1 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: This is Me Eat podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, 2 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: folk bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You 3 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 1: can't predict anything. Presented by First Light, Go Farther, Stay Longer. 4 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:36,480 Speaker 1: Everybody joined today by very special guest Taylor Keen. Oh Maha, 5 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: Cherokee correct correct Part den is open, which we'll get into. 6 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: I am I have part early homing it and then 7 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: uh and then as all of us are. But you 8 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:53,520 Speaker 1: ever hear den is open? It's different, right, yeah, because 9 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: you know you talk about folks like me wind up, 10 00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: Folks like me wind up throwing a little bit of Neanderthal. 11 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: I've got Western Europeans. Oh you got a little of 12 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: that too. Okay, we'll get to that. I've been a 13 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 1: lot of people don't know what I'm not really clear 14 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: what adnis open is other than I know it's another homedin. 15 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: Like I did a fair better research last night because 16 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:16,959 Speaker 1: I really didn't know what it was. And I'm not 17 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: saying I'm the expert now, but I had the same 18 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: question just like if you were a dear today, if 19 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: you were a dear today winding around, like let's say 20 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 1: your white tailed deer and you wander around and like, oh, 21 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: there's another kind of deer. It's a meal deer. He 22 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: there's another kind of deer. It's a blacktail deer. Um. Once, 23 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: by the time you could have been a homed in 24 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 1: walking around, you have been Oh hey, it's another kind 25 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:43,119 Speaker 1: of homedy. We'll get to that. Um, Clay, you were 26 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: on Rogan's podcast. Was that fun? Yeah? Well that's for sure, 27 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: really unique experience. I listen to a little bit of it. 28 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: I didn't quick because I got bored, mind you just 29 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: I just haven't gotten through it yet. Oh you didn't quit. 30 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: I thought you said you did quit because you got bored. 31 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: I was like, well, okay, if if that was true, 32 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: that was true, and it's not, I wouldn't have told 33 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: you that. Yeah, let me give me a break. I 34 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: have said something like, um, I just said something like 35 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: good job, Clay. Yeah, I said that was a great job, Clay. Yeah. No, 36 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:14,799 Speaker 1: I I don't know. I thought it was good. We 37 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: enjoy hanging out with him. Oh yeah, and and and 38 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: I didn't get to spend a lot of time with 39 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 1: Joe aside from just in the podcast. But unique experience 40 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 1: going down there. I mean, you know, just being on 41 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: his podcast was probably the it was. It was less 42 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: It was less intimidating than I thought it would be. 43 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: And I won't lie. I was slightly intimidated, but and 44 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: and and just in a normal kind of way. But 45 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:44,119 Speaker 1: once once you got in there, Joe's a great guy 46 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: to talk to, a great interviewer. He's very he's very 47 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: generous and gracious. I did not know what he knew 48 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 1: about me, so I didn't know what we were going 49 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: to be talking about. You know. The conversation flowed along 50 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 1: a pretty standard like Clay knew him talking point, you know, 51 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:04,239 Speaker 1: other than if there were a few there were a 52 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: few curveballs which were fun, but no, Yeah, but Joe's 53 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:12,799 Speaker 1: like he's very I feel like he's as an interviewer, 54 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:16,399 Speaker 1: he's very sensitive to things. It's almost like he picks 55 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 1: up things floating through the air. Like I feel like 56 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 1: I could show him your thumb print and he'd be 57 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: he'd tell you a bunch of like he tell you 58 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: a bunch about the persons, you know what I'm saying. 59 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 1: Like I feel like you could listen to episodes of 60 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 1: bevery Grease podcast, listen to like two episodes of Grease 61 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: podcast and kind of really like understand what to talk 62 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: about what to ask. It's very sensitive that way. Sure, 63 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: I can't tell what's there's a good there's good news 64 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: and bad news. I want to talk about drought and heat, 65 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: but I also want to talk about the t RCP 66 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: land Access Appreciation thing. Here's the deal. Uh, this is 67 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: gonna sound Montana centric, but understanding that it's it's not 68 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 1: Montana centric. In the state of Montana, there's a program 69 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: called the Block Management Access Program. And how it works 70 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: is this. They take revenue drawn from people buying hunting licenses, okay, 71 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: and they take this revenue and they enlist private landowners, ranchers, farmers, 72 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: other private landowners. They enlist private landowners into the black 73 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: Manager program. Once private land is in the Black Management program, 74 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: you hunt it for free. So nonresident resident I mean 75 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 1: everything we're talking about, everything from elk turkeys live on 76 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: these places and you come and hunt Black management. And 77 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: I think a lot of like a lot of things 78 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,679 Speaker 1: that are cool, such as national forests and other stuff. 79 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: A lot of people kind of think that it must 80 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: have like one day fallen from outer space and there 81 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 1: it is, and they don't realize that's sort of like 82 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 1: effort that goes into it. The landowners do get paid 83 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:49,359 Speaker 1: to enrolling black manage, but it trusts me, it is 84 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: not enough to offset the inconvenience and in hassling risk. 85 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: It's just like like, no one is going into black management, uh, 86 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:00,359 Speaker 1: licking their lips about how rich they're gonna yet it 87 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:03,160 Speaker 1: just doesn't work that way. It's an act of generosity 88 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: to put your land in black management. Um. We got 89 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 1: this idea from my brother who was involved in another 90 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: carent incarnation. Where do you say carnation that's like a 91 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: kind of condensed milk? What do you say like because 92 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 1: it's not a reincarnation, which we got to talk about 93 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 1: because that thing about weasels being doomed so well that 94 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: some other days stay tuned for that. That's feel I'm 95 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: gonna Phil get my interest meter out. When I talked 96 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 1: about Phil hates that interest me. Um, what was I saying? Oh, 97 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 1: so we're doing a thing called the t RCP Montana 98 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: Farm and Ranch Hunter Access Appreciation Sweepsteaks finally crafted title 99 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: Mind you Again, Montana. I think I came up with 100 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 1: that was it was like, this is why happens on 101 00:05:57,600 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 1: three people try to come up with the title together. 102 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: It's called the Montana Farm and Ranch Hunter Access Appreciation 103 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: sweep steaks. We have gone what what what? What are 104 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: you smirking about over there? Phil, I'm just a mouthful 105 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: of a name. Yeah, it's a great name. I like 106 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:16,840 Speaker 1: it because it lays it all out. You don't need 107 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:21,280 Speaker 1: a subtitle with a name like that, right. Uh, it's 108 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 1: a sweepstakes donations. So we got all kinds of crazy things. 109 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 1: You could win tons of things, and you buy tickets, 110 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: and then what we're gonna do is we're gonna take 111 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: all the money that we get from this, every last penny. 112 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: We're doing this in conjunction with t RCP. Theodore rolls 113 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 1: about conservation partnership in conjunctu with t RCP. You buy 114 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 1: these tickets and you win a bunch of stuff, and 115 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: then we're gonna take all the money and buy things 116 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: to thank people who enroll their land in black management. 117 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 1: We're not talking about sending them like coffee mugs and whatnot, 118 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 1: like buying them farm and ranch equipment, gate mechanisms for 119 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: you know, like uh, automatic gates, calf shelters, stuff people need, 120 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: help them get stuff they actually need. That's going on 121 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: right now up to when Kran entered by August one 122 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: at midnight Eastern standard. Five dollars gets you one entry. 123 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: Between ten and twenty four entries you can get for 124 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: four bucks. If you buy more than twenty five entries, 125 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 1: you get them for three bucks apiece. You can only 126 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: do five hundred entries per person. Do this list like 127 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: when I try to chain saws, meat grinders, meet craft 128 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: knives full first like kit byan o'harness kit, Javelin, pro hunt, bipod, 129 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: when I try to load all the things, like smoke 130 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: comes out of my computer. That's how many things are available. 