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Speaker 1: You know what I love prop is live shows. Live

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Speaker 1: podcast shows are incredible, especially when you can watch them

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Speaker 1: whenever you want. M that's what we're doing right now.

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Speaker 1: Are you saying we should do one? Yeah, a virtual

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Speaker 1: live podcast show at moment house dot com slash Behind

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Speaker 1: the Bastards on February sevent at six pm PST. You

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Speaker 1: don't have to watch the show live, but you can

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Speaker 1: and participate in a fun Q and A, or you

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Speaker 1: can watch the link for up to a week later

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Speaker 1: after it airs. So check out our virtual show and

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Speaker 1: buy tickets at moment house dot com. Slash Behind the

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Speaker 1: Bastards will also be linking the ticket link in our

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Speaker 1: episode descriptions for Behind the Bastards. You can check that

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Speaker 1: out and see y'all there. Well, you'll see us there,

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Speaker 1: you will see there. Hey, it's de Lieva. I'm here

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Speaker 1: to tell you about my brand new podcast, De Liva

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Speaker 1: at your service. I'll be sitting down with the world's

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Speaker 1: most inspiring minds to uncover what makes them take and

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Speaker 1: what they've learned from the obstacles life has thrown at them,

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Speaker 1: including Sir Elton John. After a lot of upsets, a

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Speaker 1: lot of disappointments, a lot of betrayals. It's turned out

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Speaker 1: to be the most wonderful life right now that I've

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Speaker 1: could ever imagined. Listen to do a Leap at your

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Speaker 1: service on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or

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Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jake Calbern, host of

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Speaker 1: deep Cover. Our new season is about a lawyer who

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Speaker 1: helped the mob run Chicago. He bribed judges and even

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Speaker 1: helped a hit man walk free until one day when

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Speaker 1: he started talking with the FBI and promised that he

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Speaker 1: could take the mob down. I've spent the past year

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out why he flipped and what he

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Speaker 1: was really after. Listen to deep Cover on the I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody,

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Speaker 1: Robert Evans here and I wanted to let you know.

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Speaker 1: This is a compilation episode. So every episode of the

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Speaker 1: week that just happened is here in one convenient and

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Speaker 1: with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to

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Speaker 1: in a long wretch if you want. If you've been

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Speaker 1: listening to the episodes every day this week, there's gonna

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Speaker 1: be nothing new here for you, but you can make

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Speaker 1: your own decisions. Welcome back, to it could happen here

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Speaker 1: a podcast about things falling apart, and occasionally even about

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Speaker 1: how to put some other things back together. Um. Today

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Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about something that is increasingly a

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Speaker 1: part of what we like to call the crumbles around here,

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Speaker 1: which is the health care system in this country, in

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Speaker 1: the hospital system in this country as it uh kind

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Speaker 1: of gets crunched by COVID. UM. And we're gonna particularly

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Speaker 1: talk about a really critical aspect of our entire medical

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Speaker 1: infrastructure that a lot of people don't know about traveling nurses. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And with me today is our guest, and and you

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Speaker 1: are a traveling nurse from New York to California all

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Speaker 1: around the country. UM, thanks for being on the show.

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Speaker 1: Glad to be here. Yeah. So, I live in Colorado

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Speaker 1: and I was at a right ular staff nurse UM

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Speaker 1: until COVID hit. And you know, at that time, we

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Speaker 1: expected it to crunch everywhere. UM, but my home hospital,

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Speaker 1: like many places that worked on the coast, UM ended

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Speaker 1: up being really empty when everybody locked down and stopped

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Speaker 1: getting into car accidents and going to parties and all

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Speaker 1: of the other things that bring people into the e

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Speaker 1: R and I see us um. So At that time,

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Speaker 1: I quit my full time job and went to New

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Speaker 1: York as a travel nurse. UM. And then I've been

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Speaker 1: dancing around hotspots since then. So New York, Texas, Ohio,

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Speaker 1: rural New Mexico. UM. I just finished my third contract

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Speaker 1: in California. I've been up to Oregon. So UM. I've

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Speaker 1: seen the health care system working and not working in

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Speaker 1: a lot of different places, and also like how much

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Speaker 1: disparity there is different communities related to covid as in

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Speaker 1: the health care that we can provide. Yeah, and I

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Speaker 1: am kind of before we move on to some of

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Speaker 1: the specific things going on with travel nurses, what is

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Speaker 1: your sense of like how often are you in a

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Speaker 1: place and feel like, well, this the hospital system here,

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Speaker 1: this particular hospital, they're they're like right on the edge

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Speaker 1: of a breaking point most of the time. Okay, that's

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Speaker 1: good to know where your seatbelts, folks. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: particularly since everyone was able to get vaccinated right Like

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Speaker 1: to me, I really feel like that that that point

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Speaker 1: of like the tipping point of like the quote unquote

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Speaker 1: crumbles kind of like after everybody was was able to

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Speaker 1: get their second vaccination, UM, and we had so much

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Speaker 1: hope last May and June and things were reopening and

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Speaker 1: it was kind of like, wow, things could go back

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Speaker 1: to normal. Um, and then like, I don't believe that's

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Speaker 1: going to happen. And since then, I've seen so much

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Speaker 1: more despair in my coworkers, and I've heard about so

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Speaker 1: many more healthcare suicides, UM staff, nurses, travel nurses, arties,

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Speaker 1: other ancillary people, and you know, the kind of running

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Speaker 1: joke and all out of workplaces is like, well, I

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Speaker 1: hope I test positive for COVID because that would be

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Speaker 1: better than coming into work another day. Yeah, alright, I

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Speaker 1: hope I get hit by a car so I don't

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Speaker 1: have to come in your job, I think, is what

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Speaker 1: a lot of people would the people who you know

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Speaker 1: are reasonable human beings and see what you're doing is

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Speaker 1: incredibly necessary, find that would find the work to be

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Speaker 1: something of a nightmare. I mean, it sounds like horrific

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Speaker 1: um to have to to deal with this. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's not an easy job in the best

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Speaker 1: of times, being a nurse, but like with COVID and stuff,

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Speaker 1: it's it's just there's so much else on y'all's plates. Um.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things that has happened over the

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Speaker 1: course of the last year or well almost two years now, UM,

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Speaker 1: is that from January twenty the advertised pay rates for

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Speaker 1: travel nurses around the country have gone up by about

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Speaker 1: sixty UM, which in staffing firms of you know, increase

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Speaker 1: their building of hospitals by like so like this huge

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Speaker 1: rays in what um travel nurses are demand ending and

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Speaker 1: what is getting paid out. And I think a reasonable

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Speaker 1: person would go, well, yeah, of course, um And yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think anybody would go any reasonable person would go, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: of course, you guys deserve much more money than that

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Speaker 1: for what you're dealing with right now. UM. I have

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Speaker 1: no problem with this, But people who do have problems

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Speaker 1: with this are the American Hospital Association UM, among other

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Speaker 1: folks generally the folks who are seeing this primarily as well,

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Speaker 1: now we're spending more money issue as opposed to a,

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Speaker 1: hey maybe we don't have enough nurses, which right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I guess I have maybe a couple of comments

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Speaker 1: on that. So one of the things about trafical nurses,

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Speaker 1: so if if you're not in the travel field and

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Speaker 1: you say I want to change hospitals, even if you're

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Speaker 1: an experienced nurse, they will take between a month and

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Speaker 1: six months to go through their hiring process, and then

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Speaker 1: they will give you a week, two weeks, maybe four

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Speaker 1: weeks of orientation. So that's a long process to hire

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Speaker 1: an Normally, for me as a travel nurse, I will

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Speaker 1: talk to a recruiter, I will say yes, I will

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Speaker 1: be on the road somewhere between four hours to twenty

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Speaker 1: four hours later, I will get to the hospital. I

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Speaker 1: will do a bunch of paperwork that is for compliance

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Speaker 1: and makes no difference at all. I will get between

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Speaker 1: two and six hours of orientation, which is basically, here's

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Speaker 1: the bathroom, here's the storeroom, this is what we're going

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Speaker 1: to audit in the charts. And then I'm expected to

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Speaker 1: take care of complex actively dying patients. So so you know,

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Speaker 1: people complain about how much we're getting paid, But if

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Speaker 1: you only have two hours of like where's the bathroom,

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Speaker 1: and like this is how most of the time when

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Speaker 1: you're spending with I t being like hey, I need

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Speaker 1: computer access, buddy, and then there you are and you're

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Speaker 1: in the thick of it with no backup. You know,

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Speaker 1: so you already have to be an expert in your field,

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Speaker 1: and you have to be able to walk into an

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Speaker 1: unfamiliar chaotic situation and hit the ground running immediately. So, yes,

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Speaker 1: making a lenning bucks an hour is a lot of money,

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Speaker 1: But I don't know that that's so super unreasonable for

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Speaker 1: two hours of Like yeah, it's now take care of

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Speaker 1: people who are actively dying and don't screw it up.

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Speaker 1: It's the way we're told the system is supposed to work, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: this is how capitalism is supposed to function. The demand

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Speaker 1: for something goes up, and the demand for nursing his

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Speaker 1: way the hell up, so the price goes up. Um,

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Speaker 1: if you believe in capitalism, like one assumes these people

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Speaker 1: who are responsible for you know, paying you and are

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Speaker 1: currently lobbying. So what's happening. I should go back because

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Speaker 1: we didn't note this. But the American Hospital Association and

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Speaker 1: a number of other folks are lobbying Congress right now

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Speaker 1: to put a cap on the amount of money that

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Speaker 1: traveling nurses UM can uh CAN can receive, and a

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Speaker 1: number of UM congress people have said that they're going

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Speaker 1: to be looking into the issue. Several states, Oregon, Illinois, Pennsylvania, Kansas,

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Speaker 1: and Kentucky have introduced legislation that's attempting to cap nurse

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Speaker 1: pay rates. So there's like this huge backlash attempting to

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Speaker 1: lock down the amount of money y'all can continue to

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Speaker 1: get paid UM because of all of the things. This

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Speaker 1: country I guess has money for the people dealing with

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Speaker 1: the I don't know what. I don't know how many

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Speaker 1: millions of additional sick and dying people UM are are

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Speaker 1: are kind of beyond what these folks are willing to

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Speaker 1: shell out for UM. And I got the size of that,

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Speaker 1: and I mean to clarify, so in a FEMA contract,

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Speaker 1: so what a lot of the contracts I take are.

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Speaker 1: So the nurse is making between a hundred and and

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Speaker 1: maybe you also have a tax free stipend or you

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Speaker 1: don't kind of depending on how you are in that.

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Speaker 1: And then but the bill rate to the hospital is

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Speaker 1: usually like so the legislation is against the agencies. The

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Speaker 1: agencies are making between forty. Of course, the agency is

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Speaker 1: then going to say, hey, well we aren't going to

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Speaker 1: pay you as much because we still want the same cut. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: My understanding, so the trickle down effect is likely going

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Speaker 1: to be travel nurse wages. But my understanding is it's

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Speaker 1: asking the FTC to take enforcement against the travel nurse agencies,

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Speaker 1: because the agencies, they're the ones that say they have

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Speaker 1: the person on the phone that says, hey, you have

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Speaker 1: these credentials, we want to send you to this hospital yes,

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Speaker 1: or now we've got this hotel arranged or we don't

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Speaker 1: or you know those types of and we're going to

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Speaker 1: do this type of on boarding. So they have their

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Speaker 1: own kind of infrastructure and they take, you know, half

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Speaker 1: of the cut. Some of those people are making a

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Speaker 1: lot of money too, Yeah, And it seems like it's

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Speaker 1: kind of the situation where the way this is being framed,

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Speaker 1: they're trying to crack down on these people who are

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Speaker 1: kind of profiteering or could be argued to be profiteering

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Speaker 1: off the situation um, rather than trying to cap the

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Speaker 1: amount that the nurses can make, so to speak, or

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Speaker 1: at least not by as much. But the overall effect

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Speaker 1: will be that because of the way these companies work,

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Speaker 1: y'all will still wind up making less money. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: how um Within the traveling nurse community, what is kind

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Speaker 1: of where are people right now with this? Like what

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Speaker 1: is what is kind of the mood? Um? So I

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Speaker 1: think there's a couple of things to note. So in

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Speaker 1: the FEMA contracts. They're usually sixty to seventy two contracts,

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Speaker 1: so you're working back to back to back to back.

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Speaker 1: So I'll do eight weeks sometimes. And most people are

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Speaker 1: not white women like me. This is mostly first and

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Speaker 1: second generation immigrants and generally people of color. Um. So,

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Speaker 1: these are not people that are saving for Lamborghinis. These

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Speaker 1: are people that are paying off their student loans because

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Speaker 1: a lot of them went to private nursing schools because

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Speaker 1: that was kind of what was accessible to them because

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Speaker 1: all of the disparity and education and opportunities. These are

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Speaker 1: people that are trying to pay off their mortgages. These

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Speaker 1: are people who are paying off their parents houses. Um.

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Speaker 1: So this kind of idea that like nurses are greedy

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Speaker 1: is I think really unfair because most of us are

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Speaker 1: just trying to like, you know, a life that works.

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Speaker 1: And also, you can't do eight hour contracts fifty two

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Speaker 1: weeks out of the year, no, I mean doing it

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Speaker 1: for any extended period of time. I've I've worked those

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Speaker 1: kind of hours in a generally less stressful working environment.

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Speaker 1: Um and it like it breaks you down, um over time,

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Speaker 1: Like you you can't do that and at any time

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Speaker 1: in your life, for one thing, like, um, and you

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Speaker 1: can't do that forever. And it sounds like this is

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Speaker 1: kind of a lot of people are taking it as

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Speaker 1: like this is an opportunity. I can get my parents

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Speaker 1: out of debt, I can I can get a house, Um,

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Speaker 1: I can say for my kids to I can pay

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Speaker 1: off my own college. Like it's a chance for a

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Speaker 1: lot of these people by putting in an unbelievable amount

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Speaker 1: of effort to get ahead. Uh. And I can't can't

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Speaker 1: even imagine the frustration at seeing so many people be like, well, no,

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Speaker 1: not so fast. And I mean one of the things

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Speaker 1: that people are bringing up is right like it in

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Speaker 1: the same way that you know, we struggle to want

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Speaker 1: to pass minimum wage laws for the undocumented immigrants that

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Speaker 1: pick our food and you know, support this infrastructure that

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Speaker 1: is totally unseen now that we have, you know what

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Speaker 1: is mostly for stance second generation immigrants that are working

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Speaker 1: these FEMA contracts. Like you're targeting a section of the

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Speaker 1: population that are not the people that have doubled tripled

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Speaker 1: their wealth in the pandemic, right like, these are not

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Speaker 1: all of the people that got the small business loans

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Speaker 1: that didn't need them, and you know and have are

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Speaker 1: just putting all of that money into stock, right, is

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Speaker 1: there not? These are people who just want a middle

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Speaker 1: class American dream and we're working, will work really really

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Speaker 1: hard for it. And I mean there these are people

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Speaker 1: who are asking, can I have the thing we're all promised?

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Speaker 1: If I spend eighty hours a week watching people in

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Speaker 1: a lot of cases choke out their last fucking breaths,

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Speaker 1: is that okay? And a lot of are saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: of course, not right. And you know, so we're taking

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Speaker 1: care of dying people while we're getting yelled at at

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Speaker 1: the phone of like is cursing a lot on the

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Speaker 1: show or yes, of course? Yeah. I mean I had

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Speaker 1: a family member saying, you're fucking imprisoning her on a

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Speaker 1: ventil lator. I'm going to come for you. Where do

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Speaker 1: you fucking live? You know we have to get security involved. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, we get death threats. I've had people like

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Speaker 1: threatened to find where I live and raped me. And

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Speaker 1: so I mean, yeah, taking care of your dying loved

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Speaker 1: one who also probably would say those same things to

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Speaker 1: me because I would say, hey, please be vaccinated and

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Speaker 1: they would say fuck you. But I'm still going to

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Speaker 1: do everything I can to take care of them, and

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Speaker 1: I'm going to do this abuse and like, yeah, if

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Speaker 1: I'm going to leave my home and the safety of

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Speaker 1: a hospital that works and go into these total cluster

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Speaker 1: fucks of hospitals where the educator has left, the manager

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Speaker 1: has left, the director has left, so there's no leadership.

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Speaker 1: It's travelers, some of which are great, some of which

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Speaker 1: are also hot messes, and trying to take care of

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Speaker 1: these people. Then like, yes, I want to be paid

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Speaker 1: accordingly for it. Now, would I trade that for a

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Speaker 1: social um, a social safety net of health insurance because

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Speaker 1: I have to get private health insurance which is shady. Um,

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Speaker 1: I don't get any disability insurance. I have no stick

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Speaker 1: leave right because you're you're you're a pinch hitter. You're

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Speaker 1: not like salary anywhere. Yeah, but would I trade this

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Speaker 1: high salary for a social safety net? Personally I would yes,

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Speaker 1: But I mean nobody's going to say, like, yes, you

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Speaker 1: will be able to retire with dignity if you play

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Speaker 1: by all of these rules. They don't believe that I

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Speaker 1: want to make the money. Yeah, it's I mean we're

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Speaker 1: all always in this kind of like yes, soccer way

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Speaker 1: as much as you can while it's coming situation, and

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Speaker 1: she's especially if you're especially if you're doing something you're

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Speaker 1: gonna need to recover from later, right Like, this is

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Speaker 1: I I you know, I've I've done overseas work. I

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Speaker 1: understand kind of the nature of like trauma. And while

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Speaker 1: you're doing the job at the rate you're doing it,

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Speaker 1: you're also like pushing off a day of reckoning mentally

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Speaker 1: and not having a cushion of savings helps with that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Like in the middle of it, you're in it, and

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Speaker 1: then you know, sometimes it's weeks, sometimes it's months. Um,

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Speaker 1: I hiked the Colorado Trail for mental health, and half

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Speaker 1: of those nights I had I See you nightmares. So

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Speaker 1: I was in these beautiful the middle of over places

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Speaker 1: where everything was quiet. I would wake up with all

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Speaker 1: of the beeps and people dying in my head night

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Speaker 1: after night after night. You know. Yeah, I mean, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm angry that they don't want to compensate me for that,

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Speaker 1: because I mean, they're definitely not paying for my therapist.

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Speaker 1: They definitely like aren't giving me access to disability if

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Speaker 1: I need it, right Like, yeah, because obviously again you're

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Speaker 1: you're a contractor effectively, Um, there's not like a union

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Speaker 1: for traveling nurses? Is there or Am I wrong about that? No? So,

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Speaker 1: I mean the only thing you have each you're negotiating power. Um.

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Speaker 1: So I have eight years of experience between emergency and

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Speaker 1: I see you um and a lot of very um,

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Speaker 1: big and highly regarded hospitals. So I'm a hot commodity

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Speaker 1: to them, so I can kind of pick and choose, um,

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Speaker 1: who I want to work with compared to someone that

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Speaker 1: has less desirable specialties. Not that those specialties don't also

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Speaker 1: work as hard, but they're just harder. They're easier to staff,

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Speaker 1: so therefore they're not It's a it's a market things.

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Speaker 1: I definitely don't believe that my specialties are more like

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Speaker 1: inherently valuable, just in terms of the market. Um. So

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Speaker 1: you know, so I get I can I have the

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Speaker 1: luxury of turning down contracts that aren't what I want.

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Speaker 1: But I mean, I have no idea what I'm walking into.

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Speaker 1: So on Monday, I'll walk into somewhere. Um, they said,

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Speaker 1: you'll do some paperwork, you'll get your orientation, you'll have

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Speaker 1: it'll all be it'll be a busy day and then

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Speaker 1: you'll be on your own. And I have no idea.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes you're oriented in one unit and you never see

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Speaker 1: that united get so um and I you know, you

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Speaker 1: have no idea what you're walking into. And how how

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Speaker 1: long are these contracts? Generally? For so, before COVID, the

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Speaker 1: standard nursing contract was thirteen weeks UM. Since COVID, a

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Speaker 1: lot of them are shorter. And I've only done short

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Speaker 1: contracts because if it's a decent place, then I can

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Speaker 1: renew and stay longer usually, and if it's a bad place,

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Speaker 1: then I'm pretty happy to get out early. UM. So

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Speaker 1: I do between four and eight week contracts, and I

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Speaker 1: usually do sixty plus hours a week. Is there any

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Speaker 1: kind of like organization that you've seen come together a

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Speaker 1: little more between people who are doing this this gig

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Speaker 1: since you don't have kind of representation. Is that something

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Speaker 1: that started to take form in the last two years

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Speaker 1: since COVID. I mean there's definitely a lot of talk

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Speaker 1: about it. Um. I think like those of us that

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Speaker 1: started traveling since the pandemic, you know, I would say

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Speaker 1: that I've only done crisis contracts, like I've never done

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Speaker 1: a normal thirteen week, thirty six hour a week, not

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Speaker 1: crisis assignment, like I've only gone into the ship show hotspots. Um.

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Speaker 1: And so therefore, like my needs and desires are different

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Speaker 1: than somebody who likes that previous lifestyle. So in some

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Speaker 1: ways it's a little bit hard for us to kind

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Speaker 1: of agree on common goals because we have a lot

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Speaker 1: of different you know, we're very diverse group of nurses. Um. Definitely,

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Speaker 1: the million Nurse March is kind of a step towards that.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about that what what is this because I

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Speaker 1: just learned about this pretty recently. Yeah, so I dropped

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Speaker 1: off the grid for the last five days, which was

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Speaker 1: fantastic for me, but it means I'm also just starting

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Speaker 1: to figure it out. Um. So the kind of general

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Speaker 1: idea is that you know, we have I think, uh,

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Speaker 1: I'm hopefully I don't get it wrong. Four millions some

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Speaker 1: nurses in the country, a huge number of nurses in

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Speaker 1: the country, and a huge number of dropping out. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, hundreds of thousands quit last year. They I

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Speaker 1: think one estimate is five thousand make quit this year

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Speaker 1: and we were just so people know, tens of thousands

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Speaker 1: of nurses understaffed before COVID nation. Yes, right right, Um,

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Speaker 1: And you know, I think one of the things to

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Speaker 1: understand too is that like if you work I don't know,

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Speaker 1: what's what's the normal type of job that people work.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. If you work at the d m V,

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Speaker 1: a bookman, Oh right. If you work at the d

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Speaker 1: m V and the d m V is slow, you

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Speaker 1: will still stay there eight hours and you just get

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Speaker 1: paid for your eight hours. If you are a normal

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Speaker 1: nurse and you work thirty six hours and the e

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Speaker 1: er is running slow, they could say, we're just canceling

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Speaker 1: you for the rest of the day, go home. We

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Speaker 1: won't pay you for those classics hours. And so, like

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Speaker 1: we've always had pretty like flexible, like we've never had

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Speaker 1: like most of the places I've worked, I've never had

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Speaker 1: guaranteed hours. And so one of the reasons to go

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Speaker 1: to travel contracts too is also so you can at

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Speaker 1: least have guaranteed hours. So there's a lot of kind

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Speaker 1: of protections that nurses have never really had, like guaranteed hours, UM,

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Speaker 1: like staff ratios, so some states California and organ or

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Speaker 1: um two of them. If you go into the I

393
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Speaker 1: c U, which is the highest level of care, so

394
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:09,200
Speaker 1: people are actively dying, actively unstable, things can go bad

395
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Speaker 1: within seconds. Usually it's a one nurse will have two

396
00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,320
Speaker 1: patients UM, which is pretty much all you can handle

397
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Speaker 1: because they're on multiple trips, multiple types of life's the

398
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Speaker 1: part keeping them alive. So ventilators UM being the one

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Speaker 1: that we see the most UM, and it's really your

400
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,960
Speaker 1: responsibility to know every inch of that person's body UM

401
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:31,960
Speaker 1: and everything going on with them, and you really direct

402
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:35,440
Speaker 1: a lot of their care UM. So two to one

403
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,240
Speaker 1: kind of makes a lot of sense since the pandemic

404
00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:40,720
Speaker 1: and not having enough nurses, sometimes that's slid to three

405
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,360
Speaker 1: to one or even in bad situations four to one.

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Speaker 1: So one of the statistics that UM. One of the

407
00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,480
Speaker 1: kind of nurse influencers and comedians Nurse Blake talks about

408
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,680
Speaker 1: UM is that for every additional patient that a nurse

409
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Speaker 1: takes on and I believe he's talking about medstart not

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Speaker 1: I su that patients UM mortality increases by seven percent.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, so asking a nurse to do more with

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Speaker 1: less is not just like hey, just suck it up,

413
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Speaker 1: be busier. This is actively contributing to people's disability and

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Speaker 1: early deaths. So one of the things that the millionaiurse

415
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Speaker 1: march Um wants to talk about is man man dated

416
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Speaker 1: staffing ratios. So I see you would be two to one.

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Speaker 1: MED starch is usually four to one. I think you

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Speaker 1: are they're asking for three to one UM. So these

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Speaker 1: have been studied by the American Nurses Association UM and

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Speaker 1: other sort of UM nursing organizations UM. And not only

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Speaker 1: do they make your job as a nurse so much

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Speaker 1: better because we go into nursing because we want to

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Speaker 1: fix things and take care of people. We want good outcomes,

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Speaker 1: right Like, you don't go into nursing to just run

425
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Speaker 1: around with your head cut off and watch everyone die,

426
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Speaker 1: right Like, that's terrible. You go into nursing because you

427
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,040
Speaker 1: want the people to get better under your care, and

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Speaker 1: you want to be able to give them that. And

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Speaker 1: so when you're asked to take care of more patients

430
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 1: than you're able to, you're not able to do that

431
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,680
Speaker 1: and it's just crushes you. UM. So not only is

432
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:14,119
Speaker 1: it better for nurse satisfaction, it also saves patients lives

433
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:18,719
Speaker 1: and also prevents things that will give cause lasting disability

434
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 1: like ventilator associated pneumonia or bed sores or delirium, things

435
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:28,359
Speaker 1: like that. So you know, mandating UM patient ratios is

436
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:30,880
Speaker 1: one of the really big things that the Million Nurse

437
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 1: Marks is for Um, there's a lot of talk about

438
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:37,680
Speaker 1: pay and living wages. You know, like every section. Housing

439
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,920
Speaker 1: prices and inflation have gone through the roof because you've

440
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,119
Speaker 1: got to like be renting a spot whenever you're like

441
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,359
Speaker 1: the hospital only putting you up right well, and for

442
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 1: staff nurses to write like if you're you know, maybe

443
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,440
Speaker 1: you're maybe they gave you a two percent raise, but hey,

444
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:56,679
Speaker 1: rent increase. UM. I used to be on the interview

445
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 1: board at my old hospital and we would just tell

446
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 1: people like, if you're moving to at Denver as a

447
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 1: single person, we lose most of our nurses because they

448
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:05,640
Speaker 1: haven't looked at housing. So like they'll accept a job

449
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 1: and then they'll look for a place to live and

450
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,439
Speaker 1: be like, oh, I can't afford to live here. So hey, like,

451
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 1: I mean, we can't ask if you're single moving here,

452
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 1: but like you probably can't afford to live here with

453
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:20,639
Speaker 1: what we're going to pay you. I mean, cool, I I.

454
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 1: It's just it's so eternally frustrating that like the one

455
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 1: thing that everybody, when you sit them down, agrees is

456
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 1: incontrovertibly necessary medical care. Um. We can agree on a

457
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 1: lot of things, but not how to make sure that

458
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 1: people doing it have a good quality of life and

459
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 1: good income, Like we can. We have all these fun,

460
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 1: fun rules that make it possible to charge X number

461
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,479
Speaker 1: of thousand dollars for a dose of insulin um, But

462
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 1: we don't just have a law that's like, hey, if

463
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 1: if you're working full time as a nurse, uh, maybe

464
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,159
Speaker 1: you shouldn't have to be housing insecure. I don't know

465
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 1: how do you make that into a law, but it

466
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 1: seems like there should be some option for a country

467
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 1: that can make some of the things we make. Yeah,

468
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 1: I mean tying wages to housing prices. It seems like

469
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 1: I don't know, not being an economist and not being

470
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,359
Speaker 1: an administrator, like that sounds super easy to me, Like

471
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 1: goes everybody gets a fifteen percent race, Like I'm sure

472
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,639
Speaker 1: it's more complicated than that, but it seems super simple

473
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 1: to send you guy around with a stick to threaten

474
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,679
Speaker 1: landlords when they raise rent. Like there's we can debate

475
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:34,440
Speaker 1: the answers to this. What do you think I mean,

476
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 1: not not that like you have any sort of comprehensive

477
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 1: knowledge of all of the people doing this, but like,

478
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,440
Speaker 1: do you think there's a possibility of like a wildcat strike,

479
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 1: which is again for people who maybe aren't is when

480
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:50,120
Speaker 1: there's a strike of workers who are not unionized. UM.

481
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 1: I mean to some extent, with everybody quitting to do

482
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 1: travel nursing, it's not so different. I mean some students

483
00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 1: have lost of their staff. Yeah, some like when a

484
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 1: unit says, oh, well, the last of my staff, I'm

485
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 1: kind of like, well, you did better than most, you know. UM.

486
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: So in some ways it's already happening. And in that

487
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 1: same way, I am seeing hospitals give better extent incentives

488
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 1: to their nurses that have stayed um, either retention bonuses

489
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: or UM increasing bonuses for pick for core staff, picking

490
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,439
Speaker 1: up extra shifts, UM, or kind of other perks like

491
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,879
Speaker 1: increasing education benefits or things like that. So I think

492
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,919
Speaker 1: hospitals are responding to like, hey, we don't want to

493
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,119
Speaker 1: lose these people to traveling, Like can we tip the

494
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 1: balance a little bit? And I think, you know, overall

495
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 1: hospital leadership is moving slower than they need to UM.

496
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 1: But I mean at least they're moving a little bit.

497
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:49,880
Speaker 1: So I mean it's in that way I can see

498
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 1: a wildcat strike UM, just coming from the kind of

499
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 1: labor forces at play UM. And I could and I

500
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 1: mean there were one the hospitals in the South, I

501
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 1: think it was Alabama. All of their staff, their staff coordinated, um,

502
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,400
Speaker 1: so that the ship that was on agreed to stay

503
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 1: late because you can't because abandoning patients, Um, you can

504
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: put your license at risk. Right, So we all walked

505
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:17,920
Speaker 1: off in the middle of a shift and said fuck

506
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 1: you to the hospital. Patients died then, like our licenses

507
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 1: at risk. So we also have to kind of balance

508
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 1: that a little bit. But there was a hospital they

509
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 1: organized for the day shift basically to stay as late

510
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 1: as they needed, and night shift all stood outside of

511
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 1: the hospital and I wouldn't refuse to clock it in.

512
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 1: So sometimes these things are happening in small levels. Um.

513
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 1: Also um really interesting, yeah, because it is like yeah, um,

514
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 1: I mean, and that is like such a tough thing

515
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 1: to balance. Just the idea that like, well, you are

516
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: health care workers, like withholding your labor is a thing

517
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 1: that's going to be necessary from time to time. There's

518
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: also consequences for it that are not present if you're

519
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:04,360
Speaker 1: making I don't know, tires, you know. Yeah, And as

520
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: much as teachers and nurses are the same, like I

521
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 1: don't think our country cares about educating children as much

522
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: as it cares about their parents dying, you know, like

523
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:20,359
Speaker 1: for better or worse. Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's another subject. UM.

524
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 1: Is there anything else you wanted to get into today? Um?

525
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 1: Before we we close out for the for the episode? UM,

526
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 1: I mean, if it's okay with you and you can

527
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 1: cut it if it's not. UM. You know, I try

528
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:35,640
Speaker 1: and tweet about kind of what's happening on the ground

529
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 1: and the things that I'm seeing. UM. And I'm mostly

530
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: finished with a book about the first year on the

531
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 1: front line and seven different hospitals and kind of the

532
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 1: disparities between you know, critical access in New Mexico versus

533
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 1: trauma hospitals in you know, the Bay Area, and kind

534
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 1: of what that first year looked like. UM. So if

535
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: you want, you can follow me on Twitter. UM. It's

536
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 1: an A N N E like and of green gables

537
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 1: and urn, which is when I started traveling nursing, um,

538
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 1: you know, and so that I kind of talked a

539
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,479
Speaker 1: little bit about like what I'm seeing and what's going on. UM.

540
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: I was recently in an ear where you know, people

541
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 1: often had to stay outside under the heat lamps for

542
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: thirty hours waiting for hospital bed just because everything was impacked,

543
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 1: so they couldn't even come inside the hospital and they

544
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 1: were you know, waiting, um to get their appendix out

545
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 1: and things like that. Again, where your seatbelts and a helmet,

546
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: be real, be real careful right now, guys, right um?

547
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 1: And I mean I think the other thing is the

548
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: blood shortage. Um, So most hospitals are revising their guidelines

549
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: of who won't get a blood transfusion, so you now

550
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 1: have to be much more critical before they will give

551
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 1: you a blood transfusion. So, um, there's a lot of

552
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 1: politics around blood donation, but if you feel like you

553
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: can donate blood, um, it's really desperately needed. And people

554
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 1: are gonna where your seats because people are really going

555
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 1: to legitimately die because we run out of blood. Yeah,

556
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: um boy, how do you please wear your seatbelts folks, Um,

557
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: just just hunker down for a little while. No, no

558
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 1: new risky experiments in life for just a minute. Not

559
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: the time to take up skydiving. Yeah yeah, maybe avoid that.

560
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 1: Maybe don't go skiing, uh if you haven't gone skiing before. Um,

561
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 1: I just did that and broke my wrist because I'm

562
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: I'm exactly as dumb as the people. I'm trying to

563
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: warn and then I guess just check in with your

564
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 1: mental with your the mental health of your health care workers,

565
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 1: because I mean, so many people have you know, I

566
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 1: think a lot of us are dealing with at least

567
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: passive sort of like fuck, maybe I should just drive

568
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: off the road instead of going into work today sort

569
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: of thoughts, you know. And oh, for a lot of us,

570
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 1: that's just defleeting thought and then we get our ship together.

571
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: But for some people it's going to be more than that.

572
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 1: And you know, nursing is one of those things where

573
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: people have to find themselves by their career and they

574
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 1: need to pull in their lives saying like if you

575
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: are never a nurse again, you are still valued, you

576
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 1: are still loved. Just being alive, it's enough, and this

577
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 1: is how you know we can help take care of

578
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 1: you if you need to quit for three months, you know,

579
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 1: um and supporting people with their intrinsic value rather than

580
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: like you are only productive and valuable because you were

581
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 1: there saving lives. Because I think a lot of us

582
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: really get stuck in that, and a lot of us

583
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 1: are drawn into nursing because we feel some lack of

584
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 1: worthiness without it, you know, well, that's the hard thing

585
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 1: to get other people to do, because in part this

586
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 1: is a society where we just have such generally crummy

587
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 1: attitudes towards mental health. But like we're great at at

588
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 1: saying things like, oh, you know, there's a pandemic. Our

589
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 1: healthcare workers are heroes. You're all heroes because of the

590
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 1: work that you're doing. The work makes you a hero,

591
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 1: as opposed to saying, hey, thank you for doing that.

592
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 1: I know things are still fucked up right now, but

593
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 1: if you decide you got to like take a break

594
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: or whatever, you know, you're you're you're, that doesn't mean

595
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: you like what you did was still wonderful and you're

596
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: still great and valuable, and maybe the best thing is

597
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: for you to take that break and not drive yourself

598
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 1: off of a cliff. Yeah, yeah, that's that's harder to

599
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: get people to like way of banners that say outside

600
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: of their apartment complexes, right banging on pots, to like

601
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 1: let healthcare workers know that no matter what they do,

602
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 1: their valued members of the community that people love. Um.

603
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 1: But yeah, all right, well, and thank you so much

604
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: for talking with us today. UM. I hope, uh you

605
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 1: you hold together and help the people in your life

606
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: hold together, which is all any of us can really

607
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 1: do other than we're a seatbelt. Yeah, and thank you

608
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 1: for being a part of the conversation, and thank you

609
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 1: for you know, listening to hard things. And you know

610
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: that's one thing that I think we really appreciate. It

611
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,479
Speaker 1: is to people who will actually listen with open hearts

612
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: and will witness this with us so that we're in

613
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: on a loan in it kick off to the biggest

614
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,080
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615
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00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 1: call eight seven seven eight hope and why, or text

645
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Speaker 1: hope and why for six seven three six nine. Okay,

646
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Speaker 1: it's de lieva. I'm here to tell you about my

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649
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650
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Speaker 1: and the obstacles life has thrown at them. But going

651
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Speaker 1: deep with people revolutionizing not just their own industries, but

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Speaker 1: also culture more broadly. From Lisa Today, the author redefining

653
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657
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Speaker 1: all of this and more with you. Listen to do

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Speaker 1: a Leap at your Service on the I Heart Radio app,

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Speaker 1: know about, and we're here to change that. I'm April, Din'tit,

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Speaker 1: the host of the new podcast Navigating Adoption presented by

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Speaker 1: adopt us Kids. Each episode brings you compelling, real life

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669
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Speaker 1: brought to you by the U. S. Department of Health

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Speaker 1: and Human Services, Administration for Children and Families and the

672
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 1: ACT Council. It could happen. Here is the podcast that

673
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 1: you're listening to right now. I'm Robert Evans. All right,

674
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 1: that's that's my job done. Who what are we? What

675
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 1: are we doing? What are we doing today? Hey? What's up? Hey? Andrew?

676
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:27,839
Speaker 1: Back at it again with another podcast. UM. Today, we're

677
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 1: doing something a little bit different from the previous episodes

678
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 1: that I've done. We're having a bit more of an

679
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:39,240
Speaker 1: open discussion about sitting book that has been passed around

680
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 1: for about a decade now and has polarized UM members

681
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:52,319
Speaker 1: of the anarchist community. UM can put it that way. UM.

682
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:56,800
Speaker 1: Today we'll be talking about the book the infamous uh

683
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 1: pollemic Dessert by anonymal Us. For those who, uh, you know,

684
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 1: not aware of this extremely controversial text, Desert is a

685
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 1: nihilist anarchist text for this published in two thousand eleven

686
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: that is mainly directed at other anarchists and seeks to

687
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 1: address issues of climate collapse and revolution. It became somewhat

688
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 1: of a meme to tell folks to read Dessert. I'm

689
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:32,839
Speaker 1: not sure when that was, but I just remember seeing

690
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:38,919
Speaker 1: it a lot um I think in yeah around read

691
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,840
Speaker 1: Desert became a name, yeah yeah, all over Twitter and

692
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 1: Instagram and credit. But of course, being a thing that

693
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 1: exists on the Internet, people who naturally became torn on

694
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:58,399
Speaker 1: the subject of it. And so there are a lot

695
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 1: of perspectives and innions and think pieces about Desert, some

696
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 1: more or less accurate than others. But we are here

697
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:11,479
Speaker 1: to discuss the book, all personal experiences reading it, things

698
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 1: we think it gets right and wrong, and what we

699
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 1: could potentially looen going forward. So I would say the

700
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 1: floor is yours, whoever wants to go first. I mean,

701
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 1: I'm a huge fan of the quote that the book

702
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: takes it, or that the that it takes its name from,

703
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: which comes from you know, Tacitus, who was a dude

704
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 1: writing in the Roman period um and the exact quote

705
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 1: that it comes from is and he's talking Tacitus is

706
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 1: talking about the Roman Empire, robbers of the world. Now

707
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 1: that the earth is insufficient for their all devastating hands,

708
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,279
Speaker 1: they probe even the sea. If their enemy is rich,

709
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 1: they are greedy. If he is poor, they thirst for dominion.

710
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 1: Neither East nor West has satisfied them a loan of mankind.

711
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 1: They are equally covetous of poverty and wealth, robbery, slaughter,

712
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: and plunder. They falsely name empire. They make a desert

713
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 1: and they call it peace. Huh, good ass quote. It

714
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 1: is a it is a solid Yeah, And obviously I

715
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 1: think people living in the shadows of every empire that's

716
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 1: ever existed can identify with that quote. Um, it's it's

717
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 1: a powerful kind of central idea to hang your extended essay.

718
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 1: I don't really know what the best term to refer

719
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 1: to it as all. It's it's it's a long essay. Yeah,

720
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 1: it's a very long essay. As we talked about kind

721
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 1: of coming into this, it's extremely two thousand tens um

722
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 1: three Arabs spring pre all the big uprisings and revolts

723
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 1: we had in twenty nineteen, and Um, there's definitely some

724
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 1: stuff that it gets very right, and I think kind

725
00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 1: of One of the ways in which it's had an

726
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,800
Speaker 1: impact on me is kind of I've I've thought about

727
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 1: what happens to sort of culture as the result of

728
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 1: this kind of Hollywood engine that is heavily tied up

729
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:14,719
Speaker 1: with the United States military Industrial complex, UM, as a

730
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 1: process of desertification of ideas and the ability to like

731
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 1: conceive of of of new futures. UM. That said, I

732
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 1: I don't really I haven't reread it in a very

733
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 1: long time and haven't really felt um called to in

734
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 1: in many ways because I do think I don't know.

735
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 1: I think there's an extent to which it's been kind

736
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 1: of left behind. UM. Yeah, some of the things that

737
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 1: have happened since I think Yeah. UM, I will say

738
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 1: that as someone who really came into my owners an

739
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 1: archist in like, although I had identified with it before, UM,

740
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 1: when I had read the book, UM, I think it

741
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 1: was in late late so I read the book first

742
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:11,879
Speaker 1: time I read it, and honestly, UM, it was some good,

743
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:17,279
Speaker 1: some bad, some some very outdated stuff, and also some

744
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 1: stuff that I don't know, maybe the author felt it

745
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 1: was like groundbreak and at the time, but you know,

746
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 1: at this present stage just feels like common knowledge sense,

747
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 1: you know, I mean it was. It was groundbreaking in

748
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 1: a way for like climate realism, right, like this was

749
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 1: this was written before you know, this is written before

750
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:50,479
Speaker 1: climate Leavy. This was written before um the Uninhabitable Earth.

751
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 1: This was written before a lot of kind of the

752
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 1: texts that view climate change is an absolute like this

753
00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,800
Speaker 1: was written one year before hyper Objects. Just really interesting actually,

754
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 1: because you know, the whole preface of that book is

755
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 1: that climate changes is done, like it happened, where we're

756
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 1: like there's no turning back the clock. And the Desert

757
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 1: was written even before that, Like it was. It was

758
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 1: one of the first things. Now and of course it's

759
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:16,920
Speaker 1: it's it's much more niche, but like it was if

760
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 1: I if I look back in books that have like

761
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,719
Speaker 1: impacted me, it was it's one of the first books

762
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 1: like that came out, like timeline wise to take climate changes, like, yeah,

763
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 1: it's there's no saving it, like there's no living in

764
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 1: the two thousands, there's no living in the nineties. Again,

765
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,919
Speaker 1: it's like things are like the world's not going to end,

766
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:38,319
Speaker 1: but things are going to get worse, right like and

767
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 1: that and that is kind of a big, big part

768
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 1: of the book because it's it's also it's also not

769
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 1: pro collapse like it it doesn't take collapse is an absolute.

770
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:50,280
Speaker 1: It doesn't take. It doesn't it doesn't subscribe to global collapse.

771
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:52,840
Speaker 1: And that's one of the misconceptions I think people have

772
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 1: about them. Yeah, that they's assume it is like this

773
00:42:56,120 --> 00:43:00,359
Speaker 1: collapse dumorous, like miss rupic kind of text, but which

774
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 1: I did not read it as that. I first read

775
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 1: it around the same time you did, um And I

776
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:07,720
Speaker 1: read it as a part of a lot of books

777
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 1: I was reading to prep for the show when we

778
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 1: when we were writing our first five episodes on like

779
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 1: on climate change and like the crumbles. So I read it,

780
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,360
Speaker 1: read it as a part of my kind of general

781
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 1: research and yeah, like at that point it was already

782
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 1: kind of mimified to be like, you know, like an

783
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 1: anarcho nihilist like Dumer manifesto, and I read it, I'm like,

784
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: that's not what it's saying at all. It's actually once

785
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,879
Speaker 1: I read it, I was like, I was really taking

786
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:42,320
Speaker 1: it back at how how easily um popular perceptions of

787
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 1: a piece of media good um, I mean honestly corrupted

788
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 1: beyond recognition. Yeah, you know, like if people are a

789
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,720
Speaker 1: bunch people are telling you know that it's that about

790
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,319
Speaker 1: is in texts or whatever. You know, it's kind of

791
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 1: shake It kind of shakes you up to like actually

792
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 1: consumed for yourself off and then read eyes. How did

793
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 1: you all get that? Yeah? How did you read that?

794
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,239
Speaker 1: It is really interesting because I'm not even sure if

795
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:08,719
Speaker 1: they did read out of it or if that was

796
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 1: the perception they had going into it. So they read

797
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 1: it through that lens, and that lens basically you know,

798
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 1: changed the text in their heads to fit that thing.

799
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 1: Because it is really interesting how how it is so

800
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:23,320
Speaker 1: associated with like dumerism um yet if you like, engage

801
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:25,920
Speaker 1: in good faith with the text. It's very much not

802
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 1: a Doumer manifesto anyway, although there are aspects of it

803
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 1: that I am um that I think attitude wise, that

804
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 1: I am critical of. But I think Chris was going

805
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:37,320
Speaker 1: to say something, yeah, so I was just like, I,

806
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:40,360
Speaker 1: I really I've always not liked this book, Like I

807
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 1: read it back, and I think she doesn't een when

808
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 1: it was first sort of like coming back, yeah, And

809
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 1: I didn't like it then, and I read it this

810
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 1: morning and I like it even less now than I

811
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 1: did then, And I think I think I actually, I

812
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,760
Speaker 1: actually okay, so like, I think it's true that most

813
00:44:57,840 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 1: of the text doesn't do the duomer thing. But I

814
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 1: think I nderstand where people got it from, because you know,

815
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 1: you have quotes in this like uh here, here's one.

816
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 1: Yet I can already hear the accusations from my own camp,

817
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:11,320
Speaker 1: accusations of deserting the cause of revolution, deserting the struggle

818
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 1: for another world. Such accusations are correct, I would rejoin

819
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 1: that such millinarian and progressive myths are at the core

820
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 1: of the expansion of power. And this is this is

821
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 1: what I really like, I think from an ecological perspective,

822
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 1: it's sort of okay. I strongly dislike Desert as an

823
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:29,879
Speaker 1: anarchist text because I think that's just wrong. I think,

824
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 1: I think, I think there's there there's there's there's an

825
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:37,360
Speaker 1: ingrained defeatism in it that is so strong that it

826
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 1: it it just it like warps the author's perception of

827
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 1: the past, like you get these things where he's talking

828
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:45,319
Speaker 1: about these these kind of he's talking about like the

829
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:47,799
Speaker 1: you know what you call the classical anarchist movement from

830
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 1: roughly like eighteen seventy two really sort of ends with

831
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:53,880
Speaker 1: the defeat of the anarchists in Spain and like seven

832
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:56,399
Speaker 1: and and he you know, they say things like from

833
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 1: Spain pre nineteen thirty six to the Jewish anarchists in

834
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 1: North America, the legalist of France, and the Italian and

835
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 1: Anarcho synicst of Argentina. The inhabitants of anarchist counter societies

836
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 1: were always, by definition active minorities. The minorities may have

837
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,920
Speaker 1: gotten larger in an instructionary moments, but they remained at

838
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:16,760
Speaker 1: minorities always, and that's just wrong. It's it's factually wrong.

839
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 1: Like these these movements were not minorities, like the like

840
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 1: the entire like the like the the largest union in

841
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:26,800
Speaker 1: France was the CG like in the early Action hundred

842
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 1: was the the you do see it this deep that

843
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:36,840
Speaker 1: all all of the French, Spanish and Portuguese country speaking

844
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 1: countries have a they have one union that's called the

845
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:40,720
Speaker 1: U G C and one union it's called the CGT.

846
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:42,839
Speaker 1: And I can't remember which ones which, but like like

847
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:44,800
Speaker 1: that was that was the largest union in France, and

848
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 1: it was a syndicalist union right like it was like

849
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 1: and there's you know the same thing with Argentina, right

850
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:51,879
Speaker 1: for a like for a while was the largest union

851
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 1: in Argentina. And I think, and this, this is sort

852
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 1: of my problem with this, which is that you know,

853
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:00,080
Speaker 1: this is a person who's basically like they talked, but

854
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:01,960
Speaker 1: like they are born in the seventies and they've they've

855
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:05,360
Speaker 1: they're writing this Steals in eleven in just the midst

856
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:07,719
Speaker 1: of the collapse of sort of like the complete and

857
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 1: total destruction of the old anarchist movement, right, the anarchist

858
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 1: movement that had been born out of sort of like

859
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 1: the Zapatistas and the anti globalization movements. And they've been

860
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 1: beaten so badly that you know, I mean, they were crushed,

861
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:24,760
Speaker 1: they were completely destroyed, and they've been beaten so badly

862
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 1: that they they can't they literally can't imagine winning and

863
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 1: think that like like revolution in general, like is essentially

864
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:36,360
Speaker 1: a secular theology. They repeat this over and over and

865
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 1: over again. It's like revolution is theology, Revolution is a myth.

866
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:41,839
Speaker 1: And it's like and this is this is something that's

867
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:44,319
Speaker 1: just a product of defeat. It's not a product of

868
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 1: sort of taking seriously the conditions that are emerging around them.

869
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 1: And you know, I was talking about this before the

870
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 1: recording it's like right after this is written, it's you

871
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:57,840
Speaker 1: get the movement of the squares, and then you get occupied,

872
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 1: and it's like basically like major city in the world

873
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 1: goes into revolt. The revolts are anarchists inspired, and you know,

874
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 1: and and Desert like this is why Dessert vanishes for

875
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:11,320
Speaker 1: like six or seven years, because Desert is a piece

876
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:14,720
Speaker 1: that's written like it's it's it's a piece that's that's

877
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 1: only happens in a in a very specific part of

878
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:20,759
Speaker 1: a revolutionary cycle, which is when like every everything has

879
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 1: been crushed, all resistance has been crushed, everyone's losing hope,

880
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 1: and then everyone starts reading Desert again, and then the

881
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:31,839
Speaker 1: revolutions restart, and and at that point, like once once

882
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 1: once there's like you know, two thousand people in the

883
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 1: streets again like fighting the cops, it becomes less and

884
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 1: less sort of like like that that part of its

885
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 1: analysis becomes less and less relevant, until you know, inevitably

886
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:46,839
Speaker 1: everyone like there's there's a defeat, and then everyone goes

887
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 1: sort of like and I think I think that's why

888
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:51,360
Speaker 1: it has the duomer rep because it's it's it's the

889
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 1: text that people read when you've been beaten in the streets. See, Yeah,

890
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,799
Speaker 1: that's that's an interesting look at it, because I mean

891
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 1: I definitely agree with the revolution is an idea, like

892
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 1: is a myth thing, like I I specifically within the

893
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 1: context of the United States, which I believe that's what

894
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 1: the books trying to mostly focus on. They do bring

895
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 1: up other parts of the world and stuff. Um, but

896
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:18,800
Speaker 1: it's definitely written by in a by an American like citizen,

897
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:21,760
Speaker 1: and that that that is I mean, I mean that

898
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 1: that could actually be wrong. Um. It may not be

899
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 1: written by an American, but I in terms of reading it,

900
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:30,280
Speaker 1: it is kind of through like a very like Western

901
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 1: lens of like revolutions not happening here. Um. And I

902
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,920
Speaker 1: definitely sympathize and agree with that viewpoint. And I mean

903
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 1: if if you're in a point of being like it

904
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:41,799
Speaker 1: was two US and eleven then occupied happened and like yeah,

905
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 1: but occupied in't. But that that also fits like every

906
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:47,279
Speaker 1: every attempt has not succeeded in this country to to

907
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:50,040
Speaker 1: get any kind of big, meaningful change that we can

908
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 1: push towards something that's like post capitalist. Um. So yeah,

909
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 1: I mean I do think I think it's it's it's

910
00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:01,320
Speaker 1: it's mostly targeting people specifically like commun nests um or

911
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 1: marks Lendonests who like are just waiting around for the

912
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 1: revolution to happen and then don't do anything like that, right,

913
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:10,440
Speaker 1: that is that but but but but but I think

914
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:12,239
Speaker 1: this is this is why it's a text that's like

915
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:16,880
Speaker 1: that's not good for the moment, because our problem isn't that, like,

916
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:19,319
Speaker 1: like the problem right now isn't that there's no one

917
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:22,240
Speaker 1: like there's no uprising on the horizon, Like everyone's completely

918
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 1: beaten down. No one's ever gonna go into his treats again.

919
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:27,879
Speaker 1: Our problem is that like there's just there's there's there's

920
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:31,400
Speaker 1: there's periodic uprisings everywhere, and every single time everyone is

921
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:33,840
Speaker 1: caught off guard, and every single time, no one is

922
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 1: able to actually sort of mobilize off of it, and

923
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:39,439
Speaker 1: you know, like like like no, no on, no one's

924
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 1: been able to like pivot it into something that's actually

925
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 1: like transformative. But but but but I think that that's a

926
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:49,799
Speaker 1: very different problem then the problem that desert is because

927
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:52,600
Speaker 1: desert has already abandoned the possibility that an uprising can win.

928
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 1: That's I mean, it's yeah, and then let's specifically been

929
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:00,920
Speaker 1: the idea of like global revolution shan right, that is,

930
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 1: that is the thing that specifically targeting. They're saying smaller

931
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 1: specific they're saying like smaller local things actually can't succeed

932
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. But they're trying to tie

933
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:13,879
Speaker 1: this idea of global revolution is like a pacifying idea, right,

934
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:16,399
Speaker 1: just waiting around for this to happen, and tying that

935
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 1: to this at the time, which more niche idea Now

936
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 1: it's now it's way more popular. But this idea of

937
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 1: like global collapse and how people think if they can

938
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:28,320
Speaker 1: people think believing in global collapse is smarter than believing

939
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 1: in global revolution. They think it's more realistic. But the

940
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:33,440
Speaker 1: book saying no, this is this idea of global collapse

941
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:36,880
Speaker 1: actually falls under all the same issues that global revolution has.

942
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:40,959
Speaker 1: I think i'd want to um sort of comments here

943
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 1: um with regard to like the defeatist sort of reading

944
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 1: um in the text. I understand that reading um I

945
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:53,239
Speaker 1: mean perasonally I distinguished like defeatism and dumerism. And I

946
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:57,239
Speaker 1: always think, like my own personality and my own perspective

947
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:01,359
Speaker 1: kind of like inoculates me in a way from like

948
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 1: adopting that kind of defeatist attitude towards um. You know, change.

949
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 1: But I don't think the book is entirely um, you know,

950
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 1: dismissive of like revolution um. It just I think the

951
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 1: main thrust of it is that it's critically the idea

952
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 1: of like one global revolution, one global collapse. What it

953
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:28,440
Speaker 1: really emphasizes is that, you know, climate change brings new

954
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:33,280
Speaker 1: possibilities for new anarchies plural to develop worldwide and response

955
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:37,920
Speaker 1: changing circumstances. But at the same time, you know, in

956
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 1: some areas things are going to get worse than some

957
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 1: areas things are going to get better. And it's not

958
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:49,080
Speaker 1: that really one broadbrush could be applied to the entire earth. Well,

959
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 1: but I think, I mean, I think like this this

960
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 1: is another thing that they're really guilty of, especially like

961
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:56,719
Speaker 1: there's an entire section in here where they just keep

962
00:52:56,719 --> 00:53:00,160
Speaker 1: writing about Africa and it's like well, and then you know,

963
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:01,840
Speaker 1: and they'll get pressed on it and they'll be like, no, no,

964
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 1: we mean sub Saharan Africa, and it's like, what are

965
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:08,479
Speaker 1: you talking like. They they won't name countries, they won't

966
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:11,000
Speaker 1: name movements, they won't name people. It's just they'll just

967
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 1: write something about the whole of Sub Saharan Africa, and

968
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:16,960
Speaker 1: it's just like, well, I think that's evidence of the

969
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 1: kind of of what Garrison was talking about. This, right,

970
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:21,640
Speaker 1: and this is something you see all over the place

971
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:25,560
Speaker 1: with people writing about politics, with people trying to write

972
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:29,280
Speaker 1: about like particularly revolutionary politics, UM in a global sense.

