1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is You and Me Both. 3 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: Today we're talking about our democracy, which was really put 4 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:17,440 Speaker 1: to the test over these last four years. I was 5 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: greatly relieved when Joe Biden and Kamala Harris were finally 6 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: declared the winners of the election that they had won, 7 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: and I've been really encouraged by the steady way they've governed. 8 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: The significant COVID package that was passed by the Congress 9 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:40,480 Speaker 1: sends a message to not just Democrats, but Republicans, independence, 10 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: every American that guess what, they have a government again 11 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: that cares whether they live or die, that cares whether 12 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: their kids are in school, that cares, you know, whether 13 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: their small business survives, or their local government is going 14 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: to provide essential services. So I'm deeply relieved, but I 15 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: think we have to be watchful because as we're speaking, 16 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: lots of states are trying to turn the clock back 17 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: on voting, So we still have to be vigilant about 18 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: our democratic institutions. I'm excited to talk to two people 19 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 1: who have thought about and contributed to the health of 20 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: our democracy. We'll hear from Rashad Robinson, one of the 21 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: most tireless activists I know. But first I'm talking with 22 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: writer and journalist Masha Guessen. Masha is someone whose career 23 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: I have followed for a long time. Masha grew up 24 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: in the Soviet Union and has written a lot about 25 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 1: the resurgence of autocracy in Russia, and the day after 26 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: the election was called for Trump, Masha wrote an essay 27 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: called Autocracy Rules for Survival that really captured my attention. 28 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: Masha told us we should be worried about autocracy right 29 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: here in the United States, which I know sounded alarmists 30 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: to a lot of people. I thought, however, that it 31 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: had the ring of truth. So I asked Masha to 32 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: join me on the podcast to talk about how our 33 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: democracy fared under Trump and where we are now. Well, 34 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: let me start by saying how really delighted I am 35 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: to speak with you, Masha. I have been an avid 36 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: reader and follower of your writing and speaking and appreciate 37 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: very much all of your insights into what's going on 38 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 1: in our world today. Thank you so much. It's just 39 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: such a huge honor to be talking to you. Almost 40 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: immediately after Trump was elected, you wrote an essay called 41 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: Autocracy Rules for Survival, in which you argued that our 42 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: laws are democratic ideals and institutions were at mortal risk. 43 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: How did you come to that realization so early? You know? 44 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: I mean I'd spent the couple of years before trump 45 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: selection writing a book called The Future Is History? How 46 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: to tell Aitarianism Reclaimed Russia? So I'd spent two years 47 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: actively thinking about that every day and thinking, you know, 48 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: how do you define to tell atarianism? What are the signs, 49 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 1: how do you know you're in it? How do you 50 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: know it's it's ending? And that was happening in parallel 51 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: with having all these conversations obviously during the election about 52 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: is he going to get nominated? Is he actually going 53 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: to win? But the conversation I'd actually spent the most 54 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: time thinking about was the conversation I'd had with somebody, 55 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: you know, one of those lunches where you say, oh 56 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: you think you know, do you think Trump can get elected? 57 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: And I sort of said something like, yeah, but you 58 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: know this isn't Russia, and the person I was talking 59 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: to said, oh, so you think our institutions are strong 60 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: enough to withstand someone like Trump? So do I? And 61 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: sort of biking back from that, I thought, wait, do 62 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: I think that our institutions are stronger than that. I'm 63 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: not sure I do. That was the exact question that 64 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: I've been thinking about and had come to the conclusion 65 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: they weren't. Do you have a kind of sense of 66 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: what did better than something else? Like, were there institutions 67 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: that withstood Trump's interference and his belittling and his undermining, 68 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 1: you know, better than others? How would you in effect 69 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: grade that? It's an interesting question. I think that our 70 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 1: institutions of checks and balances did not hold up at all. 71 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: I think that he really showed how well he could 72 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: use his legal and extra legal powers, you know, to 73 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: do things from firing the inspectors General to basically stonewell 74 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 1: in Congress, and of course