131 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: We gotta tell him the link. That's a good idea. 132 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: Tell him, uh, it's support dot t r CP dot org, 133 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: forward slash b M A yeah. So if you hunt 134 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: Montana and you use BLM, and if you live here, 135 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: you're guaran almost guarant damn t you do, or you 136 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: visit and use block management, jump in and start one 137 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: of these in your own state to reward and thank 138 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: people who open their lands up. Can now on to 139 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 1: the bad stuff. Holy cow, the heat wave, an extreme drought. 140 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: It's so bad they're air dropping air dropping water to 141 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: keep big horn sheep alive in Nevada Nevada Department of 142 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: Wildlife replenishing desert big horn sheep's only source of water 143 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: for miles. Without intervention, animal populations will decline. Ecosystem viability 144 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: is threatened. Nevada is experiencing intense drought for the second 145 00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: year in a row. Last year, I didn't know this. 146 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: Las Vegas went two forty days without measurable rainfall. This 147 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 1: year of the state is in what's called exceptional drought, 148 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: which is the highest level of drought according to National 149 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:19,319 Speaker 1: Weather Service. Elk to Lee elk in California. There's a 150 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: population of to the elk in California. They're dying from 151 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 1: lack of water, dying of dehydration. They had a historic 152 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 1: water source they would use at this point Rees National Seashore. 153 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: How how does that pronounce raise rees? What is that? 154 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:41,199 Speaker 1: There's been an ongoing issue where the elk are using 155 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: water and feed that was meant for cattle. So they 156 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: put a fence up, but only some of these elk 157 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: can get at this fence. About a third about a 158 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:55,439 Speaker 1: third of the population died of dehydration because they don't 159 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,959 Speaker 1: have any water source on their on their ground, they 160 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 1: can't get around. Defense not to defense but around to 161 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 1: get skate of the you know, food and water. This 162 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: is a tricky one. I feel like, get into it. Well, 163 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:14,439 Speaker 1: one you have like a cattle lease, which is you know, 164 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: the reason the fence went up because the elk are 165 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: competing with these cattle, and so you got to start 166 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,680 Speaker 1: to think about whether, you know, what's more important, you know, 167 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: these animals that we all own or someone's private cattle. 168 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: You know, and again we don't know the nuances. They 169 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:34,959 Speaker 1: have a grazing lease. They have a grazing lease. But 170 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: most places, I mean here, where you have grazing leases 171 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: on public land, you don't fence out wildlife. Yeah. Um, 172 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 1: so that's interesting. So it was for sure public land. 173 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 1: It's National Park Service land. Mm hmm. They're being sued mhm. 174 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: So the historic the historic water on their side of 175 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:01,319 Speaker 1: the fence usually would have been enough, but it wasn't. This. Yeah, yeah, 176 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: one of the you know, I gather it's like this 177 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: like highly fenced area, and I also gather that it's 178 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: like a pretty managed herd, but they're yeah, they're not 179 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,839 Speaker 1: able to get to water. Listen, man, I've tried this 180 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:21,079 Speaker 1: a lot. I've tried sitting around and telling myself about all, 181 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: you know, the insane heat everywhere. I've tried sitting around 182 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: being like there's no such thing as climate change, those 183 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 1: such thing as climate change. It's just hot. But son 184 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: of a bitch man. After a while, you can hide, 185 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: you can hide. It's it's it's like getting hot. It's 186 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: gonna be bad for wildlife. It's just yeah, you can 187 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: say that. I don't think you can sit around saying 188 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 1: it's not. You can say like, I don't care. You 189 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,839 Speaker 1: can argue about what's causing it. You can argue about 190 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 1: the cause, but it's not if you like to hunt 191 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: and fit. Change is coming. Yeah, yeah, dude. Another interesting 192 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: thing this is this is a crazy one. Kevin Murphy 193 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 1: sent this to me this morning. So San Jose, San Jose, 194 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: California passed a gun like a really weird gun control 195 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 1: measure that it's very puzzling to me. Basically that if 196 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: you own guns, you pay a tax, and the tax 197 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,319 Speaker 1: is supposed to offset what it costs the city to 198 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 1: address gun related phone call gun related crime. So you 199 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 1: can imagine someone who's got like a pistol they bought 200 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 1: on the corner, tucked down to the back shed and 201 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 1: they're planning on, you know, doing armed robbery, and they're like, dah, 202 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: I forgot to send him my tax money. Let me 203 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:55,959 Speaker 1: come on, we're supposed to get liability insurance. I think 204 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 1: if you want to find a parallel San Jose, California 205 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:01,680 Speaker 1: at that struggle for a parallel thought of this would 206 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: be like if you you could one could make the argument, 207 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:11,559 Speaker 1: they could say the First Amendment rights cost taxpayers money. Okay, 208 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: let's say there's a there's there's there's a protest, there's 209 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: a protest of Um, there's a massive protest to protest. Uh, well, 210 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: give me something people. Let's say there's a massive protest 211 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: to protest the outcome of the presidential election. And there's 212 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 1: a massive counter protest to protest people protesting the outcome 213 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: of the presidential election. So you have all these people 214 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: with mixed ideologies exercising First Amendment rights. Okay, there's a 215 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:46,319 Speaker 1: police president, there's a police presence. They there's cost of 216 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 1: business because business is closed. There's cost the police because 217 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:53,319 Speaker 1: police come out they monitor it. There's there's community meetings 218 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: that are set aside to plan like safe protest spaces, 219 00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: to cordin people off. It's very expensive. So someone could say, 220 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: if you want to exercise First Amendment rights, you need 221 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: to pay at tax because it costs us money to 222 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 1: have First Amendment rights. And someone would say, like, but 223 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 1: the peaceful people aren't committing crimes and burning down buildings, 224 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: why should they be paid tax to pay attacks, to 225 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: which I would say, wonderful point. Yeah, it's absurd, It 226 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: is absurd. Yeah, it seems like just a punishment, a 227 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: punishments legal gun owners. It's just grasp and it's so well. 228 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 1: Kevin Murphy made the point that it's it's like a 229 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 1: path towards only that the rich and privilege have weapons. Mhmm, 230 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 1: those that can afford shot and the Appalachians. Wait till 231 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: the next podcast, Claire, can you give us the update 232 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: on Brunal the Bear? So, first tell us about you 233 00:14:57,520 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: told us before about Brunal the Bear. So, Bruno the 234 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: Bear what I did a report on him on this podcast. 235 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: He came from Wisconsin and traveled all the way down 236 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: to Arkansas, and he gained national attention going through crop fields. 237 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: Did you see that, Taylor? Do you remember that from 238 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: He gained national attention like this black bear walking through 239 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: corn fields and stuff, and and he was extremely uh, 240 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: un unalarmed by people, so people would be masses of 241 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: people would be following him and he just kind of 242 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: mind his own business and he never got into any 243 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: significant nuisance trouble. And like a thousand mile journey or 244 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: however long it was, tell him the theory, tell him 245 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: the theory about how he did. So there was there's 246 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: lots of theories about why this bear made this journey, 247 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: and you know, the biologists chimed in or like you know, 248 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 1: bears only travel that far if they're looking for new 249 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: home ranges, new mates, or food. There was theories that 250 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: so he was heading from the north to Arkansas. We 251 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 1: have a bear population in Arkansas, and he walked across 252 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: all this country that did not have resident bear populations. 