973
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:31,480
Speaker 1: And I think it's usually a mistake to do that,

974
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:34,919
Speaker 1: UM for the reasons we've kind of discussed. Any time

975
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:37,200
Speaker 1: I see a left wing even as somebody who I

976
00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:40,360
Speaker 1: think is generally on point, who starts talking about, for example,

977
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 1: like extending their theories about revolutionary politics to places I

978
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:45,920
Speaker 1: happen to know just a little bit about, it's always

979
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:48,760
Speaker 1: very clear like, oh, you don't know shit about Syria.

980
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 1: Oh you don't know shit about Libya. Oh you don't

981
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:55,640
Speaker 1: know shit about Angle like um. And that's and that's

982
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 1: like not even a moral failing, it's just that it's

983
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:02,000
Speaker 1: impost It's it's impossible really to have in depth knowledge

984
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:04,160
Speaker 1: of like what's actually going on in those places and

985
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:06,400
Speaker 1: what's going on in those revolutions. It's why people default

986
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:09,279
Speaker 1: so much to the whole Well, whatever side the US

987
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 1: is on must be the bad side, and whatever side

988
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:12,960
Speaker 1: the Russians on must be the good side. It's the

989
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:16,360
Speaker 1: easiest way to look at that ship. UM, I don't.

990
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:19,759
Speaker 1: I think that's I think that's a worthwhile critique to make,

991
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:22,440
Speaker 1: and it's a critique to make any time that it happens.

992
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 1: Um I I agree with Garrison and with Andrew that

993
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:31,759
Speaker 1: I think the thing that is that desert gets right.

994
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:33,720
Speaker 1: Um And the thing that I've seen in my own

995
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:37,440
Speaker 1: life is that like the opportunities we should be looking

996
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:41,360
Speaker 1: for are not suddenly that some sort of global revolution

997
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:43,560
Speaker 1: sweeps all of the things we don't like out of

998
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:49,680
Speaker 1: power and magically institutes something better comprehensively across the globe.

999
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:52,239
Speaker 1: It's it's it's room for little anarchies. It's what we

1000
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 1: saw in northeast Syria, right where the government pulls out

1001
00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:58,720
Speaker 1: and people have an opportunity to do something not perfect,

1002
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:01,319
Speaker 1: but better. And I think that is That's kind of

1003
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:02,799
Speaker 1: one of the things we talked about a lot on

1004
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:05,560
Speaker 1: this show. That's why mutual aid is valuable, It's why

1005
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:09,720
Speaker 1: building these connections are valuable. It's because, um, as things crumble,

1006
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:16,279
Speaker 1: there will be opportunities two in local areas, piecemeal institute

1007
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:20,520
Speaker 1: and and push through for more just and and better

1008
00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:24,960
Speaker 1: ways of living. Um And I think that if you're

1009
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:28,520
Speaker 1: looking at kind of the broad level, potentially optimistic point

1010
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:30,279
Speaker 1: is that when you have enough of those and when

1011
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:32,560
Speaker 1: they spread well enough, and if communication is good enough,

1012
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:35,040
Speaker 1: maybe the things that work will get adopted on a

1013
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:38,799
Speaker 1: wider scale. And there's always the opportunity that when enough,

1014
00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:42,440
Speaker 1: when ideas spread far enough, they have a tipping point

1015
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:44,880
Speaker 1: and and they go viral, you know, so to speak.

1016
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:49,319
Speaker 1: But I I I don't. I think that while there's

1017
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:51,920
Speaker 1: a lot of specifics that Desert gets wrong, I do

1018
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:54,319
Speaker 1: think they were ahead of the curve and recognizing that,

1019
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:56,440
Speaker 1: and I think it's it's a more productive way to

1020
00:55:56,520 --> 00:56:00,560
Speaker 1: look at the idea of revolutionary change. Then we're going

1021
00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 1: to finally have nineteen seventeen. But everywhere, you know, with

1022
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:09,319
Speaker 1: regards of the African chapter, the impression that I got

1023
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:13,600
Speaker 1: while reading that chapter, and I think the book itself

1024
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:19,080
Speaker 1: references Um Samba Um, I got the impression that the

1025
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:23,600
Speaker 1: author had read Um Afrighan anarchism History of a movement

1026
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:27,879
Speaker 1: by sam Member and they were just kind of like

1027
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:31,200
Speaker 1: inspired by that, I would say, because as I do

1028
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:36,200
Speaker 1: point out, they didn't like specify the specific cultures, which

1029
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:40,239
Speaker 1: is an issue considering, you know, the tendency that Westerners

1030
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:43,080
Speaker 1: have of you know, being to Africa this large brush

1031
00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:47,160
Speaker 1: as if it's you know, all one way or the other. Um.

1032
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:53,399
Speaker 1: But I think what we do see now, um is

1033
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 1: you know, from the Horn of Africa to South Africa

1034
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 1: to Nigeria too, I mean recently Sudan. I believe, Um,

1035
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:07,000
Speaker 1: there are Africans, smaller number organizing under the mount of anarchism,

1036
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:10,759
Speaker 1: and they are anarchic elements that continue to persist on

1037
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:16,680
Speaker 1: the continent. Yeah, I mean I think that's like, you know,

1038
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:18,320
Speaker 1: I mean one of the things that they sort of

1039
00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 1: got they got right, was about how like this the

1040
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:22,480
Speaker 1: sort of the the sort of renewal the spread of

1041
00:57:22,560 --> 00:57:25,880
Speaker 1: urban anarchism they're talking about like Chile in particular, they

1042
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:32,240
Speaker 1: got right, Um, Indonesia Bangladeshtra somewhat. But but but I

1043
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 1: think I think there's there's another like my, my, my, my,

1044
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:39,959
Speaker 1: my biggest issue with them in terms of the way

1045
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:42,680
Speaker 1: they think about ecological stuff that this comes this is

1046
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:46,480
Speaker 1: something they talk about with like they have this thing

1047
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:50,720
Speaker 1: where they think that forger societies are like, Okay, they're they're, they're, they're,

1048
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:53,160
Speaker 1: they're they're more careful than most people. To frame it

1049
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:56,800
Speaker 1: as like the forging societies can be a galitarian but

1050
00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:01,280
Speaker 1: I think they they they wind talking about these sort

1051
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:04,560
Speaker 1: of like the way that sort of forging nomadic society

1052
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:06,600
Speaker 1: sort of inherently defy the boundaries of the state, and

1053
00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:11,360
Speaker 1: like that's true. But you can also have like nomadic

1054
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:16,120
Speaker 1: forging societies that have are hereditary slave societies. And this

1055
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:20,000
Speaker 1: is this is a problem because there's a there's a

1056
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:23,040
Speaker 1: lot in here about that that that's about sort of

1057
00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:25,080
Speaker 1: like they're you know, they're they're taking this is sort

1058
00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 1: of like soft an anti su right. Yeah. It has

1059
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:33,720
Speaker 1: a few lines where it does specifically say civilization is

1060
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:36,200
Speaker 1: the cause of like I think it's like the civilization

1061
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:42,840
Speaker 1: is genocide, um, which yeah, and that can't silly, Yeah,

1062
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:48,320
Speaker 1: by civilizations commit genocide. Sure, if they're saying that they

1063
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:50,440
Speaker 1: do cause genocide, if you're if you're trying to make

1064
00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:54,480
Speaker 1: the case that it seems to be that civilizations, Uh, well,

1065
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:57,960
Speaker 1: I don't know every civilization does not commit genocide, but no,

1066
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:02,520
Speaker 1: but civilization gives you a constant Yeah, civilization gives you

1067
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:07,080
Speaker 1: the framework that makes genocide possible, well, like potentially contentional

1068
00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:09,600
Speaker 1: genocide possible. I don't know that I would agree with

1069
00:59:09,640 --> 00:59:12,440
Speaker 1: that because I think you see examples of genocide from

1070
00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:17,320
Speaker 1: hunter gatherers societies and from from so societies, and that

1071
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:21,000
Speaker 1: the obviously documentation on that isn't as extensive because we

1072
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:22,800
Speaker 1: weren't documenting things for a lot of it. But you

1073
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:26,360
Speaker 1: do have examples from from what we know of, like um,

1074
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:29,840
Speaker 1: the Americas of their word genocides committed by societies we

1075
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:32,560
Speaker 1: would call stateless. So I think I might argue that like,

1076
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:35,760
Speaker 1: genocide is a thing that human beings do in civilization

1077
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:38,520
Speaker 1: because it allows us to do everything on a larger scale,

1078
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:41,560
Speaker 1: allows us to do way better genocides. That's definitely in

1079
00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:44,560
Speaker 1: our think. I think. I think my problem with it

1080
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:47,120
Speaker 1: is that they're going back into this sort of like

1081
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:50,000
Speaker 1: that they're going back into the you know, there's this

1082
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:54,880
Speaker 1: inherent binarya between foragers and sales societies and that you know,

1083
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:57,560
Speaker 1: and and specifically they think that that that these sorts

1084
00:59:57,600 --> 00:59:59,760
Speaker 1: that the forager scietas are you know, inviably gonna become

1085
00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:01,560
Speaker 1: a galle Ryan. It's like that's not true, and it's

1086
01:00:01,560 --> 01:00:04,280
Speaker 1: not true in ways that you can see right now,

1087
01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:07,959
Speaker 1: in like like they're like they're like there are lots

1088
01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:10,200
Speaker 1: of places right now where you can look at you know,

1089
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:13,000
Speaker 1: forging societies that have incredibly right, but like there's there's like,

1090
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:16,280
Speaker 1: for example, you get sort of you get the Filani

1091
01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:20,280
Speaker 1: joining like right wing Islamist groups, right, and that like

1092
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:26,000
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. I think it has a problem

1093
01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:33,160
Speaker 1: with It's the same thing as looking at indigenous societies

1094
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 1: and and seeing them all on one side of the

1095
01:00:37,040 --> 01:00:39,560
Speaker 1: fight with with colonizing nations as supposed I'm reading a

1096
01:00:39,560 --> 01:00:41,600
Speaker 1: book about the history of the Mapucha right now, which

1097
01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:47,000
Speaker 1: are historically like the indigenous group in Chile that resisted

1098
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:49,120
Speaker 1: the law and the indigenous group realion, and you could

1099
01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:51,440
Speaker 1: argue in all of Latin America that resisted the longest

1100
01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:53,760
Speaker 1: and most effectively. But even then, when you look at

1101
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:56,200
Speaker 1: like the campaigns of the Chilean government in the eighteen

1102
01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:59,520
Speaker 1: sixties and eighteen eighties, large like significant chunks of the

1103
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:02,200
Speaker 1: Mapocha sided with the government against other Mapucha, and like

1104
01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:05,600
Speaker 1: that's the like it's it's always a mistake. I think

1105
01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:06,920
Speaker 1: this is a good one of the things that you

1106
01:01:06,960 --> 01:01:08,960
Speaker 1: get out of the dawn of everything. It's always a

1107
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:11,640
Speaker 1: mistake to like look at any of these groups hunter gatherers,

1108
01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:15,320
Speaker 1: stateless societies. Is like one thing or another they're people

1109
01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:20,959
Speaker 1: and some of them sucked, just like yeah there, yeah, anyway, Yeah,

1110
01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:23,480
Speaker 1: there's there's one thing that I wanted to sort of

1111
01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:28,040
Speaker 1: pushback against. Uh, Robert, you had said that genocide is

1112
01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:30,840
Speaker 1: a thing that humans do. Um. I don't think I

1113
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:36,160
Speaker 1: agree with that assessment, um in this sense, or at

1114
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:39,000
Speaker 1: least i'd rather I would like to clarify. Um, Well,

1115
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:41,120
Speaker 1: if you an opportunity to clarify what you mean by that,

1116
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:44,600
Speaker 1: I you know, I don't know that it's just humans,

1117
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:47,120
Speaker 1: but I think that genocide is a thing that as

1118
01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:51,120
Speaker 1: long as we have evidence in recorded history, it seems

1119
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:54,400
Speaker 1: like we have done not just against are not just

1120
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:58,080
Speaker 1: against other humans, but against other kind of hominid species.

1121
01:01:58,120 --> 01:02:01,600
Speaker 1: We have we have examples of things that it seems

1122
01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:04,640
Speaker 1: fair to call genocide going back further than we have

1123
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:08,000
Speaker 1: any kinds of written records. Um. You know, villages and

1124
01:02:08,040 --> 01:02:11,320
Speaker 1: the Balkans that were you know, burnt in people who

1125
01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:13,920
Speaker 1: like groups of people, tribes and whatnot, who seem to

1126
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:17,000
Speaker 1: have been killed in mass and you know, there's there's

1127
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:18,960
Speaker 1: other theories for some of that. Some of them may

1128
01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:20,680
Speaker 1: have been like people trying to stop a place we

1129
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:24,320
Speaker 1: don't plague or whatever. Like, there's not any kind of

1130
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:27,320
Speaker 1: comprehensive solidity. But what we do know is that as

1131
01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:30,080
Speaker 1: long as we have documentations of humans doing things, we

1132
01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:34,960
Speaker 1: have documentations of things that we could call genocide. I see,

1133
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:39,760
Speaker 1: I see, look into that a bit more. I appreciate

1134
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:42,720
Speaker 1: the glarification. Yeah, can I can I do a Balkans

1135
01:02:42,720 --> 01:02:47,840
Speaker 1: pivot because there's a there's a there's a thing like

1136
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:51,720
Speaker 1: like it genuinely disturbed me reading it in here about

1137
01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:56,320
Speaker 1: the Serbs during the Bosnian genocide. Were so that they're

1138
01:02:56,320 --> 01:02:59,360
Speaker 1: they're they're quoting. That's disturbing about that. Oh yeah, but

1139
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:02,720
Speaker 1: this is this is a I uh okay, So they're

1140
01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:04,840
Speaker 1: they're they're doing they're they're reading a quote from the

1141
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:07,919
Speaker 1: book Gypsies, Wars and Other Instances of the Wild where

1142
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:11,240
Speaker 1: he's talking this is about the bonding genocide. How is

1143
01:03:11,320 --> 01:03:13,320
Speaker 1: this possible in Europe at the end of the twentieth

1144
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:15,840
Speaker 1: century was the question that played obsessively through my mind.

1145
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:19,080
Speaker 1: What the war in former Yugoslavia forced us to suggest

1146
01:03:19,120 --> 01:03:21,400
Speaker 1: the fact that people proved willing to make a conscious

1147
01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:25,160
Speaker 1: and active choice to embrace regression, barbarity, a return to

1148
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:28,600
Speaker 1: the wildness. Take the serve fighters who dreamed of a

1149
01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:32,160
Speaker 1: return to the Serbia of the epic poems were quote

1150
01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:35,640
Speaker 1: there was no electricity, no computers, when the serves were

1151
01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:38,080
Speaker 1: happy and had no cities, the breeding ground of all evil.

1152
01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:41,080
Speaker 1: And then this is this is the next thing. That's

1153
01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:44,480
Speaker 1: that's the text coming back and commenting on it that

1154
01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:48,720
Speaker 1: some modern day militias reflect romantic desires, while shelling towns,

1155
01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:52,400
Speaker 1: massacring villages, and being killed in turn should neither surprise

1156
01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:57,640
Speaker 1: us nor necessarily fully invalidate romance. It does, however, suggest,

1157
01:03:57,760 --> 01:04:01,080
Speaker 1: along with the honest expression of joy destruction mouth by

1158
01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:03,680
Speaker 1: some soldiers in every war, as well as many anarchists,

1159
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:06,000
Speaker 1: that there was a coupling of some store between a

1160
01:04:06,040 --> 01:04:09,840
Speaker 1: generalized urge to destroy and disgusted at a complex human society.

1161
01:04:10,040 --> 01:04:12,800
Speaker 1: And there's there's there's another part um only later on

1162
01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:18,080
Speaker 1: they're talking about ethnic diversity and autonomy will often emerge

1163
01:04:18,120 --> 01:04:21,320
Speaker 1: both from mutual aid and community and animosity between communities.

1164
01:04:22,160 --> 01:04:23,920
Speaker 1: I like to think, and our history back this up,

1165
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:26,560
Speaker 1: that self adantified anarchists will never inflict such pain as

1166
01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:30,400
Speaker 1: Serb nationalist militias. An example I shows purposely for the Repuglicans.

1167
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:33,040
Speaker 1: But we should admit that our wish to function up

1168
01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:36,120
Speaker 1: is partly driven by the same urge to civilizational dismemberment

1169
01:04:36,120 --> 01:04:38,760
Speaker 1: that can be found in many interethnic conflicts and in

1170
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:42,680
Speaker 1: the minds of fighters more generally. And I think that's fucked.

1171
01:04:42,720 --> 01:04:50,120
Speaker 1: I think that's true. That's I think there's commenting a

1172
01:04:50,200 --> 01:04:52,440
Speaker 1: specific type of anarchist literature, which is like the make

1173
01:04:52,520 --> 01:04:55,600
Speaker 1: total destroy thing. And yeah, I definitely I have observed

1174
01:04:55,600 --> 01:04:59,439
Speaker 1: that in people the same the same urge that you're

1175
01:04:59,720 --> 01:05:05,120
Speaker 1: you're are so broken down by everything that the only

1176
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:08,160
Speaker 1: urge that is the only creative verge you have, is

1177
01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:11,920
Speaker 1: to destroy the things around you. I've seen that. I

1178
01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:15,600
Speaker 1: don't think they're necessarily celebrating that, but they're pointing out

1179
01:05:15,640 --> 01:05:18,360
Speaker 1: that that urge can be there. When I think they

1180
01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:21,280
Speaker 1: get really wrong here is that I don't think that's

1181
01:05:21,320 --> 01:05:23,720
Speaker 1: the urge that that is is like that, that's when

1182
01:05:23,720 --> 01:05:25,680
Speaker 1: when when you're dealing with inter ethnic conflict, when you're

1183
01:05:25,720 --> 01:05:27,560
Speaker 1: dealing with genocide, I don't think that's urge that's going on.

1184
01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:32,200
Speaker 1: It's specifically with the Serbs, because the Serbs, like you know, okay,

1185
01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:34,200
Speaker 1: like when when when an anarchist is doing made total

1186
01:05:34,280 --> 01:05:37,520
Speaker 1: destroy right there, you know, they're like there, there's there's

1187
01:05:37,520 --> 01:05:39,480
Speaker 1: a very specific that of things they're attacking or they're

1188
01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:41,640
Speaker 1: you know, they're attacking, builing, the attacking the physical infrastructure

1189
01:05:41,640 --> 01:05:43,880
Speaker 1: of the world. When the Serbs are doing the Bosnian

1190
01:05:43,920 --> 01:05:46,520
Speaker 1: genocide like that, they have a very specific thing they're doing,

1191
01:05:46,560 --> 01:05:51,160
Speaker 1: which is killing Bosnian Muslims. And I think that's extremely

1192
01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:55,600
Speaker 1: different urge than the sort of like I don't I

1193
01:05:55,640 --> 01:05:58,120
Speaker 1: don't think that's about sort of what it's civilizational dismemberment

1194
01:05:58,240 --> 01:06:01,520
Speaker 1: or whatever that's about is homophobia and genocide. And I

1195
01:06:01,520 --> 01:06:05,760
Speaker 1: think that's a different I think the genocidal impulse is

1196
01:06:05,760 --> 01:06:09,520
Speaker 1: a I think a very different one than this sort

1197
01:06:09,560 --> 01:06:12,200
Speaker 1: of the like the impulse to break the society that

1198
01:06:12,200 --> 01:06:14,760
Speaker 1: has harmed you. Yeah, I think it's important to draw

1199
01:06:14,800 --> 01:06:17,720
Speaker 1: a distinction between you can kill a shipload of people

1200
01:06:18,080 --> 01:06:21,680
Speaker 1: without it being a genocide, um, And I think and

1201
01:06:21,720 --> 01:06:24,120
Speaker 1: it's also one of those things I think sometimes why

1202
01:06:24,160 --> 01:06:28,280
Speaker 1: people I think why there's hesitation to see certain acts

1203
01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:30,240
Speaker 1: and early history of genocide is that they're not as

1204
01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:33,480
Speaker 1: complete as modern genocide. But but what a genocide really is,

1205
01:06:33,520 --> 01:06:35,520
Speaker 1: and I think it's important to lay this out. It's

1206
01:06:35,560 --> 01:06:38,360
Speaker 1: not necessarily killing every member of an ethnic group or

1207
01:06:38,360 --> 01:06:41,240
Speaker 1: a religious group or whatever kind of community. Um, it

1208
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:45,720
Speaker 1: is stopping their ability to propagate and continue themselves. That's

1209
01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:49,360
Speaker 1: why things like destroying churches and destroying the cultural distroyal

1210
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:51,960
Speaker 1: markers are part of genocide. And it's also why a

1211
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:54,439
Speaker 1: lot of genocides they left the women and children alive.

1212
01:06:54,480 --> 01:06:56,040
Speaker 1: They would kill all the men, and they would take

1213
01:06:56,080 --> 01:06:57,520
Speaker 1: the women in and they would breed with them. They

1214
01:06:57,600 --> 01:06:59,640
Speaker 1: might kill the kids sometimes, but it was this The

1215
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:02,360
Speaker 1: goal was not necessarily were we need to kill all

1216
01:07:02,360 --> 01:07:04,440
Speaker 1: of you, it's we want to kill this, this culture,

1217
01:07:04,520 --> 01:07:10,400
Speaker 1: this population. Um, I think the I think the I

1218
01:07:10,400 --> 01:07:13,000
Speaker 1: think the parallel he's trying to make here or they

1219
01:07:13,120 --> 01:07:18,080
Speaker 1: or she? Uh? Is that? Uh? That like that type

1220
01:07:18,080 --> 01:07:23,560
Speaker 1: of like genocidal cultural destruction is targeted against specific groups.

1221
01:07:24,040 --> 01:07:26,680
Speaker 1: The difference here is with this type of like you know,

1222
01:07:26,720 --> 01:07:29,400
Speaker 1: he's he's writing this for other anarchists. He's pointing out,

1223
01:07:29,480 --> 01:07:33,960
Speaker 1: like our destructive urge, our cultural urge, isn't even for

1224
01:07:33,960 --> 01:07:37,280
Speaker 1: a specific group, it's just for everything, and that can

1225
01:07:37,320 --> 01:07:40,640
Speaker 1: be unhealthy. Sometimes sometimes there's ways to do make total

1226
01:07:40,680 --> 01:07:44,640
Speaker 1: destroy that's totally fine, but that can go to unhealthy places. Now,

1227
01:07:44,760 --> 01:07:48,080
Speaker 1: he's not equating like ethnic cleansing with that. He's like

1228
01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:51,840
Speaker 1: they are like they are different. But when when your

1229
01:07:51,920 --> 01:07:56,840
Speaker 1: total destroy urges against all of culture, then yeah, that

1230
01:07:56,840 --> 01:08:00,440
Speaker 1: that can like that's something you should probably ponder. Yeah,

1231
01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:02,560
Speaker 1: I mean that's definitely I would agree that that's the

1232
01:08:02,600 --> 01:08:05,600
Speaker 1: thing that's potentially problematic, right, like with a number of

1233
01:08:05,640 --> 01:08:08,960
Speaker 1: different desires. Uh, there's a way in which that can

1234
01:08:09,080 --> 01:08:11,880
Speaker 1: lead to people doing really fucked up things. Yeah, it's

1235
01:08:12,160 --> 01:08:14,520
Speaker 1: like it's like it's pointing out that that type of

1236
01:08:14,600 --> 01:08:19,120
Speaker 1: accelerationism not specific to ideology, but just like accelerationism in general.

1237
01:08:20,160 --> 01:08:22,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I think when I when I talk about

1238
01:08:22,160 --> 01:08:24,719
Speaker 1: things like the fact that because not every culture commits

1239
01:08:24,720 --> 01:08:28,880
Speaker 1: genocides and every civil civilization does, um, and throughout history

1240
01:08:28,960 --> 01:08:31,200
Speaker 1: there have been more that found the idea repugnant than

1241
01:08:31,240 --> 01:08:35,080
Speaker 1: found the idea acceptable. Um. But it is really a

1242
01:08:35,120 --> 01:08:38,000
Speaker 1: consistent thing in history. And I think the lesson with

1243
01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:41,160
Speaker 1: that isn't necessarily that everything could end in genocide. So

1244
01:08:41,320 --> 01:08:43,120
Speaker 1: I don't think the lesson is necessarily like, oh you

1245
01:08:43,120 --> 01:08:46,080
Speaker 1: should look at make total destroy as if you know,

1246
01:08:46,320 --> 01:08:48,960
Speaker 1: the this kind of trend in anarchist thought could lead

1247
01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:53,040
Speaker 1: to genocide it's that people in groups are nearly always

1248
01:08:53,080 --> 01:08:55,760
Speaker 1: capable of killing a shipload of other people for a

1249
01:08:55,840 --> 01:08:59,599
Speaker 1: variety of reasons if applied in the proper ways, And

1250
01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:02,719
Speaker 1: so those of us who seek mass movement should always

1251
01:09:02,760 --> 01:09:06,200
Speaker 1: be conscious of that, because human beings in large groups

1252
01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:08,640
Speaker 1: can do wonderful things, but there's a long history of

1253
01:09:08,680 --> 01:09:11,280
Speaker 1: them doing really fucked up shit, sometimes in ways that

1254
01:09:11,360 --> 01:09:13,719
Speaker 1: surprised the people that got the large group of human

1255
01:09:13,760 --> 01:09:16,360
Speaker 1: beings together in the first place. The other thing I

1256
01:09:16,400 --> 01:09:19,120
Speaker 1: wanted to bring up is kind of more circling back

1257
01:09:19,120 --> 01:09:22,680
Speaker 1: to the dumer kind of idea UM, because Yeah, a

1258
01:09:22,680 --> 01:09:25,439
Speaker 1: big part of the book is trying purposely is to

1259
01:09:25,520 --> 01:09:29,799
Speaker 1: dissolution people with this idea of global revolution and dissolution

1260
01:09:29,800 --> 01:09:31,320
Speaker 1: people with the idea that we can save the earth

1261
01:09:31,360 --> 01:09:35,080
Speaker 1: because we can't. UM. So that's a big thing and

1262
01:09:35,479 --> 01:09:37,960
Speaker 1: for I think, I think for some people, if you

1263
01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:41,479
Speaker 1: stop right there and you that's how you end that thought, Yes,

1264
01:09:41,560 --> 01:09:44,080
Speaker 1: that does lead to dumorism, obviously, like that that is

1265
01:09:44,360 --> 01:09:47,000
Speaker 1: that is, But the books, the book doesn't stop there.

1266
01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:50,680
Speaker 1: The book continues on from there. Now they continue on

1267
01:09:50,800 --> 01:09:54,480
Speaker 1: from a nihilistic standpoint. I'm not a nihilist. I prefer certinism.

1268
01:09:54,479 --> 01:09:57,920
Speaker 1: I prefer to escordionism. But those two things are pretty common.

1269
01:09:58,040 --> 01:10:01,960
Speaker 1: Like there they are more are similar than not um

1270
01:10:02,080 --> 01:10:05,240
Speaker 1: is that you can be disillusioned with global revolution and

1271
01:10:05,280 --> 01:10:07,400
Speaker 1: the idea to save the earth, but that should not

1272
01:10:07,720 --> 01:10:12,400
Speaker 1: change what we do or how we feel or operate

1273
01:10:12,479 --> 01:10:16,840
Speaker 1: as anarchists. It's not that we should be disillusioned and

1274
01:10:16,880 --> 01:10:19,800
Speaker 1: then do nothing and step aside. That we should be

1275
01:10:19,920 --> 01:10:25,640
Speaker 1: disillusioned and then find that disillusionment itself a form of liberation,

1276
01:10:26,120 --> 01:10:29,360
Speaker 1: like the freeing nature of being free from this idea

1277
01:10:29,439 --> 01:10:31,760
Speaker 1: of revolution. Is that like, no, we are living our

1278
01:10:31,800 --> 01:10:35,120
Speaker 1: lives now. Don't live for a revolution. Live your life

1279
01:10:35,120 --> 01:10:38,880
Speaker 1: now and do things now, because that's what you actually have.

1280
01:10:39,439 --> 01:10:43,160
Speaker 1: So it's like that type of nihilistic, absurdist and Discordian things.

1281
01:10:43,240 --> 01:10:44,519
Speaker 1: This is, this is this is This is where I

1282
01:10:44,600 --> 01:10:46,160
Speaker 1: come back to having problems with it again because this

1283
01:10:46,200 --> 01:10:49,360
Speaker 1: this is literally just there is no alternative except it's

1284
01:10:49,479 --> 01:10:54,519
Speaker 1: it's yeah, and that's it's do anarchy. I mean, but

1285
01:10:54,560 --> 01:10:57,600
Speaker 1: that's how I live like that that I think I

1286
01:10:57,680 --> 01:10:59,639
Speaker 1: think this is a bad I think that's a bad plan.

1287
01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:01,400
Speaker 1: And I think if if you look if you look

1288
01:11:01,439 --> 01:11:04,280
Speaker 1: at what happens with because you know this, this was

1289
01:11:04,280 --> 01:11:06,439
Speaker 1: the thing that was really big in the American anarchist movement,

1290
01:11:06,920 --> 01:11:10,720
Speaker 1: like in you know, from about seventeen like roughly now,

1291
01:11:10,760 --> 01:11:14,360
Speaker 1: and it's like a lot of people were rising too.

1292
01:11:14,439 --> 01:11:17,680
Speaker 1: Yeah didn't succeed like that, like not like but I

1293
01:11:17,680 --> 01:11:20,280
Speaker 1: think like like this is like I think I think

1294
01:11:20,320 --> 01:11:23,280
Speaker 1: this is like like one of the reasons it didn't.

1295
01:11:23,360 --> 01:11:25,920
Speaker 1: We were like, okay, this is like the thing that's important.

1296
01:11:25,920 --> 01:11:27,400
Speaker 1: One of the things is important of revolutions, even when

1297
01:11:27,400 --> 01:11:30,639
Speaker 1: they don't succeed, is that for a very brief window

1298
01:11:30,720 --> 01:11:33,320
Speaker 1: you actually can like it becomes it becomes possible to

1299
01:11:33,360 --> 01:11:37,200
Speaker 1: imagine another world. And what what what this entire thing

1300
01:11:37,280 --> 01:11:39,519
Speaker 1: is saying is don't do that. That's not that's not

1301
01:11:40,040 --> 01:11:42,600
Speaker 1: that's that's that's that is not what it absolutely not.

1302
01:11:42,840 --> 01:11:44,760
Speaker 1: This is no no no, okayn I kind of finish

1303
01:11:44,800 --> 01:11:48,280
Speaker 1: this sentence, yeah, like yeah, okay, so what what what?

1304
01:11:48,280 --> 01:11:53,040
Speaker 1: What What I'm saying here is that what what they've abandoned, right,

1305
01:11:53,600 --> 01:11:55,240
Speaker 1: the thing that they're giving up when they when they

1306
01:11:55,240 --> 01:11:57,479
Speaker 1: give up revolution, when they're like this is a progressive myth.

1307
01:11:57,600 --> 01:12:02,320
Speaker 1: This is like I see oology. What what they've abandoned

1308
01:12:02,320 --> 01:12:06,920
Speaker 1: completely is our human capacity to actually shape a different world.

1309
01:12:07,400 --> 01:12:10,920
Speaker 1: What they're arguing is that, like the the you know,

1310
01:12:11,040 --> 01:12:16,080
Speaker 1: it's essentially that the combination of ecological and social forces

1311
01:12:16,080 --> 01:12:19,240
Speaker 1: are strong enough that humans humans no longer have the

1312
01:12:19,320 --> 01:12:23,479
Speaker 1: capacity to reshape the world into a way that is

1313
01:12:23,479 --> 01:12:26,320
Speaker 1: different than this, and that this is now the eternal present,

1314
01:12:26,400 --> 01:12:28,760
Speaker 1: and you know, and yeah, inside of the eternal present,

1315
01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:30,320
Speaker 1: they're saying, you should be fighting for the same things.

1316
01:12:30,360 --> 01:12:32,679
Speaker 1: You should be fighting for, like you know, you should

1317
01:12:32,680 --> 01:12:35,439
Speaker 1: you should be in your own sort of local domain.

1318
01:12:35,560 --> 01:12:37,960
Speaker 1: You should be Like, I mean, there are some of

1319
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:41,160
Speaker 1: the recommendations are wild, Like I think, I think their

1320
01:12:41,160 --> 01:12:47,439
Speaker 1: conservation stuff is sketchy, given, I mean, it doesn't but

1321
01:12:47,439 --> 01:12:49,840
Speaker 1: it doesn't apply to an eternal present though, Like they

1322
01:12:49,920 --> 01:12:53,040
Speaker 1: lay out, like the world is changing a lot and

1323
01:12:53,120 --> 01:12:54,840
Speaker 1: will for the next fifty years, Like they will be

1324
01:12:55,160 --> 01:12:57,360
Speaker 1: massive changes and how things are set up in the

1325
01:12:57,400 --> 01:13:00,120
Speaker 1: next like in the next century, and we need to

1326
01:13:00,200 --> 01:13:02,800
Speaker 1: take advantage of that. We need to turn those liabilities

1327
01:13:02,840 --> 01:13:07,160
Speaker 1: into assets and start making those little anarchies like that. That

1328
01:13:06,840 --> 01:13:09,960
Speaker 1: That that is what it's trying to do. And I

1329
01:13:09,960 --> 01:13:13,120
Speaker 1: would add as well that as it points out the

1330
01:13:13,160 --> 01:13:16,920
Speaker 1: situations and plastic Stooke and Bangladesh are difference in the

1331
01:13:16,920 --> 01:13:19,519
Speaker 1: present and will be in the future. You Know, what

1332
01:13:19,560 --> 01:13:23,400
Speaker 1: I think is is trying to be sort of drilled

1333
01:13:23,439 --> 01:13:26,680
Speaker 1: in here, is that, at least in the text and

1334
01:13:26,720 --> 01:13:31,240
Speaker 1: how I read it, um, is that yes, things will

1335
01:13:31,400 --> 01:13:34,799
Speaker 1: be different in different parts of the world, and probably

1336
01:13:34,880 --> 01:13:37,040
Speaker 1: maybe they won't be this you know or as the

1337
01:13:37,200 --> 01:13:40,120
Speaker 1: what the is, They won't be you know, this one

1338
01:13:40,439 --> 01:13:45,719
Speaker 1: global revolution. But at the end of the day, Um,

1339
01:13:45,760 --> 01:13:49,519
Speaker 1: I think what it's trying to emphasize is that we

1340
01:13:49,520 --> 01:13:51,439
Speaker 1: don't have the structures. And I think what part of

1341
01:13:51,479 --> 01:13:52,680
Speaker 1: what is trying to emphasize is that we don't have

1342
01:13:52,680 --> 01:13:55,240
Speaker 1: the structures in place right now to launch an introduction

1343
01:13:55,320 --> 01:13:58,040
Speaker 1: we can meaningfully defend. And so that is the sort

1344
01:13:58,040 --> 01:14:01,360
Speaker 1: of thing we should be focusing on. Yeah, but but

1345
01:14:01,360 --> 01:14:03,240
Speaker 1: but they, but they but this and this, this, this

1346
01:14:03,280 --> 01:14:04,920
Speaker 1: is going back to my problem with it, going going

1347
01:14:04,960 --> 01:14:07,160
Speaker 1: back to the thing where they go on the rant

1348
01:14:07,200 --> 01:14:09,800
Speaker 1: about how anarchists are like a permanent cultural majority and

1349
01:14:09,800 --> 01:14:13,280
Speaker 1: will never become a majority. Is that even even in

1350
01:14:13,320 --> 01:14:15,800
Speaker 1: situations where people had that capacity and did it, they

1351
01:14:15,840 --> 01:14:18,280
Speaker 1: go back they project back onto it. Go no, no, no no, no,

1352
01:14:18,439 --> 01:14:20,280
Speaker 1: they couldn't have done that. Like it's it's not about

1353
01:14:21,360 --> 01:14:23,880
Speaker 1: it's it's it's they they have a belief and this

1354
01:14:23,960 --> 01:14:26,120
Speaker 1: is something that they do explicitly say that that anarchist

1355
01:14:26,240 --> 01:14:29,599
Speaker 1: will always be a permanent minority. Right there, There will

1356
01:14:29,600 --> 01:14:32,439
Speaker 1: always be an active but permanent minority. And that is

1357
01:14:32,520 --> 01:14:37,760
Speaker 1: the like like that specifically, I think is just an

1358
01:14:37,840 --> 01:14:42,000
Speaker 1: actual rejection of the belief that we collectively can make

1359
01:14:42,040 --> 01:14:44,880
Speaker 1: a better future. Because if if, if you think that

1360
01:14:44,960 --> 01:14:48,479
Speaker 1: our ideas that you know, if being free, right, if

1361
01:14:48,520 --> 01:14:51,280
Speaker 1: if society is mutually if you think that that is

1362
01:14:51,479 --> 01:14:55,320
Speaker 1: permanently always going to be a minority, you are you know,

1363
01:14:55,640 --> 01:15:01,320
Speaker 1: you are condemning. You're condemning the future to the people

1364
01:15:01,360 --> 01:15:06,880
Speaker 1: who don't believe that. And and I understand why, especially

1365
01:15:07,080 --> 01:15:08,880
Speaker 1: if you know, if if, if, if the only thing

1366
01:15:08,920 --> 01:15:12,160
Speaker 1: you've ever known is fifty years of when the new

1367
01:15:12,200 --> 01:15:14,760
Speaker 1: Liberals actually did the thing right. They took over the

1368
01:15:14,920 --> 01:15:18,559
Speaker 1: entire world, restructure of the entire world economy, seized every government.

1369
01:15:19,200 --> 01:15:21,479
Speaker 1: Like if if that's what you lived through, I understand

1370
01:15:21,520 --> 01:15:24,160
Speaker 1: why you would think that. But I think the fact

1371
01:15:24,200 --> 01:15:26,960
Speaker 1: that it was possible to do it from the other

1372
01:15:27,040 --> 01:15:29,280
Speaker 1: direction is in some ways a sense that like, yeah,

1373
01:15:29,320 --> 01:15:31,600
Speaker 1: we could do it too. I don't know. Sorry, I

1374
01:15:31,880 --> 01:15:34,479
Speaker 1: will stop harping on this one specific point. It just

1375
01:15:34,600 --> 01:15:37,640
Speaker 1: extremely annoys me. I think it's not giving up the

1376
01:15:37,680 --> 01:15:40,439
Speaker 1: idea that the world can be better. It's that like,

1377
01:15:41,240 --> 01:15:43,880
Speaker 1: we don't need to have the majority of people be

1378
01:15:43,960 --> 01:15:46,599
Speaker 1: anarchists to make the world better. We can still spread

1379
01:15:46,600 --> 01:15:48,759
Speaker 1: our own anarchies and people don't need to self subscribe

1380
01:15:48,760 --> 01:15:51,639
Speaker 1: as anarchists. But as long as we start building those

1381
01:15:51,640 --> 01:15:54,920
Speaker 1: systems in the places around us, people start using them,

1382
01:15:54,920 --> 01:15:57,640
Speaker 1: and people might start like living them out, even if

1383
01:15:57,640 --> 01:16:00,040
Speaker 1: they don't call themselves anarchists, right, like the majority and

1384
01:16:00,120 --> 01:16:04,760
Speaker 1: if people will probably prefer some type of state or government, right,

1385
01:16:04,840 --> 01:16:06,680
Speaker 1: you can even look at Rosa and be like, yeah,

1386
01:16:06,720 --> 01:16:09,400
Speaker 1: it's still is state issue in some ways, but some

1387
01:16:09,439 --> 01:16:12,439
Speaker 1: ways not right, Like it's it's it's going we're not

1388
01:16:12,439 --> 01:16:15,320
Speaker 1: going to get an anarchist world. That's not going to happen,

1389
01:16:15,479 --> 01:16:17,959
Speaker 1: but we can make it better through the lens of anarchy.

1390
01:16:18,120 --> 01:16:20,160
Speaker 1: And I think that's what it's kind of trying to say. Yeah,

1391
01:16:20,240 --> 01:16:24,200
Speaker 1: I think it's it's worth acknowledging that, like, yeah, the

1392
01:16:24,200 --> 01:16:27,160
Speaker 1: majority of people are never going to be what anarchists

1393
01:16:27,680 --> 01:16:30,880
Speaker 1: are right now, which is people who comprehensively reject the

1394
01:16:30,960 --> 01:16:33,040
Speaker 1: systems they live in. Most people are always going to

1395
01:16:33,680 --> 01:16:36,280
Speaker 1: think more like, well, I want to be comfortable. I

1396
01:16:36,280 --> 01:16:38,920
Speaker 1: want to I support changes kind of that that, you know,

1397
01:16:39,000 --> 01:16:40,840
Speaker 1: fix this thing that I've noticed as a problem or

1398
01:16:40,880 --> 01:16:43,400
Speaker 1: that thing. Most people are never going to comprehensively reject

1399
01:16:43,439 --> 01:16:46,639
Speaker 1: the system. But I do have hope that in time

1400
01:16:46,680 --> 01:16:50,519
Speaker 1: and given you know, space to build things and show

1401
01:16:50,560 --> 01:16:53,640
Speaker 1: people other ways and improve life for people, you can

1402
01:16:53,680 --> 01:16:56,639
Speaker 1: get to a point where most people believe a lot

1403
01:16:56,680 --> 01:16:58,920
Speaker 1: of the things that I think are important. Yeah, and

1404
01:16:58,960 --> 01:17:03,680
Speaker 1: I think that's what's time. I think that. I then

1405
01:17:03,720 --> 01:17:07,560
Speaker 1: that's what the as specificitis um tend to advocate for

1406
01:17:08,080 --> 01:17:11,160
Speaker 1: in terms of through the process of social institution in

1407
01:17:11,200 --> 01:17:16,400
Speaker 1: these larger movements, generalizing the ideas of anarchist ideas as

1408
01:17:16,400 --> 01:17:19,680
Speaker 1: a whole, making them more common throughout the population. It's

1409
01:17:19,720 --> 01:17:21,800
Speaker 1: only trying to get each and every post in the

1410
01:17:21,800 --> 01:17:25,559
Speaker 1: world to self identify as an anarchist, communist, or whatever.

1411
01:17:26,080 --> 01:17:29,839
Speaker 1: It's more so that you're trying to spread these ideas

1412
01:17:29,880 --> 01:17:34,679
Speaker 1: to the point where they are I suppose the common

1413
01:17:34,720 --> 01:17:40,200
Speaker 1: sentiments the popular will yeah, like I it's it's um

1414
01:17:40,240 --> 01:17:42,800
Speaker 1: that's like the point of culture jamming and and and

1415
01:17:42,840 --> 01:17:45,800
Speaker 1: ship like that, Like it's the the idea that like

1416
01:17:45,840 --> 01:17:49,559
Speaker 1: it doesn't so much matter, like like like what matters

1417
01:17:49,640 --> 01:17:52,640
Speaker 1: is inserting the things you think are important into the

1418
01:17:52,680 --> 01:17:55,720
Speaker 1: culture and getting people to identify with them and understand them.

1419
01:17:56,560 --> 01:18:00,000
Speaker 1: The terms that they specifically use aren't aren't as important,

1420
01:18:00,360 --> 01:18:03,920
Speaker 1: like that that's not really what matters. Well, okay, I

1421
01:18:04,280 --> 01:18:07,080
Speaker 1: don't think they're arguing that though, because I mean, like

1422
01:18:07,120 --> 01:18:09,280
Speaker 1: do they have lines like this. We cannot, however, remake

1423
01:18:09,280 --> 01:18:10,960
Speaker 1: the entire world. There are not enough of us. There

1424
01:18:11,040 --> 01:18:12,800
Speaker 1: never will be. But then you know, they like they

1425
01:18:12,880 --> 01:18:15,200
Speaker 1: they they specifically talk about the oh well they don't

1426
01:18:15,240 --> 01:18:17,880
Speaker 1: have to all be anarchists, and you know, I mean,

1427
01:18:18,120 --> 01:18:20,599
Speaker 1: here's their line. There is unfortunately little little evidence from

1428
01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:22,800
Speaker 1: history that the working class, never mind anyone else, is

1429
01:18:22,800 --> 01:18:27,439
Speaker 1: intrinsically predisposed to libertarian and ecological revolution. Thousands of years

1430
01:18:27,439 --> 01:18:30,360
Speaker 1: of authoritarian socialization in favor of the jack boot. Neither

1431
01:18:30,479 --> 01:18:33,439
Speaker 1: we nor anyone else could create a libertarian or global

1432
01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:37,680
Speaker 1: or ecological global future by expanding social movements further. There

1433
01:18:37,720 --> 01:18:39,559
Speaker 1: is no reason to think that in the absence of

1434
01:18:39,600 --> 01:18:42,160
Speaker 1: such a vast expanse a global transformation concurrent to our

1435
01:18:42,240 --> 01:18:45,720
Speaker 1: desires will ever happen. I think, I think, I think

1436
01:18:45,760 --> 01:18:48,040
Speaker 1: the keyword there is global, Like, yeah, that's they're trying

1437
01:18:48,080 --> 01:18:50,240
Speaker 1: to write about that, and it's important, Like they're writing

1438
01:18:50,320 --> 01:18:54,120
Speaker 1: this specifically for anarchists who are kind of already nihilistic,

1439
01:18:54,200 --> 01:18:56,519
Speaker 1: kind of already anti sif, right, they are writing this

1440
01:18:56,640 --> 01:18:59,960
Speaker 1: for other anarchists, that this isn't a book to radicalize

1441
01:19:00,240 --> 01:19:04,439
Speaker 1: a normy or a communist by anarchists for other anarchists

1442
01:19:04,479 --> 01:19:06,840
Speaker 1: to be like, hey, you already kind of think the

1443
01:19:06,880 --> 01:19:10,200
Speaker 1: world's kind of going to ship. Here's a way that

1444
01:19:10,240 --> 01:19:13,320
Speaker 1: we can still do things despite the world being shitty.

1445
01:19:16,000 --> 01:19:19,120
Speaker 1: Because once you're once you're disillusioned, it's hard to be

1446
01:19:19,320 --> 01:19:22,280
Speaker 1: illusioned again. Like it's it's hard once you give up

1447
01:19:22,320 --> 01:19:25,559
Speaker 1: on the idea of global revolution, once you give up

1448
01:19:25,600 --> 01:19:27,559
Speaker 1: the idea of global collapse, it's hard to re enter

1449
01:19:27,680 --> 01:19:30,040
Speaker 1: those even if you see things happening the world, like

1450
01:19:30,200 --> 01:19:33,840
Speaker 1: there can still be uprisings and revolts, absolutely, but there

1451
01:19:33,920 --> 01:19:36,720
Speaker 1: is a distinction of between uprising and the revolts and

1452
01:19:36,880 --> 01:19:40,479
Speaker 1: like a global revolution, right, and specifically like the Marxist

1453
01:19:40,680 --> 01:19:45,439
Speaker 1: Leninist sense, and I'd also like to um continue the

1454
01:19:45,520 --> 01:19:48,880
Speaker 1: paragraph you're reading from there. We had said that as anarchists,

1455
01:19:48,880 --> 01:19:52,000
Speaker 1: sweet he had. They had said that, as anarchists, we

1456
01:19:52,000 --> 01:19:54,439
Speaker 1: are not the seed of the future society. In the

1457
01:19:54,439 --> 01:19:56,320
Speaker 1: show of the old, it may are you one of

1458
01:19:56,400 --> 01:20:00,559
Speaker 1: many elements from which the future is. For me, that's okay,

1459
01:20:00,640 --> 01:20:03,679
Speaker 1: when faced with such scale and complexity. There is value

1460
01:20:03,760 --> 01:20:06,800
Speaker 1: in non cervile humility, even for in surgery. But this

1461
01:20:06,640 --> 01:20:08,400
Speaker 1: is this is just this is just giving up. This

1462
01:20:08,280 --> 01:20:10,800
Speaker 1: is this is the old. It's too complicated, it's too

1463
01:20:10,840 --> 01:20:13,720
Speaker 1: like and like I think, I don't know, like it's

1464
01:20:13,760 --> 01:20:17,360
Speaker 1: it's it's it's giving up on it's giving up on

1465
01:20:17,400 --> 01:20:20,679
Speaker 1: trying to do any kind of on on like humans

1466
01:20:20,720 --> 01:20:22,960
Speaker 1: as a whole, trying to do any kind of large

1467
01:20:22,960 --> 01:20:28,320
Speaker 1: scale like you know, like's trying to do transformation of

1468
01:20:28,320 --> 01:20:30,799
Speaker 1: what the society. I disagree to continue that that code

1469
01:20:31,200 --> 01:20:34,080
Speaker 1: to give up hope for global anarchist revolution is not

1470
01:20:34,120 --> 01:20:38,080
Speaker 1: to resign oneself to anarchy, remaining any to protest. Seaweed

1471
01:20:38,120 --> 01:20:41,679
Speaker 1: puts it well. Revolution is not everywhere or nowhere. Any

1472
01:20:41,680 --> 01:20:44,400
Speaker 1: bioregion can be liberated through a succession of events and

1473
01:20:44,439 --> 01:20:47,720
Speaker 1: strategies based in the conditions unique to it, mostly as

1474
01:20:47,720 --> 01:20:50,080
Speaker 1: the grip of facilitation that area weakens through its own

1475
01:20:50,120 --> 01:20:53,800
Speaker 1: volition for the efforts of its inhabitants. So aisation didn't

1476
01:20:53,800 --> 01:20:55,840
Speaker 1: succeed every at once, and so it's undoing might only

1477
01:20:55,840 --> 01:20:59,040
Speaker 1: occur to varying degrees in different places at different times.

1478
01:21:00,000 --> 01:21:02,559
Speaker 1: In if an area seemingly fully under the control of authority,

1479
01:21:02,800 --> 01:21:05,040
Speaker 1: they always places to go, to live in, to love in,

1480
01:21:05,120 --> 01:21:08,360
Speaker 1: and to resist from, and we can extend those spaces.

1481
01:21:08,800 --> 01:21:11,679
Speaker 1: The global situation may seem beyond us, but the local

1482
01:21:11,800 --> 01:21:16,439
Speaker 1: never is. And I think that's beautiful. I think that's

1483
01:21:16,479 --> 01:21:18,960
Speaker 1: like a That's one of the things that keeps me

1484
01:21:19,000 --> 01:21:22,599
Speaker 1: alive is ideas like that, honestly. And at the same time,

1485
01:21:22,840 --> 01:21:28,519
Speaker 1: I also hold the opinion that none of us, including

1486
01:21:28,560 --> 01:21:31,919
Speaker 1: this author, is a fortune teller, you know. The desert's

1487
01:21:31,960 --> 01:21:35,760
Speaker 1: picture of the future is not the only possibility, you know,

1488
01:21:35,920 --> 01:21:37,920
Speaker 1: And I think in a lot of ways and a

1489
01:21:37,920 --> 01:21:43,439
Speaker 1: lot always I believe that they can and have already

1490
01:21:43,439 --> 01:21:48,120
Speaker 1: been proven wrong, you know. Like, and there's an issue

1491
01:21:48,160 --> 01:21:50,120
Speaker 1: that I really take a lot of contention with the book.

1492
01:21:50,240 --> 01:21:53,040
Speaker 1: Part of the book that really pisces me off is

1493
01:21:53,479 --> 01:21:58,840
Speaker 1: the sort of persistence of the overpopulation myth. I don't

1494
01:21:58,840 --> 01:22:01,160
Speaker 1: remember it being sun as done since I reread it

1495
01:22:01,479 --> 01:22:04,960
Speaker 1: UM a couple of weeks ago. Yeah, So this sort

1496
01:22:05,000 --> 01:22:09,200
Speaker 1: of nonchalance the author seems to have about like mass

1497
01:22:09,240 --> 01:22:10,840
Speaker 1: die offs and that kind of thing, you know, I

1498
01:22:10,840 --> 01:22:14,040
Speaker 1: think that's very troubling to me. That's very specific to

1499
01:22:14,120 --> 01:22:17,439
Speaker 1: It's a type of anti civil literature that's like, we

1500
01:22:17,560 --> 01:22:22,160
Speaker 1: view civilization is going to progress towards genocide anyway, and

1501
01:22:22,280 --> 01:22:25,599
Speaker 1: the way to actually avoid more deaths is to kind

1502
01:22:25,640 --> 01:22:29,679
Speaker 1: of help the collapse along because that will end civilization quicker.

1503
01:22:29,720 --> 01:22:31,479
Speaker 1: So therefore less people, less people will be born, and

1504
01:22:31,600 --> 01:22:34,000
Speaker 1: less people will have to die. So that's the type

1505
01:22:34,000 --> 01:22:36,599
Speaker 1: of thinking they have. I don't necessarily agree with that,

1506
01:22:37,240 --> 01:22:41,800
Speaker 1: um necessarily, but like, yeah, that is that is very

1507
01:22:41,800 --> 01:22:45,240
Speaker 1: typical of this type of literature. So again because it

1508
01:22:45,360 --> 01:22:48,840
Speaker 1: is written mostly for other anti civ anarchists, but like, yeah,

1509
01:22:49,280 --> 01:22:52,519
Speaker 1: it's not like pro genocide. It's saying genocide will happen.

1510
01:22:52,640 --> 01:22:55,080
Speaker 1: So the way to make less of it is to

1511
01:22:55,680 --> 01:23:00,240
Speaker 1: actually kind of slowly start kind of help help putting

1512
01:23:00,240 --> 01:23:03,639
Speaker 1: the crumbles along essentially and while still you know, making

1513
01:23:03,640 --> 01:23:06,400
Speaker 1: people's lives better in your immediate community like with that,

1514
01:23:06,439 --> 01:23:09,439
Speaker 1: with that very local focus. So again not not saying

1515
01:23:09,479 --> 01:23:12,040
Speaker 1: I necessarily agree with that, but that's the that's the

1516
01:23:12,120 --> 01:23:17,200
Speaker 1: type of thought it's engaging with. I mean, I think

1517
01:23:17,240 --> 01:23:20,800
Speaker 1: that's true of some of it. But there is definitely

1518
01:23:20,840 --> 01:23:24,479
Speaker 1: a lot of like panic about there's going to be

1519
01:23:24,560 --> 01:23:30,280
Speaker 1: nine billion people and like population grows all the over

1520
01:23:30,280 --> 01:23:32,880
Speaker 1: population stuffs a little iffy, you know, there is there's

1521
01:23:32,880 --> 01:23:35,400
Speaker 1: a discussion to have on carring capacity, but we are

1522
01:23:35,400 --> 01:23:37,880
Speaker 1: not there yet. We right now we way overproduced for

1523
01:23:37,880 --> 01:23:41,240
Speaker 1: them for the amount of people we have. Yeah, that

1524
01:23:41,640 --> 01:23:45,759
Speaker 1: and that I don't know. That also frustrated me immensely.

