WEBVTT - Ep. 281: Sacred Seeds 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:13.320 This is Me Eat podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:18.360 folk bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:24.480 can't predict anything. Presented by First Light, Go Farther, Stay Longer. 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:36.480 Everybody joined today by very special guest Taylor Keen. Oh Maha, 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:41.960 Cherokee correct correct Part den is open, which we'll get into. 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:46.720 I am I have part early homing it and then 0:00:47.000 --> 0:00:49.479 uh and then as all of us are. But you 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:53.520 ever hear den is open? It's different, right, yeah, because 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:56.600 you know you talk about folks like me wind up, 0:00:56.640 --> 0:00:59.120 Folks like me wind up throwing a little bit of Neanderthal. 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:01.680 I've got Western Europeans. Oh you got a little of 0:01:01.680 --> 0:01:04.880 that too. Okay, we'll get to that. I've been a 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:06.760 lot of people don't know what I'm not really clear 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:10.520 what adnis open is other than I know it's another homedin. 0:01:11.240 --> 0:01:13.800 Like I did a fair better research last night because 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:16.959 I really didn't know what it was. And I'm not 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:18.960 saying I'm the expert now, but I had the same 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:22.160 question just like if you were a dear today, if 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:25.200 you were a dear today winding around, like let's say 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:27.120 your white tailed deer and you wander around and like, oh, 0:01:27.120 --> 0:01:28.720 there's another kind of deer. It's a meal deer. He 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:33.160 there's another kind of deer. It's a blacktail deer. Um. Once, 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:34.520 by the time you could have been a homed in 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:38.400 walking around, you have been Oh hey, it's another kind 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:43.119 of homedy. We'll get to that. Um, Clay, you were 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:46.360 on Rogan's podcast. Was that fun? Yeah? Well that's for sure, 0:01:47.440 --> 0:01:49.760 really unique experience. I listen to a little bit of it. 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:53.480 I didn't quick because I got bored, mind you just 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:56.120 I just haven't gotten through it yet. Oh you didn't quit. 0:01:56.160 --> 0:01:58.200 I thought you said you did quit because you got bored. 0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:00.520 I was like, well, okay, if if that was true, 0:02:00.960 --> 0:02:02.760 that was true, and it's not, I wouldn't have told 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:05.000 you that. Yeah, let me give me a break. I 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:08.560 have said something like, um, I just said something like 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:12.840 good job, Clay. Yeah, I said that was a great job, Clay. Yeah. No, 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:14.799 I I don't know. I thought it was good. We 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:16.760 enjoy hanging out with him. Oh yeah, and and and 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:18.480 I didn't get to spend a lot of time with 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:22.960 Joe aside from just in the podcast. But unique experience 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:26.520 going down there. I mean, you know, just being on 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:30.880 his podcast was probably the it was. It was less 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:34.240 It was less intimidating than I thought it would be. 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:39.200 And I won't lie. I was slightly intimidated, but and 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:41.040 and and just in a normal kind of way. But 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:44.119 once once you got in there, Joe's a great guy 0:02:44.160 --> 0:02:47.560 to talk to, a great interviewer. He's very he's very 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:52.160 generous and gracious. I did not know what he knew 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:53.640 about me, so I didn't know what we were going 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:57.480 to be talking about. You know. The conversation flowed along 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:02.080 a pretty standard like Clay knew him talking point, you know, 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:04.239 other than if there were a few there were a 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:08.480 few curveballs which were fun, but no, Yeah, but Joe's 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:12.799 like he's very I feel like he's as an interviewer, 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:16.399 he's very sensitive to things. It's almost like he picks 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:18.560 up things floating through the air. Like I feel like 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:21.360 I could show him your thumb print and he'd be 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:23.480 he'd tell you a bunch of like he tell you 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:25.000 a bunch about the persons, you know what I'm saying. 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:26.919 Like I feel like you could listen to episodes of 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:29.800 bevery Grease podcast, listen to like two episodes of Grease 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:34.560 podcast and kind of really like understand what to talk 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:39.200 about what to ask. It's very sensitive that way. Sure, 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:41.480 I can't tell what's there's a good there's good news 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:43.280 and bad news. I want to talk about drought and heat, 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:45.000 but I also want to talk about the t RCP 0:03:45.200 --> 0:03:50.320 land Access Appreciation thing. Here's the deal. Uh, this is 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:53.480 gonna sound Montana centric, but understanding that it's it's not 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:56.240 Montana centric. In the state of Montana, there's a program 0:03:56.360 --> 0:03:58.760 called the Block Management Access Program. And how it works 0:03:58.800 --> 0:04:06.240 is this. They take revenue drawn from people buying hunting licenses, okay, 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:13.200 and they take this revenue and they enlist private landowners, ranchers, farmers, 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:17.360 other private landowners. They enlist private landowners into the black 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:22.760 Manager program. Once private land is in the Black Management program, 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:26.080 you hunt it for free. So nonresident resident I mean 0:04:26.120 --> 0:04:28.479 everything we're talking about, everything from elk turkeys live on 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:32.760 these places and you come and hunt Black management. And 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:34.000 I think a lot of like a lot of things 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:36.679 that are cool, such as national forests and other stuff. 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:38.560 A lot of people kind of think that it must 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:40.760 have like one day fallen from outer space and there 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:43.159 it is, and they don't realize that's sort of like 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:47.160 effort that goes into it. The landowners do get paid 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:49.359 to enrolling black manage, but it trusts me, it is 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:54.640 not enough to offset the inconvenience and in hassling risk. 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:58.320 It's just like like, no one is going into black management, uh, 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:00.359 licking their lips about how rich they're gonna yet it 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:03.160 just doesn't work that way. It's an act of generosity 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:07.680 to put your land in black management. Um. We got 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:11.600 this idea from my brother who was involved in another 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:14.880 carent incarnation. Where do you say carnation that's like a 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:22.080 kind of condensed milk? What do you say like because 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:25.920 it's not a reincarnation, which we got to talk about 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:33.560 because that thing about weasels being doomed so well that 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:36.240 some other days stay tuned for that. That's feel I'm 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:38.440 gonna Phil get my interest meter out. When I talked 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:44.480 about Phil hates that interest me. Um, what was I saying? Oh, 0:05:44.520 --> 0:05:48.280 so we're doing a thing called the t RCP Montana 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:52.960 Farm and Ranch Hunter Access Appreciation Sweepsteaks finally crafted title 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:55.800 Mind you Again, Montana. I think I came up with 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:57.480 that was it was like, this is why happens on 0:05:57.600 --> 0:05:59.480 three people try to come up with the title together. 0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:03.520 It's called the Montana Farm and Ranch Hunter Access Appreciation 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:09.760 sweep steaks. We have gone what what what? What are 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:12.520 you smirking about over there? Phil, I'm just a mouthful 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:15.400 of a name. Yeah, it's a great name. I like 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:16.840 it because it lays it all out. You don't need 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:21.280 a subtitle with a name like that, right. Uh, it's 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:25.160 a sweepstakes donations. So we got all kinds of crazy things. 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:31.279 You could win tons of things, and you buy tickets, 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:32.680 and then what we're gonna do is we're gonna take 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:36.080 all the money that we get from this, every last penny. 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:39.120 We're doing this in conjunction with t RCP. Theodore rolls 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:44.360 about conservation partnership in conjunctu with t RCP. You buy 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:47.680 these tickets and you win a bunch of stuff, and 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:51.440 then we're gonna take all the money and buy things 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:55.560 to thank people who enroll their land in black management. 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:57.920 We're not talking about sending them like coffee mugs and whatnot, 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:03.080 like buying them farm and ranch equipment, gate mechanisms for 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:08.440 you know, like uh, automatic gates, calf shelters, stuff people need, 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:11.360 help them get stuff they actually need. That's going on 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:18.200 right now up to when Kran entered by August one 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:22.800 at midnight Eastern standard. Five dollars gets you one entry. 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:25.960 Between ten and twenty four entries you can get for 0:07:26.000 --> 0:07:28.400 four bucks. If you buy more than twenty five entries, 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:31.800 you get them for three bucks apiece. You can only 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:37.240 do five hundred entries per person. Do this list like 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:41.880 when I try to chain saws, meat grinders, meet craft 0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:47.560 knives full first like kit byan o'harness kit, Javelin, pro hunt, bipod, 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:50.120 when I try to load all the things, like smoke 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:53.320 comes out of my computer. That's how many things are available. 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:57.120 We gotta tell him the link. That's a good idea. 0:07:59.080 --> 0:08:06.120 Tell him, uh, it's support dot t r CP dot org, 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:10.800 forward slash b M A yeah. So if you hunt 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:12.640 Montana and you use BLM, and if you live here, 0:08:12.640 --> 0:08:15.440 you're guaran almost guarant damn t you do, or you 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:19.680 visit and use block management, jump in and start one 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:23.040 of these in your own state to reward and thank 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:25.920 people who open their lands up. Can now on to 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:30.080 the bad stuff. Holy cow, the heat wave, an extreme drought. 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:37.480 It's so bad they're air dropping air dropping water to 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:42.880 keep big horn sheep alive in Nevada Nevada Department of 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:46.320 Wildlife replenishing desert big horn sheep's only source of water 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:52.600 for miles. Without intervention, animal populations will decline. Ecosystem viability 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:56.640 is threatened. Nevada is experiencing intense drought for the second 0:08:56.679 --> 0:08:59.760 year in a row. Last year, I didn't know this. 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:04.160 Las Vegas went two forty days without measurable rainfall. This 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:08.320 year of the state is in what's called exceptional drought, 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:12.480 which is the highest level of drought according to National 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:19.319 Weather Service. Elk to Lee elk in California. There's a 0:09:19.360 --> 0:09:23.400 population of to the elk in California. They're dying from 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:27.960 lack of water, dying of dehydration. They had a historic 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:32.080 water source they would use at this point Rees National Seashore. 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:34.480 How how does that pronounce raise rees? What is that? 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:41.199 There's been an ongoing issue where the elk are using 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:44.480 water and feed that was meant for cattle. So they 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:46.240 put a fence up, but only some of these elk 0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:52.000 can get at this fence. About a third about a 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:55.439 third of the population died of dehydration because they don't 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:58.959 have any water source on their on their ground, they 0:09:59.000 --> 0:10:03.960 can't get around. Defense not to defense but around to 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:06.960 get skate of the you know, food and water. This 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:10.480 is a tricky one. I feel like, get into it. Well, 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:14.439 one you have like a cattle lease, which is you know, 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:16.840 the reason the fence went up because the elk are 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:20.000 competing with these cattle, and so you got to start 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:23.680 to think about whether, you know, what's more important, you know, 0:10:24.559 --> 0:10:28.360 these animals that we all own or someone's private cattle. 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:30.600 You know, and again we don't know the nuances. They 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:34.959 have a grazing lease. They have a grazing lease. But 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:38.160 most places, I mean here, where you have grazing leases 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:43.880 on public land, you don't fence out wildlife. Yeah. Um, 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:46.680 so that's interesting. So it was for sure public land. 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:52.480 It's National Park Service land. Mm hmm. They're being sued mhm. 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:57.240 So the historic the historic water on their side of 0:10:57.240 --> 0:11:01.319 the fence usually would have been enough, but it wasn't. This. Yeah, yeah, 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:04.240 one of the you know, I gather it's like this 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:09.120 like highly fenced area, and I also gather that it's 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:14.480 like a pretty managed herd, but they're yeah, they're not 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:17.839 able to get to water. Listen, man, I've tried this 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:21.079 a lot. I've tried sitting around and telling myself about all, 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:24.640 you know, the insane heat everywhere. I've tried sitting around 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:27.400 being like there's no such thing as climate change, those 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:30.320 such thing as climate change. It's just hot. But son 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:33.880 of a bitch man. After a while, you can hide, 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:39.280 you can hide. It's it's it's like getting hot. It's 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:46.120 gonna be bad for wildlife. It's just yeah, you can 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:48.720 say that. I don't think you can sit around saying 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:52.440 it's not. You can say like, I don't care. You 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:55.839 can argue about what's causing it. You can argue about 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:59.560 the cause, but it's not if you like to hunt 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:10.120 and fit. Change is coming. Yeah, yeah, dude. Another interesting 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:13.560 thing this is this is a crazy one. Kevin Murphy 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:16.320 sent this to me this morning. So San Jose, San Jose, 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:19.840 California passed a gun like a really weird gun control 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:24.200 measure that it's very puzzling to me. Basically that if 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:28.120 you own guns, you pay a tax, and the tax 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:31.319 is supposed to offset what it costs the city to 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:36.560 address gun related phone call gun related crime. So you 0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:38.960 can imagine someone who's got like a pistol they bought 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:41.160 on the corner, tucked down to the back shed and 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:45.840 they're planning on, you know, doing armed robbery, and they're like, dah, 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:49.600 I forgot to send him my tax money. Let me 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:55.959 come on, we're supposed to get liability insurance. I think 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:58.920 if you want to find a parallel San Jose, California 0:12:59.840 --> 0:13:01.680 at that struggle for a parallel thought of this would 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:05.760 be like if you you could one could make the argument, 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:11.559 they could say the First Amendment rights cost taxpayers money. Okay, 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:14.040 let's say there's a there's there's there's a protest, there's 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:22.640 a protest of Um, there's a massive protest to protest. Uh, well, 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:25.280 give me something people. Let's say there's a massive protest 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:29.280 to protest the outcome of the presidential election. And there's 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:34.200 a massive counter protest to protest people protesting the outcome 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:36.000 of the presidential election. So you have all these people 0:13:36.040 --> 0:13:43.120 with mixed ideologies exercising First Amendment rights. Okay, there's a 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:46.319 police president, there's a police presence. They there's cost of 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:49.520 business because business is closed. There's cost the police because 0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:53.319 police come out they monitor it. There's there's community meetings 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:56.400 that are set aside to plan like safe protest spaces, 0:13:56.640 --> 0:14:00.480 to cordin people off. It's very expensive. So someone could say, 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:04.600 if you want to exercise First Amendment rights, you need 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:08.000 to pay at tax because it costs us money to 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:10.200 have First Amendment rights. And someone would say, like, but 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:15.120 the peaceful people aren't committing crimes and burning down buildings, 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:18.160 why should they be paid tax to pay attacks, to 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:26.120 which I would say, wonderful point. Yeah, it's absurd, It 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:30.840 is absurd. Yeah, it seems like just a punishment, a 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:36.520 punishments legal gun owners. It's just grasp and it's so well. 