253 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: So there was a theory that he climbed on a 254 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: boat on the Mississippi River, a grain barge and was 255 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: my garbage can last night. I'll believe that. Yeah, there 256 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: was a theory that he climbed into a grain barge 257 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: and traveled up north and got off the barge, which 258 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 1: is bizarre, you know, probably and then he was just 259 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: coming home. He was coming home the corridor. Yeah, homing 260 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: instinct is really strong, like when they trapped bears like that. 261 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: Bears very rarely don't come back to where they came from. 262 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: That's like a good plot for a kid's movie. Yeah yeah, 263 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 1: but we'll make it a pet dog that gets lost 264 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: on vacation. It's already been done. So this bear, he 265 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: wintered in northern Arkansas, as I understand it, This is 266 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 1: where you left off last time, right, Yeah, he was 267 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: just in northern Arkas and people were My mom was 268 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: texting me and Clay, please don't kill Bruno because I'm 269 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: in Arkansas. Un because people people were very worried about 270 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 1: Bruno showing up in Arkansas because there's the he could 271 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 1: have gone into a hunt. Yeah, that's right. And and 272 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: so now this I don't have all the details on, 273 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: but he was basically trapped as I understand it, in Arkansas. 274 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: Potentially in Missouri. He may have gone back over the 275 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: line of the Missouri He was trapped by gaming fish 276 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: and relocated to northern Louisiana. Because basically, the bears out 277 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 1: of Arkansas are spreading in like all directions, southern Missouri, 278 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 1: northern Louisiana, East Texas, south eastern Oklahoma, and for whatever reason, 279 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: they chose to release him in Louisiana. Sad story. Boys, 280 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 1: he got hit by a car in Louisiana on Tuesday 281 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 1: and they had to euthanize him. Yep, so Bruno's dead. 282 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 1: I'm sorry the things he's seen, man, Yeah, no doubt 283 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: there was. There was the theory that he was that 284 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: he was a tame bear because of how unusual he 285 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 1: was with his uh, how he interact with people. I 286 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: mean tam like, not like habituated, but tame, like a 287 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: circus bear. Yeah, like somewhat like it was a bear 288 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: that had been like rest or something. But I don't 289 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: buy that either, just zero fear of humans. Tame bear 290 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 1: probably wouldn't have survived. No, and a tame bear would 291 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 1: have gone and tried to get in somebody's refrigerator in 292 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 1: their house. What was so amazing He traveled that far 293 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 1: and never got in trouble, and so they were trying 294 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: to do him a favor by taking him to Louisiana. 295 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: So long live beast. They were trying to It's not 296 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,479 Speaker 1: common for bears to go north and south in their migrations, right, 297 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 1: just not then far, just not that far. I mean 298 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: they might travel. You know, there's documentation in Missouri and 299 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 1: Arkansas Bears traveling like a hundred and fifty miles, but 300 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 1: a thousand miles is very It's just not heard of. 301 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 1: Maybe he wasn't an involved Bear. He was kind of 302 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 1: an emissary or an ambassador for for the Bears. Perhaps, Yeah, 303 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: he's a scout. He might have been a scout. Yeah, 304 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: he was something like, if I don't come back, don't 305 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:12,439 Speaker 1: go south. Uh yeah, I need tell about that mountainin 306 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: you're telling me about m oh that last week I 307 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: was with our buddy Bart George and we're filming his 308 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: mountainlin hazing studying that he's doing over in North Spokane, Washington. 309 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: Would you ought to explain real quick? Oh? Yeah, I 310 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: remember we talked to me. Yeah, you know what. After 311 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 1: being there and hang out with his whole crew for 312 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: a week a couple of times, now I feel like 313 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 1: we should go and do a podcast with the whole 314 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:39,159 Speaker 1: crew and ship chat with him because he's got Bruce 315 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: Duncan as you know, is you know, a real wonder 316 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 1: of this world. I found out the other day Bart 317 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 1: thinks that he is the man living that has treated 318 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,919 Speaker 1: the most cats in this country right now, at roughly 319 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 1: cats because all that research and government and just yeah, 320 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 1: and all the outfitting has done and the fact he's 321 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: been doing it for over fifty years. Um, yeah, pretty interest. 322 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: Two names I'm not gonna say their names, we'll talk 323 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: like but he shown does he win the cat Lady Trophy? 324 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 1: I don't know about that. Uh. And then Jeff Blood 325 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,679 Speaker 1: who's the wildlife specialist for the county's up there. Very 326 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: interesting guy, been trapping and doing stuff his whole life. 327 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:27,199 Speaker 1: But does Bart still with Yeah, the Callisbelt Tribe and 328 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 1: so the Callisbelt Tribe is doing they're the ones that 329 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,679 Speaker 1: are funding the study, doing the study. But he's working 330 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: um inca hoots with Washington Department of Game and Fish. 331 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,440 Speaker 1: And then like I said, the Stevens and uh, I 332 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 1: can't remember the name of the other county now, but 333 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:46,439 Speaker 1: the Sheriff's office. Um, a lot of people are kind 334 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 1: of chipping in to help on the study. But what 335 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: he's trying to do is because they're having just they've 336 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 1: got a real uptick in depredations and human mountain lion 337 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: conflict and interactions, and so he came up with a 338 00:20:57,320 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 1: study to see if hazing might help just kind of 339 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,239 Speaker 1: heap the mountain lions like away from humans a little bit. 340 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: And so how he's doing it is they catch a lion, 341 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,119 Speaker 1: they put a collar on it, they come back a 342 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: week later, they know exactly where the line is. They 343 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 1: walk towards the lion with a speaker on Bart's chest 344 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: on just hanging off his backpack. That's playing the meat 345 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: eater pots. So he still plays the podcast to the lions. 346 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: Yeah that's great. Yeah, no, I got it. While the 347 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 1: problem is the lions are gonna hang out because they're 348 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: so interested. You gotta give those lions interest film on 349 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: top on the collar. Put an interest meter dial on 350 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: on that. While while Sam was explaining the lobster uh 351 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: debate that was recently on, we got to within I 352 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: think eleven yards of the mountain. Yeah, I mean at 353 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 1: eleven yards because you see it yet, No, because she's 354 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 1: like in like you know, three or four furs that 355 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 1: were all bushy, you know around the bottom. They were 356 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,919 Speaker 1: not that close. Yeah, because we're looking at the GPS 357 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 1: like thirty three faiter, what's not any of the three 358 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 1: lines that we did that too, that we walked up 359 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: to the other one was like fifty and then one 360 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: ran at like seventy yards and not kidding me, it's strippy. 361 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: This one the closest one eleven yards and it left. Yeah, 362 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 1: and then that one literally has been living in this 363 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 1: area that if you walk down the hill five minutes, 364 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:33,479 Speaker 1: you're on like a it's a rural highway. But right 365 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 1: on the other side that road is basically like this 366 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 1: little community on like it's like a lake community with 367 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: all these little houses and condos and stuff. And there's 368 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 1: a trail system where this cat's been hanging out. So 369 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,239 Speaker 1: that cat sits there in the trees and listens to 370 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:51,120 Speaker 1: dogs and humans and stuff going by her and cars 371 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,120 Speaker 1: all the time and like totally just you know, that's 372 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: her home. Yeah, it was wild. So anyways, so what 373 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 1: he's on to see if hazing works. So when he 374 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 1: comes back, now he's got this cat on a GPS collar, 375 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 1: so he walks towards it. Playing the podcast at eighty decibles, 376 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,160 Speaker 1: which is quite a loud mind you. I mean it's 377 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: like my voice projected like if I'm excited, it's probably 378 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 1: equal to roughly eighty decibles. And doesn't it feel like 379 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: distinctly sort of post modern that that they will in 380 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:25,919 Speaker 1: the future be listening to you talking about them listening 381 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 1: to this show. It's like staring into a mirror and 382 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:35,680 Speaker 1: there's a mirror behind you. It's getting deep deep um, God, 383 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 1: he's totally lost. I'm just trying to stay on track 384 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: with how so that everybody understand how this problem question 385 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 1: that won't throw us off this particular cat had he 386 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:51,880 Speaker 1: been in trouble before, she had not been. So we're 387 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: hazing a cat that's not been in trouble though. Okay, no, 388 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 1: because you in in these parts are those parts where 389 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: I was, if they've been in actual trouble, like, if 390 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: there's been a depredation, they're dead. Kind of let me 391 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: interject with the thing that Bruce told me, the Bruce 392 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 1: you're talking about after that, when when you know, Washington 393 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 1: had two summers ago had the first fatality from a 394 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: mountalin first human fatality from mounta lion in state history. 