1525
01:23:47,600 --> 01:23:49,960
Speaker 1: They're like, yeah, we we have becauseiner they're talking about

1526
01:23:49,960 --> 01:23:52,720
Speaker 1: carrying capacity, right and they're like, we already can't. We

1527
01:23:52,760 --> 01:23:54,400
Speaker 1: have a billion people going hungry. And it's like, yeah,

1528
01:23:54,400 --> 01:23:56,920
Speaker 1: but that's not about the carrying capacity. That's just that's

1529
01:23:56,760 --> 01:24:01,120
Speaker 1: that which was just liter that and that idea gained

1530
01:24:01,120 --> 01:24:04,480
Speaker 1: more prevalence after Dessert was written. We kind of more understood,

1531
01:24:04,840 --> 01:24:08,080
Speaker 1: like like culturally that it is a distribution issue, not

1532
01:24:08,120 --> 01:24:11,040
Speaker 1: necessarily a production issue. Now we do overproduce, right because

1533
01:24:11,080 --> 01:24:13,320
Speaker 1: and the amount of production we have contributes this tough

1534
01:24:13,360 --> 01:24:15,280
Speaker 1: like climate change and that is bad, so we should

1535
01:24:15,360 --> 01:24:17,800
Speaker 1: tone down production, but we should make the ways that

1536
01:24:17,880 --> 01:24:21,280
Speaker 1: it's more sustainable and ecological. Um. Yeah, that I think

1537
01:24:21,320 --> 01:24:24,040
Speaker 1: that does point towards the data and nature of the text.

1538
01:24:24,920 --> 01:24:27,840
Speaker 1: I think also my my last like thing with it

1539
01:24:27,920 --> 01:24:33,200
Speaker 1: is I think I think it could have benefited a

1540
01:24:33,200 --> 01:24:37,080
Speaker 1: lot from like in an indigenous stewardship perspective, because the

1541
01:24:37,120 --> 01:24:39,519
Speaker 1: way it thinks about its, particularly the way things about

1542
01:24:39,520 --> 01:24:45,840
Speaker 1: wildness versus conservation, is just very messy. And yeah, if

1543
01:24:45,880 --> 01:24:49,400
Speaker 1: it falls, it falls. It does a better job of

1544
01:24:49,439 --> 01:24:52,960
Speaker 1: it than some other antis of things that I've seen,

1545
01:24:53,120 --> 01:24:56,439
Speaker 1: but it definitely falls into the like trap of like

1546
01:24:57,120 --> 01:24:59,799
Speaker 1: here is the wild and then any attempt to manage

1547
01:24:59,800 --> 01:25:03,840
Speaker 1: it is uh, you know, is is civilization and you

1548
01:25:03,880 --> 01:25:05,360
Speaker 1: need to go back to the wild and it's like

1549
01:25:06,000 --> 01:25:11,960
Speaker 1: this is already stewarded and managed. Yeah, that is the one. Yeah,

1550
01:25:12,160 --> 01:25:15,120
Speaker 1: it does fall on that slope of like nature being

1551
01:25:15,200 --> 01:25:18,880
Speaker 1: another that is sacred, which isn't necessarily a great idea

1552
01:25:18,960 --> 01:25:21,360
Speaker 1: nor is it really true. Yeah, this is very two

1553
01:25:21,720 --> 01:25:27,360
Speaker 1: two ten. Yeah, right, So I think the book is

1554
01:25:28,280 --> 01:25:30,840
Speaker 1: critical conservation and that sort of binary way, And I

1555
01:25:30,880 --> 01:25:36,800
Speaker 1: agree that indigenous stewardship perspective was sorely needed. But at

1556
01:25:36,840 --> 01:25:39,559
Speaker 1: the same time, I do think that the way that

1557
01:25:39,680 --> 01:25:45,400
Speaker 1: the book predicises um or ever just points out Um,

1558
01:25:45,520 --> 01:25:49,280
Speaker 1: the su conservation may have been one may still be

1559
01:25:49,880 --> 01:25:52,840
Speaker 1: new for some people. You know, the idea that these

1560
01:25:52,840 --> 01:25:59,840
Speaker 1: sorts of government conservation projects which sort of preside over

1561
01:25:59,880 --> 01:26:03,479
Speaker 1: the sort of static vision of nature and ecology and

1562
01:26:03,520 --> 01:26:08,880
Speaker 1: stuff that is supposedly threatened by humanity. UM. I think

1563
01:26:08,920 --> 01:26:13,880
Speaker 1: criticizing that approach to nature's good. I mean the sort

1564
01:26:13,880 --> 01:26:17,360
Speaker 1: of romanticization of the wild that is very typical of

1565
01:26:18,160 --> 01:26:23,080
Speaker 1: anti set of text and thought. UM is very much

1566
01:26:23,120 --> 01:26:29,759
Speaker 1: anti Seve. But I do believe that people should look

1567
01:26:31,000 --> 01:26:37,479
Speaker 1: ah or should rather resist these sorts of conservation impulse.

1568
01:26:38,840 --> 01:26:42,439
Speaker 1: As I was rereading it a couple of weeks ago,

1569
01:26:43,200 --> 01:26:45,920
Speaker 1: I wanted to know, um, what you guys thought of

1570
01:26:47,360 --> 01:26:50,080
Speaker 1: the section of the book that speaks of the different

1571
01:26:51,439 --> 01:26:55,240
Speaker 1: modern different the the idea of fourth and fifth generation war.

1572
01:26:56,920 --> 01:27:05,480
Speaker 1: Oh boy, that's ah um um sort of a contributional

1573
01:27:05,479 --> 01:27:10,680
Speaker 1: approach to analyzing conflict. So I figured out, as you

1574
01:27:10,680 --> 01:27:14,479
Speaker 1: have been in you know, actual war Zoon's rout, that

1575
01:27:14,560 --> 01:27:18,320
Speaker 1: you might have a thing to see. Um. I mean,

1576
01:27:19,160 --> 01:27:21,200
Speaker 1: it's the kind of thing that we should probably cover

1577
01:27:21,560 --> 01:27:24,920
Speaker 1: in in detail on because this is a lot of

1578
01:27:24,960 --> 01:27:27,840
Speaker 1: like William Lynde stuff. I think he's the guy who

1579
01:27:27,840 --> 01:27:29,840
Speaker 1: came up with the idea of like fourth generation war

1580
01:27:30,000 --> 01:27:33,000
Speaker 1: less at least and it's UM. It's basically the idea.

1581
01:27:33,280 --> 01:27:37,280
Speaker 1: It's the idea that warfare UM today is conducted through

1582
01:27:37,360 --> 01:27:40,479
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff that's not conventional weaponry, right, so

1583
01:27:40,560 --> 01:27:45,799
Speaker 1: stuff like UM, like like like putting bought networks together

1584
01:27:45,880 --> 01:27:49,880
Speaker 1: to like push social division, you know through UM social

1585
01:27:49,880 --> 01:27:55,000
Speaker 1: media UM, or carrying out cyber attacks on infrastructure, disinformation UM,

1586
01:27:55,040 --> 01:27:58,400
Speaker 1: all of that kind of stuff, which is I think accurate.

1587
01:27:58,439 --> 01:28:00,840
Speaker 1: I've been reporting on what you could call fifth generation

1588
01:28:00,880 --> 01:28:08,840
Speaker 1: warfare since some UM. I think it's I think to

1589
01:28:08,880 --> 01:28:11,360
Speaker 1: the extent that it's relevant here. I think one thing

1590
01:28:11,400 --> 01:28:13,720
Speaker 1: that people on the left need to acknowledge is that

1591
01:28:13,800 --> 01:28:18,280
Speaker 1: they have UM been blindsided by the effectiveness that the

1592
01:28:18,320 --> 01:28:23,400
Speaker 1: far right has adapted to UM the key components of

1593
01:28:23,439 --> 01:28:26,080
Speaker 1: this kind of warfare. And I think nothing is more

1594
01:28:26,160 --> 01:28:30,000
Speaker 1: key than social engineering and disinformation UM, and they've been

1595
01:28:30,080 --> 01:28:33,720
Speaker 1: much more successful at it over the last release ince

1596
01:28:33,720 --> 01:28:36,920
Speaker 1: two that in fifteen in particular, UM than the left

1597
01:28:36,960 --> 01:28:41,000
Speaker 1: hast by basically everywhere, every and by I think, every

1598
01:28:41,040 --> 01:28:43,960
Speaker 1: single measure of of success. And I think this is

1599
01:28:44,000 --> 01:28:48,960
Speaker 1: something we should save in depth for another day. UM,

1600
01:28:49,000 --> 01:28:52,599
Speaker 1: but I think that it is worth acknowledging that this is.

1601
01:28:53,000 --> 01:28:55,559
Speaker 1: And I also think that and this is again part

1602
01:28:55,600 --> 01:28:58,120
Speaker 1: of a bigger conversation we talked about the concept of

1603
01:28:58,120 --> 01:29:00,240
Speaker 1: like culture jamming, when we talked about like operating should

1604
01:29:00,320 --> 01:29:03,679
Speaker 1: mind fuck you know, which is Discordian idea. Um, all

1605
01:29:03,720 --> 01:29:06,960
Speaker 1: of which you can see is kind of pre predecessors

1606
01:29:06,960 --> 01:29:09,840
Speaker 1: to the concepts of fifth generation warfare. I think there's

1607
01:29:09,840 --> 01:29:12,479
Speaker 1: a strong argument to be made that those efforts by

1608
01:29:12,600 --> 01:29:17,360
Speaker 1: leftists in the eighties and nineties in particular, actually contributed

1609
01:29:17,560 --> 01:29:20,479
Speaker 1: to the substantial right wing victories that we're seeing right

1610
01:29:20,479 --> 01:29:24,120
Speaker 1: now in this space. UM. And I think maybe it's

1611
01:29:24,520 --> 01:29:26,559
Speaker 1: I think there's a number of reasons for that, um,

1612
01:29:26,680 --> 01:29:29,760
Speaker 1: including some to some extent, the idea of arrogance, that

1613
01:29:30,600 --> 01:29:32,479
Speaker 1: that what that we were just too smart, that they

1614
01:29:32,479 --> 01:29:34,680
Speaker 1: were never going to figure out how to utilize the

1615
01:29:34,680 --> 01:29:37,360
Speaker 1: same means we had, or to kind of judo like

1616
01:29:38,000 --> 01:29:40,559
Speaker 1: take the momentum for that and spin it around on us.

1617
01:29:40,960 --> 01:29:43,920
Speaker 1: But they were and they did, And UM, yeah, that'll

1618
01:29:43,960 --> 01:29:46,280
Speaker 1: that'll lead into another episode. We'll have to talk about

1619
01:29:46,280 --> 01:29:49,360
Speaker 1: this in more detail. That's something like Grant Morrison actually

1620
01:29:49,360 --> 01:29:52,240
Speaker 1: talks a lot about in regards to discordionism and this

1621
01:29:52,320 --> 01:29:55,479
Speaker 1: type of how how you know he used to work

1622
01:29:55,520 --> 01:30:00,560
Speaker 1: for a company called Disinformation back when disinformation was yeah, yeah,

1623
01:30:00,200 --> 01:30:03,080
Speaker 1: and now it's like one of the leading causes of

1624
01:30:03,400 --> 01:30:06,960
Speaker 1: mass death in the world, right, so he That is

1625
01:30:06,960 --> 01:30:09,000
Speaker 1: something that Morrison talks about a lot in terms of

1626
01:30:09,160 --> 01:30:12,080
Speaker 1: how they did have that arrogance and now the same

1627
01:30:12,080 --> 01:30:14,439
Speaker 1: forces that they used in hopes of making the world

1628
01:30:14,479 --> 01:30:17,200
Speaker 1: better and now being used to regress the world and

1629
01:30:17,280 --> 01:30:21,360
Speaker 1: make it worse. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I had a big

1630
01:30:21,400 --> 01:30:24,479
Speaker 1: copy of Disinformation on my coffee table when I was nineteen.

1631
01:30:24,840 --> 01:30:34,639
Speaker 1: I just ordered good. There's some fun essays in their Garrett. Um,

1632
01:30:34,680 --> 01:30:37,040
Speaker 1: all right, that'll probably I mean, did you have more

1633
01:30:37,080 --> 01:30:39,760
Speaker 1: to say on that? And yeah, I just wanted to

1634
01:30:39,800 --> 01:30:43,800
Speaker 1: say that, you know, regardless of the uncertain future, um,

1635
01:30:44,000 --> 01:30:48,200
Speaker 1: regardless of your stance on that's its message, however flawed.

1636
01:30:48,920 --> 01:30:54,040
Speaker 1: Um here now, as the minor goods in Alis Souxley's

1637
01:30:54,080 --> 01:30:59,439
Speaker 1: Island so often repeat, um, we kind of should be

1638
01:30:59,520 --> 01:31:01,960
Speaker 1: attention to what we can do to support ourselves for

1639
01:31:02,000 --> 01:31:06,479
Speaker 1: whatever outcome you go through, you know, projects within the

1640
01:31:06,520 --> 01:31:10,400
Speaker 1: spaces we inhabit. I believe that I guess it could

1641
01:31:10,400 --> 01:31:12,640
Speaker 1: be the seed then you will. I do believe that

1642
01:31:12,680 --> 01:31:16,360
Speaker 1: we have an impact, a huge impact on society and

1643
01:31:16,560 --> 01:31:21,520
Speaker 1: on politics, and I believe there are still many possibilities

1644
01:31:22,040 --> 01:31:27,960
Speaker 1: for liberty still. Yeah, I I do as well. I

1645
01:31:28,000 --> 01:31:32,040
Speaker 1: think that acknowledging, you know, failures, both of of of

1646
01:31:32,320 --> 01:31:35,840
Speaker 1: you know ideas and of of methods doesn't mean m

1647
01:31:36,080 --> 01:31:39,439
Speaker 1: giving up hope or or ignoring the successes of those

1648
01:31:39,479 --> 01:31:44,080
Speaker 1: same things which which we're are also present. Um yeah,

1649
01:31:44,280 --> 01:31:50,240
Speaker 1: So I don't know, stay optimistic. Read something doesn't have

1650
01:31:50,280 --> 01:31:54,360
Speaker 1: to be a desert. But just go go read a thing. Yeah,

1651
01:31:54,439 --> 01:31:56,679
Speaker 1: back of your shampoo, but especially if it's Dr Browner's

1652
01:31:56,920 --> 01:32:01,040
Speaker 1: a lot of good stuff in there. Um right, that's

1653
01:32:01,040 --> 01:32:12,960
Speaker 1: gonna do it for us this week. Take care look

1654
01:32:13,040 --> 01:32:15,880
Speaker 1: to your children's eyes to see the true magic of

1655
01:32:15,920 --> 01:32:19,599
Speaker 1: a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You look

1656
01:32:19,720 --> 01:32:22,479
Speaker 1: and see a tree, They see the wrinkled face of

1657
01:32:22,479 --> 01:32:26,000
Speaker 1: a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They see

1658
01:32:26,040 --> 01:32:29,280
Speaker 1: treasure and pebbles. They see a windy path that could

1659
01:32:29,360 --> 01:32:33,360
Speaker 1: lead to adventure. And they see you. They're fearless. Guide.

1660
01:32:33,560 --> 01:32:36,840
Speaker 1: Is this fascinating world? Find a forest near you and

1661
01:32:36,880 --> 01:32:39,880
Speaker 1: start exploring and discover the forest dot org brought to

1662
01:32:39,920 --> 01:32:42,479
Speaker 1: you by the United States Forest Service and the AD Council.

1663
01:32:43,680 --> 01:32:47,120
Speaker 1: What grows in the forest trees? Sure you know what

1664
01:32:47,200 --> 01:32:50,960
Speaker 1: else grows in the forest. Our imagination, our sense of wonder,

1665
01:32:51,360 --> 01:32:54,560
Speaker 1: and our family bonds grow too, because when we disconnect

1666
01:32:54,600 --> 01:33:01,240
Speaker 1: from this and connect with this, we reconnect with each other.

1667
01:33:02,000 --> 01:33:04,879
Speaker 1: The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest

1668
01:33:05,000 --> 01:33:08,240
Speaker 1: near you and start exploring. I Discover the Forest dot

1669
01:33:08,360 --> 01:33:11,120
Speaker 1: org brought to you by the United States Forest Service

1670
01:33:11,280 --> 01:33:14,880
Speaker 1: and the AD Council. Hei there, I'm Scott Rank, host

1671
01:33:14,920 --> 01:33:17,600
Speaker 1: of the podcast History Unplugged. And if you're dreaming of

1672
01:33:17,720 --> 01:33:20,320
Speaker 1: being a full time podcaster someday, you and I have

1673
01:33:20,360 --> 01:33:22,680
Speaker 1: a lot in common. I used to teach history for

1674
01:33:22,720 --> 01:33:25,599
Speaker 1: a living, which was great, but I wanted something more

1675
01:33:26,040 --> 01:33:28,200
Speaker 1: and maybe you know what I mean. So I gave

1676
01:33:28,240 --> 01:33:30,920
Speaker 1: podcasting a try, and I did it with speaker from

1677
01:33:30,920 --> 01:33:33,320
Speaker 1: my heart. I could explain how it works in about

1678
01:33:33,400 --> 01:33:36,000
Speaker 1: ninety seconds, but all you really need to know now

1679
01:33:36,240 --> 01:33:38,719
Speaker 1: is that in my experience, the AD revenue with Spreaker

1680
01:33:38,760 --> 01:33:40,840
Speaker 1: has been three to four times higher than it has

1681
01:33:40,880 --> 01:33:43,479
Speaker 1: been with any other host I've worked with. Now I

1682
01:33:43,520 --> 01:33:46,080
Speaker 1: get to do what I'm passionate about teach history, but

1683
01:33:46,280 --> 01:33:49,120
Speaker 1: with more freedom and less stress, while still earning a

1684
01:33:49,160 --> 01:33:52,680
Speaker 1: respectable salary. From just getting started and doing the very

1685
01:33:52,680 --> 01:33:55,960
Speaker 1: basic stuff to taking your podcast in whatever direction you

1686
01:33:56,000 --> 01:33:58,639
Speaker 1: want to take it, Speaker has all sorts of great tools.

1687
01:33:59,160 --> 01:34:00,600
Speaker 1: So if you want to turn your passion into a

1688
01:34:00,600 --> 01:34:03,880
Speaker 1: podcast and give us a try, visit spreaker dot com.

1689
01:34:03,920 --> 01:34:07,200
Speaker 1: That's sp r e a k e r dot com.

1690
01:34:07,600 --> 01:34:10,679
Speaker 1: Get paid and talk about the things you love with Spreaker.

1691
01:34:10,880 --> 01:34:21,640
Speaker 1: From my heart, welcome to it could happen here the

1692
01:34:21,680 --> 01:34:25,400
Speaker 1: podcast we already recorded and I messed up um or

1693
01:34:25,520 --> 01:34:27,559
Speaker 1: something happened with the zoom and we lost the audio.

1694
01:34:27,600 --> 01:34:30,640
Speaker 1: So now we're recording it again, as is, as is

1695
01:34:30,680 --> 01:34:34,639
Speaker 1: the cycle of life. UM, thankfully I can. I'm now

1696
01:34:34,640 --> 01:34:37,320
Speaker 1: on my tenth shot of Espresso of the day and

1697
01:34:37,360 --> 01:34:39,880
Speaker 1: it is eight pm, so I'm I'm ready. I'm I'm

1698
01:34:39,880 --> 01:34:43,160
Speaker 1: ready this time today we're gonna be doing another one

1699
01:34:43,200 --> 01:34:48,799
Speaker 1: of our chronicles into open source and OSENT style research

1700
01:34:48,880 --> 01:34:52,800
Speaker 1: or open source verification and this kind of side of

1701
01:34:52,800 --> 01:34:54,479
Speaker 1: of generally, you know, this is kind of a field

1702
01:34:54,479 --> 01:34:58,400
Speaker 1: of like anti fascist research UM and journalism. So we're

1703
01:34:58,400 --> 01:35:02,439
Speaker 1: looking at one of these case studies UM. But today

1704
01:35:02,560 --> 01:35:08,040
Speaker 1: I have someone with me, Alistair from Opossum Press is

1705
01:35:08,080 --> 01:35:14,080
Speaker 1: here to talk about and UH and this type of research. Hello, Hi,

1706
01:35:15,120 --> 01:35:17,840
Speaker 1: thank you for being with me again on this on

1707
01:35:17,880 --> 01:35:24,559
Speaker 1: this call, on this very deaf experience for us. I

1708
01:35:24,600 --> 01:35:29,519
Speaker 1: would actually first like to talk about how Opossum Press

1709
01:35:29,600 --> 01:35:32,720
Speaker 1: got started as like a collective of of people dedicated

1710
01:35:32,760 --> 01:35:39,160
Speaker 1: towards this goal of you know, surveying the fascist creep. UM.

1711
01:35:38,920 --> 01:35:43,439
Speaker 1: I had an interest in UM and journalism. I have

1712
01:35:43,479 --> 01:35:46,640
Speaker 1: no experience in it, but I have other friends that

1713
01:35:46,680 --> 01:35:49,320
Speaker 1: are into writing and stuff, and I just kind of

1714
01:35:50,479 --> 01:35:52,559
Speaker 1: reached out to friends and like, hey, would anybody be

1715
01:35:52,640 --> 01:35:56,920
Speaker 1: interested in doing this? And UM there are several friends

1716
01:35:56,960 --> 01:36:00,280
Speaker 1: that were like, hell, yeah, let's do this, and pretty

1717
01:36:00,360 --> 01:36:03,400
Speaker 1: much it after we got it all formed, UM, we

1718
01:36:03,520 --> 01:36:09,280
Speaker 1: set up some open source intel like workshops and we'd

1719
01:36:09,880 --> 01:36:12,120
Speaker 1: about every other week we get together for two or

1720
01:36:12,120 --> 01:36:17,240
Speaker 1: three hours and learned stuff that sounds that sounds lovely actually, UM.

1721
01:36:17,360 --> 01:36:19,800
Speaker 1: Most of my stuff is usually done alone in my

1722
01:36:19,880 --> 01:36:23,400
Speaker 1: computer dark when I'm on my again tenth cup of

1723
01:36:23,400 --> 01:36:25,519
Speaker 1: coffee of the day, do we go sent in a

1724
01:36:25,560 --> 01:36:26,880
Speaker 1: group of people like that? Sounds like it could be

1725
01:36:26,920 --> 01:36:29,559
Speaker 1: actually kind of fun. So yeah, we're gonna In our

1726
01:36:29,640 --> 01:36:34,080
Speaker 1: last episode we talked about how I tracked down and

1727
01:36:34,120 --> 01:36:36,800
Speaker 1: found out who Written House was the night of of

1728
01:36:37,240 --> 01:36:41,600
Speaker 1: that happening in Kenosha um, and today we're gonna be

1729
01:36:41,680 --> 01:36:45,920
Speaker 1: talking about someone related to January six, um, the infamous

1730
01:36:46,080 --> 01:36:50,439
Speaker 1: zip tie guy as he became known for like two

1731
01:36:50,520 --> 01:36:55,280
Speaker 1: days on the internet before he got his actual day. UM. First,

1732
01:36:55,280 --> 01:36:57,360
Speaker 1: I guess I probably I probably in case you haven't

1733
01:36:57,360 --> 01:36:59,920
Speaker 1: listened to the previous episode I did on Written House,

1734
01:37:00,040 --> 01:37:03,040
Speaker 1: so probably kind of explain what open source stuff is

1735
01:37:03,200 --> 01:37:07,320
Speaker 1: and what like OSAN is and verification. So it's about

1736
01:37:07,360 --> 01:37:11,800
Speaker 1: trying to track down information using open sources um on

1737
01:37:11,960 --> 01:37:14,080
Speaker 1: the Internet. So in terms of like nothing is uh,

1738
01:37:14,200 --> 01:37:17,000
Speaker 1: it's it's all. It's it's it's it's it's already sitting there.

1739
01:37:17,040 --> 01:37:20,840
Speaker 1: Nothing requires like special access, nothing requires you know, you

1740
01:37:20,960 --> 01:37:25,200
Speaker 1: to hack into anyone's system. Um, it's it's stuff is

1741
01:37:25,360 --> 01:37:27,679
Speaker 1: just the stuff that's already sitting there. The data, whether

1742
01:37:27,720 --> 01:37:30,960
Speaker 1: that be you know, geographical data, personal data, data from

1743
01:37:31,000 --> 01:37:34,880
Speaker 1: social media accounts, data from every time you've entered your

1744
01:37:34,920 --> 01:37:37,240
Speaker 1: email into a random website that you maybe didn't know

1745
01:37:37,400 --> 01:37:39,880
Speaker 1: quite what's going on, but you did it. Something that's

1746
01:37:39,920 --> 01:37:43,000
Speaker 1: that gets stored somewhere as data and someone can probably

1747
01:37:43,040 --> 01:37:45,400
Speaker 1: find it. Um. So it's all the stuff about you

1748
01:37:45,479 --> 01:37:48,000
Speaker 1: on the Internet that is all open if you do

1749
01:37:48,040 --> 01:37:52,320
Speaker 1: the digging. UM. Often cases this results in going through

1750
01:37:52,360 --> 01:37:56,400
Speaker 1: social media profiles. UM. That is a good portion of

1751
01:37:56,400 --> 01:37:59,320
Speaker 1: Osan's work is learning how to use Google really well

1752
01:37:59,520 --> 01:38:02,160
Speaker 1: and how to how to how to go through social

1753
01:38:02,160 --> 01:38:05,639
Speaker 1: media UM. Start using like Google search operators, start using

1754
01:38:05,680 --> 01:38:09,120
Speaker 1: social media tools that help you sort through information. Because

1755
01:38:09,160 --> 01:38:11,160
Speaker 1: the information is there, you just have to learn how

1756
01:38:11,160 --> 01:38:12,960
Speaker 1: to sort through it, right, because there's just so much

1757
01:38:13,000 --> 01:38:15,840
Speaker 1: of it. Um. So that's kind of the just to

1758
01:38:15,920 --> 01:38:17,559
Speaker 1: what open source stuff is. You mean, eventually you can

1759
01:38:17,600 --> 01:38:19,960
Speaker 1: get into the stuff like using like Python, using code

1760
01:38:19,960 --> 01:38:22,680
Speaker 1: and scrapers, like. All that stuff is there too, But

1761
01:38:22,760 --> 01:38:24,840
Speaker 1: for our purposes, we're gonna stick to the more simplistic

1762
01:38:24,840 --> 01:38:27,960
Speaker 1: stuff because this is an audio format and I'm I'm

1763
01:38:28,000 --> 01:38:34,320
Speaker 1: not going to start explaining Python code on a podcast. UM.

1764
01:38:34,400 --> 01:38:38,799
Speaker 1: So let's let's let's turn back the clocks a year. UM.

1765
01:38:39,080 --> 01:38:42,360
Speaker 1: A little over a year and it's January six. What's

1766
01:38:42,439 --> 01:38:45,040
Speaker 1: kind of you or your collective's reaction just to kind

1767
01:38:45,080 --> 01:38:48,120
Speaker 1: of watching things unfold, you know, Like as a researcher,

1768
01:38:48,200 --> 01:38:51,600
Speaker 1: every every time I look at these types of you know, protests,

1769
01:38:51,640 --> 01:38:53,559
Speaker 1: you know, whether they be big or small, always part

1770
01:38:53,560 --> 01:38:55,280
Speaker 1: of my brains like trying to make connections and do

1771
01:38:55,320 --> 01:38:58,439
Speaker 1: stuff right. So, as January six is unfolding, what's what's

1772
01:38:58,520 --> 01:39:01,160
Speaker 1: kind of going through? Everyone a post and pressed his head.

1773
01:39:01,920 --> 01:39:05,200
Speaker 1: The first thing that seemed to be collective in everybody's

1774
01:39:05,280 --> 01:39:08,000
Speaker 1: mind was, oh my god, none of these people are

1775
01:39:08,280 --> 01:39:13,599
Speaker 1: wearing face masks. Yea, Like the immediate thing is this

1776
01:39:13,680 --> 01:39:16,120
Speaker 1: is probably going to be really easy for a lot

1777
01:39:16,160 --> 01:39:19,920
Speaker 1: of people. There's nobody. Nobody is in any type of

1778
01:39:19,960 --> 01:39:22,599
Speaker 1: like block or trying to hide their identity in at all,

1779
01:39:23,000 --> 01:39:26,000
Speaker 1: something you see the European fascists actually doing more often.

1780
01:39:26,040 --> 01:39:28,320
Speaker 1: There was a I think of a video from Germany

1781
01:39:28,400 --> 01:39:29,840
Speaker 1: of a whole bunch of far right dude was just

1782
01:39:29,880 --> 01:39:33,040
Speaker 1: to iatan black block, because black blocks a tactic. Um

1783
01:39:33,080 --> 01:39:37,439
Speaker 1: So yeah, but in the States they're specifically January six,

1784
01:39:37,479 --> 01:39:40,439
Speaker 1: it was, Yeah, no one was really worried about keeping

1785
01:39:40,479 --> 01:39:42,479
Speaker 1: their identity secret. They really did not think what they

1786
01:39:42,479 --> 01:39:46,800
Speaker 1: were doing was wrong. I think the other thing we

1787
01:39:46,800 --> 01:39:51,439
Speaker 1: were a lot of us were really angry. Um, just

1788
01:39:52,120 --> 01:39:56,360
Speaker 1: like we had been like yelling that this was gonna happen,

1789
01:39:56,600 --> 01:39:59,720
Speaker 1: screaming it out, like trying to get people to pay attention,

1790
01:40:00,439 --> 01:40:03,599
Speaker 1: and we got blown off so much. I remember, just

1791
01:40:03,680 --> 01:40:06,559
Speaker 1: like a few days before, I got in an argument

1792
01:40:06,600 --> 01:40:09,160
Speaker 1: with the Facebook friend and like people need to be

1793
01:40:09,160 --> 01:40:12,799
Speaker 1: paying attention, like they're planning something. They're like, oh, it's fine,

1794
01:40:12,880 --> 01:40:15,960
Speaker 1: it's fine, and then you know, just a few days later,

1795
01:40:16,040 --> 01:40:18,760
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, is it fine? Like that is kind

1796
01:40:18,760 --> 01:40:21,479
Speaker 1: of always the curse of surveilling all of these things,

1797
01:40:21,479 --> 01:40:24,479
Speaker 1: whether they be like a specific event or some movement

1798
01:40:24,560 --> 01:40:27,080
Speaker 1: in general. Right, people who are really into q and

1799
01:40:27,160 --> 01:40:29,599
Speaker 1: on before the Libs knew what qunan was and we're

1800
01:40:29,640 --> 01:40:33,280
Speaker 1: warning about it for years before you know it resulted

1801
01:40:33,320 --> 01:40:37,200
Speaker 1: in people dying. Um, Right, That's that's kind of always

1802
01:40:37,240 --> 01:40:40,160
Speaker 1: the curse of these things is that it's it's you get,

1803
01:40:40,160 --> 01:40:42,960
Speaker 1: you get the mix of the shock and horder of

1804
01:40:43,000 --> 01:40:47,080
Speaker 1: the thing finally happening, and a weird relief. It's it's, it's,

1805
01:40:47,080 --> 01:40:49,200
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a very bizarre feeling to watch these

1806
01:40:49,240 --> 01:40:53,000
Speaker 1: things unfold because you're like, oh, I'm vindicated, but it

1807
01:40:53,040 --> 01:40:57,520
Speaker 1: sucks that I'm vindicated, right. I remember, like the December

1808
01:40:58,000 --> 01:41:01,280
Speaker 1: watching all these groups like I would just it was

1809
01:41:01,320 --> 01:41:05,240
Speaker 1: just filled with dread. I knew something was gonna happen.

1810
01:41:05,280 --> 01:41:07,920
Speaker 1: I didn't know what was gonna happen, and it was

1811
01:41:07,960 --> 01:41:12,120
Speaker 1: just so much anxiety. And then like it's funny, January six,

1812
01:41:12,160 --> 01:41:14,160
Speaker 1: after it happened, like it all went away. I was

1813
01:41:14,200 --> 01:41:17,920
Speaker 1: able to get a decent night sleep just because there

1814
01:41:18,000 --> 01:41:21,200
Speaker 1: was I didn't have that build up of suspense of

1815
01:41:21,680 --> 01:41:24,280
Speaker 1: what what is it gonna be? What's it gonna look like?

1816
01:41:24,400 --> 01:41:27,840
Speaker 1: How bad is it going to be? Um kind of

1817
01:41:27,880 --> 01:41:32,320
Speaker 1: had that release. Yeah. Unfortunately they were all like amateur,

1818
01:41:32,520 --> 01:41:34,400
Speaker 1: didn't know what they were doing, and it wasn't as

1819
01:41:34,400 --> 01:41:38,200
Speaker 1: bad as it could have been. Yeah. Well, I think

1820
01:41:38,560 --> 01:41:40,400
Speaker 1: as for the open source stuff, I'm going to kind

1821
01:41:40,439 --> 01:41:43,639
Speaker 1: of walk us through chronologically and of in terms of

1822
01:41:44,000 --> 01:41:48,599
Speaker 1: the journey of zip tie Guy, because I was doing

1823
01:41:48,600 --> 01:41:51,439
Speaker 1: like archiving on January six, but zip Tyke I was

1824
01:41:51,479 --> 01:41:54,960
Speaker 1: really the only dude I was interested in identifying. There

1825
01:41:55,000 --> 01:41:57,120
Speaker 1: was there was a lot of other people doing really

1826
01:41:57,120 --> 01:42:01,600
Speaker 1: great identification work. I was also generous six. I was

1827
01:42:01,640 --> 01:42:04,719
Speaker 1: going through all the social media history of Ashley Babbitt,

1828
01:42:05,120 --> 01:42:08,879
Speaker 1: archiving all of her Twitter and Facebook, like years of stuff.

1829
01:42:09,200 --> 01:42:12,280
Speaker 1: I was to chronicle how she went from like an

1830
01:42:12,280 --> 01:42:14,800
Speaker 1: Obama voter to a q and on from a proponent.

1831
01:42:14,960 --> 01:42:16,519
Speaker 1: So that was what I was doing, and I was

1832
01:42:16,520 --> 01:42:19,680
Speaker 1: writing an article with Belling Cat about that. Um. But

1833
01:42:19,720 --> 01:42:21,880
Speaker 1: the only only other guy I wanted to identify was

1834
01:42:21,960 --> 01:42:24,439
Speaker 1: zip tie guy because he was really interesting. He was

1835
01:42:24,479 --> 01:42:27,519
Speaker 1: one of the few guys that was masked up. UM,

1836
01:42:27,600 --> 01:42:29,519
Speaker 1: he had what he had visible weapons on him. He

1837
01:42:29,520 --> 01:42:32,160
Speaker 1: was obviously carrying zip ties. You know, it gives you

1838
01:42:32,200 --> 01:42:35,000
Speaker 1: images of like, oh yeah, it's like they're planning to

1839
01:42:35,040 --> 01:42:37,760
Speaker 1: capture and execute people. That was like the general kind

1840
01:42:37,800 --> 01:42:41,559
Speaker 1: of vibe um of that. So he was the only

1841
01:42:41,600 --> 01:42:43,800
Speaker 1: person that I I was actually put work into identifying, and

1842
01:42:43,840 --> 01:42:45,960
Speaker 1: I put a decent amount of work in. Now, I

1843
01:42:45,960 --> 01:42:48,880
Speaker 1: I failed where other people succeeded, and we can talk

1844
01:42:48,880 --> 01:42:52,280
Speaker 1: about like why in a sec But for like a

1845
01:42:52,439 --> 01:42:54,880
Speaker 1: day at least, all we had to go on was

1846
01:42:55,040 --> 01:42:59,080
Speaker 1: the picture of the guy holding the zip ties in

1847
01:42:59,160 --> 01:43:02,680
Speaker 1: a mask. UM. There's a few other pictures of him

1848
01:43:02,720 --> 01:43:05,280
Speaker 1: around from that day, but it's mostly mostly one picture

1849
01:43:05,479 --> 01:43:09,720
Speaker 1: and the biggest clue that we had to start with, Um,

1850
01:43:09,760 --> 01:43:11,920
Speaker 1: what what what what? Why don't you explain what the

1851
01:43:11,960 --> 01:43:13,360
Speaker 1: what the first clue is and how that may be

1852
01:43:13,439 --> 01:43:17,880
Speaker 1: piqued your interest. He had two patches on his vest,

1853
01:43:18,080 --> 01:43:20,920
Speaker 1: and one of them was a thin blue line patch,

1854
01:43:21,000 --> 01:43:23,559
Speaker 1: but it was in this uh shape of the state

1855
01:43:23,600 --> 01:43:29,280
Speaker 1: of Tennessee. So so yeah, in terms of having a

1856
01:43:29,320 --> 01:43:32,639
Speaker 1: decent lead, that is like, okay, well that that narrows

1857
01:43:32,640 --> 01:43:35,360
Speaker 1: it down to one of fifties states, probably right, Yeah,

1858
01:43:35,479 --> 01:43:38,920
Speaker 1: I should say I'm from Knoxville, so like it be

1859
01:43:39,000 --> 01:43:41,840
Speaker 1: in Tennessee that I picked up on that because that's

1860
01:43:41,840 --> 01:43:44,320
Speaker 1: my state. Yeah, that it becomes a local problem. I

1861
01:43:44,439 --> 01:43:47,679
Speaker 1: and as someone in Oregon, I definitely understand that feeling

1862
01:43:47,760 --> 01:43:52,719
Speaker 1: of of yeah, when fascism becomes a local problem of Yeah,

1863
01:43:52,880 --> 01:43:56,639
Speaker 1: So that definitely piqued your interest specifically, but then also

1864
01:43:56,760 --> 01:43:59,000
Speaker 1: gives a really good lead for like where to look

1865
01:43:59,040 --> 01:44:03,639
Speaker 1: because ozar he's not trying to do a meta thing

1866
01:44:03,760 --> 01:44:07,040
Speaker 1: by tricking us into giving us a false lead. Generally

1867
01:44:07,280 --> 01:44:09,840
Speaker 1: people don't do that as often in real life as

1868
01:44:09,880 --> 01:44:13,559
Speaker 1: they do in television. Um, but there's still has plenty

1869
01:44:13,600 --> 01:44:15,479
Speaker 1: of other ways to detect I mean, I I love

1870
01:44:15,560 --> 01:44:18,759
Speaker 1: I love detecting, and there's there's enough, there's enough stuff

1871
01:44:18,800 --> 01:44:22,200
Speaker 1: to do otherwise that making it needlessly complicated as honestly,

1872
01:44:23,040 --> 01:44:27,400
Speaker 1: I'm fine with it not being that. Um. So, yeah,

1873
01:44:27,720 --> 01:44:31,960
Speaker 1: we had we had that to go off initially, so

1874
01:44:32,400 --> 01:44:36,160
Speaker 1: starting looking for like far right activity in Tennessee. Now

1875
01:44:36,200 --> 01:44:37,880
Speaker 1: I was an outsiders. I didn't really know where to

1876
01:44:37,920 --> 01:44:41,760
Speaker 1: start in terms of specific rallies. But I know, used, Uh,

1877
01:44:42,240 --> 01:44:44,439
Speaker 1: at what point did you start looking trying to like

1878
01:44:44,479 --> 01:44:46,519
Speaker 1: go through pictures of specific rallies to try to like

1879
01:44:46,640 --> 01:44:50,680
Speaker 1: match clothing or stuff. I think it was probably it

1880
01:44:50,720 --> 01:44:53,439
Speaker 1: may have been that day or the day after when

1881
01:44:53,439 --> 01:44:58,680
Speaker 1: I started going through the notebooks that I had, like

1882
01:44:58,880 --> 01:45:03,880
Speaker 1: names of just people we suspected may become problems. Um,

1883
01:45:03,960 --> 01:45:07,439
Speaker 1: and I started looking at their profiles again and you know,

1884
01:45:09,080 --> 01:45:12,559
Speaker 1: didn't find anything. And in our research that we had

1885
01:45:12,560 --> 01:45:16,439
Speaker 1: already done, we didn't see anything on OK. Yeah, I

1886
01:45:16,439 --> 01:45:18,000
Speaker 1: mean that was kind of the case for me as well.

1887
01:45:18,040 --> 01:45:20,760
Speaker 1: With just the picture of the zip tie a guy

1888
01:45:20,920 --> 01:45:22,960
Speaker 1: with the patch, I mean, it's it's a lead, but

1889
01:45:22,960 --> 01:45:27,120
Speaker 1: there wasn't tons to go on. But thankfully, thankfully are

1890
01:45:27,720 --> 01:45:30,760
Speaker 1: are good friends. At January six, we're giving us more

1891
01:45:30,760 --> 01:45:35,760
Speaker 1: clues as because as the Simpsons meme goes videotaping this

1892
01:45:35,840 --> 01:45:39,280
Speaker 1: crime scene was the best idea we ever had. Um. So,

1893
01:45:39,920 --> 01:45:44,000
Speaker 1: like January I think seventh, there was a live stream

1894
01:45:44,080 --> 01:45:46,920
Speaker 1: video that was kind of circulating through like anti facist

1895
01:45:46,920 --> 01:45:49,200
Speaker 1: group chats um. It was. It was posted like publicly

1896
01:45:49,320 --> 01:45:52,200
Speaker 1: to get everyone's attention on it on January eight, um,

1897
01:45:52,240 --> 01:45:53,759
Speaker 1: but for like a day it was kind of passing

1898
01:45:53,800 --> 01:45:57,679
Speaker 1: through back channels and throughout in this live stream, which

1899
01:45:57,680 --> 01:46:00,679
Speaker 1: is Yeah, there was so many people were live streaming

1900
01:46:00,760 --> 01:46:02,880
Speaker 1: that night and it is a kind of surreal thing

1901
01:46:02,920 --> 01:46:06,479
Speaker 1: to watch of them. This this this live stream in particular,

1902
01:46:06,479 --> 01:46:09,320
Speaker 1: it is the zip Ti guy if you his friends, um,

1903
01:46:09,320 --> 01:46:11,240
Speaker 1: I think his mom and a few and just ran

1904
01:46:11,320 --> 01:46:13,640
Speaker 1: the people from January six all hanging out at a

1905
01:46:13,680 --> 01:46:16,640
Speaker 1: hotel room afterwards, like it's it is it is the

1906
01:46:16,760 --> 01:46:19,280
Speaker 1: night of the six and they're all just hanging out

1907
01:46:19,600 --> 01:46:23,000
Speaker 1: again totally like no masks, they're they're they're in a

1908
01:46:23,040 --> 01:46:25,840
Speaker 1: hotel lobby, no masks, um, and they're just like hanging

1909
01:46:25,840 --> 01:46:27,840
Speaker 1: out on chilly like sitting on the couch and chatting

1910
01:46:27,840 --> 01:46:30,240
Speaker 1: for like half an hour. It's one of the weirdest

1911
01:46:30,320 --> 01:46:32,800
Speaker 1: videos to watch. All all of the live streams from

1912
01:46:32,800 --> 01:46:35,840
Speaker 1: that night are so surreal because it is like this

1913
01:46:35,880 --> 01:46:38,880
Speaker 1: transitionary period of like after the capital attack but before

1914
01:46:38,920 --> 01:46:42,200
Speaker 1: every before, like people like go down on them, so

1915
01:46:42,280 --> 01:46:44,439
Speaker 1: they don't really know how to behave They still think

1916
01:46:44,479 --> 01:46:46,559
Speaker 1: what they did was kind of fine, even though at

1917
01:46:46,560 --> 01:46:48,160
Speaker 1: this point, like I think like four or five people

1918
01:46:48,200 --> 01:46:51,479
Speaker 1: are dead. Um, but it's so weird just watch them

1919
01:46:51,520 --> 01:46:54,080
Speaker 1: just interact like such normal people in this moment, like

1920
01:46:54,320 --> 01:46:56,680
Speaker 1: after they did this thing. Then they go in this

1921
01:46:56,720 --> 01:46:59,439
Speaker 1: hotel room and they're acting completely normal. So it's it's

1922
01:46:59,479 --> 01:47:02,880
Speaker 1: just a weird video in general. But what it does

1923
01:47:03,000 --> 01:47:05,920
Speaker 1: have is someone in the same outfit as zip Ti

1924
01:47:06,000 --> 01:47:08,519
Speaker 1: guy with no mask on you actually we actually can

1925
01:47:08,560 --> 01:47:12,080
Speaker 1: see his full face yea. Getting to see his full

1926
01:47:12,120 --> 01:47:17,120
Speaker 1: face was a big, big, health, big help because we ever,

1927
01:47:17,439 --> 01:47:19,360
Speaker 1: everyone was looking for pictures of this guy without his

1928
01:47:19,439 --> 01:47:21,880
Speaker 1: mask all like for the entirety of the day. So

1929
01:47:21,920 --> 01:47:24,400
Speaker 1: now having a whole video where we can see like

1930
01:47:24,479 --> 01:47:27,719
Speaker 1: all of the angles of him was great. It was perfect.

1931
01:47:28,000 --> 01:47:30,439
Speaker 1: The best. The best thing that was really the beauty

1932
01:47:30,479 --> 01:47:33,160
Speaker 1: of of all of of all of all the January

1933
01:47:33,240 --> 01:47:36,439
Speaker 1: six documentation is how many people were live streaming themselves

1934
01:47:36,439 --> 01:47:39,200
Speaker 1: doing crimes and their friends. Um it did. It did

1935
01:47:39,280 --> 01:47:42,120
Speaker 1: make the archiving and uh well not the archiving part.

1936
01:47:42,240 --> 01:47:45,360
Speaker 1: Archiving is always painful and tedious, but it made the

1937
01:47:45,360 --> 01:47:47,880
Speaker 1: actual research afterwards a lot easier because there was so

1938
01:47:47,960 --> 01:47:51,000
Speaker 1: much the documentation of it. So, yeah, we we got

1939
01:47:51,000 --> 01:47:53,599
Speaker 1: we got this video. I'm gonna explain how I kind

1940
01:47:53,600 --> 01:47:57,360
Speaker 1: of took this video and failed to reach the conclusion,

1941
01:47:57,400 --> 01:48:00,360
Speaker 1: and then we can talk about how you succeeded. But first,

1942
01:48:00,840 --> 01:48:03,960
Speaker 1: but first we're gonna hear some ads from our lovely

1943
01:48:04,320 --> 01:48:08,479
Speaker 1: products and services. Robert was here for our previous recording

1944
01:48:08,920 --> 01:48:12,080
Speaker 1: uh that we tried to end I failed, and he

1945
01:48:12,160 --> 01:48:14,880
Speaker 1: made some very good jokes uh and very good segways

1946
01:48:14,960 --> 01:48:18,840
Speaker 1: about how all of our sponsors support insurrection just like

1947
01:48:18,920 --> 01:48:21,400
Speaker 1: January six, And if I tried to repeat the jokes,

1948
01:48:21,400 --> 01:48:23,280
Speaker 1: it will be stupid. So I'm just gonna I'm just

1949
01:48:23,320 --> 01:48:25,320
Speaker 1: gonna give you the sense there was a joke, and

1950
01:48:25,320 --> 01:48:29,439
Speaker 1: now you're gonna be left with that dissatisfaction. So bye, goodbye.

1951
01:48:29,560 --> 01:48:33,360
Speaker 1: Here's some ads. Okay, we're back, and I'm going to

1952
01:48:33,479 --> 01:48:36,200
Speaker 1: give an extremely brief rundown on how I failed to

1953
01:48:36,240 --> 01:48:38,760
Speaker 1: do uh well, I didn't fail to do research. I

1954
01:48:38,800 --> 01:48:41,400
Speaker 1: did research. I just didn't reach a proper conclusion. Um

1955
01:48:41,479 --> 01:48:44,720
Speaker 1: and I knew that. So the the the other the

1956
01:48:44,760 --> 01:48:48,120
Speaker 1: other thing about Zip Tie Guy he had he had

1957
01:48:48,120 --> 01:48:50,280
Speaker 1: the patch of like the thin blue line in Tennessee.

1958
01:48:50,640 --> 01:48:54,000
Speaker 1: And then that's at then I soon after got the

1959
01:48:54,520 --> 01:48:58,120
Speaker 1: video of his face and uh interacting with people. And

1960
01:48:58,200 --> 01:49:01,200
Speaker 1: the the other thing is I think, um we the

1961
01:49:01,400 --> 01:49:04,880
Speaker 1: hat he was wearing in the Siptie Guy photo was

1962
01:49:05,000 --> 01:49:09,080
Speaker 1: I think was tracked back to be um our favorite

1963
01:49:09,280 --> 01:49:13,120
Speaker 1: coffee company, Black Rifle Coffee merchandise. It was it was

1964
01:49:13,160 --> 01:49:15,120
Speaker 1: like what was what was one of the hats they sell?

1965
01:49:15,680 --> 01:49:19,160
Speaker 1: So me, being clever, I'm like, okay, here's this Black

1966
01:49:19,200 --> 01:49:22,599
Speaker 1: Raffer Coffee hat, this patch in Tennessee. I know Black

1967
01:49:22,680 --> 01:49:25,479
Speaker 1: Ripe Coffee is based out of Tennessee. I'm gonna go

1968
01:49:25,560 --> 01:49:27,800
Speaker 1: look through everyone who works for Black Raffle Coffee, which

1969
01:49:27,800 --> 01:49:30,519
Speaker 1: you mean isn't a bad instinct as an outsider. But

1970
01:49:30,840 --> 01:49:33,719
Speaker 1: it did not. It did not succeed. But the funny

1971
01:49:33,760 --> 01:49:36,800
Speaker 1: thing is is that while looking through all the employees

1972
01:49:36,800 --> 01:49:39,520
Speaker 1: at Black Apple Coffee, all of them do look identical

1973
01:49:39,560 --> 01:49:43,800
Speaker 1: to Zip Tie Guy. They all same characteristics. They all

1974
01:49:43,840 --> 01:49:46,839
Speaker 1: look exactly the same on their their beards, their nose,

1975
01:49:46,960 --> 01:49:50,439
Speaker 1: their forehead, their hair, all of them identical, every single

1976
01:49:50,439 --> 01:49:52,040
Speaker 1: one of them, to the point where the only way

1977
01:49:52,040 --> 01:49:53,960
Speaker 1: I could tell that it wasn't the zip tie guy

1978
01:49:54,080 --> 01:49:56,360
Speaker 1: was being like, Okay, no, he has a mole here,

1979
01:49:57,240 --> 01:49:59,640
Speaker 1: he has like a birthmark here. This way, his like

1980
01:49:59,720 --> 01:50:01,960
Speaker 1: his eyes or his eye wrinkles are different. So it's

1981
01:50:01,960 --> 01:50:04,759
Speaker 1: like it's going down to the very like fine tuned

1982
01:50:04,800 --> 01:50:09,080
Speaker 1: facial features, because all of their face shapes are like identical.

1983
01:50:10,000 --> 01:50:12,479
Speaker 1: I think there's a point that I had the same instinct.

1984
01:50:12,479 --> 01:50:15,120
Speaker 1: I think I know there's a point that I went through,

1985
01:50:15,479 --> 01:50:20,960
Speaker 1: um the black coffee rifle. All of their people look um.

1986
01:50:21,000 --> 01:50:24,280
Speaker 1: I don't know if it was for Eric until or

1987
01:50:24,320 --> 01:50:27,519
Speaker 1: if it was like maybe around the written house stuff.

1988
01:50:27,560 --> 01:50:31,920
Speaker 1: I don't know. Uh. Yeah, So that that's that's what

1989
01:50:31,960 --> 01:50:35,639
Speaker 1: I spent my time doing, is going through everybody who

1990
01:50:35,680 --> 01:50:39,760
Speaker 1: works there of Uh. But but by the time I

1991
01:50:39,840 --> 01:50:43,840
Speaker 1: kind of gave up on that, the identity was already discovered,

1992
01:50:44,720 --> 01:50:47,960
Speaker 1: um and posted by your team at a Possum Press.

1993
01:50:48,320 --> 01:50:51,280
Speaker 1: So how how did you get from you know, this

1994
01:50:52,320 --> 01:50:55,880
Speaker 1: zip Tygi picture than the light the archived livestream video

1995
01:50:55,920 --> 01:50:58,679
Speaker 1: of him without without a mask, to to the point

1996
01:50:58,680 --> 01:51:02,000
Speaker 1: where you could say, hey, this is his name. But

1997
01:51:02,240 --> 01:51:06,400
Speaker 1: well I was I wasn't even really in contact with

1998
01:51:06,640 --> 01:51:10,320
Speaker 1: Like we as a group weren't messaging each other trying

1999
01:51:10,360 --> 01:51:13,479
Speaker 1: to figure this out together, but we were, like it

2000
01:51:13,520 --> 01:51:16,320
Speaker 1: turns out a few of us were working separately. So

2001
01:51:16,360 --> 01:51:20,400
Speaker 1: while I'm going through social media. UM, a friend in

2002
01:51:20,520 --> 01:51:25,120
Speaker 1: Nashville was um going through pictures of the protests from

2003
01:51:25,160 --> 01:51:29,439
Speaker 1: there over the summer, and they ended up finding about

2004
01:51:29,479 --> 01:51:33,599
Speaker 1: five different pictures, I think, and we knew we knew

2005
01:51:33,640 --> 01:51:35,759
Speaker 1: most of the people in the pictures. That are maybe

2006
01:51:35,800 --> 01:51:37,680
Speaker 1: like one or two that we did not know, And

2007
01:51:37,760 --> 01:51:41,799
Speaker 1: one was always Eric Munchell and he's wearing the exact

2008
01:51:41,840 --> 01:51:46,439
Speaker 1: same gear he wore January six. Um, I say, Eric Munchell,

2009
01:51:46,479 --> 01:51:51,800
Speaker 1: we didn't know his name yet then, so UM, from there,

2010
01:51:51,840 --> 01:51:54,040
Speaker 1: we kind of we went ahead and posted what we

2011
01:51:54,160 --> 01:51:57,280
Speaker 1: had to Twitter, and then we went back to the

2012
01:51:57,360 --> 01:52:01,720
Speaker 1: social media and I started looking through the UM profiles

2013
01:52:01,760 --> 01:52:06,160
Speaker 1: that were the people we knew, and sure enough, one

2014
01:52:06,240 --> 01:52:10,519
Speaker 1: of them, Kurt Dennis, had a live stream that was

2015
01:52:10,640 --> 01:52:15,040
Speaker 1: telling the story, um, the same story that Eric Mutchell

2016
01:52:15,080 --> 01:52:20,040
Speaker 1: told him that thirty minute video, and he actually while

2017
01:52:20,160 --> 01:52:25,240
Speaker 1: telling it, he's like, yeah, my buddy Eric. So at

2018
01:52:25,280 --> 01:52:28,840
Speaker 1: that point we go to his friends list and sure enough,

2019
01:52:28,920 --> 01:52:31,919
Speaker 1: he only has one Eric there and it's Eric Mutchell.

