1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:26,079 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Welcome to the show they 5 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: called me, Ben, Mike and Patriots Matt and Noel lare 6 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: on adventures, but we'll be returning very soon. We're joined 7 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: as always with our super producer Paul, Mission Control decand 8 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: most importantly, you are you. You are here, and that 9 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: makes this stuff they don't want you to know. We're 10 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: diving into a strange one today, fellow conspiracy realist. It's 11 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: a story that you may be familiar with if you 12 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: are if you are a huge fan of sports. It's 13 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: a story that you may've heard a headline about, but 14 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:07,039 Speaker 1: you've never seen it fully explored. We're diving into a 15 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: world of gambling. We're diving into the uh depths of corruption, 16 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: into the heights of financial shenanigans and ethics violations. It's 17 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:24,119 Speaker 1: a mystery that is being unraveled that occurred here in 18 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: the US, uh not too long ago. What are we 19 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: talking about? Well, to answer that question, we're going to 20 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: defer to an expert, as we always tried to do. 21 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 1: You know that we want to bring you primary sources, 22 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 1: people with experience and expertise in the field, and that's 23 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 1: why today I am over the moon to welcome to 24 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: the show our guest, the sports journalist, writer and creator 25 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 1: of the Whistleblower podcast, Tim Livingston. Tim, thanks for coming 26 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: on the show today. Thanks for having me Ben So you, 27 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: you and I have talked a bit off air about 28 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: this story, which as the podcast is still coming out. 29 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,639 Speaker 1: Whistle Blower is a term that I think a lot 30 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: of people understand nowadays in the West. But whistle blower 31 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:25,799 Speaker 1: the podcast is diving into a very specific mystery. Could 32 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 1: you tell us just briefly, I want to be careful 33 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: not to spoil too much, just briefly what whistle blower 34 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: is about. How this story begins. The story begins with 35 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 1: a former whistle blower, and not the one that we 36 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: know about now. He has nothing with Russia or China 37 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,399 Speaker 1: or anywhere else. Um. He's a former NBA referee named 38 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: Tim Donnahe and Tim Donnahe for sports fans. Sports fans now, 39 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: Tim Donnahe as the most disgrace official in American sports history. 40 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: I think he has that title and Whoever, in second place, 41 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: it's a pretty distant second. Tim Donnage. He is looked 42 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: upon um as a pariah, and rightfully so. However, when 43 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 1: he got into trouble, he blew the whistle on That's 44 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: where we're going with us, Ben. He blew the whistle, 45 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: the proverbial whistle on a much bigger systemic issue um 46 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 1: within the NBA, and that issue was a culture of 47 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: refereeing in which players, coaches, and team personnel we're fraterizing 48 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: with referees, creating relationships with referees where just referees as 49 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: the police of this game, we're not being policed at all. 50 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: And it led to, in my opinion, corruption on an 51 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 1: unbelievable scale, both with Donnie himself and with other referees 52 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: at the time. And so that's what we dive into. 53 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: It's okay, the narrative has always been Donnie he was 54 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 1: a rogue criminal. It was just this guy, he is 55 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: the only one. And for me, I just never believed it. 56 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: I've watched so many NBA games that something just didn't 57 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: feel right. And so that's where we dive in from 58 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: is what happened? What what happened with Donnahe himself. And 59 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: then part two is what happened with his with his 60 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: former employer, what happened with the NBA, Well, what actually 61 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: happened behind the scenes. What now can we look at 62 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: thirteen years ago and peel back layer by layer and 63 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,159 Speaker 1: understand at a much deeper level. And that's where this 64 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: story gets really crazy because thirteen years later, more people 65 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 1: are willing to talk um, more information has come to 66 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:38,119 Speaker 1: light that might have trickled into the into the news 67 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: at some point, but that even the most ardent sports 68 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: fans don't really know. And so that's where we're going 69 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: with this, and that's the crux the podcast. So one 70 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 1: thing that is fascinating to me about this is your 71 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: inspiration because it sounds like you, you know, being a fan, 72 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:59,599 Speaker 1: very familiar with the bones of the story, at least 73 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,159 Speaker 1: the head lines we saw reported back in uh oh, 74 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:07,239 Speaker 1: back in two thousand and seven. I believe it started 75 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: started really the rubber really started hitting the road. But 76 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 1: it sounds like you had uh a tingle of your 77 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: spider sense almost right, a discrepancy. Something was rotten in Denmark. 78 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 1: There was a glitch in the matrix. One thing that 79 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 1: fascinates me about this is Uh, there's there's a line 80 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:33,359 Speaker 1: in the very beginning of the first episode where you 81 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: talk about how referees are supposed to be kind of shadows, right, 82 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 1: almost nonentities on on the court. Referees don't get noticed 83 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: until they make a call that you don't like. Right, 84 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: isn't that how how it usually works out? Exactly? And 85 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: what a what a weird profession? Right, you get booted 86 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: up by thousands upon thousands of people every single night. 87 00:05:57,480 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: You only get noticed when you mess up. You get 88 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: no act glades when you're the best of what you do, 89 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: and being the best of what you do means that 90 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 1: you're invisible, means that people have no idea, no idea 91 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: who you are. It means that the game they just 92 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 1: watched was they watched it without any inkling that there 93 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 1: was that there were officials, right, it was just the 94 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,720 Speaker 1: players playing the game. And that means that you did 95 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: the best job you could have done. The game was 96 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 1: being played in its purest form. However, for basketball fans, 97 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 1: we know that every single game that we've ever watched, 98 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,599 Speaker 1: there's been at least three or four times you're going 99 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: to scream with the TV that that call was bull right, 100 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 1: that's we all do as sports fans. We can't help it. 101 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: We're we're all couch coaches or whatever you wanna call us. 102 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:47,279 Speaker 1: And in the NBA, that's that's what exists on a 103 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: on every single night. And for me as a fan 104 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 1: growing up, I love basketball. I played basketball my entire life, 105 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: and so I've been cognizant of the effect that a 106 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: referee can have on a game since I was five 107 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: years old. And when I was a kid, I used 108 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:05,480 Speaker 1: to a really bad temper and I used to scream 109 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 1: at referees. I used to get so mad at referees 110 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: when they didn't make the call that that I thought 111 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: was right, in rectly right. These guys are getting paid 112 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: ten dollars an hour back in the early nineties, and 113 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: they don't want to be there, and the last thing 114 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: they wanted some little act screaming at him. I was 115 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: that kid. And then as I got older, I realized 116 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: that these are human beings that you can manipulate them, right, 117 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: that if you're nice to them, if you chat with 118 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: him before the game, if you make them feel special, 119 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: they are going to give you the benefit of more calls. 