the disastrous period after the 75 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 1: election when we saw, you know, it is Congress's actual 76 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: job to exercise a check on the presidency, and it 77 00:04:55,800 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: is what Congress failed to do. We've had, even after 78 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: the insurrection, more than a hundred Republicans in the House 79 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: vote against certifying the election, which I just think is terrifying, 80 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:13,039 Speaker 1: So failing marks all around there. Um. I think that 81 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 1: he did an incredible amount of damage to the courts, 82 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: more than we realized at this point by packing the courts, 83 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: which is of course part of the autocrats playbook. And 84 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: if we move on to the media, I think we 85 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: you know, there's some there are a lot of failures. 86 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 1: There were also some incredible successes. I mean, I think 87 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: we saw investigative journalism unlike any that we have seen before. 88 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: We saw also and I think this has even more 89 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 1: important new collaborative models in investigative journalism that we wouldn't 90 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: have seen had it not been for Trump. And I 91 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 1: think probably the part of our society that held up 92 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: best is civil society organizations like the American Civil Liberties Union, 93 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: which is all they did for four years was fight Trump. Um. 94 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: Those kinds of projects there are integrity wasn't compromised. Yes, 95 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: I think civil society probably comes out of the spirit 96 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: stronger and then it went in And that's the only 97 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: part of our democracy that we can say that about it. 98 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: But I wanted to ask you now that we have 99 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: seen a real life insurrection in the United States, with 100 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: an attack on our capital, how would you, knowing as 101 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 1: much as you do about autocracy and totalitarianism, have handled it. 102 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 1: What else could we be doing or should we think about? 103 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 1: There are a couple of things that I want to 104 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 1: sort of take as su premises. At one you mentioned 105 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 1: that in the book, I tried to set out the 106 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: benchmarks for how an autocratic attempt happens. But I also 107 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 1: try to grapple with something which is that it never 108 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: happens overnight. The way that we learned history, you know, 109 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 1: we collapse events that happen over time into single events 110 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: like the reich Stuck fire. Right, we imagine that the 111 00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: entirety of Nazi rule came into being with Reich style fire. 112 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: But the rech style fire happened in eight years before 113 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 1: the Holocaust began. There were things happening over the course 114 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: of those years that made it imaginable for Germans that 115 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: they would try to take over the world. And I've 116 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: always been obsessed with sort of what happens between the 117 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: beginning and the end of a historical event, you know. 118 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: So to me, looking at the insurrection and the outcome 119 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: of the election in general, a lot of people have 120 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: sort of breathed a sigh of relief and said, well, look, 121 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: you know, our institutions held up. And what I see 122 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: is that, well, look, you know, it takes time to 123 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: destroy institutions. In Russia. In we're seeing the dregs of 124 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: the court system still being used to jail Alexey Navy. 125 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: But they're still using something that they're calling the courts. Right, 126 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: it's like exactly founded them into the ground. They're holding 127 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: court hearings in a police precinct, right, are charging them 128 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: under nonexistent laws. But they're still using the remnants of 129 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: the institutions. So what I see is evidence that our 130 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: institutions haven't been entirely destroyed, but not that they not 131 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: They are holding strong. I think that's a very important point, 132 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: and I've often wondered about this myself, that authoritarians often 133 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: remain committed to the charade of institutions. You know, they 134 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 1: packed the courts, they change the laws, they subjugate those institutions, 135 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 1: but they don't eliminate them. And there still is a 136 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: recognition on the part of an autocratic regime that they 137 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 1: have to have these kind of in disease of normalcy 138 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 1: in order to run a government. You know, I always 139 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: was struck how when Allied troops were liberating the death camps, 140 00:08:55,480 --> 00:09:00,080 Speaker 1: the remaining Nazis before fleeing tried to destroy evidence. You know, 141 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 1: they tried to burn the gas chambers. They tried to 142 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: destroy the clear evidence of what they had done there 143 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 1: because they knew, despite all of the efforts to propaganda 144 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: e's and to brainwash and to turn them into cult members, 145 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: they knew that there was something that would not withstand scrutiny. 