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:38.920 Kevin Murphy made the point that it's it's like a 0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:44.920 path towards only that the rich and privilege have weapons. Mhmm, 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:49.520 those that can afford shot and the Appalachians. Wait till 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:54.400 the next podcast, Claire, can you give us the update 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:57.440 on Brunal the Bear? So, first tell us about you 0:14:57.520 --> 0:14:59.640 told us before about Brunal the Bear. So, Bruno the 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:03.000 Bear what I did a report on him on this podcast. 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:06.680 He came from Wisconsin and traveled all the way down 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:11.400 to Arkansas, and he gained national attention going through crop fields. 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:13.360 Did you see that, Taylor? Do you remember that from 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:17.680 He gained national attention like this black bear walking through 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:22.800 corn fields and stuff, and and he was extremely uh, 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:27.240 un unalarmed by people, so people would be masses of 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:29.360 people would be following him and he just kind of 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:32.640 mind his own business and he never got into any 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:38.200 significant nuisance trouble. And like a thousand mile journey or 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:40.560 however long it was, tell him the theory, tell him 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:43.520 the theory about how he did. So there was there's 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:46.600 lots of theories about why this bear made this journey, 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:48.520 and you know, the biologists chimed in or like you know, 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:51.000 bears only travel that far if they're looking for new 0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:55.240 home ranges, new mates, or food. There was theories that 0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:59.680 so he was heading from the north to Arkansas. We 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:02.640 have a bear population in Arkansas, and he walked across 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:06.040 all this country that did not have resident bear populations. 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:08.560 So there was a theory that he climbed on a 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:13.120 boat on the Mississippi River, a grain barge and was 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:17.600 my garbage can last night. I'll believe that. Yeah, there 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:20.720 was a theory that he climbed into a grain barge 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:22.960 and traveled up north and got off the barge, which 0:16:23.000 --> 0:16:25.320 is bizarre, you know, probably and then he was just 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:30.520 coming home. He was coming home the corridor. Yeah, homing 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:33.680 instinct is really strong, like when they trapped bears like that. 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:37.600 Bears very rarely don't come back to where they came from. 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:42.080 That's like a good plot for a kid's movie. Yeah yeah, 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:45.080 but we'll make it a pet dog that gets lost 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:50.280 on vacation. It's already been done. So this bear, he 0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:54.680 wintered in northern Arkansas, as I understand it, This is 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:56.800 where you left off last time, right, Yeah, he was 0:16:56.840 --> 0:16:59.280 just in northern Arkas and people were My mom was 0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:02.680 texting me and Clay, please don't kill Bruno because I'm 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:07.080 in Arkansas. Un because people people were very worried about 0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:10.680 Bruno showing up in Arkansas because there's the he could 0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:13.879 have gone into a hunt. Yeah, that's right. And and 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:16.960 so now this I don't have all the details on, 0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:21.000 but he was basically trapped as I understand it, in Arkansas. 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:23.280 Potentially in Missouri. He may have gone back over the 0:17:23.280 --> 0:17:25.760 line of the Missouri He was trapped by gaming fish 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:30.600 and relocated to northern Louisiana. Because basically, the bears out 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:33.960 of Arkansas are spreading in like all directions, southern Missouri, 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:39.240 northern Louisiana, East Texas, south eastern Oklahoma, and for whatever reason, 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:42.760 they chose to release him in Louisiana. Sad story. Boys, 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:46.200 he got hit by a car in Louisiana on Tuesday 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:51.480 and they had to euthanize him. Yep, so Bruno's dead. 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:55.399 I'm sorry the things he's seen, man, Yeah, no doubt 0:17:55.800 --> 0:17:58.800 there was. There was the theory that he was that 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:02.280 he was a tame bear because of how unusual he 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:05.080 was with his uh, how he interact with people. I 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:08.040 mean tam like, not like habituated, but tame, like a 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:10.600 circus bear. Yeah, like somewhat like it was a bear 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:14.280 that had been like rest or something. But I don't 0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:18.000 buy that either, just zero fear of humans. Tame bear 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:21.320 probably wouldn't have survived. No, and a tame bear would 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:23.680 have gone and tried to get in somebody's refrigerator in 0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:25.920 their house. What was so amazing He traveled that far 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:28.480 and never got in trouble, and so they were trying 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:30.600 to do him a favor by taking him to Louisiana. 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:36.320 So long live beast. They were trying to It's not 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:39.479 common for bears to go north and south in their migrations, right, 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:42.000 just not then far, just not that far. I mean 0:18:42.000 --> 0:18:45.320 they might travel. You know, there's documentation in Missouri and 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:48.119 Arkansas Bears traveling like a hundred and fifty miles, but 0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:52.919 a thousand miles is very It's just not heard of. 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:57.159 Maybe he wasn't an involved Bear. He was kind of 0:18:57.160 --> 0:19:01.440 an emissary or an ambassador for for the Bears. Perhaps, Yeah, 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:04.840 he's a scout. He might have been a scout. Yeah, 0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:07.960 he was something like, if I don't come back, don't 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:12.439 go south. Uh yeah, I need tell about that mountainin 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:17.600 you're telling me about m oh that last week I 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:21.320 was with our buddy Bart George and we're filming his 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:25.960 mountainlin hazing studying that he's doing over in North Spokane, Washington. 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:28.560 Would you ought to explain real quick? Oh? Yeah, I 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:30.600 remember we talked to me. Yeah, you know what. After 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:32.879 being there and hang out with his whole crew for 0:19:32.920 --> 0:19:34.800 a week a couple of times, now I feel like 0:19:34.840 --> 0:19:36.880 we should go and do a podcast with the whole 0:19:36.920 --> 0:19:39.159 crew and ship chat with him because he's got Bruce 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:42.960 Duncan as you know, is you know, a real wonder 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:45.920 of this world. I found out the other day Bart 0:19:45.960 --> 0:19:52.000 thinks that he is the man living that has treated 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:55.919 the most cats in this country right now, at roughly 0:19:56.760 --> 0:20:00.720 cats because all that research and government and just yeah, 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:02.440 and all the outfitting has done and the fact he's 0:20:02.480 --> 0:20:06.280 been doing it for over fifty years. Um, yeah, pretty interest. 0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:08.800 Two names I'm not gonna say their names, we'll talk 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:12.280 like but he shown does he win the cat Lady Trophy? 0:20:13.800 --> 0:20:16.920 I don't know about that. Uh. And then Jeff Blood 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:19.679 who's the wildlife specialist for the county's up there. Very 0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:22.280 interesting guy, been trapping and doing stuff his whole life. 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:27.199 But does Bart still with Yeah, the Callisbelt Tribe and 0:20:27.240 --> 0:20:30.159 so the Callisbelt Tribe is doing they're the ones that 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:33.679 are funding the study, doing the study. But he's working 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:38.080 um inca hoots with Washington Department of Game and Fish. 0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:41.440 And then like I said, the Stevens and uh, I 0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:43.480 can't remember the name of the other county now, but 0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:46.439 the Sheriff's office. Um, a lot of people are kind 0:20:46.440 --> 0:20:47.879 of chipping in to help on the study. But what 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:49.800 he's trying to do is because they're having just they've 0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:53.440 got a real uptick in depredations and human mountain lion 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:57.280 conflict and interactions, and so he came up with a 0:20:57.320 --> 0:20:59.879 study to see if hazing might help just kind of 0:21:00.040 --> 0:21:03.239 heap the mountain lions like away from humans a little bit. 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:06.320 And so how he's doing it is they catch a lion, 0:21:06.560 --> 0:21:09.119 they put a collar on it, they come back a 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:11.320 week later, they know exactly where the line is. They 0:21:11.400 --> 0:21:15.920 walk towards the lion with a speaker on Bart's chest 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:18.560 on just hanging off his backpack. That's playing the meat 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:20.800 eater pots. So he still plays the podcast to the lions. 0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:23.600 Yeah that's great. Yeah, no, I got it. While the 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:25.520 problem is the lions are gonna hang out because they're 0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:30.280 so interested. You gotta give those lions interest film on 0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:33.080 top on the collar. Put an interest meter dial on 0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:39.600 on that. While while Sam was explaining the lobster uh 0:21:39.800 --> 0:21:43.560 debate that was recently on, we got to within I 0:21:43.560 --> 0:21:49.520 think eleven yards of the mountain. Yeah, I mean at 0:21:49.520 --> 0:21:51.960 eleven yards because you see it yet, No, because she's 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:53.960 like in like you know, three or four furs that 0:21:54.000 --> 0:21:56.399 were all bushy, you know around the bottom. They were 0:21:56.440 --> 0:21:59.919 not that close. Yeah, because we're looking at the GPS 0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:05.200 like thirty three faiter, what's not any of the three 0:22:05.280 --> 0:22:07.359 lines that we did that too, that we walked up 0:22:07.359 --> 0:22:09.760 to the other one was like fifty and then one 0:22:09.880 --> 0:22:18.240 ran at like seventy yards and not kidding me, it's strippy. 0:22:19.160 --> 0:22:22.960 This one the closest one eleven yards and it left. Yeah, 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:26.320 and then that one literally has been living in this 0:22:26.400 --> 0:22:29.399 area that if you walk down the hill five minutes, 0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:33.479 you're on like a it's a rural highway. But right 0:22:33.520 --> 0:22:35.800 on the other side that road is basically like this 0:22:35.840 --> 0:22:39.680 little community on like it's like a lake community with 0:22:39.720 --> 0:22:42.560 all these little houses and condos and stuff. And there's 0:22:42.600 --> 0:22:44.760 a trail system where this cat's been hanging out. So 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:47.239 that cat sits there in the trees and listens to 0:22:47.840 --> 0:22:51.120 dogs and humans and stuff going by her and cars 0:22:51.480 --> 0:22:54.120 all the time and like totally just you know, that's 0:22:54.119 --> 0:22:59.560 her home. Yeah, it was wild. So anyways, so what 0:22:59.640 --> 0:23:02.240 he's on to see if hazing works. So when he 0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:05.960 comes back, now he's got this cat on a GPS collar, 0:23:06.080 --> 0:23:08.720 so he walks towards it. Playing the podcast at eighty decibles, 0:23:08.720 --> 0:23:11.160 which is quite a loud mind you. I mean it's 0:23:11.200 --> 0:23:15.000 like my voice projected like if I'm excited, it's probably 0:23:15.000 --> 0:23:17.679 equal to roughly eighty decibles. And doesn't it feel like 0:23:17.720 --> 0:23:20.800 distinctly sort of post modern that that they will in 0:23:20.840 --> 0:23:25.919 the future be listening to you talking about them listening 0:23:25.920 --> 0:23:28.560 to this show. It's like staring into a mirror and 0:23:28.600 --> 0:23:35.680 there's a mirror behind you. It's getting deep deep um, God, 0:23:35.760 --> 0:23:40.200 he's totally lost. I'm just trying to stay on track 0:23:40.280 --> 0:23:44.240 with how so that everybody understand how this problem question 0:23:44.280 --> 0:23:47.240 that won't throw us off this particular cat had he 0:23:47.320 --> 0:23:51.880 been in trouble before, she had not been. So we're 0:23:51.880 --> 0:23:54.560 hazing a cat that's not been in trouble though. Okay, no, 0:23:54.640 --> 0:23:57.320 because you in in these parts are those parts where 0:23:57.320 --> 0:24:00.600 I was, if they've been in actual trouble, like, if 0:24:00.600 --> 0:24:04.560 there's been a depredation, they're dead. Kind of let me 0:24:04.600 --> 0:24:06.760 interject with the thing that Bruce told me, the Bruce 0:24:06.800 --> 0:24:11.639 you're talking about after that, when when you know, Washington 0:24:11.800 --> 0:24:17.080 had two summers ago had the first fatality from a 0:24:17.119 --> 0:24:20.560 mountalin first human fatality from mounta lion in state history. 0:24:20.680 --> 0:24:23.800 And then then shortly after, like a month or two later, 0:24:24.080 --> 0:24:26.920 Oregon had its first human fatality from a mountain lion 0:24:27.080 --> 0:24:29.800 in years. I mean, it just doesn't happen, right, but 0:24:29.800 --> 0:24:32.520 then it happens twice in one summer and to states 0:24:32.520 --> 0:24:33.800 you know, and then you're like, wow, what's going on? 0:24:34.320 --> 0:24:36.720 So you want to draw conclusions from this, but maybe 0:24:36.720 --> 0:24:38.480 there's nothing to be drawn. And when I put it 0:24:38.520 --> 0:24:39.919 to Bruce, I was like, what do you think about that? 0:24:40.840 --> 0:24:43.920 You know, on one hand, he's like, it's freak right. 0:24:43.960 --> 0:24:45.640 We'll go another hundred years and no one will get 0:24:46.000 --> 0:24:49.560 killed by mountainlin. But if there is something there, what 0:24:49.680 --> 0:24:51.560 he he put out is this like in his whole 0:24:51.600 --> 0:24:56.240 career of doing work on lion control for the state. 0:24:57.160 --> 0:24:59.920 In the early days of his career, if someone saw 0:25:00.000 --> 0:25:03.840 a line, you came out and killed it. People didn't 0:25:03.840 --> 0:25:06.480 want them around, and he'd be like, you see one 0:25:06.480 --> 0:25:08.919 on your porch, it's a deadline. It doesn't matter if 0:25:08.920 --> 0:25:11.840 it did anything wrong. Kill the dog, it's just dead. 0:25:12.359 --> 0:25:16.399 And he said, as tolerance has increased, and now you 0:25:16.440 --> 0:25:18.600 know you don't just like kill every single line that 0:25:19.000 --> 0:25:22.680 crosses the street in front of a car. Um he says, 0:25:22.760 --> 0:25:26.320 it's probably gonna be that there's just gonna be more 0:25:26.400 --> 0:25:29.639 interactions because our tolerance is shifted, and we don't just 0:25:29.840 --> 0:25:33.440 dust off every single thing we can dust off because 0:25:33.440 --> 0:25:35.480 someone's scared. And there's a lot more lines, there's a 0:25:35.520 --> 0:25:38.280 lot more people, there's a lot more people going into 0:25:38.640 --> 0:25:46.720 wild places, So yeahs wild because of you know, us 0:25:47.280 --> 0:25:50.199 moving into them and living in them. I'll tell you 0:25:50.240 --> 0:25:52.960 a podcast guest and I can't say his name, but 0:25:53.160 --> 0:25:57.000 I know the guy that tracked down that mountline and 0:25:57.080 --> 0:26:00.879 kills him and being serious, I know the trackdown what 0:26:01.720 --> 0:26:04.600 the lion. And I don't know if it was the 0:26:04.600 --> 0:26:08.119 fatality in Washington or Oregon. If it's if it's Washington 0:26:08.280 --> 0:26:11.840 we're talking about, we know the same person. Well, I 0:26:11.880 --> 0:26:14.480 think I think this was the Oregan lion. And I 0:26:14.560 --> 0:26:18.000 know the guy that went to that scene, track that 0:26:18.119 --> 0:26:21.000 line down, I mean went to the you know, the 0:26:21.400 --> 0:26:24.119 site where the person was killed. He said it was 0:26:24.160 --> 0:26:27.359 it was a wild story. Yeah, and he it was 0:26:27.400 --> 0:26:30.400 a was that the two mountain bikers? No, that was Washington. 0:26:30.680 --> 0:26:38.360 This was a lady, this was this was a woman. Yes, yes, anyway, 0:26:38.960 --> 0:26:41.040 we'll tell you. Yeah, you want to do one upsmanship 0:26:41.160 --> 0:26:45.960 on podcast? No? No, no, no bringing up, keep going. Yeah. 0:26:45.960 --> 0:26:47.280 We gotta hurry out because I think we have a 0:26:47.280 --> 0:26:50.080 great one sitting right here across us. More ut of 0:26:50.080 --> 0:26:54.879 time here. Um. So they walked towards him playing this podcast, 0:26:55.440 --> 0:27:00.359 and Bart's watching the GPS. And once the cat leaves 0:27:00.359 --> 0:27:04.240 its bed or wherever it's sitting or sleeping at the moment, 0:27:04.680 --> 0:27:08.360 he marks that distance from him to the cat. Then 0:27:08.400 --> 0:27:10.360 he watches the cat and the GPS and see how 0:27:10.440 --> 0:27:14.399 far it goes, how far it flees, which he's taking 0:27:14.440 --> 0:27:19.240 other um like environmental data points as well, and basically 0:27:19.240 --> 0:27:21.800 is trying to figure out how much energy is the 0:27:21.840 --> 0:27:26.440 cat willing to expend once it's been bumped, and then consequently, 0:27:26.480 --> 0:27:29.080 after it's been hazed multiple times, is it willing to 0:27:29.119 --> 0:27:32.920 expend more energy because it doesn't want to go through 0:27:32.920 --> 0:27:36.200 the hazing again. So once he picks up those two 0:27:36.240 --> 0:27:40.760 data points, uh, they cut the dogs loose, which usually 0:27:40.760 --> 0:27:43.399 come from however far behind, however far he had to 0:27:43.440 --> 0:27:46.320 walk to get to the lion. They track him to 0:27:46.520 --> 0:27:48.719 the where the fresh mountain lion track is. Then they 0:27:48.800 --> 0:27:51.880 run the lion. It's usually over pretty quickly. They jump 0:27:51.920 --> 0:27:55.120 the line into a tree. The hazing. The first hazing 0:27:55.200 --> 0:27:59.520 actually is via paintball, so they'll sit there and as 0:27:59.520 --> 0:28:01.640 many times the cattle take it. The dogs are gone 0:28:01.680 --> 0:28:03.880 at this point and as soon as the cat climbs 0:28:03.880 --> 0:28:06.280 and jumps out of the tree and runs, that's it. 0:28:06.400 --> 0:28:09.760 They that's the hazing. Then they repeat that with minus 0:28:09.880 --> 0:28:14.320 the paintballs three more times and see you know, they're 0:28:14.520 --> 0:28:16.760 again collecting those data points of how close did they 0:28:16.800 --> 0:28:18.800 get and how far did the cat run before it 0:28:18.920 --> 0:28:22.040 stopped and chilled out, you know, after it heard the 0:28:22.080 --> 0:28:26.160 meter podcast at eighty decibels, in order to determine if 0:28:26.200 --> 0:28:30.760 there is a problem line. Could is it possible to 0:28:30.840 --> 0:28:33.920 get it to change its behavior without euthanizing. Yeah, and again, 0:28:33.960 --> 0:28:37.800 it's probably never gonna happen with problem lins. It'll probably 0:28:37.840 --> 0:28:40.400 just happen with lions that like, like you were saying, 0:28:40.480 --> 0:28:43.520 across the street in a place where there's a bunch 0:28:43.520 --> 0:28:45.760 of little kids living around, or there's a lion that's 0:28:45.760 --> 0:28:48.000 been seen a couple of times near a boy scout 0:28:48.040 --> 0:28:50.360 camp or whatever. But like I said, as soon as 0:28:50.360 --> 0:28:53.360 they call them to help them not become problem lines. Yeah, 0:28:53.440 --> 0:28:56.680 right now, they're north of Spokane. There's a very very 0:28:56.760 --> 0:29:02.240 low tolerance for cat and public perception is down, like 0:29:02.480 --> 0:29:07.360 is negative right now with cats, unfortunately, and they aren't happy. 0:29:07.600 --> 0:29:09.120 A lot of them aren't happy with the way that 0:29:09.480 --> 0:29:12.680 the Washington Department Efficient Game has been handling it. And 0:29:12.720 --> 0:29:17.080 so there, you know, that's why Jeff Flood like it 0:29:17.120 --> 0:29:24.560 gets Yeah, it's it's socially, you know, complicated, but so yeah, 0:29:24.680 --> 0:29:28.560 probably it'll just happen with cats that are like in 0:29:28.800 --> 0:29:32.000 areas amongst people, they're seen and hopefully they can hate 0:29:32.040 --> 0:29:35.360 them a little bit and keep them alive. Talking about 0:29:35.680 --> 0:29:39.200 the super line, all right, So one, it has been 0:29:39.240 --> 0:29:44.520 tried in the past of relocating lions that were problem lines. 