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Speaker 1: Also media, Welcome to Behind the Bastards, a podcast where I,

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Speaker 1: Robert Evans, am going to war like a one man

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Speaker 1: like Rambo, like one of the later Rambo movies, not

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Speaker 1: the first one that was actually about the cost of

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Speaker 1: PTSD and Imperial War, but like the later ones where

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Speaker 1: he's a one man army. I'm doing that, and I'm

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Speaker 1: doing it against Microsoft because I fucking hate co Pilot.

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Speaker 1: With me to talk about how much we hate Microsoft

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Speaker 1: co Pilot, my producer Sophie Lichterman, and our wonderful guest

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Speaker 1: David Borie. David, how do you feel about Microsoft co pilot?

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Speaker 2: Ah Rambo three, let's go okay, okay, okay, kill a

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Speaker 2: ton of brown people. Well, no, I mean this one.

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Speaker 1: We're just it's just like Microsoft co pilots were killing Okay,

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Speaker 1: all of them are not really people.

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Speaker 2: It's so bad.

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Speaker 1: Outlook is terrible. Microsoft has really gone far off of

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Speaker 1: making a lot of products that people hate to use.

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Speaker 3: Speaking of speaking of products people hate to use, David

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Speaker 3: said before we started recording that he was excited to

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Speaker 3: hear this story. I just watched it. Know where we're

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Speaker 3: starting on this story is page twenty one of the

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Speaker 3: script and where we d The script is page forty nine.

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Speaker 1: WHOA, I I made a mistake in doing this. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna admit that right now before we get further, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna say I aired in this. And it's you know,

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Speaker 1: I've made peace with the inevitability of fucking stuff up,

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Speaker 1: especially when like every week you're doing a different chunk

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Speaker 1: of history and we're veering from like we're talking about

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Speaker 1: fucking seventeenth and eighteenth century France and then like now

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Speaker 1: we're talking about like a fucking guy you to a

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Speaker 1: genocide and Darfur or whatever. Right like you're going to

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Speaker 1: these are all important topics, but like you simply can't

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Speaker 1: every single week cover the breadth of stuff that we

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Speaker 1: do and not you're gonna misspeak, You're gonna make errors

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Speaker 1: and stuff. And when it comes to like I'm talking

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Speaker 1: about I'm talking about like not obviously those are important,

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Speaker 1: but you know, if I fuck up some fact about

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Speaker 1: like early nineteen hundreds Germany, I'm not going to be

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Speaker 1: like too bent out of shape because it's like, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's there's no perfection in this. But in this case,

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Speaker 1: it's this tiny little community that nearly all of the

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Speaker 1: reporting on has been like deeply incomplete, and I feel

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Speaker 1: like I like the stress over, like what do I

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Speaker 1: include in here? And the other problem is that none

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Speaker 1: of these people have editors, and so all of everybody

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Speaker 1: in this story has a blog, and every blog post

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Speaker 1: is like forty thousand words.

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Speaker 2: So it's just like, now, say, what media are you

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Speaker 2: able to get this?

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Speaker 1: Is?

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Speaker 2: You're getting this all straight from the source, right.

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Speaker 1: A lot of it's I mean I read, I've read

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Speaker 1: most of Zizz's blog entries, and I've at least done

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Speaker 1: like little surveys of the blogs of everybody else involved

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Speaker 1: in this. There were also a couple of very helpful

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Speaker 1: compilations that like people, there's like one like a former

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Speaker 1: Sometimes it's like former members of the community. Sometimes it's

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Speaker 1: folks who are like rationalists that were trying to warn

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Speaker 1: other rationalists about Zizians. But like people in and around

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Speaker 1: the community have put together compilations where they'll like clip

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Speaker 1: mixes of news stories and like conversations online come and

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Speaker 1: obviously these folks like nasty work, yes, yes, and I'm

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Speaker 1: deeply great, Well, we'll have source links at everything in here.

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Speaker 1: I note when I'm kind of like pulling something from

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Speaker 1: something directly, but like, I'm very grateful to the maniacs

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Speaker 1: who put together these like documents that have helped me

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Speaker 1: piece together what's happening. Because really, if you're coming in

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Speaker 1: as an outsider, if you weren't like embedded in this

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Speaker 1: community while all is crazy shit was going on, it's

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Speaker 1: a little it's kind of impossible to like get everything

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Speaker 1: you need to get. You have to refer to these

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Speaker 1: interior sources. It's just the only way to actually understand stuff.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I as an out cider, I don't know

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Speaker 2: what's going on. I don't know where it's going for sure.

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Speaker 2: I don't know where it's going.

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Speaker 1: It's going, we know where it ends, which you know

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Speaker 1: it ends. A member of Congress shows up at the

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Speaker 1: library in Vermont that the US and Canada shares because

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Speaker 1: a border patrol agent was murdered there and threatens to

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Speaker 1: take over Canada, and that's all. Like there's a degree

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Speaker 1: to which you can kind of tie heightened tensions between

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Speaker 1: the US and Canada to the murder of this border

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Speaker 1: patrol agent, which itself is directly tied to the fact

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Speaker 1: that Alicia Jedkowski wrote a piece of Harry Potter fan.

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Speaker 2: Fiction, Love it all goes back to that.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, it all comes back to bad Harry Potter

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Speaker 1: fan fiction. So part three. We spent last episode talking

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Speaker 1: about zizz Is moving to the Bay and their first

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Speaker 1: interactions with the rationalist community. That big Sea Far conference

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Speaker 1: they went to that was very reminiscent, had a lot

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Speaker 1: of exercises reminiscent of like sin and on ship.

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Speaker 2: Right, very very a lot of talking murder, Yes, a

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Speaker 2: lot of talk a murder.

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Speaker 1: These people love theorizing about when it's okay to kill people.

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Speaker 1: Constant factor at all of this, which.

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Speaker 2: Is can't be a step in a good direction.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, you should. You should be aware of

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Speaker 1: There's like, if your community is talking about like the

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Speaker 1: ethics of escalating to murder in random arguments too much,

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Speaker 1: maybe be a little worried.

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Speaker 2: If someone sits down next to you and says, how

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Speaker 2: would you murder me? Or whatever? This right? You always

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Speaker 2: got to get out of that room.

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Speaker 1: Yeah you want to, You want to, You want to

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Speaker 1: leave immediately.

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Speaker 2: And even more if they're like, yeah, that's the right way,

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Speaker 2: even worse sign.

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Speaker 1: And then if they're like, yeah, would you would you

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Speaker 1: perform necrophilia in order to in the past scare people

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Speaker 1: away from attacking you, like, get out of that room,

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Speaker 1: leap bad.

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Speaker 2: This is not a.

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Speaker 1: Crew you want to be a part of.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe just take a pickleball or so pickleball.

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Speaker 1: People never talk about necrophilia playing pickleball.

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Speaker 2: I don't think one time. I don't think one time.

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Speaker 1: No, they all talk about how they're getting knee replacements.

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Speaker 1: And that's the beauty of pickleball exactly. So, in spite

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Speaker 1: of how obviously bad this community is, Ziz desperately wants

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Speaker 1: to be in the center of the rationalist subculture, and

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Speaker 1: that means being in the Bay. Unfortunately, the Bay is

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Speaker 1: a nearly impossible place to survive in if you don't

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Speaker 1: have shitloads of money, and one of the only ways

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Speaker 1: to make it in the Bay if you're not rich

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Speaker 1: is to wind up in deeply abusive and illegal rental situations.

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Speaker 1: You know this, David, I I'm not spreading any news

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Speaker 1: to you. Shout out to my landlord, mister lou.

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Speaker 2: So.

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Speaker 1: Ziz winds up in a horrible sublet with a person

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Speaker 1: she describes as an abusive alcoholic. I was there. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if she was the problem in this part.

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Speaker 1: Like I obviously I've got one side of this story,

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Speaker 1: but her claim is that it ends in physical violence.

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Speaker 1: Ziz claims he was to blame, but she also describes

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Speaker 1: a situation where they're like, after a big argument, bump

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Speaker 1: into each other and he calls the cops on her

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Speaker 1: for assault. I wouldn't put it past Ziz to be

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Speaker 1: leaving some parts out of this. But also I know

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Speaker 1: a bunch of people who wound up in horrible sublets

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Speaker 1: with abusive alcoholics who assaulted them in the Bay Area.

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Speaker 2: And then La chrislist is a crap shoot. Craigslist is

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Speaker 2: a crap shoot.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, every time I always I feel like they need

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Speaker 1: to like qualify with like this is just Hisz's account,

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Speaker 1: But also this sounds like a lot of stories I

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Speaker 1: know people have had.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's tough to get by there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so she calls the or he calls the cops

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Speaker 1: on her, and then yeah, they do nothing, and he

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Speaker 1: attacks her in her bedroom that night. So she decides

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Speaker 1: to like he's like throwing a chair at her and shit,

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Speaker 1: So she decides, I got to get out of this

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Speaker 1: terrible fucking sublet, and unfortunately, her next best option, a

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Speaker 1: very common thing in the rationalist community, is to have

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Speaker 1: whole houses rented out that you fill with rationalists who

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Speaker 1: don't have a lot of money. It never rents by

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Speaker 1: the artists yet kind of like artists or like content

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Speaker 1: producer houses, it never explodes. People never have horrible times

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Speaker 1: in these. This particular rationalist house is called liminal because

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Speaker 1: you know, gen Z loves talking about their liminal spaces

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Speaker 1: on the Internet. One resident of the house reacts very

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Speaker 1: negatively when Ziz identifies herself as a non transitioning trans

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Speaker 1: woman and basically asks like, when are you going to leave?

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Speaker 1: So she has, you know, she says that as soon

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Speaker 1: as she arrives one of the other residents's transphobes, she

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Speaker 1: can't stay there very long. Again, all sounds like a

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Speaker 1: very familiar Bay Area housing situation story. She bounces around

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Speaker 1: some short term solutions airbnbs, moving constantly while trying to

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Speaker 1: find work. She gets an interview with Google, but the

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Speaker 1: hiring process there is slow. There's a lot of different

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Speaker 1: stages to it, and it doesn't offer immediate relief from

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Speaker 1: her financial issues. Other potential offers fall through as she

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Speaker 1: conflicts with the fundamental snake oiliness of this era of

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Speaker 1: Silicon Valley development. Ziz blames on the fact that she

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Speaker 1: couldn't feign enthusiasm for companies she didn't believe in. Quote,

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Speaker 1: I was inexperienced with convincing body language, inclusive lies like this.

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Speaker 1: I did not have the right false face, but very

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Speaker 1: quick to think up words to say so, like I'm

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Speaker 1: not good enough at lying that I'm excited about working

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Speaker 1: for an app to you know, help you do your

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Speaker 1: laundry better, which is like a third of the bay.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, yeah, And once again she has like flashes

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Speaker 2: of like, oh, wow, you really you really have strong

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Speaker 2: morals in all the naim Yeah, she's a strong resume, right,

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Speaker 2: it wasn't she does.

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Speaker 1: She wants like an award as a NASA intern, right

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Speaker 1: she's still ye, yeah, she really is good at a

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Speaker 1: lot of this stuff. In all of these Zizians, as

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Speaker 1: silly as their their beliefs about philosophy and like cognitive

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Speaker 1: science are, they're all extremely a comp in their fields. Nearly.

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Speaker 1: It's a it's good evidence of the fact that like

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Speaker 1: it's always a mistake to think of intelligence as like

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Speaker 1: an absolute characteristic, like I am a genius software engineer,

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Speaker 1: therefore I am smart. It's like no, no, no, you

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Speaker 1: you're you're, you're, you're dumb at plenty of things, mister

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Speaker 1: software engineer.

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Speaker 2: I don't sell yourself.

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Speaker 1: Sure. Yeah, So she does start to transition during this

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Speaker 1: period of time. She goes on finasteride, which helps to

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Speaker 1: avoid male pattern baldness, and she starts experimenting with estrogen

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Speaker 1: and anti androgens. She'd wanted to avoid this for I'm

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Speaker 1: sure she had a variety of reasons, but as soon

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Speaker 1: as she starts taking hormones they have such a positive effect.

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Speaker 1: She describes it as a hard to describe felt sense

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Speaker 1: of cognitive benefits, and she decides to say stay on them.

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Speaker 1: By October, she'd committed to start writing a blog about

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Speaker 1: her own feelings and theories on rationalism, and her model

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Speaker 1: here was Yudkowski. She names this blog Sin Seriously, and

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Speaker 1: it was her attempt to convince other rationalists to adopt

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Speaker 1: her belief about like veganism and such. Her first articles

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Speaker 1: are like pretty bland. It's the scattered concepts and thought experiments,

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Speaker 1: very basic stuff like can God create a rock so

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Speaker 1: big God couldn't move it? And then like throwing a

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Speaker 1: rationalist spin on that? So it's you know, a lot

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Speaker 1: of this is like oh, maybe in an area in

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Speaker 1: which college didn't cost two hundred grand, you could have

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Speaker 1: just gotten a philosophy degree, and right, that would have

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Speaker 1: made you happy. Like, right, you just wanted to spend

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Speaker 1: a couple of years talking through silly ideas based on

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Speaker 1: dead Greek.

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Speaker 2: Guys, Well, you know the Bay is the place to

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Speaker 2: do that. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, unfortunately, so she starts to really show an interest

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Speaker 1: early on though, and this is where things get unsettling

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Speaker 1: and enforcement mechanisms, which are methods by which individuals can

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Speaker 1: like blackmail themselves into accomplishing difficult tasks for personal betterment.

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Speaker 1: She writes about an app called b Minder, which lets

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Speaker 1: you set goals and punish yourself with a financial bit

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Speaker 1: penalty if you don't make regular progress. And she's really

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Speaker 1: obsessed with just the concept of using enforcement mechanisms to

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Speaker 1: make people better, writing often you have to break things

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Speaker 1: to make them better. So not a great path going down?

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Speaker 2: Here is she.

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Speaker 1: Following this herself, Like she's working on she's trying to

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Speaker 1: use some of these tactics on herself to make herself

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Speaker 1: to deal with like what she sees is her flaws

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Speaker 1: that's stopping her from you know, saving the cosmos. Great stuff.

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Speaker 1: I've brought pressure to put on yourself.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this poor woman has been under the highest stakes

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Speaker 2: this whole time.

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Speaker 1: Well, and that's again that that comes. That's not Zizz,

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Speaker 1: that's the entire rationalist subculture. The stakes are immediately, we

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Speaker 1: have to save the world from the evil AI that

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Speaker 1: will create hell to punish everybody who doesn't build it,

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Speaker 1: and that actually will talk about this later. That breaks

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Speaker 1: a ton of people in this She is not the

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Speaker 1: only one kind of fracturing her psyche in this community.

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Speaker 1: So right around this time, she's bouncing around short term

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Speaker 1: rentals and like desperately trying to get work. She meets

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Speaker 1: a person named Jasper Wynn, who at that point identified

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Speaker 1: as a trans woman. Now those by Gwynn Danielson and

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Speaker 1: uses by them pronouns. That's what I'm gonna refer to them,

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Speaker 1: But for clarity's sake, I'm gonna call them Gwynn or Danielson,

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Speaker 1: even though they went by a different name at this time,

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Speaker 1: because that's what they're called now. Gwinn was a fan

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Speaker 1: of Zizz's blog and had some complex rationalist theories of

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Speaker 1: her own. They came to believe that each person had

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Speaker 1: multiple personalities stored inside their brain, a sort of like

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Speaker 1: mutation of the left brain right brain hypothesis, and each

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Speaker 1: of these sides of your brain was like a whole,

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Speaker 1: like intact person, right, Like great, yeah, no, cool, No,

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Speaker 1: you guys are gonna be fucking with your head's real heart. Great.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah.

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Speaker 1: So Ziz falls in love with Gwynn's ideas, and she

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Speaker 1: starts bringing them up in rationalist events, trying to brute

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Speaker 1: force them into going mainstream among the community. But people

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Speaker 1: are like, this is a little weird even for us,

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Speaker 1: and she does not succeed in this, and as a result,

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Speaker 1: she and Danielson and a couple of other friends start

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Speaker 1: like talking and theorizing together separately from the bulk of

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Speaker 1: the community. So now again you've had this. They're starting

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Speaker 1: to calve off from the broader subculture, and they're starting

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Speaker 1: to like really like dig ruts for themselves in a

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Speaker 1: specific direction that's leading away from the rest of the rationalists.

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Speaker 2: Literally all that cold stuff, huh.

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Speaker 1: All that colt stuff, all that cold stuff. Now, Gwynn

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Speaker 1: and Ziz largely like bonded over their struggle paying Bay

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Speaker 1: Area rints, and together they stumbled upon a solution beloved

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Speaker 1: by generations of punks and artists in northern California taking

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Speaker 1: to the sea specifically. It's great, it's great. I mean

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Speaker 1: I've known like three separate people who lived on boats

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Speaker 1: in the Oakland Harbor because it was like, this is

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Speaker 1: the only way I can't afford to live in the bay.

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Speaker 2: My little brother went to school right right outside of

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Speaker 2: San Francisco, and his principal lived on a boat right

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Speaker 2: just like a mile away from the school, and everybody

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Speaker 2: loved it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, everybody loved it. I mean, I gotta say,

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Speaker 1: everyone I know who lived on a boat lived on

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Speaker 1: a shitty boat. But I'm also not convinced there are

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Speaker 1: boats that any, boats that stay nice for very long.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels like you would be dank. I guess

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Speaker 2: is the word.

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Speaker 1: Dank is a good description of boat life, I think.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So Gwinn's boat was anchored off the Encenal Basin, and

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Speaker 1: Ziz found this a pretty sweet solution. She goes over

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Speaker 1: to stay over one night and while they're like hanging out,

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Speaker 1: staying up, probably taking drugs, they don't like usually write

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Speaker 1: about it, but from like other community conversations, I think

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Speaker 1: we have to assume an awful lot of the time.

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Speaker 1: When these people are staying up all night and talking,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of like ketamine and stuff being used

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Speaker 1: to that isn't written into the narrative.

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Speaker 2: That also goes along with it, also.

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Speaker 1: Goes along with the Bay Area pills and powers are bigger. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Quote.

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Speaker 1: They talked about how when they were a child, their

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Speaker 1: friend who was a cat, had died and they had

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Speaker 1: to use their own retroactive paraphrasing sworn an oath of

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Speaker 1: vengeance against death. Fucking These are just people doing great,

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Speaker 1: very healthy from the opposite of what you want a

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Speaker 1: kid to learn when their pet dies. Is like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, death is inevitable. It happens to everything. You know,

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Speaker 1: it'll happen to you one day, and it's sad, but

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Speaker 1: just something we have to accept. No, no, no wars death.

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Speaker 2: No. They were like, no, no, no, I can fix this.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I, as a parent have failed in this situation.

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Speaker 1: This was an unsuccessful step in my child's development. Maybe

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Speaker 1: no more pets for a while, Maybe no more pets.

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Speaker 1: Gwynn also spent way too much time online, which is

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Speaker 1: how they wound up reading hundreds of theoretical articles about

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Speaker 1: how AGI artificial general intelligence would destroy the world. And

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Speaker 1: again AGI is like a mainstream term now because a

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Speaker 1: fucking chat GPT came out a couple of years ago

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Speaker 1: and everyone started talking about it at this point two

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Speaker 1: sixteen seventeen. It's only like real people who are really

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Speaker 1: into the industry in a nerdy way who are using

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Speaker 1: that frame, Like regular people on the street don't know

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Speaker 1: what you fucking mean when you're talking about this stuff,

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Speaker 1: but this is a term that is in use among them.

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Speaker 1: And like Ziz Gwynn moved to the Bay Area to

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Speaker 1: get involved in fixing the problem. They were another kin,

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Speaker 1: are you familiar with this online community?

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Speaker 2: Which one other kin? Other kin, No, I have no,

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Speaker 2: I've never heard of that.

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Speaker 1: It's like a it's like the Mormonism of furreedom almost like.

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Speaker 2: That that's that's the same you say, I.

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Speaker 1: Don't mean like it's harmless, right, Like these are people

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Speaker 1: who there's a mix of beliefs. Some of them like

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Speaker 1: literally believe they're like fantasy creatures.

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Speaker 3: Some of them just like yeah to be like yeah,

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Speaker 3: like half identify as like it a non human creature, right.

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Speaker 2: Oh, like their furry persona is they're true?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, kind of that's close enough for government work, and

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Speaker 1: in Gwin's case, it's even different where I don't think

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Speaker 1: they believe they are literally a dragon, but they believe

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Speaker 1: that when there's a singularity and the robot god creates heaven,

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Speaker 1: they'll be given the body of a dragon because the

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Speaker 1: robot god will be able to do that. It's a

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Speaker 1: good singularity at least. That's why this is all so

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Speaker 1: important to them, making sure it's like a nice AI

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Speaker 1: so they'll be able to get their animal friends back

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Speaker 1: and get their dragon body.

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Speaker 2: Tilt time tail as old as time. Again.

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Speaker 1: A lot of this could be avoided by just like

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Speaker 1: processing death and uh, stuff like that a little better.

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Speaker 1: But we don't do that very well in our society anyway.

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Speaker 1: We've got a lot of people who are committed to

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Speaker 1: denying that. So I'm not surprised like this happens at

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Speaker 1: like the corners right Like this is this is just

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Speaker 1: a little downstream from that Brian Johnson guy tracking his

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Speaker 1: erections at night and trying to get the penis of

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Speaker 1: a nineteen year old.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like.

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Speaker 1: A massive sanity gap between these two things.

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Speaker 2: No, it's I think I think it's I think we're

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Speaker 2: drinking from the same Well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so this is a result or so, Zizz

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Speaker 1: commits herself to turning Gwynn to the dark side, which

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Speaker 1: is a term she started to use. Obviously, it's a

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Speaker 1: Star Wars term and it comes out as a result

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Speaker 1: of her obsession with It's called acrasia. Akrasia is an

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Speaker 1: actual Greek term for a lack of will power that

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Speaker 1: leads someone to act in ways that take them further

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Speaker 1: from their goals in life. It's an actual, like I

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Speaker 1: think akrasia often it was like an early term for

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Speaker 1: like what we call adhd right, like people who have difficulty,

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Speaker 1: like focusing on tasks that they need to complete. One

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Speaker 1: of the promises of rationalism was to arm a person

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Speaker 1: with tools to escape this state of being and act

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Speaker 1: more powerfully and effectively in the world. Ziz adds to

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Speaker 1: this some ideas crib from Star Wars. She decides that

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Speaker 1: the quote unquote way of the Jedi, which is like

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Speaker 1: accepting moral restrictions you know about like not murdering people

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Speaker 1: and the like, is a prison for someone who's like

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Speaker 1: truly great and has the opportunity to accomplish important goals. Right,

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Speaker 1: if you're that kind of person, you can't afford to

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Speaker 1: be limited by moral beliefs. So in order to achieve

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Speaker 1: the kind of vegan singularity that she thinks is critical

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Speaker 1: to save the cosmos, she and her fellow rationalists need

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Speaker 1: to free themselves and from the restrictions of the Jedi

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Speaker 1: and become vegan scyth. That's more or less where things

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00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:09,320
Speaker 1: are going here. So here I should note that while

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Speaker 1: Gwynnin's's are spinning out on their own, everything that you're

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Speaker 1: seeing from them, these feelings of grandiosity and cosmic significance,

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Speaker 1: but also paranoid obsession are the norm and rationalist in

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Speaker 1: effective altruist circles. There's a great article in Bloomberg News

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Speaker 1: by Ellen Hewitt. It discusses how many in the EA

401
00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:29,119
Speaker 1: set would suffer paralyzing panic attacks over things like spending

402
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,080
Speaker 1: money on a nice dinner or buying ice cream, obsessing

403
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Speaker 1: over how many people they'd killed by not better optimizing

404
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:39,200
Speaker 1: their expenses, and quote in extreme pockets of the rationality community,

405
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Speaker 1: AI researchers believe their apocalypse related stress was contributing to

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Speaker 1: psychotic breaks. Marie employee, and that's one of these organizations

407
00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:51,040
Speaker 1: created by the people around Yakowski Jessica Taylor had a

408
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Speaker 1: job that sometimes involved imagining extreme AI torture scenarios. As

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Speaker 1: she described it in a post on Less Wrong, the

410
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Speaker 1: worst possible suffering in AI might be able to people

411
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Speaker 1: at work, she says, she in a small team of

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Speaker 1: researchers believed we might make God, but we might make

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Speaker 1: mess up and destroy everything. In twenty seventeen, she was

414
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Speaker 1: hospitalized for three weeks with delusions that she was intrinsically

415
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Speaker 1: evil and had destroyed significant parts of the world with

416
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Speaker 1: my demonic powers, she wrote in her post. Although she

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00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,960
Speaker 1: acknowledged taking psychedelics for therapeutic reasons, she also attributed the

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00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,960
Speaker 1: delusions to her job's blurring of nightmare scenarios. In real life,

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Speaker 1: in an ordinary patient, having fantasies about being the devil

420
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Speaker 1: is considered megalomania, She wrote here. The idea naturally followed

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Speaker 1: from my day to day social environment and was central

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00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:41,000
Speaker 1: to my psychotic breakdown. Oh nah, just taking ketamine and

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Speaker 1: convincing yourself you're the devil, normal rationalist stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, hey, we've all been there, right, We've

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Speaker 2: been there now. In fact, no, this is the least

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Speaker 2: relatable group of people I've ever heard of.

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Speaker 1: No, no, exactly, because it's this like grandiosity, it's this

428
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,840
Speaker 1: absolutely need to whatever else is going on, even if

429
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,400
Speaker 1: you're like the bad guy, feel like what you're doing

430
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,760
Speaker 1: is like of central cosmic significance. It's this fundamental fear

431
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:11,800
Speaker 1: that all is integral to all of these tech guys.

432
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Speaker 1: It's at the core of Elon Musk too, that like,

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Speaker 1: one of these days you're not going to exist and

434
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:18,840
Speaker 1: very few of the things that you valued in your

435
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:21,399
Speaker 1: life are going to exist, and there's still going to

436
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,800
Speaker 1: be a world because that's life.

437
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,919
Speaker 2: That's just yeah, that it's so crazy how it boils

438
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 2: down to just like yeah, man, well I don't know

439
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 2: what you thought was going to happen.

440
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, bro, sorry, Yeah, that's just how that's just how

441
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,440
Speaker 1: it goes. You know, we've got like ten thousand years

442
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:40,000
Speaker 1: of like philosophy and like like thinking and writing on

443
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,440
Speaker 1: the subject of dealing with this, but you didn't take

444
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:46,520
Speaker 1: any humanities and your STEM classes, so you know, you're

445
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 1: just trying to bootstrap it.

446
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, you just watched Star Wars again and decided you

447
00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 2: got it figure it out.

448
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, you watch Star Wars one hundred and thirty seven

449
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,520
Speaker 1: times and figured that was going to your a place

450
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,680
Speaker 1: reading a little bit of fucking Plato or something. Maybe

451
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 1: it didn't work. Also, again the ketamines not helping. No, no, no, no, God,

452
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,280
Speaker 1: to be a fly on that wall, oh god. Yeah,

453
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 1: the rationalist therapists are raking it in.

454
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,280
Speaker 2: Oh man, honestly well deserved.

455
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 1: But yeah, some talk about info hazards.

456
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:20,560
Speaker 2: Jesus.

457
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,880
Speaker 1: So I have to emphasize here again that I want

458
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,200
Speaker 1: to keep going back to the broader rationalist community because

459
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:29,800
Speaker 1: I felt like a risk of this is that I

460
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 1: would just be talking about how crazy this one lady

461
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:33,480
Speaker 1: and her friends were, and it's like, no, no, no,

462
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 1: Everything they're doing, even the stuff that is a split

463
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,160
Speaker 1: off and different in like more extreme than mainstream rationalism,

464
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,360
Speaker 1: is directly related to shit going on in the mainstream

465
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,400
Speaker 1: rationalist community, which is deeply tied into big tech, which

466
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 1: is deeply tied into like the Peter Teal Circle. A

467
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 1: lot of these folks are close to in and around

468
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,239
Speaker 1: the government right now, right, So like that is it's

469
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 1: Ziz is not nearly as much of an outlier as

470
00:23:56,040 --> 00:24:00,359
Speaker 1: a lot of rationalists want people to think. Right Yeah, anyway,

471
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 1: At Rationalists meetups, Ziz began to pushing this whole Vegan

472
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 1: syth thing hard and again meets with little success, but

473
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 1: she and Gwyn gradually start to expand the circle of

474
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,720
Speaker 1: people around them. Meanwhile, in her professional life, that Google

475
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,400
Speaker 1: interview process moves forward. Ziz says that she past every

476
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 1: stage of the process, but that it keeped getting dragged out,

477
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,400
Speaker 1: forcing her to ask her parents for more help. In November,

478
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,479
Speaker 1: around the time her blog started to get a following,

479
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 1: she says Google said she'd passed the committee and would

480
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 1: be hired once she got picked for a team. Now

481
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 1: I don't know what happens after this, she says. Google

482
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 1: asked for proof of address, which she doesn't have. She's

483
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 1: just turned twenty six, and she's not on her parents'

484
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,240
Speaker 1: health insurance either. She's been pages describing what is a

485
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 1: very familiar nightmare scenario to me of like trying to

486
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 1: get proof of address so you can get a job

487
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,879
Speaker 1: and life continue getting like, you know, get on Cali

488
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 1: med and stuff. And I do think it's probably worth

489
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 1: acknowledging that, Like, as her brain is starting to break

490
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,199
Speaker 1: and she's she's getting further and further into all these

491
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 1: delusional ideas. She's also struggling with being off of her parents'

492
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 1: health insurance and like trying to find stable housing in

493
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:03,920
Speaker 1: the bay.

494
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 2: And like that that influences the situation. And still in

495
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 2: the process of transitioning, right.

496
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, exactly, And still in that process of transitioning. Yes,

497
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 1: a heavy workload, you're doing too much to your brain, right, yes, so,

498
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 1: and then she makes the worst possible decision, which is

499
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 1: to live with her friend Gwynn in her tiny sail

500
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 1: in their tiny sailboat which is now anchored by the

501
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 1: Berkeley Marina. Again, this is not like a houseboat. This

502
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:33,920
Speaker 1: is like a sailboat with one small room.

503
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 2: Right, it's got a court like yeah, there's like a bed,

504
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 2: a table in a.

505
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 1: Sink, writing, like a little bathroom probably maybe a kitchenette.

506
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 2: But it's not like livable for two people.

507
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 3: Somebody who's like ever lived into small space with your

508
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 3: roommate knows just like, no matter.

509
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,440
Speaker 2: Where you're at, it's horrible, bad idea.

510
00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:00,440
Speaker 1: And imagine if that's shitty tidy apart meant that you

511
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 1: remember from your past was a boat just disastrous and

512
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,160
Speaker 1: this is not a good situation. This would later write,

513
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 1: I couldn't use my computer as well, I couldn't set

514
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 1: up my three monitors, there was no room, couldn't have

515
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 1: a programming flow state. For nine hours, I had trouble sleeping.

516
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 1: The slightest noise in my mind kept alerting me to

517
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,360
Speaker 1: the possibility that someone like my roommate from several months ago,

518
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 1: was going to attack me in my sleep. So this

519
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 1: is not a healthy situation. And both Gwynnon's's have endured

520
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 1: some specific traumas, and both are also prone to flights

521
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,160
Speaker 1: of grandiosity and delusion. And now they are trapped all day,

522
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 1: every day together in a single room where their various

523
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 1: neurosis are clashing with each other and their only relief

524
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,160
Speaker 1: is talking for hours about how to save the world.

525
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 2: Oh my god, this is a it's a real villain story.

526
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 2: You couldn't get any worse than this.

527
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 1: It couldn't. And it's like, at this point, I don't

528
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 1: think either of them is like intentionally doing anything bad.

529
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 1: You've just you've kind of created a cult where like

530
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,640
Speaker 1: you're trading off on being the cult leader and cult

531
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 1: member for each other, Like you've isolated each other away

532
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 1: from the world, and you're spending time brainwashing each other

533
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: together in your little boats.