146 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: So what do we do? I mean, the long term 147 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: effects of the Trump presidency are still being I think 148 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: felt and assessed. So what are the rules for surviving 149 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: autocracy that not only we as you know, citizens, but 150 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 1: the press and other parts of society should be following. 151 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: I think we need a huge storytelling project. Interesting, it's 152 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: a crazy idea, but I mean it's not completely crazy. 153 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: It's even actually been tried in this country in the 154 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: nine right, there was a huge right during the w 155 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: p A. I think that's what we need, because what 156 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 1: do we know actually about surviving autocracy after the end 157 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: of autocracy is that countries that do best, societies that 158 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 1: do best, our societies that have a story, a story 159 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 1: that promises a sense of belonging, which I think is 160 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 1: so huge in the appeal of these past oriented autocrats. 161 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: That's so important. I want to underscore what you said, 162 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 1: because it's always an appeal to the idealized past, make 163 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:30,679 Speaker 1: America great again. It used to be, it isn't any longer, 164 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:35,439 Speaker 1: right Hitler's contemporaries Eric from the Great Psychoanalytic Social Psychologist 165 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: wrote a lot about that idea that the autocrat comes 166 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 1: in and promises return to this imaginary past when you 167 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: didn't feel this extreme level of anxiety. There is an 168 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: extremely high level of anxiety that of course gives us 169 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: autocrats in the first place, right, a sense of social 170 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: and economic displacement and a sense of profound uncertainty. And 171 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: what you need for that is a story about the 172 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: future that is as glorious as that story about the 173 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: past is grant And a lot of people were really 174 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: upset that, you know, politicians were saying, this is not 175 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: who we are when we're looking at the insurgency. And 176 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 1: I actually think that that's the seed of the kind 177 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 1: of story that needs to be told, That this is 178 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,559 Speaker 1: not who we are should really be understood as aspiration, 179 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,320 Speaker 1: as this is not who we are in the way 180 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 1: that we imagine ourselves. So how do we become, you know, 181 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: the America that we were promised, that we promised ourselves. 182 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: You know, in the book, I quote the Langston Hughes 183 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: Home America right where he says America has never been, 184 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: but America will be, which I think was echoed beautifully 185 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: by the inaugural poem Amanda Gorman, who clearly referenced it 186 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: and who I thought brilliantly talked about democracy as an aspiration, 187 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 1: right as a project for the future. She talked about 188 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 1: democracy if we're being out, but also a democracy can 189 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 1: be delayed, right, and by saying democracy can be deligious 190 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,559 Speaker 1: saying democracy is always in the future. Democracy is the 191 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: thing we're going towards. Those are the seeds of a 192 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: kind of storytelling project that can be radically inclusive. I 193 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:17,440 Speaker 1: love this, Masha, I love this idea. You know, it's 194 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: interesting to me how countries, how nations tell themselves stories. 195 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: And I have to ask you, what is the story 196 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: that Russians are telling themselves right now? Is there a 197 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 1: different story or do Russians have to wait until Putin 198 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,559 Speaker 1: is somehow gone? And I think there is actually a 199 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 1: collision of stories right. The story that Putin has been 200 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: telling for years is this very nostalgic story about a 201 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:47,319 Speaker 1: glorious past. It is centered entirely around the Soviet victory 202 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: in world War two. It's the ultimate legitimizing event of 203 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 1: the twentieth century for the Soviet Union. It's what made 204 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union a superpower. And it also, by sort 205 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: of legitimizing the post war period of being superpowered, also 206 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: legitimized the pre war period of the Great Terror. Interesting, 207 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: but for the Great Terror, you would not have had 208 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: the victory exactly, and so that that manages to, you know, 209 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 1: sort of gloss over the entire twentieth century and create 210 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 1: this kind of beautiful story of victory and being right. 