0:29:44.640 --> 0:29:47.320 And again there's so little research done onlines and known 0:29:47.360 --> 0:29:50.840 about lines that people just we just don't know enough yet, right, 0:29:51.240 --> 0:29:53.320 So a lot of times they thought, oh, it's like 0:29:53.400 --> 0:29:56.240 one lion causing the problem, you know, but they shoot 0:29:56.280 --> 0:29:59.080 the line and then you know, three two weeks later, 0:29:59.280 --> 0:30:02.560 you know, in the same zone, another sheep gets killed, right, 0:30:02.600 --> 0:30:06.600 so it wasn't the same line. Anyways, they tried relocating 0:30:06.600 --> 0:30:09.280 something one I forget the exact number, but it was 0:30:09.440 --> 0:30:13.040 up there. It was like miles. They moved it and 0:30:13.040 --> 0:30:15.520 it took the cat literally like two days, and it 0:30:15.560 --> 0:30:18.760 was back at the same farm and killed another sheep 0:30:19.200 --> 0:30:21.840 and it had been ear tagged or marked somehow, so 0:30:21.840 --> 0:30:23.920 they knew that it was the same cat. But what 0:30:24.000 --> 0:30:27.040 was interesting is that it's from that journey it's pads 0:30:27.360 --> 0:30:29.880 were just worn off, like there was almost no pad 0:30:29.960 --> 0:30:40.200 left on his palm m man. They know they wow. Yeah, 0:30:40.400 --> 0:30:42.000 I don't know if I could pull that off if 0:30:42.000 --> 0:30:45.240 you blindfolded me and dropped me off from about just 0:30:45.400 --> 0:30:48.080 the mechanism that works inside of an animal to have 0:30:48.160 --> 0:30:50.720 that homing instinct, because it's got it's picking up data 0:30:51.240 --> 0:30:53.640 from somewhere. I mean it's not I mean they're they're 0:30:53.680 --> 0:30:58.080 picking up they have some there's something happening. I'd like 0:30:58.120 --> 0:30:59.680 to know the mechanics. And yeah, we had a pet 0:30:59.720 --> 0:31:02.760 pitches Is one time, and they the neighbor people were 0:31:02.760 --> 0:31:06.560 complaining about him shoot in everybody's house and whatnot. And 0:31:06.640 --> 0:31:08.680 my brother had to go to a work meeting. He 0:31:08.720 --> 0:31:10.280 went quite a way his way, I can't remember what 0:31:10.320 --> 0:31:12.520 it was, but almost a hundred miles away. You had 0:31:12.560 --> 0:31:15.040 to go to an overnight work meeting. So he took 0:31:15.040 --> 0:31:17.080 the pigeons up there and caught him loose. When he 0:31:17.080 --> 0:31:19.760 got home, they were already home. They beat him home. 0:31:21.000 --> 0:31:25.280 But they're famous for that. HM. A new paper published 0:31:25.280 --> 0:31:28.560 in the journal Nature details the release of new DNA 0:31:28.760 --> 0:31:34.480 evidence extracted from sediment in Dennis Over Cave. Oh that's 0:31:34.480 --> 0:31:38.600 where the Dennis Open name comes from, right, The vice 0:31:38.680 --> 0:31:43.400 versa versa it's a cave in Siberia. Oh it is. 0:31:43.560 --> 0:31:46.479 But did did did the cave get named that because 0:31:46.520 --> 0:31:51.040 of what's there? Or did the did the did the 0:31:50.480 --> 0:31:54.560 humans humans get named about? Help me out. Damans are 0:31:54.640 --> 0:31:57.920 named after the place because we don't really know what 0:31:57.960 --> 0:32:00.160 they were called. Okay, So that's so it wasn't that 0:32:00.360 --> 0:32:03.640 we knew. We named it somewhere else. There was a man, 0:32:03.680 --> 0:32:06.400 there was a modern man that lived in the cave 0:32:07.000 --> 0:32:10.400 that was somehow had a name that started with with 0:32:10.480 --> 0:32:12.600 the D as I understood it. So they called it 0:32:12.800 --> 0:32:15.360 that kind of cave. This is my understanding of it. 0:32:15.480 --> 0:32:17.200 And then they went in and found the stuff and 0:32:17.200 --> 0:32:19.480 they called the people that name of the cave. Is 0:32:19.480 --> 0:32:24.200 that what you remember? Yeah? I slept in the cave 0:32:24.680 --> 0:32:27.800 um no a southern to cave and Wyoming. They had 0:32:27.840 --> 0:32:31.160 been slept in. I slept into cave and Wyoming. They 0:32:31.200 --> 0:32:34.200 had been slept in by some cowboy that went crazy 0:32:34.200 --> 0:32:37.040 and ate some people, and they named it after him. 0:32:37.320 --> 0:32:42.480 I slept in that cave. You haven't eaten anybody yet, 0:32:43.040 --> 0:32:50.320 but you're still young. Okay. Let me back up. New 0:32:50.400 --> 0:32:54.880 DNA evidence extracted from sediment in Denisova Cave in Russian Siberia. 0:32:57.960 --> 0:33:01.840 Previous analysis of ancient DNA extracted from fossils found in 0:33:01.920 --> 0:33:07.360 Denisova Cave have revealed that it was inhabited by Neanderthals, 0:33:07.480 --> 0:33:09.760 which sometimes I think they're back to Thal, but for 0:33:09.760 --> 0:33:17.960 a while it's tall Neanderthal Neanderthals, falls, dennis Ovans, and 0:33:18.040 --> 0:33:25.000 a hybrid of the two. But few fossilized few fossilized 0:33:25.000 --> 0:33:27.040 remains have been found in the cave, so it's unclear 0:33:27.080 --> 0:33:33.080 when different groups visited and in what order. Mhm. But 0:33:33.160 --> 0:33:37.680 what's the time periods? To you? It's a long time ago. Now. 0:33:37.760 --> 0:33:40.600 This study provides a timeline of occupation with over seven 0:33:40.680 --> 0:33:44.760 hundred sentiments samples dated from three hundred thousand to twenty 0:33:44.800 --> 0:33:49.280 thousand years ago, so the cave could have sat there 0:33:49.320 --> 0:33:52.959 for quite a long time between visits comin. It's three 0:33:53.040 --> 0:33:58.920 hundred thousand years ago. That's interesting, right. I think part 0:33:58.920 --> 0:34:03.640 of the reasons that I have Dennisovan DNA because we 0:34:03.680 --> 0:34:06.320 don't know the story of how indigenous people's came to 0:34:06.320 --> 0:34:10.080 the America's truly do we. There's theories about the barn 0:34:10.160 --> 0:34:15.319 straight theory, but when you find DNA going that far 0:34:15.440 --> 0:34:21.080 back in Siberia in Siberia means that we're different in 0:34:21.160 --> 0:34:25.400 some sense, but we don't really know when indigenous people's 0:34:25.400 --> 0:34:29.920 came here. But to have that antiquity of DNA that 0:34:30.040 --> 0:34:35.239 flows into me today is fascinating. Right, tell me, tell 0:34:35.280 --> 0:34:37.560 me what you mean by that. I mean, like, are 0:34:37.560 --> 0:34:41.040 you saying that there was another You're saying they didn't. 0:34:41.800 --> 0:34:44.360 There's other theories of well, I know, there's other theories 0:34:44.360 --> 0:34:46.600 other than the Barren Land Bridge. You know, water access 0:34:46.640 --> 0:34:50.240 through the Northwest. Forbid that indigenous people's got on boats 0:34:50.239 --> 0:34:54.400 at some point. Figure that out. But we can get 0:34:54.480 --> 0:34:58.800 into anthropology and John Wesley Powell and the Powell doctrine 0:34:58.840 --> 0:35:02.120 later on, but it just bankes the whole question of 0:35:02.520 --> 0:35:09.560 how indigenous people's got here. Yeah, do you do you? Um, 0:35:09.680 --> 0:35:11.560 that's a good question or not a good question, but 0:35:11.560 --> 0:35:17.360 it's an interesting point. Do you do you contest or 0:35:17.360 --> 0:35:18.880 do you like if you look at sort of the 0:35:18.920 --> 0:35:22.800 academic consensus. Okay, the academic consensus being like some point 0:35:22.840 --> 0:35:27.000 in time, probably less than thirty thousand years ago, sometime 0:35:27.080 --> 0:35:33.280 around thirty to twenty years ago, the first Americans entered, 0:35:33.560 --> 0:35:36.759 you know, the New World, Okay, entered what's now North 0:35:36.800 --> 0:35:41.920 American South America via some sort of land bridge that 0:35:41.920 --> 0:35:45.120 connected Alaska with Siberia. Like when you hear it, like 0:35:46.120 --> 0:35:50.839 do you do you look? Is your viewpoint? I don't 0:35:50.880 --> 0:35:54.120 know is your viewpoint? That sounds right, that sounds wrong, 0:35:54.520 --> 0:35:56.319 It sounds right. But I think there's more to the 0:35:56.440 --> 0:36:00.719 story because now we found all sorts of anthropological evidence 0:36:00.800 --> 0:36:04.800 that indigenous peoples were here thirty two thirty five thousand 0:36:05.000 --> 0:36:07.880 years ago and beyond. So that goes beyond the Younger 0:36:07.960 --> 0:36:11.759 Drives event and makes you question how indigenous people's got 0:36:11.840 --> 0:36:18.120 here so so long ago? Where is that? Because I'm 0:36:18.160 --> 0:36:22.360 familiar with Cooper's ferry, which would have put things back 0:36:22.440 --> 0:36:26.440 to like seventeen thousand years ago, But thirty thousand years ago, 0:36:26.480 --> 0:36:29.200 where where is that? Thirty two thousand plus down and 0:36:29.280 --> 0:36:33.400 the tip of the Tierra del Fuego. I'll have to 0:36:34.200 --> 0:36:36.840 look at my nose to see exactly who was the 0:36:36.880 --> 0:36:40.319 researchers doing that. But the main fact that points to 0:36:40.360 --> 0:36:44.480 me is the actual multiplicity of tribal languages in the 0:36:44.480 --> 0:36:48.080 Americas as a function of mathematical time, ten thousand years 0:36:48.200 --> 0:36:51.680 was not enough to have the diversity of languages. Um, yeah, 0:36:51.680 --> 0:36:54.640 that's an interesting point. Man explained that a little bit 0:36:55.040 --> 0:36:58.080 just going to that, just the variation. There's six or 0:36:58.120 --> 0:37:03.080 seven main tribal language families in the Americas, but to 0:37:03.160 --> 0:37:09.560 have them diversify into such distinct dialects and different language 0:37:09.560 --> 0:37:13.160 families would take a lot more than ten thousand years 0:37:13.200 --> 0:37:16.240 to do it. If you're assuming that the Foundation Group, 0:37:16.520 --> 0:37:18.799 if you have this assumption that the Foundation Group was 0:37:18.880 --> 0:37:23.439 some single wave of individuals who were that's not enough. Yeah, 0:37:23.480 --> 0:37:25.480 I got you. But if there's multiple waves of it. 0:37:26.200 --> 0:37:28.759 But the questions for me is why is it so 0:37:28.840 --> 0:37:31.080 inherent that we can only look at the bearing straight 0:37:31.239 --> 0:37:33.920 language theory? Oh? Man, I feel like people looked at 0:37:33.920 --> 0:37:36.480 a lot of theories. You ever hear the Salutrian theory, 0:37:38.680 --> 0:37:42.080 which was dismissed on like I think like dismissed on. Well, 0:37:42.320 --> 0:37:44.520 let me it's real quick if you if I get 0:37:44.520 --> 0:37:46.480 it wrong. But there was this idea that if you 0:37:46.520 --> 0:37:51.799 looked at paleolithic, well use the word paleolithic. We're talking 0:37:51.800 --> 0:37:55.120 about your when you look at like paleolithic stone technology 0:37:56.160 --> 0:38:00.600 thirty thousand years ago, forty years ago was remarkable, similar 0:38:01.000 --> 0:38:07.080 to stone technology of Indigenous Americans from four years ago. 0:38:07.280 --> 0:38:10.120 So someone rather than being that different groups of people 0:38:10.160 --> 0:38:13.080 came up kinda with the same idea independently. There was 0:38:13.120 --> 0:38:15.920 this idea that ah ha, they had to have been 0:38:16.000 --> 0:38:20.279 influenced but Western Europeans or vice versus Dave or vice versa, 0:38:20.840 --> 0:38:24.160 and we don't know that. But that makes an interesting 0:38:24.320 --> 0:38:28.440 question of was there some type of knowledge that was 0:38:28.520 --> 0:38:31.120 inherent to both and then it came from somewhere else. 0:38:32.680 --> 0:38:37.200 Certainly there was a lot of Europeans here earlier on 0:38:37.520 --> 0:38:41.160 than Columbus. But again, that becomes one of those questions, 0:38:41.239 --> 0:38:46.200 why is the Columbus discovery doctrine such a big part 0:38:46.280 --> 0:38:50.880 of Western American thought? Do you have a theory on 0:38:50.960 --> 0:38:53.320 why it is? I've often wondered that, like why is 0:38:53.400 --> 0:38:59.520 it John Wesley Pale? First? Well, but because yeah, because 0:38:59.800 --> 0:39:04.279 like clubs never hit, he was never even he never 0:39:04.360 --> 0:39:05.920 hit that, he never hit what became the US? Like 0:39:05.960 --> 0:39:09.400 he landed in the West Indies? How how did it 0:39:09.440 --> 0:39:12.960 become to be that that that school children feel that 0:39:14.200 --> 0:39:18.239 Columbus it's a great marketing job. But what are they 0:39:18.480 --> 0:39:23.560 what were they marketing? How how Europeans discovered America and 0:39:23.680 --> 0:39:28.319 civilized it versus looking at the actual history of how 0:39:28.360 --> 0:39:31.040 many people were here in Americas and what they were 0:39:31.080 --> 0:39:36.239 doing prior to that. Um, we got a lot of 0:39:36.400 --> 0:39:38.439 balls in the air right now. But I want let's 0:39:38.440 --> 0:39:43.360 do this. I want let's talk about this one. We 0:39:43.440 --> 0:39:46.160 got into the we got into the question of how 0:39:46.520 --> 0:39:49.480 Indigenous Americans arrived and when they arrived the question mark. 0:39:49.600 --> 0:39:52.240 But let's talk for a second. If you could explain 0:39:53.719 --> 0:39:56.200 how many people were here? I was hoping we were 0:39:56.239 --> 0:39:57.719 going to get to that. Yeah, I mean, we're like 0:39:57.800 --> 0:39:59.480 out of you know, we're out of or I don't 0:39:59.520 --> 0:40:01.680 know for a we're not out of order. Whatever, how 0:40:01.760 --> 0:40:05.239 many people were here? A lot of different estimates, Um, 0:40:05.840 --> 0:40:08.839 A bunch of different camps from anthropology historically have gone 0:40:08.880 --> 0:40:11.040 over it. But it's been a matter of political debate. Though. 0:40:11.880 --> 0:40:14.920 To me, the question is why there seems to be 0:40:16.080 --> 0:40:22.280 an influence in anthropology, especially in amateur anthropology, to diminish 0:40:22.360 --> 0:40:25.839 the number of people that were here, and that gets 0:40:25.880 --> 0:40:31.040 to to make the crime not as severe. Right, So 0:40:31.239 --> 0:40:34.840 what's being ignored entirely regardless of how many estimates have 0:40:34.920 --> 0:40:39.000 gone up to over a hundred million, with the bulk 0:40:39.080 --> 0:40:43.520 of those being in in meso America, So the heartland 0:40:43.600 --> 0:40:46.120 of the food explosion in the America is whether it's 0:40:46.160 --> 0:40:51.080 Peru or or a Central America. That's a high extreme number. 0:40:51.120 --> 0:40:53.880 That is high extreme number, but that was for the 0:40:53.920 --> 0:40:58.120 most part, that number is in in Meso America. The 0:40:58.320 --> 0:41:03.680 numbers in North America the most liberal or around sixteen million, 0:41:05.120 --> 0:41:08.880 sixteen million people. Now this would have been at the 0:41:09.280 --> 0:41:13.800 at the peak pre European pre disease. Pre disease is 0:41:13.840 --> 0:41:15.960 the big point. So that's one of the things that 0:41:16.120 --> 0:41:19.920 most people don't understand when understanding the history of America 0:41:20.719 --> 0:41:24.160 is looking at what actually happened here before. So we 0:41:24.280 --> 0:41:28.800 have accounts from the Spanish counkyst doors of these advanced 0:41:28.840 --> 0:41:33.480 societies and vast numbers of people and then when they 0:41:33.520 --> 0:41:36.440 got their butts kicked and then came back upset that 0:41:36.520 --> 0:41:39.560 nobody was there. So one thing one of the things 0:41:39.600 --> 0:41:43.319 that anthropology has been able to uncover now national geographics 0:41:43.360 --> 0:41:47.520 doing a lot with this, but use of technology of light, art, etcetera. 0:41:47.640 --> 0:41:50.960 To find all these ancient villages, whether they're in Central 0:41:51.000 --> 0:41:55.800 America or in South America. Um, but a smallpox for 0:41:55.840 --> 0:41:59.360 the most part, you can throw in some plague, whatever 0:41:59.480 --> 0:42:01.440 else you want. There's been traces of it found. But 0:42:03.200 --> 0:42:07.360 whether it was Canada now the United States, Central America, 0:42:07.440 --> 0:42:10.680 South America. Nolan was immune to the impact of smallpox, 0:42:11.840 --> 0:42:15.359 and for the most part, those extremes go between eighty 0:42:15.440 --> 0:42:21.600 five and decimation. Rights of the population died. So when 0:42:21.640 --> 0:42:27.439 we're talking about and impact on these societies, um, if 0:42:28.120 --> 0:42:31.120 you know which five percent has left? Were they the 0:42:31.160 --> 0:42:35.800 most wise probably not. Are they the oldest story keepers? 0:42:35.880 --> 0:42:38.600 Probably not? But what was left out of the five 0:42:38.640 --> 0:42:43.520 percent leaves us with a cultural amnesia. Oh, like coming 0:42:43.560 --> 0:42:46.400 out of a pandemic, it sort of gives you and 0:42:46.480 --> 0:42:49.560 we're upset about what what actual percentage of people died 0:42:49.640 --> 0:42:53.719 from the pandemic and we were terrified, what's up? One 0:42:55.239 --> 0:42:58.640 match in the world of everyone you knew and cared 0:42:58.680 --> 0:43:01.319 and loved about was gone. But that's why I think 0:43:01.360 --> 0:43:04.279 that I'm not trying to draw a pair of Please 0:43:04.280 --> 0:43:05.880 don't think I was trying to draw a parallel between 0:43:06.000 --> 0:43:09.440 smallpox epidemic and COVID nineteen. But I was saying, like, 0:43:10.560 --> 0:43:14.360 for a year we were invited to imagine, right, we 0:43:14.560 --> 0:43:17.960 learned the sort of lexicon of pandemics. You know, a 0:43:18.000 --> 0:43:22.600 new generation learned to like think and talk about contagion 0:43:22.640 --> 0:43:30.319 and pandemics. Point being. If you imagine that of Americans 0:43:32.360 --> 0:43:36.239 were carried off by COVID nineteen, some amount of time 0:43:36.280 --> 0:43:41.520 elapsed and then someone showed up and wanted to sort 0:43:41.560 --> 0:43:47.719 of categorize and describe us culturally, you would probably want 0:43:47.800 --> 0:43:51.839 to say, oh, no, no, oh, there's a big misunderstanding. Um, 0:43:52.080 --> 0:43:54.960 we all just died, you see, and we're in the 0:43:55.239 --> 0:43:59.960 you know, we're in a period of tremendous turmoil right now. Mhmm. 0:44:00.520 --> 0:44:02.920 You know it would be similar to it because I 0:44:03.000 --> 0:44:05.880 think that you, I don't know if you have feelings 0:44:05.880 --> 0:44:11.160 about if you read he talks in there. I like 0:44:11.320 --> 0:44:15.520 Charles Mann's work a lot. He compares in their accounts 0:44:15.600 --> 0:44:22.759 of people traveling down the Mississippi side, um post smallpox, 0:44:23.760 --> 0:44:27.560 they can't find anybody, right, but they encounter like city 0:44:27.800 --> 0:44:30.120 or towns and cities and they're like all every but 0:44:30.280 --> 0:44:34.600 left was the idea well packed up a win somewhere 0:44:35.000 --> 0:44:38.520 was the best they could come up with. Or unfortunately 0:44:38.719 --> 0:44:43.239 that those best cities or trading networks were not made 0:44:43.280 --> 0:44:46.560 by them. So that's you have early anthropology trying to 0:44:46.640 --> 0:44:50.240 understand what happened, and they found all these this evidence 0:44:50.320 --> 0:44:54.800 of these mound builders or the Mississippian societies, and the 0:44:54.880 --> 0:44:57.000 first bit of evidence they did was to go to 0:44:57.040 --> 0:44:58.800 the local tribes and say, hey, what do you know 0:44:58.840 --> 0:45:03.880 about these and there we don't know. But when you 0:45:04.000 --> 0:45:09.319 put in to the equation that people died, there're gonna 0:45:09.320 --> 0:45:15.240 have culture amnesia of nearly everything, perhaps safe stories, cosmology, 0:45:15.400 --> 0:45:19.480 the remnants of agricultural life ways. If this all would 0:45:19.480 --> 0:45:22.839 have started happening in the fifteen hundreds pretty much when 0:45:23.400 --> 0:45:27.279 when pretty much Europeans started coming here and bringing smallpox. 0:45:27.760 --> 0:45:30.480 So what you're alluding to is that so that's when 0:45:30.960 --> 0:45:37.160 the decimation would have started. But then, like Cahokia, you're 0:45:37.200 --> 0:45:40.920 saying that even at that time, there were remnants of 0:45:41.040 --> 0:45:46.680 ancient civilizations that the natives that were alive knew nothing about. 0:45:46.840 --> 0:45:50.800 So there was some other, potentially some other catastrophic event 0:45:51.160 --> 0:45:54.520 that happened pre European arrival. Is that what we're is 0:45:54.520 --> 0:45:56.600 that what we're saying could be or could just be 0:45:56.680 --> 0:46:00.680 a major change in an urban experiment. So you see 0:46:00.840 --> 0:46:07.200 the rise of the Mississippian culture, uh somewhere around and 0:46:07.280 --> 0:46:10.600 then around one thousand, ten fifty fifty four was the 0:46:10.600 --> 0:46:13.040 big year. It was a big supernova in the sky. 0:46:13.120 --> 0:46:15.839 If we would see a star that hung there ten 0:46:15.960 --> 0:46:19.839 times brighter than than Venus for two or three months, 0:46:19.880 --> 0:46:23.600 and then hung out for another couple of years. Stars 0:46:23.640 --> 0:46:25.960 in the sky seemed to be a very important thing 0:46:26.000 --> 0:46:30.160 to human beings, influenced this religion, et cetera. And so 0:46:30.640 --> 0:46:33.480 you have at some of these places. First and foremost 0:46:33.640 --> 0:46:36.600 was Hokia. Of course we don't know what the name was, 0:46:37.080 --> 0:46:39.080 but that was a local name that they that they 0:46:39.120 --> 0:46:41.799 found from it, but began the rise of an urban 0:46:41.880 --> 0:46:45.719 population and a massive trading network, which goes back to 0:46:45.800 --> 0:46:50.000 the question of where did they get that model from. 0:46:51.000 --> 0:46:56.759 Was that an impact of Phoenicians, European societies coming Did 0:46:56.840 --> 0:47:00.560 it come from us and went over there? Very very fascinating, 0:47:00.600 --> 0:47:03.200 but regardless places like a Hokey in the Rise of 0:47:03.239 --> 0:47:10.520 the Mississippian cultures, um dispels the myth that America was 0:47:11.800 --> 0:47:14.960 untapped wilderness. That's what I love about Charles Man's work, 0:47:15.040 --> 0:47:19.520 especially he's talking about the impact of the Colombian exchange. 0:47:20.320 --> 0:47:23.560 Flora and faun are going over one direction, and flora 0:47:23.560 --> 0:47:25.920 and faun are coming back. How did the potato get 0:47:26.000 --> 0:47:30.560 to Ireland? How did baby corn get to China? Why 0:47:30.719 --> 0:47:33.640 was their corn found in the ark Ark of the Covenant. 0:47:34.239 --> 0:47:38.759 These are interesting mysteries. What happened to a lot of 0:47:38.760 --> 0:47:40.520 the copper in the Great Lakes that was mind out 0:47:40.520 --> 0:47:43.319 because it probably wasn't mind by indigenous people because there's 0:47:43.360 --> 0:47:46.800 no record of that being in in vast cases. So 0:47:46.960 --> 0:47:49.799 the mysteries of America go well beyond what our understanding 0:47:50.800 --> 0:47:55.560 is today. But hopefully between anthropology and history and conversations 0:47:55.640 --> 0:47:57.600 like this, you know, eventually we're going to figure it out. 0:48:07.239 --> 0:48:11.080 Can you explain Kahokia a little bit, but like just 0:48:11.200 --> 0:48:14.120 a little more detailed massive trading network. It was an 0:48:14.160 --> 0:48:17.319 empire for sure. There were boundaries, there were markers, there's 0:48:17.320 --> 0:48:19.680 all sorts of stuff we have in the anthropological record. 0:48:20.400 --> 0:48:26.600 You have in the Mississippian cultures. The urban center that 0:48:26.840 --> 0:48:30.760 was Cahokia, and it's at the confluence of the Missouri 0:48:30.840 --> 0:48:36.479 Mississippi and the Ohio Rivers, which effectively give you north, southeast, east, 0:48:36.560 --> 0:48:41.239 and west water passage to bring things there. It was 0:48:41.280 --> 0:48:44.720 a massive trading network for sure because of the rivers. 0:48:45.000 --> 0:48:47.960 I didn't I didn't realize that. And it's just across 0:48:48.040 --> 0:48:52.400 from modern day St. Louis and Illinois. Yeah, yep. And 0:48:52.480 --> 0:48:56.920 it was it was a trading empire, and with it 0:48:57.040 --> 0:49:03.440 came boundaries um East coast marine shells, um arguably precious 0:49:03.480 --> 0:49:08.440 stones from the southwest Obsidian, many many, many things being 0:49:08.600 --> 0:49:13.000 being traded. But back to the what was happening there 0:49:13.200 --> 0:49:18.960 was these grand stories being told. Ultimately, the primary story, 0:49:19.400 --> 0:49:22.759 or arguably the oldest story in North America was about 0:49:22.800 --> 0:49:26.120 the first humans. So we have first Father and first Mother. 