395 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: And then then shortly after, like a month or two later, 396 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,920 Speaker 1: Oregon had its first human fatality from a mountain lion 397 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: in years. I mean, it just doesn't happen, right, but 398 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: then it happens twice in one summer and to states 399 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: you know, and then you're like, wow, what's going on? 400 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: So you want to draw conclusions from this, but maybe 401 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 1: there's nothing to be drawn. And when I put it 402 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:39,919 Speaker 1: to Bruce, I was like, what do you think about that? 403 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,920 Speaker 1: You know, on one hand, he's like, it's freak right. 404 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:45,640 Speaker 1: We'll go another hundred years and no one will get 405 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: killed by mountainlin. But if there is something there, what 406 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: he he put out is this like in his whole 407 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 1: career of doing work on lion control for the state. 408 00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 1: In the early days of his career, if someone saw 409 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: a line, you came out and killed it. People didn't 410 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 1: want them around, and he'd be like, you see one 411 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:08,919 Speaker 1: on your porch, it's a deadline. It doesn't matter if 412 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 1: it did anything wrong. Kill the dog, it's just dead. 413 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 1: And he said, as tolerance has increased, and now you 414 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: know you don't just like kill every single line that 415 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 1: crosses the street in front of a car. Um he says, 416 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: it's probably gonna be that there's just gonna be more 417 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 1: interactions because our tolerance is shifted, and we don't just 418 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,440 Speaker 1: dust off every single thing we can dust off because 419 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 1: someone's scared. And there's a lot more lines, there's a 420 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 1: lot more people, there's a lot more people going into 421 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: wild places, So yeahs wild because of you know, us 422 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,199 Speaker 1: moving into them and living in them. I'll tell you 423 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 1: a podcast guest and I can't say his name, but 424 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 1: I know the guy that tracked down that mountline and 425 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,879 Speaker 1: kills him and being serious, I know the trackdown what 426 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: the lion. And I don't know if it was the 427 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,119 Speaker 1: fatality in Washington or Oregon. If it's if it's Washington 428 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 1: we're talking about, we know the same person. Well, I 429 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 1: think I think this was the Oregan lion. And I 430 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 1: know the guy that went to that scene, track that 431 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: line down, I mean went to the you know, the 432 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,119 Speaker 1: site where the person was killed. He said it was 433 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 1: it was a wild story. Yeah, and he it was 434 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,400 Speaker 1: a was that the two mountain bikers? No, that was Washington. 435 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:38,360 Speaker 1: This was a lady, this was this was a woman. Yes, yes, anyway, 436 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: we'll tell you. Yeah, you want to do one upsmanship 437 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 1: on podcast? No? No, no, no bringing up, keep going. Yeah. 438 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: We gotta hurry out because I think we have a 439 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: great one sitting right here across us. More ut of 440 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 1: time here. Um. So they walked towards him playing this podcast, 441 00:26:55,440 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 1: and Bart's watching the GPS. And once the cat leaves 442 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 1: its bed or wherever it's sitting or sleeping at the moment, 443 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,360 Speaker 1: he marks that distance from him to the cat. Then 444 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,360 Speaker 1: he watches the cat and the GPS and see how 445 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 1: far it goes, how far it flees, which he's taking 446 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: other um like environmental data points as well, and basically 447 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: is trying to figure out how much energy is the 448 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:26,440 Speaker 1: cat willing to expend once it's been bumped, and then consequently, 449 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: after it's been hazed multiple times, is it willing to 450 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,920 Speaker 1: expend more energy because it doesn't want to go through 451 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,200 Speaker 1: the hazing again. So once he picks up those two 452 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 1: data points, uh, they cut the dogs loose, which usually 453 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,399 Speaker 1: come from however far behind, however far he had to 454 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 1: walk to get to the lion. They track him to 455 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,719 Speaker 1: the where the fresh mountain lion track is. Then they 456 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,880 Speaker 1: run the lion. It's usually over pretty quickly. They jump 457 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,120 Speaker 1: the line into a tree. The hazing. The first hazing 458 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: actually is via paintball, so they'll sit there and as 459 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:01,640 Speaker 1: many times the cattle take it. The dogs are gone 460 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 1: at this point and as soon as the cat climbs 461 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 1: and jumps out of the tree and runs, that's it. 462 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: They that's the hazing. Then they repeat that with minus 463 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 1: the paintballs three more times and see you know, they're 464 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: again collecting those data points of how close did they 465 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: get and how far did the cat run before it 466 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 1: stopped and chilled out, you know, after it heard the 467 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:26,160 Speaker 1: meter podcast at eighty decibels, in order to determine if 468 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: there is a problem line. Could is it possible to 469 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,920 Speaker 1: get it to change its behavior without euthanizing. Yeah, and again, 470 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: it's probably never gonna happen with problem lins. It'll probably 471 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: just happen with lions that like, like you were saying, 472 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: across the street in a place where there's a bunch 473 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 1: of little kids living around, or there's a lion that's 474 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 1: been seen a couple of times near a boy scout 475 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: camp or whatever. But like I said, as soon as 476 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: they call them to help them not become problem lines. Yeah, 477 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 1: right now, they're north of Spokane. There's a very very 478 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 1: low tolerance for cat and public perception is down, like 479 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: is negative right now with cats, unfortunately, and they aren't happy. 480 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: A lot of them aren't happy with the way that 481 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: the Washington Department Efficient Game has been handling it. And 482 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: so there, you know, that's why Jeff Flood like it 483 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: gets Yeah, it's it's socially, you know, complicated, but so yeah, 484 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: probably it'll just happen with cats that are like in 485 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: areas amongst people, they're seen and hopefully they can hate 486 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: them a little bit and keep them alive. Talking about 487 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: the super line, all right, So one, it has been 488 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 1: tried in the past of relocating lions that were problem lines. 489 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: And again there's so little research done onlines and known 490 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: about lines that people just we just don't know enough yet, right, 491 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: So a lot of times they thought, oh, it's like 492 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: one lion causing the problem, you know, but they shoot 493 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: the line and then you know, three two weeks later, 494 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: you know, in the same zone, another sheep gets killed, right, 495 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: so it wasn't the same line. Anyways, they tried relocating 496 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: something one I forget the exact number, but it was 497 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: up there. It was like miles. They moved it and 498 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: it took the cat literally like two days, and it 499 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: was back at the same farm and killed another sheep 500 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: and it had been ear tagged or marked somehow, so 501 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: they knew that it was the same cat. But what 502 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: was interesting is that it's from that journey it's pads 503 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 1: were just worn off, like there was almost no pad 504 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 1: left on his palm m man. They know they wow. Yeah, 505 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: I don't know if I could pull that off if 506 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,240 Speaker 1: you blindfolded me and dropped me off from about just 507 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 1: the mechanism that works inside of an animal to have 508 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 1: that homing instinct, because it's got it's picking up data 509 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 1: from somewhere. I mean it's not I mean they're they're 510 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: picking up they have some there's something happening. I'd like 511 00:30:58,120 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: to know the mechanics. And yeah, we had a pet 512 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 1: pitches Is one time, and they the neighbor people were 513 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: complaining about him shoot in everybody's house and whatnot. And 514 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: my brother had to go to a work meeting. He 515 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: went quite a way his way, I can't remember what 516 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: it was, but almost a hundred miles away. You had 517 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: to go to an overnight work meeting. So he took 518 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: the pigeons up there and caught him loose. When he 519 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: got home, they were already home. They beat him home. 520 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: But they're famous for that. HM. A new paper published 521 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: in the journal Nature details the release of new DNA 