.080 references Um Samba Um, I got the impression that the 0:56:19.200 --> 0:56:23.600 author had read Um Afrighan anarchism History of a movement 0:56:24.000 --> 0:56:27.879 by sam Member and they were just kind of like 0:56:28.480 --> 0:56:31.200 inspired by that, I would say, because as I do 0:56:31.320 --> 0:56:36.200 point out, they didn't like specify the specific cultures, which 0:56:36.280 --> 0:56:40.239 is an issue considering, you know, the tendency that Westerners 0:56:40.280 --> 0:56:43.080 have of you know, being to Africa this large brush 0:56:43.120 --> 0:56:47.160 as if it's you know, all one way or the other. Um. 0:56:47.239 --> 0:56:53.399 But I think what we do see now, um is 0:56:54.160 --> 0:56:57.560 you know, from the Horn of Africa to South Africa 0:56:57.640 --> 0:57:02.000 to Nigeria too, I mean recently Sudan. I believe, Um, 0:57:02.040 --> 0:57:07.000 there are Africans, smaller number organizing under the mount of anarchism, 0:57:07.000 --> 0:57:10.759 and they are anarchic elements that continue to persist on 0:57:10.840 --> 0:57:16.680 the continent. Yeah, I mean I think that's like, you know, 0:57:16.720 --> 0:57:18.320 I mean one of the things that they sort of 0:57:18.360 --> 0:57:20.680 got they got right, was about how like this the 0:57:20.760 --> 0:57:22.480 sort of the the sort of renewal the spread of 0:57:22.560 --> 0:57:25.880 urban anarchism they're talking about like Chile in particular, they 0:57:25.920 --> 0:57:32.240 got right, Um, Indonesia Bangladeshtra somewhat. But but but I 0:57:32.320 --> 0:57:36.840 think I think there's there's another like my, my, my, my, 0:57:36.840 --> 0:57:39.959 my biggest issue with them in terms of the way 0:57:39.960 --> 0:57:42.680 they think about ecological stuff that this comes this is 0:57:42.680 --> 0:57:46.480 something they talk about with like they have this thing 0:57:46.560 --> 0:57:50.720 where they think that forger societies are like, Okay, they're they're, they're, they're, 0:57:50.760 --> 0:57:53.160 they're they're more careful than most people. To frame it 0:57:53.240 --> 0:57:56.800 as like the forging societies can be a galitarian but 0:57:57.720 --> 0:58:01.280 I think they they they wind talking about these sort 0:58:01.320 --> 0:58:04.560 of like the way that sort of forging nomadic society 0:58:04.600 --> 0:58:06.600 sort of inherently defy the boundaries of the state, and 0:58:06.640 --> 0:58:11.360 like that's true. But you can also have like nomadic 0:58:11.400 --> 0:58:16.120 forging societies that have are hereditary slave societies. And this 0:58:16.200 --> 0:58:20.000 is this is a problem because there's a there's a 0:58:20.080 --> 0:58:23.040 lot in here about that that that's about sort of 0:58:23.080 --> 0:58:25.080 like they're you know, they're they're taking this is sort 0:58:25.120 --> 0:58:30.280 of like soft an anti su right. Yeah. It has 0:58:30.280 --> 0:58:33.720 a few lines where it does specifically say civilization is 0:58:33.880 --> 0:58:36.200 the cause of like I think it's like the civilization 0:58:36.280 --> 0:58:42.840 is genocide, um, which yeah, and that can't silly, Yeah, 0:58:44.720 --> 0:58:48.320 by civilizations commit genocide. Sure, if they're saying that they 0:58:48.320 --> 0:58:50.440 do cause genocide, if you're if you're trying to make 0:58:50.480 --> 0:58:54.480 the case that it seems to be that civilizations, Uh, well, 0:58:54.560 --> 0:58:57.960 I don't know every civilization does not commit genocide, but no, 0:58:58.000 --> 0:59:02.520 but civilization gives you a constant Yeah, civilization gives you 0:59:02.560 --> 0:59:07.080 the framework that makes genocide possible, well, like potentially contentional 0:59:07.120 --> 0:59:09.600 genocide possible. I don't know that I would agree with 0:59:09.640 --> 0:59:12.440 that because I think you see examples of genocide from 0:59:12.520 --> 0:59:17.320 hunter gatherers societies and from from so societies, and that 0:59:17.480 --> 0:59:21.000 the obviously documentation on that isn't as extensive because we 0:59:21.000 --> 0:59:22.800 weren't documenting things for a lot of it. But you 0:59:22.840 --> 0:59:26.360 do have examples from from what we know of, like um, 0:59:26.440 --> 0:59:29.840 the Americas of their word genocides committed by societies we 0:59:29.840 --> 0:59:32.560 would call stateless. So I think I might argue that like, 0:59:32.640 --> 0:59:35.760 genocide is a thing that human beings do in civilization 0:59:36.240 --> 0:59:38.520 because it allows us to do everything on a larger scale, 0:59:38.520 --> 0:59:41.560 allows us to do way better genocides. That's definitely in 0:59:41.640 --> 0:59:44.560 our think. I think. I think my problem with it 0:59:44.600 --> 0:59:47.120 is that they're going back into this sort of like 0:59:47.200 --> 0:59:50.000 that they're going back into the you know, there's this 0:59:50.120 --> 0:59:54.880 inherent binarya between foragers and sales societies and that you know, 0:59:55.000 --> 0:59:57.560 and and specifically they think that that that these sorts 0:59:57.600 --> 0:59:59.760 that the forager scietas are you know, inviably gonna become 0:59:59.760 --> 1:00:01.560 a galle Ryan. It's like that's not true, and it's 1:00:01.560 --> 1:00:04.280 not true in ways that you can see right now, 1:00:05.280 --> 1:00:07.959 in like like they're like they're like there are lots 1:00:07.960 --> 1:00:10.200 of places right now where you can look at you know, 1:00:10.320 --> 1:00:13.000 forging societies that have incredibly right, but like there's there's like, 1:00:13.640 --> 1:00:16.280 for example, you get sort of you get the Filani 1:00:16.440 --> 1:00:20.280 joining like right wing Islamist groups, right, and that like 1:00:20.480 --> 1:00:26.000 that kind of thing. I think it has a problem 1:00:26.200 --> 1:00:33.160 with It's the same thing as looking at indigenous societies 1:00:33.240 --> 1:00:36.680 and and seeing them all on one side of the 1:00:37.040 --> 1:00:39.560 fight with with colonizing nations as supposed I'm reading a 1:00:39.560 --> 1:00:41.600 book about the history of the Mapucha right now, which 1:00:41.600 --> 1:00:47.000 are historically like the indigenous group in Chile that resisted 1:00:47.040 --> 1:00:49.120 the law and the indigenous group realion, and you could 1:00:49.240 --> 1:00:51.440 argue in all of Latin America that resisted the longest 1:00:51.480 --> 1:00:53.760 and most effectively. But even then, when you look at 1:00:53.800 --> 1:00:56.200 like the campaigns of the Chilean government in the eighteen 1:00:56.280 --> 1:00:59.520 sixties and eighteen eighties, large like significant chunks of the 1:00:59.520 --> 1:01:02.200 Mapocha sided with the government against other Mapucha, and like 1:01:02.320 --> 1:01:05.600 that's the like it's it's always a mistake. I think 1:01:05.600 --> 1:01:06.920 this is a good one of the things that you 1:01:06.960 --> 1:01:08.960 get out of the dawn of everything. It's always a 1:01:08.960 --> 1:01:11.640 mistake to like look at any of these groups hunter gatherers, 1:01:11.680 --> 1:01:15.320 stateless societies. Is like one thing or another they're people 1:01:15.680 --> 1:01:20.959 and some of them sucked, just like yeah there, yeah, anyway, Yeah, 1:01:21.520 --> 1:01:23.480 there's there's one thing that I wanted to sort of 1:01:23.760 --> 1:01:28.040 pushback against. Uh, Robert, you had said that genocide is 1:01:28.080 --> 1:01:30.840 a thing that humans do. Um. I don't think I 1:01:31.520 --> 1:01:36.160 agree with that assessment, um in this sense, or at 1:01:36.200 --> 1:01:39.000 least i'd rather I would like to clarify. Um, Well, 1:01:39.000 --> 1:01:41.120 if you an opportunity to clarify what you mean by that, 1:01:42.400 --> 1:01:44.600 I you know, I don't know that it's just humans, 1:01:44.600 --> 1:01:47.120 but I think that genocide is a thing that as 1:01:47.160 --> 1:01:51.120 long as we have evidence in recorded history, it seems 1:01:51.160 --> 1:01:54.400 like we have done not just against are not just 1:01:54.480 --> 1:01:58.080 against other humans, but against other kind of hominid species. 1:01:58.120 --> 1:02:01.600 We have we have examples of things that it seems 1:02:01.640 --> 1:02:04.640 fair to call genocide going back further than we have 1:02:04.680 --> 1:02:08.000 any kinds of written records. Um. You know, villages and 1:02:08.040 --> 1:02:11.320 the Balkans that were you know, burnt in people who 1:02:11.520 --> 1:02:13.920 like groups of people, tribes and whatnot, who seem to 1:02:14.000 --> 1:02:17.000 have been killed in mass and you know, there's there's 1:02:17.040 --> 1:02:18.960 other theories for some of that. Some of them may 1:02:19.000 --> 1:02:20.680 have been like people trying to stop a place we 1:02:20.720 --> 1:02:24.320 don't plague or whatever. Like, there's not any kind of 1:02:24.360 --> 1:02:27.320 comprehensive solidity. But what we do know is that as 1:02:27.360 --> 1:02:30.080 long as we have documentations of humans doing things, we 1:02:30.120 --> 1:02:34.960 have documentations of things that we could call genocide. I see, 1:02:35.000 --> 1:02:39.760 I see, look into that a bit more. I appreciate 1:02:39.800 --> 1:02:42.720 the glarification. Yeah, can I can I do a Balkans 1:02:42.720 --> 1:02:47.840 pivot because there's a there's a there's a thing like 1:02:47.840 --> 1:02:51.720 like it genuinely disturbed me reading it in here about 1:02:52.640 --> 1:02:56.320 the Serbs during the Bosnian genocide. Were so that they're 1:02:56.320 --> 1:02:59.360 they're they're quoting. That's disturbing about that. Oh yeah, but 1:02:59.400 --> 1:03:02.720 this is this is a I uh okay, So they're 1:03:02.720 --> 1:03:04.840 they're they're doing they're they're reading a quote from the 1:03:04.840 --> 1:03:07.919 book Gypsies, Wars and Other Instances of the Wild where 1:03:07.920 --> 1:03:11.240 he's talking this is about the bonding genocide. How is 1:03:11.320 --> 1:03:13.320 this possible in Europe at the end of the twentieth 1:03:13.360 --> 1:03:15.840 century was the question that played obsessively through my mind. 1:03:16.400 --> 1:03:19.080 What the war in former Yugoslavia forced us to suggest 1:03:19.120 --> 1:03:21.400 the fact that people proved willing to make a conscious 1:03:21.440 --> 1:03:25.160 and active choice to embrace regression, barbarity, a return to 1:03:25.200 --> 1:03:28.600 the wildness. Take the serve fighters who dreamed of a 1:03:28.680 --> 1:03:32.160 return to the Serbia of the epic poems were quote 1:03:32.360 --> 1:03:35.640 there was no electricity, no computers, when the serves were 1:03:35.640 --> 1:03:38.080 happy and had no cities, the breeding ground of all evil. 1:03:38.120 --> 1:03:41.080 And then this is this is the next thing. That's 1:03:41.120 --> 1:03:44.480 that's the text coming back and commenting on it that 1:03:44.680 --> 1:03:48.720 some modern day militias reflect romantic desires, while shelling towns, 1:03:48.840 --> 1:03:52.400 massacring villages, and being killed in turn should neither surprise 1:03:52.480 --> 1:03:57.640 us nor necessarily fully invalidate romance. It does, however, suggest, 1:03:57.760 --> 1:04:01.080 along with the honest expression of joy destruction mouth by 1:04:01.080 --> 1:04:03.680 some soldiers in every war, as well as many anarchists, 1:04:04.200 --> 1:04:06.000 that there was a coupling of some store between a 1:04:06.040 --> 1:04:09.840 generalized urge to destroy and disgusted at a complex human society. 1:04:10.040 --> 1:04:12.800 And there's there's there's another part um only later on 1:04:12.880 --> 1:04:18.080 they're talking about ethnic diversity and autonomy will often emerge 1:04:18.120 --> 1:04:21.320 both from mutual aid and community and animosity between communities. 1:04:22.160 --> 1:04:23.920 I like to think, and our history back this up, 1:04:23.960 --> 1:04:26.560 that self adantified anarchists will never inflict such pain as 1:04:26.600 --> 1:04:30.400 Serb nationalist militias. An example I shows purposely for the Repuglicans. 1:04:30.400 --> 1:04:33.040 But we should admit that our wish to function up 1:04:33.120 --> 1:04:36.120 is partly driven by the same urge to civilizational dismemberment 1:04:36.120 --> 1:04:38.760 that can be found in many interethnic conflicts and in 1:04:38.800 --> 1:04:42.680 the minds of fighters more generally. And I think that's fucked. 1:04:42.720 --> 1:04:50.120 I think that's true. That's I think there's commenting a 1:04:50.200 --> 1:04:52.440 specific type of anarchist literature, which is like the make 1:04:52.520 --> 1:04:55.600 total destroy thing. And yeah, I definitely I have observed 1:04:55.600 --> 1:04:59.439 that in people the same the same urge that you're 1:04:59.720 --> 1:05:05.120 you're are so broken down by everything that the only 1:05:05.440 --> 1:05:08.160 urge that is the only creative verge you have, is 1:05:08.200 --> 1:05:11.920 to destroy the things around you. I've seen that. I 1:05:12.160 --> 1:05:15.600 don't think they're necessarily celebrating that, but they're pointing out 1:05:15.640 --> 1:05:18.360 that that urge can be there. When I think they 1:05:18.400 --> 1:05:21.280 get really wrong here is that I don't think that's 1:05:21.320 --> 1:05:23.720 the urge that that is is like that, that's when 1:05:23.720 --> 1:05:25.680 when when you're dealing with inter ethnic conflict, when you're 1:05:25.720 --> 1:05:27.560 dealing with genocide, I don't think that's urge that's going on. 1:05:28.280 --> 1:05:32.200 It's specifically with the Serbs, because the Serbs, like you know, okay, 1:05:32.280 --> 1:05:34.200 like when when when an anarchist is doing made total 1:05:34.280 --> 1:05:37.520 destroy right there, you know, they're like there, there's there's 1:05:37.520 --> 1:05:39.480 a very specific that of things they're attacking or they're 1:05:39.480 --> 1:05:41.640 you know, they're attacking, builing, the attacking the physical infrastructure 1:05:41.640 --> 1:05:43.880 of the world. When the Serbs are doing the Bosnian 1:05:43.920 --> 1:05:46.520 genocide like that, they have a very specific thing they're doing, 1:05:46.560 --> 1:05:51.160 which is killing Bosnian Muslims. And I think that's extremely 1:05:51.400 --> 1:05:55.600 different urge than the sort of like I don't I 1:05:55.640 --> 1:05:58.120 don't think that's about sort of what it's civilizational dismemberment 1:05:58.240 --> 1:06:01.520 or whatever that's about is homophobia and genocide. And I 1:06:01.520 --> 1:06:05.760 think that's a different I think the genocidal impulse is 1:06:05.760 --> 1:06:09.520 a I think a very different one than this sort 1:06:09.560 --> 1:06:12.200 of the like the impulse to break the society that 1:06:12.200 --> 1:06:14.760 has harmed you. Yeah, I think it's important to draw 1:06:14.800 --> 1:06:17.720 a distinction between you can kill a shipload of people 1:06:18.080 --> 1:06:21.680 without it being a genocide, um, And I think and 1:06:21.720 --> 1:06:24.120 it's also one of those things I think sometimes why 1:06:24.160 --> 1:06:28.280 people I think why there's hesitation to see certain acts 1:06:28.280 --> 1:06:30.240 and early history of genocide is that they're not as 1:06:30.280 --> 1:06:33.480 complete as modern genocide. But but what a genocide really is, 1:06:33.520 --> 1:06:35.520 and I think it's important to lay this out. It's 1:06:35.560 --> 1:06:38.360 not necessarily killing every member of an ethnic group or 1:06:38.360 --> 1:06:41.240 a religious group or whatever kind of community. Um, it 1:06:41.480 --> 1:06:45.720 is stopping their ability to propagate and continue themselves. That's 1:06:45.720 --> 1:06:49.360 why things like destroying churches and destroying the cultural distroyal 1:06:49.480 --> 1:06:51.960 markers are part of genocide. And it's also why a 1:06:51.960 --> 1:06:54.439 lot of genocides they left the women and children alive. 1:06:54.480 --> 1:06:56.040 They would kill all the men, and they would take 1:06:56.080 --> 1:06:57.520 the women in and they would breed with them. They 1:06:57.600 --> 1:06:59.640 might kill the kids sometimes, but it was this The 1:06:59.720 --> 1:07:02.360 goal was not necessarily were we need to kill all 1:07:02.360 --> 1:07:04.440 of you, it's we want to kill this, this culture, 1:07:04.520 --> 1:07:10.400 this population. Um, I think the I think the I 1:07:10.400 --> 1:07:13.000 think the parallel he's trying to make here or they 1:07:13.120 --> 1:07:18.080 or she? Uh? Is that? Uh? That like that type 1:07:18.080 --> 1:07:23.560 of like genocidal cultural destruction is targeted against specific groups. 1:07:24.040 --> 1:07:26.680 The difference here is with this type of like you know, 1:07:26.720 --> 1:07:29.400 he's he's writing this for other anarchists. He's pointing out, 1:07:29.480 --> 1:07:33.960 like our destructive urge, our cultural urge, isn't even for 1:07:33.960 --> 1:07:37.280 a specific group, it's just for everything, and that can 1:07:37.320 --> 1:07:40.640 be unhealthy. Sometimes sometimes there's ways to do make total 1:07:40.680 --> 1:07:44.640 destroy that's totally fine, but that can go to unhealthy places. Now, 1:07:44.760 --> 1:07:48.080 he's not equating like ethnic cleansing with that. He's like 1:07:48.200 --> 1:07:51.840 they are like they are different. But when when your 1:07:51.920 --> 1:07:56.840 total destroy urges against all of culture, then yeah, that 1:07:56.840 --> 1:08:00.440 that can like that's something you should probably ponder. Yeah, 1:08:00.480 --> 1:08:02.560 I mean that's definitely I would agree that that's the 1:08:02.600 --> 1:08:05.600 thing that's potentially problematic, right, like with a number of 1:08:05.640 --> 1:08:08.960 different desires. Uh, there's a way in which that can 1:08:09.080 --> 1:08:11.880 lead to people doing really fucked up things. Yeah, it's 1:08:12.160 --> 1:08:14.520 like it's like it's pointing out that that type of 1:08:14.600 --> 1:08:19.120 accelerationism not specific to ideology, but just like accelerationism in general. 1:08:20.160 --> 1:08:22.120 I mean, I think when I when I talk about 1:08:22.160 --> 1:08:24.719 things like the fact that because not every culture commits 1:08:24.720 --> 1:08:28.880 genocides and every civil civilization does, um, and throughout history 1:08:28.960 --> 1:08:31.200 there have been more that found the idea repugnant than 1:08:31.240 --> 1:08:35.080 found the idea acceptable. Um. But it is really a 1:08:35.120 --> 1:08:38.000 consistent thing in history. And I think the lesson with 1:08:38.040 --> 1:08:41.160 that isn't necessarily that everything could end in genocide. So 1:08:41.320 --> 1:08:43.120 I don't think the lesson is necessarily like, oh you 1:08:43.120 --> 1:08:46.080 should look at make total destroy as if you know, 1:08:46.320 --> 1:08:48.960 the this kind of trend in anarchist thought could lead 1:08:49.000 --> 1:08:53.040 to genocide it's that people in groups are nearly always 1:08:53.080 --> 1:08:55.760 capable of killing a shipload of other people for a 1:08:55.840 --> 1:08:59.599 variety of reasons if applied in the proper ways, And 1:08:59.720 --> 1:09:02.719 so those of us who seek mass movement should always 1:09:02.760 --> 1:09:06.200 be conscious of that, because human beings in large groups 1:09:06.240 --> 1:09:08.640 can do wonderful things, but there's a long history of 1:09:08.680 --> 1:09:11.280 them doing really fucked up shit, sometimes in ways that 1:09:11.360 --> 1:09:13.719 surprised the people that got the large group of human 1:09:13.760 --> 1:09:16.360 beings together in the first place. The other thing I 1:09:16.400 --> 1:09:19.120 wanted to bring up is kind of more circling back 1:09:19.120 --> 1:09:22.680 to the dumer kind of idea UM, because Yeah, a 1:09:22.680 --> 1:09:25.439 big part of the book is trying purposely is to 1:09:25.520 --> 1:09:29.799 dissolution people with this idea of global revolution and dissolution 1:09:29.800 --> 1:09:31.320 people with the idea that we can save the earth 1:09:31.360 --> 1:09:35.080 because we can't. UM. So that's a big thing and 1:09:35.479 --> 1:09:37.960 for I think, I think for some people, if you 1:09:38.040 --> 1:09:41.479 stop right there and you that's how you end that thought, Yes, 1:09:41.560 --> 1:09:44.080 that does lead to dumorism, obviously, like that that is 1:09:44.360 --> 1:09:47.000 that is, But the books, the book doesn't stop there. 1:09:47.760 --> 1:09:50.680 The book continues on from there. Now they continue on 1:09:50.800 --> 1:09:54.480 from a nihilistic standpoint. I'm not a nihilist. I prefer certinism. 1:09:54.479 --> 1:09:57.920 I prefer to escordionism. But those two things are pretty common. 1:09:58.040 --> 1:10:01.960 Like there they are more are similar than not um 1:10:02.080 --> 1:10:05.240 is that you can be disillusioned with global revolution and 1:10:05.280 --> 1:10:07.400 the idea to save the earth, but that should not 1:10:07.720 --> 1:10:12.400 change what we do or how we feel or operate 1:10:12.479 --> 1:10:16.840 as anarchists. It's not that we should be disillusioned and 1:10:16.880 --> 1:10:19.800 then do nothing and step aside. That we should be 1:10:19.920 --> 1:10:25.640 disillusioned and then find that disillusionment itself a form of liberation, 1:10:26.120 --> 1:10:29.360 like the freeing nature of being free from this idea 1:10:29.439 --> 1:10:31.760 of revolution. Is that like, no, we are living our 1:10:31.800 --> 1:10:35.120 lives now. Don't live for a revolution. Live your life 1:10:35.120 --> 1:10:38.880 now and do things now, because that's what you actually have. 1:10:39.439 --> 1:10:43.160 So it's like that type of nihilistic, absurdist and Discordian things. 1:10:43.240 --> 1:10:44.519 This is, this is this is This is where I 1:10:44.600 --> 1:10:46.160 come back to having problems with it again because this 1:10:46.200 --> 1:10:49.360 this is literally just there is no alternative except it's 1:10:49.479 --> 1:10:54.519 it's yeah, and that's it's do anarchy. I mean, but 1:10:54.560 --> 1:10:57.600 that's how I live like that that I think I 1:10:57.680 --> 1:10:59.639 think this is a bad I think that's a bad plan. 1:10:59.680 --> 1:11:01.400 And I think if if you look if you look 1:11:01.439 --> 1:11:04.280 at what happens with because you know this, this was 1:11:04.280 --> 1:11:06.439 the thing that was really big in the American anarchist movement, 1:11:06.920 --> 1:11:10.720 like in you know, from about seventeen like roughly now, 1:11:10.760 --> 1:11:14.360 and it's like a lot of people were rising too. 1:11:14.439 --> 1:11:17.680 Yeah didn't succeed like that, like not like but I 1:11:17.680 --> 1:11:20.280 think like like this is like I think I think 1:11:20.320 --> 1:11:23.280 this is like like one of the reasons it didn't. 1:11:23.360 --> 1:11:25.920 We were like, okay, this is like the thing that's important. 1:11:25.920 --> 1:11:27.400 One of the things is important of revolutions, even when 1:11:27.400 --> 1:11:30.639 they don't succeed, is that for a very brief window 1:11:30.720 --> 1:11:33.320 you actually can like it becomes it becomes possible to 1:11:33.360 --> 1:11:37.200 imagine another world. And what what what this entire thing 1:11:37.280 --> 1:11:39.519 is saying is don't do that. That's not that's not 1:11:40.040 --> 1:11:42.600 that's that's that's that is not what it absolutely not. 1:11:42.840 --> 1:11:44.760 This is no no no, okayn I kind of finish 1:11:44.800 --> 1:11:48.280 this sentence, yeah, like yeah, okay, so what what what? 1:11:48.280 --> 1:11:53.040 What What I'm saying here is that what what they've abandoned, right, 1:11:53.600 --> 1:11:55.240 the thing that they're giving up when they when they 1:11:55.240 --> 1:11:57.479 give up revolution, when they're like this is a progressive myth. 1:11:57.600 --> 1:12:02.320 This is like I see oology. What what they've abandoned 1:12:02.320 --> 1:12:06.920 completely is our human capacity to actually shape a different world. 1:12:07.400 --> 1:12:10.920 What they're arguing is that, like the the you know, 1:12:11.040 --> 1:12:16.080 it's essentially that the combination of ecological and social forces 1:12:16.080 --> 1:12:19.240 are strong enough that humans humans no longer have the 1:12:19.320 --> 1:12:23.479 capacity to reshape the world into a way that is 1:12:23.479 --> 1:12:26.320 different than this, and that this is now the eternal present, 1:12:26.400 --> 1:12:28.760 and you know, and yeah, inside of the eternal present, 1:12:28.760 --> 1:12:30.320 they're saying, you should be fighting for the same things. 1:12:30.360 --> 1:12:32.679 You should be fighting for, like you know, you should 1:12:32.680 --> 1:12:35.439 you should be in your own sort of local domain. 1:12:35.560 --> 1:12:37.960 You should be Like, I mean, there are some of 1:12:38.000 --> 1:12:41.160 the recommendations are wild, Like I think, I think their 1:12:41.160 --> 1:12:47.439 conservation stuff is sketchy, given, I mean, it doesn't but 1:12:47.439 --> 1:12:49.840 it doesn't apply to an eternal present though, Like they 1:12:49.920 --> 1:12:53.040 lay out, like the world is changing a lot and 1:12:53.120 --> 1:12:54.840 will for the next fifty years, Like they will be 1:12:55.160 --> 1:12:57.360 massive changes and how things are set up in the 1:12:57.400 --> 1:13:00.120 next like in the next century, and we need to 1:13:00.200 --> 1:13:02.800 take advantage of that. We need to turn those liabilities 1:13:02.840 --> 1:13:07.160 into assets and start making those little anarchies like that. That 1:13:06.840 --> 1:13:09.960 That that is what it's trying to do. And I 1:13:09.960 --> 1:13:13.120 would add as well that as it points out the 1:13:13.160 --> 1:13:16.920 situations and plastic Stooke and Bangladesh are difference in the 1:13:16.920 --> 1:13:19.519 present and will be in the future. You Know, what 1:13:19.560 --> 1:13:23.400 I think is is trying to be sort of drilled 1:13:23.439 --> 1:13:26.680 in here, is that, at least in the text and 1:13:26.720 --> 1:13:31.240 how I read it, um, is that yes, things will 1:13:31.400 --> 1:13:34.799 be different in different parts of the world, and probably 1:13:34.880 --> 1:13:37.040 maybe they won't be this you know or as the 1:13:37.200 --> 1:13:40.120 what the is, They won't be you know, this one 1:13:40.439 --> 1:13:45.719 global revolution. But at the end of the day, Um, 1:13:45.760 --> 1:13:49.519 I think what it's trying to emphasize is that we 1:13:49.520 --> 1:13:51.439 don't have the structures. And I think what part of 1:13:51.479 --> 1:13:52.680 what is trying to emphasize is that we don't have 1:13:52.680 --> 1:13:55.240 the structures in place right now to launch an introduction 1:13:55.320 --> 1:13:58.040 we can meaningfully defend. And so that is the sort 1:13:58.040 --> 1:14:01.360 of thing we should be focusing on. Yeah, but but 1:14:01.360 --> 1:14:03.240 but they, but they but this and this, this, this 1:14:03.280 --> 1:14:04.920 is going back to my problem with it, going going 1:14:04.960 --> 1:14:07.160 back to the thing where they go on the rant 1:14:07.200 --> 1:14:09.800 about how anarchists are like a permanent cultural majority and 1:14:09.800 --> 1:14:13.280 will never become a majority. Is that even even in 1:14:13.320 --> 1:14:15.800 situations where people had that capacity and did it, they 1:14:15.840 --> 1:14:18.280 go back they project back onto it. Go no, no, no no, no, 1:14:18.439 --> 1:14:20.280 they couldn't have done that. Like it's it's not about 1:14:21.360 --> 1:14:23.880 it's it's it's they they have a belief and this 1:14:23.960 --> 1:14:26.120 is something that they do explicitly say that that anarchist 1:14:26.240 --> 1:14:29.599 will always be a permanent minority. Right there, There will 1:14:29.600 --> 1:14:32.439 always be an active but permanent minority. And that is 1:14:32.520 --> 1:14:37.760 the like like that specifically, I think is just an 1:14:37.840 --> 1:14:42.000 actual rejection of the belief that we collectively can make 1:14:42.040 --> 1:14:44.880 a better future. Because if if, if you think that 1:14:44.960 --> 1:14:48.479 our ideas that you know, if being free, right, if 1:14:48.520 --> 1:14:51.280 if society is mutually if you think that that is 1:14:51.479 --> 1:14:55.320 permanently always going to be a minority, you are you know, 1:14:55.640 --> 1:15:01.320 you are condemning. You're condemning the future to the people 1:15:01.360 --> 1:15:06.880 who don't believe that. And and I understand why, especially 1:15:07.080 --> 1:15:08.880 if you know, if if, if, if the only thing 1:15:08.920 --> 1:15:12.160 you've ever known is fifty years of when the new 1:15:12.200 --> 1:15:14.760 Liberals actually did the thing right. They took over the 1:15:14.920 --> 1:15:18.559 entire world, restructure of the entire world economy, seized every government. 1:15:19.200 --> 1:15:21.479 Like if if that's what you lived through, I understand 1:15:21.520 --> 1:15:24.160 why you would think that. But I think the fact 1:15:24.200 --> 1:15:26.960 that it was possible to do it from the other 1:15:27.040 --> 1:15:29.280 direction is in some ways a sense that like, yeah, 1:15:29.320 --> 1:15:31.600 we could do it too. I don't know. Sorry, I 1:15:31.880 --> 1:15:34.479 will stop harping on this one specific point. It just 1:15:34.600 --> 1:15:37.640 extremely annoys me. I think it's not giving up the 1:15:37.680 --> 1:15:40.439 idea that the world can be better. It's that like, 1:15:41.240 --> 1:15:43.880 we don't need to have the majority of people be 1:15:43.960 --> 1:15:46.599 anarchists to make the world better. We can still spread 1:15:46.600 --> 1:15:48.759 our own anarchies and people don't need to self subscribe 1:15:48.760 --> 1:15:51.639 as anarchists. But as long as we start building those 1:15:51.640 --> 1:15:54.920 systems in the places around us, people start using them, 1:15:54.920 --> 1:15:57.640 and people might start like living them out, even if 1:15:57.640 --> 1:16:00.040 they don't call themselves anarchists, right, like the majority and 1:16:00.120 --> 1:16:04.760 if people will probably prefer some type of state or government, right, 1:16:04.840 --> 1:16:06.680 you can even look at Rosa and be like, yeah, 1:16:06.720 --> 1:16:09.400 it's still is state issue in some ways, but some 1:16:09.439 --> 1:16:12.439 ways not right, Like it's it's it's going we're not 1:16:12.439 --> 1:16:15.320 going to get an anarchist world. That's not going to happen, 1:16:15.479 --> 1:16:17.959 but we can make it better through the lens of anarchy. 1:16:18.120 --> 1:16:20.160 And I think that's what it's kind of trying to say. Yeah, 1:16:20.240 --> 1:16:24.200 I think it's it's worth acknowledging that, like, yeah, the 1:16:24.200 --> 1:16:27.160 majority of people are never going to be what anarchists 1:16:27.680 --> 1:16:30.880 are right now, which is people who comprehensively reject the 1:16:30.960 --> 1:16:33.040 systems they live in. Most people are always going to 1:16:33.680 --> 1:16:36.280 think more like, well, I want to be comfortable. I 1:16:36.280 --> 1:16:38.920 want to I support changes kind of that that, you know, 1:16:39.000 --> 1:16:40.840 fix this thing that I've noticed as a problem or 1:16:40.880 --> 1:16:43.400 that thing. Most people are never going to comprehensively reject 1:16:43.439 --> 1:16:46.639 the system. But I do have hope that in time 1:16:46.680 --> 1:16:50.519 and given you know, space to build things and show 1:16:50.560 --> 1:16:53.640 people other ways and improve life for people, you can 1:16:53.680 --> 1:16:56.639 get to a point where most people believe a lot 1:16:56.680 --> 1:16:58.920 of the things that I think are important. Yeah, and 1:16:58.960 --> 1:17:03.680 I think that's what's time. I think that. I then 1:17:03.720 --> 1:17:07.560 that's what the as specificitis um tend to advocate for 1:17:08.080 --> 1:17:11.160 in terms of through the process of social institution in 1:17:11.200 --> 1:17:16.400 these larger movements, generalizing the ideas of anarchist ideas as 1:17:16.400 --> 1:17:19.680 a whole, making them more common throughout the population. It's 1:17:19.720 --> 1:17:21.800 only trying to get each and every post in the 1:17:21.800 --> 1:17:25.559 world to self identify as an anarchist, communist, or whatever. 1:17:26.080 --> 1:17:29.839 It's more so that you're trying to spread these ideas 1:17:29.880 --> 1:17:34.679 to the point where they are I suppose the common 1:17:34.720 --> 1:17:40.200 sentiments the popular will yeah, like I it's it's um 1:17:40.240 --> 1:17:42.800 that's like the point of culture jamming and and and 1:17:42.840 --> 1:17:45.800 ship like that, Like it's the the idea that like 1:17:45.840 --> 1:17:49.559 it doesn't so much matter, like like like what matters 1:17:49.640 --> 1:17:52.640 is inserting the things you think are important into the 1:17:52.680 --> 1:17:55.720 culture and getting people to identify with them and understand them. 1:17:56.560 --> 1:18:00.000 The terms that they specifically use aren't aren't as important, 1:18:00.360 --> 1:18:03.920 like that that's not really what matters. Well, okay, I 1:18:04.280 --> 1:18:07.080 don't think they're arguing that though, because I mean, like 1:18:07.120 --> 1:18:09.280 do they have lines like this. We cannot, however, remake 1:18:09.280 --> 1:18:10.960 the entire world. There are not enough of us. There 1:18:11.040 --> 1:18:12.800 never will be. But then you know, they like they 1:18:12.880 --> 1:18:15.200 they they specifically talk about the oh well they don't 1:18:15.240 --> 1:18:17.880 have to all be anarchists, and you know, I mean, 1:18:18.120 --> 1:18:20.599 here's their line. There is unfortunately little little evidence from 1:18:20.640 --> 1:18:22.800 history that the working class, never mind anyone else, is 1:18:22.800 --> 1:18:27.439 intrinsically predisposed to libertarian and ecological revolution. Thousands of years 1:18:27.439 --> 1:18:30.360 of authoritarian socialization in favor of the jack boot. Neither 1:18:30.479 --> 1:18:33.439 we nor anyone else could create a libertarian or global 1:18:34.000 --> 1:18:37.680 or ecological global future by expanding social movements further. There 1:18:37.720 --> 1:18:39.559 is no reason to think that in the absence of 1:18:39.600 --> 1:18:42.160 such a vast expanse a global transformation concurrent to our 1:18:42.240 --> 1:18:45.720 desires will ever happen. I think, I think, I think 1:18:45.760 --> 1:18:48.040 the keyword there is global, Like, yeah, that's they're trying 1:18:48.080 --> 1:18:50.240 to write about that, and it's important, Like they're writing 1:18:50.320 --> 1:18:54.120 this specifically for anarchists who are kind of already nihilistic, 1:18:54.200 --> 1:18:56.519 kind of already anti sif, right, they are writing this 1:18:56.640 --> 1:18:59.960 for other anarchists, that this isn't a book to radicalize 1:19:00.240 --> 1:19:04.439 a normy or a communist by anarchists for other anarchists 1:19:04.479 --> 1:19:06.840 to be like, hey, you already kind of think the 1:19:06.880 --> 1:19:10.200 world's kind of going to ship. Here's a way that 1:19:10.240 --> 1:19:13.320 we can still do things despite the world being shitty. 