1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:23,476 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey everyone, today we're closing out Black Music Month 2 00:00:23,636 --> 00:00:27,396 Speaker 1: by celebrating one of Rick Rubin's favorite albums of all time, 3 00:00:28,036 --> 00:00:32,716 Speaker 1: Forever Changes, by the band Love. Love was a groundbreaking 4 00:00:32,716 --> 00:00:36,356 Speaker 1: in LA group formed in nineteen sixty five. While their 5 00:00:36,396 --> 00:00:40,516 Speaker 1: name isn't usually mentioned alongside popular California psychedelic bands like 6 00:00:40,636 --> 00:00:44,676 Speaker 1: The Birds or The Grateful Dead, Love's influence is vast. 7 00:00:45,396 --> 00:00:48,556 Speaker 1: They were the first interracial rock band, predating even signing 8 00:00:48,596 --> 00:00:52,356 Speaker 1: the Family Stone up in San Francisco. Their charismatic, fashion 9 00:00:52,436 --> 00:00:56,916 Speaker 1: forward black frontman Arthur Lee inspired Jimmy Hendricks's look, and 10 00:00:56,956 --> 00:00:59,796 Speaker 1: in the mid sixties, Love was the hottest band in 11 00:00:59,876 --> 00:01:02,876 Speaker 1: a Hollywood. They lived together in a castle and played 12 00:01:02,916 --> 00:01:06,116 Speaker 1: sold out shows on the Sunset Strip, where diehard fans 13 00:01:06,156 --> 00:01:09,596 Speaker 1: like Jim Morrison came to see them play. In nineteen 14 00:01:09,676 --> 00:01:13,076 Speaker 1: sixty seven, the band recorded their third album, Forever Changes. 15 00:01:13,596 --> 00:01:15,636 Speaker 1: It was the last album for the original core of 16 00:01:15,676 --> 00:01:19,076 Speaker 1: the group, with guitarist Johnny Ecles and co writer Brian McLean. 17 00:01:19,676 --> 00:01:22,516 Speaker 1: The album ushered in an entirely new sound for the band, 18 00:01:22,676 --> 00:01:26,956 Speaker 1: combining baroque sounding instruments and horns with folky instrumentation and 19 00:01:27,036 --> 00:01:30,596 Speaker 1: poetic lyrics. On today's episode, we'll hear some of Rick 20 00:01:30,636 --> 00:01:35,156 Speaker 1: Rubin's conversation with Detroit rapper Danny Brown, who, like Rick, 21 00:01:35,516 --> 00:01:39,236 Speaker 1: places Love's album Forever Changes at the very top of 22 00:01:39,276 --> 00:01:43,396 Speaker 1: his greatest albums ever. Then we'll hear Rick in conversation 23 00:01:43,436 --> 00:01:47,676 Speaker 1: with Loveslely guitarist Johnny eccles about the intense turmoil surrounding 24 00:01:47,716 --> 00:01:51,836 Speaker 1: the recording of Forever Changes. Ecoles, who grew up straddling 25 00:01:51,876 --> 00:01:55,636 Speaker 1: both black lay and the psychedelic Strip, explains how Love 26 00:01:55,716 --> 00:01:58,796 Speaker 1: was responsible for getting The Doors the record deal, only 27 00:01:58,836 --> 00:02:03,356 Speaker 1: to be quickly overshadowed by The Door's mainstream success. Echoes 28 00:02:03,436 --> 00:02:05,996 Speaker 1: also recalls first meeting the Beatles when they were an 29 00:02:05,996 --> 00:02:12,676 Speaker 1: opening act for a Little Richard. This is broken record 30 00:02:13,036 --> 00:02:15,676 Speaker 1: line of notes for the digital age. I'm just commission 31 00:02:16,836 --> 00:02:20,076 Speaker 1: before we jump into Rick's conversation with Johnny Echos, Let's 32 00:02:20,156 --> 00:02:23,996 Speaker 1: first hear from the one and only Danny Brown. Of 33 00:02:24,116 --> 00:02:26,076 Speaker 1: all the music you listen to, where do you put 34 00:02:26,156 --> 00:02:28,996 Speaker 1: Forever Changes in your very change? My favorite album? I've heard? 35 00:02:29,476 --> 00:02:31,676 Speaker 1: Number one album? Yeah, because I still, like I told you, 36 00:02:31,756 --> 00:02:34,956 Speaker 1: I still hear, I still hear new things to this day, 37 00:02:34,996 --> 00:02:37,756 Speaker 1: and I still haven't understand I don't understand still what 38 00:02:37,796 --> 00:02:40,036 Speaker 1: I'm listening to. I just know I'm not listening to 39 00:02:40,076 --> 00:02:41,916 Speaker 1: it with my brain, like because I know a lot 40 00:02:41,956 --> 00:02:43,836 Speaker 1: of time I hear music and I love it, and 41 00:02:43,956 --> 00:02:46,196 Speaker 1: then three months later it's like your brain tricked you 42 00:02:46,196 --> 00:02:48,076 Speaker 1: to like that. You know what I'm saying, because feeling wise, 43 00:02:48,116 --> 00:02:49,596 Speaker 1: it does nothing for me, you know what I'm saying, 44 00:02:51,196 --> 00:02:53,876 Speaker 1: But forever changes, no matter like how much a lot 45 00:02:53,876 --> 00:02:56,036 Speaker 1: of the shit I don't even understand, some reason to 46 00:02:56,076 --> 00:02:58,676 Speaker 1: just stick with me emotionally beautiful. But I guess the 47 00:02:59,436 --> 00:03:01,356 Speaker 1: first thing that caught me about the album was that 48 00:03:01,716 --> 00:03:05,636 Speaker 1: I didn't know it was black, like hearing some music 49 00:03:05,676 --> 00:03:08,236 Speaker 1: like that, because it was like I don't never want 50 00:03:08,276 --> 00:03:10,716 Speaker 1: to put race to music and stuff, but you know, 51 00:03:10,756 --> 00:03:14,516 Speaker 1: growing up in Detroit almost have like a Motown feel 52 00:03:15,236 --> 00:03:17,996 Speaker 1: to me in some sense to it. But he was 53 00:03:18,076 --> 00:03:20,956 Speaker 1: like doing stuff other like black artists wasn't doing at 54 00:03:20,956 --> 00:03:23,876 Speaker 1: the time, you know what I'm saying as of his 55 00:03:24,116 --> 00:03:27,476 Speaker 1: ram in some sense, but even listening to it nine 56 00:03:27,516 --> 00:03:30,236 Speaker 1: like coming on my way over here is so California too, 57 00:03:30,316 --> 00:03:33,676 Speaker 1: like like I get that viab like I know that's 58 00:03:33,676 --> 00:03:36,196 Speaker 1: meaning the sixties, but it's like it's like a sound 59 00:03:36,276 --> 00:03:40,236 Speaker 1: tractor here almost and and and I know music plays 60 00:03:40,276 --> 00:03:44,116 Speaker 1: a big part for me when environments like me like 61 00:03:44,196 --> 00:03:46,556 Speaker 1: growing up and being like a big Naves fan and 62 00:03:46,596 --> 00:03:49,436 Speaker 1: like Illmatic was like, but my first time, you know, 63 00:03:49,516 --> 00:03:52,916 Speaker 1: seeing Queensbridge projects like this is the and do you 64 00:03:52,956 --> 00:03:55,276 Speaker 1: know this is the scene that this ship was painted 65 00:03:55,276 --> 00:03:57,316 Speaker 1: to you know what I'm saying, absolutely? And I guess 66 00:03:57,356 --> 00:04:00,596 Speaker 1: you know drugs too, because there's a lot of Like 67 00:04:00,596 --> 00:04:02,756 Speaker 1: I said, I got questions too about the album, Like 68 00:04:02,796 --> 00:04:05,636 Speaker 1: the only song I can figure out that means something 69 00:04:05,796 --> 00:04:08,036 Speaker 1: is the And the titles too, are so all over 70 00:04:08,076 --> 00:04:11,276 Speaker 1: the place, the one about them, you know, the snot 71 00:04:11,356 --> 00:04:13,116 Speaker 1: drying up on these pans and stuff and all that, 72 00:04:13,236 --> 00:04:15,396 Speaker 1: Like I feel like that song is about war obviously, 73 00:04:15,516 --> 00:04:18,316 Speaker 1: you know, about going into service and stuff. But after that, 74 00:04:18,556 --> 00:04:21,116 Speaker 1: like all the songs are like open for interpretation for 75 00:04:21,276 --> 00:04:22,796 Speaker 1: I think a lot of different people. You know what 76 00:04:22,836 --> 00:04:25,596 Speaker 1: I'm saying, absolutely, How does the music of it strike you? 77 00:04:25,796 --> 00:04:27,836 Speaker 1: That's the one thing that I think is the big 78 00:04:27,876 --> 00:04:30,796 Speaker 1: deal too about it. Like as good as the songwriter 79 00:04:30,916 --> 00:04:33,036 Speaker 1: Arthur Lee was, I think everybody was like at the 80 00:04:33,076 --> 00:04:35,956 Speaker 1: top of the game far as the instrumentation, and then 81 00:04:35,996 --> 00:04:38,236 Speaker 1: other thing too. They did it in four months, Like 82 00:04:39,196 --> 00:04:41,356 Speaker 1: like you talk about me, someone that take years and 83 00:04:41,356 --> 00:04:43,636 Speaker 1: stuff making albums, Like what the fuck am I bullshit? 84 00:04:45,516 --> 00:04:47,756 Speaker 1: Like how did they do this four months? And didn't 85 00:04:47,756 --> 00:04:50,876 Speaker 1: with they working on the reels and stuff like that, 86 00:04:50,916 --> 00:04:52,836 Speaker 1: and we have pro too, He's just pressing the button 87 00:04:52,876 --> 00:04:55,596 Speaker 1: he could just do know, So it's like they had 88 00:04:55,676 --> 00:04:59,156 Speaker 1: no room for error, especially when you're dealing with Okay, 89 00:04:59,156 --> 00:05:01,516 Speaker 1: you already have a full band, you know, and then 90 00:05:01,556 --> 00:05:03,796 Speaker 1: you want to add in horns and you want to 91 00:05:03,836 --> 00:05:06,356 Speaker 1: add in string arrangements and stuff like that. It's like 92 00:05:06,636 --> 00:05:08,956 Speaker 1: it's so hard to make them make stuff like that 93 00:05:09,156 --> 00:05:11,396 Speaker 1: fluttered like you know what I'm saying. So it was 94 00:05:11,516 --> 00:05:15,316 Speaker 1: like certain parts like he didn't have drums or but 95 00:05:15,356 --> 00:05:17,636 Speaker 1: when he did, it was always like kick ass. Though 96 00:05:17,636 --> 00:05:20,396 Speaker 1: it wasn't like nothing that just set there to just 97 00:05:20,476 --> 00:05:22,716 Speaker 1: hold the tone, you know what I'm saying. Everything was 98 00:05:22,756 --> 00:05:25,676 Speaker 1: there to stick out, which is so cool about you know, 99 00:05:26,196 --> 00:05:28,276 Speaker 1: production and ship too, because a lot of times, you know, 100 00:05:28,316 --> 00:05:30,516 Speaker 1: you can just fall back on the song writing. And 101 00:05:30,556 --> 00:05:33,796 Speaker 1: as strong as those songs was that he's writing, it's like, yeah, 102 00:05:33,836 --> 00:05:37,996 Speaker 1: you could have just never really been that shit could 103 00:05:38,036 --> 00:05:40,076 Speaker 1: have just been acoustic guitar. Next year, we still would 104 00:05:40,076 --> 00:05:42,036 Speaker 1: have knew those were amazing songs and the like, But 105 00:05:42,156 --> 00:05:46,796 Speaker 1: the go that fucking her production wise is like what 106 00:05:47,796 --> 00:05:50,116 Speaker 1: And then it just to hear like the cost of 107 00:05:50,116 --> 00:05:52,956 Speaker 1: the album at that time, it's like fuck man, Like 108 00:05:53,116 --> 00:05:55,596 Speaker 1: for that album to come out, it didn't sell any records. 109 00:05:55,596 --> 00:05:57,916 Speaker 1: It wasn't like a fucking big deal or anything, like 110 00:05:57,916 --> 00:05:59,316 Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. But now we're sitting here 111 00:05:59,356 --> 00:06:02,196 Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen and talking about it, you know, so 112 00:06:02,276 --> 00:06:05,356 Speaker 1: that gives me, Yeah, it gives me hope, Like you 113 00:06:05,356 --> 00:06:07,796 Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, Like, good music never dies no 114 00:06:07,836 --> 00:06:10,516 Speaker 1: matter what you know, how long ago was it that 115 00:06:10,556 --> 00:06:13,876 Speaker 1: you first heard it. I always judge stuff by, um, 116 00:06:14,236 --> 00:06:15,556 Speaker 1: what I was listening to at the time. I was 117 00:06:15,596 --> 00:06:19,396 Speaker 1: listening to Jay Dillar Donuts. So when Donuts came out 118 00:06:19,756 --> 00:06:22,276 Speaker 1: two thousand and six, yeah, that's a long time for 119 00:06:22,316 --> 00:06:25,356 Speaker 1: an album to hold you. And same for me. I 120 00:06:25,396 --> 00:06:28,236 Speaker 1: probably started listening to it in the early two thousands 121 00:06:28,396 --> 00:06:32,116 Speaker 1: and still anytime I fly, that's what I listened to 122 00:06:32,156 --> 00:06:35,076 Speaker 1: on an airplane always because it has a subtleness to 123 00:06:35,156 --> 00:06:37,036 Speaker 1: it too, because like you know, playing music, it's a 124 00:06:37,036 --> 00:06:39,276 Speaker 1: different thing you want something you can sleep too and 125 00:06:39,396 --> 00:06:43,396 Speaker 1: still wake up and not freak you out, you know 126 00:06:43,476 --> 00:06:46,956 Speaker 1: what I'm saying. So I think for Every Change is 127 00:06:46,956 --> 00:06:50,756 Speaker 1: a subtle album that has that, but I get so 128 00:06:50,796 --> 00:06:52,716 Speaker 1: caught up in the lyrics of it, like the only 129 00:06:52,796 --> 00:06:55,276 Speaker 1: other album I can like compare Forever Changes too for 130 00:06:55,316 --> 00:06:57,916 Speaker 1: me and some sense it's like a mad Villain like 131 00:06:58,196 --> 00:06:59,956 Speaker 1: to me, like I can just take the album just 132 00:06:59,996 --> 00:07:02,796 Speaker 1: read it, and I think I would still feel a 133 00:07:03,436 --> 00:07:05,996 Speaker 1: personal connection just from the lyrics, just from reading it. 134 00:07:06,636 --> 00:07:08,556 Speaker 1: And that's why I can compare it to him. It 135 00:07:08,596 --> 00:07:11,236 Speaker 1: because like I had went to m I had did 136 00:07:11,316 --> 00:07:13,716 Speaker 1: like a year in county jail, and you know, with 137 00:07:13,916 --> 00:07:15,676 Speaker 1: being in jail, you don't have no music or nothing. 138 00:07:15,716 --> 00:07:17,396 Speaker 1: So I would have my brother like praying out and 139 00:07:17,676 --> 00:07:19,836 Speaker 1: doom lyrics for me. Yeah, and that was the way 140 00:07:19,916 --> 00:07:24,196 Speaker 1: And like I connected with Mad Villain just reading words. 