120 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: So I've been fascinated by by that by the ability 121 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 1: to influence a referee for my entire life and for 122 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: this story though I having played basketball my whole life 123 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: and having been in love with the sport forever, watching 124 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: some of these games that took place in the early 125 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: two thousands and mid two thousand's, before this scandal came out, 126 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: before it was exposed that Donnie he Before Donnie he 127 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: exposed the idea. I can't say that he exposed everything, right, 128 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: he he just gave us an inkling of the culture 129 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: and of how things operated behind the scenes. When that 130 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: all came out, it made sense to me, and because 131 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: I watched some of these games, some of those games 132 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: were not right there. They weren't officials having a bad day. 133 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: In my opinion, there was no way there was There 134 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: was motive, There was something behind it, and that's what 135 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: we're exploring in this podcast. Ben that you mentioned, I'm 136 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: pretty transparent about, like that's where I'm coming from, not 137 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: coming from I'm a journalist, but also i have eyes 138 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:36,079 Speaker 1: and I've watched these games, and so I'm not shy 139 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,079 Speaker 1: about the fact that I'm entering this investigation with bias 140 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: because you can't tell me the two thousand to Western 141 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: Conference Finals were three officials just having a bad game. 142 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: I don't, I won't believe you. It didn't happen. It 143 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: wasn't just one or two bad calls. It was an 144 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 1: incredible amount in an entire game, and especially in an 145 00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: entire fourth quarters worth of egregious miss calls. And for me, 146 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: that's where I approached this investigation, where something was something 147 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: was amiss, What was it? How did it work? And 148 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 1: that's what we really explore on the podcast. You've raised 149 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:14,559 Speaker 1: a fascinating point here. It's it's something that I immediately 150 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: thought of when when you and I were first talking 151 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 1: off every few weeks ago about whistle lower and you 152 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: were telling us some of the nuts and bolts of 153 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: of the situation, which are frankly disturbing. I started thinking 154 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: about the tremendous paradox that that's inherent and being a referee, 155 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: one of the most powerful people on the court is 156 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 1: one of the uh least compensated. They're making peanuts, you know, 157 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: you get what is it? I think it's an average 158 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: of a hundred and fifty thousand on the low end 159 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 1: per year to a little over five hundred thousand or so. Uh, 160 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: And that's like depending on how you break down the math. 161 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: That's what some of the players are making, you know, 162 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: that's like a fraction of what they're making in a game. 163 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: And so I could see very easily, um, the opportunity 164 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 1: for someone who is unethical to uh, whether through carrot 165 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,679 Speaker 1: or stick, incentivize the referee to make a little bit 166 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:24,679 Speaker 1: more scratch. And we know you know this. This reminded 167 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: me a little bit of the uh the conspiracy theories 168 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 1: regarding Michael Jordan's and gambling, right, which is which is 169 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 1: something we've explored the past episode of I'm Ted talking 170 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 1: a little bit here, but I wanted to outline that 171 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: because I think a lot of people, myself included, to 172 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: be transparent, didn't really consider the discrepancy there the fact 173 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 1: that like, you know, I'm I'm making two grand for 174 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:58,679 Speaker 1: the whole year. That's what I'm gonna make unless I'm 175 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 1: moonlight right, uh somewhere else. And these folks that I'm 176 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: calling that I'm making calls on no matter what happens 177 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 1: to them, win or lose. They're they're multimillionaires. So it 178 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 1: doesn't seem like it would take much for the push. 179 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: But okay, so so the idea of rigged sports. It's 180 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: it's tremendously controversial because any fan of sports, uh, any 181 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 1: fan of any sport wants the rules to be followed right. Ostensibly, 182 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 1: we want the game to be competitive, we want the 183 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: athletes at the top of their abilities, and we want 184 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 1: the rules followed so that a win is a real 185 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: win and not invalidated, uh and not turning into some 186 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: like mafia esque uh. Con job, could you tell us 187 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: a little bit about what Doneghie was going through that 188 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: that pushed him to this like before? Like okay, so 189 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: he clearly was a crooked ref right, there's no question 190 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 1: about that. Is that no question? And to your point, 191 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,199 Speaker 1: think about it, right, if going back to the Michael 192 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: Jordan Bulls, think about how much power referee has Michael 193 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,439 Speaker 1: Jordan's Scottie Pippen stuff from the court. A referee could 194 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: give both of them two technical fouls for no reason 195 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: right when they walk on the court, eject them both 196 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 1: from the game, and the Bulls have to play the 197 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: rest of the game without Michael Jordan Scottie Pippen. No 198 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: referee has ever done that and probably ever. Well, that's 199 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: that's a little bit too obvious. But think about how 200 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 1: much power referee has right, because he can also call 201 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: two tiki tach fouls on Scottie Pippen and two tikki 202 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,199 Speaker 1: tach fouls on Michael Jordan's and forced them to watch 203 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: the rest of the for the first quarter from the bench. 204 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: And if you're betting against the spread, that's hugely advantageous 205 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: if you're a referee and you have money on the game, right, 206 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 1: so against the bulls in that game. So a referee 207 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: has incredible, an incredible amount of power. And for those 208 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: for sports fans who don't want to believe that there's 209 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: any possible option in sports, just using basketball as an example, 210 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: the referees, to your point, make one sometimes as much 211 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 1: as the guys who are yelling at them, screaming their 212 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: face night after night after night. How can they not 213 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: over time or immediately create How can there not be biased? Right? 