1:19:16.000 --> 1:19:19.120 Because once you're once you're disillusioned, it's hard to be 1:19:19.320 --> 1:19:22.280 illusioned again. Like it's it's hard once you give up 1:19:22.320 --> 1:19:25.559 on the idea of global revolution, once you give up 1:19:25.600 --> 1:19:27.559 the idea of global collapse, it's hard to re enter 1:19:27.680 --> 1:19:30.040 those even if you see things happening the world, like 1:19:30.200 --> 1:19:33.840 there can still be uprisings and revolts, absolutely, but there 1:19:33.920 --> 1:19:36.720 is a distinction of between uprising and the revolts and 1:19:36.880 --> 1:19:40.479 like a global revolution, right, and specifically like the Marxist 1:19:40.680 --> 1:19:45.439 Leninist sense, and I'd also like to um continue the 1:19:45.520 --> 1:19:48.880 paragraph you're reading from there. We had said that as anarchists, 1:19:48.880 --> 1:19:52.000 sweet he had. They had said that, as anarchists, we 1:19:52.000 --> 1:19:54.439 are not the seed of the future society. In the 1:19:54.439 --> 1:19:56.320 show of the old, it may are you one of 1:19:56.400 --> 1:20:00.559 many elements from which the future is. For me, that's okay, 1:20:00.640 --> 1:20:03.679 when faced with such scale and complexity. There is value 1:20:03.760 --> 1:20:06.800 in non cervile humility, even for in surgery. But this 1:20:06.640 --> 1:20:08.400 is this is just this is just giving up. This 1:20:08.280 --> 1:20:10.800 is this is the old. It's too complicated, it's too 1:20:10.840 --> 1:20:13.720 like and like I think, I don't know, like it's 1:20:13.760 --> 1:20:17.360 it's it's it's giving up on it's giving up on 1:20:17.400 --> 1:20:20.679 trying to do any kind of on on like humans 1:20:20.720 --> 1:20:22.960 as a whole, trying to do any kind of large 1:20:22.960 --> 1:20:28.320 scale like you know, like's trying to do transformation of 1:20:28.320 --> 1:20:30.799 what the society. I disagree to continue that that code 1:20:31.200 --> 1:20:34.080 to give up hope for global anarchist revolution is not 1:20:34.120 --> 1:20:38.080 to resign oneself to anarchy, remaining any to protest. Seaweed 1:20:38.120 --> 1:20:41.679 puts it well. Revolution is not everywhere or nowhere. Any 1:20:41.680 --> 1:20:44.400 bioregion can be liberated through a succession of events and 1:20:44.439 --> 1:20:47.720 strategies based in the conditions unique to it, mostly as 1:20:47.720 --> 1:20:50.080 the grip of facilitation that area weakens through its own 1:20:50.120 --> 1:20:53.800 volition for the efforts of its inhabitants. So aisation didn't 1:20:53.800 --> 1:20:55.840 succeed every at once, and so it's undoing might only 1:20:55.840 --> 1:20:59.040 occur to varying degrees in different places at different times. 1:21:00.000 --> 1:21:02.559 In if an area seemingly fully under the control of authority, 1:21:02.800 --> 1:21:05.040 they always places to go, to live in, to love in, 1:21:05.120 --> 1:21:08.360 and to resist from, and we can extend those spaces. 1:21:08.800 --> 1:21:11.679 The global situation may seem beyond us, but the local 1:21:11.800 --> 1:21:16.439 never is. And I think that's beautiful. I think that's 1:21:16.479 --> 1:21:18.960 like a That's one of the things that keeps me 1:21:19.000 --> 1:21:22.599 alive is ideas like that, honestly. And at the same time, 1:21:22.840 --> 1:21:28.519 I also hold the opinion that none of us, including 1:21:28.560 --> 1:21:31.919 this author, is a fortune teller, you know. The desert's 1:21:31.960 --> 1:21:35.760 picture of the future is not the only possibility, you know, 1:21:35.920 --> 1:21:37.920 And I think in a lot of ways and a 1:21:37.920 --> 1:21:43.439 lot always I believe that they can and have already 1:21:43.439 --> 1:21:48.120 been proven wrong, you know. Like, and there's an issue 1:21:48.160 --> 1:21:50.120 that I really take a lot of contention with the book. 1:21:50.240 --> 1:21:53.040 Part of the book that really pisces me off is 1:21:53.479 --> 1:21:58.840 the sort of persistence of the overpopulation myth. I don't 1:21:58.840 --> 1:22:01.160 remember it being sun as done since I reread it 1:22:01.479 --> 1:22:04.960 UM a couple of weeks ago. Yeah, So this sort 1:22:05.000 --> 1:22:09.200 of nonchalance the author seems to have about like mass 1:22:09.240 --> 1:22:10.840 die offs and that kind of thing, you know, I 1:22:10.840 --> 1:22:14.040 think that's very troubling to me. That's very specific to 1:22:14.120 --> 1:22:17.439 It's a type of anti civil literature that's like, we 1:22:17.560 --> 1:22:22.160 view civilization is going to progress towards genocide anyway, and 1:22:22.280 --> 1:22:25.599 the way to actually avoid more deaths is to kind 1:22:25.640 --> 1:22:29.679 of help the collapse along because that will end civilization quicker. 1:22:29.720 --> 1:22:31.479 So therefore less people, less people will be born, and 1:22:31.600 --> 1:22:34.000 less people will have to die. So that's the type 1:22:34.000 --> 1:22:36.599 of thinking they have. I don't necessarily agree with that, 1:22:37.240 --> 1:22:41.800 um necessarily, but like, yeah, that is that is very 1:22:41.800 --> 1:22:45.240 typical of this type of literature. So again because it 1:22:45.360 --> 1:22:48.840 is written mostly for other anti civ anarchists, but like, yeah, 1:22:49.280 --> 1:22:52.519 it's not like pro genocide. It's saying genocide will happen. 1:22:52.640 --> 1:22:55.080 So the way to make less of it is to 1:22:55.680 --> 1:23:00.240 actually kind of slowly start kind of help help putting 1:23:00.240 --> 1:23:03.639 the crumbles along essentially and while still you know, making 1:23:03.640 --> 1:23:06.400 people's lives better in your immediate community like with that, 1:23:06.439 --> 1:23:09.439 with that very local focus. So again not not saying 1:23:09.479 --> 1:23:12.040 I necessarily agree with that, but that's the that's the 1:23:12.120 --> 1:23:17.200 type of thought it's engaging with. I mean, I think 1:23:17.240 --> 1:23:20.800 that's true of some of it. But there is definitely 1:23:20.840 --> 1:23:24.479 a lot of like panic about there's going to be 1:23:24.560 --> 1:23:30.280 nine billion people and like population grows all the over 1:23:30.280 --> 1:23:32.880 population stuffs a little iffy, you know, there is there's 1:23:32.880 --> 1:23:35.400 a discussion to have on carring capacity, but we are 1:23:35.400 --> 1:23:37.880 not there yet. We right now we way overproduced for 1:23:37.880 --> 1:23:41.240 them for the amount of people we have. Yeah, that 1:23:41.640 --> 1:23:45.759 and that I don't know. That also frustrated me immensely. 1:23:47.600 --> 1:23:49.960 They're like, yeah, we we have becauseiner they're talking about 1:23:49.960 --> 1:23:52.720 carrying capacity, right and they're like, we already can't. We 1:23:52.760 --> 1:23:54.400 have a billion people going hungry. And it's like, yeah, 1:23:54.400 --> 1:23:56.920 but that's not about the carrying capacity. That's just that's 1:23:56.760 --> 1:24:01.120 that which was just liter that and that idea gained 1:24:01.120 --> 1:24:04.480 more prevalence after Dessert was written. We kind of more understood, 1:24:04.840 --> 1:24:08.080 like like culturally that it is a distribution issue, not 1:24:08.120 --> 1:24:11.040 necessarily a production issue. Now we do overproduce, right because 1:24:11.080 --> 1:24:13.320 and the amount of production we have contributes this tough 1:24:13.360 --> 1:24:15.280 like climate change and that is bad, so we should 1:24:15.360 --> 1:24:17.800 tone down production, but we should make the ways that 1:24:17.880 --> 1:24:21.280 it's more sustainable and ecological. Um. Yeah, that I think 1:24:21.320 --> 1:24:24.040 that does point towards the data and nature of the text. 1:24:24.920 --> 1:24:27.840 I think also my my last like thing with it 1:24:27.920 --> 1:24:33.200 is I think I think it could have benefited a 1:24:33.200 --> 1:24:37.080 lot from like in an indigenous stewardship perspective, because the 1:24:37.120 --> 1:24:39.519 way it thinks about its, particularly the way things about 1:24:39.520 --> 1:24:45.840 wildness versus conservation, is just very messy. And yeah, if 1:24:45.880 --> 1:24:49.400 it falls, it falls. It does a better job of 1:24:49.439 --> 1:24:52.960 it than some other antis of things that I've seen, 1:24:53.120 --> 1:24:56.439 but it definitely falls into the like trap of like 1:24:57.120 --> 1:24:59.799 here is the wild and then any attempt to manage 1:24:59.800 --> 1:25:03.840 it is uh, you know, is is civilization and you 1:25:03.880 --> 1:25:05.360 need to go back to the wild and it's like 1:25:06.000 --> 1:25:11.960 this is already stewarded and managed. Yeah, that is the one. Yeah, 1:25:12.160 --> 1:25:15.120 it does fall on that slope of like nature being 1:25:15.200 --> 1:25:18.880 another that is sacred, which isn't necessarily a great idea 1:25:18.960 --> 1:25:21.360 nor is it really true. Yeah, this is very two 1:25:21.720 --> 1:25:27.360 two ten. Yeah, right, So I think the book is 1:25:28.280 --> 1:25:30.840 critical conservation and that sort of binary way, And I 1:25:30.880 --> 1:25:36.800 agree that indigenous stewardship perspective was sorely needed. But at 1:25:36.840 --> 1:25:39.559 the same time, I do think that the way that 1:25:39.680 --> 1:25:45.400 the book predicises um or ever just points out Um, 1:25:45.520 --> 1:25:49.280 the su conservation may have been one may still be 1:25:49.880 --> 1:25:52.840 new for some people. You know, the idea that these 1:25:52.840 --> 1:25:59.840 sorts of government conservation projects which sort of preside over 1:25:59.880 --> 1:26:03.479 the sort of static vision of nature and ecology and 1:26:03.520 --> 1:26:08.880 stuff that is supposedly threatened by humanity. UM. I think 1:26:08.920 --> 1:26:13.880 criticizing that approach to nature's good. I mean the sort 1:26:13.880 --> 1:26:17.360 of romanticization of the wild that is very typical of 1:26:18.160 --> 1:26:23.080 anti set of text and thought. UM is very much 1:26:23.120 --> 1:26:29.759 anti Seve. But I do believe that people should look 1:26:31.000 --> 1:26:37.479 ah or should rather resist these sorts of conservation impulse. 1:26:38.840 --> 1:26:42.439 As I was rereading it a couple of weeks ago, 1:26:43.200 --> 1:26:45.920 I wanted to know, um, what you guys thought of 1:26:47.360 --> 1:26:50.080 the section of the book that speaks of the different 1:26:51.439 --> 1:26:55.240 modern different the the idea of fourth and fifth generation war. 1:26:56.920 --> 1:27:05.480 Oh boy, that's ah um um sort of a contributional 1:27:05.479 --> 1:27:10.680 approach to analyzing conflict. So I figured out, as you 1:27:10.680 --> 1:27:14.479 have been in you know, actual war Zoon's rout, that 1:27:14.560 --> 1:27:18.320 you might have a thing to see. Um. I mean, 1:27:19.160 --> 1:27:21.200 it's the kind of thing that we should probably cover 1:27:21.560 --> 1:27:24.920 in in detail on because this is a lot of 1:27:24.960 --> 1:27:27.840 like William Lynde stuff. I think he's the guy who 1:27:27.840 --> 1:27:29.840 came up with the idea of like fourth generation war 1:27:30.000 --> 1:27:33.000 less at least and it's UM. It's basically the idea. 1:27:33.280 --> 1:27:37.280 It's the idea that warfare UM today is conducted through 1:27:37.360 --> 1:27:40.479 a lot of stuff that's not conventional weaponry, right, so 1:27:40.560 --> 1:27:45.799 stuff like UM, like like like putting bought networks together 1:27:45.880 --> 1:27:49.880 to like push social division, you know through UM social 1:27:49.880 --> 1:27:55.000 media UM, or carrying out cyber attacks on infrastructure, disinformation UM, 1:27:55.040 --> 1:27:58.400 all of that kind of stuff, which is I think accurate. 1:27:58.439 --> 1:28:00.840 I've been reporting on what you could call fifth generation 1:28:00.880 --> 1:28:08.840 warfare since some UM. I think it's I think to 1:28:08.880 --> 1:28:11.360 the extent that it's relevant here. I think one thing 1:28:11.400 --> 1:28:13.720 that people on the left need to acknowledge is that 1:28:13.800 --> 1:28:18.280 they have UM been blindsided by the effectiveness that the 1:28:18.320 --> 1:28:23.400 far right has adapted to UM the key components of 1:28:23.439 --> 1:28:26.080 this kind of warfare. And I think nothing is more 1:28:26.160 --> 1:28:30.000 key than social engineering and disinformation UM, and they've been 1:28:30.080 --> 1:28:33.720 much more successful at it over the last release ince 1:28:33.720 --> 1:28:36.920 two that in fifteen in particular, UM than the left 1:28:36.960 --> 1:28:41.000 hast by basically everywhere, every and by I think, every 1:28:41.040 --> 1:28:43.960 single measure of of success. And I think this is 1:28:44.000 --> 1:28:48.960 something we should save in depth for another day. UM, 1:28:49.000 --> 1:28:52.599 but I think that it is worth acknowledging that this is. 1:28:53.000 --> 1:28:55.559 And I also think that and this is again part 1:28:55.600 --> 1:28:58.120 of a bigger conversation we talked about the concept of 1:28:58.120 --> 1:29:00.240 like culture jamming, when we talked about like operating should 1:29:00.320 --> 1:29:03.679 mind fuck you know, which is Discordian idea. Um, all 1:29:03.720 --> 1:29:06.960 of which you can see is kind of pre predecessors 1:29:06.960 --> 1:29:09.840 to the concepts of fifth generation warfare. I think there's 1:29:09.840 --> 1:29:12.479 a strong argument to be made that those efforts by 1:29:12.600 --> 1:29:17.360 leftists in the eighties and nineties in particular, actually contributed 1:29:17.560 --> 1:29:20.479 to the substantial right wing victories that we're seeing right 1:29:20.479 --> 1:29:24.120 now in this space. UM. And I think maybe it's 1:29:24.520 --> 1:29:26.559 I think there's a number of reasons for that, um, 1:29:26.680 --> 1:29:29.760 including some to some extent, the idea of arrogance, that 1:29:30.600 --> 1:29:32.479 that what that we were just too smart, that they 1:29:32.479 --> 1:29:34.680 were never going to figure out how to utilize the 1:29:34.680 --> 1:29:37.360 same means we had, or to kind of judo like 1:29:38.000 --> 1:29:40.559 take the momentum for that and spin it around on us. 1:29:40.960 --> 1:29:43.920 But they were and they did, And UM, yeah, that'll 1:29:43.960 --> 1:29:46.280 that'll lead into another episode. We'll have to talk about 1:29:46.280 --> 1:29:49.360 this in more detail. That's something like Grant Morrison actually 1:29:49.360 --> 1:29:52.240 talks a lot about in regards to discordionism and this 1:29:52.320 --> 1:29:55.479 type of how how you know he used to work 1:29:55.520 --> 1:30:00.560 for a company called Disinformation back when disinformation was yeah, yeah, 1:30:00.200 --> 1:30:03.080 and now it's like one of the leading causes of 1:30:03.400 --> 1:30:06.960 mass death in the world, right, so he That is 1:30:06.960 --> 1:30:09.000 something that Morrison talks about a lot in terms of 1:30:09.160 --> 1:30:12.080 how they did have that arrogance and now the same 1:30:12.080 --> 1:30:14.439 forces that they used in hopes of making the world 1:30:14.479 --> 1:30:17.200 better and now being used to regress the world and 1:30:17.280 --> 1:30:21.360 make it worse. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I had a big 1:30:21.400 --> 1:30:24.479 copy of Disinformation on my coffee table when I was nineteen. 1:30:24.840 --> 1:30:34.639 I just ordered good. There's some fun essays in their Garrett. Um, 1:30:34.680 --> 1:30:37.040 all right, that'll probably I mean, did you have more 1:30:37.080 --> 1:30:39.760 to say on that? And yeah, I just wanted to 1:30:39.800 --> 1:30:43.800 say that, you know, regardless of the uncertain future, um, 1:30:44.000 --> 1:30:48.200 regardless of your stance on that's its message, however flawed. 1:30:48.920 --> 1:30:54.040 Um here now, as the minor goods in Alis Souxley's 1:30:54.080 --> 1:30:59.439 Island so often repeat, um, we kind of should be 1:30:59.520 --> 1:31:01.960 attention to what we can do to support ourselves for 1:31:02.000 --> 1:31:06.479 whatever outcome you go through, you know, projects within the 1:31:06.520 --> 1:31:10.400 spaces we inhabit. I believe that I guess it could 1:31:10.400 --> 1:31:12.640 be the seed then you will. I do believe that 1:31:12.680 --> 1:31:16.360 we have an impact, a huge impact on society and 1:31:16.560 --> 1:31:21.520 on politics, and I believe there are still many possibilities 1:31:22.040 --> 1:31:27.960 for liberty still. Yeah, I I do as well. I 1:31:28.000 --> 1:31:32.040 think that acknowledging, you know, failures, both of of of 1:31:32.320 --> 1:31:35.840 you know ideas and of of methods doesn't mean m 1:31:36.080 --> 1:31:39.439 giving up hope or or ignoring the successes of those 1:31:39.479 --> 1:31:44.080 same things which which we're are also present. Um yeah, 1:31:44.280 --> 1:31:50.240 So I don't know, stay optimistic. Read something doesn't have 1:31:50.280 --> 1:31:54.360 to be a desert. But just go go read a thing. Yeah, 1:31:54.439 --> 1:31:56.679 back of your shampoo, but especially if it's Dr Browner's 1:31:56.920 --> 1:32:01.040 a lot of good stuff in there. Um right, that's 1:32:01.040 --> 1:32:12.960 gonna do it for us this week. Take care look 1:32:13.040 --> 1:32:15.880 to your children's eyes to see the true magic of 1:32:15.920 --> 1:32:19.599 a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You look 1:32:19.720 --> 1:32:22.479 and see a tree, They see the wrinkled face of 1:32:22.479 --> 1:32:26.000 a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They see 1:32:26.040 --> 1:32:29.280 treasure and pebbles. They see a windy path that could 1:32:29.360 --> 1:32:33.360 lead to adventure. And they see you. They're fearless. Guide. 1:32:33.560 --> 1:32:36.840 Is this fascinating world? Find a forest near you and 1:32:36.880 --> 1:32:39.880 start exploring and discover the forest dot org brought to 1:32:39.920 --> 1:32:42.479 you by the United States Forest Service and the AD Council. 1:32:43.680 --> 1:32:47.120 What grows in the forest trees? Sure you know what 1:32:47.200 --> 1:32:50.960 else grows in the forest. Our imagination, our sense of wonder, 1:32:51.360 --> 1:32:54.560 and our family bonds grow too, because when we disconnect 1:32:54.600 --> 1:33:01.240 from this and connect with this, we reconnect with each other. 1:33:02.000 --> 1:33:04.879 The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest 1:33:05.000 --> 1:33:08.240 near you and start exploring. I Discover the Forest dot 1:33:08.360 --> 1:33:11.120 org brought to you by the United States Forest Service 1:33:11.280 --> 1:33:14.880 and the AD Council. Hei there, I'm Scott Rank, host 1:33:14.920 --> 1:33:17.600 of the podcast History Unplugged. And if you're dreaming of 1:33:17.720 --> 1:33:20.320 being a full time podcaster someday, you and I have 1:33:20.360 --> 1:33:22.680 a lot in common. I used to teach history for 1:33:22.720 --> 1:33:25.599 a living, which was great, but I wanted something more 1:33:26.040 --> 1:33:28.200 and maybe you know what I mean. So I gave 1:33:28.240 --> 1:33:30.920 podcasting a try, and I did it with speaker from 1:33:30.920 --> 1:33:33.320 my heart. I could explain how it works in about 1:33:33.400 --> 1:33:36.000 ninety seconds, but all you really need to know now 1:33:36.240 --> 1:33:38.719 is that in my experience, the AD revenue with Spreaker 1:33:38.760 --> 1:33:40.840 has been three to four times higher than it has 1:33:40.880 --> 1:33:43.479 been with any other host I've worked with. Now I 1:33:43.520 --> 1:33:46.080 get to do what I'm passionate about teach history, but 1:33:46.280 --> 1:33:49.120 with more freedom and less stress, while still earning a 1:33:49.160 --> 1:33:52.680 respectable salary. From just getting started and doing the very 1:33:52.680 --> 1:33:55.960 basic stuff to taking your podcast in whatever direction you 1:33:56.000 --> 1:33:58.639 want to take it, Speaker has all sorts of great tools. 1:33:59.160 --> 1:34:00.600 So if you want to turn your passion into a 1:34:00.600 --> 1:34:03.880 podcast and give us a try, visit spreaker dot com. 1:34:03.920 --> 1:34:07.200 That's sp r e a k e r dot com. 1:34:07.600 --> 1:34:10.679 Get paid and talk about the things you love with Spreaker. 1:34:10.880 --> 1:34:21.640 From my heart, welcome to it could happen here the 1:34:21.680 --> 1:34:25.400 podcast we already recorded and I messed up um or 1:34:25.520 --> 1:34:27.559 something happened with the zoom and we lost the audio. 1:34:27.600 --> 1:34:30.640 So now we're recording it again, as is, as is 1:34:30.680 --> 1:34:34.639 the cycle of life. UM, thankfully I can. I'm now 1:34:34.640 --> 1:34:37.320 on my tenth shot of Espresso of the day and 1:34:37.360 --> 1:34:39.880 it is eight pm, so I'm I'm ready. I'm I'm 1:34:39.880 --> 1:34:43.160 ready this time today we're gonna be doing another one 1:34:43.200 --> 1:34:48.799 of our chronicles into open source and OSENT style research 1:34:48.880 --> 1:34:52.800 or open source verification and this kind of side of 1:34:52.800 --> 1:34:54.479 of generally, you know, this is kind of a field 1:34:54.479 --> 1:34:58.400 of like anti fascist research UM and journalism. So we're 1:34:58.400 --> 1:35:02.439 looking at one of these case studies UM. But today 1:35:02.560 --> 1:35:08.040 I have someone with me, Alistair from Opossum Press is 1:35:08.080 --> 1:35:14.080 here to talk about and UH and this type of research. Hello, Hi, 1:35:15.120 --> 1:35:17.840 thank you for being with me again on this on 1:35:17.880 --> 1:35:24.559 this call, on this very deaf experience for us. I 1:35:24.600 --> 1:35:29.519 would actually first like to talk about how Opossum Press 1:35:29.600 --> 1:35:32.720 got started as like a collective of of people dedicated 1:35:32.760 --> 1:35:39.160 towards this goal of you know, surveying the fascist creep. UM. 1:35:38.920 --> 1:35:43.439 I had an interest in UM and journalism. I have 1:35:43.479 --> 1:35:46.640 no experience in it, but I have other friends that 1:35:46.680 --> 1:35:49.320 are into writing and stuff, and I just kind of 1:35:50.479 --> 1:35:52.559 reached out to friends and like, hey, would anybody be 1:35:52.640 --> 1:35:56.920 interested in doing this? And UM there are several friends 1:35:56.960 --> 1:36:00.280 that were like, hell, yeah, let's do this, and pretty 1:36:00.360 --> 1:36:03.400 much it after we got it all formed, UM, we 1:36:03.520 --> 1:36:09.280 set up some open source intel like workshops and we'd 1:36:09.880 --> 1:36:12.120 about every other week we get together for two or 1:36:12.120 --> 1:36:17.240 three hours and learned stuff that sounds that sounds lovely actually, UM. 1:36:17.360 --> 1:36:19.800 Most of my stuff is usually done alone in my 1:36:19.880 --> 1:36:23.400 computer dark when I'm on my again tenth cup of 1:36:23.400 --> 1:36:25.519 coffee of the day, do we go sent in a 1:36:25.560 --> 1:36:26.880 group of people like that? Sounds like it could be 1:36:26.920 --> 1:36:29.559 actually kind of fun. So yeah, we're gonna In our 1:36:29.640 --> 1:36:34.080 last episode we talked about how I tracked down and 1:36:34.120 --> 1:36:36.800 found out who Written House was the night of of 1:36:37.240 --> 1:36:41.600 that happening in Kenosha um, and today we're gonna be 1:36:41.680 --> 1:36:45.920 talking about someone related to January six, um, the infamous 1:36:46.080 --> 1:36:50.439 zip tie guy as he became known for like two 1:36:50.520 --> 1:36:55.280 days on the internet before he got his actual day. UM. First, 1:36:55.280 --> 1:36:57.360 I guess I probably I probably in case you haven't 1:36:57.360 --> 1:36:59.920 listened to the previous episode I did on Written House, 1:37:00.040 --> 1:37:03.040 so probably kind of explain what open source stuff is 1:37:03.200 --> 1:37:07.320 and what like OSAN is and verification. So it's about 1:37:07.360 --> 1:37:11.800 trying to track down information using open sources um on 1:37:11.960 --> 1:37:14.080 the Internet. So in terms of like nothing is uh, 1:37:14.200 --> 1:37:17.000 it's it's all. It's it's it's it's it's already sitting there. 1:37:17.040 --> 1:37:20.840 Nothing requires like special access, nothing requires you know, you 1:37:20.960 --> 1:37:25.200 to hack into anyone's system. Um, it's it's stuff is 1:37:25.360 --> 1:37:27.679 just the stuff that's already sitting there. The data, whether 1:37:27.720 --> 1:37:30.960 that be you know, geographical data, personal data, data from 1:37:31.000 --> 1:37:34.880 social media accounts, data from every time you've entered your 1:37:34.920 --> 1:37:37.240 email into a random website that you maybe didn't know 1:37:37.400 --> 1:37:39.880 quite what's going on, but you did it. Something that's 1:37:39.920 --> 1:37:43.000 that gets stored somewhere as data and someone can probably 1:37:43.040 --> 1:37:45.400 find it. Um. So it's all the stuff about you 1:37:45.479 --> 1:37:48.000 on the Internet that is all open if you do 1:37:48.040 --> 1:37:52.320 the digging. UM. Often cases this results in going through 1:37:52.360 --> 1:37:56.400 social media profiles. UM. That is a good portion of 1:37:56.400 --> 1:37:59.320 Osan's work is learning how to use Google really well 1:37:59.520 --> 1:38:02.160 and how to how to how to go through social 1:38:02.160 --> 1:38:05.639 media UM. Start using like Google search operators, start using 1:38:05.680 --> 1:38:09.120 social media tools that help you sort through information. Because 1:38:09.160 --> 1:38:11.160 the information is there, you just have to learn how 1:38:11.160 --> 1:38:12.960 to sort through it, right, because there's just so much 1:38:13.000 --> 1:38:15.840 of it. Um. So that's kind of the just to 1:38:15.920 --> 1:38:17.559 what open source stuff is. You mean, eventually you can 1:38:17.600 --> 1:38:19.960 get into the stuff like using like Python, using code 1:38:19.960 --> 1:38:22.680 and scrapers, like. All that stuff is there too, But 1:38:22.760 --> 1:38:24.840 for our purposes, we're gonna stick to the more simplistic 1:38:24.840 --> 1:38:27.960 stuff because this is an audio format and I'm I'm 1:38:28.000 --> 1:38:34.320 not going to start explaining Python code on a podcast. UM. 1:38:34.400 --> 1:38:38.799 So let's let's let's turn back the clocks a year. UM. 1:38:39.080 --> 1:38:42.360 A little over a year and it's January six. What's 1:38:42.439 --> 1:38:45.040 kind of you or your collective's reaction just to kind 1:38:45.080 --> 1:38:48.120 of watching things unfold, you know, Like as a researcher, 1:38:48.200 --> 1:38:51.600 every every time I look at these types of you know, protests, 1:38:51.640 --> 1:38:53.559 you know, whether they be big or small, always part 1:38:53.560 --> 1:38:55.280 of my brains like trying to make connections and do 1:38:55.320 --> 1:38:58.439 stuff right. So, as January six is unfolding, what's what's 1:38:58.520 --> 1:39:01.160 kind of going through? Everyone a post and pressed his head. 1:39:01.920 --> 1:39:05.200 The first thing that seemed to be collective in everybody's 1:39:05.280 --> 1:39:08.000 mind was, oh my god, none of these people are 1:39:08.280 --> 1:39:13.599 wearing face masks. Yea, Like the immediate thing is this 1:39:13.680 --> 1:39:16.120 is probably going to be really easy for a lot 1:39:16.160 --> 1:39:19.920 of people. There's nobody. Nobody is in any type of 1:39:19.960 --> 1:39:22.599 like block or trying to hide their identity in at all, 1:39:23.000 --> 1:39:26.000 something you see the European fascists actually doing more often. 1:39:26.040 --> 1:39:28.320 There was a I think of a video from Germany 1:39:28.400 --> 1:39:29.840 of a whole bunch of far right dude was just 1:39:29.880 --> 1:39:33.040 to iatan black block, because black blocks a tactic. Um 1:39:33.080 --> 1:39:37.439 So yeah, but in the States they're specifically January six, 1:39:37.479 --> 1:39:40.439 it was, Yeah, no one was really worried about keeping 1:39:40.479 --> 1:39:42.479 their identity secret. They really did not think what they 1:39:42.479 --> 1:39:46.800 were doing was wrong. I think the other thing we 1:39:46.800 --> 1:39:51.439 were a lot of us were really angry. Um, just 1:39:52.120 --> 1:39:56.360 like we had been like yelling that this was gonna happen, 1:39:56.600 --> 1:39:59.720 screaming it out, like trying to get people to pay attention, 1:40:00.439 --> 1:40:03.599 and we got blown off so much. I remember, just 1:40:03.680 --> 1:40:06.559 like a few days before, I got in an argument 1:40:06.600 --> 1:40:09.160 with the Facebook friend and like people need to be 1:40:09.160 --> 1:40:12.799 paying attention, like they're planning something. They're like, oh, it's fine, 1:40:12.880 --> 1:40:15.960 it's fine, and then you know, just a few days later, 1:40:16.040 --> 1:40:18.760 I'm like, oh, is it fine? Like that is kind 1:40:18.760 --> 1:40:21.479 of always the curse of surveilling all of these things, 1:40:21.479 --> 1:40:24.479 whether they be like a specific event or some movement 1:40:24.560 --> 1:40:27.080 in general. Right, people who are really into q and 1:40:27.160 --> 1:40:29.599 on before the Libs knew what qunan was and we're 1:40:29.640 --> 1:40:33.280 warning about it for years before you know it resulted 1:40:33.320 --> 1:40:37.200 in people dying. Um, Right, That's that's kind of always 1:40:37.240 --> 1:40:40.160 the curse of these things is that it's it's you get, 1:40:40.160 --> 1:40:42.960 you get the mix of the shock and horder of 1:40:43.000 --> 1:40:47.080 the thing finally happening, and a weird relief. It's it's, it's, 1:40:47.080 --> 1:40:49.200 it's it's it's a very bizarre feeling to watch these 1:40:49.240 --> 1:40:53.000 things unfold because you're like, oh, I'm vindicated, but it 1:40:53.040 --> 1:40:57.520 sucks that I'm vindicated, right. I remember, like the December 1:40:58.000 --> 1:41:01.280 watching all these groups like I would just it was 1:41:01.320 --> 1:41:05.240 just filled with dread. I knew something was gonna happen. 1:41:05.280 --> 1:41:07.920 I didn't know what was gonna happen, and it was 1:41:07.960 --> 1:41:12.120 just so much anxiety. And then like it's funny, January six, 1:41:12.160 --> 1:41:14.160 after it happened, like it all went away. I was 1:41:14.200 --> 1:41:17.920 able to get a decent night sleep just because there 1:41:18.000 --> 1:41:21.200 was I didn't have that build up of suspense of 1:41:21.680 --> 1:41:24.280 what what is it gonna be? What's it gonna look like? 1:41:24.400 --> 1:41:27.840 How bad is it going to be? Um kind of 1:41:27.880 --> 1:41:32.320 had that release. Yeah. Unfortunately they were all like amateur, 1:41:32.520 --> 1:41:34.400 didn't know what they were doing, and it wasn't as 1:41:34.400 --> 1:41:38.200 bad as it could have been. Yeah. Well, I think 1:41:38.560 --> 1:41:40.400 as for the open source stuff, I'm going to kind 1:41:40.439 --> 1:41:43.639 of walk us through chronologically and of in terms of 1:41:44.000 --> 1:41:48.599 the journey of zip tie Guy, because I was doing 1:41:48.600 --> 1:41:51.439 like archiving on January six, but zip Tyke I was 1:41:51.479 --> 1:41:54.960 really the only dude I was interested in identifying. There 1:41:55.000 --> 1:41:57.120 was there was a lot of other people doing really 1:41:57.120 --> 1:42:01.600 great identification work. I was also generous six. I was 1:42:01.640 --> 1:42:04.719 going through all the social media history of Ashley Babbitt, 1:42:05.120 --> 1:42:08.879 archiving all of her Twitter and Facebook, like years of stuff. 1:42:09.200 --> 1:42:12.280 I was to chronicle how she went from like an 1:42:12.280 --> 1:42:14.800 Obama voter to a q and on from a proponent. 1:42:14.960 --> 1:42:16.519 So that was what I was doing, and I was 1:42:16.520 --> 1:42:19.680 writing an article with Belling Cat about that. Um. But 1:42:19.720 --> 1:42:21.880 the only only other guy I wanted to identify was 1:42:21.960 --> 1:42:24.439 zip tie guy because he was really interesting. He was 1:42:24.479 --> 1:42:27.519 one of the few guys that was masked up. UM, 1:42:27.600 --> 1:42:29.519 he had what he had visible weapons on him. He 1:42:29.520 --> 1:42:32.160 was obviously carrying zip ties. You know, it gives you 1:42:32.200 --> 1:42:35.000 images of like, oh yeah, it's like they're planning to 1:42:35.040 --> 1:42:37.760 capture and execute people. That was like the general kind 1:42:37.800 --> 1:42:41.559 of vibe um of that. So he was the only 1:42:41.600 --> 1:42:43.800 person that I I was actually put work into identifying, and 1:42:43.840 --> 1:42:45.960 I put a decent amount of work in. Now, I 1:42:45.960 --> 1:42:48.880 I failed where other people succeeded, and we can talk 1:42:48.880 --> 1:42:52.280 about like why in a sec But for like a 1:42:52.439 --> 1:42:54.880 day at least, all we had to go on was 1:42:55.040 --> 1:42:59.080 the picture of the guy holding the zip ties in 1:42:59.160 --> 1:43:02.680 a mask. UM. There's a few other pictures of him 1:43:02.720 --> 1:43:05.280 around from that day, but it's mostly mostly one picture 1:43:05.479 --> 1:43:09.720 and the biggest clue that we had to start with, Um, 1:43:09.760 --> 1:43:11.920 what what what what? Why don't you explain what the 1:43:11.960 --> 1:43:13.360 what the first clue is and how that may be 1:43:13.439 --> 1:43:17.880 piqued your interest. He had two patches on his vest, 1:43:18.080 --> 1:43:20.920 and one of them was a thin blue line patch, 1:43:21.000 --> 1:43:23.559 but it was in this uh shape of the state 1:43:23.600 --> 1:43:29.280 of Tennessee. So so yeah, in terms of having a 1:43:29.320 --> 1:43:32.639 decent lead, that is like, okay, well that that narrows 1:43:32.640 --> 1:43:35.360 it down to one of fifties states, probably right, Yeah, 1:43:35.479 --> 1:43:38.920 I should say I'm from Knoxville, so like it be 1:43:39.000 --> 1:43:41.840 in Tennessee that I picked up on that because that's 1:43:41.840 --> 1:43:44.320 my state. Yeah, that it becomes a local problem. I 1:43:44.439 --> 1:43:47.679 and as someone in Oregon, I definitely understand that feeling 1:43:47.760 --> 1:43:52.719 of of yeah, when fascism becomes a local problem of Yeah, 1:43:52.880 --> 1:43:56.639 So that definitely piqued your interest specifically, but then also 1:43:56.760 --> 1:43:59.000 gives a really good lead for like where to look 1:43:59.040 --> 1:44:03.639 because ozar he's not trying to do a meta thing 1:44:03.760 --> 1:44:07.040 by tricking us into giving us a false lead. Generally 1:44:07.280 --> 1:44:09.840 people don't do that as often in real life as 1:44:09.880 --> 1:44:13.559 they do in television. Um, but there's still has plenty 1:44:13.600 --> 1:44:15.479 of other ways to detect I mean, I I love 1:44:15.560 --> 1:44:18.759 I love detecting, and there's there's enough, there's enough stuff 1:44:18.800 --> 1:44:22.200 to do otherwise that making it needlessly complicated as honestly, 1:44:23.040 --> 1:44:27.400 I'm fine with it not being that. Um. So, yeah, 1:44:27.720 --> 1:44:31.960 we had we had that to go off initially, so 1:44:32.400 --> 1:44:36.160 starting looking for like far right activity in Tennessee. Now 1:44:36.200 --> 1:44:37.880 I was an outsiders. I didn't really know where to 1:44:37.920 --> 1:44:41.760 start in terms of specific rallies. But I know, used, Uh, 1:44:42.240 --> 1:44:44.439 at what point did you start looking trying to like 1:44:44.479 --> 1:44:46.519 go through pictures of specific rallies to try to like 1:44:46.640 --> 1:44:50.680 match clothing or stuff. I think it was probably it 1:44:50.720 --> 1:44:53.439 may have been that day or the day after when 1:44:53.439 --> 1:44:58.680 I started going through the notebooks that I had, like 1:44:58.880 --> 1:45:03.880 names of just people we suspected may become problems. Um, 1:45:03.960 --> 1:45:07.439 and I started looking at their profiles again and you know, 1:45:09.080 --> 1:45:12.559 didn't find anything. And in our research that we had 1:45:12.560 --> 1:45:16.439 already done, we didn't see anything on OK. Yeah, I 1:45:16.439 --> 1:45:18.000 mean that was kind of the case for me as well. 1:45:18.040 --> 1:45:20.760 With just the picture of the zip tie a guy 1:45:20.920 --> 1:45:22.960 with the patch, I mean, it's it's a lead, but 1:45:22.960 --> 1:45:27.120 there wasn't tons to go on. But thankfully, thankfully are 1:45:27.720 --> 1:45:30.760 are good friends. At January six, we're giving us more 1:45:30.760 --> 1:45:35.760 clues as because as the Simpsons meme goes videotaping this 1:45:35.840 --> 1:45:39.280 crime scene was the best idea we ever had. Um. So, 1:45:39.920 --> 1:45:44.000 like January I think seventh, there was a live stream 1:45:44.080 --> 1:45:46.920 video that was kind of circulating through like anti facist 1:45:46.920 --> 1:45:49.200 group chats um. It was. It was posted like publicly 1:45:49.320 --> 1:45:52.200 to get everyone's attention on it on January eight, um, 1:45:52.240 --> 1:45:53.759 but for like a day it was kind of passing 1:45:53.800 --> 1:45:57.679 through back channels and throughout in this live stream, which 1:45:57.680 --> 1:46:00.679 is Yeah, there was so many people were live streaming 1:46:00.760 --> 1:46:02.880 that night and it is a kind of surreal thing 1:46:02.920 --> 1:46:06.479 to watch of them. This this this live stream in particular, 1:46:06.479 --> 1:46:09.320 it is the zip Ti guy if you his friends, um, 1:46:09.320 --> 1:46:11.240 I think his mom and a few and just ran 1:46:11.320 --> 1:46:13.640 the people from January six all hanging out at a 1:46:13.680 --> 1:46:16.640 hotel room afterwards, like it's it is it is the 1:46:16.760 --> 1:46:19.280 night of the six and they're all just hanging out 1:46:19.600 --> 1:46:23.000 again totally like no masks, they're they're they're in a 1:46:23.040 --> 1:46:25.840 hotel lobby, no masks, um, and they're just like hanging 1:46:25.840 --> 1:46:27.840 out on chilly like sitting on the couch and chatting 1:46:27.840 --> 1:46:30.240 for like half an hour. It's one of the weirdest 1:46:30.320 --> 1:46:32.800 videos to watch. All all of the live streams from 1:46:32.800 --> 1:46:35.840 that night are so surreal because it is like this 1:46:35.880 --> 1:46:38.880 transitionary period of like after the capital attack but before 1:46:38.920 --> 1:46:42.200 every before, like people like go down on them, so 1:46:42.280 --> 1:46:44.439 they don't really know how to behave They still think 1:46:44.479 --> 1:46:46.559 what they did was kind of fine, even though at 1:46:46.560 --> 1:46:48.160 this point, like I think like four or five people 1:46:48.200 --> 1:46:51.479 are dead. Um, but it's so weird just watch them 1:46:51.520 --> 1:46:54.080 just interact like such normal people in this moment, like 1:46:54.320 --> 1:46:56.680 after they did this thing. Then they go in this 1:46:56.720 --> 1:46:59.439 hotel room and they're acting completely normal. So it's it's 1:46:59.479 --> 1:47:02.880 just a weird video in general. But what it does 1:47:03.000 --> 1:47:05.920 have is someone in the same outfit as zip Ti 1:47:06.000 --> 1:47:08.519 guy with no mask on you actually we actually can 1:47:08.560 --> 1:47:12.080 see his full face yea. Getting to see his full 1:47:12.120 --> 1:47:17.120 face was a big, big, health, big help because we ever, 1:47:17.439 --> 1:47:19.360 everyone was looking for pictures of this guy without his 1:47:19.439 --> 1:47:21.880 mask all like for the entirety of the day. So 1:47:21.920 --> 1:47:24.400 now having a whole video where we can see like 1:47:24.479 --> 1:47:27.719 all of the angles of him was great. It was perfect. 