0:49:26.200 --> 0:49:30.400 Oftentimes she's known as Mother Corn or Earth's Mother, and 0:49:30.640 --> 0:49:33.600 they had a number of progeny depending on the tribes, 0:49:35.000 --> 0:49:40.520 and ultimately there were ten sons and two daughters. And 0:49:40.600 --> 0:49:43.880 that was in the time of giants, and the giants 0:49:43.920 --> 0:49:47.400 were competing with us as well, and we have evidence 0:49:47.440 --> 0:49:51.600 of this through the anspological record. Ancestors of my mother 0:49:51.719 --> 0:49:56.719 tribe um the Omaha, at a place called Picture Cave, 0:49:56.760 --> 0:50:02.360 about a hundred miles outside of the urban center of 0:50:02.560 --> 0:50:05.120 of Kahokia. It's one of these places that has been 0:50:05.200 --> 0:50:08.320 so desecrated that they won't tell you exactly where it is, 0:50:08.400 --> 0:50:11.480 but there's all these pictographs of all these stories battles 0:50:11.520 --> 0:50:16.399 between the giants and First Father, and within that tree 0:50:16.440 --> 0:50:20.000 of life, the first humans of a course, were from above, 0:50:20.440 --> 0:50:22.120 so they were part of the upper realm, and first 0:50:22.160 --> 0:50:25.360 Father he also carried the name of White Plume. But 0:50:25.520 --> 0:50:29.040 ultimately he became interested and understanding the powers of the 0:50:29.120 --> 0:50:32.759 lower realm. But probably that notion of Yen and Young, 0:50:32.920 --> 0:50:36.040 that there's a sacred balance and harmony. And he said, 0:50:36.320 --> 0:50:40.320 um a spirit wolf down to the lower realm to explore. 0:50:41.480 --> 0:50:44.080 But that was taboo, and so one of the water 0:50:44.200 --> 0:50:47.800 spirits ate it. First Father became upset with that and 0:50:47.880 --> 0:50:50.239 made his own journey from the upper realm down to 0:50:50.280 --> 0:50:54.760 the lower watery realm. And some of our stories he gambled, 0:50:55.000 --> 0:50:58.160 and some of the stories they dueled. But the water spirit, 0:50:58.200 --> 0:51:02.479 it was a beaver spirit. Ah won the battle, tuck 0:51:02.600 --> 0:51:07.399 his life and kept his head and his body, send 0:51:07.440 --> 0:51:11.279 it back up soulless without it. And thus enters the 0:51:11.400 --> 0:51:15.000 stories of one of the sons called Red Horn and 0:51:15.200 --> 0:51:17.759 his two sons, the twins. I'm referred to it as 0:51:17.800 --> 0:51:22.520 the Red Horn trilogy. But he was the one that 0:51:22.680 --> 0:51:27.440 you find all of these wonderful flint clay card figurines 0:51:28.120 --> 0:51:31.719 out of spy row in the outskirts of Kahokia. But 0:51:31.880 --> 0:51:35.040 tell the story of him. He had a clan name. 0:51:35.120 --> 0:51:37.160 It was probably along the lines of He who was 0:51:37.239 --> 0:51:39.360 hit with deer lungs, probably had to do with the 0:51:39.400 --> 0:51:43.840 clan taboo, probably a dear clan type of name. But 0:51:43.960 --> 0:51:46.640 think things that you can't touch, things that you have 0:51:46.760 --> 0:51:49.320 the rights to do, and things you can't do, and 0:51:49.400 --> 0:51:52.759 that's probably had to refer to that. And eventually he 0:51:52.840 --> 0:51:57.400 became a very very powerful character in this Mississippi cosmology 0:51:57.600 --> 0:52:02.840 and history, and ultimately the giants became agitated with the humans, 0:52:02.920 --> 0:52:06.680 and these battles occurred back and forth and contests. In 0:52:06.840 --> 0:52:09.680 one there was a race and the giants, being bigger, 0:52:09.880 --> 0:52:12.200 we're gonna win, except for the youngest one. He who 0:52:12.280 --> 0:52:15.399 was hit with deer lungs, turned himself into an arrow 0:52:15.520 --> 0:52:19.680 and won the race. Then they had a great stickball match, 0:52:19.840 --> 0:52:22.520 whether you look at the ball courts of meso America 0:52:23.360 --> 0:52:27.800 or the variations today amongst stickball of the Cherokee, we 0:52:27.880 --> 0:52:32.360 called it the little brother of warum versions of shinny, 0:52:33.120 --> 0:52:35.239 which is probably influenced a lot of field hockey and 0:52:35.280 --> 0:52:40.160 of course lacrosse. Little brother of war. Stick games were 0:52:40.400 --> 0:52:44.680 preparation for future yes or brutal I played when I 0:52:44.800 --> 0:52:50.600 was young brutal America there played to the death weren't there, 0:52:50.680 --> 0:52:52.200 and they did in this case too, and that's what 0:52:52.360 --> 0:52:56.000 happened was he who was hit with deer lungs became 0:52:56.040 --> 0:52:59.480 the most valuable player and they beat the Giants and 0:52:59.680 --> 0:53:03.680 VP and all of all of the Giants team we 0:53:04.160 --> 0:53:09.000 were killed except for one woman. And she was a 0:53:09.080 --> 0:53:11.799 red haired Giantist and she was said to have been 0:53:11.880 --> 0:53:14.400 very beautiful. The tribes of different names for her of 0:53:14.520 --> 0:53:17.759 what she wore, etcetera. And she said, you may kill 0:53:17.840 --> 0:53:21.160 me or I will take one of you as my husband. 0:53:22.520 --> 0:53:26.520 And so ultimately that's that union between her and the 0:53:26.640 --> 0:53:30.680 figure that was to become Red Horn. They had the 0:53:31.440 --> 0:53:36.879 thunder twins. Ultimately, in a scene of domestic bliss um, 0:53:38.080 --> 0:53:40.680 he who was hit with deer lungs was then married 0:53:40.760 --> 0:53:43.200 to the Giantists. And depending on the tribe, the stories 0:53:43.280 --> 0:53:46.279 changed a little bit, but ultimately she was teasing him 0:53:46.320 --> 0:53:47.840 as she was cleaning the deer and was going to 0:53:47.920 --> 0:53:49.799 take the lungs that was going to throw them at him, 0:53:51.080 --> 0:53:53.680 and he says, no, don't do that, and all the 0:53:53.760 --> 0:53:55.920 brothers said, oh, don't do that. We were just teasing, 0:53:56.880 --> 0:53:59.920 and he explains to everyone, no, you really shouldn't tease 0:54:00.120 --> 0:54:04.880 me because I'm not really your brother. I'm from the 0:54:05.000 --> 0:54:08.080 Upper Realm, and I was sent by Earthmaker. So he 0:54:08.120 --> 0:54:11.640 had a series of four trickster heroes that came here, 0:54:11.960 --> 0:54:13.839 and he was the fifth in the final to help 0:54:14.800 --> 0:54:21.680 Um Bringer of knowledge to humanity. And ultimately after that 0:54:21.840 --> 0:54:24.840 he explained his true form, and he spit into his 0:54:24.960 --> 0:54:28.399 hands and covered his big long braid, and it became 0:54:28.480 --> 0:54:32.319 the color of red ochre. Thus all things sacred back 0:54:32.400 --> 0:54:40.000 to the impact of the Neanderthal's Neanderthals, Dennis Ovans, all 0:54:40.080 --> 0:54:44.920 of these things about ritual and art, etcetera. That was 0:54:45.040 --> 0:54:50.399 our vision here. Ultimately, after becoming Um Red Horn, then 0:54:50.480 --> 0:54:54.080 he also became his star visage as well, became the 0:54:54.320 --> 0:54:56.480 Morning Star. And there's many many stories and all the 0:54:57.280 --> 0:55:00.920 Plains tribe and the Suing tribes about what that role was. 0:55:01.880 --> 0:55:06.520 But then became the ultimate Battles as his son's the 0:55:06.920 --> 0:55:09.640 thunder Twins went down and fought the water Spirit and 0:55:09.680 --> 0:55:12.120 defeated it and brought back the head of First Father, 0:55:13.200 --> 0:55:17.200 and so that his body became unified once again and 0:55:17.280 --> 0:55:20.880 became the great ascension story of North America. So all 0:55:21.000 --> 0:55:27.640 great spiritual destined reverse become the focus of cosmology and 0:55:28.840 --> 0:55:32.400 and religion for that matter, whether it's Jesus or Mohammed 0:55:32.600 --> 0:55:35.320 or First Father. In this case, this was the story 0:55:35.360 --> 0:55:39.160 that was celebrated at Khokia, was the spiritual ascension of 0:55:40.040 --> 0:55:44.880 First Father back to the Upper Realm. So our stories 0:55:44.960 --> 0:55:51.400 are Abraham and many sons said Father Abraham. I mean, 0:55:51.440 --> 0:55:54.120 I just think it's just so interesting that. I mean, 0:55:54.120 --> 0:55:56.759 it's something, it's something so big and giant, which because 0:55:56.800 --> 0:56:00.359 you're saying it's it possibly was the largest city ever 0:56:00.680 --> 0:56:03.800 on this continent or the earliest. At the time it 0:56:03.880 --> 0:56:07.400 was the third largest city in the world. Yeah, you know, 0:56:07.880 --> 0:56:10.640 I've never heard of it. You ever heard of it, Steve, No, 0:56:10.920 --> 0:56:14.480 I only heard of you know what you would describe 0:56:14.520 --> 0:56:18.480 as like the Mississippian culture, the mound builders. But no, 0:56:18.640 --> 0:56:20.560 I don't, I don't. I'm not familiar. Can we get 0:56:20.640 --> 0:56:22.799 into the mounds a little bit? She's even reading your 0:56:22.880 --> 0:56:28.120 chapter of the book. I'm not a like sure, Like 0:56:28.680 --> 0:56:30.440 what were the mounds all about? And why are they 0:56:30.600 --> 0:56:34.319 associated with these people? You know, I visited that Serpent Mound. Yeah, 0:56:34.400 --> 0:56:35.839 I can tell you a lot about that one too. 0:56:35.920 --> 0:56:41.600 It's absolutely fascinating with its links to Rko astronomy, as above, 0:56:41.680 --> 0:56:45.759 so below UM, so many of the mounds as as 0:56:45.800 --> 0:56:50.440 we're we're finding, especially through k astronomy, that it was 0:56:51.280 --> 0:56:53.680 very much looking to the stars and trying to take 0:56:53.719 --> 0:56:58.640 those stories and to plant them here, make a connection 0:56:58.760 --> 0:57:03.600 between the two. And you had the rise of places 0:57:03.680 --> 0:57:07.879 like Cochia. You see the role of corn and ben 0:57:07.920 --> 0:57:13.560 as squash coming to North America, and we're that those 0:57:13.600 --> 0:57:18.240 modes of agriculture were than population exploded of indigenous peoples. 0:57:19.160 --> 0:57:23.360 Tied that with the religion of the stories of First 0:57:23.440 --> 0:57:26.280 Father and the ascension, and then you have this this 0:57:26.560 --> 0:57:31.000 this recipe for civilization. Let's where food and their marriage 0:57:31.240 --> 0:57:35.160 came together to form civilization. At the confluence of those 0:57:35.240 --> 0:57:38.880 two is where you find civilization here. But it became 0:57:38.920 --> 0:57:41.880 a massive trading network and empire, and those stories were 0:57:41.920 --> 0:57:46.120 shared trading. For the most part. At the city center, 0:57:46.200 --> 0:57:51.880 you had fifteen to two people at the actual um 0:57:52.240 --> 0:57:55.560 epicenter of all those mounds there, and there were hundreds 0:57:55.560 --> 0:57:58.480 of them, and we've lost many of them um due 0:57:58.560 --> 0:58:03.400 to the can struction and progress of the St. Louis, etcetera. 0:58:04.400 --> 0:58:09.600 But ultimately you had this Grand Plaza and the Grand 0:58:10.920 --> 0:58:15.240 Mound itself now known as Monks mound. But all of 0:58:15.320 --> 0:58:19.760 those were built in fairly rapid succession. You see, the 0:58:19.880 --> 0:58:23.800 reign of Khokia from around ten fifty too, began to 0:58:23.840 --> 0:58:28.000 wane around twelve. And we're not exactly these mounds. Just 0:58:28.120 --> 0:58:31.600 to give perspective, Oh, I want to say that Monks Mount. 0:58:31.640 --> 0:58:33.800 I have to look at my notes. Um. I mean, 0:58:33.880 --> 0:58:37.720 they're they're big. They're big, maybe fifty feet in elevation. 0:58:37.880 --> 0:58:40.240 I'm just guessing off higher than that, probably a hundred 0:58:40.320 --> 0:58:45.959 fifties two hundred stairs up those and there. The question 0:58:46.080 --> 0:58:49.080 is how did they get built? You know, they're right 0:58:49.160 --> 0:58:51.280 well right, but like how did they or you know, 0:58:51.360 --> 0:58:53.400 one of the questions is how did they move that 0:58:53.560 --> 0:58:57.959 much earth? A lot of people, I know, the Serpent Mound, 0:58:58.000 --> 0:59:03.720 they didn't know it was there until air travel. It 0:59:03.840 --> 0:59:06.360 was recognized from the air. They thought it was like 0:59:06.520 --> 0:59:10.480 just a natural but from the air you could realize 0:59:10.520 --> 0:59:14.560 it was his hundreds of yards long serpent with the 0:59:14.600 --> 0:59:17.760 head and a tongue. Oh, I see, no one knew 0:59:18.280 --> 0:59:20.120 the people that the people who are living there didn't 0:59:20.120 --> 0:59:23.280 know it was there until someone's like, holy cow, it's huge, 0:59:25.240 --> 0:59:26.840 and we've got all there's all kinds of stuff about 0:59:26.840 --> 0:59:29.400 its orientation which is in this A lot of that 0:59:29.560 --> 0:59:35.280 comes from my dear friend Dr William Remain. He's probably 0:59:35.360 --> 0:59:39.000 the leading r Q astronomy expert and he's done work 0:59:39.040 --> 0:59:42.800 all around, but started in the eighties with Serpent Mound 0:59:43.360 --> 0:59:46.440 that the undulations of the curve on one side are 0:59:46.680 --> 0:59:50.440 are tied to movements of the Sun, on the other 0:59:50.560 --> 0:59:53.720 side movements of the Moon. But what he discovered even 0:59:53.800 --> 0:59:58.120 more importantly after that, along with others, was that its 0:59:58.200 --> 1:00:04.920 orientation is pointing towards stellar North, so the head and 1:00:05.000 --> 1:00:10.520 the tail lineup perfectly. But it also helps measure um 1:00:11.560 --> 1:00:14.919 what is at the center? What is the poll star? 1:00:16.240 --> 1:00:18.440 What is it today? What was it five thousand years ago? 1:00:18.520 --> 1:00:22.439 And regardless of the wobble or procession of the Earth, 1:00:22.600 --> 1:00:26.240 it's still different. Radiants could point to the same thing. 1:00:26.920 --> 1:00:29.600 But the story itself, you'll find within most of the 1:00:29.640 --> 1:00:32.560 tribes of Cherokees, we have a story about that, and 1:00:32.640 --> 1:00:35.400 it's about how the Serpent ain't the Sun, but it's 1:00:35.440 --> 1:00:39.880 a constellation that you see at sunrise on summer solstice, 1:00:40.040 --> 1:00:43.080 that that constellation would would move towards the rising Sun, 1:00:43.160 --> 1:00:46.120 and it appears that it was eating the Sun. But 1:00:46.280 --> 1:00:48.200 we still have those stories today, and that's there's some 1:00:48.440 --> 1:00:50.600 aspect of that in the Serpent mound too, or somewhere, 1:00:50.680 --> 1:00:52.120 or at least I think it was eating an egg 1:00:53.120 --> 1:00:55.840 or some mound effigy I thought was eating an egg. 1:00:56.000 --> 1:00:59.120 Then someone say's probably a sun. Yeah, yeah, it's it's 1:00:59.120 --> 1:01:01.280 hard to say. But then you also have had parallels 1:01:01.360 --> 1:01:06.640 between what does the egg mean metaphorically? Is it knowledge Sophia? 1:01:07.200 --> 1:01:09.360 And then you get these comparables to the rest of 1:01:09.400 --> 1:01:12.560 Europe as well. You know, what is the sacred feminine, 1:01:12.600 --> 1:01:17.040 what is the sacred masculine? And perhaps that mound work 1:01:17.160 --> 1:01:20.760 is a is a combination of both. At the very least, 1:01:20.800 --> 1:01:24.360 it was the rise of civilization in the Americas well 1:01:24.440 --> 1:01:30.320 before we knew about the same type of civilization from Europeans. 1:01:30.360 --> 1:01:35.240 So typically we define civilization as mass, food and religion 1:01:35.320 --> 1:01:41.120 coming together. So the rise of the three sister agricultural 1:01:41.200 --> 1:01:45.200 life ways probably came up from from meso America. In 1:01:45.360 --> 1:01:48.640 terms of cosmologies, that are, they're all very similar. But 1:01:49.160 --> 1:01:53.560 you had explained the term cosmology cosmology, you know just 1:01:55.040 --> 1:01:58.560 where we come from. Um, all of our stories are 1:01:59.000 --> 1:02:01.840 indigenous stories, so most part are are very well tied together. 1:02:02.000 --> 1:02:07.040 But our original stories talk about that originally our homelands 1:02:07.120 --> 1:02:09.840 were in the Seven Sisters constellation of ple eight s, 1:02:10.480 --> 1:02:12.720 and that we came here on what most of the 1:02:12.760 --> 1:02:17.920 tribes called journey of the souls, and and our and 1:02:18.040 --> 1:02:24.800 my mother's tribal cosmology. Um the story talks about that 1:02:25.320 --> 1:02:28.360 in the beginning, our souls were like stars in the sky, 1:02:28.720 --> 1:02:32.360 thought but no form. And eventually one of those souls, 1:02:32.440 --> 1:02:36.280 one of those stars, asked the question of itself, who 1:02:36.360 --> 1:02:40.520 am I? And that question burned within that soul, that star. 1:02:42.520 --> 1:02:45.200 So that star went to its mother, the moon, And 1:02:45.240 --> 1:02:49.120 that's part of the cosmology that all things sacred feminine 1:02:49.200 --> 1:02:53.840 come come from the moon, and said mother, who am I? Oh, 1:02:54.240 --> 1:02:56.120 my child, she said, I was afraid you were going 1:02:56.160 --> 1:03:00.400 to ask that question. Hurry before you forget, go ask 1:03:00.440 --> 1:03:03.200 your father. So he goes to his father, the son 1:03:03.960 --> 1:03:08.320 the sacred masculine father, who am I? And he immediately 1:03:08.400 --> 1:03:12.440 chastised him and says, my child, be very very careful 1:03:12.520 --> 1:03:15.360 with that question who am I? For that is the 1:03:15.400 --> 1:03:19.320 most important question we have as a soul. But that star, 1:03:19.480 --> 1:03:21.960 that soul was like us today, and gossipy can't keep 1:03:22.000 --> 1:03:23.960 a secret. And soon there were four of them that 1:03:24.080 --> 1:03:28.600 asked the same question, and that signals the beginning of 1:03:28.640 --> 1:03:30.400 the journey of the souls through the dark rift of 1:03:30.440 --> 1:03:33.840 the Milky Way to hear our. Stories say that were 1:03:33.840 --> 1:03:37.440 guided by Venus, the Morning Star to get here, the 1:03:37.480 --> 1:03:40.240 planet next to us. And when those souls landed, it 1:03:40.360 --> 1:03:44.120 was an all watery planet, and they took the form 1:03:44.160 --> 1:03:47.200 of four animals, and this story is basically referred to 1:03:47.320 --> 1:03:50.840 as the Earth Diver. Meth and his variations almost crossed 1:03:50.880 --> 1:03:53.920 all the tribes and they took the form of four 1:03:53.960 --> 1:03:56.880 animals and depending on the tribe, but ultimately one of 1:03:56.960 --> 1:04:00.919 them dives down into the deep waters and brings back 1:04:01.000 --> 1:04:04.960 up the clay in the earth, and Turtle was the 1:04:05.040 --> 1:04:07.760 first one that asked that question. The soul said, who 1:04:07.840 --> 1:04:11.680 am I? I felt so bad that gotten the other 1:04:11.760 --> 1:04:16.160 ones into this new mess, this new conundrum that asked 1:04:16.840 --> 1:04:18.960 to put the clay on its back, and then that 1:04:19.080 --> 1:04:23.280 became Turtle Island. And that's the story of this continent 1:04:23.640 --> 1:04:26.880 and us coming to this world and the first humans 1:04:26.960 --> 1:04:29.360 that came out of the water. After that, that's the 1:04:29.400 --> 1:04:36.880 beginnings of the cosmology, the beginning before the beginning. That's 1:04:36.920 --> 1:04:39.880 the story that's in the braiding sweet grass. Yes, because 1:04:39.920 --> 1:04:41.920 we all have different variations. As you told that story, 1:04:42.000 --> 1:04:45.120 I was, I was, I thought that's where you were going. 1:04:45.240 --> 1:04:50.160 But Robbins tribe, the Potawatoms, there have a variation of 1:04:50.720 --> 1:04:54.800 woman who fell from the sky sky woman. So is 1:04:54.800 --> 1:04:56.800 it fair to say and just just so unclear that 1:04:56.880 --> 1:05:01.440 then cosmology could be like an indig this religion based 1:05:01.640 --> 1:05:07.520 absolute stars. Absolutely, okay, And so we have all those variations, 1:05:07.680 --> 1:05:11.680 which is another function of time. Those stories. That story 1:05:11.760 --> 1:05:16.080 in his origin comes out of Siberia, so there are 1:05:16.360 --> 1:05:21.920 there's similar there's a similar narrative or that that's from 1:05:22.000 --> 1:05:26.000 people there. Yes, and then you can measure the variations 1:05:26.080 --> 1:05:27.960 of the story based over time to try to get 1:05:28.000 --> 1:05:33.840 an understanding of the antiquity of that story. Huh. From 1:05:33.880 --> 1:05:41.320 an an indigenous perspective, stories or everything the watery planet. Um, 1:05:42.960 --> 1:05:45.600 that's very common, right, and even in even even in 1:05:45.760 --> 1:05:50.480 like the Judeo Christian tradition, it's common. There's there's an 1:05:50.520 --> 1:05:52.920 element of it with the with the notions of the 1:05:53.000 --> 1:06:00.240 great flood like a watery planet. Huh. There were a 1:06:00.280 --> 1:06:03.120 lot of parallels that I saw in so the book. 1:06:03.400 --> 1:06:06.360 We discussed this earlier. Taylor and I did about this 1:06:06.520 --> 1:06:09.520 Brady sweet Grass brook uh Robin, how do you say 1:06:09.520 --> 1:06:13.200 your last name? Yeah, but I saw a lot of 1:06:13.280 --> 1:06:16.280 parallels between. I mean, you didn't have to stretch it 1:06:16.400 --> 1:06:20.560 very far to see parallels between that story at some point, 1:06:20.680 --> 1:06:22.720 and you know the Book of Genesis, I mean there 1:06:22.800 --> 1:06:26.000 was a tree that had that people were punished for 1:06:26.280 --> 1:06:29.520 for eating the fruit of and different things. But just yeah, 1:06:30.240 --> 1:06:31.920 it was it was two different trees, the Tree of 1:06:32.000 --> 1:06:35.680 Knowledge and the Tree of life. So back to the cosmology, 1:06:35.840 --> 1:06:41.240 the tree of life is what's at the centerpiece of 1:06:41.400 --> 1:06:44.800 an understanding of a of a physical attribute of that. 1:06:45.040 --> 1:06:48.720 So we have the great Tree of Life, and it 1:06:48.880 --> 1:06:52.280 is the axis moondy of the universe. And in its 1:06:52.360 --> 1:06:58.080 branches is the upper realm, ruled by the thunderbans, the thunderers, 1:06:58.840 --> 1:07:02.720 and there and their messengers, the thunderbirds. And then the 1:07:02.880 --> 1:07:06.200 roots of the Tree of life is the lower watery realm, 1:07:06.280 --> 1:07:09.840 which is inhabited by water spirits. Chief amongst them is 1:07:09.880 --> 1:07:13.040 the underwater panther or the underwater serpent Cherokees we call 1:07:13.080 --> 1:07:18.840 her Uktana, but parallels to stories from esso America for sure. 1:07:19.640 --> 1:07:25.800 Kukl Khan quite uniquotal etcetera. But these are the things, Steve, 1:07:25.880 --> 1:07:30.440 that I get immersed in. The stories and storytelling captivating 1:07:30.480 --> 1:07:35.360 to most people, children and adults alike. I've discovered if you, 1:07:36.160 --> 1:07:39.960 when you look at your history, the history of your people, Um, 1:07:42.040 --> 1:07:48.760 is it puzzling to you that that people like us, 1:07:48.960 --> 1:07:52.200 like Western Europeans. Is it puzzling to you that, uh, 1:07:53.760 --> 1:07:57.840 we're probably that were more drawn to those questions as well, 1:07:58.000 --> 1:08:02.600 like more drawn to the history, the deep history of 1:08:03.200 --> 1:08:07.600 of this continent, then we are to the deep history 1:08:07.680 --> 1:08:12.120 of our own continent, where our where our ancestors came from. Like, 1:08:12.240 --> 1:08:15.480 I really have no desire, you know, I don't have 1:08:15.560 --> 1:08:19.640 I don't wonder about Western Europe. I don't wonder about Paleolt. 1:08:19.800 --> 1:08:21.080 I mean a little bit, but I don't like pay 1:08:21.120 --> 1:08:25.479 attention to the Paleolithic tradition there. But I'm very interested 1:08:25.479 --> 1:08:28.439 in the deep history here. But I could, but I 1:08:28.479 --> 1:08:31.960 could see that you would view it as you might are, 1:08:32.120 --> 1:08:33.920 you might view it as like not my history at all, 1:08:34.640 --> 1:08:37.200 But but somehow I feel like it is. Is that 1:08:37.360 --> 1:08:39.120 is that troubling to you that I feel that way? Now, 1:08:39.200 --> 1:08:40.880 It's not troubling at all, because I think that's so 1:08:41.000 --> 1:08:44.040 important Um. One of the reasons that I want to 1:08:44.120 --> 1:08:47.120 come and share on podcasts like this and to learn 1:08:47.200 --> 1:08:50.280 from others is to have a deeper understanding of what 1:08:50.479 --> 1:08:54.280 is the provenance of this land. It's fascinating all those 1:08:54.320 --> 1:08:58.600 stories that I've just shared. I mean, yeah, truths is 1:08:58.640 --> 1:09:02.960 greater than any fiction. The stories that happened at these places, 1:09:03.040 --> 1:09:05.960 the stories that were told about the the giants and 1:09:06.439 --> 1:09:12.040 the thunder beings and all these different aspects of indigenous cosmology. 1:09:12.360 --> 1:09:16.360 It gives a provenance to this country that most people 1:09:16.400 --> 1:09:19.680 don't realize is there, but it belongs to us all 1:09:19.920 --> 1:09:23.559 a greater understanding what was happening here. There's lessons in history, 1:09:23.920 --> 1:09:28.040 things to be gleaned and to be learned. Um. Perhaps 1:09:28.080 --> 1:09:30.679 even with with Kahki and some of the others, there 1:09:31.320 --> 1:09:36.040 are forebodings of what happens with large urban experiments. Can 1:09:36.120 --> 1:09:40.000 you can you talk the giant people? I have heard, 1:09:40.840 --> 1:09:46.160 um Bigfoot enthusiasts here. We talked about this before this ship. 1:09:46.960 --> 1:09:53.120 Bigfoot enthusiasts like that story, and they will sometimes say, oh, 1:09:53.280 --> 1:09:58.640 you can find evidence of Bigfoot in the mythologies of 1:09:58.760 --> 1:10:01.719 Native Americans, because they talked about a race of giants. 