211 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: And I think Navalni has actually been telling a very 212 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: different story. He has this insistence on acting as though 213 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:32,679 Speaker 1: Russia could actually be a country with an accountable government, 214 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: with transparent elections, with mechanisms that work. The basic story 215 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: that he is telling is the story that it is 216 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:44,599 Speaker 1: possible to have good, accountable government in Russia, which is 217 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 1: a radical idea which does throw it into the future, 218 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: like you were suggesting, is one of the best ways 219 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: to counteract the organized look back nostalgia that autocrats rely on. Exactly. Yeah. 220 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: He uses this phrase the wonderful Russia of the future, 221 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: and he talks about what will happen in the wonderful 222 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:08,079 Speaker 1: Russia of the future. We're taking a quick break, stay 223 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: with us. So I'd love to close with this because 224 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: I love talking to and maybe when we are all vaccinated, 225 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: we can continue this. But you know, you're an immigrant 226 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: and you're a refugee, and those are two parts of 227 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: your identity that have been long tied to the story 228 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 1: of America. But as you wrote in Surviving Autocracy, the 229 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: immigrant story was the story that the Trump administration abandoned. 230 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: And there are lots of stories that the United States 231 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: could tell now and moving forward, what do you hope 232 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: the American story would be again? Well, I don't have 233 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: to tell you that the immigrants story is at once 234 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: inspiring and problematic. The idea that this is a nation 235 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: of immigrants alliedes the story of those who came here 236 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: against their will, and also the story of those who 237 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: were here before the settlers exactly, and the extraordinary prejudice 238 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: against wave after wave of immigrants who came in the 239 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 1: years since. But you know that underscores the need for 240 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: some kind of reinvention of the story. Right, you know, 241 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 1: we are at a crossroads in terms of telling the 242 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: story of this country. How do we combine the story 243 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: of a country founded on a set of beautiful, abstract 244 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 1: ideals that also systematically failed to live up to those ideals. 245 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: And I hope it can be a story of these 246 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: ideals are still possible, these ideas are still the foundation 247 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: of our potential unity. I mean, I think we're so 248 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: close to actually being able to grab it as a 249 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: story and as a way to move forward, But it 250 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: has to be a huge national project with like visible leadership. 251 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: I mean, what I imagine is writers and facilitators going 252 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: out to every public library in this country when we're 253 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 1: all vaccinated and holding storytelling sessions, holding town halls. I mean, 254 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 1: we have these beautiful American rituals, and I think some 255 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: of the more interesting arguments about how we do the reckoning, 256 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: if we do the reckoning now, has had to do 257 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: with what kinds of rituals we employ. You know, do 258 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: we employ the Senate hearings, that we employ court hearings. 259 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: But I think we need to employ the existing rituals 260 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: of public gatherings in the in the United States, you know, 261 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: gather town halls, tells stories, come together in telling these 262 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: stories and figure out how we move forward and rebuild 263 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 1: on the basis of those ideas on which the country 264 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: was founded, which is a very different something sort of okay, 265 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: with the institution is held up, Let's go back to 266 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: normal and act like none of this ever happens, which 267 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: I'm really scared. I am scared about that too, and 268 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: I think it would be such a serious error, and 269 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: the next couple of years is going to be a 270 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:22,400 Speaker 1: a real test. I actually think that Biden is well 271 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 1: suited for this period because of his personal story, which 272 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: is a you know, deeply human resident story about suffering 273 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:35,680 Speaker 1: and redemption and and forgiveness and all that goes with it. 274 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:40,640 Speaker 1: But the organized approach that you're describing could be exactly 275 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 1: what is needed. And so I, for one, I'm going 276 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: to be promoting the idea. I will give you full 277 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:51,159 Speaker 1: credit for it. I don't need credit. I need somebody 278 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: who's an organizer like you and not an agitator like me. 279 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: So well to be continued, and thank you for your 280 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: incredibly and fightful and very important writing over the last 281 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: year's Thank you, secondary Clinton, It's been such an honor 282 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: to talk to you. Masha Guessen is a staff writer 283 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: at the New Yorker whose most recent book is called 284 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: Surviving Autocracy. My next guest is Rashad Robinson. Rashad has 285 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: been an activist his entire life, starting in high school 286 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: when he led his classmates in a protest against a 287 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:40,120 Speaker 1: local drug store because of how it treated the students 288 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:44,399 