2020
01:52:32,200 --> 01:52:34,680
Speaker 1: And there we go to that page and find some

2021
01:52:34,760 --> 01:52:36,839
Speaker 1: of the same gear in the background of the pictures

2022
01:52:36,880 --> 01:52:39,640
Speaker 1: that he has publicly posted. Yeah, he like puts the

2023
01:52:39,680 --> 01:52:42,519
Speaker 1: pictures of him and his gear with like guns, and yeah,

2024
01:52:42,720 --> 01:52:44,400
Speaker 1: you can. You can track all of his like facial

2025
01:52:44,560 --> 01:52:47,120
Speaker 1: like like like like birth marks and stuff. They're all

2026
01:52:47,120 --> 01:52:50,560
Speaker 1: the same. So yeah, you and that that's you. Uh,

2027
01:52:50,760 --> 01:52:56,040
Speaker 1: you definitely got him of Yeah, their own mistakes. Yeah,

2028
01:52:56,040 --> 01:52:58,960
Speaker 1: that's that's my favorite part. Like they they gave us

2029
01:52:59,520 --> 01:53:03,000
Speaker 1: his idea, and they often, if not handing themselves to

2030
01:53:03,040 --> 01:53:05,040
Speaker 1: you on a silver pill adder, they at least have

2031
01:53:05,080 --> 01:53:08,639
Speaker 1: a platter um. They they often there's often enough bread, right.

2032
01:53:08,680 --> 01:53:10,479
Speaker 1: The reason why these things are solved because there are

2033
01:53:10,560 --> 01:53:12,880
Speaker 1: enough bread comes to follow and often they kind of

2034
01:53:12,960 --> 01:53:16,639
Speaker 1: leave pretty big chunks of bread. Um. Just the fact

2035
01:53:16,680 --> 01:53:19,639
Speaker 1: that again added to the surreal aspect of that whole

2036
01:53:19,720 --> 01:53:23,360
Speaker 1: live stream video, the fact that he's like, you matched

2037
01:53:23,360 --> 01:53:25,840
Speaker 1: it by telling the same you can hear them someone

2038
01:53:25,880 --> 01:53:28,559
Speaker 1: tell the same story, is just such a weird weird

2039
01:53:28,600 --> 01:53:31,880
Speaker 1: surreal thing. Yeah, so I think in terms of like

2040
01:53:31,920 --> 01:53:35,679
Speaker 1: oas and stuff, what this case study in particular really

2041
01:53:36,520 --> 01:53:41,400
Speaker 1: highlights is the importance of archival stuff. Right. The reason

2042
01:53:41,439 --> 01:53:43,120
Speaker 1: why you were able to solve this and not me

2043
01:53:43,560 --> 01:53:46,559
Speaker 1: is because I wasn't. I mean, I did my own

2044
01:53:46,640 --> 01:53:51,080
Speaker 1: archival thing for archiving, like the video. But um, the

2045
01:53:51,120 --> 01:53:53,599
Speaker 1: way that you were able to really crack this open

2046
01:53:53,640 --> 01:53:56,280
Speaker 1: and everyone else who worked on it is because you

2047
01:53:56,400 --> 01:54:00,280
Speaker 1: had like those lists of connections of people who are

2048
01:54:00,320 --> 01:54:03,760
Speaker 1: already kind of active in this like al right far

2049
01:54:03,880 --> 01:54:06,519
Speaker 1: right scene within your local community. Like you already had

2050
01:54:06,600 --> 01:54:10,080
Speaker 1: documentation of the major players who they interact with, or

2051
01:54:10,200 --> 01:54:12,479
Speaker 1: you you already had pictures of this guy in gear

2052
01:54:12,840 --> 01:54:16,280
Speaker 1: with other known people. So the fact that there was

2053
01:54:16,320 --> 01:54:20,680
Speaker 1: already previously work archived really made the success of this

2054
01:54:21,040 --> 01:54:26,479
Speaker 1: so much more possible. That's what they but People's Plaza

2055
01:54:26,479 --> 01:54:29,800
Speaker 1: and Nashville during their protests, they were really big on documenting.

2056
01:54:30,280 --> 01:54:33,960
Speaker 1: Um they documented everything with the police and um any

2057
01:54:33,960 --> 01:54:38,120
Speaker 1: counter protesters they would. They had professional photographers out there

2058
01:54:38,920 --> 01:54:43,120
Speaker 1: making sure we had good, clear quality pictures of like

2059
01:54:44,000 --> 01:54:47,160
Speaker 1: everybody on the other side as well, and that definitely

2060
01:54:47,200 --> 01:54:51,600
Speaker 1: helped us a lot. Yeah, because especially before January six,

2061
01:54:52,000 --> 01:54:57,440
Speaker 1: they there was they did a decent job of archiving themselves,

2062
01:54:57,440 --> 01:55:00,800
Speaker 1: well not not archiving, but like filming them selves and

2063
01:55:00,840 --> 01:55:03,800
Speaker 1: documenting themselves, and then you know, it takes takes other

2064
01:55:03,800 --> 01:55:07,280
Speaker 1: research to then archives that. So not only is important

2065
01:55:07,320 --> 01:55:10,000
Speaker 1: just to like look at the research and look at

2066
01:55:10,040 --> 01:55:12,600
Speaker 1: like the documentation of the that people do of themselves,

2067
01:55:12,760 --> 01:55:14,400
Speaker 1: but then make sure that you have a source for

2068
01:55:14,440 --> 01:55:17,800
Speaker 1: that that's not their own uploading of it. Right. So,

2069
01:55:17,880 --> 01:55:20,720
Speaker 1: like a great example is like all of the live

2070
01:55:20,760 --> 01:55:22,720
Speaker 1: streams from January six, including like this one from this

2071
01:55:22,720 --> 01:55:25,280
Speaker 1: hotel room. Pretty soon it was deleted by the person

2072
01:55:25,320 --> 01:55:27,839
Speaker 1: who posted it because they realized, oh maybe I shouldn't

2073
01:55:27,880 --> 01:55:31,240
Speaker 1: have this living record of my crimes. Um. But at

2074
01:55:31,280 --> 01:55:34,040
Speaker 1: that point, people already saved the video. They already like

2075
01:55:34,320 --> 01:55:37,240
Speaker 1: I already ran it through a video of saving program

2076
01:55:37,480 --> 01:55:41,200
Speaker 1: that I had. UM. So it's it's important not only

2077
01:55:41,240 --> 01:55:46,200
Speaker 1: to get archiving having having having previous documentation of people

2078
01:55:46,200 --> 01:55:49,200
Speaker 1: and known players, but then as new information is coming out,

2079
01:55:49,440 --> 01:55:51,520
Speaker 1: make sure you make separate copies of that for your

2080
01:55:51,520 --> 01:55:54,200
Speaker 1: own sake so that you actually have it and then

2081
01:55:54,200 --> 01:55:57,080
Speaker 1: you're not gonna be stuck looking for something that's gone right,

2082
01:55:57,240 --> 01:56:00,000
Speaker 1: the worst case scenarios to like you know that there

2083
01:56:00,040 --> 01:56:02,560
Speaker 1: is an important thing, but you just don't have access

2084
01:56:02,600 --> 01:56:04,880
Speaker 1: to it anymore. It's like you you remember seeing it,

2085
01:56:05,000 --> 01:56:07,320
Speaker 1: you didn't save it, and now it's gone. That's a

2086
01:56:07,320 --> 01:56:09,320
Speaker 1: horrible feeling to do when you're trying to get this

2087
01:56:09,400 --> 01:56:12,680
Speaker 1: kind of research done. Um. And like it happens. We all,

2088
01:56:12,760 --> 01:56:15,480
Speaker 1: we all make mistakes like this. Um, I definitely have

2089
01:56:15,600 --> 01:56:18,560
Speaker 1: it happened to me actually this week. Yeah, it happens

2090
01:56:18,600 --> 01:56:20,840
Speaker 1: all the time. And it happens to me. It happens

2091
01:56:20,880 --> 01:56:22,440
Speaker 1: to be all the time. I'll look at something and

2092
01:56:22,520 --> 01:56:24,880
Speaker 1: be like I should probably save this. I get distracted

2093
01:56:25,200 --> 01:56:26,960
Speaker 1: or I just don't want to because our chindague is

2094
01:56:27,000 --> 01:56:29,640
Speaker 1: boring and tedious, and then I check again that's gone.

2095
01:56:29,680 --> 01:56:33,800
Speaker 1: I'm like, well that's I should have archived it. Yeah.

2096
01:56:34,480 --> 01:56:37,120
Speaker 1: So on on top of all of the archiving stuff,

2097
01:56:37,200 --> 01:56:40,200
Speaker 1: which in general, anti fascist research is really that that's

2098
01:56:40,240 --> 01:56:43,560
Speaker 1: the thing that really excels at even like um above

2099
01:56:43,760 --> 01:56:48,120
Speaker 1: above journalism is like you know, getting like traditional journalism

2100
01:56:48,280 --> 01:56:51,959
Speaker 1: is like getting a good documentation of like key fascist

2101
01:56:51,960 --> 01:56:54,640
Speaker 1: players in your area, key people who are kind of

2102
01:56:54,680 --> 01:56:57,480
Speaker 1: pushing far right stuff and far right violence. Actually getting

2103
01:56:57,480 --> 01:57:00,240
Speaker 1: like a good a good, a good idea of who

2104
01:57:00,280 --> 01:57:04,000
Speaker 1: they are and having that knowledge always handy. Um is

2105
01:57:04,040 --> 01:57:07,160
Speaker 1: something that this type of research is is really that

2106
01:57:07,320 --> 01:57:09,720
Speaker 1: that is really what it excels at, or like what

2107
01:57:09,720 --> 01:57:12,160
Speaker 1: what the what those researchers excel at. This is the

2108
01:57:12,160 --> 01:57:14,200
Speaker 1: thing that they do very well. I think a lot

2109
01:57:14,280 --> 01:57:17,360
Speaker 1: of us probably started doing it just out of curiosity

2110
01:57:17,480 --> 01:57:21,560
Speaker 1: looking into people. That that is certainly how I started,

2111
01:57:22,760 --> 01:57:26,240
Speaker 1: Like I've been doing it long before, I just didn't

2112
01:57:26,280 --> 01:57:29,000
Speaker 1: know that's what it was called. Because like I'd see

2113
01:57:29,040 --> 01:57:32,840
Speaker 1: somebody make a messed up common online, I'm like, who

2114
01:57:32,960 --> 01:57:35,240
Speaker 1: is this person? And then you know, trying to find

2115
01:57:35,240 --> 01:57:39,160
Speaker 1: as much as I can about them. Yeah, that's that

2116
01:57:39,280 --> 01:57:41,160
Speaker 1: is certainly how I got started with this type of thing,

2117
01:57:41,560 --> 01:57:45,080
Speaker 1: because it can be fun to look for bad people.

2118
01:57:45,200 --> 01:57:49,400
Speaker 1: It is, it is. It is kind of pleasurable. Um

2119
01:57:49,480 --> 01:57:53,520
Speaker 1: and one of one of the again another big contributing factor.

2120
01:57:53,560 --> 01:57:55,760
Speaker 1: And how you got zip tie guy, How how I

2121
01:57:55,800 --> 01:57:58,280
Speaker 1: got written? How how a lot of this stuff works.

2122
01:57:58,760 --> 01:58:02,200
Speaker 1: Um is the beauty of Facebook as a research tool

2123
01:58:03,080 --> 01:58:06,640
Speaker 1: because often in order in order in order to do

2124
01:58:06,680 --> 01:58:09,440
Speaker 1: the archiving, you need to have stuff to archive, and

2125
01:58:09,480 --> 01:58:11,640
Speaker 1: a lot of the stuff that gets posted from these

2126
01:58:11,640 --> 01:58:15,760
Speaker 1: things by the people doing them UM is done on Facebook,

2127
01:58:15,880 --> 01:58:19,440
Speaker 1: or at least it used to write the past five years, really,

2128
01:58:19,800 --> 01:58:23,200
Speaker 1: Facebook has been the main main source of this UM.

2129
01:58:23,280 --> 01:58:25,760
Speaker 1: Now it's maybe now people are kind of getting wise

2130
01:58:25,840 --> 01:58:28,520
Speaker 1: and maybe some stuff is moving to telegram. Facebook is

2131
01:58:28,520 --> 01:58:30,640
Speaker 1: becoming a little a little bit less important of a

2132
01:58:30,640 --> 01:58:32,960
Speaker 1: platform for this type of research. And I know Facebook

2133
01:58:32,960 --> 01:58:35,280
Speaker 1: has changed the way that they um that you can

2134
01:58:35,560 --> 01:58:37,840
Speaker 1: use their service, so it does make research kind of

2135
01:58:37,880 --> 01:58:40,480
Speaker 1: harder in some ways, but but even still it is

2136
01:58:40,600 --> 01:58:43,800
Speaker 1: it is one of the better tools to UM to

2137
01:58:43,920 --> 01:58:46,040
Speaker 1: dig into certain types of people, because there is certain

2138
01:58:46,080 --> 01:58:48,080
Speaker 1: types of people who are going to be more likely

2139
01:58:48,120 --> 01:58:53,760
Speaker 1: to use Facebook. UM. And yeah, in terms of how

2140
01:58:54,400 --> 01:58:58,640
Speaker 1: getting Facebook was the method, it's not where the place

2141
01:58:58,720 --> 01:59:01,280
Speaker 1: where you're able to make the link between the fascists

2142
01:59:01,280 --> 01:59:05,800
Speaker 1: you already knew and and Eric um because of because

2143
01:59:05,840 --> 01:59:07,680
Speaker 1: you are you already you you already knew who the

2144
01:59:07,680 --> 01:59:10,680
Speaker 1: players were, and then Facebook had the visualized network to

2145
01:59:10,720 --> 01:59:14,880
Speaker 1: actually make those connections. So Facebook itself and social media

2146
01:59:14,880 --> 01:59:17,680
Speaker 1: in general is really is really useful. And then in

2147
01:59:17,760 --> 01:59:19,800
Speaker 1: terms of how this operate, it's like going through friends

2148
01:59:19,840 --> 01:59:23,600
Speaker 1: lists is really easy. UM but oftentimes a lot of

2149
01:59:23,600 --> 01:59:26,839
Speaker 1: people will not maybe have those public um and what

2150
01:59:26,880 --> 01:59:30,040
Speaker 1: what then there's again it's not a dead road. You

2151
01:59:30,040 --> 01:59:32,760
Speaker 1: can still look through likes, you can still look through shares,

2152
01:59:32,840 --> 01:59:35,160
Speaker 1: you can still look through like um if you like

2153
01:59:35,400 --> 01:59:39,440
Speaker 1: people are tagged in photos. Um it it really it

2154
01:59:39,520 --> 01:59:42,360
Speaker 1: really is a is a great is a great system

2155
01:59:42,400 --> 01:59:46,000
Speaker 1: that is good at making you not have privacy. That

2156
01:59:46,120 --> 01:59:49,880
Speaker 1: is the thing. It really it really excels it. Yeah,

2157
01:59:50,000 --> 01:59:53,960
Speaker 1: and even even if people don't have like an active

2158
01:59:54,280 --> 01:59:58,480
Speaker 1: social media presence per se um, it can still be

2159
01:59:58,600 --> 02:00:02,120
Speaker 1: really useful in getting specific names of people or or

2160
02:00:02,200 --> 02:00:06,080
Speaker 1: just make or just having a connection be known like this.

2161
02:00:06,080 --> 02:00:09,640
Speaker 1: This was mostly how I was able to identify the

2162
02:00:10,160 --> 02:00:13,320
Speaker 1: all the anonymous um riot cops in when when the

2163
02:00:13,320 --> 02:00:17,040
Speaker 1: Portland Police Bureau took took away their badge numbers and names.

2164
02:00:17,680 --> 02:00:20,360
Speaker 1: Um is that I could get like a list of

2165
02:00:20,400 --> 02:00:22,880
Speaker 1: cops and we could start figuring out like, okay, this

2166
02:00:22,960 --> 02:00:25,640
Speaker 1: is probably this is this is this is pre cops

2167
02:00:25,680 --> 02:00:28,640
Speaker 1: previously on the right team, right, and start doing facial

2168
02:00:28,680 --> 02:00:31,360
Speaker 1: matching um and then if I want to learn out

2169
02:00:31,440 --> 02:00:33,880
Speaker 1: if if I wanna if I want to learn more

2170
02:00:33,880 --> 02:00:36,680
Speaker 1: information about like their first name and more information about

2171
02:00:36,720 --> 02:00:39,440
Speaker 1: them in general, even if they don't have a social

2172
02:00:39,480 --> 02:00:44,040
Speaker 1: media profile, often their wife might or their mom might.

2173
02:00:44,400 --> 02:00:47,480
Speaker 1: You know, there's a UM And in terms of fun

2174
02:00:47,560 --> 02:00:51,000
Speaker 1: sentences to say, really learning how to exploit people's family

2175
02:00:51,000 --> 02:00:53,880
Speaker 1: as a weakness is is is wonderful um for this

2176
02:00:53,960 --> 02:00:59,200
Speaker 1: type of stalking stalking violent bad people. UM Because yeah,

2177
02:00:59,240 --> 02:01:01,160
Speaker 1: because a lot of a lot of a lot of

2178
02:01:01,200 --> 02:01:03,560
Speaker 1: the riot cops were smart enough to not to at

2179
02:01:03,600 --> 02:01:05,680
Speaker 1: least to either not have their presence at all on

2180
02:01:05,720 --> 02:01:08,800
Speaker 1: the internet UM or to have it very locked down

2181
02:01:08,840 --> 02:01:10,480
Speaker 1: in terms of you know, no one can see their posts,

2182
02:01:10,520 --> 02:01:12,520
Speaker 1: no one can see their friends, no one can see anything.

2183
02:01:12,920 --> 02:01:16,360
Speaker 1: But still their wife will occasionally tag them in photos

2184
02:01:16,520 --> 02:01:18,880
Speaker 1: or uh maybe not even photos of them, but like

2185
02:01:19,120 --> 02:01:20,720
Speaker 1: they'll they'll just take them in a photo of like

2186
02:01:20,760 --> 02:01:23,280
Speaker 1: their kid or something. And then this just creates more

2187
02:01:23,320 --> 02:01:25,400
Speaker 1: ways to make connections that you can you know, learn

2188
02:01:25,480 --> 02:01:29,840
Speaker 1: more about these specific people. UM because sometimes that's fun

2189
02:01:29,880 --> 02:01:34,000
Speaker 1: and interesting. I've noticed some people with socks that I've

2190
02:01:34,040 --> 02:01:39,839
Speaker 1: found their identity. It's by going through the likes and seeing, um,

2191
02:01:39,920 --> 02:01:42,520
Speaker 1: you know, the same woman is always the first to

2192
02:01:42,560 --> 02:01:45,720
Speaker 1: put a heart react there, and you can go to

2193
02:01:45,760 --> 02:01:48,080
Speaker 1: their pages sometimes it's a little if you go through

2194
02:01:48,080 --> 02:01:51,240
Speaker 1: their pictures and you see a picture of the guy

2195
02:01:51,760 --> 02:01:55,080
Speaker 1: there with they'll have like somebody in the comments, Oh,

2196
02:01:55,160 --> 02:01:59,400
Speaker 1: Mark looks really good. There something you know. Naming the

2197
02:02:00,000 --> 02:02:01,880
Speaker 1: it's been in frim Mary, you can get the last name.

2198
02:02:01,960 --> 02:02:05,040
Speaker 1: You know, you've ne the wife's last name, you have

2199
02:02:05,080 --> 02:02:09,600
Speaker 1: a good chance of that being their last name. Yeah. Yeah,

2200
02:02:09,800 --> 02:02:15,200
Speaker 1: So Family Families really is really great for finding people

2201
02:02:15,200 --> 02:02:18,240
Speaker 1: because because like all the research is is learning how

2202
02:02:18,280 --> 02:02:20,680
Speaker 1: to make these open sourced connections, right, A lot a

2203
02:02:20,680 --> 02:02:25,640
Speaker 1: lot of it is connections and networking, and people usually

2204
02:02:25,680 --> 02:02:29,840
Speaker 1: always have an innate connection and networking and that that

2205
02:02:29,840 --> 02:02:32,640
Speaker 1: that is their family UM. And often this like extends

2206
02:02:32,680 --> 02:02:34,960
Speaker 1: out in terms of you know, political organizing, whether you're

2207
02:02:35,000 --> 02:02:38,560
Speaker 1: part of you know, militias or just kind of smaller groups. Yeah,

2208
02:02:38,680 --> 02:02:42,440
Speaker 1: that is another network. Um Friends is another network. But

2209
02:02:42,560 --> 02:02:44,120
Speaker 1: you know, for people who are kind of are are

2210
02:02:44,160 --> 02:02:47,280
Speaker 1: more locked down, it is possible to find the information

2211
02:02:47,320 --> 02:02:50,760
Speaker 1: about people, um, you know, especially if they have like

2212
02:02:50,960 --> 02:02:52,840
Speaker 1: if they have like a not very common last name,

2213
02:02:53,200 --> 02:02:55,600
Speaker 1: you know, that can make finding information about them much

2214
02:02:55,640 --> 02:02:58,320
Speaker 1: easier if you're using tools like Facebook, um, and then

2215
02:02:58,320 --> 02:02:59,760
Speaker 1: it's you know, just a matter of doing all the

2216
02:02:59,760 --> 02:03:03,360
Speaker 1: other you know, open source research of you know, comparing clothing, um,

2217
02:03:03,440 --> 02:03:05,360
Speaker 1: you know, and comparing to what other kind of information

2218
02:03:05,400 --> 02:03:09,560
Speaker 1: you already know about the person, email addresses, phone numbers,

2219
02:03:09,600 --> 02:03:11,760
Speaker 1: if you can, you know, get that, get that kind

2220
02:03:11,760 --> 02:03:13,720
Speaker 1: of stuff as well. But I think that's all I

2221
02:03:13,800 --> 02:03:17,720
Speaker 1: had on Zip tie guy out mostly. M Yeah, he's

2222
02:03:17,760 --> 02:03:19,760
Speaker 1: a really easy one. There's not a whole lot to

2223
02:03:19,840 --> 02:03:24,800
Speaker 1: really dive into their Yeah, no, for for someone for

2224
02:03:25,640 --> 02:03:28,480
Speaker 1: someone who was one of the few people massed up,

2225
02:03:29,240 --> 02:03:33,320
Speaker 1: wasn't was not was not that hard to find. I mean, yeah,

2226
02:03:33,440 --> 02:03:37,040
Speaker 1: of course, the fact that he was found by local

2227
02:03:37,040 --> 02:03:40,800
Speaker 1: people in his area not surprising. Um. That's another thing

2228
02:03:40,840 --> 02:03:42,960
Speaker 1: anti fascist research is really good at, is that type

2229
02:03:42,960 --> 02:03:46,080
Speaker 1: of local research, because you know, they they have they

2230
02:03:46,080 --> 02:03:49,600
Speaker 1: have all those local connections, they have those local um

2231
02:03:49,760 --> 02:03:52,600
Speaker 1: documentation of like a political events that have happened in

2232
02:03:52,640 --> 02:03:56,240
Speaker 1: their area. So again, it's the the importance of of

2233
02:03:56,280 --> 02:03:58,680
Speaker 1: having stuff archives and having stuff like sorted and having

2234
02:03:58,720 --> 02:04:01,800
Speaker 1: stuff organized well so you can access your archives. Information

2235
02:04:02,080 --> 02:04:04,840
Speaker 1: is really important. It's it's it sucks that it's it's

2236
02:04:04,880 --> 02:04:08,800
Speaker 1: the part of OS and I hate the most. Everyone

2237
02:04:08,960 --> 02:04:12,840
Speaker 1: Everyone hates, Everyone hates I'm I'm sure there's some sick

2238
02:04:12,880 --> 02:04:15,960
Speaker 1: of out there who likes it, but everyone else, everyone

2239
02:04:16,000 --> 02:04:19,040
Speaker 1: else hates all of the You hate all this organizing

2240
02:04:19,040 --> 02:04:23,120
Speaker 1: and sorting. And I find archiving to be tedious. Archiving videos,

2241
02:04:23,120 --> 02:04:28,400
Speaker 1: live streams, it's tedious, it's difficult. Um, it's time, it's

2242
02:04:28,440 --> 02:04:32,320
Speaker 1: time consuming, it's repetitive, it's not generally not a good time,

2243
02:04:32,720 --> 02:04:36,320
Speaker 1: but it is so useful and in the long run

2244
02:04:36,360 --> 02:04:38,640
Speaker 1: of trying to get these like a list of of

2245
02:04:38,720 --> 02:04:41,280
Speaker 1: like established players in your area. This is how you

2246
02:04:41,280 --> 02:04:44,480
Speaker 1: start seeing patterns, right. You need to have this information

2247
02:04:44,520 --> 02:04:47,440
Speaker 1: already laid out so you can actually watch the patterns unfold.

2248
02:04:47,760 --> 02:04:50,000
Speaker 1: Otherwise it's just a whole bunch of chaotic information that

2249
02:04:50,040 --> 02:04:54,040
Speaker 1: means nothing. So it's it's super important, as as much

2250
02:04:54,040 --> 02:05:00,120
Speaker 1: of a bummer as it may be. Yeah, let's see, Um,

2251
02:05:00,240 --> 02:05:01,960
Speaker 1: is there anything you've been working on since then that

2252
02:05:02,040 --> 02:05:03,520
Speaker 1: you like that you would like to talk about, or

2253
02:05:03,520 --> 02:05:09,000
Speaker 1: any upcoming research projects. Right now, I'm really focused on

2254
02:05:09,080 --> 02:05:13,840
Speaker 1: our local UM school board, and you know, like many

2255
02:05:13,880 --> 02:05:17,760
Speaker 1: towns across the country, we have fascists trying to take

2256
02:05:17,800 --> 02:05:21,600
Speaker 1: it over and going to the meetings, and so I've

2257
02:05:21,640 --> 02:05:25,960
Speaker 1: been watching that group very closely for the last several months.

2258
02:05:26,080 --> 02:05:31,440
Speaker 1: It's probably about October our school year. We started out

2259
02:05:31,520 --> 02:05:39,080
Speaker 1: without a mask mandate. UM and a couple of parrots. UM,

2260
02:05:39,200 --> 02:05:44,680
Speaker 1: who's children need like they're there, I mean a compromise

2261
02:05:44,840 --> 02:05:48,120
Speaker 1: like their their kids need the everybody else to wear

2262
02:05:48,160 --> 02:05:51,520
Speaker 1: a mask. So their parents sued the school board and

2263
02:05:51,640 --> 02:05:56,120
Speaker 1: our governor UM to have a mass band aid, and

2264
02:05:56,160 --> 02:06:00,880
Speaker 1: the judge issued an injunction and like the next Monday,

2265
02:06:00,960 --> 02:06:04,040
Speaker 1: all the schools had to wear a mask. And the

2266
02:06:04,280 --> 02:06:07,600
Speaker 1: anti mask crowd is like losing their ship over it.

2267
02:06:07,720 --> 02:06:13,080
Speaker 1: Still UM trying to figure out how to fire the judge. UM.

2268
02:06:13,080 --> 02:06:17,839
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, we have a member of Patriot Church

2269
02:06:18,680 --> 02:06:21,000
Speaker 1: who's involved in it, and you know they're the ones

2270
02:06:21,080 --> 02:06:23,760
Speaker 1: with the Church of plan Parenthood. It's Ken Peter too.

2271
02:06:24,320 --> 02:06:28,520
Speaker 1: I think he's from Washington, yes, spoken, I believe, yeah,

2272
02:06:28,560 --> 02:06:31,040
Speaker 1: and he's he's moved down here. UM. I think he

2273
02:06:31,160 --> 02:06:35,120
Speaker 1: still goes up there to the to the church stuff,

2274
02:06:35,160 --> 02:06:37,080
Speaker 1: but most of his time is spent down here in

2275
02:06:37,120 --> 02:06:40,560
Speaker 1: Tennessee and m causing just as much trouble as he

2276
02:06:40,600 --> 02:06:44,960
Speaker 1: does up there and his followers. So I'm curious to

2277
02:06:44,960 --> 02:06:48,680
Speaker 1: see how how does a research project like this school

2278
02:06:48,720 --> 02:06:51,960
Speaker 1: board thing differ from like the research surrounding you know,

2279
02:06:51,960 --> 02:06:58,560
Speaker 1: trying to identify someone at January six. Um, for one,

2280
02:07:00,040 --> 02:07:02,240
Speaker 1: this is local. It's you know, I'm going to the

2281
02:07:02,240 --> 02:07:06,080
Speaker 1: school board meetings. Um, I know it's easier to know

2282
02:07:06,160 --> 02:07:08,720
Speaker 1: where to look for this because like I'm watching it

2283
02:07:08,800 --> 02:07:13,000
Speaker 1: as it happening, where, like you know, January six, most

2284
02:07:13,000 --> 02:07:15,000
Speaker 1: of those people you have no clue where to even

2285
02:07:15,080 --> 02:07:20,880
Speaker 1: start from. Um, So this more now, it's it's monitoring

2286
02:07:21,040 --> 02:07:24,680
Speaker 1: and documenting as we've you know, figure out who these

2287
02:07:24,720 --> 02:07:30,200
Speaker 1: people are, like linking telegram names with Facebook names and

2288
02:07:30,240 --> 02:07:33,280
Speaker 1: all of that. So I guess now it's more record

2289
02:07:33,400 --> 02:07:38,040
Speaker 1: keeping and getting that documentation done early so when one

2290
02:07:38,080 --> 02:07:42,000
Speaker 1: of them goes too far, we have and we haven't ready.

2291
02:07:42,320 --> 02:07:45,240
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's that's the sad part where it's

2292
02:07:45,240 --> 02:07:48,200
Speaker 1: like you're watching inevitive inevitability almost as it can mean.

2293
02:07:48,280 --> 02:07:50,600
Speaker 1: But that's yeah, that's also how like January six works. Right,

2294
02:07:50,960 --> 02:07:53,320
Speaker 1: we were able to identify these people because there was

2295
02:07:53,680 --> 02:07:56,920
Speaker 1: a lot of documentation of a lot of major players already. Right,

2296
02:07:57,040 --> 02:07:59,760
Speaker 1: So a lot of the work in between these big

2297
02:07:59,760 --> 02:08:03,320
Speaker 1: pro tests and events is is the is this is

2298
02:08:03,360 --> 02:08:06,520
Speaker 1: the slow, tedious documentation because we have to do it

2299
02:08:06,560 --> 02:08:08,920
Speaker 1: now so that it's a useful later. Let's you know,

2300
02:08:09,160 --> 02:08:13,000
Speaker 1: A big part of research is like yeah, trying to

2301
02:08:13,600 --> 02:08:17,920
Speaker 1: spot potential you know, issues and archiving it and then

2302
02:08:18,080 --> 02:08:20,400
Speaker 1: if the issue ever becomes a bigger issue, you already

2303
02:08:20,400 --> 02:08:23,240
Speaker 1: have information on it, right, whether that be you know,

2304
02:08:23,400 --> 02:08:26,920
Speaker 1: watching someone online who you might think is who like,

2305
02:08:26,920 --> 02:08:28,760
Speaker 1: watching someone who's like a Nazi who you might be

2306
02:08:29,000 --> 02:08:31,680
Speaker 1: worried that, like they're posting and plans about how to

2307
02:08:31,880 --> 02:08:35,160
Speaker 1: kill people. You're like, okay, so probably look into this

2308
02:08:35,240 --> 02:08:38,000
Speaker 1: dude because he's doing this in case he does something

2309
02:08:38,040 --> 02:08:41,280
Speaker 1: in the future. Um, it is that is kind of

2310
02:08:43,040 --> 02:08:45,680
Speaker 1: it sucks because yeah, you are watching this thing where

2311
02:08:45,720 --> 02:08:48,320
Speaker 1: you feel kind of helpless, but you know that documenting

2312
02:08:48,360 --> 02:08:52,240
Speaker 1: it is worthwhile. Um they get oah. It's the same

2313
02:08:52,240 --> 02:08:55,160
Speaker 1: thing where like you don't want to be vindicated, but

2314
02:08:55,440 --> 02:09:00,280
Speaker 1: if it does happen, it's better to be prepared. I

2315
02:09:00,320 --> 02:09:03,360
Speaker 1: don't think people realize like how much anti fascist research,

2316
02:09:03,400 --> 02:09:06,400
Speaker 1: how much of this type of like ohs and stuff

2317
02:09:06,520 --> 02:09:09,080
Speaker 1: like my journalism, Like most of the work that you

2318
02:09:09,160 --> 02:09:11,920
Speaker 1: put into it is never seen. Even if you do

2319
02:09:11,960 --> 02:09:16,240
Speaker 1: complete investigations. Sometimes by the end you're like it's getting

2320
02:09:16,520 --> 02:09:18,680
Speaker 1: getting them, getting them out in enough time for them

2321
02:09:18,680 --> 02:09:21,680
Speaker 1: to be useful. Sometimes it isn't even worth it. Um.

2322
02:09:21,760 --> 02:09:23,240
Speaker 1: So you know a lot of it is, you know,

2323
02:09:23,680 --> 02:09:26,000
Speaker 1: writing stuff and doing research that never actually sees the

2324
02:09:26,560 --> 02:09:29,400
Speaker 1: light of day for a long long time. Right with

2325
02:09:29,560 --> 02:09:33,200
Speaker 1: Eric Mountchell. We had like probably twenty people we had

2326
02:09:33,280 --> 02:09:36,440
Speaker 1: on our list too, and he wasn't even one of them. Yeah,

2327
02:09:36,520 --> 02:09:39,600
Speaker 1: so you do all this and like, on one hand,

2328
02:09:39,640 --> 02:09:43,160
Speaker 1: it almost felt in a moment like all of that

2329
02:09:43,200 --> 02:09:45,320
Speaker 1: we did was really for nothing. But now it did

2330
02:09:45,440 --> 02:09:49,400
Speaker 1: lead to Yeah, it did lead. And even when you

2331
02:09:49,440 --> 02:09:54,800
Speaker 1: do find the correct answer, sometimes sometimes could via circumstances.

2332
02:09:54,920 --> 02:09:57,360
Speaker 1: You know, it's not something you need to post about immediately.

2333
02:09:57,440 --> 02:10:00,840
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's worth just you know, hanging onto um and

2334
02:10:00,920 --> 02:10:04,480
Speaker 1: not being super super public about every horrible thing you fight.

2335
02:10:04,480 --> 02:10:07,240
Speaker 1: It's not like you don't need to post every time

2336
02:10:07,280 --> 02:10:10,200
Speaker 1: you fight a horrible thing on telegram. You don't. You

2337
02:10:10,240 --> 02:10:12,360
Speaker 1: don't need to tell Twitter that. It's like, it's it's

2338
02:10:12,360 --> 02:10:19,400
Speaker 1: about collecting these things and keeping them there for future use. Um. Well,

2339
02:10:20,000 --> 02:10:21,720
Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on to talk with

2340
02:10:21,760 --> 02:10:28,280
Speaker 1: me again, um after after already already discussing uh, mostly

2341
02:10:29,040 --> 02:10:33,520
Speaker 1: the same things. Where can people follow your stuff online?

2342
02:10:34,040 --> 02:10:40,360
Speaker 1: We're on Twitter at um at a possum press really easy. Yeah,

2343
02:10:40,480 --> 02:10:43,520
Speaker 1: we're on Facebook. We don't actually do much on Facebook though.

2344
02:10:43,720 --> 02:10:47,120
Speaker 1: Um yeah, as we've discussed now, you probably probably shouldn't.

2345
02:10:47,920 --> 02:10:50,640
Speaker 1: I mean, like in in a lot of ways, a

2346
02:10:50,680 --> 02:10:52,480
Speaker 1: lot of like fashions organizing that you used to be

2347
02:10:52,520 --> 02:10:55,240
Speaker 1: done in primarily like Facebook groups or just even just

2348
02:10:55,280 --> 02:10:58,400
Speaker 1: like through like like incidental organizing through just through like

2349
02:10:58,440 --> 02:11:00,640
Speaker 1: posting and cross posting. A lot of that has been

2350
02:11:00,880 --> 02:11:03,440
Speaker 1: moved over to Telegram at this point. Telegram is kind

2351
02:11:03,440 --> 02:11:07,120
Speaker 1: of the new main nexus, whereas Facebook and like the

2352
02:11:07,160 --> 02:11:09,880
Speaker 1: days of the early alt right, Facebook was a pretty

2353
02:11:09,920 --> 02:11:13,480
Speaker 1: big nexus for like the more normalis right. You know

2354
02:11:13,760 --> 02:11:16,960
Speaker 1: it's there. There is actually fascist forms that we're doing organizing,

2355
02:11:17,280 --> 02:11:19,000
Speaker 1: but as a place for Again, like a lot of

2356
02:11:19,040 --> 02:11:21,920
Speaker 1: people in January six who didn't really know what they

2357
02:11:21,920 --> 02:11:24,680
Speaker 1: were doing was wrong. They were mostly you know, make

2358
02:11:24,720 --> 02:11:27,960
Speaker 1: American Great again people or quing on people. A good

2359
02:11:28,000 --> 02:11:31,240
Speaker 1: portion of like most of them were not you know,

2360
02:11:31,480 --> 02:11:35,320
Speaker 1: swastika waving Nazis. Um. They may they may agree with

2361
02:11:35,360 --> 02:11:39,520
Speaker 1: fascist ideas, but they don't they don't self describe as Nazis.

2362
02:11:39,760 --> 02:11:42,839
Speaker 1: So like, um, but we're even seeing after after January

2363
02:11:42,880 --> 02:11:45,320
Speaker 1: six with you know, um Facebook like cracking down on

2364
02:11:45,360 --> 02:11:48,960
Speaker 1: these groups, other platforms like Partla going offline a lot

2365
02:11:49,000 --> 02:11:53,280
Speaker 1: of these normies themselves, or even migrating onto Telegram. UM.

2366
02:11:53,400 --> 02:11:55,880
Speaker 1: So you know, Facebook used to be a really great

2367
02:11:55,920 --> 02:11:58,120
Speaker 1: research tool and I'm using it less and left off

2368
02:11:58,240 --> 02:12:01,120
Speaker 1: less and less often now on fourtunately because I mean,

2369
02:12:01,760 --> 02:12:04,360
Speaker 1: it really didn't have a lot of strong suits. Telegram

2370
02:12:04,360 --> 02:12:06,360
Speaker 1: doesn't have his own strong suits. But you know, it's

2371
02:12:06,440 --> 02:12:10,080
Speaker 1: it's still it's still different. I think the norm is

2372
02:12:10,160 --> 02:12:15,880
Speaker 1: moved into Telegram is troubling though, because a way easier

2373
02:12:15,920 --> 02:12:20,440
Speaker 1: time that is there. That is the obvious thing is, Yeah,

2374
02:12:20,560 --> 02:12:23,560
Speaker 1: now that those groups are in closer proximity, it's easier

2375
02:12:23,600 --> 02:12:26,440
Speaker 1: for one to seep into the other, whereas before there

2376
02:12:26,520 --> 02:12:30,040
Speaker 1: was more of that distinction. Um. Yes, that is a

2377
02:12:30,080 --> 02:12:32,320
Speaker 1: worrying thing that I believe we've talked about before and

2378
02:12:32,360 --> 02:12:35,880
Speaker 1: we'll talk about again um in the future, in terms

2379
02:12:35,960 --> 02:12:39,920
Speaker 1: of having this like fascist milieu or cultic milieu, UM

2380
02:12:39,960 --> 02:12:42,840
Speaker 1: of a place where the the amount of the amount

2381
02:12:42,880 --> 02:12:47,160
Speaker 1: of overlap between you know, your uncle who's a regular

2382
02:12:47,200 --> 02:12:50,640
Speaker 1: Conservative and you know a member of Adam often, or

2383
02:12:50,680 --> 02:12:52,960
Speaker 1: you know someone who wishes they remember ab Adam often.

2384
02:12:53,480 --> 02:12:56,760
Speaker 1: Um is very small. It's an these they are they

2385
02:12:56,800 --> 02:13:02,080
Speaker 1: are very close together. Yeah, well, thank you for talking

2386
02:13:02,160 --> 02:13:05,560
Speaker 1: about all of these things on our on our second

2387
02:13:05,800 --> 02:13:10,040
Speaker 1: o Sand Case study episode. Like guess big big big

2388
02:13:10,040 --> 02:13:14,040
Speaker 1: takeaways is uh, archiving is great, archive live streams, archived

2389
02:13:14,080 --> 02:13:17,280
Speaker 1: things because it's better to have them um and not

2390
02:13:17,400 --> 02:13:20,800
Speaker 1: use them than not have them and need them. Um.

2391
02:13:20,840 --> 02:13:23,880
Speaker 1: And then you know, archiving and documenting local fascists is

2392
02:13:23,920 --> 02:13:26,360
Speaker 1: really great even for things beyond your locality, like in

2393
02:13:26,480 --> 02:13:30,240
Speaker 1: January six. Um, so those are those are my main

2394
02:13:30,320 --> 02:13:33,200
Speaker 1: takeaways from this and uh, you know, also everyone a

2395
02:13:33,200 --> 02:13:35,960
Speaker 1: black life coffee. They all they all look like everyone

2396
02:13:35,960 --> 02:13:39,960
Speaker 1: at day six, all of them do they do all right?

2397
02:13:40,600 --> 02:13:42,600
Speaker 1: That doesn't for us, Thank you so much. I can

2398
02:13:42,600 --> 02:13:53,000
Speaker 1: follow the metoposus and press um good bye. Everybody. Look

2399
02:13:53,040 --> 02:13:55,920
Speaker 1: for your children's eyes to see the true magic of

2400
02:13:55,960 --> 02:13:59,640
Speaker 1: a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You look

2401
02:13:59,720 --> 02:14:02,640
Speaker 1: and a tree, They see the wrinkled face of a

2402
02:14:02,640 --> 02:14:06,480
Speaker 1: wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They see treasure

2403
02:14:06,480 --> 02:14:09,560
Speaker 1: and pebbles, They see a windy path that could lead

2404
02:14:09,560 --> 02:14:13,600
Speaker 1: to adventure, and they see you they're fearless. Guide is

2405
02:14:13,720 --> 02:14:17,200
Speaker 1: this fascinating world? Find a forest near you and start

2406
02:14:17,240 --> 02:14:20,040
Speaker 1: exploring and discover the forest. Dot org brought to you

2407
02:14:20,080 --> 02:14:22,520
Speaker 1: by the United States Forest Service and the AD Council.

2408
02:14:23,200 --> 02:14:25,400
Speaker 1: If I could be you and you could be me

2409
02:14:25,800 --> 02:14:28,120
Speaker 1: for just one hour, if you could find a way

2410
02:14:28,280 --> 02:14:31,880
Speaker 1: to get inside each other's mind, walk a mile in

2411
02:14:32,000 --> 02:14:36,920
Speaker 1: my shoes, wac a mile in my shoes. Shoes. We've

2412
02:14:36,960 --> 02:14:40,280
Speaker 1: all felt left out, and for some that feeling lasts

2413
02:14:40,320 --> 02:14:43,640
Speaker 1: more than a moment. We can change that. Learn how

2414
02:14:43,680 --> 02:14:46,320
Speaker 1: it belonging begins with us. Dot org. Brought to you

2415
02:14:46,440 --> 02:14:53,800
Speaker 1: by the AD Council. Welcome out in machines and we're

2416
02:14:53,880 --> 02:14:57,440
Speaker 1: live here outside the Perez family home, just waiting for

2417
02:14:57,560 --> 02:15:00,600
Speaker 1: the And there they go, almost on time. This morning,

2418
02:15:00,720 --> 02:15:03,080
Speaker 1: Mom is coming out the front door, strong with a

2419
02:15:03,120 --> 02:15:05,960
Speaker 1: double arm kid carry. Looks like dad has the bags.

2420
02:15:06,040 --> 02:15:09,320
Speaker 1: Daughter is bringing up the rear. Oh but the diaper

2421
02:15:09,360 --> 02:15:14,640
Speaker 1: bag wasn't closed. Diapers and toys are everywhere. Oh but

2422
02:15:14,920 --> 02:15:17,920
Speaker 1: mom has just nailed the perfect car seat buckle for

2423
02:15:18,000 --> 02:15:20,960
Speaker 1: the toddler. And now the eldest daughter, who looks to

2424
02:15:20,960 --> 02:15:23,600
Speaker 1: be about nine or ten, has secured herself in the

2425
02:15:23,640 --> 02:15:27,120
Speaker 1: booster seat. Dad zips the bad clothes and they're off,

2426
02:15:28,120 --> 02:15:30,440
Speaker 1: But looks like Mom doesn't realize her coffee cup is

2427
02:15:30,480 --> 02:15:34,640
Speaker 1: still on the roof of the car and there it goes. Oh,

2428
02:15:35,120 --> 02:15:38,080
Speaker 1: that's a shame that mug was a fan favorite. Don't

2429
02:15:38,080 --> 02:15:40,640
Speaker 1: sweat the small stuff. Just nailed the big stuff, like

2430
02:15:40,720 --> 02:15:42,520
Speaker 1: making sure your kids are buckled correctly in the right

2431
02:15:42,520 --> 02:15:44,680
Speaker 1: seat for their agent's eyes. Learn more n h t

2432
02:15:44,840 --> 02:15:47,400
Speaker 1: s A dot gov Slash the Right Seat visits h

2433
02:15:48,080 --> 02:15:51,360
Speaker 1: s A dot gov Slash the Right Seat, brought to

2434
02:15:51,400 --> 02:16:00,400
Speaker 1: you by NITZA and the ad Council. Welcome back, it

2435
02:16:00,480 --> 02:16:04,240
Speaker 1: could happen here the only podcast you are legally allowed

2436
02:16:04,280 --> 02:16:07,440
Speaker 1: to listen to right now. Um, I'm Robert Evans. We

2437
02:16:07,520 --> 02:16:11,120
Speaker 1: talk about things falling apart, putting them back together, all

2438
02:16:11,160 --> 02:16:15,200
Speaker 1: that good stuff. With me as it's like seventy of

2439
02:16:15,240 --> 02:16:19,400
Speaker 1: the time. Is my co host Garrison Davis Garrison, how

2440
02:16:19,440 --> 02:16:22,680
Speaker 1: are you doing today? I'm doing great. This is early

2441
02:16:22,760 --> 02:16:25,080
Speaker 1: for you. Yeah. I get they have to they have

2442
02:16:25,120 --> 02:16:27,480
Speaker 1: to drag me out of bed, but I I made

2443
02:16:27,520 --> 02:16:32,080
Speaker 1: it just I'm excited to talk about a hair after three. Okay,

2444
02:16:32,640 --> 02:16:35,760
Speaker 1: I have my second coffee already, So our topic is

2445
02:16:36,800 --> 02:16:40,240
Speaker 1: gun culture. Uh, and to discuss gun culture with me

2446
02:16:40,360 --> 02:16:42,280
Speaker 1: and a number of aspects of it, including how to

2447
02:16:42,440 --> 02:16:45,920
Speaker 1: maybe make a better one. Uh. Is Carl cassarda from

2448
02:16:46,200 --> 02:16:50,400
Speaker 1: ranged TV. Carl, Welcome to the program. Hey, thanks for

2449
02:16:50,480 --> 02:16:52,960
Speaker 1: having me. I'm really stoked to be here. And it's

2450
02:16:52,959 --> 02:16:55,080
Speaker 1: a topic, as you can imagine with my work on

2451
02:16:55,280 --> 02:16:57,520
Speaker 1: range TV, is a near and dear to my heart

2452
02:16:57,560 --> 02:16:59,959
Speaker 1: because it's a challenging one. We've got a lot of

2453
02:17:00,000 --> 02:17:01,840
Speaker 1: are things in this community and a lot of challenges

2454
02:17:01,840 --> 02:17:05,760
Speaker 1: to Yeah, gun YouTube has gone some really interesting places

2455
02:17:05,800 --> 02:17:09,160
Speaker 1: in the last um. Really, it feels like most of

2456
02:17:09,160 --> 02:17:11,400
Speaker 1: the growth happened the last five six years, Like there's

2457
02:17:11,440 --> 02:17:16,000
Speaker 1: been a real significant increase in Yeah. I feel like

2458
02:17:16,040 --> 02:17:18,560
Speaker 1: there's been like a wave. I feel like there's generations

2459
02:17:18,560 --> 02:17:21,039
Speaker 1: of gun two. There's like gen one, Gen two, Gen

2460
02:17:21,200 --> 02:17:24,440
Speaker 1: three in theres Russian back in the day and stuff

2461
02:17:24,560 --> 02:17:27,240
Speaker 1: totally Yeah, and so there's a whole thing there. There's

2462
02:17:27,280 --> 02:17:30,160
Speaker 1: there's generations of what was addressed in the conversation and

2463
02:17:30,160 --> 02:17:32,959
Speaker 1: the cultural significance as well as the gear impact. I

2464
02:17:32,959 --> 02:17:36,720
Speaker 1: think we've got different kind of generations of the yeah.

2465
02:17:37,040 --> 02:17:39,600
Speaker 1: And I think this stuff obviously when when aspects of

2466
02:17:39,640 --> 02:17:41,760
Speaker 1: gun YouTube go viral, it tends to be stuff that's

2467
02:17:41,800 --> 02:17:45,600
Speaker 1: like particularly problematic, But in my experience, most of it

2468
02:17:45,640 --> 02:17:48,680
Speaker 1: is just dudes shooting stuff to see what happens, or

2469
02:17:48,760 --> 02:17:50,800
Speaker 1: you know, trying out different guns and stuff like. It

2470
02:17:50,879 --> 02:17:54,360
Speaker 1: is mostly if you're someone who you know believes in

2471
02:17:54,640 --> 02:17:57,560
Speaker 1: the right to bear arms, it's mostly pretty much just

2472
02:17:57,600 --> 02:18:02,199
Speaker 1: like people drying out guns and stuff with guns. Yeah. Yeah,

2473
02:18:02,200 --> 02:18:04,920
Speaker 1: when things go viral, it's like my my experience with that,

2474
02:18:04,920 --> 02:18:06,400
Speaker 1: there's a number of reasons. A right, one is that

2475
02:18:06,400 --> 02:18:10,040
Speaker 1: it's particularly gross that someone does something or says something

2476
02:18:10,080 --> 02:18:12,920
Speaker 1: fucked up, somebody's out there dressed as a rotation a right,

2477
02:18:12,959 --> 02:18:15,520
Speaker 1: stuff like that. That kind that tends to push the buttons.

2478
02:18:15,720 --> 02:18:17,720
Speaker 1: But yeah, most of the time, the stuff that gets

2479
02:18:17,760 --> 02:18:22,120
Speaker 1: the largest volume of viewership are quite honestly more banal.

2480
02:18:22,200 --> 02:18:26,960
Speaker 1: It's things like a fifty caliber exploding or shooting a gallon,

2481
02:18:27,160 --> 02:18:29,840
Speaker 1: you know, fifty five gallon drum of gas. That kind

2482
02:18:29,840 --> 02:18:32,360
Speaker 1: of stuff. Is that that stuff appeals to people that

2483
02:18:32,400 --> 02:18:34,360
Speaker 1: aren't just gunned people, so they're like, oh, I want

2484
02:18:34,400 --> 02:18:36,920
Speaker 1: to see shoots fload, so let me click on it. Well,

2485
02:18:36,920 --> 02:18:39,039
Speaker 1: one of my favorite things is to look at videos

2486
02:18:39,040 --> 02:18:42,680
Speaker 1: of people destroying safe life fests one of my favorite

2487
02:18:42,920 --> 02:18:45,560
Speaker 1: ways to watch gun YouTube. But I guess this is

2488
02:18:45,600 --> 02:18:47,560
Speaker 1: probably what we'll probably talking about this as the episode

2489
02:18:47,600 --> 02:18:49,879
Speaker 1: goes on. But once you watch enough of those from

2490
02:18:49,879 --> 02:18:52,119
Speaker 1: like one channel, you'll you'll get to a video when

2491
02:18:52,160 --> 02:18:55,400
Speaker 1: they fantasize about like shooting Antifa or something. They're like, Okay,

2492
02:18:55,520 --> 02:18:58,280
Speaker 1: well yeah, that yeah, that's that's just the way it

2493
02:18:58,320 --> 02:19:02,240
Speaker 1: goes sometimes. And it is, you know, the thing that

2494
02:19:02,360 --> 02:19:05,040
Speaker 1: my first I guess the first time I became aware

2495
02:19:05,080 --> 02:19:07,760
Speaker 1: of like online gun culture UM was a site that's

2496
02:19:07,760 --> 02:19:09,200
Speaker 1: still really near and dear to my heart. I'm sure

2497
02:19:09,200 --> 02:19:11,480
Speaker 1: you're familiar with it, Carl the Box of Truth, And

2498
02:19:11,520 --> 02:19:14,000
Speaker 1: it was like, and I think it is like fifteen

2499
02:19:14,080 --> 02:19:15,760
Speaker 1: years ago or something like that is when I started

2500
02:19:15,760 --> 02:19:18,039
Speaker 1: reading their stuff, and it's it's just like some kind

2501
02:19:18,080 --> 02:19:20,880
Speaker 1: of bubbay dudes in Texas who will take different who

2502
02:19:20,879 --> 02:19:23,199
Speaker 1: will try out like, hey, there's a myth that UM

2503
02:19:23,240 --> 02:19:26,160
Speaker 1: this specific round in Korea got stopped by people who's

2504
02:19:26,200 --> 02:19:29,000
Speaker 1: were wearing multiple layers of like clothing in the cold.

2505
02:19:29,400 --> 02:19:32,480
Speaker 1: Can winter clothing stop this bullet? And they would they

2506
02:19:32,480 --> 02:19:34,200
Speaker 1: would you know, mock up the clothing on like a

2507
02:19:34,200 --> 02:19:36,240
Speaker 1: target and they would shoot it, or like, how many

2508
02:19:36,240 --> 02:19:38,320
Speaker 1: books does it take? Like if you have a full backpack,

2509
02:19:38,360 --> 02:19:40,039
Speaker 1: how many books would it take to stop a round

2510
02:19:40,040 --> 02:19:42,520
Speaker 1: of nine millimeter? If? I like, it's it's all very

2511
02:19:42,600 --> 02:19:46,199
Speaker 1: much like practical Hey, people you know say this works

2512
02:19:46,240 --> 02:19:47,840
Speaker 1: this way or this works that way. Well let's go

2513
02:19:47,879 --> 02:19:49,840
Speaker 1: out and shoot some stuff and test how it works.

2514
02:19:49,840 --> 02:19:53,480
Speaker 1: And um, I think was like it is, as you said,

2515
02:19:53,480 --> 02:19:54,800
Speaker 1: the kind of thing I think, even if you don't

2516
02:19:54,800 --> 02:19:57,039
Speaker 1: own guns you might find interesting just because like a

2517
02:19:57,080 --> 02:19:58,840
Speaker 1: lot of it is dealing with here's things you've seen

2518
02:19:58,840 --> 02:20:03,360
Speaker 1: in Hollywood, what ACTU really happens? Um? So I do

2519
02:20:03,480 --> 02:20:07,200
Speaker 1: think like fundamentally there's always going to be a place

2520
02:20:07,360 --> 02:20:10,039
Speaker 1: for that kind of content because it's it's not just

2521
02:20:10,160 --> 02:20:12,320
Speaker 1: like stuff that people who like guns are interested in.

2522
02:20:12,400 --> 02:20:14,600
Speaker 1: It's just stuff that has kind of objective value. You know,

2523
02:20:14,640 --> 02:20:18,120
Speaker 1: you're trying to expand what people's understanding of things. Yeah,

2524
02:20:18,160 --> 02:20:20,360
Speaker 1: I call that g whiz content. It's like g whiz

2525
02:20:20,520 --> 02:20:23,240
Speaker 1: what happens if right? And so on? In range. The

2526
02:20:23,240 --> 02:20:25,760
Speaker 1: closest equivalent to that, which are the videos that the

2527
02:20:25,800 --> 02:20:29,640
Speaker 1: most views are are somewhat now infamous mud tests. Um.