534
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, how often do you think they were leaving that boat.

535
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: Not nearly long enough, and Gwynn is on what Ziz

536
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 1: describes as a cocktail of stimulants. Quote mapped out the

537
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 1: cognitive effects of each hour they were on them. They

538
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 1: get very angry if Ziz interrupts their thoughts at the

539
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:37,159
Speaker 1: wrong time, and also like Ziz isn't really sleeping, so

540
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 1: they're just talking for hours and getting on each other's

541
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 1: nerves at the same time, but also like building these

542
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,159
Speaker 1: increasingly elaborate fantasies about how they're going to save the

543
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,879
Speaker 1: cosmos and it's you know, it's not great. Through these

544
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 1: conversations they do develop Gwinn's multiple personalities theory, mixing in

545
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,680
Speaker 1: some of Zizz's own beliefs about good and evil. And

546
00:27:57,720 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 1: I want to quote another passage from that Wired article

547
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: that's summarizes what they come to believe about this. A

548
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 1: person's core consisted of two hemispheres, each one intrinsically good

549
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 1: or non good. In extremely rare cases, they could be

550
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,199
Speaker 1: double good, a condition that so happened with Lesoda identified

551
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: in herself and this is consistently going to identify herself

552
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 1: as intrinsically good, so she's both sides of her personality

553
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 1: are only good. But most people are at best single good,

554
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 1: which means part of them is non good or basically evil,

555
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: and they're at war with this other half of their brain.

556
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: That's a whole person that's evil, which is why the

557
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 1: other people can't be trusted to make decisions. You know, like, increasingly,

558
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 1: this's attitude is going to be like, only intrinsically good

559
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 1: people can be trusted to make good decisions, only the

560
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 1: double goods, only the double goods. That's such like a

561
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 1: you know, you're making your own lig or well speech.

562
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 1: This this is a bad sign. Yeah, so, Zizz is

563
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 1: google ambitions fall apart at this time. They don't really

564
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 1: give us a good explanation as to why. I kind

565
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: of think they started bombarding their contact with Google with

566
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: like requests about why the process wasn't going faster, and

567
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: maybe Google was like, ah, maybe we don't need this person.

568
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: Ziz concludes failing at Google was good because she's gotten

569
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 1: she'd gotten ten thousand dollars from unemployment at this point.

570
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 1: Quote this means I had some time. If they hired

571
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 1: me soon, it would deprive me of at least several

572
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 1: months of freedom, and which, of course she is continuing

573
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: to work out her theories with Gwynn on the sailboat. Also,

574
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: that's freedom, It's really not freedom.

575
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 2: I maybe work. I heard the Google campus has a

576
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 2: lot of things to do, and it's.

577
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: The kind of the what if. I think maybe at

578
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 1: this point she still could have pulled out of this

579
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 1: tailspin if she'd gotten a job and worked around other

580
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 1: people and socialized not on the sailboat, but also a

581
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: real consistent thing with Zizz is at this point she

582
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: has no willingness to do the kind of compromise. And

583
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 1: I'm not just talking about the moral compromise, but like,

584
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 1: even going to work a job for a company, you're

585
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 1: going to spend a large part of your day doing

586
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: a thing that like you wouldn't be doing otherwise, right,

587
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 1: because that's what a job generally, that's just work. And

588
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 1: Ziz feels like she can't handle the idea of doing

589
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 1: anything but reading fan fiction and theorizing about how to

590
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: give herself superpowers. Right, that's the most important thing in

591
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 1: the world because the stakes are so high, So she

592
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 1: like like ethically can't square herself with doing anything she

593
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 1: needs to succeed in this industry where she has the

594
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: skill to succeed and this is this is another trait

595
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 1: she's got in common with the rest of the rationalist

596
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 1: EA subculture that that Bloomberg article interviewed a guy named

597
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 1: quaou Chu Yuan, a former rationalist and PhD candidate who

598
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: dropped out of his PhD program in order to work

599
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: in AI risk. He stopped saving for retirement and cut

600
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: off his friends so he could donate all of his

601
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 1: money to you know, EA causes and because his friends

602
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: were distracting him from saving the world. And these are

603
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 1: all this all cult stuff, right. Cults want you to

604
00:30:58,000 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 1: cut off from your friends, they want you to give

605
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 1: them all your money. He's doing but he's doing it

606
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 1: like independently, Like there's not like a single leader. He's

607
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 1: not like living on a compound with them. It's just

608
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 1: once you kind of take these beliefs seriously, the things

609
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 1: that you that you will do to yourself are the

610
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 1: things people in cults have done to them.

611
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 2: Right.

612
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 1: In an interview with Business Insider, Yan said, you can

613
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 1: really manipulate people into doing all kinds of crazy stuff

614
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:26,239
Speaker 1: if you can convince them this is how you can

615
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: prevent the end of the world. Once you get into

616
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: that frame, it really distorts your ability to care about

617
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 1: anything else.

618
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 2: Man.

619
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: That's yeah, that's kind of a thing. It's harder to

620
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 1: talk about this than like could people talk about Ziz

621
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 1: as like, oh, it's a cult leader and she had

622
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 1: her you know, Vegan trans Ai death cult or something,

623
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 1: and you know, I feel like that's not close enough

624
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 1: to the truth to get what's like to get how

625
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 1: this happened, right, because what happens with Ziz is very cultish.

626
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: But Ziz is one of a number of different people

627
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 1: who have cabbed off of the rationalism community and had

628
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 1: disastrous impacts. But it happens constantly with these people because.

629
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 2: Like it's such an engine for it.

630
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 1: Yes, it's an engine for making cults.

631
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 2: It's it's this is a cult factory for sure.

632
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, you'reating a cult factory.

633
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 2: Oh no, I give you the base ideas and then

634
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 2: you can just kind of franchise it how you'd like.

635
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, And a lot of prominent rationalists who news is

636
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 1: at the time have since gone out of their way

637
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 1: to describe her as like, you know, someone on the fringes.

638
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 1: Anna Salomon of Seafar described her as a young person

639
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 1: who was hanging around and who I suspect wanted to

640
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: be important, and Anna claim, is there anyone here.

641
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 2: Who doesn't want that?

642
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 1: Within this No, that's all of them, right, that's the

643
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 1: whole community. And like Anna was emailing directly gave that

644
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 1: gave Ziz, like some of the advice that Ziz considered

645
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: like key to her moving to the Bay Area and stuff.

646
00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,959
Speaker 1: Right like these these these people, like the rationalists are

647
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 1: really really want you to think that this was just

648
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 1: like some fringe person. But she's very much tied in

649
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 1: to all of this stuff, right, So for her part,

650
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: Ziz doesn't deny that failing to convince other rationalists was

651
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 1: part of why she pulled away from mainstream rationalism. But

652
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 1: she's also going to claim that a big reason for

653
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 1: her break is sexual abuse among people leading in the

654
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: rationalist community. And there's a specific case that she'll cite

655
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 1: later that doesn't happen to until twenty eighteen, But this

656
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 1: is a problem people were discussing in twenty seventeen when

657
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 1: she's living on that boat. The representative story is the

658
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 1: case of Sonia Joseph, who was the basis of that

659
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 1: Bloomberg News piece I've quoted from a couple of times

660
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 1: and it's a bummer of a story. Sonya was fourteen

661
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 1: when she first read Yadkowski's Harry Potter and the Methods

662
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 1: of Rationality, which is set her on the path that

663
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 1: led her to moving to the Bay Area in order

664
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 1: to get involved in the rationalist EA set. And she's

665
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 1: focused on the field of AI risk And I'm going

666
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: to read it a quote.

667
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 3: This week has been so long that I completely erased

668
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 3: the Harry Potter part of this story from my brain.

669
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 1: It's never drops too far below the surface. I cannot

670
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 1: overemphasize how important this Harry Potter fan fiction is to

671
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 1: all these murders. I mean primary texts and getting abused. Yes, yes,

672
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 1: it's a primary text of the movement. Wow, I'm going

673
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 1: to read a quote from that Bloomberg article. Sonia was

674
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: encouraged when she was twenty two to have dinner with

675
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 1: a fortyish startup founder in the rationalist sphere because he

676
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 1: had a close connection to Peter Teal. At dinner, the

677
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 1: man bragg that Yudkowski had moderate modeled a core Harry

678
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 1: Potter like fit professor in that fanfic on him. Joseph

679
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 1: says that he also argued that it was normal for

680
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 1: a twelve year old girl to have sexual relationships with

681
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 1: adult men, and that such relationships were a noble way

682
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 1: of transferring knowledge to a younger generation. Then, she says

683
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 1: he followed her home and insisted on staying over. She

684
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 1: says he slept on the floor of her living room

685
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 1: and that she felt unsafe until he left in the morning. Jesus,

686
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 1: so great. You know, bragging about your Harry Potter, how

687
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 1: you helped inspire the Harry Potter fan, and then explaining

688
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 1: how twelve year old girls should have sex with adult men.

689
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 2: Good stuff.

690
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 1: I got rational.

691
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 2: I gotta say that's a crazy brag to get chicks. Yeah, no,

692
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 2: it was, you know, one of those characters. I'm the snape.

693
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm the snape of this. By the way, what

694
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 1: do you think about twelve year olds? Awesome? I have

695
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:23,280
Speaker 1: a close connection to Peter Teel.

696
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. Cool o man.

697
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 1: As that Bloomberg article makes clear, this is not an

698
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 1: isolated issue within rationalism.

699
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 2: Quote.

700
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 1: Sexual harassment and abuse or distressing are distressingly common. According

701
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:40,760
Speaker 1: to interviews with eight women at all levels of the community,

702
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 1: Many young ambitious women described a similar trajectory that were

703
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 1: initially drawn in by the ideas then became immersed in

704
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 1: the social scene. Often that meant to attending parties at

705
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,320
Speaker 1: EA or rationalist group houses, or getting added to jargon

706
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,800
Speaker 1: filled Facebook messenger chat groups with hundreds of like minded people.

707
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 1: The eight women say casual misogyny threaded through the scene

708
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 1: on the low end brick. The rationalist adjacent writer says

709
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 1: a prominent rationalist once told her condescendingly that she was

710
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,240
Speaker 1: a five year old and a hot twenty year old's body.

711
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 1: Relationships with much older men were common, as was polyamory.

712
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,359
Speaker 1: Now there was inherently harmful, but several women say those

713
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 1: norms became tools to help influential older men get more partners.

714
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 1: And this is also this isn't just rationalism, that is

715
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: the California ideology. That is the Bay Area tech set, right, yeah,

716
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 1: very techy. Yes, a man, and it's all super fucking

717
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 1: gross the whole year a five year old and a

718
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 1: hot twenty year old's body thing.

719
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 2: What the fuck? Man?

720
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,320
Speaker 1: How do you say that? Not hurl yourself off of

721
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 1: the San Francisco Bay Bridge?

722
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:46,959
Speaker 2: Vile?

723
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 1: That's fucked up, dude, that's bad speaking of bad to

724
00:36:52,760 --> 00:37:02,320
Speaker 1: the bone are sponsors? Ah, we're back, So This is

725
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,240
Speaker 1: important to understand in a series about this very strange

726
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,840
Speaker 1: person and the strange beliefs that she developed that influenced

727
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 1: several murders. Ziz had many of the traits of a

728
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 1: cult leader, but again, she's also a victim first of

729
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 1: the cult dynamics inherent to rationalism. And what she's doing

730
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: next is she breaks away with a small loyal group

731
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: of friends, and she does create a physical situation that

732
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:25,800
Speaker 1: much more resembles the kind of cults we're used to

733
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 1: dealing with, particularly scientology, because next she's going to take

734
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 1: Oh wow, me and Gwnn living alone on this boat.

735
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:34,279
Speaker 1: We kind of hate each other and neither of us

736
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 1: is sleeping, and our emotional health is terrible. But we've

737
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 1: made so many much progress on our ideas. Maybe we

738
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 1: should Maybe we should make this a bigger thing, right,

739
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,839
Speaker 1: Maybe we should get a bunch of rationalists all living

740
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 1: together on boats.

741
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 2: She needs a work life balance.

742
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, no.

743
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 1: What she thinks she needs is that she calls it

744
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: the Rationalist fleet, which is she wants to get a

745
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:00,320
Speaker 1: bunch of community members to buy several boat bats and

746
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 1: live anchored in the bay to avoid high Bay area

747
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 1: rent so they can spend all their time talking and

748
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 1: plotting out ideas for saving the cosmos. Oh man, so great, and.

749
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 2: I get it right. It's expensive here. I want to

750
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,280
Speaker 2: get some boats with my friends. It does sound cool.

751
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: We won't go insane together, obviously, you know. She buys

752
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 1: a twenty four foot boat for six hundred dollars off

753
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 1: of Craigslist. And I don't know what you have boats,

754
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 1: but I know you're not getting a good one for

755
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 1: just six hundred dollars. No. No, like a living boat,

756
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 1: like a full boat, like a foot boat. Yes, a

757
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:41,359
Speaker 1: full boat.

758
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 2: Oh man, that had to be a piece of shit,

759
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 2: to be a shitty, shitty, colossal piece of shit. Yeah.

760
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,359
Speaker 1: She names it the Black Signet, and she starts trying

761
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 1: to convince some of her idea a lot of these

762
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 1: people who have gathered around her to get in on

763
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 1: the project. Eventually, she, Danielson, and a third person puts

764
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 1: together the money to buy a boat that's going to

765
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 1: be like the center of their fleet, a seventy year

766
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: old Navy tug boat named the Caleb, which was anchored

767
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 1: in Alaska. This is like a ninety four foot boat.

768
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:13,399
Speaker 1: It's a sizable boat, and it is also very old

769
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 1: and in terrible shape. That's the that's the crown jewel

770
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 1: of the food right right, that's our flagship. So man

771
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 1: Danielson sale, they buy this thing with this third guy,

772
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,800
Speaker 1: Dan Powell, who's at least a navy veteran, So like,

773
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:36,359
Speaker 1: you know, okay, that boot calls boat adjacent, but he's

774
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:40,239
Speaker 1: I get the feeling. Nobody says this, but David Powell

775
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,399
Speaker 1: says that he put tens of thousands of dollars into

776
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: buying the Caleb. And I just know from what Danielson

777
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 1: and Ziz wrote about their finances, neither of them had

778
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 1: nearly that much money. So I think, by far he

779
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,839
Speaker 1: invests the most in this project. And I don't want

780
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 1: to insult the guy, but he says he did it

781
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 1: because he quote considered buying the boat to be a

782
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 1: good investment, which boats aren't. Boats are never an investment comically,

783
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:12,800
Speaker 1: so like known to nothing depreciates like fucking raw salmon

784
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 1: depreciates slower than a boat. I think his attitude is

785
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,399
Speaker 1: I'm going to become like the slumlord of a bunch

786
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 1: of or at least landlord to a bunch of boat rationalists.

787
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:28,360
Speaker 2: But I think correct.

788
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 1: I don't know how you expect this to pay off

789
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 1: seventy year old tug boat for a bunch of like

790
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 1: poor rationalists, punk kids to live in. Who was that

791
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:43,800
Speaker 1: ever supposed to work? What's the P and L statement

792
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 1: you put together here?

793
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 2: What was the what was the timeline on him getting

794
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 2: his money back?

795
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 1: He thought, Oh god, I have no idea. He absolutely

796
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 1: takes a bath on this ship, right, yeah, he claims,

797
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:01,920
Speaker 1: And I belie leave him that Ziz lied to him

798
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 1: about the whole scenario to get his money. I do

799
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:07,799
Speaker 1: think this was essentially a con from her, he says.

800
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,320
Speaker 1: Quote Ziz led me to believe that she had established

801
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 1: contacts in the bay and that it would be easy

802
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:13,840
Speaker 1: for us to at least get a slip, if not

803
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 1: one that was approved for overnight use. And as it

804
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 1: turns out, when we were coming through the inside passage

805
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 1: from Alaska, it was revealed that we did not have

806
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:21,359
Speaker 1: a place to arrive.

807
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:26,320
Speaker 2: Wait, oh, I didn't realize he sailed it down from Alaska.

808
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, they all sail it together, them and a couple

809
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 1: other rationalists that they pick up. They make a post

810
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 1: on the internet being like, hey, any irrationalists want to

811
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:39,800
Speaker 1: sail a boat down from Alaska, talk about our ideas

812
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 1: while we live on a boat.

813
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 2: Oh man, so these people need space, yes, just get

814
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 2: a warehouse.

815
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, Well the ghost ship fire had happened by

816
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,240
Speaker 1: that point, so I don't think warehouse space was easy

817
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 1: to get. Yeah, but this, I think this would have

818
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 1: I think you're right. In an earlier era, they have

819
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:02,919
Speaker 1: just wound up living in like a warehouse and maybe

820
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,839
Speaker 1: all died in the horrible fire because that there were

821
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 1: issues with that kind of life too, but they would

822
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:10,880
Speaker 1: have been an option besides the boat thing. Anyway, the

823
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:12,280
Speaker 1: Caleb is not in good shape.

824
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 2: Again.

825
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,320
Speaker 1: This boat is seventy plus years old. It is only

826
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 1: livable by punk standards, and while it was large enough

827
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:19,839
Speaker 1: it is a ninety four foot boat you can keep

828
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 1: some people on there, it's also way too big to

829
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 1: anchor in most municipal marinas, especially since the boat has

830
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 1: three thousand gallons of incredibly toxic diesel fuel and it's

831
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 1: not really seaworthy, which means there's this constant risk of

832
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: poisoning the water as it sits in that the authorities

833
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 1: are just going to be consistently like, guys, you can't

834
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 1: have this here, guys, you simply can't have this here,

835
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: so they just got.

836
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 2: To operate out and inter national waters like a cruise ship.

837
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 1: No, they're just kind of illegally anchoring places and hoping

838
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 1: that it's fine and periodically getting boarded over it. Another

839
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 1: crew member on the right down from Alaska who's just

840
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 1: kind of there. They're just there, you know, for the adventure.

841
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 1: So they they leave and don't come back after they

842
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 1: get to the bay. But this person expressed an opinion

843
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:08,360
Speaker 1: that Ziz consistently came off as creepy but not scary.

844
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,320
Speaker 1: At one point, he says that she confronted him and

845
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 1: told him he was transgender, and when he's like, no,

846
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,320
Speaker 1: I'm really not, she told him he was.

847
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:16,879
Speaker 2: Yes.

848
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 1: She does this a lot, tells people I know that

849
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 1: you're this this is and it works. Like that's how

850
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 1: a number of her followers get to her. But she

851
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:26,839
Speaker 1: also it doesn't work a lot of time. A lot

852
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:29,360
Speaker 1: of people are like, no, I'm not you know whatever

853
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 1: it is you're saying. She does this to Gwinn too,

854
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 1: so I don't doubt his story. Like she just kind

855
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 1: of decides things about people and then tries to brute

856
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 1: force them into accepting that about herself. And when there

857
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,320
Speaker 1: are people who are like both desperate for like approval

858
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,879
Speaker 1: and affection and also who are housing insecure and need

859
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:49,760
Speaker 1: the boat or wherever to live with her, those people

860
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 1: feel a lot a number of them feel like a

861
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 1: significant poll to just kind of accept whatever Ziz is

862
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 1: saying about them.

863
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, when you're desperate in that way, you

864
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:02,279
Speaker 2: kind of definitely find yourself to have a roof over

865
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 2: your head, like.

866
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, And it's a very normal cult thing, right,

867
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,319
Speaker 1: Like this is an aspect of all of that kind

868
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:11,360
Speaker 1: of behavior. Now by this point, a few other people

869
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:13,360
Speaker 1: have come to live in the Rationalist fleet. One of

870
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:17,400
Speaker 1: them is Imma Borhanian, a former Google engineer, and Alex Leatham,

871
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 1: a budding mathematician. The flotilla became a sort of marooned

872
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:25,359
Speaker 1: aquatic salon. Wired quotes Ziz as emailing to a friend

873
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 1: at the time, We've been somewhat isolated from the rationalist

874
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 1: community for a while, and then the course developed a

875
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,400
Speaker 1: significant chunk of unique art of rationality and theories of

876
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 1: psychology aimed at solving our problems. Excited for this psychology

877
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:42,720
Speaker 1: you built on the boat, yeah, Wired continues as Lesoda

878
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 1: articulated their goals had moved beyond real estate into a

879
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: more grandiose realm. We are built trying to build a cabal,

880
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 1: she wrote. The aim was to find abnormally intrinsically good

881
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 1: people and turn them all into Gervais sociopaths, creating a

882
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 1: fundamentally type of group than I have heard of existing before.

883
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,759
Speaker 1: Sociopathy was a road would allow the group members to

884
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 1: operate unponed by the external world.

885
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 2: Yeah that was because you had said that before, right, Yeah,

886
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 2: they had been that's sort of what they're looking to be.

887
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're obsessed with this idea of which is initially

888
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 1: like kind of a joke about the office, but they're like, no, no, no,

889
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:18,239
Speaker 1: it actually is really good to have this sociopath at

890
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 1: the top who like moves the and manipulates these like

891
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: lesser like fools and whatnot and puts them into positions

892
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 1: below them. Like that's how we need what we need

893
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 1: to be in order to gain control of the levels

894
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 1: of power, we have to make ourselves into Ricky Gervais sociopaths.

895
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 1: Yeah great, what a good ideology. I love that they

896
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 1: still love pop culture though you know they're obsessed with it.

897
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 1: And again, this is you can't talk about this kind

898
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: of shit if you're if you're regularly having conversations with

899
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 1: people outside of your bubble.

900
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 2: Like exactly it's the thing. Yeah, if you have somewhere

901
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 2: to go, yeah, if you have anywhere to go this camp.

902
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 1: Yes, yes. If you've got a friend who's like a

903
00:45:57,560 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 1: nurse or a contract if drinks with once a week

904
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 1: and you just talk about your ideas once, they're gonna

905
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:04,439
Speaker 1: be like, hey, this is bad.

906
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 2: You need to stop.

907
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 1: You're going out a bad road. Do you need to

908
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 1: stay with me?

909
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:14,240
Speaker 2: Are you okay? This is clearly a cousin. Yes, someone

910
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 2: This would be so upsetting for someone to just casually

911
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 2: talk about it like a paint and sip or like.

912
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:33,760
Speaker 1: Ricky Gervas, somebody there. Breaks with mainstream rationalism had gone terminal.

913
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:34,400
Speaker 2: GW.

914
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 1: Gwynn criticized the rest of the central rationalist community for

915
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 1: quote not taking heroic responsibility for the outcome of this world.

916
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 1: In addition to the definitely accurate claims of sexual abuse

917
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 1: within rationalism, they ledge organizations like Seafar were actively transphobic.

918
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 1: I don't know how true that is. Some of the

919
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 1: articles I've read. There's a lot of trans rationalists will

920
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:57,319
Speaker 1: be like, No, there's a very high population of trans

921
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 1: people within the rationalist community. So people just agree about this.

922
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:02,320
Speaker 1: It's not my place to come to a conclusion. But

923
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 1: this is one of the things that Ziz says about

924
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 1: the central rationalist community. Ziz had concluded that transgender people

925
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 1: were the best people to build a cabal around because

926
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 1: they quote from Zizz's blog, had unusually high life force.

927
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:19,239
Speaker 1: Ziz believed that the mental powers locked within the small

928
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 1: community of simpatico rationalists they'd gathered together were enough to

929
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:24,840
Speaker 1: alter the fate of the cosmos if everyone could be

930
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:26,960
Speaker 1: jail broken into sociopaths.

931
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 2: And yeah, these are all double goods as well.

932
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 1: Well, no, she's the only double good. Actually, she becomes

933
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 1: increasing and convinced that they're all just single good right,

934
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 1: And this is like her beliefs about heroism from the

935
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 1: last episode. If you've got the community and the hero,

936
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 1: the community's job is to support the hero, right.

937
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 2: No, it is like blind support, right, blind support, no

938
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 2: matter what.

939
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:52,360
Speaker 1: And a lot of the languages is using here in

940
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 1: addition to being you know, rationalist language. This is all

941
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 1: like scientology mixed with gaming and fantasy media. She talks

942
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 1: about the need to install new mental tech on she

943
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:05,800
Speaker 1: and her friends. They which is like tech is like

944
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 1: a scientology term, right, Like that's that's like a big

945
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 1: thing that they say. She and her circle start dressing differently.

946
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 1: Ziz starts wearing like all black robes and stuff to

947
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:17,720
Speaker 1: make her look like a syth or some sort of wizard.

948
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:22,280
Speaker 1: Her community adopts the name vegan anarco transhumanism and starts

949
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 1: unironically referring to themselves as vegan scyth.

950
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 2: In the boat community when they move in.

951
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, just like what I just wanted to I'm just

952
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 1: an alcoholic. What's happening? I just wanted to be like

953
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:37,759
Speaker 1: Quint from John's Oh No.

954
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just here because my wife left me.

955
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 1: Think a different way than a great White attack. Now

956
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:46,439
Speaker 1: looking bad?

957
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 2: Yikes? Oh man.

958
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 1: So around this time, Gwynn claims she came up with

959
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 1: a tactic for successfully separating and harnessing the power of

960
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 1: different hemispheres of someone's brain. The tactic was uni himus

961
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:03,399
Speaker 1: spheric sleep, and this is a process by which only

962
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 1: one half of your brain sleeps at a time. In

963
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:09,880
Speaker 1: a critical write up, publishes a warning before the killings

964
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:12,960
Speaker 1: that are to come. A rationalist named Apala Mojave writes,

965
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:15,799
Speaker 1: normally it is not possible for human beings to sleep

966
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:18,800
Speaker 1: with only one hemisphere. However, a weak form of UHS

967
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 1: can be achieved by stimulating one half of the body

968
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 1: and resting the other like hypnosis are fasting. This is

969
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:27,800
Speaker 1: a vulnerable psychological state for a person entering UHS requires

970
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 1: the sleeper to be exhausted. It also has disorienting effects,

971
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:33,880
Speaker 1: so they are not quite themselves. And I disagree with

972
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:36,240
Speaker 1: them that, like, there's no, they're not just actually sleeping

973
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:38,279
Speaker 1: with only one hemisphere. And in fact, I think they

974
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:44,840
Speaker 1: may have taken this idea from Warhammer forty thousand, because wors.

975
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:46,840
Speaker 2: Do because yeah, what are you talking about?

976
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's not a thing. Like, yes, if you

977
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 1: don't let yourself sleep for long periods of time and

978
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:57,479
Speaker 1: like kind of let yourself zone into a meditative state,

979
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 1: you'll get a trippy effect. You will become altered. You're

980
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 1: altering your state, and you cant This is why colts

981
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:08,400
Speaker 1: deprive people of sleep. You can fuck with people's heads

982
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 1: a lot when they're in that space, but this isn't

983
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 1: what's happening.

984
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:15,759
Speaker 2: I like to think of them on on the boat,

985
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:17,840
Speaker 2: just only using one half of their body.

986
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:22,680
Speaker 1: Line right, eye open, watching the office.

987
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 2: Furiously taking notes.

988
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:30,720
Speaker 1: So this is how that write up describes the process

989
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:33,720
Speaker 1: of uni hemispheric sleep. One you need to be tired.

990
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:35,920
Speaker 1: Two you need to be laying down or sitting up.

991
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:37,880
Speaker 1: It is important that you stay in a comfortable position

992
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 1: that won't require it to you to move very much.

993
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 1: In either case, you want to close one eye and

994
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:44,200
Speaker 1: keep the other open. Distract the open eye with some

995
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:47,239
Speaker 1: kind of engagement. Eventually you should feel yourself begin to

996
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 1: fall asleep on one side. That side will also become numb.

997
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 1: The degree of numbness is a good way to track

998
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 1: how deep into sleep the side is. Once into UHS,

999
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:57,320
Speaker 1: it is supposed to be possible to infer which aspects

1000
00:50:57,320 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 1: of your personality are associated with which side of the brain.

1001
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:04,839
Speaker 1: And the goal of hemispheric sleep is to jail break

1002
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 1: the mind into psychopathy fully right, And that's how Ziz

1003
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:10,319
Speaker 1: describes it is that's the goal.

1004
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:12,279
Speaker 2: That's the goal. That's their goal.

1005
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 1: Got to make ourselves into psychopaths so we can save

1006
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 1: the world. But it also gets used. You could use

1007
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 1: it to like, I have this thing, I don't like

1008
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 1: that I react this way in this situation. So get

1009
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 1: me into this sleep pattern and you like talk me

1010
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:27,040
Speaker 1: through and we'll figure out why I'm doing it, and

1011
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:29,879
Speaker 1: we'll They describe it as using tech to upgrade their

1012
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:35,399
Speaker 1: mental capabilities, right, so they're just kind of brainwashing each other.

1013
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:38,920
Speaker 1: They're like fucking around with with some pretty potentially dangerous stuff.

1014
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 1: And again, drugs are definitely involved in a lot of

1015
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 1: aspects of this, which which is not usually written up,

1016
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:49,800
Speaker 1: but you could you just have to infer given that

1017
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:53,200
Speaker 1: there's some disagreement or there's some disagreement around all this.

1018
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:55,080
Speaker 1: But it seems accurate to say that Gwynn is the

1019
00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:58,279
Speaker 1: one who came up with the hemispheric sleep idea, but

1020
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:01,120
Speaker 1: a lot of the language around how tactic it was

1021
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:03,520
Speaker 1: used and what it was supposed to do came from Ziz.

1022
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 1: And again, the process is just sleep deprivation.

1023
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 2: Right.

1024
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:11,359
Speaker 1: This is cult stuff. It's part of how cults brainwash people.

1025
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:15,040
Speaker 1: But it also wouldn't have seemed inherently suspicious to rationalists

1026
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:19,360
Speaker 1: because part of that subculture. Being part of that subculture

1027
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:21,880
Speaker 1: and going to those events had already normalized a slightly

1028
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:24,320
Speaker 1: less radical version of this behavior, as this piece in

1029
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:29,399
Speaker 1: Bloomberg explains, at house parties, rationalists spent time debugging each other,

1030
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:33,440
Speaker 1: engaging in a confrontational style of interrogation that would supposedly

1031
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 1: yield more rational thoughts. Sometimes, to probe further, they experimented

1032
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 1: with psychedelics and tried jail breaking their minds to crack

1033
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,560
Speaker 1: open their consciousness and make them more influential or agentic.

1034
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 1: Several people in Taylor and this is one of the

1035
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 1: sources sphere had similar psychotic episodes. One died by suicide

1036
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 1: in twenty eighteen and another in twenty twenty one. So

1037
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:55,279
Speaker 1: in the mainstream rationalist subculture, they are also trying to

1038
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:58,440
Speaker 1: like consciously hack their brains using a mix of like

1039
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:02,800
Speaker 1: drugs and meditation and social abuse, and people kill themselves

1040
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 1: as a result of like the outcomes of this. This

1041
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 1: is already a problem in the mainstream subculture.

1042
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:11,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, let alone this extremist offshoot right yep.

1043
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 1: In her own writings at the time, Ziz describes hideous

1044
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 1: fights with Gwinn in which Gwynn what tries to mentally

1045
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:22,640
Speaker 1: dominate in mind control Ziz they've both become believers and

1046
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:26,400
Speaker 1: new theories is has that's basically like she uses the

1047
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:29,560
Speaker 1: term mana, which she is. She describes as like your

1048
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 1: ability to persuade people, which is, if you can convince

1049
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:34,800
Speaker 1: someone of something, it's evidence that you have an inherent

1050
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:37,960
Speaker 1: level of like magical power. And someone with naturally high

1051
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:42,160
Speaker 1: manna like Ziz can literally mind control people with low manna.