214 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: These guys aren't robots or humans. And with guys that 215 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: have ego like Tim donnahe that And again I don't 216 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 1: think Donnie He's the only referee that was fixing games 217 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 1: over the course of history basketball. I think that would 218 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: be incredibly naive to believe that. The question for me 219 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: is how many were there and how high up did 220 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: it go. So an episode two, we interview Michael franziz 221 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:46,439 Speaker 1: Uh you might have seen in Netflix's Fear City, one 222 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 1: of the most brilliant members of the Mafia all time, 223 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 1: a guy who was running schemes that we're making millions 224 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: of millions of dollars a day and just a very 225 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 1: He was a criminal, but he was a damn good one. 226 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:02,079 Speaker 1: And he talks about how he had two NBA referees 227 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 1: on his payroll in the nineties that weren't Tim donnahe right, 228 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: So there's just this is one monster with two NBA 229 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 1: refs on his payroll that we're not the guy that 230 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 1: we're focusing on. And that gives you an idea of 231 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: a This is what Franzy says. It was easy to 232 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: fix a game. It's not hard when it's against the spread. 233 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: It's hard if you need one team to win, right. 234 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: So some of the games that I'm referencing from the 235 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: playoffs and finals where there was the foul discrepancies. You know, 236 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: there's one team is shooting sixty free throws, there are 237 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: teams shooting thirty. That that's where it gets egregious and 238 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: as fans you know, those are the games that we 239 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: still talk about this day because we a lot of 240 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: us don't feel that those are on the up and up. 241 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: But when it comes just to the spread, that's easy. 242 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: If the Bulls are supposed to win by by ten 243 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: and you got a bet on the other team to 244 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: to cover that spread for you know, if the Bulls 245 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: need to win by nine or less for you to 246 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: win your bet, Yeah, I called two quick fouls in 247 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: Michael Jordan's put on the bench, and you're probably in 248 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: really good shape for the rest that that right there 249 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: probably affects the point spread by three or four points immediately. 250 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: And if the Bulls are up by eleven and in 251 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: the fourth cor start calling more fouls than Bulls and 252 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: and you as a referee can really dictate whether the 253 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 1: Bulls went by eight points or twelve points. So that's 254 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: exactly and that's where that's where it gets interesting. And 255 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 1: that's where we as fans have to look at the 256 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: system and look at how easy it is for these 257 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: guys who manipulate a game and put in The NBA 258 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: has put in checks and balances since Donnie. They've done 259 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: an okay job of improving the system. There are a 260 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: lot more referees who are anonymous, who are invisible, who 261 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: do a great job. However, there are still referees that 262 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: have been refereeing for five plus years who one of them. 263 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: Scott Foster was Donnie's best friend and him and Tim 264 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 1: Donna he talked a d thirty or four times on 265 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: the phone at the height of the scheme from October 266 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 1: two thousand and six to March two thousand seven, on 267 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: the phone that Donna he used as what the FBI said, Uh, Donnie, 268 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 1: he used this phone for gambling, primarily for gambling related purposes. 269 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: And Scott Foster's the top official in in the NBA, right, 270 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: So there's all this circumstantial evidence that points to Scott 271 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: Foster and Donnie He having a relationship that minimally needs 272 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: to be explored further. Um and this guy's being when 273 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: we watched the NBA Finals this year, Scott Foster is 274 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: gonna ref two of those games. And that's the guy 275 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: that that I'm supposed to trust has integrity, and then 276 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 1: I'm supposed to trust you know, it's going to create 277 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: an even playing field for both these teams and not 278 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: let his ego or bias or anything else infiltrate. Yeah, okay, 279 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: I don't We're we got a long way to go. Um, 280 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: But yeah, when it comes to the scandal this time 281 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 1: in two thousand and seven, I think it went and 282 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: this is what we explored in the podcast. I believe 283 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: that it went really, really deep, and it's really fascinating, um, 284 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: what Donnie he was doing. And then it's also for 285 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: me on the conspiracy side, way more interesting, Um, what 286 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: the league, what the NBA was doing to make this 287 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:06,479 Speaker 1: problem go away. So yeah, let's let's explore a couple 288 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 1: of those points. So first off, to me, it's still 289 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:13,640 Speaker 1: you probably hear me laughing in the background, folks, It's 290 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 1: still hilarious to me when when you Tim we were 291 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: first telling us in our earlier conversations about a gambling phone, 292 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: Like I've heard of a burner phone, but I've never 293 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: known someone who gambles, uh so frequently that at some 294 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 1: point they're like, I need a different phone for this. 295 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 1: And it's like several burner phones and this one was 296 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 1: like primarily the gambling phone, but he hit Donnighie himself. 297 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,199 Speaker 1: There were so many tentacles he was betting with at 298 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: least two people that we know about that. We're part 299 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 1: of the scandal that were the FBI found at least two. 300 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: We speculate that he was probably betting with three, four 301 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 1: or five other people, right, Hey, Ben, can you place 302 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,159 Speaker 1: you know this is the pick tonight? Put five or 303 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: bucks on the bulls for me and kick me back, 304 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,640 Speaker 1: you know, three hundred um, Just bring the cash next 305 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: time I see you. That that's where it gets crazy, 306 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: and you gotta wonder with if you look at Donnie's 307 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 1: phone records, think about how easy it is for that 308 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 1: money to move with without a trace, if it's just cash, 309 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: if it's if it's at levels that aren't in the millions, 310 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: which are what was being bet on on donna He's 311 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 1: games and the professional betting markets. When Tim Donnie reft 312 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 1: a game, there were millions of dollars being moved by 313 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: the mafia, by the Gambino crime family, and by various 314 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 1: professional betting syndicates on each game that he refereed. Tim 315 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,119 Speaker 1: Donnie referee two hundred sixty games over the course of 316 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:42,959 Speaker 1: the scheme. So you do the math where they're hundreds 317 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: of millions wagered in one on Tim Donnie's games by 318 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 1: organized crime and other shady outlets at least, right, we 319 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,439 Speaker 1: know it's hundreds of millions where they're billions maybe, And 320 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 1: that's crazy. That's one referees games. So now expand that 321 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:00,360 Speaker 1: there's fifty three referees in the NBA, and let's look 322 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: at college. College is even easier. M hofficers playing Northeastern. 