1:47:28.000 --> 1:47:30.439 The best. The best thing that was really the beauty 1:47:30.479 --> 1:47:33.160 of of all of of all of all the January 1:47:33.240 --> 1:47:36.439 six documentation is how many people were live streaming themselves 1:47:36.439 --> 1:47:39.200 doing crimes and their friends. Um it did. It did 1:47:39.280 --> 1:47:42.120 make the archiving and uh well not the archiving part. 1:47:42.240 --> 1:47:45.360 Archiving is always painful and tedious, but it made the 1:47:45.360 --> 1:47:47.880 actual research afterwards a lot easier because there was so 1:47:47.960 --> 1:47:51.000 much the documentation of it. So, yeah, we we got 1:47:51.000 --> 1:47:53.599 we got this video. I'm gonna explain how I kind 1:47:53.600 --> 1:47:57.360 of took this video and failed to reach the conclusion, 1:47:57.400 --> 1:48:00.360 and then we can talk about how you succeeded. But first, 1:48:00.840 --> 1:48:03.960 but first we're gonna hear some ads from our lovely 1:48:04.320 --> 1:48:08.479 products and services. Robert was here for our previous recording 1:48:08.920 --> 1:48:12.080 uh that we tried to end I failed, and he 1:48:12.160 --> 1:48:14.880 made some very good jokes uh and very good segways 1:48:14.960 --> 1:48:18.840 about how all of our sponsors support insurrection just like 1:48:18.920 --> 1:48:21.400 January six, And if I tried to repeat the jokes, 1:48:21.400 --> 1:48:23.280 it will be stupid. So I'm just gonna I'm just 1:48:23.320 --> 1:48:25.320 gonna give you the sense there was a joke, and 1:48:25.320 --> 1:48:29.439 now you're gonna be left with that dissatisfaction. So bye, goodbye. 1:48:29.560 --> 1:48:33.360 Here's some ads. Okay, we're back, and I'm going to 1:48:33.479 --> 1:48:36.200 give an extremely brief rundown on how I failed to 1:48:36.240 --> 1:48:38.760 do uh well, I didn't fail to do research. I 1:48:38.800 --> 1:48:41.400 did research. I just didn't reach a proper conclusion. Um 1:48:41.479 --> 1:48:44.720 and I knew that. So the the the other the 1:48:44.760 --> 1:48:48.120 other thing about Zip Tie Guy he had he had 1:48:48.120 --> 1:48:50.280 the patch of like the thin blue line in Tennessee. 1:48:50.640 --> 1:48:54.000 And then that's at then I soon after got the 1:48:54.520 --> 1:48:58.120 video of his face and uh interacting with people. And 1:48:58.200 --> 1:49:01.200 the the other thing is I think, um we the 1:49:01.400 --> 1:49:04.880 hat he was wearing in the Siptie Guy photo was 1:49:05.000 --> 1:49:09.080 I think was tracked back to be um our favorite 1:49:09.280 --> 1:49:13.120 coffee company, Black Rifle Coffee merchandise. It was it was 1:49:13.160 --> 1:49:15.120 like what was what was one of the hats they sell? 1:49:15.680 --> 1:49:19.160 So me, being clever, I'm like, okay, here's this Black 1:49:19.200 --> 1:49:22.599 Raffer Coffee hat, this patch in Tennessee. I know Black 1:49:22.680 --> 1:49:25.479 Ripe Coffee is based out of Tennessee. I'm gonna go 1:49:25.560 --> 1:49:27.800 look through everyone who works for Black Raffle Coffee, which 1:49:27.800 --> 1:49:30.519 you mean isn't a bad instinct as an outsider. But 1:49:30.840 --> 1:49:33.719 it did not. It did not succeed. But the funny 1:49:33.760 --> 1:49:36.800 thing is is that while looking through all the employees 1:49:36.800 --> 1:49:39.520 at Black Apple Coffee, all of them do look identical 1:49:39.560 --> 1:49:43.800 to Zip Tie Guy. They all same characteristics. They all 1:49:43.840 --> 1:49:46.839 look exactly the same on their their beards, their nose, 1:49:46.960 --> 1:49:50.439 their forehead, their hair, all of them identical, every single 1:49:50.439 --> 1:49:52.040 one of them, to the point where the only way 1:49:52.040 --> 1:49:53.960 I could tell that it wasn't the zip tie guy 1:49:54.080 --> 1:49:56.360 was being like, Okay, no, he has a mole here, 1:49:57.240 --> 1:49:59.640 he has like a birthmark here. This way, his like 1:49:59.720 --> 1:50:01.960 his eyes or his eye wrinkles are different. So it's 1:50:01.960 --> 1:50:04.759 like it's going down to the very like fine tuned 1:50:04.800 --> 1:50:09.080 facial features, because all of their face shapes are like identical. 1:50:10.000 --> 1:50:12.479 I think there's a point that I had the same instinct. 1:50:12.479 --> 1:50:15.120 I think I know there's a point that I went through, 1:50:15.479 --> 1:50:20.960 um the black coffee rifle. All of their people look um. 1:50:21.000 --> 1:50:24.280 I don't know if it was for Eric until or 1:50:24.320 --> 1:50:27.519 if it was like maybe around the written house stuff. 1:50:27.560 --> 1:50:31.920 I don't know. Uh. Yeah, So that that's that's what 1:50:31.960 --> 1:50:35.639 I spent my time doing, is going through everybody who 1:50:35.680 --> 1:50:39.760 works there of Uh. But but by the time I 1:50:39.840 --> 1:50:43.840 kind of gave up on that, the identity was already discovered, 1:50:44.720 --> 1:50:47.960 um and posted by your team at a Possum Press. 1:50:48.320 --> 1:50:51.280 So how how did you get from you know, this 1:50:52.320 --> 1:50:55.880 zip Tygi picture than the light the archived livestream video 1:50:55.920 --> 1:50:58.679 of him without without a mask, to to the point 1:50:58.680 --> 1:51:02.000 where you could say, hey, this is his name. But 1:51:02.240 --> 1:51:06.400 well I was I wasn't even really in contact with 1:51:06.640 --> 1:51:10.320 Like we as a group weren't messaging each other trying 1:51:10.360 --> 1:51:13.479 to figure this out together, but we were, like it 1:51:13.520 --> 1:51:16.320 turns out a few of us were working separately. So 1:51:16.360 --> 1:51:20.400 while I'm going through social media. UM, a friend in 1:51:20.520 --> 1:51:25.120 Nashville was um going through pictures of the protests from 1:51:25.160 --> 1:51:29.439 there over the summer, and they ended up finding about 1:51:29.479 --> 1:51:33.599 five different pictures, I think, and we knew we knew 1:51:33.640 --> 1:51:35.759 most of the people in the pictures. That are maybe 1:51:35.800 --> 1:51:37.680 like one or two that we did not know, And 1:51:37.760 --> 1:51:41.799 one was always Eric Munchell and he's wearing the exact 1:51:41.840 --> 1:51:46.439 same gear he wore January six. Um, I say, Eric Munchell, 1:51:46.479 --> 1:51:51.800 we didn't know his name yet then, so UM, from there, 1:51:51.840 --> 1:51:54.040 we kind of we went ahead and posted what we 1:51:54.160 --> 1:51:57.280 had to Twitter, and then we went back to the 1:51:57.360 --> 1:52:01.720 social media and I started looking through the UM profiles 1:52:01.760 --> 1:52:06.160 that were the people we knew, and sure enough, one 1:52:06.240 --> 1:52:10.519 of them, Kurt Dennis, had a live stream that was 1:52:10.640 --> 1:52:15.040 telling the story, um, the same story that Eric Mutchell 1:52:15.080 --> 1:52:20.040 told him that thirty minute video, and he actually while 1:52:20.160 --> 1:52:25.240 telling it, he's like, yeah, my buddy Eric. So at 1:52:25.280 --> 1:52:28.840 that point we go to his friends list and sure enough, 1:52:28.920 --> 1:52:31.919 he only has one Eric there and it's Eric Mutchell. 1:52:32.200 --> 1:52:34.680 And there we go to that page and find some 1:52:34.760 --> 1:52:36.839 of the same gear in the background of the pictures 1:52:36.880 --> 1:52:39.640 that he has publicly posted. Yeah, he like puts the 1:52:39.680 --> 1:52:42.519 pictures of him and his gear with like guns, and yeah, 1:52:42.720 --> 1:52:44.400 you can. You can track all of his like facial 1:52:44.560 --> 1:52:47.120 like like like like birth marks and stuff. They're all 1:52:47.120 --> 1:52:50.560 the same. So yeah, you and that that's you. Uh, 1:52:50.760 --> 1:52:56.040 you definitely got him of Yeah, their own mistakes. Yeah, 1:52:56.040 --> 1:52:58.960 that's that's my favorite part. Like they they gave us 1:52:59.520 --> 1:53:03.000 his idea, and they often, if not handing themselves to 1:53:03.040 --> 1:53:05.040 you on a silver pill adder, they at least have 1:53:05.080 --> 1:53:08.639 a platter um. They they often there's often enough bread, right. 1:53:08.680 --> 1:53:10.479 The reason why these things are solved because there are 1:53:10.560 --> 1:53:12.880 enough bread comes to follow and often they kind of 1:53:12.960 --> 1:53:16.639 leave pretty big chunks of bread. Um. Just the fact 1:53:16.680 --> 1:53:19.639 that again added to the surreal aspect of that whole 1:53:19.720 --> 1:53:23.360 live stream video, the fact that he's like, you matched 1:53:23.360 --> 1:53:25.840 it by telling the same you can hear them someone 1:53:25.880 --> 1:53:28.559 tell the same story, is just such a weird weird 1:53:28.600 --> 1:53:31.880 surreal thing. Yeah, so I think in terms of like 1:53:31.920 --> 1:53:35.679 oas and stuff, what this case study in particular really 1:53:36.520 --> 1:53:41.400 highlights is the importance of archival stuff. Right. The reason 1:53:41.439 --> 1:53:43.120 why you were able to solve this and not me 1:53:43.560 --> 1:53:46.559 is because I wasn't. I mean, I did my own 1:53:46.640 --> 1:53:51.080 archival thing for archiving, like the video. But um, the 1:53:51.120 --> 1:53:53.599 way that you were able to really crack this open 1:53:53.640 --> 1:53:56.280 and everyone else who worked on it is because you 1:53:56.400 --> 1:54:00.280 had like those lists of connections of people who are 1:54:00.320 --> 1:54:03.760 already kind of active in this like al right far 1:54:03.880 --> 1:54:06.519 right scene within your local community. Like you already had 1:54:06.600 --> 1:54:10.080 documentation of the major players who they interact with, or 1:54:10.200 --> 1:54:12.479 you you already had pictures of this guy in gear 1:54:12.840 --> 1:54:16.280 with other known people. So the fact that there was 1:54:16.320 --> 1:54:20.680 already previously work archived really made the success of this 1:54:21.040 --> 1:54:26.479 so much more possible. That's what they but People's Plaza 1:54:26.479 --> 1:54:29.800 and Nashville during their protests, they were really big on documenting. 1:54:30.280 --> 1:54:33.960 Um they documented everything with the police and um any 1:54:33.960 --> 1:54:38.120 counter protesters they would. They had professional photographers out there 1:54:38.920 --> 1:54:43.120 making sure we had good, clear quality pictures of like 1:54:44.000 --> 1:54:47.160 everybody on the other side as well, and that definitely 1:54:47.200 --> 1:54:51.600 helped us a lot. Yeah, because especially before January six, 1:54:52.000 --> 1:54:57.440 they there was they did a decent job of archiving themselves, 1:54:57.440 --> 1:55:00.800 well not not archiving, but like filming them selves and 1:55:00.840 --> 1:55:03.800 documenting themselves, and then you know, it takes takes other 1:55:03.800 --> 1:55:07.280 research to then archives that. So not only is important 1:55:07.320 --> 1:55:10.000 just to like look at the research and look at 1:55:10.040 --> 1:55:12.600 like the documentation of the that people do of themselves, 1:55:12.760 --> 1:55:14.400 but then make sure that you have a source for 1:55:14.440 --> 1:55:17.800 that that's not their own uploading of it. Right. So, 1:55:17.880 --> 1:55:20.720 like a great example is like all of the live 1:55:20.760 --> 1:55:22.720 streams from January six, including like this one from this 1:55:22.720 --> 1:55:25.280 hotel room. Pretty soon it was deleted by the person 1:55:25.320 --> 1:55:27.839 who posted it because they realized, oh maybe I shouldn't 1:55:27.880 --> 1:55:31.240 have this living record of my crimes. Um. But at 1:55:31.280 --> 1:55:34.040 that point, people already saved the video. They already like 1:55:34.320 --> 1:55:37.240 I already ran it through a video of saving program 1:55:37.480 --> 1:55:41.200 that I had. UM. So it's it's important not only 1:55:41.240 --> 1:55:46.200 to get archiving having having having previous documentation of people 1:55:46.200 --> 1:55:49.200 and known players, but then as new information is coming out, 1:55:49.440 --> 1:55:51.520 make sure you make separate copies of that for your 1:55:51.520 --> 1:55:54.200 own sake so that you actually have it and then 1:55:54.200 --> 1:55:57.080 you're not gonna be stuck looking for something that's gone right, 1:55:57.240 --> 1:56:00.000 the worst case scenarios to like you know that there 1:56:00.040 --> 1:56:02.560 is an important thing, but you just don't have access 1:56:02.600 --> 1:56:04.880 to it anymore. It's like you you remember seeing it, 1:56:05.000 --> 1:56:07.320 you didn't save it, and now it's gone. That's a 1:56:07.320 --> 1:56:09.320 horrible feeling to do when you're trying to get this 1:56:09.400 --> 1:56:12.680 kind of research done. Um. And like it happens. We all, 1:56:12.760 --> 1:56:15.480 we all make mistakes like this. Um, I definitely have 1:56:15.600 --> 1:56:18.560 it happened to me actually this week. Yeah, it happens 1:56:18.600 --> 1:56:20.840 all the time. And it happens to me. It happens 1:56:20.880 --> 1:56:22.440 to be all the time. I'll look at something and 1:56:22.520 --> 1:56:24.880 be like I should probably save this. I get distracted 1:56:25.200 --> 1:56:26.960 or I just don't want to because our chindague is 1:56:27.000 --> 1:56:29.640 boring and tedious, and then I check again that's gone. 1:56:29.680 --> 1:56:33.800 I'm like, well that's I should have archived it. Yeah. 1:56:34.480 --> 1:56:37.120 So on on top of all of the archiving stuff, 1:56:37.200 --> 1:56:40.200 which in general, anti fascist research is really that that's 1:56:40.240 --> 1:56:43.560 the thing that really excels at even like um above 1:56:43.760 --> 1:56:48.120 above journalism is like you know, getting like traditional journalism 1:56:48.280 --> 1:56:51.959 is like getting a good documentation of like key fascist 1:56:51.960 --> 1:56:54.640 players in your area, key people who are kind of 1:56:54.680 --> 1:56:57.480 pushing far right stuff and far right violence. Actually getting 1:56:57.480 --> 1:57:00.240 like a good a good, a good idea of who 1:57:00.280 --> 1:57:04.000 they are and having that knowledge always handy. Um is 1:57:04.040 --> 1:57:07.160 something that this type of research is is really that 1:57:07.320 --> 1:57:09.720 that is really what it excels at, or like what 1:57:09.720 --> 1:57:12.160 what the what those researchers excel at. This is the 1:57:12.160 --> 1:57:14.200 thing that they do very well. I think a lot 1:57:14.280 --> 1:57:17.360 of us probably started doing it just out of curiosity 1:57:17.480 --> 1:57:21.560 looking into people. That that is certainly how I started, 1:57:22.760 --> 1:57:26.240 Like I've been doing it long before, I just didn't 1:57:26.280 --> 1:57:29.000 know that's what it was called. Because like I'd see 1:57:29.040 --> 1:57:32.840 somebody make a messed up common online, I'm like, who 1:57:32.960 --> 1:57:35.240 is this person? And then you know, trying to find 1:57:35.240 --> 1:57:39.160 as much as I can about them. Yeah, that's that 1:57:39.280 --> 1:57:41.160 is certainly how I got started with this type of thing, 1:57:41.560 --> 1:57:45.080 because it can be fun to look for bad people. 1:57:45.200 --> 1:57:49.400 It is, it is. It is kind of pleasurable. Um 1:57:49.480 --> 1:57:53.520 and one of one of the again another big contributing factor. 1:57:53.560 --> 1:57:55.760 And how you got zip tie guy, How how I 1:57:55.800 --> 1:57:58.280 got written? How how a lot of this stuff works. 1:57:58.760 --> 1:58:02.200 Um is the beauty of Facebook as a research tool 1:58:03.080 --> 1:58:06.640 because often in order in order in order to do 1:58:06.680 --> 1:58:09.440 the archiving, you need to have stuff to archive, and 1:58:09.480 --> 1:58:11.640 a lot of the stuff that gets posted from these 1:58:11.640 --> 1:58:15.760 things by the people doing them UM is done on Facebook, 1:58:15.880 --> 1:58:19.440 or at least it used to write the past five years, really, 1:58:19.800 --> 1:58:23.200 Facebook has been the main main source of this UM. 1:58:23.280 --> 1:58:25.760 Now it's maybe now people are kind of getting wise 1:58:25.840 --> 1:58:28.520 and maybe some stuff is moving to telegram. Facebook is 1:58:28.520 --> 1:58:30.640 becoming a little a little bit less important of a 1:58:30.640 --> 1:58:32.960 platform for this type of research. And I know Facebook 1:58:32.960 --> 1:58:35.280 has changed the way that they um that you can 1:58:35.560 --> 1:58:37.840 use their service, so it does make research kind of 1:58:37.880 --> 1:58:40.480 harder in some ways, but but even still it is 1:58:40.600 --> 1:58:43.800 it is one of the better tools to UM to 1:58:43.920 --> 1:58:46.040 dig into certain types of people, because there is certain 1:58:46.080 --> 1:58:48.080 types of people who are going to be more likely 1:58:48.120 --> 1:58:53.760 to use Facebook. UM. And yeah, in terms of how 1:58:54.400 --> 1:58:58.640 getting Facebook was the method, it's not where the place 1:58:58.720 --> 1:59:01.280 where you're able to make the link between the fascists 1:59:01.280 --> 1:59:05.800 you already knew and and Eric um because of because 1:59:05.840 --> 1:59:07.680 you are you already you you already knew who the 1:59:07.680 --> 1:59:10.680 players were, and then Facebook had the visualized network to 1:59:10.720 --> 1:59:14.880 actually make those connections. So Facebook itself and social media 1:59:14.880 --> 1:59:17.680 in general is really is really useful. And then in 1:59:17.760 --> 1:59:19.800 terms of how this operate, it's like going through friends 1:59:19.840 --> 1:59:23.600 lists is really easy. UM but oftentimes a lot of 1:59:23.600 --> 1:59:26.839 people will not maybe have those public um and what 1:59:26.880 --> 1:59:30.040 what then there's again it's not a dead road. You 1:59:30.040 --> 1:59:32.760 can still look through likes, you can still look through shares, 1:59:32.840 --> 1:59:35.160 you can still look through like um if you like 1:59:35.400 --> 1:59:39.440 people are tagged in photos. Um it it really it 1:59:39.520 --> 1:59:42.360 really is a is a great is a great system 1:59:42.400 --> 1:59:46.000 that is good at making you not have privacy. That 1:59:46.120 --> 1:59:49.880 is the thing. It really it really excels it. Yeah, 1:59:50.000 --> 1:59:53.960 and even even if people don't have like an active 1:59:54.280 --> 1:59:58.480 social media presence per se um, it can still be 1:59:58.600 --> 2:00:02.120 really useful in getting specific names of people or or 2:00:02.200 --> 2:00:06.080 just make or just having a connection be known like this. 2:00:06.080 --> 2:00:09.640 This was mostly how I was able to identify the 2:00:10.160 --> 2:00:13.320 all the anonymous um riot cops in when when the 2:00:13.320 --> 2:00:17.040 Portland Police Bureau took took away their badge numbers and names. 2:00:17.680 --> 2:00:20.360 Um is that I could get like a list of 2:00:20.400 --> 2:00:22.880 cops and we could start figuring out like, okay, this 2:00:22.960 --> 2:00:25.640 is probably this is this is this is pre cops 2:00:25.680 --> 2:00:28.640 previously on the right team, right, and start doing facial 2:00:28.680 --> 2:00:31.360 matching um and then if I want to learn out 2:00:31.440 --> 2:00:33.880 if if I wanna if I want to learn more 2:00:33.880 --> 2:00:36.680 information about like their first name and more information about 2:00:36.720 --> 2:00:39.440 them in general, even if they don't have a social 2:00:39.480 --> 2:00:44.040 media profile, often their wife might or their mom might. 2:00:44.400 --> 2:00:47.480 You know, there's a UM And in terms of fun 2:00:47.560 --> 2:00:51.000 sentences to say, really learning how to exploit people's family 2:00:51.000 --> 2:00:53.880 as a weakness is is is wonderful um for this 2:00:53.960 --> 2:00:59.200 type of stalking stalking violent bad people. UM Because yeah, 2:00:59.240 --> 2:01:01.160 because a lot of a lot of a lot of 2:01:01.200 --> 2:01:03.560 the riot cops were smart enough to not to at 2:01:03.600 --> 2:01:05.680 least to either not have their presence at all on 2:01:05.720 --> 2:01:08.800 the internet UM or to have it very locked down 2:01:08.840 --> 2:01:10.480 in terms of you know, no one can see their posts, 2:01:10.520 --> 2:01:12.520 no one can see their friends, no one can see anything. 2:01:12.920 --> 2:01:16.360 But still their wife will occasionally tag them in photos 2:01:16.520 --> 2:01:18.880 or uh maybe not even photos of them, but like 2:01:19.120 --> 2:01:20.720 they'll they'll just take them in a photo of like 2:01:20.760 --> 2:01:23.280 their kid or something. And then this just creates more 2:01:23.320 --> 2:01:25.400 ways to make connections that you can you know, learn 2:01:25.480 --> 2:01:29.840 more about these specific people. UM because sometimes that's fun 2:01:29.880 --> 2:01:34.000 and interesting. I've noticed some people with socks that I've 2:01:34.040 --> 2:01:39.839 found their identity. It's by going through the likes and seeing, um, 2:01:39.920 --> 2:01:42.520 you know, the same woman is always the first to 2:01:42.560 --> 2:01:45.720 put a heart react there, and you can go to 2:01:45.760 --> 2:01:48.080 their pages sometimes it's a little if you go through 2:01:48.080 --> 2:01:51.240 their pictures and you see a picture of the guy 2:01:51.760 --> 2:01:55.080 there with they'll have like somebody in the comments, Oh, 2:01:55.160 --> 2:01:59.400 Mark looks really good. There something you know. Naming the 2:02:00.000 --> 2:02:01.880 it's been in frim Mary, you can get the last name. 2:02:01.960 --> 2:02:05.040 You know, you've ne the wife's last name, you have 2:02:05.080 --> 2:02:09.600 a good chance of that being their last name. Yeah. Yeah, 2:02:09.800 --> 2:02:15.200 So Family Families really is really great for finding people 2:02:15.200 --> 2:02:18.240 because because like all the research is is learning how 2:02:18.280 --> 2:02:20.680 to make these open sourced connections, right, A lot a 2:02:20.680 --> 2:02:25.640 lot of it is connections and networking, and people usually 2:02:25.680 --> 2:02:29.840 always have an innate connection and networking and that that 2:02:29.840 --> 2:02:32.640 that is their family UM. And often this like extends 2:02:32.680 --> 2:02:34.960 out in terms of you know, political organizing, whether you're 2:02:35.000 --> 2:02:38.560 part of you know, militias or just kind of smaller groups. Yeah, 2:02:38.680 --> 2:02:42.440 that is another network. Um Friends is another network. But 2:02:42.560 --> 2:02:44.120 you know, for people who are kind of are are 2:02:44.160 --> 2:02:47.280 more locked down, it is possible to find the information 2:02:47.320 --> 2:02:50.760 about people, um, you know, especially if they have like 2:02:50.960 --> 2:02:52.840 if they have like a not very common last name, 2:02:53.200 --> 2:02:55.600 you know, that can make finding information about them much 2:02:55.640 --> 2:02:58.320 easier if you're using tools like Facebook, um, and then 2:02:58.320 --> 2:02:59.760 it's you know, just a matter of doing all the 2:02:59.760 --> 2:03:03.360 other you know, open source research of you know, comparing clothing, um, 2:03:03.440 --> 2:03:05.360 you know, and comparing to what other kind of information 2:03:05.400 --> 2:03:09.560 you already know about the person, email addresses, phone numbers, 2:03:09.600 --> 2:03:11.760 if you can, you know, get that, get that kind 2:03:11.760 --> 2:03:13.720 of stuff as well. But I think that's all I 2:03:13.800 --> 2:03:17.720 had on Zip tie guy out mostly. M Yeah, he's 2:03:17.760 --> 2:03:19.760 a really easy one. There's not a whole lot to 2:03:19.840 --> 2:03:24.800 really dive into their Yeah, no, for for someone for 2:03:25.640 --> 2:03:28.480 someone who was one of the few people massed up, 2:03:29.240 --> 2:03:33.320 wasn't was not was not that hard to find. I mean, yeah, 2:03:33.440 --> 2:03:37.040 of course, the fact that he was found by local 2:03:37.040 --> 2:03:40.800 people in his area not surprising. Um. That's another thing 2:03:40.840 --> 2:03:42.960 anti fascist research is really good at, is that type 2:03:42.960 --> 2:03:46.080 of local research, because you know, they they have they 2:03:46.080 --> 2:03:49.600 have all those local connections, they have those local um 2:03:49.760 --> 2:03:52.600 documentation of like a political events that have happened in 2:03:52.640 --> 2:03:56.240 their area. So again, it's the the importance of of 2:03:56.280 --> 2:03:58.680 having stuff archives and having stuff like sorted and having 2:03:58.720 --> 2:04:01.800 stuff organized well so you can access your archives. Information 2:04:02.080 --> 2:04:04.840 is really important. It's it's it sucks that it's it's 2:04:04.880 --> 2:04:08.800 the part of OS and I hate the most. Everyone 2:04:08.960 --> 2:04:12.840 Everyone hates, Everyone hates I'm I'm sure there's some sick 2:04:12.880 --> 2:04:15.960 of out there who likes it, but everyone else, everyone 2:04:16.000 --> 2:04:19.040 else hates all of the You hate all this organizing 2:04:19.040 --> 2:04:23.120 and sorting. And I find archiving to be tedious. Archiving videos, 2:04:23.120 --> 2:04:28.400 live streams, it's tedious, it's difficult. Um, it's time, it's 2:04:28.440 --> 2:04:32.320 time consuming, it's repetitive, it's not generally not a good time, 2:04:32.720 --> 2:04:36.320 but it is so useful and in the long run 2:04:36.360 --> 2:04:38.640 of trying to get these like a list of of 2:04:38.720 --> 2:04:41.280 like established players in your area. This is how you 2:04:41.280 --> 2:04:44.480 start seeing patterns, right. You need to have this information 2:04:44.520 --> 2:04:47.440 already laid out so you can actually watch the patterns unfold. 2:04:47.760 --> 2:04:50.000 Otherwise it's just a whole bunch of chaotic information that 2:04:50.040 --> 2:04:54.040 means nothing. So it's it's super important, as as much 2:04:54.040 --> 2:05:00.120 of a bummer as it may be. Yeah, let's see, Um, 2:05:00.240 --> 2:05:01.960 is there anything you've been working on since then that 2:05:02.040 --> 2:05:03.520 you like that you would like to talk about, or 2:05:03.520 --> 2:05:09.000 any upcoming research projects. Right now, I'm really focused on 2:05:09.080 --> 2:05:13.840 our local UM school board, and you know, like many 2:05:13.880 --> 2:05:17.760 towns across the country, we have fascists trying to take 2:05:17.800 --> 2:05:21.600 it over and going to the meetings, and so I've 2:05:21.640 --> 2:05:25.960 been watching that group very closely for the last several months. 2:05:26.080 --> 2:05:31.440 It's probably about October our school year. We started out 2:05:31.520 --> 2:05:39.080 without a mask mandate. UM and a couple of parrots. UM, 2:05:39.200 --> 2:05:44.680 who's children need like they're there, I mean a compromise 2:05:44.840 --> 2:05:48.120 like their their kids need the everybody else to wear 2:05:48.160 --> 2:05:51.520 a mask. So their parents sued the school board and 2:05:51.640 --> 2:05:56.120 our governor UM to have a mass band aid, and 2:05:56.160 --> 2:06:00.880 the judge issued an injunction and like the next Monday, 2:06:00.960 --> 2:06:04.040 all the schools had to wear a mask. And the 2:06:04.280 --> 2:06:07.600 anti mask crowd is like losing their ship over it. 2:06:07.720 --> 2:06:13.080 Still UM trying to figure out how to fire the judge. UM. 2:06:13.080 --> 2:06:17.839 It's like, yeah, we have a member of Patriot Church 2:06:18.680 --> 2:06:21.000 who's involved in it, and you know they're the ones 2:06:21.080 --> 2:06:23.760 with the Church of plan Parenthood. It's Ken Peter too. 2:06:24.320 --> 2:06:28.520 I think he's from Washington, yes, spoken, I believe, yeah, 2:06:28.560 --> 2:06:31.040 and he's he's moved down here. UM. I think he 2:06:31.160 --> 2:06:35.120 still goes up there to the to the church stuff, 2:06:35.160 --> 2:06:37.080 but most of his time is spent down here in 2:06:37.120 --> 2:06:40.560 Tennessee and m causing just as much trouble as he 2:06:40.600 --> 2:06:44.960 does up there and his followers. So I'm curious to 2:06:44.960 --> 2:06:48.680 see how how does a research project like this school 2:06:48.720 --> 2:06:51.960 board thing differ from like the research surrounding you know, 2:06:51.960 --> 2:06:58.560 trying to identify someone at January six. Um, for one, 2:07:00.040 --> 2:07:02.240 this is local. It's you know, I'm going to the 2:07:02.240 --> 2:07:06.080 school board meetings. Um, I know it's easier to know 2:07:06.160 --> 2:07:08.720 where to look for this because like I'm watching it 2:07:08.800 --> 2:07:13.000 as it happening, where, like you know, January six, most 2:07:13.000 --> 2:07:15.000 of those people you have no clue where to even 2:07:15.080 --> 2:07:20.880 start from. Um, So this more now, it's it's monitoring 2:07:21.040 --> 2:07:24.680 and documenting as we've you know, figure out who these 2:07:24.720 --> 2:07:30.200 people are, like linking telegram names with Facebook names and 2:07:30.240 --> 2:07:33.280 all of that. So I guess now it's more record 2:07:33.400 --> 2:07:38.040 keeping and getting that documentation done early so when one 2:07:38.080 --> 2:07:42.000 of them goes too far, we have and we haven't ready. 2:07:42.320 --> 2:07:45.240 I mean, that's that's that's the sad part where it's 2:07:45.240 --> 2:07:48.200 like you're watching inevitive inevitability almost as it can mean. 2:07:48.280 --> 2:07:50.600 But that's yeah, that's also how like January six works. Right, 2:07:50.960 --> 2:07:53.320 we were able to identify these people because there was 2:07:53.680 --> 2:07:56.920 a lot of documentation of a lot of major players already. Right, 2:07:57.040 --> 2:07:59.760 So a lot of the work in between these big 2:07:59.760 --> 2:08:03.320 pro tests and events is is the is this is 2:08:03.360 --> 2:08:06.520 the slow, tedious documentation because we have to do it 2:08:06.560 --> 2:08:08.920 now so that it's a useful later. Let's you know, 2:08:09.160 --> 2:08:13.000 A big part of research is like yeah, trying to 2:08:13.600 --> 2:08:17.920 spot potential you know, issues and archiving it and then 2:08:18.080 --> 2:08:20.400 if the issue ever becomes a bigger issue, you already 2:08:20.400 --> 2:08:23.240 have information on it, right, whether that be you know, 2:08:23.400 --> 2:08:26.920 watching someone online who you might think is who like, 2:08:26.920 --> 2:08:28.760 watching someone who's like a Nazi who you might be 2:08:29.000 --> 2:08:31.680 worried that, like they're posting and plans about how to 2:08:31.880 --> 2:08:35.160 kill people. You're like, okay, so probably look into this 2:08:35.240 --> 2:08:38.000 dude because he's doing this in case he does something 2:08:38.040 --> 2:08:41.280 in the future. Um, it is that is kind of 2:08:43.040 --> 2:08:45.680 it sucks because yeah, you are watching this thing where 2:08:45.720 --> 2:08:48.320 you feel kind of helpless, but you know that documenting 2:08:48.360 --> 2:08:52.240 it is worthwhile. Um they get oah. It's the same 2:08:52.240 --> 2:08:55.160 thing where like you don't want to be vindicated, but 2:08:55.440 --> 2:09:00.280 if it does happen, it's better to be prepared. I 2:09:00.320 --> 2:09:03.360 don't think people realize like how much anti fascist research, 2:09:03.400 --> 2:09:06.400 how much of this type of like ohs and stuff 2:09:06.520 --> 2:09:09.080 like my journalism, Like most of the work that you 2:09:09.160 --> 2:09:11.920 put into it is never seen. Even if you do 2:09:11.960 --> 2:09:16.240 complete investigations. Sometimes by the end you're like it's getting 2:09:16.520 --> 2:09:18.680 getting them, getting them out in enough time for them 2:09:18.680 --> 2:09:21.680 to be useful. Sometimes it isn't even worth it. Um. 2:09:21.760 --> 2:09:23.240 So you know a lot of it is, you know, 2:09:23.680 --> 2:09:26.000 writing stuff and doing research that never actually sees the 2:09:26.560 --> 2:09:29.400 light of day for a long long time. Right with 2:09:29.560 --> 2:09:33.200 Eric Mountchell. We had like probably twenty people we had 2:09:33.280 --> 2:09:36.440 on our list too, and he wasn't even one of them. Yeah, 2:09:36.520 --> 2:09:39.600 so you do all this and like, on one hand, 2:09:39.640 --> 2:09:43.160 it almost felt in a moment like all of that 2:09:43.200 --> 2:09:45.320 we did was really for nothing. But now it did 2:09:45.440 --> 2:09:49.400 lead to Yeah, it did lead. And even when you 2:09:49.440 --> 2:09:54.800 do find the correct answer, sometimes sometimes could via circumstances. 2:09:54.920 --> 2:09:57.360 You know, it's not something you need to post about immediately. 2:09:57.440 --> 2:10:00.840 Sometimes it's worth just you know, hanging onto um and 2:10:00.920 --> 2:10:04.480 not being super super public about every horrible thing you fight. 