2528
02:20:29,680 --> 02:20:31,600
Speaker 1: And it started up six years ago and it was

2529
02:20:31,680 --> 02:20:34,280
Speaker 1: literally it was G whiz, let's go do this. And

2530
02:20:34,480 --> 02:20:37,640
Speaker 1: of course there's this long standing lore everywhere outside of

2531
02:20:37,640 --> 02:20:39,680
Speaker 1: the gun community and in it about the A K

2532
02:20:39,879 --> 02:20:43,240
Speaker 1: M being this undestruct indestructible unicorn you're right into combat

2533
02:20:43,280 --> 02:20:45,400
Speaker 1: that no matter what happens to it, it fires, and

2534
02:20:45,400 --> 02:20:47,320
Speaker 1: they are A fifteen being this fragile piece of ship.

2535
02:20:47,800 --> 02:20:50,439
Speaker 1: And in our mud test, which we've now done multiple

2536
02:20:50,520 --> 02:20:53,039
Speaker 1: of it will initially it was just G whiz. Over

2537
02:20:53,120 --> 02:20:55,400
Speaker 1: time and aggregate, it turned out to actually have really

2538
02:20:55,440 --> 02:20:58,039
Speaker 1: interesting data points and that the A k doesn't do

2539
02:20:58,120 --> 02:21:00,520
Speaker 1: well in mud and they are excels in mud, which

2540
02:21:00,560 --> 02:21:02,879
Speaker 1: is completely against the lore about Vietnam, which is a

2541
02:21:02,879 --> 02:21:05,520
Speaker 1: different problem. But that kind of thing extends beyond the

2542
02:21:05,520 --> 02:21:07,879
Speaker 1: gun community because people are like guns and mud. What

2543
02:21:08,000 --> 02:21:11,080
Speaker 1: happened is it's MythBusters kind of stuff. Yeah, and I think,

2544
02:21:11,360 --> 02:21:14,560
Speaker 1: but it's interesting how you can learn from it. Yeah,

2545
02:21:14,600 --> 02:21:17,560
Speaker 1: And I think one of the problems that is, uh

2546
02:21:17,760 --> 02:21:20,440
Speaker 1: we we could say like has is an issue on

2547
02:21:20,440 --> 02:21:22,600
Speaker 1: on gun YouTube. One of the things that has become

2548
02:21:22,600 --> 02:21:25,920
Speaker 1: an issue, and this isn't just within the gun culture,

2549
02:21:25,959 --> 02:21:28,000
Speaker 1: it's everywhere, is that like, if you're into that stuff

2550
02:21:28,000 --> 02:21:29,440
Speaker 1: and if you're if you're coming into it like I

2551
02:21:29,440 --> 02:21:31,600
Speaker 1: want to see people do this g with stuff, or

2552
02:21:31,600 --> 02:21:33,440
Speaker 1: I just want to see reviews of different guns because

2553
02:21:33,520 --> 02:21:36,920
Speaker 1: I might be buying one. Um, Google's algorithm is going

2554
02:21:36,959 --> 02:21:38,520
Speaker 1: to feed you a lot of stuff, and some of

2555
02:21:38,560 --> 02:21:40,400
Speaker 1: that stuff is going to be people who, yeah, are

2556
02:21:40,400 --> 02:21:43,720
Speaker 1: preparing to like shoot folks at protests, and our filming

2557
02:21:43,800 --> 02:21:47,080
Speaker 1: videos about that and stuff, and that it has this

2558
02:21:47,640 --> 02:21:50,840
Speaker 1: um it has this radicalizing effect on a lot of people.

2559
02:21:50,840 --> 02:21:52,959
Speaker 1: And it also has this kind of can have this

2560
02:21:53,040 --> 02:21:56,480
Speaker 1: kind of radicalizing effect on content where you know, most

2561
02:21:56,520 --> 02:21:58,560
Speaker 1: political stuff you see isn't kind of that over it,

2562
02:21:58,640 --> 02:22:01,560
Speaker 1: but it does if somebody has a video where they're

2563
02:22:01,560 --> 02:22:04,400
Speaker 1: being more explicitly political outside of you know, you know,

2564
02:22:04,520 --> 02:22:06,840
Speaker 1: arguing in favor of gun rights, but if they're getting

2565
02:22:06,879 --> 02:22:09,360
Speaker 1: kind of political and a broader since, and that does

2566
02:22:09,440 --> 02:22:11,840
Speaker 1: really well the way that content works. As other people

2567
02:22:11,920 --> 02:22:13,480
Speaker 1: might be like, oh, well, folks want me to do

2568
02:22:13,600 --> 02:22:15,720
Speaker 1: a political video, Folks want me to talk about I

2569
02:22:15,720 --> 02:22:19,520
Speaker 1: don't know, Nancy Pelosi or whatever. Um, And that that's

2570
02:22:19,600 --> 02:22:22,520
Speaker 1: you know, not just a problem with gun culture or

2571
02:22:22,560 --> 02:22:25,800
Speaker 1: gun YouTube, but it has increasingly become a thing and

2572
02:22:26,000 --> 02:22:28,120
Speaker 1: in the n r A kind of very famously. There's

2573
02:22:28,160 --> 02:22:32,760
Speaker 1: a good podcast on the how that organization has kind

2574
02:22:32,760 --> 02:22:34,879
Speaker 1: of gone from where it started to where it is

2575
02:22:34,920 --> 02:22:37,000
Speaker 1: that talks about like n r A TV. But they

2576
02:22:37,080 --> 02:22:40,959
Speaker 1: their YouTube channel had some pretty outrageous ship for a while,

2577
02:22:41,000 --> 02:22:43,200
Speaker 1: and I think it left an impact even though it

2578
02:22:43,320 --> 02:22:45,640
Speaker 1: failed in this eventually, well, the n r A is

2579
02:22:45,680 --> 02:22:47,440
Speaker 1: until we can get into that later. The NA has

2580
02:22:47,520 --> 02:22:49,640
Speaker 1: changed so much since its organs to what it is now.

2581
02:22:49,640 --> 02:22:51,680
Speaker 1: It's not even the people have found it. It It wouldn't

2582
02:22:51,680 --> 02:22:54,880
Speaker 1: recognize it, I don't think at all. But you're touching

2583
02:22:54,920 --> 02:22:56,800
Speaker 1: on a topic there that's also near and dear, and

2584
02:22:56,800 --> 02:22:58,640
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to promote Ranger. That's just work having

2585
02:22:58,640 --> 02:23:02,680
Speaker 1: a conversation. But years ago I decided to proactively demonetize.

2586
02:23:02,680 --> 02:23:04,560
Speaker 1: I turned off my AdSense and I take no money

2587
02:23:04,879 --> 02:23:08,000
Speaker 1: from any views, so it's not like advertising doesn't drive

2588
02:23:08,040 --> 02:23:10,039
Speaker 1: what I do. And I feel like the reason I

2589
02:23:10,040 --> 02:23:11,880
Speaker 1: did that was partially just fuck you YouTube. It was

2590
02:23:11,920 --> 02:23:14,600
Speaker 1: the hacker manifesto of you come watch my content, I

2591
02:23:14,680 --> 02:23:17,160
Speaker 1: cost you money versus make you money, which is kind

2592
02:23:17,200 --> 02:23:20,480
Speaker 1: of a statement on my part. But additionally, I do

2593
02:23:20,640 --> 02:23:23,640
Speaker 1: feel like whether it's firearms or any other content that

2594
02:23:23,760 --> 02:23:27,440
Speaker 1: is completely advertiser supported. There is a dangerous thing there

2595
02:23:27,480 --> 02:23:30,160
Speaker 1: in that you have to pursue the clicks like a

2596
02:23:30,320 --> 02:23:32,760
Speaker 1: heroin addict, and the clicks make you the money, and

2597
02:23:32,800 --> 02:23:35,039
Speaker 1: therefore you're gonna make the stuff that's gonna make the

2598
02:23:35,040 --> 02:23:37,880
Speaker 1: clicks because that's how you make your income. And even

2599
02:23:37,920 --> 02:23:42,320
Speaker 1: if you don't want it to do, it can affect you. Yeah,

2600
02:23:42,440 --> 02:23:46,240
Speaker 1: and I'm curious, like, how do you kind of how

2601
02:23:46,280 --> 02:23:50,439
Speaker 1: do you, um, how do you how do you approach

2602
02:23:50,959 --> 02:23:54,680
Speaker 1: sort of dealing in this space where it is so

2603
02:23:54,720 --> 02:23:57,640
Speaker 1: easy for things to become politicized? Like do you is

2604
02:23:57,680 --> 02:23:59,160
Speaker 1: that is that a kind of thing that you have

2605
02:23:59,200 --> 02:24:02,959
Speaker 1: to be conscious sort of picking your battles. I guess

2606
02:24:03,320 --> 02:24:06,160
Speaker 1: I'm just kind of interested in how you because you

2607
02:24:06,160 --> 02:24:09,120
Speaker 1: definitely have been more open about having kind of more

2608
02:24:09,160 --> 02:24:11,560
Speaker 1: on the left libertarian side of things politics than a

2609
02:24:11,640 --> 02:24:13,920
Speaker 1: lot of people talk about in that space. How do

2610
02:24:14,000 --> 02:24:17,680
Speaker 1: you decide kind of what is worth inserting and what

2611
02:24:17,840 --> 02:24:19,760
Speaker 1: is worth kind of just you know, no one needs

2612
02:24:19,760 --> 02:24:23,200
Speaker 1: to hear that within this context. Oh yeah, I don't

2613
02:24:23,200 --> 02:24:25,120
Speaker 1: think that that's an easy thing to answer, right, It's hard,

2614
02:24:25,160 --> 02:24:30,000
Speaker 1: Like there's a lot of landlines. But when um introspectively

2615
02:24:30,080 --> 02:24:32,480
Speaker 1: for me, the answer for me at least was, I'm

2616
02:24:32,520 --> 02:24:35,960
Speaker 1: just going to come to this content as my honest self, Like,

2617
02:24:36,200 --> 02:24:38,120
Speaker 1: if I'm just going to produce what I want to produce,

2618
02:24:38,120 --> 02:24:41,039
Speaker 1: it's and since I don't have to worry about advertising dollars,

2619
02:24:41,080 --> 02:24:42,760
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna make this ship I want to make.

2620
02:24:43,280 --> 02:24:47,520
Speaker 1: And as a result, I guess it's sometimes considered an

2621
02:24:47,520 --> 02:24:49,720
Speaker 1: alternative voice, but I don't think it really is. I

2622
02:24:49,760 --> 02:24:52,800
Speaker 1: think that the loud loud mouths have made it sound

2623
02:24:52,800 --> 02:24:54,840
Speaker 1: like there's only one voice in this community, but there isn't.

2624
02:24:55,200 --> 02:24:58,520
Speaker 1: And so by just being legitimate and honest and being me,

2625
02:24:59,160 --> 02:25:01,680
Speaker 1: there's turned out to be a lot of ground swell

2626
02:25:01,760 --> 02:25:04,000
Speaker 1: if you want to use grassroots type people out there

2627
02:25:04,000 --> 02:25:07,520
Speaker 1: that want to hear something that's not just evangelical American

2628
02:25:07,560 --> 02:25:11,880
Speaker 1: Taliban so. But but in terms of what where to where,

2629
02:25:11,920 --> 02:25:14,680
Speaker 1: what where to put your foot on? What landline, I

2630
02:25:14,680 --> 02:25:16,840
Speaker 1: guess I did. For me, my decision has been to

2631
02:25:16,840 --> 02:25:19,640
Speaker 1: do topics that have been intentionally ignored that shouldn't have been.

2632
02:25:19,920 --> 02:25:22,359
Speaker 1: Like I've done a bunch of videos about the confluence

2633
02:25:22,400 --> 02:25:25,240
Speaker 1: of civil rights and firearms ownership, which there's a lot

2634
02:25:25,280 --> 02:25:27,560
Speaker 1: of it, and it's it's really amazing how much there

2635
02:25:27,640 --> 02:25:30,720
Speaker 1: is and no one talks about it. Yeah, I mean

2636
02:25:30,760 --> 02:25:32,360
Speaker 1: we yeah, we We've chatted about that a little bit

2637
02:25:32,400 --> 02:25:34,440
Speaker 1: in some of our episodes. It was like nineteen nineteen

2638
02:25:34,480 --> 02:25:36,760
Speaker 1: when there were all those like race riots around the country,

2639
02:25:36,879 --> 02:25:39,200
Speaker 1: or even if you're looking at like the post construction period,

2640
02:25:39,280 --> 02:25:42,840
Speaker 1: there's a history both of like gun control being used

2641
02:25:42,840 --> 02:25:46,240
Speaker 1: for racist purposes, but also just of communities arming themselves,

2642
02:25:46,280 --> 02:25:50,160
Speaker 1: Black communities arming themselves. That is is woefully undertold, although

2643
02:25:50,440 --> 02:25:54,279
Speaker 1: it is people are starting to deal with it more thankfully. UM.

2644
02:25:54,320 --> 02:25:56,280
Speaker 1: I'm kind of interested in talking to you about sort

2645
02:25:56,280 --> 02:26:00,200
Speaker 1: of the culture jamming aspect of we have this huge

2646
02:26:00,240 --> 02:26:03,160
Speaker 1: gun culture. Aspects of it are very toxic and becoming

2647
02:26:03,320 --> 02:26:08,120
Speaker 1: politicized in a way that is um aggressive, Um, how

2648
02:26:08,160 --> 02:26:11,120
Speaker 1: do we how do we have a positive influence and

2649
02:26:11,240 --> 02:26:14,959
Speaker 1: kind of hopefully pull things back, because I do think

2650
02:26:15,400 --> 02:26:17,800
Speaker 1: within kind of the issue of gun rights, there's more

2651
02:26:18,520 --> 02:26:22,240
Speaker 1: actually more possibility for people to sort of come together

2652
02:26:22,320 --> 02:26:25,800
Speaker 1: and reaching a chord than there is on something like abortion. UM.

2653
02:26:25,840 --> 02:26:28,720
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of that conversation is going

2654
02:26:28,760 --> 02:26:32,240
Speaker 1: to start in spaces like the one you inhabit. Yeah, no,

2655
02:26:32,480 --> 02:26:34,959
Speaker 1: I yeah, I like what you say culture jamming, because

2656
02:26:35,000 --> 02:26:37,320
Speaker 1: another term I've heard is subversive. Well that's not the intent,

2657
02:26:37,440 --> 02:26:39,920
Speaker 1: but like you mentioned the Red Summer of nineteen nineteen,

2658
02:26:40,160 --> 02:26:42,400
Speaker 1: and yeah, I talked to when I talked to a

2659
02:26:42,440 --> 02:26:45,800
Speaker 1: lot of people that that are really hged historically interested

2660
02:26:45,840 --> 02:26:48,080
Speaker 1: in minded, and I was astonished how many people have

2661
02:26:48,160 --> 02:26:50,280
Speaker 1: not even heard of it. Never mind you only like

2662
02:26:50,320 --> 02:26:53,160
Speaker 1: the explicit realities of it. And so when it comes

2663
02:26:53,160 --> 02:26:55,520
Speaker 1: to the culture jamming thing, there's one video I did

2664
02:26:55,560 --> 02:26:58,240
Speaker 1: about or two of the events of Red Summer of

2665
02:26:58,280 --> 02:27:00,920
Speaker 1: nineteen nineteen, one of them here in Bisbee locally, and

2666
02:27:01,440 --> 02:27:04,560
Speaker 1: it's an interesting problem to someone who normally would be

2667
02:27:04,600 --> 02:27:09,440
Speaker 1: considered as a very standard issue firearms content creator. In

2668
02:27:09,440 --> 02:27:12,480
Speaker 1: that particular Red Summer nineteen nineteen episode, it turned into

2669
02:27:12,480 --> 02:27:17,360
Speaker 1: the local police attempting to disarm the tenth Cavalry soldiers

2670
02:27:17,680 --> 02:27:22,160
Speaker 1: who are off you know, military soldiers in bis beyond recreation.

2671
02:27:22,480 --> 02:27:24,959
Speaker 1: And so you've got this interesting cognitive dissonance. Do I

2672
02:27:25,040 --> 02:27:27,680
Speaker 1: support the cops that a lot of firearms people are

2673
02:27:27,720 --> 02:27:31,120
Speaker 1: like just blindly support, or do I support the military

2674
02:27:31,120 --> 02:27:34,000
Speaker 1: which a lot of farms people blindly support. When both

2675
02:27:34,000 --> 02:27:36,959
Speaker 1: of them converge and the and it's a racist agenda

2676
02:27:37,000 --> 02:27:39,360
Speaker 1: in it. That poses a question that I like to

2677
02:27:39,440 --> 02:27:41,760
Speaker 1: do with like this kind of content because it means

2678
02:27:41,760 --> 02:27:44,000
Speaker 1: that the viewer has to really, if they get through

2679
02:27:44,000 --> 02:27:46,879
Speaker 1: the video, have to introspectively go, Holy funk, which do

2680
02:27:46,959 --> 02:27:49,160
Speaker 1: I support or do I support either? Or is there

2681
02:27:49,160 --> 02:27:51,720
Speaker 1: a problem here I haven't been considering. I think asking

2682
02:27:51,840 --> 02:27:54,960
Speaker 1: questions like that really matters when you try to like

2683
02:27:55,160 --> 02:27:58,160
Speaker 1: start these conversations with people who are kind of in

2684
02:27:58,200 --> 02:28:01,560
Speaker 1: the same space but but not you know, I haven't

2685
02:28:01,600 --> 02:28:04,400
Speaker 1: considered talking about this stuff before or on what would

2686
02:28:04,400 --> 02:28:09,080
Speaker 1: traditionally be seen as kind of very opposed political um wing.

2687
02:28:09,440 --> 02:28:11,680
Speaker 1: How do you kind of start these conversations in a

2688
02:28:11,720 --> 02:28:14,240
Speaker 1: way that makes it most likely that you're gonna be

2689
02:28:14,280 --> 02:28:16,959
Speaker 1: able to have a positive dialogue that actually moves forward

2690
02:28:17,000 --> 02:28:18,920
Speaker 1: as opposed to kind of getting bogged down in the

2691
02:28:19,520 --> 02:28:21,160
Speaker 1: and the things that caused people to just kind of

2692
02:28:21,240 --> 02:28:24,880
Speaker 1: lock horns generally when you we start getting into these areas. Yeah,

2693
02:28:25,000 --> 02:28:26,959
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know, it's totally possible you're gonna

2694
02:28:27,000 --> 02:28:29,520
Speaker 1: have that problem no matter what you see that with

2695
02:28:29,520 --> 02:28:32,640
Speaker 1: your work. For surely when you take an honest approach

2696
02:28:32,640 --> 02:28:35,240
Speaker 1: to history and just be like, here's the facts. Um,

2697
02:28:35,280 --> 02:28:37,480
Speaker 1: there's gonna be people that are just gonna be completely

2698
02:28:37,480 --> 02:28:40,320
Speaker 1: resistant to that. They're not going to take it. But UM,

2699
02:28:40,360 --> 02:28:42,280
Speaker 1: I think the best way to do that is to

2700
02:28:42,440 --> 02:28:44,480
Speaker 1: just be that honest approach to it. Like one of

2701
02:28:44,480 --> 02:28:46,840
Speaker 1: the things that I think we do with firearms content

2702
02:28:47,360 --> 02:28:50,680
Speaker 1: gears cool tech is cool. Guns are neat, They're fun.

2703
02:28:50,840 --> 02:28:53,160
Speaker 1: I enjoy shooting with guns. I like the foard of it.

2704
02:28:53,400 --> 02:28:56,440
Speaker 1: I like going to competitions. But one of the things

2705
02:28:56,440 --> 02:28:58,480
Speaker 1: that gets left out of the conversation a lot is

2706
02:28:58,760 --> 02:29:01,960
Speaker 1: what are the implications of arms and the sociological economic

2707
02:29:02,080 --> 02:29:04,000
Speaker 1: environments that we live in. And I think that's one

2708
02:29:04,040 --> 02:29:05,840
Speaker 1: of the things that didn't get talked about. And so

2709
02:29:06,240 --> 02:29:09,200
Speaker 1: if we talk about it fairly and also tend to

2710
02:29:10,160 --> 02:29:12,360
Speaker 1: I think it's hard to do, but have people from

2711
02:29:12,360 --> 02:29:15,040
Speaker 1: all sides of this perspective, as long as they're not

2712
02:29:15,959 --> 02:29:19,240
Speaker 1: completely dangerous and toxic, being part of the conversation. We

2713
02:29:19,240 --> 02:29:21,840
Speaker 1: can have a better middle ground. That's the hard part.

2714
02:29:21,920 --> 02:29:24,959
Speaker 1: Like so being inclusive, ironically, even of views that you

2715
02:29:24,959 --> 02:29:27,400
Speaker 1: aren't necessarily your own, as long as the person you're

2716
02:29:27,440 --> 02:29:31,400
Speaker 1: dealing with isn't my line is if you're actively supporting

2717
02:29:31,680 --> 02:29:35,440
Speaker 1: bigotry or the harm of other people, there's a no go,

2718
02:29:35,560 --> 02:29:38,000
Speaker 1: We're done. But if we have different views but we

2719
02:29:38,080 --> 02:29:40,480
Speaker 1: realize that that's not the intent, then then we should

2720
02:29:40,520 --> 02:29:43,200
Speaker 1: have a conversation. I think that that's a big difference now.

2721
02:29:43,360 --> 02:29:45,000
Speaker 1: I think one of the areas in which this can

2722
02:29:45,040 --> 02:29:47,440
Speaker 1: get murkiest is when you are talking to people and

2723
02:29:47,440 --> 02:29:50,720
Speaker 1: I've had a few of these conversations who are convinced

2724
02:29:50,760 --> 02:29:54,160
Speaker 1: that there is uh that they're kind of on the

2725
02:29:54,160 --> 02:29:58,039
Speaker 1: precipice of of a violent conflict sparked by someone coming

2726
02:29:58,040 --> 02:30:00,520
Speaker 1: to take their guns right that, and it in you know,

2727
02:30:00,560 --> 02:30:03,240
Speaker 1: there's the version of this that is like, I'm worried

2728
02:30:03,280 --> 02:30:04,760
Speaker 1: that the a t F is going to do some

2729
02:30:04,800 --> 02:30:06,240
Speaker 1: fuckory in a bunch of my ship is going to

2730
02:30:06,240 --> 02:30:08,039
Speaker 1: be illegal, which is pretty reasonable. And then there's the

2731
02:30:08,360 --> 02:30:10,480
Speaker 1: I'm worried Antifa's going to come to my small town

2732
02:30:10,560 --> 02:30:12,880
Speaker 1: and and and take my you know, guns or do

2733
02:30:12,920 --> 02:30:15,959
Speaker 1: whatever like Because that there are often people in that

2734
02:30:16,040 --> 02:30:21,840
Speaker 1: who are just kind of um tragically misinformed and radicalized

2735
02:30:21,879 --> 02:30:25,640
Speaker 1: in a way that they're not so much eager to

2736
02:30:25,800 --> 02:30:28,840
Speaker 1: harm people as they are just like broken and frightened

2737
02:30:28,879 --> 02:30:31,840
Speaker 1: because of the things that have been fed to them. Um,

2738
02:30:31,879 --> 02:30:34,000
Speaker 1: do you have any kind of best practices when it

2739
02:30:34,040 --> 02:30:37,400
Speaker 1: comes to sort of approaching those conversations and trying to

2740
02:30:37,440 --> 02:30:40,840
Speaker 1: improve the information those people are getting. I guess for

2741
02:30:40,879 --> 02:30:42,600
Speaker 1: me in that regardless of what I when I see

2742
02:30:42,640 --> 02:30:44,120
Speaker 1: people like that, and I think all of us have

2743
02:30:44,240 --> 02:30:46,400
Speaker 1: those people in our world, whether it's your your aunt

2744
02:30:46,480 --> 02:30:48,280
Speaker 1: or your uncle or a friend, right, Like we've seen

2745
02:30:48,320 --> 02:30:50,680
Speaker 1: that over the last couple of years for sure. Um,

2746
02:30:50,800 --> 02:30:52,640
Speaker 1: I think the best thing you can do there for

2747
02:30:52,720 --> 02:30:54,920
Speaker 1: me again, I'm just talking to my approach and is

2748
02:30:55,000 --> 02:30:58,080
Speaker 1: a break the echo chamber if you can? And so

2749
02:30:58,280 --> 02:31:00,160
Speaker 1: the echo chamber of the problem when we suck from

2750
02:31:00,160 --> 02:31:03,400
Speaker 1: the fire hose of only one source like NonStop. Yeah,

2751
02:31:03,480 --> 02:31:05,240
Speaker 1: that's gonna be dangerous. That's the kind of stuff that

2752
02:31:05,280 --> 02:31:06,840
Speaker 1: pollutes your mind to the point where you can't think

2753
02:31:06,840 --> 02:31:10,480
Speaker 1: outside of that box. So like being more inclusive and

2754
02:31:10,760 --> 02:31:13,560
Speaker 1: that word is kind of a trigger word, a catchphrase,

2755
02:31:13,600 --> 02:31:16,480
Speaker 1: but being legitimately more inclusive and presenting a lot of

2756
02:31:16,520 --> 02:31:20,039
Speaker 1: different diversity that really is part of the firearms community.

2757
02:31:20,360 --> 02:31:23,480
Speaker 1: Can I can in some circumstances break the echo chamber?

2758
02:31:23,760 --> 02:31:25,960
Speaker 1: Like I'm really happy with this one. Project on the

2759
02:31:26,000 --> 02:31:29,160
Speaker 1: channel where I'm working with the net Evans about specifically

2760
02:31:29,680 --> 02:31:32,840
Speaker 1: a female or woman's approach to self defense with firearms,

2761
02:31:33,040 --> 02:31:35,000
Speaker 1: and you don't really see that. You'll see like channels

2762
02:31:35,000 --> 02:31:37,480
Speaker 1: that are only for women, and you'll see like all

2763
02:31:37,480 --> 02:31:40,480
Speaker 1: the majority of gun channels that are only for gun

2764
02:31:40,520 --> 02:31:43,760
Speaker 1: fascinated dudes. But like throwing that into the mix, there's

2765
02:31:43,800 --> 02:31:45,680
Speaker 1: gonna be some subset of people that will clicking and

2766
02:31:45,720 --> 02:31:47,840
Speaker 1: watch it out of that g whiz lewel and that

2767
02:31:47,879 --> 02:31:50,240
Speaker 1: kind of stuff can break a paradigm in terms of well,

2768
02:31:50,280 --> 02:31:51,880
Speaker 1: I never thought of that. I never looked at it

2769
02:31:51,920 --> 02:31:53,960
Speaker 1: from that perspective, And that's at least that's what I

2770
02:31:54,000 --> 02:31:56,760
Speaker 1: think is the great answer is do your best to

2771
02:31:56,840 --> 02:32:01,800
Speaker 1: make sure you're approachable and try to break the echo chamber. Yeah,

2772
02:32:01,959 --> 02:32:03,760
Speaker 1: that makes complete Yeah, I mean that makes a lot

2773
02:32:03,800 --> 02:32:07,400
Speaker 1: of sense. Um. I think on the other side of

2774
02:32:07,440 --> 02:32:09,440
Speaker 1: this is also worth talking about because we've kind of

2775
02:32:09,440 --> 02:32:11,600
Speaker 1: been focused on how do you break the echo chamber,

2776
02:32:11,640 --> 02:32:13,320
Speaker 1: how do you get people who are you know, in

2777
02:32:13,360 --> 02:32:17,039
Speaker 1: the gun culture on the right to be more open minded.

2778
02:32:17,320 --> 02:32:19,040
Speaker 1: The other side of this is you have a lot

2779
02:32:19,040 --> 02:32:21,640
Speaker 1: of people who are kind of liberals um or on

2780
02:32:21,680 --> 02:32:26,080
Speaker 1: the left who have a really reflexively negative opinion to

2781
02:32:26,160 --> 02:32:30,120
Speaker 1: the reaction to the very idea of gun ownership or

2782
02:32:30,120 --> 02:32:32,800
Speaker 1: gun rights and have these you know, you will generally

2783
02:32:32,800 --> 02:32:35,640
Speaker 1: see there's there's a mix of people who can come

2784
02:32:35,640 --> 02:32:37,640
Speaker 1: to it from a very reasonable and argued point in

2785
02:32:37,640 --> 02:32:39,160
Speaker 1: a mix of people who are just going to, like

2786
02:32:39,560 --> 02:32:40,880
Speaker 1: in the same way that folks on the right to

2787
02:32:41,040 --> 02:32:44,440
Speaker 1: throw out a handful of quotes that they've seen on memes, um,

2788
02:32:44,480 --> 02:32:46,760
Speaker 1: that they can use to kind of, you know, shut

2789
02:32:46,760 --> 02:32:48,920
Speaker 1: down debate. How do you do you have a lot

2790
02:32:49,000 --> 02:32:51,039
Speaker 1: of those conversations where you're kind of trying to make

2791
02:32:51,040 --> 02:32:53,039
Speaker 1: people at least more open to because this is something

2792
02:32:53,040 --> 02:32:54,400
Speaker 1: my work is dealt with a lot. Is kind of

2793
02:32:54,400 --> 02:32:56,520
Speaker 1: trying to sit down to Like, I get why you

2794
02:32:56,520 --> 02:32:59,600
Speaker 1: don't think these things should be legal. Um, obviously I

2795
02:32:59,800 --> 02:33:02,440
Speaker 1: I see the same mass shooting news that you do.

2796
02:33:02,720 --> 02:33:05,280
Speaker 1: There's a problem, a deep problem with guns in this country.

2797
02:33:05,360 --> 02:33:07,920
Speaker 1: I don't deny that, But like, let's also talk about

2798
02:33:08,440 --> 02:33:11,360
Speaker 1: the idea that the state should have an absolute monopoly

2799
02:33:11,440 --> 02:33:13,720
Speaker 1: on on the ability to do violence. Let's talk about

2800
02:33:14,080 --> 02:33:16,680
Speaker 1: the ability of marginalized groups to defend themselves. Let's talk

2801
02:33:16,680 --> 02:33:18,560
Speaker 1: about the history of gun control and how it's like

2802
02:33:19,080 --> 02:33:21,480
Speaker 1: it is it is. There's a lot of conversations that

2803
02:33:21,600 --> 02:33:24,880
Speaker 1: kind of get wrapped up in that. Um, I'm wondering,

2804
02:33:25,160 --> 02:33:27,160
Speaker 1: do you have thoughts in terms of like how to

2805
02:33:27,240 --> 02:33:30,360
Speaker 1: kind of broach those and progressive avenues to go down

2806
02:33:30,440 --> 02:33:32,959
Speaker 1: to when you're having that side of the conversation. You know,

2807
02:33:33,000 --> 02:33:35,080
Speaker 1: it's totally interesting. I think I feel like I don't.

2808
02:33:35,200 --> 02:33:36,920
Speaker 1: I'm curious what you think about this from your work

2809
02:33:36,959 --> 02:33:40,400
Speaker 1: as well. I feel like over the last for good reasons,

2810
02:33:40,680 --> 02:33:42,920
Speaker 1: over the last couple of years, more than a couple

2811
02:33:42,920 --> 02:33:45,480
Speaker 1: of years, I think I've seen, maybe it's just my

2812
02:33:45,560 --> 02:33:48,280
Speaker 1: own echo chamber, I've seen a lot of people on

2813
02:33:48,520 --> 02:33:51,120
Speaker 1: that side of the political spectrum coming more and more

2814
02:33:51,200 --> 02:33:54,200
Speaker 1: around too being pro gun. Yeah. I mean then the

2815
02:33:54,240 --> 02:33:57,560
Speaker 1: statistics back that up. Supportive in central in the United

2816
02:33:57,600 --> 02:33:59,640
Speaker 1: States is the lowest it's been in quite a while.

2817
02:34:00,000 --> 02:34:01,920
Speaker 1: Into that like if there's that joke on that side

2818
02:34:01,920 --> 02:34:03,720
Speaker 1: of the political fence, but you go far enough left

2819
02:34:03,720 --> 02:34:06,240
Speaker 1: to get your guns back right, um so Um, But

2820
02:34:06,320 --> 02:34:07,959
Speaker 1: I think there's been a real wake up call for

2821
02:34:08,000 --> 02:34:10,360
Speaker 1: a lot of people that used to be very much

2822
02:34:10,440 --> 02:34:13,120
Speaker 1: vehemently against the idea, with some of the stuff they

2823
02:34:13,120 --> 02:34:17,480
Speaker 1: saw and went, whoa, Um, this isn't These aren't going away.

2824
02:34:17,920 --> 02:34:19,600
Speaker 1: And if you're reasonable, if you're willing to have a

2825
02:34:19,720 --> 02:34:22,560
Speaker 1: rational thought about, at least in this country, the reality

2826
02:34:22,560 --> 02:34:24,680
Speaker 1: of firearms ownership, whether you like it or not, it's

2827
02:34:24,720 --> 02:34:26,920
Speaker 1: not debatable. This is real. It's what it is. They're

2828
02:34:26,959 --> 02:34:29,280
Speaker 1: not like they could ban everything tomorrow and there's gonna

2829
02:34:29,280 --> 02:34:32,320
Speaker 1: be air fifteens in this country for the next hundred years. Um,

2830
02:34:32,400 --> 02:34:35,840
Speaker 1: so that ain't gonna change. So with that realization, maybe

2831
02:34:35,840 --> 02:34:38,160
Speaker 1: the maybe the better idea, which I think is with

2832
02:34:38,200 --> 02:34:40,920
Speaker 1: all technology, is instead of being afraid of it, is

2833
02:34:40,959 --> 02:34:43,240
Speaker 1: to actually learn about it and understand it. Whether you

2834
02:34:43,280 --> 02:34:46,360
Speaker 1: want it or not. You but like learning and understanding

2835
02:34:46,360 --> 02:34:48,640
Speaker 1: it is at least a step further forward than just

2836
02:34:48,800 --> 02:34:52,400
Speaker 1: complete abject fear. Yeah. That that is often kind of

2837
02:34:52,400 --> 02:34:54,879
Speaker 1: where I start the conversation with just like we have

2838
02:34:55,000 --> 02:34:57,199
Speaker 1: to deal with the reality as it is on the ground,

2839
02:34:57,200 --> 02:35:00,320
Speaker 1: which is that there's million firearms and I have at

2840
02:35:00,360 --> 02:35:02,240
Speaker 1: hands here, which is not all that far from half

2841
02:35:02,240 --> 02:35:05,120
Speaker 1: of all of the guns in the world. Um So

2842
02:35:05,200 --> 02:35:07,720
Speaker 1: any any sort of like plan you have, it's the

2843
02:35:07,800 --> 02:35:09,520
Speaker 1: kind of like one of the things that often comes

2844
02:35:09,560 --> 02:35:12,200
Speaker 1: up in those conversations is Australia and people they were like,

2845
02:35:12,240 --> 02:35:14,480
Speaker 1: well they were able to do it after Now Port

2846
02:35:14,600 --> 02:35:17,600
Speaker 1: Arthur was Scotland. Um, I forget the name of the massacre,

2847
02:35:17,840 --> 02:35:20,400
Speaker 1: but there was a massacre in in in in Australia

2848
02:35:20,480 --> 02:35:25,560
Speaker 1: that they banned most kinds of firearms after and confiscated them,

2849
02:35:25,800 --> 02:35:27,280
Speaker 1: and it gets brought up a lot were like, well,

2850
02:35:27,320 --> 02:35:29,000
Speaker 1: they did this in the short frame of time, and

2851
02:35:29,000 --> 02:35:31,800
Speaker 1: there was this this impact on gun violence deaths. Why

2852
02:35:31,840 --> 02:35:34,280
Speaker 1: couldn't we do it? And the reason is that they

2853
02:35:34,280 --> 02:35:36,560
Speaker 1: had to confiscate a total of two hundred thousand arms

2854
02:35:36,600 --> 02:35:38,600
Speaker 1: and there's four hundred million guns in private hands in

2855
02:35:38,640 --> 02:35:43,640
Speaker 1: the United States. Um, it's it's a different scale of problem.

2856
02:35:43,720 --> 02:35:45,920
Speaker 1: And that that's before we get into sort of illegal

2857
02:35:45,959 --> 02:35:49,240
Speaker 1: barriers because Australia didn't have a Second Amendment. Obviously, like

2858
02:35:49,560 --> 02:35:51,880
Speaker 1: whether or not you like it, firearms have a level

2859
02:35:51,879 --> 02:35:54,360
Speaker 1: of protection that is equivalent to the protection free speech

2860
02:35:54,440 --> 02:35:57,160
Speaker 1: enjoys in this country. And you can't just pretend that's

2861
02:35:57,200 --> 02:36:02,280
Speaker 1: not the case. There's a tremendous body of jurisprudence around it. Yeah, no, totally,

2862
02:36:02,360 --> 02:36:03,960
Speaker 1: and like so that that's that's part of it is

2863
02:36:04,000 --> 02:36:06,279
Speaker 1: the reality there Australia and here is a completely different

2864
02:36:06,480 --> 02:36:08,800
Speaker 1: beast as well as culturally, like the people that were

2865
02:36:08,800 --> 02:36:10,520
Speaker 1: into guns there, and I don't mean to offend any

2866
02:36:10,520 --> 02:36:13,600
Speaker 1: Australians listening, but it wasn't like here, like in a

2867
02:36:13,600 --> 02:36:17,160
Speaker 1: place of Arizona. At places like Arizona, guns are just

2868
02:36:18,400 --> 02:36:21,440
Speaker 1: if you're in Arizona, and they're just intrinsically part of life,

2869
02:36:21,720 --> 02:36:24,200
Speaker 1: whether like they're just constant, they're everywhere you go to,

2870
02:36:24,320 --> 02:36:26,680
Speaker 1: like you see them open care, not always do she

2871
02:36:26,840 --> 02:36:29,480
Speaker 1: open care either. Sometimes it's like reasonable open care. Sometimes

2872
02:36:29,520 --> 02:36:31,959
Speaker 1: you see the other side of it. But they're just everywhere.

2873
02:36:31,959 --> 02:36:33,400
Speaker 1: It's just part of the deal. And it's like a

2874
02:36:33,440 --> 02:36:34,920
Speaker 1: lot of that in a lot of the country. And

2875
02:36:34,959 --> 02:36:39,120
Speaker 1: so um I actually think that that fear based ignorance

2876
02:36:39,160 --> 02:36:42,120
Speaker 1: of them is more dangerous because then we don't teach

2877
02:36:42,160 --> 02:36:43,680
Speaker 1: people what to do around them or how to be

2878
02:36:43,720 --> 02:36:46,880
Speaker 1: safe around them, kind of like abstinence, Like education and

2879
02:36:46,920 --> 02:36:49,680
Speaker 1: school teach people not to have sen that's fucking dumb,

2880
02:36:49,840 --> 02:36:52,640
Speaker 1: that ain't gonna work, and guns exist in this country.

2881
02:36:52,680 --> 02:36:54,640
Speaker 1: Does just be afraid of them that don't work either,

2882
02:36:55,080 --> 02:36:58,760
Speaker 1: So in the regard, I think that the reality is

2883
02:36:58,800 --> 02:37:02,000
Speaker 1: it's much better to to approach this. What I think.

2884
02:37:02,040 --> 02:37:03,480
Speaker 1: I guess the way I try to deal with that

2885
02:37:03,600 --> 02:37:07,400
Speaker 1: is if you don't fetishize them, people that are more

2886
02:37:07,440 --> 02:37:10,160
Speaker 1: afraid of them are less likely to just click away.

2887
02:37:10,480 --> 02:37:12,560
Speaker 1: If you talk about them like this is a thing,

2888
02:37:12,920 --> 02:37:15,560
Speaker 1: here's what they are. They're not a totem against evil.

2889
02:37:15,600 --> 02:37:18,920
Speaker 1: They're just a tool. And here's a historical story or

2890
02:37:19,000 --> 02:37:22,520
Speaker 1: narrative or sociological impact of this that's not fetishizing it

2891
02:37:22,560 --> 02:37:25,600
Speaker 1: as some religious item. I think that that helps break

2892
02:37:25,600 --> 02:37:28,280
Speaker 1: that barrier a little bit. And I think that that

2893
02:37:28,320 --> 02:37:30,120
Speaker 1: does bring me to something I think about a lot,

2894
02:37:30,240 --> 02:37:33,320
Speaker 1: which is the how you're in and actually has I

2895
02:37:33,320 --> 02:37:35,440
Speaker 1: think gotten a bit better than it was prior to

2896
02:37:35,480 --> 02:37:37,879
Speaker 1: Sandy Hook, but the very sorry state in a lot

2897
02:37:37,879 --> 02:37:41,959
Speaker 1: of cases of advertising of gear and guns. Um. I

2898
02:37:41,959 --> 02:37:44,280
Speaker 1: think the most famous example was a I believe it

2899
02:37:44,280 --> 02:37:47,160
Speaker 1: was a Bushmaster ad that got pulled after Sandy Hook

2900
02:37:47,240 --> 02:37:49,240
Speaker 1: that was like an a R fifteen that came with

2901
02:37:49,280 --> 02:37:51,760
Speaker 1: a man card that you would get like with your gun,

2902
02:37:52,400 --> 02:37:54,600
Speaker 1: Get your card back. I think it's get your Man

2903
02:37:54,600 --> 02:37:57,039
Speaker 1: card back. Your man card has been reissued because you

2904
02:37:57,040 --> 02:38:00,720
Speaker 1: have this gun here and that I I you know,

2905
02:38:00,840 --> 02:38:03,800
Speaker 1: I've seen a lot of different gun cultures because it's actually,

2906
02:38:03,879 --> 02:38:06,040
Speaker 1: like we've just talked about how unique u s gun

2907
02:38:06,080 --> 02:38:09,280
Speaker 1: culture is, but a lot of people actually own firearms

2908
02:38:09,320 --> 02:38:11,160
Speaker 1: around the world. There's a lot of even like in Europe,

2909
02:38:11,160 --> 02:38:14,240
Speaker 1: like France has a very significant gun culture, UM, and

2910
02:38:14,280 --> 02:38:16,520
Speaker 1: in Germany you'd be surprised, like people can own a

2911
02:38:16,560 --> 02:38:18,000
Speaker 1: lot of the same weapons you can here. There's a

2912
02:38:18,000 --> 02:38:20,279
Speaker 1: lot more hoops to jump through to to get access

2913
02:38:20,360 --> 02:38:23,480
Speaker 1: to them. Um, But there's still like there's gun cultures

2914
02:38:23,480 --> 02:38:27,200
Speaker 1: all around, and especially places like Iraq and Syria. It

2915
02:38:27,280 --> 02:38:29,720
Speaker 1: was really going to um when I saw kind of

2916
02:38:29,760 --> 02:38:32,800
Speaker 1: the gun culture that I most wanted to put some

2917
02:38:32,879 --> 02:38:35,560
Speaker 1: things over to hear from there. It was in northeast

2918
02:38:35,640 --> 02:38:39,800
Speaker 1: Syria in Rojava, where like damn near every not every individual,

2919
02:38:39,800 --> 02:38:41,879
Speaker 1: but every like family had an a k because in

2920
02:38:41,959 --> 02:38:44,760
Speaker 1: part there was this understanding that you have a duty

2921
02:38:44,800 --> 02:38:47,240
Speaker 1: from time to time to like patrol and watch your

2922
02:38:47,240 --> 02:38:49,320
Speaker 1: neighborhood and not in sort of this like I'm gonna

2923
02:38:49,400 --> 02:38:52,320
Speaker 1: set up a checkpoint for Antifa, but in I like, hey,

2924
02:38:52,360 --> 02:38:54,840
Speaker 1: isis just carried out a big attack. Let's let's get

2925
02:38:54,920 --> 02:38:57,520
Speaker 1: some folks out into the streets to like watch our neighborhoods,

2926
02:38:57,520 --> 02:38:59,360
Speaker 1: because that's just the reality of the world, and we

2927
02:38:59,400 --> 02:39:01,640
Speaker 1: don't we don't do we don't just have like a

2928
02:39:01,640 --> 02:39:05,240
Speaker 1: group of militarized police rolling around every neighborhood. Like, we

2929
02:39:05,320 --> 02:39:09,160
Speaker 1: also are responsible for protecting our communities, and so we

2930
02:39:09,240 --> 02:39:11,640
Speaker 1: train with weapons. And there was a lot of conversations

2931
02:39:11,680 --> 02:39:14,720
Speaker 1: I had with women about like, well, the fact that

2932
02:39:14,800 --> 02:39:16,520
Speaker 1: I have this and know how to use it now

2933
02:39:16,600 --> 02:39:18,800
Speaker 1: means that things can't be done to me that were

2934
02:39:18,840 --> 02:39:21,240
Speaker 1: before because I have an a K forty seven, and

2935
02:39:21,280 --> 02:39:25,199
Speaker 1: that means something I would like to port the kind

2936
02:39:25,200 --> 02:39:27,640
Speaker 1: of like what you were talking about, not just seeing

2937
02:39:27,720 --> 02:39:29,640
Speaker 1: it as a tool, but seeing it as a tool

2938
02:39:29,680 --> 02:39:33,800
Speaker 1: with societal responsibilities. You don't just have a gun so

2939
02:39:33,840 --> 02:39:35,920
Speaker 1: you can hold up in your house in the zombie apocalypse.

2940
02:39:35,920 --> 02:39:38,640
Speaker 1: You have a gun because you're part of a community

2941
02:39:39,120 --> 02:39:42,120
Speaker 1: and because there's there's some value that we see in

2942
02:39:42,440 --> 02:39:47,200
Speaker 1: members of the community being armed and not just the state. Yeah, no, totally.

2943
02:39:47,280 --> 02:39:48,720
Speaker 1: So I mean that goes that kind of goes way

2944
02:39:48,720 --> 02:39:51,800
Speaker 1: back to the old like now sort of silly sounding thing,

2945
02:39:51,879 --> 02:39:54,320
Speaker 1: but like God made man called me them equal, right,

2946
02:39:54,360 --> 02:39:57,560
Speaker 1: so before that, like if you were a frail human being,

2947
02:39:57,720 --> 02:40:01,000
Speaker 1: for whatever reasons. Um, you really a sort of defenseless,

2948
02:40:01,080 --> 02:40:03,879
Speaker 1: especially in the places like the frontier, but skill at

2949
02:40:04,000 --> 02:40:07,879
Speaker 1: arms could change that. And um, and that it puts

2950
02:40:08,000 --> 02:40:12,240
Speaker 1: it can put a more balanced power infrastructure in place. UM.

2951
02:40:12,240 --> 02:40:13,440
Speaker 1: Not that I want to live in a world, but

2952
02:40:13,560 --> 02:40:16,680
Speaker 1: we're always like at this point of mutually assured destruction.

2953
02:40:17,160 --> 02:40:19,840
Speaker 1: But it is much better to have more power balanced

2954
02:40:19,840 --> 02:40:24,959
Speaker 1: than power imbalance. And firearms absolutely provide that in trained, responsible,

2955
02:40:25,120 --> 02:40:28,160
Speaker 1: educated hands. UM. And that's what I think the story

2956
02:40:28,200 --> 02:40:30,480
Speaker 1: should be, right, that's the emphasis. Like when when the

2957
02:40:30,480 --> 02:40:32,640
Speaker 1: whole thing happened went down in Iraq like you're describing,

2958
02:40:32,640 --> 02:40:34,760
Speaker 1: I think it was ironic. One of the things that

2959
02:40:34,920 --> 02:40:36,920
Speaker 1: the US military did was allowed every home to have

2960
02:40:36,959 --> 02:40:39,160
Speaker 1: an AK, like because you get to keep one gun

2961
02:40:39,200 --> 02:40:41,240
Speaker 1: and it's one of these and uh. And you talked

2962
02:40:41,240 --> 02:40:44,640
Speaker 1: about gun ownership worldwide like, Um, once you've jumped through

2963
02:40:44,680 --> 02:40:47,200
Speaker 1: some of the hurdles in some of these countries, it's

2964
02:40:47,200 --> 02:40:50,040
Speaker 1: actually easier to own certain things than you can like

2965
02:40:50,040 --> 02:40:54,080
Speaker 1: like for example, Yeah, like a machine gun in the

2966
02:40:54,160 --> 02:40:57,240
Speaker 1: US is highly regulated. It's four and pretty difficult and

2967
02:40:57,320 --> 02:41:00,520
Speaker 1: highly expensive because of a specially closed market. But like

2968
02:41:01,160 --> 02:41:02,680
Speaker 1: bloke on the range, one of the guys I work

2969
02:41:02,720 --> 02:41:05,440
Speaker 1: with on on on YouTube, once he gets his permit,

2970
02:41:05,520 --> 02:41:06,960
Speaker 1: like he's like, I'm just gonna go buy a fully

2971
02:41:07,000 --> 02:41:09,520
Speaker 1: automatic stent, and he just does. And it's not at

2972
02:41:09,520 --> 02:41:11,840
Speaker 1: an exorbitant price like it would be in the United States,

2973
02:41:11,879 --> 02:41:14,600
Speaker 1: So it's not apples to apples. Like these controls, whether

2974
02:41:14,640 --> 02:41:16,119
Speaker 1: we like them or not, some of them are actually

2975
02:41:16,120 --> 02:41:18,920
Speaker 1: more liberal than we have in the United States. Yeah,

2976
02:41:18,920 --> 02:41:21,080
Speaker 1: and I think a good example of that, and an

2977
02:41:21,080 --> 02:41:22,920
Speaker 1: example of where like a lot of folks who might

2978
02:41:23,000 --> 02:41:26,960
Speaker 1: kind of reflexively think this is insane, but like it's silencers,

2979
02:41:27,040 --> 02:41:30,160
Speaker 1: you know, suppressors being the more accurate term, but silencer

2980
02:41:30,200 --> 02:41:31,400
Speaker 1: is what you call and it's the thing you see

2981
02:41:31,440 --> 02:41:32,959
Speaker 1: James Bond screw on the end of his gun to

2982
02:41:32,959 --> 02:41:37,680
Speaker 1: make it quiet um. And there's the like this attitude

2983
02:41:37,680 --> 02:41:40,400
Speaker 1: that they should be heavily restricted because there's this misnomer

2984
02:41:40,480 --> 02:41:43,240
Speaker 1: that for the most part, they make things sound like

2985
02:41:43,280 --> 02:41:45,039
Speaker 1: stuff in James Bond. Now, there are some ways to

2986
02:41:45,080 --> 02:41:49,280
Speaker 1: get a firearm that is incredibly quiet um, particularly using

2987
02:41:49,320 --> 02:41:51,840
Speaker 1: like a smaller round and sub sonic ammunition. There are

2988
02:41:51,840 --> 02:41:55,160
Speaker 1: some very some weapons you can effectively make quiet enough

2989
02:41:55,160 --> 02:41:57,200
Speaker 1: that people won't notice it. But when you're putting a

2990
02:41:57,240 --> 02:41:59,760
Speaker 1: silencer on an a R fifteen, it is not quiet.

2991
02:42:00,000 --> 02:42:02,800
Speaker 1: No one will miss it firing. But what it won't

2992
02:42:02,840 --> 02:42:04,760
Speaker 1: do if you have to defend yourself in your home

2993
02:42:05,080 --> 02:42:08,200
Speaker 1: is shatter your ear drums forever, right, Or this is

2994
02:42:08,240 --> 02:42:11,560
Speaker 1: honestly the bigger case for suppressors. If you are hunting

2995
02:42:11,600 --> 02:42:13,520
Speaker 1: with an animal, as a lot of people do with

2996
02:42:13,560 --> 02:42:16,440
Speaker 1: your dogs, you can have a suppressor on your shotgun

2997
02:42:16,440 --> 02:42:18,120
Speaker 1: as your bird hunting or whatever, and you will not

2998
02:42:18,200 --> 02:42:21,440
Speaker 1: destroy that dog's ears. Um, you know, it's the same

2999
02:42:21,440 --> 02:42:23,400
Speaker 1: thing like I'm hunting for deer. You know, it's it's

3000
02:42:23,480 --> 02:42:27,400
Speaker 1: it's easier. Um, it's like less dangerous for you potentially,

3001
02:42:27,440 --> 02:42:29,880
Speaker 1: Like I. One thing you know is if you've spent

3002
02:42:29,920 --> 02:42:32,120
Speaker 1: a lot of time around hunting dogs, they don't have

3003
02:42:32,200 --> 02:42:34,960
Speaker 1: good hearing by the time they get older because they're hunting.

3004
02:42:36,840 --> 02:42:39,240
Speaker 1: You know. It's funny suppressors, like everything that's that's more

3005
02:42:39,320 --> 02:42:42,600
Speaker 1: controlled has got a allure of magic around it, right, Like, oh,

3006
02:42:42,680 --> 02:42:45,240
Speaker 1: a suppressor, a silencer or or for that matter, of

3007
02:42:45,320 --> 02:42:47,680
Speaker 1: machine gun, and like therefore it is the forbidden fruit,

3008
02:42:47,879 --> 02:42:49,680
Speaker 1: and everyone wants it more than they ever would have.

3009
02:42:50,000 --> 02:42:52,760
Speaker 1: Once you own I have one transferable machine guns with

3010
02:42:52,840 --> 02:42:55,080
Speaker 1: tax stamped the whole nine yards, and I shoot it

3011
02:42:55,120 --> 02:42:56,760
Speaker 1: like once a year, because you shoot it and then

3012
02:42:56,760 --> 02:43:00,280
Speaker 1: you're like, wow, that was expensive and fifty bucks and

3013
02:43:00,400 --> 02:43:02,280
Speaker 1: it's like, oh we that was fun, and then you

3014
02:43:02,320 --> 02:43:04,160
Speaker 1: put it away. And the truth is the sum automatic

3015
02:43:04,160 --> 02:43:07,720
Speaker 1: stuff is far more interesting and actually generally more effective.

3016
02:43:08,000 --> 02:43:10,160
Speaker 1: What's you use full auto fire? It's got very limited

3017
02:43:10,280 --> 02:43:12,960
Speaker 1: use um fully there there, I mean there is like,

3018
02:43:13,000 --> 02:43:15,640
Speaker 1: if we again are being complete, there's one mass shooting

3019
02:43:15,680 --> 02:43:19,000
Speaker 1: I can think of where a fully automatic weapon made

3020
02:43:19,040 --> 02:43:21,680
Speaker 1: the shooter more dangerous and it was the Las Vegas

3021
02:43:21,680 --> 02:43:25,640
Speaker 1: shooting because he was in a set fixed position UM.