1052
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 1: That's what she believes she's doing whenever she tries to

1053
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:48,759
Speaker 1: talk someone into something about themselves, is she's mind controlling them,

1054
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:51,719
Speaker 1: and she and Gwinn have mind control battles. At one

1055
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 1: point they start having like one of these arguments where

1056
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:58,760
Speaker 1: basically Gwinn threatens to mind control Ziz and Ziz threatens

1057
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:01,680
Speaker 1: Gwin back, and this starts of verbal escalation. And the

1058
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 1: way Ziz describes this escalation, which is, again these are

1059
00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:08,520
Speaker 1: two sleep deprived, traumatized people fucking with each other's heads

1060
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:11,239
Speaker 1: on a boat. But the way that Ziz describes the

1061
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 1: escalation cycle is going to be important because this has

1062
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:16,440
Speaker 1: a lot to do with the logic of the murders

1063
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:18,799
Speaker 1: that are to come. I said that if they are,

1064
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:20,880
Speaker 1: we're going to defend a right to be attacking me

1065
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 1: on some level and treat fighting back as a new

1066
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:25,839
Speaker 1: aggression and cause to escalate. I would not at any

1067
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 1: point back down. And if our conflicting definitions of the

1068
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:31,560
Speaker 1: ground state were no further retaliation was necessary. Meant that

1069
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:34,960
Speaker 1: we were consigned to a runaway positive feedback loop of revenge.

1070
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:37,239
Speaker 1: So be it. And if that was true, we might

1071
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 1: as well try to kill each other right then and there,

1072
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 1: in the darkness of the Caleb's Bridge at night, where

1073
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:43,920
Speaker 1: we were both sitting lying under things in a cramped space,

1074
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:47,200
Speaker 1: I became intensely worried they could stand up faster. Consider

1075
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:50,200
Speaker 1: the idea from World War One mobilization is tantamount to

1076
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:53,720
Speaker 1: a declaration of war. I stood up, still silent, waiting

1077
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:55,560
Speaker 1: see see.

1078
00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:00,759
Speaker 2: First off, and there's other people there is Well, it's

1079
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:01,800
Speaker 2: not just yes.

1080
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:06,360
Speaker 1: And just like the logic of well, obviously if you

1081
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:08,360
Speaker 1: attack me, then I'm going to counterattack you, and then

1082
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 1: you're going to counterattack me, which means eventually will kill

1083
00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:12,279
Speaker 1: each other. So we should just kill each other now,

1084
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:14,840
Speaker 1: Like when you are taking your advice on how to

1085
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:18,680
Speaker 1: handle social conflict from the warring European powers that got

1086
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:23,360
Speaker 1: into World War One, maybe not a good like positive example.

1087
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 2: It's just so like, even in understanding how they got there,

1088
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:37,640
Speaker 2: it still is such a stress. Like, even having all

1089
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:38,799
Speaker 2: this back, it's still like.

1090
00:55:39,239 --> 00:55:42,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, really taking some leaps, It's it's yeah, I mean

1091
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:44,320
Speaker 1: just having a fight with your friend and then opening

1092
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:46,840
Speaker 1: your locket which has like Kaiser Vilhelm and the Tzar

1093
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:49,040
Speaker 1: in it and going what would you guys do here?

1094
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:52,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, ancestors guide me.

1095
00:55:56,440 --> 00:55:57,920
Speaker 1: And again, but you know, part of what's going on

1096
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:01,640
Speaker 1: here is this timeless decision theory bullshit, right. Ziz believes

1097
00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:03,839
Speaker 1: that she makes it clear at this point when they

1098
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:07,280
Speaker 1: start having a conflict that the stakes will immediately escalate

1099
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:10,440
Speaker 1: to life or death. Gwinn won't risk fucking with her, right,

1100
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:13,840
Speaker 1: but by doing this, she also immediately creates a situation

1101
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:17,360
Speaker 1: where she feels unsafe. However, in that conflict, Gwynn yields,

1102
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:19,839
Speaker 1: and Ziz concludes that the technique works.

1103
00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:20,520
Speaker 2: Right, and so.

1104
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:24,680
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, what she thinks her man is strong and

1105
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:27,839
Speaker 1: this is a good idea for handling all conflicts. Right.

1106
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:30,719
Speaker 1: So I'm going to increasingly teach all these people who

1107
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:33,879
Speaker 1: are listening to me that this is the escalation loop

1108
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:39,040
Speaker 1: that you handle every conflict with, right, great stuff. One

1109
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:40,719
Speaker 1: of the young people who got drawn as is at

1110
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:43,359
Speaker 1: this time was Maya Passek, who blogged under the name

1111
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:46,839
Speaker 1: Squirrel in Hell. She wrote about mainstream rationalist stuff, citing

1112
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 1: Yakowski and Elon Musk, but in her blog there's like

1113
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:53,319
Speaker 1: a pattern of depressive thought. In one twenty sixteen post,

1114
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:56,799
Speaker 1: she mused about whether or not experiencing joy and awe

1115
00:56:56,960 --> 00:57:00,239
Speaker 1: might be bad because it biases your perception. So this

1116
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:02,520
Speaker 1: is this is a young person who I think is

1117
00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 1: probably is dealing with a lot of depressive.

1118
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:07,840
Speaker 2: Yessues and the classic stinking thinking.

1119
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:11,319
Speaker 1: Right, and maybe the community is not super helpful to her.

1120
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:14,320
Speaker 1: She was working to create a rationalist community in the

1121
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:16,439
Speaker 1: Canary Islands. She's kind of trying to do the same

1122
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:18,920
Speaker 1: thing Ziz did, But like in an island where it's

1123
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:21,640
Speaker 1: cheaper to live, is this something that can exist a

1124
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:25,200
Speaker 1: lot of places like share Yeah, I mean yeah, if

1125
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:26,680
Speaker 1: you've got cheap rent, you can get a bunch of

1126
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 1: like weirdos who work online to move into a house

1127
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:35,640
Speaker 1: with you. Right, Yeah, like that's that's always possible. She

1128
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:38,520
Speaker 1: found Zizz's blog and she starts commenting on it. She's

1129
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:41,800
Speaker 1: particularly drawn to Zizz's theories on manna and Zin's theory

1130
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:45,600
Speaker 1: in Gwynn's theory about hemispheric personalities. In one of her

1131
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:49,720
Speaker 1: most direct cult leader moments, Ziz reaches out directly to

1132
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:52,080
Speaker 1: this to Maya as she's like posting on her blog

1133
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:54,400
Speaker 1: and emails her saying, I see you like some of

1134
00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:57,080
Speaker 1: my blog posts. Truly a sinister opening.

1135
00:57:57,480 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's.

1136
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 1: My true companion. Gwynn and I are taking us somewhat

1137
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:06,920
Speaker 1: different than Maria. That's the organization, one of the rationals.

1138
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:10,600
Speaker 1: Organization approaches, they call each other, that's how they get

1139
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:15,400
Speaker 1: for their true companions opinions at this point, or taking

1140
00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:17,880
Speaker 1: a somewhat a different approach than the Miria approach to

1141
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:21,000
Speaker 1: saving the world without much specific test technical disagreements. We

1142
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:23,840
Speaker 1: are running on somewhat pointed to by the approach. As

1143
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:27,560
Speaker 1: long as you expect the world to burn, then change course. Right,

1144
00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:30,040
Speaker 1: So basically we still expect the world to burn, so

1145
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:32,120
Speaker 1: we can't keep doing what the other rationalists are doing.

1146
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 1: And she lays out to this, this girl she meets

1147
00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 1: through a blog post her plan to find abnormally intrinsically

1148
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:42,560
Speaker 1: good people and jail break them into Gervais's sociopaths. She

1149
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:45,439
Speaker 1: invites Maya to come out and it's I don't think

1150
00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:49,360
Speaker 1: this happened, but they do start separately journeying into unbucketing,

1151
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:52,840
Speaker 1: and Maya gets really into this uni hemispheric sleep thing,

1152
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:56,040
Speaker 1: and Zizz is kind of like coaching her through the process.

1153
00:58:56,160 --> 00:58:58,800
Speaker 1: She tells Maya that one of her hemispheres is female,

1154
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:01,560
Speaker 1: because Maya is a trans and Ziz tells her one

1155
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:04,280
Speaker 1: of your brain hemispheres, each of which is a separate person,

1156
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:08,000
Speaker 1: is female, but the other is male and quote mostly dead,

1157
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:12,200
Speaker 1: and your suicidal impulses are caused by both the pain

1158
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:14,120
Speaker 1: of being trans and also the fact that there's this

1159
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:19,200
Speaker 1: dead man living in your head that's like taking up

1160
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:22,200
Speaker 1: half of your brain's space, and so you really need

1161
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:25,320
Speaker 1: to debucket in order to have a chance of surviving, right.

1162
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:28,960
Speaker 2: Okay, So she needs to be jail broken to be free.

1163
00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:32,360
Speaker 1: To be free, and Maya will basically replace her sleep

1164
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 1: entirely with this uni hemispheric sleep crap, which exacerbates not sleeping,

1165
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:40,040
Speaker 1: exacerbates your depressive swings, and leads to deeper and deeper

1166
00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:44,040
Speaker 1: troughs of suicidal ideation. She is believed to have died

1167
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:47,600
Speaker 1: by suicide in February of twenty eighteen. She posts a

1168
00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:51,040
Speaker 1: what is essentially a suicide note that is very rationalist

1169
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:56,360
Speaker 1: in its verbiage literally titled decision theory and suicide, and

1170
00:59:56,480 --> 01:00:01,080
Speaker 1: this is the first death directly related to in Gwen's ideas.

1171
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:02,960
Speaker 1: But I think it's important to note that, like the

1172
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:07,160
Speaker 1: role mainstream rationalism plays in all of this, suicide is

1173
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:10,080
Speaker 1: a common topic at se FAR events, and people will

1174
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:13,760
Speaker 1: argue constantly about whether or not, like a low value individual,

1175
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:16,200
Speaker 1: it's better for them to kill themselves, right, is that

1176
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:19,520
Speaker 1: like of higher net value to the world. And it

1177
01:00:19,640 --> 01:00:22,000
Speaker 1: was also used as like a threat to stop women

1178
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:24,400
Speaker 1: who were abused by figures in the community from speaking up,

1179
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:27,000
Speaker 1: And this is from that Bloomberg article. One woman in

1180
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:29,160
Speaker 1: the community, who asked not to be identified for fear

1181
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:31,720
Speaker 1: of her prisals, says she was sexually abused by a

1182
01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:34,960
Speaker 1: prominent AI researcher. After she confronted him, she says she

1183
01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:38,160
Speaker 1: had job offers rescinded and conference speaking gigs canceled, and

1184
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:40,920
Speaker 1: was disinvited from AI events. She said others in the

1185
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:44,000
Speaker 1: community told her allegations of misconduct harmed the advancement of

1186
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:48,040
Speaker 1: AI safety, and one person suggested an agentic option would

1187
01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:51,400
Speaker 1: be to kill herself. So there is just within rationalism

1188
01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:54,440
Speaker 1: this discussion of like it can be agentic, as in,

1189
01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:57,120
Speaker 1: like you are taking high agency for your to kill

1190
01:00:57,160 --> 01:01:00,760
Speaker 1: yourself if your net if you're going to be a

1191
01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:03,280
Speaker 1: net harm to the cause of AI safety, which you

1192
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:07,120
Speaker 1: will be by reporting this AI researcher who molested you, right, and.

1193
01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:13,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you're taking them man, Yeah, shit.

1194
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:17,040
Speaker 1: These people are like all this whole community is playing

1195
01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:19,440
Speaker 1: with a lot of deeply dangerous stuff and a bunch

1196
01:01:19,480 --> 01:01:22,600
Speaker 1: of people are going to have their brains kill, either

1197
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:27,800
Speaker 1: kill themselves or have suffer severe trauma as a result this,

1198
01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:29,520
Speaker 1: all of this, Yeah.

1199
01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:32,520
Speaker 2: Escaping this is even putting yourself back together after living

1200
01:01:32,560 --> 01:01:35,440
Speaker 2: in this way seems like it would be such a task.

1201
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:37,920
Speaker 1: Again and likely any cult part of the difficulties like

1202
01:01:38,080 --> 01:01:41,160
Speaker 1: teaching yourself how to speak normally again, how to not

1203
01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:42,520
Speaker 1: talk about all this stuff?

1204
01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:46,800
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, not identify as a vegan sith right.

1205
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:49,160
Speaker 1: Right, because I gotta say, like there's and people who

1206
01:01:49,160 --> 01:01:51,320
Speaker 1: are really in the community will note like a dozen

1207
01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:54,560
Speaker 1: different other concepts and terms in addition to like vegan

1208
01:01:54,680 --> 01:01:57,680
Speaker 1: sith and Gervais's sociopaths and shit that I'm not talking

1209
01:01:57,760 --> 01:02:00,440
Speaker 1: about that are important to this is ideology. But like

1210
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:04,520
Speaker 1: you just can't like I had to basically learn like

1211
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:08,480
Speaker 1: the like a different language to do these episodes, and

1212
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:10,680
Speaker 1: I'm not fluent in it, right, Like you have to

1213
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:12,720
Speaker 1: triage like what shit.

1214
01:02:12,520 --> 01:02:15,040
Speaker 2: Do you need to know? You know? Yeah, it's so deep,

1215
01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:16,640
Speaker 2: it's right, so deep.

1216
01:02:18,040 --> 01:02:20,600
Speaker 1: Deep and silly. Let's do an ad break and then

1217
01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:27,320
Speaker 1: we'll be done and we're back. So I'm just going

1218
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:29,520
Speaker 1: to conclude this little story and then we'll end the

1219
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:31,240
Speaker 1: episode for the day, so.

1220
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:33,680
Speaker 2: We've this person.

1221
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:38,400
Speaker 1: Maya has likely killed themselves at the start of twenty eighteen,

1222
01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:41,880
Speaker 1: and Zis reacts to the suicide in her usual manner.

1223
01:02:42,120 --> 01:02:45,240
Speaker 1: She blogs about it. She took from what had happened,

1224
01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:48,480
Speaker 1: not that like debucketing might be dangerous and uni hemispheric

1225
01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:52,640
Speaker 1: sleep might be dangerous, but that explaining hemispheric consciousness to

1226
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:56,240
Speaker 1: people was an info hazard. She believed that people who

1227
01:02:56,280 --> 01:02:59,640
Speaker 1: were single, good like Maya were at elevated risk because

1228
01:02:59,720 --> 01:03:01,880
Speaker 1: learn that one of the whole persons inside them was

1229
01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:06,120
Speaker 1: evil or mostly dead could create a reconcilable conflict, leading

1230
01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:09,680
Speaker 1: to depression and suicide. And she she comes up with

1231
01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:12,600
Speaker 1: a name for this. She calls this passex doom. That's

1232
01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:15,520
Speaker 1: what she like names the info hazard. That kills her friend,

1233
01:03:15,880 --> 01:03:24,720
Speaker 1: who she is like fucking with their head. So that's nice, Yeah,

1234
01:03:26,440 --> 01:03:28,680
Speaker 1: as nice as anything else in this story. Is I

1235
01:03:28,720 --> 01:03:30,320
Speaker 1: think you might have been the doom here.

1236
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:35,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I it's you with the whole problem. But now,

1237
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:40,200
Speaker 2: but now it's an info hazard to explain. Yes, a

1238
01:03:41,240 --> 01:03:42,360
Speaker 2: person's like.

1239
01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:44,440
Speaker 1: To explain your theories.

1240
01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:47,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah to a person who can't handle it.

1241
01:03:47,960 --> 01:03:50,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, And she thinks she comes to the conclusion it's

1242
01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:53,120
Speaker 1: a particular danger to explain it, like to single good

1243
01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:55,480
Speaker 1: trans women, who are the primary group of people that

1244
01:03:55,600 --> 01:03:58,080
Speaker 1: she is going after in terms of trying to recruit folks.

1245
01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:01,440
Speaker 1: So she like admits her belief is that this this

1246
01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:04,360
Speaker 1: thought thing I've come up with is particularly dangerous to

1247
01:04:04,520 --> 01:04:08,240
Speaker 1: the community I'm recruiting from. But it's the only it's essential.

1248
01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:11,600
Speaker 1: This information is absolutely essential to saving the world. So

1249
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:13,080
Speaker 1: you just have to roll the dice.

1250
01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:17,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. It isolates herself within her own group that she's created, well.

1251
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:20,800
Speaker 1: Yes, and it also she is then consciously taking the choice.

1252
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:23,000
Speaker 1: I know this is likely to kill or destroy a

1253
01:04:23,040 --> 01:04:24,800
Speaker 1: lot of the people I reach out to, but I

1254
01:04:24,840 --> 01:04:27,040
Speaker 1: think it's so important that it's like worth taking that

1255
01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:28,160
Speaker 1: risk with their lives.

1256
01:04:31,400 --> 01:04:32,960
Speaker 2: Yep. Good stuff.

1257
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:35,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, anyway, how are you feeling?

1258
01:04:37,440 --> 01:04:42,720
Speaker 2: I am I I am okay, I'm I'm I. You

1259
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:46,880
Speaker 2: know what, I'm deeply sad for these people who are

1260
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:51,360
Speaker 2: so lost, and I'm also pretty interested because this is crazy.

1261
01:04:51,520 --> 01:04:52,840
Speaker 2: But I'm okay.

1262
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:59,800
Speaker 1: I'll be great, happy to happy, to happy to have

1263
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:04,360
Speaker 1: to see that. Well, everybody, this has been Behind the Bastards,

1264
01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:09,919
Speaker 1: a podcast about things that you maybe didn't think, maybe

1265
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:12,960
Speaker 1: didn't need to know about how the Internet breaks people's brains.

1266
01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:16,000
Speaker 1: But also a lot of people surprisingly close to this

1267
01:05:16,040 --> 01:05:18,120
Speaker 1: community are running the government now, so maybe you do

1268
01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:21,080
Speaker 1: need to know about it. Sorry about that info hazard.

1269
01:05:29,760 --> 01:05:33,680
Speaker 1: We're back. Oh my gosh, it's Behind the Bastards, a

1270
01:05:33,840 --> 01:05:37,720
Speaker 1: podcast where Robert Evans ruined his life by reading too

1271
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:44,640
Speaker 1: many blogs by Internet poisoned nerd rationalist people, and I

1272
01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:47,760
Speaker 1: deeply regret everything I've done. How are you doing, David,

1273
01:05:48,200 --> 01:05:50,600
Speaker 1: I'm good. I am concerned for you.

1274
01:05:50,720 --> 01:05:52,840
Speaker 2: This is a difficult place for you to spend a week.

1275
01:05:53,160 --> 01:05:55,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've had an This is an info hazard. They're

1276
01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:58,440
Speaker 1: not wrong to use that term, just not in the

1277
01:05:58,520 --> 01:05:59,280
Speaker 1: way they mean it.

1278
01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:01,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, this whole.

1279
01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:06,840
Speaker 1: Like i I've half I'm half committed to like selling

1280
01:06:06,920 --> 01:06:09,720
Speaker 1: my house, putting my goats into like a big trailer

1281
01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:12,880
Speaker 1: and traveling around the country finding people who are going

1282
01:06:12,960 --> 01:06:15,479
Speaker 1: on online doom loops and like handing them a goat

1283
01:06:15,520 --> 01:06:18,280
Speaker 1: and just like play with this goat for twenty minutes,

1284
01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:21,560
Speaker 1: Like touch it, touch an animal, look into its weird

1285
01:06:21,600 --> 01:06:22,160
Speaker 1: little eyes.

1286
01:06:22,560 --> 01:06:24,920
Speaker 2: Get off of your phone. That's you need to go,

1287
01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:26,080
Speaker 2: go do goat yoga.

1288
01:06:26,640 --> 01:06:33,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, something has to be done. Oh yeah, so wild

1289
01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:38,080
Speaker 1: yeah wid yeah again. Folks. If you want to immunize

1290
01:06:38,600 --> 01:06:41,520
Speaker 1: your stuff to this, a great way to do it

1291
01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:43,320
Speaker 1: is to just like have friends who don't live in

1292
01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:49,160
Speaker 1: a boat with you, right, small.

1293
01:06:48,960 --> 01:06:50,360
Speaker 3: Boat, yeah.

1294
01:06:53,520 --> 01:06:56,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, let alone barely a boat and talk to like, you.

1295
01:06:56,920 --> 01:06:57,600
Speaker 2: Know, my neighbor's.

1296
01:06:57,960 --> 01:07:01,120
Speaker 1: My neighbor's like a Mexican dude who loves gardening and

1297
01:07:01,360 --> 01:07:03,320
Speaker 1: has had a completely different life than me and knows

1298
01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:05,120
Speaker 1: nothing of the internet. And I talk with them a

1299
01:07:05,160 --> 01:07:07,360
Speaker 1: couple of times a week, and it's always one of

1300
01:07:07,400 --> 01:07:10,040
Speaker 1: the best things for me, because I spend so much

1301
01:07:10,080 --> 01:07:12,360
Speaker 1: of the rest of my time with people like Garrison,

1302
01:07:12,560 --> 01:07:17,240
Speaker 1: who are all like the same things I've poisoned my

1303
01:07:17,320 --> 01:07:20,960
Speaker 1: brain with, Like please go find people who don't know

1304
01:07:21,120 --> 01:07:23,400
Speaker 1: all of the weird Internet things you do and spend

1305
01:07:23,520 --> 01:07:24,320
Speaker 1: more time with.

1306
01:07:24,440 --> 01:07:28,400
Speaker 3: Them, aggressive on the people like Garrison.

1307
01:07:28,720 --> 01:07:31,520
Speaker 1: Look, I love Garrison, but they also have started spending

1308
01:07:31,560 --> 01:07:33,400
Speaker 1: a lot of their time with people who aren't in

1309
01:07:33,480 --> 01:07:36,320
Speaker 1: the same weird internet doom circles that we are. And

1310
01:07:36,440 --> 01:07:40,040
Speaker 1: it's been good for them. It's good for everyone. Truly,

1311
01:07:40,880 --> 01:07:42,800
Speaker 1: save yourself, Save yourself.

1312
01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:45,440
Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be like this.

1313
01:07:50,680 --> 01:07:54,600
Speaker 1: So when we left off, Ziz had kind of psychologically

1314
01:07:54,720 --> 01:07:58,800
Speaker 1: jail broken her friend into suicide and then created an

1315
01:07:58,840 --> 01:08:03,800
Speaker 1: info hazard named after her friend. Great stuff, healthy community.

1316
01:08:04,040 --> 01:08:06,880
Speaker 1: Now a few things happen in quick succession after this point.

1317
01:08:07,360 --> 01:08:11,400
Speaker 1: The rationalists start to blame passic suicide on Ziz, And

1318
01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:13,440
Speaker 1: this is really when a lot of folks in rationalist

1319
01:08:13,480 --> 01:08:17,080
Speaker 1: circles start breaking off and calling like saying like, hey,

1320
01:08:17,160 --> 01:08:19,000
Speaker 1: this is what Ziz and Winter doing. They've made like

1321
01:08:19,080 --> 01:08:21,760
Speaker 1: a cult, right, and again I don't think they're really

1322
01:08:21,880 --> 01:08:25,599
Speaker 1: off base here, but also they tend to ignore all

1323
01:08:25,640 --> 01:08:27,799
Speaker 1: of the suicides in the rationalists community.

1324
01:08:28,040 --> 01:08:29,759
Speaker 2: Right they are in a cult.

1325
01:08:30,479 --> 01:08:35,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know it's more because cult is I think,

1326
01:08:35,240 --> 01:08:37,599
Speaker 1: like you get like they're in a there's a cultic

1327
01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:41,599
Speaker 1: milieu that rationalism forms, which is like the substrate, right,

1328
01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:43,800
Speaker 1: you know, if a cult is like a plant growing

1329
01:08:43,880 --> 01:08:47,040
Speaker 1: up from it, Like they're like, rationalism is this soil

1330
01:08:47,160 --> 01:08:50,439
Speaker 1: that is extremely optimized for growing cults. I think that

1331
01:08:50,560 --> 01:08:55,600
Speaker 1: might be closer, you know, although it's also one of

1332
01:08:55,600 --> 01:08:57,160
Speaker 1: those things where if you're just trying to explain the storm,

1333
01:08:57,200 --> 01:08:58,360
Speaker 1: you can just say it's a cult. You can say

1334
01:08:58,360 --> 01:09:01,160
Speaker 1: it's this weird Bay Area cult about science and AAI

1335
01:09:01,280 --> 01:09:02,760
Speaker 1: and shit like. That's probably close enough.

1336
01:09:03,080 --> 01:09:03,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1337
01:09:05,360 --> 01:09:07,360
Speaker 1: A few things happen in quick succession after this point.

1338
01:09:07,479 --> 01:09:09,719
Speaker 1: One is that a story broke later in twenty eighteen,

1339
01:09:09,840 --> 01:09:14,000
Speaker 1: confirming Zizz's suspicion that the rational rationalist community was rife

1340
01:09:14,040 --> 01:09:17,880
Speaker 1: with abuse. Two people accused an influential rationalist who worked

1341
01:09:17,880 --> 01:09:20,960
Speaker 1: at Seafar, a guy named Brent Dill, of abuse while

1342
01:09:21,000 --> 01:09:23,640
Speaker 1: they were dating him. Both were nineteen and he was

1343
01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:26,840
Speaker 1: close to forty. The allegations here remind me a little

1344
01:09:26,920 --> 01:09:28,800
Speaker 1: of the ones against Neil Gaiman. You've got a very

1345
01:09:28,840 --> 01:09:31,719
Speaker 1: powerful man accused of coercing much younger women into extreme

1346
01:09:31,800 --> 01:09:36,519
Speaker 1: BDSM situations, implying them with drugs. Obviously, none of this

1347
01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:38,240
Speaker 1: is I don't think any of this has been litigated,

1348
01:09:38,320 --> 01:09:41,480
Speaker 1: so I will continue to refer to them as allegations.

1349
01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:44,760
Speaker 1: I don't know exactly what happened here, but this breaks right,

1350
01:09:44,840 --> 01:09:47,360
Speaker 1: and it's a big deal within the community. Rumors spread

1351
01:09:47,439 --> 01:09:50,720
Speaker 1: that SEFAR had kind of tried to hush the whole

1352
01:09:50,800 --> 01:09:55,120
Speaker 1: mess down in order to protect this guy. They conducted

1353
01:09:55,120 --> 01:09:58,040
Speaker 1: an internal investigation. We all know, like when the cops

1354
01:09:58,080 --> 01:10:01,280
Speaker 1: do an internal investigation, right, that's always reliable.

1355
01:10:01,960 --> 01:10:03,240
Speaker 2: Trust us to figure it out.

1356
01:10:03,720 --> 01:10:10,840
Speaker 1: We'll police ourselves, that's rational. This internal investigation exonerated Dil

1357
01:10:10,920 --> 01:10:13,599
Speaker 1: and included the line he is aligned with Seafar's goals

1358
01:10:13,640 --> 01:10:15,800
Speaker 1: and strategy and should be seen as an ally who

1359
01:10:15,880 --> 01:10:18,920
Speaker 1: embodies a rare kind of agency and a sense of

1360
01:10:19,000 --> 01:10:24,400
Speaker 1: heroic responsibility. There's those words again, agency, heroic responsibility. Dating

1361
01:10:24,439 --> 01:10:26,559
Speaker 1: a nineteen year old when you're forty and giving your

1362
01:10:26,640 --> 01:10:35,040
Speaker 1: drugs good stuff, people respond with outrage. Se Far eventually

1363
01:10:35,560 --> 01:10:38,439
Speaker 1: eventually banned Dil from future events. They kind of cave,

1364
01:10:39,320 --> 01:10:42,040
Speaker 1: and Ziz would describe Dil later as a true negative.

1365
01:10:42,160 --> 01:10:44,360
Speaker 1: That's someone who both have haves of their brain. Are

1366
01:10:44,439 --> 01:10:47,400
Speaker 1: even double bad? Yeah, double bad. Now, at this point,

1367
01:10:47,479 --> 01:10:50,320
Speaker 1: she still thought Yudkowski and some other c FAR leaders

1368
01:10:50,439 --> 01:10:53,360
Speaker 1: might be double good, but she's really not sure about it,

1369
01:10:53,479 --> 01:10:56,120
Speaker 1: and she's especially not sure because none of them like

1370
01:10:56,240 --> 01:10:57,440
Speaker 1: embrace this terminology.

1371
01:10:57,760 --> 01:10:59,760
Speaker 2: I was going to say at this point, his Yudkowski

1372
01:11:00,200 --> 01:11:03,519
Speaker 2: is he like, is she still? Are they on good terms?

1373
01:11:03,640 --> 01:11:04,600
Speaker 2: Is he still acknowledging?

1374
01:11:04,760 --> 01:11:07,160
Speaker 1: No? Okay, I don't think she's ever on close terms

1375
01:11:07,240 --> 01:11:08,040
Speaker 1: with Yidkowski.

1376
01:11:08,160 --> 01:11:08,400
Speaker 2: She is.

1377
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:11,400
Speaker 1: She is speaking and communicating directly with Anna Salomon, who

1378
01:11:11,479 --> 01:11:14,080
Speaker 1: is like one of the Yadkowski's like top people quite

1379
01:11:14,080 --> 01:11:17,640
Speaker 1: a lot. I don't think she's super close to Yedkowski, Like,

1380
01:11:17,680 --> 01:11:20,040
Speaker 1: I'm sure they're at the same events and stuff several times,

1381
01:11:20,080 --> 01:11:21,880
Speaker 1: and she sees she definitely like sees him speak, She

1382
01:11:21,920 --> 01:11:24,880
Speaker 1: definitely talks with him, but like, I don't think that

1383
01:11:25,120 --> 01:11:29,080
Speaker 1: they would ever have been close, right, Okay. She does

1384
01:11:29,200 --> 01:11:32,240
Speaker 1: try to force a conversation with Anna Salomon outside of

1385
01:11:32,320 --> 01:11:35,519
Speaker 1: c FR HQ about this and other discovery she and

1386
01:11:35,760 --> 01:11:39,400
Speaker 1: Gwynn had made on their boats, and Ziz like writes

1387
01:11:39,439 --> 01:11:40,920
Speaker 1: in the blog post about it that like she felt

1388
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:42,960
Speaker 1: was going pretty good and Anna was listening to her.

1389
01:11:43,360 --> 01:11:45,719
Speaker 1: There are context clues that I don't think Ziz picks

1390
01:11:45,800 --> 01:11:48,880
Speaker 1: up on that, like, oh no, Anna immediately felt uncomfortable

1391
01:11:48,920 --> 01:11:50,880
Speaker 1: and like you were assaulting her, like coming up to

1392
01:11:50,920 --> 01:11:52,840
Speaker 1: her and just like kind of barraging her with all

1393
01:11:52,920 --> 01:11:55,360
Speaker 1: of this nonsense, and she did not want to have

1394
01:11:55,479 --> 01:11:58,360
Speaker 1: this conversation. And she kind of pretended that to be

1395
01:11:58,760 --> 01:12:01,640
Speaker 1: agree with you in order in this because she's not

1396
01:12:01,760 --> 01:12:04,960
Speaker 1: sure if you're dangerous, which, to be fair, you are.

1397
01:12:05,439 --> 01:12:06,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1398
01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:11,959
Speaker 1: Soon later, at a Sea Far board meeting, Anna recommended

1399
01:12:12,000 --> 01:12:15,599
Speaker 1: that Ziz be disinvited from joint Mary c Far events.

1400
01:12:15,640 --> 01:12:18,960
Speaker 1: And both of these are separate organizations, but basically like

1401
01:12:19,120 --> 01:12:21,559
Speaker 1: the membership overlaps or like a circle.

1402
01:12:21,720 --> 01:12:21,840
Speaker 2: Right.

1403
01:12:22,280 --> 01:12:24,320
Speaker 1: Her reasoning for not wanting Zizz at events is that

1404
01:12:24,439 --> 01:12:27,200
Speaker 1: Ziz war quote black clothes, took super villains as role

1405
01:12:27,240 --> 01:12:29,360
Speaker 1: models and came up with dangerous plans.

1406
01:12:29,960 --> 01:12:34,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's correct. I forgot that she was also

1407
01:12:34,880 --> 01:12:35,559
Speaker 2: wearing black roles.

1408
01:12:35,600 --> 01:12:43,479
Speaker 1: She's also started dressing like a wizard. Yes, speaking of

1409
01:12:43,600 --> 01:12:47,759
Speaker 1: dangerous plans, the Rationalist Fleet or rat fleet, was falling apart.