141 00:07:24,836 --> 00:07:27,276 Speaker 1: So and I feel like Forever Change, It's genuitely has 142 00:07:27,356 --> 00:07:28,836 Speaker 1: that same type of peal because I had to read 143 00:07:28,836 --> 00:07:31,996 Speaker 1: those lyrics too. Make sure to keep an eye out 144 00:07:31,996 --> 00:07:34,876 Speaker 1: for Danny Brown's new joint album with rapper producer Jay 145 00:07:34,956 --> 00:07:38,836 Speaker 1: Peg Mafia when it drops later this year. Now, let's 146 00:07:38,836 --> 00:07:41,796 Speaker 1: see Rick and Johnny eccles talk through the making of 147 00:07:41,876 --> 00:07:47,756 Speaker 1: Loves Forever Changes. I want to understand why this beautiful 148 00:07:47,796 --> 00:07:52,956 Speaker 1: album is so unique. Okay, should we go through song 149 00:07:53,036 --> 00:07:55,556 Speaker 1: by song? Sure, we can do that. Whichever was I'll 150 00:07:55,596 --> 00:07:57,476 Speaker 1: put them, I'll bring them up and we can listen 151 00:07:57,516 --> 00:07:58,876 Speaker 1: to a little bit of each song and you can 152 00:07:58,956 --> 00:08:01,156 Speaker 1: just tell me who did what, or what was going 153 00:08:01,156 --> 00:08:03,636 Speaker 1: on at time or what what? What memories come up 154 00:08:03,636 --> 00:08:06,316 Speaker 1: when you hear it. Okay, let me let's start with 155 00:08:06,676 --> 00:08:22,716 Speaker 1: this all the time. What do you think about? What 156 00:08:22,956 --> 00:08:25,876 Speaker 1: do you remember about? Okay? This was a song that 157 00:08:25,996 --> 00:08:30,596 Speaker 1: Brian wrote, call Alone Again. Arthur added the oar to it. Yes. Now, 158 00:08:30,996 --> 00:08:34,316 Speaker 1: when we first started working on this song, it the 159 00:08:34,436 --> 00:08:37,796 Speaker 1: introduction on him doing the fingerpick of Spanish guitar. Yeah, 160 00:08:37,916 --> 00:08:40,356 Speaker 1: it was meant to be a banjo so the song 161 00:08:40,476 --> 00:08:42,916 Speaker 1: was a different song. It was a blue grassy kind 162 00:08:42,916 --> 00:08:46,236 Speaker 1: of song when he first wrote it, and we were 163 00:08:46,356 --> 00:08:49,236 Speaker 1: young and naive and thought, well, we play guitar, we 164 00:08:49,316 --> 00:08:54,196 Speaker 1: can play banjo too. So we rented banjo's and we 165 00:08:54,236 --> 00:08:57,636 Speaker 1: came into the studio and we tried doing the introduction 166 00:08:57,636 --> 00:09:01,876 Speaker 1: and playing banjos. Well, banjo's entirely different instrument instruments, yeah, 167 00:09:01,956 --> 00:09:03,716 Speaker 1: and so if you don't know how to play it, 168 00:09:03,876 --> 00:09:06,956 Speaker 1: you can't play it. So we were at the verge 169 00:09:06,956 --> 00:09:10,916 Speaker 1: of just nixing that song altogether. And I was sitting 170 00:09:10,956 --> 00:09:12,996 Speaker 1: in a corner warming up. So I'm just playing that. 171 00:09:12,996 --> 00:09:15,996 Speaker 1: They're not flamenco. There's just Spanish riffs, you know, and 172 00:09:16,196 --> 00:09:19,076 Speaker 1: David Angel here's that. So why don't we just kind 173 00:09:19,116 --> 00:09:22,476 Speaker 1: of transfer those kinds of riffs to Brian's song and 174 00:09:22,556 --> 00:09:24,836 Speaker 1: do it that way. And so he went over and 175 00:09:24,836 --> 00:09:28,996 Speaker 1: talked to Brian. First, Brian was against it, but he says, well, 176 00:09:29,036 --> 00:09:31,036 Speaker 1: if you want the song on the album, from what 177 00:09:31,276 --> 00:09:33,636 Speaker 1: I understand, you're going to have to do something. And 178 00:09:33,676 --> 00:09:36,116 Speaker 1: so Brian said, okay, let's do it that way. And 179 00:09:36,156 --> 00:09:38,796 Speaker 1: so we changed the feel of the song to a 180 00:09:38,876 --> 00:09:43,396 Speaker 1: Spanish song, and the mariachi trumpet in the middle of 181 00:09:43,396 --> 00:09:46,436 Speaker 1: the song was done by David ANGELI came up with 182 00:09:46,516 --> 00:09:51,316 Speaker 1: that part because initially I was doing just Spanish runs 183 00:09:51,316 --> 00:09:54,756 Speaker 1: and nets. What you hear playing behind the trumpet is 184 00:09:54,796 --> 00:09:57,356 Speaker 1: what would have been there. But then I was playing 185 00:09:57,756 --> 00:10:01,876 Speaker 1: certain runs and the trumpet basically followed those runs, and 186 00:10:01,916 --> 00:10:04,116 Speaker 1: so he played what I had played on my guitar 187 00:10:04,516 --> 00:10:09,116 Speaker 1: as a trumpet solo. Amazing. Yeah, it is really fantastic 188 00:10:09,276 --> 00:10:11,956 Speaker 1: the way it turned out. I listened to that and thought, boil, 189 00:10:12,116 --> 00:10:14,556 Speaker 1: this is really a good song where it's really good. 190 00:10:14,676 --> 00:10:17,036 Speaker 1: Before it was kind of a you know, a so 191 00:10:17,196 --> 00:10:21,196 Speaker 1: so song, a throwaway song basically because you know, we 192 00:10:21,196 --> 00:10:25,036 Speaker 1: were basically trying to put the song together with a 193 00:10:25,156 --> 00:10:28,876 Speaker 1: totally different feel, and this was it was just perfect 194 00:10:28,956 --> 00:10:31,116 Speaker 1: for the song, the Spanish feel. How did it end 195 00:10:31,196 --> 00:10:32,836 Speaker 1: up being the first track on the album? That was 196 00:10:32,956 --> 00:10:36,676 Speaker 1: done by the record company. They put together and mastered 197 00:10:36,716 --> 00:10:40,836 Speaker 1: and the order of the songs I was totally done 198 00:10:40,876 --> 00:10:45,116 Speaker 1: by Jack Holsman. It was a bold decision because based 199 00:10:45,156 --> 00:10:47,556 Speaker 1: on everything we know about love at that moment, and 200 00:10:47,636 --> 00:10:49,316 Speaker 1: now here's the new album and you put that on, 201 00:10:50,236 --> 00:10:52,796 Speaker 1: you wouldn't know it was the same group. No, you wouldn't. 202 00:10:52,836 --> 00:10:56,396 Speaker 1: And the fact that Brian's song is opening the album. 203 00:10:56,556 --> 00:11:00,156 Speaker 1: Had Arthur been involved in that, it wouldn't have been 204 00:11:00,196 --> 00:11:03,276 Speaker 1: that way understood. And if you notice on this song 205 00:11:03,316 --> 00:11:06,876 Speaker 1: there are different versions of this the same music, but 206 00:11:06,956 --> 00:11:09,836 Speaker 1: there are different versions and some Arthur his voice because 207 00:11:09,836 --> 00:11:12,196 Speaker 1: he see Arthur wasn't even at the studio when we 208 00:11:12,316 --> 00:11:16,156 Speaker 1: recorded alone again, and he comes in later and he 209 00:11:16,156 --> 00:11:18,636 Speaker 1: hears it and he likes it, and so he sings 210 00:11:18,636 --> 00:11:22,716 Speaker 1: harmony with Brian, all of us sing harmony, and later 211 00:11:22,836 --> 00:11:26,116 Speaker 1: on Arthur he says he didn't do it, but I 212 00:11:26,116 --> 00:11:28,196 Speaker 1: don't see who else would have done it. He put 213 00:11:28,276 --> 00:11:31,476 Speaker 1: his voice ahead of Brian, so you hear more of 214 00:11:31,596 --> 00:11:35,396 Speaker 1: Arthur than you do with Brian on some of the releases. 215 00:11:35,836 --> 00:11:41,076 Speaker 1: They re released the album just recently and they remastered 216 00:11:41,116 --> 00:11:42,876 Speaker 1: and then you can hear the way it's opposed to 217 00:11:42,956 --> 00:11:46,756 Speaker 1: with Brian's voice more prominent. It still sounds almost the same, 218 00:11:47,036 --> 00:11:49,916 Speaker 1: but you just hear Bran. It's different. Balance. Yeah, okay, 219 00:11:50,036 --> 00:12:00,316 Speaker 1: next song, You're just a thought that someone somewhe somehome 220 00:12:00,436 --> 00:12:05,596 Speaker 1: fields you should be And so basically acoustic songs again, 221 00:12:05,596 --> 00:12:10,036 Speaker 1: which is coming from what we've heard before from Love shocking. Yeah, 222 00:12:10,036 --> 00:12:13,716 Speaker 1: it is shocking. This song has a very interesting backstory. 223 00:12:14,076 --> 00:12:17,116 Speaker 1: We were playing up in San Francisco. The place at 224 00:12:17,116 --> 00:12:21,596 Speaker 1: the time was called the Warehouse, wh our house, and 225 00:12:23,036 --> 00:12:26,916 Speaker 1: Janis Joplin was build with us, and she is really 226 00:12:26,956 --> 00:12:30,756 Speaker 1: really loud, and our dressing room would have been right 227 00:12:30,836 --> 00:12:35,196 Speaker 1: behind the stage, and so we decide that there's back 228 00:12:35,236 --> 00:12:38,036 Speaker 1: Then they would break up clubs, and there would be 229 00:12:38,116 --> 00:12:41,436 Speaker 1: section where people that are under eighteen could go that 230 00:12:41,556 --> 00:12:44,716 Speaker 1: they didn't serve alcohol and they could be there. And 231 00:12:44,796 --> 00:12:47,116 Speaker 1: on the other part of it is where the adults 232 00:12:47,156 --> 00:12:51,756 Speaker 1: went and naked buy alcohol. So we went to the 233 00:12:51,796 --> 00:12:54,036 Speaker 1: adult part, even though at that point I was still, 234 00:12:54,196 --> 00:12:56,756 Speaker 1: you know, probably nineteen or something. Wasn't supposed to be 235 00:12:56,796 --> 00:12:59,356 Speaker 1: in there, but we go over to that section just 236 00:12:59,356 --> 00:13:02,996 Speaker 1: to get away from the screaming of Janice. I'd loved her. 237 00:13:03,156 --> 00:13:04,956 Speaker 1: She was a good friend of mine, but she could 238 00:13:05,036 --> 00:13:09,516 Speaker 1: really really get your ears vibrating. So we're sitting in 239 00:13:10,036 --> 00:13:13,116 Speaker 1: this place and some guy just walks up and he 240 00:13:13,196 --> 00:13:16,636 Speaker 1: sits down at the table where Arthur and me and 241 00:13:16,676 --> 00:13:19,716 Speaker 1: Brian are sitting, and he puts a big, huge gun 242 00:13:19,756 --> 00:13:23,756 Speaker 1: on the table, and so he's what's going on, and 243 00:13:23,836 --> 00:13:26,236 Speaker 1: he starts to telling us about he was an a 244 00:13:26,396 --> 00:13:31,516 Speaker 1: wall soldier from Vietnam, and he tells us about blood 245 00:13:32,196 --> 00:13:36,236 Speaker 1: mixing with mud, turning gray, and he's talking about all 246 00:13:36,236 --> 00:13:39,796 Speaker 1: these things. You can call my name is where one 247 00:13:39,796 --> 00:13:43,676 Speaker 1: of the soldiers would be hit and the Vietnam or 248 00:13:43,676 --> 00:13:47,316 Speaker 1: whatever would booby trap that soldier and so he would 249 00:13:47,356 --> 00:13:52,076 Speaker 1: be screaming all night long, and the people couldn't, his comrades, 250 00:13:52,156 --> 00:13:54,276 Speaker 1: his buddies couldn't come and get him and rescue him 251 00:13:54,276 --> 00:13:57,636 Speaker 1: because he had been booby trapped. And so he's telling 252 00:13:57,756 --> 00:14:00,596 Speaker 1: us all of these stories and all of that, and 253 00:14:00,956 --> 00:14:03,636 Speaker 1: you know Arthur's mind, we're listening to it, fascinating. His 254 00:14:03,716 --> 00:14:07,756 Speaker 1: mind's working entirely differently. He's got those lyrics and he's 255 00:14:07,796 --> 00:14:13,356 Speaker 1: doing poetry with this Vietnam vets and that turned into 256 00:14:13,556 --> 00:14:16,516 Speaker 1: a house as not a motel. Incredible, And did the 257 00:14:16,716 --> 00:14:19,476 Speaker 1: did the music come first or did the words come first? 258 00:14:19,476 --> 00:14:21,516 Speaker 1: And then you put music to the words came first? 259 00:14:21,556 --> 00:14:25,356 Speaker 1: This was basically poetry, and then Arthur would sing it 260 00:14:25,396 --> 00:14:28,476 Speaker 1: and he started Arthur not only did he write the words, 261 00:14:28,476 --> 00:14:30,436 Speaker 1: but he wrote the melodies to his son that he 262 00:14:30,516 --> 00:14:33,596 Speaker 1: just didn't have the ability to put music to it. 263 00:14:33,636 --> 00:14:36,076 Speaker 1: But and when he would say if he would sing 264 00:14:36,116 --> 00:14:38,276 Speaker 1: you a song, would it all be in one key? Like? 265 00:14:38,356 --> 00:14:40,796 Speaker 1: He would he sing it like as if there was 266 00:14:40,876 --> 00:14:44,716 Speaker 1: music to it already. Sort of sometimes he would meander 267 00:14:44,756 --> 00:14:47,596 Speaker 1: as far as the key is concerned. But and sometimes 268 00:14:47,716 --> 00:14:51,036 Speaker 1: as once we started putting music to it and actually 269 00:14:51,036 --> 00:14:54,956 Speaker 1: playing it would change a bit. You know, the melody 270 00:14:55,156 --> 00:14:58,116 Speaker 1: phrasing and to work with the music. Yeah, so he 271 00:14:58,156 --> 00:15:01,196 Speaker 1: would do that. But this started out, as I said, 272 00:15:01,196 --> 00:15:03,756 Speaker 1: as poetry. So would you say all the songs started 273 00:15:03,796 --> 00:15:06,996 Speaker 1: as poetry before the music. Yeah, basically all of them 274 00:15:07,036 --> 00:15:10,836 Speaker 1: as a rule. Yeah, fascinating. Yes, I would say less 275 00:15:10,956 --> 00:15:13,596 Speaker 1: music is made that way as well. Yeah, that's why 276 00:15:13,596 --> 00:15:18,676 Speaker 1: it sounds different because the music kind of compliments because 277 00:15:18,716 --> 00:15:21,316 Speaker 1: we got to hear how the poetry went in here. 278 00:15:21,396 --> 00:15:24,516 Speaker 1: So it's almost like you're scoring the poem basically. Yes, 279 00:15:24,676 --> 00:15:28,516 Speaker 1: that's what we're doing, and it means you know, any 280 00:15:28,516 --> 00:15:30,756 Speaker 1: thoughts about the music and that one the direction of 281 00:15:30,796 --> 00:15:33,676 Speaker 1: the music, how it how it evolved. Again, that was 282 00:15:33,796 --> 00:15:37,796 Speaker 1: interesting because there's two guitar solos. Yes, when I'm playing 283 00:15:37,796 --> 00:15:40,276 Speaker 1: the first one the ear phones, the head phones are 284 00:15:40,316 --> 00:15:42,596 Speaker 1: working great and I can hear the backing track and 285 00:15:42,716 --> 00:15:46,356 Speaker 1: I'm laying down the solos. When I'm ready to do 286 00:15:46,396 --> 00:15:49,036 Speaker 1: the second one, something goes wrong and there's a glitch 287 00:15:49,076 --> 00:15:51,756 Speaker 1: and I can't hear the first guitar solo. So there 288 00:15:51,836 --> 00:15:53,796 Speaker 1: was a plan to do the two guitar solos. Yeah, 289 00:15:53,836 --> 00:15:55,316 Speaker 1: they were going to play off each other. I would 290 00:15:55,356 --> 00:16:00,356 Speaker 1: play off myself and when we were playing backing track 291 00:16:00,396 --> 00:16:02,636 Speaker 1: back in the first guitar solo, I couldn't hear it, 292 00:16:02,956 --> 00:16:06,156 Speaker 1: and so we're gonna nix that song too, because well, 293 00:16:06,196 --> 00:16:08,196 Speaker 1: you know, maybe you're not gonna do the second solo. 294 00:16:08,596 --> 00:16:11,556 Speaker 1: But we figured out. Arthur and me talked and Arthur 295 00:16:11,636 --> 00:16:14,636 Speaker 1: was in the booth and we thought of me going 296 00:16:14,676 --> 00:16:16,796 Speaker 1: in the booth and playing it. But I needed the 297 00:16:16,916 --> 00:16:19,316 Speaker 1: amp to be really loud in order to get the 298 00:16:19,636 --> 00:16:22,476 Speaker 1: sounded it because I didn't use pedals. Everything he saw 299 00:16:22,716 --> 00:16:24,676 Speaker 1: was the amp, or you heard from me was what 300 00:16:24,916 --> 00:16:27,676 Speaker 1: was there, and so what was the equipment just so 301 00:16:27,916 --> 00:16:32,116 Speaker 1: that was a vox Ac thirty yes. And then I'm 302 00:16:32,116 --> 00:16:35,036 Speaker 1: playing a give some Less Paul nineteen fifty two goal 303 00:16:35,156 --> 00:16:40,996 Speaker 1: top with p ninety pickups. So I'm trying to do it, 304 00:16:41,036 --> 00:16:43,676 Speaker 1: and Arthur comes up with an idea. He says, I 305 00:16:43,716 --> 00:16:46,996 Speaker 1: will give you signals from the booth. So I'm there 306 00:16:46,996 --> 00:16:48,996 Speaker 1: and I can't hear it. I can hear the backing track, 307 00:16:49,036 --> 00:16:51,636 Speaker 1: but I can't hear my other guitar, and so he's 308 00:16:51,676 --> 00:16:53,916 Speaker 1: tells me when to go up and when to go down. 309 00:16:54,036 --> 00:16:56,436 Speaker 1: And that's what basically how I did the second part 310 00:16:56,476 --> 00:16:59,436 Speaker 1: of it, and it fits amazingly when I listened to it, 311 00:16:59,516 --> 00:17:01,916 Speaker 1: but I'm trying to follow him, and so I'm not 312 00:17:02,076 --> 00:17:07,196 Speaker 1: really concentrating on playing. I'm more concentrated on what he's doing. Yes, 313 00:17:07,236 --> 00:17:10,236 Speaker 1: and that's why that probably made it more. Yeah, it's 314 00:17:10,276 --> 00:17:13,756 Speaker 1: probably some of the best guitar I've ever done. And 315 00:17:13,756 --> 00:17:16,956 Speaker 1: it's amazing how that works now and amazing also how 316 00:17:16,996 --> 00:17:22,436 Speaker 1: it works not by planning but almost by working around 317 00:17:22,436 --> 00:17:25,116 Speaker 1: a problem. That's exactly what happened there was like the 318 00:17:25,236 --> 00:17:29,276 Speaker 1: universe wanted that song done, beautiful way right, Yeah, let's 319 00:17:29,276 --> 00:17:45,836 Speaker 1: do the next one, and you don't know much. It's 320 00:17:45,876 --> 00:17:50,796 Speaker 1: fascinating and it sounds so again, unlike anything else, even 321 00:17:50,876 --> 00:17:53,876 Speaker 1: guitar stylistically, it just feels like another It's coming from 322 00:17:53,876 --> 00:17:57,156 Speaker 1: another world. And that was another song. Aren't many of 323 00:17:57,276 --> 00:18:01,636 Speaker 1: other songs are about this particular lady Anita Billings. He 324 00:18:01,716 --> 00:18:05,236 Speaker 1: called her pretty and the song and More and the 325 00:18:05,316 --> 00:18:09,476 Speaker 1: first album this is and More again, so speaking about 326 00:18:09,516 --> 00:18:15,156 Speaker 1: the same lady Nita Billings and Arthur I think his 327 00:18:15,276 --> 00:18:20,236 Speaker 1: whole life because he really loved her and she was 328 00:18:20,276 --> 00:18:25,676 Speaker 1: his high school sweetheart, and her mother found her diary 329 00:18:25,916 --> 00:18:31,796 Speaker 1: and she had obviously bared her soul in the diary. 