1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:02,320 Speaker 1: Wake that ass up in the morning. 2 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 2: Breakfast Club more than everybody. It is DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, 3 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:09,719 Speaker 2: Charlamagne the guy. We are the Breakfast Club. We got 4 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:10,720 Speaker 2: a special guest. 5 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: In the building. Yes, indeed, the author. 6 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 2: Of My Black Country, A Journey through Country Music's Black Past, 7 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 2: President in Future, Ladies and gentlemen, Alice Randall, Welcome, good morning. 8 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 3: I am so glad to be on the Breakfast Club. 9 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 3: It's like being on America's front porch. O. 10 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: We're gonna have to. 11 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 4: Start using that one A use that as imaging tale 12 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,880 Speaker 4: America's front porch. Alice Man, you have such a storied history. 13 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 1: You are the first. 14 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 4: Black woman to ever write a number one country song. 15 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:43,199 Speaker 4: Ero Tricia Yearwoo was XX sex oh or those X? 16 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: Isn't it X? And ose way back in nineteen ninety four, 17 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 1: but you know it ain't that far way back. 18 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, I. 19 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: Was born. I was two, but I was born. 20 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 3: But you know, Jess, I have been forty one years 21 00:00:57,520 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 3: in country and Western music. I came to the Black 22 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 3: Woman to Nashville in nineteen eighty three, so this is 23 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 3: my forty first year and it's wild. I had songs recorded. 24 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 3: I'm glad you shout out to that one that was 25 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 3: two weeks at number one, and it put Miss Aretha 26 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 3: Franklin's name in it. 27 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: A country song. 28 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 3: Got to two weeks Aretha Franklin and Patsy Khine and 29 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:21,479 Speaker 3: we put Aretha first back then, and it was all 30 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 3: about the money. It's hard to keep the balance up 31 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 3: between love and money. I'm going to tell you about 32 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 3: that in a second. But I wrote my first song 33 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 3: was recorded two years after I arrived in Nashville, so 34 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 3: that was nineteen eighty five, and that was the B 35 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 3: side of the number one. So I had songs recording 36 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 3: the eighties, nineties, odds, tens, and twenties, and sure you 37 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 3: one of the first people to ever recognize that. 38 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 4: Wow, I love that. 39 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 2: Well, let's go from the beginning because you're from Detroit, 40 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 2: Michigan Motowntown. So how did you get into country music? 41 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 2: Tell us how you got into the music at all. 42 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 3: Well, you know, I was born in Detroit in nineteen 43 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 3: fifty nine, the same year as Motown Records, and that 44 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 3: was essential to how I did this black country, motown 45 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 3: and music city thing. 46 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: My father was. 47 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 3: Was a strong supporter of Malcolm X. He was a 48 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 3: very black centered, black man who told me the banjo 49 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,919 Speaker 3: was an African instrument. He pointed out he was also 50 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 3: a dad, mom girl dad waiting for people were that 51 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 3: he was, so he told me, and the Records was 52 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 3: founded a year before Motown Records. He loved Anna Gordy 53 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:30,799 Speaker 3: and he would always put her up as an example 54 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 3: in front of me as a music publisher, as a writer, 55 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 3: as a woman business person. And he's also the person 56 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 3: that told me traditional was probably a colored girl. So 57 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 3: I was born in a music city and my family 58 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 3: knew a lot of people in the music industry, though 59 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 3: they were not in that. My father ran and owned 60 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 3: dry cleaners and laundries. But I was just thinking my 61 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 3: first trip to New York, my first trip on a 62 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 3: plane was to New York City with my family to 63 00:02:59,240 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 3: see the. 64 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 1: Beames open at the Copa Cabana. 65 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 3: It was a weekend that the Beatles played Chase Stadium, 66 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 3: but my family didn't care anything about that. We cared 67 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 3: about the Supremes. We're playing at the Copa Cabana. I 68 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 3: was ringside. I've got a picture of it, and they 69 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 3: sang Queen of the House. They sang a country song. 70 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 3: And the next night they took me to see Sammy 71 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 3: Davis on Broadway. I didn't care, didn't I love Lola 72 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 3: f Atlana dancing half naked, and she would eventually be 73 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 3: in that wonderful black spaghetti Western Lola cult. So I 74 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 3: started off being around music and my father telling me 75 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 3: that there was Lil Hardin who wrote a big number 76 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 3: one for Ray Charles right around that time that she 77 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 3: was playing on that huge hillbilly hit. He didn't use 78 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 3: the word hillbilly, actually use a different word. 79 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 4: I won't use it. 80 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 3: No, the probably pekawi, and I don't use I think 81 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 3: that's not proper language. 82 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 1: I don't actually say words like that. 83 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 3: But he was about the truth that black genus was 84 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 3: hidden in country, and I just think an interesting thing 85 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 3: about what we know what we don't know is, of 86 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 3: course you know, Blue Yodel number nine is an amazing song. 87 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 3: This is by Johnny Cash has said it was probably 88 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 3: the most iconic country song of all time. Three people 89 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 3: played on that. Two of them were black geniuses. One 90 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 3: was Louis Armstrong, we all. 91 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: Know his name. 92 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 3: The other was Lil Hardin Armstrong black woman born in Memphis, 93 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 3: good friend ALBERTA. 94 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: Hunter, and the third was Jimmy Rogers. 95 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,720 Speaker 3: There are three people on it, two were black geniuses, 96 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,119 Speaker 3: but only one's name got on the label. But fast 97 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 3: forward in nineteen fifty nine, when I was born and 98 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 3: growing up, Lil Harden was still alive. Do you think 99 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 3: she didn't tell people she played on that Billy Little 100 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 3: Billy Reader. 101 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 1: Of course she told. Do you think in the black 102 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: music community of Detroit it wasn't known? Of course it 103 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: was known? And do you know? And I talk about 104 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: this in my book My Black Country. 