522 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 1: evidence extracted from sediment in Dennis Over Cave. Oh that's 523 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: where the Dennis Open name comes from, right, The vice 524 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 1: versa versa it's a cave in Siberia. Oh it is. 525 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,479 Speaker 1: But did did did the cave get named that because 526 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 1: of what's there? Or did the did the did the 527 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 1: humans humans get named about? Help me out. Damans are 528 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 1: named after the place because we don't really know what 529 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 1: they were called. Okay, So that's so it wasn't that 530 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 1: we knew. We named it somewhere else. There was a man, 531 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 1: there was a modern man that lived in the cave 532 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 1: that was somehow had a name that started with with 533 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: the D as I understood it. So they called it 534 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 1: that kind of cave. This is my understanding of it. 535 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 1: And then they went in and found the stuff and 536 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 1: they called the people that name of the cave. Is 537 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 1: that what you remember? Yeah? I slept in the cave 538 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 1: um no a southern to cave and Wyoming. They had 539 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: been slept in. I slept into cave and Wyoming. They 540 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 1: had been slept in by some cowboy that went crazy 541 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: and ate some people, and they named it after him. 542 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 1: I slept in that cave. You haven't eaten anybody yet, 543 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 1: but you're still young. Okay. Let me back up. New 544 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 1: DNA evidence extracted from sediment in Denisova Cave in Russian Siberia. 545 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 1: Previous analysis of ancient DNA extracted from fossils found in 546 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 1: Denisova Cave have revealed that it was inhabited by Neanderthals, 547 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 1: which sometimes I think they're back to Thal, but for 548 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 1: a while it's tall Neanderthal Neanderthals, falls, dennis Ovans, and 549 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: a hybrid of the two. But few fossilized few fossilized 550 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 1: remains have been found in the cave, so it's unclear 551 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: when different groups visited and in what order. Mhm. But 552 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 1: what's the time periods? To you? It's a long time ago. Now. 553 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 1: This study provides a timeline of occupation with over seven 554 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 1: hundred sentiments samples dated from three hundred thousand to twenty 555 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: thousand years ago, so the cave could have sat there 556 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,959 Speaker 1: for quite a long time between visits comin. It's three 557 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 1: hundred thousand years ago. That's interesting, right. I think part 558 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 1: of the reasons that I have Dennisovan DNA because we 559 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: don't know the story of how indigenous people's came to 560 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 1: the America's truly do we. There's theories about the barn 561 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 1: straight theory, but when you find DNA going that far 562 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: back in Siberia in Siberia means that we're different in 563 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:25,400 Speaker 1: some sense, but we don't really know when indigenous people's 564 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,920 Speaker 1: came here. But to have that antiquity of DNA that 565 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:35,239 Speaker 1: flows into me today is fascinating. Right, tell me, tell 566 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 1: me what you mean by that. I mean, like, are 567 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 1: you saying that there was another You're saying they didn't. 568 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 1: There's other theories of well, I know, there's other theories 569 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: other than the Barren Land Bridge. You know, water access 570 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:50,240 Speaker 1: through the Northwest. Forbid that indigenous people's got on boats 571 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 1: at some point. Figure that out. But we can get 572 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:58,800 Speaker 1: into anthropology and John Wesley Powell and the Powell doctrine 573 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 1: later on, but it just bankes the whole question of 574 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 1: how indigenous people's got here. Yeah, do you do you? Um, 575 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: that's a good question or not a good question, but 576 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:17,360 Speaker 1: it's an interesting point. Do you do you contest or 577 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:18,880 Speaker 1: do you like if you look at sort of the 578 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,800 Speaker 1: academic consensus. Okay, the academic consensus being like some point 579 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 1: in time, probably less than thirty thousand years ago, sometime 580 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:33,280 Speaker 1: around thirty to twenty years ago, the first Americans entered, 581 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,759 Speaker 1: you know, the New World, Okay, entered what's now North 582 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:41,920 Speaker 1: American South America via some sort of land bridge that 583 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 1: connected Alaska with Siberia. Like when you hear it, like 584 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:50,839 Speaker 1: do you do you look? Is your viewpoint? I don't 585 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 1: know is your viewpoint? That sounds right, that sounds wrong, 586 00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 1: It sounds right. But I think there's more to the 587 00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:00,719 Speaker 1: story because now we found all sorts of anthropological evidence 588 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,800 Speaker 1: that indigenous peoples were here thirty two thirty five thousand 589 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,880 Speaker 1: years ago and beyond. So that goes beyond the Younger 590 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,759 Speaker 1: Drives event and makes you question how indigenous people's got 591 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 1: here so so long ago? Where is that? Because I'm 592 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 1: familiar with Cooper's ferry, which would have put things back 593 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:26,440 Speaker 1: to like seventeen thousand years ago, But thirty thousand years ago, 594 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 1: where where is that? Thirty two thousand plus down and 595 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:33,400 Speaker 1: the tip of the Tierra del Fuego. I'll have to 596 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,840 Speaker 1: look at my nose to see exactly who was the 597 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,319 Speaker 1: researchers doing that. But the main fact that points to 598 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 1: me is the actual multiplicity of tribal languages in the 599 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:48,080 Speaker 1: Americas as a function of mathematical time, ten thousand years 600 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 1: was not enough to have the diversity of languages. Um, yeah, 601 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 1: that's an interesting point. Man explained that a little bit 602 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 1: just going to that, just the variation. There's six or 603 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:03,080 Speaker 1: seven main tribal language families in the Americas, but to 604 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:09,560 Speaker 1: have them diversify into such distinct dialects and different language 605 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 1: families would take a lot more than ten thousand years 606 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,240 Speaker 1: to do it. If you're assuming that the Foundation Group, 607 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:18,799 Speaker 1: if you have this assumption that the Foundation Group was 608 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:23,439 Speaker 1: some single wave of individuals who were that's not enough. Yeah, 609 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:25,480 Speaker 1: I got you. But if there's multiple waves of it. 610 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:28,759 Speaker 1: But the questions for me is why is it so 611 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 1: inherent that we can only look at the bearing straight 612 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:33,920 Speaker 1: language theory? Oh? Man, I feel like people looked at 613 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,480 Speaker 1: a lot of theories. You ever hear the Salutrian theory, 614 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 1: which was dismissed on like I think like dismissed on. Well, 615 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 1: let me it's real quick if you if I get 616 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:46,480 Speaker 1: it wrong. But there was this idea that if you 617 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:51,799 Speaker 1: looked at paleolithic, well use the word paleolithic. We're talking 618 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 1: about your when you look at like paleolithic stone technology 619 00:37:56,160 --> 00:38:00,600 Speaker 1: thirty thousand years ago, forty years ago was remarkable, similar 620 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:07,080 Speaker 1: to stone technology of Indigenous Americans from four years ago. 621 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 1: So someone rather than being that different groups of people 622 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 1: came up kinda with the same idea independently. There was 623 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,920 Speaker 1: this idea that ah ha, they had to have been 624 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:20,279 Speaker 1: influenced but Western Europeans or vice versus Dave or vice versa, 625 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:24,160 Speaker 1: and we don't know that. But that makes an interesting 626 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 1: question of was there some type of knowledge that was 627 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 1: inherent to both and then it came from somewhere else. 628 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:37,200 Speaker 1: Certainly there was a lot of Europeans here earlier on 629 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 1: than Columbus. But again, that becomes one of those questions, 630 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 1: why is the Columbus discovery doctrine such a big part 631 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 1: of Western American thought? Do you have a theory on 632 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:53,320 Speaker 1: why it is? I've often wondered that, like why is 633 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 1: it John Wesley Pale? First? Well, but because yeah, because 634 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:04,279 Speaker 1: like clubs never hit, he was never even he never 635 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:05,920 Speaker 1: hit that, he never hit what became the US? Like 636 00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 1: he landed in the West Indies? How how did it 637 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,960 Speaker 1: become to be that that that school children feel that 638 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:18,239 Speaker 1: Columbus it's a great marketing job. But what are they 639 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 1: what were they marketing? How how Europeans discovered America and 640 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:28,319 Speaker 1: civilized it versus looking at the actual history of how 641 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,040 Speaker 1: many people were here in Americas and what they were 642 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:36,239 Speaker 1: doing prior to that. Um, we got a lot of 643 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,439 Speaker 1: balls in the air right now. But I want let's 644 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:43,360 Speaker 1: do this. I want let's talk about this one. We 645 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,160 Speaker 1: got into the we got into the question of how 646 00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,480 Speaker 1: Indigenous Americans arrived and when they arrived the question mark. 647 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,240 Speaker 1: But let's talk for a second. If you could explain 648 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 1: how many people were here? I was hoping we were 649 00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:57,719 Speaker 1: going to get to that. Yeah, I mean, we're like 650 00:39:57,800 --> 00:39:59,480 Speaker 1: out of you know, we're out of or I don't 651 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:01,680 Speaker 1: know for a we're not out of order. Whatever, how 652 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:05,239 Speaker 1: many people were here? A lot of different estimates, Um, 653 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,839 Speaker 1: A bunch of different camps from anthropology historically have gone 654 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 1: over it. But it's been a matter of political debate. Though. 