Speaker 1: who hung out there after school. These days, he leads 289 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 1: Color of Change, America's largest organization, helping people to take 290 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 1: online action in support of racial justice. I've known Rashade 291 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: for years, and I'm proud to say that Color of 292 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: Change was one of our first partner organism nations in 293 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: Onward Together, a group I founded after the sixteen election 294 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 1: to support the people and groups doing the really hard 295 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:12,439 Speaker 1: work of repairing our democracy. Rashad is one of the 296 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: most energetic people I've ever met, and he's also known 297 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:21,359 Speaker 1: for his trademark hats, which he's almost always wearing. I 298 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:26,120 Speaker 1: was thrilled to catch up with him. Hi, Rashad, Hey, 299 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: how are you? I think they're calling me about a 300 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: grocery haddemic moments yet, no problem? All right, there we go. Okay, Well, 301 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 1: welcome to the show, Rashad. I am so excited about 302 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: having you as a guest on this podcast. Well, thank 303 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: you for having me. It's an honor and a pleasure. 304 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: I want to talk with you about what these last 305 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 1: four years have been like, because in many ways, what 306 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: color of change stands for, what you've been fighting for 307 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 1: has been really on the lawn because of everything happening 308 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: in our country, the threats to our democracy. What has 309 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: it been like for you personally, Well, personally, it's been 310 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:14,199 Speaker 1: NonStop to see and to be in the midst of 311 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 1: so much suffering and to feel like the levers that 312 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,159 Speaker 1: you relied on the poll, we're not there in so 313 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 1: many ways. You know, right after the election, we had 314 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,239 Speaker 1: to figure out how we were going to move. You know, 315 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: we had spent years during the Obama administration pushing and 316 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: challenging right. We would you know, show up to d 317 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 1: O J sometimes with petitions in hand, pushing. We would 318 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: show up at hood or Education Department pushing right. It 319 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 1: didn't mean that we got everything we wanted, but we 320 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:47,160 Speaker 1: knew that we were inside of a conversation. We recognized 321 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: very clearly that we had to shift strategies, that we 322 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 1: couldn't go hat in hand anymore, and that meant that 323 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 1: we had to really figure out who we were going 324 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 1: to be to actually build power, to not be inside 325 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 1: of what we talk about is magical thinking, right. Magical 326 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: thinking is like the stories we sometimes tell ourselves about 327 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:10,440 Speaker 1: how change happens. Right. A petition demanding Mitch McConnell stand 328 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: up for firm and action is not a petition that's 329 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: going anywhere, no matter how many people sign it, right, 330 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 1: And so part of what we had to do was 331 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 1: figure that out, and we really built what I feel 332 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 1: was a new strategy that was focused not simply on 333 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:29,239 Speaker 1: resistance but on opposition. What would it mean to not 334 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: just resist, but to build power to a post so 335 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,679 Speaker 1: that we could get back to governing, focusing on winning 336 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 1: real world victories at the local level, while also recognizing 337 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: that the game was not fair, that the rules were raped, 338 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 1: and that we couldn't simply say that what happened in 339 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: was democracy. Uh, it was what happened, and we are 340 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: dealing with it, but we had to recognize it, fight 341 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: and challenge to build something new. Those are really important insights, 342 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: because you're right. Oftentimes when people get involved in any 343 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 1: kind of movement for social justice for progress, they can't 344 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 1: believe that just stating the problem won't get the results 345 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:13,160 Speaker 1: that you're seeking, and it is a slow, hard boring 346 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: of hard boards. As Max Weber said decades ago about 347 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: politics and political change. You know, when we look at 348 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:26,199 Speaker 1: what you had to face during the four years of 349 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:30,439 Speaker 1: the Trump administration, in your opinion, how close did we 350 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: come to actually losing our democracy? Well, you know, I 351 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 1: think it's still under contention, right. You know, we right 352 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 1: after the election, we started going on white nationalist sites. 