105 00:04:54,760 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 3: In nineteen eighty three, before I drove to Nashville. 106 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: Two days before I. 107 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,679 Speaker 3: Drove to Nashville, I got to go to the twenty 108 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 3: fifth anniversary of the CMA Awards Association and Roy Acuff 109 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 3: is on the stage and Roy Acuff is talking about 110 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 3: country being. 111 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 1: A family, and he talks about Jimmy Rogers. 112 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 3: He even talks about some comedian Will Rogers, and he 113 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 3: does not say Will Harden's name, And he doesn't say 114 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 3: the name of D four Bailey, the first superstar of 115 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 3: the opry, the man that helped Oycuff himself get started. 116 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,479 Speaker 3: He knew that man's name, and he didn't say it. 117 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 3: And I knew the man's name. And now I've said 118 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 3: it in My Black Country, and I'm thrilled that Sean 119 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 3: has publishing my book on his imprint Atria, and we're 120 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 3: getting that story out because the history of black people 121 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 3: and country music on the radio goes back to nineteen 122 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 3: twenty seven, almost one hundred years. To me, the first 123 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 3: beat a black country tree on the radio is when 124 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 3: D four Bailey in nineteen twenty seven played Pan American 125 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:10,600 Speaker 3: blues on a show called Barn Dance, right after somebody 126 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 3: on WSM said for the first time the words Grand 127 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 3: Old Opry. 128 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: Then a black man played yeah. 129 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 3: And if I can just say one thing here, that 130 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 3: black man Deft Bailey is the father of black country, 131 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 3: in my opinion, the father of country radio. 132 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: Lil Harden is the mother, and Lil. 133 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 3: Harden is the mama, and Ray Charles is their genius child. 134 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 3: And I think that Charlie Pride is Defort's side child 135 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 3: and HERB Jeffries the bronze buckaroo in all those thirties 136 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 3: and forties black black western singing with singing cowboys. 137 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: He's Lil stepchild is his first family of Black country. 138 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:59,159 Speaker 4: I love you see that you got HERB Jeffries, Charlie 139 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 4: Pride Lil Hard in the Ford Bailey, Racharles Beautiful's amazing. 140 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:09,159 Speaker 3: And Beyonce in this moment metaphorically is Ray Charles's genius child, 141 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 3: the daughter who may eclipse the father. 142 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 4: Explain that why is why is Beyonce the daughter of 143 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 4: Racheles in this case? 144 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 3: In this case because when nineteen sixty three, when modern 145 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 3: sounds and country and Western drops, that's Ray Charles's country album. 146 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: So, first of all, Ray Charles put out an amazing country 147 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: album in nineteen sixty three. 148 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 3: I used to chatcha around the living room with my 149 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 3: black auntie, Mary Francis, who I love more than life. 150 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 1: Mary Francis, I would dance to Ray Charles. Ray Charles Country. 151 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 3: He deconstructed and reconstructed country music according to his own aesthetics. 152 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 1: Now you need to understand that Ray Charles grew up 153 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: listening to the opry. 154 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 3: His Mamo let him stay up late to hear it 155 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:55,239 Speaker 3: on Saturday nights. Because back in the forties, thirties, twenties, 156 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 3: when my family is coming up, there was no black 157 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 3: radio in Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi. 158 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: There was none. 159 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 3: We were culturally redlined out of owning radio stations. So 160 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 3: if you were black and you were living in the 161 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 3: rural South, you could hear great live music in the 162 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 3: juke joints, in the church in your home. 163 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: But the only thing you were really hearing in the 164 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: rural South on the radio. There was a lot of 165 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: country in some classical music. 166 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 3: So black people knew country. And just remember, as my 167 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 3: daddy said, we were actually playing on it. We can 168 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 3: now document that that there was two black geniuses on 169 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 3: Blue Yola number nine, and that doesn't even count the 170 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 3: people passing that were playing in these bears. But so 171 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 3: we knew country, and we knew that we'd have been 172 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 3: at the banjo, that a lot of the things are 173 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 3: best in country. That it was a black person who 174 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 3: taught Hank Williams how to play a lot of his 175 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 3: early songs. Lefty Frizelle, that the Carter family that there 176 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 3: were taught by Eslee Riddle. Esleie Riddle was a black 177 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 3: man who taught the Carter family their first songs, a 178 00:08:56,320 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 3: lot of the chords. Some people, you know, we're thinking, well, 179 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 3: as it has been traditionally told in the white world, 180 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 3: when they say about the first family of country, they say, 181 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 3: Jimmy Rodgers is the Papa. 182 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: Now, I just told you he was really working with 183 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:14,559 Speaker 1: Lill and Lewis. 184 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 3: And they say that the mama is a may Bell, 185 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 3: Carter mother may Bell, But I'm going to tell you 186 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 3: that my mother may Bell. She had a way of 187 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 3: playing that's called Carter Family scratch. The way she used 188 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 3: two fingers three fingers. Well, this man, Esle Riddle, he 189 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 3: was in a terrible accident when he was young, lost 190 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 3: the leg. Then he almost committed suicide or maybe tried 191 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:37,959 Speaker 3: to commit suicide, and. 192 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 1: He lost a couple of fingers. 193 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 3: Jesus, he played with three fingers before the Carter family 194 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 3: was playing. 195 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: He's the one that taught them the first song. So 196 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: I'm just saying, who really invented Carter Family scratched? We 197 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,319 Speaker 1: can't prove that, but is it the man who actually 198 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:52,439 Speaker 1: had that? 199 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 3: We know that they acknowledge, and they played with him 200 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 3: all through their history later and they have there's a 201 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 3: story that they tell that he's called Leslie Riddle because 202 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 3: their children could not pronounce Leslie. 