330 00:18:32,236 --> 00:18:37,116 Speaker 1: And the mother made her not see Arthur anymore, and 331 00:18:37,796 --> 00:18:41,076 Speaker 1: so basically the rest of his life he's pining for really, 332 00:18:41,156 --> 00:18:45,036 Speaker 1: for real, for this lady. And he got to see 333 00:18:45,036 --> 00:18:46,956 Speaker 1: her one more time when we're at the castle. She 334 00:18:47,036 --> 00:18:50,796 Speaker 1: comes there and he had that's the song I See 335 00:18:50,836 --> 00:18:52,876 Speaker 1: your pictures in the same old for him speaking of 336 00:18:52,876 --> 00:18:56,556 Speaker 1: her again. Wow, you know at the Castle. So many 337 00:18:56,596 --> 00:19:00,996 Speaker 1: of our songs are about this lady. Amazing. Anything else 338 00:19:00,996 --> 00:19:03,356 Speaker 1: you could think of about the song. This one of 339 00:19:03,476 --> 00:19:07,396 Speaker 1: Billy Strange is that there's the guys on the Reagan Crew. 340 00:19:07,396 --> 00:19:12,276 Speaker 1: Remember they played on two songs on Daily Planet. That's 341 00:19:12,316 --> 00:19:15,156 Speaker 1: Hal Blaying playing drums and Billy playing the guitar with 342 00:19:15,236 --> 00:19:19,316 Speaker 1: me and Brian, So Billy's playing with us. That's Brian, 343 00:19:19,476 --> 00:19:22,556 Speaker 1: Me and Billy Strange playing the guitar parts on that. 344 00:19:22,636 --> 00:19:26,276 Speaker 1: And the arrangement that David Angel did is just really, 345 00:19:26,276 --> 00:19:31,436 Speaker 1: really beautiful. The song sounded great without because he showed 346 00:19:31,516 --> 00:19:35,116 Speaker 1: us the arrangement after we had played, because we're initially 347 00:19:35,116 --> 00:19:37,276 Speaker 1: going to leave it alone and just leave it without 348 00:19:37,316 --> 00:19:41,316 Speaker 1: the strings, but then when we heard what his arrangement. Yeah, 349 00:19:41,356 --> 00:19:44,236 Speaker 1: it's so interesting that that little guitar moment right where 350 00:19:44,276 --> 00:19:48,636 Speaker 1: we stopped. I think of it as a string solo, 351 00:19:48,876 --> 00:19:51,196 Speaker 1: even though it's not. You know, it's just this, but 352 00:19:51,236 --> 00:19:54,556 Speaker 1: the strings make their entrance and it feels like, oh, 353 00:19:54,596 --> 00:20:00,796 Speaker 1: that's what's happening, but it's really just a backup report part. Yeah, 354 00:20:00,876 --> 00:20:04,396 Speaker 1: that's he really doesn't get the credit he deserves, David Angel, 355 00:20:04,476 --> 00:20:07,956 Speaker 1: but he would was able to insinuate the violin strings 356 00:20:07,996 --> 00:20:26,276 Speaker 1: into that. Yeah, yeah, really great. Okay, watching Dieu Magnificent, 357 00:20:26,676 --> 00:20:30,476 Speaker 1: that's a very dark song, you know, speaking of the 358 00:20:30,596 --> 00:20:34,156 Speaker 1: times in which we lived back then. But again that's 359 00:20:34,276 --> 00:20:37,116 Speaker 1: poetry put to music. You can just listen to the poetic. 360 00:20:37,156 --> 00:20:41,356 Speaker 1: And then we went to see a was at the 361 00:20:41,556 --> 00:20:45,116 Speaker 1: Art House because Murat saw it. It was about the 362 00:20:45,156 --> 00:20:49,276 Speaker 1: people in the mental institution. They're locking them up today. 363 00:20:49,596 --> 00:20:54,316 Speaker 1: There was a line from that that film, and so 364 00:20:54,556 --> 00:20:57,636 Speaker 1: Arthur was able to put that together into this song. 365 00:20:57,676 --> 00:21:00,596 Speaker 1: And it also makes sense now that talking about the 366 00:21:00,596 --> 00:21:04,196 Speaker 1: way the songs came about why the Doors would have 367 00:21:04,196 --> 00:21:08,436 Speaker 1: been so influenced by love because Jim basically a poet, yes, 368 00:21:08,716 --> 00:21:13,036 Speaker 1: a poet with a band. Yes, now we were you 369 00:21:13,076 --> 00:21:16,156 Speaker 1: know we still because we couldn't blame them for their success. 370 00:21:16,196 --> 00:21:19,076 Speaker 1: Of course, we that upset with the record company. But 371 00:21:19,476 --> 00:21:22,716 Speaker 1: we were always tight with them, and we you know, 372 00:21:22,756 --> 00:21:25,916 Speaker 1: even after not playing anymore, Jim and I often talked, 373 00:21:26,036 --> 00:21:28,876 Speaker 1: We're going to put together, you know, group and stuff. 374 00:21:28,916 --> 00:21:33,316 Speaker 1: Of course we never did, but we were good friends 375 00:21:33,356 --> 00:21:36,996 Speaker 1: and always really we felt kind of proud of them 376 00:21:37,036 --> 00:21:39,476 Speaker 1: because we knew had it not been for our just 377 00:21:40,276 --> 00:21:47,156 Speaker 1: tenacity rather and the doing the things the way we 378 00:21:47,236 --> 00:21:49,756 Speaker 1: did with Jack, there probably would have been no doors 379 00:21:49,796 --> 00:21:51,916 Speaker 1: because they were on the verge of going their separate 380 00:21:51,916 --> 00:21:56,556 Speaker 1: ways until they got a record contract. And also I 381 00:21:56,636 --> 00:21:59,116 Speaker 1: had spoken to him, and I think one of the 382 00:21:59,196 --> 00:22:03,756 Speaker 1: things that helped keep them together is rather than having 383 00:22:03,756 --> 00:22:07,276 Speaker 1: to continually want to receive credit I did this or 384 00:22:07,356 --> 00:22:11,636 Speaker 1: I did this, and people loggerheads, they decided that if 385 00:22:12,436 --> 00:22:15,516 Speaker 1: whoever wrote the song, they would all split, would always 386 00:22:15,516 --> 00:22:20,636 Speaker 1: be yes so. And that worked perfectly for them because 387 00:22:20,636 --> 00:22:23,476 Speaker 1: they didn't have to argue with each other who got 388 00:22:23,476 --> 00:22:26,796 Speaker 1: credit for what, you know, they all got credit. It's beautiful. 389 00:22:28,596 --> 00:22:33,796 Speaker 1: Oh the snot has caked again, small pens, it has 390 00:22:33,836 --> 00:22:41,876 Speaker 1: turned into crystal. There's a blue but ranch. Anything about 391 00:22:41,876 --> 00:22:45,076 Speaker 1: the lyrics or the poetry again, it was poetry, and 392 00:22:45,116 --> 00:22:47,516 Speaker 1: it was shocking poetry in the beginning the snot has 393 00:22:47,596 --> 00:22:49,996 Speaker 1: caked against my pants. You know, you can get the 394 00:22:50,116 --> 00:22:53,996 Speaker 1: image of that. That one is jarring in that the 395 00:22:54,156 --> 00:22:57,676 Speaker 1: lead guitar player lead guitar is rather out of place. 396 00:22:57,756 --> 00:23:01,196 Speaker 1: That's you got a soft, really orchestral song and all 397 00:23:01,236 --> 00:23:04,836 Speaker 1: of a sudden you've got to kind of really rock 398 00:23:04,956 --> 00:23:08,076 Speaker 1: us a guitar. And that even the style of the 399 00:23:08,276 --> 00:23:13,116 Speaker 1: vocals seems like old English, you know, like, h do 400 00:23:13,116 --> 00:23:15,436 Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, some of the songs, 401 00:23:15,436 --> 00:23:18,636 Speaker 1: and especially in Dacampo, had that feeling and yeah, which 402 00:23:18,676 --> 00:23:24,916 Speaker 1: really uh helps diffuse the lyrical content because of the 403 00:23:25,036 --> 00:23:28,356 Speaker 1: sort of formality of the way it's being delivered. Yes, 404 00:23:28,596 --> 00:23:32,276 Speaker 1: the words are easier to take and and it's so 405 00:23:32,436 --> 00:23:35,076 Speaker 1: clean the way it was done, you know everything, Like 406 00:23:35,356 --> 00:23:38,276 Speaker 1: as I mentioned earlier, we started out as roc as 407 00:23:38,316 --> 00:23:41,716 Speaker 1: wanting to have distortion to a very clean and even 408 00:23:41,756 --> 00:23:45,276 Speaker 1: the guitar solo there, that's just the vox Ac thirty 409 00:23:45,316 --> 00:23:50,276 Speaker 1: without anything at it. That's just the way it sounded. Yeah. Well, 410 00:23:50,316 --> 00:23:54,436 Speaker 1: I remember when a thing about possible good for you 411 00:23:58,196 --> 00:24:05,356 Speaker 1: we used around around around me. It's really interesting. Yeah, 412 00:24:05,436 --> 00:24:08,716 Speaker 1: Bummer in the Summer, Yeah, yeah, that was the one 413 00:24:10,116 --> 00:24:15,436 Speaker 1: Don Randy's playing the piano on that and it. David 414 00:24:15,476 --> 00:24:18,156 Speaker 1: Crosby had told us that music was going to be 415 00:24:18,236 --> 00:24:21,796 Speaker 1: changing and country was going to be very influential, and 416 00:24:21,836 --> 00:24:25,276 Speaker 1: so we kind of did a little country is Bow 417 00:24:25,356 --> 00:24:27,916 Speaker 1: Didley country kind of song, that's what that is, and 418 00:24:28,476 --> 00:24:31,476 Speaker 1: coming out of the Bo Diddley into the more classical 419 00:24:31,636 --> 00:24:35,076 Speaker 1: like just the way the pieces go together and the 420 00:24:35,156 --> 00:24:38,196 Speaker 1: counterpoint of Brian's guitar. Gus, there's actually two guitars, Brian 421 00:24:38,436 --> 00:24:42,356 Speaker 1: Doom Doom Doom, Da Da Doo doo and I'm playing Day, 422 00:24:42,516 --> 00:24:44,956 Speaker 1: so they kind of mixed together as those one guitar, 423 00:24:44,956 --> 00:24:47,716 Speaker 1: but that's two guitars playing off of each other and 424 00:24:47,836 --> 00:24:50,116 Speaker 1: almost reminds me like the kind of energy of like 425 00:24:50,756 --> 00:24:54,636 Speaker 1: in the context of The Wrecking Crew, like Glenn Campbell's 426 00:24:54,716 --> 00:24:59,676 Speaker 1: kind of driving guitar vibe related in pop music. He 427 00:24:59,796 --> 00:25:02,356 Speaker 1: was great. I learned a lot from him because before 428 00:25:02,596 --> 00:25:05,796 Speaker 1: Love we were assigned to Arthur Mee. Arthur was the 429 00:25:05,836 --> 00:25:10,476 Speaker 1: songwriter and I played sessions with Bob Keen at Delphi Records, 430 00:25:10,476 --> 00:25:13,756 Speaker 1: and so Glenn Campbell worked there as a studio guy himself. 431 00:25:14,276 --> 00:25:17,876 Speaker 1: Learned a lot from him. Yeah, it definitely feels like related. 432 00:25:17,996 --> 00:25:21,716 Speaker 1: You know, it's beautiful. Okay, we have one last song. Okay, 433 00:25:22,556 --> 00:25:26,516 Speaker 1: if you won't shit, bring you water. If you don't 434 00:25:27,116 --> 00:25:38,396 Speaker 1: will little backstory here. This was three separate songs that 435 00:25:38,476 --> 00:25:41,516 Speaker 1: we started working on and never finished, and Kenny, on 436 00:25:41,556 --> 00:25:44,756 Speaker 1: his own initiative, put those songs together and got them 437 00:25:44,756 --> 00:25:47,956 Speaker 1: in the right keys and made this into one song. 438 00:25:48,876 --> 00:25:51,396 Speaker 1: Much of it is talking about Anita Billings. You know, 439 00:25:51,436 --> 00:25:53,516 Speaker 1: I see a picture in the same old frame, and 440 00:25:53,636 --> 00:25:55,916 Speaker 1: that was we meet again, was him meeting her at 441 00:25:55,956 --> 00:25:58,836 Speaker 1: the castle and it not being the same as he 442 00:25:58,956 --> 00:26:01,956 Speaker 1: expected it to be. You know, they've both grown up 443 00:26:01,956 --> 00:26:03,596 Speaker 1: by then and they were That also has a little 444 00:26:03,636 --> 00:26:06,596 Speaker 1: bit of the country feeling are playing as well. Yeah, yeah, 445 00:26:06,676 --> 00:26:09,956 Speaker 1: And it was difficult to beginning because I would and 446 00:26:10,516 --> 00:26:13,276 Speaker 1: uh finger pick the first da da da da da 447 00:26:13,356 --> 00:26:17,036 Speaker 1: da da, and I was continually missing a beat, so 448 00:26:17,116 --> 00:26:19,516 Speaker 1: I had to do that with a pick in order 449 00:26:19,556 --> 00:26:21,996 Speaker 1: to get it to come out right. I see. And 450 00:26:22,156 --> 00:26:24,756 Speaker 1: that was probably one of my favorite songs to play 451 00:26:24,796 --> 00:26:28,436 Speaker 1: on stage because it goes through all of these changes. 452 00:26:27,076 --> 00:26:38,916 Speaker 1: Let's go by the time put yourself. It's incredible, it's incredible. 453 00:26:41,476 --> 00:26:46,596 Speaker 1: Was this prior to or inspired of David David axel 454 00:26:46,636 --> 00:26:50,076 Speaker 1: Rod's music, because this feels very I don't know what 455 00:26:50,156 --> 00:26:54,836 Speaker 1: came first though, I'm not sure which came first either, 456 00:26:54,916 --> 00:26:59,236 Speaker 1: but this, as I said, these were unfinished songs put 457 00:26:59,276 --> 00:27:02,796 Speaker 1: together into one and then the arrangements that again, I 458 00:27:02,796 --> 00:27:05,116 Speaker 1: have to give credit to David Angel because he was 459 00:27:05,156 --> 00:27:09,476 Speaker 1: able to seamlessly put these things together a beautiful and 460 00:27:09,556 --> 00:27:12,116 Speaker 1: so it was. It was meant to be that way. 461 00:27:12,116 --> 00:27:14,956 Speaker 1: It was meant to be this album because had it 462 00:27:15,156 --> 00:27:18,556 Speaker 1: had the other influences, I don't think it would have 463 00:27:18,756 --> 00:27:22,276 Speaker 1: had the same impact that it has. Because everything every 464 00:27:22,276 --> 00:27:24,956 Speaker 1: song on this album fits. It seems like they were 465 00:27:24,996 --> 00:27:28,836 Speaker 1: meant to be there. And the order. Then again, Jack Holsman, 466 00:27:28,876 --> 00:27:31,396 Speaker 1: they did a great job of putting the songs in 467 00:27:31,436 --> 00:27:35,436 Speaker 1: the proper order. So even after the frustration of it 468 00:27:35,516 --> 00:27:39,076 Speaker 1: not being the double album, when you finished this, we 469 00:27:39,236 --> 00:27:43,356 Speaker 1: pleased with it. Yes, yes, And everybody involved was feeling 470 00:27:43,356 --> 00:27:45,876 Speaker 1: good about it. Everybody was feeling great, and we thought 471 00:27:45,916 --> 00:27:48,116 Speaker 1: this was our magnum opus and this is going to 472 00:27:48,236 --> 00:27:50,796 Speaker 1: be it and it's gonna take us to the next level. Yes, 473 00:27:51,156 --> 00:27:56,476 Speaker 1: And the record company for some reason still wasn't you know. 474 00:27:56,516 --> 00:27:58,876 Speaker 1: We had a billboard there for a while, but we 475 00:27:58,876 --> 00:28:02,396 Speaker 1: weren't getting the kind of promotion that we felt it 476 00:28:03,356 --> 00:28:07,036 Speaker 1: we deserved, the song deserved. But then again, the song 477 00:28:07,196 --> 00:28:11,196 Speaker 1: was a bit yet because at that point in sixty eight, 478 00:28:11,276 --> 00:28:14,636 Speaker 1: you know, this isn't Martin Luther King is assassinated, Bobby 479 00:28:14,716 --> 00:28:18,436 Speaker 1: Kennedy and so much is happening at that time that 480 00:28:18,996 --> 00:28:21,436 Speaker 1: I think the song just kind of got lost because 481 00:28:21,476 --> 00:28:25,236 Speaker 1: people were more you know, interested in protests and the 482 00:28:25,756 --> 00:28:30,476 Speaker 1: Barry McGuire's stuff and you know, understood. So I think 483 00:28:30,636 --> 00:28:34,116 Speaker 1: that had this been released just a little earlier, it 484 00:28:34,196 --> 00:28:37,836 Speaker 1: might have done better. Yes, and it did well in Europe, 485 00:28:37,916 --> 00:28:42,276 Speaker 1: especially in the UK. It was when just shot up 486 00:28:42,316 --> 00:28:46,196 Speaker 1: the charts. It's just here. It did okay, but not 487 00:28:46,316 --> 00:28:49,196 Speaker 1: nearly as well as it shit. Maybe those events that 488 00:28:49,236 --> 00:28:52,396 Speaker 1: you're talking about that were a distraction here, maybe there 489 00:28:52,516 --> 00:28:56,836 Speaker 1: was weren't felt as strong. They weren't. And so because 490 00:28:56,876 --> 00:29:00,076 Speaker 1: at that point we were having a lot of turmoil happening, 491 00:29:00,116 --> 00:29:02,956 Speaker 1: you know, riots in the streets and people burning shit down, 492 00:29:02,996 --> 00:29:07,516 Speaker 1: and so it was it was a tough time. Normally 493 00:29:07,916 --> 00:29:11,396 Speaker 1: most of our music reflected the time, but it took 494 00:29:11,436 --> 00:29:13,476 Speaker 1: a while. You have to listen to this album, it's 495 00:29:13,516 --> 00:29:15,716 Speaker 1: not one that you just put on and danced. You 496 00:29:15,876 --> 00:29:17,716 Speaker 1: really have to sit back and listen to