353 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,440 Speaker 1: We work with the Southern Poverty Law Sitner, and we 354 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: look at all these sites and one thing I noticed, 355 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 1: and one thing my team noticed, was that you could 356 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: put your credit card number in or your PayPal number 357 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: it and you could donate money. You could and by 358 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:59,679 Speaker 1: merchant by merchant guise, right, So we started calling the 359 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 1: credit card companies. We started calling these payment processing companies, 360 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 1: and you know what they told us. They said, oh, 361 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: we're with you, but you know, you have to talk 362 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 1: to the banks. And then the bank said, you know, 363 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,159 Speaker 1: you have to talk to the credit card companies. So 364 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: we start building the no Blood Money campaign, and we 365 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,440 Speaker 1: start building this platform, and you know, we're not quite 366 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,199 Speaker 1: done with it all when Charlotte's Felle happens. But the 367 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,400 Speaker 1: team goes in over the weekend, they like, get all 368 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: the tools together, and we start going public. We gave 369 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 1: the companies were like, we've been talking with you for months, 370 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: We've given you these lists of white nationalist groups, and 371 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 1: then within about twenty four hours they start sending us 372 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: a list of white nationalists organizations that they are cutting 373 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: off for processing fees. No law had changed exactly, and 374 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:48,639 Speaker 1: so to the extent of what institutions will allow to happen, 375 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: that will put us all in harm's way because it 376 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: serves some sort of interest. We all have to recognize 377 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: that that hasn't gone away, and that part of what 378 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: we have to do is really a double down on 379 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,439 Speaker 1: all of the vehicles that I believe actually get us 380 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: closer to real change. And I think that there are 381 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 1: no greater drivers right now than racial justice and gender justice, 382 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: not only because there are motivating forces if you think 383 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 1: about the Women's March, or if you think about the 384 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: uprisings over this summer, as some of the strongest vehicles 385 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 1: to actually getting people into the streets, to getting people mobilized, 386 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: but they also are forced multipliers and actually undoing the norms, 387 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 1: that practices, the ideas that got us into this in 388 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: the first place. And so we have to lead into 389 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,640 Speaker 1: those things. Not because a true democracy produces gender justice 390 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,959 Speaker 1: or produces racial justice. It's because racial justice and gender 391 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: justice actually get us to that true democracy. Moving towards 392 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 1: the private sector and corporate power was an incredibly smart approach. 393 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:01,120 Speaker 1: But one of your biggest targets was Facebook, and I 394 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: think Rashad you understood before many many people did, the 395 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: really negative role that Facebook played and being literally an 396 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: organizing tool for the far right, for white supremacists, for extremists. 397 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: Explain to our listeners you know what brought that insight 398 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 1: to your mind and how you then proceeded. At first, 399 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter activists were being docked on the platform, 400 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 1: and so we sort of reached out and we started 401 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 1: pushing and we tried to get some action, and we 402 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: were getting all sorts of stalling that just didn't make sense, 403 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 1: like why wouldn't you just deal with this right And 404 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 1: then you know, there was a woman by the name 405 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,160 Speaker 1: of Korean Gains, woman who was having a mental health episode. 406 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:47,439 Speaker 1: She had her Facebook Live on. She was having an 407 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 1: interaction with police. Her young son was there in the 408 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 1: city of Baltimore, and the police called Facebook and had 409 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: them turn off her Facebook Live and Korene Gains ends 410 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: up debt and there's no video, and we were like, 411 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: what are the rules here? Like what like, what's the 412 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,120 Speaker 1: rules around working with law on first? And we found 413 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:12,160 Speaker 1: out that they were actually providing information to law enforcement 414 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 1: about activists without warrants, without you know, sort of the 415 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:20,160 Speaker 1: proper sort of protocols. And seeing how this platform relied 416 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 1: on our data in many ways, mind our data and 417 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,120 Speaker 1: then could sell it, could use it, could do all 418 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 1: sorts of things with it, we recognize that there had 419 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 1: to be new rules, and we were pushing Facebook around 420 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: a number of things, and we got them to agree 421 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: to do a civil rights audit, so we dealt with that, 422 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 1: and then we found out in eighteen that why we 423 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 1: had been at the table, I think of those end 424 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: of while we've been at the table, why I'd been 425 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: going back and forth with Facebook, they had hired a 426 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 1: pr for UH called Definers to attack us. And I 427 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,199 Speaker 1: only found out from the New York Times. The New 428 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 1: York Times called us and maybe you have comment