203 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: Well, I found him in the. 204 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 3: US Census as Edley E. S l i E, long 205 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 3: before he ever met the Carters. So there's questions about 206 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:14,079 Speaker 3: this because our history is not well documented. 207 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:18,439 Speaker 1: So the cowboy Carter obviously. 208 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 3: Speaks right now for Beyonce Knowles, and I missus Carter. 209 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: I don't know that she is at all signing to 210 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: the original Carter family. 211 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 3: But what I signed to is I'm not interested in 212 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:34,199 Speaker 3: that Carter family right now, because they've had a lot 213 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 3: of attention. I'm really interested in Esleie Riddle, who's a 214 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 3: black man who came from that same place, and his 215 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 3: story has not been told. And that's what you get 216 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 3: in My Black Country. D Ford's story hasn't been told. 217 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 3: Lil Harden's story hasn't been told. 218 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 1: You know what's. 219 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:54,079 Speaker 4: Interesting, My guy Bobby Bones, he does. He's a big, 220 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 4: nationally syndicated, you know country morning guys, Luther Bobby Bones 221 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 4: out in Nashville. He taught about the banjo and how 222 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:04,959 Speaker 4: you can't even talk about black country, I mean without 223 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 4: you can't talk about country music without talking about black 224 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 4: people's contributions to country music from the very beginning. So 225 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 4: my question is when did it shift? When did people 226 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 4: just make it country a white thing so to speak? 227 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: Well, there's two pieces that One. 228 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 3: I agree with your friend Bobby Bones that my definition 229 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 3: of country music is Celtic, English, Irish, Scottish ballid form 230 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 3: storytelling plus black influences plus evangelical Christianity. Country can't be 231 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 3: country without black influences. Without black influences, country is just 232 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 3: folk music. 233 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: Now. 234 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 3: Some of those black influences are black gospel from la 235 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 3: and the South. Some of the black influences are the banjo. 236 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 3: Some of the is the way the notes are bent 237 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 3: when they're sung. They're coming out of the blues. And 238 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 3: the difference between and if you don't have the evangelical Christianity, 239 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 3: you might be in a country blues because the big 240 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 3: difference is and I said, my childhood, I had a 241 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 3: very bad mother and I had a great daddy and 242 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 3: a really bad mother. 243 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: So I don't love the blues. 244 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 3: The blues is too My daughter loves the blues. The 245 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 3: blues is too hard for me. I need some hope 246 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 3: I need with my tragedy. I need the reality, and 247 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 3: then I need some hope. And black country has both 248 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:25,559 Speaker 3: of those things. The hope, because it could be I'm 249 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 3: just gonna be up in heaven and tell Jesus how 250 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 3: you've done me. It could be you're going to be 251 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:31,839 Speaker 3: in hell and some burning fires and I'm going to 252 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 3: be that there's some hope, there's some revenge in. 253 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: Country, and I like the hope. 254 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 3: I like the revenge that Blues has a little bit 255 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 3: of an experience of we are walking on hell on Earth, 256 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 3: but we're finding some joy. 257 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 1: We're making some joy in the hell on earth. Yeah. 258 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 3: But Black country says we're gonna get somewhere else. But 259 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 3: country isn't country, and on is the little teacher of me. 260 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 3: I hate to say I have to do this one 261 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 3: because I'm a professor at Vanderbilt. Whe have a course 262 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 3: on Black country, and I've been to that course since 263 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 3: twenty fifteen. My first course, Country lyric and American Culture, 264 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 3: I've been teaching since two thousand and six. I used 265 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 3: to say it was musical midsitenation, and that wasn't my phrase. 266 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 1: I adopted that one. But here we know that. 267 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 3: Country requires blackness to be country. And one of the 268 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 3: examples you see on Cowboy Carter is that song Blackbird, 269 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,319 Speaker 3: which is a remake of a Beatle. 270 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: Song without the black voices on it. It's a folks song. 271 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 1: You add those black women's voices and they're black esthetics. 272 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: It's country. What makes it country? The black gospel. 273 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,079 Speaker 3: You hear sound that they bring to it. I love 274 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 3: my Randa Roberts. 275 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: I'm there. 276 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:46,959 Speaker 3: My students found her for me when she was only 277 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 3: like three weeks when she was on TikTok. I had 278 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 3: students rush in and show her to me, and so 279 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 3: I've been loving her. She's since sometime. Now the world 280 00:13:57,960 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 3: is discovering her now. 281 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, Rana talent Sen, Yeah, absolutely. 282 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:03,839 Speaker 2: What did you think of Beyonce's album? Did you listen 283 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 2: to it in full? What were your thoughts? 284 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: Oh, I have listened to it many times. 285 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,319 Speaker 3: I actually love it in this particularly as I said, 286 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 3: I'm sixty four. 287 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: This is my birthday party on the Breakfast Club. I'll 288 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: be sixty five May fourth, nine, Happy birthday. 289 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 3: And you know when I arrived here forty one years 290 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 3: ago in Nashville, I wanted to get as number one, 291 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 3: and I got a number one. 292 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 4: Yeah. 293 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 3: I wanted to spotlight black women who have really contributed. 294 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 3: I'm proud to say I wrote the first major article 295 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 3: on Linda Martell. Everybody talking about her now I've published 296 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 3: that in twenty ten. 297 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:41,359 Speaker 1: Amazing. 298 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 3: I'm in the documentary her granddaughter is making about her. 299 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: I love Linda Martel. 300 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 3: I had to fight to get that space for her 301 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 3: back in twenty ten when people weren't talk. 302 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: And I'm thrilled, So just stop there. 303 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 3: I'm thrilled that Beyonce has brought her to a huge world. 