3022
02:43:25,680 --> 02:43:28,080
Speaker 1: He was hold up UM and he had he was

3023
02:43:28,200 --> 02:43:30,880
Speaker 1: not like moving and standing. He was like braced while

3024
02:43:30,959 --> 02:43:34,240
Speaker 1: firing into a crowd from a building. As a general rule,

3025
02:43:34,240 --> 02:43:36,720
Speaker 1: if you're talking about like what's someone going to be

3026
02:43:36,760 --> 02:43:39,560
Speaker 1: more dangerous with, if they're somebody who decides to shoot

3027
02:43:39,600 --> 02:43:42,360
Speaker 1: up something, it's a semi automatic weapon. Because an automatic

3028
02:43:42,360 --> 02:43:45,600
Speaker 1: weapon number one going to jam more often requires a

3029
02:43:45,600 --> 02:43:48,440
Speaker 1: bit more understanding and know how on behalf of the user,

3030
02:43:48,480 --> 02:43:50,280
Speaker 1: and also is a lot harder to hit with. And

3031
02:43:50,280 --> 02:43:52,560
Speaker 1: we'll run out of ammunition very quickly as opposed to

3032
02:43:52,600 --> 02:43:55,120
Speaker 1: it and a semi automatic a R fifteen. The reason

3033
02:43:55,160 --> 02:43:57,520
Speaker 1: they are so often used in mass shootings is it's

3034
02:43:57,600 --> 02:43:59,480
Speaker 1: kind of the best weapon to use for that. If

3035
02:43:59,480 --> 02:44:03,840
Speaker 1: that's it's all so prolistic, right, there's like or cordwood

3036
02:44:03,840 --> 02:44:06,320
Speaker 1: in this country. You can like, they're literally everywhere. Um,

3037
02:44:06,720 --> 02:44:08,400
Speaker 1: the Las Vega shooter, though I don't know that he

3038
02:44:08,400 --> 02:44:11,080
Speaker 1: had actually any truly select fire guns, weren't they. Yeah,

3039
02:44:11,320 --> 02:44:13,320
Speaker 1: he was using a bump stock. I think it's close

3040
02:44:13,440 --> 02:44:15,920
Speaker 1: enough to Yeah. Well, no, it's a good analog. But

3041
02:44:15,959 --> 02:44:17,920
Speaker 1: it is interesting to note and that guy. What's interesting

3042
02:44:17,920 --> 02:44:20,640
Speaker 1: about that guy's um Well, of course his act was

3043
02:44:20,720 --> 02:44:23,760
Speaker 1: horrific and evil obvious, but he used a bunch of

3044
02:44:23,840 --> 02:44:26,879
Speaker 1: air fifteens with like shitty bump stocks, and he had

3045
02:44:26,920 --> 02:44:30,360
Speaker 1: planned something like this for years apparently, Yeah, Tanner right

3046
02:44:30,440 --> 02:44:33,640
Speaker 1: in the set up too, which is yeah, no one knows,

3047
02:44:33,680 --> 02:44:35,600
Speaker 1: I mean as we know, no one currently. I don't

3048
02:44:35,640 --> 02:44:37,440
Speaker 1: know anyone knows what his motivation was, at least it

3049
02:44:37,440 --> 02:44:40,480
Speaker 1: hasn't been released. But he had been planning something like

3050
02:44:40,520 --> 02:44:43,520
Speaker 1: this for a very long time. And what's ironic about

3051
02:44:43,520 --> 02:44:45,040
Speaker 1: that is that if he had bided his time he

3052
02:44:45,080 --> 02:44:48,440
Speaker 1: could have actually had a real select fire like belt

3053
02:44:48,440 --> 02:44:51,440
Speaker 1: fed machine gun. He just did a millionaire. Yeah he

3054
02:44:51,480 --> 02:44:54,520
Speaker 1: could have done that, and uh, um, this could but

3055
02:44:54,600 --> 02:44:57,600
Speaker 1: he just went with this bump stocks kind of garbage,

3056
02:44:57,840 --> 02:45:00,800
Speaker 1: which is weird. Um. That's a whole other topic, but

3057
02:45:00,879 --> 02:45:03,360
Speaker 1: it is and it it is like that is one

3058
02:45:03,400 --> 02:45:05,000
Speaker 1: of those cases when you talk to people in the

3059
02:45:05,160 --> 02:45:09,480
Speaker 1: right where it's like, after that shooting, Um, Donald Trump

3060
02:45:09,480 --> 02:45:13,119
Speaker 1: and his administration banned bump stocks. Um, which is more

3061
02:45:13,120 --> 02:45:14,879
Speaker 1: gun control than we got out of eight years of

3062
02:45:14,879 --> 02:45:17,879
Speaker 1: Obama's Like you know, oh boy, you point that out,

3063
02:45:17,879 --> 02:45:22,160
Speaker 1: at least on the center. In fact, um, Uh, there's

3064
02:45:22,200 --> 02:45:24,879
Speaker 1: always this narrative that you know, this political party will

3065
02:45:24,920 --> 02:45:27,400
Speaker 1: take your guns and this polaritically party waved. But the

3066
02:45:27,440 --> 02:45:30,920
Speaker 1: truth is, statistically and historically speaking, both tend to err

3067
02:45:30,959 --> 02:45:33,560
Speaker 1: on the side of trying to add more restrictions over time,

3068
02:45:33,800 --> 02:45:36,320
Speaker 1: Like if you do it over time, like Obama didn't.

3069
02:45:36,320 --> 02:45:37,960
Speaker 1: In fact of balla open things up. I think he

3070
02:45:38,000 --> 02:45:42,840
Speaker 1: liberalized h concealed carry of pistol or firearms in national parks.

3071
02:45:43,320 --> 02:45:46,160
Speaker 1: Actually he actually made guns a little easier to deal with. Um.

3072
02:45:46,200 --> 02:45:51,119
Speaker 1: But then via essentially executive order edict you've got Trump

3073
02:45:51,160 --> 02:45:53,920
Speaker 1: banning bump stocks, which, whether you like bump stocks or not,

3074
02:45:54,000 --> 02:45:56,560
Speaker 1: I think the way that went down is questionable legally speaking,

3075
02:45:56,560 --> 02:46:00,160
Speaker 1: but that's another topic. And and obviously bump stocks we're

3076
02:46:00,200 --> 02:46:04,760
Speaker 1: also somewhat questionable. They were speaking right right, totally totally,

3077
02:46:04,800 --> 02:46:07,360
Speaker 1: But but that's that's an interesting precedent with what he

3078
02:46:07,400 --> 02:46:11,280
Speaker 1: did was just like fiat edict um. But that that said,

3079
02:46:11,400 --> 02:46:15,840
Speaker 1: like historically, over time, there's always been more restrictions, not less,

3080
02:46:15,840 --> 02:46:18,039
Speaker 1: from both sides. And when you point that out, the

3081
02:46:18,080 --> 02:46:20,119
Speaker 1: people that just kind of drink the kool aid from

3082
02:46:20,120 --> 02:46:21,720
Speaker 1: one side or the other, I want to just re

3083
02:46:21,720 --> 02:46:24,440
Speaker 1: immediately knee jerk on you. And you're like, no, this

3084
02:46:24,520 --> 02:46:27,400
Speaker 1: is weird. This is coming from all directions really, Yeah,

3085
02:46:27,440 --> 02:46:29,240
Speaker 1: and I think it is. It is a big part

3086
02:46:29,240 --> 02:46:31,600
Speaker 1: of it is just that, like as a general rule,

3087
02:46:31,680 --> 02:46:34,360
Speaker 1: people who are rich and powerful do not want poor

3088
02:46:34,400 --> 02:46:37,600
Speaker 1: people to be armed. It doesn't tend to work out

3089
02:46:37,600 --> 02:46:39,840
Speaker 1: in their favor. The only time they want poor people

3090
02:46:39,959 --> 02:46:41,440
Speaker 1: armed is when they send them to a war they

3091
02:46:41,480 --> 02:46:45,920
Speaker 1: decided to have. Yeah, obviously the history of gun controls

3092
02:46:45,920 --> 02:46:49,600
Speaker 1: would have lay tied to racism and the Black Panthers

3093
02:46:49,840 --> 02:46:52,800
Speaker 1: and a little stuff around California's gun laws being started

3094
02:46:52,800 --> 02:46:56,160
Speaker 1: to curb black people from from owning fire arms, and

3095
02:46:56,240 --> 02:46:58,480
Speaker 1: so it would be we would be could argue in

3096
02:46:58,520 --> 02:47:01,480
Speaker 1: some ways that Reagan had a big role in inventing

3097
02:47:01,640 --> 02:47:04,200
Speaker 1: our modern concepts of like what gun control means and

3098
02:47:04,240 --> 02:47:06,760
Speaker 1: what kind of gun control laws like liberal states tend

3099
02:47:06,760 --> 02:47:09,480
Speaker 1: to go after on open carrying bands, on you know,

3100
02:47:09,560 --> 02:47:12,280
Speaker 1: concealed carrying of arms, that kind of stuff. Yeah, it's

3101
02:47:12,320 --> 02:47:15,560
Speaker 1: deeper than this, and there's always nuance to really hard right,

3102
02:47:15,600 --> 02:47:18,520
Speaker 1: but like, um, like California, which is kind of one

3103
02:47:18,520 --> 02:47:21,520
Speaker 1: of the flagship states of gun control. UM, and I

3104
02:47:21,560 --> 02:47:24,680
Speaker 1: think that their methods are bizarre to me and almost

3105
02:47:25,160 --> 02:47:29,480
Speaker 1: on not understandable. But like you talk about Reagan, pretty

3106
02:47:29,560 --> 02:47:31,280
Speaker 1: much they were like, guns are cool, and then the

3107
02:47:31,320 --> 02:47:33,720
Speaker 1: panthers walked around with some guns. Are like, whoa fucking

3108
02:47:34,879 --> 02:47:37,680
Speaker 1: we better do something. And uh. Of course, the the

3109
02:47:38,000 --> 02:47:40,520
Speaker 1: image of the panthers with their guns out walking down

3110
02:47:40,560 --> 02:47:44,640
Speaker 1: the street, which was their legal right, um, and it

3111
02:47:44,720 --> 02:47:48,879
Speaker 1: was brad and it motivated um of course a lot

3112
02:47:48,879 --> 02:47:51,039
Speaker 1: of things in California, which now we see where where

3113
02:47:51,040 --> 02:47:54,280
Speaker 1: that has led in California gun control laws UM has

3114
02:47:54,320 --> 02:47:56,320
Speaker 1: also changed the narrative for so many people that are

3115
02:47:56,400 --> 02:47:59,600
Speaker 1: unwilling to look at things from a truly broad historical

3116
02:47:59,640 --> 02:48:02,920
Speaker 1: perspect That's only one tiny thing the Black Panthers did,

3117
02:48:03,240 --> 02:48:05,840
Speaker 1: and the rest of their actions are so lost to

3118
02:48:05,959 --> 02:48:08,240
Speaker 1: just the pictures of them standing around them on car beings.

3119
02:48:08,440 --> 02:48:11,320
Speaker 1: And that's another example of leaving out, like the sin

3120
02:48:11,400 --> 02:48:13,520
Speaker 1: of a mission. We'll talk about one thing, but not

3121
02:48:13,600 --> 02:48:16,240
Speaker 1: the rest, and therefore the historical narrative is only one thing,

3122
02:48:17,000 --> 02:48:18,960
Speaker 1: and it is also there's a lesson in that for

3123
02:48:19,000 --> 02:48:21,200
Speaker 1: people who are on the left and who are advocates

3124
02:48:21,200 --> 02:48:25,520
Speaker 1: of gun ownership about what happens in terms of media

3125
02:48:25,560 --> 02:48:28,080
Speaker 1: and in terms of how your movement is thought about

3126
02:48:28,080 --> 02:48:30,840
Speaker 1: and remembered when guns are a part of it, Because

3127
02:48:30,879 --> 02:48:33,640
Speaker 1: that's always going to for a variety of reasons, and

3128
02:48:33,680 --> 02:48:36,000
Speaker 1: we can say a lot of those are very unreasonable reasons.

3129
02:48:36,440 --> 02:48:40,119
Speaker 1: But if you are a political group who is armed

3130
02:48:40,240 --> 02:48:43,360
Speaker 1: and makes that a visible part of your activism, that

3131
02:48:43,480 --> 02:48:45,879
Speaker 1: is going to really dominate a lot of conversations. It

3132
02:48:45,879 --> 02:48:47,560
Speaker 1: doesn't mean you shouldn't be, but it means you have

3133
02:48:47,680 --> 02:48:50,039
Speaker 1: to go into that understanding that like that's just how

3134
02:48:50,080 --> 02:48:52,960
Speaker 1: it works in this country. Yeah, you will immediately get

3135
02:48:53,240 --> 02:48:55,920
Speaker 1: you will immediately from at least some part of the perspective,

3136
02:48:56,000 --> 02:48:58,920
Speaker 1: whatever whatever side you're on, you will immediately get someone

3137
02:48:59,000 --> 02:49:03,000
Speaker 1: slinging like streamist militant at you. Yeah. But by the way,

3138
02:49:03,120 --> 02:49:04,600
Speaker 1: I mean, those are real things too. There are those.

3139
02:49:04,640 --> 02:49:07,119
Speaker 1: I'm not saying there aren't extremists. Yea, we talk about

3140
02:49:07,160 --> 02:49:09,200
Speaker 1: them all the time. Yeah, this country is full of them,

3141
02:49:09,200 --> 02:49:10,800
Speaker 1: as is the world. So that's not that's not an

3142
02:49:10,840 --> 02:49:14,280
Speaker 1: unreasonable thing that does exist. But the minute you go

3143
02:49:14,320 --> 02:49:16,800
Speaker 1: ahead and stand with that gun, you're gonna get that label,

3144
02:49:16,840 --> 02:49:19,920
Speaker 1: whether it's truly something you earned or not. There's a

3145
02:49:20,040 --> 02:49:23,200
Speaker 1: very deep conversation that we've talked about. We've had it

3146
02:49:23,360 --> 02:49:26,280
Speaker 1: in in pieces on this program and other shows that

3147
02:49:26,280 --> 02:49:31,720
Speaker 1: we've done on Cool Zone about like win makes sense

3148
02:49:31,920 --> 02:49:35,520
Speaker 1: to be openly armed and win makes sense to be

3149
02:49:35,560 --> 02:49:37,800
Speaker 1: openly armed as part of a group, because that is

3150
02:49:38,440 --> 02:49:41,680
Speaker 1: a very fraught question as like the what happened in

3151
02:49:41,680 --> 02:49:45,440
Speaker 1: the chas and made abundantly clear, but in you know,

3152
02:49:45,480 --> 02:49:48,080
Speaker 1: a bunch of cases Kyle Rittenhouse and whatnot. There's a

3153
02:49:48,080 --> 02:49:52,840
Speaker 1: ton of different reasons why choosing to be openly armed. Um,

3154
02:49:52,879 --> 02:49:54,520
Speaker 1: there's a debate to be had about like how that

3155
02:49:54,600 --> 02:49:58,080
Speaker 1: influences everyone around you had, that influences influences the demonstration.

3156
02:49:58,160 --> 02:50:00,720
Speaker 1: And I've seen and heard it used in in good

3157
02:50:00,760 --> 02:50:03,600
Speaker 1: ways in an irresponsible ways. I've seen people carrying guns

3158
02:50:03,640 --> 02:50:06,240
Speaker 1: at political events in order to intimidate others. I've also

3159
02:50:06,280 --> 02:50:09,879
Speaker 1: seen people carrying guns at political events to create essentially

3160
02:50:09,959 --> 02:50:11,800
Speaker 1: a buffer where it's like, Okay, there's going to be

3161
02:50:11,840 --> 02:50:14,000
Speaker 1: people fighting at this event. There's going to be clashes.

3162
02:50:14,320 --> 02:50:16,320
Speaker 1: If we're standing here as a group with guns, there's

3163
02:50:16,360 --> 02:50:18,400
Speaker 1: a place people can run back to and the fighting

3164
02:50:18,440 --> 02:50:21,119
Speaker 1: won't continue because nobody wants to push that. And that's yeah,

3165
02:50:21,160 --> 02:50:23,760
Speaker 1: without talking about specifics of intent in any of those

3166
02:50:23,760 --> 02:50:26,840
Speaker 1: situations you already talked about because I can't, but yeah,

3167
02:50:26,879 --> 02:50:28,920
Speaker 1: I think I think it does, Like it always comes

3168
02:50:28,920 --> 02:50:32,160
Speaker 1: back to this thing of intent. Right. So to me, um,

3169
02:50:32,240 --> 02:50:35,120
Speaker 1: you're right for the firearm, absolutely true, regardless, like even

3170
02:50:35,160 --> 02:50:36,680
Speaker 1: if I disagree with you, this is a right, like

3171
02:50:36,680 --> 02:50:38,600
Speaker 1: we said, it's protected like the First Amendment, it's the

3172
02:50:38,640 --> 02:50:42,959
Speaker 1: second um. But I think the problem starts to come

3173
02:50:43,000 --> 02:50:47,240
Speaker 1: when you've decided to bring the firearm solely for the

3174
02:50:47,280 --> 02:50:50,880
Speaker 1: intended purpose of intimidation, Like that's that's where I start

3175
02:50:50,920 --> 02:50:53,840
Speaker 1: getting like this is this is a troubling right. But

3176
02:50:53,879 --> 02:50:56,520
Speaker 1: if you're bringing it for personal defense or community defense,

3177
02:50:56,920 --> 02:51:00,600
Speaker 1: or there's a need because your community is really at risk.

3178
02:51:00,640 --> 02:51:02,440
Speaker 1: I mean one of the examples of a civil rights

3179
02:51:02,440 --> 02:51:04,600
Speaker 1: one was this is some someday I'll do a video

3180
02:51:04,600 --> 02:51:07,360
Speaker 1: about this. A community knew that the clan was coming

3181
02:51:07,400 --> 02:51:10,200
Speaker 1: to intimidate them, and they armed up with surplus m

3182
02:51:10,200 --> 02:51:14,080
Speaker 1: one garren's and steel pot helmets, literally dug fighting positions

3183
02:51:14,200 --> 02:51:16,920
Speaker 1: and fought them off. The clan ran for their lives.

3184
02:51:16,920 --> 02:51:19,360
Speaker 1: No one was killed, but they literally used m one

3185
02:51:19,480 --> 02:51:24,160
Speaker 1: grands to uh to stop the clan from manfiltrating their community. Um,

3186
02:51:24,200 --> 02:51:26,440
Speaker 1: that was not used as a weapon of intimidation. It

3187
02:51:26,480 --> 02:51:29,080
Speaker 1: was used as a weapon of community defense. I think

3188
02:51:29,080 --> 02:51:34,760
Speaker 1: that's intent goes everywhere. Yeah, that's fucking dope too. Um

3189
02:51:34,840 --> 02:51:41,640
Speaker 1: and yeah, I uh, I think um one thing that

3190
02:51:41,640 --> 02:51:47,320
Speaker 1: that that kind of I think there's a conversation that

3191
02:51:47,360 --> 02:51:49,640
Speaker 1: needs to be had when we start talking about when

3192
02:51:49,760 --> 02:51:52,080
Speaker 1: is reasonable and what situations are reasonable to carry a

3193
02:51:52,120 --> 02:51:57,280
Speaker 1: gun opener concealed about also what should be carried. Um,

3194
02:51:57,320 --> 02:51:59,920
Speaker 1: I've certainly seen because I don't I think that the

3195
02:52:00,000 --> 02:52:03,080
Speaker 1: most harmful thing is certainly people carrying gun to intimidate.

3196
02:52:03,080 --> 02:52:05,760
Speaker 1: I've also seen people carry guns as a fashion statement,

3197
02:52:06,160 --> 02:52:08,920
Speaker 1: which is not the same thing but as bad. For example,

3198
02:52:09,000 --> 02:52:11,960
Speaker 1: people on the left people at a protests bringing a

3199
02:52:12,000 --> 02:52:14,959
Speaker 1: loaded mosen um too, because it was the gun the

3200
02:52:14,959 --> 02:52:17,360
Speaker 1: communists used, which is like, you don't you don't want

3201
02:52:17,400 --> 02:52:20,400
Speaker 1: to be in a firefight in a dense urban environment

3202
02:52:20,600 --> 02:52:28,280
Speaker 1: with a mos in negat did you bring? It is

3203
02:52:28,320 --> 02:52:31,320
Speaker 1: a gun that doesn't function without a sizeable hammer, you know.

3204
02:52:35,000 --> 02:52:37,760
Speaker 1: And of course people on like I remember outside of

3205
02:52:37,760 --> 02:52:39,959
Speaker 1: this anti mask rally, these two guys who are up

3206
02:52:39,959 --> 02:52:41,480
Speaker 1: and carrying a RS, one of whom had an a

3207
02:52:41,640 --> 02:52:44,040
Speaker 1: r tin with with a hundred round drum was talking

3208
02:52:44,040 --> 02:52:45,879
Speaker 1: about it. We had like four hundreds something rounds on

3209
02:52:45,959 --> 02:52:48,440
Speaker 1: him and it was like and in case stuff pops off,

3210
02:52:48,480 --> 02:52:52,640
Speaker 1: and it's like, what are you? Number one? Like, if

3211
02:52:52,640 --> 02:52:54,959
Speaker 1: you're talking like that, you've spent no time thinking about

3212
02:52:55,000 --> 02:52:58,280
Speaker 1: what actually happens in the situations in public areas in

3213
02:52:58,280 --> 02:53:01,000
Speaker 1: which gunfights occur, But because none of them that have

3214
02:53:01,080 --> 02:53:03,280
Speaker 1: happened in any time in the recent future have involved

3215
02:53:03,280 --> 02:53:06,720
Speaker 1: people needing to four hundred rounds of ammunition or or

3216
02:53:06,800 --> 02:53:09,480
Speaker 1: drum magazines or whatever like you are. You are not

3217
02:53:09,600 --> 02:53:12,959
Speaker 1: in Fallujah, you are in Salem, Oregon. Um. The extent

3218
02:53:13,040 --> 02:53:16,520
Speaker 1: to which a firearm can be useful for uh self defense,

3219
02:53:16,520 --> 02:53:19,560
Speaker 1: and that does not like bragging about the number of

3220
02:53:19,560 --> 02:53:22,360
Speaker 1: bullets you have is just like weird and gross. You

3221
02:53:22,400 --> 02:53:24,279
Speaker 1: know this is gonna come off maybe a little strange

3222
02:53:24,360 --> 02:53:26,480
Speaker 1: or even counterintuitive. But when I hear someone like that

3223
02:53:26,520 --> 02:53:28,720
Speaker 1: at what you just described in that particular person. First

3224
02:53:28,760 --> 02:53:30,680
Speaker 1: of all, that guns barrel would burst in four and

3225
02:53:30,760 --> 02:53:33,080
Speaker 1: a rounds, but that's a whole another topic probably, But

3226
02:53:33,160 --> 02:53:37,760
Speaker 1: that said, UM, when I hear that, I almost have like, um,

3227
02:53:37,760 --> 02:53:39,879
Speaker 1: it's kind of sad because the reason that's sad is

3228
02:53:39,920 --> 02:53:42,120
Speaker 1: that person is doing that one because they've been sold

3229
02:53:42,160 --> 02:53:44,879
Speaker 1: the idea, but the firearms and talisman like that. To me,

3230
02:53:45,120 --> 02:53:48,400
Speaker 1: that person is acting like that's a talisman. Secondarily, the

3231
02:53:48,480 --> 02:53:50,480
Speaker 1: reason they have four in a rounds is because they've

3232
02:53:50,520 --> 02:53:54,400
Speaker 1: been sold a pretty big bill of fear. And that's

3233
02:53:54,440 --> 02:53:58,920
Speaker 1: that's sad for anyone to live a life based on fear. Yeah, yeah,

3234
02:53:58,920 --> 02:54:01,800
Speaker 1: I would agree with that, And I really, um, do

3235
02:54:01,840 --> 02:54:04,080
Speaker 1: you have anything else you wanted to get into and this, uh,

3236
02:54:04,120 --> 02:54:06,680
Speaker 1: this conversation, well, I don't know. I mean we're just

3237
02:54:06,680 --> 02:54:09,400
Speaker 1: here to talk about like community. I just I think

3238
02:54:09,400 --> 02:54:11,920
Speaker 1: one thing that's really important and it's something that UM

3239
02:54:13,480 --> 02:54:15,440
Speaker 1: is a positive and I'm happy to see this is

3240
02:54:15,520 --> 02:54:17,440
Speaker 1: that it was kind of a happy accident with my work.

3241
02:54:17,480 --> 02:54:19,199
Speaker 1: I didn't even think about it. It It is hard to happen,

3242
02:54:19,640 --> 02:54:22,039
Speaker 1: but this is a much the people people that love,

3243
02:54:22,879 --> 02:54:25,440
Speaker 1: first of all, just the sport. There's a lot of us.

3244
02:54:25,480 --> 02:54:27,800
Speaker 1: There's a lot of us of all spectrums across the

3245
02:54:27,800 --> 02:54:30,720
Speaker 1: board UM. People that believe in the right from the

3246
02:54:30,760 --> 02:54:34,840
Speaker 1: person purposes of personal defense and community defense there across

3247
02:54:34,879 --> 02:54:37,199
Speaker 1: the board. And I think that one of the things

3248
02:54:37,200 --> 02:54:39,560
Speaker 1: that we need to do is not let the narrative

3249
02:54:39,640 --> 02:54:42,840
Speaker 1: be only one, which is we see so much of

3250
02:54:43,160 --> 02:54:47,280
Speaker 1: UM very much just like right wing I'm gonna usually

3251
02:54:47,320 --> 02:54:51,400
Speaker 1: say Christian white males need like completely dominating this conversation

3252
02:54:51,760 --> 02:54:54,160
Speaker 1: as though, and they think they owe as a result

3253
02:54:54,320 --> 02:54:57,720
Speaker 1: own the space. Now it would be in their interest too,

3254
02:54:57,840 --> 02:55:00,920
Speaker 1: from the perspective of preserving fire and rights, to be

3255
02:55:00,959 --> 02:55:03,359
Speaker 1: inclusive and have everyone that believes in that a particular

3256
02:55:03,440 --> 02:55:06,200
Speaker 1: thing work together to make sure we don't lose a right,

3257
02:55:06,200 --> 02:55:09,760
Speaker 1: because the right unexercised is lost right. So even if

3258
02:55:09,760 --> 02:55:12,000
Speaker 1: I disagree with you on economic policy, but we agree

3259
02:55:12,040 --> 02:55:14,840
Speaker 1: on firearms rights. We have an agreement there, and that

3260
02:55:14,920 --> 02:55:17,520
Speaker 1: makes us somehow interestingly in the same space. We have

3261
02:55:17,600 --> 02:55:20,879
Speaker 1: something in common versus something diversive, and I think that

3262
02:55:20,959 --> 02:55:23,040
Speaker 1: part of the conversation, at least within reason. I mean,

3263
02:55:23,040 --> 02:55:25,480
Speaker 1: there are people that are legitimately dangerous, you don't negotiate

3264
02:55:25,520 --> 02:55:28,800
Speaker 1: with them, but within reason, like agreeing on that topic

3265
02:55:28,840 --> 02:55:31,000
Speaker 1: means well, we've got something in common here. There's probably

3266
02:55:31,040 --> 02:55:33,320
Speaker 1: other things too, and maybe that could be a place

3267
02:55:33,320 --> 02:55:35,600
Speaker 1: where we kind of try to make that conversation better,

3268
02:55:35,720 --> 02:55:40,280
Speaker 1: not worse. And so by being more open inclusive and saying, hey,

3269
02:55:40,280 --> 02:55:42,120
Speaker 1: there's people here and people there and here we are

3270
02:55:42,160 --> 02:55:46,120
Speaker 1: all together doing this together. Um, perhaps conversation can be

3271
02:55:46,160 --> 02:55:48,040
Speaker 1: had that's better than what we've been having. Maybe it

3272
02:55:48,120 --> 02:55:53,720
Speaker 1: can be actually a community builder versus a community destroyer. Yeah, yeah,

3273
02:55:53,760 --> 02:55:56,760
Speaker 1: I would like to see that. Um well, I think

3274
02:55:56,760 --> 02:55:58,680
Speaker 1: that's as good a note as any to uh to

3275
02:55:58,760 --> 02:56:01,000
Speaker 1: close out on car You wanna you want to throw

3276
02:56:01,040 --> 02:56:04,280
Speaker 1: your plug ables up before we were right out of here? Yeah, sure,

3277
02:56:04,360 --> 02:56:06,080
Speaker 1: I mean so I run in range TV. You can

3278
02:56:06,160 --> 02:56:09,959
Speaker 1: find me an in range dot TV, um completely viewer

3279
02:56:10,000 --> 02:56:11,920
Speaker 1: supported like I said, I don't wanty sponsors or anything

3280
02:56:11,959 --> 02:56:14,000
Speaker 1: I like. I like the idea of the people liking

3281
02:56:14,040 --> 02:56:16,440
Speaker 1: watching it support it. So if you like it cool,

3282
02:56:16,520 --> 02:56:19,520
Speaker 1: come check it out all over the place. YouTube bit

3283
02:56:19,600 --> 02:56:23,000
Speaker 1: shoot decentralized video contrat distributions another thing I believe in

3284
02:56:23,040 --> 02:56:26,640
Speaker 1: strong would the corporate oligarchy. But yeah, come out. If

3285
02:56:26,680 --> 02:56:28,560
Speaker 1: you want to have a little bit different take on

3286
02:56:28,560 --> 02:56:30,359
Speaker 1: fire and stuff, or you're just in in the confluence

3287
02:56:30,400 --> 02:56:32,960
Speaker 1: of civil rights and guns and stuff, come check out

3288
02:56:33,000 --> 02:56:36,080
Speaker 1: in Range TV. I'd appreciate I always appreciate new viewers,

3289
02:56:36,080 --> 02:56:41,039
Speaker 1: and thanks for checking it out. Awesome, all right, um, yeah,

3290
02:56:41,320 --> 02:56:45,879
Speaker 1: check out in Range TV, and uh check us out somewhere.

3291
02:56:46,400 --> 02:56:48,920
Speaker 1: We won't tell you where, but you can find us

3292
02:56:48,920 --> 02:56:58,440
Speaker 1: if you keep us in your hearts. What grows in

3293
02:56:58,480 --> 02:57:01,840
Speaker 1: the forest trees, Sure you know what else? Girls in

3294
02:57:01,920 --> 02:57:05,760
Speaker 1: the forest, Our imagination, our sense of wonder, and our

3295
02:57:05,800 --> 02:57:09,039
Speaker 1: family bonds grow too, because when we disconnect from this

3296
02:57:11,520 --> 02:57:16,160
Speaker 1: and connect with this, we reconnect with each other. The

3297
02:57:16,240 --> 02:57:19,280
Speaker 1: forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near

3298
02:57:19,320 --> 02:57:22,560
Speaker 1: you and start exploring. I Discover the Forest dot Org.

3299
02:57:22,879 --> 02:57:25,440
Speaker 1: Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and

3300
02:57:25,520 --> 02:57:28,800
Speaker 1: the AD Council Hello, and welcome to our show. I'm

3301
02:57:28,920 --> 02:57:31,200
Speaker 1: Zoe de Chanel and I'm so excited to be joined

3302
02:57:31,200 --> 02:57:33,880
Speaker 1: by my friends and cast meetes Hannah Simone and Lamar

3303
02:57:33,920 --> 02:57:37,320
Speaker 1: and Morris to recap our hit television series New Girl.

3304
02:57:37,640 --> 02:57:40,519
Speaker 1: Join us every Monday on the Welcome to Our Show podcast,

3305
02:57:40,600 --> 02:57:43,120
Speaker 1: where we'll share behind the scenes stories of your favorite

3306
02:57:43,120 --> 02:57:46,120
Speaker 1: New Girl episodes, reveal the truth behind the legendary game

3307
02:57:46,120 --> 02:57:49,520
Speaker 1: True American, and discuss how this show got made with

3308
02:57:49,560 --> 02:57:52,199
Speaker 1: the writer's, guest stars and directors who made the show

3309
02:57:52,200 --> 02:57:54,680
Speaker 1: so special. Fans have been begging us to do a

3310
02:57:54,680 --> 02:57:57,440
Speaker 1: New Girl recap for years, and we finally meet a

3311
02:57:57,440 --> 02:58:00,440
Speaker 1: podcast where we answer all your burning question is like

3312
02:58:01,120 --> 02:58:04,080
Speaker 1: is there really a bear? In every episode of New Girl?

3313
02:58:04,480 --> 02:58:08,400
Speaker 1: Plus each week you'll hear hilarious stories like this at

3314
02:58:08,440 --> 02:58:10,280
Speaker 1: the end when he says you got some schmid on

3315
02:58:10,320 --> 02:58:13,200
Speaker 1: your face. I feel like I pitched that job. I

3316
02:58:13,240 --> 02:58:14,920
Speaker 1: believe that I feel like I did. I'm not on

3317
02:58:14,959 --> 02:58:16,880
Speaker 1: a thousand percent. I want to say that was I

3318
02:58:17,240 --> 02:58:19,400
Speaker 1: tossed that one out. Listen to the Welcome to Our

3319
02:58:19,440 --> 02:58:22,760
Speaker 1: Show podcast on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,

3320
02:58:22,959 --> 02:58:32,760
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. So I Burnett X.

3321
02:58:34,360 --> 02:58:37,120
Speaker 1: All right, this is this is me Christopher Wong, realizing

3322
02:58:37,120 --> 02:58:40,679
Speaker 1: that I have done like sixteen consecutive actual real introductions

3323
02:58:40,680 --> 02:58:42,720
Speaker 1: and that if I keep doing them, everyone's gonna expect

3324
02:58:42,760 --> 02:58:44,720
Speaker 1: that I do a real introduction every time instead of

3325
02:58:45,120 --> 02:58:49,040
Speaker 1: like randomly yelling something. So yeah, well, welcome to it

3326
02:58:49,080 --> 02:58:51,280
Speaker 1: could happen here. I am trying to make my job

3327
02:58:52,520 --> 02:58:57,720
Speaker 1: function as it should and not professionalize it. Um and

3328
02:58:57,959 --> 02:59:01,480
Speaker 1: this is this is a podcast about beings that are bad,

3329
02:59:02,080 --> 02:59:04,440
Speaker 1: but it's also occasionally a podcast about things that are

3330
02:59:04,480 --> 02:59:07,800
Speaker 1: good and how, in fact, there can be a society

3331
02:59:07,800 --> 02:59:11,160
Speaker 1: beyond this one, and to talk about some of the

3332
02:59:11,160 --> 02:59:13,240
Speaker 1: shades of what that could look like. I have with

3333
02:59:13,280 --> 02:59:16,240
Speaker 1: me the co host of the General Intellect Unit Kyle

3334
02:59:16,280 --> 02:59:19,240
Speaker 1: and June, which is a podcast on the Emancipation Network.

3335
02:59:19,280 --> 02:59:22,080
Speaker 1: That is I to this is the tagline the podcast

3336
02:59:22,080 --> 02:59:26,680
Speaker 1: of the Cybernetic Marxists. I am. I am very excited. Yeah,

3337
02:59:26,800 --> 02:59:30,039
Speaker 1: so it's really exciting to be here. Absolutely, thank you

3338
02:59:30,080 --> 02:59:33,959
Speaker 1: for coming on. Um yeah, I guess okay, we should

3339
02:59:34,000 --> 02:59:39,600
Speaker 1: start at the the very very beginning, because I don't

3340
02:59:39,600 --> 02:59:46,520
Speaker 1: think most people know any of this. What is cybernetics, right? Um, so,

3341
02:59:46,640 --> 02:59:52,160
Speaker 1: cybernetics is I guess a term that comes from what

3342
02:59:52,320 --> 02:59:57,480
Speaker 1: is it the Kaibernetes right, steering, uh, the idea of

3343
02:59:57,560 --> 03:00:02,680
Speaker 1: steering a boat um, so using your ore to navigate

3344
03:00:02,760 --> 03:00:09,920
Speaker 1: the waters. Um. And so essentially it is a science

3345
03:00:10,200 --> 03:00:15,560
Speaker 1: of control. And that sounds really scary, but what it

3346
03:00:15,680 --> 03:00:22,000
Speaker 1: means is that it's that kind of connection between the

3347
03:00:22,120 --> 03:00:29,480
Speaker 1: steers person, the oar, the boat, their body and the

3348
03:00:29,560 --> 03:00:34,640
Speaker 1: water around them and getting all of those things in

3349
03:00:34,879 --> 03:00:39,720
Speaker 1: sync in such a way that the steers person is

3350
03:00:39,760 --> 03:00:41,920
Speaker 1: going where they want to go, the ship or the

3351
03:00:41,920 --> 03:00:47,000
Speaker 1: boat doesn't capsize and they don't lose the ore um.

3352
03:00:47,520 --> 03:00:52,680
Speaker 1: And so that's what control means. It's a kind of balancing,

3353
03:00:53,520 --> 03:01:00,400
Speaker 1: a kind of connection between the organism and the ironment

3354
03:01:00,640 --> 03:01:04,520
Speaker 1: in such a way that it can survive and thrive. Yeah,

3355
03:01:04,520 --> 03:01:08,040
Speaker 1: and that's what cybernexs is focused on. Yeah. The thing

3356
03:01:08,080 --> 03:01:11,400
Speaker 1: I love about them, the steersman metaphor is that like

3357
03:01:11,560 --> 03:01:14,480
Speaker 1: it's all about it's control in the sense of regulation,

3358
03:01:14,560 --> 03:01:18,040
Speaker 1: but also like very importantly in cybernetics, it's almost always

3359
03:01:18,080 --> 03:01:22,080
Speaker 1: self regulation um because like the one of the kind

3360
03:01:22,080 --> 03:01:27,360
Speaker 1: of core principles. Again, like the because the term usually

3361
03:01:27,360 --> 03:01:30,000
Speaker 1: calls to mind this like kind of terminator like UM

3362
03:01:30,840 --> 03:01:34,320
Speaker 1: like cybergothic kind of domination. It's actually not what the

3363
03:01:34,680 --> 03:01:37,320
Speaker 1: field is about at all. It's UM because one of

3364
03:01:37,360 --> 03:01:39,640
Speaker 1: the core insights of cybernetics is actually that any given

3365
03:01:39,680 --> 03:01:43,520
Speaker 1: system UM, the only thing that can really control it

3366
03:01:43,600 --> 03:01:46,959
Speaker 1: is itself because of the sheer complexity of systems. So

3367
03:01:47,040 --> 03:01:51,960
Speaker 1: that like UM, like the kind of like top down

3368
03:01:52,000 --> 03:01:54,640
Speaker 1: external domination of an organism that we all fear is

3369
03:01:54,720 --> 03:01:56,000
Speaker 1: kind of like actually, if you look at the cyber

3370
03:01:56,040 --> 03:02:00,400
Speaker 1: cyberanetics literature, that's not not actually really possible because the

3371
03:02:00,400 --> 03:02:03,320
Speaker 1: the the the external controller would never have enough complexity

3372
03:02:03,360 --> 03:02:07,520
Speaker 1: to match what the organism is capable of. UM. And

3373
03:02:07,840 --> 03:02:12,760
Speaker 1: you know, organisms are self regulating systems. The steersman with

3374
03:02:12,800 --> 03:02:15,359
Speaker 1: his boat is a self regulating system that like regulates

3375
03:02:15,440 --> 03:02:18,960
Speaker 1: its upright position in the water and regulates its course

3376
03:02:19,080 --> 03:02:23,200
Speaker 1: that's directed towards its goal. UM. So it's it's that's

3377
03:02:23,200 --> 03:02:25,320
Speaker 1: why it's so important. I think that's why we think

3378
03:02:25,360 --> 03:02:28,640
Speaker 1: it's so important for the left and like people who

3379
03:02:28,640 --> 03:02:31,600
Speaker 1: are concerned with these like you know, visions of a

3380
03:02:32,560 --> 03:02:35,560
Speaker 1: politics of autonomy and liberation that really need to look

3381
03:02:35,560 --> 03:02:37,160
Speaker 1: at this stuff, because it turns out there kind of

3382
03:02:37,240 --> 03:02:41,240
Speaker 1: is a science of like autonomous self guiding organic systems.

3383
03:02:41,520 --> 03:02:46,959
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, no terminator here, yes, and yeah, I

3384
03:02:47,000 --> 03:02:52,240
Speaker 1: mean you know when you see uh, scary videos of

3385
03:02:52,360 --> 03:02:58,600
Speaker 1: militarized robots and they're learning to you know, jump and

3386
03:02:58,920 --> 03:03:03,240
Speaker 1: fire weapons ends and all that kind of stuff. There

3387
03:03:03,240 --> 03:03:08,320
Speaker 1: certainly is cybernetics involved there, but that is a kind

3388
03:03:08,360 --> 03:03:13,959
Speaker 1: of domain application of cybernetics. Rather than defining what cybernetics is,

3389
03:03:14,080 --> 03:03:18,440
Speaker 1: it's really kind of holistic systems thinking in general is

3390
03:03:18,480 --> 03:03:22,360
Speaker 1: what cybernetics is. Yeah, yeah, that that's that. That's that's

3391
03:03:22,360 --> 03:03:26,400
Speaker 1: probably worth emphasizing, right that, Like um, um, cybernetics in

3392
03:03:26,400 --> 03:03:29,640
Speaker 1: some ways is kind of like out of fashion these days,

3393
03:03:29,640 --> 03:03:33,800
Speaker 1: like it kind of evolved into systems thinking and like, um,

3394
03:03:33,840 --> 03:03:35,280
Speaker 1: I guess a lot of its lessons got kind of

3395
03:03:35,280 --> 03:03:38,720
Speaker 1: absorbed in general. But we find there's great value in

3396
03:03:38,800 --> 03:03:41,240
Speaker 1: going back to them, the kind of originators and like

3397
03:03:41,640 --> 03:03:45,720
Speaker 1: focusing on that field. It's like we on the show,

3398
03:03:45,760 --> 03:03:49,520
Speaker 1: we got into the cybernetics angle by reading Andrew Pickering

3399
03:03:50,280 --> 03:03:53,039
Speaker 1: in his book The Cybernetic Brain, in which um, he

3400
03:03:53,120 --> 03:03:55,280
Speaker 1: kind of acknowledged that like there's he kind of split

3401
03:03:55,320 --> 03:03:58,360
Speaker 1: it intoo, like there's American cybernetics like which had that

3402
03:03:58,440 --> 03:04:02,240
Speaker 1: kind of like um dour kind of military domination sort

3403
03:04:02,240 --> 03:04:03,959
Speaker 1: of flavor to it. That like it's kind of an

3404
03:04:04,000 --> 03:04:06,879
Speaker 1: earned reputation there. But Pickering was more concerned with like

3405
03:04:06,879 --> 03:04:09,720
Speaker 1: British cybernetics, Um, it's like a lot of British thinkers

3406
03:04:10,000 --> 03:04:12,480
Speaker 1: that and it had a very different flavor there where

3407
03:04:12,480 --> 03:04:14,800
Speaker 1: it was more open ended. It was kind of had

3408
03:04:14,800 --> 03:04:16,800
Speaker 1: more of a focus on kind of liberation than like

3409
03:04:17,480 --> 03:04:19,760
Speaker 1: politics and stuff. And in fact, some of those like

3410
03:04:19,879 --> 03:04:23,240
Speaker 1: Gray Walter was like explicitly an anarchist, like wrote in

3411
03:04:23,280 --> 03:04:26,680
Speaker 1: Anarchist UM like journals and stuff like that, um. And

3412
03:04:26,720 --> 03:04:29,760
Speaker 1: for him, like those two things went hand in glove

3413
03:04:29,879 --> 03:04:35,240
Speaker 1: right like that, like um liberatory politics as like um,

3414
03:04:35,400 --> 03:04:38,680
Speaker 1: the politics of like human flourishing, like as human human

3415
03:04:38,680 --> 03:04:42,280
Speaker 1: beings as autonomous units flourishing in their own contexts, and

3416
03:04:42,480 --> 03:04:45,320
Speaker 1: of like social systems that would enable that kind of flourishing.

3417
03:04:45,800 --> 03:04:47,720
Speaker 1: To him, that was just hand in glove with cybernetics.

3418
03:04:47,760 --> 03:04:49,920
Speaker 1: There was no real distinction there. It was just like, yeah,

3419
03:04:49,959 --> 03:04:52,959
Speaker 1: these these two things fit each other perfectly, which you

3420
03:04:53,040 --> 03:04:56,760
Speaker 1: lose later with like general systems theory sort of stuff.

3421
03:04:56,800 --> 03:04:59,400
Speaker 1: You know, it's like there's there's plenty. I don't know

3422
03:04:59,480 --> 03:05:03,280
Speaker 1: whom I think here like them like the Tally, that

3423
03:05:03,360 --> 03:05:05,680
Speaker 1: guy with the like black swansor to stuff like he's

3424
03:05:05,879 --> 03:05:09,400
Speaker 1: biggest system and stuff. But like isn't so much um

3425
03:05:09,560 --> 03:05:11,920
Speaker 1: isn't so much into the libratory politics. I guess you know,

3426
03:05:12,320 --> 03:05:14,080
Speaker 1: a lot of that angle is kind of lost. Yeah,

3427
03:05:14,080 --> 03:05:15,879
Speaker 1: And I think this is awesome. This is you know,

3428
03:05:15,879 --> 03:05:18,560
Speaker 1: this is sort of a product of, I guess, the

3429
03:05:18,800 --> 03:05:22,360
Speaker 1: broader ideological course that's going on while such a cyberie

3430
03:05:22,400 --> 03:05:25,080
Speaker 1: comes in and out of fashion. I think I think

3431
03:05:25,120 --> 03:05:28,080
Speaker 1: we should go back a bit to the begetting to

3432
03:05:28,120 --> 03:05:31,720
Speaker 1: sort of situate this because I know, like when I

3433
03:05:32,080 --> 03:05:34,760
Speaker 1: like before I ever did any reading, What's ever next,

3434
03:05:34,840 --> 03:05:36,800
Speaker 1: Like my immediate assumption was that it was it was

3435
03:05:36,840 --> 03:05:38,440
Speaker 1: you know, this, this is the thing that was entirely

3436
03:05:38,520 --> 03:05:41,240
Speaker 1: just based off of computers, right that this is like

3437
03:05:41,520 --> 03:05:46,440
Speaker 1: this is and that's not really true from might understandtanding

3438
03:05:46,400 --> 03:05:48,119
Speaker 1: of us. Can we go back and sort of like

3439
03:05:49,080 --> 03:05:51,760
Speaker 1: talk about where this came from a bit and how

3440
03:05:51,800 --> 03:05:56,640
Speaker 1: it's sort of moves over this over sert of the

3441
03:05:56,640 --> 03:06:01,720
Speaker 1: sexes and yeah, go from there. Yeah, I think you

3442
03:06:01,760 --> 03:06:06,640
Speaker 1: can kind of trace it back in it's sort of

3443
03:06:07,600 --> 03:06:15,800
Speaker 1: European origins to UM. You could probably say Hagel, Uh,

3444
03:06:16,120 --> 03:06:22,080
Speaker 1: you know his his move towards like UM understanding being

3445
03:06:22,160 --> 03:06:25,920
Speaker 1: not just as substance but as subject I think is

3446
03:06:26,320 --> 03:06:29,879
Speaker 1: a move towards a kind of cybernetic understanding where you

3447
03:06:30,000 --> 03:06:38,640
Speaker 1: understand the whole system as a holistic entity as opposed

3448
03:06:38,680 --> 03:06:45,640
Speaker 1: to just an individual interacting with an external environment. UM.

3449
03:06:46,040 --> 03:06:49,879
Speaker 1: And you can also see this come up in say

3450
03:06:51,760 --> 03:06:57,400
Speaker 1: there was a ecologist X skill in the German ecologists

3451
03:06:57,720 --> 03:07:01,400
Speaker 1: in the early twentieth century, I believe, who was trying

3452
03:07:01,440 --> 03:07:06,120
Speaker 1: to understand, you know, the organism in its environment. Uh.

3453
03:07:06,240 --> 03:07:09,800
Speaker 1: The sort of precursors to ecology can be seen as

3454
03:07:09,840 --> 03:07:15,800
Speaker 1: precursors to cybernetics UM. And then when you get to

3455
03:07:17,040 --> 03:07:22,120
Speaker 1: the kind of development of cybernetics as a science or

3456
03:07:22,160 --> 03:07:28,200
Speaker 1: as a discipline UM in the mid twentieth century, it's

3457
03:07:28,320 --> 03:07:37,080
Speaker 1: not exactly about computing it's UM. It's more about balancing

3458
03:07:37,360 --> 03:07:42,160
Speaker 1: a machine with its environment. So UM. The sort of

3459
03:07:42,320 --> 03:07:49,720
Speaker 1: prototypical UM machine of this kind was the servo mechanism,

3460
03:07:49,760 --> 03:07:55,400
Speaker 1: which was used to help guide a like an anti

3461
03:07:55,440 --> 03:08:00,520
Speaker 1: aircraft gun in shooting down enemy aircraft. So making sure

3462
03:08:00,560 --> 03:08:04,400
Speaker 1: it tracks properly with the target, it doesn't lose the target,

3463
03:08:04,800 --> 03:08:10,080
Speaker 1: and is assisting the operator in operating the gun instead

3464
03:08:10,240 --> 03:08:17,320
Speaker 1: of just being a inanimate object that has trouble tracking

3465
03:08:17,360 --> 03:08:20,240
Speaker 1: what it's a very fast moving target. I mean, you

3466
03:08:20,240 --> 03:08:23,120
Speaker 1: can even think back to like the you know, in

3467
03:08:23,160 --> 03:08:26,520
Speaker 1: World War One when they discovered, hey, we could actually

3468
03:08:26,560 --> 03:08:29,560
Speaker 1: like synchronize the timing of the propeller and the timing

3469
03:08:29,600 --> 03:08:32,080
Speaker 1: of our gun on the front of this plane so

3470
03:08:32,120 --> 03:08:35,600
Speaker 1: that our guns aren't destroying our propellers and shooting and

3471
03:08:35,640 --> 03:08:38,920
Speaker 1: we're we're we're shooting our own planes down with our

3472
03:08:38,959 --> 03:08:44,879
Speaker 1: guns when we're dog fighting, right, Like It's yeah, that's

3473
03:08:44,879 --> 03:08:48,920
Speaker 1: the system's understanding, right. So that's um, that's that's Norbert

3474
03:08:49,000 --> 03:08:52,000
Speaker 1: Leonard Rice and working on the m automated gun turret stuff.

3475
03:08:52,000 --> 03:08:56,080
Speaker 1: And that's he coins the term cybernetics to like um

3476
03:08:56,120 --> 03:08:58,520
Speaker 1: given name to the thing he was starting to discover.

3477
03:08:58,640 --> 03:09:00,120
Speaker 1: And it's like he was kind of pulling to other

3478
03:09:00,200 --> 03:09:02,400
Speaker 1: a bunch of rights there, and like one of those

3479
03:09:02,440 --> 03:09:05,720
Speaker 1: kind of important insights is that like, um, like they

3480
03:09:05,760 --> 03:09:09,440
Speaker 1: couldn't get an improvement in like targeting and accuracy without

3481
03:09:09,640 --> 03:09:12,520
Speaker 1: like basically making the gun turret and agent of its

3482
03:09:12,520 --> 03:09:15,240
Speaker 1: own that link and the like the turret and the

3483
03:09:15,240 --> 03:09:20,360
Speaker 1: gunner would be cooperative agents that in combination would m

3484
03:09:20,560 --> 03:09:23,200
Speaker 1: achieve their goal. But like there was there was there's

3485
03:09:23,200 --> 03:09:25,240
Speaker 1: something strange and spooky about that. And I think that

3486
03:09:25,280 --> 03:09:28,720
Speaker 1: then this feedback mechanism inside the turret gives it a

3487
03:09:28,760 --> 03:09:32,240
Speaker 1: sort of weird agency that combines with the agency of

3488
03:09:32,280 --> 03:09:35,080
Speaker 1: the gunner to like guide to the whole system towards

3489
03:09:35,080 --> 03:09:40,560
Speaker 1: the goal um. Yes. And what it ends up becoming

3490
03:09:40,600 --> 03:09:47,280
Speaker 1: then is a kind of boundary space where the distinction

3491
03:09:47,520 --> 03:09:54,840
Speaker 1: between human and machine UH starts to become ambiguous because

3492
03:09:54,959 --> 03:09:57,760
Speaker 1: they both start to possess they're both understood to have

3493
03:09:57,920 --> 03:10:01,400
Speaker 1: a kind of agency, they're both understood to have kinds

3494
03:10:01,400 --> 03:10:06,520
Speaker 1: of like functions, And then you kind of get this

3495
03:10:06,840 --> 03:10:11,560
Speaker 1: sort of like human machine interface idea, and you can

3496
03:10:11,640 --> 03:10:14,000
Speaker 1: start to bring in all of these different ideas from

3497
03:10:14,040 --> 03:10:21,959
Speaker 1: like anthropology, from physiology, from math, from ecology, UH, and

3498
03:10:22,160 --> 03:10:27,359
Speaker 1: they all start to interact in this domain of cybernetics.

3499
03:10:28,320 --> 03:10:30,560
Speaker 1: And like the core, the core idea of them that

3500
03:10:30,840 --> 03:10:34,280
Speaker 1: kind of ties everything together is that of feedback. UM. So,

3501
03:10:34,440 --> 03:10:38,160
Speaker 1: like weener realizes that what he needs to do achieve

3502
03:10:38,200 --> 03:10:41,120
Speaker 1: this goal is is a feedback mechanism, and that would

3503
03:10:41,520 --> 03:10:43,560
Speaker 1: is error correcting feedback, right like if the if the

3504
03:10:43,560 --> 03:10:45,440
Speaker 1: gun is slightly too far to the left, it corrects

3505
03:10:45,440 --> 03:10:48,320
Speaker 1: itself right words and so on. UM. But that, as

3506
03:10:48,360 --> 03:10:50,240
Speaker 1: you said, that that connects across all sorts of things, right,

3507
03:10:50,280 --> 03:10:53,439
Speaker 1: Like you start to realize that's present everywhere in ecology,

3508
03:10:53,600 --> 03:10:59,800
Speaker 1: in neurology, in UM, like that learning is based on feedback,

3509
03:10:59,800 --> 03:11:02,199
Speaker 1: you know. So it's really funny to read to read

3510
03:11:02,280 --> 03:11:06,119
Speaker 1: Norbet Leaner like in the fifties basically describing what would

3511
03:11:06,120 --> 03:11:08,560
Speaker 1: become machine learning, and he's just like he just off

3512
03:11:08,560 --> 03:11:11,039
Speaker 1: the coff is like, yeah, like if you could, if

3513
03:11:11,040 --> 03:11:13,879
Speaker 1: a machine could like UM, or if if any system

3514
03:11:13,920 --> 03:11:17,480
Speaker 1: could just like UM analyze its own performance and then

3515
03:11:17,520 --> 03:11:19,560
Speaker 1: feedback onto itself, it would it would learn any old

3516
03:11:19,560 --> 03:11:21,760
Speaker 1: pattern you wanted it to. And he's like yeah, he

3517
03:11:21,840 --> 03:11:24,760
Speaker 1: turns out he was completely correct. And that's that's where

3518
03:11:24,879 --> 03:11:27,520
Speaker 1: kind of like gets into like you get later thinkers

3519
03:11:27,560 --> 03:11:32,200
Speaker 1: like Ross Ashby who was UM and like other folks

3520
03:11:32,240 --> 03:11:34,640
Speaker 1: like we in in and around psychiatry, we were like

3521
03:11:34,959 --> 03:11:37,800
Speaker 1: really interested in how the brain worked. And that's that's

3522
03:11:37,800 --> 03:11:41,920
Speaker 1: the other thing that feeds into like cybernetics is like, um,

3523
03:11:42,160 --> 03:11:44,480
Speaker 1: it's It's why Pickering called his book the Cybernetic Brains,

3524
03:11:44,480 --> 03:11:47,160
Speaker 1: because like the brain and like nervous systems show up

3525
03:11:47,200 --> 03:11:51,080
Speaker 1: so much in that field, right that, Like the brain

3526
03:11:51,160 --> 03:11:53,840
Speaker 1: being a kind of learning and adapt an adapt adaptation

3527
03:11:53,879 --> 03:11:58,800
Speaker 1: machine attached to the body or whatever, and like, um, yeah,

3528
03:11:58,800 --> 03:12:00,840
Speaker 1: I don't know, there's there's something fascinating there, and like, um,

3529
03:12:01,120 --> 03:12:04,200
Speaker 1: the I mean there's something kind of possibly troubling and

3530
03:12:04,240 --> 03:12:07,320
Speaker 1: kind of melting down the distinctions between living organisms and

3531
03:12:07,360 --> 03:12:10,760
Speaker 1: machines or whatever, but like there's also something very compelling

3532
03:12:10,800 --> 03:12:14,040
Speaker 1: and just like recognizing the same patterns happening at all

3533
03:12:14,080 --> 03:12:18,120
Speaker 1: these different levels, right that, Like um, like you get

3534
03:12:18,160 --> 03:12:20,800
Speaker 1: similar behaviors and similar kind of outcomes, and then you know,

3535
03:12:20,920 --> 03:12:22,440
Speaker 1: it turns out like you can kind of do with

3536
03:12:22,560 --> 03:12:26,560
Speaker 1: science on these things and and come up with even

3537
03:12:26,560 --> 03:12:31,480
Speaker 1: better explanatory frameworks based on your observations across many fields. Yes,

3538
03:12:31,680 --> 03:12:36,480
Speaker 1: and so it is in a sense about computers. But

3539
03:12:36,680 --> 03:12:42,240
Speaker 1: the computers are really just understood to act like a

3540
03:12:42,400 --> 03:12:47,679
Speaker 1: kind of brain and that's connected to a nervous system

3541
03:12:47,720 --> 03:12:51,680
Speaker 1: which is connected to you know, like actuators of some

3542
03:12:51,760 --> 03:12:54,960
Speaker 1: kinds some kinds of like machines that actually do things

3543
03:12:55,040 --> 03:13:01,240
Speaker 1: in the world. So it's not about like say computer

3544
03:13:01,640 --> 03:13:05,560
Speaker 1: science specifically, it's more about, like, well, computers are a

3545
03:13:05,640 --> 03:13:12,800
Speaker 1: useful way to do cybernetic design because they can act

3546
03:13:12,840 --> 03:13:16,600
Speaker 1: as a control system and they're flexible. It's not that

3547
03:13:16,920 --> 03:13:21,280
Speaker 1: this is about computers really, yeah, yeah, absolutely, And like

3548
03:13:21,320 --> 03:13:23,440
Speaker 1: that you brought you brought up something very important there

3549
03:13:23,480 --> 03:13:26,680
Speaker 1: that like, um, in all cases of like cybernetics, like

3550
03:13:26,760 --> 03:13:29,560
Speaker 1: the the systems that we're considering are not like isolated

3551
03:13:29,640 --> 03:13:31,680
Speaker 1: like braining a box kind of things. They're all the

3552
03:13:31,720 --> 03:13:35,440
Speaker 1: things that are directly engaged with a world, um Like.