1410
01:12:47,880 --> 01:12:50,759
Speaker 1: By this point. Coast Guard and San Mateo Harbor District

1411
01:12:50,800 --> 01:12:53,640
Speaker 1: authorities had issued numerous warnings over the danger of this

1412
01:12:53,800 --> 01:12:57,400
Speaker 1: tugboat leaking poison into the bay. On several occasions, the

1413
01:12:57,520 --> 01:13:00,679
Speaker 1: Caleb nearly hit other ships while drifting like the anchor

1414
01:13:00,760 --> 01:13:02,759
Speaker 1: gets fucked up. I don't know that they they probably

1415
01:13:02,760 --> 01:13:05,320
Speaker 1: don't have to use it because like they're the navy guy,

1416
01:13:05,400 --> 01:13:09,559
Speaker 1: he is, he still gone, he is bounced. He had

1417
01:13:09,560 --> 01:13:11,639
Speaker 1: at least the judgment to cut his losses.

1418
01:13:11,800 --> 01:13:13,799
Speaker 2: So they don't even know how to work boats.

1419
01:13:14,439 --> 01:13:17,479
Speaker 1: They do gwin Is. I think Gwin's actually reasonably competent

1420
01:13:17,560 --> 01:13:21,880
Speaker 1: with the stoat, right, and she and Zis gets trained up.

1421
01:13:21,880 --> 01:13:23,920
Speaker 1: And these are both smart enough people that I suspect

1422
01:13:23,920 --> 01:13:26,120
Speaker 1: they're competent with a sailboat, but like a twenty four

1423
01:13:26,120 --> 01:13:30,320
Speaker 1: foot sailboat and a ninety four foot tug boat very different.

1424
01:13:30,640 --> 01:13:33,599
Speaker 1: That's like, I'm good with him driving my prius. Give

1425
01:13:33,680 --> 01:13:36,559
Speaker 1: me that fucking eighteen wheeler with two with two fucking

1426
01:13:36,680 --> 01:13:39,639
Speaker 1: storage containers on the back, shipping containers on the back.

1427
01:13:39,920 --> 01:13:42,559
Speaker 1: I could probably back that thing into a parking space,

1428
01:13:42,680 --> 01:13:49,439
Speaker 1: no problem. Like they're just different, you know, damn authorities, right.

1429
01:13:49,479 --> 01:13:52,920
Speaker 1: And what's very funny these accounts of like boat cops

1430
01:13:53,240 --> 01:13:56,400
Speaker 1: getting on the Caleb and talking to Zizians. They're like,

1431
01:13:56,920 --> 01:13:59,600
Speaker 1: these people must be sovereign citizens, which is like a

1432
01:13:59,640 --> 01:14:01,920
Speaker 1: totally different kind of thing. And to me, I'm like,

1433
01:14:02,360 --> 01:14:04,320
Speaker 1: you don't sound at all like but to them, it's

1434
01:14:04,439 --> 01:14:07,040
Speaker 1: like this mix because it's this mix of anarchist theory, right,

1435
01:14:07,080 --> 01:14:09,080
Speaker 1: because these people are anarchists. So they're telling these cops

1436
01:14:09,120 --> 01:14:11,920
Speaker 1: why they don't think the cops have any authority. But

1437
01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:14,960
Speaker 1: they're also like insulting them with these like logical arguments

1438
01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:17,280
Speaker 1: based on obscure rationalist doctrines.

1439
01:14:17,439 --> 01:14:21,680
Speaker 2: And these peoples are heavy jargon, right, heavy.

1440
01:14:22,760 --> 01:14:24,920
Speaker 1: These cops are just like, okay, so we got some sovereign,

1441
01:14:25,240 --> 01:14:31,599
Speaker 1: some sob sets here, all right, it's four now. Yeah,

1442
01:14:33,560 --> 01:14:35,479
Speaker 1: and again this is like the Bay Area. I think

1443
01:14:35,520 --> 01:14:37,479
Speaker 1: cops in the Barrier are a little especially since they're

1444
01:14:37,479 --> 01:14:39,680
Speaker 1: all white, more used to dealing with like people who

1445
01:14:39,720 --> 01:14:43,479
Speaker 1: are clearly like eccentric, right than maybe like if this

1446
01:14:43,560 --> 01:14:45,920
Speaker 1: had happened in another city. So nothing, there's not really

1447
01:14:46,000 --> 01:14:48,920
Speaker 1: a conflict yet. The cops are just being like, hey, guys,

1448
01:14:48,960 --> 01:14:52,080
Speaker 1: you're this But to be fair, the boat is leaking

1449
01:14:52,200 --> 01:14:54,960
Speaker 1: diesel into the bay. See it as a problem. Right.

1450
01:14:55,400 --> 01:15:01,920
Speaker 1: That's in twenty nineteen and other scandal hits the rationalist community.

1451
01:15:02,240 --> 01:15:05,080
Speaker 1: The story broke that a former employee had blackmailed the

1452
01:15:05,400 --> 01:15:08,040
Speaker 1: company over a dispute and used donor funds to pay.

1453
01:15:08,439 --> 01:15:11,240
Speaker 1: This got stacked on top of the scandal that Dill

1454
01:15:11,360 --> 01:15:13,760
Speaker 1: had just created, and, as is in, many of her

1455
01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:16,240
Speaker 1: comrades saw it, the issue was not whether this employee

1456
01:15:16,280 --> 01:15:19,320
Speaker 1: had been mistreated, but that Miri hadn't made the proper,

1457
01:15:19,439 --> 01:15:23,760
Speaker 1: timeless decisions to ensure they couldn't be blackmailed, per an article.

1458
01:15:23,560 --> 01:15:24,800
Speaker 2: For the Rolling Stone Quote.

1459
01:15:25,040 --> 01:15:27,920
Speaker 1: In their view, this not only represented bad decision theory,

1460
01:15:28,160 --> 01:15:31,759
Speaker 1: but called the organization's entire existence into question. In other words,

1461
01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:34,080
Speaker 1: it's not whatever happened with this employee, it's that you

1462
01:15:34,160 --> 01:15:36,240
Speaker 1: didn't make the timeless decisions to make it so that

1463
01:15:36,360 --> 01:15:38,960
Speaker 1: anyone would be scared to try to blackmail you because

1464
01:15:38,960 --> 01:15:40,760
Speaker 1: they'd know that your response was so it would be

1465
01:15:40,840 --> 01:15:43,280
Speaker 1: so intense. That proves you don't have what it takes

1466
01:15:43,320 --> 01:15:45,760
Speaker 1: to really save the world, because you're not ruthless enough

1467
01:15:45,840 --> 01:15:47,320
Speaker 1: to just jump to killing people like us.

1468
01:15:47,640 --> 01:15:50,200
Speaker 2: You're not a psychopath. You're not a psychopath, or they

1469
01:15:50,280 --> 01:15:53,519
Speaker 2: need psychopaths, which is good to save the world. We

1470
01:15:53,800 --> 01:15:57,600
Speaker 2: love psychopaths. We're all we aspired to it.

1471
01:15:57,800 --> 01:16:00,519
Speaker 1: And one of the big problems within the rationalists community

1472
01:16:00,680 --> 01:16:03,640
Speaker 1: is people talk about different mental health conditions as if

1473
01:16:03,680 --> 01:16:07,479
Speaker 1: they're like tools in a toolbox, Like you could go

1474
01:16:07,680 --> 01:16:10,920
Speaker 1: into a psychopathic mode, and that's really good for accomplishing

1475
01:16:11,040 --> 01:16:13,519
Speaker 1: these things. So you could you can go adh you

1476
01:16:13,560 --> 01:16:16,160
Speaker 1: can make yourself autistic in this they talk this way, right,

1477
01:16:16,200 --> 01:16:18,559
Speaker 1: I'm not saying this is this is not how anything works.

1478
01:16:18,800 --> 01:16:21,360
Speaker 1: I'm not carrying autism and psychopathy. I'm just saying this

1479
01:16:21,479 --> 01:16:25,200
Speaker 1: is how they talk right the world, right, And I

1480
01:16:25,280 --> 01:16:27,960
Speaker 1: was like, no, that's that's not None of this is

1481
01:16:28,160 --> 01:16:33,400
Speaker 1: accurate to like the ways are like, you can't just

1482
01:16:33,479 --> 01:16:33,680
Speaker 1: be like.

1483
01:16:33,680 --> 01:16:35,800
Speaker 2: I'm gonna turn off by autism today, I got some ships.

1484
01:16:36,240 --> 01:16:38,080
Speaker 1: No, that's not how we're And some of this is

1485
01:16:38,160 --> 01:16:42,200
Speaker 1: downstream from how I think online discourse has damaged the

1486
01:16:42,280 --> 01:16:45,800
Speaker 1: discussion of mental health because people sometimes do talk about

1487
01:16:45,840 --> 01:16:49,400
Speaker 1: it like pokemon, you know, very much like I think

1488
01:16:49,439 --> 01:16:52,640
Speaker 1: there's some issues there that that do anyway, and and

1489
01:16:52,760 --> 01:16:55,920
Speaker 1: a lot of this is yeah, it's just this soup

1490
01:16:56,120 --> 01:17:00,559
Speaker 1: is not exclusive to Ziz. So Ziz is band now

1491
01:17:00,640 --> 01:17:02,880
Speaker 1: from mari ce Far Events, and her whole crew is

1492
01:17:02,960 --> 01:17:07,000
Speaker 1: increasingly radicalized against the organizations they have. Also, you know,

1493
01:17:07,320 --> 01:17:09,320
Speaker 1: it's both where like Sefar has good reason to not

1494
01:17:09,400 --> 01:17:11,800
Speaker 1: want Zizz around, but also all of Zizz. Most of

1495
01:17:11,920 --> 01:17:20,320
Speaker 1: Zizz's complaints about rationalists like Sefar and Marie are very valid, right, Like, yeah, yeah,

1496
01:17:20,880 --> 01:17:23,240
Speaker 1: you're both right about each other. It's like how Elon

1497
01:17:23,320 --> 01:17:25,720
Speaker 1: Musk and Peter Teal would shit talk each other. It's like,

1498
01:17:25,880 --> 01:17:28,280
Speaker 1: fact you both do have each other's number.

1499
01:17:28,439 --> 01:17:31,800
Speaker 2: Yes, everybody's got a point. Everybody's got a point.

1500
01:17:32,160 --> 01:17:34,280
Speaker 1: I just kind of wish you would all go away.

1501
01:17:37,720 --> 01:17:40,880
Speaker 1: In November of twenty nineteen, Seafar held their annual alumni

1502
01:17:40,960 --> 01:17:43,400
Speaker 1: reunion out in a chunk of the California Redwoods, down

1503
01:17:43,439 --> 01:17:46,800
Speaker 1: the stream from the street from the Bohemian Grove. The

1504
01:17:47,200 --> 01:17:49,760
Speaker 1: road that passes is literally the Bohemian Highway. Right, this

1505
01:17:49,920 --> 01:17:52,280
Speaker 1: is like for an idea of how much money there

1506
01:17:52,360 --> 01:17:55,360
Speaker 1: is in mainstream rationalism. Right, they are having their big

1507
01:17:55,439 --> 01:17:59,200
Speaker 1: party next to Bohemian Grove. Ziz had sent an open

1508
01:17:59,280 --> 01:18:01,040
Speaker 1: letter and like a letter he had Kowski a few

1509
01:18:01,120 --> 01:18:04,240
Speaker 1: days earlier, or urging members of both organizations to quit

1510
01:18:04,439 --> 01:18:07,200
Speaker 1: in the interest of saving the world, basically saying these

1511
01:18:07,240 --> 01:18:11,280
Speaker 1: groups are so compromised they can no longer like add

1512
01:18:11,479 --> 01:18:13,640
Speaker 1: effectively to the things we're trying to do to our

1513
01:18:13,680 --> 01:18:16,080
Speaker 1: important work, So you should all leave and kind of

1514
01:18:16,120 --> 01:18:18,559
Speaker 1: the subtext is and do what me and Gwynn are doing,

1515
01:18:18,760 --> 01:18:23,400
Speaker 1: you know, start ale. So on the day of this event,

1516
01:18:23,960 --> 01:18:27,280
Speaker 1: Ziz Gwinn and two others in their circle drive up

1517
01:18:27,479 --> 01:18:31,240
Speaker 1: to this like this location out in the woods with

1518
01:18:31,320 --> 01:18:33,880
Speaker 1: a box truck, a shuttle bus, and a Prius and

1519
01:18:33,960 --> 01:18:36,760
Speaker 1: they block the entrances and exits of the venue with

1520
01:18:36,880 --> 01:18:40,200
Speaker 1: their vehicles and they jump out wearing black robes, guy

1521
01:18:40,320 --> 01:18:43,720
Speaker 1: Fawkes masks and black gloves. Now, this is not a

1522
01:18:43,800 --> 01:18:47,120
Speaker 1: violent protest I have. There's no evidence that they intended violence.

1523
01:18:47,479 --> 01:18:50,280
Speaker 1: They had walkie talkies, one person had a can of mace,

1524
01:18:50,439 --> 01:18:53,400
Speaker 1: but like you know, people carry mace, that's not suspicious.

1525
01:18:53,760 --> 01:18:55,880
Speaker 1: And all they're trying to do is distribute flyers lying

1526
01:18:55,880 --> 01:18:57,920
Speaker 1: out their case against Sefar and Miri. But they have

1527
01:18:58,160 --> 01:19:02,599
Speaker 1: blocked the entrances and exits and they talk like sith wizards, right,

1528
01:19:02,720 --> 01:19:05,759
Speaker 1: so everything they say sounds cryptic and kind of threatening,

1529
01:19:06,680 --> 01:19:12,320
Speaker 1: and they're wearring Guy Fowk's masks. The police get called immediately,

1530
01:19:12,439 --> 01:19:14,840
Speaker 1: and as best as I can tell, it does Maybe

1531
01:19:14,880 --> 01:19:17,240
Speaker 1: I'm wrong. It seems like the CEA farmer people like

1532
01:19:17,320 --> 01:19:20,280
Speaker 1: knew because there's like send out an email saying hey,

1533
01:19:20,360 --> 01:19:22,400
Speaker 1: maybe don't come, or like if you do, just like

1534
01:19:22,479 --> 01:19:24,720
Speaker 1: being note that these weird people are here. But the

1535
01:19:24,880 --> 01:19:28,080
Speaker 1: venue owner, like the people running the venue, call the cops,

1536
01:19:28,200 --> 01:19:30,880
Speaker 1: is what it seems like happens. There are different allegations here.

1537
01:19:30,920 --> 01:19:36,280
Speaker 1: I don't precisely know, but whatever, whatever the case, two

1538
01:19:36,360 --> 01:19:38,680
Speaker 1: false pieces of information are given to the cops when

1539
01:19:38,720 --> 01:19:41,200
Speaker 1: they get called. They are told the cops are told

1540
01:19:41,360 --> 01:19:45,160
Speaker 1: one person has a gun and another person has an axe. Right, so,

1541
01:19:45,760 --> 01:19:47,679
Speaker 1: and I think it's people who worked at the venue

1542
01:19:47,840 --> 01:19:50,160
Speaker 1: or make these allegations. It was definitely an employee at

1543
01:19:50,200 --> 01:19:52,160
Speaker 1: the venue who are alleged that he saw an axe,

1544
01:19:53,360 --> 01:19:55,640
Speaker 1: a county sheriff who responded, or so it was a

1545
01:19:55,880 --> 01:19:58,360
Speaker 1: person at the venue who picked up an axe and

1546
01:19:58,520 --> 01:20:00,720
Speaker 1: someone saw them and reported that to the police too,

1547
01:20:00,880 --> 01:20:04,240
Speaker 1: right because he was scared of these people. A county

1548
01:20:04,320 --> 01:20:08,840
Speaker 1: sheriff sheriff's deputy responds and immediately calls for major backup

1549
01:20:08,840 --> 01:20:11,479
Speaker 1: because he's told someone has a gun. And you know,

1550
01:20:11,720 --> 01:20:13,639
Speaker 1: as a cop with just kind of like a pop

1551
01:20:13,680 --> 01:20:15,240
Speaker 1: culture knowledge, you hear like a bunch of people in

1552
01:20:15,360 --> 01:20:20,160
Speaker 1: robes and masks with a gun outside of this big

1553
01:20:20,240 --> 01:20:23,760
Speaker 1: event where like there's children doing a ropes course next door. Like,

1554
01:20:23,920 --> 01:20:26,080
Speaker 1: his thought is there's a mass shooting brewing, right, some

1555
01:20:26,120 --> 01:20:29,040
Speaker 1: people are going to do something fucked up, right, so

1556
01:20:29,720 --> 01:20:33,519
Speaker 1: he calls for a massive like swat response basically, you know,

1557
01:20:33,640 --> 01:20:36,320
Speaker 1: compared to the actual danger these people present, which is

1558
01:20:36,439 --> 01:20:39,439
Speaker 1: right now nil. The author that wired piece spoke to

1559
01:20:39,479 --> 01:20:42,479
Speaker 1: the sheriff's deputy who responded. Initially a guy named Parks.

1560
01:20:42,640 --> 01:20:45,639
Speaker 1: And this is that account quote in Parks's account which

1561
01:20:45,640 --> 01:20:47,439
Speaker 1: he relayed to me. In the fall of twenty twenty three,

1562
01:20:47,479 --> 01:20:50,320
Speaker 1: at a local Starbucks, the protesters were speaking in unison,

1563
01:20:50,760 --> 01:20:53,360
Speaker 1: just stuff I didn't really understand, but it was somewhat rehearsed.

1564
01:20:53,400 --> 01:20:53,760
Speaker 2: He said.

1565
01:20:54,040 --> 01:20:56,960
Speaker 1: The group had printed flyers outlining their complaints against Sefar

1566
01:20:57,040 --> 01:20:59,679
Speaker 1: and Miri. They alleged that Mary had paid out blackmail

1567
01:20:59,760 --> 01:21:03,240
Speaker 1: using donor funds to quash sexual misconduct allegations, and that

1568
01:21:03,360 --> 01:21:08,200
Speaker 1: sefar's leader discriminates against trans women. Other allegations were more esoteric.

1569
01:21:08,400 --> 01:21:12,560
Speaker 1: Sephar does not appreciably develop novel rationality mental tech. The

1570
01:21:12,640 --> 01:21:16,200
Speaker 1: path to avoiding extinction, they wrote, involved escaping containment by

1571
01:21:16,280 --> 01:21:20,080
Speaker 1: society through mental autonomy and inter hemispheric game theory.

1572
01:21:20,880 --> 01:21:23,160
Speaker 4: So some.

1573
01:21:26,160 --> 01:21:31,240
Speaker 1: Some random sheriff's deputy is not going to understand what's.

1574
01:21:31,080 --> 01:21:33,599
Speaker 2: Going on here. What the fuck are you talking about?

1575
01:21:33,920 --> 01:21:36,519
Speaker 1: He and his men default to the thing that cops

1576
01:21:36,640 --> 01:21:39,240
Speaker 1: do when they get confused, which is they get violent.

1577
01:21:39,439 --> 01:21:43,040
Speaker 1: Right quote. He and Rix ordered the protesters to get

1578
01:21:43,080 --> 01:21:44,920
Speaker 1: on the ground. As they did, each one called out,

1579
01:21:44,960 --> 01:21:47,360
Speaker 1: demanding a same gender pack down, like one might request

1580
01:21:47,400 --> 01:21:50,240
Speaker 1: at an airport. All three were trans women, but Park

1581
01:21:50,320 --> 01:21:52,360
Speaker 1: says he couldn't discern their genders because of the robes

1582
01:21:52,400 --> 01:21:54,680
Speaker 1: and masks. Regardless that we're not going to get that

1583
01:21:54,800 --> 01:21:57,160
Speaker 1: luxury at that time. He told me, it's like, well,

1584
01:21:57,200 --> 01:21:58,439
Speaker 1: we don't know if you're a boy or a girl,

1585
01:21:58,479 --> 01:22:01,640
Speaker 1: and we got to handcuff you. Arks deputy subdued the

1586
01:22:01,680 --> 01:22:04,040
Speaker 1: three and prone positions what Parks calls a high risk

1587
01:22:04,160 --> 01:22:07,679
Speaker 1: style takedown, requiring more force than a normal handcuffing style.

1588
01:22:09,280 --> 01:22:12,920
Speaker 1: So there's a several articles I've read will to refer

1589
01:22:12,960 --> 01:22:15,719
Speaker 1: to a discrepancy between how the Zizians and the cops

1590
01:22:15,800 --> 01:22:18,320
Speaker 1: describe these events. I've read both accounts. I really don't

1591
01:22:18,320 --> 01:22:20,919
Speaker 1: see a gap. What I see is the cops describing

1592
01:22:20,960 --> 01:22:23,479
Speaker 1: their violent into humanizing behavior as like this is the

1593
01:22:23,560 --> 01:22:26,479
Speaker 1: normal way to respond and the Zizians describing it as

1594
01:22:26,479 --> 01:22:29,240
Speaker 1: to humanizing and traumatizing. The only question here is, like

1595
01:22:29,280 --> 01:22:31,760
Speaker 1: the moral quality you give to the cops tackling a

1596
01:22:31,800 --> 01:22:34,439
Speaker 1: bunch of people basically who don't have weapons because they

1597
01:22:34,479 --> 01:22:36,760
Speaker 1: got a phone call, right, which, like, if you're a cop,

1598
01:22:36,800 --> 01:22:38,280
Speaker 1: you're like, well, this is the only way to act.

1599
01:22:38,360 --> 01:22:41,040
Speaker 1: And if you're I think most people like you're like, well,

1600
01:22:41,720 --> 01:22:44,280
Speaker 1: probably could have just talked this situation down. I don't

1601
01:22:44,320 --> 01:22:48,080
Speaker 1: see where in arrest was like yeah. Gwinn later writes

1602
01:22:48,160 --> 01:22:50,720
Speaker 1: this about the experience when we arrived, as staff member

1603
01:22:50,800 --> 01:22:52,519
Speaker 1: called the police and falsely told them we had a

1604
01:22:52,560 --> 01:22:54,600
Speaker 1: gun and that we were going into buildings and that

1605
01:22:54,720 --> 01:22:56,280
Speaker 1: that we were too afraid to get off the phone.

1606
01:22:56,320 --> 01:22:57,920
Speaker 1: They were too afraid to get off the phone. Later

1607
01:22:58,000 --> 01:23:00,599
Speaker 1: report said there was an active shooter with a None

1608
01:23:00,640 --> 01:23:02,760
Speaker 1: of us had a duffel bag. Police arrived with their

1609
01:23:02,760 --> 01:23:05,040
Speaker 1: guns out, and we were immediately arrested within about ten

1610
01:23:05,120 --> 01:23:07,920
Speaker 1: minutes of us arriving, after which we were sexually assaulted.

1611
01:23:07,960 --> 01:23:09,479
Speaker 1: In my case, I was groped and I had my

1612
01:23:09,560 --> 01:23:11,479
Speaker 1: pants pulled down and then sat on by an officer

1613
01:23:11,520 --> 01:23:16,040
Speaker 1: in a mounting position. They are mocked and derided like

1614
01:23:16,160 --> 01:23:19,360
Speaker 1: as their naked, cops are making comments about their bodies.

1615
01:23:20,479 --> 01:23:24,200
Speaker 1: It's like a really ugly situation, right, And I have

1616
01:23:24,439 --> 01:23:27,639
Speaker 1: no trouble believing that this is true because it comports

1617
01:23:27,720 --> 01:23:31,160
Speaker 1: with dozens of arrest stories I've heard in multiple states.

1618
01:23:31,680 --> 01:23:34,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's part for the course, Yeah.

1619
01:23:34,280 --> 01:23:36,360
Speaker 1: And it's also the fact that they are specifically the

1620
01:23:36,439 --> 01:23:38,600
Speaker 1: police are making fun of them for being trans is

1621
01:23:38,720 --> 01:23:41,080
Speaker 1: very much in line with what statistics say about trans

1622
01:23:41,120 --> 01:23:43,920
Speaker 1: people and police violence. A twenty thirteen report from the

1623
01:23:43,960 --> 01:23:46,840
Speaker 1: Anti Violence Project found that trans individuals are seven times

1624
01:23:47,000 --> 01:23:49,640
Speaker 1: likely or to experience violence while in interacting with the

1625
01:23:49,680 --> 01:23:53,000
Speaker 1: police than cisgender people. So I have no trouble believing

1626
01:23:53,040 --> 01:23:55,680
Speaker 1: Gwin's accounts here, even though again I treat her with

1627
01:23:55,760 --> 01:23:59,400
Speaker 1: proper scrutiny. In most areas, this all seems like what

1628
01:23:59,520 --> 01:23:59,880
Speaker 1: cops do.

1629
01:24:01,160 --> 01:24:01,320
Speaker 2: Now.

1630
01:24:01,439 --> 01:24:03,640
Speaker 1: The other big discrepancy where the Zizzians are I think

1631
01:24:03,640 --> 01:24:05,360
Speaker 1: a little off base is that they claim they are

1632
01:24:05,400 --> 01:24:09,120
Speaker 1: immediately dead named and misgendered by the newspapers covering their

1633
01:24:09,160 --> 01:24:12,560
Speaker 1: initial arrests. And they are dead named, But the newspapers

1634
01:24:12,600 --> 01:24:18,439
Speaker 1: don't really have an option here, right, right, They don't

1635
01:24:18,560 --> 01:24:20,759
Speaker 1: talk when they're arrested right, which is a very normal

1636
01:24:20,840 --> 01:24:23,320
Speaker 1: thing for like a protest. They say absolutely nothing and

1637
01:24:23,360 --> 01:24:26,240
Speaker 1: they have no idea on them. So the police fingerprint them,

1638
01:24:26,280 --> 01:24:29,040
Speaker 1: which brings up their legal names, and that's what's given

1639
01:24:29,080 --> 01:24:32,120
Speaker 1: to the newspapers. So like the initial news articles aren't

1640
01:24:32,160 --> 01:24:34,680
Speaker 1: try this is just the only name available. But it

1641
01:24:34,920 --> 01:24:37,600
Speaker 1: escalates this situation, right, And it is worth noting that

1642
01:24:37,600 --> 01:24:39,960
Speaker 1: a number of outlets do continue to dead name them

1643
01:24:40,000 --> 01:24:42,400
Speaker 1: up to the present, but that initial reporting it's like, well,

1644
01:24:42,439 --> 01:24:45,680
Speaker 1: that's just the only information that was available. But all

1645
01:24:45,760 --> 01:24:48,320
Speaker 1: of this is going to like this is this court

1646
01:24:48,400 --> 01:24:51,519
Speaker 1: case is going to where on they get charged initially

1647
01:24:51,600 --> 01:24:55,280
Speaker 1: with felonies. Bayla said it like fifty grand for Ziz

1648
01:24:55,360 --> 01:24:59,520
Speaker 1: and Gwynn. This is eventually reduced and they're reduced to misdemeanors.

1649
01:25:00,800 --> 01:25:02,840
Speaker 1: But it takes like four days for them to make bail.

1650
01:25:02,920 --> 01:25:04,519
Speaker 1: And there's they will be finding because they're going to

1651
01:25:04,600 --> 01:25:08,479
Speaker 1: counter sue over these arrests, and both the trauma of

1652
01:25:08,560 --> 01:25:10,960
Speaker 1: the arrests, their anger over them, and the fact that

1653
01:25:11,040 --> 01:25:13,439
Speaker 1: there's the stress of this year's long court battle is

1654
01:25:13,560 --> 01:25:16,519
Speaker 1: going to have this extremely deleterious effect on everybody's mental

1655
01:25:16,560 --> 01:25:20,920
Speaker 1: health when they're already not doing well right arrest it's

1656
01:25:20,960 --> 01:25:26,920
Speaker 1: great stuff. Yeah, right around this time the rash the

1657
01:25:27,000 --> 01:25:29,920
Speaker 1: Zizzi ends move. They stop doing their fleet thing, right,

1658
01:25:30,000 --> 01:25:32,080
Speaker 1: they move out of the boats, and they kind of

1659
01:25:32,320 --> 01:25:35,280
Speaker 1: end things by leaving their tugboat adrift because there's nothing

1660
01:25:35,360 --> 01:25:37,920
Speaker 1: to do with a ninety four foot tug boat. Nobody

1661
01:25:38,000 --> 01:25:41,160
Speaker 1: can handle a tug boat, right, Like, it's too big

1662
01:25:41,320 --> 01:25:44,040
Speaker 1: to do much with and they they probably could have

1663
01:25:44,080 --> 01:25:47,280
Speaker 1: figured something out, but they decide the opportunity cost of

1664
01:25:47,360 --> 01:25:50,400
Speaker 1: figuring out how to dispose of this boat is it

1665
01:25:50,479 --> 01:25:52,800
Speaker 1: will it will distract from their important work, so it's

1666
01:25:52,840 --> 01:25:54,880
Speaker 1: okay for it to sink and cause like a modest

1667
01:25:54,960 --> 01:25:59,960
Speaker 1: environmental crisis by leaking diesel into the bay. Basically, Zizdus

1668
01:26:00,040 --> 01:26:01,840
Speaker 1: sides that the value of all the sea life that

1669
01:26:01,920 --> 01:26:04,360
Speaker 1: it kills is less than the value of them continuing

1670
01:26:04,400 --> 01:26:07,280
Speaker 1: their work, which at this point, if you're keeping track,

1671
01:26:07,439 --> 01:26:09,000
Speaker 1: is trying to figure out how to live out of

1672
01:26:09,040 --> 01:26:13,960
Speaker 1: box trucks. So that's what they're doing now. And this

1673
01:26:14,160 --> 01:26:17,840
Speaker 1: is where a guy named curtis space. They've got a

1674
01:26:18,040 --> 01:26:24,000
Speaker 1: worse living space. They made it worse than boats. Oh boy,

1675
01:26:24,360 --> 01:26:26,200
Speaker 1: I can't tell you how much of this story is

1676
01:26:26,400 --> 01:26:33,160
Speaker 1: just the result of Bay Area rent prices being unreasonable. Yeah,

1677
01:26:33,360 --> 01:26:40,519
Speaker 1: it's a really just like Superman one. So enter Curtis

1678
01:26:40,680 --> 01:26:43,000
Speaker 1: lind Lynd is a guy. He was like a he

1679
01:26:43,120 --> 01:26:45,439
Speaker 1: made his career doing shipping. He lived in a boat

1680
01:26:45,560 --> 01:26:47,599
Speaker 1: in and around where Ziz and her friends were living

1681
01:26:47,680 --> 01:26:49,320
Speaker 1: at sea, and they met each other through that. He

1682
01:26:49,439 --> 01:26:51,840
Speaker 1: like sells them an anchor. But he's also like push

1683
01:26:51,920 --> 01:26:54,120
Speaker 1: an eighty and so he's got he's interested in like

1684
01:26:54,280 --> 01:26:56,640
Speaker 1: getting out of the boat life because it sucks. And

1685
01:26:56,760 --> 01:26:59,000
Speaker 1: he's got a plot of land that he he's he's

1686
01:26:59,040 --> 01:27:01,120
Speaker 1: got a house on and he's got extra space that

1687
01:27:01,160 --> 01:27:03,800
Speaker 1: he's interested in renting out. There's not like most there's

1688
01:27:03,840 --> 01:27:06,560
Speaker 1: not like full houses, but there's like some shipping containers

1689
01:27:06,640 --> 01:27:10,679
Speaker 1: and I think like some RVY a busted RV or whatever,

1690
01:27:11,040 --> 01:27:13,960
Speaker 1: and he's got like some power and water hookups. Here's

1691
01:27:14,000 --> 01:27:16,600
Speaker 1: how his son Carl described what his father wanted to

1692
01:27:16,680 --> 01:27:19,000
Speaker 1: do with this place. He just wanted this as a

1693
01:27:19,040 --> 01:27:22,040
Speaker 1: place to let artists or woodworkers, electricians to be able

1694
01:27:22,080 --> 01:27:23,600
Speaker 1: to come and live in a little trailer and have

1695
01:27:23,680 --> 01:27:25,559
Speaker 1: a container where they could work and put their tools

1696
01:27:25,560 --> 01:27:28,760
Speaker 1: and have a safe place. So again, depending on how

1697
01:27:28,800 --> 01:27:31,000
Speaker 1: you're looking. He's either trying to like have a cheap

1698
01:27:31,439 --> 01:27:34,320
Speaker 1: space where like, you know, artists and the like can

1699
01:27:34,400 --> 01:27:37,400
Speaker 1: afford to like survive and have little working spaces, or

1700
01:27:37,479 --> 01:27:40,400
Speaker 1: he's trying to be like a punk slumlord. Right, And

1701
01:27:40,560 --> 01:27:43,240
Speaker 1: I mean the line is thin, right, The line is thin, right,

1702
01:27:43,280 --> 01:27:47,280
Speaker 1: The line is so thin. Speaking of a thin line,

1703
01:27:47,800 --> 01:27:50,599
Speaker 1: the sponsors of this podcast are the thin line keeping

1704
01:27:50,720 --> 01:27:55,960
Speaker 1: society safe from me not having enough money to live

1705
01:27:56,000 --> 01:27:59,080
Speaker 1: in a boat, you know, or this is why I

1706
01:27:59,160 --> 01:28:00,760
Speaker 1: have enough money a lot within a boat where I

1707
01:28:00,800 --> 01:28:07,840
Speaker 1: would go crazy, or a box truck or in a

1708
01:28:07,880 --> 01:28:10,200
Speaker 1: box truck, to live in a box truck.