304 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 3: My article in a got a lot of attention, but 305 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 3: in a narrow way. 306 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 1: Now the whole world knows who Linda Martell is. 307 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 3: That that documentary, her vand daughter has been struggling to 308 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 3: get made, picking up a little bit of money here, 309 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 3: a little bit of money there. Now that thing is 310 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 3: going to be made and made right. So I am 311 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 3: absolutely thrilled that Beyonce has taken country to a global audience. 312 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 3: But there's a third thing. So I wanted to. 313 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: Spot like these black people. I could do that in 314 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: this book. I wanted my own number one, but I 315 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: wanted to see and Jess is gonna be you and 316 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: me here. 317 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 3: I wanted to see a black woman at the top 318 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 3: of the country charts because the day I arrived in 319 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 3: Nashville in nineteen eighty three, Charlie probably had already been 320 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 3: up there twenty nine times. Ray Charles was acknowledged. I 321 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 3: saw I was in the room when he played Seven 322 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 3: Spanish Angels in Nashville in a back small room for DJs. 323 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 3: He got to go to the top of the charts. 324 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 3: There are so many black men who have been to 325 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 3: the number one spot. Now just call the name of 326 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 3: the two most important Charlie Pride, Ray Charles, but serious Rucker. 327 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 3: I'm not even to name anymore because there's so many 328 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 3: and there has not been one Black woman. Black women 329 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 3: have absolutely I have a song called small Towns are 330 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 3: Smaller for Girls in country, and that's true. It's hard 331 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 3: on the country radio even for all women. Small towns 332 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 3: are cursed back here a lot smaller for black women. 333 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 3: If small towns are smaller for girls, they're really smaller 334 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 3: for black girls. 335 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: And Music City is a small town. 336 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 3: So I wanted to see a Black woman at the 337 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 3: top of it because it's acknowledging that we are worth, 338 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 3: our beauty are significance. And I thought I was going 339 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 3: to retire without seeing it. So Cowboy Carter, for me personally, 340 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 3: is so important because it is a Hallelujah moment, It 341 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 3: is a Juneteenth moment. It is good news at long last. 342 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 3: But my daughter, says Caroline Randall Williams, good news at 343 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 3: long last is still good news. 344 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 2: What's not what's the When you got your number one record? 345 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 2: What did that mean to you? Because was it as 346 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 2: big as it is now with it charts? 347 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 1: Was it? 348 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 2: You know? What did happen to number one record mean? 349 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:13,920 Speaker 2: Back then? 350 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: Oh, I'm gonna give you want me to get it. 351 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 2: I'm gonna be real, real, real with yeah, because I 352 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 2: don't even know it was number one was number one Rember. 353 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 3: In some ways it was bigger because back then, let 354 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 3: me just put it a little bit generally, let's say hypothetically, 355 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 3: right now, back then, a number one record on the 356 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 3: country charts for the co writer, that's a million dollars. 357 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:35,360 Speaker 3: It's bigger because it's streaming. 358 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: That's not a million dollars the co writer nowadays. So 359 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: back then it's a life changing you made a million dollars. 360 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 1: Hold that record. You need to read my book because 361 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 1: I said that about. 362 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 2: You need to read the book. 363 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 3: I will just say that that song earned the writers 364 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 3: section of that song or significant. I was say, I'm 365 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 3: made some money even just last month. That made so 366 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:58,159 Speaker 3: much money that I signed that contract I should not 367 00:17:58,280 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 3: have signed. 368 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:00,040 Speaker 1: I don't want to talk to you much about that. 369 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:04,200 Speaker 3: Far into it, at the height of the success, and 370 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 3: that song was so successful that it got itself out 371 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 3: of jail that you know, when they're collateralizing everything against 372 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:14,120 Speaker 3: everything and every expense there was ever spent anywhere that 373 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 3: that I made some money on that song just this year, 374 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 3: and that's the song is thirty years old. So back then, 375 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 3: another number one record changed your life? How did you 376 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 3: and two weeks at number one really changed your life? 377 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,120 Speaker 2: How did you navigate through the industry? Because you hear 378 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 2: all the time black artists never really got the money 379 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 2: that they were old or they were supposed to get, 380 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 2: So how did you navigate to make sure that you 381 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 2: got what you was supposed to get? 382 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 3: If you did, I did not successfully one hundred percent 383 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:45,120 Speaker 3: navigate through the industry. And there's so many things about that. 384 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 3: You know, there was no chances that, so many complexities. 385 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:50,920 Speaker 3: You don't have the lawyers, the managers, or anyone who 386 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 3: looks like you or understands you or is looking out 387 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 3: for you or believing one hundred percent that you can 388 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 3: do it again and again, I don't even think that 389 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 3: any thing was said so, but I did successfully. My company, 390 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 3: Midsummer Music is forty one years old and it still exists, 391 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 3: and it has published some important people, Mark Sanders, a 392 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:14,639 Speaker 3: little tiny bit of Garth Books. 393 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: Who's that are right? 394 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 3: So two writers who are in the Nashville Songwriters Association. 395 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 3: So number one is I came from Detroit City. So 396 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,679 Speaker 3: I set up my home publishing company. I got investors 397 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 3: from outside of Nashville, an investor from outside of Nashville 398 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 3: that believed in me and believed in my autonomy and 399 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:33,920 Speaker 3: supported me in that part and let me run the company. 400 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: And they were fair to me. Garth Books was really 401 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 1: fair to me. 402 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:42,880 Speaker 3: I over the years that I found some allies were 403 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 3: really fair to me, and I had a vision, like, 404 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 3: for example, the songs that I published and we did 405 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 3: and are on my new album, My Black Country. 