1:10:03.120 --> 1:10:06.800 Has to have been Bigfoot's um Do you do you 1:10:06.880 --> 1:10:13.519 know I'm voicing I'm voicing, you know, a fringe gentleman 1:10:13.680 --> 1:10:16.519 of you know, I'm voicing the perspective of a fringe 1:10:16.600 --> 1:10:19.680 element of big Foot enthusiasts. Only two. I'm only doing 1:10:19.720 --> 1:10:23.320 that to invite you as a way of inviting you 1:10:23.479 --> 1:10:29.240 to um offer any insights. Is it a metaphor? Like? 1:10:29.760 --> 1:10:33.000 Is it a metaphor for something? What was the rate 1:10:33.120 --> 1:10:36.040 like in the mythology or in the cosmology? What was 1:10:36.120 --> 1:10:39.200 the race of giants? Do I mean? Does it refer 1:10:39.320 --> 1:10:43.759 to a specific thing? Um? You find these stories throughout 1:10:43.920 --> 1:10:48.440 a lot of the tribes um back home in Nebraska. 1:10:48.479 --> 1:10:51.840 But we say niska, that's the Omaha word for the 1:10:51.880 --> 1:10:58.280 Platte River means flat water. But niska, that's a that's 1:10:58.320 --> 1:11:03.479 a beautiful word. Yeah, and uh, I think it was 1:11:03.520 --> 1:11:08.320 called the plant or the Missouri River, which we call 1:11:08.680 --> 1:11:11.080 ni shuta, which you means smoke on the water and 1:11:11.160 --> 1:11:14.920 what and all the all the Plains tribes give it 1:11:14.960 --> 1:11:17.200 the same name in their language. But what it refers 1:11:17.200 --> 1:11:21.080 to is before that river was damned up and they 1:11:21.120 --> 1:11:24.280 had this powerful, you know, kinetic motion, especially in the 1:11:24.320 --> 1:11:27.439 winter back when winters used to be really cold. Then 1:11:27.520 --> 1:11:30.320 you would see this frozen fog bank that would go 1:11:30.520 --> 1:11:33.040 above the water. And that's what it means, smoke on 1:11:33.080 --> 1:11:36.639 the water. And uh, we have lots of stories around 1:11:37.080 --> 1:11:39.720 around that. I want to I want to get I 1:11:39.760 --> 1:11:43.400 gotta interrupt. So there's two questions. There's gonna be three 1:11:43.439 --> 1:11:45.519 in a second. Well, I want to hear him talking 1:11:45.520 --> 1:11:48.160 about Bigfoot, but also want him to answer your question 1:11:48.160 --> 1:11:50.400 about where the giants came from. Yeah, but I want 1:11:50.520 --> 1:11:53.479 him to say to say a whole sentence in in 1:11:53.840 --> 1:11:56.360 your native language. I don't care what the hell you 1:11:56.400 --> 1:11:57.880 could say something bad about me. I just want to 1:11:57.920 --> 1:12:00.080 hear because I like hearing the river names. Well, I 1:12:00.160 --> 1:12:03.960 would be truly remiss if I didn't introduce myself properly. 1:12:04.479 --> 1:12:07.679 There you go, who abe that wannga They we weat 1:12:07.720 --> 1:12:12.400 the Bugisha hunger shanu in case of a long la 1:12:13.160 --> 1:12:17.280 uma habbedy. So that's our standard introduction that we would 1:12:17.320 --> 1:12:19.840 say in our tribe about the name that we carry. 1:12:20.360 --> 1:12:24.599 So aw that wanda. That means that we're all related. 1:12:25.280 --> 1:12:29.800 So whether it's white man in Indian or from whatever 1:12:29.880 --> 1:12:33.560 part of the world you're from, you would mean this 1:12:33.680 --> 1:12:36.200 is meeting a new person. So you could say we're 1:12:36.240 --> 1:12:39.880 all one. Say it again, um abe that wanga they 1:12:40.400 --> 1:12:42.679 you're not off the hook on big Foot. We're gonna, 1:12:42.720 --> 1:12:45.479 We're gonna okay. So that's so that's the beginning of 1:12:45.520 --> 1:12:49.080 the greeting. And so that that translation. I carry the 1:12:49.160 --> 1:12:54.360 name of Bison Maine of the earth and Bison clan 1:12:54.960 --> 1:12:56.920 of the people that move against the current. That's what 1:12:58.120 --> 1:13:01.280 Omaha is. The corruption of um Maha means the people 1:13:01.320 --> 1:13:02.920 that move against the current. What it had to do 1:13:03.080 --> 1:13:08.080 with are brother and sister tribes within our language family, 1:13:08.439 --> 1:13:11.360 and at a certain point we separated from each other, 1:13:12.360 --> 1:13:15.200 probably in the diaspora coming out of the Great Lakes region. 1:13:16.000 --> 1:13:20.600 Um those movements probably referred to our separation along the 1:13:20.640 --> 1:13:26.000 Mississippi or the Great Old Man people to move against 1:13:26.080 --> 1:13:27.679 current because they because this is a group of people 1:13:27.720 --> 1:13:30.360 that traveled up river. We went up upstream is another 1:13:31.560 --> 1:13:36.280 yeah Oumaha. And then you have um no ship that's 1:13:36.280 --> 1:13:39.679 pretty good. Clapha um down from your neck of the woods. 1:13:40.240 --> 1:13:43.840 We say Gogapa. It means the downstream people. And then 1:13:43.920 --> 1:13:47.320 you have the o sage means children of the middle waters. 1:13:49.520 --> 1:13:52.120 So all of those I think Kore and I were 1:13:52.160 --> 1:13:56.240 talking abous about this before, but so many American place 1:13:56.400 --> 1:14:03.160 names are indigenous. Now we have we transliterated into English 1:14:03.200 --> 1:14:05.439 and say, oh sage and quapol. I like the word 1:14:05.479 --> 1:14:10.080 you used corruption, it's powerful. My kids are I was like, 1:14:10.120 --> 1:14:12.000 why is that play's name that? And I's doing like 1:14:12.320 --> 1:14:15.160 I'll probably some guy's name. Yeah, I mean like go 1:14:15.360 --> 1:14:19.240 through them. I mean it's like it's just the states, cities, 1:14:19.400 --> 1:14:28.879 every states, the cities Dakota, Missouri Highway, Kansas, Oklahoma. Cancer 1:14:29.320 --> 1:14:33.880 is interpretation of what we say conz A, which means 1:14:34.400 --> 1:14:37.599 the wind people. They were a clan of a larger 1:14:37.680 --> 1:14:41.200 group of of our of our language family. But it 1:14:41.280 --> 1:14:45.360 goes on and on and on. I assume Michigan, Wisconsin. 1:14:46.720 --> 1:14:49.720 It is kind of interesting though, that there was some 1:14:49.960 --> 1:14:54.280 sort of uh, you know, want or interest in not 1:14:54.520 --> 1:14:59.160 completely just renaming it and calling the next next state Steve. 1:14:59.560 --> 1:15:02.120 And then the after that well they well they did 1:15:02.200 --> 1:15:05.400 that up in the northeast. Sure certainly did. But it's right. 1:15:05.439 --> 1:15:07.160 I mean, some of some of those names would have 1:15:07.200 --> 1:15:11.400 been more European, like New York. But then the further 1:15:11.520 --> 1:15:14.200 they got, these territories were more wild and I know 1:15:14.400 --> 1:15:17.639 Arkansas is a is a native name, and I've heard 1:15:18.280 --> 1:15:21.240 the name translates into downstream people. I don't know if 1:15:21.320 --> 1:15:25.800 you have heard that before, but anyway, I'm just guessing. Uh, 1:15:26.240 --> 1:15:31.840 I grew up in Moskegon County. That's for sure indigenous, right, 1:15:32.560 --> 1:15:35.720 My my understanding. There's a huge swamp there and it's 1:15:35.920 --> 1:15:39.439 it's like the Moskegan River delta, but it's the Moskegan 1:15:39.560 --> 1:15:42.240 River flowing in the delta that the Moskegan River makes 1:15:42.280 --> 1:15:47.160 as it flows into Lake Michigan. So my understanding. Um, 1:15:47.560 --> 1:15:49.519 and you know the way everybody explains it, it's a 1:15:49.600 --> 1:15:54.240 it's a big swamp. Okay, look, swamp area whatever. But 1:15:54.920 --> 1:15:56.479 just to kind of give you this is I'm not 1:15:56.520 --> 1:15:59.679 gonna tell you anything new. Here's a joke that would 1:15:59.680 --> 1:16:03.120 be tray affect when I was a kid. It would 1:16:03.160 --> 1:16:09.439 be that, oh, uh, an Indian was water skiing and 1:16:09.840 --> 1:16:17.840 his ski broke here and he said mosquegone. Mhm right. No, 1:16:18.200 --> 1:16:21.880 it'd be like no, I'm just I'm like Taylor's laughing, yeah, 1:16:21.960 --> 1:16:24.320 but I'm not. I'm not telling them. I don't think 1:16:24.360 --> 1:16:27.400 he's going to be shocked that people tell Indian jokes 1:16:27.439 --> 1:16:30.320 that are derogatory. I mean, I didn't make damn thing up. 1:16:30.320 --> 1:16:31.760 I'm just saying it's like a thing people. It's like 1:16:31.840 --> 1:16:35.760 a stupid ass thing people say. And why is that 1:16:35.880 --> 1:16:40.080 do you think? I don't know. Wow, why do people 1:16:40.120 --> 1:16:44.600 like the blittle things? Maybe they don't know what the 1:16:44.680 --> 1:16:47.120 real history is? Yeah? Why why do you? Yeah? Why 1:16:47.160 --> 1:16:49.400 do you like to I can't explain why people like 1:16:49.439 --> 1:16:53.240 the bluttle stuff. I don't know why you want to? Like? 1:16:53.280 --> 1:16:54.960 Why would you want to diminish something? I don't know. 1:16:55.960 --> 1:16:58.519 That's that's why I wrote the chapter in my book 1:16:58.560 --> 1:17:03.760 manuscript called the Under's Dilemma of America. Why do we 1:17:04.280 --> 1:17:09.240 have to create stories like Thanksgiving when in reality, the 1:17:09.320 --> 1:17:12.439 majority of what we think about is Thanksgiving is a 1:17:12.520 --> 1:17:20.559 lie and definitely belittles Indian slave trade in in New England, 1:17:21.400 --> 1:17:29.920 the Mohegan Pequot Wars. There's so much history that we 1:17:30.040 --> 1:17:32.960 just don't know about. But it's much more convenient, much 1:17:33.040 --> 1:17:36.800 more easy to say, oh, well, there's the pilgrims and 1:17:36.960 --> 1:17:40.880 they were saved by the local Native Americans. A hell 1:17:40.920 --> 1:17:43.400 of a party, had a hell of a party. The 1:17:43.479 --> 1:17:51.519 only time Thanksgiving was used was the Governor Winthrop I 1:17:51.640 --> 1:17:56.479 believe was his name after he sent a military party 1:17:56.600 --> 1:18:00.680 to slaughter over a hundred different tribal warriors, and when 1:18:00.680 --> 1:18:04.439 they came back, that's when they had to Thanksgiving. So 1:18:04.640 --> 1:18:08.639 when you juxtapose reality versus the myths that we come 1:18:08.760 --> 1:18:10.880 up with. But this is also part of the myth 1:18:11.000 --> 1:18:16.680 of in Columbus selled the ocean blue. I don't know 1:18:16.680 --> 1:18:19.519 if they still teach that to children, but most of 1:18:19.600 --> 1:18:24.360 us know that right. As a parent who's raising kids 1:18:24.400 --> 1:18:32.560 in America, UM, I don't know how. I don't know 1:18:32.640 --> 1:18:37.360 how helpful it is to them to I'm not really 1:18:37.439 --> 1:18:40.439 interested in bringing them up in an atmosphere of self loathing, 1:18:42.600 --> 1:18:43.680 do you know what I mean? Like, I don't know 1:18:43.760 --> 1:18:46.439 that it's doing them, that it's setting them up in 1:18:46.479 --> 1:18:51.120 a good path. So I think that there are complexities there. 1:18:51.200 --> 1:18:55.680 There are astounding complexities to history. But I think that 1:18:55.760 --> 1:19:02.519 the way we communicate with kids is parable, sure, right, 1:19:03.280 --> 1:19:05.880 And if if you find there's if there's like there's 1:19:05.920 --> 1:19:11.000 a value in love of your place, there's value in 1:19:11.760 --> 1:19:14.280 love of your country, there's value and love of your 1:19:14.280 --> 1:19:17.439 fellow man. I think that it's it's like, but there's 1:19:17.439 --> 1:19:19.760 a pretty good argument to be made for giving them 1:19:19.960 --> 1:19:26.360 when they're young, somewhat of an optimistic vision, right. I 1:19:26.479 --> 1:19:28.439 think that that's probably that this is not like the 1:19:28.520 --> 1:19:33.000 Moskegan stupid ship like that, just communicating to them there's 1:19:33.080 --> 1:19:37.120 something here that you should that you probably want to 1:19:37.200 --> 1:19:41.600 take care of, right. But I mean they could be 1:19:41.720 --> 1:19:47.240 equally enthralled with the story of total saving this planet. 1:19:47.800 --> 1:19:50.400 I don't know this story other than Sturgil Simpson mentions 1:19:50.439 --> 1:19:53.800 it and turtles all the way down, but you know 1:19:53.920 --> 1:19:57.760 it now I've shared it with you. I'm gonna read off. 1:19:58.280 --> 1:19:59.640 I'm gonna read up on it. I don't get the 1:19:59.680 --> 1:20:04.880 detail wrong, Listen, I'd love to telling that story. What 1:20:05.000 --> 1:20:07.760 I think you're saying, it's just that we we've distill down, 1:20:08.360 --> 1:20:13.320 We're distilled down our history into very simple, like you know, 1:20:13.960 --> 1:20:17.400 just flash points that are easy to communicate. So I mean, like, yeah, 1:20:17.560 --> 1:20:19.840 humans want to live in the now and sometimes want 1:20:19.880 --> 1:20:21.720 to look back the past and just see it as 1:20:21.800 --> 1:20:24.080 this like thing that could be subbed up in one sentence. 1:20:24.439 --> 1:20:27.800 And for whatever reason, Columbus was able to market the 1:20:27.880 --> 1:20:30.000 world marketed that Columbus found this place. So that's what 1:20:30.080 --> 1:20:32.479 we still teach. I mean, I think what you're I 1:20:32.560 --> 1:20:34.920 hear what you're saying. It's like it's easy to simplify 1:20:35.120 --> 1:20:39.920 things like really small and those things then become wrong. 1:20:40.240 --> 1:20:44.040 I mean because you can't tell complex stories with very 1:20:44.160 --> 1:20:47.240 simple things that you can't sit them all down and 1:20:47.320 --> 1:20:51.400 be like, you know, there's an arguments be made that, Um, 1:20:51.680 --> 1:20:56.519 there's no free will, right that everything's spelled out already. 1:20:56.760 --> 1:20:58.360 You're either gonna be the way you are or not. 1:20:58.760 --> 1:21:01.679 Nothing you can do about it. Um, people are horrible, 1:21:02.560 --> 1:21:05.559 good luck. That's I don't think that's not a good 1:21:05.600 --> 1:21:07.080 way of going about it. Why is it one or 1:21:07.160 --> 1:21:09.920 the other? And also what does it say to our 1:21:10.120 --> 1:21:16.680 collective consciousness if we exist on myth and continue to 1:21:16.720 --> 1:21:21.160 be okay with that? I don't know. Well, I think 1:21:21.320 --> 1:21:24.479 I think the thing is is that now because of 1:21:24.600 --> 1:21:27.400 the world we live, and we can find the accuracy 1:21:27.479 --> 1:21:29.719 and stories so here and you talk about Thanksgiving helps 1:21:29.960 --> 1:21:33.120 you know, and I've heard this before, but like that 1:21:33.560 --> 1:21:37.840 that helps us understand probably the way that we've been 1:21:38.840 --> 1:21:42.240 marketed well for sure been marketed to and so we 1:21:42.360 --> 1:21:44.720 can bring out more truth inside of the way that 1:21:44.840 --> 1:21:46.640 we exist from here on out, just because we know 1:21:47.040 --> 1:21:49.000 and I think you can find more separation between the 1:21:49.080 --> 1:21:52.920 optimism that you're talking about, Stephen, Like these bastardizations that 1:21:53.240 --> 1:21:58.040 are harmful and have implications today just stuff we tell 1:21:58.840 --> 1:22:06.880 our kids, and the truce shall set them free. Right Yeah, yeah, no, 1:22:07.080 --> 1:22:09.160 I told you. Listen, what I'm saying is like, what 1:22:09.280 --> 1:22:11.160 I'm saying is probably like I'm not doing a good 1:22:11.240 --> 1:22:14.639 job of articulating it. I'm just trying to um. I'm 1:22:14.720 --> 1:22:17.479 expressing the idea that there are certain sort of legends 1:22:17.520 --> 1:22:24.479 and mythologies that are that are told because they're effective. Sure, 1:22:26.400 --> 1:22:30.439 and I don't think people sit around weighing out weighing 1:22:30.479 --> 1:22:35.800 them out too thoroughly. I guess that. Okay, It's it's 1:22:35.880 --> 1:22:38.439 much easier to have history tied up in a pretty 1:22:38.439 --> 1:22:42.559 little bus, right. It's like the blitz Creek hypothesis, Right, 1:22:42.600 --> 1:22:45.760 It's much easier to believe that there was one event 1:22:45.840 --> 1:22:49.240 that killed all the all the megafauna, right. Yeah, you know, 1:22:49.479 --> 1:22:51.800 m I was surprised to see that Wikipedia still is 1:22:52.240 --> 1:22:56.400 is really hangs onto the blitz Creek hypothesis. Academia has 1:22:56.400 --> 1:23:00.439 moved on. Wikipedia's doubled down. It's like the burying straight theory. 1:23:00.600 --> 1:23:03.280 That's and there's a lot of work been done. Graham 1:23:03.320 --> 1:23:09.080 Hancock did a wonderful job and America BC no America before. 1:23:09.920 --> 1:23:13.160 But he goes into this whole understanding of what you 1:23:13.240 --> 1:23:17.200 have an American anthropology around around the Clovis First people's 1:23:17.840 --> 1:23:20.680 and how anthropology just held onto that held onto that. 1:23:21.479 --> 1:23:27.040 Academics careers were destroyed whenever they found something counter to that, 1:23:28.080 --> 1:23:33.680 and so you have this whole um uncovered history, this 1:23:33.800 --> 1:23:35.760 provenance of America that may go back a lot, a 1:23:35.800 --> 1:23:40.920 lot longer than what most people are comfortable with. When 1:23:40.960 --> 1:23:45.680 I started, when I first started dabbling in anthropology, just 1:23:45.760 --> 1:23:49.519 like reading academic works, there was it was right around 1:23:49.720 --> 1:23:54.519 when the Clovis First idea was falling apart, and there 1:23:54.560 --> 1:23:57.600 were still people that held onto it, you know. But 1:23:57.720 --> 1:23:59.400 that was kind of like that. That was a debate 1:23:59.520 --> 1:24:02.240 that was half ring back then. But to get back 1:24:02.280 --> 1:24:04.320 to we're supposed to get you, is there is there 1:24:04.360 --> 1:24:08.160 a metaphor to be found in the Giant people? Like 1:24:08.439 --> 1:24:11.200 what do you think that that meant? And I think 1:24:11.240 --> 1:24:16.080 that they were giants, um they were a competing race 1:24:16.439 --> 1:24:21.080 from our stories that Earthmaker made before us, and they 1:24:21.200 --> 1:24:29.080 became they lacked humility and they were too pompous and 1:24:29.160 --> 1:24:33.759 then ultimately depending upon the stories, but there's an incredible 1:24:33.800 --> 1:24:40.040 place right outside of Omaha. The Skeety people to Panties 1:24:40.080 --> 1:24:44.040 and the rickers. Then it changes a little bit based 1:24:44.080 --> 1:24:46.760 on the dialect, but Paul Hook is what it's called, 1:24:46.800 --> 1:24:50.439 and it was the origin place for the Skiti people, 1:24:51.640 --> 1:24:56.639 and there was a number of the Council of the Animals. 1:24:56.760 --> 1:24:59.280 Out of the five sacred sites, only one of them 1:24:59.560 --> 1:25:03.240 is left, and that's Paw Hook. And from it it 1:25:03.360 --> 1:25:07.680 was said that back in the time of giants and sacrifice, 1:25:07.880 --> 1:25:10.720 that was a very important place. And ultimately that's where 1:25:10.920 --> 1:25:14.040 Earthmaker Creator decided to flood the earth to get rid 1:25:14.080 --> 1:25:17.040 of the giants, and he bade all of the human 1:25:17.120 --> 1:25:19.720 beings and the smaller animals to go underneath into the 1:25:19.840 --> 1:25:24.120 Council of the Animals, and therefore they wrote out the flood, 1:25:24.360 --> 1:25:29.439 and then they were led by yellow buffalo woman and 1:25:29.560 --> 1:25:32.439 they came back at and emerged there. So that became 1:25:33.520 --> 1:25:36.519 a very central place for a lot of the Plains people. 1:25:36.840 --> 1:25:39.759 They survived the flood, survived the flood by going underneath 1:25:39.840 --> 1:25:41.479 the ground. And you have a lot of those types 1:25:41.520 --> 1:25:44.400 of stories. Kaya was half those stories. There's biblical reference. 1:25:44.439 --> 1:25:48.519 The giants to the Anach and Genesis. Yeah, so that 1:25:48.640 --> 1:25:50.280 that's a theme, but not the kind of giant that 1:25:50.320 --> 1:25:53.519 Goliath was. Glass is the huge dude, wasn't he He 1:25:53.680 --> 1:25:57.000 was a giant? Yeah? He am and I they weren't 1:25:57.040 --> 1:25:58.960 all big he Yeah, he was a little bit of 1:25:59.080 --> 1:26:03.320 a of a phenomen amongst its people. But I mean, 1:26:03.360 --> 1:26:05.439 I don't think they were all giants where they mean, 1:26:05.680 --> 1:26:09.439 but that that was the land of Canaan. Yeah. Is 1:26:09.479 --> 1:26:12.680 there any do you think there's any chance that um, 1:26:14.880 --> 1:26:25.080 that there could be cultural memory of um they would survive, 1:26:25.200 --> 1:26:30.880 like how many Neanderthal and years cultural memory that could 1:26:30.920 --> 1:26:37.559 survive long enough to recollect interaction with Neanderthals. It's an 1:26:37.600 --> 1:26:41.360 excellent question. But we find that legacy in our art, 1:26:41.600 --> 1:26:44.120 the use of red ochre can be tied back to 1:26:44.360 --> 1:26:49.760 the Neanderthals. And one of the hypotheses is who were 1:26:49.800 --> 1:26:56.280 the Denisovans? Were they some remnant of this giant race? 1:26:57.280 --> 1:26:59.920 We don't know, because that's different within my DNA than 1:27:00.080 --> 1:27:03.680 everyone else here. So what was that? I do know 1:27:03.880 --> 1:27:08.639 that there are some anthropological markers that make indigenous people's different, 1:27:08.680 --> 1:27:10.360 one of which is our teeth. And that's why I 1:27:10.439 --> 1:27:13.240 was so important about what was found in those caves 1:27:13.280 --> 1:27:17.720 in Siberia. But we have different types of teeth. The 1:27:17.760 --> 1:27:20.040 main thing is we have shovel shaped incisors, which is 1:27:20.160 --> 1:27:25.160 the only dominant genetic trait. But on the back side 1:27:25.240 --> 1:27:30.800 of front teeth or scooped um, we have the moo 1:27:31.160 --> 1:27:36.280 Mongolian spot that comes out of Asia, and I brought 1:27:36.320 --> 1:27:40.400 all my DNA stuffs the Mongolian spot. It's a little 1:27:40.479 --> 1:27:43.240 blue spot on the behind of babies and sometimes on 1:27:43.520 --> 1:27:47.639 the back or the stomach, and it's just a genetic 1:27:47.760 --> 1:27:51.920 marker we don't know and it fades and its m 1:27:52.760 --> 1:27:58.360 But we do have different DNA. We have different mitochondrial 1:27:58.479 --> 1:28:01.040 DNA as well. So the stuff that I when I 1:28:01.080 --> 1:28:04.200 originally got into the DNA stuff, when I was doing 1:28:04.240 --> 1:28:06.280 all my all my research for the book, was really 1:28:06.320 --> 1:28:09.880 trying to understand are we different and national geographic who 1:28:09.880 --> 1:28:11.439 seems to be a central player and all this. Have 1:28:11.479 --> 1:28:14.120 done an incredible job of trying to understand some of 1:28:14.160 --> 1:28:17.080 this ancient past and from the DNA perspective. They started 1:28:17.120 --> 1:28:21.160 this project called genomic which was trying to isolate the 1:28:21.240 --> 1:28:24.439 fact that we have different haplo groups for our mitochondrial DNA, 1:28:25.320 --> 1:28:27.240 So I have some of those markers that would be 1:28:27.360 --> 1:28:30.760 the dominant European ones. But then we have this motochondrial 1:28:30.920 --> 1:28:34.320 DNA that's very very different from others. What when you 1:28:34.439 --> 1:28:39.080 did so when you did a DNA test or what? What? What? 1:28:39.200 --> 1:28:42.200 What are the services have you done? I did the 1:28:43.200 --> 1:28:46.880 genomic project and then more recently, I think I did 1:28:46.960 --> 1:28:50.880 the ancestry one. So the genomic project was you were 1:28:50.880 --> 1:28:53.880 actually involved in research project? Yeah? I mean my my 1:28:54.000 --> 1:28:55.640 DNA was a part of that study. That's why I 1:28:55.680 --> 1:28:57.920 signed up for it. I see, So what can you 1:29:00.360 --> 1:29:03.400 What did it tell you about you? Um? One, that 1:29:03.520 --> 1:29:07.640 I had similar part of Neanderthal, which is probably my 1:29:08.080 --> 1:29:10.680 Irish heritage. Maybe some of the French or German I 1:29:10.760 --> 1:29:14.880 have in there as well. Um. But it also shows 1:29:15.000 --> 1:29:20.160 that I've got I've got to pointe of Neanderthal and 1:29:20.280 --> 1:29:24.599 one point seven DENI SOBN but probably most evidence through 1:29:24.880 --> 1:29:28.800 teeth and other other common amongst Native Americans and s 1:29:29.120 --> 1:29:36.680 is jealous? Are the percentages again two point three? You 1:29:36.760 --> 1:29:41.920 think that you have more Neanderthal? Remember told me I 1:29:41.960 --> 1:29:45.800 was a little light on Neanderthal man, But it goes 1:29:45.840 --> 1:29:51.280 back to your lighter average. I mean these. I guess 1:29:51.360 --> 1:29:54.760 it's natural within human beings to feel like one type 1:29:54.800 --> 1:29:57.280 of hominid is superior to the others. But I think 1:29:57.320 --> 1:29:59.120 it goes back to that core value that we have 1:29:59.800 --> 1:30:03.280 a indigenous people that were all related. So whether it's 1:30:03.920 --> 1:30:08.880 Homo sapien, Homo sapien, or Neanderthal or Dennis Ovan, all 1:30:09.040 --> 1:30:13.040 part of humanity as we now know it. But when 1:30:13.120 --> 1:30:16.479 you okay, has there is there enough information out there 1:30:16.520 --> 1:30:21.400 that you can get into Like my understanding when they 1:30:21.400 --> 1:30:23.519 do these projects is it kind of depends on how 1:30:23.640 --> 1:30:26.240 many samples are taken. So there's some spots on the 1:30:26.320 --> 1:30:29.679 planet that there just hasn't been enough people. They haven't 1:30:29.680 --> 1:30:32.760 done their genomes, haven't done their genetics, and so some 1:30:32.960 --> 1:30:36.679 spots are hazy. Some spots like what like Western Europe 1:30:37.520 --> 1:30:39.680 um a lot of participants, a lot of people have 1:30:39.760 --> 1:30:41.880 done it. You start getting these really detailed pictures, but 1:30:41.920 --> 1:30:45.320 you talk to people who um whose ancestors came from Asia, 1:30:45.360 --> 1:30:47.479 and it's like not as satisfying when you when you 1:30:47.560 --> 1:30:49.240 do it there because it's not filled in in a 1:30:49.360 --> 1:30:51.840 detailed sense, and you'll be told like, oh, you're kind 1:30:51.840 --> 1:30:56.120 of generally asian um. When you what with yours. Are 1:30:56.160 --> 1:30:58.960 they like, where is that at now? Are they able 1:30:58.960 --> 1:31:03.040 to talk about region within what's now the United States? 