2:10:04.480 --> 2:10:07.240 It's not like you don't need to post every time 2:10:07.280 --> 2:10:10.200 you fight a horrible thing on telegram. You don't. You 2:10:10.240 --> 2:10:12.360 don't need to tell Twitter that. It's like, it's it's 2:10:12.360 --> 2:10:19.400 about collecting these things and keeping them there for future use. Um. Well, 2:10:20.000 --> 2:10:21.720 thank you so much for coming on to talk with 2:10:21.760 --> 2:10:28.280 me again, um after after already already discussing uh, mostly 2:10:29.040 --> 2:10:33.520 the same things. Where can people follow your stuff online? 2:10:34.040 --> 2:10:40.360 We're on Twitter at um at a possum press really easy. Yeah, 2:10:40.480 --> 2:10:43.520 we're on Facebook. We don't actually do much on Facebook though. 2:10:43.720 --> 2:10:47.120 Um yeah, as we've discussed now, you probably probably shouldn't. 2:10:47.920 --> 2:10:50.640 I mean, like in in a lot of ways, a 2:10:50.680 --> 2:10:52.480 lot of like fashions organizing that you used to be 2:10:52.520 --> 2:10:55.240 done in primarily like Facebook groups or just even just 2:10:55.280 --> 2:10:58.400 like through like like incidental organizing through just through like 2:10:58.440 --> 2:11:00.640 posting and cross posting. A lot of that has been 2:11:00.880 --> 2:11:03.440 moved over to Telegram at this point. Telegram is kind 2:11:03.440 --> 2:11:07.120 of the new main nexus, whereas Facebook and like the 2:11:07.160 --> 2:11:09.880 days of the early alt right, Facebook was a pretty 2:11:09.920 --> 2:11:13.480 big nexus for like the more normalis right. You know 2:11:13.760 --> 2:11:16.960 it's there. There is actually fascist forms that we're doing organizing, 2:11:17.280 --> 2:11:19.000 but as a place for Again, like a lot of 2:11:19.040 --> 2:11:21.920 people in January six who didn't really know what they 2:11:21.920 --> 2:11:24.680 were doing was wrong. They were mostly you know, make 2:11:24.720 --> 2:11:27.960 American Great again people or quing on people. A good 2:11:28.000 --> 2:11:31.240 portion of like most of them were not you know, 2:11:31.480 --> 2:11:35.320 swastika waving Nazis. Um. They may they may agree with 2:11:35.360 --> 2:11:39.520 fascist ideas, but they don't they don't self describe as Nazis. 2:11:39.760 --> 2:11:42.839 So like, um, but we're even seeing after after January 2:11:42.880 --> 2:11:45.320 six with you know, um Facebook like cracking down on 2:11:45.360 --> 2:11:48.960 these groups, other platforms like Partla going offline a lot 2:11:49.000 --> 2:11:53.280 of these normies themselves, or even migrating onto Telegram. UM. 2:11:53.400 --> 2:11:55.880 So you know, Facebook used to be a really great 2:11:55.920 --> 2:11:58.120 research tool and I'm using it less and left off 2:11:58.240 --> 2:12:01.120 less and less often now on fourtunately because I mean, 2:12:01.760 --> 2:12:04.360 it really didn't have a lot of strong suits. Telegram 2:12:04.360 --> 2:12:06.360 doesn't have his own strong suits. But you know, it's 2:12:06.440 --> 2:12:10.080 it's still it's still different. I think the norm is 2:12:10.160 --> 2:12:15.880 moved into Telegram is troubling though, because a way easier 2:12:15.920 --> 2:12:20.440 time that is there. That is the obvious thing is, Yeah, 2:12:20.560 --> 2:12:23.560 now that those groups are in closer proximity, it's easier 2:12:23.600 --> 2:12:26.440 for one to seep into the other, whereas before there 2:12:26.520 --> 2:12:30.040 was more of that distinction. Um. Yes, that is a 2:12:30.080 --> 2:12:32.320 worrying thing that I believe we've talked about before and 2:12:32.360 --> 2:12:35.880 we'll talk about again um in the future, in terms 2:12:35.960 --> 2:12:39.920 of having this like fascist milieu or cultic milieu, UM 2:12:39.960 --> 2:12:42.840 of a place where the the amount of the amount 2:12:42.880 --> 2:12:47.160 of overlap between you know, your uncle who's a regular 2:12:47.200 --> 2:12:50.640 Conservative and you know a member of Adam often, or 2:12:50.680 --> 2:12:52.960 you know someone who wishes they remember ab Adam often. 2:12:53.480 --> 2:12:56.760 Um is very small. It's an these they are they 2:12:56.800 --> 2:13:02.080 are very close together. Yeah, well, thank you for talking 2:13:02.160 --> 2:13:05.560 about all of these things on our on our second 2:13:05.800 --> 2:13:10.040 o Sand Case study episode. Like guess big big big 2:13:10.040 --> 2:13:14.040 takeaways is uh, archiving is great, archive live streams, archived 2:13:14.080 --> 2:13:17.280 things because it's better to have them um and not 2:13:17.400 --> 2:13:20.800 use them than not have them and need them. Um. 2:13:20.840 --> 2:13:23.880 And then you know, archiving and documenting local fascists is 2:13:23.920 --> 2:13:26.360 really great even for things beyond your locality, like in 2:13:26.480 --> 2:13:30.240 January six. Um, so those are those are my main 2:13:30.320 --> 2:13:33.200 takeaways from this and uh, you know, also everyone a 2:13:33.200 --> 2:13:35.960 black life coffee. They all they all look like everyone 2:13:35.960 --> 2:13:39.960 at day six, all of them do they do all right? 2:13:40.600 --> 2:13:42.600 That doesn't for us, Thank you so much. I can 2:13:42.600 --> 2:13:53.000 follow the metoposus and press um good bye. Everybody. 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Dot org brought to you 2:14:20.080 --> 2:14:22.520 by the United States Forest Service and the AD Council. 2:14:23.200 --> 2:14:25.400 If I could be you and you could be me 2:14:25.800 --> 2:14:28.120 for just one hour, if you could find a way 2:14:28.280 --> 2:14:31.880 to get inside each other's mind, walk a mile in 2:14:32.000 --> 2:14:36.920 my shoes, wac a mile in my shoes. Shoes. We've 2:14:36.960 --> 2:14:40.280 all felt left out, and for some that feeling lasts 2:14:40.320 --> 2:14:43.640 more than a moment. We can change that. Learn how 2:14:43.680 --> 2:14:46.320 it belonging begins with us. Dot org. Brought to you 2:14:46.440 --> 2:14:53.800 by the AD Council. Welcome out in machines and we're 2:14:53.880 --> 2:14:57.440 live here outside the Perez family home, just waiting for 2:14:57.560 --> 2:15:00.600 the And there they go, almost on time. This morning, 2:15:00.720 --> 2:15:03.080 Mom is coming out the front door, strong with a 2:15:03.120 --> 2:15:05.960 double arm kid carry. Looks like dad has the bags. 2:15:06.040 --> 2:15:09.320 Daughter is bringing up the rear. Oh but the diaper 2:15:09.360 --> 2:15:14.640 bag wasn't closed. Diapers and toys are everywhere. Oh but 2:15:14.920 --> 2:15:17.920 mom has just nailed the perfect car seat buckle for 2:15:18.000 --> 2:15:20.960 the toddler. And now the eldest daughter, who looks to 2:15:20.960 --> 2:15:23.600 be about nine or ten, has secured herself in the 2:15:23.640 --> 2:15:27.120 booster seat. Dad zips the bad clothes and they're off, 2:15:28.120 --> 2:15:30.440 But looks like Mom doesn't realize her coffee cup is 2:15:30.480 --> 2:15:34.640 still on the roof of the car and there it goes. Oh, 2:15:35.120 --> 2:15:38.080 that's a shame that mug was a fan favorite. Don't 2:15:38.080 --> 2:15:40.640 sweat the small stuff. Just nailed the big stuff, like 2:15:40.720 --> 2:15:42.520 making sure your kids are buckled correctly in the right 2:15:42.520 --> 2:15:44.680 seat for their agent's eyes. Learn more n h t 2:15:44.840 --> 2:15:47.400 s A dot gov Slash the Right Seat visits h 2:15:48.080 --> 2:15:51.360 s A dot gov Slash the Right Seat, brought to 2:15:51.400 --> 2:16:00.400 you by NITZA and the ad Council. Welcome back, it 2:16:00.480 --> 2:16:04.240 could happen here the only podcast you are legally allowed 2:16:04.280 --> 2:16:07.440 to listen to right now. Um, I'm Robert Evans. We 2:16:07.520 --> 2:16:11.120 talk about things falling apart, putting them back together, all 2:16:11.160 --> 2:16:15.200 that good stuff. With me as it's like seventy of 2:16:15.240 --> 2:16:19.400 the time. Is my co host Garrison Davis Garrison, how 2:16:19.440 --> 2:16:22.680 are you doing today? I'm doing great. This is early 2:16:22.760 --> 2:16:25.080 for you. Yeah. I get they have to they have 2:16:25.120 --> 2:16:27.480 to drag me out of bed, but I I made 2:16:27.520 --> 2:16:32.080 it just I'm excited to talk about a hair after three. Okay, 2:16:32.640 --> 2:16:35.760 I have my second coffee already, So our topic is 2:16:36.800 --> 2:16:40.240 gun culture. Uh, and to discuss gun culture with me 2:16:40.360 --> 2:16:42.280 and a number of aspects of it, including how to 2:16:42.440 --> 2:16:45.920 maybe make a better one. Uh. Is Carl cassarda from 2:16:46.200 --> 2:16:50.400 ranged TV. Carl, Welcome to the program. Hey, thanks for 2:16:50.480 --> 2:16:52.960 having me. I'm really stoked to be here. And it's 2:16:52.959 --> 2:16:55.080 a topic, as you can imagine with my work on 2:16:55.280 --> 2:16:57.520 range TV, is a near and dear to my heart 2:16:57.560 --> 2:16:59.959 because it's a challenging one. We've got a lot of 2:17:00.000 --> 2:17:01.840 are things in this community and a lot of challenges 2:17:01.840 --> 2:17:05.760 to Yeah, gun YouTube has gone some really interesting places 2:17:05.800 --> 2:17:09.160 in the last um. Really, it feels like most of 2:17:09.160 --> 2:17:11.400 the growth happened the last five six years, Like there's 2:17:11.440 --> 2:17:16.000 been a real significant increase in Yeah. I feel like 2:17:16.040 --> 2:17:18.560 there's been like a wave. I feel like there's generations 2:17:18.560 --> 2:17:21.039 of gun two. There's like gen one, Gen two, Gen 2:17:21.200 --> 2:17:24.440 three in theres Russian back in the day and stuff 2:17:24.560 --> 2:17:27.240 totally Yeah, and so there's a whole thing there. There's 2:17:27.280 --> 2:17:30.160 there's generations of what was addressed in the conversation and 2:17:30.160 --> 2:17:32.959 the cultural significance as well as the gear impact. I 2:17:32.959 --> 2:17:36.720 think we've got different kind of generations of the yeah. 2:17:37.040 --> 2:17:39.600 And I think this stuff obviously when when aspects of 2:17:39.640 --> 2:17:41.760 gun YouTube go viral, it tends to be stuff that's 2:17:41.800 --> 2:17:45.600 like particularly problematic, But in my experience, most of it 2:17:45.640 --> 2:17:48.680 is just dudes shooting stuff to see what happens, or 2:17:48.760 --> 2:17:50.800 you know, trying out different guns and stuff like. It 2:17:50.879 --> 2:17:54.360 is mostly if you're someone who you know believes in 2:17:54.640 --> 2:17:57.560 the right to bear arms, it's mostly pretty much just 2:17:57.600 --> 2:18:02.199 like people drying out guns and stuff with guns. Yeah. Yeah, 2:18:02.200 --> 2:18:04.920 when things go viral, it's like my my experience with that, 2:18:04.920 --> 2:18:06.400 there's a number of reasons. A right, one is that 2:18:06.400 --> 2:18:10.040 it's particularly gross that someone does something or says something 2:18:10.080 --> 2:18:12.920 fucked up, somebody's out there dressed as a rotation a right, 2:18:12.959 --> 2:18:15.520 stuff like that. That kind that tends to push the buttons. 2:18:15.720 --> 2:18:17.720 But yeah, most of the time, the stuff that gets 2:18:17.760 --> 2:18:22.120 the largest volume of viewership are quite honestly more banal. 2:18:22.200 --> 2:18:26.960 It's things like a fifty caliber exploding or shooting a gallon, 2:18:27.160 --> 2:18:29.840 you know, fifty five gallon drum of gas. That kind 2:18:29.840 --> 2:18:32.360 of stuff. Is that that stuff appeals to people that 2:18:32.400 --> 2:18:34.360 aren't just gunned people, so they're like, oh, I want 2:18:34.400 --> 2:18:36.920 to see shoots fload, so let me click on it. Well, 2:18:36.920 --> 2:18:39.039 one of my favorite things is to look at videos 2:18:39.040 --> 2:18:42.680 of people destroying safe life fests one of my favorite 2:18:42.920 --> 2:18:45.560 ways to watch gun YouTube. But I guess this is 2:18:45.600 --> 2:18:47.560 probably what we'll probably talking about this as the episode 2:18:47.600 --> 2:18:49.879 goes on. But once you watch enough of those from 2:18:49.879 --> 2:18:52.119 like one channel, you'll you'll get to a video when 2:18:52.160 --> 2:18:55.400 they fantasize about like shooting Antifa or something. They're like, Okay, 2:18:55.520 --> 2:18:58.280 well yeah, that yeah, that's that's just the way it 2:18:58.320 --> 2:19:02.240 goes sometimes. And it is, you know, the thing that 2:19:02.360 --> 2:19:05.040 my first I guess the first time I became aware 2:19:05.080 --> 2:19:07.760 of like online gun culture UM was a site that's 2:19:07.760 --> 2:19:09.200 still really near and dear to my heart. I'm sure 2:19:09.200 --> 2:19:11.480 you're familiar with it, Carl the Box of Truth, And 2:19:11.520 --> 2:19:14.000 it was like, and I think it is like fifteen 2:19:14.080 --> 2:19:15.760 years ago or something like that is when I started 2:19:15.760 --> 2:19:18.039 reading their stuff, and it's it's just like some kind 2:19:18.080 --> 2:19:20.880 of bubbay dudes in Texas who will take different who 2:19:20.879 --> 2:19:23.199 will try out like, hey, there's a myth that UM 2:19:23.240 --> 2:19:26.160 this specific round in Korea got stopped by people who's 2:19:26.200 --> 2:19:29.000 were wearing multiple layers of like clothing in the cold. 2:19:29.400 --> 2:19:32.480 Can winter clothing stop this bullet? And they would they 2:19:32.480 --> 2:19:34.200 would you know, mock up the clothing on like a 2:19:34.200 --> 2:19:36.240 target and they would shoot it, or like, how many 2:19:36.240 --> 2:19:38.320 books does it take? Like if you have a full backpack, 2:19:38.360 --> 2:19:40.039 how many books would it take to stop a round 2:19:40.040 --> 2:19:42.520 of nine millimeter? If? I like, it's it's all very 2:19:42.600 --> 2:19:46.199 much like practical Hey, people you know say this works 2:19:46.240 --> 2:19:47.840 this way or this works that way. Well let's go 2:19:47.879 --> 2:19:49.840 out and shoot some stuff and test how it works. 2:19:49.840 --> 2:19:53.480 And um, I think was like it is, as you said, 2:19:53.480 --> 2:19:54.800 the kind of thing I think, even if you don't 2:19:54.800 --> 2:19:57.039 own guns you might find interesting just because like a 2:19:57.080 --> 2:19:58.840 lot of it is dealing with here's things you've seen 2:19:58.840 --> 2:20:03.360 in Hollywood, what ACTU really happens? Um? So I do 2:20:03.480 --> 2:20:07.200 think like fundamentally there's always going to be a place 2:20:07.360 --> 2:20:10.039 for that kind of content because it's it's not just 2:20:10.160 --> 2:20:12.320 like stuff that people who like guns are interested in. 2:20:12.400 --> 2:20:14.600 It's just stuff that has kind of objective value. You know, 2:20:14.640 --> 2:20:18.120 you're trying to expand what people's understanding of things. Yeah, 2:20:18.160 --> 2:20:20.360 I call that g whiz content. It's like g whiz 2:20:20.520 --> 2:20:23.240 what happens if right? And so on? In range. The 2:20:23.240 --> 2:20:25.760 closest equivalent to that, which are the videos that the 2:20:25.800 --> 2:20:29.640 most views are are somewhat now infamous mud tests. Um. 2:20:29.680 --> 2:20:31.600 And it started up six years ago and it was 2:20:31.680 --> 2:20:34.280 literally it was G whiz, let's go do this. And 2:20:34.480 --> 2:20:37.640 of course there's this long standing lore everywhere outside of 2:20:37.640 --> 2:20:39.680 the gun community and in it about the A K 2:20:39.879 --> 2:20:43.240 M being this undestruct indestructible unicorn you're right into combat 2:20:43.280 --> 2:20:45.400 that no matter what happens to it, it fires, and 2:20:45.400 --> 2:20:47.320 they are A fifteen being this fragile piece of ship. 2:20:47.800 --> 2:20:50.439 And in our mud test, which we've now done multiple 2:20:50.520 --> 2:20:53.039 of it will initially it was just G whiz. Over 2:20:53.120 --> 2:20:55.400 time and aggregate, it turned out to actually have really 2:20:55.440 --> 2:20:58.039 interesting data points and that the A k doesn't do 2:20:58.120 --> 2:21:00.520 well in mud and they are excels in mud, which 2:21:00.560 --> 2:21:02.879 is completely against the lore about Vietnam, which is a 2:21:02.879 --> 2:21:05.520 different problem. But that kind of thing extends beyond the 2:21:05.520 --> 2:21:07.879 gun community because people are like guns and mud. What 2:21:08.000 --> 2:21:11.080 happened is it's MythBusters kind of stuff. Yeah, and I think, 2:21:11.360 --> 2:21:14.560 but it's interesting how you can learn from it. Yeah, 2:21:14.600 --> 2:21:17.560 And I think one of the problems that is, uh 2:21:17.760 --> 2:21:20.440 we we could say like has is an issue on 2:21:20.440 --> 2:21:22.600 on gun YouTube. One of the things that has become 2:21:22.600 --> 2:21:25.920 an issue, and this isn't just within the gun culture, 2:21:25.959 --> 2:21:28.000 it's everywhere, is that like, if you're into that stuff 2:21:28.000 --> 2:21:29.440 and if you're if you're coming into it like I 2:21:29.440 --> 2:21:31.600 want to see people do this g with stuff, or 2:21:31.600 --> 2:21:33.440 I just want to see reviews of different guns because 2:21:33.520 --> 2:21:36.920 I might be buying one. Um, Google's algorithm is going 2:21:36.959 --> 2:21:38.520 to feed you a lot of stuff, and some of 2:21:38.560 --> 2:21:40.400 that stuff is going to be people who, yeah, are 2:21:40.400 --> 2:21:43.720 preparing to like shoot folks at protests, and our filming 2:21:43.800 --> 2:21:47.080 videos about that and stuff, and that it has this 2:21:47.640 --> 2:21:50.840 um it has this radicalizing effect on a lot of people. 2:21:50.840 --> 2:21:52.959 And it also has this kind of can have this 2:21:53.040 --> 2:21:56.480 kind of radicalizing effect on content where you know, most 2:21:56.520 --> 2:21:58.560 political stuff you see isn't kind of that over it, 2:21:58.640 --> 2:22:01.560 but it does if somebody has a video where they're 2:22:01.560 --> 2:22:04.400 being more explicitly political outside of you know, you know, 2:22:04.520 --> 2:22:06.840 arguing in favor of gun rights, but if they're getting 2:22:06.879 --> 2:22:09.360 kind of political and a broader since, and that does 2:22:09.440 --> 2:22:11.840 really well the way that content works. As other people 2:22:11.920 --> 2:22:13.480 might be like, oh, well, folks want me to do 2:22:13.600 --> 2:22:15.720 a political video, Folks want me to talk about I 2:22:15.720 --> 2:22:19.520 don't know, Nancy Pelosi or whatever. Um, And that that's 2:22:19.600 --> 2:22:22.520 you know, not just a problem with gun culture or 2:22:22.560 --> 2:22:25.800 gun YouTube, but it has increasingly become a thing and 2:22:26.000 --> 2:22:28.120 in the n r A kind of very famously. There's 2:22:28.160 --> 2:22:32.760 a good podcast on the how that organization has kind 2:22:32.760 --> 2:22:34.879 of gone from where it started to where it is 2:22:34.920 --> 2:22:37.000 that talks about like n r A TV. But they 2:22:37.080 --> 2:22:40.959 their YouTube channel had some pretty outrageous ship for a while, 2:22:41.000 --> 2:22:43.200 and I think it left an impact even though it 2:22:43.320 --> 2:22:45.640 failed in this eventually, well, the n r A is 2:22:45.680 --> 2:22:47.440 until we can get into that later. The NA has 2:22:47.520 --> 2:22:49.640 changed so much since its organs to what it is now. 2:22:49.640 --> 2:22:51.680 It's not even the people have found it. It It wouldn't 2:22:51.680 --> 2:22:54.880 recognize it, I don't think at all. But you're touching 2:22:54.920 --> 2:22:56.800 on a topic there that's also near and dear, and 2:22:56.800 --> 2:22:58.640 I'm not trying to promote Ranger. That's just work having 2:22:58.640 --> 2:23:02.680 a conversation. But years ago I decided to proactively demonetize. 2:23:02.680 --> 2:23:04.560 I turned off my AdSense and I take no money 2:23:04.879 --> 2:23:08.000 from any views, so it's not like advertising doesn't drive 2:23:08.040 --> 2:23:10.039 what I do. And I feel like the reason I 2:23:10.040 --> 2:23:11.880 did that was partially just fuck you YouTube. It was 2:23:11.920 --> 2:23:14.600 the hacker manifesto of you come watch my content, I 2:23:14.680 --> 2:23:17.160 cost you money versus make you money, which is kind 2:23:17.200 --> 2:23:20.480 of a statement on my part. But additionally, I do 2:23:20.640 --> 2:23:23.640 feel like whether it's firearms or any other content that 2:23:23.760 --> 2:23:27.440 is completely advertiser supported. There is a dangerous thing there 2:23:27.480 --> 2:23:30.160 in that you have to pursue the clicks like a 2:23:30.320 --> 2:23:32.760 heroin addict, and the clicks make you the money, and 2:23:32.800 --> 2:23:35.039 therefore you're gonna make the stuff that's gonna make the 2:23:35.040 --> 2:23:37.880 clicks because that's how you make your income. And even 2:23:37.920 --> 2:23:42.320 if you don't want it to do, it can affect you. Yeah, 2:23:42.440 --> 2:23:46.240 and I'm curious, like, how do you kind of how 2:23:46.280 --> 2:23:50.439 do you, um, how do you how do you approach 2:23:50.959 --> 2:23:54.680 sort of dealing in this space where it is so 2:23:54.720 --> 2:23:57.640 easy for things to become politicized? Like do you is 2:23:57.680 --> 2:23:59.160 that is that a kind of thing that you have 2:23:59.200 --> 2:24:02.959 to be conscious sort of picking your battles. I guess 2:24:03.320 --> 2:24:06.160 I'm just kind of interested in how you because you 2:24:06.160 --> 2:24:09.120 definitely have been more open about having kind of more 2:24:09.160 --> 2:24:11.560 on the left libertarian side of things politics than a 2:24:11.640 --> 2:24:13.920 lot of people talk about in that space. How do 2:24:14.000 --> 2:24:17.680 you decide kind of what is worth inserting and what 2:24:17.840 --> 2:24:19.760 is worth kind of just you know, no one needs 2:24:19.760 --> 2:24:23.200 to hear that within this context. Oh yeah, I don't 2:24:23.200 --> 2:24:25.120 think that that's an easy thing to answer, right, It's hard, 2:24:25.160 --> 2:24:30.000 Like there's a lot of landlines. But when um introspectively 2:24:30.080 --> 2:24:32.480 for me, the answer for me at least was, I'm 2:24:32.520 --> 2:24:35.960 just going to come to this content as my honest self, Like, 2:24:36.200 --> 2:24:38.120 if I'm just going to produce what I want to produce, 2:24:38.120 --> 2:24:41.039 it's and since I don't have to worry about advertising dollars, 2:24:41.080 --> 2:24:42.760 I'm just gonna make this ship I want to make. 2:24:43.280 --> 2:24:47.520 And as a result, I guess it's sometimes considered an 2:24:47.520 --> 2:24:49.720 alternative voice, but I don't think it really is. I 2:24:49.760 --> 2:24:52.800 think that the loud loud mouths have made it sound 2:24:52.800 --> 2:24:54.840 like there's only one voice in this community, but there isn't. 2:24:55.200 --> 2:24:58.520 And so by just being legitimate and honest and being me, 2:24:59.160 --> 2:25:01.680 there's turned out to be a lot of ground swell 2:25:01.760 --> 2:25:04.000 if you want to use grassroots type people out there 2:25:04.000 --> 2:25:07.520 that want to hear something that's not just evangelical American 2:25:07.560 --> 2:25:11.880 Taliban so. But but in terms of what where to where, 2:25:11.920 --> 2:25:14.680 what where to put your foot on? What landline, I 2:25:14.680 --> 2:25:16.840 guess I did. For me, my decision has been to 2:25:16.840 --> 2:25:19.640 do topics that have been intentionally ignored that shouldn't have been. 2:25:19.920 --> 2:25:22.359 Like I've done a bunch of videos about the confluence 2:25:22.400 --> 2:25:25.240 of civil rights and firearms ownership, which there's a lot 2:25:25.280 --> 2:25:27.560 of it, and it's it's really amazing how much there 2:25:27.640 --> 2:25:30.720 is and no one talks about it. Yeah, I mean 2:25:30.760 --> 2:25:32.360 we yeah, we We've chatted about that a little bit 2:25:32.400 --> 2:25:34.440 in some of our episodes. It was like nineteen nineteen 2:25:34.480 --> 2:25:36.760 when there were all those like race riots around the country, 2:25:36.879 --> 2:25:39.200 or even if you're looking at like the post construction period, 2:25:39.280 --> 2:25:42.840 there's a history both of like gun control being used 2:25:42.840 --> 2:25:46.240 for racist purposes, but also just of communities arming themselves, 2:25:46.280 --> 2:25:50.160 Black communities arming themselves. That is is woefully undertold, although 2:25:50.440 --> 2:25:54.279 it is people are starting to deal with it more thankfully. UM. 2:25:54.320 --> 2:25:56.280 I'm kind of interested in talking to you about sort 2:25:56.280 --> 2:26:00.200 of the culture jamming aspect of we have this huge 2:26:00.240 --> 2:26:03.160 gun culture. Aspects of it are very toxic and becoming 2:26:03.320 --> 2:26:08.120 politicized in a way that is um aggressive, Um, how 2:26:08.160 --> 2:26:11.120 do we how do we have a positive influence and 2:26:11.240 --> 2:26:14.959 kind of hopefully pull things back, because I do think 2:26:15.400 --> 2:26:17.800 within kind of the issue of gun rights, there's more 2:26:18.520 --> 2:26:22.240 actually more possibility for people to sort of come together 2:26:22.320 --> 2:26:25.800 and reaching a chord than there is on something like abortion. UM. 2:26:25.840 --> 2:26:28.720 And I think a lot of that conversation is going 2:26:28.760 --> 2:26:32.240 to start in spaces like the one you inhabit. Yeah, no, 2:26:32.480 --> 2:26:34.959 I yeah, I like what you say culture jamming, because 2:26:35.000 --> 2:26:37.320 another term I've heard is subversive. Well that's not the intent, 2:26:37.440 --> 2:26:39.920 but like you mentioned the Red Summer of nineteen nineteen, 2:26:40.160 --> 2:26:42.400 and yeah, I talked to when I talked to a 2:26:42.440 --> 2:26:45.800 lot of people that that are really hged historically interested 2:26:45.840 --> 2:26:48.080 in minded, and I was astonished how many people have 2:26:48.160 --> 2:26:50.280 not even heard of it. Never mind you only like 2:26:50.320 --> 2:26:53.160 the explicit realities of it. And so when it comes 2:26:53.160 --> 2:26:55.520 to the culture jamming thing, there's one video I did 2:26:55.560 --> 2:26:58.240 about or two of the events of Red Summer of 2:26:58.280 --> 2:27:00.920 nineteen nineteen, one of them here in Bisbee locally, and 2:27:01.440 --> 2:27:04.560 it's an interesting problem to someone who normally would be 2:27:04.600 --> 2:27:09.440 considered as a very standard issue firearms content creator. In 2:27:09.440 --> 2:27:12.480 that particular Red Summer nineteen nineteen episode, it turned into 2:27:12.480 --> 2:27:17.360 the local police attempting to disarm the tenth Cavalry soldiers 2:27:17.680 --> 2:27:22.160 who are off you know, military soldiers in bis beyond recreation. 2:27:22.480 --> 2:27:24.959 And so you've got this interesting cognitive dissonance. Do I 2:27:25.040 --> 2:27:27.680 support the cops that a lot of firearms people are 2:27:27.720 --> 2:27:31.120 like just blindly support, or do I support the military 2:27:31.120 --> 2:27:34.000 which a lot of farms people blindly support. When both 2:27:34.000 --> 2:27:36.959 of them converge and the and it's a racist agenda 2:27:37.000 --> 2:27:39.360 in it. That poses a question that I like to 2:27:39.440 --> 2:27:41.760 do with like this kind of content because it means 2:27:41.760 --> 2:27:44.000 that the viewer has to really, if they get through 2:27:44.000 --> 2:27:46.879 the video, have to introspectively go, Holy funk, which do 2:27:46.959 --> 2:27:49.160 I support or do I support either? Or is there 2:27:49.160 --> 2:27:51.720 a problem here I haven't been considering. I think asking 2:27:51.840 --> 2:27:54.960 questions like that really matters when you try to like 2:27:55.160 --> 2:27:58.160 start these conversations with people who are kind of in 2:27:58.200 --> 2:28:01.560 the same space but but not you know, I haven't 2:28:01.600 --> 2:28:04.400 considered talking about this stuff before or on what would 2:28:04.400 --> 2:28:09.080 traditionally be seen as kind of very opposed political um wing. 2:28:09.440 --> 2:28:11.680 How do you kind of start these conversations in a 2:28:11.720 --> 2:28:14.240 way that makes it most likely that you're gonna be 2:28:14.280 --> 2:28:16.959 able to have a positive dialogue that actually moves forward 2:28:17.000 --> 2:28:18.920 as opposed to kind of getting bogged down in the 2:28:19.520 --> 2:28:21.160 and the things that caused people to just kind of 2:28:21.240 --> 2:28:24.880 lock horns generally when you we start getting into these areas. Yeah, 2:28:25.000 --> 2:28:26.959 you know, I don't know, it's totally possible you're gonna 2:28:27.000 --> 2:28:29.520 have that problem no matter what you see that with 2:28:29.520 --> 2:28:32.640 your work. For surely when you take an honest approach 2:28:32.640 --> 2:28:35.240 to history and just be like, here's the facts. Um, 2:28:35.280 --> 2:28:37.480 there's gonna be people that are just gonna be completely 2:28:37.480 --> 2:28:40.320 resistant to that. They're not going to take it. But UM, 2:28:40.360 --> 2:28:42.280 I think the best way to do that is to 2:28:42.440 --> 2:28:44.480 just be that honest approach to it. Like one of 2:28:44.480 --> 2:28:46.840 the things that I think we do with firearms content 2:28:47.360 --> 2:28:50.680 gears cool tech is cool. Guns are neat, They're fun. 2:28:50.840 --> 2:28:53.160 I enjoy shooting with guns. I like the foard of it. 2:28:53.400 --> 2:28:56.440 I like going to competitions. But one of the things 2:28:56.440 --> 2:28:58.480 that gets left out of the conversation a lot is 2:28:58.760 --> 2:29:01.960 what are the implications of arms and the sociological economic 2:29:02.080 --> 2:29:04.000 environments that we live in. And I think that's one 2:29:04.040 --> 2:29:05.840 of the things that didn't get talked about. And so 2:29:06.240 --> 2:29:09.200 if we talk about it fairly and also tend to 2:29:10.160 --> 2:29:12.360 I think it's hard to do, but have people from 2:29:12.360 --> 2:29:15.040 all sides of this perspective, as long as they're not 2:29:15.959 --> 2:29:19.240 completely dangerous and toxic, being part of the conversation. We 2:29:19.240 --> 2:29:21.840 can have a better middle ground. That's the hard part. 2:29:21.920 --> 2:29:24.959 Like so being inclusive, ironically, even of views that you 2:29:24.959 --> 2:29:27.400 aren't necessarily your own, as long as the person you're 2:29:27.440 --> 2:29:31.400 dealing with isn't my line is if you're actively supporting 2:29:31.680 --> 2:29:35.440 bigotry or the harm of other people, there's a no go, 2:29:35.560 --> 2:29:38.000 We're done. But if we have different views but we 2:29:38.080 --> 2:29:40.480 realize that that's not the intent, then then we should 2:29:40.520 --> 2:29:43.200 have a conversation. I think that that's a big difference now. 2:29:43.360 --> 2:29:45.000 I think one of the areas in which this can 2:29:45.040 --> 2:29:47.440 get murkiest is when you are talking to people and 2:29:47.440 --> 2:29:50.720 I've had a few of these conversations who are convinced 2:29:50.760 --> 2:29:54.160 that there is uh that they're kind of on the 2:29:54.160 --> 2:29:58.039 precipice of of a violent conflict sparked by someone coming 2:29:58.040 --> 2:30:00.520 to take their guns right that, and it in you know, 2:30:00.560 --> 2:30:03.240 there's the version of this that is like, I'm worried 2:30:03.280 --> 2:30:04.760 that the a t F is going to do some 2:30:04.800 --> 2:30:06.240 fuckory in a bunch of my ship is going to 2:30:06.240 --> 2:30:08.039 be illegal, which is pretty reasonable. And then there's the 2:30:08.360 --> 2:30:10.480 I'm worried Antifa's going to come to my small town 2:30:10.560 --> 2:30:12.880 and and and take my you know, guns or do 2:30:12.920 --> 2:30:15.959 whatever like Because that there are often people in that 2:30:16.040 --> 2:30:21.840 who are just kind of um tragically misinformed and radicalized 2:30:21.879 --> 2:30:25.640 in a way that they're not so much eager to 2:30:25.800 --> 2:30:28.840 harm people as they are just like broken and frightened 2:30:28.879 --> 2:30:31.840 because of the things that have been fed to them. Um, 2:30:31.879 --> 2:30:34.000 do you have any kind of best practices when it 2:30:34.040 --> 2:30:37.400 comes to sort of approaching those conversations and trying to 2:30:37.440 --> 2:30:40.840 improve the information those people are getting. I guess for 2:30:40.879 --> 2:30:42.600 me in that regardless of what I when I see 2:30:42.640 --> 2:30:44.120 people like that, and I think all of us have 2:30:44.240 --> 2:30:46.400 those people in our world, whether it's your your aunt 2:30:46.480 --> 2:30:48.280 or your uncle or a friend, right, Like we've seen 2:30:48.320 --> 2:30:50.680 that over the last couple of years for sure. Um, 2:30:50.800 --> 2:30:52.640 I think the best thing you can do there for 2:30:52.720 --> 2:30:54.920 me again, I'm just talking to my approach and is 2:30:55.000 --> 2:30:58.080 a break the echo chamber if you can? And so 2:30:58.280 --> 2:31:00.160 the echo chamber of the problem when we suck from 2:31:00.160 --> 2:31:03.400 the fire hose of only one source like NonStop. Yeah, 2:31:03.480 --> 2:31:05.240 that's gonna be dangerous. That's the kind of stuff that 2:31:05.280 --> 2:31:06.840 pollutes your mind to the point where you can't think 2:31:06.840 --> 2:31:10.480 outside of that box. So like being more inclusive and 2:31:10.760 --> 2:31:13.560 that word is kind of a trigger word, a catchphrase, 2:31:13.600 --> 2:31:16.480 but being legitimately more inclusive and presenting a lot of 2:31:16.520 --> 2:31:20.039 different diversity that really is part of the firearms community. 2:31:20.360 --> 2:31:23.480 Can I can in some circumstances break the echo chamber? 2:31:23.760 --> 2:31:25.960 Like I'm really happy with this one. Project on the 2:31:26.000 --> 2:31:29.160 channel where I'm working with the net Evans about specifically 2:31:29.680 --> 2:31:32.840 a female or woman's approach to self defense with firearms, 2:31:33.040 --> 2:31:35.000 and you don't really see that. You'll see like channels 2:31:35.000 --> 2:31:37.480 that are only for women, and you'll see like all 2:31:37.480 --> 2:31:40.480 the majority of gun channels that are only for gun 2:31:40.520 --> 2:31:43.760 fascinated dudes. But like throwing that into the mix, there's 2:31:43.800 --> 2:31:45.680 gonna be some subset of people that will clicking and 2:31:45.720 --> 2:31:47.840 watch it out of that g whiz lewel and that 2:31:47.879 --> 2:31:50.240 kind of stuff can break a paradigm in terms of well, 2:31:50.280 --> 2:31:51.880 I never thought of that. I never looked at it 2:31:51.920 --> 2:31:53.960 from that perspective, And that's at least that's what I 2:31:54.000 --> 2:31:56.760 think is the great answer is do your best to 2:31:56.840 --> 2:32:01.800 make sure you're approachable and try to break the echo chamber. Yeah, 2:32:01.959 --> 2:32:03.760 that makes complete Yeah, I mean that makes a lot 2:32:03.800 --> 2:32:07.400 of sense. Um. I think on the other side of 2:32:07.440 --> 2:32:09.440 this is also worth talking about because we've kind of 2:32:09.440 --> 2:32:11.600 been focused on how do you break the echo chamber, 2:32:11.640 --> 2:32:13.320 how do you get people who are you know, in 2:32:13.360 --> 2:32:17.039 the gun culture on the right to be more open minded. 2:32:17.320 --> 2:32:19.040 The other side of this is you have a lot 2:32:19.040 --> 2:32:21.640 of people who are kind of liberals um or on 2:32:21.680 --> 2:32:26.080 the left who have a really reflexively negative opinion to 2:32:26.160 --> 2:32:30.120 the reaction to the very idea of gun ownership or 2:32:30.120 --> 2:32:32.800 gun rights and have these you know, you will generally 2:32:32.800 --> 2:32:35.640 see there's there's a mix of people who can come 2:32:35.640 --> 2:32:37.640 to it from a very reasonable and argued point in 2:32:37.640 --> 2:32:39.160 a mix of people who are just going to, like 2:32:39.560 --> 2:32:40.880 in the same way that folks on the right to 2:32:41.040 --> 2:32:44.440 throw out a handful of quotes that they've seen on memes, um, 2:32:44.480 --> 2:32:46.760 that they can use to kind of, you know, shut 2:32:46.760 --> 2:32:48.920 down debate. How do you do you have a lot 2:32:49.000 --> 2:32:51.039 of those conversations where you're kind of trying to make 2:32:51.040 --> 2:32:53.039 people at least more open to because this is something 2:32:53.040 --> 2:32:54.400 my work is dealt with a lot. Is kind of 2:32:54.400 --> 2:32:56.520 trying to sit down to Like, I get why you 2:32:56.520 --> 2:32:59.600 don't think these things should be legal. Um, obviously I 2:32:59.800 --> 2:33:02.440 I see the same mass shooting news that you do. 2:33:02.720 --> 2:33:05.280 There's a problem, a deep problem with guns in this country. 