406 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:53,640 Speaker 1: He has an album too. 407 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 3: We were had the first big country song about the homelessness, 408 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 3: the first big, the first significant country song that I 409 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 3: know of about lynching. 410 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: That song was called the Ballad of Sally Anne. 411 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 3: I'm very thrilled that Rihannan Giddons, who's on Cowboy Carter, 412 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 3: she sings it on my new album now. And this 413 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 3: is a song about a woman whose husband is lynch 414 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 3: between his wedding and reception. It's a song that demands 415 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 3: reckoning it, demands acknowledging that lynching happened. Ebany Smith, brilliant 416 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:28,360 Speaker 3: black woman out of Memphis, is the producer. She put 417 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 3: horns on that song. People say, why are there horns 418 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 3: on this song? To remind people that the first, the 419 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 3: last significant lynching we know of, happened in nineteen fifty five. 420 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 3: It didn't happen in the nineteenth century or the nineteen tenths. 421 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 3: And mctill was lynched after he was drug that people 422 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 3: want to think that lynching something happened a long time ago. 423 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,200 Speaker 1: Lynching's happened in the forties. Lynching happened in fifty five. 424 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 3: So that ballad of Sally ann that Rihannan has re 425 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 3: recorded produced by Ebany Smith. This whole group, eleven different artists, 426 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 3: all black women, rode to the rescue of my legacy 427 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 3: when they came to make this album. So I made 428 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 3: money because I was a publisher, because I was acting 429 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 3: like Anna Gordy, because I didn't I didn't and I 430 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,919 Speaker 3: recognize talent, and I worked with a lot of women 431 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 3: to have this vision at the very top of the success. 432 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 3: When you get the big success puts a target on 433 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 3: your back and so even if you behind the scenes 434 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 3: kind of yeah, because there's so much money in the room. 435 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,639 Speaker 1: Got back then, there was so much money in the room. 436 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,360 Speaker 3: And as I said, I thought myself, only I take 437 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 3: responsibility because I was going out to lunch and we 438 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 3: were supposed to be celebrating that record. And they said 439 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 3: and something read it in the book like this. All 440 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:53,199 Speaker 3: it does is changed how long you're going to be 441 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,880 Speaker 3: with us, the same exact terms seventy. 442 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:57,199 Speaker 1: Decided to my Laurie. I know you don't. It's just 443 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:57,880 Speaker 1: the same thing. 444 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 3: Just we need I need to show people that you're 445 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:02,679 Speaker 3: not going to just get the big head and go 446 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:06,159 Speaker 3: somewhere else because you're having the success. And I signed 447 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 3: something without reading it without the lawyer thinking I swam 448 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 3: in this lady's pool that confusing a business associate with 449 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 3: a friend. 450 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 1: I've never made that mistake again. 451 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 3: Oh at the time, because you remember, mm it was 452 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety four, I was old enough to know better, 453 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,679 Speaker 3: old enough to know better, and I did something that 454 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 3: no one that hardly anyone could believe I'd die I 455 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 3: read I signed something that. 456 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 1: Signed without reading it, So totally my fault wasn't I 457 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 1: knew better and I did it. 458 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 4: It's also illegal though if the lawyer said to you, 459 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 4: have you said to the person, hey, I need to 460 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:44,399 Speaker 4: see my lawyers, Like no, no, no, you don't like 461 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:45,359 Speaker 4: they're not supposed to see that. 462 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:48,640 Speaker 1: Who knows it was in a room and no one's 463 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: gonna All I can say is it all worked out 464 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 1: on the end. 465 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:54,959 Speaker 3: Of my story now is there's an album that I 466 00:22:55,000 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 3: adore and you know, if you are for me, I 467 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:02,919 Speaker 3: love that some of the interesting things you've just said 468 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 3: recently about if you are me. When I was started 469 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:10,719 Speaker 3: off how David asked me, what will you do if 470 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:14,920 Speaker 3: someone steals the song from you? And I thought form 471 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 3: him and I said, write another song. He said, that's 472 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 3: the answer. 473 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: Go down in Nashville because people will. 474 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 3: And you know what, I'm not glad that that thing 475 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 3: happened to me, but that thing happened to me. Now 476 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 3: I had the audacity I refuse to write for them 477 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 3: after that, like, you can have all the but you're 478 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 3: not getting another song. 479 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 1: So you can just see that. 480 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 3: After two weeks and number one, I stopped writing country 481 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 3: songs and that thing, and I wrote a book that 482 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 3: was in the top ten. You know, when done Gone 483 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 3: the Black retelling of Gone with the Whim from a 484 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 3: black perspective that I doubled down on, a new audacity, 485 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 3: on a new autonomy. If you're not gonna play fair 486 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 3: with me, I'll go play somewhere else. 487 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:51,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. 488 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 3: Sure, and so and that was a huge, huge success, 489 00:23:55,560 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 3: And I now have five novels and the New York Times. 490 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 4: Bestseller, it's about to be another. 491 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 3: One critically acclaimed, and we've got My Black Country. So 492 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 3: it all worked out for me because if you do 493 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 3: the work and you get the wisdom. 494 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: Now I learned from that lesson. 