655 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:14,920 Speaker 1: To me, the question is why there seems to be 656 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:22,280 Speaker 1: an influence in anthropology, especially in amateur anthropology, to diminish 657 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,839 Speaker 1: the number of people that were here, and that gets 658 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:31,040 Speaker 1: to to make the crime not as severe. Right, So 659 00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,840 Speaker 1: what's being ignored entirely regardless of how many estimates have 660 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:39,000 Speaker 1: gone up to over a hundred million, with the bulk 661 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 1: of those being in in meso America, So the heartland 662 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,120 Speaker 1: of the food explosion in the America is whether it's 663 00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 1: Peru or or a Central America. That's a high extreme number. 664 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,880 Speaker 1: That is high extreme number, but that was for the 665 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 1: most part, that number is in in Meso America. The 666 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:03,680 Speaker 1: numbers in North America the most liberal or around sixteen million, 667 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,880 Speaker 1: sixteen million people. Now this would have been at the 668 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:13,800 Speaker 1: at the peak pre European pre disease. Pre disease is 669 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:15,960 Speaker 1: the big point. So that's one of the things that 670 00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:19,920 Speaker 1: most people don't understand when understanding the history of America 671 00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:24,160 Speaker 1: is looking at what actually happened here before. So we 672 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:28,800 Speaker 1: have accounts from the Spanish counkyst doors of these advanced 673 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:33,480 Speaker 1: societies and vast numbers of people and then when they 674 00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:36,440 Speaker 1: got their butts kicked and then came back upset that 675 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:39,560 Speaker 1: nobody was there. So one thing one of the things 676 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:43,319 Speaker 1: that anthropology has been able to uncover now national geographics 677 00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:47,520 Speaker 1: doing a lot with this, but use of technology of light, art, etcetera. 678 00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,960 Speaker 1: To find all these ancient villages, whether they're in Central 679 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:55,800 Speaker 1: America or in South America. Um, but a smallpox for 680 00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,360 Speaker 1: the most part, you can throw in some plague, whatever 681 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:01,440 Speaker 1: else you want. There's been traces of it found. But 682 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:07,360 Speaker 1: whether it was Canada now the United States, Central America, 683 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 1: South America. Nolan was immune to the impact of smallpox, 684 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:15,359 Speaker 1: and for the most part, those extremes go between eighty 685 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:21,600 Speaker 1: five and decimation. Rights of the population died. So when 686 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:27,439 Speaker 1: we're talking about and impact on these societies, um, if 687 00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:31,120 Speaker 1: you know which five percent has left? Were they the 688 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:35,800 Speaker 1: most wise probably not. Are they the oldest story keepers? 689 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,600 Speaker 1: Probably not? But what was left out of the five 690 00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:43,520 Speaker 1: percent leaves us with a cultural amnesia. Oh, like coming 691 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:46,400 Speaker 1: out of a pandemic, it sort of gives you and 692 00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,560 Speaker 1: we're upset about what what actual percentage of people died 693 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:53,719 Speaker 1: from the pandemic and we were terrified, what's up? One 694 00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:58,640 Speaker 1: match in the world of everyone you knew and cared 695 00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,319 Speaker 1: and loved about was gone. But that's why I think 696 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,279 Speaker 1: that I'm not trying to draw a pair of Please 697 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:05,880 Speaker 1: don't think I was trying to draw a parallel between 698 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,440 Speaker 1: smallpox epidemic and COVID nineteen. But I was saying, like, 699 00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:14,360 Speaker 1: for a year we were invited to imagine, right, we 700 00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,960 Speaker 1: learned the sort of lexicon of pandemics. You know, a 701 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:22,600 Speaker 1: new generation learned to like think and talk about contagion 702 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:30,319 Speaker 1: and pandemics. Point being. If you imagine that of Americans 703 00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:36,239 Speaker 1: were carried off by COVID nineteen, some amount of time 704 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:41,520 Speaker 1: elapsed and then someone showed up and wanted to sort 705 00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:47,719 Speaker 1: of categorize and describe us culturally, you would probably want 706 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:51,839 Speaker 1: to say, oh, no, no, oh, there's a big misunderstanding. Um, 707 00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:54,960 Speaker 1: we all just died, you see, and we're in the 708 00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:59,960 Speaker 1: you know, we're in a period of tremendous turmoil right now. Mhmm. 709 00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:02,920 Speaker 1: You know it would be similar to it because I 710 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:05,880 Speaker 1: think that you, I don't know if you have feelings 711 00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:11,160 Speaker 1: about if you read he talks in there. I like 712 00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:15,520 Speaker 1: Charles Mann's work a lot. He compares in their accounts 713 00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:22,759 Speaker 1: of people traveling down the Mississippi side, um post smallpox, 714 00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:27,560 Speaker 1: they can't find anybody, right, but they encounter like city 715 00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,120 Speaker 1: or towns and cities and they're like all every but 716 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:34,600 Speaker 1: left was the idea well packed up a win somewhere 717 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,520 Speaker 1: was the best they could come up with. Or unfortunately 718 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:43,239 Speaker 1: that those best cities or trading networks were not made 719 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,560 Speaker 1: by them. So that's you have early anthropology trying to 720 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:50,240 Speaker 1: understand what happened, and they found all these this evidence 721 00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:54,800 Speaker 1: of these mound builders or the Mississippian societies, and the 722 00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:57,000 Speaker 1: first bit of evidence they did was to go to 723 00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:58,800 Speaker 1: the local tribes and say, hey, what do you know 724 00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:03,880 Speaker 1: about these and there we don't know. But when you 725 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:09,319 Speaker 1: put in to the equation that people died, there're gonna 726 00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:15,240 Speaker 1: have culture amnesia of nearly everything, perhaps safe stories, cosmology, 727 00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:19,480 Speaker 1: the remnants of agricultural life ways. If this all would 728 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:22,839 Speaker 1: have started happening in the fifteen hundreds pretty much when 729 00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:27,279 Speaker 1: when pretty much Europeans started coming here and bringing smallpox. 730 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:30,480 Speaker 1: So what you're alluding to is that so that's when 731 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:37,160 Speaker 1: the decimation would have started. But then, like Cahokia, you're 732 00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:40,920 Speaker 1: saying that even at that time, there were remnants of 733 00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:46,680 Speaker 1: ancient civilizations that the natives that were alive knew nothing about. 734 00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:50,800 Speaker 1: So there was some other, potentially some other catastrophic event 735 00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:54,520 Speaker 1: that happened pre European arrival. Is that what we're is 736 00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:56,600 Speaker 1: that what we're saying could be or could just be 737 00:45:56,680 --> 00:46:00,680 Speaker 1: a major change in an urban experiment. So you see 738 00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:07,200 Speaker 1: the rise of the Mississippian culture, uh somewhere around and 739 00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:10,600 Speaker 1: then around one thousand, ten fifty fifty four was the 740 00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:13,040 Speaker 1: big year. It was a big supernova in the sky. 741 00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:15,839 Speaker 1: If we would see a star that hung there ten 742 00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:19,839 Speaker 1: times brighter than than Venus for two or three months, 743 00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:23,600 Speaker 1: and then hung out for another couple of years. Stars 744 00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:25,960 Speaker 1: in the sky seemed to be a very important thing 745 00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:30,160 Speaker 1: to human beings, influenced this religion, et cetera. And so 746 00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:33,480 Speaker 1: you have at some of these places. First and foremost 747 00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:36,600 Speaker 1: was Hokia. Of course we don't know what the name was, 748 00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:39,080 Speaker 1: but that was a local name that they that they 749 00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:41,799 Speaker 1: found from it, but began the rise of an urban 750 00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:45,719 Speaker 1: population and a massive trading network, which goes back to 751 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:50,000 Speaker 1: the question of where did they get that model from. 752 00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:56,759 Speaker 1: Was that an impact of Phoenicians, European societies coming Did 753 00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:00,560 Speaker 1: it come from us and went over there? Very very fascinating, 754 00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:03,200 Speaker 1: but regardless places like a Hokey in the Rise of 755 00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:10,520 Speaker 1: the Mississippian cultures, um dispels the myth that America was 756 00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,960 Speaker 1: untapped wilderness. That's what I love about Charles Man's work, 757 00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:19,520 Speaker 1: especially he's talking about the impact of the Colombian exchange. 758 00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:23,560 Speaker 1: Flora and faun are going over one direction, and flora 759 00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:25,920 Speaker 1: and faun are coming back. How did the potato get 760 00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:30,560 Speaker 1: to Ireland? How did baby corn get to China? Why 761 00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,640 Speaker 1: was their corn found in the ark Ark of the Covenant. 