2:33:05.360 --> 2:33:07.920 I don't deny that, But like, let's also talk about 2:33:08.440 --> 2:33:11.360 the idea that the state should have an absolute monopoly 2:33:11.440 --> 2:33:13.720 on on the ability to do violence. Let's talk about 2:33:14.080 --> 2:33:16.680 the ability of marginalized groups to defend themselves. Let's talk 2:33:16.680 --> 2:33:18.560 about the history of gun control and how it's like 2:33:19.080 --> 2:33:21.480 it is it is. There's a lot of conversations that 2:33:21.600 --> 2:33:24.880 kind of get wrapped up in that. Um, I'm wondering, 2:33:25.160 --> 2:33:27.160 do you have thoughts in terms of like how to 2:33:27.240 --> 2:33:30.360 kind of broach those and progressive avenues to go down 2:33:30.440 --> 2:33:32.959 to when you're having that side of the conversation. You know, 2:33:33.000 --> 2:33:35.080 it's totally interesting. I think I feel like I don't. 2:33:35.200 --> 2:33:36.920 I'm curious what you think about this from your work 2:33:36.959 --> 2:33:40.400 as well. I feel like over the last for good reasons, 2:33:40.680 --> 2:33:42.920 over the last couple of years, more than a couple 2:33:42.920 --> 2:33:45.480 of years, I think I've seen, maybe it's just my 2:33:45.560 --> 2:33:48.280 own echo chamber, I've seen a lot of people on 2:33:48.520 --> 2:33:51.120 that side of the political spectrum coming more and more 2:33:51.200 --> 2:33:54.200 around too being pro gun. Yeah. I mean then the 2:33:54.240 --> 2:33:57.560 statistics back that up. Supportive in central in the United 2:33:57.600 --> 2:33:59.640 States is the lowest it's been in quite a while. 2:34:00.000 --> 2:34:01.920 Into that like if there's that joke on that side 2:34:01.920 --> 2:34:03.720 of the political fence, but you go far enough left 2:34:03.720 --> 2:34:06.240 to get your guns back right, um so Um, But 2:34:06.320 --> 2:34:07.959 I think there's been a real wake up call for 2:34:08.000 --> 2:34:10.360 a lot of people that used to be very much 2:34:10.440 --> 2:34:13.120 vehemently against the idea, with some of the stuff they 2:34:13.120 --> 2:34:17.480 saw and went, whoa, Um, this isn't These aren't going away. 2:34:17.920 --> 2:34:19.600 And if you're reasonable, if you're willing to have a 2:34:19.720 --> 2:34:22.560 rational thought about, at least in this country, the reality 2:34:22.560 --> 2:34:24.680 of firearms ownership, whether you like it or not, it's 2:34:24.720 --> 2:34:26.920 not debatable. This is real. It's what it is. They're 2:34:26.959 --> 2:34:29.280 not like they could ban everything tomorrow and there's gonna 2:34:29.280 --> 2:34:32.320 be air fifteens in this country for the next hundred years. Um, 2:34:32.400 --> 2:34:35.840 so that ain't gonna change. So with that realization, maybe 2:34:35.840 --> 2:34:38.160 the maybe the better idea, which I think is with 2:34:38.200 --> 2:34:40.920 all technology, is instead of being afraid of it, is 2:34:40.959 --> 2:34:43.240 to actually learn about it and understand it. Whether you 2:34:43.280 --> 2:34:46.360 want it or not. You but like learning and understanding 2:34:46.360 --> 2:34:48.640 it is at least a step further forward than just 2:34:48.800 --> 2:34:52.400 complete abject fear. Yeah. That that is often kind of 2:34:52.400 --> 2:34:54.879 where I start the conversation with just like we have 2:34:55.000 --> 2:34:57.199 to deal with the reality as it is on the ground, 2:34:57.200 --> 2:35:00.320 which is that there's million firearms and I have at 2:35:00.360 --> 2:35:02.240 hands here, which is not all that far from half 2:35:02.240 --> 2:35:05.120 of all of the guns in the world. Um So 2:35:05.200 --> 2:35:07.720 any any sort of like plan you have, it's the 2:35:07.800 --> 2:35:09.520 kind of like one of the things that often comes 2:35:09.560 --> 2:35:12.200 up in those conversations is Australia and people they were like, 2:35:12.240 --> 2:35:14.480 well they were able to do it after Now Port 2:35:14.600 --> 2:35:17.600 Arthur was Scotland. Um, I forget the name of the massacre, 2:35:17.840 --> 2:35:20.400 but there was a massacre in in in in Australia 2:35:20.480 --> 2:35:25.560 that they banned most kinds of firearms after and confiscated them, 2:35:25.800 --> 2:35:27.280 and it gets brought up a lot were like, well, 2:35:27.320 --> 2:35:29.000 they did this in the short frame of time, and 2:35:29.000 --> 2:35:31.800 there was this this impact on gun violence deaths. Why 2:35:31.840 --> 2:35:34.280 couldn't we do it? And the reason is that they 2:35:34.280 --> 2:35:36.560 had to confiscate a total of two hundred thousand arms 2:35:36.600 --> 2:35:38.600 and there's four hundred million guns in private hands in 2:35:38.640 --> 2:35:43.640 the United States. Um, it's it's a different scale of problem. 2:35:43.720 --> 2:35:45.920 And that that's before we get into sort of illegal 2:35:45.959 --> 2:35:49.240 barriers because Australia didn't have a Second Amendment. Obviously, like 2:35:49.560 --> 2:35:51.880 whether or not you like it, firearms have a level 2:35:51.879 --> 2:35:54.360 of protection that is equivalent to the protection free speech 2:35:54.440 --> 2:35:57.160 enjoys in this country. And you can't just pretend that's 2:35:57.200 --> 2:36:02.280 not the case. There's a tremendous body of jurisprudence around it. Yeah, no, totally, 2:36:02.360 --> 2:36:03.960 and like so that that's that's part of it is 2:36:04.000 --> 2:36:06.279 the reality there Australia and here is a completely different 2:36:06.480 --> 2:36:08.800 beast as well as culturally, like the people that were 2:36:08.800 --> 2:36:10.520 into guns there, and I don't mean to offend any 2:36:10.520 --> 2:36:13.600 Australians listening, but it wasn't like here, like in a 2:36:13.600 --> 2:36:17.160 place of Arizona. At places like Arizona, guns are just 2:36:18.400 --> 2:36:21.440 if you're in Arizona, and they're just intrinsically part of life, 2:36:21.720 --> 2:36:24.200 whether like they're just constant, they're everywhere you go to, 2:36:24.320 --> 2:36:26.680 like you see them open care, not always do she 2:36:26.840 --> 2:36:29.480 open care either. Sometimes it's like reasonable open care. Sometimes 2:36:29.520 --> 2:36:31.959 you see the other side of it. But they're just everywhere. 2:36:31.959 --> 2:36:33.400 It's just part of the deal. And it's like a 2:36:33.440 --> 2:36:34.920 lot of that in a lot of the country. And 2:36:34.959 --> 2:36:39.120 so um I actually think that that fear based ignorance 2:36:39.160 --> 2:36:42.120 of them is more dangerous because then we don't teach 2:36:42.160 --> 2:36:43.680 people what to do around them or how to be 2:36:43.720 --> 2:36:46.880 safe around them, kind of like abstinence, Like education and 2:36:46.920 --> 2:36:49.680 school teach people not to have sen that's fucking dumb, 2:36:49.840 --> 2:36:52.640 that ain't gonna work, and guns exist in this country. 2:36:52.680 --> 2:36:54.640 Does just be afraid of them that don't work either, 2:36:55.080 --> 2:36:58.760 So in the regard, I think that the reality is 2:36:58.800 --> 2:37:02.000 it's much better to to approach this. What I think. 2:37:02.040 --> 2:37:03.480 I guess the way I try to deal with that 2:37:03.600 --> 2:37:07.400 is if you don't fetishize them, people that are more 2:37:07.440 --> 2:37:10.160 afraid of them are less likely to just click away. 2:37:10.480 --> 2:37:12.560 If you talk about them like this is a thing, 2:37:12.920 --> 2:37:15.560 here's what they are. They're not a totem against evil. 2:37:15.600 --> 2:37:18.920 They're just a tool. And here's a historical story or 2:37:19.000 --> 2:37:22.520 narrative or sociological impact of this that's not fetishizing it 2:37:22.560 --> 2:37:25.600 as some religious item. I think that that helps break 2:37:25.600 --> 2:37:28.280 that barrier a little bit. And I think that that 2:37:28.320 --> 2:37:30.120 does bring me to something I think about a lot, 2:37:30.240 --> 2:37:33.320 which is the how you're in and actually has I 2:37:33.320 --> 2:37:35.440 think gotten a bit better than it was prior to 2:37:35.480 --> 2:37:37.879 Sandy Hook, but the very sorry state in a lot 2:37:37.879 --> 2:37:41.959 of cases of advertising of gear and guns. Um. I 2:37:41.959 --> 2:37:44.280 think the most famous example was a I believe it 2:37:44.280 --> 2:37:47.160 was a Bushmaster ad that got pulled after Sandy Hook 2:37:47.240 --> 2:37:49.240 that was like an a R fifteen that came with 2:37:49.280 --> 2:37:51.760 a man card that you would get like with your gun, 2:37:52.400 --> 2:37:54.600 Get your card back. I think it's get your Man 2:37:54.600 --> 2:37:57.039 card back. Your man card has been reissued because you 2:37:57.040 --> 2:38:00.720 have this gun here and that I I you know, 2:38:00.840 --> 2:38:03.800 I've seen a lot of different gun cultures because it's actually, 2:38:03.879 --> 2:38:06.040 like we've just talked about how unique u s gun 2:38:06.080 --> 2:38:09.280 culture is, but a lot of people actually own firearms 2:38:09.320 --> 2:38:11.160 around the world. There's a lot of even like in Europe, 2:38:11.160 --> 2:38:14.240 like France has a very significant gun culture, UM, and 2:38:14.280 --> 2:38:16.520 in Germany you'd be surprised, like people can own a 2:38:16.560 --> 2:38:18.000 lot of the same weapons you can here. There's a 2:38:18.000 --> 2:38:20.279 lot more hoops to jump through to to get access 2:38:20.360 --> 2:38:23.480 to them. Um, But there's still like there's gun cultures 2:38:23.480 --> 2:38:27.200 all around, and especially places like Iraq and Syria. It 2:38:27.280 --> 2:38:29.720 was really going to um when I saw kind of 2:38:29.760 --> 2:38:32.800 the gun culture that I most wanted to put some 2:38:32.879 --> 2:38:35.560 things over to hear from there. It was in northeast 2:38:35.640 --> 2:38:39.800 Syria in Rojava, where like damn near every not every individual, 2:38:39.800 --> 2:38:41.879 but every like family had an a k because in 2:38:41.959 --> 2:38:44.760 part there was this understanding that you have a duty 2:38:44.800 --> 2:38:47.240 from time to time to like patrol and watch your 2:38:47.240 --> 2:38:49.320 neighborhood and not in sort of this like I'm gonna 2:38:49.400 --> 2:38:52.320 set up a checkpoint for Antifa, but in I like, hey, 2:38:52.360 --> 2:38:54.840 isis just carried out a big attack. Let's let's get 2:38:54.920 --> 2:38:57.520 some folks out into the streets to like watch our neighborhoods, 2:38:57.520 --> 2:38:59.360 because that's just the reality of the world, and we 2:38:59.400 --> 2:39:01.640 don't we don't do we don't just have like a 2:39:01.640 --> 2:39:05.240 group of militarized police rolling around every neighborhood. Like, we 2:39:05.320 --> 2:39:09.160 also are responsible for protecting our communities, and so we 2:39:09.240 --> 2:39:11.640 train with weapons. And there was a lot of conversations 2:39:11.680 --> 2:39:14.720 I had with women about like, well, the fact that 2:39:14.800 --> 2:39:16.520 I have this and know how to use it now 2:39:16.600 --> 2:39:18.800 means that things can't be done to me that were 2:39:18.840 --> 2:39:21.240 before because I have an a K forty seven, and 2:39:21.280 --> 2:39:25.199 that means something I would like to port the kind 2:39:25.200 --> 2:39:27.640 of like what you were talking about, not just seeing 2:39:27.720 --> 2:39:29.640 it as a tool, but seeing it as a tool 2:39:29.680 --> 2:39:33.800 with societal responsibilities. You don't just have a gun so 2:39:33.840 --> 2:39:35.920 you can hold up in your house in the zombie apocalypse. 2:39:35.920 --> 2:39:38.640 You have a gun because you're part of a community 2:39:39.120 --> 2:39:42.120 and because there's there's some value that we see in 2:39:42.440 --> 2:39:47.200 members of the community being armed and not just the state. Yeah, no, totally. 2:39:47.280 --> 2:39:48.720 So I mean that goes that kind of goes way 2:39:48.720 --> 2:39:51.800 back to the old like now sort of silly sounding thing, 2:39:51.879 --> 2:39:54.320 but like God made man called me them equal, right, 2:39:54.360 --> 2:39:57.560 so before that, like if you were a frail human being, 2:39:57.720 --> 2:40:01.000 for whatever reasons. Um, you really a sort of defenseless, 2:40:01.080 --> 2:40:03.879 especially in the places like the frontier, but skill at 2:40:04.000 --> 2:40:07.879 arms could change that. And um, and that it puts 2:40:08.000 --> 2:40:12.240 it can put a more balanced power infrastructure in place. UM. 2:40:12.240 --> 2:40:13.440 Not that I want to live in a world, but 2:40:13.560 --> 2:40:16.680 we're always like at this point of mutually assured destruction. 2:40:17.160 --> 2:40:19.840 But it is much better to have more power balanced 2:40:19.840 --> 2:40:24.959 than power imbalance. And firearms absolutely provide that in trained, responsible, 2:40:25.120 --> 2:40:28.160 educated hands. UM. And that's what I think the story 2:40:28.200 --> 2:40:30.480 should be, right, that's the emphasis. Like when when the 2:40:30.480 --> 2:40:32.640 whole thing happened went down in Iraq like you're describing, 2:40:32.640 --> 2:40:34.760 I think it was ironic. One of the things that 2:40:34.920 --> 2:40:36.920 the US military did was allowed every home to have 2:40:36.959 --> 2:40:39.160 an AK, like because you get to keep one gun 2:40:39.200 --> 2:40:41.240 and it's one of these and uh. And you talked 2:40:41.240 --> 2:40:44.640 about gun ownership worldwide like, Um, once you've jumped through 2:40:44.680 --> 2:40:47.200 some of the hurdles in some of these countries, it's 2:40:47.200 --> 2:40:50.040 actually easier to own certain things than you can like 2:40:50.040 --> 2:40:54.080 like for example, Yeah, like a machine gun in the 2:40:54.160 --> 2:40:57.240 US is highly regulated. It's four and pretty difficult and 2:40:57.320 --> 2:41:00.520 highly expensive because of a specially closed market. But like 2:41:01.160 --> 2:41:02.680 bloke on the range, one of the guys I work 2:41:02.720 --> 2:41:05.440 with on on on YouTube, once he gets his permit, 2:41:05.520 --> 2:41:06.960 like he's like, I'm just gonna go buy a fully 2:41:07.000 --> 2:41:09.520 automatic stent, and he just does. And it's not at 2:41:09.520 --> 2:41:11.840 an exorbitant price like it would be in the United States, 2:41:11.879 --> 2:41:14.600 So it's not apples to apples. Like these controls, whether 2:41:14.640 --> 2:41:16.119 we like them or not, some of them are actually 2:41:16.120 --> 2:41:18.920 more liberal than we have in the United States. Yeah, 2:41:18.920 --> 2:41:21.080 and I think a good example of that, and an 2:41:21.080 --> 2:41:22.920 example of where like a lot of folks who might 2:41:23.000 --> 2:41:26.960 kind of reflexively think this is insane, but like it's silencers, 2:41:27.040 --> 2:41:30.160 you know, suppressors being the more accurate term, but silencer 2:41:30.200 --> 2:41:31.400 is what you call and it's the thing you see 2:41:31.440 --> 2:41:32.959 James Bond screw on the end of his gun to 2:41:32.959 --> 2:41:37.680 make it quiet um. And there's the like this attitude 2:41:37.680 --> 2:41:40.400 that they should be heavily restricted because there's this misnomer 2:41:40.480 --> 2:41:43.240 that for the most part, they make things sound like 2:41:43.280 --> 2:41:45.039 stuff in James Bond. Now, there are some ways to 2:41:45.080 --> 2:41:49.280 get a firearm that is incredibly quiet um, particularly using 2:41:49.320 --> 2:41:51.840 like a smaller round and sub sonic ammunition. There are 2:41:51.840 --> 2:41:55.160 some very some weapons you can effectively make quiet enough 2:41:55.160 --> 2:41:57.200 that people won't notice it. But when you're putting a 2:41:57.240 --> 2:41:59.760 silencer on an a R fifteen, it is not quiet. 2:42:00.000 --> 2:42:02.800 No one will miss it firing. But what it won't 2:42:02.840 --> 2:42:04.760 do if you have to defend yourself in your home 2:42:05.080 --> 2:42:08.200 is shatter your ear drums forever, right, Or this is 2:42:08.240 --> 2:42:11.560 honestly the bigger case for suppressors. If you are hunting 2:42:11.600 --> 2:42:13.520 with an animal, as a lot of people do with 2:42:13.560 --> 2:42:16.440 your dogs, you can have a suppressor on your shotgun 2:42:16.440 --> 2:42:18.120 as your bird hunting or whatever, and you will not 2:42:18.200 --> 2:42:21.440 destroy that dog's ears. Um, you know, it's the same 2:42:21.440 --> 2:42:23.400 thing like I'm hunting for deer. You know, it's it's 2:42:23.480 --> 2:42:27.400 it's easier. Um, it's like less dangerous for you potentially, 2:42:27.440 --> 2:42:29.880 Like I. One thing you know is if you've spent 2:42:29.920 --> 2:42:32.120 a lot of time around hunting dogs, they don't have 2:42:32.200 --> 2:42:34.960 good hearing by the time they get older because they're hunting. 2:42:36.840 --> 2:42:39.240 You know. It's funny suppressors, like everything that's that's more 2:42:39.320 --> 2:42:42.600 controlled has got a allure of magic around it, right, Like, oh, 2:42:42.680 --> 2:42:45.240 a suppressor, a silencer or or for that matter, of 2:42:45.320 --> 2:42:47.680 machine gun, and like therefore it is the forbidden fruit, 2:42:47.879 --> 2:42:49.680 and everyone wants it more than they ever would have. 2:42:50.000 --> 2:42:52.760 Once you own I have one transferable machine guns with 2:42:52.840 --> 2:42:55.080 tax stamped the whole nine yards, and I shoot it 2:42:55.120 --> 2:42:56.760 like once a year, because you shoot it and then 2:42:56.760 --> 2:43:00.280 you're like, wow, that was expensive and fifty bucks and 2:43:00.400 --> 2:43:02.280 it's like, oh we that was fun, and then you 2:43:02.320 --> 2:43:04.160 put it away. And the truth is the sum automatic 2:43:04.160 --> 2:43:07.720 stuff is far more interesting and actually generally more effective. 2:43:08.000 --> 2:43:10.160 What's you use full auto fire? It's got very limited 2:43:10.280 --> 2:43:12.960 use um fully there there, I mean there is like, 2:43:13.000 --> 2:43:15.640 if we again are being complete, there's one mass shooting 2:43:15.680 --> 2:43:19.000 I can think of where a fully automatic weapon made 2:43:19.040 --> 2:43:21.680 the shooter more dangerous and it was the Las Vegas 2:43:21.680 --> 2:43:25.640 shooting because he was in a set fixed position UM. 2:43:25.680 --> 2:43:28.080 He was hold up UM and he had he was 2:43:28.200 --> 2:43:30.880 not like moving and standing. He was like braced while 2:43:30.959 --> 2:43:34.240 firing into a crowd from a building. As a general rule, 2:43:34.240 --> 2:43:36.720 if you're talking about like what's someone going to be 2:43:36.760 --> 2:43:39.560 more dangerous with, if they're somebody who decides to shoot 2:43:39.600 --> 2:43:42.360 up something, it's a semi automatic weapon. Because an automatic 2:43:42.360 --> 2:43:45.600 weapon number one going to jam more often requires a 2:43:45.600 --> 2:43:48.440 bit more understanding and know how on behalf of the user, 2:43:48.480 --> 2:43:50.280 and also is a lot harder to hit with. And 2:43:50.280 --> 2:43:52.560 we'll run out of ammunition very quickly as opposed to 2:43:52.600 --> 2:43:55.120 it and a semi automatic a R fifteen. The reason 2:43:55.160 --> 2:43:57.520 they are so often used in mass shootings is it's 2:43:57.600 --> 2:43:59.480 kind of the best weapon to use for that. If 2:43:59.480 --> 2:44:03.840 that's it's all so prolistic, right, there's like or cordwood 2:44:03.840 --> 2:44:06.320 in this country. You can like, they're literally everywhere. Um, 2:44:06.720 --> 2:44:08.400 the Las Vega shooter, though I don't know that he 2:44:08.400 --> 2:44:11.080 had actually any truly select fire guns, weren't they. Yeah, 2:44:11.320 --> 2:44:13.320 he was using a bump stock. I think it's close 2:44:13.440 --> 2:44:15.920 enough to Yeah. Well, no, it's a good analog. But 2:44:15.959 --> 2:44:17.920 it is interesting to note and that guy. What's interesting 2:44:17.920 --> 2:44:20.640 about that guy's um Well, of course his act was 2:44:20.720 --> 2:44:23.760 horrific and evil obvious, but he used a bunch of 2:44:23.840 --> 2:44:26.879 air fifteens with like shitty bump stocks, and he had 2:44:26.920 --> 2:44:30.360 planned something like this for years apparently, Yeah, Tanner right 2:44:30.440 --> 2:44:33.640 in the set up too, which is yeah, no one knows, 2:44:33.680 --> 2:44:35.600 I mean as we know, no one currently. I don't 2:44:35.640 --> 2:44:37.440 know anyone knows what his motivation was, at least it 2:44:37.440 --> 2:44:40.480 hasn't been released. But he had been planning something like 2:44:40.520 --> 2:44:43.520 this for a very long time. And what's ironic about 2:44:43.520 --> 2:44:45.040 that is that if he had bided his time he 2:44:45.080 --> 2:44:48.440 could have actually had a real select fire like belt 2:44:48.440 --> 2:44:51.440 fed machine gun. He just did a millionaire. Yeah he 2:44:51.480 --> 2:44:54.520 could have done that, and uh, um, this could but 2:44:54.600 --> 2:44:57.600 he just went with this bump stocks kind of garbage, 2:44:57.840 --> 2:45:00.800 which is weird. Um. That's a whole other topic, but 2:45:00.879 --> 2:45:03.360 it is and it it is like that is one 2:45:03.400 --> 2:45:05.000 of those cases when you talk to people in the 2:45:05.160 --> 2:45:09.480 right where it's like, after that shooting, Um, Donald Trump 2:45:09.480 --> 2:45:13.119 and his administration banned bump stocks. Um, which is more 2:45:13.120 --> 2:45:14.879 gun control than we got out of eight years of 2:45:14.879 --> 2:45:17.879 Obama's Like you know, oh boy, you point that out, 2:45:17.879 --> 2:45:22.160 at least on the center. In fact, um, Uh, there's 2:45:22.200 --> 2:45:24.879 always this narrative that you know, this political party will 2:45:24.920 --> 2:45:27.400 take your guns and this polaritically party waved. But the 2:45:27.440 --> 2:45:30.920 truth is, statistically and historically speaking, both tend to err 2:45:30.959 --> 2:45:33.560 on the side of trying to add more restrictions over time, 2:45:33.800 --> 2:45:36.320 Like if you do it over time, like Obama didn't. 2:45:36.320 --> 2:45:37.960 In fact of balla open things up. I think he 2:45:38.000 --> 2:45:42.840 liberalized h concealed carry of pistol or firearms in national parks. 2:45:43.320 --> 2:45:46.160 Actually he actually made guns a little easier to deal with. Um. 2:45:46.200 --> 2:45:51.119 But then via essentially executive order edict you've got Trump 2:45:51.160 --> 2:45:53.920 banning bump stocks, which, whether you like bump stocks or not, 2:45:54.000 --> 2:45:56.560 I think the way that went down is questionable legally speaking, 2:45:56.560 --> 2:46:00.160 but that's another topic. And and obviously bump stocks we're 2:46:00.200 --> 2:46:04.760 also somewhat questionable. They were speaking right right, totally totally, 2:46:04.800 --> 2:46:07.360 But but that's that's an interesting precedent with what he 2:46:07.400 --> 2:46:11.280 did was just like fiat edict um. But that that said, 2:46:11.400 --> 2:46:15.840 like historically, over time, there's always been more restrictions, not less, 2:46:15.840 --> 2:46:18.039 from both sides. And when you point that out, the 2:46:18.080 --> 2:46:20.119 people that just kind of drink the kool aid from 2:46:20.120 --> 2:46:21.720 one side or the other, I want to just re 2:46:21.720 --> 2:46:24.440 immediately knee jerk on you. And you're like, no, this 2:46:24.520 --> 2:46:27.400 is weird. This is coming from all directions really, Yeah, 2:46:27.440 --> 2:46:29.240 and I think it is. It is a big part 2:46:29.240 --> 2:46:31.600 of it is just that, like as a general rule, 2:46:31.680 --> 2:46:34.360 people who are rich and powerful do not want poor 2:46:34.400 --> 2:46:37.600 people to be armed. It doesn't tend to work out 2:46:37.600 --> 2:46:39.840 in their favor. The only time they want poor people 2:46:39.959 --> 2:46:41.440 armed is when they send them to a war they 2:46:41.480 --> 2:46:45.920 decided to have. Yeah, obviously the history of gun controls 2:46:45.920 --> 2:46:49.600 would have lay tied to racism and the Black Panthers 2:46:49.840 --> 2:46:52.800 and a little stuff around California's gun laws being started 2:46:52.800 --> 2:46:56.160 to curb black people from from owning fire arms, and 2:46:56.240 --> 2:46:58.480 so it would be we would be could argue in 2:46:58.520 --> 2:47:01.480 some ways that Reagan had a big role in inventing 2:47:01.640 --> 2:47:04.200 our modern concepts of like what gun control means and 2:47:04.240 --> 2:47:06.760 what kind of gun control laws like liberal states tend 2:47:06.760 --> 2:47:09.480 to go after on open carrying bands, on you know, 2:47:09.560 --> 2:47:12.280 concealed carrying of arms, that kind of stuff. Yeah, it's 2:47:12.320 --> 2:47:15.560 deeper than this, and there's always nuance to really hard right, 2:47:15.600 --> 2:47:18.520 but like, um, like California, which is kind of one 2:47:18.520 --> 2:47:21.520 of the flagship states of gun control. UM, and I 2:47:21.560 --> 2:47:24.680 think that their methods are bizarre to me and almost 2:47:25.160 --> 2:47:29.480 on not understandable. But like you talk about Reagan, pretty 2:47:29.560 --> 2:47:31.280 much they were like, guns are cool, and then the 2:47:31.320 --> 2:47:33.720 panthers walked around with some guns. Are like, whoa fucking 2:47:34.879 --> 2:47:37.680 we better do something. And uh. Of course, the the 2:47:38.000 --> 2:47:40.520 image of the panthers with their guns out walking down 2:47:40.560 --> 2:47:44.640 the street, which was their legal right, um, and it 2:47:44.720 --> 2:47:48.879 was brad and it motivated um of course a lot 2:47:48.879 --> 2:47:51.039 of things in California, which now we see where where 2:47:51.040 --> 2:47:54.280 that has led in California gun control laws UM has 2:47:54.320 --> 2:47:56.320 also changed the narrative for so many people that are 2:47:56.400 --> 2:47:59.600 unwilling to look at things from a truly broad historical 2:47:59.640 --> 2:48:02.920 perspect That's only one tiny thing the Black Panthers did, 2:48:03.240 --> 2:48:05.840 and the rest of their actions are so lost to 2:48:05.959 --> 2:48:08.240 just the pictures of them standing around them on car beings. 2:48:08.440 --> 2:48:11.320 And that's another example of leaving out, like the sin 2:48:11.400 --> 2:48:13.520 of a mission. We'll talk about one thing, but not 2:48:13.600 --> 2:48:16.240 the rest, and therefore the historical narrative is only one thing, 2:48:17.000 --> 2:48:18.960 and it is also there's a lesson in that for 2:48:19.000 --> 2:48:21.200 people who are on the left and who are advocates 2:48:21.200 --> 2:48:25.520 of gun ownership about what happens in terms of media 2:48:25.560 --> 2:48:28.080 and in terms of how your movement is thought about 2:48:28.080 --> 2:48:30.840 and remembered when guns are a part of it, Because 2:48:30.879 --> 2:48:33.640 that's always going to for a variety of reasons, and 2:48:33.680 --> 2:48:36.000 we can say a lot of those are very unreasonable reasons. 2:48:36.440 --> 2:48:40.119 But if you are a political group who is armed 2:48:40.240 --> 2:48:43.360 and makes that a visible part of your activism, that 2:48:43.480 --> 2:48:45.879 is going to really dominate a lot of conversations. It 2:48:45.879 --> 2:48:47.560 doesn't mean you shouldn't be, but it means you have 2:48:47.680 --> 2:48:50.039 to go into that understanding that like that's just how 2:48:50.080 --> 2:48:52.960 it works in this country. Yeah, you will immediately get 2:48:53.240 --> 2:48:55.920 you will immediately from at least some part of the perspective, 2:48:56.000 --> 2:48:58.920 whatever whatever side you're on, you will immediately get someone 2:48:59.000 --> 2:49:03.000 slinging like streamist militant at you. Yeah. But by the way, 2:49:03.120 --> 2:49:04.600 I mean, those are real things too. There are those. 2:49:04.640 --> 2:49:07.119 I'm not saying there aren't extremists. Yea, we talk about 2:49:07.160 --> 2:49:09.200 them all the time. Yeah, this country is full of them, 2:49:09.200 --> 2:49:10.800 as is the world. So that's not that's not an 2:49:10.840 --> 2:49:14.280 unreasonable thing that does exist. But the minute you go 2:49:14.320 --> 2:49:16.800 ahead and stand with that gun, you're gonna get that label, 2:49:16.840 --> 2:49:19.920 whether it's truly something you earned or not. There's a 2:49:20.040 --> 2:49:23.200 very deep conversation that we've talked about. We've had it 2:49:23.360 --> 2:49:26.280 in in pieces on this program and other shows that 2:49:26.280 --> 2:49:31.720 we've done on Cool Zone about like win makes sense 2:49:31.920 --> 2:49:35.520 to be openly armed and win makes sense to be 2:49:35.560 --> 2:49:37.800 openly armed as part of a group, because that is 2:49:38.440 --> 2:49:41.680 a very fraught question as like the what happened in 2:49:41.680 --> 2:49:45.440 the chas and made abundantly clear, but in you know, 2:49:45.480 --> 2:49:48.080 a bunch of cases Kyle Rittenhouse and whatnot. There's a 2:49:48.080 --> 2:49:52.840 ton of different reasons why choosing to be openly armed. Um, 2:49:52.879 --> 2:49:54.520 there's a debate to be had about like how that 2:49:54.600 --> 2:49:58.080 influences everyone around you had, that influences influences the demonstration. 2:49:58.160 --> 2:50:00.720 And I've seen and heard it used in in good 2:50:00.760 --> 2:50:03.600 ways in an irresponsible ways. I've seen people carrying guns 2:50:03.640 --> 2:50:06.240 at political events in order to intimidate others. I've also 2:50:06.280 --> 2:50:09.879 seen people carrying guns at political events to create essentially 2:50:09.959 --> 2:50:11.800 a buffer where it's like, Okay, there's going to be 2:50:11.840 --> 2:50:14.000 people fighting at this event. There's going to be clashes. 2:50:14.320 --> 2:50:16.320 If we're standing here as a group with guns, there's 2:50:16.360 --> 2:50:18.400 a place people can run back to and the fighting 2:50:18.440 --> 2:50:21.119 won't continue because nobody wants to push that. And that's yeah, 2:50:21.160 --> 2:50:23.760 without talking about specifics of intent in any of those 2:50:23.760 --> 2:50:26.840 situations you already talked about because I can't, but yeah, 2:50:26.879 --> 2:50:28.920 I think I think it does, Like it always comes 2:50:28.920 --> 2:50:32.160 back to this thing of intent. Right. So to me, um, 2:50:32.240 --> 2:50:35.120 you're right for the firearm, absolutely true, regardless, like even 2:50:35.160 --> 2:50:36.680 if I disagree with you, this is a right, like 2:50:36.680 --> 2:50:38.600 we said, it's protected like the First Amendment, it's the 2:50:38.640 --> 2:50:42.959 second um. But I think the problem starts to come 2:50:43.000 --> 2:50:47.240 when you've decided to bring the firearm solely for the 2:50:47.280 --> 2:50:50.880 intended purpose of intimidation, Like that's that's where I start 2:50:50.920 --> 2:50:53.840 getting like this is this is a troubling right. But 2:50:53.879 --> 2:50:56.520 if you're bringing it for personal defense or community defense, 2:50:56.920 --> 2:51:00.600 or there's a need because your community is really at risk. 2:51:00.640 --> 2:51:02.440 I mean one of the examples of a civil rights 2:51:02.440 --> 2:51:04.600 one was this is some someday I'll do a video 2:51:04.600 --> 2:51:07.360 about this. A community knew that the clan was coming 2:51:07.400 --> 2:51:10.200 to intimidate them, and they armed up with surplus m 2:51:10.200 --> 2:51:14.080 one garren's and steel pot helmets, literally dug fighting positions 2:51:14.200 --> 2:51:16.920 and fought them off. The clan ran for their lives. 2:51:16.920 --> 2:51:19.360 No one was killed, but they literally used m one 2:51:19.480 --> 2:51:24.160 grands to uh to stop the clan from manfiltrating their community. Um, 2:51:24.200 --> 2:51:26.440 that was not used as a weapon of intimidation. It 2:51:26.480 --> 2:51:29.080 was used as a weapon of community defense. I think 2:51:29.080 --> 2:51:34.760 that's intent goes everywhere. Yeah, that's fucking dope too. Um 2:51:34.840 --> 2:51:41.640 and yeah, I uh, I think um one thing that 2:51:41.640 --> 2:51:47.320 that that kind of I think there's a conversation that 2:51:47.360 --> 2:51:49.640 needs to be had when we start talking about when 2:51:49.760 --> 2:51:52.080 is reasonable and what situations are reasonable to carry a 2:51:52.120 --> 2:51:57.280 gun opener concealed about also what should be carried. Um, 2:51:57.320 --> 2:51:59.920 I've certainly seen because I don't I think that the 2:52:00.000 --> 2:52:03.080 most harmful thing is certainly people carrying gun to intimidate. 