323 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: Anybody watching that game, Anybody's gonna notice if a couple 324 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:09,959 Speaker 1: of grands placed here and there and and all over 325 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: the country and Northeastern shoots sixty two free throws and 326 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: Hofstra only shootsies five, probably not. So that's where again, 327 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 1: as basketball fans, I think the big thing I would 328 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: love to see from our podcast is just a demand 329 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 1: for better checks and balances, demand for greater transparency, and 330 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: just a demand that our game, the game that we 331 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: love is, is improved from from an officiating standpoint. Because 332 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: we're still not there yet, And we'll pause here for 333 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: a word from our sponsor before we return to examine 334 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:50,400 Speaker 1: this strange tale of conspiracy, corruption and sports with Tim Livingston, 335 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: and we're back. This is to me one are the 336 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:06,200 Speaker 1: roots of the dilemma? First though, I have to ask, 337 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:08,679 Speaker 1: and there's a question a lot of our fellow listeners 338 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:16,360 Speaker 1: are wondering now the the process you described is so subtle, right, 339 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: and it's so easy to make, uh, you know, to 340 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: to make ten million dollars through a series of relatively 341 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: innocuous seeming bets instead of one big ten million pot. 342 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: This stuff being so easy to miss. It makes me 343 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 1: wonder how someone got wind of this. How did this 344 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: guy go from being, you know, one one of the 345 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 1: top most established referees in the business to this pariah 346 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 1: to this person who was I believe I believe one 347 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:54,919 Speaker 1: of the descriptions use is uh is scapegoated, right, like 348 00:20:55,040 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 1: NBA wanted a bad guy. So to answer your question, UM, 349 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 1: Donnie he was Donnie. He was betting on his own games, 350 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 1: so we can assume if he's betting in his own games. 351 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: I think we proved pretty definitively in the first couple 352 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: episodes that Donnie he was fixing any game that he 353 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 1: bet on and was refereing, obviously, right, I mean his 354 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: the FBI made him admit that he at least subconsciously 355 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: might have manipulated games that he was referring and had 356 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:28,120 Speaker 1: money on. Um. But I think we proved again without 357 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:30,919 Speaker 1: a real I don't think there's any doubt after the 358 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,880 Speaker 1: first couple episodes of our podcast that Donnie he knew 359 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 1: what he was doing and then he was fixing those games. 360 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: So Donnie, he is fixing games for four years. And 361 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: what I think is interesting in two thousand and seven 362 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: when he got caught, if it wasn't for the scheme 363 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 1: getting too big, if it wasn't for this guy, Jimmy 364 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 1: Bob Bob Batista, Donna, he's not really friend from high school, 365 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 1: but a guy that he grew up with and known 366 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: his entire life and became a professional gambler, if it 367 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:00,199 Speaker 1: wasn't for Jimmy Batissa getting involved. Jimmy Jimmy Batista is 368 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:04,360 Speaker 1: um at the time, addicted to pills, cocaine, and everything 369 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:08,200 Speaker 1: else under the sun that you could smoke, swallow or 370 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:10,920 Speaker 1: um in hale in any in any way. I'm trying 371 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: to think, I haven't done drugs in awhile, So this 372 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,679 Speaker 1: is I hope my wife is listening for that reason too, 373 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 1: for the fact that I started over how to how 374 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: to do drugs. But Batista was an admitted addict. I 375 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: mean he went to rehab towards the end of the scheme. 376 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 1: And if it wasn't for Batista being in that state 377 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: and um, he went into debt. He was he was 378 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: getting he's winning of his picks, which is a professional gambler. 379 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: That's how you print, That's how you make, that's how 380 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 1: you go buy an island. Right, you're printing money, like 381 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: you know, invest It's like, hey, invest in Apple. There's 382 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: gonna be coming in Google. That's gonna I p o 383 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: on like two thousand three. Invest in You know it's 384 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 1: it's not fair. You're not playing on an even playing field. 385 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: But Batista, Um, because of his addiction and because of 386 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 1: his hubris, went into debt and started talking and he 387 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 1: mentioned it to too many people. The scheme got too big, 388 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,439 Speaker 1: there was too much money moving, and ultimately it just 389 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: came down to him, um, talking to a informant. It 390 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: was an informant for the Gambino crime family, and Um, 391 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,400 Speaker 1: they caught it on a wire tap and boom, your 392 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 1: FBI is like, wait what you have a referee in 393 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 1: your in your pocket. Um, And they started listening and 394 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 1: they started, you know, they did their due diligence and 395 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: their the FBI. They figured it out and a week 396 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:27,439 Speaker 1: or two and and Donnie he was the guy, and 397 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,919 Speaker 1: they knew. What's interesting, Ben, to your point is if 398 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 1: Donnie he kept it relatively small, if it was what 399 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 1: he was doing the first couple of years with a 400 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: couple of friends, and the circle was small, circle was tight, 401 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: would he still be refereeing in the NBA today? And 402 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: I believe the answers yes, Unequivalentally, I think if a 403 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: referee was doing this today, we'd have no real way 404 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:55,159 Speaker 1: of knowing. It's just it's completely undetectable, and that's a problem. 405 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 1: So that's a big problem. And so Donna Hee And 406 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,400 Speaker 1: if you listen to Tommy Martine, who was the middleman 407 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: between Donnie and Batista, Tim Martinez says, they're having the 408 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 1: time of their lives. They were making gobs of money, 409 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,880 Speaker 1: and there were criminals, but they never thought they'd get caught. 