1709
01:28:11,560 --> 01:28:14,880
Speaker 2: The joy. Yeah, we're truck.

1710
01:28:15,280 --> 01:28:17,080
Speaker 1: We're talking about how good it is to live in

1711
01:28:17,160 --> 01:28:23,080
Speaker 1: a box truck. Good stuff.

1712
01:28:24,080 --> 01:28:26,240
Speaker 2: We know roughly how big the group is at this point.

1713
01:28:26,640 --> 01:28:28,400
Speaker 1: I think at any given time there's between like six

1714
01:28:28,479 --> 01:28:29,479
Speaker 1: and nine people, you.

1715
01:28:29,560 --> 01:28:31,840
Speaker 2: Know, okay, okay, so very small, very.

1716
01:28:32,160 --> 01:28:36,040
Speaker 1: Very small somewhere in that neighborhood. It fluctuates, And there's

1717
01:28:36,080 --> 01:28:38,000
Speaker 1: also there's a bunch of people who are like you

1718
01:28:38,080 --> 01:28:41,600
Speaker 1: could call them Zizians. They're in and out. They'll visit sometimes,

1719
01:28:42,000 --> 01:28:43,680
Speaker 1: you know, or they even live in other states. But

1720
01:28:43,720 --> 01:28:46,240
Speaker 1: They're always in contact with multiple members of the group

1721
01:28:46,280 --> 01:28:50,160
Speaker 1: through the Internet. This is a very like geographically decentralized group,

1722
01:28:50,200 --> 01:28:52,519
Speaker 1: although there is that like core inner circle who are

1723
01:28:52,520 --> 01:28:55,559
Speaker 1: all together on this land and for a while things

1724
01:28:55,600 --> 01:28:59,439
Speaker 1: are okay there the Zizians pay rent. Ziz continues to

1725
01:28:59,439 --> 01:29:02,639
Speaker 1: write blog posts and run her followers through uni hemispheric

1726
01:29:02,720 --> 01:29:06,439
Speaker 1: sleep sessions to upgrade them. And you know, it's also

1727
01:29:06,479 --> 01:29:09,040
Speaker 1: important for me to know they don't ever call themselves Zizians.

1728
01:29:09,320 --> 01:29:12,320
Speaker 1: That name first comes up around this period of time,

1729
01:29:12,479 --> 01:29:17,640
Speaker 1: right after that disastrous protest, when an anonymous rationalist publishes

1730
01:29:17,800 --> 01:29:22,600
Speaker 1: a paper called like Zizians dot info that first identifies

1731
01:29:22,640 --> 01:29:25,839
Speaker 1: them as a cult and describes like their un hemispheric

1732
01:29:25,880 --> 01:29:28,960
Speaker 1: sleep tactics. And it's written because this person is in

1733
01:29:29,240 --> 01:29:31,880
Speaker 1: the community and wants to stop other people from falling

1734
01:29:31,920 --> 01:29:34,320
Speaker 1: in with zizz And I think they have good intentions here.

1735
01:29:34,400 --> 01:29:36,880
Speaker 1: They like see the danger they also one of the

1736
01:29:36,920 --> 01:29:38,760
Speaker 1: issues with the document is I don't think they see

1737
01:29:38,840 --> 01:29:39,880
Speaker 1: some of the danger.

1738
01:29:39,640 --> 01:29:41,240
Speaker 2: Of other rationalists stuff.

1739
01:29:41,640 --> 01:29:44,439
Speaker 1: Yeah right, This is like why I say that it's

1740
01:29:44,520 --> 01:29:47,160
Speaker 1: like a cultic substrate rather than being a pure cult,

1741
01:29:47,200 --> 01:29:49,320
Speaker 1: because there are people in it who can recognize stuff

1742
01:29:49,400 --> 01:29:52,840
Speaker 1: like this and try to, you know, provide a deal

1743
01:29:52,960 --> 01:29:55,880
Speaker 1: degree of like accountability, just like there are people who

1744
01:29:55,880 --> 01:29:58,000
Speaker 1: will like report on and they help. They hold seafar

1745
01:29:58,040 --> 01:30:00,559
Speaker 1: s feet to the fire when people get acute of abuse.

1746
01:30:01,920 --> 01:30:04,760
Speaker 1: So the document alleges that Ziz had started telling her

1747
01:30:04,800 --> 01:30:07,960
Speaker 1: followers she was the basically she's the only double good

1748
01:30:08,120 --> 01:30:10,519
Speaker 1: or intrinsically good person there and one of the only

1749
01:30:10,600 --> 01:30:12,200
Speaker 1: intrinsically good people on the planet.

1750
01:30:12,800 --> 01:30:13,240
Speaker 2: Uhs.

1751
01:30:13,320 --> 01:30:15,679
Speaker 1: Sessions tended to reveal that other people in the community

1752
01:30:15,720 --> 01:30:19,280
Speaker 1: are just single good and Perziz's theories about the hero contract,

1753
01:30:19,360 --> 01:30:22,439
Speaker 1: they can only accomplish maximum good by feeding their energy

1754
01:30:22,479 --> 01:30:23,679
Speaker 1: and resources to the heroes.

1755
01:30:23,760 --> 01:30:23,920
Speaker 2: Ziz.

1756
01:30:24,439 --> 01:30:26,360
Speaker 1: Here's an example of the kind of things she sent

1757
01:30:26,479 --> 01:30:29,599
Speaker 1: people she saw as single good. Saying your single good

1758
01:30:29,680 --> 01:30:31,559
Speaker 1: is saying help, I have a yerk in my head.

1759
01:30:31,720 --> 01:30:34,439
Speaker 1: Did you ever read Anamorphs as a book? David, Wow,

1760
01:30:35,880 --> 01:30:38,400
Speaker 1: Oh that's a reference to is those worms that control

1761
01:30:38,439 --> 01:30:38,840
Speaker 1: your brain?

1762
01:30:38,920 --> 01:30:40,760
Speaker 2: And that's right?

1763
01:30:40,880 --> 01:30:45,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's yes. I know, deep cut, deep cut,

1764
01:30:45,960 --> 01:30:46,559
Speaker 1: whoa not.

1765
01:30:46,680 --> 01:30:48,439
Speaker 2: Un luck to part of my brain that I have

1766
01:30:48,600 --> 01:30:50,160
Speaker 2: not used for right?

1767
01:30:50,320 --> 01:30:53,080
Speaker 1: Right, A bunch of people are now like having like

1768
01:30:53,200 --> 01:30:56,639
Speaker 1: the severance moment, but like remembering every scholastic book fair

1769
01:30:56,680 --> 01:30:58,240
Speaker 1: they ever went to is again.

1770
01:31:00,040 --> 01:31:02,559
Speaker 2: Oh man, all they gotta do is hit goosebumps to they.

1771
01:31:02,720 --> 01:31:06,639
Speaker 1: I know, I know, if only so saying your single

1772
01:31:06,680 --> 01:31:08,439
Speaker 1: good is saying help. I have a yerk in my

1773
01:31:08,560 --> 01:31:10,400
Speaker 1: head that's a mere image of me. I need you

1774
01:31:10,479 --> 01:31:13,040
Speaker 1: to surgically destroy it, even if I'm then crippled for

1775
01:31:13,200 --> 01:31:16,120
Speaker 1: life or might die in the process. Then kill me.

1776
01:31:16,240 --> 01:31:18,240
Speaker 1: If I ever do one evil act for the rest

1777
01:31:18,320 --> 01:31:21,519
Speaker 1: of my life, that's better than being a slave. Again,

1778
01:31:22,040 --> 01:31:25,960
Speaker 1: that's her role is surgically destroying the evil brains of

1779
01:31:26,080 --> 01:31:29,559
Speaker 1: her half brains of her followers, and then she has

1780
01:31:29,640 --> 01:31:31,360
Speaker 1: to be willing to murder them if they ever do

1781
01:31:31,479 --> 01:31:33,880
Speaker 1: anything bad, because if they ever do anything bad, then

1782
01:31:33,960 --> 01:31:35,920
Speaker 1: it means that the evil side could take over and

1783
01:31:36,000 --> 01:31:39,400
Speaker 1: it could do like Megabad right, doom the world. She

1784
01:31:39,920 --> 01:31:43,200
Speaker 1: and she takes this on herself, yes, and also I

1785
01:31:43,240 --> 01:31:46,200
Speaker 1: mean she's gonna have other people do the killing basically,

1786
01:31:46,320 --> 01:31:48,719
Speaker 1: but like, yes, this is what she's saying is the stakes,

1787
01:31:48,720 --> 01:31:51,640
Speaker 1: and this is how she sees her role within the community, right,

1788
01:31:51,840 --> 01:31:53,880
Speaker 1: And I think at this point that's pretty cold leader.

1789
01:31:54,320 --> 01:31:55,880
Speaker 2: That's pretty good, I think.

1790
01:31:56,760 --> 01:32:03,720
Speaker 1: Over I think we're probably crossed that KT boundary, right, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1791
01:32:03,800 --> 01:32:06,240
Speaker 1: saying you got to murder people because they're the devil,

1792
01:32:06,720 --> 01:32:09,920
Speaker 1: the yurk inside their brain. Yeah, it might be a

1793
01:32:09,960 --> 01:32:13,160
Speaker 1: little bit of cult weather feels like a cult outside.

1794
01:32:16,000 --> 01:32:19,759
Speaker 1: So some Zizians, not implicated in any crimes, have attacked

1795
01:32:19,800 --> 01:32:22,800
Speaker 1: this piece, this Zizzians dot info things being inaccurate and

1796
01:32:22,880 --> 01:32:25,920
Speaker 1: basically a rationalist hit job. And again there's some reason

1797
01:32:26,000 --> 01:32:28,240
Speaker 1: for suspicion here, but most of the claims made in

1798
01:32:28,280 --> 01:32:31,639
Speaker 1: it I have backed up through reading the individual like sources.

1799
01:32:32,000 --> 01:32:33,320
Speaker 1: One of the issues of that A lot a lot

1800
01:32:33,360 --> 01:32:35,599
Speaker 1: of people writing about this will credit Ziz with all

1801
01:32:35,640 --> 01:32:39,640
Speaker 1: of the uni hemispheric stuff, and that's mostly Gwynn, So

1802
01:32:39,720 --> 01:32:42,599
Speaker 1: there's a point worth making. Around this time, a woman

1803
01:32:42,680 --> 01:32:46,960
Speaker 1: named Jamie Zashko started living nearby with her girlfriend Alice Monday.

1804
01:32:47,439 --> 01:32:52,240
Speaker 1: Both are rationalists that are interested in Zizz's ideas. Alice

1805
01:32:52,240 --> 01:32:54,880
Speaker 1: and Ziz have been in contact for years, and in fact, Alice,

1806
01:32:55,160 --> 01:32:58,120
Speaker 1: because she's an older and more established rationalist, when Ziz

1807
01:32:58,320 --> 01:33:00,280
Speaker 1: was kind of new to the community, had sent Ziz

1808
01:33:00,400 --> 01:33:03,240
Speaker 1: an article on the Gervais principle for the first time,

1809
01:33:03,520 --> 01:33:06,080
Speaker 1: which had spawned her ideas about needing to jail break

1810
01:33:06,120 --> 01:33:09,479
Speaker 1: people into psychopathy, and at varying times, Ziz would claim

1811
01:33:09,520 --> 01:33:13,120
Speaker 1: Alice as a mentor. There are some I don't like,

1812
01:33:13,360 --> 01:33:17,200
Speaker 1: very vague accounts that Alice has done some problematic, abusive

1813
01:33:17,240 --> 01:33:19,120
Speaker 1: stuff in the community. I don't know tree any of

1814
01:33:19,200 --> 01:33:21,240
Speaker 1: that is, but this is what people talk about, and

1815
01:33:21,320 --> 01:33:22,960
Speaker 1: I think Ziz may have had a break with her

1816
01:33:23,080 --> 01:33:27,080
Speaker 1: over some sort of disagreement because it looked It seems

1817
01:33:27,160 --> 01:33:29,639
Speaker 1: like from what I can tell, Jamie, who is dating

1818
01:33:29,680 --> 01:33:32,200
Speaker 1: Alice at the time, is in direct contact with Ziz

1819
01:33:32,320 --> 01:33:36,360
Speaker 1: and interested in her, but also is not communicating with

1820
01:33:36,479 --> 01:33:39,559
Speaker 1: Ziz under her real name. She is making a bunch

1821
01:33:39,560 --> 01:33:42,320
Speaker 1: of sock puppet accounts on her blog, and she is

1822
01:33:42,360 --> 01:33:46,360
Speaker 1: specifically commenting and trying to engage Ziz in different conversations,

1823
01:33:46,400 --> 01:33:50,080
Speaker 1: pretending to be multiple different people to quote unquote sabotage

1824
01:33:50,200 --> 01:33:53,480
Speaker 1: the whole. She believed another woman in the community, Emma Borhanian,

1825
01:33:53,840 --> 01:33:58,639
Speaker 1: had on Ziz, and Borhanian is that former Google engineer. Okay,

1826
01:33:59,360 --> 01:34:01,400
Speaker 1: so this is you know, this is part of the

1827
01:34:01,479 --> 01:34:04,720
Speaker 1: messy thing, is that like these people are all influencing

1828
01:34:04,800 --> 01:34:07,400
Speaker 1: each other and trying to like their kind of go

1829
01:34:07,600 --> 01:34:10,719
Speaker 1: to is like mind games to fuck with each other's heads.

1830
01:34:11,120 --> 01:34:13,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, not a lot of straight conversation, huh.

1831
01:34:15,200 --> 01:34:20,880
Speaker 1: No, Now, Imma Borhanian, who Jamie alleges his life's girlfriend. No,

1832
01:34:21,600 --> 01:34:24,920
Speaker 1: Jamie's dating Alice Munday. I'm sorry, but Borhanian is this

1833
01:34:25,080 --> 01:34:27,959
Speaker 1: former Google engineer who's been with Ziz since the Rationalist

1834
01:34:28,040 --> 01:34:32,080
Speaker 1: Fleet days. And Jamie thinks that she's controlling Ziz and

1835
01:34:32,160 --> 01:34:34,720
Speaker 1: she has like this bad influence that's leading them in

1836
01:34:34,760 --> 01:34:39,080
Speaker 1: a bad direction. And I've read Borhanian's blog too, because

1837
01:34:39,640 --> 01:34:43,479
Speaker 1: of course I had to. Emma is she was as

1838
01:34:43,560 --> 01:34:46,559
Speaker 1: long winded as Ziz, fewer pop culture references. She wrote

1839
01:34:46,560 --> 01:34:49,439
Speaker 1: a lot about narcissism, but unlike most of these people,

1840
01:34:49,600 --> 01:34:53,120
Speaker 1: she tended to like use a or She's like, I

1841
01:34:53,160 --> 01:34:55,400
Speaker 1: don't know, I don't understand the kind of point she's

1842
01:34:55,439 --> 01:34:57,760
Speaker 1: trying to make about narcissist, but she's very interested in

1843
01:34:57,840 --> 01:35:02,240
Speaker 1: the idea of like how narcissists work. Jamie didn't like Emma,

1844
01:35:02,360 --> 01:35:04,479
Speaker 1: and she claims that because Emma and another member of

1845
01:35:04,520 --> 01:35:07,240
Speaker 1: the community had started shit talking Alice to Ziz and

1846
01:35:07,360 --> 01:35:10,840
Speaker 1: convinced her that Alice was double evil. So Jamie creates

1847
01:35:10,840 --> 01:35:13,280
Speaker 1: all these sock puppet accounts to argue with Zizz with

1848
01:35:13,400 --> 01:35:15,439
Speaker 1: the goal of fucking with her head and making her

1849
01:35:15,479 --> 01:35:19,400
Speaker 1: distrust Emma quote. I adopted a variety of different personas,

1850
01:35:19,439 --> 01:35:21,160
Speaker 1: many of whom claim to have beliefs I've never held

1851
01:35:21,200 --> 01:35:23,479
Speaker 1: her endorsed, for the sake of determining how Ziz would

1852
01:35:23,479 --> 01:35:24,599
Speaker 1: react to these characters.

1853
01:35:25,520 --> 01:35:27,920
Speaker 2: So this isn't what and then what?

1854
01:35:28,320 --> 01:35:30,719
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. There's never seems to be a plan behind

1855
01:35:30,840 --> 01:35:35,560
Speaker 1: fuck with each other's mental health constantly. It's like, this

1856
01:35:35,760 --> 01:35:38,400
Speaker 1: is because they're always there's all these overlapping fields of

1857
01:35:38,479 --> 01:35:41,120
Speaker 1: influence between all of these mostly women, and everyone is

1858
01:35:41,160 --> 01:35:44,840
Speaker 1: fucking with each other's heads deliberately and also constantly trying

1859
01:35:44,880 --> 01:35:48,400
Speaker 1: to hack and upgrade each other. Is basically scientology in

1860
01:35:48,479 --> 01:35:51,720
Speaker 1: the form of a codependent friend group, right, Like, that's what,

1861
01:35:51,840 --> 01:35:56,640
Speaker 1: that's what's happening. Wow, this is so bad for everybody.

1862
01:35:56,840 --> 01:36:00,240
Speaker 1: It's oh man, it just they just dig deep and

1863
01:36:00,320 --> 01:36:03,160
Speaker 1: deeper and deeper. Yes, yes, that's what happens. Again, if

1864
01:36:03,200 --> 01:36:06,040
Speaker 1: you don't, this is the you know, the touch grasp

1865
01:36:06,200 --> 01:36:09,320
Speaker 1: has been turned online. People have some, as you said,

1866
01:36:09,360 --> 01:36:11,400
Speaker 1: some problematic ways of discussing it. But this is the

1867
01:36:11,439 --> 01:36:14,600
Speaker 1: importance of like turning out from your weird little subculture

1868
01:36:14,680 --> 01:36:15,080
Speaker 1: right now and.

1869
01:36:15,160 --> 01:36:19,680
Speaker 2: Again, and like, yes, definitely, because weren't. How often are

1870
01:36:19,800 --> 01:36:24,320
Speaker 2: they interacting with all the world, like in general.

1871
01:36:24,640 --> 01:36:26,920
Speaker 1: Very rarely, And most of the people they do interact

1872
01:36:26,960 --> 01:36:28,920
Speaker 1: with are like these other people who are kind of

1873
01:36:29,000 --> 01:36:31,200
Speaker 1: on the edge of dropping out of society, living on

1874
01:36:31,320 --> 01:36:33,880
Speaker 1: this guy's property, this eighty year old dance.

1875
01:36:40,000 --> 01:36:40,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1876
01:36:42,880 --> 01:36:45,880
Speaker 1: So, while Jamie and Zizz are fighting online, COVID hit

1877
01:36:46,040 --> 01:36:48,160
Speaker 1: and with it comes that eviction moratory in the state

1878
01:36:48,240 --> 01:36:51,800
Speaker 1: of California. So Zizz and her friends they stop paying

1879
01:36:51,840 --> 01:36:55,080
Speaker 1: rent to to to lend, either because they're broke or

1880
01:36:55,200 --> 01:36:58,320
Speaker 1: just because they don't need to anymore, and more than

1881
01:36:58,320 --> 01:37:00,760
Speaker 1: a year goes by. In April of twenty twenty one,

1882
01:37:00,880 --> 01:37:03,960
Speaker 1: Ziz posts this to her blog. Housing in places like

1883
01:37:04,040 --> 01:37:06,240
Speaker 1: the Bay Area is a hierarchy of rent seekers and

1884
01:37:06,280 --> 01:37:11,520
Speaker 1: the rent seekers above landlords rule by rules, surplus, selective enforcement, fear, uncertainty,

1885
01:37:11,560 --> 01:37:14,240
Speaker 1: and doubt corruption. It's all a complex and it makes

1886
01:37:14,320 --> 01:37:17,280
Speaker 1: landlords incredibly vulnerable to blackmail from someone who can do

1887
01:37:17,320 --> 01:37:20,240
Speaker 1: even a little bit of investigative work. It's bad praxice

1888
01:37:20,280 --> 01:37:25,040
Speaker 1: to pay them rent. So again, just get it, I

1889
01:37:25,240 --> 01:37:28,080
Speaker 1: get it. But this is also going to lead you

1890
01:37:28,160 --> 01:37:31,800
Speaker 1: to a bad place. This is where we get to

1891
01:37:32,000 --> 01:37:35,720
Speaker 1: divergent stories. Curtis Lynde, the landlord's story is that he

1892
01:37:35,840 --> 01:37:38,200
Speaker 1: was very supportive of these people and of trans people

1893
01:37:38,280 --> 01:37:40,479
Speaker 1: in general, taking one Zizi and out to shop for

1894
01:37:40,560 --> 01:37:43,400
Speaker 1: her first bra. His friends and family say he was

1895
01:37:43,439 --> 01:37:46,040
Speaker 1: a decent guy, and I actually when I started talking

1896
01:37:46,080 --> 01:37:48,280
Speaker 1: about writing these episodes on Blue Sky, someone chimed in

1897
01:37:48,360 --> 01:37:50,040
Speaker 1: to say they had known him too, and that he

1898
01:37:50,120 --> 01:37:52,840
Speaker 1: was a nice person. I don't know to ziz he

1899
01:37:53,040 --> 01:37:55,200
Speaker 1: was a landlord, and there are claims from the Zizians

1900
01:37:55,240 --> 01:37:58,760
Speaker 1: that he was verbally abusive and transphobic. By the end

1901
01:37:58,800 --> 01:38:00,640
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty one, after year and a half of

1902
01:38:00,760 --> 01:38:03,400
Speaker 1: unpaid rent, Lynde had started working on the process of

1903
01:38:03,479 --> 01:38:06,519
Speaker 1: having police vic them. He and other residents claimed that

1904
01:38:06,560 --> 01:38:09,240
Speaker 1: the Zizzians had become aggressive, acting as if the property

1905
01:38:09,360 --> 01:38:12,880
Speaker 1: was theirs now threatening other people, basically squatting on it,

1906
01:38:13,000 --> 01:38:15,880
Speaker 1: and like being violent at times, including like throwing rocks

1907
01:38:15,920 --> 01:38:19,080
Speaker 1: at Lynd's cabin and brandishing knives at other people. So

1908
01:38:19,400 --> 01:38:22,160
Speaker 1: there are knives, yeah, yeah, they have taken to like

1909
01:38:22,640 --> 01:38:25,720
Speaker 1: threateningly playing with knives while talking about how they will

1910
01:38:25,760 --> 01:38:29,320
Speaker 1: not leave the property or pay rent, and you get

1911
01:38:29,360 --> 01:38:33,360
Speaker 1: the feeling like I'm not again, I'm not against the

1912
01:38:33,439 --> 01:38:37,160
Speaker 1: idea that this again ambitious slumlord may have done some

1913
01:38:37,280 --> 01:38:40,080
Speaker 1: problematic things, but it sounds like the Zizians are being

1914
01:38:40,160 --> 01:38:43,800
Speaker 1: pretty deeply abusive to everyone around them, right right, which

1915
01:38:43,880 --> 01:38:47,639
Speaker 1: is also they believe is praxis. Is like these other

1916
01:38:47,760 --> 01:38:50,400
Speaker 1: people who are not who don't who aren't double good,

1917
01:38:51,160 --> 01:38:53,120
Speaker 1: and who aren't aware of the great work. They're not

1918
01:38:53,240 --> 01:38:55,760
Speaker 1: working towards the cause. They're a causal is the term

1919
01:38:55,800 --> 01:38:58,320
Speaker 1: they're use. Their lives don't really have value if you're

1920
01:38:58,360 --> 01:38:58,959
Speaker 1: not working.

1921
01:38:58,760 --> 01:38:59,320
Speaker 2: For the cause.

1922
01:38:59,760 --> 01:39:01,320
Speaker 1: Ziz earlier will decide, it's not.

1923
01:39:01,360 --> 01:39:03,439
Speaker 2: Like they're doing outreach, right, It's not like they're trying

1924
01:39:03,520 --> 01:39:05,200
Speaker 2: to convert their neighbors or anything like that.

1925
01:39:05,520 --> 01:39:08,519
Speaker 1: They're trying to convert rationalists, but they don't care about

1926
01:39:08,600 --> 01:39:11,120
Speaker 1: these weirdos living on the property with them, right right,

1927
01:39:11,439 --> 01:39:14,920
Speaker 1: And again, remember like Ziz had earlier decided that it

1928
01:39:14,960 --> 01:39:17,600
Speaker 1: would be worth four human lives for her to like

1929
01:39:17,800 --> 01:39:19,920
Speaker 1: get a she would kill four people to get a

1930
01:39:20,000 --> 01:39:23,400
Speaker 1: shower before work, right basically with the answer yeah, yeah, yeah,

1931
01:39:23,479 --> 01:39:25,400
Speaker 1: so that these people don't have a lot of value

1932
01:39:25,560 --> 01:39:28,160
Speaker 1: for other people right now. The court case over the

1933
01:39:28,200 --> 01:39:31,320
Speaker 1: protest arrests dragged on, and in November of twenty twenty one,

1934
01:39:31,800 --> 01:39:34,960
Speaker 1: Ziz and her friends who'd been arrested filed a countersuit

1935
01:39:35,000 --> 01:39:38,320
Speaker 1: against Sonoma County, as well as several individuals associated with

1936
01:39:38,400 --> 01:39:40,760
Speaker 1: Sea Far and the venue. By the time twenty twenty

1937
01:39:40,840 --> 01:39:42,960
Speaker 1: two starts, the pressure is on for Ziz and the

1938
01:39:42,960 --> 01:39:44,840
Speaker 1: people living with her to figure out what they're going

1939
01:39:44,880 --> 01:39:47,240
Speaker 1: to do next. They do, at some point work out

1940
01:39:47,280 --> 01:39:48,960
Speaker 1: a deal with Curtis Will, who give them a little

1941
01:39:49,000 --> 01:39:50,960
Speaker 1: more time to fix their RV if they promised to

1942
01:39:51,040 --> 01:39:54,439
Speaker 1: bounce as soon as possible. Ziz is no longer actively

1943
01:39:54,520 --> 01:39:57,160
Speaker 1: adding to her blog, but she's still responding to comments

1944
01:39:57,160 --> 01:40:01,160
Speaker 1: and communicating with other sympathetic rationalists regularly. She becomes much

1945
01:40:01,240 --> 01:40:04,679
Speaker 1: more focused in her writing in this period on vengeance, violence,

1946
01:40:04,760 --> 01:40:08,360
Speaker 1: and death, as do others in her community. Per Wired quote,

1947
01:40:08,800 --> 01:40:12,160
Speaker 1: Losoda and others wrote, a vengeance against the timeless decisions

1948
01:40:12,200 --> 01:40:16,360
Speaker 1: of others. If you truly irreconcilably disagree with someone's creative

1949
01:40:16,479 --> 01:40:20,200
Speaker 1: choice i e. Their choice, extending arbitrarily fallen far into

1950
01:40:20,240 --> 01:40:23,360
Speaker 1: the past and future, ultimately your only recourse is to

1951
01:40:23,479 --> 01:40:26,240
Speaker 1: kill them one, Lesoda ally wrote in a long blog

1952
01:40:26,320 --> 01:40:29,920
Speaker 1: post citing Zizz's philosophies. In the comments, Losoda wrote, I

1953
01:40:30,000 --> 01:40:32,720
Speaker 1: am so fucking glad to finally have an equal.

1954
01:40:33,880 --> 01:40:34,479
Speaker 2: Great stuff.

1955
01:40:37,120 --> 01:40:39,600
Speaker 1: In spring of twenty twenty one, one of their rationalist

1956
01:40:39,680 --> 01:40:42,439
Speaker 1: Fleet veterans close to Zizz, Jay Winterford, who went by

1957
01:40:42,479 --> 01:40:48,200
Speaker 1: the name Fluttershy, killed themselves. They had Winterford had written

1958
01:40:48,240 --> 01:40:50,760
Speaker 1: about seeing Zizz's techniques as a way to deal with

1959
01:40:50,880 --> 01:40:54,320
Speaker 1: his childhood trauma, and Losoda wrote on her blog about

1960
01:40:54,560 --> 01:40:58,840
Speaker 1: her repeated attempts to fix and upgrade him. Now, Ziz

1961
01:40:59,000 --> 01:41:01,800
Speaker 1: wrote about this person and calls him a death knight,

1962
01:41:02,120 --> 01:41:04,080
Speaker 1: and as best as I can tell, a death knight

1963
01:41:04,200 --> 01:41:06,320
Speaker 1: is a zizi in term for someone who snaps and

1964
01:41:06,439 --> 01:41:09,040
Speaker 1: murders a bunch of people. She calls Hitler a death knight,

1965
01:41:09,080 --> 01:41:11,320
Speaker 1: but she also uses the term for mass shooters, and

1966
01:41:11,400 --> 01:41:14,200
Speaker 1: she claims Winterford quote tried very hard to convince me

1967
01:41:14,360 --> 01:41:16,320
Speaker 1: and then us to join them in service of the

1968
01:41:16,360 --> 01:41:19,160
Speaker 1: Goddess of rape and death. Straight up declared intentions to

1969
01:41:19,240 --> 01:41:21,240
Speaker 1: kill us, did a bunch of horrible shit, like said

1970
01:41:21,240 --> 01:41:23,200
Speaker 1: they were going to do even more horrible shit. I

1971
01:41:23,280 --> 01:41:25,320
Speaker 1: spent about seven months, most of every day in a

1972
01:41:25,400 --> 01:41:27,720
Speaker 1: desperate and mutual mental battle, trying to get in their

1973
01:41:27,760 --> 01:41:30,519
Speaker 1: head somehow how understand this death drive thing I couldn't

1974
01:41:30,520 --> 01:41:32,760
Speaker 1: simulate in my own mind that made no sense and

1975
01:41:32,880 --> 01:41:34,639
Speaker 1: out predict them like all their lives in the world

1976
01:41:34,680 --> 01:41:36,920
Speaker 1: depended on it. And basically, this person's talking about doing

1977
01:41:36,920 --> 01:41:39,679
Speaker 1: like a mass shooting or some other terrorist attack against

1978
01:41:39,720 --> 01:41:43,200
Speaker 1: the rationalist community in Ziz's name, and Ziz claims that

1979
01:41:43,280 --> 01:41:46,920
Speaker 1: she's like spend seven months trying to stop them from

1980
01:41:47,000 --> 01:41:50,599
Speaker 1: doing this, and then finally they just kill themselves rather

1981
01:41:50,640 --> 01:41:55,000
Speaker 1: than killing anybody else. And again they framed Ziz Frims

1982
01:41:55,120 --> 01:41:57,160
Speaker 1: is like their heroic battle to stop this person from

1983
01:41:57,240 --> 01:42:00,760
Speaker 1: murdering other people and damaging the cause. Like I don't know,

1984
01:42:00,840 --> 01:42:04,519
Speaker 1: maybe maybe like this person needed professional help when they

1985
01:42:04,560 --> 01:42:07,360
Speaker 1: started talking about wanting to do a masterfully when it's

1986
01:42:07,400 --> 01:42:09,599
Speaker 1: running the murder a bunch of people, maybe they needed help,

1987
01:42:09,880 --> 01:42:11,280
Speaker 1: like not your help.