it, and 497 00:29:17,756 --> 00:29:20,836 Speaker 1: you have to listen to the words because they have meaning, 498 00:29:20,996 --> 00:29:23,876 Speaker 1: you know, the whole album. And as I said, people 499 00:29:23,916 --> 00:29:27,436 Speaker 1: were ready for you know, just loud rock, us in 500 00:29:27,516 --> 00:29:30,516 Speaker 1: your face stuff, and this was a very subtle and 501 00:29:30,516 --> 00:29:32,436 Speaker 1: it told a story and it told it in a 502 00:29:32,476 --> 00:29:35,876 Speaker 1: way that was not in your face the way some 503 00:29:35,956 --> 00:29:38,476 Speaker 1: of the music was at that time. So it was 504 00:29:38,516 --> 00:29:41,876 Speaker 1: something you listen to in your introspective and you say, wow, 505 00:29:41,956 --> 00:29:44,796 Speaker 1: that's that's right, or you know, it gives you a 506 00:29:44,876 --> 00:29:49,276 Speaker 1: different perspective than what was happening. You know, people were 507 00:29:49,316 --> 00:29:53,196 Speaker 1: really uptight. You know. The best wagon put it is 508 00:29:53,236 --> 00:29:56,156 Speaker 1: just you look at the sixties as all peace and 509 00:29:56,276 --> 00:30:00,276 Speaker 1: love and harmony, and you know there were sometimes like that, 510 00:30:00,556 --> 00:30:03,076 Speaker 1: but then there were other times that were just you know, 511 00:30:03,396 --> 00:30:07,436 Speaker 1: really really raw. We have to pause for a quick break, 512 00:30:07,716 --> 00:30:10,076 Speaker 1: but we'll be right back with more Johnny Eccles and 513 00:30:10,236 --> 00:30:18,036 Speaker 1: Rick Rubin. We're back with more from Rick Rubin's conversation 514 00:30:18,356 --> 00:30:22,516 Speaker 1: with Johnny Eccles. There have been other great albums that 515 00:30:22,556 --> 00:30:27,156 Speaker 1: have come along that in their wake will may have 516 00:30:27,396 --> 00:30:31,396 Speaker 1: started a whole new movement and for whatever reason, this 517 00:30:31,436 --> 00:30:37,236 Speaker 1: beautiful album is well loved everywhere in the world. Yet 518 00:30:38,076 --> 00:30:41,436 Speaker 1: it's the only one. Nobody continued the path. And I've 519 00:30:41,436 --> 00:30:45,316 Speaker 1: been thinking about it as someone who helps support artists 520 00:30:45,356 --> 00:30:49,516 Speaker 1: make music, and I don't know who could even make it, Like, 521 00:30:49,516 --> 00:30:51,396 Speaker 1: I don't know who else knows how to make it. 522 00:30:51,396 --> 00:30:54,156 Speaker 1: It's such an unusual thing. We have to go back 523 00:30:54,196 --> 00:30:58,596 Speaker 1: to the beginning days of the recording and then you 524 00:30:58,636 --> 00:31:01,076 Speaker 1: can kind of see how it progressed and how it 525 00:31:01,156 --> 00:31:05,876 Speaker 1: actually came to be what it was, because it initially 526 00:31:05,956 --> 00:31:09,556 Speaker 1: was meant to be an entirely different album. Arthur was 527 00:31:09,876 --> 00:31:15,396 Speaker 1: a premiere vocalist and wordsmith. He wrote wonderful poetry, but 528 00:31:15,476 --> 00:31:17,956 Speaker 1: he wasn't a musician. He kind of played a little 529 00:31:17,996 --> 00:31:23,156 Speaker 1: bit on keyboards and that was it. But Arthur would 530 00:31:23,196 --> 00:31:27,076 Speaker 1: sing the songs, and I mean we always would hear 531 00:31:27,156 --> 00:31:29,556 Speaker 1: him singing every We lived in a place we called 532 00:31:29,596 --> 00:31:32,556 Speaker 1: the Castle, so we lived together and all day long, 533 00:31:32,716 --> 00:31:35,716 Speaker 1: Arthur would be singing these songs, right, And so Brian 534 00:31:35,756 --> 00:31:39,836 Speaker 1: and me put the music to these songs. And once 535 00:31:39,836 --> 00:31:43,516 Speaker 1: we started recording the first album, everyone received their writer's 536 00:31:43,596 --> 00:31:46,436 Speaker 1: credit and it was cool. The second album, even though 537 00:31:47,436 --> 00:31:49,996 Speaker 1: the method was still the same. Brian and I put 538 00:31:49,996 --> 00:31:52,796 Speaker 1: the music to Arthur's words. Now they were giving Arthur 539 00:31:53,076 --> 00:31:56,836 Speaker 1: credit for this, and it was pissing everybody off because that's, 540 00:31:56,956 --> 00:32:00,156 Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of money, first of all, 541 00:32:00,316 --> 00:32:04,396 Speaker 1: besides the recognition and publishing and songwriting that actually that's 542 00:32:04,516 --> 00:32:07,836 Speaker 1: where most of the income comes from. And so we 543 00:32:07,836 --> 00:32:10,316 Speaker 1: were upset and we were Brian and I were talking 544 00:32:10,316 --> 00:32:13,436 Speaker 1: about just splitting up and going our own ways, and 545 00:32:13,796 --> 00:32:17,356 Speaker 1: Arthur convinced us that he had spoken with Jack Holsman 546 00:32:17,516 --> 00:32:20,956 Speaker 1: and that we would do a double album Forever Changes, 547 00:32:20,996 --> 00:32:24,916 Speaker 1: which it was called to Get Simony Project. In the beginning, 548 00:32:25,036 --> 00:32:29,036 Speaker 1: what was it called Get Simony right? And you know 549 00:32:29,076 --> 00:32:31,636 Speaker 1: what do you know why? Well, there was a lot 550 00:32:31,676 --> 00:32:36,036 Speaker 1: of chaos going. Get Simony is where Jesus was basically betrayed. 551 00:32:36,116 --> 00:32:39,396 Speaker 1: And so we were looking at ourselves as being betrayed 552 00:32:39,436 --> 00:32:42,356 Speaker 1: by our friend. Because when we started out, we were 553 00:32:42,356 --> 00:32:44,996 Speaker 1: all together. We were friends. As I said, we lived together, 554 00:32:45,076 --> 00:32:49,516 Speaker 1: work each other's clothing, dated the same chicks. So and 555 00:32:49,556 --> 00:32:53,396 Speaker 1: then all of a sudden, once love was becoming successful, 556 00:32:53,876 --> 00:32:56,916 Speaker 1: we noted a change. And then one person is being 557 00:32:56,996 --> 00:33:00,396 Speaker 1: singled out and given all the recognition, and we were 558 00:33:00,436 --> 00:33:04,836 Speaker 1: not happy with that. So Arthur had convinced us that 559 00:33:04,876 --> 00:33:06,836 Speaker 1: we were going to have a double album as I said, 560 00:33:06,916 --> 00:33:09,676 Speaker 1: and Brian would have one side and I would have 561 00:33:09,756 --> 00:33:12,396 Speaker 1: one side, and Arthur would have the other two sides, 562 00:33:12,396 --> 00:33:16,116 Speaker 1: so basically four sides. And so we agreed to that. 563 00:33:16,516 --> 00:33:19,356 Speaker 1: And we had been working on these songs for months 564 00:33:19,396 --> 00:33:23,476 Speaker 1: and months, and when we got to the studio everything changed. 565 00:33:23,796 --> 00:33:27,636 Speaker 1: We were told that it was too expensive. But the 566 00:33:27,676 --> 00:33:30,196 Speaker 1: Doors had broken and they were selling, you know, quite 567 00:33:30,236 --> 00:33:35,836 Speaker 1: a few records, and so the Doors were label mates. Yes, yes, 568 00:33:35,916 --> 00:33:40,316 Speaker 1: and so they Electra said that they were doing a 569 00:33:40,356 --> 00:33:43,156 Speaker 1: new project with the Doors and it was too expensive 570 00:33:43,156 --> 00:33:45,876 Speaker 1: because when we started, Electra was a very very tiny 571 00:33:46,036 --> 00:33:49,636 Speaker 1: folk music label. And the reason we signed with them 572 00:33:50,236 --> 00:33:53,116 Speaker 1: was I was a friend or my parents were friends 573 00:33:53,116 --> 00:33:56,756 Speaker 1: of Little Richard, and Little Richard would say, always own 574 00:33:56,836 --> 00:34:00,716 Speaker 1: your music. Don't let anybody take the copyrights our own 575 00:34:00,796 --> 00:34:05,076 Speaker 1: in mushit. So Jack Holtzman was the only one out 576 00:34:05,076 --> 00:34:07,276 Speaker 1: of all of the record companies that wanted to sign 577 00:34:07,436 --> 00:34:10,436 Speaker 1: us that allowed us to own the publishing. And so 578 00:34:10,476 --> 00:34:12,516 Speaker 1: that's why we signed with him, even though we were 579 00:34:12,556 --> 00:34:15,916 Speaker 1: offered much much more money to sign with other labels. 580 00:34:16,436 --> 00:34:19,076 Speaker 1: And so we did so thinking that, you know, after 581 00:34:19,396 --> 00:34:21,876 Speaker 1: we went to Canners and had to talk with him 582 00:34:21,956 --> 00:34:26,196 Speaker 1: and he seemed cool, so we decided to sign with him. 583 00:34:26,236 --> 00:34:29,396 Speaker 1: So now I get to the point where we get 584 00:34:29,436 --> 00:34:31,836 Speaker 1: to the studio and they decided that it's going to 585 00:34:31,916 --> 00:34:34,716 Speaker 1: be a single album and we'd do the other part 586 00:34:34,836 --> 00:34:38,436 Speaker 1: later as a second totally a different album. Well, now 587 00:34:38,476 --> 00:34:42,716 Speaker 1: everybody's pissed off Brian, especially because you know, Brian is 588 00:34:43,116 --> 00:34:46,076 Speaker 1: really a gifted songwriter and he wanted this stuff heard 589 00:34:46,116 --> 00:34:48,956 Speaker 1: and he was only getting one song here, two songs there, 590 00:34:49,356 --> 00:34:54,276 Speaker 1: and so he decided that he would lay back on 591 00:34:54,396 --> 00:34:56,596 Speaker 1: Arthur's stuff, in other words, instead of doing the little 592 00:34:56,596 --> 00:34:59,156 Speaker 1: things that he did that made this stuff sound really 593 00:34:59,236 --> 00:35:02,236 Speaker 1: cool and like, oh, he would just lay back and 594 00:35:02,276 --> 00:35:05,236 Speaker 1: have Arthur tell him what he wanted to play. Well, Arthur, 595 00:35:05,316 --> 00:35:07,476 Speaker 1: not being a musician, didn't know what to tell him. 596 00:35:07,516 --> 00:35:10,116 Speaker 1: So it was kind of chaos, Dick, when we were 597 00:35:10,156 --> 00:35:14,636 Speaker 1: in the studio after getting this information from Bruce Botnick. 598 00:35:15,276 --> 00:35:18,236 Speaker 1: And then the day we get to the studio, there's 599 00:35:18,316 --> 00:35:21,036 Speaker 1: Neil Young there and Neil is our friend. We hang 600 00:35:21,076 --> 00:35:24,516 Speaker 1: with him, smoked ope with him, you know, and Bruce 601 00:35:24,556 --> 00:35:28,156 Speaker 1: tells us that Neil is going to produce the album. 602 00:35:28,316 --> 00:35:31,116 Speaker 1: Now we were not. You know, that was funny. So 603 00:35:31,196 --> 00:35:34,196 Speaker 1: we all started laughing and stuff, because you know, we're 604 00:35:34,196 --> 00:35:36,756 Speaker 1: not gonna listen to Neil. Neil is one of us. 605 00:35:37,996 --> 00:35:41,756 Speaker 1: So they Bruce calls back to New York and speaks 606 00:35:41,796 --> 00:35:44,796 Speaker 1: to the record company and then so we all of 607 00:35:44,796 --> 00:35:47,356 Speaker 1: a sudden are on the outs with the record company 608 00:35:47,396 --> 00:35:49,276 Speaker 1: because they had had this Whose idea was it for 609 00:35:49,356 --> 00:35:52,196 Speaker 1: Neil to produce it? That was Bruce Botnick. Bruce was 610 00:35:52,316 --> 00:35:55,516 Speaker 1: Neil's friend also, and Neil was broke at the time. 611 00:35:55,556 --> 00:35:58,396 Speaker 1: I mean he was getting kicked out of his apartment 612 00:35:58,556 --> 00:36:02,116 Speaker 1: or house, I guess, and so the money from producing 613 00:36:02,116 --> 00:36:05,076 Speaker 1: the album would have really helped a lot, and they 614 00:36:05,116 --> 00:36:08,396 Speaker 1: had given him an advance. Bruce was sold, you know, 615 00:36:08,596 --> 00:36:10,916 Speaker 1: into him doing it, that he'd managed to get him 616 00:36:10,916 --> 00:36:13,996 Speaker 1: in advance, and when he realized that it wasn't happening, 617 00:36:13,996 --> 00:36:17,156 Speaker 1: that we were not going to do that. Arthur had 618 00:36:17,196 --> 00:36:21,036 Speaker 1: been slated to produce this album, and Arthur knew what 619 00:36:21,116 --> 00:36:23,756 Speaker 1: his song sounded like, he knew what our sounded like. 620 00:36:23,876 --> 00:36:26,956 Speaker 1: So we thought that's cool because basically we all would 621 00:36:26,956 --> 00:36:29,116 Speaker 1: do that together anyway, and Arthur would just be the 622 00:36:29,156 --> 00:36:33,956 Speaker 1: one out front. The record company designed it that they 623 00:36:33,996 --> 00:36:36,276 Speaker 1: wanted to have an adult in the room, so they 624 00:36:36,596 --> 00:36:40,076 Speaker 1: brought had Bruce, who normally was our engineer. They had 625 00:36:40,156 --> 00:36:43,716 Speaker 1: him act as producer even though he produced nothing, but 626 00:36:43,756 --> 00:36:46,356 Speaker 1: he was still part. He was already part of your team. 627 00:36:46,956 --> 00:36:51,756 Speaker 1: He had or engineered the first album. The second album 628 00:36:51,796 --> 00:36:55,716 Speaker 1: he had nothing to do. Well. Interesting, yeah, so we 629 00:36:55,716 --> 00:36:58,556 Speaker 1: were not that pleased, as I had I had mentioned before, 630 00:36:58,716 --> 00:37:00,916 Speaker 1: because the first album didn't turn out the way we 631 00:37:01,036 --> 00:37:03,596 Speaker 1: wanted it too. You know. We were a hard rock 632 00:37:03,636 --> 00:37:06,836 Speaker 1: at that time, a hard rock driving group, and we 633 00:37:06,956 --> 00:37:09,676 Speaker 1: wanted it to sound like that, yes, and it didn't 634 00:37:09,676 --> 00:37:12,436 Speaker 1: to us, So we weren't happy with him. So the 635 00:37:12,516 --> 00:37:16,956 Speaker 1: next album we went to our cia and Dave Passenger, 636 00:37:16,956 --> 00:37:19,996 Speaker 1: who had worked with The Stones and many other hard rockers, 637 00:37:20,716 --> 00:37:24,156 Speaker 1: was the engineer. So Bruce was kind of on the periphery. 