1:31:03.200 --> 1:31:04.880 I don't think it's going to ever be able to 1:31:04.960 --> 1:31:08.200 get that granular, because tribe is a fluid thing, you know. 1:31:08.880 --> 1:31:11.000 But I was really surprised. I mean, I know that 1:31:11.080 --> 1:31:16.320 I'm majority Native American, but the formal test, both of 1:31:16.360 --> 1:31:20.880 them came out around the same percentage um. But what 1:31:20.960 --> 1:31:23.120 I was surprised at was based off one of the 1:31:23.160 --> 1:31:27.880 tests that there was a lot more Peruvian bloodlines, and 1:31:28.840 --> 1:31:34.880 in both tests was consistent percentage of descendency from the 1:31:34.960 --> 1:31:41.680 I knew of Japan, the indigenous people's Japan, Chinese for sure, Peruvian. 1:31:42.680 --> 1:31:45.680 And the other one that was a big curveball was 1:31:46.200 --> 1:31:49.960 the nearly quarter percent that said I was Russian and 1:31:50.040 --> 1:31:52.679 then I was related to toll story. Can you track back? 1:31:53.400 --> 1:32:00.560 Can you track back? You're encouraging as a writer, so 1:32:00.640 --> 1:32:03.720 that's where I got there. You track back in your 1:32:03.800 --> 1:32:06.240 history where some of the stuff comes from. I mean, like, 1:32:06.280 --> 1:32:08.720 could you say, like my great grandfather was like a 1:32:08.840 --> 1:32:11.960 Caucasian guy. I mean, I I finally found people who 1:32:12.040 --> 1:32:14.559 know more a lot, but like your mother and father 1:32:14.680 --> 1:32:17.600 were members of the tribe. I mean, I mean, I 1:32:17.840 --> 1:32:23.160 can go back, you know, fourteen seventeen generations on almost 1:32:24.120 --> 1:32:26.840 both sides, but you're and there's nothing along those lines. 1:32:26.880 --> 1:32:29.000 But what when I finally did talk to somebody who 1:32:29.080 --> 1:32:31.000 knew what they were talking about a lot more than 1:32:31.080 --> 1:32:34.599 I did. Was probably had to do with this mixing 1:32:34.680 --> 1:32:39.840 of Siberian and Eurasian bloodlines. And I went back and 1:32:39.960 --> 1:32:42.440 forth for a time before they came over to Siberian. 1:32:42.840 --> 1:32:45.080 Arguably some of them maybe even came back. And oh 1:32:45.200 --> 1:32:48.719 so you don't think that was that was anything recent, 1:32:48.920 --> 1:32:53.720 like in the last couple of years. Yeah stuff, Yeah, 1:32:53.840 --> 1:32:56.840 oh wow, Okay, can I make a correction real quick? 1:32:57.320 --> 1:33:03.480 I said, anac in Genesis is Nephilim. Nephilim where the Yeah, yeah, irrelevant, 1:33:03.520 --> 1:33:06.400 But I just had to clear that uppilum. And I've 1:33:06.439 --> 1:33:10.600 been fascinated with all of you know, the understanding of 1:33:10.920 --> 1:33:14.200 what happened in Messo America, what happened in South America. 1:33:14.880 --> 1:33:22.880 I've been really enjoy reading about those British explorers who 1:33:22.920 --> 1:33:25.360 finally went down to South American and tried to find 1:33:25.479 --> 1:33:29.960 the Lost City of z Colonel Faucett. It's a fascinating story, 1:33:30.320 --> 1:33:35.080 but behalfs of the Royal Geographic Society. He went down 1:33:35.200 --> 1:33:37.600 in the early dred and began to explore in his 1:33:37.720 --> 1:33:41.760 hypothesis was there was the lost city of Zad, which 1:33:41.960 --> 1:33:46.200 was a complex society in South America. Charles Man in 1:33:46.280 --> 1:33:50.840 his book he talks a lot about um terra Pretta 1:33:50.920 --> 1:33:55.080 and some of the agricultural practices and involving the use 1:33:55.160 --> 1:33:58.640 of biochar and how to take very alkaline soils and 1:33:58.720 --> 1:34:01.519 turn them into you know, productive things. And these are 1:34:01.560 --> 1:34:10.479 ancient but much many years after pots disappearance into the Amazon, 1:34:11.040 --> 1:34:12.639 no one knows every what happened to him. That many 1:34:12.680 --> 1:34:15.120 people try to go and find out through the use 1:34:15.200 --> 1:34:18.680 of technology. We've we're finding all these ancient cities now 1:34:19.600 --> 1:34:23.439 and more and more evidence that population numbers were a 1:34:23.520 --> 1:34:27.040 lot bigger. But that's the first point in having any 1:34:27.080 --> 1:34:33.240 of these conversations about ancient America is how many people, 1:34:33.800 --> 1:34:37.160 how many bison, etcetera. All tho has become really interesting topics. 1:34:38.080 --> 1:34:41.760 But what happened to them? Why did they leave or disappear? 1:34:42.520 --> 1:34:46.280 What was the role of disease in genocide? How much 1:34:46.280 --> 1:34:49.080 of it was purposeful? I think all those things are 1:34:49.120 --> 1:34:51.800 important for people that understand so that the very least 1:34:51.840 --> 1:34:56.880 we don't repeat those bad portions of history. Tribal people's 1:34:56.920 --> 1:35:01.160 have them a prophecy. It's primarily in the plains, but 1:35:01.240 --> 1:35:03.160 it's all around. That has to do with the seventh 1:35:04.479 --> 1:35:09.479 generation prophecy. And ultimately you can look to sad symbolic 1:35:09.600 --> 1:35:13.120 events in history, such as the original Battle of Wounded Knee, 1:35:13.680 --> 1:35:19.719 which was putting down of very powerful um the Ghost 1:35:19.800 --> 1:35:26.240 Dance religion and in its profit well voca up around 1:35:26.439 --> 1:35:30.400 up around Pine Ridge there and I believe it's in 1:35:30.439 --> 1:35:34.920 the eighteen seventies, but it is such a horrific event 1:35:35.439 --> 1:35:39.240 that many viewed it as the breaking of the great 1:35:39.280 --> 1:35:42.639 sacred hoop of the Suian people's And at that point 1:35:42.720 --> 1:35:46.960 it was said that that was the beginning of very 1:35:47.160 --> 1:35:51.000 tough time for indigenous peoples, that for six generations we 1:35:51.040 --> 1:35:54.560 would suffer greatly, and Lord knows we've suffered, and that 1:35:54.680 --> 1:35:57.679 with the markings then, um, I think you wrote about 1:35:57.720 --> 1:36:00.719 this something too, stories about white buff low calf woman, 1:36:00.760 --> 1:36:06.519 that that she would return, and so we had those 1:36:06.600 --> 1:36:14.720 markings and actuality in the physical man manifestation of white 1:36:14.760 --> 1:36:16.920 buffalo calfs. So we had the first one in two 1:36:17.000 --> 1:36:20.120 thousand one, and by two thousand and seven there were 1:36:20.160 --> 1:36:22.280 four of them, and that means that that was the 1:36:22.360 --> 1:36:25.840 time for the return of the seventh generation. I had 1:36:25.880 --> 1:36:30.160 actually been right in a scholarly paper with a legal 1:36:30.200 --> 1:36:34.120 scholar who also happened to be a the coach to spiritualist, 1:36:34.200 --> 1:36:35.680 and she's the one who explained it to me at 1:36:35.680 --> 1:36:39.679 the time. But with the coming of the fourth White 1:36:39.720 --> 1:36:43.360 Buffalo Calftain, all of the children born after that would 1:36:43.400 --> 1:36:47.360 be of the seventh generation. So for those tribal people's 1:36:48.000 --> 1:36:50.160 that generation would be the ones that would lead them 1:36:50.200 --> 1:36:53.080 to those nations to stand tall again and be and 1:36:53.200 --> 1:36:58.520 be proud. For all those children that are non Indigenous 1:36:58.720 --> 1:37:01.200 that were born after that time, ram they're there also 1:37:01.320 --> 1:37:05.320 part of the seven generation, and as non Indigenous, they're 1:37:05.360 --> 1:37:08.759 going to be the population that's finally ready for our knowledge. 1:37:09.360 --> 1:37:13.840 And it was pointed out to me that I was 1:37:13.880 --> 1:37:15.719 a part of the sixth generation, that I was supposed 1:37:15.720 --> 1:37:17.960 to be a teacher and then I didn't know all 1:37:18.040 --> 1:37:21.120 my stories and she was right. So that began that 1:37:21.240 --> 1:37:25.639 joint that journey for me from going from um general 1:37:25.680 --> 1:37:28.800 person in Corporate America trying to find out who am 1:37:28.840 --> 1:37:31.160 I where do I come from, so then when it 1:37:31.240 --> 1:37:34.320 comes time, I can tell these stories and the hopes 1:37:34.400 --> 1:37:37.120 that it's gonna make the world a better place. Can 1:37:37.200 --> 1:37:41.800 you explain to people the uh, the Goal's dancers, because 1:37:41.800 --> 1:37:45.000 there there was two. There was kind of like two 1:37:45.040 --> 1:37:50.200 occurrences where someone tried to unite UM. What was the 1:37:50.280 --> 1:37:54.720 one like related to the you know he was he 1:37:54.840 --> 1:37:58.040 was from Indiana, right, clumsy, Right, there's yeah, there's two 1:37:58.200 --> 1:38:01.679 two separate stories. He well, like a person a sort 1:38:01.720 --> 1:38:05.479 of profit that wanted to unite people that would try 1:38:05.560 --> 1:38:11.640 to like patch up and inform an allegiance of confederacy 1:38:11.760 --> 1:38:18.280 to to fight. And then the ghost dance profit or 1:38:18.800 --> 1:38:21.519 teacher or whatever profit he was similar to he was 1:38:21.600 --> 1:38:24.760 trying to he was he was trying to communicate with 1:38:24.960 --> 1:38:28.000 the like with a bunch of historical enemies to bring 1:38:28.160 --> 1:38:32.360 to buying them together. It was derivation out of the 1:38:33.640 --> 1:38:42.720 potawatam Um Dreaming Dance Society and UM. Ultimately he had 1:38:42.800 --> 1:38:51.200 these visions where UM the followers could, through dance and song, 1:38:51.400 --> 1:38:54.679 could put themselves into a mental state where they could 1:38:55.360 --> 1:38:59.360 see the other side. And it was their hope that Um, 1:39:00.520 --> 1:39:05.759 despite what had happened with the loss of the bison 1:39:05.880 --> 1:39:09.760 and our and our traditional life ways, that the old 1:39:09.840 --> 1:39:12.400 world would come back, and that's what they were they 1:39:12.439 --> 1:39:14.559 were seeking. Of course, it was seen by the United 1:39:14.560 --> 1:39:19.960 States Militarius insurrection and they were summarily attacked and killed 1:39:20.200 --> 1:39:22.760 up at Wounded Knee and the prophet was killed at 1:39:22.800 --> 1:39:26.840 that point. What was the second Like, when did the 1:39:26.920 --> 1:39:29.720 second Wounded Knee massacre? That was the eighteen nineties, right, No, 1:39:30.000 --> 1:39:32.479 that was in in the nineteen seventies. That had to 1:39:32.560 --> 1:39:36.040 do with the Red Power movement and the American Indian Movement. 1:39:36.479 --> 1:39:39.160 Oh no, no, okay, almost, I know. I thought that 1:39:39.240 --> 1:39:42.680 there was like two Wounded Knee things in close proximity, 1:39:43.520 --> 1:39:46.080 not that I'm aware of. The first one was pretty 1:39:46.120 --> 1:39:52.479 brutal and tribes didn't respond back from that till many 1:39:52.560 --> 1:39:55.880 many years later, and then wounded He became a became 1:39:55.920 --> 1:39:58.639 a focal point in the seventies, Yes, of the American 1:39:58.680 --> 1:40:06.680 Indian Movement. That's after they became militant, for sure. One 1:40:06.760 --> 1:40:08.479 other questions, Oh yeah, no, no, we covered off a 1:40:08.600 --> 1:40:10.720 big foot. No we didn't. You hadn't heard him talk 1:40:10.760 --> 1:40:13.839 about bigfoot yet. I don't think he's a big foot enthusiast, 1:40:14.400 --> 1:40:17.960 a big foot. No, he has something to say. I'll 1:40:18.000 --> 1:40:21.639 tell you nasty, because Bigfoot is not an American icon. 1:40:21.760 --> 1:40:26.000 It's a tribal icon. All the tribes we have Bigfoot, 1:40:26.920 --> 1:40:34.040 the omahas um Hinska Bay. It means the hairy race 1:40:34.280 --> 1:40:38.240 of people. Really all the tribes, many of the tribes, 1:40:38.320 --> 1:40:41.200 especially up in the Pacific Northwest. I mean it's it 1:40:41.400 --> 1:40:45.880 is a spiritual part of their formation. Um. They some 1:40:46.000 --> 1:40:49.520 of the clans up there are even responsible for protecting 1:40:49.720 --> 1:40:54.599 the anonymity and the sacredness of them. That has become 1:40:54.680 --> 1:40:58.240 something out of American popular lore. But that's what, that's what. 1:40:58.640 --> 1:41:00.920 That's what he said. That helped because we were walking 1:41:00.960 --> 1:41:02.679 up here, he said, what do you think about Bigfoot? 1:41:03.760 --> 1:41:06.479 And and he told me, he said, Bigfoot is not 1:41:07.160 --> 1:41:11.360 doesn't belong to America. I mean, you know America as 1:41:11.439 --> 1:41:15.320 in like white European culture that dominates America. He said, 1:41:15.360 --> 1:41:18.559 it belongs to the tribes. And then he I don't 1:41:18.560 --> 1:41:20.400 want to take your I don't want to tell what 1:41:20.520 --> 1:41:24.320 you're going to say about that he's a spirit being. 1:41:24.360 --> 1:41:27.639 But I just did. Many of our of our stories 1:41:27.840 --> 1:41:32.160 say that there's a relationship between them and the sky people, 1:41:33.760 --> 1:41:38.559 and so Um, perhaps they can move between different planes 1:41:38.640 --> 1:41:41.479 of existence. I mean, who were we to say what 1:41:41.720 --> 1:41:44.040 is real and what's not, what's happening in the spirit 1:41:44.160 --> 1:41:47.000 world and what's happening here. Many say that they move 1:41:47.120 --> 1:41:52.040 in between those those those realms. That's been adopted. That 1:41:52.320 --> 1:41:59.880 attribute has been also adopted by bigfoot researchers to explain 1:42:00.040 --> 1:42:06.360 why you cannot catch them on a trail camera because 1:42:06.360 --> 1:42:09.479 they they they like, move out of they move into 1:42:09.520 --> 1:42:14.960 the ethereal realm and can't be photographed. Do you believe 1:42:15.000 --> 1:42:19.800 Steve No, Mitch Edward, the comedian mit Chedward, thinks they're 1:42:19.840 --> 1:42:25.800 just blurry and it's not the photographer's fault. I think 1:42:25.800 --> 1:42:28.439 it's a barrel two legs. See what I what what 1:42:28.560 --> 1:42:31.640 I don't? I don't know to me what what he 1:42:31.920 --> 1:42:35.439 told me gave me. I mean, it just gave me 1:42:35.520 --> 1:42:39.680 another perspective that that explains this. And I knew that 1:42:40.000 --> 1:42:45.920 that bigfoot would have been connected to Indigenous Americans, but 1:42:46.080 --> 1:42:48.040 I guess I didn't know realized that it was something 1:42:48.280 --> 1:42:52.200 sacred and that it was something that's really valued. You know, 1:42:52.600 --> 1:42:56.519 that's kind of been you know, hijacked in a way 1:42:57.000 --> 1:42:59.400 because I told him, I said, no, I don't believe. Well, 1:42:59.479 --> 1:43:01.200 this is before a story. I said, No, I don't 1:43:01.200 --> 1:43:03.759 believe in bigfoot. I think people are seeing bipedal bears 1:43:03.800 --> 1:43:05.680 that have had wounded front feet and are walking on 1:43:05.720 --> 1:43:08.559 their back legs, which we know for a fact happens. 1:43:08.720 --> 1:43:12.800 That happens, for sure happens. But no, it just expanded 1:43:13.080 --> 1:43:16.720 this idea because I mean, the bigfoot or the the 1:43:16.960 --> 1:43:24.280 hairy hominid like bipedal lore goes so deep. I mean, 1:43:24.360 --> 1:43:26.960 it's bizarre how deep it goes. I mean, we were 1:43:26.960 --> 1:43:29.360 talking about the co Yukon. The co Yukon have a 1:43:30.240 --> 1:43:34.840 very distinct bigfoot like character that is up in Alaska. 1:43:35.080 --> 1:43:39.240 Every tribe does. Yeah, and we're all complex and deep 1:43:39.320 --> 1:43:44.320 and rich. So I know in southeast Alaska some of 1:43:44.360 --> 1:43:49.720 the groups have a there's an otterman, which Hida and 1:43:49.800 --> 1:43:54.040 Simpscian people have mentioned to me. M. The co Yukon 1:43:54.160 --> 1:43:58.760 have the woodsman. They call him woodsman, kind of a wilding, right, yeah, 1:43:58.800 --> 1:44:01.160 and it's not exactly a bigfoot, but that's kind of 1:44:01.200 --> 1:44:03.640 how they treated it. And they said they were supernatural. 1:44:03.760 --> 1:44:07.120 They could move in and out of you know, being 1:44:07.160 --> 1:44:09.160 able to be seen and whatnot. But they were almost 1:44:09.200 --> 1:44:12.000 like a feral human that was real, Harry. And then 1:44:12.080 --> 1:44:15.320 of course you have the counterpart to the giants. We 1:44:15.439 --> 1:44:21.040 all have stories of little people as well, and there 1:44:22.840 --> 1:44:24.960 very powerful race and they move in and out of 1:44:25.080 --> 1:44:29.120 this existence. The story that I always like to tell 1:44:29.200 --> 1:44:34.639 about it I'm I'm I'm a descendant of Baptist Dorian. 1:44:34.840 --> 1:44:37.240 That's the French part of my Omaha bloodlines. And he 1:44:37.439 --> 1:44:41.200 was an interpreter for Lewis and Clark. And whenever Lewis 1:44:41.240 --> 1:44:45.479 and Clark met with the Iway and the Otto at 1:44:45.840 --> 1:44:48.920 what is now Council Bluffs, Iowa, which is where I live, 1:44:49.960 --> 1:44:52.120 h the Omahas were not present because they were on 1:44:52.600 --> 1:44:58.640 bison hunt. But eventually some of the translators and explorers 1:44:58.720 --> 1:45:00.560 went along, and my ancestra was a part of it. 1:45:00.680 --> 1:45:05.120 And they got up near Vermillion, South Dakota, and Lewis 1:45:05.160 --> 1:45:09.519 and Clark wanted to dispatch all of the all of 1:45:09.560 --> 1:45:14.320 the tribal representatives to go and to explore um. This 1:45:14.640 --> 1:45:18.680 um they basically a rock mounted spirit lake, and the 1:45:18.760 --> 1:45:22.320 Omahas dug in their heels and said, uh, we ain't going. 1:45:23.120 --> 1:45:25.840 And they asked him why, and they said, because we 1:45:25.920 --> 1:45:29.599 have a story. Uh. There were a number of our warriors. 1:45:29.640 --> 1:45:32.320 There were three hundred of them that were on a 1:45:34.400 --> 1:45:42.080 horse rating trip, which was not honorable, and on their 1:45:42.520 --> 1:45:48.240 return going past uh the rock edifice they're at Spirit Lake, 1:45:48.880 --> 1:45:50.880 that the little people came out and attacked them and 1:45:50.960 --> 1:45:55.559 killed over half of them. And so our stories about 1:45:55.600 --> 1:45:59.720 giants and little people. All the tribes have stories like that. 1:45:59.840 --> 1:46:02.680 I only know the ones that I've been told, but 1:46:03.360 --> 1:46:06.519 they go so far back into our history that there 1:46:06.560 --> 1:46:08.920 has to be something to them. But I mean, there's 1:46:08.960 --> 1:46:13.479 there's there's parallels with the Gaelic cultures and little people, etcetera. 1:46:15.120 --> 1:46:19.720 The mound builders. You find very strong similarities between the 1:46:20.720 --> 1:46:24.800 carnes and rock mounds of northern Europe and what you 1:46:24.840 --> 1:46:27.439 see in the Mississippian plane as well. So for me, 1:46:27.520 --> 1:46:29.439 it's just a lot of questions back to that whole 1:46:29.520 --> 1:46:33.200 tenant of we're all related, but how did all these 1:46:33.240 --> 1:46:36.960 things rise around the same time and then and then collapse? 1:46:37.439 --> 1:46:38.840 You know? I think when I when I hear you 1:46:38.960 --> 1:46:42.960 talk this kind of a broad general statement about here 1:46:43.000 --> 1:46:47.400 and you talk, is that we so bad want to 1:46:47.520 --> 1:46:52.320 be able to explain everything that we know, and in science, 1:46:53.400 --> 1:46:58.640 science is by very essence only able to discern, to 1:46:58.960 --> 1:47:03.639 understand what is physically observable. I mean, that's the definition 1:47:03.720 --> 1:47:07.360 of science. Like science does not delve into, you know, 1:47:08.320 --> 1:47:12.960 things that are metaphysical. And and what I like about 1:47:13.280 --> 1:47:16.840 hearing some of these, like ancient deep time stories of 1:47:17.120 --> 1:47:20.880 indigenous people is that we really like to think that 1:47:21.040 --> 1:47:24.439 we know everything and we just don't. I mean, I 1:47:24.680 --> 1:47:27.959 did an interview with one of the top wildlife biologists 1:47:28.000 --> 1:47:31.240 in the country that deals with with white oak trees 1:47:31.320 --> 1:47:36.120 and acorns, and he when I started drilling down questions 1:47:36.120 --> 1:47:39.120 about white oak trees, like he was like, Clay, you 1:47:39.160 --> 1:47:41.240 don't have to dig very far to you realize science 1:47:41.439 --> 1:47:44.360 does not know all the answers, even about something so 1:47:44.640 --> 1:47:49.080 simple and not that seemingly important. And just as I 1:47:49.160 --> 1:47:53.240 hear you talk about even qualms about how long humans 1:47:53.280 --> 1:47:57.080 have been in North America, and you know, are are 1:47:57.760 --> 1:48:00.800 the archaeology we know? You know, says X, you know 1:48:01.040 --> 1:48:04.040 we've been here this long. But and that's just the 1:48:04.160 --> 1:48:07.960 best that we've got. But your stories say that it 1:48:08.040 --> 1:48:12.240 goes way back further than that. And uh, and I 1:48:12.439 --> 1:48:15.479 just feel like we really don't know, and it's okay 1:48:15.560 --> 1:48:17.400 for us to say we don't know, and it's okay 1:48:17.479 --> 1:48:20.320 for us to say that the measurements of science do 1:48:20.479 --> 1:48:33.439 have limitations. Just back to the field of anthropology and 1:48:33.560 --> 1:48:37.800 its separation from folklore, because that was the scientific part 1:48:37.840 --> 1:48:40.320 of anthropology, which says we have to have physical evidence 1:48:40.360 --> 1:48:45.000 for everything, and it ignored folklore and it was only 1:48:45.080 --> 1:48:47.200 until the last ten years or so. That was one 1:48:47.240 --> 1:48:49.880 of the works that really inspired me to start my 1:48:50.000 --> 1:48:55.240 book was reading Tim poc Tat's work on on kah Kia, 1:48:55.880 --> 1:48:58.400 and he was the first mainstream anthropologist to bust out 1:48:58.439 --> 1:49:00.880 of the mold and say, hey, we need to we 1:49:00.960 --> 1:49:03.000 need to look at that tribal stories here to help 1:49:03.600 --> 1:49:05.680 figure out and that's that's how we come up with 1:49:05.760 --> 1:49:10.120 the stories of ostracizing people that have spoken against it. 1:49:10.439 --> 1:49:13.360 You can look back a thousand years and find that, right. 1:49:13.760 --> 1:49:18.360 So ye, stories for everything. Still, let me ask you 1:49:18.439 --> 1:49:22.080 how something. We've had this debate on and off over 1:49:22.160 --> 1:49:24.160 the years, and I just like to get perspective on it. 1:49:25.280 --> 1:49:28.640 Many of the earth mounds have been ransacked, Okay, Like 1:49:28.840 --> 1:49:30.679 you have a term like pot hunters, right, so people 1:49:30.720 --> 1:49:34.120 that would just go dig up caves, dig up um. 1:49:34.760 --> 1:49:37.880 It starts with arrowheads. Yeah, Well that's why I'm going 1:49:38.280 --> 1:49:40.880 so people would dig up caves, people would dig up 1:49:40.880 --> 1:49:44.360 effigy mounds, people dig up cities, haul off the stuff 1:49:44.360 --> 1:49:46.799 that they thought was a value and and and destroy 1:49:46.920 --> 1:49:57.640 it from an archaeological perspective, and then desecrated from religious perspective. Say, uh, 1:49:58.880 --> 1:50:03.519 let's put that at it an extreme, Okay. At the 1:50:03.560 --> 1:50:07.720 other end is you're out till in the field and 1:50:08.120 --> 1:50:12.320 up pops a broken arrowhead. Okay, and you put that 1:50:12.439 --> 1:50:15.719 arrowhead in your pocket because you're thinking until this field 1:50:15.720 --> 1:50:20.080 all the time. I just kicked it up my field. Yeah. 1:50:20.880 --> 1:50:26.760 So two questions for you, Um, what's your take on that, 1:50:27.160 --> 1:50:30.559 on that impulse? And then I want you to judge 1:50:30.640 --> 1:50:36.240 that impulse. Well, there's two different kinds of people in 1:50:36.280 --> 1:50:38.839 the world, right, There's people who want to lump everybody 1:50:38.840 --> 1:50:48.040 into two groups right right. The the the analogy that 1:50:48.120 --> 1:50:51.960 I thought was interesting at this at this point was, Um, 1:50:52.400 --> 1:50:55.240 if we all walked up and found a wallet and 1:50:55.320 --> 1:50:57.720 there was money in it, half of us are going 1:50:57.760 --> 1:51:00.040 to take it and give it to someone to of 1:51:00.120 --> 1:51:02.840 it back, right. The other half's gonna take take the 1:51:02.920 --> 1:51:07.360 money pocketed and to the wallet. Yeah, that's probably all right. 