on 429 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 1: this story we just published, and like what story we 430 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: just published? And I at this point we had been 431 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 1: at the table. They had been talking about the uder 432 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:04,679 Speaker 1: we have been working with them, and it was like 433 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:09,199 Speaker 1: very clear that they had no intent on moving. It 434 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: was a charade, wasn't it. That's exactly what it is. 435 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: We will always lose with both Facebook and even with 436 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: big corporate power in Washington or in Silicon Valley, we 437 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: will always lose in the back rooms. If we don't 438 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: have millions of people lined up at the front door, 439 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 1: we'll be right back. We know we still face these 440 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: structural obstacles to democracy. All the progress that was made 441 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,640 Speaker 1: in turning out voters and the huge numbers of black 442 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: voters who made the difference not just in in the 443 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: Georgia win for Biden, but in electing two new senators 444 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 1: in Georgia, uh Tino voters, Native American voters in Arizona. 445 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: You know, we saw what it means when voting actually 446 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,160 Speaker 1: reflects the electorate of our country. So now we know 447 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 1: that there's a concerted effort in a majority of states 448 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: at this moment to try to make it hard again. 449 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: So what will Color of Change and all of your 450 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 1: allies be doing to make sure that your voice has 451 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 1: heard in this effort as well? Well, we are gonna 452 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: be there three d and sixty five days a year, 453 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 1: and so part of what we've already pivoted to is 454 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,879 Speaker 1: the base building grassroots work and voter contact work and 455 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 1: engagement work we do year round, focusing on places like Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, 456 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 1: and Georgia which all has Senate races, and focusing on 457 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: places that will have key races in the house around 458 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: the country, pushing the Biden administration like part of our 459 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: job is to hold the line between what a real 460 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: saluttions and fake solutions and make sure that a vast 461 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: administration with a lot of people doing a lot of 462 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 1: different things, is constantly focusing on giving us the narrative, 463 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: the tools, and the real change that we can go 464 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: out and sell. You know, one thing that I've you know, 465 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: told to focus in the administration is budgets are moral 466 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 1: documents more than anything that we say, and ensuring that 467 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: the budgets match the aspirations that if we say we 468 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: want to hold people accounting for corruption and stop prosecuting 469 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 1: low level crimes, that that actually has to show up 470 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: in a d o J budget, because prosecuting corruption is 471 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: actually more expensive than going after people who can't afford 472 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 1: lawyers and researchers and and um infrastructure to defend them. 473 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: And so that's what we're gonna be doing, and then 474 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 1: you know, to be very clear, we're gonna be fighting 475 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: against the rollbacks of this. And you know, one thing 476 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 1: that I've been thinking about since, you know, we led 477 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: our campaign against the American Legislative Exchange Council ASKS, which 478 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: was so instrumental in passing so many of those voter 479 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 1: ID laws, the discriminatory idea laws, you know, the one 480 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: in Texas that says you can vote with your gun 481 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 1: license but not your student I D which are like 482 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 1: really just on their face clear about what they're trying 483 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 1: to do. You know, we have been working to wold 484 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 1: corporations accountable. I just recently had a conversation with our 485 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: Reverend Barbera about this in North Carolina, about the corporations 486 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 1: in North Carolina that have stayed silent as their black 487 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: and brown employees are attacks on their voting rights. The 488 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 1: corporations in Georgia, the Coca Colas and Deltas and and companies, 489 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 1: what are they gonna say when their employee base are 490 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: being attacked in terms of their ability to vote and 491 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 1: cast a vote. And so part of this is, yes, 492 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 1: we've got to be in those legislatures, but I'm also 493 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 1: very clear that the political project of many of those 494 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 1: legislators is to like hold onto power as long as 495 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 1: they possibly can, even if the people don't want them 496 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 1: there exactly. And so what we have to do is 497 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 1: go to the institutions that say by our products, use 498 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: our services, and say that you can't come for our 499 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: money by day and take away our vote by night. 