638 00:37:24,276 --> 00:37:27,476 Speaker 1: We knew him, but we were not all that enamored 639 00:37:27,516 --> 00:37:31,396 Speaker 1: with him, you know. So anyway, they work it out 640 00:37:31,516 --> 00:37:34,276 Speaker 1: and he's going to act basically as the adult in 641 00:37:34,316 --> 00:37:38,276 Speaker 1: the room and we start the album. Brian and me 642 00:37:38,356 --> 00:37:41,956 Speaker 1: are both still pissed off, and so, as I said before, 643 00:37:41,996 --> 00:37:45,036 Speaker 1: Brian lays off and he just kinds of phones it 644 00:37:45,116 --> 00:37:48,756 Speaker 1: in and it's not happening. Everybody can see that, Wow, 645 00:37:49,156 --> 00:37:52,436 Speaker 1: this doesn't sound like a completed record, which it wasn't. 646 00:37:52,476 --> 00:37:55,756 Speaker 1: You know. It was just you know, stuff that Arthur 647 00:37:55,796 --> 00:37:58,036 Speaker 1: had written and you know, the words, as I said, 648 00:37:58,356 --> 00:38:01,476 Speaker 1: And normally we would really get behind it and do 649 00:38:01,556 --> 00:38:04,276 Speaker 1: the best we could with the music, and this time 650 00:38:04,356 --> 00:38:09,436 Speaker 1: that wasn't happening, and so it sounded really not very 651 00:38:09,436 --> 00:38:14,316 Speaker 1: good initially. So the record company brought in the guys 652 00:38:14,356 --> 00:38:17,356 Speaker 1: from the Wrecking Crew and they were going to lay 653 00:38:17,396 --> 00:38:19,636 Speaker 1: down the basic tracks and then we would add the 654 00:38:19,676 --> 00:38:23,196 Speaker 1: flourishes and our little things that made us sound like love. 655 00:38:23,916 --> 00:38:28,156 Speaker 1: And so they came into the studio and started to play, 656 00:38:28,596 --> 00:38:32,076 Speaker 1: and it was soon realized that they sounded nothing like us. 657 00:38:32,076 --> 00:38:34,916 Speaker 1: They were fantastic musicians, but they didn't sound like us, 658 00:38:35,396 --> 00:38:39,756 Speaker 1: and that wasn't gonna work. So after a lot of 659 00:38:39,876 --> 00:38:44,356 Speaker 1: back and forth, we took a break and decided to 660 00:38:44,476 --> 00:38:46,876 Speaker 1: go back and work on these songs and do a 661 00:38:46,876 --> 00:38:50,876 Speaker 1: little bit better. And I said, Brian, is this how 662 00:38:51,116 --> 00:38:53,316 Speaker 1: this may very well be our last album? Is this 663 00:38:53,436 --> 00:38:55,556 Speaker 1: how you want to be remembered? It's how you want 664 00:38:55,556 --> 00:38:57,996 Speaker 1: to go out? And he said, no man, and so 665 00:38:58,076 --> 00:39:01,636 Speaker 1: let's let's just do it. So we started rehearsing and 666 00:39:01,756 --> 00:39:05,116 Speaker 1: we put the music together for Arthur's words, and the 667 00:39:05,196 --> 00:39:08,196 Speaker 1: album is what you hear, and we all along knew 668 00:39:08,236 --> 00:39:11,476 Speaker 1: that it would be a different album. So we're going 669 00:39:11,516 --> 00:39:14,396 Speaker 1: to do strings. Rock and roll at that time wasn't 670 00:39:14,396 --> 00:39:18,836 Speaker 1: necessarily heavily involved with strings and horns and stuff, so 671 00:39:19,036 --> 00:39:21,316 Speaker 1: we decided that we were going to push the envelope 672 00:39:21,316 --> 00:39:25,076 Speaker 1: a bit. And the Beatles were a huge influence on us, 673 00:39:25,076 --> 00:39:27,316 Speaker 1: you know, the Sergeant Pepper and how they'd put all 674 00:39:27,316 --> 00:39:29,556 Speaker 1: of that together, so we thought we would go in 675 00:39:29,556 --> 00:39:33,436 Speaker 1: that direction. How recently was Sergeant Pepper released? From the 676 00:39:33,476 --> 00:39:36,396 Speaker 1: time you were making your album, Oh gosh, a little 677 00:39:36,396 --> 00:39:38,916 Speaker 1: bit before we actually got to the studio the first 678 00:39:38,956 --> 00:39:41,916 Speaker 1: time to start, just maybe a month or two. But 679 00:39:42,116 --> 00:39:44,516 Speaker 1: we had been working on these songs, but they sounded 680 00:39:44,596 --> 00:39:47,516 Speaker 1: different until we decided we were going to do strings 681 00:39:47,516 --> 00:39:51,916 Speaker 1: and horns and have astand more of an eclectic feel. 682 00:39:52,196 --> 00:39:57,396 Speaker 1: And so I had I'm very much into blues, old 683 00:39:57,396 --> 00:39:59,756 Speaker 1: school blues, so my things were going to be in 684 00:39:59,796 --> 00:40:03,996 Speaker 1: that vein. And Brian dug folk music and Broadway shows 685 00:40:04,076 --> 00:40:06,836 Speaker 1: and stuff, and his things would be in that vein, 686 00:40:07,076 --> 00:40:10,716 Speaker 1: and Arthur would be Arthur, you know, the the amalgamum 687 00:40:10,716 --> 00:40:13,996 Speaker 1: of all of us putting our musical abilities together to 688 00:40:14,076 --> 00:40:17,116 Speaker 1: come up with the sound that was recognizable as Love. 689 00:40:18,036 --> 00:40:21,556 Speaker 1: And so that's basically what we did. We went into 690 00:40:21,596 --> 00:40:24,956 Speaker 1: the studio and laid down the basic tracks, but this 691 00:40:25,036 --> 00:40:29,276 Speaker 1: time we were doing it with purpose and decided to 692 00:40:29,316 --> 00:40:32,556 Speaker 1: do it right rather than phoning it in. How did 693 00:40:32,556 --> 00:40:37,436 Speaker 1: it end up being so acoustic based considering the fact that, 694 00:40:37,916 --> 00:40:40,836 Speaker 1: as you described, Love previously had been a really hard 695 00:40:40,916 --> 00:40:45,076 Speaker 1: driving rock band. This album has a much softer side 696 00:40:45,116 --> 00:40:49,276 Speaker 1: to it does because back then, if you listen to 697 00:40:49,316 --> 00:40:52,796 Speaker 1: the radio, everything was eclectic. You could hear Frank Sinatra, 698 00:40:52,876 --> 00:40:55,356 Speaker 1: and then you would hear the Birds or Bob Dylan 699 00:40:56,116 --> 00:40:59,876 Speaker 1: or very saddler. You know, you'd hear different kinds of music. 700 00:41:00,156 --> 00:41:02,116 Speaker 1: So that's what we were trying to do with the 701 00:41:02,116 --> 00:41:05,196 Speaker 1: album is reflect the times in which we lived. So 702 00:41:05,236 --> 00:41:09,036 Speaker 1: the album sounds the way it did serendipity, it was 703 00:41:09,396 --> 00:41:11,276 Speaker 1: meant to sound that way. It was meant to be 704 00:41:11,636 --> 00:41:15,196 Speaker 1: a very eclectic, as I said, album. Yeah, so we 705 00:41:15,236 --> 00:41:17,476 Speaker 1: get to the studio and this time, as I said, 706 00:41:17,476 --> 00:41:20,356 Speaker 1: we're doing it right and We have David Angel, and 707 00:41:20,836 --> 00:41:23,196 Speaker 1: we didn't know him at the time, but he was 708 00:41:23,236 --> 00:41:26,516 Speaker 1: about in the same age group as us, and the 709 00:41:26,516 --> 00:41:29,556 Speaker 1: man was a genius. He could just listen to little 710 00:41:29,596 --> 00:41:32,516 Speaker 1: parts of stuff and just weave it. And it sounds 711 00:41:32,636 --> 00:41:37,156 Speaker 1: as though it was all a cohesive thing that was 712 00:41:37,196 --> 00:41:39,636 Speaker 1: meant to be that way. But you know, when we 713 00:41:39,876 --> 00:41:42,796 Speaker 1: started it, even though when we initially were putting the 714 00:41:42,916 --> 00:41:46,556 Speaker 1: music together, we didn't know if the record company was 715 00:41:46,596 --> 00:41:50,076 Speaker 1: going to follow through because they had already burned us 716 00:41:50,116 --> 00:41:53,316 Speaker 1: by not doing the double album. So we were leaving 717 00:41:53,436 --> 00:41:57,316 Speaker 1: room for strings and horns without knowing whether or not 718 00:41:57,356 --> 00:42:00,876 Speaker 1: they would actually be on the album. So that in 719 00:42:00,956 --> 00:42:04,436 Speaker 1: itself was difficult to do, and I think it turned out. 720 00:42:04,636 --> 00:42:07,876 Speaker 1: It's very interesting. I love the previous love albums as well. 721 00:42:08,636 --> 00:42:11,836 Speaker 1: It's it's just interesting how different this one is than 722 00:42:11,876 --> 00:42:15,436 Speaker 1: the ones before it, and again just that question of 723 00:42:15,996 --> 00:42:19,316 Speaker 1: why does this thing stand in time all by itself, 724 00:42:19,356 --> 00:42:22,356 Speaker 1: and it's it's interesting. Yeah, And as I mentioned the singularity, 725 00:42:22,436 --> 00:42:26,796 Speaker 1: the universe seemed to just at that point decide that 726 00:42:26,916 --> 00:42:29,316 Speaker 1: it was going to do that because all of these things, 727 00:42:29,836 --> 00:42:34,356 Speaker 1: if you the chaos that was going on, the hard feelings, 728 00:42:34,396 --> 00:42:37,476 Speaker 1: the darkness that was happening, the fact that the album 729 00:42:38,436 --> 00:42:41,516 Speaker 1: really was very close to not being done at all, 730 00:42:41,756 --> 00:42:44,676 Speaker 1: and for it to come out that way with all 731 00:42:44,716 --> 00:42:47,716 Speaker 1: of these things going against us, Yes, and to turn 732 00:42:47,756 --> 00:42:50,076 Speaker 1: out that way because had it been the album that 733 00:42:50,156 --> 00:42:54,156 Speaker 1: we initially envisioned, it would have been entirely different, and 734 00:42:54,316 --> 00:42:56,756 Speaker 1: I don't know if it would have had the impact 735 00:42:56,836 --> 00:43:00,956 Speaker 1: that this one had. By the time Forever Changes was finished, 736 00:43:01,396 --> 00:43:05,076 Speaker 1: and we were basically at each other's throats, you know, 737 00:43:05,156 --> 00:43:09,996 Speaker 1: we did tour, but we were starting to trust each 738 00:43:09,996 --> 00:43:13,596 Speaker 1: other and because of the way that went down, you know, 739 00:43:13,836 --> 00:43:17,196 Speaker 1: because we felt we were being played. We felt that 740 00:43:17,236 --> 00:43:19,156 Speaker 1: they had lied to us, telling us we were going 741 00:43:19,236 --> 00:43:22,756 Speaker 1: to do this. And was Arthur equally upset with the 742 00:43:22,956 --> 00:43:25,516 Speaker 1: no double album or no, he was that that was 743 00:43:25,556 --> 00:43:27,676 Speaker 1: the thing. He was fine with it because yeah, we're 744 00:43:27,676 --> 00:43:30,956 Speaker 1: playing about this stuff. He got stuff his way and 745 00:43:30,996 --> 00:43:34,596 Speaker 1: then but you don't think that he politicked to get 746 00:43:34,596 --> 00:43:38,596 Speaker 1: it that way. I don't know. I at times think 747 00:43:38,676 --> 00:43:42,556 Speaker 1: that he may have because he had friends, sycophants, hangers 748 00:43:42,596 --> 00:43:45,116 Speaker 1: on that were telling him how grade he was, and 749 00:43:45,316 --> 00:43:47,716 Speaker 1: they didn't know the inner workings. They didn't know that 750 00:43:48,116 --> 00:43:52,316 Speaker 1: m Arthur wouldn't know a suspension chord from you know, 751 00:43:52,756 --> 00:43:56,796 Speaker 1: a hole in the ground. So he had, you know, 752 00:43:56,836 --> 00:44:01,356 Speaker 1: as I set sycophanse, who would would continually uh burnish 753 00:44:01,436 --> 00:44:04,556 Speaker 1: his ego and tell him he's called that LSD lead 754 00:44:04,716 --> 00:44:11,036 Speaker 1: Singer disease. Yeah. So Arthur by this time, you know, 755 00:44:11,556 --> 00:44:15,996 Speaker 1: is thinking that he doesn't really need the rest of 756 00:44:16,036 --> 00:44:19,076 Speaker 1: these guys. So that's the attitude that he's kind of 757 00:44:19,916 --> 00:44:24,036 Speaker 1: projecting to us. And then we find out that Brian, 758 00:44:24,756 --> 00:44:27,196 Speaker 1: unbeknownst to any of us, had worked out a separate 759 00:44:27,276 --> 00:44:30,716 Speaker 1: arrangement with Electra in order for him to finish his 760 00:44:30,956 --> 00:44:33,916 Speaker 1: parts on Forever Changes. They were going to give him 761 00:44:34,116 --> 00:44:38,076 Speaker 1: a solo deal to release a solo okay, but we 762 00:44:38,116 --> 00:44:40,596 Speaker 1: were gonna still keep love. But he would have done that, 763 00:44:40,716 --> 00:44:45,116 Speaker 1: and they offered us the same kind of arrangement. So 764 00:44:45,236 --> 00:44:48,236 Speaker 1: Brian calls me and tells me about it, and I said, wow, 765 00:44:48,276 --> 00:44:51,316 Speaker 1: that's great. Let's go chat with Arthur bound and see 766 00:44:51,316 --> 00:44:56,156 Speaker 1: what he thinks. And Brian says, Arthur, I've got a 767 00:44:56,156 --> 00:44:58,316 Speaker 1: record deal with the Elector I'm going to release a 768 00:44:58,396 --> 00:45:01,516 Speaker 1: single and all of that, And Arthur says, wow, Brian, 769 00:45:01,596 --> 00:45:05,596 Speaker 1: that's fantastic. You're fired so that was the end of 770 00:45:05,716 --> 00:45:12,396 Speaker 1: basically Brian's involvement forever. Just like that. Wow, would you 771 00:45:12,396 --> 00:45:16,636 Speaker 1: say as a rule, was Arthur an unreasonable person? Arthur 772 00:45:16,716 --> 00:45:19,596 Speaker 1: was becoming more and more. He was becoming a kind 773 00:45:19,636 --> 00:45:22,516 Speaker 1: of a caricature of the Arthur that I knew because 774 00:45:22,556 --> 00:45:27,356 Speaker 1: he was Arthur in success. Yes, the success was affecting him. 775 00:45:27,756 --> 00:45:30,596 Speaker 1: And he also was an attention hawk. He loved to 776 00:45:30,636 --> 00:45:34,476 Speaker 1: be the center of attention. So Arthur would in the summer, 777 00:45:34,516 --> 00:45:37,236 Speaker 1: he'd wear a fur coat on stage, you know, and 778 00:45:37,276 --> 00:45:40,476 Speaker 1: it stuff like anything to get attention he would do. 779 00:45:41,356 --> 00:45:43,476 Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a break with more from 780 00:45:43,556 --> 00:45:50,876 Speaker 1: Johnny Eccles and Rick Rubin. We're back with the rest 781 00:45:50,876 --> 00:45:54,956 Speaker 1: of Rick Rubin's interview with Johnny eccles. What was life 782 00:45:54,996 --> 00:45:59,196 Speaker 1: like in love pre putting out even the first album? Okay, well, pree, 783 00:45:59,356 --> 00:46:03,236 Speaker 1: we go back now, Okay, from high school. Billy Preston 784 00:46:03,316 --> 00:46:06,356 Speaker 1: and I were in high school together, and so is 785 00:46:06,396 --> 00:46:08,956 Speaker 1: Marilyn the coup of the Fifth Dimension in ron Town 786 00:46:09,156 --> 00:46:13,236 Speaker 1: and was the janitor at our high school. So Billy 787 00:46:13,316 --> 00:46:15,716 Speaker 1: and I had the first group. So Billy Preston and 788 00:46:15,796 --> 00:46:18,916 Speaker 1: Henry Vestein later of Canned Heat was a friend, and 789 00:46:18,956 --> 00:46:22,076 Speaker 1: so we had a group and we played bar metzvahs 790 00:46:22,156 --> 00:46:25,676 Speaker 1: and funerals, weddings, whatever you know, to get paid. So 791 00:46:25,756 --> 00:46:30,596 Speaker 1: we played those, and Arthur came to one of the 792 00:46:30,636 --> 00:46:34,156 Speaker 1: assemblies in high school and he saw the group playing. 793 00:46:34,236 --> 00:46:38,236 Speaker 1: Now Arthur at that point was into sports. And I 794 00:46:38,356 --> 00:46:41,676 Speaker 1: had known Arthur my entire life. Our families go back 795 00:46:41,716 --> 00:46:44,516 Speaker 1: to before we were even born, before our mothers were 796 00:46:44,516 --> 00:46:47,556 Speaker 1: even born, how far they go back, And so I 797 00:46:47,596 --> 00:46:50,276 Speaker 1: had known him all my life. And I knew Arthur, 798 00:46:50,716 --> 00:46:55,076 Speaker 1: you know, poetry, but I had no idea he could sing, yes, 799 00:46:55,476 --> 00:46:59,356 Speaker 1: and was because he couldn't play an instrument. He learned accordion, 800 00:46:59,436 --> 00:47:01,316 Speaker 1: and then he switched over to Oregon because there was 801 00:47:01,316 --> 00:47:03,196 Speaker 1: a guy that was going door to door in our 802 00:47:03,196 --> 00:47:08,316 Speaker 1: neighborhood selling music lessons, and so Arthur took accordion lessons, 803 00:47:08,796 --> 00:47:11,836 Speaker 1: and my father was put on the hook for a 804 00:47:11,876 --> 00:47:15,916 Speaker 1: three hundred dollars guitar, which back then was an absolute fortune. Yes, 805 00:47:16,076 --> 00:47:19,236 Speaker 1: And so I started playing, and I took lessons from 806 00:47:19,636 --> 00:47:22,796 Speaker 1: Adolf Jacobs, who was in the Coasters. He was a friend. 807 00:47:22,956 --> 00:47:27,836 Speaker 1: And so my uncle managed a place called the California Club, 808 00:47:27,916 --> 00:47:30,476 Speaker 1: and all of these acts. It was on the Chitland circuit. 