2:52:03.080 --> 2:52:05.760 I've also seen people carry guns as a fashion statement, 2:52:06.160 --> 2:52:08.920 which is not the same thing but as bad. For example, 2:52:09.000 --> 2:52:11.960 people on the left people at a protests bringing a 2:52:12.000 --> 2:52:14.959 loaded mosen um too, because it was the gun the 2:52:14.959 --> 2:52:17.360 communists used, which is like, you don't you don't want 2:52:17.400 --> 2:52:20.400 to be in a firefight in a dense urban environment 2:52:20.600 --> 2:52:28.280 with a mos in negat did you bring? It is 2:52:28.320 --> 2:52:31.320 a gun that doesn't function without a sizeable hammer, you know. 2:52:35.000 --> 2:52:37.760 And of course people on like I remember outside of 2:52:37.760 --> 2:52:39.959 this anti mask rally, these two guys who are up 2:52:39.959 --> 2:52:41.480 and carrying a RS, one of whom had an a 2:52:41.640 --> 2:52:44.040 r tin with with a hundred round drum was talking 2:52:44.040 --> 2:52:45.879 about it. We had like four hundreds something rounds on 2:52:45.959 --> 2:52:48.440 him and it was like and in case stuff pops off, 2:52:48.480 --> 2:52:52.640 and it's like, what are you? Number one? Like, if 2:52:52.640 --> 2:52:54.959 you're talking like that, you've spent no time thinking about 2:52:55.000 --> 2:52:58.280 what actually happens in the situations in public areas in 2:52:58.280 --> 2:53:01.000 which gunfights occur, But because none of them that have 2:53:01.080 --> 2:53:03.280 happened in any time in the recent future have involved 2:53:03.280 --> 2:53:06.720 people needing to four hundred rounds of ammunition or or 2:53:06.800 --> 2:53:09.480 drum magazines or whatever like you are. You are not 2:53:09.600 --> 2:53:12.959 in Fallujah, you are in Salem, Oregon. Um. The extent 2:53:13.040 --> 2:53:16.520 to which a firearm can be useful for uh self defense, 2:53:16.520 --> 2:53:19.560 and that does not like bragging about the number of 2:53:19.560 --> 2:53:22.360 bullets you have is just like weird and gross. You 2:53:22.400 --> 2:53:24.279 know this is gonna come off maybe a little strange 2:53:24.360 --> 2:53:26.480 or even counterintuitive. But when I hear someone like that 2:53:26.520 --> 2:53:28.720 at what you just described in that particular person. First 2:53:28.760 --> 2:53:30.680 of all, that guns barrel would burst in four and 2:53:30.760 --> 2:53:33.080 a rounds, but that's a whole another topic probably, But 2:53:33.160 --> 2:53:37.760 that said, UM, when I hear that, I almost have like, um, 2:53:37.760 --> 2:53:39.879 it's kind of sad because the reason that's sad is 2:53:39.920 --> 2:53:42.120 that person is doing that one because they've been sold 2:53:42.160 --> 2:53:44.879 the idea, but the firearms and talisman like that. To me, 2:53:45.120 --> 2:53:48.400 that person is acting like that's a talisman. Secondarily, the 2:53:48.480 --> 2:53:50.480 reason they have four in a rounds is because they've 2:53:50.520 --> 2:53:54.400 been sold a pretty big bill of fear. And that's 2:53:54.440 --> 2:53:58.920 that's sad for anyone to live a life based on fear. Yeah, yeah, 2:53:58.920 --> 2:54:01.800 I would agree with that, And I really, um, do 2:54:01.840 --> 2:54:04.080 you have anything else you wanted to get into and this, uh, 2:54:04.120 --> 2:54:06.680 this conversation, well, I don't know. I mean we're just 2:54:06.680 --> 2:54:09.400 here to talk about like community. I just I think 2:54:09.400 --> 2:54:11.920 one thing that's really important and it's something that UM 2:54:13.480 --> 2:54:15.440 is a positive and I'm happy to see this is 2:54:15.520 --> 2:54:17.440 that it was kind of a happy accident with my work. 2:54:17.480 --> 2:54:19.199 I didn't even think about it. It It is hard to happen, 2:54:19.640 --> 2:54:22.039 but this is a much the people people that love, 2:54:22.879 --> 2:54:25.440 first of all, just the sport. There's a lot of us. 2:54:25.480 --> 2:54:27.800 There's a lot of us of all spectrums across the 2:54:27.800 --> 2:54:30.720 board UM. People that believe in the right from the 2:54:30.760 --> 2:54:34.840 person purposes of personal defense and community defense there across 2:54:34.879 --> 2:54:37.199 the board. And I think that one of the things 2:54:37.200 --> 2:54:39.560 that we need to do is not let the narrative 2:54:39.640 --> 2:54:42.840 be only one, which is we see so much of 2:54:43.160 --> 2:54:47.280 UM very much just like right wing I'm gonna usually 2:54:47.320 --> 2:54:51.400 say Christian white males need like completely dominating this conversation 2:54:51.760 --> 2:54:54.160 as though, and they think they owe as a result 2:54:54.320 --> 2:54:57.720 own the space. Now it would be in their interest too, 2:54:57.840 --> 2:55:00.920 from the perspective of preserving fire and rights, to be 2:55:00.959 --> 2:55:03.359 inclusive and have everyone that believes in that a particular 2:55:03.440 --> 2:55:06.200 thing work together to make sure we don't lose a right, 2:55:06.200 --> 2:55:09.760 because the right unexercised is lost right. So even if 2:55:09.760 --> 2:55:12.000 I disagree with you on economic policy, but we agree 2:55:12.040 --> 2:55:14.840 on firearms rights. We have an agreement there, and that 2:55:14.920 --> 2:55:17.520 makes us somehow interestingly in the same space. We have 2:55:17.600 --> 2:55:20.879 something in common versus something diversive, and I think that 2:55:20.959 --> 2:55:23.040 part of the conversation, at least within reason. I mean, 2:55:23.040 --> 2:55:25.480 there are people that are legitimately dangerous, you don't negotiate 2:55:25.520 --> 2:55:28.800 with them, but within reason, like agreeing on that topic 2:55:28.840 --> 2:55:31.000 means well, we've got something in common here. There's probably 2:55:31.040 --> 2:55:33.320 other things too, and maybe that could be a place 2:55:33.320 --> 2:55:35.600 where we kind of try to make that conversation better, 2:55:35.720 --> 2:55:40.280 not worse. And so by being more open inclusive and saying, hey, 2:55:40.280 --> 2:55:42.120 there's people here and people there and here we are 2:55:42.160 --> 2:55:46.120 all together doing this together. Um, perhaps conversation can be 2:55:46.160 --> 2:55:48.040 had that's better than what we've been having. Maybe it 2:55:48.120 --> 2:55:53.720 can be actually a community builder versus a community destroyer. Yeah, yeah, 2:55:53.760 --> 2:55:56.760 I would like to see that. Um well, I think 2:55:56.760 --> 2:55:58.680 that's as good a note as any to uh to 2:55:58.760 --> 2:56:01.000 close out on car You wanna you want to throw 2:56:01.040 --> 2:56:04.280 your plug ables up before we were right out of here? Yeah, sure, 2:56:04.360 --> 2:56:06.080 I mean so I run in range TV. You can 2:56:06.160 --> 2:56:09.959 find me an in range dot TV, um completely viewer 2:56:10.000 --> 2:56:11.920 supported like I said, I don't wanty sponsors or anything 2:56:11.959 --> 2:56:14.000 I like. I like the idea of the people liking 2:56:14.040 --> 2:56:16.440 watching it support it. So if you like it cool, 2:56:16.520 --> 2:56:19.520 come check it out all over the place. YouTube bit 2:56:19.600 --> 2:56:23.000 shoot decentralized video contrat distributions another thing I believe in 2:56:23.040 --> 2:56:26.640 strong would the corporate oligarchy. But yeah, come out. If 2:56:26.680 --> 2:56:28.560 you want to have a little bit different take on 2:56:28.560 --> 2:56:30.359 fire and stuff, or you're just in in the confluence 2:56:30.400 --> 2:56:32.960 of civil rights and guns and stuff, come check out 2:56:33.000 --> 2:56:36.080 in Range TV. I'd appreciate I always appreciate new viewers, 2:56:36.080 --> 2:56:41.039 and thanks for checking it out. Awesome, all right, um, yeah, 2:56:41.320 --> 2:56:45.879 check out in Range TV, and uh check us out somewhere. 2:56:46.400 --> 2:56:48.920 We won't tell you where, but you can find us 2:56:48.920 --> 2:56:58.440 if you keep us in your hearts. What grows in 2:56:58.480 --> 2:57:01.840 the forest trees, Sure you know what else? Girls in 2:57:01.920 --> 2:57:05.760 the forest, Our imagination, our sense of wonder, and our 2:57:05.800 --> 2:57:09.039 family bonds grow too, because when we disconnect from this 2:57:11.520 --> 2:57:16.160 and connect with this, we reconnect with each other. 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I'm 2:57:28.920 --> 2:57:31.200 Zoe de Chanel and I'm so excited to be joined 2:57:31.200 --> 2:57:33.880 by my friends and cast meetes Hannah Simone and Lamar 2:57:33.920 --> 2:57:37.320 and Morris to recap our hit television series New Girl. 2:57:37.640 --> 2:57:40.519 Join us every Monday on the Welcome to Our Show podcast, 2:57:40.600 --> 2:57:43.120 where we'll share behind the scenes stories of your favorite 2:57:43.120 --> 2:57:46.120 New Girl episodes, reveal the truth behind the legendary game 2:57:46.120 --> 2:57:49.520 True American, and discuss how this show got made with 2:57:49.560 --> 2:57:52.199 the writer's, guest stars and directors who made the show 2:57:52.200 --> 2:57:54.680 so special. Fans have been begging us to do a 2:57:54.680 --> 2:57:57.440 New Girl recap for years, and we finally meet a 2:57:57.440 --> 2:58:00.440 podcast where we answer all your burning question is like 2:58:01.120 --> 2:58:04.080 is there really a bear? In every episode of New Girl? 2:58:04.480 --> 2:58:08.400 Plus each week you'll hear hilarious stories like this at 2:58:08.440 --> 2:58:10.280 the end when he says you got some schmid on 2:58:10.320 --> 2:58:13.200 your face. I feel like I pitched that job. I 2:58:13.240 --> 2:58:14.920 believe that I feel like I did. I'm not on 2:58:14.959 --> 2:58:16.880 a thousand percent. I want to say that was I 2:58:17.240 --> 2:58:19.400 tossed that one out. Listen to the Welcome to Our 2:58:19.440 --> 2:58:22.760 Show podcast on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, 2:58:22.959 --> 2:58:32.760 or wherever you get your podcasts. So I Burnett X. 2:58:34.360 --> 2:58:37.120 All right, this is this is me Christopher Wong, realizing 2:58:37.120 --> 2:58:40.679 that I have done like sixteen consecutive actual real introductions 2:58:40.680 --> 2:58:42.720 and that if I keep doing them, everyone's gonna expect 2:58:42.760 --> 2:58:44.720 that I do a real introduction every time instead of 2:58:45.120 --> 2:58:49.040 like randomly yelling something. So yeah, well, welcome to it 2:58:49.080 --> 2:58:51.280 could happen here. I am trying to make my job 2:58:52.520 --> 2:58:57.720 function as it should and not professionalize it. Um and 2:58:57.959 --> 2:59:01.480 this is this is a podcast about beings that are bad, 2:59:02.080 --> 2:59:04.440 but it's also occasionally a podcast about things that are 2:59:04.480 --> 2:59:07.800 good and how, in fact, there can be a society 2:59:07.800 --> 2:59:11.160 beyond this one, and to talk about some of the 2:59:11.160 --> 2:59:13.240 shades of what that could look like. I have with 2:59:13.280 --> 2:59:16.240 me the co host of the General Intellect Unit Kyle 2:59:16.280 --> 2:59:19.240 and June, which is a podcast on the Emancipation Network. 2:59:19.280 --> 2:59:22.080 That is I to this is the tagline the podcast 2:59:22.080 --> 2:59:26.680 of the Cybernetic Marxists. I am. I am very excited. Yeah, 2:59:26.800 --> 2:59:30.039 so it's really exciting to be here. Absolutely, thank you 2:59:30.080 --> 2:59:33.959 for coming on. Um yeah, I guess okay, we should 2:59:34.000 --> 2:59:39.600 start at the the very very beginning, because I don't 2:59:39.600 --> 2:59:46.520 think most people know any of this. What is cybernetics, right? Um, so, 2:59:46.640 --> 2:59:52.160 cybernetics is I guess a term that comes from what 2:59:52.320 --> 2:59:57.480 is it the Kaibernetes right, steering, uh, the idea of 2:59:57.560 --> 3:00:02.680 steering a boat um, so using your ore to navigate 3:00:02.760 --> 3:00:09.920 the waters. Um. And so essentially it is a science 3:00:10.200 --> 3:00:15.560 of control. And that sounds really scary, but what it 3:00:15.680 --> 3:00:22.000 means is that it's that kind of connection between the 3:00:22.120 --> 3:00:29.480 steers person, the oar, the boat, their body and the 3:00:29.560 --> 3:00:34.640 water around them and getting all of those things in 3:00:34.879 --> 3:00:39.720 sync in such a way that the steers person is 3:00:39.760 --> 3:00:41.920 going where they want to go, the ship or the 3:00:41.920 --> 3:00:47.000 boat doesn't capsize and they don't lose the ore um. 3:00:47.520 --> 3:00:52.680 And so that's what control means. It's a kind of balancing, 3:00:53.520 --> 3:01:00.400 a kind of connection between the organism and the ironment 3:01:00.640 --> 3:01:04.520 in such a way that it can survive and thrive. Yeah, 3:01:04.520 --> 3:01:08.040 and that's what cybernexs is focused on. Yeah. The thing 3:01:08.080 --> 3:01:11.400 I love about them, the steersman metaphor is that like 3:01:11.560 --> 3:01:14.480 it's all about it's control in the sense of regulation, 3:01:14.560 --> 3:01:18.040 but also like very importantly in cybernetics, it's almost always 3:01:18.080 --> 3:01:22.080 self regulation um because like the one of the kind 3:01:22.080 --> 3:01:27.360 of core principles. Again, like the because the term usually 3:01:27.360 --> 3:01:30.000 calls to mind this like kind of terminator like UM 3:01:30.840 --> 3:01:34.320 like cybergothic kind of domination. It's actually not what the 3:01:34.680 --> 3:01:37.320 field is about at all. It's UM because one of 3:01:37.360 --> 3:01:39.640 the core insights of cybernetics is actually that any given 3:01:39.680 --> 3:01:43.520 system UM, the only thing that can really control it 3:01:43.600 --> 3:01:46.959 is itself because of the sheer complexity of systems. So 3:01:47.040 --> 3:01:51.960 that like UM, like the kind of like top down 3:01:52.000 --> 3:01:54.640 external domination of an organism that we all fear is 3:01:54.720 --> 3:01:56.000 kind of like actually, if you look at the cyber 3:01:56.040 --> 3:02:00.400 cyberanetics literature, that's not not actually really possible because the 3:02:00.400 --> 3:02:03.320 the the the external controller would never have enough complexity 3:02:03.360 --> 3:02:07.520 to match what the organism is capable of. UM. And 3:02:07.840 --> 3:02:12.760 you know, organisms are self regulating systems. The steersman with 3:02:12.800 --> 3:02:15.359 his boat is a self regulating system that like regulates 3:02:15.440 --> 3:02:18.960 its upright position in the water and regulates its course 3:02:19.080 --> 3:02:23.200 that's directed towards its goal. UM. So it's it's that's 3:02:23.200 --> 3:02:25.320 why it's so important. I think that's why we think 3:02:25.360 --> 3:02:28.640 it's so important for the left and like people who 3:02:28.640 --> 3:02:31.600 are concerned with these like you know, visions of a 3:02:32.560 --> 3:02:35.560 politics of autonomy and liberation that really need to look 3:02:35.560 --> 3:02:37.160 at this stuff, because it turns out there kind of 3:02:37.240 --> 3:02:41.240 is a science of like autonomous self guiding organic systems. 3:02:41.520 --> 3:02:46.959 You know, yeah, no terminator here, yes, and yeah, I 3:02:47.000 --> 3:02:52.240 mean you know when you see uh, scary videos of 3:02:52.360 --> 3:02:58.600 militarized robots and they're learning to you know, jump and 3:02:58.920 --> 3:03:03.240 fire weapons ends and all that kind of stuff. There 3:03:03.240 --> 3:03:08.320 certainly is cybernetics involved there, but that is a kind 3:03:08.360 --> 3:03:13.959 of domain application of cybernetics. Rather than defining what cybernetics is, 3:03:14.080 --> 3:03:18.440 it's really kind of holistic systems thinking in general is 3:03:18.480 --> 3:03:22.360 what cybernetics is. Yeah, yeah, that that's that. That's that's 3:03:22.360 --> 3:03:26.400 probably worth emphasizing, right that, Like um, um, cybernetics in 3:03:26.400 --> 3:03:29.640 some ways is kind of like out of fashion these days, 3:03:29.640 --> 3:03:33.800 like it kind of evolved into systems thinking and like, um, 3:03:33.840 --> 3:03:35.280 I guess a lot of its lessons got kind of 3:03:35.280 --> 3:03:38.720 absorbed in general. But we find there's great value in 3:03:38.800 --> 3:03:41.240 going back to them, the kind of originators and like 3:03:41.640 --> 3:03:45.720 focusing on that field. It's like we on the show, 3:03:45.760 --> 3:03:49.520 we got into the cybernetics angle by reading Andrew Pickering 3:03:50.280 --> 3:03:53.039 in his book The Cybernetic Brain, in which um, he 3:03:53.120 --> 3:03:55.280 kind of acknowledged that like there's he kind of split 3:03:55.320 --> 3:03:58.360 it intoo, like there's American cybernetics like which had that 3:03:58.440 --> 3:04:02.240 kind of like um dour kind of military domination sort 3:04:02.240 --> 3:04:03.959 of flavor to it. That like it's kind of an 3:04:04.000 --> 3:04:06.879 earned reputation there. But Pickering was more concerned with like 3:04:06.879 --> 3:04:09.720 British cybernetics, Um, it's like a lot of British thinkers 3:04:10.000 --> 3:04:12.480 that and it had a very different flavor there where 3:04:12.480 --> 3:04:14.800 it was more open ended. It was kind of had 3:04:14.800 --> 3:04:16.800 more of a focus on kind of liberation than like 3:04:17.480 --> 3:04:19.760 politics and stuff. And in fact, some of those like 3:04:19.879 --> 3:04:23.240 Gray Walter was like explicitly an anarchist, like wrote in 3:04:23.280 --> 3:04:26.680 Anarchist UM like journals and stuff like that, um. And 3:04:26.720 --> 3:04:29.760 for him, like those two things went hand in glove 3:04:29.879 --> 3:04:35.240 right like that, like um liberatory politics as like um, 3:04:35.400 --> 3:04:38.680 the politics of like human flourishing, like as human human 3:04:38.680 --> 3:04:42.280 beings as autonomous units flourishing in their own contexts, and 3:04:42.480 --> 3:04:45.320 of like social systems that would enable that kind of flourishing. 3:04:45.800 --> 3:04:47.720 To him, that was just hand in glove with cybernetics. 3:04:47.760 --> 3:04:49.920 There was no real distinction there. It was just like, yeah, 3:04:49.959 --> 3:04:52.959 these these two things fit each other perfectly, which you 3:04:53.040 --> 3:04:56.760 lose later with like general systems theory sort of stuff. 3:04:56.800 --> 3:04:59.400 You know, it's like there's there's plenty. I don't know 3:04:59.480 --> 3:05:03.280 whom I think here like them like the Tally, that 3:05:03.360 --> 3:05:05.680 guy with the like black swansor to stuff like he's 3:05:05.879 --> 3:05:09.400 biggest system and stuff. But like isn't so much um 3:05:09.560 --> 3:05:11.920 isn't so much into the libratory politics. I guess you know, 3:05:12.320 --> 3:05:14.080 a lot of that angle is kind of lost. Yeah, 3:05:14.080 --> 3:05:15.879 And I think this is awesome. This is you know, 3:05:15.879 --> 3:05:18.560 this is sort of a product of, I guess, the 3:05:18.800 --> 3:05:22.360 broader ideological course that's going on while such a cyberie 3:05:22.400 --> 3:05:25.080 comes in and out of fashion. I think I think 3:05:25.120 --> 3:05:28.080 we should go back a bit to the begetting to 3:05:28.120 --> 3:05:31.720 sort of situate this because I know, like when I 3:05:32.080 --> 3:05:34.760 like before I ever did any reading, What's ever next, 3:05:34.840 --> 3:05:36.800 Like my immediate assumption was that it was it was 3:05:36.840 --> 3:05:38.440 you know, this, this is the thing that was entirely 3:05:38.520 --> 3:05:41.240 just based off of computers, right that this is like 3:05:41.520 --> 3:05:46.440 this is and that's not really true from might understandtanding 3:05:46.400 --> 3:05:48.119 of us. Can we go back and sort of like 3:05:49.080 --> 3:05:51.760 talk about where this came from a bit and how 3:05:51.800 --> 3:05:56.640 it's sort of moves over this over sert of the 3:05:56.640 --> 3:06:01.720 sexes and yeah, go from there. Yeah, I think you 3:06:01.760 --> 3:06:06.640 can kind of trace it back in it's sort of 3:06:07.600 --> 3:06:15.800 European origins to UM. You could probably say Hagel, Uh, 3:06:16.120 --> 3:06:22.080 you know his his move towards like UM understanding being 3:06:22.160 --> 3:06:25.920 not just as substance but as subject I think is 3:06:26.320 --> 3:06:29.879 a move towards a kind of cybernetic understanding where you 3:06:30.000 --> 3:06:38.640 understand the whole system as a holistic entity as opposed 3:06:38.680 --> 3:06:45.640 to just an individual interacting with an external environment. UM. 3:06:46.040 --> 3:06:49.879 And you can also see this come up in say 3:06:51.760 --> 3:06:57.400 there was a ecologist X skill in the German ecologists 3:06:57.720 --> 3:07:01.400 in the early twentieth century, I believe, who was trying 3:07:01.440 --> 3:07:06.120 to understand, you know, the organism in its environment. Uh. 3:07:06.240 --> 3:07:09.800 The sort of precursors to ecology can be seen as 3:07:09.840 --> 3:07:15.800 precursors to cybernetics UM. And then when you get to 3:07:17.040 --> 3:07:22.120 the kind of development of cybernetics as a science or 3:07:22.160 --> 3:07:28.200 as a discipline UM in the mid twentieth century, it's 3:07:28.320 --> 3:07:37.080 not exactly about computing it's UM. It's more about balancing 3:07:37.360 --> 3:07:42.160 a machine with its environment. So UM. The sort of 3:07:42.320 --> 3:07:49.720 prototypical UM machine of this kind was the servo mechanism, 3:07:49.760 --> 3:07:55.400 which was used to help guide a like an anti 3:07:55.440 --> 3:08:00.520 aircraft gun in shooting down enemy aircraft. So making sure 3:08:00.560 --> 3:08:04.400 it tracks properly with the target, it doesn't lose the target, 3:08:04.800 --> 3:08:10.080 and is assisting the operator in operating the gun instead 3:08:10.240 --> 3:08:17.320 of just being a inanimate object that has trouble tracking 3:08:17.360 --> 3:08:20.240 what it's a very fast moving target. I mean, you 3:08:20.240 --> 3:08:23.120 can even think back to like the you know, in 3:08:23.160 --> 3:08:26.520 World War One when they discovered, hey, we could actually 3:08:26.560 --> 3:08:29.560 like synchronize the timing of the propeller and the timing 3:08:29.600 --> 3:08:32.080 of our gun on the front of this plane so 3:08:32.120 --> 3:08:35.600 that our guns aren't destroying our propellers and shooting and 3:08:35.640 --> 3:08:38.920 we're we're we're shooting our own planes down with our 3:08:38.959 --> 3:08:44.879 guns when we're dog fighting, right, Like It's yeah, that's 3:08:44.879 --> 3:08:48.920 the system's understanding, right. So that's um, that's that's Norbert 3:08:49.000 --> 3:08:52.000 Leonard Rice and working on the m automated gun turret stuff. 3:08:52.000 --> 3:08:56.080 And that's he coins the term cybernetics to like um 3:08:56.120 --> 3:08:58.520 given name to the thing he was starting to discover. 3:08:58.640 --> 3:09:00.120 And it's like he was kind of pulling to other 3:09:00.200 --> 3:09:02.400 a bunch of rights there, and like one of those 3:09:02.440 --> 3:09:05.720 kind of important insights is that like, um, like they 3:09:05.760 --> 3:09:09.440 couldn't get an improvement in like targeting and accuracy without 3:09:09.640 --> 3:09:12.520 like basically making the gun turret and agent of its 3:09:12.520 --> 3:09:15.240 own that link and the like the turret and the 3:09:15.240 --> 3:09:20.360 gunner would be cooperative agents that in combination would m 3:09:20.560 --> 3:09:23.200 achieve their goal. But like there was there was there's 3:09:23.200 --> 3:09:25.240 something strange and spooky about that. And I think that 3:09:25.280 --> 3:09:28.720 then this feedback mechanism inside the turret gives it a 3:09:28.760 --> 3:09:32.240 sort of weird agency that combines with the agency of 3:09:32.280 --> 3:09:35.080 the gunner to like guide to the whole system towards 3:09:35.080 --> 3:09:40.560 the goal um. Yes. And what it ends up becoming 3:09:40.600 --> 3:09:47.280 then is a kind of boundary space where the distinction 3:09:47.520 --> 3:09:54.840 between human and machine UH starts to become ambiguous because 3:09:54.959 --> 3:09:57.760 they both start to possess they're both understood to have 3:09:57.920 --> 3:10:01.400 a kind of agency, they're both understood to have kinds 3:10:01.400 --> 3:10:06.520 of like functions, And then you kind of get this 3:10:06.840 --> 3:10:11.560 sort of like human machine interface idea, and you can 3:10:11.640 --> 3:10:14.000 start to bring in all of these different ideas from 3:10:14.040 --> 3:10:21.959 like anthropology, from physiology, from math, from ecology, UH, and 3:10:22.160 --> 3:10:27.359 they all start to interact in this domain of cybernetics. 3:10:28.320 --> 3:10:30.560 And like the core, the core idea of them that 3:10:30.840 --> 3:10:34.280 kind of ties everything together is that of feedback. UM. So, 3:10:34.440 --> 3:10:38.160 like weener realizes that what he needs to do achieve 3:10:38.200 --> 3:10:41.120 this goal is is a feedback mechanism, and that would 3:10:41.520 --> 3:10:43.560 is error correcting feedback, right like if the if the 3:10:43.560 --> 3:10:45.440 gun is slightly too far to the left, it corrects 3:10:45.440 --> 3:10:48.320 itself right words and so on. UM. But that, as 3:10:48.360 --> 3:10:50.240 you said, that that connects across all sorts of things, right, 3:10:50.280 --> 3:10:53.439 Like you start to realize that's present everywhere in ecology, 3:10:53.600 --> 3:10:59.800 in neurology, in UM, like that learning is based on feedback, 3:10:59.800 --> 3:11:02.199 you know. So it's really funny to read to read 3:11:02.280 --> 3:11:06.119 Norbet Leaner like in the fifties basically describing what would 3:11:06.120 --> 3:11:08.560 become machine learning, and he's just like he just off 3:11:08.560 --> 3:11:11.039 the coff is like, yeah, like if you could, if 3:11:11.040 --> 3:11:13.879 a machine could like UM, or if if any system 3:11:13.920 --> 3:11:17.480 could just like UM analyze its own performance and then 3:11:17.520 --> 3:11:19.560 feedback onto itself, it would it would learn any old 3:11:19.560 --> 3:11:21.760 pattern you wanted it to. And he's like yeah, he 3:11:21.840 --> 3:11:24.760 turns out he was completely correct. And that's that's where 3:11:24.879 --> 3:11:27.520 kind of like gets into like you get later thinkers 3:11:27.560 --> 3:11:32.200 like Ross Ashby who was UM and like other folks 3:11:32.240 --> 3:11:34.640 like we in in and around psychiatry, we were like 3:11:34.959 --> 3:11:37.800 really interested in how the brain worked. And that's that's 3:11:37.800 --> 3:11:41.920 the other thing that feeds into like cybernetics is like, um, 3:11:42.160 --> 3:11:44.480 it's It's why Pickering called his book the Cybernetic Brains, 3:11:44.480 --> 3:11:47.160 because like the brain and like nervous systems show up 3:11:47.200 --> 3:11:51.080 so much in that field, right that, Like the brain 3:11:51.160 --> 3:11:53.840 being a kind of learning and adapt an adapt adaptation 3:11:53.879 --> 3:11:58.800 machine attached to the body or whatever, and like, um, yeah, 3:11:58.800 --> 3:12:00.840 I don't know, there's there's something fascinating there, and like, um, 3:12:01.120 --> 3:12:04.200 the I mean there's something kind of possibly troubling and 3:12:04.240 --> 3:12:07.320 kind of melting down the distinctions between living organisms and 3:12:07.360 --> 3:12:10.760 machines or whatever, but like there's also something very compelling 3:12:10.800 --> 3:12:14.040 and just like recognizing the same patterns happening at all 3:12:14.080 --> 3:12:18.120 these different levels, right that, Like um, like you get 3:12:18.160 --> 3:12:20.800 similar behaviors and similar kind of outcomes, and then you know, 3:12:20.920 --> 3:12:22.440 it turns out like you can kind of do with 3:12:22.560 --> 3:12:26.560 science on these things and and come up with even 3:12:26.560 --> 3:12:31.480 better explanatory frameworks based on your observations across many fields. Yes, 3:12:31.680 --> 3:12:36.480 and so it is in a sense about computers. But 3:12:36.680 --> 3:12:42.240 the computers are really just understood to act like a 3:12:42.400 --> 3:12:47.679 kind of brain and that's connected to a nervous system 3:12:47.720 --> 3:12:51.680 which is connected to you know, like actuators of some 3:12:51.760 --> 3:12:54.960 kinds some kinds of like machines that actually do things 3:12:55.040 --> 3:13:01.240 in the world. So it's not about like say computer 3:13:01.640 --> 3:13:05.560 science specifically, it's more about, like, well, computers are a 3:13:05.640 --> 3:13:12.800 useful way to do cybernetic design because they can act 3:13:12.840 --> 3:13:16.600 as a control system and they're flexible. It's not that 3:13:16.920 --> 3:13:21.280 this is about computers really, yeah, yeah, absolutely, And like 3:13:21.320 --> 3:13:23.440 that you brought you brought up something very important there 3:13:23.480 --> 3:13:26.680 that like, um, in all cases of like cybernetics, like 3:13:26.760 --> 3:13:29.560 the the systems that we're considering are not like isolated 3:13:29.640 --> 3:13:31.680 like braining a box kind of things. They're all the 3:13:31.720 --> 3:13:35.440 things that are directly engaged with a world, um Like. 3:13:35.640 --> 3:13:39.360 So it's it's not that kind of like monatic kind 3:13:39.400 --> 3:13:42.800 of rationalism of like computation just happening in a box 3:13:42.840 --> 3:13:45.280 somewhere and like perfect intelligence and that kind of the 3:13:45.360 --> 3:13:48.720 kind of stuff. These are always, like the separantations, are 3:13:48.720 --> 3:13:51.680 always working with systems that were engaged in real time 3:13:51.720 --> 3:13:56.240 emergence situations UM. And because of that, they rapidly kind 3:13:56.240 --> 3:14:01.039 of like acknowledge that for so many of these system 3:14:01.120 --> 3:14:02.720 is the only way to figure out what it's going 3:14:02.760 --> 3:14:05.800 to do is to let it do it UM because 3:14:05.840 --> 3:14:09.400 you can't like pre compute all the possible outcomes. You know, 3:14:09.520 --> 3:14:13.599 of these like very sticky and complex real world situations, 3:14:14.120 --> 3:14:16.080 the best way to figure out what it's going to 3:14:16.120 --> 3:14:18.960 do is to let it do it and watch. Yes. 3:14:19.200 --> 3:14:21.120 And I think I think that's an interesting sort of 3:14:21.160 --> 3:14:23.080 like if if you look at where a lot of 3:14:23.120 --> 3:14:29.600 the sort of like techno fetishists like social attempts to 3:14:29.640 --> 3:14:32.160 sort of like manipulate a side e technology of God, 3:14:32.280 --> 3:14:35.480 it's like, yeah, you get like like blockchain smart contracts, 3:14:35.520 --> 3:14:39.080 and it's like the blockchain smart contract is like, Okay, 3:14:39.520 --> 3:14:42.760 we're going to think of literally everything that could possibly 3:14:42.800 --> 3:14:45.040 happen an attempt to put it in like a very 3:14:45.080 --> 3:14:48.560 small amount of code, and if anything like literally anything 3:14:48.600 --> 3:14:52.840 at all happens that you know that we didn't expect. 3:14:53.800 --> 3:14:56.200 Where now everyone is now screwed because we have just 3:14:56.280 --> 3:14:57.840 made this thing imautable and put it in such a 3:14:57.879 --> 3:15:00.400 way that we can't change it. Yeah, I think that, Yeah, 3:15:00.440 --> 3:15:02.640 that's a I think this is a useful sort of 3:15:03.560 --> 3:15:06.160 I mean corrective just it just in the way that 3:15:06.200 --> 3:15:08.680 we've we've we've now like like we've gone backwards, like 3:15:08.680 --> 3:15:10.600 we've we've gotten into this place where you instead of 3:15:10.640 --> 3:15:12.480 like we need to let these systems play out, we 3:15:12.520 --> 3:15:14.400 need to let them control themselves. We've gotten to like 3:15:16.680 --> 3:15:19.480 we think that we can actually just sort of like 3:15:20.240 --> 3:15:24.480 you know, turn turn the entire system into code that 3:15:24.520 --> 3:15:27.080 we can break ahead of time and have you know, 3:15:27.480 --> 3:15:30.640 the basis of some sort of social system off of Yeah, 3:15:30.680 --> 3:15:32.120 I mean it's I think it's something that like the 3:15:32.160 --> 3:15:35.400 Sarpetitions and like maybe Pickering what described as like a 3:15:35.760 --> 3:15:39.760 kind of perversity of modern cost like the modern mindsets 3:15:39.840 --> 3:15:43.960 like that, that kind of like rational like um kind 3:15:43.959 --> 3:15:47.000 of mindset right like um, and like to the sarpetitions, 3:15:47.040 --> 3:15:48.959 that that whole thing with like the bloock chain stuff 3:15:48.959 --> 3:15:52.280 will be just truly laughable because it's immediate, It's immediately 3:15:52.360 --> 3:15:56.800 obvious to them that the problem. There's like, okay, proposing 3:15:56.920 --> 3:15:58.680 we're going to use a blockchain to regulate some sort 3:15:58.680 --> 3:16:01.320 of social process or whatever, smart contracts, whatever, and it's 3:16:01.360 --> 3:16:04.120 like that thing has nowhere near the fidelity required to 3:16:04.200 --> 3:16:08.560 regulate social processes. Because social processes are unimaginably complex and 3:16:08.600 --> 3:16:11.959 have just incredible variety. There's a there's a there's like 3:16:12.000 --> 3:16:14.240 a law that's at the House of Cybernattics called Ashby's 3:16:14.280 --> 3:16:17.760 Law of requisite variety, And in short, it basically states 3:16:17.800 --> 3:16:22.160 that given a system um, the only thing that's really 3:16:22.160 --> 3:16:25.959 capable of regulating is regulating it is itself, because a 3:16:26.040 --> 3:16:30.200 regulator needs as much variety as the thing it's regulating 3:16:30.400 --> 3:16:34.240 if it's gonna like actually succeeded it um. And so 3:16:34.360 --> 3:16:36.680 that's that's the kind of thing that nudges everyone towards, 3:16:37.120 --> 3:16:39.760 like like when you get to someone like Stafford Beer 3:16:40.000 --> 3:16:43.959 is his whole model of like organization pushes all a 3:16:44.000 --> 3:16:46.560 lot of the intelligence downwards to the to the bottom layers, 3:16:46.560 --> 3:16:49.120 because there is basically the people on the ground on 3:16:49.160 --> 3:16:51.879 the shop floor are the people who are best informed 3:16:51.920 --> 3:16:54.240 to actually deal with their own situation. And that's that 3:16:54.280 --> 3:16:57.000 sounds like a banal observation, but like it for Beer 3:16:57.080 --> 3:16:58.840 that was actually quite a step forward to like just 3:16:58.920 --> 3:17:03.240 admit that like trying to trying to like in his context, 3:17:03.240 --> 3:17:06.280 it was like often the organization of a firm, like 3:17:06.320 --> 3:17:09.200 at our company, like trying to manage a company from 3:17:09.280 --> 3:17:12.960 the boardroom is just fucking ludicrous, Like no nobody there 3:17:12.959 --> 3:17:16.759 has enough information to act on They're all dumbasses anyway. 3:17:16.920 --> 3:17:18.800 So for Beer, it was just like this is where 3:17:18.800 --> 3:17:21.040 it starts to get interesting and it connects to the politics, 3:17:21.160 --> 3:17:24.160 right that like for one of these scientists just observing 3:17:24.200 --> 3:17:27.640 reality and like you know, using you know, pretty pretty 3:17:27.640 --> 3:17:30.680 good stray intuitions and like scientific frameworks, just looking at 3:17:30.720 --> 3:17:32.840 it and going like, oh, it is obviously the case 3:17:32.920 --> 3:17:35.760 that the best way for society to organize is bottom 3:17:35.840 --> 3:17:39.560 up self organization. Um. And that that like it's not 3:17:39.640 --> 3:17:42.560 just a moral point, it's actually a technical point as well, 3:17:42.920 --> 3:17:46.520 that like, um, these these top down, bureaucratic kind of 3:17:47.000 --> 3:17:50.800 micro tyrannies are not only morally objectionable, they're also technically 3:17:50.800 --> 3:17:53.280 inferior to the kind of like cyber communism we want 3:17:53.320 --> 3:17:56.080 to institute. Yeah, and I have like what if one 3:17:56.080 --> 3:17:59.560 of my what if? What of my favorite stories about 3:17:59.600 --> 3:18:01.560 So I worked as a maintenance worker for a while 3:18:01.760 --> 3:18:04.320 and one day my boss was like, there's some problem 3:18:04.360 --> 3:18:06.440 with a sink. And my boss was like, no, we 3:18:06.440 --> 3:18:08.720 don't need the plumbers. I can do this. And so 3:18:08.760 --> 3:18:10.360 he goes in there and it's it's what it's like, 3:18:10.400 --> 3:18:11.960 it's it's like a sink in like a building, right, 3:18:11.959 --> 3:18:13.240 So it's it has just one of those things that 3:18:13.320 --> 3:18:15.039 there's like a pipe that connects to the top of 3:18:15.080 --> 3:18:18.080 the sink to like the wall, and he goes, okay, here, 3:18:18.080 --> 3:18:20.039 look at this, I'm gonna I'm gonna turn this valve 3:18:20.040 --> 3:18:22.280 and this is gonna turn the water off. And what 3:18:22.360 --> 3:18:25.400 he instead does is he take he takes the pipe 3:18:25.520 --> 3:18:28.760 off of the wall and just like a torrent of 3:18:28.840 --> 3:18:31.600 water is just now shooting out of this pipe because 3:18:31.640 --> 3:18:33.960 he has removed the thing. Yeah, he's removed the pipe 3:18:34.000 --> 3:18:38.160 from the wall. This is you know, this is this 3:18:38.200 --> 3:18:41.720 is why I think like, yeah, go this this, this, 3:18:41.720 --> 3:18:44.480 this this, you know this this is like a particularly 3:18:44.520 --> 3:18:48.199 funny example of how these sort of top down management systems. 3:18:48.200 --> 3:18:51.160 And this guy like like used to be a maintenance guy, right, 3:18:51.200 --> 3:18:54.280 but he just like most a plumber and so you know, 3:18:54.360 --> 3:18:56.280 and he accepts into it and he's like, oh no, no no, no, no, no, 3:18:56.400 --> 3:18:58.160 hold on, I know I know how this system works. 