495 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 3: If you do the work and you get the wisdom 496 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 3: and you get the right people around you, then it 497 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 3: does work out. But you lose some battles, but you 498 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 3: go back you I was. I learned that in Detroit, 499 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,119 Speaker 3: survived a plague to fight another day. 500 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 4: Can we talk about divine alignment? Because you started My 501 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 4: Black Country a while ago. So when you're writing the 502 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,119 Speaker 4: book and you know, you know your book is about 503 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 4: to be published, you get the date it's you know, April, 504 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 4: But then all of a sudden you started to hear 505 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 4: these Beyonce Texas hold them and Beyonce maybe doing a 506 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 4: country album, Like, what did that feel. 507 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 3: Like it felt that what you just said divine alignment, 508 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,399 Speaker 3: because this project I started forty one years ago, and 509 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,920 Speaker 3: really this part of it started in Deep five years ago, 510 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,920 Speaker 3: is a pure project for me. This is my life work, 511 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 3: the history of Black people and country, putting it back 512 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 3: into the seventeenth century. And it was just and it's 513 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 3: just a wild alignment because it has created a global conversation, 514 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,719 Speaker 3: a global conversation I spent forty one years preparing for, 515 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 3: but actually started even earlier than that at Harvard in 516 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 3: nineteen seventy seven, when I'm starting to look studying the 517 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 3: Harlem Renaissance with Nathan Huggins and starting to try to 518 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 3: prove my father's Black Detroit Gossip was true, chasing that 519 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 3: down because back then there was no scholarship that told 520 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 3: us that the banjo was a black instrument. Back then, 521 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 3: there was no scholarship that said Lil Harden was really 522 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 3: on that record. 523 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: But I have traced down these oral histories that. 524 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 3: Other scholars have, and now we know that Lil Harden 525 00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,479 Speaker 3: was absolutely on that record. 526 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,200 Speaker 1: Black Gossip of Motown was correct. 527 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 3: So the alignment, though instead of this being some small book, 528 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,640 Speaker 3: although it wouldn't be if you're on the breakfast club. 529 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 3: I'm gonna say I'm from I'm up here in New 530 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 3: York from Nashville. 531 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:15,120 Speaker 1: I want all the. 532 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 3: Folks up in up in Detroit, all down South. I 533 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 3: want you out there getting my black country. I want 534 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 3: to be lifted up by black readers. Yeah, that is 535 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 3: I have always with all of my books, starting with 536 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 3: The Wind Done Gone, I have loved. One of my 537 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 3: readers told me is the literary equivalent of prissy slapping 538 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 3: scarlet back. 539 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,879 Speaker 1: I had more than one reader. 540 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 3: I happened to stop and tell this story. It was 541 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 3: one of the most meaningful stories on Wind Done Gone tour. 542 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 3: I was in North Carolina, a black woman library, and 543 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 3: hit bought all these books for the State Library of 544 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 3: North Carolina mine. But we were coming home after big 545 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 3: reading and I'm thinking back to my hotel. 546 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 1: This is not the way we went, Like, I don't. 547 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 3: Know where we are going, and it's late at night, 548 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 3: we've got dinner reading. And she drove me and we 549 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,119 Speaker 3: sat outside the house. She pulled up in front of 550 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,399 Speaker 3: house in a fancy neighbor and she said, my mother 551 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,680 Speaker 3: worked as a maid in this house almost all my life. 552 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 3: They made her come in the back door. They made 553 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 3: me come in the back door. They loved gone with 554 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 3: the wind. And I cannot tell you what it means 555 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 3: to me that you wrote this book attacking everything that 556 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 3: that valued that. 557 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: And the way they treated her. I waited this long, 558 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 1: she said, I felt, she said, joy, but the number. 559 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,120 Speaker 3: But more than that, I had women who were ongoingly 560 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 3: working as domestic servants telling me this book meant so 561 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 3: much to them. And when I read the book. 562 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 1: That one out loud. And I read this one because 563 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 1: I'm not an actress. I'm not a performer. I don't 564 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: have great voices like all three you. 565 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 3: I read this one because I've always my grandparents couldn't 566 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 3: read or write. My grandmother could read a tiny bit. 567 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 3: My grandfather couldn't read or write even his own name. 568 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 3: I dore my grandparents. They were brilliant people and storytellers, 569 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 3: just never had a day of school in Alabama. I 570 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 3: read my books and make sure there's audio books because 571 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 3: I know a lot of brilliant people can't read or write, and. 572 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 1: I want them. 573 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 3: I'm working as much for them as the people who. 574 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 1: Have all these degrees and whatever. That's amazing. 575 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,880 Speaker 3: Look chapter six in your book, Big Dreams, big, big 576 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,120 Speaker 3: mistakes without spoiling it, you know, because I know it's 577 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 3: a lot of information in this book. You keep saying 578 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 3: to read his book. No, we're won't read it, but 579 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 3: I just can you tease a little bit? 580 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: What like mistakes? Was a big mistake? 581 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 3: Was that sign sign reading it because I swam in 582 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 3: the ladies pool. They won't invite me to your house. 583 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 3: I swam see I swam in your pool and all that. 584 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,479 Speaker 3: That was a big it was, and the big dreams, 585 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 3: that part of it was the first. It's one of 586 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 3: the first big things I did was a song called 587 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 3: Big Dream that I co wrote with my daughter when 588 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 3: she was just little, and it got into this movie 589 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 3: called The Thing called Love. It was River Phoenix's last 590 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 3: big movie, and it was it was a song this 591 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 3: girl is trying to make it in the Blueberg Cafe, 592 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 3: trying to make it now. Of course they have a 593 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 3: white girl playing it, Samantha Mott, But that was really 594 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 3: my story, and I got to write all the songs 595 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 3: for that main character. And that song, Big Dream, is 596 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 3: the one she sings at the end of the movie. 597 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 3: And what's wild about that is all the big white 598 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 3: male songwriters were trying to get that job. Everybody was 599 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 3: after it and I got it. So that was the 600 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 3: first time I competed with these people for something they 601 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 3: really wanted and I beat them out, and you know, 602 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 3: and that was a big movie, Paramount Pictures and River. 