1:51:09.000 --> 1:51:12.960 So I think I think the same thing, right, But 1:51:13.200 --> 1:51:16.320 it goes to how we think about objects that we 1:51:16.360 --> 1:51:21.160 don't understand. Arrowheads would be one of those. On the 1:51:21.920 --> 1:51:25.760 one end of the extreme is you know people loved 1:51:25.960 --> 1:51:30.200 to collect arrowheads, Um, my dad did. I've got his 1:51:30.280 --> 1:51:33.559 collection and at home, your father did that. My dad did, 1:51:34.600 --> 1:51:38.519 and he loved it, and he like he actively hunted arrowheads. 1:51:38.640 --> 1:51:40.120 He did, and he gave them, gave them to me. 1:51:41.160 --> 1:51:44.240 And so I understand that. At the same time, I 1:51:44.439 --> 1:51:48.960 know that what is in that act? Why is that 1:51:49.080 --> 1:51:55.160 so important? Philosophically? When you're average American is walking somewhere 1:51:55.320 --> 1:51:58.920 and sees this arrowhead, what is it that compels them 1:51:59.240 --> 1:52:00.880 to want to pick it up and to take it 1:52:01.000 --> 1:52:03.880 for their own. Some may admire the beauty and the 1:52:04.040 --> 1:52:08.919 history as it is and was and says that's pretty powerful. 1:52:09.000 --> 1:52:11.280 And maybe if we leave it in the ground, maybe 1:52:11.320 --> 1:52:14.760 this was an important place. Maybe that arrowhead told the 1:52:14.840 --> 1:52:18.439 story of how these people lived. Maybe it explains the 1:52:18.720 --> 1:52:21.719 time period of when that was made. Maybe it's tied 1:52:21.800 --> 1:52:24.479 to an animal that was ancient that this arrow head 1:52:24.520 --> 1:52:27.600 went into. There's so much that could be there. And 1:52:27.640 --> 1:52:31.439 then there's the other perspective, is my land I found it, 1:52:31.960 --> 1:52:36.719 it's mine and perhaps or something will happen to it. Okay, 1:52:37.240 --> 1:52:40.080 been there a long time by itself. That's good point. 1:52:41.640 --> 1:52:44.000 But I think you can't discount the rarity of it. 1:52:44.360 --> 1:52:46.759 And that's what I mean compels a lot of people 1:52:46.880 --> 1:52:51.720 to not leave it because I don't know, I mean, 1:52:52.000 --> 1:52:55.560 did they want it's magic for themselves? Yeah, exactly. I 1:52:55.760 --> 1:52:58.760 was with some I was with some anthropologists who were 1:52:58.800 --> 1:53:03.080 doing work in the npr A, so the National Petroleum 1:53:03.120 --> 1:53:06.240 Reserve Alaska. What they were doing is the head of 1:53:06.240 --> 1:53:09.920 oil exploration, which is probably inevitable. They were trying to 1:53:10.560 --> 1:53:16.280 make a map of cultural sites. Um, because when they do, 1:53:16.920 --> 1:53:19.280 you know, e s a process and all the other 1:53:19.360 --> 1:53:22.519 processes to go on to extract oil. There needs to 1:53:22.560 --> 1:53:25.600 be an accounting of what might be destroyed, and it 1:53:25.640 --> 1:53:28.599 would and the finding of cultural sites would impact where 1:53:28.640 --> 1:53:33.840 you would build roads, put in wellheads, whatnot. Um, you're 1:53:33.880 --> 1:53:35.639 in a place that you can't even it's so far 1:53:35.760 --> 1:53:39.040 out you can't get a helicopter there on a tank 1:53:39.080 --> 1:53:41.720 of gas. You gotta like take a plane and kick 1:53:41.760 --> 1:53:45.200 out barrels of gas and then hop scotch from barrel 1:53:45.240 --> 1:53:48.280 to barrel in a helicopter that's how like remote you are. 1:53:48.880 --> 1:53:52.240 But anyways, there's just stuff laying out. Man, it's been 1:53:52.240 --> 1:53:54.200 sitting there thousands of years, like there's no one around 1:53:54.280 --> 1:53:57.920 to pick it up. Hasn't been And I'm telling you, 1:53:58.080 --> 1:54:01.559 those guys would photograph the actile points and they would 1:54:01.600 --> 1:54:04.160 draw the projectile points and they would stick them back 1:54:04.200 --> 1:54:08.560 in the moss. It was painful for me, painful. I 1:54:08.600 --> 1:54:10.880 would have visions of coming back out and getting them. 1:54:12.400 --> 1:54:15.800 I wanted him so bad. I don't know, man, it's 1:54:15.840 --> 1:54:18.720 just like, because it's so cool, I'd be like, oh, 1:54:19.000 --> 1:54:21.880 like every part of me. I mean, I would go 1:54:22.080 --> 1:54:25.960 and revisit, Like I remember one time at camp, leaving camp, 1:54:26.040 --> 1:54:28.920 walking down, not to take it, but leaving camp, walking down, 1:54:29.040 --> 1:54:32.080 getting it back out of the moss, looking at it 1:54:32.160 --> 1:54:34.160 for a long time, sticking it back in the moss, 1:54:35.520 --> 1:54:39.840 and just like yeah. They'd be like if I don't know, man, 1:54:40.000 --> 1:54:42.800 Like if you put a boxing nerds out on the 1:54:42.840 --> 1:54:45.440 ground and my kids found it, they'd be like, now, 1:54:45.480 --> 1:54:46.760 I'll tell you what I can do with those nerds. 1:54:48.280 --> 1:54:52.600 It's very I can't explain it. Although there are a 1:54:52.680 --> 1:54:55.040 lot of things in the natural world that do connect 1:54:55.120 --> 1:54:58.280 us to you know, way back history. There's very few 1:54:58.360 --> 1:55:01.520 things that are that physical that you can just look 1:55:01.600 --> 1:55:04.680 at and hold and it takes you like, well, way back. 1:55:04.880 --> 1:55:09.520 It's not such a new go ahead. Actually, I want 1:55:09.520 --> 1:55:12.320 to this one thing. It's a lot of things I 1:55:12.360 --> 1:55:14.680 don't understand. I can tell you what it's not. It's 1:55:14.800 --> 1:55:18.760 not meant as an act of disrespect for the person 1:55:18.840 --> 1:55:20.960 to own that thing. For some and I want to 1:55:20.960 --> 1:55:23.200 get the opposite. I think it's a it's a it's 1:55:23.200 --> 1:55:30.800 a thing of like deep reverence curiosity about fascination with 1:55:32.960 --> 1:55:37.480 the person that made that thing. Sure, but if one 1:55:37.600 --> 1:55:40.360 takes that, you lose the context of where it was 1:55:40.520 --> 1:55:43.280 and whatever science might be able to tell us about it. 1:55:43.480 --> 1:55:45.000 I want to bring that's a good point. I want 1:55:45.000 --> 1:55:47.800 to bring up to serious things on this topic. So 1:55:47.920 --> 1:55:51.440 that's on one end of the of the extreme. And 1:55:51.520 --> 1:55:55.000 then you have in the wake of the passing of 1:55:55.080 --> 1:56:02.839 the legislation to protect um try remains and funerary Objects 1:56:02.920 --> 1:56:07.200 known as the Native American Engraves Repatriation Act in the 1:56:07.320 --> 1:56:10.400 ninety nineties, and prior to that, you have the Archaeological 1:56:10.480 --> 1:56:18.240 Resource Protection Act, and you have aberrations of this benign 1:56:18.320 --> 1:56:21.560 mindset about things like arrowheads. And on this other extreme, 1:56:21.720 --> 1:56:25.360 you have this event that happened with the National Park 1:56:25.440 --> 1:56:31.080 Service at Effigy Mounds in Iowa and as the rise 1:56:31.200 --> 1:56:35.880 of Nagpra and State of Iowa also passed an early 1:56:36.000 --> 1:56:41.080 law saying that you know, if if there are skeletal 1:56:41.320 --> 1:56:44.600 remains or funerary objects, and ultimately what became the language 1:56:44.640 --> 1:56:50.200 of Native American Graves and Repatriation Act is anything that 1:56:50.400 --> 1:56:53.960 is sacred needs to be returned back to the people. 1:56:55.360 --> 1:56:57.320 And what happened there was they had a number of 1:56:57.400 --> 1:57:02.920 skeletal remains and the superintendent of the site believe his 1:57:03.040 --> 1:57:10.480 name is Tom Munson, he was so frustrated with the 1:57:10.640 --> 1:57:13.360 potential that these objects would be out of their collection. 1:57:14.400 --> 1:57:19.000 And I believe it was combination of twenty four different 1:57:19.720 --> 1:57:23.440 human remains from different individuals that were on display, that 1:57:23.560 --> 1:57:27.600 were on display at different points, and as this the 1:57:28.240 --> 1:57:31.680 potential risk of this law taking them away from the 1:57:31.720 --> 1:57:36.400 anthropological archaeological collection, he stole them and tucked him to 1:57:36.480 --> 1:57:40.800 his house and then lied about it for years and 1:57:41.040 --> 1:57:44.800 ultimately there had to be an accounting of it. But 1:57:44.960 --> 1:57:47.440 we're talking about skeletal remains. What do you think what 1:57:47.480 --> 1:57:49.960 was going on in his head, Um, I have to 1:57:50.040 --> 1:57:51.600 take this so we don't have to give them back 1:57:51.600 --> 1:57:53.720 to the Indians, and eventually everyone's going to forget and 1:57:53.760 --> 1:57:56.880 then we can have them back. So you have this 1:57:57.120 --> 1:58:04.400 unhealthy relationship between objects that have a tribal provenance and 1:58:04.720 --> 1:58:07.000 what we would like to see happen to them, any 1:58:07.080 --> 1:58:12.200 skeletal remains. There's an exception in the America's because of 1:58:12.400 --> 1:58:15.600 archaeology and anthropology that science came in and says it's 1:58:15.640 --> 1:58:19.960 okay to take Indian bones. There's been numerous examples of 1:58:20.840 --> 1:58:26.800 cemeteries and that were damaged during construction, etcetera. They find 1:58:26.840 --> 1:58:29.440 the white people bones and they bury them properly, and 1:58:29.520 --> 1:58:34.200 the Indian bones go to the state archaeological societies. Ultimately, 1:58:34.560 --> 1:58:40.560 it took enforcement of Nagpra to come in and to 1:58:40.880 --> 1:58:44.720 convict him first keeping and stealing all those all those remains. 1:58:44.800 --> 1:58:49.400 The tribes were very upset about that and there was 1:58:49.440 --> 1:58:53.840 no accountability of it. Even further and more political goes 1:58:53.960 --> 1:59:01.240 to archaeological rich sites like um down in uh outside 1:59:01.240 --> 1:59:06.080 of Blanding, Utah, and there was a raid that there 1:59:06.240 --> 1:59:12.240 was twenty four individuals that were ultimately indicted and in 1:59:12.600 --> 1:59:17.120 between them they had forty thousand objects that they had 1:59:17.280 --> 1:59:20.600 illegally taken out of the ground, some of which had 1:59:20.640 --> 1:59:29.240 provenance to six thousand BC pottery shards, human remains, funerary sandals, etcetera. 1:59:30.120 --> 1:59:33.680 And foremost of those was a doctor by the name 1:59:33.760 --> 1:59:38.960 of James red And Uh. It was certainly viewed as 1:59:39.040 --> 1:59:43.560 an over zealous overreach of the FBI and the Bureau 1:59:43.560 --> 1:59:48.120 of Land Management, but the facts of the case are 1:59:48.280 --> 1:59:51.600 still the same. There was over forty thousand objects that 1:59:51.720 --> 1:59:54.760 were gotten in that sting. The economics of it is 1:59:54.840 --> 1:59:56.960 what is mind boggling to me, because this is the 1:59:57.040 --> 2:00:02.040 serious part about erahads, etcetera. Was of the two d 2:00:02.240 --> 2:00:06.120 forty objects that they found there, they used an informant 2:00:06.960 --> 2:00:11.960 um to try to lure these individuals who are illegally 2:00:12.080 --> 2:00:17.080 trading them and fuelling the black market and Native American objects. UM. 2:00:19.160 --> 2:00:21.920 I think they've spen around three thirty thousand, which averaged 2:00:21.960 --> 2:00:27.880 around forty dollars per object for those two fifty. So 2:00:28.000 --> 2:00:30.280 if we use that as a proxy and run the numbers, 2:00:30.680 --> 2:00:33.480 then that collection which they hauled away from those twenty 2:00:33.520 --> 2:00:37.840 four individuals, UH collection of forty thou would be over 2:00:38.080 --> 2:00:43.160 fifty three million dollars. So this is one subset of 2:00:43.280 --> 2:00:46.600 what happens with the black market trade around Native American objects, 2:00:47.080 --> 2:00:50.640 which have been fetishized beyond the object and the provenance 2:00:51.080 --> 2:00:56.000 into a horrible black market. So why would the individual 2:00:56.080 --> 2:01:00.160 who finds the arrowhead or the pottery shard? I can 2:01:00.160 --> 2:01:02.480 get a hundred bucks for this, And then it goes 2:01:02.560 --> 2:01:07.000 on and on and on, Doctor Red and the informant 2:01:07.240 --> 2:01:12.440 sadly committed suicide rather than face the charges. But one 2:01:12.480 --> 2:01:15.440 of the end the informant killed himself. He did a 2:01:15.600 --> 2:01:18.840 year a year later. And if you look at stories 2:01:18.880 --> 2:01:22.840 on this, you're gonna find more stories about the overreach 2:01:23.120 --> 2:01:27.000 of the federal government. But it certainly doesn't take away 2:01:27.040 --> 2:01:29.680 from the fact that this was an illustration of the 2:01:29.880 --> 2:01:34.800 huge black market around Native American objects, especially things that 2:01:34.880 --> 2:01:38.000 are sacred, human remains, funerary objects, things that should be 2:01:38.160 --> 2:01:42.000 sacred and left alone. So there's a serious side to 2:01:43.280 --> 2:01:45.640 hunting objects. Oh, I get the serious side for sure. 2:01:45.680 --> 2:01:49.680 And I think that you if you went and talk 2:01:49.800 --> 2:01:54.000 to people, um just like pulled people who are hobbyists 2:01:55.520 --> 2:01:58.000 you know about, they don't think they're doing anything wrong. Well, 2:01:58.200 --> 2:01:59.680 you I think you'd find if you said like, hey, 2:02:00.080 --> 2:02:03.720 you found human skeleton. What you do? I think, you know, 2:02:04.000 --> 2:02:09.160 the fast majority of people would would recognize it, they 2:02:09.200 --> 2:02:10.920 wouldn't take it, or they would tell someone or whatever, 2:02:11.000 --> 2:02:13.920 you know. But I think people sort of spread it 2:02:13.960 --> 2:02:18.720 out and a view the arrowhead isn't of significance or 2:02:18.800 --> 2:02:22.760 it was. It wasn't purposefully placed. It was perhaps lost, 2:02:22.960 --> 2:02:25.800 it was broken. It was just it was discarded and 2:02:25.920 --> 2:02:29.400 it wasn't like someone putting something somewhere the same way 2:02:29.440 --> 2:02:32.160 we might look at our own like we might look 2:02:32.240 --> 2:02:36.320 at a cemetery. Um, Like I might look at the 2:02:36.600 --> 2:02:39.760 cemetery that my ancestors were buried in and have a 2:02:39.880 --> 2:02:44.080 very different feeling about it than I would if I found, uh, 2:02:44.480 --> 2:02:47.440 like an old rusty pistol laying out in the woods, 2:02:49.320 --> 2:02:52.520 I'd be like, yeah, I can dig up the graveyard, 2:02:52.760 --> 2:02:54.720 but I just found old rusty pistol out in the woods. 2:02:54.760 --> 2:02:57.080 I'm gonna take a home with me, you know. I mean, 2:02:57.280 --> 2:02:59.360 like we we sort of hold these two like we 2:02:59.560 --> 2:03:03.160 distinct these things, and we we we separate these things 2:03:03.240 --> 2:03:06.520 out in our head. Um. I can't tell where the 2:03:06.560 --> 2:03:08.160 line falls for everybody, but I think a lot of 2:03:08.200 --> 2:03:12.840 people view their being some lines somewhere. It's the bone 2:03:12.960 --> 2:03:16.000 bone of a human leave it alone. Well, I think 2:03:16.160 --> 2:03:19.800 I think I really want some clarity from you, just 2:03:19.920 --> 2:03:23.840 your personal opinion. Like, so obviously there are some legal 2:03:24.160 --> 2:03:26.960 ramific I mean there there's legal boundaries that guide us, 2:03:27.360 --> 2:03:30.120 Like obviously we can't mess with human bones. You can't 2:03:30.200 --> 2:03:33.200 take any kind of artifacts off public land. So let's 2:03:33.200 --> 2:03:37.440 go to private land. Um, if I'm on my land 2:03:37.520 --> 2:03:40.800 and see an airhead, should should I pick that up? 2:03:40.840 --> 2:03:43.280 Should Clay nucom pick it up? If you found a 2:03:43.320 --> 2:03:46.600 wallet with bucks, would you pick it up or give 2:03:46.640 --> 2:03:48.680 it back? I would, I would pick it up and 2:03:48.760 --> 2:03:52.520 give it back. But but I don't. I just I'm 2:03:52.640 --> 2:03:55.280 I'm just being totally honest with you. I'm struggling to 2:03:55.440 --> 2:04:01.800 find the the complete Apples to Apple connection there. And 2:04:02.720 --> 2:04:06.080 because I mean, what am I supposed to if I 2:04:06.120 --> 2:04:07.840 find an airhead on my land? Am I supposed to 2:04:07.960 --> 2:04:10.840 call the you know, the the o s Age, the 2:04:10.960 --> 2:04:13.640 chucktaws that would have been there? And I'm would be 2:04:13.760 --> 2:04:17.520 interesting for you to do that though, for you as 2:04:17.560 --> 2:04:19.680 a landowner. And then that's one of the serious parts 2:04:19.760 --> 2:04:22.160 that I'm hoping comes out of That's a good point 2:04:22.320 --> 2:04:25.640 talks with people like me, is is that there's so 2:04:25.800 --> 2:04:28.640 much more to the provenance of this land. You've said 2:04:28.680 --> 2:04:32.200 that word. Can you tell me what that word means? Yeah, 2:04:32.280 --> 2:04:36.360 I mean that there's a history. It's like in artwork 2:04:36.480 --> 2:04:39.160 or in wine or whatever. It's it's the ownership history. 2:04:39.360 --> 2:04:42.640 Ownership history, got it? Like you know, like some painting 2:04:43.400 --> 2:04:46.720 comes up, you know, the provence. People are very interested 2:04:46.960 --> 2:04:50.160 in its flow through times. So I'm Steve, you nailed 2:04:50.200 --> 2:04:53.600 that one. According to Marriam Webster. Number one because I 2:04:53.720 --> 2:04:57.480 had to Marriam Webster while we've been talking because he's 2:04:57.560 --> 2:05:01.000 used it so many times. And the the first definition 2:05:01.160 --> 2:05:04.160 is just straight origin or source. But then number two 2:05:04.280 --> 2:05:07.240 is the history of ownership of a valued object or 2:05:07.360 --> 2:05:10.120 work of art or literature. The reason it's really important 2:05:10.120 --> 2:05:14.520 in paintings and antiquities is the more solid the provenance is, 2:05:14.640 --> 2:05:17.880 the less worried you are that that it came that 2:05:18.000 --> 2:05:21.280 it emerged out of somewhere as a phony. Yeah, Like 2:05:21.560 --> 2:05:23.160 all you know is like it just came out of 2:05:23.200 --> 2:05:29.160 the period, out of nowhere in Okay, let me ask 2:05:29.200 --> 2:05:31.920 you this, Like, so I'm from western Arkansas, close to 2:05:31.960 --> 2:05:36.360 where you're from originally, and there's a lot of airheads, 2:05:37.000 --> 2:05:39.480 you know, at laddle points, spear points, a lot of 2:05:39.600 --> 2:05:44.480 stone points everywhere. I mean, I'm convinced that they are 2:05:45.960 --> 2:05:51.080 distributed across the landscape everywhere, everywhere. And so think about 2:05:51.160 --> 2:05:53.600 this or this is just a thought pattern that I 2:05:53.640 --> 2:05:56.960 would have, Like we have destroyed so much of the 2:05:57.200 --> 2:06:02.680 earth surface through civilization, covered it with concrete, moved it 2:06:02.960 --> 2:06:09.640 crops crops like we've we so and I'm okay driving 2:06:09.720 --> 2:06:14.280 on a road that has destroyed Native American eraheads. Um, 2:06:14.720 --> 2:06:18.280 But in my mule pasture where my mules tear up 2:06:18.320 --> 2:06:23.120 the ground and they have trails of dirt that have 2:06:23.320 --> 2:06:28.640 exposed the ground, I find some stone points. And that's 2:06:28.640 --> 2:06:30.560 why I would ask you in it just a totally 2:06:30.640 --> 2:06:34.960 heartfelt question. Is like when I when I pick up 2:06:35.000 --> 2:06:38.400 a stone point that can out came off my place, 2:06:38.480 --> 2:06:42.360 which I have I have seen many, I call my 2:06:42.600 --> 2:06:45.360 kids and usually I'll call them out before I pick 2:06:45.400 --> 2:06:47.560 it up if they're home, and say look at that. 2:06:48.360 --> 2:06:51.880 I'll say, the last human to touch that was planning 2:06:51.920 --> 2:06:56.400 to cook his dinner over a fire with an animal 2:06:56.440 --> 2:06:58.600 that he killed with that point. I mean, we it's 2:06:58.640 --> 2:07:00.800 a moment, man, I mean it's just like, oh, look 2:07:00.800 --> 2:07:05.200 at this, does that count for for some value? Like 2:07:05.480 --> 2:07:07.720 what should I do with those? Well, I mean, what 2:07:07.800 --> 2:07:10.680 would you do with them? That's a good question. The 2:07:10.760 --> 2:07:15.080 example that I would point to was Steve's example of 2:07:15.520 --> 2:07:18.720 finding a bison skull. You go on a journey and 2:07:18.880 --> 2:07:22.480 you find out the two the true provenance of that 2:07:22.640 --> 2:07:25.200 animal in its histories, and I reported it and you 2:07:25.320 --> 2:07:30.000 reported it, but it's in my mouth. Yeah, after learning 2:07:30.040 --> 2:07:31.920 all that I've learned, I would want to leave it there, 2:07:32.840 --> 2:07:37.720 and at a certain point would want to introduce science 2:07:37.760 --> 2:07:40.480 into it to see what we could understand about what 2:07:40.640 --> 2:07:43.920 that piece was, Like, what period was it from, what 2:07:44.040 --> 2:07:46.840 were they hunting, who was doing the hunting, Just a 2:07:46.920 --> 2:07:53.360 lot of questions and hopefully layering into the history as 2:07:53.400 --> 2:07:55.080 we know it from the object that's looking at it 2:07:55.160 --> 2:07:59.720 on the ground, coupled with science and then a layer 2:07:59.840 --> 2:08:04.720 of indigenous history or provenance into it, can only add 2:08:04.920 --> 2:08:07.400 to the value of the history of the object. And 2:08:07.480 --> 2:08:09.320 that's my whole point with all of this, is that 2:08:10.160 --> 2:08:14.680 wherever you look across America, there's all these objects, there's 2:08:14.680 --> 2:08:17.200 all this history. It's there for all of us to 2:08:17.320 --> 2:08:20.960 understand and to help enhance our own experience as Americans 2:08:22.280 --> 2:08:24.600 speaking of history. Now that we haven't speaking about anything 2:08:24.640 --> 2:08:29.720 besides history, can you explain to everybody, UM, about the 2:08:29.760 --> 2:08:35.160 Sacred Seeds Project. Absolutely. When I began to write the book, 2:08:35.880 --> 2:08:39.080 became pretty apparent after doing a lot of research that 2:08:40.360 --> 2:08:44.280 the rise of the Mississippian mound builder culture had a 2:08:44.360 --> 2:08:46.640 lot to do with the food that they were eating. 2:08:47.880 --> 2:08:52.640 And around this the same time frame, actually a little 2:08:52.640 --> 2:08:57.520 bit earlier, Um, one of my mentors in life, Dr 2:08:57.600 --> 2:09:00.920 Dward Walker, is the chair emeritus of Anthropology see you Boulder. 2:09:01.440 --> 2:09:03.920 He began to watch some of the trends that was 2:09:04.000 --> 2:09:07.800 happening with some of the big seed companies like Monsanto 2:09:08.240 --> 2:09:10.320 cin Genta, and what they were doing in other countries 2:09:10.400 --> 2:09:14.480 like the country of India, and ultimately I mean like 2:09:14.560 --> 2:09:18.800 trademarking seeds and yes in intellectual property protection, but was 2:09:18.880 --> 2:09:23.040 also displacing them of their indigenous seeds and getting them 2:09:23.160 --> 2:09:29.680 their own contract bound genetically modified organism seeds and which 2:09:29.760 --> 2:09:34.800 is basically what the American farmer does, um loose seeds 2:09:35.120 --> 2:09:38.120 the corn that we see in fields as clones and 2:09:38.320 --> 2:09:46.080 it's uh one small variation of corn compared to the 2:09:46.160 --> 2:09:49.280 thousands of types of corn that were here before, and 2:09:49.400 --> 2:09:53.000 so I began to study the Mississippian record, and basically, 2:09:53.600 --> 2:09:56.920 where there was corn in abundance, there were people in abundance, 2:09:57.720 --> 2:10:00.640 and where there was corn, there were people, there was life. 2:10:01.440 --> 2:10:04.840 And so from a cosmological perspective, that was the gift 2:10:04.960 --> 2:10:08.880 of old woman who gave us seeds, and she gave 2:10:08.960 --> 2:10:11.040 us corn. And all the tribes have different stories, but 2:10:11.160 --> 2:10:15.040 it's so integral to our life ways and cosmology and 2:10:15.160 --> 2:10:19.080 survival that you can't get around it. And so I 2:10:19.160 --> 2:10:21.120 began my own journey of trying to find some of 2:10:21.200 --> 2:10:26.960 these ancient seeds and what it meant. Um. We were 2:10:26.960 --> 2:10:31.280 talking about about this before the podcast Johnny, about what 2:10:31.440 --> 2:10:35.080 happens when of your ancestors are gone at some point. 2:10:35.560 --> 2:10:38.920 Did it all happen at once, No, it was very devastating. 