1988
01:42:13,320 --> 01:42:15,200
Speaker 2: I don't know if anyone needs help.

1989
01:42:15,360 --> 01:42:18,840
Speaker 1: No, No, Ziz does not even needs help. No, And

1990
01:42:18,960 --> 01:42:22,760
Speaker 1: she weaves this person's death into this very this messianic

1991
01:42:22,880 --> 01:42:25,240
Speaker 1: hero's journey for herself. Posting this in the summer of

1992
01:42:25,280 --> 01:42:28,479
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two. Since posting this, I have been tortured,

1993
01:42:28,560 --> 01:42:31,320
Speaker 1: survived seven assassination attempts, three more attempts to do me

1994
01:42:31,400 --> 01:42:34,479
Speaker 1: permanent bodily harm. Four people individually decided they had the

1995
01:42:34,560 --> 01:42:36,840
Speaker 1: sole rights to be my death love arch nemesis as

1996
01:42:36,840 --> 01:42:39,920
Speaker 1: if they'd be alone. Accidentally exposed myself to a one

1997
01:42:39,920 --> 01:42:43,719
Speaker 1: one hundredth of my hell, and one committed suicide, others utterly, utterly,

1998
01:42:43,800 --> 01:42:46,400
Speaker 1: mentally cracked. No one knows what she's talking about with

1999
01:42:46,479 --> 01:42:50,960
Speaker 1: these assassination attempts are all just Someone may have given

2000
01:42:51,040 --> 01:42:53,360
Speaker 1: her a mean look at a grocery store and she

2001
01:42:53,720 --> 01:42:56,760
Speaker 1: sided right, Like that's the mind Staate bins out right.

2002
01:42:57,840 --> 01:42:58,040
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2003
01:42:59,280 --> 01:43:02,000
Speaker 1: Rationalists who had declared Ze's a cult leader considered all

2004
01:43:02,040 --> 01:43:06,400
Speaker 1: of this further evidence that she was dangerous Again. Rationalists

2005
01:43:06,400 --> 01:43:09,040
Speaker 1: also convince people to kill themselves be alogic traps, but

2006
01:43:09,240 --> 01:43:12,720
Speaker 1: like they're not wrong to point this out now. I

2007
01:43:12,840 --> 01:43:16,040
Speaker 1: brought up Jamie's Ashco and Alice Monday a little earlier.

2008
01:43:16,760 --> 01:43:18,639
Speaker 1: They had moved out of the Bay in late twenty

2009
01:43:18,720 --> 01:43:21,400
Speaker 1: twenty and headed to Vermont, where Jamie, who had some

2010
01:43:21,520 --> 01:43:25,080
Speaker 1: family money, bought land in a gun in February of

2011
01:43:25,120 --> 01:43:27,040
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, she made a blog post with the

2012
01:43:27,080 --> 01:43:30,000
Speaker 1: subtitle I trolled Ziz and now she wants to murder me.

2013
01:43:30,720 --> 01:43:32,639
Speaker 1: In it, she claimed, she talks about how, like yeah,

2014
01:43:32,680 --> 01:43:35,280
Speaker 1: she made all these fake accounts, and in late twenty

2015
01:43:35,320 --> 01:43:37,800
Speaker 1: twenty one, she and Ziz finally start talking under their

2016
01:43:37,880 --> 01:43:41,400
Speaker 1: real names, and Ziz talks about these trolling messages from

2017
01:43:41,479 --> 01:43:43,519
Speaker 1: the fake accounts Jamie had made and like said that

2018
01:43:43,560 --> 01:43:46,160
Speaker 1: they really fucked with her head. And so Jamie, who's

2019
01:43:46,160 --> 01:43:49,280
Speaker 1: starting to view Zizz as a friend, comes out and

2020
01:43:49,400 --> 01:43:52,080
Speaker 1: admits what she did, and Ziz responds by saying, the

2021
01:43:52,200 --> 01:43:54,639
Speaker 1: only way you can make this right is to murder

2022
01:43:55,000 --> 01:43:58,679
Speaker 1: your like girlfriend ex girlfriends a little unclear Alice Monday,

2023
01:43:58,760 --> 01:44:00,679
Speaker 1: my old mentor like, you have to kill this person

2024
01:44:00,760 --> 01:44:04,080
Speaker 1: for me in order to make this right. Here's what

2025
01:44:04,280 --> 01:44:07,160
Speaker 1: Jamie writes during her last phone call Ziz in for

2026
01:44:07,360 --> 01:44:09,080
Speaker 1: me that the only way I could gain her trust

2027
01:44:09,120 --> 01:44:11,120
Speaker 1: and make up for what I did was to murder Alice,

2028
01:44:11,240 --> 01:44:14,639
Speaker 1: preferably sometime soon. Ziz helpfully suggested I use a gun

2029
01:44:14,720 --> 01:44:17,200
Speaker 1: with a potato as a makeshift suppressor, and that I

2030
01:44:17,320 --> 01:44:20,040
Speaker 1: might destroy the body with lie and then told me

2031
01:44:20,120 --> 01:44:22,640
Speaker 1: that after I should video call Ziz and show her

2032
01:44:22,720 --> 01:44:24,960
Speaker 1: the body before I destroy it so she could get

2033
01:44:24,960 --> 01:44:27,160
Speaker 1: proof positive that I'd really done it. And if I

2034
01:44:27,240 --> 01:44:29,679
Speaker 1: didn't do it, Ziz plan to drive across the entire

2035
01:44:30,040 --> 01:44:31,600
Speaker 1: entire continental United States.

2036
01:44:31,360 --> 01:44:31,920
Speaker 2: To murder me.

2037
01:44:34,120 --> 01:44:37,679
Speaker 1: Great cast the die is cast.

2038
01:44:37,960 --> 01:44:38,639
Speaker 2: Now shit.

2039
01:44:39,840 --> 01:44:42,960
Speaker 1: Jamie says that Ziz wants Alice dead because she thinks

2040
01:44:43,000 --> 01:44:45,599
Speaker 1: Alice is a mentor and she's got this whole Sith

2041
01:44:45,680 --> 01:44:47,920
Speaker 1: thing going on, so she's like, guess with the Sith

2042
01:44:47,960 --> 01:44:50,639
Speaker 1: always kill their mentors, So I have to kill Alice

2043
01:44:51,040 --> 01:44:52,640
Speaker 1: or I can't get powerful.

2044
01:44:52,360 --> 01:44:53,479
Speaker 2: Enough to save the world.

2045
01:44:55,439 --> 01:44:59,960
Speaker 1: Great, it's crazy. I love philosophy. A story that is escalator.

2046
01:45:00,080 --> 01:45:02,720
Speaker 2: It's so crazy it is wild to hear it where

2047
01:45:02,760 --> 01:45:05,840
Speaker 2: it's like, Okay, this is where this is where it starts,

2048
01:45:05,880 --> 01:45:06,639
Speaker 2: the wheels start.

2049
01:45:06,520 --> 01:45:09,599
Speaker 1: To really this is where that border patrol officer's death

2050
01:45:09,680 --> 01:45:10,600
Speaker 1: becomes inevitable.

2051
01:45:10,920 --> 01:45:14,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, because now you feel like us backed herself into

2052
01:45:14,800 --> 01:45:17,120
Speaker 2: a corner where someone's going to die. Yes, someone like

2053
01:45:17,320 --> 01:45:20,640
Speaker 2: talking about it, You're threatening it seriously, you're telling it

2054
01:45:20,760 --> 01:45:23,640
Speaker 2: like at this point, right is someone this is going

2055
01:45:23,720 --> 01:45:24,600
Speaker 2: to happen at this.

2056
01:45:24,720 --> 01:45:29,280
Speaker 1: Point if no outside power comes in to disrupt these

2057
01:45:29,400 --> 01:45:33,000
Speaker 1: thought chains. And decision chains. Someone is going to die

2058
01:45:33,080 --> 01:45:36,080
Speaker 1: and no one does come in right and several people die.

2059
01:45:36,840 --> 01:45:39,760
Speaker 2: I mean, how could it someone rationally even? How could we?

2060
01:45:40,160 --> 01:45:43,240
Speaker 2: How could say irrationally right? How how could someone even

2061
01:45:43,280 --> 01:45:43,639
Speaker 2: get there?

2062
01:45:43,840 --> 01:45:46,400
Speaker 1: How can you think about like it's so you think

2063
01:45:46,400 --> 01:45:50,679
Speaker 1: about something like fifty one, fifty this this fluttershy person

2064
01:45:50,760 --> 01:45:51,840
Speaker 1: right or fifteen or fifties? Is?

2065
01:45:52,000 --> 01:45:52,800
Speaker 2: Does that make it better?

2066
01:45:52,920 --> 01:45:56,200
Speaker 1: Probably not? Probably just makes them even more paranoid and

2067
01:45:56,360 --> 01:45:58,600
Speaker 1: angry and convince to do violence.

2068
01:45:58,680 --> 01:46:02,600
Speaker 2: Because like the eleven assassination, I.

2069
01:46:02,840 --> 01:46:04,960
Speaker 1: Don't know how you fix this at this point.

2070
01:46:05,760 --> 01:46:09,040
Speaker 2: No, No, it's it might be I think it might

2071
01:46:09,120 --> 01:46:09,920
Speaker 2: be too far gone.

2072
01:46:10,400 --> 01:46:13,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's there's I'm sure there's some possible way that

2073
01:46:13,680 --> 01:46:15,680
Speaker 1: this could have been fixed, but it's not clear to me.

2074
01:46:16,479 --> 01:46:18,600
Speaker 2: And who who would be a person does it?

2075
01:46:19,360 --> 01:46:19,519
Speaker 1: Right?

2076
01:46:19,600 --> 01:46:21,559
Speaker 2: It would be the person to do it. Maybe get

2077
01:46:21,600 --> 01:46:24,760
Speaker 2: George Lucas in there. George, yes, Oh my god, that's so.

2078
01:46:25,640 --> 01:46:28,400
Speaker 1: Lady's have taken your movies way too seriously. We need

2079
01:46:28,520 --> 01:46:30,920
Speaker 1: George sound and talk.

2080
01:46:30,800 --> 01:46:33,639
Speaker 2: Them out of committing murders. This is gonna sound crazy.

2081
01:46:33,920 --> 01:46:35,920
Speaker 2: There's a bunch of people in a box truck wanting

2082
01:46:35,920 --> 01:46:39,320
Speaker 2: to kill in your name, Get.

2083
01:46:39,200 --> 01:46:42,799
Speaker 1: Ricky, get Ricky Gervas and George Lucas on a shopper,

2084
01:46:43,080 --> 01:46:45,040
Speaker 1: get him in here on a black They gotta talk

2085
01:46:45,120 --> 01:46:55,719
Speaker 1: these people down. Oh shit, fuck, oh man, it's so funny.

2086
01:46:56,320 --> 01:46:58,840
Speaker 1: Just a week later, George Lucas is completely in the cult.

2087
01:46:58,880 --> 01:46:59,920
Speaker 1: He's wearing all black.

2088
01:47:01,640 --> 01:47:02,200
Speaker 3: No no, no, no.

2089
01:47:07,920 --> 01:47:10,240
Speaker 2: So he's writing it's not even fan fiction. He's writing

2090
01:47:10,320 --> 01:47:11,799
Speaker 2: canonical stars, writing.

2091
01:47:11,640 --> 01:47:19,799
Speaker 1: Canonical star wars. Ponder that and ponder these ads, my friends.

2092
01:47:20,120 --> 01:47:29,120
Speaker 1: We'll be back with more. So we're back now. Jamie

2093
01:47:29,240 --> 01:47:31,080
Speaker 1: is one of the few people who is like as

2094
01:47:31,160 --> 01:47:34,120
Speaker 1: good at manipulating zizz as zizz at other people in

2095
01:47:34,200 --> 01:47:37,320
Speaker 1: this community. And after this is like, hey, look very

2096
01:47:37,360 --> 01:47:39,840
Speaker 1: high man, this is like, look, I'll have to kill

2097
01:47:39,880 --> 01:47:41,560
Speaker 1: you if you don't kill Alice. You know, and you

2098
01:47:41,640 --> 01:47:44,799
Speaker 1: know I'll do it because it's a timeless decision. Jamie

2099
01:47:44,960 --> 01:47:48,200
Speaker 1: counters in a very effective way by saying, like making

2100
01:47:48,240 --> 01:47:51,519
Speaker 1: a blog post saying Ziz said all this, I am

2101
01:47:51,600 --> 01:47:54,559
Speaker 1: not suicidal. If I die, it's her, and also letting

2102
01:47:54,600 --> 01:47:56,720
Speaker 1: Ziz know quote I have friends who will avenge me.

2103
01:47:57,000 --> 01:48:00,520
Speaker 1: Murdering Alice or me now is tantamount to committing suicide

2104
01:48:00,560 --> 01:48:04,879
Speaker 1: by proxy, so they have this like checkmate counter checkmate

2105
01:48:05,160 --> 01:48:08,880
Speaker 1: chess match in blog posts that gets interrupted in March

2106
01:48:09,080 --> 01:48:12,400
Speaker 1: when Gwynn fakes her death, probably to escape the litigation.

2107
01:48:12,560 --> 01:48:16,920
Speaker 1: They're all, yeah, Gwinn, get out of here. Gwinn does

2108
01:48:17,080 --> 01:48:20,080
Speaker 1: make the good decision, because sometime after faking her death

2109
01:48:20,200 --> 01:48:23,360
Speaker 1: she bounces from this whole community. She does get out

2110
01:48:23,400 --> 01:48:23,760
Speaker 1: of there.

2111
01:48:23,920 --> 01:48:26,240
Speaker 3: Okay, there was just no way this story was going

2112
01:48:26,280 --> 01:48:29,120
Speaker 3: to end without a deaf somebody faking their own death.

2113
01:48:29,320 --> 01:48:33,080
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Sophie, so excited for you. This story doesn't

2114
01:48:33,080 --> 01:48:36,479
Speaker 1: even end. This story like Late middles with two death fakings,

2115
01:48:36,840 --> 01:48:40,240
Speaker 1: because in September of twenty twenty two, Ziz fakes her

2116
01:48:40,320 --> 01:48:43,960
Speaker 1: death in a boding accident on the Black Signet. Emma

2117
01:48:44,040 --> 01:48:47,960
Speaker 1: calls the cops says that she fell overboard the Coastguard.

2118
01:48:48,040 --> 01:48:50,080
Speaker 1: They work so hard to try to find her and

2119
01:48:50,200 --> 01:48:52,559
Speaker 1: save her that they get fatigue waivers so they can

2120
01:48:52,680 --> 01:48:55,599
Speaker 1: work all night. But they find nothing because she's not dead.

2121
01:48:56,240 --> 01:48:57,960
Speaker 2: Jesus on the block signal.

2122
01:48:58,360 --> 01:49:02,200
Speaker 1: I don't know where she actually was, but she doesn't.

2123
01:49:02,240 --> 01:49:06,559
Speaker 1: She's not dead, is declared dead, and her of her

2124
01:49:06,640 --> 01:49:12,880
Speaker 1: family princes an obituary like Gwinn's death faking is a

2125
01:49:12,960 --> 01:49:16,599
Speaker 1: little less successful. Like their lawyer in court after they

2126
01:49:16,680 --> 01:49:19,400
Speaker 1: come in with legal evidence that this is dead, Gwinn's

2127
01:49:19,439 --> 01:49:21,680
Speaker 1: lawyer is like, I really don't think they're dead. I

2128
01:49:21,760 --> 01:49:22,720
Speaker 1: think they're faking it.

2129
01:49:24,880 --> 01:49:28,639
Speaker 3: Wow, what a snitch a lawyer.

2130
01:49:29,080 --> 01:49:33,880
Speaker 1: These lawyers don't like they don't like their lawyers. Well,

2131
01:49:34,760 --> 01:49:35,519
Speaker 1: now that's.

2132
01:49:35,400 --> 01:49:39,240
Speaker 3: Where they fucked up. You can't your lawyer has to

2133
01:49:39,479 --> 01:49:40,160
Speaker 3: ride for you.

2134
01:49:41,120 --> 01:49:47,840
Speaker 1: That look, l Ron, who knows what they're talking about?

2135
01:49:49,080 --> 01:49:54,280
Speaker 1: These people at this is what's going on. The sanest

2136
01:49:54,360 --> 01:49:56,920
Speaker 1: decision one of them is made is to fake their death.

2137
01:49:58,640 --> 01:50:01,479
Speaker 2: More lawyers in this story, maybe so maybe.

2138
01:50:01,320 --> 01:50:04,439
Speaker 1: A couple of lawyers digital could have fixed this. So,

2139
01:50:05,280 --> 01:50:08,479
Speaker 1: I don't know precisely. So they like money, No, these

2140
01:50:08,520 --> 01:50:09,559
Speaker 1: are these are public defenders.

2141
01:50:09,680 --> 01:50:11,439
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, so.

2142
01:50:11,920 --> 01:50:14,760
Speaker 1: Gwinn clearly fakes their death just to clear themselves of

2143
01:50:14,800 --> 01:50:17,560
Speaker 1: their legal problems. I think Zizz does it for that.

2144
01:50:18,040 --> 01:50:20,599
Speaker 1: But also she and her closest friends are now plotting

2145
01:50:20,640 --> 01:50:25,040
Speaker 1: the murder of Curtis Lynd. We don't really Yeah, that's

2146
01:50:25,080 --> 01:50:27,639
Speaker 1: the landlord and they want to kill Curtis. Yes, yes,

2147
01:50:27,680 --> 01:50:30,880
Speaker 1: they want to kill Curtis. They want to stay on

2148
01:50:30,960 --> 01:50:33,040
Speaker 1: the land Is that the kind of the thought. I

2149
01:50:33,120 --> 01:50:35,040
Speaker 1: think they want to stay on the land. I think

2150
01:50:35,120 --> 01:50:38,600
Speaker 1: they also their escalation logic is that if he is

2151
01:50:38,680 --> 01:50:41,720
Speaker 1: having the Cops evict us, that is a situation that

2152
01:50:41,800 --> 01:50:43,920
Speaker 1: could end in our deaths. So he's trying to murder us,

2153
01:50:44,000 --> 01:50:45,640
Speaker 1: So the logical thing for us to do is to

2154
01:50:45,720 --> 01:50:47,519
Speaker 1: kill him now to protect us both from him and

2155
01:50:47,640 --> 01:50:48,160
Speaker 1: from other.

2156
01:50:48,080 --> 01:50:49,719
Speaker 2: People, and then have sex with his body.

2157
01:50:50,320 --> 01:50:52,000
Speaker 1: I don't I don't think they're going to do that,

2158
01:50:52,280 --> 01:50:57,240
Speaker 1: but they are at least aware of that as an option. Yeah,

2159
01:50:57,680 --> 01:51:00,679
Speaker 1: So the reality of what happens next is a little

2160
01:51:00,720 --> 01:51:03,000
Speaker 1: bit in dispute. But what no one disagrees is that

2161
01:51:03,080 --> 01:51:05,320
Speaker 1: on November thirteenth, twenty twenty two, this is like right

2162
01:51:05,360 --> 01:51:09,080
Speaker 1: after midnight, Curtis Lynde is stabbed repeatedly and impaled with

2163
01:51:09,200 --> 01:51:13,040
Speaker 1: a samurai sword. He also, during the same altercation, shoots

2164
01:51:13,120 --> 01:51:16,360
Speaker 1: and kills Imma Borhanian and wounds another member of the group.

2165
01:51:17,160 --> 01:51:19,920
Speaker 1: In one Tumbler post, a Zizian with the username A

2166
01:51:20,040 --> 01:51:23,280
Speaker 1: Flower by another Name gives what I think is probably

2167
01:51:23,439 --> 01:51:26,880
Speaker 1: a representative example of how the Zizians want to depict

2168
01:51:26,960 --> 01:51:30,679
Speaker 1: what happened next. What happened here Kurt quote Curtis lynd

2169
01:51:30,760 --> 01:51:34,320
Speaker 1: and his ex CIA best friend Patrick McMillan spent months

2170
01:51:34,360 --> 01:51:37,400
Speaker 1: threatening Emma and her friends. Unlike what the papers claim,

2171
01:51:37,479 --> 01:51:39,960
Speaker 1: Emma and her friends weren't squatters. They were tenants who

2172
01:51:39,960 --> 01:51:41,920
Speaker 1: were struggling to find jobs or a place that would

2173
01:51:41,960 --> 01:51:44,720
Speaker 1: least to them after Mierkan Sefar called a swat team

2174
01:51:44,800 --> 01:51:48,360
Speaker 1: on them in twenty nineteen. Now, I don't know if

2175
01:51:48,439 --> 01:51:50,400
Speaker 1: McMillan was in the CIA, and I don't know if

2176
01:51:50,439 --> 01:51:52,840
Speaker 1: he and Curtis threatened these ladies, but I will say

2177
01:51:52,920 --> 01:51:56,040
Speaker 1: the preponderance of evidence suggests they were in fact squatting.

2178
01:51:56,479 --> 01:51:58,479
Speaker 1: This account blames them on not being able to make

2179
01:51:58,520 --> 01:52:00,559
Speaker 1: rent on their legal bills, but at this point they

2180
01:52:00,600 --> 01:52:03,200
Speaker 1: had been squatting for like two years in change. I

2181
01:52:03,280 --> 01:52:05,280
Speaker 1: don't know if Lynde was transphobic.

2182
01:52:05,600 --> 01:52:06,000
Speaker 2: I don't know.

2183
01:52:06,439 --> 01:52:09,559
Speaker 1: You know, they say he alienated them from their neighbors

2184
01:52:09,640 --> 01:52:11,120
Speaker 1: by telling them that they were in a cult. I

2185
01:52:11,160 --> 01:52:13,439
Speaker 1: don't know if that's true, or if they alienated their

2186
01:52:13,439 --> 01:52:17,040
Speaker 1: neighbors by being very off putting and aggressive. This Zizian

2187
01:52:17,120 --> 01:52:20,960
Speaker 1: account claims that other individuals started threatening to call the

2188
01:52:21,000 --> 01:52:23,000
Speaker 1: cops on the Zizians, and thus quote it was an

2189
01:52:23,080 --> 01:52:27,160
Speaker 1: unending nightmare for them of terrifying, insane threats from every corner. Now,

2190
01:52:27,240 --> 01:52:29,880
Speaker 1: the author of this document says they weren't there themselves,

2191
01:52:30,479 --> 01:52:34,320
Speaker 1: but believes heard, like other members of the community, explain

2192
01:52:34,400 --> 01:52:38,040
Speaker 1: what happened, and they said that Lynde made specific threats

2193
01:52:38,080 --> 01:52:40,560
Speaker 1: in the fall of twenty twenty two, which culminated in

2194
01:52:40,640 --> 01:52:42,840
Speaker 1: one member of the group buying a bulletproof vest and

2195
01:52:42,960 --> 01:52:46,080
Speaker 1: wearing it at all times. I don't trust this account,

2196
01:52:46,439 --> 01:52:48,519
Speaker 1: and among other things, it lies about the nature of

2197
01:52:48,560 --> 01:52:51,960
Speaker 1: their living situation. It lies by saying Emma had filed

2198
01:52:52,000 --> 01:52:54,880
Speaker 1: paperwork to take Curtis to court over the eviction. There

2199
01:52:55,000 --> 01:52:59,599
Speaker 1: was no court thing filed here. There's a very good

2200
01:52:59,840 --> 01:53:02,479
Speaker 1: comprehensive source on this by an individual who goes by

2201
01:53:02,560 --> 01:53:05,320
Speaker 1: Ken the Cowboy on Twitter, and he notes in this

2202
01:53:05,479 --> 01:53:08,120
Speaker 1: timeline of events, the last sentence is not true. There's

2203
01:53:08,160 --> 01:53:10,320
Speaker 1: no record of any lawsuit being filed in twenty twenty

2204
01:53:10,360 --> 01:53:12,439
Speaker 1: two with any of the Zizzian's as plaintiffs and with

2205
01:53:12,520 --> 01:53:17,360
Speaker 1: Curtis Lynde as a defendant. So they claim basically, this

2206
01:53:17,479 --> 01:53:19,640
Speaker 1: guy was aggressive and threatening us, and one day he

2207
01:53:19,760 --> 01:53:23,519
Speaker 1: attacked us right quote that morning he decided to stop them.

2208
01:53:23,600 --> 01:53:25,040
Speaker 1: He walked all the way from his trailer to their

2209
01:53:25,080 --> 01:53:27,479
Speaker 1: trucks while they were packing their things and opened fire.

2210
01:53:27,920 --> 01:53:30,360
Speaker 1: Lynde shot Emma point blank through her heart and lung.

2211
01:53:30,479 --> 01:53:32,639
Speaker 1: She collapsed to the ground and immediately her lung began

2212
01:53:32,680 --> 01:53:35,320
Speaker 1: filling with her heart's blood. She died within twenty seconds,

2213
01:53:35,439 --> 01:53:37,680
Speaker 1: violently coughing up chunks of her lung tissue in a

2214
01:53:37,720 --> 01:53:40,760
Speaker 1: feutal attempt to clear her airways. Soomny was shot six

2215
01:53:40,840 --> 01:53:43,080
Speaker 1: times rushing in a feutal attempt to save Emma's life.

2216
01:53:43,160 --> 01:53:45,120
Speaker 1: The vest saved her life, but she was still hit

2217
01:53:45,200 --> 01:53:47,759
Speaker 1: through the neck and stomach. She acted only in self defense.

2218
01:53:48,680 --> 01:53:51,240
Speaker 1: That's the Zizian claim here, that he just walks in

2219
01:53:51,439 --> 01:53:55,200
Speaker 1: as they're getting ready to leave and starts shooting them. Right, Yeah,

2220
01:53:55,320 --> 01:54:00,360
Speaker 1: that's stupid, now, that's their claim. This leaves out a

2221
01:54:00,479 --> 01:54:03,160
Speaker 1: very important fact, which is that Curtis Linde is stabbed

2222
01:54:03,240 --> 01:54:04,280
Speaker 1: fifty times.

2223
01:54:05,520 --> 01:54:06,000
Speaker 2: Fifteen.

2224
01:54:06,520 --> 01:54:12,400
Speaker 1: Yes, Lind's account is somewhat less sympathetic to these people.

2225
01:54:12,920 --> 01:54:15,639
Speaker 1: He claims that after getting successfully getting a judgment against

2226
01:54:15,640 --> 01:54:17,120
Speaker 1: them in a court, he moved to a vict and

2227
01:54:17,520 --> 01:54:20,240
Speaker 1: the sheriff agreed to do an eviction. On November fifteenth,

2228
01:54:20,520 --> 01:54:21,720
Speaker 1: and this is what Lynd later said.

2229
01:54:21,800 --> 01:54:22,080
Speaker 2: Quote.

2230
01:54:22,280 --> 01:54:23,760
Speaker 1: So they're worried about where they were going to go

2231
01:54:23,840 --> 01:54:25,080
Speaker 1: and what they were going to do. And they had

2232
01:54:25,120 --> 01:54:26,720
Speaker 1: a meeting with me, and the meeting was about them

2233
01:54:26,760 --> 01:54:29,080
Speaker 1: staying for another two months and not paying I said, no,

2234
01:54:29,280 --> 01:54:31,200
Speaker 1: I can't do that. So one of them took out

2235
01:54:31,240 --> 01:54:32,760
Speaker 1: a knife. It was a folding knife. It was a

2236
01:54:32,840 --> 01:54:36,040
Speaker 1: fairly large folding knife, and started patting the blade in

2237
01:54:36,120 --> 01:54:38,280
Speaker 1: their hand like this and looking at me and smiling.

2238
01:54:38,920 --> 01:54:42,160
Speaker 1: And they don't specify who this was. I don't know,

2239
01:54:42,440 --> 01:54:47,520
Speaker 1: like you know entirely, like which person he's accusing here

2240
01:54:48,360 --> 01:54:51,160
Speaker 1: or whatever. But he says, this is how his account

2241
01:54:51,200 --> 01:54:56,160
Speaker 1: of the attack itself is that after this, after he

2242
01:54:56,200 --> 01:54:57,880
Speaker 1: gets threatened with a knife, he goes and he buys

2243
01:54:57,920 --> 01:55:00,920
Speaker 1: a pistol and he gets a license to carry. And

2244
01:55:01,080 --> 01:55:03,240
Speaker 1: then right before the sheriffs are supposed to show up

2245
01:55:03,240 --> 01:55:06,960
Speaker 1: to evict them, one of the Zizians named Surrey shows

2246
01:55:07,040 --> 01:55:09,440
Speaker 1: up and she tries to get him to like come

2247
01:55:09,800 --> 01:55:12,360
Speaker 1: help turn the water off and her trailer. So he

2248
01:55:12,480 --> 01:55:14,960
Speaker 1: goes over there to turn the water off, and as

2249
01:55:15,040 --> 01:55:16,880
Speaker 1: he bins over to do that, he gets hit with

2250
01:55:17,000 --> 01:55:19,840
Speaker 1: something that shatters the right side of his skull quote.

2251
01:55:19,880 --> 01:55:21,520
Speaker 1: And the next thing I remember is standing up with

2252
01:55:21,600 --> 01:55:23,320
Speaker 1: three of them right next to me, you know, or

2253
01:55:23,400 --> 01:55:25,720
Speaker 1: around me, And I was bleeding from numerous puncture wounds.

2254
01:55:25,760 --> 01:55:27,800
Speaker 1: I think around fifty. I couldn't see out of my

2255
01:55:27,920 --> 01:55:30,160
Speaker 1: right eye, had been punctured three times. The back of

2256
01:55:30,240 --> 01:55:32,680
Speaker 1: my neck had some severe cuts, like someone was trying

2257
01:55:32,720 --> 01:55:34,480
Speaker 1: to cut my head off. You know. I had no

2258
01:55:34,600 --> 01:55:36,680
Speaker 1: idea what was happening or when this had all happened.

2259
01:55:36,720 --> 01:55:38,960
Speaker 1: I was completely gone while this was happening. And how

2260
01:55:39,000 --> 01:55:40,560
Speaker 1: I stood back up or got to that spot, I

2261
01:55:40,640 --> 01:55:42,360
Speaker 1: have no idea. But I looked at all the blood

2262
01:55:42,360 --> 01:55:44,440
Speaker 1: coming out of me. Oh, and I had a sword,

2263
01:55:44,600 --> 01:55:46,920
Speaker 1: a long sword all the way through my chest, right

2264
01:55:47,000 --> 01:55:49,600
Speaker 1: next to my heart, sticking out the other end, which

2265
01:55:49,640 --> 01:55:51,560
Speaker 1: I went to the hospital with. I was afraid to

2266
01:55:51,640 --> 01:55:53,720
Speaker 1: take it out, but anyway, at that time, I pulled

2267
01:55:53,720 --> 01:55:56,080
Speaker 1: out my pistol and started shooting. I killed the person

2268
01:55:56,160 --> 01:55:59,240
Speaker 1: to my right, And I got to say, based on

2269
01:55:59,320 --> 01:56:03,000
Speaker 1: the physical eleven, I think Lind's account is the real

2270
01:56:03,080 --> 01:56:06,160
Speaker 1: one of what happens here. I think they ambush him

2271
01:56:06,200 --> 01:56:08,920
Speaker 1: and stab him repeatedly, and he shoots and kills one

2272
01:56:08,960 --> 01:56:14,280
Speaker 1: in self defense obvious, Like, again, he has a samurai

2273
01:56:14,400 --> 01:56:16,200
Speaker 1: sword entirely through his bed.