809 00:47:30,796 --> 00:47:33,396 Speaker 1: So that's how we knew Little Richard and Adolf and 810 00:47:33,476 --> 00:47:37,196 Speaker 1: many other musicians. Even though my parents were not musicians 811 00:47:37,196 --> 00:47:41,676 Speaker 1: per se. My father was. He just loved music. And 812 00:47:41,916 --> 00:47:46,316 Speaker 1: so anyway, with Billy Preston and Henry, we did frat 813 00:47:46,356 --> 00:47:49,596 Speaker 1: parties every week and who Billy obviously played keyboards? You 814 00:47:49,636 --> 00:47:53,196 Speaker 1: played guitar? Did Billy sing? Oh yeah, Billy? Because at 815 00:47:53,196 --> 00:47:56,436 Speaker 1: one point we see we were different groups. We were 816 00:47:57,156 --> 00:48:00,276 Speaker 1: Billy Preston and the Soul Brothers, And that was when 817 00:48:00,316 --> 00:48:04,476 Speaker 1: we played Cinnamon Cinder and all of these frat parties 818 00:48:04,476 --> 00:48:07,236 Speaker 1: and stuff up and down the coast. Well, Billy had 819 00:48:07,316 --> 00:48:11,556 Speaker 1: a gospel thing happening and it started to take off, 820 00:48:11,796 --> 00:48:14,636 Speaker 1: so he was going to split and leave the group, 821 00:48:14,676 --> 00:48:17,996 Speaker 1: and Arthur had asked if he could join. Now, not 822 00:48:18,156 --> 00:48:20,516 Speaker 1: being a musician, the guys and oh man, why are 823 00:48:20,516 --> 00:48:23,116 Speaker 1: we gonna have him? He doesn't play anything, So we 824 00:48:23,356 --> 00:48:26,836 Speaker 1: put him on bongo drums. Arthur played bongos and conquo drums, 825 00:48:26,836 --> 00:48:30,476 Speaker 1: and when Billy left, Arthur kind of moved over to 826 00:48:30,916 --> 00:48:34,236 Speaker 1: trying to play Oregon and his parents bought him a 827 00:48:34,236 --> 00:48:39,196 Speaker 1: little whirlitzer or something and he played that so Arthur 828 00:48:39,316 --> 00:48:41,756 Speaker 1: now as part of the group, and Henry left because 829 00:48:41,796 --> 00:48:44,836 Speaker 1: he wanted to do blues. He was really into blues 830 00:48:44,876 --> 00:48:47,836 Speaker 1: as well. So now it was Arthur and me and 831 00:48:48,036 --> 00:48:51,236 Speaker 1: John Fleckenstein who later was with the Standals. He was 832 00:48:51,276 --> 00:48:54,836 Speaker 1: a friend of ours two and so he joined that. 833 00:48:56,156 --> 00:49:00,236 Speaker 1: He played the bass, and then Don Conka was our drummer, 834 00:49:00,756 --> 00:49:05,036 Speaker 1: and that was the We named ourselves the Grassroots, and 835 00:49:05,076 --> 00:49:07,836 Speaker 1: we were the first Grassroots and we were also the 836 00:49:07,876 --> 00:49:11,036 Speaker 1: American four and I think we called ourselves after we 837 00:49:11,156 --> 00:49:13,876 Speaker 1: heard the Birds. We were the weirds with the y. 838 00:49:14,156 --> 00:49:17,156 Speaker 1: Why so when you first started, tell me a little 839 00:49:17,156 --> 00:49:19,196 Speaker 1: bit about the music scene then, like, what would you 840 00:49:19,276 --> 00:49:21,916 Speaker 1: hear on the radio in that time when you were 841 00:49:21,956 --> 00:49:25,356 Speaker 1: just forming, Well, we were a cover band, as everyone was, 842 00:49:25,396 --> 00:49:29,516 Speaker 1: because this was sixty three sixty four. I'm in high 843 00:49:29,556 --> 00:49:31,596 Speaker 1: school and just getting out of high school. Then what 844 00:49:31,636 --> 00:49:33,876 Speaker 1: would be some of the songs you'd coll oh, gosh, 845 00:49:33,876 --> 00:49:39,876 Speaker 1: twist and shout or shout. We would do yeah, Lesley 846 00:49:39,956 --> 00:49:43,076 Speaker 1: Brothers things and so whatever was on the radio that time, 847 00:49:43,116 --> 00:49:48,796 Speaker 1: whatever rocking songs, we would do those. And little Richard 848 00:49:49,196 --> 00:49:53,436 Speaker 1: was going on tour, and there's guy Jimmy James who 849 00:49:53,956 --> 00:49:56,876 Speaker 1: was later, Jimmy Hendricks was going with him as his 850 00:49:56,996 --> 00:50:01,316 Speaker 1: basically his golfer. He was Richards driver and his chauffeur 851 00:50:01,476 --> 00:50:03,916 Speaker 1: and all of that. So Billy and I were part 852 00:50:03,956 --> 00:50:07,956 Speaker 1: of that initial tour and we went to England to 853 00:50:08,116 --> 00:50:12,756 Speaker 1: Liverpool and we at these guys the Quarryman, and later 854 00:50:12,956 --> 00:50:15,396 Speaker 1: we find out that these guys are the Beatles, but 855 00:50:15,516 --> 00:50:17,836 Speaker 1: you know, we didn't know that at the time. We 856 00:50:17,956 --> 00:50:20,876 Speaker 1: just you know, met these guys. And I had to 857 00:50:20,916 --> 00:50:24,476 Speaker 1: come back because a grandmother had died, and so I 858 00:50:24,516 --> 00:50:26,876 Speaker 1: had to leave. So I didn't tour that much with him. 859 00:50:26,916 --> 00:50:29,996 Speaker 1: I just met these guys and went back to Los Angeles. 860 00:50:30,236 --> 00:50:33,196 Speaker 1: The quirement opened for little Richard, didn't they? Is that? Yes, 861 00:50:33,276 --> 00:50:35,836 Speaker 1: I feel like I've seen that poster. Yes, they opened 862 00:50:35,876 --> 00:50:39,196 Speaker 1: for a little Richard And basically they followed him around 863 00:50:39,236 --> 00:50:42,716 Speaker 1: like little puppies. They loved him, and you know, and 864 00:50:42,836 --> 00:50:45,556 Speaker 1: so Richard was being Richard and so he would you know. 865 00:50:45,916 --> 00:50:49,076 Speaker 1: And Jimmy, as I said, was the Gopher. I had 866 00:50:49,156 --> 00:50:52,876 Speaker 1: met Jimmy earlier. Jimmy wasn't playing in the band. Oh yeah, 867 00:50:52,876 --> 00:50:55,116 Speaker 1: he was in the band playing as well. Yeah, he 868 00:50:55,156 --> 00:50:57,556 Speaker 1: played as well. Books when I first met him, he 869 00:50:58,156 --> 00:51:00,596 Speaker 1: I think he was with the Eisley Brothers in auditioning 870 00:51:00,596 --> 00:51:04,076 Speaker 1: for a job with the Old Jays, and we were 871 00:51:04,196 --> 00:51:06,356 Speaker 1: kind of Billy and I and a couple of other 872 00:51:06,356 --> 00:51:09,436 Speaker 1: people in Michael Boliver was a huge jazz guy. Now 873 00:51:09,516 --> 00:51:12,836 Speaker 1: we were part of the backing band, and so we 874 00:51:12,876 --> 00:51:15,516 Speaker 1: would the house banders, so to speaking, we would played 875 00:51:15,556 --> 00:51:19,316 Speaker 1: behind Zz Hill or bb King or whoever Sam Cook. 876 00:51:19,676 --> 00:51:21,836 Speaker 1: They were performing at there, and we were part of that. 877 00:51:22,596 --> 00:51:25,996 Speaker 1: So that's how I first met Jimmy James. So as 878 00:51:25,996 --> 00:51:27,876 Speaker 1: I said, when I had to leave and come back 879 00:51:27,876 --> 00:51:30,476 Speaker 1: to Los Angeles. So a couple of months later, Billy 880 00:51:30,516 --> 00:51:32,876 Speaker 1: and I are playing at a place called a Nightlife, 881 00:51:33,516 --> 00:51:36,396 Speaker 1: and of all things, there was a telegram sent there 882 00:51:36,396 --> 00:51:37,996 Speaker 1: because they knew we were playing there. So it's a 883 00:51:38,036 --> 00:51:43,076 Speaker 1: telegram and Brian Epsteins and I didn't know Brian, but 884 00:51:43,196 --> 00:51:45,636 Speaker 1: Billy did. He said to be on the lookout. There 885 00:51:45,716 --> 00:51:49,356 Speaker 1: was a package coming for us, and so I wonder, 886 00:51:49,396 --> 00:51:51,556 Speaker 1: what the hell is this. So a few days later, 887 00:51:51,716 --> 00:51:54,716 Speaker 1: sure enough, the package comes and Billy opens up and 888 00:51:54,756 --> 00:51:59,596 Speaker 1: there these passes backstage passes to the Hollywood Bowl. And 889 00:52:00,556 --> 00:52:03,996 Speaker 1: we hadn't figured it out yet that those guys that 890 00:52:04,076 --> 00:52:07,156 Speaker 1: we met in England. I allowed Richard around were the 891 00:52:07,156 --> 00:52:09,796 Speaker 1: Beatles and then it says the there'd be no way 892 00:52:09,796 --> 00:52:11,836 Speaker 1: to know, Yeah, there'd be no way to know. Yes, 893 00:52:12,396 --> 00:52:14,996 Speaker 1: So we get to the Hollywood Bowl and we see 894 00:52:15,116 --> 00:52:18,356 Speaker 1: these are those dudes and all of these chicks and 895 00:52:18,476 --> 00:52:24,076 Speaker 1: scream in. It was just amazing, and that's when we decided, hey, 896 00:52:24,196 --> 00:52:26,596 Speaker 1: we're going to do this or you know. And so 897 00:52:27,116 --> 00:52:30,796 Speaker 1: Arthur and I he came along too, and we decided 898 00:52:30,796 --> 00:52:34,796 Speaker 1: to go in that direction. So basically love started that 899 00:52:34,916 --> 00:52:37,916 Speaker 1: night we were at the Hollywood Bowl. Incredible, and that's 900 00:52:37,916 --> 00:52:39,836 Speaker 1: when you decided to write your own songs. Yeah. Up 901 00:52:39,876 --> 00:52:42,276 Speaker 1: till then it was only cover, Yeah, basically only cover. 902 00:52:42,716 --> 00:52:46,756 Speaker 1: And so we would write our own songs. Fleckenstein had 903 00:52:46,876 --> 00:52:50,196 Speaker 1: started writing songs and so he would add to it. 904 00:52:50,276 --> 00:52:54,716 Speaker 1: And so we were probably maybe ten percent of our 905 00:52:54,756 --> 00:52:57,396 Speaker 1: songs were original and the rest of them were covers. 906 00:52:57,836 --> 00:53:01,476 Speaker 1: And we carried on like that, and then we get 907 00:53:01,476 --> 00:53:04,596 Speaker 1: a job at a place called the Brave New World. Now, 908 00:53:04,596 --> 00:53:07,836 Speaker 1: the Brave New World was initially a gay bar, and 909 00:53:08,156 --> 00:53:11,596 Speaker 1: the owner of it wanted to switch over because I 910 00:53:11,676 --> 00:53:14,596 Speaker 1: think they had found a new hangout and so his 911 00:53:14,716 --> 00:53:18,436 Speaker 1: place wasn't in place anymore, and so he brought us 912 00:53:18,476 --> 00:53:21,516 Speaker 1: down to play. And we used to go over to 913 00:53:21,596 --> 00:53:24,556 Speaker 1: place called Ben Franks in Hollywood and where everybody hung out. 914 00:53:24,556 --> 00:53:27,956 Speaker 1: So we went on sunset, yeah, on sunset, and so 915 00:53:28,036 --> 00:53:31,076 Speaker 1: we went to Ben Franks and we saw David Crosby 916 00:53:31,196 --> 00:53:33,636 Speaker 1: and the Birds and these guys are holding court at 917 00:53:33,756 --> 00:53:36,796 Speaker 1: Ben Franks, sitting and all everybody's going back and forth 918 00:53:36,836 --> 00:53:40,636 Speaker 1: from their table. And we met. Yeah, this would have 919 00:53:40,636 --> 00:53:43,276 Speaker 1: been the sixty five or sixty six, I think sixty six, 920 00:53:43,756 --> 00:53:48,636 Speaker 1: And we met Brian and he was fascinated with us, 921 00:53:48,636 --> 00:53:52,516 Speaker 1: because it doesn't appear that way now, but at that point, 922 00:53:52,836 --> 00:53:56,356 Speaker 1: Hollywood was fairly segregated, so you didn't see black people 923 00:53:56,356 --> 00:53:59,876 Speaker 1: that often in Hollywood. So Brian sees us and we're 924 00:53:59,956 --> 00:54:02,996 Speaker 1: kind of wearying the you know, the hippie outfits, and 925 00:54:03,076 --> 00:54:05,556 Speaker 1: our hair had grown long and so and so he 926 00:54:05,756 --> 00:54:07,796 Speaker 1: just came over and set at our table and wanted 927 00:54:07,836 --> 00:54:10,076 Speaker 1: to chat with us because we looked interesting to him. 928 00:54:10,276 --> 00:54:12,156 Speaker 1: You know, he was a gadfly kind of guy. That 929 00:54:12,276 --> 00:54:14,716 Speaker 1: was this thing. He just knew everybody. Was he in 930 00:54:14,756 --> 00:54:17,476 Speaker 1: bands as well? He was a roadie for the Birds. 931 00:54:17,796 --> 00:54:20,716 Speaker 1: I didn't know that. Oh yes, yes, So he introduced 932 00:54:20,796 --> 00:54:24,236 Speaker 1: us to David Crosby, and we invited them to come 933 00:54:24,236 --> 00:54:26,556 Speaker 1: down to the Brave New World to hear us. And 934 00:54:26,716 --> 00:54:30,196 Speaker 1: David didn't come, but Brian did. And Brian asked if 935 00:54:30,236 --> 00:54:32,156 Speaker 1: he could sit in with us, and so of course 936 00:54:32,196 --> 00:54:35,036 Speaker 1: we let him sit in now at that time, which 937 00:54:35,076 --> 00:54:38,596 Speaker 1: maybe he didn't know. Bobby Bussle, who later of the 938 00:54:38,676 --> 00:54:42,436 Speaker 1: Manson thing, was part of that group. He wasn't getting paid. 939 00:54:42,436 --> 00:54:44,156 Speaker 1: He would just come in and sit in with us. 940 00:54:44,796 --> 00:54:48,396 Speaker 1: And when Brian came, we asked Brian to join the 941 00:54:48,436 --> 00:54:51,836 Speaker 1: group and told Bobby he wasn't needed any longer because 942 00:54:51,916 --> 00:54:54,076 Speaker 1: Brian just fit right in, you know, he had. So 943 00:54:54,196 --> 00:54:58,196 Speaker 1: Bobby was in the group prior to then Brian replaced 944 00:54:58,596 --> 00:55:02,996 Speaker 1: Ban replaced him, and so they had hard feelings, but 945 00:55:03,076 --> 00:55:08,076 Speaker 1: I didn't see why, because he just was right the right. Yeah. 946 00:55:08,116 --> 00:55:11,556 Speaker 1: And so when Brian and came, he brought with him 947 00:55:11,716 --> 00:55:13,796 Speaker 1: the people that came to see the birds. This was 948 00:55:13,956 --> 00:55:17,316 Speaker 1: Veto and Carl Franzoni and the guys that ended up 949 00:55:17,356 --> 00:55:21,036 Speaker 1: following the mothers followed us first, and so we go 950 00:55:21,196 --> 00:55:27,356 Speaker 1: from having a reasonably good crowd to having an overflowing 951 00:55:27,436 --> 00:55:30,236 Speaker 1: crowd just within a couple of days of Brian joining 952 00:55:30,236 --> 00:55:32,836 Speaker 1: the group because he brought all those people with him, 953 00:55:33,316 --> 00:55:37,356 Speaker 1: and that's when we decided that that was the direction 954 00:55:37,396 --> 00:55:39,116 Speaker 1: that we were going to go. You know, we were 955 00:55:39,116 --> 00:55:41,836 Speaker 1: going to be a kind of a folk rock Birdsy 956 00:55:41,956 --> 00:55:45,076 Speaker 1: kind of group, and so we started playing that type 957 00:55:45,116 --> 00:55:51,116 Speaker 1: of music and Brian, he basically influenced the transition for us, 958 00:55:51,196 --> 00:55:55,116 Speaker 1: and he was a major influence on how we behaved 959 00:55:55,116 --> 00:55:57,116 Speaker 1: in all of that, because you know, we looked up 960 00:55:57,156 --> 00:55:59,116 Speaker 1: to him and thought it was cool, and we came 961 00:55:59,156 --> 00:56:03,316 Speaker 1: from a different area, so we started dressing more and 962 00:56:03,396 --> 00:56:06,596 Speaker 1: more like they did, you know, in that area. And 963 00:56:07,476 --> 00:56:09,436 Speaker 1: as I said, the fire marshal was they were just 964 00:56:09,436 --> 00:56:12,196 Speaker 1: about every night because there were too many people in 965 00:56:12,236 --> 00:56:17,036 Speaker 1: the club and so we basically took off from that point. 966 00:56:17,076 --> 00:56:20,196 Speaker 1: From there, it just, uh, it just continued to go. 967 00:56:20,596 --> 00:56:23,956 Speaker 1: So at this point, the Birds were still still making 968 00:56:23,996 --> 00:56:27,116 Speaker 1: music and still popular. So just so we have the landscape, 969 00:56:27,116 --> 00:56:29,156 Speaker 1: what else was going on? Like if you were to 970 00:56:29,196 --> 00:56:32,396 Speaker 1: go out one who would you be excited at that 971 00:56:32,556 --> 00:56:34,636 Speaker 1: era of the band? Who would you have been excited 972 00:56:34,676 --> 00:56:36,436 Speaker 1: to go out and see who was playing around? Time 973 00:56:36,836 --> 00:56:40,916 Speaker 1: Iron Butterfly We would see them and during that period, 974 00:56:40,956 --> 00:56:43,756 Speaker 1: this is when everything kind of melted. We'd see the 975 00:56:43,796 --> 00:56:46,476 Speaker 1: Buffalo Springfield they were we all lived up in the 976 00:56:46,516 --> 00:56:51,356 Speaker 1: canyon basically, and the Turtles and Turtles Lay Yeah, Laurel Canyon. Yeah. 977 00:56:51,436 --> 00:56:54,836 Speaker 1: The Turtles were basically one of the first groups that 978 00:56:55,516 --> 00:56:58,596 Speaker 1: we would see and go out. And Turtles the whole 979 00:56:58,596 --> 00:57:00,916 Speaker 1: band or really just the two singers, now they were 980 00:57:00,916 --> 00:57:03,836 Speaker 1: a full band. They were a full Yeah. And the 981 00:57:04,116 --> 00:57:07,796 Speaker 1: people that later became Red Bone Patent Lally Vega, they 982 00:57:07,796 --> 00:57:12,956 Speaker 1: were friends and we'd see them. And the Whiskey Uh, 983 00:57:13,436 --> 00:57:17,116 Speaker 1: basically was kind of a square club. We'd call it 984 00:57:17,236 --> 00:57:20,996 Speaker 1: straight that's what the term was. And Johnny Rivers was 985 00:57:21,116 --> 00:57:25,156 Speaker 1: performing there and the lady that booked the plays, Ronnie Herron, 986 00:57:25,236 --> 00:57:27,476 Speaker 1: who was a friend and she used to come and 987 00:57:27,596 --> 00:57:30,236 Speaker 1: hear us at We moved from Brave New World to 988 00:57:30,316 --> 00:57:35,836 Speaker 1: beat Doledos and Betledos was in Cosmo's Alley, which was 989 00:57:35,956 --> 00:57:40,356 Speaker 1: near Wilcox between Hollywood and Sunset. It was in that area, 990 00:57:41,116 --> 00:57:44,956 Speaker 1: and so we had been offered an opportunity to play there, 991 00:57:45,396 --> 00:57:49,516 Speaker 1: and so we left the Brave New World and because 992 00:57:49,556 --> 00:57:51,476 Speaker 1: we would have been the first group, we were the 993 00:57:51,516 --> 00:57:53,916 Speaker 1: first group to play there, so they allowed us to 994 00:57:53,996 --> 00:57:57,316 Speaker 1: basically set up the sound system. You know that that 995 00:57:57,436 --> 00:58:02,436 Speaker 1: kind of was the way we wanted to sound. And anyway, 996 00:58:02,516 --> 00:58:06,516 Speaker 1: so Ronnie having met her at Beatoldo's, she was the 997 00:58:06,556 --> 00:58:10,156 Speaker 1: booker at the Whiskey and whisk. He had a horrible 998 00:58:10,196 --> 00:58:13,916 Speaker 1: reputation for not paying musicians then, so she asked us 999 00:58:13,956 --> 00:58:15,676 Speaker 1: to come and play, and we said, hell, no, we're 1000 00:58:15,676 --> 00:58:17,996 Speaker 1: not gonna pay because those guys are We all thought 1001 00:58:17,996 --> 00:58:20,676 Speaker 1: that they were mafia. That's what everybody thought, those guys 1002 00:58:20,676 --> 00:58:22,756 Speaker 1: are a mafia. Is that it might have been. I 1003 00:58:22,796 --> 00:58:27,596 Speaker 1: think they were okay. But and in those days, how 1004 00:58:27,596 --> 00:58:29,516 Speaker 1: long would you play for? Like what would what would 1005 00:58:29,516 --> 00:58:33,036 Speaker 1: a night's entertainment? We would play basically four or five 1006 00:58:34,316 --> 00:58:37,516 Speaker 1: forty five minutes sets per night. So we'd started Would 1007 00:58:37,516 --> 00:58:39,876 Speaker 1: they be the same songs over now over? No? No, no, no, 1008 00:58:39,916 --> 00:58:42,636 Speaker 1: we played different songs. So we had a repertoire league, 1009 00:58:42,676 --> 00:58:45,276 Speaker 1: so you could play for three or four hours, all 1010 00:58:45,316 --> 00:58:48,836 Speaker 1: different songs. Yeah. And again at this time it's mostly covers, yeah, 1011 00:58:48,996 --> 00:58:52,676 Speaker 1: just ninety ninety percent covers. And then we started playing, 1012 00:58:53,036 --> 00:58:56,396 Speaker 1: um some adding a few of our own stuff in. 1013 00:58:56,756 --> 00:58:59,356 Speaker 1: Would people dance, Oh yeah, they try, they would saying 1014 00:58:59,556 --> 00:59:02,036 Speaker 1: packed in there. Yeah, that's that's what it was dance, 1015 00:59:02,596 --> 00:59:07,236 Speaker 1: and as I mentioned earlier, was kind of blues jazz oriented. 