762 00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:38,759 Speaker 1: These are interesting mysteries. What happened to a lot of 763 00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:40,520 Speaker 1: the copper in the Great Lakes that was mind out 764 00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:43,319 Speaker 1: because it probably wasn't mind by indigenous people because there's 765 00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,800 Speaker 1: no record of that being in in vast cases. So 766 00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:49,799 Speaker 1: the mysteries of America go well beyond what our understanding 767 00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:55,560 Speaker 1: is today. But hopefully between anthropology and history and conversations 768 00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:57,600 Speaker 1: like this, you know, eventually we're going to figure it out. 769 00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:11,080 Speaker 1: Can you explain Kahokia a little bit, but like just 770 00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:14,120 Speaker 1: a little more detailed massive trading network. It was an 771 00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:17,319 Speaker 1: empire for sure. There were boundaries, there were markers, there's 772 00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:19,680 Speaker 1: all sorts of stuff we have in the anthropological record. 773 00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:26,600 Speaker 1: You have in the Mississippian cultures. The urban center that 774 00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:30,760 Speaker 1: was Cahokia, and it's at the confluence of the Missouri 775 00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:36,479 Speaker 1: Mississippi and the Ohio Rivers, which effectively give you north, southeast, east, 776 00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:41,239 Speaker 1: and west water passage to bring things there. It was 777 00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:44,720 Speaker 1: a massive trading network for sure because of the rivers. 778 00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,960 Speaker 1: I didn't I didn't realize that. And it's just across 779 00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:52,400 Speaker 1: from modern day St. Louis and Illinois. Yeah, yep. And 780 00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:56,920 Speaker 1: it was it was a trading empire, and with it 781 00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:03,440 Speaker 1: came boundaries um East coast marine shells, um arguably precious 782 00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:08,440 Speaker 1: stones from the southwest Obsidian, many many, many things being 783 00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:13,000 Speaker 1: being traded. But back to the what was happening there 784 00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:18,960 Speaker 1: was these grand stories being told. Ultimately, the primary story, 785 00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:22,759 Speaker 1: or arguably the oldest story in North America was about 786 00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:26,120 Speaker 1: the first humans. So we have first Father and first Mother. 787 00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:30,400 Speaker 1: Oftentimes she's known as Mother Corn or Earth's Mother, and 788 00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:33,600 Speaker 1: they had a number of progeny depending on the tribes, 789 00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:40,520 Speaker 1: and ultimately there were ten sons and two daughters. And 790 00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:43,880 Speaker 1: that was in the time of giants, and the giants 791 00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:47,400 Speaker 1: were competing with us as well, and we have evidence 792 00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:51,600 Speaker 1: of this through the anspological record. Ancestors of my mother 793 00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:56,719 Speaker 1: tribe um the Omaha, at a place called Picture Cave, 794 00:49:56,760 --> 00:50:02,360 Speaker 1: about a hundred miles outside of the urban center of 795 00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:05,120 Speaker 1: of Kahokia. It's one of these places that has been 796 00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:08,320 Speaker 1: so desecrated that they won't tell you exactly where it is, 797 00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:11,480 Speaker 1: but there's all these pictographs of all these stories battles 798 00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:16,399 Speaker 1: between the giants and First Father, and within that tree 799 00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:20,000 Speaker 1: of life, the first humans of a course, were from above, 800 00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:22,120 Speaker 1: so they were part of the upper realm, and first 801 00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:25,360 Speaker 1: Father he also carried the name of White Plume. But 802 00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:29,040 Speaker 1: ultimately he became interested and understanding the powers of the 803 00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:32,759 Speaker 1: lower realm. But probably that notion of Yen and Young, 804 00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:36,040 Speaker 1: that there's a sacred balance and harmony. And he said, 805 00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:40,320 Speaker 1: um a spirit wolf down to the lower realm to explore. 806 00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:44,080 Speaker 1: But that was taboo, and so one of the water 807 00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:47,800 Speaker 1: spirits ate it. First Father became upset with that and 808 00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:50,239 Speaker 1: made his own journey from the upper realm down to 809 00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:54,760 Speaker 1: the lower watery realm. And some of our stories he gambled, 810 00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:58,160 Speaker 1: and some of the stories they dueled. But the water spirit, 811 00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:02,479 Speaker 1: it was a beaver spirit. Ah won the battle, tuck 812 00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:07,399 Speaker 1: his life and kept his head and his body, send 813 00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:11,279 Speaker 1: it back up soulless without it. And thus enters the 814 00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:15,000 Speaker 1: stories of one of the sons called Red Horn and 815 00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:17,759 Speaker 1: his two sons, the twins. I'm referred to it as 816 00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:22,520 Speaker 1: the Red Horn trilogy. But he was the one that 817 00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:27,440 Speaker 1: you find all of these wonderful flint clay card figurines 818 00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:31,719 Speaker 1: out of spy row in the outskirts of Kahokia. But 819 00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:35,040 Speaker 1: tell the story of him. He had a clan name. 820 00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:37,160 Speaker 1: It was probably along the lines of He who was 821 00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:39,360 Speaker 1: hit with deer lungs, probably had to do with the 822 00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:43,840 Speaker 1: clan taboo, probably a dear clan type of name. But 823 00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:46,640 Speaker 1: think things that you can't touch, things that you have 824 00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:49,320 Speaker 1: the rights to do, and things you can't do, and 825 00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:52,759 Speaker 1: that's probably had to refer to that. And eventually he 826 00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:57,400 Speaker 1: became a very very powerful character in this Mississippi cosmology 827 00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:02,840 Speaker 1: and history, and ultimately the giants became agitated with the humans, 828 00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:06,680 Speaker 1: and these battles occurred back and forth and contests. In 829 00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:09,680 Speaker 1: one there was a race and the giants, being bigger, 830 00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:12,200 Speaker 1: we're gonna win, except for the youngest one. He who 831 00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:15,399 Speaker 1: was hit with deer lungs, turned himself into an arrow 832 00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:19,680 Speaker 1: and won the race. Then they had a great stickball match, 833 00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:22,520 Speaker 1: whether you look at the ball courts of meso America 834 00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:27,800 Speaker 1: or the variations today amongst stickball of the Cherokee, we 835 00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:32,360 Speaker 1: called it the little brother of warum versions of shinny, 836 00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:35,239 Speaker 1: which is probably influenced a lot of field hockey and 837 00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:40,160 Speaker 1: of course lacrosse. Little brother of war. Stick games were 838 00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:44,680 Speaker 1: preparation for future yes or brutal I played when I 839 00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:50,600 Speaker 1: was young brutal America there played to the death weren't there, 840 00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:52,200 Speaker 1: and they did in this case too, and that's what 841 00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:56,000 Speaker 1: happened was he who was hit with deer lungs became 842 00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:59,480 Speaker 1: the most valuable player and they beat the Giants and 843 00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:03,680 Speaker 1: VP and all of all of the Giants team we 844 00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:09,000 Speaker 1: were killed except for one woman. And she was a 845 00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:11,799 Speaker 1: red haired Giantist and she was said to have been 846 00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:14,400 Speaker 1: very beautiful. The tribes of different names for her of 847 00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:17,759 Speaker 1: what she wore, etcetera. And she said, you may kill 848 00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:21,160 Speaker 1: me or I will take one of you as my husband. 849 00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:26,520 Speaker 1: And so ultimately that's that union between her and the 850 00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:30,680 Speaker 1: figure that was to become Red Horn. They had the 851 00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:36,879 Speaker 1: thunder twins. Ultimately, in a scene of domestic bliss um, 852 00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:40,680 Speaker 1: he who was hit with deer lungs was then married 853 00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:43,200 Speaker 1: to the Giantists. And depending on the tribe, the stories 854 00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:46,279 Speaker 1: changed a little bit, but ultimately she was teasing him 855 00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:47,840 Speaker 1: as she was cleaning the deer and was going to 856 00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:49,799 Speaker 1: take the lungs that was going to throw them at him, 857 00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:53,680 Speaker 1: and he says, no, don't do that, and all the 858 00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:55,920 Speaker 1: brothers said, oh, don't do that. We were just teasing, 859 00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:59,920 Speaker 1: and he explains to everyone, no, you really shouldn't tease 860 00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:04,880 Speaker 1: me because I'm not really your brother. I'm from the 861 00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:08,080 Speaker 1: Upper Realm, and I was sent by Earthmaker. So he 862 00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:11,640 Speaker 1: had a series of four trickster heroes that came here, 863 00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:13,839 Speaker 1: and he was the fifth in the final to help 864 00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:21,680 Speaker 1: Um Bringer of knowledge to humanity. And ultimately after that 865 00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:24,840 Speaker 1: he explained his true form, and he spit into his 866 00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:28,399 Speaker 1: hands and covered his big long braid, and it became 867 00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:32,319 Speaker 1: the color of red ochre. Thus all things sacred back 868 00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:40,000 Speaker 1: to the impact of the Neanderthal's Neanderthals, Dennis Ovans, all 869 00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:44,920 Speaker 1: of these things about ritual and art, etcetera. That was 870 00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:50,399 Speaker 1: our vision here. Ultimately, after becoming Um Red Horn, then 871 00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:54,080 Speaker 1: he also became his star visage as well, became the 872 00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:56,480 Speaker 1: Morning Star. And there's many many stories and all the 873 00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:00,920 Speaker 1: Plains tribe and the Suing tribes about what that role was. 874 00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:06,520 Speaker 1: But then became the ultimate Battles as his son's the 875 00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:09,640 