2274
01:56:16,320 --> 01:56:20,680
Speaker 2: We acknowledge that this meant took fifty to the chest. Yeah,

2275
01:56:22,160 --> 01:56:23,480
Speaker 2: they don't make them like that anymore.

2276
01:56:24,120 --> 01:56:26,400
Speaker 1: And it's one of those one of the like doubting

2277
01:56:26,520 --> 01:56:28,640
Speaker 1: claims by the Zizians is that, like, he couldn't have

2278
01:56:28,760 --> 01:56:31,240
Speaker 1: survived being stabbed this many times. People survive getting stabbed

2279
01:56:31,240 --> 01:56:33,560
Speaker 1: a crazy amount of times all the time. It's all like,

2280
01:56:33,720 --> 01:56:35,840
Speaker 1: if you read about enough stabbing accounts, you will read

2281
01:56:35,840 --> 01:56:38,120
Speaker 1: about people who die because they get stabbed once, and

2282
01:56:38,160 --> 01:56:39,880
Speaker 1: you will read about people who live through getting like

2283
01:56:40,040 --> 01:56:45,200
Speaker 1: seventy stab wounds. It's nuts. Stabbings are very hard to predict.

2284
01:56:45,720 --> 01:56:49,440
Speaker 2: Tricky, tricky, Yeah, And also it's also so worrisome because

2285
01:56:49,520 --> 01:56:51,680
Speaker 2: now they've done it, right, they've crossed that line.

2286
01:56:51,840 --> 01:56:54,200
Speaker 1: They've crossed that line, and one of them has died.

2287
01:56:54,640 --> 01:56:57,360
Speaker 2: Right. Yes, some steaks are as high as they had

2288
01:56:57,400 --> 01:56:58,800
Speaker 2: always thought that they were.

2289
01:56:59,440 --> 01:57:02,360
Speaker 1: And when the box trucks are cleaned out after they

2290
01:57:02,440 --> 01:57:05,200
Speaker 1: get arrested the ones who had carried out the attack,

2291
01:57:05,280 --> 01:57:07,680
Speaker 1: because Ziz is on the property, and I think Ginn

2292
01:57:07,760 --> 01:57:09,560
Speaker 1: is too still at this point, but Ziz does not

2293
01:57:09,880 --> 01:57:13,800
Speaker 1: participate in the attack, and like cops recognize Ziz and

2294
01:57:13,960 --> 01:57:16,280
Speaker 1: know that she's faking her death and don't arrest her,

2295
01:57:16,480 --> 01:57:17,840
Speaker 1: which is one of like the weird.

2296
01:57:17,640 --> 01:57:20,760
Speaker 2: Things, like they're familiar enough to know that.

2297
01:57:21,080 --> 01:57:23,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think this is that because like they've been

2298
01:57:23,640 --> 01:57:27,400
Speaker 1: called before these people. Yeah, I think that they're aware

2299
01:57:27,480 --> 01:57:29,800
Speaker 1: of who she is, but just don't do even after

2300
01:57:29,920 --> 01:57:34,360
Speaker 1: this mass stabbing shooting. Like again, the cops just don't

2301
01:57:34,400 --> 01:57:38,880
Speaker 1: do their jobs. Also, as part of this story, you know,

2302
01:57:39,080 --> 01:57:43,480
Speaker 1: it's a It's also worth noting that when they this

2303
01:57:43,680 --> 01:57:45,960
Speaker 1: after this arrest, when like their box trucks are being

2304
01:57:46,000 --> 01:57:49,600
Speaker 1: cleaned out, they find tubes of containers of lie, which

2305
01:57:50,080 --> 01:57:53,360
Speaker 1: you know, Ziz had talked to Jamie about dissolving bodies

2306
01:57:53,440 --> 01:57:56,680
Speaker 1: and lie. That's probably what the plan was with Curtis.

2307
01:57:57,160 --> 01:58:00,120
Speaker 1: My guess is that's certainly what Curtis gets convinced of.

2308
01:58:00,680 --> 01:58:04,120
Speaker 1: Now my thinking and I can't this is not proven.

2309
01:58:04,240 --> 01:58:07,080
Speaker 1: I'm sure courts will try, will see how well they

2310
01:58:07,120 --> 01:58:09,040
Speaker 1: are able to do this in a court. My suspicion

2311
01:58:09,120 --> 01:58:13,160
Speaker 1: is that Ziz orchestrated this attack and convinced her friends

2312
01:58:13,240 --> 01:58:15,880
Speaker 1: to do it, or convinced them to convince themselves to

2313
01:58:15,960 --> 01:58:18,840
Speaker 1: do it and justified it using the same escalatory logic

2314
01:58:18,920 --> 01:58:22,560
Speaker 1: that they used on everything else. On her blog, when

2315
01:58:22,600 --> 01:58:25,960
Speaker 1: discussing theoretical acts of deadly violence, Ziz referred to what

2316
01:58:26,120 --> 01:58:29,880
Speaker 1: she called Quirrel's algorithm from the Harry Potter Rationalist fan

2317
01:58:29,960 --> 01:58:32,640
Speaker 1: pick that these people all love, and she quoted this

2318
01:58:32,800 --> 01:58:35,120
Speaker 1: line from the book describing the mental state she believed

2319
01:58:35,200 --> 01:58:38,880
Speaker 1: was necessary to survive a life threatening situation, intent to kill.

2320
01:58:39,040 --> 01:58:41,640
Speaker 1: Think purely of killing, grasp at any means to do so.

2321
01:58:41,920 --> 01:58:47,400
Speaker 1: Sensors off, do not flinch. Kill again. This Harry Potter book.

2322
01:58:47,280 --> 01:58:49,760
Speaker 2: Really go all the way back to that.

2323
01:58:50,440 --> 01:58:53,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, be careful what you write, authors. You might get

2324
01:58:53,240 --> 01:58:59,280
Speaker 1: someone st impaled by a samurai. Sort of course they have.

2325
01:59:00,080 --> 01:59:01,960
Speaker 1: Of course they had a samurai's sword. I'm sure they

2326
01:59:02,000 --> 01:59:06,760
Speaker 1: bought them all from the Budka catalog. So Ziz had

2327
01:59:06,800 --> 01:59:08,800
Speaker 1: also written in late twenty twenty one in a comment

2328
01:59:08,880 --> 01:59:11,320
Speaker 1: on her blog, I get so many people lining up

2329
01:59:11,360 --> 01:59:14,320
Speaker 1: to commit suicide by Ziz, and then she hyperlinks to

2330
01:59:14,360 --> 01:59:17,280
Speaker 1: the wiki for suicide by cop and her meaning is

2331
01:59:17,360 --> 01:59:19,680
Speaker 1: that anyone acting in a way to like harm her

2332
01:59:19,920 --> 01:59:23,080
Speaker 1: or her goals is killing themselves because she has to

2333
01:59:23,200 --> 01:59:27,320
Speaker 1: kill them now. Right, and there's a good medium post

2334
01:59:27,400 --> 01:59:30,160
Speaker 1: by someone named Sepha Shapiro that traces around how this time,

2335
01:59:30,400 --> 01:59:33,160
Speaker 1: how around this time, this is online writing becomes increasingly

2336
01:59:33,200 --> 01:59:37,000
Speaker 1: obsessed with the idea of using deadly violence to make

2337
01:59:37,080 --> 01:59:40,720
Speaker 1: oneself less vulnerable. Right that you again, you have to

2338
01:59:40,920 --> 01:59:43,680
Speaker 1: always be ready to kill in order to protect yourself.

2339
01:59:45,240 --> 01:59:48,440
Speaker 1: So the police arrest two of her friends, Somni and

2340
01:59:48,600 --> 01:59:51,200
Speaker 1: Suri dw who are the two surviving Zizians who'd taken

2341
01:59:51,240 --> 01:59:53,280
Speaker 1: part in the attack, and they take them to jail.

2342
01:59:53,680 --> 01:59:56,160
Speaker 1: Per a California law, these two are not just charged

2343
01:59:56,160 --> 01:59:58,040
Speaker 1: with trying to kill Curtis, but with the murder of

2344
01:59:58,080 --> 02:00:00,480
Speaker 1: their friend Emma. It's like, if you know, three people

2345
02:00:00,560 --> 02:00:03,640
Speaker 1: rob a liquor store and one of them kills someone,

2346
02:00:03,720 --> 02:00:06,000
Speaker 1: the other two will get charged with murder because someone

2347
02:00:06,080 --> 02:00:07,400
Speaker 1: died in the commission of a crime that they were

2348
02:00:07,440 --> 02:00:09,880
Speaker 1: involved in. Right, it's California state law. A lot of

2349
02:00:09,920 --> 02:00:12,760
Speaker 1: people get life sentences as a result of this, usually

2350
02:00:12,880 --> 02:00:14,680
Speaker 1: not in this exact scenario, but.

2351
02:00:17,400 --> 02:00:17,840
Speaker 2: Usually not.

2352
02:00:21,000 --> 02:00:24,360
Speaker 1: Soomny was placed in a men's jail and complained now

2353
02:00:24,600 --> 02:00:27,320
Speaker 1: after being assigned to a women's jail, demanded a men's

2354
02:00:27,440 --> 02:00:30,640
Speaker 1: jail I think this is because they were trying to

2355
02:00:30,840 --> 02:00:33,160
Speaker 1: like make a case that they weren't in their right mind.

2356
02:00:33,240 --> 02:00:35,760
Speaker 1: But it's kind of unclear to me exactly why this happens.

2357
02:00:35,960 --> 02:00:38,320
Speaker 1: There's a lot in terms of these two and their

2358
02:00:38,360 --> 02:00:41,680
Speaker 1: interactions with the court system that I'm not gonna get into, right,

2359
02:00:43,440 --> 02:00:47,840
Speaker 1: because it's just we simply can't go down all of

2360
02:00:47,880 --> 02:00:49,880
Speaker 1: those rabbit holes. But you should know that the like

2361
02:00:50,120 --> 02:00:53,600
Speaker 1: this is a factor, and everyone's thinking is like their

2362
02:00:53,640 --> 02:00:56,680
Speaker 1: two friends are in prison, they're constantly sending these letters

2363
02:00:56,760 --> 02:00:59,520
Speaker 1: to the judge. They're like making these like weird rationalist

2364
02:00:59,640 --> 02:01:02,400
Speaker 1: arguments in their court cases, and like that's all going down,

2365
02:01:02,760 --> 02:01:05,480
Speaker 1: while Zizz and the remainder of her inner circle kind

2366
02:01:05,520 --> 02:01:08,600
Speaker 1: of go on the run, right because you know, now

2367
02:01:08,640 --> 02:01:12,320
Speaker 1: they've been involved in a murder. Right, Gwynn seems to

2368
02:01:12,520 --> 02:01:15,520
Speaker 1: go go fully into hiding at this time. I don't

2369
02:01:15,560 --> 02:01:17,960
Speaker 1: know if that's because of the murder or just because

2370
02:01:18,120 --> 02:01:20,080
Speaker 1: she had finally had enough of Ziz and all of

2371
02:01:20,120 --> 02:01:22,600
Speaker 1: her talk about killing, but in any case, she goes

2372
02:01:22,640 --> 02:01:25,960
Speaker 1: to ground around this point. Now, well, all this is

2373
02:01:26,040 --> 02:01:28,080
Speaker 1: going on, I hate to keep bringing in new people,

2374
02:01:28,240 --> 02:01:32,879
Speaker 1: but there's a bunch of them. Jamie up in Vermont.

2375
02:01:33,040 --> 02:01:36,800
Speaker 1: I don't think is continuing to seeing Alice Monday anymore.

2376
02:01:36,880 --> 02:01:39,200
Speaker 1: Alice seems to have also made the wise decision to

2377
02:01:39,320 --> 02:01:42,520
Speaker 1: fucking bounce and go to ground. Jamie is living with

2378
02:01:42,760 --> 02:01:46,360
Speaker 1: another Ziz follower named Daniel Blank up in Vermont at

2379
02:01:46,360 --> 02:01:50,360
Speaker 1: this point, and Jamie has gotten increasingly into Ziz's ideas.

2380
02:01:51,120 --> 02:01:53,360
Speaker 1: Blank is one of the people we know. He delivers

2381
02:01:53,400 --> 02:01:56,840
Speaker 1: several documents to the court on Soomny's behalf during this

2382
02:01:56,920 --> 02:01:59,440
Speaker 1: whole like after they go get charged with murder, and

2383
02:01:59,520 --> 02:02:01,240
Speaker 1: he is like a guy who has like a job

2384
02:02:01,560 --> 02:02:03,840
Speaker 1: and you know, stuff going on in his life. And

2385
02:02:03,960 --> 02:02:07,520
Speaker 1: then like a month after this shooting stabbing, he drops

2386
02:02:07,560 --> 02:02:09,720
Speaker 1: out of society, cuts ties with his family, and quits

2387
02:02:09,800 --> 02:02:13,520
Speaker 1: his job to go live with Jamie, And like it's

2388
02:02:13,600 --> 02:02:16,720
Speaker 1: kind of a little unclear of exactly what's happening, but

2389
02:02:17,080 --> 02:02:21,560
Speaker 1: my belief is basically Jamie and the people who are

2390
02:02:21,560 --> 02:02:23,800
Speaker 1: around here, who are up in Vermont to ores Zizians,

2391
02:02:24,440 --> 02:02:27,280
Speaker 1: are being before Ziz gets there, told to prepare for

2392
02:02:27,480 --> 02:02:29,920
Speaker 1: Ziz because they want to get access to money and

2393
02:02:30,040 --> 02:02:33,640
Speaker 1: a private property, a compound right where they can both

2394
02:02:33,720 --> 02:02:35,720
Speaker 1: not be on the run, have a living space and

2395
02:02:35,800 --> 02:02:38,440
Speaker 1: continue to work on their ideas. That is what I

2396
02:02:38,600 --> 02:02:41,320
Speaker 1: think is happening. And Daniel blank is someone who has

2397
02:02:41,400 --> 02:02:44,520
Speaker 1: been following Ziz online, gets convinced to drop out of

2398
02:02:44,560 --> 02:02:47,720
Speaker 1: his life, cut ties with everybody, move in with this

2399
02:02:47,880 --> 02:02:51,240
Speaker 1: person Jamie, and it looks like they're kind of working

2400
02:02:51,360 --> 02:02:54,240
Speaker 1: to like ready a situation for Ziz and the Zizzians

2401
02:02:54,280 --> 02:02:58,640
Speaker 1: in Vermont. And again there's a lot of this that

2402
02:02:58,760 --> 02:03:01,040
Speaker 1: has not been litigated yet. But what we know is

2403
02:03:01,120 --> 02:03:04,520
Speaker 1: that on December thirty first, twenty twenty two, Jamie z

2404
02:03:04,520 --> 02:03:07,640
Speaker 1: Ashco's parents, who were seventy two and sixty nine, respectively,

2405
02:03:07,960 --> 02:03:09,280
Speaker 1: are murdered in their home.

2406
02:03:09,680 --> 02:03:12,240
Speaker 2: Oh my god, we don't have the property of Vermont.

2407
02:03:12,840 --> 02:03:14,560
Speaker 1: They know they live in a separate state. They live

2408
02:03:14,600 --> 02:03:18,720
Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania, right, Okay, But we don't know who committed

2409
02:03:18,760 --> 02:03:20,960
Speaker 1: this murder. No one has yet been charged for it.

2410
02:03:21,440 --> 02:03:23,440
Speaker 1: Unlike in the Lend stabbing, we do not have an

2411
02:03:23,480 --> 02:03:26,320
Speaker 1: obvious explanation. There is a ring video that shows an

2412
02:03:26,360 --> 02:03:29,840
Speaker 1: unknown vehicle pulling into the driveway, followed by screams. Some

2413
02:03:30,080 --> 02:03:33,480
Speaker 1: investigators think they hear someone yell mom before another person

2414
02:03:33,560 --> 02:03:36,120
Speaker 1: yells oh my god, Oh my god. But other people

2415
02:03:36,160 --> 02:03:38,400
Speaker 1: who have viewed the recording, say it's unclear if that

2416
02:03:38,480 --> 02:03:41,160
Speaker 1: first word is mom. I have not seen this recording,

2417
02:03:41,280 --> 02:03:45,720
Speaker 1: so I can't tell you what's accurate. But Zashko's parents

2418
02:03:46,040 --> 02:03:49,160
Speaker 1: were worth several million dollars and had a sizeable estate

2419
02:03:49,280 --> 02:03:50,600
Speaker 1: to inherent Yeah, you.

2420
02:03:50,640 --> 02:03:52,880
Speaker 2: Said that she had bought the property initially off of

2421
02:03:52,920 --> 02:03:53,480
Speaker 2: family money.

2422
02:03:53,560 --> 02:03:56,000
Speaker 1: Right, she's got some amount of access to it, right,

2423
02:03:56,440 --> 02:04:00,520
Speaker 1: and her last right before these people are murdered. Jamie's

2424
02:04:00,560 --> 02:04:04,040
Speaker 1: mom messages with Jamie earlier that same day about savings

2425
02:04:04,120 --> 02:04:07,720
Speaker 1: bonds that Zashko is due to receive. In blog posts

2426
02:04:07,760 --> 02:04:10,280
Speaker 1: from twenty twenty one, Zashco had written about her parents

2427
02:04:10,320 --> 02:04:14,040
Speaker 1: and repeatedly accused them of being abusers. One specific accusation

2428
02:04:14,160 --> 02:04:16,360
Speaker 1: she makes is that they snuck meat into her food

2429
02:04:16,480 --> 02:04:18,360
Speaker 1: and forced her to eat it after she expressed a

2430
02:04:18,400 --> 02:04:21,919
Speaker 1: desire to go vegan. So she has talked extensively online

2431
02:04:22,000 --> 02:04:25,960
Speaker 1: about her parents being fundamentally evil people. We know that

2432
02:04:26,320 --> 02:04:29,040
Speaker 1: at this point she lives with Daniel Blank and that

2433
02:04:29,520 --> 02:04:32,920
Speaker 1: their phones go dark right around the time of the murder,

2434
02:04:33,000 --> 02:04:35,480
Speaker 1: as if they had placed them in a faraday bag.

2435
02:04:35,640 --> 02:04:38,760
Speaker 1: Basically okay, right, but we don't know where they are

2436
02:04:38,920 --> 02:04:41,600
Speaker 1: on the day of the murder. Police visit them in

2437
02:04:41,760 --> 02:04:45,280
Speaker 1: Vermont shortly after the murder because obviously the daughter is

2438
02:04:45,320 --> 02:04:47,080
Speaker 1: someone that you're going to think of as a potential

2439
02:04:47,240 --> 02:04:49,240
Speaker 1: like because one of the things about the murder is

2440
02:04:49,280 --> 02:04:52,160
Speaker 1: that whoever did it had some degree of knowledge of

2441
02:04:52,200 --> 02:04:54,320
Speaker 1: the property and an ability to get on it without

2442
02:04:54,360 --> 02:04:57,000
Speaker 1: forcing an entry. Right, So obviously the cops they're going

2443
02:04:57,080 --> 02:04:59,920
Speaker 1: to think, who's the next of Ken, Right, So police

2444
02:05:00,520 --> 02:05:03,320
Speaker 1: visit them on their property in Vermont and talk to

2445
02:05:03,560 --> 02:05:06,440
Speaker 1: Blank and Jamie. Jamie, they ask if she has a gun.

2446
02:05:06,520 --> 02:05:08,720
Speaker 1: Jamie says yes, and she shows them a handgun that

2447
02:05:08,840 --> 02:05:10,720
Speaker 1: she owns that is the same caliber as the one

2448
02:05:10,800 --> 02:05:12,840
Speaker 1: used in the shootings. Now that doesn't necessarily mean much.

2449
02:05:12,840 --> 02:05:16,520
Speaker 1: It's a nine milimeter ton of nine mills, right. There's

2450
02:05:16,640 --> 02:05:18,400
Speaker 1: one thing the cops will point out is that Zasco

2451
02:05:18,600 --> 02:05:21,480
Speaker 1: owned the same type of bullet, the same makeup bullet

2452
02:05:21,520 --> 02:05:22,640
Speaker 1: as those used in the shooting.

2453
02:05:22,960 --> 02:05:24,400
Speaker 2: But again, like.

2454
02:05:25,880 --> 02:05:29,000
Speaker 1: The bullets I use keeping my carry gun are hydra shocks,

2455
02:05:29,000 --> 02:05:31,000
Speaker 1: which is like what cops can because that's the safest

2456
02:05:31,040 --> 02:05:32,600
Speaker 1: thing in court. If you're in a defensive shooting, you

2457
02:05:32,680 --> 02:05:34,560
Speaker 1: want to be like, I have the same bullets the

2458
02:05:34,640 --> 02:05:36,880
Speaker 1: cops have, right, because some mechanic you don't want to have,

2459
02:05:37,080 --> 02:05:40,160
Speaker 1: like the the man shredder, zombie rounds or some shit.

2460
02:05:40,520 --> 02:05:43,520
Speaker 1: So the fact that like a common defensive caliber would

2461
02:05:43,640 --> 02:05:45,320
Speaker 1: murder these people was in the gun. That's not a

2462
02:05:45,400 --> 02:05:47,720
Speaker 1: smoking gun, if you'll forgive it. But it also is

2463
02:05:47,840 --> 02:05:50,640
Speaker 1: like that's not nothing either, right, you know, like that's

2464
02:05:50,680 --> 02:05:57,760
Speaker 1: not nothing, right. What means more is that Jamie is

2465
02:05:57,840 --> 02:06:01,360
Speaker 1: now the full beneficiary of her parents' estate, and while

2466
02:06:01,360 --> 02:06:03,880
Speaker 1: she has not been charged, an attorney for Pennsylvania has

2467
02:06:03,960 --> 02:06:07,680
Speaker 1: filed a potential slayer statute issue, which is a law

2468
02:06:07,760 --> 02:06:10,280
Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania that you can't inherit someone's stuff if you

2469
02:06:10,440 --> 02:06:14,560
Speaker 1: kill them, right, But again, they haven't been charged. There's

2470
02:06:14,600 --> 02:06:17,440
Speaker 1: a lot of suspicious shit about this. She also lies

2471
02:06:17,520 --> 02:06:20,040
Speaker 1: to a relatives claiming she couldn't have driven to Pennsylvania

2472
02:06:20,040 --> 02:06:22,160
Speaker 1: from Vermont because you didn't have a working car, and

2473
02:06:22,320 --> 02:06:24,040
Speaker 1: we know she did, so.

2474
02:06:25,840 --> 02:06:29,920
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, it's it's very suspicious over here.

2475
02:06:30,400 --> 02:06:35,120
Speaker 1: I don't think it's unlikely that she may have been

2476
02:06:35,560 --> 02:06:38,320
Speaker 1: basically tasked with killing her parents to get access to

2477
02:06:38,400 --> 02:06:40,760
Speaker 1: her money for the cause, their money for the cause, right,

2478
02:06:41,000 --> 02:06:44,560
Speaker 1: that's kind of my suspicion, you know, and she was

2479
02:06:44,640 --> 02:06:47,880
Speaker 1: partly told it was okay because they're abusive, and so like,

2480
02:06:48,320 --> 02:06:51,200
Speaker 1: you maybe have to do this in order to protect

2481
02:06:51,240 --> 02:06:53,960
Speaker 1: yourself and other people from abusers, which is a kind

2482
02:06:54,000 --> 02:06:57,880
Speaker 1: of logic they have too. On January thirteenth, right after midnight,

2483
02:06:57,920 --> 02:07:01,280
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania State troopers rade a hotel the Philadelphia Airport where

2484
02:07:01,280 --> 02:07:04,360
Speaker 1: Blank and Zashco are staying. A Vermont judge had issued

2485
02:07:04,360 --> 02:07:06,720
Speaker 1: a warrant for their home. The police had not found

2486
02:07:06,760 --> 02:07:09,320
Speaker 1: the gun they believed was the murder weapon. They touched

2487
02:07:09,360 --> 02:07:11,040
Speaker 1: that weapon when they're in Vermont, but they don't have

2488
02:07:11,040 --> 02:07:13,480
Speaker 1: a warrant for it, right, so they don't get to

2489
02:07:13,560 --> 02:07:17,760
Speaker 1: take it. Zashko was detained and the only one and

2490
02:07:17,840 --> 02:07:19,760
Speaker 1: would have been the only one detained if she hadn't

2491
02:07:19,800 --> 02:07:22,720
Speaker 1: shouted to hotel staff as they're taking her away, tell

2492
02:07:22,920 --> 02:07:25,960
Speaker 1: Daniel in room one a Leffheim being arrested, so that

2493
02:07:27,200 --> 02:07:36,040
Speaker 1: damn smooth, smooth. These rationalists and they're brilliant crimes obviously

2494
02:07:36,200 --> 02:07:39,120
Speaker 1: get interested in this, and they recognize Daniel's name, and

2495
02:07:39,200 --> 02:07:42,040
Speaker 1: they find on surveillance footage that she has handed a

2496
02:07:42,160 --> 02:07:44,600
Speaker 1: bag to him outside of his room in the night

2497
02:07:44,680 --> 02:07:48,040
Speaker 1: before right, and they recognize his name because they visited

2498
02:07:48,160 --> 02:07:50,760
Speaker 1: Zashkoh and Blank and the Vermont home. So they get

2499
02:07:50,800 --> 02:07:52,640
Speaker 1: a warrant for his hotel room and rate it. Like

2500
02:07:52,840 --> 02:07:55,400
Speaker 1: an hour or two later, Blank is found in the

2501
02:07:55,520 --> 02:07:59,160
Speaker 1: bathroom next to a blonde person dressed in black. This

2502
02:07:59,400 --> 02:08:01,920
Speaker 1: is Zizz, so oh.

2503
02:08:03,800 --> 02:08:04,840
Speaker 2: Right, yeah.

2504
02:08:06,080 --> 02:08:09,280
Speaker 1: An article by the San Francisco Chronicle explains what happened next.

2505
02:08:09,760 --> 02:08:11,760
Speaker 1: Blank put his hands behind his back and walked out

2506
02:08:11,760 --> 02:08:14,160
Speaker 1: of the room, obeying police commands. But Ziz did not

2507
02:08:14,240 --> 02:08:16,240
Speaker 1: do any of that. He had his eyes closed. A

2508
02:08:16,280 --> 02:08:19,240
Speaker 1: trooper testified, using masculine pronouns. He would not speak. He

2509
02:08:19,360 --> 02:08:21,320
Speaker 1: was just laying almost unconscious or as if he was

2510
02:08:21,360 --> 02:08:23,880
Speaker 1: dead on the ground. He had to be carried out again.

2511
02:08:24,600 --> 02:08:27,480
Speaker 1: This is I don't know if it's intentional or if

2512
02:08:27,560 --> 02:08:30,920
Speaker 1: Ziz was like acting and like portraying themselves as masculine

2513
02:08:30,920 --> 02:08:32,680
Speaker 1: because they're on the run. You know, at this point

2514
02:08:32,680 --> 02:08:36,440
Speaker 1: in time, that's not actually clear to me. Whatever the case,

2515
02:08:36,640 --> 02:08:39,839
Speaker 1: Ziz is taken into custody and charged with disorderly conduct

2516
02:08:39,880 --> 02:08:43,839
Speaker 1: and interfering with a police investigation. A nine millimeter handgun

2517
02:08:44,040 --> 02:08:47,040
Speaker 1: was found in the room, along with ammo forty thousand

2518
02:08:47,080 --> 02:08:50,400
Speaker 1: dollars in cash is found in Zashco Subaru, and again

2519
02:08:50,680 --> 02:08:53,600
Speaker 1: she doesn't get charged with murder. They let her out

2520
02:08:54,040 --> 02:08:58,120
Speaker 1: very soon and she just leaves. The cops are shot

2521
02:08:58,120 --> 02:09:00,480
Speaker 1: because sheet they have to give her back car and

2522
02:09:00,560 --> 02:09:04,120
Speaker 1: the forty grand which she abandons. She and Blake just

2523
02:09:04,240 --> 02:09:09,240
Speaker 1: leave the car and forty thousand dollars in cash. I

2524
02:09:09,280 --> 02:09:11,920
Speaker 1: don't think they're making good decisions at this point, is

2525
02:09:12,000 --> 02:09:16,920
Speaker 1: my only explanation for you, David. How Maybe it's that

2526
02:09:17,040 --> 02:09:19,800
Speaker 1: they're thinking, like, well, they put a tracker in the money,

2527
02:09:19,840 --> 02:09:22,080
Speaker 1: they'll track the car. It's not safe to have any

2528
02:09:22,120 --> 02:09:24,520
Speaker 1: of it. I don't know why they're making this decision,

2529
02:09:24,600 --> 02:09:26,160
Speaker 1: but it's very weird right.

2530
02:09:27,680 --> 02:09:27,840
Speaker 2: Now.

2531
02:09:29,120 --> 02:09:32,760
Speaker 1: During this same time, several other Zisians are at least

2532
02:09:32,840 --> 02:09:34,640
Speaker 1: suspected to have been coming in and out of like

2533
02:09:34,720 --> 02:09:37,839
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania during the area around the murder. It is unclear

2534
02:09:37,920 --> 02:09:40,840
Speaker 1: how many people if they were. If the Zizians killed

2535
02:09:41,080 --> 02:09:43,840
Speaker 1: this husband and wife, it's unclear how many of them

2536
02:09:43,920 --> 02:09:47,080
Speaker 1: were there, and again no one has been charged. But

2537
02:09:47,200 --> 02:09:50,480
Speaker 1: it's at this point that another Zizian enters the playing field.

2538
02:09:51,320 --> 02:09:54,160
Speaker 1: This person goes by the name Ophelia. They are a

2539
02:09:54,320 --> 02:09:58,720
Speaker 1: German citizen. They have like a legal residency in the US.

2540
02:09:58,840 --> 02:10:00,920
Speaker 1: Their last name is Bachhol. They used to work at

2541
02:10:01,040 --> 02:10:03,880
Speaker 1: James Street or Jane Street, which is where Sam Bankman

2542
02:10:03,960 --> 02:10:07,480
Speaker 1: Freed work. They're a quant trader, right, So this is

2543
02:10:07,520 --> 02:10:10,080
Speaker 1: someone functioning at a high level of the finance industry

2544
02:10:10,320 --> 02:10:13,160
Speaker 1: who like drops out of their career and life to

2545
02:10:13,280 --> 02:10:16,760
Speaker 1: go to Vermont hours like really like they fly in

2546
02:10:17,000 --> 02:10:18,200
Speaker 1: like right before the murders.

2547
02:10:19,360 --> 02:10:22,320
Speaker 2: That's such a troubling theme about this whole thing about

2548
02:10:22,360 --> 02:10:25,320
Speaker 2: how many of these people really do integrate in a

2549
02:10:25,400 --> 02:10:28,320
Speaker 2: major way. Like it's not just like fringe people.

2550
02:10:28,680 --> 02:10:31,839
Speaker 1: No, these are people who are successful in their other lives,

2551
02:10:32,080 --> 02:10:34,840
Speaker 1: but they're lacking. I think a lot of this is

2552
02:10:34,920 --> 02:10:38,040
Speaker 1: just that desperation that is also core to like fascism's

2553
02:10:38,040 --> 02:10:41,720
Speaker 1: appeal to feel like a sense of heroism, like I

2554
02:10:41,800 --> 02:10:45,680
Speaker 1: am part of a heroic struggle. People are very vulnerable

2555
02:10:45,760 --> 02:10:48,120
Speaker 1: to that. And even if if you're making the money,

2556
02:10:48,160 --> 02:10:50,400
Speaker 1: if you're succeeding at a tech company or in finance,

2557
02:10:50,600 --> 02:10:52,640
Speaker 1: but it all feels empty to you because it kind

2558
02:10:52,680 --> 02:10:56,280
Speaker 1: of is if someone's like you can save the cosmos, Yeah,

2559
02:10:56,680 --> 02:10:59,520
Speaker 1: maybe you'll give up your whole life in order to

2560
02:10:59,600 --> 02:11:05,560
Speaker 1: do that, right. Yeah, So Blank and zashcoh are released

2561
02:11:05,600 --> 02:11:07,120
Speaker 1: in short order. As I said, they get out of

2562
02:11:07,160 --> 02:11:10,160
Speaker 1: jail quickly, but Zizz stays in custody for a while.