603 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: And then that song. 604 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 3: Has been recorded now by Valerie June now. 605 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: Which I'm so excited on the new version of it. 606 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: So big dream was that song that I started writing. 607 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 3: It was a song daughter and I started writing together 608 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 3: that I wrote it with Ralph Murphy. 609 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: But the and that got me to Hollywood, y'all. 610 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 3: Know that when you I got to meet mister Quincy 611 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 3: Jones and work with him. He got me my first 612 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 3: contract to write a black Western that never got made 613 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 3: but paid me some money. 614 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 1: So that was really very exciting. 615 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 3: And the big mistake was and then I had to 616 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 3: pivot away from the big mistake. The big mistake was 617 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 3: I literally signed that thing that I should never have signed. 618 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: Got told you big dreams, and you signed a contract 619 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 1: what I read. But the other good thing was that 620 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 1: I got to write novels. 621 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 3: I might have just been a country songwriter, and now 622 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 3: I get to be a country songwriter and a novelist 623 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 3: and a memoirrist and I love my six books. 624 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 1: That's right, that one about a black spy family. It's 625 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 1: all hold on now for you, yes, okay. 626 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 3: And it's from it if you ever get involved in 627 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 3: me and that kind of movie production. I got a 628 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 3: great one, Rebel Yell about a black spy family. 629 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: I've got some really cool books, all of them. 630 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 4: Girl, Yeah, and turning the movies. 631 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 1: You're gonna talk about that. 632 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 4: This is found on Quincy Jones a little bit, because 633 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 4: in the book you talk about Quincy Jones and the 634 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 4: cosmic colored cowboy. 635 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 3: Yes, that was gonna be Danny Glover. That was amazing. 636 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 3: You know, I got snuck into Quincy's house. I was 637 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 3: literally I got what you mean. 638 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 1: How you just snuck up in there? Waven you went 639 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: to the side the window of the bed. Well, it 640 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 1: was a while. It was wild. Think these are things 641 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 1: you only do when you're really young. 642 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 3: And I do not advise anyone to do this. I'm 643 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 3: sure it would be very incorrect to. 644 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 1: Do this now. 645 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 3: But I knew I wanted to write this black western, 646 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 3: and back then I didn't think nobody was doing anything. 647 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 3: This is way before Jango or anything that was happening, 648 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 3: anything like this, and so I realized the only person 649 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 3: to get this was Quincy Jones. I asked everybody I 650 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 3: knew if they could get me a meeting with Quincy Jones. 651 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 3: So a person I knew who was actually dating she, 652 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 3: they said they could get me into Quincy Jones's give 653 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 3: me a meeting with him. And so I flew out 654 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 3: at my own expense till and she picks me up 655 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 3: at the airport and we're on the way. She said 656 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 3: something that the big problem and I said, well, I 657 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 3: thought we figured out the big problem. He said, no, 658 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 3: the big problem is you don't really have an appointment 659 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 3: with Quincy Jones. That I said, we're not going. She said, 660 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 3: I can get you into the house, but you don't 661 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 3: actually have an appointment. 662 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: I still don't know. I said, do you mean, like 663 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 1: you know the guard. She didn't answer the question. I 664 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: have no idea. I feel like that's about as far 665 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:26,400 Speaker 1: as we probably. 666 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:26,479 Speaker 4: Had, right. 667 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 1: So I get let into Quincy Jones's house in bel Air. 668 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 3: It's a very lovely home, and they sent me in 669 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 3: this room that looks sort of like a library, and 670 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 3: he walks. 671 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 1: In front of me. 672 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 3: Literally, he's like going, it's a room between two rooms. 673 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 3: The first time, he doesn't say anything. I don't say anything. 674 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 3: I'm sitting there with literally Banjo's clipped to my ear, 675 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 3: this little black denim scarred and white shirt and some 676 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 3: black pennylovers that Danny Glover. 677 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 1: Used to make fun of that. He said, Alice, why are. 678 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:56,480 Speaker 3: You wearing that? These pennylovers? Anyway, he stops and says. 679 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 1: Either who are you? Who? I mean, what are you 680 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: here for? 681 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 3: I said, I'm Alice Fianda from Detroit City and Nashville, Tennessee. 682 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: I want to make a movie about black cowboy. 683 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 3: I think his wife has got kidnapped and Rake gang repped, 684 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 3: and everybody else does want the wipe back, but he 685 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 3: loves his wife and wants her back, and he likes security. 686 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 3: Sat down beside me and he said, start that again, 687 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 3: and I will tell you I toned it slower, and 688 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 3: two things happen. He said, right then and there, I'm 689 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 3: going to take you to the movie studios and we're 690 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 3: gonna make that movie. He said right in that first time, 691 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 3: he said, but you got to come back in two 692 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 3: or three weeks, because he said, right now, I'm going 693 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 3: to lay down a velvet carpet for my pearl and 694 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 3: he was talking about Miles Davis. He was about to 695 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 3: go do something with Miles and Davis. I wasn't even 696 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 3: sure what exactly he said, and so you need to 697 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 3: come back in three weeks, two or three. And I 698 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,840 Speaker 3: came back and he took me to two studios and 699 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 3: the second studio bought that movie nice. 700 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 1: And they didn't make it. 701 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 3: I co wrote it with someone else, but they but 702 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 3: they paid me well. And it was this cosmic colored cowboy. 703 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 3: It was just way too ahead of its time, but 704 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 3: it was. And I loved working with Quincy Jones. We 705 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 3: had some great projects together and he's just such a 706 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 3: brilliant creative. But one of the things he taught me 707 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 3: that I feel really inspired the second half of my 708 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 3: career and the reci Palmer Rihanna Giddens, he taught me 709 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 3: what I did for Linda Martell. 