1016 00:59:07,716 --> 00:59:12,196 Speaker 1: So right across from us with Shelley's Manhole, it was 1017 00:59:12,876 --> 00:59:16,556 Speaker 1: the back of Shelley's Manhole was the front of beat Aledos. 1018 00:59:16,876 --> 00:59:19,476 Speaker 1: And so these musicians, they see all of these people 1019 00:59:19,916 --> 00:59:22,236 Speaker 1: and they would come back. So I met Paul Horne 1020 00:59:22,556 --> 00:59:26,596 Speaker 1: and Miles Davis and Coltrane and stuff, and so on 1021 00:59:26,676 --> 00:59:28,876 Speaker 1: our breaks we would go and listen to them, and 1022 00:59:29,076 --> 00:59:32,716 Speaker 1: Charles Lloyd. I'd known Charles Lloyd also, he was one 1023 00:59:32,756 --> 00:59:36,396 Speaker 1: of the band directors in high school. So anyway, we 1024 00:59:36,556 --> 00:59:40,156 Speaker 1: noticed that these guys would take these long, extended solos, 1025 00:59:40,636 --> 00:59:43,756 Speaker 1: and so we did a song we titled john Ley 1026 00:59:43,836 --> 00:59:47,276 Speaker 1: Hooker that later became Revelation, and we would play this 1027 00:59:47,436 --> 00:59:50,396 Speaker 1: one song sometimes for a whole hour. That's just the 1028 00:59:50,396 --> 00:59:55,196 Speaker 1: whole set, and you know, trying to emulate the jazz musicians. Now, 1029 00:59:55,196 --> 00:59:57,516 Speaker 1: so we would have been probably one of the first 1030 00:59:57,596 --> 01:00:01,276 Speaker 1: jam bands, and people started coming just to hear this 1031 01:00:01,716 --> 01:00:06,036 Speaker 1: us play one song the whole set. And as I said, 1032 01:00:06,036 --> 01:00:08,236 Speaker 1: the jazz guys would come in and every now and 1033 01:00:08,276 --> 01:00:11,356 Speaker 1: then Charles would sit in with us or gobores the 1034 01:00:11,436 --> 01:00:14,116 Speaker 1: bowl would you know, sit in on one of the songs. 1035 01:00:14,116 --> 01:00:17,876 Speaker 1: So we started getting a reputation among musicians as well 1036 01:00:17,916 --> 01:00:21,396 Speaker 1: as the hippie crowd. Was it unusual also that it 1037 01:00:21,476 --> 01:00:24,916 Speaker 1: was an integrated band. Yes, it was because at that 1038 01:00:25,036 --> 01:00:29,076 Speaker 1: point I think we were I believe the Rising Suns 1039 01:00:29,156 --> 01:00:32,196 Speaker 1: may have been mixed race. I think of Taj Mahal 1040 01:00:32,356 --> 01:00:34,716 Speaker 1: was part of that, and then there was Ray Couder 1041 01:00:34,796 --> 01:00:37,916 Speaker 1: and then but but I think that was probably the 1042 01:00:37,996 --> 01:00:41,796 Speaker 1: only other mixed race group. And so that again was 1043 01:00:42,116 --> 01:00:45,716 Speaker 1: a calling card. And being that we were a mixed 1044 01:00:45,796 --> 01:00:48,356 Speaker 1: race and we're dealing with people that you know, consider 1045 01:00:48,436 --> 01:00:53,236 Speaker 1: themselves enlightened and you know, and it's it's hard to 1046 01:00:53,516 --> 01:00:57,236 Speaker 1: describe this, but they wanted to come. You know, they 1047 01:00:57,236 --> 01:01:01,076 Speaker 1: couldn't go over to the other side of town without 1048 01:01:01,076 --> 01:01:04,836 Speaker 1: necessarily getting into trouble or having some problems. So meeting 1049 01:01:04,876 --> 01:01:10,116 Speaker 1: and black musicians and was something that was a huge 1050 01:01:10,156 --> 01:01:13,756 Speaker 1: calling card for us, as having people meet us and 1051 01:01:13,876 --> 01:01:19,356 Speaker 1: the fact that we basically spoke the same language. We 1052 01:01:19,356 --> 01:01:22,396 Speaker 1: were relatively articulate, and they could speak with us as 1053 01:01:22,556 --> 01:01:26,676 Speaker 1: you know, we weren't talking streets lang that nobody could understand. 1054 01:01:26,756 --> 01:01:29,916 Speaker 1: And really the common language was the music, right, that 1055 01:01:29,996 --> 01:01:35,116 Speaker 1: was the real correct and being that we were safe, dangerous, 1056 01:01:35,796 --> 01:01:38,956 Speaker 1: you know, these young girls from the valley would come 1057 01:01:38,996 --> 01:01:41,476 Speaker 1: to see us, and you know, and and so that's 1058 01:01:41,476 --> 01:01:45,236 Speaker 1: how we got this huge crowd. At one point, they 1059 01:01:45,236 --> 01:01:48,076 Speaker 1: would block off the street. Cosmos Alleys was basically a 1060 01:01:48,116 --> 01:01:51,196 Speaker 1: private street and they'd block it off at both ends, 1061 01:01:51,396 --> 01:01:53,916 Speaker 1: and then they would charge at mission for people to 1062 01:01:53,956 --> 01:01:56,036 Speaker 1: come in, even though they could never get into season, 1063 01:01:56,476 --> 01:02:00,276 Speaker 1: almost like a block party. Yeah. Basically, yes, you didn't 1064 01:02:00,276 --> 01:02:02,196 Speaker 1: see the band, but they put these huge Voice of 1065 01:02:02,196 --> 01:02:05,396 Speaker 1: the Theater speakers out there, and uh yeah, so it 1066 01:02:05,396 --> 01:02:08,036 Speaker 1: sounds like a sounds like a great event. It was 1067 01:02:08,076 --> 01:02:11,076 Speaker 1: fun to come to. This was really fun, and as 1068 01:02:11,116 --> 01:02:13,916 Speaker 1: I said, we were starting to get a reputation amongst 1069 01:02:13,996 --> 01:02:16,396 Speaker 1: musicians because all the jazz guys came to see us 1070 01:02:16,436 --> 01:02:19,436 Speaker 1: and wanted to do something with us. So we had 1071 01:02:19,476 --> 01:02:22,276 Speaker 1: basically taken off and then we moved to the Whiskey. 1072 01:02:22,476 --> 01:02:24,556 Speaker 1: You know, we still stayed at the beat Alides, but 1073 01:02:24,596 --> 01:02:27,636 Speaker 1: we played at the Whiskey and then later the trip 1074 01:02:28,196 --> 01:02:30,836 Speaker 1: and we played there the first night. I think we 1075 01:02:30,916 --> 01:02:35,556 Speaker 1: played there with the Velvet Underground, and I think we 1076 01:02:35,636 --> 01:02:38,276 Speaker 1: played once with the Birds. I believe. I'm not sure 1077 01:02:38,276 --> 01:02:41,156 Speaker 1: if they played there with us, And we played many 1078 01:02:41,196 --> 01:02:44,956 Speaker 1: gigs with the Doors, of course. So that's basically when 1079 01:02:44,996 --> 01:02:48,276 Speaker 1: that whole music scene in Hollywood started. Because then, as 1080 01:02:48,276 --> 01:02:52,956 Speaker 1: I mentioned before, the Iron Butterfly and the Electric Flag. 1081 01:02:53,556 --> 01:02:55,956 Speaker 1: So there are many many groups and we all lived 1082 01:02:55,996 --> 01:02:59,116 Speaker 1: basically in Frank Zapple have done the same street, and 1083 01:02:59,156 --> 01:03:02,436 Speaker 1: that that's something that probably will never happen in life again. 1084 01:03:02,996 --> 01:03:05,756 Speaker 1: And all of these houses in Laurel Canyon, you could 1085 01:03:05,796 --> 01:03:08,516 Speaker 1: rent a house there for sixty dollars a month. Would 1086 01:03:08,516 --> 01:03:10,796 Speaker 1: you say that it was a sense of camaraderie with 1087 01:03:10,916 --> 01:03:15,716 Speaker 1: the artists, Yes, less about competition and more about friendship, right, 1088 01:03:15,796 --> 01:03:18,116 Speaker 1: And there was kind of a friendly rivalry and that 1089 01:03:18,316 --> 01:03:21,956 Speaker 1: everybody wanted to do his best that they could, especially 1090 01:03:22,036 --> 01:03:25,196 Speaker 1: when we started making records, everybody wanted to kind of 1091 01:03:25,436 --> 01:03:27,516 Speaker 1: do a little bit better than the other guys. So 1092 01:03:28,836 --> 01:03:32,076 Speaker 1: and then I'll mention how we got the Doors, Yes, Okay, 1093 01:03:32,956 --> 01:03:36,636 Speaker 1: after Love had become quite a popular in Hollywood. Of course, 1094 01:03:36,756 --> 01:03:39,436 Speaker 1: Jim Morrison became our friend and he would come every night. 1095 01:03:39,876 --> 01:03:43,636 Speaker 1: Is still pre recording. No, this is after we've done 1096 01:03:43,636 --> 01:03:46,756 Speaker 1: the first Love album, and by then we'd really taken 1097 01:03:46,796 --> 01:03:50,396 Speaker 1: off now and so we're playing much much larger venues 1098 01:03:50,436 --> 01:03:55,236 Speaker 1: around Hollywood. And Jim, as I said, became our friend. 1099 01:03:55,276 --> 01:03:58,716 Speaker 1: He was mostly my friend and Brian Arthur didn't particularly 1100 01:03:58,716 --> 01:04:03,356 Speaker 1: care for him, but anyway, he was an interesting person. 1101 01:04:03,476 --> 01:04:07,196 Speaker 1: He was also a poet and that was his big 1102 01:04:07,236 --> 01:04:10,116 Speaker 1: desire in life is to have his group become as 1103 01:04:10,156 --> 01:04:14,556 Speaker 1: big as Love was. And he had mentioned to me 1104 01:04:14,636 --> 01:04:17,196 Speaker 1: several times that he wanted us to introduce him to 1105 01:04:17,596 --> 01:04:20,716 Speaker 1: our record companies to get him looked up. And of 1106 01:04:20,756 --> 01:04:23,916 Speaker 1: course we didn't want to vouch for Jim because Jim 1107 01:04:24,036 --> 01:04:26,436 Speaker 1: was a handful of Jim was. He was full of 1108 01:04:26,556 --> 01:04:30,196 Speaker 1: drink all the times he was. That was his thing 1109 01:04:30,316 --> 01:04:35,556 Speaker 1: is drinking. So we got an offer from MCA, which 1110 01:04:35,676 --> 01:04:39,716 Speaker 1: was a rather large record company back then, and since 1111 01:04:39,716 --> 01:04:42,436 Speaker 1: we weren't happy with Electro because of the way the 1112 01:04:42,556 --> 01:04:46,316 Speaker 1: first album turned out, and they weren't able to promote 1113 01:04:46,356 --> 01:04:48,316 Speaker 1: us because they just didn't have the money at the time, 1114 01:04:48,356 --> 01:04:52,196 Speaker 1: and they were also mainly folk labor how tote this, 1115 01:04:52,396 --> 01:04:57,076 Speaker 1: that's the thing. They didn't have the experience. So when 1116 01:04:57,196 --> 01:05:00,396 Speaker 1: MCA came us and they offered us like fifty thousand 1117 01:05:00,396 --> 01:05:04,316 Speaker 1: dollars signing bonus, which would be about five hundred grand now, 1118 01:05:04,636 --> 01:05:07,436 Speaker 1: and so that was a humongous sum of money back then. 1119 01:05:08,036 --> 01:05:11,636 Speaker 1: And so we had spoken to Jack Holsman about leaving. 1120 01:05:11,676 --> 01:05:13,596 Speaker 1: We didn't tell him it was MCA. We just told 1121 01:05:13,676 --> 01:05:16,316 Speaker 1: him we weren't happy when to leave, and of course 1122 01:05:16,316 --> 01:05:19,996 Speaker 1: he was having none of that. So we came up 1123 01:05:19,996 --> 01:05:22,316 Speaker 1: with a brilliant idea. He said, if we hooked him 1124 01:05:22,356 --> 01:05:25,396 Speaker 1: up with the Doors and he has a rock group 1125 01:05:25,516 --> 01:05:28,196 Speaker 1: and he has he's still in the game, he'll let 1126 01:05:28,316 --> 01:05:31,356 Speaker 1: us go. And MCA offered to buy us out of 1127 01:05:31,396 --> 01:05:36,276 Speaker 1: the contract, and no such luck. So he came down 1128 01:05:36,316 --> 01:05:39,756 Speaker 1: the first night and heard the Doors and he hated them, 1129 01:05:40,116 --> 01:05:43,116 Speaker 1: and we managed to talk him into coming back to 1130 01:05:43,116 --> 01:05:45,556 Speaker 1: see him the second time, and he hated them even more, 1131 01:05:45,596 --> 01:05:47,316 Speaker 1: and he was kind of getting pissed off at us 1132 01:05:47,356 --> 01:05:51,196 Speaker 1: for wasting his time. So a month or two goes 1133 01:05:51,236 --> 01:05:54,316 Speaker 1: by and Jack us here for something else, and we 1134 01:05:54,476 --> 01:05:56,756 Speaker 1: speak with him and we said, place come back and 1135 01:05:56,796 --> 01:05:59,516 Speaker 1: see these guys one more time. We're still working him, 1136 01:05:59,556 --> 01:06:01,556 Speaker 1: trying to get him in the cut us loose, and 1137 01:06:01,676 --> 01:06:04,636 Speaker 1: this time we brought Paul Rothschild with him, and Paul 1138 01:06:04,676 --> 01:06:08,316 Speaker 1: had just gotten out of prison. Paul had gone to 1139 01:06:08,396 --> 01:06:12,556 Speaker 1: prison for grass and so we thought that was so 1140 01:06:12,636 --> 01:06:16,676 Speaker 1: cool that, you know, street cred. Yeah, he had street krebs. 1141 01:06:17,236 --> 01:06:21,876 Speaker 1: So he came down again and he with Paul, and 1142 01:06:22,196 --> 01:06:25,196 Speaker 1: this night Dar in Butterfly was on the bill with 1143 01:06:25,796 --> 01:06:28,556 Speaker 1: the Doors at the Whiskey, and he came back that 1144 01:06:28,556 --> 01:06:31,876 Speaker 1: that third time, and Jim was on his best behavior. 1145 01:06:31,876 --> 01:06:36,116 Speaker 1: It wasn't drunk, and he did the songs, you know, properly. 1146 01:06:36,556 --> 01:06:41,436 Speaker 1: And Jim was a very charismatic, good looking guy, and 1147 01:06:41,476 --> 01:06:44,836 Speaker 1: he could see the attention that the young ladies were 1148 01:06:44,876 --> 01:06:48,916 Speaker 1: paying to him, and he saw what we saw, and 1149 01:06:48,956 --> 01:06:52,476 Speaker 1: so he decided to speak with Ronnie or she had 1150 01:06:52,476 --> 01:06:55,316 Speaker 1: become our manager by then, and she hooked him up 1151 01:06:55,356 --> 01:06:58,716 Speaker 1: with the Doors and made the introductions and they signed 1152 01:06:58,756 --> 01:07:02,396 Speaker 1: within a day or so of meeting them, and we thought, cool, 1153 01:07:02,516 --> 01:07:04,516 Speaker 1: now he's gonna cut us loose and let us go, 1154 01:07:04,716 --> 01:07:09,316 Speaker 1: which no such thing. You know. Basically, what we did 1155 01:07:09,476 --> 01:07:12,116 Speaker 1: was we shot ourselves in the foot because the money 1156 01:07:12,156 --> 01:07:15,316 Speaker 1: that would have been spent promoting us now was spent 1157 01:07:15,476 --> 01:07:20,436 Speaker 1: promoting the Doors. And we were so proud that we 1158 01:07:20,476 --> 01:07:25,836 Speaker 1: had this huge billboard outside of Chateau Merma, and within 1159 01:07:26,076 --> 01:07:28,876 Speaker 1: a few days they had the doors was right cross 1160 01:07:28,956 --> 01:07:32,636 Speaker 1: from us, so and now we've got a rivalry amongst friends, 1161 01:07:32,836 --> 01:07:36,076 Speaker 1: and they were doing really, really well. They were selling 1162 01:07:36,116 --> 01:07:40,276 Speaker 1: records and so more of the record company's attention was 1163 01:07:40,316 --> 01:07:43,356 Speaker 1: focused on them. Now of course it would be these 1164 01:07:43,396 --> 01:07:46,276 Speaker 1: guys are you know, they've got a number one song 1165 01:07:46,356 --> 01:07:51,876 Speaker 1: with like My Fire, and they are much more malleable 1166 01:07:52,356 --> 01:07:56,316 Speaker 1: than we were. You know, as far as listening to 1167 01:07:56,356 --> 01:08:00,356 Speaker 1: the advice of Jack Holtzman, because wasn't there also an 1168 01:08:00,356 --> 01:08:03,076 Speaker 1: issue with touring. I don't know the details, but I've 1169 01:08:03,116 --> 01:08:06,396 Speaker 1: always heard that Arthur didn't want to leave Los Angeles. 