410 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: And when criminals don't think they're gonna get caught and 411 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 1: think that they're just gonna make this kind of money 412 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 1: and live this kind of lifestyle forever, um, they have fun. 413 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 1: And so Donnie he eventually realized the FBI started knocking, 414 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 1: and he quickly went and confessed everything, became a cooperator, 415 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: because that's how he only got fifteen months in prison 416 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: from all this, But that's what's interesting. Could this have 417 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: gone on in perpetuity? And again I think the answer 418 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 1: is yes, And does does it go on today? Which 419 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 1: it seems like there's I don't know, no, no for 420 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 1: everybody listening. Of course, Uh, the the entirety whistleblowers is 421 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: not out yet. The story is ongoing and you should 422 00:24:56,119 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 1: check it out today. Uh. But having listened to the show, 423 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 1: what I can say is I am per like I 424 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: live in the world of conspiracies, man um, and they're 425 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,199 Speaker 1: there are a ton of conspiracy theories. They're just easily 426 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: easily debunked or disproven or don't add up. But I 427 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: would say, this is not a conspiracy theory. This is 428 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 1: an actual conspiracy. Donnie conspired to do these things. And 429 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 1: as I was listening, you know, one thing that struck 430 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:32,119 Speaker 1: me is to I massively appreciate you saying at the 431 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: very top, look, I'm a journalist. I came in with it. 432 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: I'm convinced something is up here, something's amiss, because as 433 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,160 Speaker 1: I was listening, I ended up completely agreeing. So there 434 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 1: might not be like, uh, the FBI's equivalent, There might 435 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 1: not be something that meets the FBI's equivalent of a 436 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:56,120 Speaker 1: smoking gun or a fire with Foster with some other 437 00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: close relationships. But there's a lot of smoke. You show 438 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,639 Speaker 1: a lot of smoke in this show, and it makes 439 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 1: me think that the the money and the opportunity is 440 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,160 Speaker 1: probably too good for some people to walk away from 441 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 1: for a number of reasons, like human ego, like you said, 442 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,719 Speaker 1: but also just the financial aspect. I wanted to ask, 443 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,440 Speaker 1: you know, as an outsider, I, like many people, many 444 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 1: of our fellow listeners, am not a professional referee. How 445 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: well did these guys all know each other? That's that's 446 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,439 Speaker 1: one of the big questions I think a lot of 447 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,920 Speaker 1: people have. Is it like a clock in, clock out job? 448 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: Are you like, once you get in the rarefied air 449 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:45,359 Speaker 1: of being a professional NBA referee, don't you kind of 450 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 1: know of all the other people in that sphere? Absolutely? Um, 451 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: these guys have all been working together for forever. They 452 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 1: exist in a very strange bubble and right now, for 453 00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,479 Speaker 1: those that are actually in Orlando, that's a funny term 454 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 1: to use. Can during that the NBA right now is 455 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 1: in a literal bubble. But referees is only about fifty 456 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: five NBA referees reffing per season. Um, most of them 457 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 1: for the most part. I mean it's some of them 458 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 1: only last two or three years and get canned. Um. 459 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: The ones who make it though, they referee forever. They're 460 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: in the league for five, sometimes twenty five plus years, 461 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 1: and they become synonymous with the show. And that's what's interesting, right, 462 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: And that's what we what we're exploring, is how much 463 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: of this is entertainment and how much of basketball professional 464 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: basketball is legitimate competition And where did those lines blur? 465 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: But the referees all know each other very well for 466 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 1: the most part. Some of them hate each other. Some 467 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 1: of them think that, um, you know, referee X might 468 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 1: think referee wise the worst referee ever, and you know 469 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 1: he's a show off and he makes the game all 470 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,880 Speaker 1: about himself, and you know those some of those things 471 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 1: came to light actually after Donneghee scandal, the NBA commissioned 472 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 1: its own report. You know, like we're gonna we're gonna 473 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,440 Speaker 1: really nail down and look at our system and look 474 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 1: at our culture and and fix what's wrong, right, and 475 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: we're gonna pay a lawyer to do it. So this 476 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 1: lawyer is going to be he's an independent. He's been 477 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 1: completely independent this investigation is not going to try and 478 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 1: um you know, cast cast out on some of the 479 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: more salacious things that have been um alleged during the scandal. 480 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 1: This is an investigation we can all trust. And so 481 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 1: the Pedalos report, which is the NBA report that I'm 482 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: referring to after after Donnie's scandal, it still says it 483 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: looks at NBA referee relationships and it talks about some 484 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 1: of this stuff. Right, how some of these guys look 485 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: at Dick Pavetta, who's the most senior official during this time, 486 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 1: and think that he was far too um how do 487 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 1: we say, how should I say? I mean intertwined in 488 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 1: the game, that he made the game about himself, right, 489 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 1: which Corey, my definition of what makes a good referee 490 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 1: is exact opposite thing that you should do. Dick Pavetta, 491 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 1: Corny and Donnie had an American Airlines pilot that he 492 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: would call after every game to and this again according 493 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 1: to Donna, I can't prove this in our talk with 494 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: with um, excuse me, the stewardess American Airline stewart ists, 495 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 1: but he used to call a stewart as friend of 496 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: his after every game and to get a report on 497 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: how much airtime he got during that game. So if 498 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 1: that's true, that's really bad, right, that's really really bad. 499 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 1: But but another interesting thing been to your point, fifteen 500 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 1: or so referees again tight fraternity, not that many. Fifteen 501 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 1: hail from Delaware County, Pennsylvania, hail from the greater Philadelphia area, which, 502 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: over the course of of refereeing in the eighties and nineties, 503 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: two thousand's and and now in a lot of referees 504 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 1: hail from this one area of Philadelphia and which, as 505 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 1: we find out in the podcast, is a gambling hotbed. 506 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: And that's where Donna he's from, and Steve Jaffey and 507 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: Joey Crawford and if you know NBA referees, I could, 508 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: I could go on and on, but they all hail 509 00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 1: from this one area in and around Philadelphia. So it's 510 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: it's certainly suspicious. It's not really a meritocracy. It's incredibly Donna, 511 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: he's a product of nepotism. His uncle was an NBA referee, 512 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: his father was a college referee. So yeah, all these guys, 513 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 1: it's gotten better, I think referees now, it's it's definitely 514 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: more of a meritocracy as far as I can tell um, 515 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 1: but really at the time it was who you knew 516 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: and who your dad was or who your uncle was. 517 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: I mean, that's an insane because we know that nepotism 518 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 1: often wins the day over meritocracy and any number of 519 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 1: fields or pursuits. But the appeal of the appeal of 520 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: sports in general is the idea that through one's own 521 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: hard work, focused practice, and natural talent, you can leave 522 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: everything else of that's outside of the court off the 523 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 1: court when you play the game. And for that not 524 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 1: to be the case, it's got to be just a 525 