2:10:39.600 --> 2:10:44.400 The examples in Nebraska was because of our proximity to 2:10:44.440 --> 2:10:47.240 the middle of the country, the tribes there, we weren't 2:10:47.280 --> 2:10:49.960 hit until the late seventeen hundreds and early eighteen hundreds. 2:10:50.840 --> 2:10:54.800 It was a wave in late seventeen hundred, eighteen thirty, 2:10:55.040 --> 2:10:59.400 eighteen sixty, and perhaps more waves, but the cumulative effect 2:10:59.480 --> 2:11:02.560 was ninety present decimation rates. So it just may have 2:11:02.640 --> 2:11:06.480 happened in one place and eight hundreds in the other, 2:11:06.760 --> 2:11:10.920 but the net effect was not loss of knowledge for sure, 2:11:12.120 --> 2:11:14.720 and so whatever we can do to find our way 2:11:14.800 --> 2:11:19.440 back to that. What I found was starting with basically 2:11:19.560 --> 2:11:23.040 thirty seeds from the Cherokee Nation Seed Saving Project and 2:11:23.120 --> 2:11:27.640 planting those in the ground. There was something about understanding 2:11:27.760 --> 2:11:32.880 that history, understanding how we planted, when we planted, why, 2:11:33.720 --> 2:11:37.680 what shape, what seeds? How did you plant them? And 2:11:37.760 --> 2:11:43.160 began to piece together this companion planting agricultural life ways 2:11:43.200 --> 2:11:46.480 that was at the center center of how people survived 2:11:46.520 --> 2:11:49.520 on this continent for at least two thousand years ago 2:11:49.560 --> 2:11:53.600 and probably much beyond that. And by putting my hands 2:11:53.640 --> 2:11:59.960 in the soil, by understanding the rhythms, talking with elder 2:12:00.120 --> 2:12:03.040 is piecing together these things back I began to find 2:12:03.080 --> 2:12:06.560 all these little tidbits, um we're supposed to plant on 2:12:06.640 --> 2:12:09.960 the New Moon in May. There's a flower that grows, 2:12:11.440 --> 2:12:14.080 the first one that that flowers, that's when you plant 2:12:14.720 --> 2:12:19.520 other parts of the crop. When we left them, they 2:12:19.560 --> 2:12:24.200 were dropped resistant seeds. And all of these things began 2:12:24.320 --> 2:12:29.320 to impact how I felt, and I truly felt by 2:12:29.400 --> 2:12:32.800 doing these acts by having a good heart, by doing 2:12:32.880 --> 2:12:37.120 them for the right reasons, not for money. Back to 2:12:37.200 --> 2:12:40.920 the whole notion of Robin's work around sacred economies and 2:12:41.000 --> 2:12:45.640 sacred reciprocity, that it began to change me in a way. 2:12:45.680 --> 2:12:49.879 I'm very familiar with inter generational trauma and the impact 2:12:49.960 --> 2:12:53.080 of what colonization has had on indigenous peoples. And it's 2:12:53.120 --> 2:12:57.600 it's rough, it's really hard. But on the converse side, 2:12:58.120 --> 2:13:01.560 perhaps it has to do with epigenetic But by getting 2:13:01.680 --> 2:13:04.760 my hands and the soil, by growing these plants, by 2:13:04.880 --> 2:13:08.920 learning from them, that is healing me, and that it 2:13:08.960 --> 2:13:12.200 can heal others. And we have a notion of blood 2:13:12.280 --> 2:13:17.240 memory that somehow the ancestors through our DNA will help 2:13:17.360 --> 2:13:20.600 us understand how to put this all back together. How 2:13:20.680 --> 2:13:24.800 can we live better again? Um I look at the 2:13:24.880 --> 2:13:27.720 landscape and I see things differently, after doing all this work, 2:13:28.440 --> 2:13:31.200 after studying to be a teacher of the sixth generation. 2:13:32.000 --> 2:13:36.120 I look across this landscape and I see the lands, 2:13:36.440 --> 2:13:39.440 the land that once was. I see the land that 2:13:39.520 --> 2:13:46.680 could be again. I see bison herds massive where everyone 2:13:46.720 --> 2:13:51.920 could hunt them again. The food that they eat is 2:13:52.000 --> 2:13:56.839 back again, switch grass, the bison grass, it's buffalo commons 2:13:58.360 --> 2:14:01.120 um bing or action of all these things that we're 2:14:01.280 --> 2:14:04.120 begin to see again things that were important to tribal peoples, 2:14:04.120 --> 2:14:06.960 that are part of our clan systems. The role of 2:14:07.160 --> 2:14:12.160 wolf and elk and bison, and how these this is 2:14:12.240 --> 2:14:16.840 what the land here was meant two produced to sustain people. 2:14:18.960 --> 2:14:25.320 But I look and see every tillable acre planted. I 2:14:25.480 --> 2:14:32.760 see invasive species of cows everywhere. When those resources are scant, 2:14:33.160 --> 2:14:37.720 who wins who has priority? The private landholder and the cow, 2:14:38.560 --> 2:14:42.080 the elk, the natural order of things. These are the 2:14:42.160 --> 2:14:46.120 things that I ponder. But ultimately that's what Sacred Seat 2:14:46.200 --> 2:14:49.960 is about, is exploring those journeys going backwards in time, 2:14:50.000 --> 2:14:54.480 but also in the age of monocrop cultures, potential failures 2:14:54.520 --> 2:14:57.720 of those. Hopefully, someday people are going to be glad 2:14:58.520 --> 2:15:01.400 that people like me find all these diverse seeds, all 2:15:01.480 --> 2:15:05.080 these different types of corn um, that we have this 2:15:05.360 --> 2:15:08.800 multiplicity of seeds, so that someday we're gonna be glad 2:15:08.840 --> 2:15:11.480 that we have it, and not to mention just the 2:15:11.960 --> 2:15:14.880 richness and the beauty that comes from all these different 2:15:14.920 --> 2:15:20.800 type of seeds. Do you have somewhere of facility or 2:15:21.680 --> 2:15:26.360 you know, how are you storing these things and sort 2:15:26.400 --> 2:15:30.400 of codifying, you know, whatever knowledge is there. I brought 2:15:30.480 --> 2:15:36.160 some men. This is um. There's corn bean and squashing here, 2:15:37.800 --> 2:15:43.800 and this is um an ancient variety actually in my 2:15:45.000 --> 2:15:48.040 studies to find all this stuff. Ultimately we found these 2:15:48.200 --> 2:15:51.040 older collections and one of the things that I was 2:15:51.120 --> 2:15:55.760 so curious to find was an Omaha rainbow flint, which 2:15:55.800 --> 2:15:58.680 I couldn't find anywhere, and ultimately in the collections of 2:15:58.760 --> 2:16:02.440 Carl Barnes, the Cherokee individual who, over the course of 2:16:02.480 --> 2:16:06.680 his eighty five years here he collected over different types 2:16:06.720 --> 2:16:09.040 of seeds across Holiday America's and some of them are 2:16:09.040 --> 2:16:12.760 still viable when you're looking at some right here m hm. 2:16:13.840 --> 2:16:15.600 So yeah, he has a I mean it's like a 2:16:15.880 --> 2:16:21.440 jet black, deep purple, is red red, and those seeds 2:16:21.600 --> 2:16:24.440 corn it's about like the size of like what what 2:16:24.480 --> 2:16:26.360 you sort of considered to be a real big carrot. 2:16:27.360 --> 2:16:28.840 They can be a lot bigger than that. That was 2:16:28.880 --> 2:16:30.480 one of the smaller years. That's the only one that 2:16:30.600 --> 2:16:35.480 wasn't shelled. But that is a ruby flint, blood blood, 2:16:35.520 --> 2:16:38.800 blood red. What does it taste like? Uh, probably the 2:16:38.840 --> 2:16:43.240 difference between commercial white rice and wild rice that you'd 2:16:43.240 --> 2:16:47.080 find up around the Great Lakes just has a much deeper, richy, 2:16:47.480 --> 2:16:55.160 earthy taste to them. Uh. You know, sweet is one variety. Um, 2:16:55.440 --> 2:16:59.960 there's flower, there's flint, there's popping corn, and there's sweet corn. 2:17:01.000 --> 2:17:03.880 And uh, I've never had much luck with growing the 2:17:03.920 --> 2:17:06.760 sweet varieties because it's sugar and all things in nature 2:17:06.840 --> 2:17:13.200 like sugar. So bugs, raccoons, they love it. So you 2:17:13.840 --> 2:17:18.800 you these these seeds would have been, um, you don't 2:17:18.840 --> 2:17:21.959 think they would have been hybridized with modern varieties. I mean, 2:17:22.040 --> 2:17:24.480 as much as we can tell. I mean, they were 2:17:24.560 --> 2:17:31.080 all turned into hybrids to you know, grow well locally, 2:17:31.120 --> 2:17:33.560 which is basically what I'm attempting to do too. So 2:17:34.480 --> 2:17:38.199 the the version that I originally had was a rainbow flint. 2:17:38.920 --> 2:17:41.640 And some of these seeds are more sacred to others. 2:17:41.720 --> 2:17:45.040 So we were talking earlier about clan taboos, etcetera. So 2:17:45.120 --> 2:17:48.760 amongst my mother's tribe, the Omaha um my clan is 2:17:48.879 --> 2:17:55.320 responsible for keeping the sacred red corn. And now I'm 2:17:55.320 --> 2:17:58.200 glad to say that we have our own varieties of 2:17:58.240 --> 2:18:02.480 our sacred red back. One of the clan taboos is 2:18:02.720 --> 2:18:07.360 that who is better to keep the red corn than 2:18:07.400 --> 2:18:09.080 those that can't even touch it, which is why it 2:18:09.160 --> 2:18:10.800 was in the bag and why I didn't touch it 2:18:11.600 --> 2:18:14.000 because my clan is not allowed to touch that's one 2:18:14.040 --> 2:18:16.200 of the clan taboos. What do you do with it? 2:18:17.240 --> 2:18:19.920 I'm the protector of it. I mean, wouldn't eat that. 2:18:20.160 --> 2:18:23.160 I can't touch it. I can't eat it. So your 2:18:23.200 --> 2:18:24.760 clan would have grown it, and then what would they 2:18:24.800 --> 2:18:26.400 have done with it? Shared it with the rest of 2:18:26.440 --> 2:18:29.800 the tribe and every clan. So your clan is inside 2:18:29.840 --> 2:18:33.280 of your tribe. That's okay, so it's a bigger tribe. 2:18:33.320 --> 2:18:37.600 But your particular clan had this job. So that's like 2:18:37.720 --> 2:18:39.440 that idea, that too. Better to keep it than the 2:18:39.480 --> 2:18:42.000 one that can't touch it. A lot of people have 2:18:42.120 --> 2:18:46.080 trouble with that. It's good man, get him he can't 2:18:46.080 --> 2:18:48.000 eat it, right, It will be there when you come 2:18:48.000 --> 2:18:50.080 looking for it will be So what would they have 2:18:50.240 --> 2:18:53.320 used this corn for? Would they have grounded up? Could 2:18:53.320 --> 2:18:55.360 you boil that and eat it like corn on the cob? 2:18:55.480 --> 2:18:57.200 Like you could, but that's not the best way to 2:18:57.560 --> 2:19:00.520 make it healthy. Historically, as one of the things that 2:19:00.600 --> 2:19:03.959 we found from the anthropological record was that in its 2:19:04.440 --> 2:19:10.800 raw form or ground and flint's have a thicker I'd 2:19:10.879 --> 2:19:15.400 like to see that passing around. And there's also beans 2:19:15.480 --> 2:19:18.480 there that are from the Cherokee side. The trailer tear 2:19:18.520 --> 2:19:22.440 beans would literally sustained us. And those are indigenous squash 2:19:22.520 --> 2:19:25.520 seeds there. So the three grown together. It's very important. 2:19:26.240 --> 2:19:28.600 Corn takes a lot of nitrogen out of the soil. 2:19:28.760 --> 2:19:32.320 Beans put it back. Um. Squash keeps a lot of 2:19:32.440 --> 2:19:36.320 things out of their deer raccoon raccoons love corn, and 2:19:36.360 --> 2:19:40.120 so when you plant them all together, um, you have 2:19:40.200 --> 2:19:45.280 a whole different perspective of growing that is more sustainable, 2:19:45.360 --> 2:19:49.080 so to speak. Um, because when you look at the 2:19:49.120 --> 2:19:54.720 differences between Euro American agg methodologies, one is put them 2:19:54.760 --> 2:19:58.240 in rows and then switch out the fields, whereas ours 2:19:59.520 --> 2:20:03.320 rarely moved, um except for like a tenure time period. 2:20:04.879 --> 2:20:09.360 So I'm a little more sustainable from that perspective. But 2:20:09.520 --> 2:20:13.440 it's just been my journey with these seeds too. To educate. 2:20:13.959 --> 2:20:19.800 Going back to Robin's work on braiding sweet grass, she 2:20:19.959 --> 2:20:25.520 had a dream after visiting I believe it was a 2:20:25.760 --> 2:20:30.960 trading market in South America, and in her dream she 2:20:31.080 --> 2:20:35.240 went and money was no good, only the sacred currency 2:20:35.360 --> 2:20:38.920 of other things that you could trade, and my students 2:20:39.120 --> 2:20:41.800 caught caught that for sure. And when I began Sacred Sy, 2:20:41.959 --> 2:20:44.400 we looked at being a seed bank for money taken 2:20:44.440 --> 2:20:48.040 on U. S. D A grants millions of dollars and 2:20:48.160 --> 2:20:51.680 they finally said no, let's just leave it as it is, 2:20:51.920 --> 2:20:54.879 and that's how it got the name. So rather than 2:20:54.920 --> 2:21:00.320 trying to exploit the plant nation for corn here um, 2:21:00.600 --> 2:21:02.920 I just utilize it to to share and to educate 2:21:02.920 --> 2:21:05.280 and show people the beauty because this is not what 2:21:05.360 --> 2:21:08.520 we think of a corner. This whole plant is red purple. 2:21:11.200 --> 2:21:13.440 That's why I brought this in broken because you can 2:21:13.480 --> 2:21:16.320 see the cob is red and the stock is red. 2:21:16.680 --> 2:21:19.400 Stock starts green and then turned a deep purple red 2:21:20.240 --> 2:21:22.600 and usually we'll make it about three quarters away before 2:21:22.920 --> 2:21:25.840 the seeds are ready. So is there like this seed 2:21:26.440 --> 2:21:29.080 with the organization, would there be a way for I mean, 2:21:29.160 --> 2:21:33.760 are you distributing seed in any way to tribes or people? 2:21:33.959 --> 2:21:37.160 I do um. When we first started, it was really 2:21:37.200 --> 2:21:39.600 a matter of you know, I had just a handful 2:21:39.680 --> 2:21:41.560 of different type of seeds and I've got so many 2:21:41.640 --> 2:21:44.720 different stories of how seeds came to us. It was 2:21:44.840 --> 2:21:48.119 one fun story. There was a guy that was um 2:21:48.879 --> 2:21:51.560 descendant of the original homesteader. I want to say it 2:21:51.680 --> 2:21:54.320 was fifth grade grandfather. I don't know what it was, 2:21:54.440 --> 2:21:57.200 but he was a nice man and he had been 2:21:57.240 --> 2:22:01.360 digging on his land and found a noble corn grist stone, 2:22:02.440 --> 2:22:04.960 and he did the right thing, and he contacted did 2:22:05.040 --> 2:22:07.680 his research and found out the tribe that it came from, 2:22:07.840 --> 2:22:14.840 the Pawnees, and he contacted them and they told him 2:22:15.360 --> 2:22:18.200 it sounds like one of ours. Why don't you come 2:22:18.240 --> 2:22:20.280 on down and we'll talk about it. So he did. 2:22:20.840 --> 2:22:24.440 Mind you, that's a trip from western Nebraska down to Oklahoma. 2:22:25.600 --> 2:22:31.720 And when they got there there tribal historic preservation officer 2:22:31.800 --> 2:22:33.920 pulled out one similar and says, yep, that looks like 2:22:34.040 --> 2:22:40.840 one of ours. And in a true sacred reciprocity trading agreement, 2:22:41.560 --> 2:22:44.120 they said, you know what, we're gonna We're gonna take this, 2:22:45.160 --> 2:22:51.800 but we're gonna give you these being seeds here. And uh, 2:22:52.040 --> 2:22:55.120 I can't I never remember if it's spotted like a 2:22:55.240 --> 2:22:58.040 horse or painted like a horse beans, but they're absolutely 2:22:58.120 --> 2:23:01.360 gorgeous and it's a bush bean and it's what the 2:23:01.440 --> 2:23:05.560 Pawnees used, and uh I love it. I knew the 2:23:05.600 --> 2:23:07.400 story is for real. When he told me all these things, 2:23:07.440 --> 2:23:10.160 one they made him go down there. You know, there's 2:23:10.200 --> 2:23:12.480 no put it in a mail package and let's talk 2:23:12.480 --> 2:23:14.560 about it later. They're like, bring it down on this talk. 2:23:15.160 --> 2:23:17.120 Once they got there, Once they gave him the seeds, 2:23:18.040 --> 2:23:25.160 they said, no white man's ever had these before. Well, 2:23:25.520 --> 2:23:27.320 he was afraid to plant them. So when he heard 2:23:27.360 --> 2:23:30.680 one of my podcasts or stories, he contacted me and says, 2:23:30.800 --> 2:23:34.120 I'm I'm afraid to screw this up. And of course 2:23:34.360 --> 2:23:36.240 he's I said, well, wy don't you put him in 2:23:36.280 --> 2:23:38.280 the mail And he'sa no, why don't you come get him? 2:23:38.920 --> 2:23:41.680 I had to go get him. That's great. So there's 2:23:41.680 --> 2:23:44.040 all sorts of stories with this project. This has been 2:23:44.080 --> 2:23:47.720 really beautiful. It's an educational content to explain to people 2:23:47.840 --> 2:23:51.600 and ultimately, you know, keep finding all these different hybrids 2:23:51.879 --> 2:23:55.440 that ultimately should be helpful to us as human beings. Someday. 2:23:56.280 --> 2:24:01.600 Um I asked one question, got one. It's not an 2:24:01.640 --> 2:24:06.160 Ottle baby question, but I'm wondering because we talked about 2:24:06.160 --> 2:24:08.800 it while we're having our snacks before the podcast, and 2:24:08.879 --> 2:24:12.800 we're talking about this the problem of smallpox that really 2:24:12.879 --> 2:24:16.680 decimated population and thus decimated the oral history that was there, 2:24:17.720 --> 2:24:20.040 So knowing that that's sort of like a chink in 2:24:20.120 --> 2:24:24.640 the armor of this history cultural amnesia perhaps sure, and 2:24:24.959 --> 2:24:27.000 maybe that's just a part of it, and that's and 2:24:27.120 --> 2:24:30.440 then and then your people just accept that as a 2:24:30.560 --> 2:24:33.760 part of being people that do oral history. But now 2:24:33.959 --> 2:24:37.279 you as someone as in a historian, that you're gaining 2:24:37.360 --> 2:24:39.959 all these stories and you're learning more and more. Are 2:24:40.040 --> 2:24:44.000 you just going oral history or are you now writing 2:24:44.040 --> 2:24:46.000 it down and trying to preserve it in another way 2:24:46.440 --> 2:24:49.880 to prevent what's happened in the past. I think it's 2:24:49.920 --> 2:24:53.440 important to look at a combination of both someone who 2:24:53.520 --> 2:24:56.680 has written a book manuscript as Steve no It's just 2:24:56.760 --> 2:24:58.760 got to be the hardest thing I've ever tried to 2:24:58.800 --> 2:25:00.720 do and one of the coolest because that opens up 2:25:01.200 --> 2:25:06.440 so many doors. But hopefully it's gonna be a combination 2:25:06.520 --> 2:25:09.520 of both that I can in this research and in 2:25:09.640 --> 2:25:12.760 these teachings that I can help others understand things that 2:25:12.840 --> 2:25:16.000 we've missed. Just the understanding that there's a reason why 2:25:16.080 --> 2:25:21.160 we forgot so many things, the impact of colonization, impact 2:25:21.280 --> 2:25:26.200 of being acculturated into the American society, and there's a 2:25:26.320 --> 2:25:28.560 ton of history there and federal policies and a lot 2:25:28.600 --> 2:25:31.400 of us really sad. But regardless of that, you can 2:25:31.480 --> 2:25:35.040 still own your own history. You can find the seeds 2:25:35.280 --> 2:25:38.440 that you your people once eight and you can find them. 2:25:38.920 --> 2:25:42.480 Um a quick nod to the land back topic. I 2:25:42.560 --> 2:25:46.800 know that's originally how I was thought of m and 2:25:46.920 --> 2:25:50.160 coming onto here. But one of the richest examples that 2:25:50.280 --> 2:25:52.320 I can say not to do with public lands. It 2:25:52.400 --> 2:25:54.640 has to do with private lands. And one of the 2:25:54.680 --> 2:25:58.840 best examples I can point to was the author Roger Welsh, 2:25:59.120 --> 2:26:01.960 who's a long time in front of the Pawnee, and 2:26:02.320 --> 2:26:07.840 in the process of the anniversary of Lewis and clark Um, 2:26:08.680 --> 2:26:12.360 he gave the Pawnee Nation some of his private land 2:26:13.560 --> 2:26:18.320 out near Carney, Nebraska and asked them properly what they 2:26:18.360 --> 2:26:20.720 wanted to do with it. It was a really powerful moment. 2:26:21.280 --> 2:26:25.560 They said two things. They're traditional bands of chief. One 2:26:25.840 --> 2:26:28.520 was we want to plant our corn, which they've done 2:26:28.560 --> 2:26:31.240 and it's an incredible project, alcoholic and what she's done 2:26:31.240 --> 2:26:34.560 there is amazing. And two they said they wanted to dance. 2:26:35.480 --> 2:26:38.920 But ultimately that goes back to the call to arms. Um, 2:26:39.440 --> 2:26:41.880 what can people do who are interested in this topic 2:26:41.959 --> 2:26:45.240 and want to learn more at the very least, wherever 2:26:45.320 --> 2:26:50.320 your family lands might be, UM, your provenance is important. 2:26:50.440 --> 2:26:53.440 Perhaps your family has been there since homesteaders, maybe they've 2:26:53.440 --> 2:27:01.200 been there for seven generations in clearing Ugal western Arkansas. 2:27:02.280 --> 2:27:03.959 But if you go and look, you're going to find 2:27:04.000 --> 2:27:06.800 a provenance so much deeper. And if you have it 2:27:06.920 --> 2:27:10.160 within your heart to find those people that used to 2:27:10.280 --> 2:27:15.480 live there welcome them back with open arms, then only 2:27:15.720 --> 2:27:19.200 incredible treasures can await you and any American who wants 2:27:19.240 --> 2:27:22.280 to explore the provenance of this land in history, and 2:27:22.360 --> 2:27:24.840 it's only going to help us get along better and 2:27:25.000 --> 2:27:27.480 to have a richer history of the lands that we share. 2:27:29.440 --> 2:27:33.640 How do people find you specifically, if they're curious about 2:27:33.959 --> 2:27:36.440 your book that you've worked on, if they're curious about 2:27:36.520 --> 2:27:39.800 Sacred Seeds, if it's other tribal members who want to 2:27:39.840 --> 2:27:45.080 connect with you and share notes, share seeds absolutely UM. 2:27:45.320 --> 2:27:48.680 Sacredcy dot Org is the website for the project, and 2:27:48.760 --> 2:27:52.520 that's really what I'm wanting to support doing podcasts like this. 2:27:52.800 --> 2:27:56.440 But you can find me on Instagram. Taylor Keene seven 2:27:57.000 --> 2:27:59.520 put up a lot of images of the corn and 2:28:00.040 --> 2:28:06.440 plan that right now, so Taylor Keene is a full 2:28:06.520 --> 2:28:08.960 time instructor at Creighton AM I saying that right, That's right, 2:28:09.080 --> 2:28:13.760 Creton University's College of Business also the Founder's Sacred Seeds. 2:28:15.080 --> 2:28:17.920 So if you want to find out more, I'm sure 2:28:17.959 --> 2:28:21.040 you can dig in and that route. Can you repeat 2:28:21.040 --> 2:28:23.160 your Instagram handle? Oh? Yeah, I hit us with that? 2:28:23.360 --> 2:28:26.560 Is it? Taylor Keene seven? Taylor Keene seven t A 2:28:26.760 --> 2:28:29.680 Y l O R K double e N the number seven. 2:28:31.520 --> 2:28:33.440 All right, man, thanks so much for joining us. You 2:28:33.560 --> 2:28:37.760 gotta clay. I've got one last thing here that I 2:28:37.840 --> 2:28:45.080 wanted to share, big old arrowhead. Oh look at that. 2:28:46.640 --> 2:28:50.760 This is an ancient type of war club, and it 2:28:50.920 --> 2:28:54.080 was adorned by a member of my tribe. Those are 2:28:54.160 --> 2:28:57.440 objects that are used during our war dance for younger 2:28:57.560 --> 2:29:01.240 men than myself. But I'm wanted to share that with you, Steve. 2:29:01.959 --> 2:29:04.760 Oh it's beautiful man. Thanks for inviting me on the show. 2:29:05.840 --> 2:29:07.320 Like we get to have that in our studio, you do. 2:29:09.600 --> 2:29:14.120 Was this war club made of wood? It was always 2:29:14.360 --> 2:29:17.800 made out of wood, like a barrel typically, But it's 2:29:17.840 --> 2:29:20.320 origins go back to a symbol of power in ancient 2:29:20.400 --> 2:29:26.160 Native America, the symbol of the mace. What kind of feathers. 2:29:26.200 --> 2:29:28.560 Are these all kinds of different things in there. There's 2:29:28.640 --> 2:29:34.440 some pheasants, there's some um southern birds that are in there, 2:29:34.879 --> 2:29:39.000 some pretty colorful ones. Those are cockatoos or I can 2:29:39.160 --> 2:29:40.680 straighten those out a little bit. I just sneak it 2:29:40.720 --> 2:29:43.640 into my bag there. But it's beautiful. Man, that's cool, 2:29:44.400 --> 2:29:48.840 very cool. Thank you. Because we're as our wall works around, 2:29:48.879 --> 2:29:50.680 we're gonna that's gonna we're gonna find a good spot 2:29:50.720 --> 2:29:53.400 for that one. So would this be o Maha or Cherokee? 2:29:53.800 --> 2:29:56.720 That would have been just probably goes back to the 2:29:56.800 --> 2:29:59.680 Mississippian period because that symbol of the mace of power. 2:29:59.760 --> 2:30:01.480 When we talk about it in the future, what what 2:30:01.560 --> 2:30:03.400 would we say? How would we describe this when a 2:30:03.480 --> 2:30:07.120 podcast guest goes, what's that? That's a war mace? A 2:30:07.240 --> 2:30:15.879 war mace from the the planes traditions, Oh Maha, O sage. 2:30:15.920 --> 2:30:19.160 All of us would have used those, but you wouldn't 2:30:19.160 --> 2:30:20.720 want to get punked on the head with that. Then, 2:30:24.360 --> 2:30:27.600 all right, Taylor Keen, thanks very much for joining us, man, 2:30:27.680 --> 2:30:29.720 I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Thank you, 2:30:29.879 --> 2:30:30.160 thank you.