1170 01:08:06,396 --> 01:08:09,956 Speaker 1: We'll see that that was kind of a misnomer. Back then, 1171 01:08:10,076 --> 01:08:13,116 Speaker 1: being a mixed race group, there were most more places 1172 01:08:13,156 --> 01:08:15,396 Speaker 1: in this country that we couldn't play them we could. 1173 01:08:15,676 --> 01:08:18,876 Speaker 1: We could not play the South at all. We did 1174 01:08:18,996 --> 01:08:22,476 Speaker 1: play a Texas once. Other than that, we couldn't play 1175 01:08:22,516 --> 01:08:25,156 Speaker 1: the South and much of the Midwest and Middle America. 1176 01:08:25,316 --> 01:08:28,876 Speaker 1: We were off limits there as well. Fascinating so even 1177 01:08:28,916 --> 01:08:32,556 Speaker 1: though you know, music was our livelihood, that's how we survived. 1178 01:08:32,596 --> 01:08:35,196 Speaker 1: So of course we wanted to tour and play, but 1179 01:08:35,316 --> 01:08:38,996 Speaker 1: we played where we could, and Los Angeles we were 1180 01:08:38,996 --> 01:08:43,516 Speaker 1: getting bookings and bookings, and it turned out because the 1181 01:08:43,596 --> 01:08:47,796 Speaker 1: record company didn't back us the way and promote us 1182 01:08:47,996 --> 01:08:50,596 Speaker 1: by sponsoring tours the way they did for the doors, 1183 01:08:51,556 --> 01:08:54,596 Speaker 1: it was rather than like we could play in New 1184 01:08:54,676 --> 01:08:58,036 Speaker 1: York and Chicago and Detroit and places like that, which 1185 01:08:58,076 --> 01:09:02,156 Speaker 1: we did later. But initially we found it better to 1186 01:09:02,236 --> 01:09:05,356 Speaker 1: play here because we made more money staying here and 1187 01:09:05,476 --> 01:09:08,316 Speaker 1: not having to pay the travel expensive. And you were 1188 01:09:08,396 --> 01:09:11,516 Speaker 1: in great right and we were in demand here. So 1189 01:09:11,996 --> 01:09:15,516 Speaker 1: after Forever Changes was finished, they did sponsor to our 1190 01:09:15,876 --> 01:09:19,156 Speaker 1: Electra did and as I said, we went to Detroit, Chicago, 1191 01:09:19,396 --> 01:09:23,156 Speaker 1: and Cleveland and New York and just about anywhere on 1192 01:09:23,276 --> 01:09:26,076 Speaker 1: the East Coast we could play. We played Boston in 1193 01:09:26,396 --> 01:09:29,556 Speaker 1: so many different places. And how were those experiences? Those 1194 01:09:29,556 --> 01:09:32,236 Speaker 1: were great because it was basically the same. It was 1195 01:09:32,276 --> 01:09:34,756 Speaker 1: like going from here to San Francisco was the same 1196 01:09:34,916 --> 01:09:37,556 Speaker 1: same type of people. They looked the same, dress, the 1197 01:09:37,596 --> 01:09:40,516 Speaker 1: same talk, the same So it was basically the same 1198 01:09:40,556 --> 01:09:43,836 Speaker 1: type of people. There's a question I don't know the answer. 1199 01:09:44,236 --> 01:09:47,476 Speaker 1: Did Jimmy Hendrix look like Jimmy Hendrix before Arthur. No, 1200 01:09:47,716 --> 01:09:51,716 Speaker 1: he looked like he would wear these cardigan jackets and 1201 01:09:51,996 --> 01:09:56,156 Speaker 1: real skinny ties and the processed hair, the pampadour, that's 1202 01:09:56,156 --> 01:09:58,636 Speaker 1: how Jimmy looked. That's the Jimmy James that I knew. 1203 01:09:58,836 --> 01:10:02,516 Speaker 1: He looked nothing like that. So he basically coopted some 1204 01:10:02,636 --> 01:10:06,236 Speaker 1: of Arthur's style. Yes, you know, and because he was 1205 01:10:06,276 --> 01:10:12,356 Speaker 1: just so impressed. Because love. It's hard to over or 1206 01:10:12,396 --> 01:10:17,116 Speaker 1: exaggerate how huge that group was just in Los Angeles, Hollywood, 1207 01:10:17,396 --> 01:10:20,676 Speaker 1: So everybody was looking up to us at that point. 1208 01:10:21,156 --> 01:10:24,716 Speaker 1: And we didn't even know when we first heard of 1209 01:10:24,836 --> 01:10:28,036 Speaker 1: Jimmy Hendricks, we didn't know that he was Jimmy James. 1210 01:10:28,476 --> 01:10:31,436 Speaker 1: And we were coming down from pre internet. Everything was 1211 01:10:31,596 --> 01:10:34,436 Speaker 1: information was hard to get, that's correct. We came from 1212 01:10:34,436 --> 01:10:37,796 Speaker 1: San Francisco and a friend of ours name's Johnny, also said, 1213 01:10:37,836 --> 01:10:40,516 Speaker 1: then there's just dude, Jimmy Hendris. He's playing at the Whiskey. 1214 01:10:40,556 --> 01:10:42,716 Speaker 1: You guys should go and see him. So we came 1215 01:10:42,756 --> 01:10:46,476 Speaker 1: from San Francisco and we went to the Whiskey expecting 1216 01:10:46,516 --> 01:10:49,156 Speaker 1: to see somebody that we didn't didn't we see and 1217 01:10:49,316 --> 01:10:53,796 Speaker 1: Arthur says, man, that's that dude from the California Club, 1218 01:10:54,276 --> 01:10:57,556 Speaker 1: and he was entirely different. He's dressed in fullar galia 1219 01:10:57,756 --> 01:11:02,156 Speaker 1: and now he's doing all of the old Chitland circuit tricks, 1220 01:11:02,196 --> 01:11:05,396 Speaker 1: you know, playing behind your back. You know, people think 1221 01:11:05,436 --> 01:11:09,716 Speaker 1: that that Jimmy invented that, but that was just an 1222 01:11:09,716 --> 01:11:14,276 Speaker 1: old staple of Johnny Guitar Watson and people like Classy 1223 01:11:14,316 --> 01:11:16,596 Speaker 1: Blue and those guys did that all the time. And 1224 01:11:16,716 --> 01:11:19,396 Speaker 1: Albert Collins they always played behind their back or head 1225 01:11:19,516 --> 01:11:22,996 Speaker 1: or you know. So that was new to the people 1226 01:11:23,036 --> 01:11:25,156 Speaker 1: in Hollywood, but it was old hat as far as 1227 01:11:25,196 --> 01:11:28,716 Speaker 1: we were concerned. He was playing stuff and he just 1228 01:11:29,316 --> 01:11:32,356 Speaker 1: you know, he goes from being a journeyman guitar player, 1229 01:11:32,516 --> 01:11:36,036 Speaker 1: just the Soso guy playing guitar, to being this monster. 1230 01:11:36,396 --> 01:11:39,916 Speaker 1: And I always say, man that you must have taken 1231 01:11:39,956 --> 01:11:43,156 Speaker 1: a trip to the crossroads man something, you know. So 1232 01:11:43,196 --> 01:11:45,996 Speaker 1: we would laugh about that often. But and I still 1233 01:11:46,116 --> 01:11:48,716 Speaker 1: wonder how in the space of a little over a 1234 01:11:48,796 --> 01:11:51,876 Speaker 1: year he goes from being just a soco guitar player 1235 01:11:52,116 --> 01:11:55,116 Speaker 1: to being God. Basically, what do you think and you think, 1236 01:11:55,276 --> 01:11:59,196 Speaker 1: I mean, as a guitar player, was your perception while 1237 01:11:59,236 --> 01:12:03,316 Speaker 1: he went from soso to unbelievable? Yes, not just the perception, 1238 01:12:03,396 --> 01:12:06,316 Speaker 1: but in reality and what you saw as a musician. Yeah, 1239 01:12:06,356 --> 01:12:10,436 Speaker 1: in reality, the way he played music, the stuff that 1240 01:12:10,556 --> 01:12:15,236 Speaker 1: he did you know, was different than anybody else at 1241 01:12:15,276 --> 01:12:18,916 Speaker 1: that time. I'm not talking about the flashiness, but talking 1242 01:12:18,916 --> 01:12:21,756 Speaker 1: about the way he played was different, and he was 1243 01:12:21,876 --> 01:12:24,716 Speaker 1: using effects, you know, because they had given me one 1244 01:12:24,716 --> 01:12:27,876 Speaker 1: of those things before they did Jimmy. We were signed 1245 01:12:27,916 --> 01:12:30,876 Speaker 1: with Vox and Thomas Oregon and so Kenny and I 1246 01:12:30,916 --> 01:12:33,476 Speaker 1: went down and they gave me this thing. It was 1247 01:12:33,516 --> 01:12:36,076 Speaker 1: called a Wawa tape and this pedal. I still have 1248 01:12:36,196 --> 01:12:39,836 Speaker 1: the pedal as a matter of that. And it was 1249 01:12:39,876 --> 01:12:42,716 Speaker 1: supposed to emulate the sound of a trombone, you know, 1250 01:12:42,876 --> 01:12:45,596 Speaker 1: wa wa with a mew nun. I never knew that's 1251 01:12:45,596 --> 01:12:47,916 Speaker 1: what it was interesting, and I thought, a hell, if 1252 01:12:47,956 --> 01:12:50,396 Speaker 1: I wanted to do that, I would play the trombone. 1253 01:12:50,436 --> 01:12:52,476 Speaker 1: I don't you know, I'm trying, not trying to emulate 1254 01:12:52,476 --> 01:12:55,276 Speaker 1: a trumpet or trombone and a guitar player. So I 1255 01:12:55,356 --> 01:12:58,796 Speaker 1: put the damn thing in the closet and never never 1256 01:12:59,956 --> 01:13:03,716 Speaker 1: bothered with it. And Jimmy gets the same thing, and 1257 01:13:04,156 --> 01:13:07,116 Speaker 1: you know, he turns it into you know, I never 1258 01:13:07,196 --> 01:13:10,396 Speaker 1: thought about it before, the idea that that part of 1259 01:13:10,516 --> 01:13:18,276 Speaker 1: Jimmy's breakthrough involved using new technology. Yes, that's exactly fascinating 1260 01:13:18,716 --> 01:13:21,636 Speaker 1: with a fascinating point. Without that, there would have been 1261 01:13:21,676 --> 01:13:25,756 Speaker 1: no Jimmy Hendricks. Jimmy was the effects. That's what made 1262 01:13:25,836 --> 01:13:29,036 Speaker 1: him sound different. That's what made everybody look because he 1263 01:13:29,076 --> 01:13:32,276 Speaker 1: didn't sound like every other guitar player. He sounded different 1264 01:13:32,796 --> 01:13:35,276 Speaker 1: and it was because of those effects of that. He 1265 01:13:35,276 --> 01:13:38,676 Speaker 1: embraced the technology. The technology, he knew how to use it, 1266 01:13:38,836 --> 01:13:41,636 Speaker 1: and he made it his own and he was so 1267 01:13:41,716 --> 01:13:45,356 Speaker 1: identified with that that that's who he was. But he also, 1268 01:13:46,076 --> 01:13:49,316 Speaker 1: you know, had the foresight and the musicianship to use 1269 01:13:49,356 --> 01:13:52,956 Speaker 1: it properly because I saw the same damn thing, and 1270 01:13:53,676 --> 01:13:55,636 Speaker 1: you know I didn't do it, so he did it. 1271 01:13:55,716 --> 01:13:57,916 Speaker 1: So I have to give him his props for what 1272 01:13:58,036 --> 01:14:01,956 Speaker 1: he did. So we saw him and Arthur and him 1273 01:14:01,996 --> 01:14:04,796 Speaker 1: started hanging together because you know, they were closer than 1274 01:14:04,916 --> 01:14:07,796 Speaker 1: because I think Jimmy, well, there was a song called 1275 01:14:07,796 --> 01:14:11,716 Speaker 1: My Diary that Arthur had written that Rosalie Brooks recorded, 1276 01:14:12,156 --> 01:14:14,636 Speaker 1: and I think that was one of Jimmy's first recording 1277 01:14:14,676 --> 01:14:18,316 Speaker 1: gigs as playing on that. So they were closer than 1278 01:14:18,356 --> 01:14:20,796 Speaker 1: the two of us were, but you know we were friends. 1279 01:14:21,076 --> 01:14:24,956 Speaker 1: Jimmy look up to Arthur, Yes he did, he did. Yeah, 1280 01:14:24,996 --> 01:14:27,396 Speaker 1: And at that time it was as the doors the 1281 01:14:27,476 --> 01:14:30,116 Speaker 1: Doors had the number one record in the country, but 1282 01:14:30,196 --> 01:14:33,916 Speaker 1: they were deferential to us and that they played second billing, 1283 01:14:34,396 --> 01:14:37,676 Speaker 1: you know, and they have a number one record. Normally, 1284 01:14:37,716 --> 01:14:40,316 Speaker 1: when you got a number one record, your top billing. 1285 01:14:40,396 --> 01:14:42,516 Speaker 1: But you would see some of the old posters who 1286 01:14:42,516 --> 01:14:45,276 Speaker 1: would be love and huge letters and then the Doors 1287 01:14:45,836 --> 01:14:48,596 Speaker 1: and their number one hit light My Fire underneath it. 1288 01:14:48,716 --> 01:14:52,476 Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, And so Jimmy had basically the same 1289 01:14:52,556 --> 01:14:56,676 Speaker 1: kind of deferential attitude toward the crew because we were 1290 01:14:56,796 --> 01:14:59,156 Speaker 1: able to, like, you know, we could play the Hollywood 1291 01:14:59,156 --> 01:15:01,356 Speaker 1: Poll or the Latium or any place and out draw 1292 01:15:01,476 --> 01:15:04,836 Speaker 1: just about anybody, and people that had you know, records 1293 01:15:04,836 --> 01:15:07,316 Speaker 1: out so couldn't. Yeah, they couldn't do it even if 1294 01:15:07,316 --> 01:15:09,236 Speaker 1: they had hits. They county because you do it, you 1295 01:15:09,236 --> 01:15:11,876 Speaker 1: had really built up a grassroots following from the beginning. 1296 01:15:12,516 --> 01:15:14,996 Speaker 1: Wasn't based on a song. It wasn't based on the song. 1297 01:15:14,996 --> 01:15:17,196 Speaker 1: It was based on the persona of the group, the 1298 01:15:17,276 --> 01:15:20,476 Speaker 1: fact that, you know, the lifestyle and the fact that 1299 01:15:21,076 --> 01:15:23,596 Speaker 1: we lived in the castle so we you know, and 1300 01:15:23,756 --> 01:15:27,076 Speaker 1: we drove around jags and sports cards and stuff around, 1301 01:15:27,076 --> 01:15:29,356 Speaker 1: so you know that it just kind of set us 1302 01:15:29,356 --> 01:15:33,596 Speaker 1: apart from the other musicians, and so they were all 1303 01:15:33,596 --> 01:15:38,076 Speaker 1: trying to emulate that. Yeah, beautiful. Thank you so much 1304 01:15:38,076 --> 01:15:43,676 Speaker 1: for coming and doing this my pleasure. Thanks to Johnny 1305 01:15:43,676 --> 01:15:45,956 Speaker 1: Echoles for taking us back in time to talk about 1306 01:15:45,996 --> 01:15:50,396 Speaker 1: the creation of Forever Changes. You can hear that full album, 1307 01:15:50,396 --> 01:15:52,556 Speaker 1: plus some of our other favorite love songs and I 1308 01:15:52,636 --> 01:15:56,516 Speaker 1: playlist at broken Record podcast dot com. Be sure to 1309 01:15:56,556 --> 01:15:59,276 Speaker 1: subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash 1310 01:15:59,316 --> 01:16:02,836 Speaker 1: broken Record Podcast, where can find all of our new episodes. 1311 01:16:03,436 --> 01:16:06,356 Speaker 1: You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken 1312 01:16:06,396 --> 01:16:09,916 Speaker 1: Record is produced Helpful Lea Rose, Jason Gambrel, beent Holiday, 1313 01:16:10,156 --> 01:16:14,036 Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, and Jennifer Sanchez, with engineering help from Nick Chafe. 1314 01:16:14,436 --> 01:16:18,276 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Minia Lobet. Broken Record is a 1315 01:16:18,316 --> 01:16:21,196 Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries. If you like this show and 1316 01:16:21,316 --> 01:16:25,476 Speaker 1: others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus 1317 01:16:25,516 --> 01:16:29,196 Speaker 1: is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content an uninterrupted 1318 01:16:29,196 --> 01:16:31,636 Speaker 1: ad free listening for four ninety nine on a month. 1319 01:16:32,236 --> 01:16:35,956 Speaker 1: Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions, and if 1320 01:16:35,956 --> 01:16:38,196 Speaker 1: you'd like the show, please remember to share, rate, and 1321 01:16:38,276 --> 01:16:40,916 Speaker 1: review us on your podcast app. Our theme musics by 1322 01:16:40,996 --> 01:16:42,796 Speaker 1: Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richman,