2563
02:11:10,280 --> 02:11:13,040
Speaker 1: And Baylis said I think at fifty thousand initially, are

2564
02:11:13,040 --> 02:11:15,920
Speaker 1: they aware of the fake death and everything it does? Yes,

2565
02:11:16,400 --> 02:11:19,640
Speaker 1: they are where she has faked her death. California shows

2566
02:11:19,680 --> 02:11:22,640
Speaker 1: no interest in sending police app to get her, which

2567
02:11:22,760 --> 02:11:28,240
Speaker 1: is like, it is a crime. This is the bayl

2568
02:11:28,280 --> 02:11:31,800
Speaker 1: is set very high for two misdemeanors, and police justify

2569
02:11:31,880 --> 02:11:33,840
Speaker 1: it in like the court documents by saying Ziz had

2570
02:11:33,880 --> 02:11:37,040
Speaker 1: recklessly created a dangerous situation by making the police move

2571
02:11:37,120 --> 02:11:40,760
Speaker 1: her per that argument, that article and wired quote. Behind

2572
02:11:40,800 --> 02:11:43,520
Speaker 1: these arguments and even the charges themselves lay a deeper motive.

2573
02:11:43,800 --> 02:11:47,000
Speaker 1: Unable to charge for the Zasco murders, but suspecting that Lesoda,

2574
02:11:47,080 --> 02:11:50,600
Speaker 1: Michelle Zashko, that's Jamie and Danielle b and Daniel Blank

2575
02:11:50,600 --> 02:11:53,240
Speaker 1: could be tied to them. Prosecutors were trying desperately to

2576
02:11:53,320 --> 02:11:56,720
Speaker 1: hold Lesto while the police gathered evidence. Obviously you realize

2577
02:11:56,760 --> 02:11:58,520
Speaker 1: we don't give a shit about this case. One local

2578
02:11:58,560 --> 02:12:00,840
Speaker 1: official familiar with it told me what they were interested

2579
02:12:00,880 --> 02:12:03,839
Speaker 1: in was Lesoda's involvement in the homicide. So the authorities

2580
02:12:03,880 --> 02:12:07,080
Speaker 1: here have recognized this is all centered around this person,

2581
02:12:07,720 --> 02:12:12,040
Speaker 1: but it's very difficult for us to hold them legally

2582
02:12:12,160 --> 02:12:15,320
Speaker 1: responsible at this stage. We can't even arrest anyone for

2583
02:12:15,400 --> 02:12:18,680
Speaker 1: the murder yet we don't have enough. And you know

2584
02:12:18,840 --> 02:12:22,480
Speaker 1: it's I'm not gonna again pretend to know precisely what happened,

2585
02:12:22,600 --> 02:12:26,760
Speaker 1: but I think it's pretty clear Zizz probably gave the

2586
02:12:27,000 --> 02:12:31,360
Speaker 1: order to do this killing or everyone using her logic

2587
02:12:31,440 --> 02:12:33,640
Speaker 1: talk themselves into well, this is the only way to

2588
02:12:33,920 --> 02:12:37,440
Speaker 1: further our crucially important work. Is we need the money

2589
02:12:37,480 --> 02:12:42,120
Speaker 1: that these abusers are selfishly keeping to themselves. Jay or

2590
02:12:42,320 --> 02:12:44,880
Speaker 1: Zizz's bail is eventually reduced. She winds up in the

2591
02:12:44,960 --> 02:12:47,880
Speaker 1: wind immediately, like the authorities are like, she's got to

2592
02:12:47,960 --> 02:12:51,440
Speaker 1: immediately bounce and will lose her And that's exactly what happens.

2593
02:12:52,920 --> 02:12:56,080
Speaker 1: Zashkoh and Blank. It's kind of unclear exactly what they

2594
02:12:56,160 --> 02:12:59,240
Speaker 1: do initially after this, but we know Jamie reaches out

2595
02:12:59,240 --> 02:13:01,880
Speaker 1: to her aunt begs for help, and her aunt is like,

2596
02:13:02,080 --> 02:13:07,680
Speaker 1: did you kill my sister? And Jamie says no and

2597
02:13:07,840 --> 02:13:10,760
Speaker 1: blames the murders on less wrong, which is a lizer's

2598
02:13:10,920 --> 02:13:14,520
Speaker 1: like blog, so she's blaming the rationalist community. She claims

2599
02:13:14,560 --> 02:13:18,080
Speaker 1: that she's being targeted and that like Seafar had commit

2600
02:13:18,240 --> 02:13:22,480
Speaker 1: murdered her parents to like basically make Ziz look bad.

2601
02:13:23,760 --> 02:13:26,600
Speaker 1: A year or so goes by, right, Ziz misses a

2602
02:13:26,680 --> 02:13:29,240
Speaker 1: court date, she never shows back up. We really don't

2603
02:13:29,280 --> 02:13:31,320
Speaker 1: know what the fuck these people are doing for most

2604
02:13:31,360 --> 02:13:34,240
Speaker 1: of this period. In February of twenty twenty three.

2605
02:13:34,200 --> 02:13:35,560
Speaker 2: She's no longer blogging either.

2606
02:13:36,120 --> 02:13:38,920
Speaker 1: She's not no no, no, no, no no, but she's

2607
02:13:38,920 --> 02:13:39,840
Speaker 1: still said she had stopped.

2608
02:13:39,920 --> 02:13:41,240
Speaker 2: She was just responding to people.

2609
02:13:41,560 --> 02:13:44,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and she is communicating with people still, but I

2610
02:13:44,880 --> 02:13:49,080
Speaker 1: think it's primarily through more like direct means. In February

2611
02:13:49,120 --> 02:13:51,560
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty three, a community alert is posted by

2612
02:13:51,640 --> 02:13:54,360
Speaker 1: someone named Sepha Shapiro. It warns that quote over the

2613
02:13:54,400 --> 02:13:56,920
Speaker 1: past few years, Ziz has repeatedly called for the deaths

2614
02:13:56,960 --> 02:14:00,040
Speaker 1: of many different classes of people, and this this the

2615
02:14:00,080 --> 02:14:01,800
Speaker 1: post lays out a lot of what I've described in

2616
02:14:01,840 --> 02:14:05,440
Speaker 1: these episodes, but there's still no public awareness of the Zizians.

2617
02:14:05,560 --> 02:14:08,720
Speaker 1: Everything happening here is so weird. The circumstances around them,

2618
02:14:08,840 --> 02:14:11,640
Speaker 1: around the murderers are so murky that like most law

2619
02:14:11,720 --> 02:14:13,720
Speaker 1: enforcement kind of shrugs it off, and there's not like

2620
02:14:13,800 --> 02:14:17,320
Speaker 1: a public These people are so fringe it's very difficult

2621
02:14:17,320 --> 02:14:18,520
Speaker 1: to even talk about.

2622
02:14:18,280 --> 02:14:20,200
Speaker 2: Them right now. How do you qualify that on the

2623
02:14:20,280 --> 02:14:20,880
Speaker 2: nightly news?

2624
02:14:21,120 --> 02:14:25,600
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, this is all going to change. In February

2625
02:14:25,640 --> 02:14:29,440
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty four, Jamie's Ashco purchases three handguns I

2626
02:14:29,480 --> 02:14:32,400
Speaker 1: think from a Vermont gun store. A few months later,

2627
02:14:32,520 --> 02:14:34,800
Speaker 1: in May of twenty twenty four, a twenty year old

2628
02:14:34,800 --> 02:14:38,640
Speaker 1: woman named Teresa Youngblood disappears from her home in Seattle.

2629
02:14:39,040 --> 02:14:41,560
Speaker 1: Young Blood is one of one of the scattered community

2630
02:14:41,560 --> 02:14:44,440
Speaker 1: of people who still obsessively followed and interacted with Ziz

2631
02:14:44,600 --> 02:14:47,760
Speaker 1: and her inner circle's teachings. Her parents feared that she

2632
02:14:47,920 --> 02:14:51,560
Speaker 1: was in a controlling relationship with someone, and months after disappearing,

2633
02:14:51,800 --> 02:14:54,960
Speaker 1: she applies for a marriage license with another rationalist who's

2634
02:14:54,960 --> 02:14:59,640
Speaker 1: obsessed with Ziz, named Maximilian Snyder. Now, like most Zizians,

2635
02:15:00,240 --> 02:15:02,960
Speaker 1: has a very impressive academic record. He was a National

2636
02:15:03,040 --> 02:15:07,080
Speaker 1: Merit scholar who attended Oxford University. Then he starts posting

2637
02:15:07,160 --> 02:15:10,240
Speaker 1: on Less Wrong like all the others. He is initially

2638
02:15:10,280 --> 02:15:12,560
Speaker 1: a fan of Yadkowski, but at some point he gets

2639
02:15:12,600 --> 02:15:15,560
Speaker 1: convinced that Ziz's vegan sith radicalism is the true path.

2640
02:15:16,000 --> 02:15:18,240
Speaker 1: In the summer of twenty twenty three, just months earlier,

2641
02:15:18,360 --> 02:15:21,640
Speaker 1: he won eleven thousand dollars from an AI alignment contest,

2642
02:15:22,080 --> 02:15:23,960
Speaker 1: and he won that award under his legal name, but

2643
02:15:24,000 --> 02:15:26,440
Speaker 1: he also goes by Audere. It's kind of unclear to

2644
02:15:26,520 --> 02:15:30,160
Speaker 1: me what the situation is there. Around the same time

2645
02:15:30,440 --> 02:15:32,600
Speaker 1: he tried to raise money for Ziz when she was

2646
02:15:32,680 --> 02:15:36,800
Speaker 1: briefly behind bars. I don't know if this guy Snyder

2647
02:15:37,440 --> 02:15:40,240
Speaker 1: this person. If Snyder marries young Blood because they're actually

2648
02:15:40,320 --> 02:15:42,880
Speaker 1: in love. They had gone to high school together, but

2649
02:15:43,680 --> 02:15:45,320
Speaker 1: I think there may have been some sort of weird

2650
02:15:45,440 --> 02:15:49,640
Speaker 1: legal reason that Ziz wanted them married again. Very unclear,

2651
02:15:49,720 --> 02:15:53,440
Speaker 1: but they don't stay together physically very long. By January

2652
02:15:53,480 --> 02:15:57,280
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty five, Teresa is in Vermont looking at

2653
02:15:57,360 --> 02:16:02,040
Speaker 1: rural properties for purchase alongside Ophelia German quant Trader right well,

2654
02:16:02,120 --> 02:16:06,280
Speaker 1: Max Snyder is in like California and reading between some lines.

2655
02:16:06,360 --> 02:16:10,520
Speaker 1: I think because Ophelia and Teresa aren't involved in any

2656
02:16:10,560 --> 02:16:13,360
Speaker 1: of the court cases, Ziz is using them to help

2657
02:16:13,400 --> 02:16:16,400
Speaker 1: actually scout out and find an isolated compound where they

2658
02:16:16,440 --> 02:16:18,919
Speaker 1: can hide out. Right, Like they are doing the groundwork

2659
02:16:18,920 --> 02:16:20,720
Speaker 1: of figuring out a place for them to live. They

2660
02:16:20,760 --> 02:16:23,400
Speaker 1: are acting as the legal individuals who can kind of

2661
02:16:23,640 --> 02:16:27,840
Speaker 1: handle everything for the folks who are legally compromised. Later

2662
02:16:28,000 --> 02:16:30,840
Speaker 1: investigation would show that Bachholt and young Blood had been

2663
02:16:30,960 --> 02:16:33,920
Speaker 1: leaving living in Chapel Hill, Vermont, in a duplex, and

2664
02:16:34,000 --> 02:16:36,879
Speaker 1: neighbors say that several other people also lived with them.

2665
02:16:37,120 --> 02:16:39,520
Speaker 1: These people were always dressed in black and owned a

2666
02:16:39,640 --> 02:16:43,039
Speaker 1: box truck. It is unclear, but I think what happens

2667
02:16:43,120 --> 02:16:45,520
Speaker 1: is after she goes in the run, Ziz starts reaching

2668
02:16:45,560 --> 02:16:47,400
Speaker 1: out to people she'd been in contact with around the

2669
02:16:47,440 --> 02:16:49,760
Speaker 1: world and says, hey, the time is now, drop out

2670
02:16:49,800 --> 02:16:52,360
Speaker 1: of your lives and come devote yourselves to the cause,

2671
02:16:52,560 --> 02:16:55,760
Speaker 1: right okay, And that these these three are the ones

2672
02:16:55,800 --> 02:16:58,680
Speaker 1: who follow Bacault, young Blood and Snyder right because they

2673
02:16:58,760 --> 02:17:01,040
Speaker 1: all cut ties with their family, cut you know, with

2674
02:17:01,160 --> 02:17:05,240
Speaker 1: their jobs, and leave home around the same time. While

2675
02:17:05,280 --> 02:17:08,400
Speaker 1: they're looking for rural prop compounds, Backholt and young Blood

2676
02:17:08,600 --> 02:17:11,600
Speaker 1: wind up in a hotel in Lyndenville, Vermont. An employee

2677
02:17:11,760 --> 02:17:14,040
Speaker 1: reports them to the police because they're wearing body armor.

2678
02:17:14,080 --> 02:17:16,160
Speaker 1: Another tactical gear, and at least one of them is

2679
02:17:16,240 --> 02:17:20,000
Speaker 1: openly carrying a pistol. Something is very weird here because

2680
02:17:20,000 --> 02:17:22,560
Speaker 1: they're approached not just by Virginia State Police, but by

2681
02:17:22,600 --> 02:17:26,959
Speaker 1: a Homeland Security Investigations officer. And there's evidence that Homeland

2682
02:17:26,959 --> 02:17:29,280
Speaker 1: Security spends like a week, is surveilling them for like

2683
02:17:29,360 --> 02:17:32,200
Speaker 1: a week before the shootout that happens. I don't know

2684
02:17:32,440 --> 02:17:35,800
Speaker 1: what Homeland Security thought was happening. They may have just

2685
02:17:35,879 --> 02:17:40,400
Speaker 1: seen we're on the border. Obviously shit's escalated there. This

2686
02:17:40,600 --> 02:17:44,560
Speaker 1: isn't a foreign citizen with an American citizen. They're wrapping

2687
02:17:44,600 --> 02:17:47,600
Speaker 1: their electronics in tenfoil, they've got guns, they're driving around

2688
02:17:47,640 --> 02:17:49,440
Speaker 1: being very suspicious and tactical gear.

2689
02:17:50,320 --> 02:17:50,840
Speaker 2: Maybe they just.

2690
02:17:50,840 --> 02:17:53,199
Speaker 1: Thought it was like some run of the mill terrorism bullshit.

2691
02:17:53,280 --> 02:17:55,680
Speaker 2: It's worth checking out, right, So.

2692
02:17:55,760 --> 02:17:59,160
Speaker 1: They are surveilling these people, and I think young Blood

2693
02:17:59,160 --> 02:18:03,800
Speaker 1: and Bockholt they're being surveilled, right, and that that starts

2694
02:18:04,440 --> 02:18:08,680
Speaker 1: that escalatory loop in their head of Zizi and logic, where, well,

2695
02:18:08,720 --> 02:18:12,199
Speaker 1: if the police confront me, there's only one way to respond.

2696
02:18:12,720 --> 02:18:14,080
Speaker 2: Fuck yeah.

2697
02:18:15,240 --> 02:18:18,480
Speaker 1: Two days later, prosecutors in California ask the judge and

2698
02:18:18,520 --> 02:18:20,440
Speaker 1: the Curtis Lind case to speed up the process of

2699
02:18:20,520 --> 02:18:22,520
Speaker 1: going to trial. He's in his eighties, he's got a

2700
02:18:22,560 --> 02:18:24,279
Speaker 1: bad memory, and he's the only witness of the attacks.

2701
02:18:24,360 --> 02:18:26,360
Speaker 1: They say it's necessary, like, we need to do this quickly.

2702
02:18:26,920 --> 02:18:30,160
Speaker 1: So the next day, January seventeenth, before this can happen,

2703
02:18:30,240 --> 02:18:33,480
Speaker 1: before Lynd can go to trial, a masked assailant assaults

2704
02:18:33,560 --> 02:18:36,640
Speaker 1: Lind near his property and slits his throat, killing him.

2705
02:18:37,320 --> 02:18:41,200
Speaker 1: Maximilian Snyder, young Blood's husband, will be arrested days later

2706
02:18:41,280 --> 02:18:42,440
Speaker 1: in Reading, California for the.

2707
02:18:42,480 --> 02:18:47,040
Speaker 2: Murder fuck because they had been separate. Oh right, so

2708
02:18:47,160 --> 02:18:51,359
Speaker 2: there's like there's a possibility that says it's said.

2709
02:18:51,560 --> 02:18:54,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't see what now. He denied he hasn't

2710
02:18:54,760 --> 02:18:56,800
Speaker 1: pled yet, at least as the time we record this.

2711
02:18:56,920 --> 02:18:59,320
Speaker 1: But he sent the letter in jail to Alisa Jitkowski

2712
02:18:59,720 --> 02:19:07,519
Speaker 1: try to make him become a vegan. He also priorities

2713
02:19:07,560 --> 02:19:14,520
Speaker 1: in order. Oh. He also claimed, quote, I am not

2714
02:19:14,640 --> 02:19:17,520
Speaker 1: one of Zizz's friends. Neither she nor her friends endorse

2715
02:19:17,640 --> 02:19:19,320
Speaker 1: me or my words, so far as I know, I

2716
02:19:19,360 --> 02:19:22,320
Speaker 1: speak only for myself as myself for the sake of everyone.

2717
02:19:23,680 --> 02:19:25,760
Speaker 2: Sure, Yeah, okay, okay.

2718
02:19:25,640 --> 02:19:28,760
Speaker 1: Man, you just decided to kill this guy for no reason.

2719
02:19:33,360 --> 02:19:37,120
Speaker 2: Who happened to happen to have a relationship with this

2720
02:19:37,440 --> 02:19:38,840
Speaker 2: very small group of people.

2721
02:19:39,120 --> 02:19:42,400
Speaker 1: Wis this person? He has filed for a marriage license

2722
02:19:42,480 --> 02:19:46,320
Speaker 1: with young Blood. The day after Lynde gets assassinated, young

2723
02:19:46,360 --> 02:19:49,240
Speaker 1: Blood and Backolt are heading back from a trip out

2724
02:19:49,320 --> 02:19:52,520
Speaker 1: target shooting when they get pulled over by Border Patrol.

2725
02:19:53,200 --> 02:19:56,640
Speaker 1: Young Blood almost immediately draws her side arm. There's a shootout.

2726
02:19:57,280 --> 02:20:00,160
Speaker 1: She killed or I think she kills. Now, anytime there's

2727
02:20:00,200 --> 02:20:03,360
Speaker 1: a shootout and an officer dies, a decent amount of

2728
02:20:03,400 --> 02:20:06,000
Speaker 1: the time that officer is like killed by another cops bullet.

2729
02:20:06,080 --> 02:20:08,560
Speaker 1: I don't actually know for sure if it was young

2730
02:20:08,600 --> 02:20:10,320
Speaker 1: But or if they all start shooting and he just

2731
02:20:10,360 --> 02:20:13,640
Speaker 1: gets killed in the crossfire. I don't fully know whose

2732
02:20:13,800 --> 02:20:17,920
Speaker 1: gun kills him, but she definitely starts shooting right right,

2733
02:20:18,920 --> 02:20:23,080
Speaker 1: and Border Patrol agent David Mallin dies Bacholt is killed

2734
02:20:23,120 --> 02:20:25,640
Speaker 1: in the immediate shootout before she can draw a weapon.

2735
02:20:25,959 --> 02:20:28,879
Speaker 1: And both of the firearms used in this shooting were

2736
02:20:28,920 --> 02:20:33,640
Speaker 1: guns purchased by Zadji by Jamie in early twenty twenty four. Right, So, again,

2737
02:20:34,240 --> 02:20:36,520
Speaker 1: all of these things are it's very easy to connect

2738
02:20:36,520 --> 02:20:38,360
Speaker 1: them if you know all these people it takes so

2739
02:20:38,560 --> 02:20:39,440
Speaker 1: long to trace out.

2740
02:20:39,920 --> 02:20:43,320
Speaker 2: For all their talk of murder, the in practice, they're

2741
02:20:43,320 --> 02:20:45,480
Speaker 2: not very good at it. Huh, No, I guess.

2742
02:20:45,720 --> 02:20:48,040
Speaker 1: I mean they didn't plan for this shooting to happen, right,

2743
02:20:48,200 --> 02:20:51,360
Speaker 1: It's just that their kind of escalatory logic made it inevitable.

2744
02:20:52,480 --> 02:20:55,640
Speaker 1: After all this, authorities finally start putting the whole story together.

2745
02:20:55,800 --> 02:20:58,640
Speaker 1: A man hunt is law launched in on February sixteenth

2746
02:20:58,640 --> 02:21:01,200
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty five. Ziz, Jamie, and Daniel Blank are

2747
02:21:01,240 --> 02:21:04,080
Speaker 1: finally caught after the shootout. They seem to have started

2748
02:21:04,120 --> 02:21:07,199
Speaker 1: living in box trucks again, one of which was registered

2749
02:21:07,240 --> 02:21:10,000
Speaker 1: to young Blood. Yeah, back to what you know, and

2750
02:21:10,120 --> 02:21:12,240
Speaker 1: again one of these is young Blood. Like the box

2751
02:21:12,280 --> 02:21:15,120
Speaker 1: truck is registered in her name. They pulled onto a

2752
02:21:15,200 --> 02:21:18,080
Speaker 1: property in Frostburg to camp, and the owner like spotted

2753
02:21:18,080 --> 02:21:20,080
Speaker 1: them and said, hey, get off my land, and like,

2754
02:21:20,240 --> 02:21:22,960
Speaker 1: Ziz tries to talk this person into letting them stay

2755
02:21:23,040 --> 02:21:26,560
Speaker 1: for a month, but he's like, no, I'm gonna call

2756
02:21:26,600 --> 02:21:27,080
Speaker 1: the cops.

2757
02:21:27,680 --> 02:21:30,320
Speaker 2: In a row, you're a wizard's role. You look like

2758
02:21:30,480 --> 02:21:31,039
Speaker 2: a wizard.

2759
02:21:31,520 --> 02:21:35,040
Speaker 1: You don't need any of this. Ultimately, they all get

2760
02:21:35,160 --> 02:21:37,720
Speaker 1: arrested and charged with everything. The cops could throw at them,

2761
02:21:37,760 --> 02:21:40,840
Speaker 1: which is like a legal possession carrying a firearm, stuff

2762
02:21:40,920 --> 02:21:44,120
Speaker 1: like that. Right inside the other box trucks, state troopers

2763
02:21:44,200 --> 02:21:47,920
Speaker 1: found Jamie and Ziz, according to the charging documents, dressed

2764
02:21:47,959 --> 02:21:52,400
Speaker 1: all in black and wearing gun belts with ammunition. So yeah,

2765
02:21:53,280 --> 02:21:56,520
Speaker 1: and that's the situation. Uh, where we are, Now, that's

2766
02:21:57,160 --> 02:22:07,520
Speaker 1: the story's done. No, yeah, so this is basically where

2767
02:22:07,600 --> 02:22:12,280
Speaker 1: we are. Ziz asked for pre trial release, didn't get it. No,

2768
02:22:13,400 --> 02:22:17,560
Speaker 1: not chucked about that quote speaking and this is from

2769
02:22:17,560 --> 02:22:20,600
Speaker 1: a Seattle PI article, speaking haltingly. She also requested a

2770
02:22:20,720 --> 02:22:22,480
Speaker 1: vegan diet and said that she was in a mild

2771
02:22:22,520 --> 02:22:25,440
Speaker 1: state of delirium due to lack of food. I have

2772
02:22:25,600 --> 02:22:27,680
Speaker 1: not done anything wrong, she told her Jes, I might

2773
02:22:27,760 --> 02:22:29,640
Speaker 1: starve to death if you do not intervene. I need

2774
02:22:29,720 --> 02:22:31,560
Speaker 1: the jail to be ordered to have a vegan diet.

2775
02:22:31,600 --> 02:22:34,440
Speaker 1: It's more important than whatever this hearing is. So I

2776
02:22:34,480 --> 02:22:37,200
Speaker 1: don't think this whole court process is going to end

2777
02:22:37,240 --> 02:22:38,240
Speaker 1: super well for Ziz.

2778
02:22:38,440 --> 02:22:38,480
Speaker 4: No.

2779
02:22:39,040 --> 02:22:41,120
Speaker 1: But I also it's very hard to tell, like what

2780
02:22:41,240 --> 02:22:43,360
Speaker 1: are you what are you got to charge that? Like,

2781
02:22:43,560 --> 02:22:48,880
Speaker 1: I don't like I'm legitimately like very uh like I

2782
02:22:49,959 --> 02:22:52,640
Speaker 1: I'll be fascinated to see what the charges are here.

2783
02:22:52,840 --> 02:22:54,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's excited to know that this we can see

2784
02:22:54,840 --> 02:22:55,880
Speaker 2: this play out real time.

2785
02:22:56,040 --> 02:22:59,360
Speaker 1: I yeah, this was weird.

2786
02:23:00,320 --> 02:23:08,000
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, hell yeah I was great.

2787
02:23:08,480 --> 02:23:12,640
Speaker 3: Anyway, Like I would like to know how things fucking

2788
02:23:12,720 --> 02:23:13,240
Speaker 3: shake up.

2789
02:23:13,800 --> 02:23:17,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, maybe we'll revisit this when my brain has healed.

2790
02:23:17,600 --> 02:23:19,480
Speaker 1: I need to go, like read about Hitler some to

2791
02:23:19,560 --> 02:23:20,120
Speaker 1: calm down.

2792
02:23:20,440 --> 02:23:22,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, you need to go talk to your neighbor.

2793
02:23:22,520 --> 02:23:24,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I need to go talk to my Name's a

2794
02:23:24,200 --> 02:23:25,640
Speaker 3: better suggestion, thank you.

2795
02:23:26,120 --> 02:23:28,720
Speaker 1: Yeah. Not just keep reading my Hitler books and coming

2796
02:23:28,840 --> 02:23:33,440
Speaker 1: up with theories. That's how you get That's how you

2797
02:23:33,560 --> 02:23:35,039
Speaker 1: get double bad exactly.

2798
02:23:35,200 --> 02:23:36,199
Speaker 2: That's how it happens.

2799
02:23:37,200 --> 02:23:39,200
Speaker 3: You got to go on a run. Go talk to

2800
02:23:39,320 --> 02:23:41,360
Speaker 3: your neighbor, Go petigot.

2801
02:23:41,120 --> 02:23:44,680
Speaker 1: You know everyone else, go go talk to somebody, you know,

2802
02:23:45,360 --> 02:23:47,600
Speaker 1: pet an animal, walk.

2803
02:23:48,959 --> 02:23:51,920
Speaker 2: You know, in the woods or something. Maybe stay away

2804
02:23:51,959 --> 02:23:53,160
Speaker 2: from boats for a while, just to.

2805
02:23:53,560 --> 02:23:56,000
Speaker 1: Stay the fuck away from boats. Don't go live on

2806
02:23:56,080 --> 02:23:58,640
Speaker 1: a boat. Don't go live on a boat. Stay out

2807
02:23:58,640 --> 02:24:04,440
Speaker 1: of the water. I don't care about it.

2808
02:24:04,560 --> 02:24:08,720
Speaker 2: Rent to stand on the fucking water. Oh man, fuck.

2809
02:24:10,800 --> 02:24:13,760
Speaker 1: Wow. At the end of this, David, David.

2810
02:24:13,560 --> 02:24:15,920
Speaker 3: How are you doing this? Is your first experience on

2811
02:24:16,000 --> 02:24:17,400
Speaker 3: our show What's Up?

2812
02:24:18,080 --> 02:24:21,160
Speaker 2: I honestly don't know to tell you. I don't know

2813
02:24:21,200 --> 02:24:23,800
Speaker 2: how I feel. I'm gonna have to I'm really gonna

2814
02:24:23,800 --> 02:24:25,560
Speaker 2: have to kick this around for a couple of days.

2815
02:24:25,720 --> 02:24:27,160
Speaker 1: But this is interesting.

2816
02:24:27,560 --> 02:24:29,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, interesting as hell.

2817
02:24:29,600 --> 02:24:34,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's one way to describe it. That's one way

2818
02:24:34,640 --> 02:24:35,240
Speaker 1: to describe it.

2819
02:24:37,680 --> 02:24:40,600
Speaker 3: This is a wild time, David, you have any Do

2820
02:24:40,680 --> 02:24:42,080
Speaker 3: you have anything you want to plug for?

2821
02:24:43,440 --> 02:24:43,680
Speaker 1: Yeah?

2822
02:24:44,040 --> 02:24:47,920
Speaker 2: I produced my own comedy special. It's available on my Patreon,

2823
02:24:48,080 --> 02:24:52,240
Speaker 2: Patreon dot com backslash David bory G b O r

2824
02:24:52,560 --> 02:24:55,440
Speaker 2: I E. It's called Birth of a Nation spelled with

2825
02:24:55,520 --> 02:24:58,680
Speaker 2: a G because that's my last name and I think

2826
02:24:58,680 --> 02:25:02,920
Speaker 2: it's funny. But yeah, I have a podcast. My mama

2827
02:25:03,000 --> 02:25:05,240
Speaker 2: told me. I also have one called All Fantasy Everything,

2828
02:25:05,280 --> 02:25:08,720
Speaker 2: where we draft fantasy things that aren't sports. But yeah,

2829
02:25:08,879 --> 02:25:09,680
Speaker 2: check that stuff out.

2830
02:25:10,920 --> 02:25:12,920
Speaker 1: Yes, ship that sounds really cool.

2831
02:25:13,400 --> 02:25:14,320
Speaker 2: It's a lot of fun.

2832
02:25:14,640 --> 02:25:16,600
Speaker 1: That sounds so much better for you than everything we've

2833
02:25:16,600 --> 02:25:17,040
Speaker 1: talked about.

2834
02:25:17,080 --> 02:25:17,880
Speaker 2: It's different than this.

2835
02:25:18,200 --> 02:25:22,280
Speaker 3: It's different than this, and it reminded me I need

2836
02:25:22,680 --> 02:25:24,720
Speaker 3: I need to set my fantasy basketball line up. So

2837
02:25:24,840 --> 02:25:25,320
Speaker 3: thank you, sir.

2838
02:25:26,120 --> 02:25:26,520
Speaker 2: It's time.

2839
02:25:26,840 --> 02:25:27,240
Speaker 3: It's time.

2840
02:25:27,360 --> 02:25:31,000
Speaker 1: Check it out. Everybody, all right, that's uh, that's been

2841
02:25:31,040 --> 02:25:34,120
Speaker 1: the podcast. Don't don't do any of this, don't do

2842
02:25:34,200 --> 02:25:36,880
Speaker 1: any of the things in this in this episode, please

2843
02:25:37,760 --> 02:25:38,920
Speaker 1: bye bye.

2844
02:25:42,440 --> 02:25:45,120
Speaker 4: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

2845
02:25:45,480 --> 02:25:48,120
Speaker 4: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

2846
02:25:48,200 --> 02:25:52,120
Speaker 4: Zonemedia dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

2847
02:25:52,240 --> 02:25:55,360
Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the

2848
02:25:55,400 --> 02:25:59,400
Speaker 4: Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday

2849
02:25:59,520 --> 02:26:00,000
Speaker 4: and Friday.

2850
02:26:00,480 --> 02:26:04,200
Speaker 3: Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com slash at Behind

2851
02:26:04,240 --> 02:26:04,840
Speaker 3: the Bastards