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 1: profound punch in the gut, you know, especially for a 526 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:07,479 Speaker 1: lot of kids who, like you, were growing up living, breathing, 527 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: loving basketball, you know. Uh, and now to find that 528 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 1: this may very well be rigged. I mean, it's understandable 529 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: that people would say, well, this is a bad apple situation, right, 530 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: this is a bad actor. It's a one off in 531 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: the NBA. You know, as you've explored, the NBA goes 532 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 1: into crisis mode kind of and their pr and their 533 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 1: damage control. But one of the big twists that comes about, 534 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: there are two big twists I think that that are 535 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 1: going to be startling is first, the NBA's damage control, 536 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: their pr their report it uh, it didn't do the 537 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: best job persuading people that this was a one off. 538 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: And uh, I think Donna, Donna Gi himself didn't agree 539 00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 1: with with their findings. And I know this because of 540 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 1: another big twist in our story, which is Tim, you 541 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 1: talked to him. Everybody should look if you're not familiar 542 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 1: with this character. We want to establish this. Tim Donneghie 543 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 1: is alive today and you, Tim have had like multiple 544 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 1: conversations with him, multiple And this is we start off. 545 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: And what I'll say now that we're a little farther 546 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: because people have asked me since we started, when we 547 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 1: started this podcast, the reason I had access to Donnie 548 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 1: is because Donnie and I were very friendly. I'm the 549 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 1: only when I was writing for The Post Game, which 550 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 1: was a Yahoo site, I'm back in. I'm the first one, 551 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 1: I think, the only person, at least you know, according 552 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 1: to Google search results, which I've done. You know, I've 553 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 1: Google searched this ardently over the past eight years. I 554 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 1: think the only one who said that publicly right that 555 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 1: I believe what Tim Donnie He's saying about about the 556 00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: culture of the NBA. I said in so many words. Donnie. 557 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 1: We know Donna he is, He's not the best guy, 558 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 1: but he's also I think he's a scapegoat for a 559 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: bigger systemic issue. And I think that the reason I'm 560 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 1: the only one to have written those words um or 561 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 1: something far more eloquent in my actual article hopefully UM there. 562 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 1: I think the reason I'm the one who was able 563 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: to say this is because I wasn't employed by the NBA. Right. 564 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 1: If you're an NBA beat writer and you believe what 565 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 1: Tim Donna he's saying, you can't say that. You're not 566 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 1: going to get access to any locker room, You're not 567 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 1: going to get access to any player, You're gonna become 568 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 1: a prior. You can't say that. And most crime reporters, 569 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 1: and I'm sure a lot of the stories that you 570 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 1: guys explore, um from a journalistic perspective, you know, crime 571 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: in sports is not usually something we look at for 572 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 1: that crime reporters look at. Most crime reporters don't gravitate 573 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,239 Speaker 1: towards sports to say, oh, um, what's this, what's the 574 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 1: deal here, what's the scandal here, what's the corruption here? Um? So, 575 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 1: I just as a freelance sports writer without any ties 576 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: to the NBA, found myself in this very odd position. 577 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 1: And then after I wrote the article Tim Donnie, he 578 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 1: reached out to me and said, thank you so much 579 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 1: for writing this, and that's where we became friends and 580 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:09,719 Speaker 1: now after. But look, at the same time, I'm a journalist, right, 581 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 1: So I did my research that I've done. I've investigated 582 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 1: this story over that basically from that day, over the 583 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 1: course of eight plus years, and what I found when 584 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 1: it comes to Donnie he is that he in fact 585 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 1: is lying about a lot of things, in my opinion, 586 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 1: and because of that, we were forced to reveal those 587 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 1: things over the course of podcast. So Tim Donnie, I 588 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 1: don't think it's my friend any longer been unfortunately or 589 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 1: not unfortunately, I don't really care. But Tim, Tim Donnie 590 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,839 Speaker 1: is no longer um doesn't like me anymore, and that's 591 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 1: fine because I still liked him. I've no I have 592 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,839 Speaker 1: no issue with Tim, and all I want is to 593 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 1: find the truth at the heart of the scandal, at 594 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 1: the heart of this conspiracy. Because I really appreciate you 595 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,759 Speaker 1: saying that it's not conspiracy theory. There's no theory. It's 596 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,239 Speaker 1: really just a question of how deep the conspiracy goes. 597 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 1: And that's what our podcasts about, and that's what unfortunately, 598 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 1: for third teen years, people in my world, in the 599 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 1: sports world, have been too hesitant to investigate for for 600 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 1: reasons that are completely rational. If you're an NBA writer, 601 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 1: you want a job, You've got a future family. I 602 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 1: get it. Um. At the same time, this is the 603 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: darkest moment in the history of basketball, and to make 604 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 1: this sport better and you need to understand its fault 605 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: and why, you know what needs improving, and so that's 606 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:27,560 Speaker 1: where this journey kind of kicked off from. UM. But yeah, 607 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,880 Speaker 1: Tim Donnie is is a central part of our story. UM, 608 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 1: and I think what's interesting for myself and the audience 609 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 1: is deciphering what's true and what's not true. Let's pause 610 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: for a brief word from our sponsor before we return 611 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,320 Speaker 1: with more and the still developing tale of whistle Blewer 612 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:59,799 Speaker 1: with Tim Livingsteon, and we're back. These shows, both both 613 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 1: a Blower and stuff they want you to know, have 614 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:07,760 Speaker 1: have something in common, which is pursuing the truth, even 615 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,439 Speaker 1: when pursuing the truth is not a popular or even 616 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,239 Speaker 1: safe thing at times. One thing that stands out to 617 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,800 Speaker 1: me that surprises me that I haven't thought about really 618 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: until exploring whistle Blower and until speaking with you, is 619 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 1: the idea that the NBA could wield such profound, pervasive 620 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:36,399 Speaker 1: influence over what is supposed to be objective reporting. So 621 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 1: is it true that the NBA can just stone wall 622 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 1: or black ball blacklisted journalists or can they can they 623 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 1: shut down in silence a story? Or is it more 624 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:53,920 Speaker 1: that the journalists themselves are kind of proactively self selecting 625 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,360 Speaker 1: and avoiding things they think will get them in trouble. 