3553
03:13:35,640 --> 03:13:39,360
Speaker 1: So it's it's not that kind of like monatic kind

3554
03:13:39,400 --> 03:13:42,800
Speaker 1: of rationalism of like computation just happening in a box

3555
03:13:42,840 --> 03:13:45,280
Speaker 1: somewhere and like perfect intelligence and that kind of the

3556
03:13:45,360 --> 03:13:48,720
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. These are always, like the separantations, are

3557
03:13:48,720 --> 03:13:51,680
Speaker 1: always working with systems that were engaged in real time

3558
03:13:51,720 --> 03:13:56,240
Speaker 1: emergence situations UM. And because of that, they rapidly kind

3559
03:13:56,240 --> 03:14:01,039
Speaker 1: of like acknowledge that for so many of these system

3560
03:14:01,120 --> 03:14:02,720
Speaker 1: is the only way to figure out what it's going

3561
03:14:02,760 --> 03:14:05,800
Speaker 1: to do is to let it do it UM because

3562
03:14:05,840 --> 03:14:09,400
Speaker 1: you can't like pre compute all the possible outcomes. You know,

3563
03:14:09,520 --> 03:14:13,599
Speaker 1: of these like very sticky and complex real world situations,

3564
03:14:14,120 --> 03:14:16,080
Speaker 1: the best way to figure out what it's going to

3565
03:14:16,120 --> 03:14:18,960
Speaker 1: do is to let it do it and watch. Yes.

3566
03:14:19,200 --> 03:14:21,120
Speaker 1: And I think I think that's an interesting sort of

3567
03:14:21,160 --> 03:14:23,080
Speaker 1: like if if you look at where a lot of

3568
03:14:23,120 --> 03:14:29,600
Speaker 1: the sort of like techno fetishists like social attempts to

3569
03:14:29,640 --> 03:14:32,160
Speaker 1: sort of like manipulate a side e technology of God,

3570
03:14:32,280 --> 03:14:35,480
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, you get like like blockchain smart contracts,

3571
03:14:35,520 --> 03:14:39,080
Speaker 1: and it's like the blockchain smart contract is like, Okay,

3572
03:14:39,520 --> 03:14:42,760
Speaker 1: we're going to think of literally everything that could possibly

3573
03:14:42,800 --> 03:14:45,040
Speaker 1: happen an attempt to put it in like a very

3574
03:14:45,080 --> 03:14:48,560
Speaker 1: small amount of code, and if anything like literally anything

3575
03:14:48,600 --> 03:14:52,840
Speaker 1: at all happens that you know that we didn't expect.

3576
03:14:53,800 --> 03:14:56,200
Speaker 1: Where now everyone is now screwed because we have just

3577
03:14:56,280 --> 03:14:57,840
Speaker 1: made this thing imautable and put it in such a

3578
03:14:57,879 --> 03:15:00,400
Speaker 1: way that we can't change it. Yeah, I think that, Yeah,

3579
03:15:00,440 --> 03:15:02,640
Speaker 1: that's a I think this is a useful sort of

3580
03:15:03,560 --> 03:15:06,160
Speaker 1: I mean corrective just it just in the way that

3581
03:15:06,200 --> 03:15:08,680
Speaker 1: we've we've we've now like like we've gone backwards, like

3582
03:15:08,680 --> 03:15:10,600
Speaker 1: we've we've gotten into this place where you instead of

3583
03:15:10,640 --> 03:15:12,480
Speaker 1: like we need to let these systems play out, we

3584
03:15:12,520 --> 03:15:14,400
Speaker 1: need to let them control themselves. We've gotten to like

3585
03:15:16,680 --> 03:15:19,480
Speaker 1: we think that we can actually just sort of like

3586
03:15:20,240 --> 03:15:24,480
Speaker 1: you know, turn turn the entire system into code that

3587
03:15:24,520 --> 03:15:27,080
Speaker 1: we can break ahead of time and have you know,

3588
03:15:27,480 --> 03:15:30,640
Speaker 1: the basis of some sort of social system off of Yeah,

3589
03:15:30,680 --> 03:15:32,120
Speaker 1: I mean it's I think it's something that like the

3590
03:15:32,160 --> 03:15:35,400
Speaker 1: Sarpetitions and like maybe Pickering what described as like a

3591
03:15:35,760 --> 03:15:39,760
Speaker 1: kind of perversity of modern cost like the modern mindsets

3592
03:15:39,840 --> 03:15:43,960
Speaker 1: like that, that kind of like rational like um kind

3593
03:15:43,959 --> 03:15:47,000
Speaker 1: of mindset right like um, and like to the sarpetitions,

3594
03:15:47,040 --> 03:15:48,959
Speaker 1: that that whole thing with like the bloock chain stuff

3595
03:15:48,959 --> 03:15:52,280
Speaker 1: will be just truly laughable because it's immediate, It's immediately

3596
03:15:52,360 --> 03:15:56,800
Speaker 1: obvious to them that the problem. There's like, okay, proposing

3597
03:15:56,920 --> 03:15:58,680
Speaker 1: we're going to use a blockchain to regulate some sort

3598
03:15:58,680 --> 03:16:01,320
Speaker 1: of social process or whatever, smart contracts, whatever, and it's

3599
03:16:01,360 --> 03:16:04,120
Speaker 1: like that thing has nowhere near the fidelity required to

3600
03:16:04,200 --> 03:16:08,560
Speaker 1: regulate social processes. Because social processes are unimaginably complex and

3601
03:16:08,600 --> 03:16:11,959
Speaker 1: have just incredible variety. There's a there's a there's like

3602
03:16:12,000 --> 03:16:14,240
Speaker 1: a law that's at the House of Cybernattics called Ashby's

3603
03:16:14,280 --> 03:16:17,760
Speaker 1: Law of requisite variety, And in short, it basically states

3604
03:16:17,800 --> 03:16:22,160
Speaker 1: that given a system um, the only thing that's really

3605
03:16:22,160 --> 03:16:25,959
Speaker 1: capable of regulating is regulating it is itself, because a

3606
03:16:26,040 --> 03:16:30,200
Speaker 1: regulator needs as much variety as the thing it's regulating

3607
03:16:30,400 --> 03:16:34,240
Speaker 1: if it's gonna like actually succeeded it um. And so

3608
03:16:34,360 --> 03:16:36,680
Speaker 1: that's that's the kind of thing that nudges everyone towards,

3609
03:16:37,120 --> 03:16:39,760
Speaker 1: like like when you get to someone like Stafford Beer

3610
03:16:40,000 --> 03:16:43,959
Speaker 1: is his whole model of like organization pushes all a

3611
03:16:44,000 --> 03:16:46,560
Speaker 1: lot of the intelligence downwards to the to the bottom layers,

3612
03:16:46,560 --> 03:16:49,120
Speaker 1: because there is basically the people on the ground on

3613
03:16:49,160 --> 03:16:51,879
Speaker 1: the shop floor are the people who are best informed

3614
03:16:51,920 --> 03:16:54,240
Speaker 1: to actually deal with their own situation. And that's that

3615
03:16:54,280 --> 03:16:57,000
Speaker 1: sounds like a banal observation, but like it for Beer

3616
03:16:57,080 --> 03:16:58,840
Speaker 1: that was actually quite a step forward to like just

3617
03:16:58,920 --> 03:17:03,240
Speaker 1: admit that like trying to trying to like in his context,

3618
03:17:03,240 --> 03:17:06,280
Speaker 1: it was like often the organization of a firm, like

3619
03:17:06,320 --> 03:17:09,200
Speaker 1: at our company, like trying to manage a company from

3620
03:17:09,280 --> 03:17:12,960
Speaker 1: the boardroom is just fucking ludicrous, Like no nobody there

3621
03:17:12,959 --> 03:17:16,759
Speaker 1: has enough information to act on They're all dumbasses anyway.

3622
03:17:16,920 --> 03:17:18,800
Speaker 1: So for Beer, it was just like this is where

3623
03:17:18,800 --> 03:17:21,040
Speaker 1: it starts to get interesting and it connects to the politics,

3624
03:17:21,160 --> 03:17:24,160
Speaker 1: right that like for one of these scientists just observing

3625
03:17:24,200 --> 03:17:27,640
Speaker 1: reality and like you know, using you know, pretty pretty

3626
03:17:27,640 --> 03:17:30,680
Speaker 1: good stray intuitions and like scientific frameworks, just looking at

3627
03:17:30,720 --> 03:17:32,840
Speaker 1: it and going like, oh, it is obviously the case

3628
03:17:32,920 --> 03:17:35,760
Speaker 1: that the best way for society to organize is bottom

3629
03:17:35,840 --> 03:17:39,560
Speaker 1: up self organization. Um. And that that like it's not

3630
03:17:39,640 --> 03:17:42,560
Speaker 1: just a moral point, it's actually a technical point as well,

3631
03:17:42,920 --> 03:17:46,520
Speaker 1: that like, um, these these top down, bureaucratic kind of

3632
03:17:47,000 --> 03:17:50,800
Speaker 1: micro tyrannies are not only morally objectionable, they're also technically

3633
03:17:50,800 --> 03:17:53,280
Speaker 1: inferior to the kind of like cyber communism we want

3634
03:17:53,320 --> 03:17:56,080
Speaker 1: to institute. Yeah, and I have like what if one

3635
03:17:56,080 --> 03:17:59,560
Speaker 1: of my what if? What of my favorite stories about

3636
03:17:59,600 --> 03:18:01,560
Speaker 1: So I worked as a maintenance worker for a while

3637
03:18:01,760 --> 03:18:04,320
Speaker 1: and one day my boss was like, there's some problem

3638
03:18:04,360 --> 03:18:06,440
Speaker 1: with a sink. And my boss was like, no, we

3639
03:18:06,440 --> 03:18:08,720
Speaker 1: don't need the plumbers. I can do this. And so

3640
03:18:08,760 --> 03:18:10,360
Speaker 1: he goes in there and it's it's what it's like,

3641
03:18:10,400 --> 03:18:11,960
Speaker 1: it's it's like a sink in like a building, right,

3642
03:18:11,959 --> 03:18:13,240
Speaker 1: So it's it has just one of those things that

3643
03:18:13,320 --> 03:18:15,039
Speaker 1: there's like a pipe that connects to the top of

3644
03:18:15,080 --> 03:18:18,080
Speaker 1: the sink to like the wall, and he goes, okay, here,

3645
03:18:18,080 --> 03:18:20,039
Speaker 1: look at this, I'm gonna I'm gonna turn this valve

3646
03:18:20,040 --> 03:18:22,280
Speaker 1: and this is gonna turn the water off. And what

3647
03:18:22,360 --> 03:18:25,400
Speaker 1: he instead does is he take he takes the pipe

3648
03:18:25,520 --> 03:18:28,760
Speaker 1: off of the wall and just like a torrent of

3649
03:18:28,840 --> 03:18:31,600
Speaker 1: water is just now shooting out of this pipe because

3650
03:18:31,640 --> 03:18:33,960
Speaker 1: he has removed the thing. Yeah, he's removed the pipe

3651
03:18:34,000 --> 03:18:38,160
Speaker 1: from the wall. This is you know, this is this

3652
03:18:38,200 --> 03:18:41,720
Speaker 1: is why I think like, yeah, go this this, this,

3653
03:18:41,720 --> 03:18:44,480
Speaker 1: this this, you know this this is like a particularly

3654
03:18:44,520 --> 03:18:48,199
Speaker 1: funny example of how these sort of top down management systems.

3655
03:18:48,200 --> 03:18:51,160
Speaker 1: And this guy like like used to be a maintenance guy, right,

3656
03:18:51,200 --> 03:18:54,280
Speaker 1: but he just like most a plumber and so you know,

3657
03:18:54,360 --> 03:18:56,280
Speaker 1: and he accepts into it and he's like, oh no, no no, no, no, no,

3658
03:18:56,400 --> 03:18:58,160
Speaker 1: hold on, I know I know how this system works.

3659
03:18:58,200 --> 03:19:00,560
Speaker 1: It's gonna be fine. And it just there is a

3660
03:19:00,560 --> 03:19:02,400
Speaker 1: guys like the guys are of water has so much

3661
03:19:02,440 --> 03:19:04,760
Speaker 1: force to it's like it's like pushing our tool cart

3662
03:19:04,840 --> 03:19:11,000
Speaker 1: across the room. It's like a fighter hydrants come out

3663
03:19:11,080 --> 03:19:16,520
Speaker 1: with walk now I wanted to I guess beers is

3664
03:19:16,560 --> 03:19:18,800
Speaker 1: an interesting way to go to go into the sort

3665
03:19:18,840 --> 03:19:21,040
Speaker 1: of the politics of what this actually looks like. Do

3666
03:19:21,040 --> 03:19:23,960
Speaker 1: you want to talk about and I know I briefly

3667
03:19:23,959 --> 03:19:26,840
Speaker 1: talked about this in an episode in The Liberalism a

3668
03:19:26,879 --> 03:19:28,720
Speaker 1: while back, but do you want to go into sort

3669
03:19:28,760 --> 03:19:31,360
Speaker 1: of more detail into what Beers was up to and

3670
03:19:32,560 --> 03:19:38,200
Speaker 1: the eventually failed attempt, because of military coup to try

3671
03:19:38,240 --> 03:19:47,560
Speaker 1: to implement like a cybernetic system for organizing essentially an economy. Yeah, sure, um. Yeah,

3672
03:19:47,640 --> 03:19:56,280
Speaker 1: So Stafford Beer was a UM management consultant UM he

3673
03:19:56,520 --> 03:20:01,040
Speaker 1: and a cyberneticition. He got his star sort of doing

3674
03:20:01,680 --> 03:20:08,800
Speaker 1: operations research UM, which is kind of a precursor to

3675
03:20:08,840 --> 03:20:16,560
Speaker 1: cybernetics UM that is kind of like interested in logistics

3676
03:20:16,760 --> 03:20:23,560
Speaker 1: and organizing systems UM in the British military UM in

3677
03:20:23,840 --> 03:20:27,160
Speaker 1: World War Two. And then he came out of that

3678
03:20:27,720 --> 03:20:34,200
Speaker 1: and became a corporate UH consultant for operations Research and

3679
03:20:34,320 --> 03:20:42,959
Speaker 1: Management UM. And so in working in the corporate world UM,

3680
03:20:43,080 --> 03:20:48,040
Speaker 1: he saw all of the things that were really screwed

3681
03:20:48,160 --> 03:20:54,360
Speaker 1: up with the status quo UM way of doing business

3682
03:20:54,560 --> 03:20:59,080
Speaker 1: and of organizing things, you know, the way that autocratic

3683
03:20:59,200 --> 03:21:05,720
Speaker 1: power of management creates all kinds of ridiculous problems, the

3684
03:21:05,800 --> 03:21:10,560
Speaker 1: way that managing organizations. According to org charts, which are

3685
03:21:10,640 --> 03:21:15,000
Speaker 1: there to assign blame more than anything else, creates all

3686
03:21:15,120 --> 03:21:22,640
Speaker 1: kinds of perversities, the way that organizations fail to adapt

3687
03:21:22,640 --> 03:21:26,160
Speaker 1: to their environments because they get into these kinds of

3688
03:21:26,280 --> 03:21:31,120
Speaker 1: strange neuroses. Um. And you know, just sort of going

3689
03:21:31,160 --> 03:21:37,520
Speaker 1: through all of that and more often than not being

3690
03:21:37,640 --> 03:21:44,279
Speaker 1: unable to intervene in an effective way uh to um

3691
03:21:44,400 --> 03:21:48,760
Speaker 1: address these problems and just sort of like seeing how

3692
03:21:49,440 --> 03:21:55,359
Speaker 1: these little instances of perverse corporate culture are indicative of

3693
03:21:55,440 --> 03:22:00,920
Speaker 1: the broader problems of our society as a whole and

3694
03:22:01,120 --> 03:22:07,720
Speaker 1: of capitalism, right. Um. And so you know, he had

3695
03:22:07,760 --> 03:22:11,560
Speaker 1: a basis from his time in India during the Second

3696
03:22:11,600 --> 03:22:16,720
Speaker 1: World War in uh kind of like tontra uh kind

3697
03:22:16,720 --> 03:22:23,800
Speaker 1: of like you know, Eastern or specifically Indian um, spirituality, yoga,

3698
03:22:23,920 --> 03:22:26,440
Speaker 1: all this kind of stuff. So he kind of had

3699
03:22:26,440 --> 03:22:31,040
Speaker 1: a cult countercultural side to his personality. UM. And he

3700
03:22:31,080 --> 03:22:35,760
Speaker 1: was always doing tinkering strange experiments with cybernetics. He wasn't

3701
03:22:35,879 --> 03:22:40,480
Speaker 1: just the straight lace corporate guy. Uh. But it was

3702
03:22:40,520 --> 03:22:47,120
Speaker 1: a combination of that sort of countercultural background with his

3703
03:22:47,240 --> 03:22:52,840
Speaker 1: growing frustration with corporate systems that led him to start

3704
03:22:52,879 --> 03:22:56,720
Speaker 1: to develop ideas about how things could be different and

3705
03:22:56,800 --> 03:23:00,879
Speaker 1: this kind of meshed up with the thoughts that were

3706
03:23:00,879 --> 03:23:07,120
Speaker 1: happening in Chile during the Chilean Revolution in the early seventies.

3707
03:23:07,959 --> 03:23:12,160
Speaker 1: Um So they reached out to him to come and

3708
03:23:12,280 --> 03:23:16,440
Speaker 1: help out with organizing their economy as they were undergoing

3709
03:23:16,560 --> 03:23:22,440
Speaker 1: this revolutionary process of trying to sort of throw off

3710
03:23:22,560 --> 03:23:28,840
Speaker 1: the shackles of imperialist dependency and create a society that

3711
03:23:29,000 --> 03:23:34,640
Speaker 1: was focused on the flourishing of workers, h end of

3712
03:23:34,760 --> 03:23:37,039
Speaker 1: society as a whole, as opposed to one that was

3713
03:23:37,080 --> 03:23:41,080
Speaker 1: based on sort of you know, resource extraction where everything

3714
03:23:41,120 --> 03:23:45,640
Speaker 1: flows to the top. Yeah, you want to explain some

3715
03:23:45,760 --> 03:23:50,760
Speaker 1: more about how that went well? So, um yeah, it

3716
03:23:51,480 --> 03:23:53,160
Speaker 1: it went well and then it went badly, I guess.

3717
03:23:53,280 --> 03:23:56,240
Speaker 1: Um But from from from the reading we've done and

3718
03:23:56,280 --> 03:24:00,120
Speaker 1: from our research, it seems like if basically, if the

3719
03:24:00,720 --> 03:24:03,800
Speaker 1: if the US hadn't sent in the fascists to kill

3720
03:24:03,879 --> 03:24:06,120
Speaker 1: them all, um this this would have worked. Like it

3721
03:24:06,280 --> 03:24:08,760
Speaker 1: was working, and it was that the project was actually

3722
03:24:08,760 --> 03:24:12,200
Speaker 1: going pretty well. We explained briefly what like I think

3723
03:24:12,160 --> 03:24:15,200
Speaker 1: it becomes it's called product cybersyme, But what exactly is

3724
03:24:15,360 --> 03:24:19,600
Speaker 1: like what was it doing? So? Um so, like Beer's

3725
03:24:19,640 --> 03:24:22,160
Speaker 1: big kind of innovation is what we call the viable

3726
03:24:22,200 --> 03:24:26,840
Speaker 1: system model or VSM, and it's a model that's, um

3727
03:24:26,920 --> 03:24:29,680
Speaker 1: it's a model for these like autonomous social systems that

3728
03:24:29,840 --> 03:24:32,360
Speaker 1: is kind of taking It's not I wouldn't say it's

3729
03:24:32,440 --> 03:24:34,920
Speaker 1: entirely based on like the structure of the human body,

3730
03:24:34,920 --> 03:24:37,199
Speaker 1: but it's like taking a lot of lessons from biology

3731
03:24:37,200 --> 03:24:41,880
Speaker 1: and neurology and neuroscience and and cybernetics and just kind

3732
03:24:41,879 --> 03:24:45,000
Speaker 1: of meshing them all together. Um. So, basically, like it's

3733
03:24:45,040 --> 03:24:47,720
Speaker 1: like if your body is basically a bunch of autonomous

3734
03:24:47,800 --> 03:24:49,640
Speaker 1: organs that all take care of their own business, plus

3735
03:24:49,680 --> 03:24:53,200
Speaker 1: a nervous system that synchronizes them and unifies them into

3736
03:24:53,240 --> 03:24:55,880
Speaker 1: a workable hole, then you can kind of see the

3737
03:24:55,920 --> 03:24:59,600
Speaker 1: whole system as having this kind of mixture of vertical

3738
03:24:59,680 --> 03:25:02,720
Speaker 1: and horror suntal aspects. Like on the one hand, it

3739
03:25:02,720 --> 03:25:06,440
Speaker 1: has this horizontal aspect where the autonomous like system one

3740
03:25:06,560 --> 03:25:09,760
Speaker 1: units are are well autonomous, more or less like the

3741
03:25:10,040 --> 03:25:11,960
Speaker 1: harsh takes harsh takes care of its own thing. The

3742
03:25:12,040 --> 03:25:13,760
Speaker 1: lungs take care of their own thing. But then the

3743
03:25:13,800 --> 03:25:18,360
Speaker 1: nervous system meshes them together in layers so that it

3744
03:25:18,440 --> 03:25:22,160
Speaker 1: can say, oh, hold on too much oxygen dial it

3745
03:25:22,240 --> 03:25:24,960
Speaker 1: down a bit, and then the organs responds dynamically to

3746
03:25:24,959 --> 03:25:27,520
Speaker 1: those those signals, right, So it's kind of like up

3747
03:25:27,560 --> 03:25:30,360
Speaker 1: down feedback loops, right where then the lower levels of

3748
03:25:30,360 --> 03:25:33,080
Speaker 1: the system are the smart bits that are doing all

3749
03:25:33,080 --> 03:25:37,440
Speaker 1: the important work. But there's this supporting infrastructure of the

3750
03:25:37,480 --> 03:25:40,440
Speaker 1: nervous system in the brain that unifies the whole thing

3751
03:25:40,440 --> 03:25:44,039
Speaker 1: and keeps it all on the rails. Um So, and

3752
03:25:44,480 --> 03:25:46,680
Speaker 1: importantly it's a kind of recursive model. So like a

3753
03:25:46,959 --> 03:25:50,640
Speaker 1: human being is an autonomous unit, and then that it's

3754
03:25:50,760 --> 03:25:53,240
Speaker 1: that unit is composed of more autonomous units, like the

3755
03:25:53,320 --> 03:25:55,640
Speaker 1: organs and the muscles, and then each of those is

3756
03:25:55,680 --> 03:25:58,880
Speaker 1: composed of cells which are autonomous units, and then you know,

3757
03:25:58,920 --> 03:26:01,400
Speaker 1: so on. But like that latter goes upwards as well,

3758
03:26:01,440 --> 03:26:04,640
Speaker 1: so that like a team is an autonomous unit composed

3759
03:26:04,640 --> 03:26:08,480
Speaker 1: of human beings, a firm, or like a department, is

3760
03:26:08,520 --> 03:26:12,240
Speaker 1: a autonomous unit composed of teams. A firm is composed

3761
03:26:12,240 --> 03:26:16,080
Speaker 1: of departments, like a secretor is composed of firms. And

3762
03:26:16,120 --> 03:26:20,920
Speaker 1: it's the same kind of structure at each layer. Um.

3763
03:26:20,959 --> 03:26:24,279
Speaker 1: So that the kind of upside there is that like, um,

3764
03:26:24,320 --> 03:26:26,760
Speaker 1: you don't like you kind of have a unit fairly

3765
03:26:27,000 --> 03:26:29,480
Speaker 1: unifying like set of principles and like a science for

3766
03:26:29,560 --> 03:26:34,119
Speaker 1: doing this kind of like coordination of autonomous units at

3767
03:26:34,160 --> 03:26:37,160
Speaker 1: every level, at every every layer of society. So like

3768
03:26:37,800 --> 03:26:40,560
Speaker 1: in principle, the sort of like the serbonetic principles that

3769
03:26:40,560 --> 03:26:45,400
Speaker 1: get applied to cohering members of a team are the

3770
03:26:45,440 --> 03:26:47,800
Speaker 1: same storty of principles that get applied to like sectors

3771
03:26:47,800 --> 03:26:51,440
Speaker 1: in an economy. Um, with the same kind of you know,

3772
03:26:51,680 --> 03:26:55,400
Speaker 1: bottom up kind of feedback online as well. Um. So

3773
03:26:56,480 --> 03:27:00,320
Speaker 1: Stafford was invited to Chile to by the in a

3774
03:27:00,400 --> 03:27:04,119
Speaker 1: government in so that that was like nineteen seventy, right, Um,

3775
03:27:04,160 --> 03:27:06,840
Speaker 1: that that that election happened. So he arrived in late

3776
03:27:06,879 --> 03:27:13,080
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy I think, Um, I mean certain on the timeline,

3777
03:27:13,120 --> 03:27:15,480
Speaker 1: but we're looking at those those first few years of

3778
03:27:15,520 --> 03:27:18,600
Speaker 1: the seventies as as the time when this is happening. Yeah, yeah,

3779
03:27:18,600 --> 03:27:21,959
Speaker 1: I d elected in set in nicktey seventy. Yeah, so

3780
03:27:22,000 --> 03:27:23,960
Speaker 1: it's towards the end of that year that he's he's

3781
03:27:23,959 --> 03:27:26,920
Speaker 1: invited and he's basically kind of given the task of like, hey,

3782
03:27:27,040 --> 03:27:29,680
Speaker 1: do all this stuff but with this entire economy, and

3783
03:27:29,720 --> 03:27:33,480
Speaker 1: he's like, yeah, sure, cool, Um, so puts together projects

3784
03:27:33,480 --> 03:27:36,640
Speaker 1: cybersen UM and there's kind of long story there of

3785
03:27:36,680 --> 03:27:38,720
Speaker 1: like and then building out this kind of infrastructure and

3786
03:27:38,720 --> 03:27:43,200
Speaker 1: like it's it's all highly experimental UM and highly tensive.

3787
03:27:43,320 --> 03:27:45,560
Speaker 1: Like they one of the big problems they run into

3788
03:27:45,640 --> 03:27:47,080
Speaker 1: is that like they don't have very much in the

3789
03:27:47,080 --> 03:27:50,959
Speaker 1: way of like hardcare, especially because they're under embargo. So

3790
03:27:51,000 --> 03:27:53,959
Speaker 1: they had like, um a pretty what at the time

3791
03:27:54,000 --> 03:27:56,600
Speaker 1: was a pretty crafty old mainframe that they ran the

3792
03:27:56,680 --> 03:28:01,000
Speaker 1: around the software on UM. But like step step one

3793
03:28:01,040 --> 03:28:04,800
Speaker 1: was like UM installing this like huge communications network amongst

3794
03:28:04,840 --> 03:28:07,040
Speaker 1: all the factories and UM like setting up like the

3795
03:28:07,080 --> 03:28:09,480
Speaker 1: workers committees and stuff. Would feed information into it and

3796
03:28:09,520 --> 03:28:12,440
Speaker 1: it would kind of again this like feedback thing where

3797
03:28:12,760 --> 03:28:16,640
Speaker 1: you kind of take signals from the economy, integrate them,

3798
03:28:16,640 --> 03:28:19,800
Speaker 1: and then go, oh, you're producing too much steel, Route

3799
03:28:19,840 --> 03:28:22,480
Speaker 1: some of your product over to this this factory and

3800
03:28:22,520 --> 03:28:24,560
Speaker 1: it will be better used there. And then you know,

3801
03:28:24,800 --> 03:28:26,600
Speaker 1: you guys over there turn up this dial, you turn

3802
03:28:26,640 --> 03:28:30,480
Speaker 1: them down this dial. So and then if that plan

3803
03:28:30,600 --> 03:28:32,879
Speaker 1: doesn't quite work out, then you've got another layer of

3804
03:28:32,879 --> 03:28:36,080
Speaker 1: feedback tomorrow to say, Okay, that plan didn't quite work,

3805
03:28:36,080 --> 03:28:40,000
Speaker 1: here's an adjusted plan. So it's it's just like both

3806
03:28:40,040 --> 03:28:42,560
Speaker 1: bottom up and top down sort of loop of feedback.

3807
03:28:42,680 --> 03:28:46,160
Speaker 1: That's like, I think that the phrase pickering is is

3808
03:28:46,200 --> 03:28:51,840
Speaker 1: reciprocal adaptation where the economy and its firms and its

3809
03:28:51,840 --> 03:28:53,720
Speaker 1: workers are all kind of adapting to each other in

3810
03:28:53,760 --> 03:28:55,400
Speaker 1: real time in a kind of in a in a

3811
03:28:55,760 --> 03:29:03,640
Speaker 1: full system. UM. Uh, yes, no, that I mean, that's

3812
03:29:03,680 --> 03:29:08,360
Speaker 1: that's essentially what Cyberson was. It was a system designed

3813
03:29:08,600 --> 03:29:19,240
Speaker 1: too largely, I think, at first supplement the market, although

3814
03:29:20,560 --> 03:29:24,520
Speaker 1: Beer later realizes that like, actually, if you have a

3815
03:29:24,560 --> 03:29:31,000
Speaker 1: good system of this kind, you probably don't need a market. Um.

3816
03:29:31,080 --> 03:29:36,080
Speaker 1: But essentially it was like, Okay, our economy has been

3817
03:29:36,240 --> 03:29:43,320
Speaker 1: one that has been built around dependence too, uh, you know,

3818
03:29:43,520 --> 03:29:47,160
Speaker 1: especially the United States, and it's been organized in that way,

3819
03:29:47,200 --> 03:29:51,480
Speaker 1: and we need to reorganize the economy both to promote

3820
03:29:51,480 --> 03:29:54,360
Speaker 1: the well being of the workers, the autonomy of the workers,

3821
03:29:55,080 --> 03:29:58,600
Speaker 1: realized the ideals of socialism in that way, and also

3822
03:29:58,760 --> 03:30:03,440
Speaker 1: to create a system that is less dependent on those

3823
03:30:03,440 --> 03:30:09,920
Speaker 1: existing structures of imperialism. And so having this reciprocal adaptation UM,

3824
03:30:09,959 --> 03:30:14,720
Speaker 1: having systems in place to connect things that were previously

3825
03:30:14,879 --> 03:30:18,880
Speaker 1: disconnected would allow you to move in that way of

3826
03:30:18,920 --> 03:30:23,920
Speaker 1: increasing autonomy and increasing freedom. UM. And that was generally

3827
03:30:23,959 --> 03:30:29,959
Speaker 1: the idea of cyber sin Um. Yes, and there was

3828
03:30:30,000 --> 03:30:33,160
Speaker 1: something very interesting like when we were reading the reissue

3829
03:30:33,320 --> 03:30:35,320
Speaker 1: of his book Brain of the Firm, where he has

3830
03:30:35,320 --> 03:30:38,560
Speaker 1: a section the end that that documents this whole experience

3831
03:30:38,560 --> 03:30:42,600
Speaker 1: in chile Um, there's a really interesting parents where towards

3832
03:30:42,640 --> 03:30:44,160
Speaker 1: the end of it he's like, and this is like

3833
03:30:44,840 --> 03:30:48,120
Speaker 1: getting up towards the coupe where he's like, um, he

3834
03:30:48,200 --> 03:30:50,920
Speaker 1: and the other cyber Sinem operatives, like the people are

3835
03:30:50,920 --> 03:30:53,560
Speaker 1: putting this together, realize that like the workers and link

3836
03:30:53,600 --> 03:30:56,680
Speaker 1: people in towns are are like just on their own,

3837
03:30:56,760 --> 03:30:59,800
Speaker 1: just like using this stuff and these kind of principles

3838
03:30:59,800 --> 03:31:04,640
Speaker 1: to just like abolish the value form basically like but

3839
03:31:05,280 --> 03:31:09,199
Speaker 1: notably without the involvement from above, like as in Beer

3840
03:31:09,240 --> 03:31:12,720
Speaker 1: and Company, stumble upon this just happening where they're like,

3841
03:31:12,760 --> 03:31:14,960
Speaker 1: oh my god, they're just they're just dismantling the market,

3842
03:31:15,040 --> 03:31:17,600
Speaker 1: and it's like it's all just kind of happening, and

3843
03:31:17,680 --> 03:31:20,640
Speaker 1: that's there was something really wonderful to that then, Like

3844
03:31:21,440 --> 03:31:24,280
Speaker 1: it it indicated like there was there really wants something

3845
03:31:24,320 --> 03:31:29,120
Speaker 1: to it that like you could like as in people working,

3846
03:31:29,160 --> 03:31:32,480
Speaker 1: people could use these tools and this like new way

3847
03:31:32,520 --> 03:31:38,480
Speaker 1: of organizing themselves. Two just like liquidate market relations and

3848
03:31:38,600 --> 03:31:42,200
Speaker 1: wage relations like spun spontaneously. But it's it's a spontaneity

3849
03:31:42,280 --> 03:31:46,279
Speaker 1: that's that's not really it. It's it feels very different

3850
03:31:46,280 --> 03:31:49,040
Speaker 1: from the kind of spontaneity you often get in it,

3851
03:31:49,240 --> 03:31:51,760
Speaker 1: like the way leftist sort of anarchists talk about it often,

3852
03:31:51,920 --> 03:31:54,440
Speaker 1: like the kind of spontaneity is like a magical sort

3853
03:31:54,440 --> 03:31:56,160
Speaker 1: of thing, which is like where freedom just arrives from

3854
03:31:56,160 --> 03:31:59,240
Speaker 1: out of nowhere. But this this was like installing infrastructure

3855
03:31:59,240 --> 03:32:01,400
Speaker 1: to enable freedom and then it actually kind of happening

3856
03:32:01,760 --> 03:32:04,879
Speaker 1: until the fascists showed up. You know. Yeah, what I

3857
03:32:04,879 --> 03:32:08,240
Speaker 1: think is really interesting about it is that so you know,

3858
03:32:08,520 --> 03:32:10,039
Speaker 1: you have you have like you have the sort of

3859
03:32:10,040 --> 03:32:12,360
Speaker 1: central control center from which a lot of stuff is

3860
03:32:12,400 --> 03:32:15,960
Speaker 1: being run. But you know, yeah, it's it's it's it's

3861
03:32:16,000 --> 03:32:18,520
Speaker 1: it's a weird system because it's trying to link together

3862
03:32:19,959 --> 03:32:22,560
Speaker 1: like a lot of different kinds of firms. Like you

3863
03:32:22,600 --> 03:32:24,360
Speaker 1: have something saying in private firms, but you have a

3864
03:32:24,400 --> 03:32:25,800
Speaker 1: lot of you have a lot of state run firms.

3865
03:32:25,800 --> 03:32:28,280
Speaker 1: You also have firms that throughout this whole process, people

3866
03:32:28,320 --> 03:32:31,320
Speaker 1: like workers just taking over factories, they're setting up these

3867
03:32:31,360 --> 03:32:34,280
Speaker 1: sort of like call them industrial cordons. I think I'm

3868
03:32:34,400 --> 03:32:38,400
Speaker 1: remembering way Spanish rights, Like yeah, they they you know,

3869
03:32:38,440 --> 03:32:40,400
Speaker 1: they start setting up their own institutions, and it's it's

3870
03:32:40,440 --> 03:32:43,160
Speaker 1: this becomes this way is sort of like networking these

3871
03:32:43,160 --> 03:32:46,320
Speaker 1: groups together. And the thing that's the other thing is

3872
03:32:46,360 --> 03:32:47,920
Speaker 1: it's interesting is you know, so you have you have

3873
03:32:47,959 --> 03:32:50,560
Speaker 1: them on the one hand, like just getting rid of

3874
03:32:50,560 --> 03:32:52,480
Speaker 1: markets and going like okay, well we can just coordinate

3875
03:32:53,160 --> 03:32:56,000
Speaker 1: production through this and like not have markets. And then

3876
03:32:56,040 --> 03:32:58,480
Speaker 1: the second thing they do is it's the freedom immediately

3877
03:32:58,480 --> 03:33:01,320
Speaker 1: becomes political in in the sense that like, yeah, like

3878
03:33:01,360 --> 03:33:03,039
Speaker 1: one of one of the things they do they there

3879
03:33:03,080 --> 03:33:04,680
Speaker 1: that that's what's going on in this period is that

3880
03:33:04,720 --> 03:33:08,920
Speaker 1: and there's Chile has a very very right wing like

3881
03:33:09,680 --> 03:33:11,800
Speaker 1: it's basically like the even today, it's like it's like

3882
03:33:11,920 --> 03:33:14,000
Speaker 1: really like one of the only like union like huge

3883
03:33:14,040 --> 03:33:16,240
Speaker 1: unions left in Chile is is truckers unions. And those

3884
03:33:16,240 --> 03:33:19,120
Speaker 1: guys are extremely right wing. There in this period of

3885
03:33:19,160 --> 03:33:21,520
Speaker 1: being backed by the CIA, they're being trained by f

3886
03:33:21,640 --> 03:33:24,800
Speaker 1: l c I O as I say, like every episode,

3887
03:33:25,640 --> 03:33:29,000
Speaker 1: but like yeah, and and they're you know, they're intentionally

3888
03:33:29,080 --> 03:33:31,560
Speaker 1: doing strikes trying to oversaw the government by blocking production,

3889
03:33:31,680 --> 03:33:35,280
Speaker 1: and you know, like the workers are like, Okay, hold on,

3890
03:33:35,320 --> 03:33:38,680
Speaker 1: we can just use this symenetic system to figure out

3891
03:33:38,720 --> 03:33:41,800
Speaker 1: where these blocks are, figure out where materials need to

3892
03:33:41,840 --> 03:33:43,959
Speaker 1: move through, and we can just you know, we can

3893
03:33:44,000 --> 03:33:46,640
Speaker 1: just stop the kind of revolution. We can just sort

3894
03:33:46,640 --> 03:33:49,039
Speaker 1: of like we can we can just we can just

3895
03:33:49,080 --> 03:33:51,760
Speaker 1: fight our way through it. And and it's interesting, is

3896
03:33:51,800 --> 03:33:54,880
Speaker 1: like this happens, and so then that that like the

3897
03:33:55,000 --> 03:33:57,680
Speaker 1: the original plan of using sort of of using these

3898
03:33:57,720 --> 03:34:00,360
Speaker 1: truckers is like the sort of right wing like the

3899
03:34:00,360 --> 03:34:03,480
Speaker 1: first attempt fails, and once that fails, it's like they

3900
03:34:03,480 --> 03:34:06,440
Speaker 1: have to go to the military m and the coup

3901
03:34:06,480 --> 03:34:10,400
Speaker 1: eventually works. It's it's hard to it's hard to resist

3902
03:34:10,440 --> 03:34:13,400
Speaker 1: a coup outright, isn't it. Um? Yeah, Yeah. The thing

3903
03:34:13,440 --> 03:34:15,640
Speaker 1: with the trucker strike is not like yeah, it's you

3904
03:34:15,640 --> 03:34:17,720
Speaker 1: can very well imagine like the CIA and stuff going

3905
03:34:17,720 --> 03:34:19,200
Speaker 1: into it thinking about that this is what we'll do.

3906
03:34:19,280 --> 03:34:22,080
Speaker 1: That's right, this will sell it up, but not realizing

3907
03:34:22,120 --> 03:34:25,520
Speaker 1: that the workers actually had in their hands a like

3908
03:34:26,400 --> 03:34:30,080
Speaker 1: vastly more sophisticated system for out maneuvering them. Yeah, and

3909
03:34:30,280 --> 03:34:33,040
Speaker 1: that system works like a charm, like like clockwork, just

3910
03:34:33,120 --> 03:34:35,800
Speaker 1: like and even like you read the accounts from this thing,

3911
03:34:35,840 --> 03:34:39,040
Speaker 1: like both in eating Medina's cybernetic revelation areas and in

3912
03:34:39,120 --> 03:34:41,480
Speaker 1: Beer's on account, and there's like the sense that was

3913
03:34:41,520 --> 03:34:43,760
Speaker 1: actually kind of spooky and weird. But I like even

3914
03:34:43,760 --> 03:34:46,280
Speaker 1: the people involved didn't quite expected to work out that way,

3915
03:34:46,320 --> 03:34:48,800
Speaker 1: and that like they were surprised at how effective it is,

3916
03:34:49,160 --> 03:34:51,240
Speaker 1: but that it gets back to the core of cyberneticsent like,

3917
03:34:52,000 --> 03:34:55,720
Speaker 1: feedback is weirdly effective at getting things done. You know,

3918
03:34:55,760 --> 03:34:59,280
Speaker 1: these like highly tuned feedback systems, they give you a

3919
03:34:59,320 --> 03:35:03,280
Speaker 1: lot of to maneuver this complex you know. Yeah, And

3920
03:35:03,520 --> 03:35:07,160
Speaker 1: I think in some sense, like this is like people

3921
03:35:07,200 --> 03:35:08,720
Speaker 1: talk a lot about Chile is sort of like the

3922
03:35:08,760 --> 03:35:11,600
Speaker 1: sort of foreclosed future of like an electoral demarcratic socialism,

3923
03:35:11,640 --> 03:35:13,680
Speaker 1: But like, I don't think that was the potential of

3924
03:35:13,720 --> 03:35:17,080
Speaker 1: the moment. The potential of the moment was this. And

3925
03:35:17,200 --> 03:35:20,200
Speaker 1: it's interesting to me that well because Beers kind of

3926
03:35:20,240 --> 03:35:25,680
Speaker 1: traces out a political history that never quite happened, which

3927
03:35:25,720 --> 03:35:27,520
Speaker 1: is so okay. One of the one of the sort

3928
03:35:27,520 --> 03:35:30,400
Speaker 1: of big political trends over the course of the twenty

3929
03:35:30,480 --> 03:35:32,840
Speaker 1: century is you have all these people who were sort

3930
03:35:32,879 --> 03:35:36,000
Speaker 1: of like they they basically got turned into planning bureaucrats

3931
03:35:36,080 --> 03:35:38,640
Speaker 1: Dree in June World War two, because every government basically

3932
03:35:38,640 --> 03:35:41,960
Speaker 1: turns into a giant planning engine, and then you know,

3933
03:35:42,080 --> 03:35:43,480
Speaker 1: some of them go into some of them, you know,

3934
03:35:43,560 --> 03:35:46,000
Speaker 1: essentially stay on in the government doing planning stuff. Beers

3935
03:35:46,120 --> 03:35:48,000
Speaker 1: like goes into the corporate world, and the corporations are

3936
03:35:48,040 --> 03:35:50,039
Speaker 1: also you know, they start doing they also start doing

3937
03:35:50,040 --> 03:35:54,039
Speaker 1: this planning stuff, and you know, but Beers is interesting

3938
03:35:54,080 --> 03:35:57,160
Speaker 1: because he he pivots, like he pivots in a direction

3939
03:35:57,640 --> 03:36:02,240
Speaker 1: that the world doesn't, which is he pivots towards Okay,

3940
03:36:02,280 --> 03:36:05,720
Speaker 1: the solution to sort of you know, the kind of

3941
03:36:05,720 --> 03:36:10,160
Speaker 1: like decay of these like authoritarian planning systems, whether whether

3942
03:36:10,200 --> 03:36:12,000
Speaker 1: they be like the corporate versions of it or the

3943
03:36:12,040 --> 03:36:17,440
Speaker 1: sort of like state administered like total economic planning from

3944
03:36:17,440 --> 03:36:19,800
Speaker 1: the top down versions is oh well, okay, we need

3945
03:36:19,840 --> 03:36:24,680
Speaker 1: to have planning from the bottom up and distributed. Yeah. Yeah.

3946
03:36:24,760 --> 03:36:28,920
Speaker 1: And he, like everyone involved with Iverson gets murdered. The

3947
03:36:29,000 --> 03:36:31,279
Speaker 1: only reason Beer survives because he wasn't in the country.

3948
03:36:31,800 --> 03:36:35,520
Speaker 1: And it's it's just really interesting, like like it's kind

3949
03:36:35,520 --> 03:36:39,840
Speaker 1: of not a story. Everybody got murdered, but some of

3950
03:36:39,879 --> 03:36:43,880
Speaker 1: them did, and some of them were in exile. Uh,

3951
03:36:44,160 --> 03:36:46,200
Speaker 1: some of them were imprisoned. Yeah, it was, it was,

3952
03:36:46,280 --> 03:36:48,720
Speaker 1: it was, you know, it was not a good time.

3953
03:36:48,840 --> 03:36:51,440
Speaker 1: Beer got out early and he knew things that we're

3954
03:36:51,440 --> 03:36:54,120
Speaker 1: getting we're getting bad, and everybody around him knew things

3955
03:36:54,160 --> 03:36:57,360
Speaker 1: were getting bad. Um. Yeah, like he was on him.

3956
03:36:57,400 --> 03:36:58,840
Speaker 1: He was on a kind of I guess, like it's

3957
03:36:58,879 --> 03:37:01,840
Speaker 1: almost adic mission to like try and get some of

3958
03:37:01,840 --> 03:37:03,720
Speaker 1: the blockade stuff. Like he was trying to. I think

3959
03:37:03,720 --> 03:37:05,720
Speaker 1: he was trying to flog like a container ship full

3960
03:37:05,720 --> 03:37:08,880
Speaker 1: of iron or something. You know, he was shopping shopping

3961
03:37:08,879 --> 03:37:10,440
Speaker 1: it around to try and trying to help out the

3962
03:37:10,480 --> 03:37:15,160
Speaker 1: likely appine to the world. That's what it was. Yeah.

3963
03:37:15,800 --> 03:37:20,280
Speaker 1: But um, yeah, it's um hold on, I had a

3964
03:37:20,320 --> 03:37:23,520
Speaker 1: thought there. Um. And then like after afterwards, um, like

3965
03:37:23,560 --> 03:37:25,400
Speaker 1: Beer spent a fair bit as time like trying to

3966
03:37:25,480 --> 03:37:27,920
Speaker 1: get his his comrades out of out of Chile and

3967
03:37:27,920 --> 03:37:30,280
Speaker 1: get them out of prison and got the got them

3968
03:37:30,280 --> 03:37:35,959
Speaker 1: resettled in um in the UK and so on America

3969
03:37:36,040 --> 03:37:43,800
Speaker 1: as well. Um. But yeah, I think that Um, this

3970
03:37:44,480 --> 03:37:48,400
Speaker 1: is like that's a very interesting point about the the

3971
03:37:48,720 --> 03:37:51,240
Speaker 1: you know, the sort of the real value of this

3972
03:37:51,320 --> 03:38:00,440
Speaker 1: moment being that movement towards autonomy, that that reorganization of society,

3973
03:38:00,640 --> 03:38:08,360
Speaker 1: not towards UH neoliberal engineering of markets and uh sort

3974
03:38:08,400 --> 03:38:14,520
Speaker 1: of reinforcement of private dictatorships, um, but towards a kind

3975
03:38:14,560 --> 03:38:19,119
Speaker 1: of like holistic control system that is still informed by

3976
03:38:19,440 --> 03:38:22,880
Speaker 1: you know, the principles of autonomy and UH and and

3977
03:38:22,879 --> 03:38:28,640
Speaker 1: and science. UM. It's it's definitely like an answer to

3978
03:38:28,760 --> 03:38:34,360
Speaker 1: the crisis of the seventies which was not taken up.

3979
03:38:34,440 --> 03:38:37,200
Speaker 1: And in that sense it is a foreclosed future, but

3980
03:38:37,280 --> 03:38:40,040
Speaker 1: of course one that we can take lessons from now. Yeah,

3981
03:38:40,320 --> 03:38:42,879
Speaker 1: I think there's something else that's very interesting me about this,

3982
03:38:43,000 --> 03:38:48,240
Speaker 1: because you know, if if you look at how like

3983
03:38:48,280 --> 03:38:50,240
Speaker 1: if you look at how the socialist block sort of

3984
03:38:50,600 --> 03:38:53,959
Speaker 1: responds to the crisis and seventies, and you know, they're

3985
03:38:54,000 --> 03:38:57,880
Speaker 1: sort of decaying the eighties, like they have this option

3986
03:38:58,000 --> 03:39:00,360
Speaker 1: available to them, right they had they had They have

3987
03:39:00,440 --> 03:39:01,520
Speaker 1: made a lot of plays, they have a lot they

3988
03:39:01,520 --> 03:39:03,440
Speaker 1: have a lot better technology than with the lands are

3989
03:39:03,520 --> 03:39:08,000
Speaker 1: using that have more resources, and every single one of

3990
03:39:08,040 --> 03:39:12,519
Speaker 1: them goes no and instead just sort of like transitions,

3991
03:39:12,560 --> 03:39:15,840
Speaker 1: you know, instead of I think it has to do

3992
03:39:15,959 --> 03:39:19,560
Speaker 1: with there there there's a line this this is this

3993
03:39:19,640 --> 03:39:23,520
Speaker 1: is like slightly before this, there's a line in UM

3994
03:39:23,879 --> 03:39:25,959
Speaker 1: a debate Maw and Joe and Li are having in

3995
03:39:26,000 --> 03:39:28,640
Speaker 1: I think it's seven. This is like the peak of

3996
03:39:29,879 --> 03:39:31,800
Speaker 1: the sort of workers led part of the culture revolution,

3997
03:39:31,879 --> 03:39:35,480
Speaker 1: like the works have taken Shanghai, and Maw and Joe

3998
03:39:35,480 --> 03:39:39,119
Speaker 1: and I are talking and they're they're trying to figure out,

3999
03:39:39,160 --> 03:39:42,520
Speaker 1: like what are they gonna do? You know, they they've

4000
03:39:42,560 --> 03:39:46,720
Speaker 1: set off this force. It's now become uncontrollable. And there's

4001
03:39:46,720 --> 03:39:49,520
Speaker 1: there's this line where they're talking about, Okay, well, if

4002
03:39:49,560 --> 03:39:50,960
Speaker 1: if we give if you give them, if you give

4003
03:39:51,000 --> 03:39:54,920
Speaker 1: them a commune, they have to have free elections, and

4004
03:39:55,200 --> 03:39:57,920
Speaker 1: Joe and La is like, well that would be anarchism.

4005
03:39:57,959 --> 03:39:59,800
Speaker 1: And then they're just like, oh god, we can't do that,

4006
03:39:59,840 --> 03:40:01,840
Speaker 1: and they never do in the end, you know that

4007
03:40:01,920 --> 03:40:03,600
Speaker 1: the end result of this whole sort of that whole

4008
03:40:03,600 --> 03:40:06,600
Speaker 1: sort of processes that trying to like instead of doing,

4009
03:40:07,520 --> 03:40:12,400
Speaker 1: instead of sort of like devolving any level of control

4010
03:40:12,480 --> 03:40:16,480
Speaker 1: down to like any of the workers who are doing things,

4011
03:40:16,520 --> 03:40:18,240
Speaker 1: they're like, Okay, well we'll just we'll just you know,

4012
03:40:18,280 --> 03:40:20,560
Speaker 1: we'll we'll we'll do capitalism instead. Well, well you will,

4013
03:40:20,680 --> 03:40:25,200
Speaker 1: you know, we'll create markets will sort of like maintain

4014
03:40:25,240 --> 03:40:32,280
Speaker 1: our firm structure, but you know, the party into it. Yeah, yeah,

4015
03:40:32,320 --> 03:40:34,480
Speaker 1: And it's it's this, it's it's a very interesting thing

4016
03:40:34,520 --> 03:40:37,280
Speaker 1: to me too, because like there have been other like

4017
03:40:38,200 --> 03:40:40,720
Speaker 1: you know, like they're like lots of socialist parties of

4018
03:40:40,800 --> 03:40:44,720
Speaker 1: sort of various like degrees of radical nous have come

4019
03:40:44,760 --> 03:40:49,720
Speaker 1: to power like since nineteen seventy three, and to my knowledge,

4020
03:40:49,800 --> 03:40:51,680
Speaker 1: not a single one of them has ever picked any

4021
03:40:51,680 --> 03:40:54,240
Speaker 1: of this stuff back up, like even even you know,

4022
03:40:54,320 --> 03:40:57,879
Speaker 1: like like the most radical sort of like like you know,

4023
03:40:57,959 --> 03:41:00,920
Speaker 1: like like like early Chavas never like touches this, like

4024
03:41:01,000 --> 03:41:04,199
Speaker 1: even like I don't like I I don't I don't

4025
03:41:04,320 --> 03:41:08,680
Speaker 1: think like I don't think the easy Lends ever done it,

4026
03:41:08,800 --> 03:41:11,400
Speaker 1: Like I mean, they have petological issues there, but like

4027
03:41:11,959 --> 03:41:16,279
Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's interesting to me that like basically

4028
03:41:16,520 --> 03:41:20,480
Speaker 1: no one who's ever taken power since has ever attempted

4029
03:41:20,520 --> 03:41:24,680
Speaker 1: it again. H which again is changed because this is

4030
03:41:24,800 --> 03:41:27,840
Speaker 1: you know, one of one of the sort of like

4031
03:41:28,080 --> 03:41:30,440
Speaker 1: this you would think this is like this is at

4032
03:41:30,520 --> 03:41:35,640
Speaker 1: least a potential solution to sort of this this this

4033
03:41:35,640 --> 03:41:38,320
Speaker 1: this problem of the stagnation and sort of collapse of

4034
03:41:38,560 --> 03:41:41,200
Speaker 1: the old sort of adults. There's a plenty of economies,

4035
03:41:41,240 --> 03:41:44,400
Speaker 1: but no one takes it up. And I'm interested to

4036
03:41:44,400 --> 03:41:47,080
Speaker 1: think what you too think about that, like why this

4037
03:41:47,120 --> 03:41:50,800
Speaker 1: doesn't happen? Yeah, there's a I think there's an interesting

4038
03:41:50,840 --> 03:41:53,960
Speaker 1: dimension of Beer's work in Chile that kind of I

4039
03:41:54,000 --> 03:42:00,160
Speaker 1: think um might provide some answers to that, which is that. Know,

4040
03:42:00,320 --> 03:42:04,720
Speaker 1: he he was in charge of setting up Cyberson, and

4041
03:42:04,840 --> 03:42:14,040
Speaker 1: Cyberson was kind of a system for optimizing the economy,

4042
03:42:14,400 --> 03:42:19,920
Speaker 1: but he had other concerns and other briefs that he

4043
03:42:20,000 --> 03:42:23,000
Speaker 1: was working on at the same time. And what he

4044
03:42:23,080 --> 03:42:29,440
Speaker 1: came to realize was that there was a layer of

4045
03:42:31,120 --> 03:42:37,760
Speaker 1: management and experts in the organization of the economy that

4046
03:42:37,959 --> 03:42:43,439
Speaker 1: were happy enough to sort of work on a Cyberson

4047
03:42:43,680 --> 03:42:50,440
Speaker 1: that was designed to improve production numbers, but they had

4048
03:42:50,640 --> 03:42:56,640
Speaker 1: real resistance to the idea of worker autonomy because of

4049
03:42:56,760 --> 03:43:02,240
Speaker 1: the because of of of wanting to maintain their their

4050
03:43:02,320 --> 03:43:08,560
Speaker 1: job privileges, and because of the prejudices of their their habitats.