3:18:58.200 --> 3:19:00.560 It's gonna be fine. And it just there is a 3:19:00.560 --> 3:19:02.400 guys like the guys are of water has so much 3:19:02.440 --> 3:19:04.760 force to it's like it's like pushing our tool cart 3:19:04.840 --> 3:19:11.000 across the room. It's like a fighter hydrants come out 3:19:11.080 --> 3:19:16.520 with walk now I wanted to I guess beers is 3:19:16.560 --> 3:19:18.800 an interesting way to go to go into the sort 3:19:18.840 --> 3:19:21.040 of the politics of what this actually looks like. Do 3:19:21.040 --> 3:19:23.960 you want to talk about and I know I briefly 3:19:23.959 --> 3:19:26.840 talked about this in an episode in The Liberalism a 3:19:26.879 --> 3:19:28.720 while back, but do you want to go into sort 3:19:28.760 --> 3:19:31.360 of more detail into what Beers was up to and 3:19:32.560 --> 3:19:38.200 the eventually failed attempt, because of military coup to try 3:19:38.240 --> 3:19:47.560 to implement like a cybernetic system for organizing essentially an economy. Yeah, sure, um. Yeah, 3:19:47.640 --> 3:19:56.280 So Stafford Beer was a UM management consultant UM he 3:19:56.520 --> 3:20:01.040 and a cyberneticition. He got his star sort of doing 3:20:01.680 --> 3:20:08.800 operations research UM, which is kind of a precursor to 3:20:08.840 --> 3:20:16.560 cybernetics UM that is kind of like interested in logistics 3:20:16.760 --> 3:20:23.560 and organizing systems UM in the British military UM in 3:20:23.840 --> 3:20:27.160 World War Two. And then he came out of that 3:20:27.720 --> 3:20:34.200 and became a corporate UH consultant for operations Research and 3:20:34.320 --> 3:20:42.959 Management UM. And so in working in the corporate world UM, 3:20:43.080 --> 3:20:48.040 he saw all of the things that were really screwed 3:20:48.160 --> 3:20:54.360 up with the status quo UM way of doing business 3:20:54.560 --> 3:20:59.080 and of organizing things, you know, the way that autocratic 3:20:59.200 --> 3:21:05.720 power of management creates all kinds of ridiculous problems, the 3:21:05.800 --> 3:21:10.560 way that managing organizations. According to org charts, which are 3:21:10.640 --> 3:21:15.000 there to assign blame more than anything else, creates all 3:21:15.120 --> 3:21:22.640 kinds of perversities, the way that organizations fail to adapt 3:21:22.640 --> 3:21:26.160 to their environments because they get into these kinds of 3:21:26.280 --> 3:21:31.120 strange neuroses. Um. And you know, just sort of going 3:21:31.160 --> 3:21:37.520 through all of that and more often than not being 3:21:37.640 --> 3:21:44.279 unable to intervene in an effective way uh to um 3:21:44.400 --> 3:21:48.760 address these problems and just sort of like seeing how 3:21:49.440 --> 3:21:55.359 these little instances of perverse corporate culture are indicative of 3:21:55.440 --> 3:22:00.920 the broader problems of our society as a whole and 3:22:01.120 --> 3:22:07.720 of capitalism, right. Um. And so you know, he had 3:22:07.760 --> 3:22:11.560 a basis from his time in India during the Second 3:22:11.600 --> 3:22:16.720 World War in uh kind of like tontra uh kind 3:22:16.720 --> 3:22:23.800 of like you know, Eastern or specifically Indian um, spirituality, yoga, 3:22:23.920 --> 3:22:26.440 all this kind of stuff. So he kind of had 3:22:26.440 --> 3:22:31.040 a cult countercultural side to his personality. UM. And he 3:22:31.080 --> 3:22:35.760 was always doing tinkering strange experiments with cybernetics. He wasn't 3:22:35.879 --> 3:22:40.480 just the straight lace corporate guy. Uh. But it was 3:22:40.520 --> 3:22:47.120 a combination of that sort of countercultural background with his 3:22:47.240 --> 3:22:52.840 growing frustration with corporate systems that led him to start 3:22:52.879 --> 3:22:56.720 to develop ideas about how things could be different and 3:22:56.800 --> 3:23:00.879 this kind of meshed up with the thoughts that were 3:23:00.879 --> 3:23:07.120 happening in Chile during the Chilean Revolution in the early seventies. 3:23:07.959 --> 3:23:12.160 Um So they reached out to him to come and 3:23:12.280 --> 3:23:16.440 help out with organizing their economy as they were undergoing 3:23:16.560 --> 3:23:22.440 this revolutionary process of trying to sort of throw off 3:23:22.560 --> 3:23:28.840 the shackles of imperialist dependency and create a society that 3:23:29.000 --> 3:23:34.640 was focused on the flourishing of workers, h end of 3:23:34.760 --> 3:23:37.039 society as a whole, as opposed to one that was 3:23:37.080 --> 3:23:41.080 based on sort of you know, resource extraction where everything 3:23:41.120 --> 3:23:45.640 flows to the top. Yeah, you want to explain some 3:23:45.760 --> 3:23:50.760 more about how that went well? So, um yeah, it 3:23:51.480 --> 3:23:53.160 it went well and then it went badly, I guess. 3:23:53.280 --> 3:23:56.240 Um But from from from the reading we've done and 3:23:56.280 --> 3:24:00.120 from our research, it seems like if basically, if the 3:24:00.720 --> 3:24:03.800 if the US hadn't sent in the fascists to kill 3:24:03.879 --> 3:24:06.120 them all, um this this would have worked. Like it 3:24:06.280 --> 3:24:08.760 was working, and it was that the project was actually 3:24:08.760 --> 3:24:12.200 going pretty well. We explained briefly what like I think 3:24:12.160 --> 3:24:15.200 it becomes it's called product cybersyme, But what exactly is 3:24:15.360 --> 3:24:19.600 like what was it doing? So? Um so, like Beer's 3:24:19.640 --> 3:24:22.160 big kind of innovation is what we call the viable 3:24:22.200 --> 3:24:26.840 system model or VSM, and it's a model that's, um 3:24:26.920 --> 3:24:29.680 it's a model for these like autonomous social systems that 3:24:29.840 --> 3:24:32.360 is kind of taking It's not I wouldn't say it's 3:24:32.440 --> 3:24:34.920 entirely based on like the structure of the human body, 3:24:34.920 --> 3:24:37.199 but it's like taking a lot of lessons from biology 3:24:37.200 --> 3:24:41.880 and neurology and neuroscience and and cybernetics and just kind 3:24:41.879 --> 3:24:45.000 of meshing them all together. Um. So, basically, like it's 3:24:45.040 --> 3:24:47.720 like if your body is basically a bunch of autonomous 3:24:47.800 --> 3:24:49.640 organs that all take care of their own business, plus 3:24:49.680 --> 3:24:53.200 a nervous system that synchronizes them and unifies them into 3:24:53.240 --> 3:24:55.880 a workable hole, then you can kind of see the 3:24:55.920 --> 3:24:59.600 whole system as having this kind of mixture of vertical 3:24:59.680 --> 3:25:02.720 and horror suntal aspects. Like on the one hand, it 3:25:02.720 --> 3:25:06.440 has this horizontal aspect where the autonomous like system one 3:25:06.560 --> 3:25:09.760 units are are well autonomous, more or less like the 3:25:10.040 --> 3:25:11.960 harsh takes harsh takes care of its own thing. The 3:25:12.040 --> 3:25:13.760 lungs take care of their own thing. But then the 3:25:13.800 --> 3:25:18.360 nervous system meshes them together in layers so that it 3:25:18.440 --> 3:25:22.160 can say, oh, hold on too much oxygen dial it 3:25:22.240 --> 3:25:24.960 down a bit, and then the organs responds dynamically to 3:25:24.959 --> 3:25:27.520 those those signals, right, So it's kind of like up 3:25:27.560 --> 3:25:30.360 down feedback loops, right where then the lower levels of 3:25:30.360 --> 3:25:33.080 the system are the smart bits that are doing all 3:25:33.080 --> 3:25:37.440 the important work. But there's this supporting infrastructure of the 3:25:37.480 --> 3:25:40.440 nervous system in the brain that unifies the whole thing 3:25:40.440 --> 3:25:44.039 and keeps it all on the rails. Um So, and 3:25:44.480 --> 3:25:46.680 importantly it's a kind of recursive model. So like a 3:25:46.959 --> 3:25:50.640 human being is an autonomous unit, and then that it's 3:25:50.760 --> 3:25:53.240 that unit is composed of more autonomous units, like the 3:25:53.320 --> 3:25:55.640 organs and the muscles, and then each of those is 3:25:55.680 --> 3:25:58.880 composed of cells which are autonomous units, and then you know, 3:25:58.920 --> 3:26:01.400 so on. But like that latter goes upwards as well, 3:26:01.440 --> 3:26:04.640 so that like a team is an autonomous unit composed 3:26:04.640 --> 3:26:08.480 of human beings, a firm, or like a department, is 3:26:08.520 --> 3:26:12.240 a autonomous unit composed of teams. A firm is composed 3:26:12.240 --> 3:26:16.080 of departments, like a secretor is composed of firms. And 3:26:16.120 --> 3:26:20.920 it's the same kind of structure at each layer. Um. 3:26:20.959 --> 3:26:24.279 So that the kind of upside there is that like, um, 3:26:24.320 --> 3:26:26.760 you don't like you kind of have a unit fairly 3:26:27.000 --> 3:26:29.480 unifying like set of principles and like a science for 3:26:29.560 --> 3:26:34.119 doing this kind of like coordination of autonomous units at 3:26:34.160 --> 3:26:37.160 every level, at every every layer of society. So like 3:26:37.800 --> 3:26:40.560 in principle, the sort of like the serbonetic principles that 3:26:40.560 --> 3:26:45.400 get applied to cohering members of a team are the 3:26:45.440 --> 3:26:47.800 same storty of principles that get applied to like sectors 3:26:47.800 --> 3:26:51.440 in an economy. Um, with the same kind of you know, 3:26:51.680 --> 3:26:55.400 bottom up kind of feedback online as well. Um. So 3:26:56.480 --> 3:27:00.320 Stafford was invited to Chile to by the in a 3:27:00.400 --> 3:27:04.119 government in so that that was like nineteen seventy, right, Um, 3:27:04.160 --> 3:27:06.840 that that that election happened. So he arrived in late 3:27:06.879 --> 3:27:13.080 nineteen seventy I think, Um, I mean certain on the timeline, 3:27:13.120 --> 3:27:15.480 but we're looking at those those first few years of 3:27:15.520 --> 3:27:18.600 the seventies as as the time when this is happening. Yeah, yeah, 3:27:18.600 --> 3:27:21.959 I d elected in set in nicktey seventy. Yeah, so 3:27:22.000 --> 3:27:23.960 it's towards the end of that year that he's he's 3:27:23.959 --> 3:27:26.920 invited and he's basically kind of given the task of like, hey, 3:27:27.040 --> 3:27:29.680 do all this stuff but with this entire economy, and 3:27:29.720 --> 3:27:33.480 he's like, yeah, sure, cool, Um, so puts together projects 3:27:33.480 --> 3:27:36.640 cybersen UM and there's kind of long story there of 3:27:36.680 --> 3:27:38.720 like and then building out this kind of infrastructure and 3:27:38.720 --> 3:27:43.200 like it's it's all highly experimental UM and highly tensive. 3:27:43.320 --> 3:27:45.560 Like they one of the big problems they run into 3:27:45.640 --> 3:27:47.080 is that like they don't have very much in the 3:27:47.080 --> 3:27:50.959 way of like hardcare, especially because they're under embargo. So 3:27:51.000 --> 3:27:53.959 they had like, um a pretty what at the time 3:27:54.000 --> 3:27:56.600 was a pretty crafty old mainframe that they ran the 3:27:56.680 --> 3:28:01.000 around the software on UM. But like step step one 3:28:01.040 --> 3:28:04.800 was like UM installing this like huge communications network amongst 3:28:04.840 --> 3:28:07.040 all the factories and UM like setting up like the 3:28:07.080 --> 3:28:09.480 workers committees and stuff. Would feed information into it and 3:28:09.520 --> 3:28:12.440 it would kind of again this like feedback thing where 3:28:12.760 --> 3:28:16.640 you kind of take signals from the economy, integrate them, 3:28:16.640 --> 3:28:19.800 and then go, oh, you're producing too much steel, Route 3:28:19.840 --> 3:28:22.480 some of your product over to this this factory and 3:28:22.520 --> 3:28:24.560 it will be better used there. And then you know, 3:28:24.800 --> 3:28:26.600 you guys over there turn up this dial, you turn 3:28:26.640 --> 3:28:30.480 them down this dial. So and then if that plan 3:28:30.600 --> 3:28:32.879 doesn't quite work out, then you've got another layer of 3:28:32.879 --> 3:28:36.080 feedback tomorrow to say, Okay, that plan didn't quite work, 3:28:36.080 --> 3:28:40.000 here's an adjusted plan. So it's it's just like both 3:28:40.040 --> 3:28:42.560 bottom up and top down sort of loop of feedback. 3:28:42.680 --> 3:28:46.160 That's like, I think that the phrase pickering is is 3:28:46.200 --> 3:28:51.840 reciprocal adaptation where the economy and its firms and its 3:28:51.840 --> 3:28:53.720 workers are all kind of adapting to each other in 3:28:53.760 --> 3:28:55.400 real time in a kind of in a in a 3:28:55.760 --> 3:29:03.640 full system. UM. Uh, yes, no, that I mean, that's 3:29:03.680 --> 3:29:08.360 that's essentially what Cyberson was. It was a system designed 3:29:08.600 --> 3:29:19.240 too largely, I think, at first supplement the market, although 3:29:20.560 --> 3:29:24.520 Beer later realizes that like, actually, if you have a 3:29:24.560 --> 3:29:31.000 good system of this kind, you probably don't need a market. Um. 3:29:31.080 --> 3:29:36.080 But essentially it was like, Okay, our economy has been 3:29:36.240 --> 3:29:43.320 one that has been built around dependence too, uh, you know, 3:29:43.520 --> 3:29:47.160 especially the United States, and it's been organized in that way, 3:29:47.200 --> 3:29:51.480 and we need to reorganize the economy both to promote 3:29:51.480 --> 3:29:54.360 the well being of the workers, the autonomy of the workers, 3:29:55.080 --> 3:29:58.600 realized the ideals of socialism in that way, and also 3:29:58.760 --> 3:30:03.440 to create a system that is less dependent on those 3:30:03.440 --> 3:30:09.920 existing structures of imperialism. And so having this reciprocal adaptation UM, 3:30:09.959 --> 3:30:14.720 having systems in place to connect things that were previously 3:30:14.879 --> 3:30:18.880 disconnected would allow you to move in that way of 3:30:18.920 --> 3:30:23.920 increasing autonomy and increasing freedom. UM. And that was generally 3:30:23.959 --> 3:30:29.959 the idea of cyber sin Um. Yes, and there was 3:30:30.000 --> 3:30:33.160 something very interesting like when we were reading the reissue 3:30:33.320 --> 3:30:35.320 of his book Brain of the Firm, where he has 3:30:35.320 --> 3:30:38.560 a section the end that that documents this whole experience 3:30:38.560 --> 3:30:42.600 in chile Um, there's a really interesting parents where towards 3:30:42.640 --> 3:30:44.160 the end of it he's like, and this is like 3:30:44.840 --> 3:30:48.120 getting up towards the coupe where he's like, um, he 3:30:48.200 --> 3:30:50.920 and the other cyber Sinem operatives, like the people are 3:30:50.920 --> 3:30:53.560 putting this together, realize that like the workers and link 3:30:53.600 --> 3:30:56.680 people in towns are are like just on their own, 3:30:56.760 --> 3:30:59.800 just like using this stuff and these kind of principles 3:30:59.800 --> 3:31:04.640 to just like abolish the value form basically like but 3:31:05.280 --> 3:31:09.199 notably without the involvement from above, like as in Beer 3:31:09.240 --> 3:31:12.720 and Company, stumble upon this just happening where they're like, 3:31:12.760 --> 3:31:14.960 oh my god, they're just they're just dismantling the market, 3:31:15.040 --> 3:31:17.600 and it's like it's all just kind of happening, and 3:31:17.680 --> 3:31:20.640 that's there was something really wonderful to that then, Like 3:31:21.440 --> 3:31:24.280 it it indicated like there was there really wants something 3:31:24.320 --> 3:31:29.120 to it that like you could like as in people working, 3:31:29.160 --> 3:31:32.480 people could use these tools and this like new way 3:31:32.520 --> 3:31:38.480 of organizing themselves. Two just like liquidate market relations and 3:31:38.600 --> 3:31:42.200 wage relations like spun spontaneously. But it's it's a spontaneity 3:31:42.280 --> 3:31:46.279 that's that's not really it. It's it feels very different 3:31:46.280 --> 3:31:49.040 from the kind of spontaneity you often get in it, 3:31:49.240 --> 3:31:51.760 like the way leftist sort of anarchists talk about it often, 3:31:51.920 --> 3:31:54.440 like the kind of spontaneity is like a magical sort 3:31:54.440 --> 3:31:56.160 of thing, which is like where freedom just arrives from 3:31:56.160 --> 3:31:59.240 out of nowhere. But this this was like installing infrastructure 3:31:59.240 --> 3:32:01.400 to enable freedom and then it actually kind of happening 3:32:01.760 --> 3:32:04.879 until the fascists showed up. You know. Yeah, what I 3:32:04.879 --> 3:32:08.240 think is really interesting about it is that so you know, 3:32:08.520 --> 3:32:10.039 you have you have like you have the sort of 3:32:10.040 --> 3:32:12.360 central control center from which a lot of stuff is 3:32:12.400 --> 3:32:15.960 being run. But you know, yeah, it's it's it's it's 3:32:16.000 --> 3:32:18.520 it's a weird system because it's trying to link together 3:32:19.959 --> 3:32:22.560 like a lot of different kinds of firms. Like you 3:32:22.600 --> 3:32:24.360 have something saying in private firms, but you have a 3:32:24.400 --> 3:32:25.800 lot of you have a lot of state run firms. 3:32:25.800 --> 3:32:28.280 You also have firms that throughout this whole process, people 3:32:28.320 --> 3:32:31.320 like workers just taking over factories, they're setting up these 3:32:31.360 --> 3:32:34.280 sort of like call them industrial cordons. I think I'm 3:32:34.400 --> 3:32:38.400 remembering way Spanish rights, Like yeah, they they you know, 3:32:38.440 --> 3:32:40.400 they start setting up their own institutions, and it's it's 3:32:40.440 --> 3:32:43.160 this becomes this way is sort of like networking these 3:32:43.160 --> 3:32:46.320 groups together. And the thing that's the other thing is 3:32:46.360 --> 3:32:47.920 it's interesting is you know, so you have you have 3:32:47.959 --> 3:32:50.560 them on the one hand, like just getting rid of 3:32:50.560 --> 3:32:52.480 markets and going like okay, well we can just coordinate 3:32:53.160 --> 3:32:56.000 production through this and like not have markets. And then 3:32:56.040 --> 3:32:58.480 the second thing they do is it's the freedom immediately 3:32:58.480 --> 3:33:01.320 becomes political in in the sense that like, yeah, like 3:33:01.360 --> 3:33:03.039 one of one of the things they do they there 3:33:03.080 --> 3:33:04.680 that that's what's going on in this period is that 3:33:04.720 --> 3:33:08.920 and there's Chile has a very very right wing like 3:33:09.680 --> 3:33:11.800 it's basically like the even today, it's like it's like 3:33:11.920 --> 3:33:14.000 really like one of the only like union like huge 3:33:14.040 --> 3:33:16.240 unions left in Chile is is truckers unions. And those 3:33:16.240 --> 3:33:19.120 guys are extremely right wing. There in this period of 3:33:19.160 --> 3:33:21.520 being backed by the CIA, they're being trained by f 3:33:21.640 --> 3:33:24.800 l c I O as I say, like every episode, 3:33:25.640 --> 3:33:29.000 but like yeah, and and they're you know, they're intentionally 3:33:29.080 --> 3:33:31.560 doing strikes trying to oversaw the government by blocking production, 3:33:31.680 --> 3:33:35.280 and you know, like the workers are like, Okay, hold on, 3:33:35.320 --> 3:33:38.680 we can just use this symenetic system to figure out 3:33:38.720 --> 3:33:41.800 where these blocks are, figure out where materials need to 3:33:41.840 --> 3:33:43.959 move through, and we can just you know, we can 3:33:44.000 --> 3:33:46.640 just stop the kind of revolution. We can just sort 3:33:46.640 --> 3:33:49.039 of like we can we can just we can just 3:33:49.080 --> 3:33:51.760 fight our way through it. And and it's interesting, is 3:33:51.800 --> 3:33:54.880 like this happens, and so then that that like the 3:33:55.000 --> 3:33:57.680 the original plan of using sort of of using these 3:33:57.720 --> 3:34:00.360 truckers is like the sort of right wing like the 3:34:00.360 --> 3:34:03.480 first attempt fails, and once that fails, it's like they 3:34:03.480 --> 3:34:06.440 have to go to the military m and the coup 3:34:06.480 --> 3:34:10.400 eventually works. It's it's hard to it's hard to resist 3:34:10.440 --> 3:34:13.400 a coup outright, isn't it. Um? Yeah, Yeah. The thing 3:34:13.440 --> 3:34:15.640 with the trucker strike is not like yeah, it's you 3:34:15.640 --> 3:34:17.720 can very well imagine like the CIA and stuff going 3:34:17.720 --> 3:34:19.200 into it thinking about that this is what we'll do. 3:34:19.280 --> 3:34:22.080 That's right, this will sell it up, but not realizing 3:34:22.120 --> 3:34:25.520 that the workers actually had in their hands a like 3:34:26.400 --> 3:34:30.080 vastly more sophisticated system for out maneuvering them. Yeah, and 3:34:30.280 --> 3:34:33.040 that system works like a charm, like like clockwork, just 3:34:33.120 --> 3:34:35.800 like and even like you read the accounts from this thing, 3:34:35.840 --> 3:34:39.040 like both in eating Medina's cybernetic revelation areas and in 3:34:39.120 --> 3:34:41.480 Beer's on account, and there's like the sense that was 3:34:41.520 --> 3:34:43.760 actually kind of spooky and weird. But I like even 3:34:43.760 --> 3:34:46.280 the people involved didn't quite expected to work out that way, 3:34:46.320 --> 3:34:48.800 and that like they were surprised at how effective it is, 3:34:49.160 --> 3:34:51.240 but that it gets back to the core of cyberneticsent like, 3:34:52.000 --> 3:34:55.720 feedback is weirdly effective at getting things done. You know, 3:34:55.760 --> 3:34:59.280 these like highly tuned feedback systems, they give you a 3:34:59.320 --> 3:35:03.280 lot of to maneuver this complex you know. Yeah, And 3:35:03.520 --> 3:35:07.160 I think in some sense, like this is like people 3:35:07.200 --> 3:35:08.720 talk a lot about Chile is sort of like the 3:35:08.760 --> 3:35:11.600 sort of foreclosed future of like an electoral demarcratic socialism, 3:35:11.640 --> 3:35:13.680 But like, I don't think that was the potential of 3:35:13.720 --> 3:35:17.080 the moment. The potential of the moment was this. And 3:35:17.200 --> 3:35:20.200 it's interesting to me that well because Beers kind of 3:35:20.240 --> 3:35:25.680 traces out a political history that never quite happened, which 3:35:25.720 --> 3:35:27.520 is so okay. One of the one of the sort 3:35:27.520 --> 3:35:30.400 of big political trends over the course of the twenty 3:35:30.480 --> 3:35:32.840 century is you have all these people who were sort 3:35:32.879 --> 3:35:36.000 of like they they basically got turned into planning bureaucrats 3:35:36.080 --> 3:35:38.640 Dree in June World War two, because every government basically 3:35:38.640 --> 3:35:41.960 turns into a giant planning engine, and then you know, 3:35:42.080 --> 3:35:43.480 some of them go into some of them, you know, 3:35:43.560 --> 3:35:46.000 essentially stay on in the government doing planning stuff. Beers 3:35:46.120 --> 3:35:48.000 like goes into the corporate world, and the corporations are 3:35:48.040 --> 3:35:50.039 also you know, they start doing they also start doing 3:35:50.040 --> 3:35:54.039 this planning stuff, and you know, but Beers is interesting 3:35:54.080 --> 3:35:57.160 because he he pivots, like he pivots in a direction 3:35:57.640 --> 3:36:02.240 that the world doesn't, which is he pivots towards Okay, 3:36:02.280 --> 3:36:05.720 the solution to sort of you know, the kind of 3:36:05.720 --> 3:36:10.160 like decay of these like authoritarian planning systems, whether whether 3:36:10.200 --> 3:36:12.000 they be like the corporate versions of it or the 3:36:12.040 --> 3:36:17.440 sort of like state administered like total economic planning from 3:36:17.440 --> 3:36:19.800 the top down versions is oh well, okay, we need 3:36:19.840 --> 3:36:24.680 to have planning from the bottom up and distributed. Yeah. Yeah. 3:36:24.760 --> 3:36:28.920 And he, like everyone involved with Iverson gets murdered. The 3:36:29.000 --> 3:36:31.279 only reason Beer survives because he wasn't in the country. 3:36:31.800 --> 3:36:35.520 And it's it's just really interesting, like like it's kind 3:36:35.520 --> 3:36:39.840 of not a story. Everybody got murdered, but some of 3:36:39.879 --> 3:36:43.880 them did, and some of them were in exile. Uh, 3:36:44.160 --> 3:36:46.200 some of them were imprisoned. Yeah, it was, it was, 3:36:46.280 --> 3:36:48.720 it was, you know, it was not a good time. 3:36:48.840 --> 3:36:51.440 Beer got out early and he knew things that we're 3:36:51.440 --> 3:36:54.120 getting we're getting bad, and everybody around him knew things 3:36:54.160 --> 3:36:57.360 were getting bad. Um. Yeah, like he was on him. 3:36:57.400 --> 3:36:58.840 He was on a kind of I guess, like it's 3:36:58.879 --> 3:37:01.840 almost adic mission to like try and get some of 3:37:01.840 --> 3:37:03.720 the blockade stuff. Like he was trying to. I think 3:37:03.720 --> 3:37:05.720 he was trying to flog like a container ship full 3:37:05.720 --> 3:37:08.880 of iron or something. You know, he was shopping shopping 3:37:08.879 --> 3:37:10.440 it around to try and trying to help out the 3:37:10.480 --> 3:37:15.160 likely appine to the world. That's what it was. Yeah. 3:37:15.800 --> 3:37:20.280 But um, yeah, it's um hold on, I had a 3:37:20.320 --> 3:37:23.520 thought there. Um. And then like after afterwards, um, like 3:37:23.560 --> 3:37:25.400 Beer spent a fair bit as time like trying to 3:37:25.480 --> 3:37:27.920 get his his comrades out of out of Chile and 3:37:27.920 --> 3:37:30.280 get them out of prison and got the got them 3:37:30.280 --> 3:37:35.959 resettled in um in the UK and so on America 3:37:36.040 --> 3:37:43.800 as well. Um. But yeah, I think that Um, this 3:37:44.480 --> 3:37:48.400 is like that's a very interesting point about the the 3:37:48.720 --> 3:37:51.240 you know, the sort of the real value of this 3:37:51.320 --> 3:38:00.440 moment being that movement towards autonomy, that that reorganization of society, 3:38:00.640 --> 3:38:08.360 not towards UH neoliberal engineering of markets and uh sort 3:38:08.400 --> 3:38:14.520 of reinforcement of private dictatorships, um, but towards a kind 3:38:14.560 --> 3:38:19.119 of like holistic control system that is still informed by 3:38:19.440 --> 3:38:22.880 you know, the principles of autonomy and UH and and 3:38:22.879 --> 3:38:28.640 and science. UM. It's it's definitely like an answer to 3:38:28.760 --> 3:38:34.360 the crisis of the seventies which was not taken up. 3:38:34.440 --> 3:38:37.200 And in that sense it is a foreclosed future, but 3:38:37.280 --> 3:38:40.040 of course one that we can take lessons from now. Yeah, 3:38:40.320 --> 3:38:42.879 I think there's something else that's very interesting me about this, 3:38:43.000 --> 3:38:48.240 because you know, if if you look at how like 3:38:48.280 --> 3:38:50.240 if you look at how the socialist block sort of 3:38:50.600 --> 3:38:53.959 responds to the crisis and seventies, and you know, they're 3:38:54.000 --> 3:38:57.880 sort of decaying the eighties, like they have this option 3:38:58.000 --> 3:39:00.360 available to them, right they had they had They have 3:39:00.440 --> 3:39:01.520 made a lot of plays, they have a lot they 3:39:01.520 --> 3:39:03.440 have a lot better technology than with the lands are 3:39:03.520 --> 3:39:08.000 using that have more resources, and every single one of 3:39:08.040 --> 3:39:12.519 them goes no and instead just sort of like transitions, 3:39:12.560 --> 3:39:15.840 you know, instead of I think it has to do 3:39:15.959 --> 3:39:19.560 with there there there's a line this this is this 3:39:19.640 --> 3:39:23.520 is like slightly before this, there's a line in UM 3:39:23.879 --> 3:39:25.959 a debate Maw and Joe and Li are having in 3:39:26.000 --> 3:39:28.640 I think it's seven. This is like the peak of 3:39:29.879 --> 3:39:31.800 the sort of workers led part of the culture revolution, 3:39:31.879 --> 3:39:35.480 like the works have taken Shanghai, and Maw and Joe 3:39:35.480 --> 3:39:39.119 and I are talking and they're they're trying to figure out, 3:39:39.160 --> 3:39:42.520 like what are they gonna do? You know, they they've 3:39:42.560 --> 3:39:46.720 set off this force. It's now become uncontrollable. And there's 3:39:46.720 --> 3:39:49.520 there's this line where they're talking about, Okay, well, if 3:39:49.560 --> 3:39:50.960 if we give if you give them, if you give 3:39:51.000 --> 3:39:54.920 them a commune, they have to have free elections, and 3:39:55.200 --> 3:39:57.920 Joe and La is like, well that would be anarchism. 3:39:57.959 --> 3:39:59.800 And then they're just like, oh god, we can't do that, 3:39:59.840 --> 3:40:01.840 and they never do in the end, you know that 3:40:01.920 --> 3:40:03.600 the end result of this whole sort of that whole 3:40:03.600 --> 3:40:06.600 sort of processes that trying to like instead of doing, 3:40:07.520 --> 3:40:12.400 instead of sort of like devolving any level of control 3:40:12.480 --> 3:40:16.480 down to like any of the workers who are doing things, 3:40:16.520 --> 3:40:18.240 they're like, Okay, well we'll just we'll just you know, 3:40:18.280 --> 3:40:20.560 we'll we'll we'll do capitalism instead. Well, well you will, 3:40:20.680 --> 3:40:25.200 you know, we'll create markets will sort of like maintain 3:40:25.240 --> 3:40:32.280 our firm structure, but you know, the party into it. Yeah, yeah, 3:40:32.320 --> 3:40:34.480 And it's it's this, it's it's a very interesting thing 3:40:34.520 --> 3:40:37.280 to me too, because like there have been other like 3:40:38.200 --> 3:40:40.720 you know, like they're like lots of socialist parties of 3:40:40.800 --> 3:40:44.720 sort of various like degrees of radical nous have come 3:40:44.760 --> 3:40:49.720 to power like since nineteen seventy three, and to my knowledge, 3:40:49.800 --> 3:40:51.680 not a single one of them has ever picked any 3:40:51.680 --> 3:40:54.240 of this stuff back up, like even even you know, 3:40:54.320 --> 3:40:57.879 like like the most radical sort of like like you know, 3:40:57.959 --> 3:41:00.920 like like like early Chavas never like touches this, like 3:41:01.000 --> 3:41:04.199 even like I don't like I I don't I don't 3:41:04.320 --> 3:41:08.680 think like I don't think the easy Lends ever done it, 3:41:08.800 --> 3:41:11.400 Like I mean, they have petological issues there, but like 3:41:11.959 --> 3:41:16.279 it's it's it's it's interesting to me that like basically 3:41:16.520 --> 3:41:20.480 no one who's ever taken power since has ever attempted 3:41:20.520 --> 3:41:24.680 it again. H which again is changed because this is 3:41:24.800 --> 3:41:27.840 you know, one of one of the sort of like 3:41:28.080 --> 3:41:30.440 this you would think this is like this is at 3:41:30.520 --> 3:41:35.640 least a potential solution to sort of this this this 3:41:35.640 --> 3:41:38.320 this problem of the stagnation and sort of collapse of 3:41:38.560 --> 3:41:41.200 the old sort of adults. There's a plenty of economies, 3:41:41.240 --> 3:41:44.400 but no one takes it up. And I'm interested to 3:41:44.400 --> 3:41:47.080 think what you too think about that, like why this 3:41:47.120 --> 3:41:50.800 doesn't happen? Yeah, there's a I think there's an interesting 3:41:50.840 --> 3:41:53.960 dimension of Beer's work in Chile that kind of I 3:41:54.000 --> 3:42:00.160 think um might provide some answers to that, which is that. Know, 3:42:00.320 --> 3:42:04.720 he he was in charge of setting up Cyberson, and 3:42:04.840 --> 3:42:14.040 Cyberson was kind of a system for optimizing the economy, 3:42:14.400 --> 3:42:19.920 but he had other concerns and other briefs that he 3:42:20.000 --> 3:42:23.000 was working on at the same time. And what he 3:42:23.080 --> 3:42:29.440 came to realize was that there was a layer of 3:42:31.120 --> 3:42:37.760 management and experts in the organization of the economy that 3:42:37.959 --> 3:42:43.439 were happy enough to sort of work on a Cyberson 3:42:43.680 --> 3:42:50.440 that was designed to improve production numbers, but they had 3:42:50.640 --> 3:42:56.640 real resistance to the idea of worker autonomy because of 3:42:56.760 --> 3:43:02.240 the because of of of wanting to maintain their their 3:43:02.320 --> 3:43:08.560 job privileges, and because of the prejudices of their their habitats. 3:43:08.600 --> 3:43:10.600 I guess you could say that what they learned when 3:43:10.640 --> 3:43:13.840 they were educated as engineers or managers or whatever, and 3:43:14.320 --> 3:43:16.640 you know, where the people who know things the workers 3:43:16.680 --> 3:43:19.880 don't know things, they shouldn't be in charge that kind 3:43:19.879 --> 3:43:23.720 of thing. And so he starts to he starts to 3:43:23.840 --> 3:43:29.080 realize that in order to really make cybersen effective as 3:43:29.120 --> 3:43:33.640 an engine for autonomy, what needs to happen is that um, 3:43:34.160 --> 3:43:37.480 sort of what you are describing with the Shanghai commune Uh, 3:43:38.400 --> 3:43:46.400 the the workers need to learn the cybernetic principles themselves 3:43:46.959 --> 3:43:54.039 and implement them through autonomous action. UM. And so he 3:43:54.080 --> 3:43:56.880 starts to try to kind of like right up, like 3:43:57.360 --> 3:44:01.640 right pamphlets that can be distributed to the workers so 3:44:01.720 --> 3:44:07.040 that the information that he has as theory is not 3:44:07.320 --> 3:44:12.320 being filtered through a bureaucracy, but is instead, like you know, 3:44:12.560 --> 3:44:18.120 involved in an educational process of self mode mobilization among 3:44:18.160 --> 3:44:24.120 the workers. UM. And so you know this really uh 3:44:24.440 --> 3:44:27.520 doesn't mean that expert knowledge is irrelevant, but it does 3:44:27.600 --> 3:44:34.760 mean that it does imply threatening the social privileges of 3:44:34.840 --> 3:44:41.360 management and expert knowledge, because in Beer's conception of management, 3:44:41.959 --> 3:44:45.440 management is something that is done by anyone who has 3:44:45.520 --> 3:44:51.120 the power to affect an organization or change and organization. 3:44:51.600 --> 3:44:54.560 So if the workers are able to change their organizations, 3:44:54.600 --> 3:45:00.359 they are also managers. That's not something exclusive to experts. 3:45:00.400 --> 3:45:03.240 For for Beer, management is a function. It's not a person. 3:45:03.879 --> 3:45:07.360 Right in Beer's ideal world, like management would just be 3:45:08.160 --> 3:45:11.720 these like decision nodes that emerge among among workers. I 3:45:11.760 --> 3:45:14.720 can like the management manager would never be a person. 3:45:15.280 --> 3:45:18.519 A manager would be like a kind of structural information 3:45:18.560 --> 3:45:25.800 processing like, um, thing that happens among people. Um. Yeah yeah. 3:45:26.480 --> 3:45:28.880 And so like when you see in for example, the 3:45:29.000 --> 3:45:34.560 USS are the option of creating a planning network, a 3:45:34.600 --> 3:45:43.160 computerized telecommunications planning network throughout the whole union. Um, it's 3:45:43.240 --> 3:45:47.879 basically shot down for two reasons. One, it would be 3:45:48.000 --> 3:45:50.560 very very expensive for them to develop. It would be 3:45:51.120 --> 3:45:55.080 on the order of of doing you know, their nuclear 3:45:55.120 --> 3:46:01.280 weapons development, perhaps more expensive than that. Uh. And two 3:46:02.280 --> 3:46:11.080 it is simply at odds with the system of like planning, 3:46:12.040 --> 3:46:15.320 the command economy that had that had grown up in 3:46:15.360 --> 3:46:19.840 the wake of the revolution. Right, it's simply at odds 3:46:19.840 --> 3:46:23.800 with the power of all of the factory managers, the planners, 3:46:23.840 --> 3:46:26.720 all that kind of stuff. It just kind of makes 3:46:27.640 --> 3:46:31.280 it threatens their identity and it threatens their position of power. 3:46:31.720 --> 3:46:35.280 And so I think that when you look at the 3:46:35.360 --> 3:46:39.640 socialist countries and why they didn't adopt this system, I 3:46:39.680 --> 3:46:42.240 think it's because they it would require the people in 3:46:42.320 --> 3:46:49.320 power to really rethink their entire role and identity as 3:46:49.480 --> 3:46:54.960 members of society. Um. Yeah, And then it's kind of 3:46:55.280 --> 3:46:57.960 there's a treadful irony really in that link. It's it's 3:46:57.959 --> 3:47:01.279 Stafford me or somebody who comes out of like bourgeois 3:47:01.320 --> 3:47:04.760 like management stuff, um and is deep in the pocket 3:47:04.800 --> 3:47:09.200 for that. He's the one who actually sincerely pursues the 3:47:09.240 --> 3:47:13.400 most radical project in like socialist history that we've ever seen, 3:47:13.879 --> 3:47:16.640 vastly more radical in its intent, and it's like kind 3:47:16.640 --> 3:47:18.959 of it's the beginnings of its impact than anything any 3:47:19.040 --> 3:47:21.960 Leninist has ever done. And it's basically because he actually 3:47:22.040 --> 3:47:27.080 did want real freedom and autonomy for working people, and 3:47:27.240 --> 3:47:29.879 your average leniness just doesn't, you know, like again, like 3:47:29.920 --> 3:47:31.520 to go back to the example from earlier, right that 3:47:31.600 --> 3:47:36.080 like when when under pressure, they will they'll do capitalism 3:47:36.120 --> 3:47:40.760 before they'll do anything that even resembles um, autonomy for workers, 3:47:41.040 --> 3:47:43.800 they will take that path rather than doing the right thing. 