500 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: I love that well. I just can't tell you how 501 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 1: much I love talking to Rashad. I love your sensibility, 502 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: I love your strategic understanding of what we're up against 503 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 1: in the in the world today. I want to end 504 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 1: on a personal note. You've been, as I pointed out earlier, 505 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 1: on the front lines of activism. Now you lead really 506 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 1: one of the most consequential racial justice activist organizations in 507 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 1: our country in the twenty one century. What makes you hopeful? 508 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:57,959 Speaker 1: I mean, how do you get up in the morning 509 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:02,479 Speaker 1: and feel like sometimes it's pushing the same rock up 510 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:04,959 Speaker 1: the hill that you're pushed yesterday and the day before. 511 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: But you just, you know, get your energy up, you 512 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: put on that hap that you know it's your trademark, 513 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 1: and you start pushing. How do you keep yourself motivated? 514 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 1: You know? So I have so much hope and optimism 515 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: in this summer. You know, being quarantined before the uprisings 516 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: was really top I'm a people person. I like to 517 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: be out in the world and spend most of my 518 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: time on the road in the other world, and so 519 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 1: it was really tough, and then the uprisings happened. Up 520 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: until the uprisings, the best that many of us thought 521 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 1: could happen was we would uplift investigative journalism and we 522 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 1: would clap outside of our windows for essential workers who 523 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 1: deserved all of the support and love. But it was 524 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: racial justice that got people into the streets, got people 525 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 1: motivated to see people of all races, all walks of 526 00:32:55,800 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: life coming into the streets. Employees incorporations pushing their companies 527 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: to have to say things that they previously did not 528 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: believe they had to, and certainly many of them did 529 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 1: not want to. You know, Color of Change does not 530 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 1: take direct corporate dollars. And every morning I was waking 531 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 1: up to all of these announcements of corporations giving us 532 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 1: money or you like, well, they can agree to the 533 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 1: things we max and to doo, but we're not going 534 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 1: to take this money. But it was like, you know, 535 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: but it was a surreal moment of saying, like, so 536 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 1: much is possible, right, and to think about the deep 537 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 1: pain that had to get there, but also the opportunity 538 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 1: to create generational change. And as I see millions in pond, 539 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: millions of Americans sometimes taking their first steps into activism, 540 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 1: believing that something new is possible. That gives me so 541 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 1: much hope. What a great way to wrap up our conversation, 542 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 1: and I hope our listeners will learn more about the 543 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: work of Color of Change because I so admire the 544 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: way you're on the front law nds of what real 545 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 1: change looks like. Thank you so much, Rashad. Thank you 546 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 1: so much for having its an honor. To learn more 547 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 1: about the incredible work Rashad and his colleagues are doing, 548 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 1: go to Color of Change dot org. And if you 549 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 1: want to hear more about Reverend William Barber, who were 550 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:26,359 Speaker 1: shod mentioned, check out the very first episode of this podcast, 551 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 1: You and Me Both, which is about faith. It's one 552 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 1: of my favorite episodes, in part because Reverend Barber has 553 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: so many profound things to say about how his faith 554 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: fuels his work for racial and social justice. But I 555 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 1: want to end today's episode with a question for you. 556 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 1: What do you think about the state of our democracy? 557 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,319 Speaker 1: Do you know someone who is working hard to make 558 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 1: it stronger? I'd love to hear from you with your ideas, 559 00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,720 Speaker 1: so please send an email to You and Me Both 560 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 1: pod at gmail dot com. You and Me Both is 561 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,439 Speaker 1: brought to you by I Heart Radio. We're produced by 562 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:15,319 Speaker 1: Julie Subran, Kathleen Russo and Lauren Peterson, with help from 563 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: Juma Aberdeen, Nicky Etour, Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Brianna Johnson, 564 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 1: Nick Merrill, Rob Russo, and Lona Valmorrow. Our engineer is 565 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 1: Zack McNeice, and the original music is by Forrest Gray. 566 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: If you like You and Me Both, spread the word, 567 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 1: post about it on social media, send it to your friends, 568 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 1: and make sure to hit the subscribe button so you're 569 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 1: the first to know when a new episode drops. You 570 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 1: can do that on I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 571 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,839 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. See you next week.