710 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 1: I hope I think reci and Rihanna would say this. 711 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 1: I there my prols and in my courses. 712 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,839 Speaker 3: Why I teach Black Country is so I can lay 713 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 3: down a velvet carpet for my pearls, my black pearls, 714 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 3: so that people can understand the significance of Reina Roberts 715 00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 3: that for example, that she's subversive because she has all 716 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 3: these she does things that people consider to be sins, 717 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:10,359 Speaker 3: and she is black woman inhabiting that, and she is 718 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 3: it's fine that black women don't have to be perfect 719 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 3: in country to be worthy, and that what other people 720 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 3: consider to be wrong. 721 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 1: Is it necessarily? Does that make sense? 722 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 3: And that we don't have to be sanitized and perfect 723 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 3: to be respected because country allows some real wildness, but 724 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:29,680 Speaker 3: it doesn't necessarily allow. 725 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,360 Speaker 1: Black characters wildness. They seem to have to be super perfect, 726 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 1: and that's not right. 727 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 4: I feel like it should be like that in all genres. 728 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,279 Speaker 3: Though. Absolutely it needs to be that because it's like 729 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 3: that in a whole life. 730 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, I feel like when you say that, I feel 731 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 4: like that's what you see a lot of women in 732 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:47,840 Speaker 4: hip hop reclaiming in the last few years. 733 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,319 Speaker 3: Absolutely, And you know, one of my favorite poets is 734 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,759 Speaker 3: Missy Elliott. I just have to shout down with her 735 00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 3: when I think of storytelling traditions. 736 00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,720 Speaker 1: She and I remember seeing her in a beautiful throwne. 737 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 3: But I think that you're absolutely right, But we have 738 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 3: to reclaim that people are imperfect. People are raggedy, but 739 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,919 Speaker 3: right at their best and at least that's who I am, 740 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 3: and we got to claim that and acclaim. 741 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,839 Speaker 4: That absolutely Listen, they got to go get the book man, 742 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 4: Alicia Randall My Black Country, A Journey through Country Music, 743 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 4: Black Past, President Future. I do have one last question. 744 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:26,880 Speaker 4: Why do you think they try to erase so much 745 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,440 Speaker 4: of our people's involvement, Black people's involvement in the country 746 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 4: music world. 747 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 3: I think a lot of people find black genius threatening. 748 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,920 Speaker 3: I think that after that whole welcome table thing, that 749 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 3: after we've been treating culturally red lined out of something, 750 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 3: the guilt and shame some people have. Roy Acuff, if 751 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 3: he were here, I'd say the guilt and shame he 752 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 3: had of never doing right by deft Bail. When people 753 00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,759 Speaker 3: feel really guilty and really shamed, they sometimes don't want 754 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 3: you to where near them. 755 00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:05,880 Speaker 1: And I am thrilled that we are in a new day. 756 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 3: Beyonce has helped been It's been a big part of 757 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 3: bringing that day because what is being noticed here and 758 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,600 Speaker 3: some of that's on the breakfast club out there, is 759 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 3: the existence of a global black audience for country. 760 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 1: We haven't even talked about that that people listen. 761 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:25,719 Speaker 3: Black people listen to country in Africa and including make 762 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 3: their own Black country there, but black people in this 763 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 3: country also listen to country, and a larger number are 764 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:39,359 Speaker 3: going to now and it's the black genius. There has 765 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 3: been so much black genius hidden in country that I 766 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:49,840 Speaker 3: think it's a great time to be celebrating and centering 767 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:54,720 Speaker 3: it and to realize, as I say, if country owes 768 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 3: a great debt to black people. 769 00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 1: What in America doesn't. And that's why because they some 770 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,760 Speaker 1: people don't want to recognize the debt what they owe 771 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:07,280 Speaker 1: and this country. 772 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 3: I want to end on that saying that Thomas Jefferson, 773 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:16,120 Speaker 3: when he was defining freedom, he had his British, the 774 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,919 Speaker 3: British documents and the French documents, but they all talked 775 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 3: about freedom as legal and economic. And when you say life, 776 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,319 Speaker 3: liberty and the pursuit of happiness, you know how we 777 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:29,920 Speaker 3: get to that Sally Hemmings, that black woman in his bed, 778 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,320 Speaker 3: that he understood all around him, that some black people 779 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:37,919 Speaker 3: embodied freedom even when they didn't have a legal right 780 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 3: to it, even when they didn't have economic freedom. That 781 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:46,279 Speaker 3: freedom starts in the mind and some people, and that 782 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:52,880 Speaker 3: our American understanding of freedom is country music is black, 783 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 3: and it has some English and Celtic in it. 784 00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,120 Speaker 1: So when we understand. 785 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 3: What freedom means in its ideal in America that is 786 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:08,880 Speaker 3: a co creation of black people and white people, just 787 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:09,840 Speaker 3: like country music. 788 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 2: There you have it, Alice Randall. Ladies and gentlemen, make 789 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,520 Speaker 2: sure you think of a book right now, My Black Country. Yes, 790 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,520 Speaker 2: the countries music, Black past, present and future. 791 00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:20,239 Speaker 4: Yes, the latest release off my book in print, Black 792 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 4: Permi is publishing. But also this Wednesday from seven to 793 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,839 Speaker 4: eight thirty, you can catch me and Alice Randall and 794 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:30,839 Speaker 4: Roseanne Cash will be at the Brooklyn Public Library from 795 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:34,520 Speaker 4: seven to eight thirty having more conversations about My Black Country. 796 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,440 Speaker 1: Yes, and I'm so excited. I have to see so 797 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 1: much of the Breakfast Club out there. I came all 798 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 1: the way up from Nashville to need some new people. 799 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,760 Speaker 3: I'm Charles's country cousin, Auntie Country Auntie. 800 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:50,919 Speaker 1: I need, we need you. That's right, It's the Breakfast Club. 801 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,440 Speaker 1: Good morning, Wake that ass up in the morning. The 802 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:55,440 Speaker 1: Breakfast Club