3:47:44.280 --> 3:47:46.280 You know. That does speak to the character of the thing, 3:47:46.320 --> 3:47:49.000 and it's it's it's it's it's it's that class interest 3:47:49.440 --> 3:47:51.879 basically of those kind of functionaries, right, Like, And the 3:47:51.920 --> 3:47:54.120 thing that makes Beery different is that he sincerely actually 3:47:54.120 --> 3:47:57.720 wanted to do it, you know, and the worker's autonomy 3:47:57.720 --> 3:48:00.240 thing wasn't just a smoke screen for him, you know. Yeah, 3:48:00.280 --> 3:48:02.480 And when when he starts to come up with these 3:48:02.520 --> 3:48:05.959 ideas of like thinking like, okay, like an economic planning 3:48:06.000 --> 3:48:09.760 system is not adequate, we need to go beyond that 3:48:09.959 --> 3:48:14.720 to thinking about the constitution of the social body, he 3:48:14.720 --> 3:48:20.640 he quickly finds that he's being marginalized within those circles 3:48:20.680 --> 3:48:25.240 of planners in the Chilean government because this is not 3:48:25.480 --> 3:48:30.720 something that they are enthusiastic about. They're actually quite concerned 3:48:30.760 --> 3:48:33.760 about this idea. Even if I end would be, you know, 3:48:33.840 --> 3:48:37.000 all for it, right, because he was he was very 3:48:37.040 --> 3:48:42.680 sincere about his interest in an autonomy, UM, there were 3:48:42.720 --> 3:48:46.160 still many people around beer who did not particularly like 3:48:46.320 --> 3:48:51.400 the idea. UM. Yeah, absolutely. And I think if we 3:48:51.480 --> 3:48:54.800 look at it, you know, in terms of why hasn't 3:48:54.800 --> 3:48:59.280 it happened since then, in in all of these intervening decades, 3:48:59.840 --> 3:49:05.480 I think you also have to look at, um the 3:49:05.520 --> 3:49:09.760 international system and the way that countries figure into it, 3:49:09.880 --> 3:49:16.040 because we have all of these um neoliberal structures of 3:49:16.080 --> 3:49:20.200 management and organization that were created in the eighties and 3:49:20.320 --> 3:49:26.160 nineties and early odds uh that socialist government has to 3:49:26.400 --> 3:49:31.360 contend with if they are to embark on a program 3:49:31.440 --> 3:49:35.280 like this, which isn't to say it's impossible, but what 3:49:35.320 --> 3:49:39.040 it does mean is that there are all these sort 3:49:39.120 --> 3:49:46.880 of um, highly complex regulatory and organizational structures that have 3:49:47.200 --> 3:49:52.480 roots deep in our societies right now, and it is 3:49:52.520 --> 3:49:57.120 the path of least resistance to not attempt to engage 3:49:57.160 --> 3:50:01.600 in a in in uh an effort to kind of 3:50:01.920 --> 3:50:05.600 you know, let the market atrophy as you develop an 3:50:05.600 --> 3:50:10.600 alternative structure for social organization, um, because all of these 3:50:10.600 --> 3:50:12.880 structures are there and you have to kind of like 3:50:13.080 --> 3:50:17.120 root them out and replace them with something new, as 3:50:17.160 --> 3:50:21.640 opposed to having all these ready mades of what's already there, 3:50:22.280 --> 3:50:30.120 the market centered solutions, the the the kind of autocratic solutions, um, 3:50:30.160 --> 3:50:33.280 you know, all of the management systems that have been 3:50:33.360 --> 3:50:37.320 developed with an autocracy in mind instead of something that 3:50:37.440 --> 3:50:41.400 is truly democratic and uh kind of self just dating 3:50:41.960 --> 3:50:44.560 mm hmm. And I think as well, um, there's there's 3:50:44.560 --> 3:50:49.160 a kind of other thing that like, um, like the 3:50:49.800 --> 3:50:52.480 left has been kind of in a very weak position 3:50:52.520 --> 3:50:55.240 for quite a while now, like since then, since the seventies, 3:50:55.320 --> 3:51:01.240 right and like um, yes, like we're we're just we're 3:51:01.240 --> 3:51:04.600 just starting to come around to maybe being on possibly 3:51:04.640 --> 3:51:07.520 an upswing. But also like I think there was this 3:51:07.600 --> 3:51:09.840 kind of long depressive phase at the end of the 3:51:10.080 --> 3:51:13.040 at the crossing in the centuries right where a lot 3:51:13.080 --> 3:51:15.480 of like left is kind of and this this this 3:51:15.480 --> 3:51:17.880 actually gets into like why some of the reasons why 3:51:17.920 --> 3:51:21.000 we started general into that unit that like we felt 3:51:21.000 --> 3:51:22.880 like we needed to bring this kind of like systems 3:51:22.880 --> 3:51:27.200 thinking and like technical seriousness back to the table after 3:51:27.840 --> 3:51:30.840 the kind of weird depressive phases where like you know, 3:51:30.880 --> 3:51:34.240 like say the ultra globalization stuff for the occupy stuff, 3:51:34.280 --> 3:51:37.760 where people kind of take an almost explicitly anti strategic 3:51:37.840 --> 3:51:40.480 kind of turn and like a kind of anti technical turn. 3:51:41.000 --> 3:51:43.640 You know, there's that kind of depressive hangover of like 3:51:43.680 --> 3:51:46.520 oh my god, like capital and it's it's it's technology 3:51:46.640 --> 3:51:48.320 is is hegemonic? Like how the funk are we ever 3:51:48.360 --> 3:51:50.120 going to get out of this? Like it would have 3:51:50.160 --> 3:51:54.800 been heard to make an argument for a scientific and 3:51:54.880 --> 3:51:59.080 like technical kind of fusion with with the humanist kind 3:51:59.080 --> 3:52:03.200 of impulses of socialism, But that's I think we're getting 3:52:03.200 --> 3:52:04.800 to a point where we can startish actually having that 3:52:04.880 --> 3:52:07.520 conversation again, like we're we're seeing a bit more of 3:52:07.520 --> 3:52:09.880 a turn towards that, and it can turn towards like 3:52:09.920 --> 3:52:13.000 this kind of serious kind of like more and more 3:52:13.040 --> 3:52:16.320 serious kind of discussion of like hey, like okay, like okay, 3:52:16.480 --> 3:52:18.960 like we we we we fucking hate the current order 3:52:19.000 --> 3:52:20.720 of things. We want to we want to see it 3:52:20.760 --> 3:52:23.480 gotten rid of what would we actually replace it with? 3:52:23.560 --> 3:52:25.720 Like functionally, how would things actually work? Like I think 3:52:25.760 --> 3:52:27.600 those kind of conversations are coming back on the table 3:52:27.640 --> 3:52:30.240 in a way that those were just impossible in the nineties, 3:52:30.560 --> 3:52:33.600 like after the Berlin Wall came down or whatever. They 3:52:33.640 --> 3:52:35.720 were impossible a couple of years ago. You know. Yeah, 3:52:35.800 --> 3:52:42.800 the the market as the fundament of society basically seemed 3:52:42.840 --> 3:52:48.600 to be invincible at that time. Um, And there was 3:52:48.640 --> 3:52:56.000 a lot of just sort of wrongheaded assumptions about what 3:52:56.280 --> 3:53:00.320 was and wasn't true about it and about society as 3:53:00.320 --> 3:53:03.080 a whole. And you know, we've had a lot of 3:53:03.200 --> 3:53:09.160 chaos in the years since then. That was um that 3:53:09.240 --> 3:53:13.000 affected not just the countries that we were you know, 3:53:13.600 --> 3:53:18.640 being restructured by the I m F, but actually came 3:53:18.680 --> 3:53:23.160 and affected the core of the world economy as well. Uh. 3:53:23.200 --> 3:53:26.600 And I think that that that's sort of like, you know, 3:53:26.640 --> 3:53:28.960 in the same way that World War One kind of 3:53:29.000 --> 3:53:33.800 disproved the idea of the white man's invincibility and superiority, 3:53:34.200 --> 3:53:39.600 like having those like market chaos dynamics come home to 3:53:39.760 --> 3:53:43.800 roost in the core of the world system has has 3:53:43.960 --> 3:53:47.840 undermined that invincibility, That that that idea that oh, the 3:53:47.920 --> 3:53:50.360 market is just naturally the best and there's nothing that 3:53:50.400 --> 3:53:53.000 could possibly be better. At the same time that we 3:53:53.080 --> 3:53:57.360 have all of this technological development that's happening, um, you 3:53:57.400 --> 3:54:01.160 know in our economy that could be used for something 3:54:01.440 --> 3:54:03.800 different as opposed to you know, I don't know, making 3:54:03.920 --> 3:54:06.960 n f T s or something. Yeah, absolutely right, that 3:54:07.040 --> 3:54:09.280 that's all super important. I think that that kind of refines, 3:54:09.360 --> 3:54:12.120 like my previous thought is refining in my head now 3:54:12.240 --> 3:54:16.280 like that like right now, Um that that kind of 3:54:16.280 --> 3:54:18.760 market chaos and especially even like the chaos of like 3:54:19.280 --> 3:54:24.680 the system's response to COVID and stuff really puts um 3:54:24.720 --> 3:54:26.880 like in general, and for the left in particular, it 3:54:26.920 --> 3:54:28.960 puts like the question of governance back on the table 3:54:29.000 --> 3:54:30.240 in a way that it had kind of been off 3:54:30.240 --> 3:54:31.920 the table for a while. Like I think there was 3:54:32.120 --> 3:54:34.960 there was a period on the left where like left 3:54:35.000 --> 3:54:38.200 activity was kind of like railing against governance. Like it 3:54:38.320 --> 3:54:40.600 was like we we want freedom from governance and that 3:54:40.640 --> 3:54:42.360 sort of thing. Right, And I'm not going to say 3:54:42.400 --> 3:54:44.680 those are necessarily bad impulses, right, but I think they're 3:54:44.800 --> 3:54:46.720 also kind of a bit wrong headed as well. Right, 3:54:46.720 --> 3:54:50.560 But like the kind of reality is that, like, for 3:54:50.560 --> 3:54:52.760 for human life to flourish and for our lives to flourish, 3:54:52.800 --> 3:54:56.080 we need governance. And like because like governance actually like 3:54:56.120 --> 3:54:58.640 as a word has the same route as cybernetics does. 3:54:58.960 --> 3:55:03.960 So kaiberneties, the Greek word becomes kubernettes, becomes cybernetics, right, 3:55:04.440 --> 3:55:08.560 but that's also the root of governor, so kuberner, kubernator, 3:55:09.040 --> 3:55:11.560 those are the roots of governance. So governance and cybernetics 3:55:11.560 --> 3:55:14.440 are one and the same kind of concept. Um And 3:55:14.520 --> 3:55:17.640 this question of like if we intend to create a 3:55:17.640 --> 3:55:21.200 world of self governance, um that is effective, it's viable 3:55:21.280 --> 3:55:25.360 in Beer's terminology, like viable self governance, that what we're 3:55:25.400 --> 3:55:30.640 proposing is opposed to the chaotic vortex of nonsense that 3:55:30.720 --> 3:55:33.080 we have to put up with right now. And that's 3:55:33.120 --> 3:55:34.920 back on the table in a big way. That like 3:55:35.240 --> 3:55:37.320 because I think especially with with COVID, people look at 3:55:37.360 --> 3:55:42.280 like just the sheer idiocy and ineptitude and chaos of 3:55:42.400 --> 3:55:47.320 our governments and realizing like, oh, those are decrepit, completely 3:55:47.320 --> 3:55:50.720 screwed up systems and in parat because their goal is 3:55:50.800 --> 3:55:54.000 the maintenance of capital accumulation. So this gets us back 3:55:54.040 --> 3:55:57.360 to the goal directed behavior cybernetics, right, Like the steersman 3:55:57.720 --> 3:56:00.760 steers the boat towards a goal, right, and it's it's 3:56:00.760 --> 3:56:02.920 always about or like a you know, a serponetic device 3:56:02.960 --> 3:56:05.680 like a thermostat has a goal temperature that is trying 3:56:05.720 --> 3:56:09.640 to regulate the temperature to water towards um You know, 3:56:09.840 --> 3:56:13.680 we have these governance systems that are completely awful. They're 3:56:13.680 --> 3:56:17.160 just like not suitable for like the regulation of human life, 3:56:17.200 --> 3:56:21.040 for flourishing. They're only suitable for the regulation of this 3:56:21.120 --> 3:56:25.040 insane system that just keeps capital accumulation going, like that's 3:56:25.080 --> 3:56:28.520 the control variable that it regulates. And we're now in 3:56:28.560 --> 3:56:30.320 a position, we're on the left, like more and more 3:56:30.320 --> 3:56:32.800 of us are saying like what we're proposing is not 3:56:32.880 --> 3:56:37.040 like a sort of magical escape from governance. We're proposing really, 3:56:37.280 --> 3:56:40.200 you know, we should have samee governance and it turns 3:56:40.200 --> 3:56:44.720 out that same governance is bottom up self organized governance. Um. 3:56:44.760 --> 3:56:47.520 And that's that's both the moral position and a technical position, 3:56:47.880 --> 3:56:50.200 and I think they're both of those. The moral and 3:56:50.200 --> 3:56:54.640 technical valances feed off each other. Like we're we're we're 3:56:54.680 --> 3:56:56.640 able to be the serious people in the room. This 3:56:56.640 --> 3:56:59.000 this is a very big change of pace right for us, 3:56:59.040 --> 3:57:01.560 because like for a while we were railing against like 3:57:01.640 --> 3:57:04.000 the very serious people of like the Centrists and like 3:57:04.000 --> 3:57:07.080 the fucking Blairites and the Clintonite sort of people. We 3:57:07.160 --> 3:57:11.320 are the serious people now saying what what this what 3:57:11.400 --> 3:57:14.920 this system actually does is absurd and ludicrous, and it 3:57:14.960 --> 3:57:18.840 needs to be dismantled and rebuilt with a totally different 3:57:18.880 --> 3:57:23.679 like feedback circuits, a different kind of goal orientation, um. 3:57:23.760 --> 3:57:27.040 And it needs to be oriented towards human flourishing. And 3:57:27.560 --> 3:57:29.600 that's it turns out there's a science of doing that, 3:57:29.680 --> 3:57:32.520 and it's called cybernetics, you know. And we also have 3:57:33.160 --> 3:57:39.600 a runaway ecological crisis where we learn about we see 3:57:39.680 --> 3:57:48.000 that you know, like the capitalist market system is absolutely 3:57:48.120 --> 3:57:51.360 leading us all to death and the earth to death. 3:57:51.640 --> 3:57:55.960 And so it is human flourishing. But we also are 3:57:56.080 --> 3:58:01.200 concerned with the flourishing of life in general. Um. So 3:58:01.400 --> 3:58:05.440 I think that that that is something that wasn't as 3:58:05.560 --> 3:58:08.720 much on the horizon in the seventies. You know, I 3:58:08.760 --> 3:58:11.480 certainly think you know, people were thinking about it. But 3:58:12.320 --> 3:58:19.000 breaking down this barrier between economics uh and UH and ecology, 3:58:19.120 --> 3:58:22.840 I think is a very cybernetic impulse and I think 3:58:22.880 --> 3:58:25.080 one that you know, we need to keep working at 3:58:25.240 --> 3:58:29.040 because like you know, whenever we think about these things 3:58:29.040 --> 3:58:36.440 is separate domains were already uh, we're already engendering more 3:58:36.480 --> 3:58:41.040 destruction of the environment. Yeah, yeah, I think cyberenetics and 3:58:41.080 --> 3:58:44.240 miltill help us in that kind of link um on 3:58:44.400 --> 3:58:46.800 a kind of for left projects, like on an aggressive 3:58:46.840 --> 3:58:50.640 footing of like if we recognize that like the capital 3:58:50.640 --> 3:58:54.000 and its kind of governance system is it is cybernetic, 3:58:54.120 --> 3:58:56.200 like it has its own feedback circuits and like saying 3:58:56.200 --> 3:59:00.400 that the explosive feedback circuit that we're on with with ecology, right, Like, 3:59:00.600 --> 3:59:03.120 how do you intervene in a system to halt and 3:59:03.200 --> 3:59:07.280 disrupt those circuits celested so as to disintegrate the system? 3:59:07.480 --> 3:59:09.320 Is um is something like you can you can learn 3:59:09.320 --> 3:59:11.120 a lot from cyran NICs to to get lessons on 3:59:11.160 --> 3:59:14.280 how to to intervene there. The last thing I want 3:59:14.320 --> 3:59:19.760 to talk about is just what is the society that 3:59:19.920 --> 3:59:22.520 is non capitalist and based off of sort of cyberbetic 3:59:22.560 --> 3:59:26.480 governance principles. What does that look like for just a person? 3:59:27.280 --> 3:59:29.160 Because I think you know this, this has been one 3:59:29.200 --> 3:59:33.600 of the big sort of like political challenges of the 3:59:33.680 --> 3:59:36.920 last you know, fifty years. It's just the complete foreclosure 3:59:36.920 --> 3:59:38.840 of the ability to even just sort of imagine a 3:59:38.920 --> 3:59:44.160 system that's not this mm hmm, yeah, I think it. 3:59:44.160 --> 3:59:52.720 It means UM In the first instance, it means a 3:59:52.800 --> 4:00:00.720 different orientation to your workplace and your community, right, because 4:00:03.360 --> 4:00:09.440 when you grow up in a society where um power 4:00:09.640 --> 4:00:14.680 is exercise autocratically, it has an infantilizing effect on on 4:00:14.720 --> 4:00:19.760 you as an individual. UM. And uh, you know, maybe 4:00:20.320 --> 4:00:25.680 your relationship to work, is your workplace is one of 4:00:25.760 --> 4:00:31.320 sort of emotional detachment or of tantrum throwing, right, because 4:00:31.360 --> 4:00:34.720 these are these are reactions, These are natural reactions to 4:00:34.840 --> 4:00:42.720 being in an abusive environment. UM. But if you are 4:00:42.760 --> 4:00:50.320 in a system where the work of management is not 4:00:50.480 --> 4:00:54.360 only open to you but expected of you, you have 4:00:54.480 --> 4:00:58.640 a different orientation to that workplace, to the community you're 4:00:58.720 --> 4:01:03.080 in because it's your responsibility. If you don't do it, 4:01:04.440 --> 4:01:08.920 you know, you're going to lose your autonomy and also 4:01:09.240 --> 4:01:11.640 you're going to have real problems that you have to 4:01:11.680 --> 4:01:15.400 grapple with as an individual. So there is a responsibility 4:01:15.440 --> 4:01:19.320 that comes there. But also like that means an opening 4:01:19.400 --> 4:01:23.440 up of horizons in terms of well, things don't always 4:01:23.520 --> 4:01:25.640 have to be the same, Things don't always have to 4:01:25.640 --> 4:01:29.200 be handed down to you for management on high. They 4:01:29.200 --> 4:01:34.240 can actually change, Like you can see the possibilities in 4:01:34.280 --> 4:01:36.680 front of you, You can plan for the future in 4:01:36.760 --> 4:01:41.200 your context, and you can have that meaningful freedom in 4:01:41.280 --> 4:01:44.960 your life and be you know, a a full human 4:01:45.040 --> 4:01:49.400 being in that sense, right, um, And so I think 4:01:49.400 --> 4:01:54.360 that that's a very core every day change that you 4:01:54.400 --> 4:01:59.160 could see, um in terms of you know, sort of 4:01:59.200 --> 4:02:03.080 your horizon of where you might work or what you 4:02:03.160 --> 4:02:06.560 might do. You know, you could expect that there would 4:02:06.640 --> 4:02:12.560 be more possibilities for each person to be like quote 4:02:12.600 --> 4:02:17.240 unquote entrepreneurial right to to have initiative in their life 4:02:17.680 --> 4:02:21.720 and be able to envision and create things around them 4:02:21.800 --> 4:02:26.160 that uh, you know they can't do right now because 4:02:27.040 --> 4:02:30.240 they either are stuck in a job that doesn't give 4:02:30.280 --> 4:02:35.480 them that freedom or they are actually not even able 4:02:35.560 --> 4:02:38.400 to have a job right now where they can have 4:02:38.440 --> 4:02:45.760 a reasonable expectation of survival because their workplace is oriented 4:02:45.800 --> 4:02:49.280 around just making sure the work gets done and you know, 4:02:49.400 --> 4:02:54.160 the consequences be damned. UM. So I think that you know, 4:02:54.320 --> 4:03:00.760 that is another area that's important. UM. And that sort 4:03:00.800 --> 4:03:06.520 of freedom of management um extends all the way up 4:03:06.600 --> 4:03:11.760 to uh, you know, working in different kinds of capacities 4:03:11.840 --> 4:03:14.120 or jobs. Like some people in kind of a middle 4:03:14.720 --> 4:03:18.360 middle ranking area in a corporation these days might get 4:03:18.400 --> 4:03:22.200 shuffled around from department to department to try to kind 4:03:22.240 --> 4:03:26.880 of get a well rounded understanding of what the corporation 4:03:27.200 --> 4:03:32.600 is uh and how it functions. But you know, we 4:03:32.640 --> 4:03:36.800 can kind of expect that these roles would be more 4:03:36.800 --> 4:03:42.080 open to everybody because again, you know, a system in 4:03:42.120 --> 4:03:45.640 the v s M is not a person. A system 4:03:45.720 --> 4:03:48.800 is a function and that function should be fulfilled in 4:03:48.840 --> 4:03:53.840 a way that is as flexible as possible. UM. So 4:03:53.920 --> 4:03:56.560 there's a lot less kind of well, I'm stuck in 4:03:56.600 --> 4:03:59.080 accounting and that's my life now, and that's all that 4:03:59.400 --> 4:04:02.360 that all ever be. Of course, there are limits to education, 4:04:02.400 --> 4:04:06.200 their limits to specialization, all of that kind of stuff like, 4:04:06.240 --> 4:04:08.880 you know, it takes time to learn these things, but 4:04:08.920 --> 4:04:12.320 you could expect some more flexibility there without having that 4:04:12.520 --> 4:04:16.080 terror of oh yeah, you know, in the neroliberal era, 4:04:16.400 --> 4:04:19.280 everybody's expected to have like fifteen jobs in the course 4:04:19.320 --> 4:04:22.840 of their quote unquote career. But also each of those 4:04:22.920 --> 4:04:25.280 jobs is going to be interspersed with a period of 4:04:25.360 --> 4:04:29.560 absolute terror as they live with unemployed in a society 4:04:29.600 --> 4:04:34.200 without a safety net. Right, Um. I think that that's 4:04:34.240 --> 4:04:39.360 that's you know, those are real consequences for everybody's life. 4:04:39.800 --> 4:04:43.640 I think, yeah, yeah, absolutely, And I think like at 4:04:43.640 --> 4:04:45.920 a very very high level, the way Beer puts it 4:04:46.040 --> 4:04:49.560 as that we are trapped in this kind of crazy 4:04:49.600 --> 4:04:53.280 system that's like it's control variable as profits, like that's 4:04:53.320 --> 4:04:56.640 the little variable that it's it's like doing feedback onto 4:04:56.720 --> 4:05:02.040 to maintain um. Where is what we're proposing is like 4:05:02.400 --> 4:05:07.240 the sort of cyberanetic future. We a society that's optimizing 4:05:07.640 --> 4:05:10.640 flourishing Like what what beer Beer? The word he uses 4:05:10.680 --> 4:05:13.760 a u demony, which is borrowing from Aristotle, just like 4:05:14.160 --> 4:05:18.000 flourishing um. And yeah, a lot a lot of stuff 4:05:18.000 --> 4:05:20.160 flows out from that, like to imagine a world where 4:05:21.960 --> 4:05:24.600 because we we all feel it, right, that like everything 4:05:24.600 --> 4:05:27.800 around us is kind of like micro tuned as like 4:05:27.840 --> 4:05:30.520 a little feedback loop to keep money and profit flowing 4:05:31.160 --> 4:05:34.280 and to keep capital accumulating. Just imagine a world where 4:05:34.280 --> 4:05:38.720 that's just not true anymore, and the the sort of 4:05:39.040 --> 4:05:41.920 social infrastructure that you grow up in is an infrastructure 4:05:41.920 --> 4:05:48.560 that instead optimizes for the flourishing of life. Yeah. Um, 4:05:49.080 --> 4:05:51.400 And I think you know, when we we we look 4:05:51.440 --> 4:05:54.160 at sort of the broader patterns of society today, we 4:05:54.240 --> 4:05:57.720 see all of these hair brained schemes that you know, 4:05:58.680 --> 4:06:02.240 very rich men are embarking on and they're they're setting 4:06:02.280 --> 4:06:05.800 the agenda for society. You know, we're that you know, 4:06:05.920 --> 4:06:08.720 Mark Zuckerberg is telling us that the metaverse is the 4:06:08.760 --> 4:06:11.600 future and you just have to get on board with this, 4:06:11.760 --> 4:06:17.320 even though anyone can see that this idea is patently ridiculous. Um. 4:06:17.440 --> 4:06:23.320 And in a society where that kind of management, that 4:06:23.440 --> 4:06:28.640 kind of money power doesn't exist anymore, Like you don't 4:06:28.720 --> 4:06:32.600 have to live under that kind of future horizon anymore, 4:06:32.600 --> 4:06:36.040 where it's like eight men with absurd amounts of money 4:06:36.400 --> 4:06:40.640 cook up, you know, ridiculous schemes and everybody has to 4:06:40.680 --> 4:06:43.040 follow them, just like they were following the orders of 4:06:43.080 --> 4:06:46.840 pharaoh back in the day. I think, do not be 4:06:46.960 --> 4:06:49.760 ruled by pharaohs is as kind of places and he too, 4:06:50.560 --> 4:06:52.120 leave off unless you tell if anything else do you 4:06:52.160 --> 4:06:54.840 want to get to? Okay, there's there's one little line 4:06:54.920 --> 4:06:57.680 from Beer's book what it's actually a set of presentation. 4:06:57.680 --> 4:07:00.280 It is called designing Freedom that I absolutely love. Cracks 4:07:00.280 --> 4:07:01.320 me up every time I read it, so I'm just 4:07:01.360 --> 4:07:03.080 gonna need to for the listeners. It gives you a 4:07:03.120 --> 4:07:06.520 sense of his absolute like ridiculous radicalism, like these off 4:07:06.560 --> 4:07:09.800 the fucking chats with this stuff. Um. At some point 4:07:09.880 --> 4:07:12.760 he says, and I'm quoting here, every time we hear 4:07:12.800 --> 4:07:15.040 that a proposal will destroy society as we know it, 4:07:15.160 --> 4:07:19.160 we should have the courage to say, thank God at last. Yeah. 4:07:21.240 --> 4:07:27.280 Really a real maniac, ye yeah. And and and he 4:07:27.440 --> 4:07:30.560 had this this dictum of if it works, it's out 4:07:30.560 --> 4:07:35.600 of date. So you know, it's it's like like, yeah, 4:07:35.640 --> 4:07:41.640 don't be complacent, you know, don't be a traditionalist. And 4:07:41.720 --> 4:07:43.720 I think also that there's been there's been really horrific 4:07:43.760 --> 4:07:46.440 consequences of sort of the right being the ones to 4:07:46.600 --> 4:07:51.200 like take the urge for creative destruction. Just like you know, 4:07:51.280 --> 4:07:55.520 what was that line there's some I forget some some 4:07:55.600 --> 4:07:58.040 venture capitalist things like move fast and break things, and 4:07:58.080 --> 4:07:59.960 it's like, yeah, so when they move fast the thing 4:08:00.080 --> 4:08:05.440 they breaks us. But you know we can move faster 4:08:05.720 --> 4:08:10.280 and break things that are bad. Yeah, definite to a 4:08:10.320 --> 4:08:13.920 creative and playful kind of motive, being right that like 4:08:14.120 --> 4:08:15.680 you you might be able to work, wake up in 4:08:15.680 --> 4:08:17.800 the morning and think, God, you know, it would be 4:08:17.800 --> 4:08:19.600 really cool if we could have like a like a 4:08:19.680 --> 4:08:22.240 child care nurse ory just like like out in the 4:08:22.320 --> 4:08:24.600 out in the common area between these buildings and stuff, 4:08:24.640 --> 4:08:27.360 and like go to your go to your local like 4:08:27.480 --> 4:08:30.520 your your workers council or whatever, and have really plausible 4:08:30.720 --> 4:08:34.040 like way of actually getting that and like collaborating with 4:08:34.040 --> 4:08:36.320 people to make that happen, and then being like, Okay, 4:08:36.320 --> 4:08:38.520 well we'll try it as an experiment for twelve months. 4:08:38.520 --> 4:08:40.840 We'll keep we'll see how it goes. And then there's 4:08:41.160 --> 4:08:43.240 a feedback cycle where it's like, Okay, some aspect of 4:08:43.240 --> 4:08:45.320 this design didn't really work out. We'll we'll go talk 4:08:45.320 --> 4:08:47.520 about it some more, and then it aerate on that 4:08:47.600 --> 4:08:51.880 and that's that's like as it's it's an entrepreneurialism that 4:08:51.920 --> 4:08:55.080 doesn't bear much resemblance to what that word means right now. 4:08:55.160 --> 4:08:59.000 It just means that human beings, living real things, real workers, 4:08:59.000 --> 4:09:02.200 will be able to actually control their environments in this 4:09:02.640 --> 4:09:05.840 substance of their lives in a meaningful length. Yeah, and 4:09:05.960 --> 4:09:11.320 like this, I think you know, back in the nineties 4:09:12.000 --> 4:09:15.680 early odds, sort of before the two thous crisis, in 4:09:15.960 --> 4:09:21.000 the hoary days of your um it's there was a 4:09:21.040 --> 4:09:29.280 lot of talk about flexibility and dynamicism and adaptation. But 4:09:29.600 --> 4:09:34.880 what that always meant was we make decisions about what's 4:09:34.920 --> 4:09:38.560 going to change, and you have to adapt, right. It 4:09:38.640 --> 4:09:41.680 was it was it was, you know, always this arbitrary 4:09:41.760 --> 4:09:45.760 power from outside that would just be changing the social fabric, 4:09:45.880 --> 4:09:49.680 and you had to be flexible enough to cope with 4:09:49.800 --> 4:09:53.960 what you were being subjected to. It's very different if 4:09:55.000 --> 4:10:01.480 you know the planning is being done by you for you, 4:10:02.200 --> 4:10:07.560 and you're moving towards adaptation and flexibility out of a 4:10:07.600 --> 4:10:11.800 sense of oh, yeah, this would be better and I'm 4:10:11.840 --> 4:10:15.280 going to adapt to be in a better state to 4:10:16.080 --> 4:10:19.760 to work with my environment, uh, in a more healthy 4:10:20.000 --> 4:10:23.560 and a more flourishing way, as opposed to just like 4:10:24.000 --> 4:10:26.200 oh yeah, you've got to work three jobs now, so 4:10:26.320 --> 4:10:30.320 figure it out right, that's a very different kind of flexibility, 4:10:30.440 --> 4:10:33.440 very different kind of adaptation. And you know, those things 4:10:33.440 --> 4:10:35.920 have sort of become dirty words in some ways, but 4:10:36.240 --> 4:10:38.360 they are really core to the way that we all 4:10:38.400 --> 4:10:41.360 exist as organisms in the world, and they don't have 4:10:41.480 --> 4:10:46.960 to be just synonyms for abuse. Mm hmm exactly. Yeah, 4:10:47.000 --> 4:10:49.120 I think okay, we can take this as a place 4:10:49.160 --> 4:10:51.920 to leave off. Yeah, do you two have stuff you 4:10:51.960 --> 4:10:53.840 want to look and I know you you want to plug, 4:10:53.880 --> 4:10:56.120 but plug the things that you want people to listen 4:10:56.160 --> 4:11:01.280 to because they are UM. Yeah, we're General intellecting It. Um. 4:11:01.320 --> 4:11:03.680 You go to General intellecting It dot nets and it's 4:11:03.680 --> 4:11:06.280 got all the episodes on there. We're on Twitter as 4:11:06.360 --> 4:11:09.680 g I unite pod um. Yeah, you can find us 4:11:09.680 --> 4:11:12.120 on all the podcast things. UM. We're also part of 4:11:12.160 --> 4:11:16.280 a podcast network called emancipation and so that's emancipation dot 4:11:16.320 --> 4:11:20.480 Network on the web. UM. And yeah, some really excellent 4:11:20.480 --> 4:11:25.400 shows on there. We were collaborating with Swampside Chats and 4:11:25.880 --> 4:11:29.800 um Mortal Science, from Alpha to Omega Jumps Utopia. They're 4:11:29.880 --> 4:11:33.920 they're really wonderful shows that are all UM. It's it's 4:11:33.920 --> 4:11:36.200 a variety of different sort of takes on things. But 4:11:36.360 --> 4:11:39.120 like UM, there's a sort of common there's a sort 4:11:39.120 --> 4:11:43.080 of spiritual common grounds they all have. Um, yeah, we 4:11:43.080 --> 4:11:51.600 we all were all interested in thinking systematically. We're all 4:11:51.640 --> 4:11:56.160 interested in emancipation, as the network name says. We're all 4:11:56.240 --> 4:12:02.640 interested in sort of building something going forward, trying to 4:12:02.760 --> 4:12:09.760 construct an alternative as opposed to simply getting caught up 4:12:09.840 --> 4:12:13.800 in day to day politics or getting caught up in 4:12:14.400 --> 4:12:19.760 uh dumer mentality. Yeah. So yeah, it's it's systematic, it's critical, 4:12:19.840 --> 4:12:22.000 but it's also constructive, and I think that's what we're 4:12:22.000 --> 4:12:25.400 all trying to do there. Yeah. Yeah, Well, thank you 4:12:25.440 --> 4:12:29.040 too both for coming on. Thank you. It's thanks for 4:12:29.040 --> 4:12:31.760 having us. Yeah, this this has been make it happen 4:12:31.840 --> 4:12:35.760 here you can find us that happened here pod in places. 4:12:36.320 --> 4:12:38.920 There's also stuff atquals on Media that you can also 4:12:38.960 --> 4:12:42.400 find in those same places and possibly also different ones. Yeah, 4:12:42.400 --> 4:12:45.240 we have a we have a website. Everyone asked me 4:12:45.280 --> 4:12:48.520 for my sources every single week and they get posted 4:12:48.560 --> 4:12:53.000 there once a month. So yeah, go go to quoson 4:12:53.080 --> 4:12:56.520 media dot com and you will find all of the 4:12:56.520 --> 4:12:58.080 sources so you don't have to DM me every week. 4:13:00.160 --> 4:13:17.640 All right, Bye, Hey, we'll be back Monday with more 4:13:17.680 --> 4:13:20.360 episodes every week from now until the heat death of 4:13:20.400 --> 4:13:23.160 the universe. It Could Happen Here is a production of 4:13:23.200 --> 4:13:26.120 cool Zone Media. Or more podcasts from cool Zone Media. 4:13:26.240 --> 4:13:28.680 Visit our website cool zone media dot com or check 4:13:28.760 --> 4:13:31.000 us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 4:13:31.120 --> 4:13:34.120 or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources 4:13:34.160 --> 4:13:36.720 for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone 4:13:36.720 --> 4:13:40.520 Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening. Kick Off 4:13:40.560 --> 4:13:42.800 to the Big Game is just hours away. This is 4:13:42.840 --> 4:13:44.920 your last chance to get in on the action until 4:13:44.960 --> 4:13:48.040 next season. With Draft Kings sports Book, an official sports 4:13:48.040 --> 4:13:50.520 betting partner of Super Bowl fifty six. In honor of 4:13:50.520 --> 4:13:53.320 Super Bowl fifty six, Draft Kings is giving new customers 4:13:53.400 --> 4:13:56.160 fifty six to one off on either Cincinnati or l A. 4:13:56.200 --> 4:13:59.000 That just five dollars and get free bets if your 4:13:59.040 --> 4:14:01.720 team wins. 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In 4:14:30.600 --> 4:14:33.440 Connecticut called eight eight seven eight nine seven seven seven 4:14:33.480 --> 4:14:36.280 seven or visit CCPG dot org slash chat In New 4:14:36.360 --> 4:14:38.720 York call eight seven seven eight Hope and Why or 4:14:38.760 --> 4:14:41.560 text hope and Why for six seven three six nine There. 4:14:41.560 --> 4:14:44.600 I'm Scott Rank, host of the podcast History Unplugged. Now. 4:14:44.600 --> 4:14:46.520 It really is a dream come true to get paid 4:14:46.560 --> 4:14:49.120 to talk about history without all the stress, while still 4:14:49.120 --> 4:14:50.960 being able to make a living. And I did it 4:14:51.000 --> 4:14:53.640 with Spreaker from my heart. Not only did they make 4:14:53.680 --> 4:14:56.640 it super easy to monetize my podcast, but at revenue 4:14:56.680 --> 4:14:58.840 is three to four times higher with Spreaker than with 4:14:58.920 --> 4:15:01.120 any other host I've worked with. 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