626 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 1: That's a great question. And again, the media side of 627 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,840 Speaker 1: this is super, super interesting and something that we explore 628 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:04,759 Speaker 1: in the second half of the podcast. So I don't 629 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:06,680 Speaker 1: want to give away too many spoilers, but I will 630 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:10,359 Speaker 1: say that, in my opinion, during the David Stern era 631 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:12,880 Speaker 1: of the NBA and David Stern, for those who don't know, 632 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:18,359 Speaker 1: is the commissioner um from David Stern is and this 633 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,719 Speaker 1: is what where If you're just if you're listening to 634 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,879 Speaker 1: Whistleblower right now, you haven't heard this um, or you're 635 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 1: we're about to start revealing in episodes five, six and seven, 636 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 1: which you're coming out over the next um, you'll have 637 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:31,879 Speaker 1: heard five and six and seven are about to come out. 638 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:36,399 Speaker 1: But the NBA was an entity you did not mess with. 639 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 1: And that is not me saying that. That's other journalists 640 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 1: that I've spoken with. Murray Weiss, a former New York 641 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 1: Post reporter who broke the story in the NBA, said 642 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,160 Speaker 1: those words very clearly, right, you're you're about to hear 643 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,399 Speaker 1: You're about to hear Murray Weiss say that right where 644 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 1: people warned him, don't mess with the NBA, don't mess 645 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 1: with David Stern. David Stern did not mess around. David 646 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 1: Stern was a monarch, he really was, and he was brilliant, 647 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:06,280 Speaker 1: and he's a fascinating character in this that we really, 648 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 1: um are going to die going to dive into his psyche, 649 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,880 Speaker 1: going to dive into how he ran the league and 650 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 1: the way he ran the league. It's it's it wouldn't 651 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,920 Speaker 1: work in but it worked very well in the nineties 652 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,720 Speaker 1: and early two thousand's. He was not a social media 653 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,400 Speaker 1: era a guy. He said things that would just be 654 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 1: absolutely destroyed with the way we disseminate news and at 655 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,759 Speaker 1: the speed with which we disseminate news today. But the 656 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 1: n B a in my estimation, in my opinion, um 657 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:40,320 Speaker 1: which hopefully at this point your your audience um values 658 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,839 Speaker 1: at least somewhat as somebody who has spent eight years. 659 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:44,240 Speaker 1: If you guys don't. If you think I'm an idiot, 660 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:47,200 Speaker 1: that's fine as well. But my opinion is that, yes, 661 00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:52,440 Speaker 1: the NBA was somebody was was a company, right, was 662 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:54,879 Speaker 1: a was a thing that you did not mess with 663 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,280 Speaker 1: and that people were very scared of. And it wasn't 664 00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 1: just they would go to great lengths to make stories 665 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,000 Speaker 1: like this go away. And we explore with the Donnaghie 666 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 1: scandal the great lengths that they made for this story 667 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,440 Speaker 1: to go away, and it's fascinating. Now. I do have 668 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 1: to say I've been personally impressed by the uh, the 669 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:20,319 Speaker 1: the thoroughness of the reporting, especially when you know in 670 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 1: a very real way you're telling a story that doesn't 671 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,279 Speaker 1: want to be told right even in the modern day. 672 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,840 Speaker 1: And one thing we have to let you know, Uh, 673 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:33,160 Speaker 1: if you're listening to the show today, is that me 674 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 1: and Matt and Noel and Mission Control and Doc Holiday 675 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:43,239 Speaker 1: code named Doc Holiday. Uh. Tim, Tim isn't giving us 676 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:47,480 Speaker 1: a preview of the episodes. So all the stuff that 677 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,960 Speaker 1: that you just said, Tim with my question, it's it's 678 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 1: stuff that I have to wait for the next episode 679 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 1: to hear, which I think is it's fantastic. I just 680 00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:01,560 Speaker 1: want to say that, you know, uh, unlike some players 681 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 1: of the n B AH, we're not getting special treatment here, 682 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:10,560 Speaker 1: so we we are listening along with you folks. Perhaps 683 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:14,239 Speaker 1: one way to close today's episode, before everybody goes and 684 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:17,960 Speaker 1: checks out whistleblowers for ourselves, is to go back to 685 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:22,120 Speaker 1: to something that you post that I think is um 686 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:27,400 Speaker 1: of crucial importance here. So the there's this idea of 687 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 1: checks and balances, right and and how best to institute them, 688 00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:37,600 Speaker 1: But it seems so complicated. It seems like it's a 689 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:41,880 Speaker 1: very tall order. Do you have things like checks and 690 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 1: balances that you think would mitigate this problem? I mean, 691 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:49,799 Speaker 1: is there a solution? Because I you know, I'm not 692 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,200 Speaker 1: an expert. I'm not like the King of Referees or 693 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,000 Speaker 1: anything like that. And I was I was thinking through 694 00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,920 Speaker 1: this and um, yeah, I don't know it out smart 695 00:40:57,960 --> 00:40:59,880 Speaker 1: at me. It's just so easy to get away with, 696 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, And I think the first step is 697 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,840 Speaker 1: right now, the referees are employed by the NBA, So, 698 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 1: for example, during the David Stern era, David Stern somewhat 699 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,440 Speaker 1: facetiously replied during a Dan Patrick interview in two thousand 700 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:18,800 Speaker 1: and four about his dream NBA Finals matchup. He said, 701 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 1: Lakers versus Lakers is the league. That's that's what the Lakers, 702 00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:25,239 Speaker 1: that's what the league wants to see. And as the Lakers, like, 703 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,440 Speaker 1: I grew up a Lakers fan, right the Lakers. I 704 00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:33,319 Speaker 1: got the l A had on UM and I it's 705 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:37,360 Speaker 1: interesting because the Lakers were for ratings, which the NBA 706 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:39,880 Speaker 1: cared a lot about. The NBA makes a majority of 707 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:43,680 Speaker 1: its money via via television. UM. The TV contracts they've 708 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,879 Speaker 1: signed over the last twenty years have just gone up 709 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,320 Speaker 1: by the billions UM. It's gone from hundreds of millions 710 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:54,239 Speaker 1: to billions to multibillions. And last year the NBA did 711 00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:57,720 Speaker 1: almost nine billion dollars in revenue. So, if you're valuing 712 00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,920 Speaker 1: the NBA as a company there give or take a 713 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:04,759 Speaker 1: thirty five billion dollar company, they're a huge corporation. They're 714 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 1: very very powerful corporation. And so the first thing you 715 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:11,840 Speaker 1: need to do is make the referees. You need to 716 00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:15,520 Speaker 1: create a separate employment agency. You can't have the NBA 717 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,880 Speaker 1: employee referees because if the Lakers are playing whichever team 718 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:22,880 Speaker 1: in the Western Conference Finals, and that referee has in 719 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,600 Speaker 1: his head that David Stern, his boss's boss's boss's boss 720 00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:29,520 Speaker 1: is rooting for the Lakers to reach the next game. 721 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:33,400 Speaker 1: That's a problem, right, So that's step one is and 722 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:37,319 Speaker 1: Phil Jackson, former Lakers coach, the one who suggested that first, 723 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:38,400 Speaker 1: or at least I mean, I'm sure a lot of 724 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,640 Speaker 1: people had suggested before Phil Jackson, but I think Phil Jackson, 725 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:46,200 Speaker 1: Ovan time NBA champion, he's he knows, he's a smart guy. 726 00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:49,640 Speaker 1: He knows his teams have been privy to different officiating 727 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,840 Speaker 1: than a lot of other a lot of other teams. 