4051
03:43:08,600 --> 03:43:10,600
Speaker 1: I guess you could say that what they learned when

4052
03:43:10,640 --> 03:43:13,840
Speaker 1: they were educated as engineers or managers or whatever, and

4053
03:43:14,320 --> 03:43:16,640
Speaker 1: you know, where the people who know things the workers

4054
03:43:16,680 --> 03:43:19,880
Speaker 1: don't know things, they shouldn't be in charge that kind

4055
03:43:19,879 --> 03:43:23,720
Speaker 1: of thing. And so he starts to he starts to

4056
03:43:23,840 --> 03:43:29,080
Speaker 1: realize that in order to really make cybersen effective as

4057
03:43:29,120 --> 03:43:33,640
Speaker 1: an engine for autonomy, what needs to happen is that um,

4058
03:43:34,160 --> 03:43:37,480
Speaker 1: sort of what you are describing with the Shanghai commune Uh,

4059
03:43:38,400 --> 03:43:46,400
Speaker 1: the the workers need to learn the cybernetic principles themselves

4060
03:43:46,959 --> 03:43:54,039
Speaker 1: and implement them through autonomous action. UM. And so he

4061
03:43:54,080 --> 03:43:56,880
Speaker 1: starts to try to kind of like right up, like

4062
03:43:57,360 --> 03:44:01,640
Speaker 1: right pamphlets that can be distributed to the workers so

4063
03:44:01,720 --> 03:44:07,040
Speaker 1: that the information that he has as theory is not

4064
03:44:07,320 --> 03:44:12,320
Speaker 1: being filtered through a bureaucracy, but is instead, like you know,

4065
03:44:12,560 --> 03:44:18,120
Speaker 1: involved in an educational process of self mode mobilization among

4066
03:44:18,160 --> 03:44:24,120
Speaker 1: the workers. UM. And so you know this really uh

4067
03:44:24,440 --> 03:44:27,520
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that expert knowledge is irrelevant, but it does

4068
03:44:27,600 --> 03:44:34,760
Speaker 1: mean that it does imply threatening the social privileges of

4069
03:44:34,840 --> 03:44:41,360
Speaker 1: management and expert knowledge, because in Beer's conception of management,

4070
03:44:41,959 --> 03:44:45,440
Speaker 1: management is something that is done by anyone who has

4071
03:44:45,520 --> 03:44:51,120
Speaker 1: the power to affect an organization or change and organization.

4072
03:44:51,600 --> 03:44:54,560
Speaker 1: So if the workers are able to change their organizations,

4073
03:44:54,600 --> 03:45:00,359
Speaker 1: they are also managers. That's not something exclusive to experts.

4074
03:45:00,400 --> 03:45:03,240
Speaker 1: For for Beer, management is a function. It's not a person.

4075
03:45:03,879 --> 03:45:07,360
Speaker 1: Right in Beer's ideal world, like management would just be

4076
03:45:08,160 --> 03:45:11,720
Speaker 1: these like decision nodes that emerge among among workers. I

4077
03:45:11,760 --> 03:45:14,720
Speaker 1: can like the management manager would never be a person.

4078
03:45:15,280 --> 03:45:18,519
Speaker 1: A manager would be like a kind of structural information

4079
03:45:18,560 --> 03:45:25,800
Speaker 1: processing like, um, thing that happens among people. Um. Yeah yeah.

4080
03:45:26,480 --> 03:45:28,880
Speaker 1: And so like when you see in for example, the

4081
03:45:29,000 --> 03:45:34,560
Speaker 1: USS are the option of creating a planning network, a

4082
03:45:34,600 --> 03:45:43,160
Speaker 1: computerized telecommunications planning network throughout the whole union. Um, it's

4083
03:45:43,240 --> 03:45:47,879
Speaker 1: basically shot down for two reasons. One, it would be

4084
03:45:48,000 --> 03:45:50,560
Speaker 1: very very expensive for them to develop. It would be

4085
03:45:51,120 --> 03:45:55,080
Speaker 1: on the order of of doing you know, their nuclear

4086
03:45:55,120 --> 03:46:01,280
Speaker 1: weapons development, perhaps more expensive than that. Uh. And two

4087
03:46:02,280 --> 03:46:11,080
Speaker 1: it is simply at odds with the system of like planning,

4088
03:46:12,040 --> 03:46:15,320
Speaker 1: the command economy that had that had grown up in

4089
03:46:15,360 --> 03:46:19,840
Speaker 1: the wake of the revolution. Right, it's simply at odds

4090
03:46:19,840 --> 03:46:23,800
Speaker 1: with the power of all of the factory managers, the planners,

4091
03:46:23,840 --> 03:46:26,720
Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff. It just kind of makes

4092
03:46:27,640 --> 03:46:31,280
Speaker 1: it threatens their identity and it threatens their position of power.

4093
03:46:31,720 --> 03:46:35,280
Speaker 1: And so I think that when you look at the

4094
03:46:35,360 --> 03:46:39,640
Speaker 1: socialist countries and why they didn't adopt this system, I

4095
03:46:39,680 --> 03:46:42,240
Speaker 1: think it's because they it would require the people in

4096
03:46:42,320 --> 03:46:49,320
Speaker 1: power to really rethink their entire role and identity as

4097
03:46:49,480 --> 03:46:54,960
Speaker 1: members of society. Um. Yeah, And then it's kind of

4098
03:46:55,280 --> 03:46:57,960
Speaker 1: there's a treadful irony really in that link. It's it's

4099
03:46:57,959 --> 03:47:01,279
Speaker 1: Stafford me or somebody who comes out of like bourgeois

4100
03:47:01,320 --> 03:47:04,760
Speaker 1: like management stuff, um and is deep in the pocket

4101
03:47:04,800 --> 03:47:09,200
Speaker 1: for that. He's the one who actually sincerely pursues the

4102
03:47:09,240 --> 03:47:13,400
Speaker 1: most radical project in like socialist history that we've ever seen,

4103
03:47:13,879 --> 03:47:16,640
Speaker 1: vastly more radical in its intent, and it's like kind

4104
03:47:16,640 --> 03:47:18,959
Speaker 1: of it's the beginnings of its impact than anything any

4105
03:47:19,040 --> 03:47:21,960
Speaker 1: Leninist has ever done. And it's basically because he actually

4106
03:47:22,040 --> 03:47:27,080
Speaker 1: did want real freedom and autonomy for working people, and

4107
03:47:27,240 --> 03:47:29,879
Speaker 1: your average leniness just doesn't, you know, like again, like

4108
03:47:29,920 --> 03:47:31,520
Speaker 1: to go back to the example from earlier, right that

4109
03:47:31,600 --> 03:47:36,080
Speaker 1: like when when under pressure, they will they'll do capitalism

4110
03:47:36,120 --> 03:47:40,760
Speaker 1: before they'll do anything that even resembles um, autonomy for workers,

4111
03:47:41,040 --> 03:47:43,800
Speaker 1: they will take that path rather than doing the right thing.

4112
03:47:44,280 --> 03:47:46,280
Speaker 1: You know. That does speak to the character of the thing,

4113
03:47:46,320 --> 03:47:49,000
Speaker 1: and it's it's it's it's it's it's that class interest

4114
03:47:49,440 --> 03:47:51,879
Speaker 1: basically of those kind of functionaries, right, Like, And the

4115
03:47:51,920 --> 03:47:54,120
Speaker 1: thing that makes Beery different is that he sincerely actually

4116
03:47:54,120 --> 03:47:57,720
Speaker 1: wanted to do it, you know, and the worker's autonomy

4117
03:47:57,720 --> 03:48:00,240
Speaker 1: thing wasn't just a smoke screen for him, you know. Yeah,

4118
03:48:00,280 --> 03:48:02,480
Speaker 1: And when when he starts to come up with these

4119
03:48:02,520 --> 03:48:05,959
Speaker 1: ideas of like thinking like, okay, like an economic planning

4120
03:48:06,000 --> 03:48:09,760
Speaker 1: system is not adequate, we need to go beyond that

4121
03:48:09,959 --> 03:48:14,720
Speaker 1: to thinking about the constitution of the social body, he

4122
03:48:14,720 --> 03:48:20,640
Speaker 1: he quickly finds that he's being marginalized within those circles

4123
03:48:20,680 --> 03:48:25,240
Speaker 1: of planners in the Chilean government because this is not

4124
03:48:25,480 --> 03:48:30,720
Speaker 1: something that they are enthusiastic about. They're actually quite concerned

4125
03:48:30,760 --> 03:48:33,760
Speaker 1: about this idea. Even if I end would be, you know,

4126
03:48:33,840 --> 03:48:37,000
Speaker 1: all for it, right, because he was he was very

4127
03:48:37,040 --> 03:48:42,680
Speaker 1: sincere about his interest in an autonomy, UM, there were

4128
03:48:42,720 --> 03:48:46,160
Speaker 1: still many people around beer who did not particularly like

4129
03:48:46,320 --> 03:48:51,400
Speaker 1: the idea. UM. Yeah, absolutely. And I think if we

4130
03:48:51,480 --> 03:48:54,800
Speaker 1: look at it, you know, in terms of why hasn't

4131
03:48:54,800 --> 03:48:59,280
Speaker 1: it happened since then, in in all of these intervening decades,

4132
03:48:59,840 --> 03:49:05,480
Speaker 1: I think you also have to look at, um the

4133
03:49:05,520 --> 03:49:09,760
Speaker 1: international system and the way that countries figure into it,

4134
03:49:09,880 --> 03:49:16,040
Speaker 1: because we have all of these um neoliberal structures of

4135
03:49:16,080 --> 03:49:20,200
Speaker 1: management and organization that were created in the eighties and

4136
03:49:20,320 --> 03:49:26,160
Speaker 1: nineties and early odds uh that socialist government has to

4137
03:49:26,400 --> 03:49:31,360
Speaker 1: contend with if they are to embark on a program

4138
03:49:31,440 --> 03:49:35,280
Speaker 1: like this, which isn't to say it's impossible, but what

4139
03:49:35,320 --> 03:49:39,040
Speaker 1: it does mean is that there are all these sort

4140
03:49:39,120 --> 03:49:46,880
Speaker 1: of um, highly complex regulatory and organizational structures that have

4141
03:49:47,200 --> 03:49:52,480
Speaker 1: roots deep in our societies right now, and it is

4142
03:49:52,520 --> 03:49:57,120
Speaker 1: the path of least resistance to not attempt to engage

4143
03:49:57,160 --> 03:50:01,600
Speaker 1: in a in in uh an effort to kind of

4144
03:50:01,920 --> 03:50:05,600
Speaker 1: you know, let the market atrophy as you develop an

4145
03:50:05,600 --> 03:50:10,600
Speaker 1: alternative structure for social organization, um, because all of these

4146
03:50:10,600 --> 03:50:12,880
Speaker 1: structures are there and you have to kind of like

4147
03:50:13,080 --> 03:50:17,120
Speaker 1: root them out and replace them with something new, as

4148
03:50:17,160 --> 03:50:21,640
Speaker 1: opposed to having all these ready mades of what's already there,

4149
03:50:22,280 --> 03:50:30,120
Speaker 1: the market centered solutions, the the the kind of autocratic solutions, um,

4150
03:50:30,160 --> 03:50:33,280
Speaker 1: you know, all of the management systems that have been

4151
03:50:33,360 --> 03:50:37,320
Speaker 1: developed with an autocracy in mind instead of something that

4152
03:50:37,440 --> 03:50:41,400
Speaker 1: is truly democratic and uh kind of self just dating

4153
03:50:41,960 --> 03:50:44,560
Speaker 1: mm hmm. And I think as well, um, there's there's

4154
03:50:44,560 --> 03:50:49,160
Speaker 1: a kind of other thing that like, um, like the

4155
03:50:49,800 --> 03:50:52,480
Speaker 1: left has been kind of in a very weak position

4156
03:50:52,520 --> 03:50:55,240
Speaker 1: for quite a while now, like since then, since the seventies,

4157
03:50:55,320 --> 03:51:01,240
Speaker 1: right and like um, yes, like we're we're just we're

4158
03:51:01,240 --> 03:51:04,600
Speaker 1: just starting to come around to maybe being on possibly

4159
03:51:04,640 --> 03:51:07,520
Speaker 1: an upswing. But also like I think there was this

4160
03:51:07,600 --> 03:51:09,840
Speaker 1: kind of long depressive phase at the end of the

4161
03:51:10,080 --> 03:51:13,040
Speaker 1: at the crossing in the centuries right where a lot

4162
03:51:13,080 --> 03:51:15,480
Speaker 1: of like left is kind of and this this this

4163
03:51:15,480 --> 03:51:17,880
Speaker 1: actually gets into like why some of the reasons why

4164
03:51:17,920 --> 03:51:21,000
Speaker 1: we started general into that unit that like we felt

4165
03:51:21,000 --> 03:51:22,880
Speaker 1: like we needed to bring this kind of like systems

4166
03:51:22,880 --> 03:51:27,200
Speaker 1: thinking and like technical seriousness back to the table after

4167
03:51:27,840 --> 03:51:30,840
Speaker 1: the kind of weird depressive phases where like you know,

4168
03:51:30,880 --> 03:51:34,240
Speaker 1: like say the ultra globalization stuff for the occupy stuff,

4169
03:51:34,280 --> 03:51:37,760
Speaker 1: where people kind of take an almost explicitly anti strategic

4170
03:51:37,840 --> 03:51:40,480
Speaker 1: kind of turn and like a kind of anti technical turn.

4171
03:51:41,000 --> 03:51:43,640
Speaker 1: You know, there's that kind of depressive hangover of like

4172
03:51:43,680 --> 03:51:46,520
Speaker 1: oh my god, like capital and it's it's it's technology

4173
03:51:46,640 --> 03:51:48,320
Speaker 1: is is hegemonic? Like how the funk are we ever

4174
03:51:48,360 --> 03:51:50,120
Speaker 1: going to get out of this? Like it would have

4175
03:51:50,160 --> 03:51:54,800
Speaker 1: been heard to make an argument for a scientific and

4176
03:51:54,880 --> 03:51:59,080
Speaker 1: like technical kind of fusion with with the humanist kind

4177
03:51:59,080 --> 03:52:03,200
Speaker 1: of impulses of socialism, But that's I think we're getting

4178
03:52:03,200 --> 03:52:04,800
Speaker 1: to a point where we can startish actually having that

4179
03:52:04,880 --> 03:52:07,520
Speaker 1: conversation again, like we're we're seeing a bit more of

4180
03:52:07,520 --> 03:52:09,880
Speaker 1: a turn towards that, and it can turn towards like

4181
03:52:09,920 --> 03:52:13,000
Speaker 1: this kind of serious kind of like more and more

4182
03:52:13,040 --> 03:52:16,320
Speaker 1: serious kind of discussion of like hey, like okay, like okay,

4183
03:52:16,480 --> 03:52:18,960
Speaker 1: like we we we we fucking hate the current order

4184
03:52:19,000 --> 03:52:20,720
Speaker 1: of things. We want to we want to see it

4185
03:52:20,760 --> 03:52:23,480
Speaker 1: gotten rid of what would we actually replace it with?

4186
03:52:23,560 --> 03:52:25,720
Speaker 1: Like functionally, how would things actually work? Like I think

4187
03:52:25,760 --> 03:52:27,600
Speaker 1: those kind of conversations are coming back on the table

4188
03:52:27,640 --> 03:52:30,240
Speaker 1: in a way that those were just impossible in the nineties,

4189
03:52:30,560 --> 03:52:33,600
Speaker 1: like after the Berlin Wall came down or whatever. They

4190
03:52:33,640 --> 03:52:35,720
Speaker 1: were impossible a couple of years ago. You know. Yeah,

4191
03:52:35,800 --> 03:52:42,800
Speaker 1: the the market as the fundament of society basically seemed

4192
03:52:42,840 --> 03:52:48,600
Speaker 1: to be invincible at that time. Um, And there was

4193
03:52:48,640 --> 03:52:56,000
Speaker 1: a lot of just sort of wrongheaded assumptions about what

4194
03:52:56,280 --> 03:53:00,320
Speaker 1: was and wasn't true about it and about society as

4195
03:53:00,320 --> 03:53:03,080
Speaker 1: a whole. And you know, we've had a lot of

4196
03:53:03,200 --> 03:53:09,160
Speaker 1: chaos in the years since then. That was um that

4197
03:53:09,240 --> 03:53:13,000
Speaker 1: affected not just the countries that we were you know,

4198
03:53:13,600 --> 03:53:18,640
Speaker 1: being restructured by the I m F, but actually came

4199
03:53:18,680 --> 03:53:23,160
Speaker 1: and affected the core of the world economy as well. Uh.

4200
03:53:23,200 --> 03:53:26,600
Speaker 1: And I think that that that's sort of like, you know,

4201
03:53:26,640 --> 03:53:28,960
Speaker 1: in the same way that World War One kind of

4202
03:53:29,000 --> 03:53:33,800
Speaker 1: disproved the idea of the white man's invincibility and superiority,

4203
03:53:34,200 --> 03:53:39,600
Speaker 1: like having those like market chaos dynamics come home to

4204
03:53:39,760 --> 03:53:43,800
Speaker 1: roost in the core of the world system has has

4205
03:53:43,960 --> 03:53:47,840
Speaker 1: undermined that invincibility, That that that idea that oh, the

4206
03:53:47,920 --> 03:53:50,360
Speaker 1: market is just naturally the best and there's nothing that

4207
03:53:50,400 --> 03:53:53,000
Speaker 1: could possibly be better. At the same time that we

4208
03:53:53,080 --> 03:53:57,360
Speaker 1: have all of this technological development that's happening, um, you

4209
03:53:57,400 --> 03:54:01,160
Speaker 1: know in our economy that could be used for something

4210
03:54:01,440 --> 03:54:03,800
Speaker 1: different as opposed to you know, I don't know, making

4211
03:54:03,920 --> 03:54:06,960
Speaker 1: n f T s or something. Yeah, absolutely right, that

4212
03:54:07,040 --> 03:54:09,280
Speaker 1: that's all super important. I think that that kind of refines,

4213
03:54:09,360 --> 03:54:12,120
Speaker 1: like my previous thought is refining in my head now

4214
03:54:12,240 --> 03:54:16,280
Speaker 1: like that like right now, Um that that kind of

4215
03:54:16,280 --> 03:54:18,760
Speaker 1: market chaos and especially even like the chaos of like

4216
03:54:19,280 --> 03:54:24,680
Speaker 1: the system's response to COVID and stuff really puts um

4217
03:54:24,720 --> 03:54:26,880
Speaker 1: like in general, and for the left in particular, it

4218
03:54:26,920 --> 03:54:28,960
Speaker 1: puts like the question of governance back on the table

4219
03:54:29,000 --> 03:54:30,240
Speaker 1: in a way that it had kind of been off

4220
03:54:30,240 --> 03:54:31,920
Speaker 1: the table for a while. Like I think there was

4221
03:54:32,120 --> 03:54:34,960
Speaker 1: there was a period on the left where like left

4222
03:54:35,000 --> 03:54:38,200
Speaker 1: activity was kind of like railing against governance. Like it

4223
03:54:38,320 --> 03:54:40,600
Speaker 1: was like we we want freedom from governance and that

4224
03:54:40,640 --> 03:54:42,360
Speaker 1: sort of thing. Right, And I'm not going to say

4225
03:54:42,400 --> 03:54:44,680
Speaker 1: those are necessarily bad impulses, right, but I think they're

4226
03:54:44,800 --> 03:54:46,720
Speaker 1: also kind of a bit wrong headed as well. Right,

4227
03:54:46,720 --> 03:54:50,560
Speaker 1: But like the kind of reality is that, like, for

4228
03:54:50,560 --> 03:54:52,760
Speaker 1: for human life to flourish and for our lives to flourish,

4229
03:54:52,800 --> 03:54:56,080
Speaker 1: we need governance. And like because like governance actually like

4230
03:54:56,120 --> 03:54:58,640
Speaker 1: as a word has the same route as cybernetics does.

4231
03:54:58,960 --> 03:55:03,960
Speaker 1: So kaiberneties, the Greek word becomes kubernettes, becomes cybernetics, right,

4232
03:55:04,440 --> 03:55:08,560
Speaker 1: but that's also the root of governor, so kuberner, kubernator,

4233
03:55:09,040 --> 03:55:11,560
Speaker 1: those are the roots of governance. So governance and cybernetics

4234
03:55:11,560 --> 03:55:14,440
Speaker 1: are one and the same kind of concept. Um And

4235
03:55:14,520 --> 03:55:17,640
Speaker 1: this question of like if we intend to create a

4236
03:55:17,640 --> 03:55:21,200
Speaker 1: world of self governance, um that is effective, it's viable

4237
03:55:21,280 --> 03:55:25,360
Speaker 1: in Beer's terminology, like viable self governance, that what we're

4238
03:55:25,400 --> 03:55:30,640
Speaker 1: proposing is opposed to the chaotic vortex of nonsense that

4239
03:55:30,720 --> 03:55:33,080
Speaker 1: we have to put up with right now. And that's

4240
03:55:33,120 --> 03:55:34,920
Speaker 1: back on the table in a big way. That like

4241
03:55:35,240 --> 03:55:37,320
Speaker 1: because I think especially with with COVID, people look at

4242
03:55:37,360 --> 03:55:42,280
Speaker 1: like just the sheer idiocy and ineptitude and chaos of

4243
03:55:42,400 --> 03:55:47,320
Speaker 1: our governments and realizing like, oh, those are decrepit, completely

4244
03:55:47,320 --> 03:55:50,720
Speaker 1: screwed up systems and in parat because their goal is

4245
03:55:50,800 --> 03:55:54,000
Speaker 1: the maintenance of capital accumulation. So this gets us back

4246
03:55:54,040 --> 03:55:57,360
Speaker 1: to the goal directed behavior cybernetics, right, Like the steersman

4247
03:55:57,720 --> 03:56:00,760
Speaker 1: steers the boat towards a goal, right, and it's it's

4248
03:56:00,760 --> 03:56:02,920
Speaker 1: always about or like a you know, a serponetic device

4249
03:56:02,960 --> 03:56:05,680
Speaker 1: like a thermostat has a goal temperature that is trying

4250
03:56:05,720 --> 03:56:09,640
Speaker 1: to regulate the temperature to water towards um You know,

4251
03:56:09,840 --> 03:56:13,680
Speaker 1: we have these governance systems that are completely awful. They're

4252
03:56:13,680 --> 03:56:17,160
Speaker 1: just like not suitable for like the regulation of human life,

4253
03:56:17,200 --> 03:56:21,040
Speaker 1: for flourishing. They're only suitable for the regulation of this

4254
03:56:21,120 --> 03:56:25,040
Speaker 1: insane system that just keeps capital accumulation going, like that's

4255
03:56:25,080 --> 03:56:28,520
Speaker 1: the control variable that it regulates. And we're now in

4256
03:56:28,560 --> 03:56:30,320
Speaker 1: a position, we're on the left, like more and more

4257
03:56:30,320 --> 03:56:32,800
Speaker 1: of us are saying like what we're proposing is not

4258
03:56:32,880 --> 03:56:37,040
Speaker 1: like a sort of magical escape from governance. We're proposing really,

4259
03:56:37,280 --> 03:56:40,200
Speaker 1: you know, we should have samee governance and it turns

4260
03:56:40,200 --> 03:56:44,720
Speaker 1: out that same governance is bottom up self organized governance. Um.

4261
03:56:44,760 --> 03:56:47,520
Speaker 1: And that's that's both the moral position and a technical position,

4262
03:56:47,880 --> 03:56:50,200
Speaker 1: and I think they're both of those. The moral and

4263
03:56:50,200 --> 03:56:54,640
Speaker 1: technical valances feed off each other. Like we're we're we're

4264
03:56:54,680 --> 03:56:56,640
Speaker 1: able to be the serious people in the room. This

4265
03:56:56,640 --> 03:56:59,000
Speaker 1: this is a very big change of pace right for us,

4266
03:56:59,040 --> 03:57:01,560
Speaker 1: because like for a while we were railing against like

4267
03:57:01,640 --> 03:57:04,000
Speaker 1: the very serious people of like the Centrists and like

4268
03:57:04,000 --> 03:57:07,080
Speaker 1: the fucking Blairites and the Clintonite sort of people. We

4269
03:57:07,160 --> 03:57:11,320
Speaker 1: are the serious people now saying what what this what

4270
03:57:11,400 --> 03:57:14,920
Speaker 1: this system actually does is absurd and ludicrous, and it

4271
03:57:14,960 --> 03:57:18,840
Speaker 1: needs to be dismantled and rebuilt with a totally different

4272
03:57:18,880 --> 03:57:23,679
Speaker 1: like feedback circuits, a different kind of goal orientation, um.

4273
03:57:23,760 --> 03:57:27,040
Speaker 1: And it needs to be oriented towards human flourishing. And

4274
03:57:27,560 --> 03:57:29,600
Speaker 1: that's it turns out there's a science of doing that,

4275
03:57:29,680 --> 03:57:32,520
Speaker 1: and it's called cybernetics, you know. And we also have

4276
03:57:33,160 --> 03:57:39,600
Speaker 1: a runaway ecological crisis where we learn about we see

4277
03:57:39,680 --> 03:57:48,000
Speaker 1: that you know, like the capitalist market system is absolutely

4278
03:57:48,120 --> 03:57:51,360
Speaker 1: leading us all to death and the earth to death.

4279
03:57:51,640 --> 03:57:55,960
Speaker 1: And so it is human flourishing. But we also are

4280
03:57:56,080 --> 03:58:01,200
Speaker 1: concerned with the flourishing of life in general. Um. So

4281
03:58:01,400 --> 03:58:05,440
Speaker 1: I think that that that is something that wasn't as

4282
03:58:05,560 --> 03:58:08,720
Speaker 1: much on the horizon in the seventies. You know, I

4283
03:58:08,760 --> 03:58:11,480
Speaker 1: certainly think you know, people were thinking about it. But

4284
03:58:12,320 --> 03:58:19,000
Speaker 1: breaking down this barrier between economics uh and UH and ecology,

4285
03:58:19,120 --> 03:58:22,840
Speaker 1: I think is a very cybernetic impulse and I think

4286
03:58:22,880 --> 03:58:25,080
Speaker 1: one that you know, we need to keep working at

4287
03:58:25,240 --> 03:58:29,040
Speaker 1: because like you know, whenever we think about these things

4288
03:58:29,040 --> 03:58:36,440
Speaker 1: is separate domains were already uh, we're already engendering more

4289
03:58:36,480 --> 03:58:41,040
Speaker 1: destruction of the environment. Yeah, yeah, I think cyberenetics and

4290
03:58:41,080 --> 03:58:44,240
Speaker 1: miltill help us in that kind of link um on

4291
03:58:44,400 --> 03:58:46,800
Speaker 1: a kind of for left projects, like on an aggressive

4292
03:58:46,840 --> 03:58:50,640
Speaker 1: footing of like if we recognize that like the capital

4293
03:58:50,640 --> 03:58:54,000
Speaker 1: and its kind of governance system is it is cybernetic,

4294
03:58:54,120 --> 03:58:56,200
Speaker 1: like it has its own feedback circuits and like saying

4295
03:58:56,200 --> 03:59:00,400
Speaker 1: that the explosive feedback circuit that we're on with with ecology, right, Like,

4296
03:59:00,600 --> 03:59:03,120
Speaker 1: how do you intervene in a system to halt and

4297
03:59:03,200 --> 03:59:07,280
Speaker 1: disrupt those circuits celested so as to disintegrate the system?

4298
03:59:07,480 --> 03:59:09,320
Speaker 1: Is um is something like you can you can learn

4299
03:59:09,320 --> 03:59:11,120
Speaker 1: a lot from cyran NICs to to get lessons on

4300
03:59:11,160 --> 03:59:14,280
Speaker 1: how to to intervene there. The last thing I want

4301
03:59:14,320 --> 03:59:19,760
Speaker 1: to talk about is just what is the society that

4302
03:59:19,920 --> 03:59:22,520
Speaker 1: is non capitalist and based off of sort of cyberbetic

4303
03:59:22,560 --> 03:59:26,480
Speaker 1: governance principles. What does that look like for just a person?

4304
03:59:27,280 --> 03:59:29,160
Speaker 1: Because I think you know this, this has been one

4305
03:59:29,200 --> 03:59:33,600
Speaker 1: of the big sort of like political challenges of the

4306
03:59:33,680 --> 03:59:36,920
Speaker 1: last you know, fifty years. It's just the complete foreclosure

4307
03:59:36,920 --> 03:59:38,840
Speaker 1: of the ability to even just sort of imagine a

4308
03:59:38,920 --> 03:59:44,160
Speaker 1: system that's not this mm hmm, yeah, I think it.

4309
03:59:44,160 --> 03:59:52,720
Speaker 1: It means UM In the first instance, it means a

4310
03:59:52,800 --> 04:00:00,720
Speaker 1: different orientation to your workplace and your community, right, because

4311
04:00:03,360 --> 04:00:09,440
Speaker 1: when you grow up in a society where um power

4312
04:00:09,640 --> 04:00:14,680
Speaker 1: is exercise autocratically, it has an infantilizing effect on on

4313
04:00:14,720 --> 04:00:19,760
Speaker 1: you as an individual. UM. And uh, you know, maybe

4314
04:00:20,320 --> 04:00:25,680
Speaker 1: your relationship to work, is your workplace is one of

4315
04:00:25,760 --> 04:00:31,320
Speaker 1: sort of emotional detachment or of tantrum throwing, right, because

4316
04:00:31,360 --> 04:00:34,720
Speaker 1: these are these are reactions, These are natural reactions to

4317
04:00:34,840 --> 04:00:42,720
Speaker 1: being in an abusive environment. UM. But if you are

4318
04:00:42,760 --> 04:00:50,320
Speaker 1: in a system where the work of management is not

4319
04:00:50,480 --> 04:00:54,360
Speaker 1: only open to you but expected of you, you have

4320
04:00:54,480 --> 04:00:58,640
Speaker 1: a different orientation to that workplace, to the community you're

4321
04:00:58,720 --> 04:01:03,080
Speaker 1: in because it's your responsibility. If you don't do it,

4322
04:01:04,440 --> 04:01:08,920
Speaker 1: you know, you're going to lose your autonomy and also

4323
04:01:09,240 --> 04:01:11,640
Speaker 1: you're going to have real problems that you have to

4324
04:01:11,680 --> 04:01:15,400
Speaker 1: grapple with as an individual. So there is a responsibility

4325
04:01:15,440 --> 04:01:19,320
Speaker 1: that comes there. But also like that means an opening

4326
04:01:19,400 --> 04:01:23,440
Speaker 1: up of horizons in terms of well, things don't always

4327
04:01:23,520 --> 04:01:25,640
Speaker 1: have to be the same, Things don't always have to

4328
04:01:25,640 --> 04:01:29,200
Speaker 1: be handed down to you for management on high. They

4329
04:01:29,200 --> 04:01:34,240
Speaker 1: can actually change, Like you can see the possibilities in

4330
04:01:34,280 --> 04:01:36,680
Speaker 1: front of you, You can plan for the future in

4331
04:01:36,760 --> 04:01:41,200
Speaker 1: your context, and you can have that meaningful freedom in

4332
04:01:41,280 --> 04:01:44,960
Speaker 1: your life and be you know, a a full human

4333
04:01:45,040 --> 04:01:49,400
Speaker 1: being in that sense, right, um, And so I think

4334
04:01:49,400 --> 04:01:54,360
Speaker 1: that that's a very core every day change that you

4335
04:01:54,400 --> 04:01:59,160
Speaker 1: could see, um in terms of you know, sort of

4336
04:01:59,200 --> 04:02:03,080
Speaker 1: your horizon of where you might work or what you

4337
04:02:03,160 --> 04:02:06,560
Speaker 1: might do. You know, you could expect that there would

4338
04:02:06,640 --> 04:02:12,560
Speaker 1: be more possibilities for each person to be like quote

4339
04:02:12,600 --> 04:02:17,240
Speaker 1: unquote entrepreneurial right to to have initiative in their life

4340
04:02:17,680 --> 04:02:21,720
Speaker 1: and be able to envision and create things around them

4341
04:02:21,800 --> 04:02:26,160
Speaker 1: that uh, you know they can't do right now because

4342
04:02:27,040 --> 04:02:30,240
Speaker 1: they either are stuck in a job that doesn't give

4343
04:02:30,280 --> 04:02:35,480
Speaker 1: them that freedom or they are actually not even able

4344
04:02:35,560 --> 04:02:38,400
Speaker 1: to have a job right now where they can have

4345
04:02:38,440 --> 04:02:45,760
Speaker 1: a reasonable expectation of survival because their workplace is oriented

4346
04:02:45,800 --> 04:02:49,280
Speaker 1: around just making sure the work gets done and you know,

4347
04:02:49,400 --> 04:02:54,160
Speaker 1: the consequences be damned. UM. So I think that you know,

4348
04:02:54,320 --> 04:03:00,760
Speaker 1: that is another area that's important. UM. And that sort

4349
04:03:00,800 --> 04:03:06,520
Speaker 1: of freedom of management um extends all the way up

4350
04:03:06,600 --> 04:03:11,760
Speaker 1: to uh, you know, working in different kinds of capacities

4351
04:03:11,840 --> 04:03:14,120
Speaker 1: or jobs. Like some people in kind of a middle

4352
04:03:14,720 --> 04:03:18,360
Speaker 1: middle ranking area in a corporation these days might get

4353
04:03:18,400 --> 04:03:22,200
Speaker 1: shuffled around from department to department to try to kind

4354
04:03:22,240 --> 04:03:26,880
Speaker 1: of get a well rounded understanding of what the corporation

4355
04:03:27,200 --> 04:03:32,600
Speaker 1: is uh and how it functions. But you know, we

4356
04:03:32,640 --> 04:03:36,800
Speaker 1: can kind of expect that these roles would be more

4357
04:03:36,800 --> 04:03:42,080
Speaker 1: open to everybody because again, you know, a system in

4358
04:03:42,120 --> 04:03:45,640
Speaker 1: the v s M is not a person. A system

4359
04:03:45,720 --> 04:03:48,800
Speaker 1: is a function and that function should be fulfilled in

4360
04:03:48,840 --> 04:03:53,840
Speaker 1: a way that is as flexible as possible. UM. So

4361
04:03:53,920 --> 04:03:56,560
Speaker 1: there's a lot less kind of well, I'm stuck in

4362
04:03:56,600 --> 04:03:59,080
Speaker 1: accounting and that's my life now, and that's all that

4363
04:03:59,400 --> 04:04:02,360
Speaker 1: that all ever be. Of course, there are limits to education,

4364
04:04:02,400 --> 04:04:06,200
Speaker 1: their limits to specialization, all of that kind of stuff like,

4365
04:04:06,240 --> 04:04:08,880
Speaker 1: you know, it takes time to learn these things, but

4366
04:04:08,920 --> 04:04:12,320
Speaker 1: you could expect some more flexibility there without having that

4367
04:04:12,520 --> 04:04:16,080
Speaker 1: terror of oh yeah, you know, in the neroliberal era,

4368
04:04:16,400 --> 04:04:19,280
Speaker 1: everybody's expected to have like fifteen jobs in the course

4369
04:04:19,320 --> 04:04:22,840
Speaker 1: of their quote unquote career. But also each of those

4370
04:04:22,920 --> 04:04:25,280
Speaker 1: jobs is going to be interspersed with a period of

4371
04:04:25,360 --> 04:04:29,560
Speaker 1: absolute terror as they live with unemployed in a society

4372
04:04:29,600 --> 04:04:34,200
Speaker 1: without a safety net. Right, Um. I think that that's

4373
04:04:34,240 --> 04:04:39,360
Speaker 1: that's you know, those are real consequences for everybody's life.

4374
04:04:39,800 --> 04:04:43,640
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, yeah, absolutely, And I think like at

4375
04:04:43,640 --> 04:04:45,920
Speaker 1: a very very high level, the way Beer puts it

4376
04:04:46,040 --> 04:04:49,560
Speaker 1: as that we are trapped in this kind of crazy

4377
04:04:49,600 --> 04:04:53,280
Speaker 1: system that's like it's control variable as profits, like that's

4378
04:04:53,320 --> 04:04:56,640
Speaker 1: the little variable that it's it's like doing feedback onto

4379
04:04:56,720 --> 04:05:02,040
Speaker 1: to maintain um. Where is what we're proposing is like

4380
04:05:02,400 --> 04:05:07,240
Speaker 1: the sort of cyberanetic future. We a society that's optimizing

4381
04:05:07,640 --> 04:05:10,640
Speaker 1: flourishing Like what what beer Beer? The word he uses

4382
04:05:10,680 --> 04:05:13,760
Speaker 1: a u demony, which is borrowing from Aristotle, just like

4383
04:05:14,160 --> 04:05:18,000
Speaker 1: flourishing um. And yeah, a lot a lot of stuff

4384
04:05:18,000 --> 04:05:20,160
Speaker 1: flows out from that, like to imagine a world where

4385
04:05:21,960 --> 04:05:24,600
Speaker 1: because we we all feel it, right, that like everything

4386
04:05:24,600 --> 04:05:27,800
Speaker 1: around us is kind of like micro tuned as like

4387
04:05:27,840 --> 04:05:30,520
Speaker 1: a little feedback loop to keep money and profit flowing

4388
04:05:31,160 --> 04:05:34,280
Speaker 1: and to keep capital accumulating. Just imagine a world where

4389
04:05:34,280 --> 04:05:38,720
Speaker 1: that's just not true anymore, and the the sort of

4390
04:05:39,040 --> 04:05:41,920
Speaker 1: social infrastructure that you grow up in is an infrastructure

4391
04:05:41,920 --> 04:05:48,560
Speaker 1: that instead optimizes for the flourishing of life. Yeah. Um,

4392
04:05:49,080 --> 04:05:51,400
Speaker 1: And I think you know, when we we we look

4393
04:05:51,440 --> 04:05:54,160
Speaker 1: at sort of the broader patterns of society today, we

4394
04:05:54,240 --> 04:05:57,720
Speaker 1: see all of these hair brained schemes that you know,

4395
04:05:58,680 --> 04:06:02,240
Speaker 1: very rich men are embarking on and they're they're setting

4396
04:06:02,280 --> 04:06:05,800
Speaker 1: the agenda for society. You know, we're that you know,

4397
04:06:05,920 --> 04:06:08,720
Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg is telling us that the metaverse is the

4398
04:06:08,760 --> 04:06:11,600
Speaker 1: future and you just have to get on board with this,

4399
04:06:11,760 --> 04:06:17,320
Speaker 1: even though anyone can see that this idea is patently ridiculous. Um.

4400
04:06:17,440 --> 04:06:23,320
Speaker 1: And in a society where that kind of management, that

4401
04:06:23,440 --> 04:06:28,640
Speaker 1: kind of money power doesn't exist anymore, Like you don't

4402
04:06:28,720 --> 04:06:32,600
Speaker 1: have to live under that kind of future horizon anymore,

4403
04:06:32,600 --> 04:06:36,040
Speaker 1: where it's like eight men with absurd amounts of money

4404
04:06:36,400 --> 04:06:40,640
Speaker 1: cook up, you know, ridiculous schemes and everybody has to

4405
04:06:40,680 --> 04:06:43,040
Speaker 1: follow them, just like they were following the orders of

4406
04:06:43,080 --> 04:06:46,840
Speaker 1: pharaoh back in the day. I think, do not be

4407
04:06:46,960 --> 04:06:49,760
Speaker 1: ruled by pharaohs is as kind of places and he too,

4408
04:06:50,560 --> 04:06:52,120
Speaker 1: leave off unless you tell if anything else do you

4409
04:06:52,160 --> 04:06:54,840
Speaker 1: want to get to? Okay, there's there's one little line

4410
04:06:54,920 --> 04:06:57,680
Speaker 1: from Beer's book what it's actually a set of presentation.

4411
04:06:57,680 --> 04:07:00,280
Speaker 1: It is called designing Freedom that I absolutely love. Cracks

4412
04:07:00,280 --> 04:07:01,320
Speaker 1: me up every time I read it, so I'm just

4413
04:07:01,360 --> 04:07:03,080
Speaker 1: gonna need to for the listeners. It gives you a

4414
04:07:03,120 --> 04:07:06,520
Speaker 1: sense of his absolute like ridiculous radicalism, like these off

4415
04:07:06,560 --> 04:07:09,800
Speaker 1: the fucking chats with this stuff. Um. At some point

4416
04:07:09,880 --> 04:07:12,760
Speaker 1: he says, and I'm quoting here, every time we hear

4417
04:07:12,800 --> 04:07:15,040
Speaker 1: that a proposal will destroy society as we know it,

4418
04:07:15,160 --> 04:07:19,160
Speaker 1: we should have the courage to say, thank God at last. Yeah.

4419
04:07:21,240 --> 04:07:27,280
Speaker 1: Really a real maniac, ye yeah. And and and he

4420
04:07:27,440 --> 04:07:30,560
Speaker 1: had this this dictum of if it works, it's out

4421
04:07:30,560 --> 04:07:35,600
Speaker 1: of date. So you know, it's it's like like, yeah,

4422
04:07:35,640 --> 04:07:41,640
Speaker 1: don't be complacent, you know, don't be a traditionalist. And

4423
04:07:41,720 --> 04:07:43,720
Speaker 1: I think also that there's been there's been really horrific

4424
04:07:43,760 --> 04:07:46,440
Speaker 1: consequences of sort of the right being the ones to

4425
04:07:46,600 --> 04:07:51,200
Speaker 1: like take the urge for creative destruction. Just like you know,

4426
04:07:51,280 --> 04:07:55,520
Speaker 1: what was that line there's some I forget some some

4427
04:07:55,600 --> 04:07:58,040
Speaker 1: venture capitalist things like move fast and break things, and

4428
04:07:58,080 --> 04:07:59,960
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, so when they move fast the thing

4429
04:08:00,080 --> 04:08:05,440
Speaker 1: they breaks us. But you know we can move faster

4430
04:08:05,720 --> 04:08:10,280
Speaker 1: and break things that are bad. Yeah, definite to a

4431
04:08:10,320 --> 04:08:13,920
Speaker 1: creative and playful kind of motive, being right that like

4432
04:08:14,120 --> 04:08:15,680
Speaker 1: you you might be able to work, wake up in

4433
04:08:15,680 --> 04:08:17,800
Speaker 1: the morning and think, God, you know, it would be

4434
04:08:17,800 --> 04:08:19,600
Speaker 1: really cool if we could have like a like a

4435
04:08:19,680 --> 04:08:22,240
Speaker 1: child care nurse ory just like like out in the

4436
04:08:22,320 --> 04:08:24,600
Speaker 1: out in the common area between these buildings and stuff,

4437
04:08:24,640 --> 04:08:27,360
Speaker 1: and like go to your go to your local like

4438
04:08:27,480 --> 04:08:30,520
Speaker 1: your your workers council or whatever, and have really plausible

4439
04:08:30,720 --> 04:08:34,040
Speaker 1: like way of actually getting that and like collaborating with

4440
04:08:34,040 --> 04:08:36,320
Speaker 1: people to make that happen, and then being like, Okay,

4441
04:08:36,320 --> 04:08:38,520
Speaker 1: well we'll try it as an experiment for twelve months.

4442
04:08:38,520 --> 04:08:40,840
Speaker 1: We'll keep we'll see how it goes. And then there's

4443
04:08:41,160 --> 04:08:43,240
Speaker 1: a feedback cycle where it's like, Okay, some aspect of

4444
04:08:43,240 --> 04:08:45,320
Speaker 1: this design didn't really work out. We'll we'll go talk

4445
04:08:45,320 --> 04:08:47,520
Speaker 1: about it some more, and then it aerate on that

4446
04:08:47,600 --> 04:08:51,880
Speaker 1: and that's that's like as it's it's an entrepreneurialism that

4447
04:08:51,920 --> 04:08:55,080
Speaker 1: doesn't bear much resemblance to what that word means right now.

4448
04:08:55,160 --> 04:08:59,000
Speaker 1: It just means that human beings, living real things, real workers,

4449
04:08:59,000 --> 04:09:02,200
Speaker 1: will be able to actually control their environments in this

4450
04:09:02,640 --> 04:09:05,840
Speaker 1: substance of their lives in a meaningful length. Yeah, and

4451
04:09:05,960 --> 04:09:11,320
Speaker 1: like this, I think you know, back in the nineties

4452
04:09:12,000 --> 04:09:15,680
Speaker 1: early odds, sort of before the two thous crisis, in

4453
04:09:15,960 --> 04:09:21,000
Speaker 1: the hoary days of your um it's there was a

4454
04:09:21,040 --> 04:09:29,280
Speaker 1: lot of talk about flexibility and dynamicism and adaptation. But

4455
04:09:29,600 --> 04:09:34,880
Speaker 1: what that always meant was we make decisions about what's

4456
04:09:34,920 --> 04:09:38,560
Speaker 1: going to change, and you have to adapt, right. It

4457
04:09:38,640 --> 04:09:41,680
Speaker 1: was it was it was, you know, always this arbitrary

4458
04:09:41,760 --> 04:09:45,760
Speaker 1: power from outside that would just be changing the social fabric,

4459
04:09:45,880 --> 04:09:49,680
Speaker 1: and you had to be flexible enough to cope with

4460
04:09:49,800 --> 04:09:53,960
Speaker 1: what you were being subjected to. It's very different if

4461
04:09:55,000 --> 04:10:01,480
Speaker 1: you know the planning is being done by you for you,

4462
04:10:02,200 --> 04:10:07,560
Speaker 1: and you're moving towards adaptation and flexibility out of a

4463
04:10:07,600 --> 04:10:11,800
Speaker 1: sense of oh, yeah, this would be better and I'm

4464
04:10:11,840 --> 04:10:15,280
Speaker 1: going to adapt to be in a better state to

4465
04:10:16,080 --> 04:10:19,760
Speaker 1: to work with my environment, uh, in a more healthy

4466
04:10:20,000 --> 04:10:23,560
Speaker 1: and a more flourishing way, as opposed to just like

4467
04:10:24,000 --> 04:10:26,200
Speaker 1: oh yeah, you've got to work three jobs now, so

4468
04:10:26,320 --> 04:10:30,320
Speaker 1: figure it out right, that's a very different kind of flexibility,

4469
04:10:30,440 --> 04:10:33,440
Speaker 1: very different kind of adaptation. And you know, those things

4470
04:10:33,440 --> 04:10:35,920
Speaker 1: have sort of become dirty words in some ways, but

4471
04:10:36,240 --> 04:10:38,360
Speaker 1: they are really core to the way that we all

4472
04:10:38,400 --> 04:10:41,360
Speaker 1: exist as organisms in the world, and they don't have

4473
04:10:41,480 --> 04:10:46,960
Speaker 1: to be just synonyms for abuse. Mm hmm exactly. Yeah,

4474
04:10:47,000 --> 04:10:49,120
Speaker 1: I think okay, we can take this as a place

4475
04:10:49,160 --> 04:10:51,920
Speaker 1: to leave off. Yeah, do you two have stuff you

4476
04:10:51,960 --> 04:10:53,840
Speaker 1: want to look and I know you you want to plug,

4477
04:10:53,880 --> 04:10:56,120
Speaker 1: but plug the things that you want people to listen

4478
04:10:56,160 --> 04:11:01,280
Speaker 1: to because they are UM. Yeah, we're General intellecting It. Um.

4479
04:11:01,320 --> 04:11:03,680
Speaker 1: You go to General intellecting It dot nets and it's

4480
04:11:03,680 --> 04:11:06,280
Speaker 1: got all the episodes on there. We're on Twitter as

4481
04:11:06,360 --> 04:11:09,680
Speaker 1: g I unite pod um. Yeah, you can find us

4482
04:11:09,680 --> 04:11:12,120
Speaker 1: on all the podcast things. UM. We're also part of

4483
04:11:12,160 --> 04:11:16,280
Speaker 1: a podcast network called emancipation and so that's emancipation dot

4484
04:11:16,320 --> 04:11:20,480
Speaker 1: Network on the web. UM. And yeah, some really excellent

4485
04:11:20,480 --> 04:11:25,400
Speaker 1: shows on there. We were collaborating with Swampside Chats and

4486
04:11:25,880 --> 04:11:29,800
Speaker 1: um Mortal Science, from Alpha to Omega Jumps Utopia. They're

4487
04:11:29,880 --> 04:11:33,920
Speaker 1: they're really wonderful shows that are all UM. It's it's

4488
04:11:33,920 --> 04:11:36,200
Speaker 1: a variety of different sort of takes on things. But

4489
04:11:36,360 --> 04:11:39,120
Speaker 1: like UM, there's a sort of common there's a sort

4490
04:11:39,120 --> 04:11:43,080
Speaker 1: of spiritual common grounds they all have. Um, yeah, we

4491
04:11:43,080 --> 04:11:51,600
Speaker 1: we all were all interested in thinking systematically. We're all

4492
04:11:51,640 --> 04:11:56,160
Speaker 1: interested in emancipation, as the network name says. We're all

4493
04:11:56,240 --> 04:12:02,640
Speaker 1: interested in sort of building something going forward, trying to

4494
04:12:02,760 --> 04:12:09,760
Speaker 1: construct an alternative as opposed to simply getting caught up

4495
04:12:09,840 --> 04:12:13,800
Speaker 1: in day to day politics or getting caught up in

4496
04:12:14,400 --> 04:12:19,760
Speaker 1: uh dumer mentality. Yeah. So yeah, it's it's systematic, it's critical,

4497
04:12:19,840 --> 04:12:22,000
Speaker 1: but it's also constructive, and I think that's what we're

4498
04:12:22,000 --> 04:12:25,400
Speaker 1: all trying to do there. Yeah. Yeah, Well, thank you

4499
04:12:25,440 --> 04:12:29,040
Speaker 1: too both for coming on. Thank you. It's thanks for

4500
04:12:29,040 --> 04:12:31,760
Speaker 1: having us. Yeah, this this has been make it happen

4501
04:12:31,840 --> 04:12:35,760
Speaker 1: here you can find us that happened here pod in places.

4502
04:12:36,320 --> 04:12:38,920
Speaker 1: There's also stuff atquals on Media that you can also

4503
04:12:38,960 --> 04:12:42,400
Speaker 1: find in those same places and possibly also different ones. Yeah,

4504
04:12:42,400 --> 04:12:45,240
Speaker 1: we have a we have a website. Everyone asked me

4505
04:12:45,280 --> 04:12:48,520
Speaker 1: for my sources every single week and they get posted

4506
04:12:48,560 --> 04:12:53,000
Speaker 1: there once a month. So yeah, go go to quoson

4507
04:12:53,080 --> 04:12:56,520
Speaker 1: media dot com and you will find all of the

4508
04:12:56,520 --> 04:12:58,080
Speaker 1: sources so you don't have to DM me every week.

4509
04:13:00,160 --> 04:13:17,640
Speaker 1: All right, Bye, Hey, we'll be back Monday with more

4510
04:13:17,680 --> 04:13:20,360
Speaker 1: episodes every week from now until the heat death of

4511
04:13:20,400 --> 04:13:23,160
Speaker 1: the universe. It Could Happen Here is a production of

4512
04:13:23,200 --> 04:13:26,120
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. Or more podcasts from cool Zone Media.

4513
04:13:26,240 --> 04:13:28,680
Speaker 1: Visit our website cool zone media dot com or check

4514
04:13:28,760 --> 04:13:31,000
Speaker 1: us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

4515
04:13:31,120 --> 04:13:34,120
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources

4516
04:13:34,160 --> 04:13:36,720
Speaker 1: for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone

4517
04:13:36,720 --> 04:13:40,520
Speaker 1: Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening. Kick Off

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Speaker 1: I'm Scott Rank, host of the podcast History Unplugged. Now.

4542
04:14:44,600 --> 04:14:46,520
Speaker 1: It really is a dream come true to get paid

4543
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Speaker 1: to talk about history without all the stress, while still

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Speaker 1: being able to make a living. And I did it

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Speaker 1: it super easy to monetize my podcast, but at revenue

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Speaker 1: is three to four times higher with Spreaker than with

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Speaker 1: any other host I've worked with. So if you want

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Speaker 1: a try, visit speaker dot com. That's sp r e

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Speaker 1: a k e Er dot Com get paid to talk

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Speaker 1: about the things you love. Hello, and welcome to our show.

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Speaker 1: I'm Zoe Deschanel and I'm so excited to be joined

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Speaker 1: by my friends and cast mates Hannah Simone and Lamar

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Speaker 1: and Morris to recap our hit television series New Girl.

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Speaker 1: Join us every Monday on the Welcome to Our Show podcast,

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04:15:25,960 --> 04:15:28,360
Speaker 1: where we'll share behind the scenes stories of your favorite

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Speaker 1: New Girl episodes. Each week, we answer all your burnie

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Speaker 1: questions like is there really a bear in every episode

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Speaker 1: of New Girl? Plus you'll here hilarious stories like this

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Speaker 1: that was one of your thanks you brought back from

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Speaker 1: hot yea professional basketball players. Yeah. Listen to the Welcome

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Speaker 1: to Our Show podcast on the I Heart Radio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.