728 00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,640 Speaker 1: And that's one anecdote that Donnie he provides and in 729 00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 1: our opening episodes where Phil Jackson or he calls Michael 730 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,440 Speaker 1: Jordan or travel and Michael Michael Jordan and Phil Jackson 731 00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,799 Speaker 1: flip out and Phil Jackson, you know, Donnie, he says, 732 00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,040 Speaker 1: you watch the same training tapes as I do. And 733 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:11,000 Speaker 1: Phil Jackson says, yeah, they might want that call to travel, 734 00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,200 Speaker 1: but not on Michael Jordan's. So it's the same kind 735 00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:19,600 Speaker 1: of bias and um talent discrimination that exists throughout the league, 736 00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,000 Speaker 1: and a call, the right call should be the right 737 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,440 Speaker 1: call every single time, and it's not. In the NBA. 738 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,640 Speaker 1: There's biases and different rules for different players, and it's 739 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,200 Speaker 1: it's not an even playing field. And to get there, 740 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:34,319 Speaker 1: the first step is to create make referees part of 741 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,920 Speaker 1: a different organization that has no ties with the NBA. 742 00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,920 Speaker 1: And that's that's step one, and that's a big step. 743 00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,239 Speaker 1: Do I think it's gonna happen. I don't know. I 744 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,799 Speaker 1: don't think anytime soon, because definitely during the David's Turn era, 745 00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,319 Speaker 1: I think the NBA enjoyed having that control and I 746 00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:55,520 Speaker 1: think they giving that up would be something that they 747 00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:59,600 Speaker 1: would really really have to be pushed into a hole 748 00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:02,360 Speaker 1: to do. But that's the that's the first step in 749 00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:04,640 Speaker 1: the solution. And then you've got to make sure that 750 00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:08,279 Speaker 1: that agency, that organization is is run well and run 751 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:13,640 Speaker 1: with integrity. But right now, the NBA, um having control 752 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:18,400 Speaker 1: essentially over the employment of its officials creates a conflict 753 00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:22,560 Speaker 1: of interest. Um, it's too wide a chasm to overcome. Yeah, 754 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,839 Speaker 1: this is you know, this is reminding me of all 755 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,160 Speaker 1: those memes where you see like a tiny hero standing 756 00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:33,680 Speaker 1: up against some gigantic colossus in the on the horizon. 757 00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:38,600 Speaker 1: That's an enormous conflict of interest. And you know what 758 00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:41,239 Speaker 1: what I like about this point to and what I 759 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:47,840 Speaker 1: like about I called some of my friends who are living, breathing, 760 00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:53,720 Speaker 1: God bless them for their optimism Atlanta basketball fans, and 761 00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:59,359 Speaker 1: uh so they so so. Uh you know a lot 762 00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:03,880 Speaker 1: of think a lot of folks here or somehow familiar 763 00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:08,719 Speaker 1: with the problem you're addressing just at the very offset 764 00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:14,520 Speaker 1: of Whistleblower, and it's this I think. You know, if 765 00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:18,239 Speaker 1: you love basketball, then of course you feel like there's 766 00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:22,000 Speaker 1: been several terrible calls as you said, to two, three, 767 00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,960 Speaker 1: four per game. So I think a lot of our 768 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:30,680 Speaker 1: listeners are already excited to see, uh it's very real 769 00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:35,080 Speaker 1: proof that that they weren't just being you know, uh, 770 00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:38,520 Speaker 1: sore loser fans or something like that. Uh And and 771 00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:42,600 Speaker 1: so we turn it over to you, folks. Don't don't 772 00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,440 Speaker 1: take my word for it. Do check out whistle Blower. 773 00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:49,440 Speaker 1: It's available wherever you find your favorite podcast on any platform. 774 00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:53,799 Speaker 1: As we said, we actually waited a little bit on 775 00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:57,920 Speaker 1: this interview because we didn't want to have the interview 776 00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:01,839 Speaker 1: here while episode one just out, because there's so much 777 00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,920 Speaker 1: stuff on the horizon that we can't get talk about 778 00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:07,400 Speaker 1: and and Tim, thank you for being patient with me. 779 00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:10,080 Speaker 1: I know you totally caught me trying to slide in 780 00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:12,920 Speaker 1: getting a little more info. I guess I'll just have 781 00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:16,680 Speaker 1: to wait to wait till next week. But I appreciate 782 00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:18,920 Speaker 1: Ben now is great. Um, I can talk about this 783 00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:22,160 Speaker 1: stuff all day, So after episode ten comes out, I'll 784 00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:24,560 Speaker 1: come back on and we can dive even deeper. But 785 00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,799 Speaker 1: to appreciate it, it's a lot of fun. And yeah, 786 00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:29,640 Speaker 1: check out Whistleblower. I think you guys will like it. 787 00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:33,840 Speaker 1: In the meantime, Tim, for anyone who would like to 788 00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:37,040 Speaker 1: learn more about your ouball work, where can they find 789 00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:41,839 Speaker 1: you online? I'm on Twitter at Tim likes sports. UM 790 00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:45,720 Speaker 1: to handle that, I think I've got that. I'm gonna 791 00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:48,480 Speaker 1: stick with UM because I still like sports after even 792 00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:51,759 Speaker 1: after learning about all the terrible things that that I've 793 00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,319 Speaker 1: happened in the world that I love. So Yeah, Tim 794 00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:57,680 Speaker 1: likes sports on Twitter and UM that's where you can 795 00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:01,480 Speaker 1: that's from most active on the social media's can you 796 00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:06,759 Speaker 1: can also find Tim on the No Chill podcast if 797 00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,920 Speaker 1: you are like me, waiting for the end of whistle Blower. 798 00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:13,200 Speaker 1: In the meantime, while you're on the internet, You can 799 00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:15,200 Speaker 1: also find stuff they don't want you to know. We're 800 00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,360 Speaker 1: on Instagram, We're on Facebook, We're on Twitter. If you 801 00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:21,120 Speaker 1: have listened to our multiple episodes about big data and 802 00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:24,640 Speaker 1: you are still on Facebook, then check out our check 803 00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:27,560 Speaker 1: out our group page. Here's where it gets crazy. You 804 00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:30,000 Speaker 1: can leave us a phone number if you don't SIP 805 00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:33,680 Speaker 1: the social needs one eight three three st d w 806 00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:37,080 Speaker 1: y t K. Let us know if you want us 807 00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:40,160 Speaker 1: to use your name on air or not. We can't 808 00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:44,520 Speaker 1: wait to hear your input, your feedback on whistle blower. 809 00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,560 Speaker 1: How deep do you think this goes? How high? And 810 00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:51,600 Speaker 1: why do you think this conspiracy breaches? If you don't 811 00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:55,799 Speaker 1: like phones, get it real friends, text and you don't 812 00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:58,960 Speaker 1: like social media, there's one way you can always contact us. 813 00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,560 Speaker 1: We have a good old fashion email address where we 814 00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:24,480 Speaker 1: are conspiracy at i heart radio dot com. Stuff they 815 00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:26,400 Speaker 1: Don't want you to Know is a production of I 816 00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:29,640 Speaker 1: heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit 817 00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:32,440 Speaker 1: the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 818 00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:33,640 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.