Speaker 1: thunder Twins went down and fought the water Spirit and 876 00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:12,120 Speaker 1: defeated it and brought back the head of First Father, 877 00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:17,200 Speaker 1: and so that his body became unified once again and 878 00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:20,880 Speaker 1: became the great ascension story of North America. So all 879 00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:27,640 Speaker 1: great spiritual destined reverse become the focus of cosmology and 880 00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:32,400 Speaker 1: and religion for that matter, whether it's Jesus or Mohammed 881 00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:35,320 Speaker 1: or First Father. In this case, this was the story 882 00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:39,160 Speaker 1: that was celebrated at Khokia, was the spiritual ascension of 883 00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:44,880 Speaker 1: First Father back to the Upper Realm. So our stories 884 00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:51,400 Speaker 1: are Abraham and many sons said Father Abraham. I mean, 885 00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:54,120 Speaker 1: I just think it's just so interesting that. I mean, 886 00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:56,759 Speaker 1: it's something, it's something so big and giant, which because 887 00:55:56,800 --> 00:56:00,359 Speaker 1: you're saying it's it possibly was the largest city ever 888 00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:03,800 Speaker 1: on this continent or the earliest. At the time it 889 00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:07,400 Speaker 1: was the third largest city in the world. Yeah, you know, 890 00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:10,640 Speaker 1: I've never heard of it. You ever heard of it, Steve, No, 891 00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:14,480 Speaker 1: I only heard of you know what you would describe 892 00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:18,480 Speaker 1: as like the Mississippian culture, the mound builders. But no, 893 00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:20,560 Speaker 1: I don't, I don't. I'm not familiar. Can we get 894 00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:22,799 Speaker 1: into the mounds a little bit? She's even reading your 895 00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:28,120 Speaker 1: chapter of the book. I'm not a like sure, Like 896 00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:30,440 Speaker 1: what were the mounds all about? And why are they 897 00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:34,319 Speaker 1: associated with these people? You know, I visited that Serpent Mound. Yeah, 898 00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:35,839 Speaker 1: I can tell you a lot about that one too. 899 00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:41,600 Speaker 1: It's absolutely fascinating with its links to Rko astronomy, as above, 900 00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:45,759 Speaker 1: so below UM, so many of the mounds as as 901 00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:50,440 Speaker 1: we're we're finding, especially through k astronomy, that it was 902 00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:53,680 Speaker 1: very much looking to the stars and trying to take 903 00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:58,640 Speaker 1: those stories and to plant them here, make a connection 904 00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:03,600 Speaker 1: between the two. And you had the rise of places 905 00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:07,879 Speaker 1: like Cochia. You see the role of corn and ben 906 00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:13,560 Speaker 1: as squash coming to North America, and we're that those 907 00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:18,240 Speaker 1: modes of agriculture were than population exploded of indigenous peoples. 908 00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:23,360 Speaker 1: Tied that with the religion of the stories of First 909 00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:26,280 Speaker 1: Father and the ascension, and then you have this this 910 00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:31,000 Speaker 1: this recipe for civilization. Let's where food and their marriage 911 00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:35,160 Speaker 1: came together to form civilization. At the confluence of those 912 00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:38,880 Speaker 1: two is where you find civilization here. But it became 913 00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:41,880 Speaker 1: a massive trading network and empire, and those stories were 914 00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:46,120 Speaker 1: shared trading. For the most part. At the city center, 915 00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:51,880 Speaker 1: you had fifteen to two people at the actual um 916 00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:55,560 Speaker 1: epicenter of all those mounds there, and there were hundreds 917 00:57:55,560 --> 00:57:58,480 Speaker 1: of them, and we've lost many of them um due 918 00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:03,400 Speaker 1: to the can struction and progress of the St. Louis, etcetera. 919 00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:09,600 Speaker 1: But ultimately you had this Grand Plaza and the Grand 920 00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:15,240 Speaker 1: Mound itself now known as Monks mound. But all of 921 00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:19,760 Speaker 1: those were built in fairly rapid succession. You see, the 922 00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:23,800 Speaker 1: reign of Khokia from around ten fifty too, began to 923 00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:28,000 Speaker 1: wane around twelve. And we're not exactly these mounds. Just 924 00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:31,600 Speaker 1: to give perspective, Oh, I want to say that Monks Mount. 925 00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:33,800 Speaker 1: I have to look at my notes. Um. I mean, 926 00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:37,720 Speaker 1: they're they're big. They're big, maybe fifty feet in elevation. 927 00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:40,240 Speaker 1: I'm just guessing off higher than that, probably a hundred 928 00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:45,959 Speaker 1: fifties two hundred stairs up those and there. The question 929 00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:49,080 Speaker 1: is how did they get built? You know, they're right 930 00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:51,280 Speaker 1: well right, but like how did they or you know, 931 00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:53,400 Speaker 1: one of the questions is how did they move that 932 00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:57,959 Speaker 1: much earth? A lot of people, I know, the Serpent Mound, 933 00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:03,720 Speaker 1: they didn't know it was there until air travel. It 934 00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:06,360 Speaker 1: was recognized from the air. They thought it was like 935 00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:10,480 Speaker 1: just a natural but from the air you could realize 936 00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:14,560 Speaker 1: it was his hundreds of yards long serpent with the 937 00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:17,760 Speaker 1: head and a tongue. Oh, I see, no one knew 938 00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:20,120 Speaker 1: the people that the people who are living there didn't 939 00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:23,280 Speaker 1: know it was there until someone's like, holy cow, it's huge, 940 00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:26,840 Speaker 1: and we've got all there's all kinds of stuff about 941 00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:29,400 Speaker 1: its orientation which is in this A lot of that 942 00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:35,280 Speaker 1: comes from my dear friend Dr William Remain. He's probably 943 00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:39,000 Speaker 1: the leading r Q astronomy expert and he's done work 944 00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:42,800 Speaker 1: all around, but started in the eighties with Serpent Mound 945 00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:46,440 Speaker 1: that the undulations of the curve on one side are 946 00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:50,440 Speaker 1: are tied to movements of the Sun, on the other 947 00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:53,720 Speaker 1: side movements of the Moon. But what he discovered even 948 00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:58,120 Speaker 1: more importantly after that, along with others, was that its 949 00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:04,920 Speaker 1: orientation is pointing towards stellar North, so the head and 950 01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:10,520 Speaker 1: the tail lineup perfectly. But it also helps measure um 951 01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:14,919 Speaker 1: what is at the center? What is the poll star? 952 01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:18,440 Speaker 1: What is it today? What was it five thousand years ago? 953 01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:22,439 Speaker 1: And regardless of the wobble or procession of the Earth, 954 01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:26,240 Speaker 1: it's still different. Radiants could point to the same thing. 955 01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:29,600 Speaker 1: But the story itself, you'll find within most of the 956 01:00:29,640 --> 01:00:32,560 Speaker 1: tribes of Cherokees, we have a story about that, and 957 01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:35,400 Speaker 1: it's about how the Serpent ain't the Sun, but it's 958 01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:39,880 Speaker 1: a constellation that you see at sunrise on summer solstice, 959 01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:43,080 Speaker 1: that that constellation would would move towards the rising Sun, 960 01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:46,120 Speaker 1: and it appears that it was eating the Sun. But 961 01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:48,200 Speaker 1: we still have those stories today, and that's there's some 962 01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:50,600 Speaker 1: aspect of that in the Serpent mound too, or somewhere, 963 01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:52,120 Speaker 1: or at least I think it was eating an egg 964 01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:55,840 Speaker 1: or some mound effigy I thought was eating an egg. 965 01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:59,120 Speaker 1: Then someone say's probably a sun. Yeah, yeah, it's it's 966 01:00:59,120 --> 01:01:01,280 Speaker 1: hard to say. But then you also have had parallels 967 01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:06,640 Speaker 1: between what does the egg mean metaphorically? Is it knowledge Sophia? 968 01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:09,360 Speaker 1: And then you get these comparables to the rest of 969 01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:12,560 Speaker 1: Europe as well. You know, what is the sacred feminine, 970 01:01:12,600 --> 01:01:17,040 Speaker 1: what is the sacred masculine? And perhaps that mound work 971 01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:20,760 Speaker 1: is a is a combination of both. At the very least, 972 01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:24,360 Speaker 1: it was the rise of civilization in the Americas well 973 01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:30,320 Speaker 1: before we knew about the same type of civilization from Europeans. 974 01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:35,240 Speaker 1: So typically we define civilization as mass, food and religion 975 01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:41,120 Speaker 1: coming together. So the rise of the three sister agricultural 976 01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:45,200 Speaker 1: life ways probably came up from from meso America. In 977 01:01:45,360 --> 01:01:48,640 Speaker 1: terms of cosmologies, that are, they're all very similar. But 978 01:01:49,160 --> 01:01:53,560 Speaker 1: you had explained the term cosmology cosmology, you know just 979 01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:58,560 Speaker 1: where we come from. Um, all of our stories are 980 01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:01,840 Speaker 1: indigenous stories, so most part are are very well tied together. 981 01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:07,040 Speaker 1: But our original stories talk about that originally our homelands 982 01:02:07,120 --> 01:02:09,840 Speaker 1: were in the Seven Sisters constellation of ple eight s, 983 01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:12,720 Speaker 1: and that we came here on what most of the 984 01:02:12,760 --> 01:02:17,920 Speaker 1: tribes called journey of the souls, and and our and 985 01:02:18,040 --> 01:02:24,800 Speaker 1: my mother's tribal cosmology. Um the story talks about that 986 01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:28,360 Speaker 1: in the beginning, our souls were like stars in the sky, 987 01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:32,360 Speaker 1: thought but no form. And eventually one of those souls, 988 01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:36,280 Speaker 1: one of those stars, asked the question of itself, who 989 01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:40,520 Speaker 1: am I? And that question burned within that soul, that star. 990 01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:45,200 Speaker 1: So that star went to its mother, the moon, And 991 01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:49,120 Speaker 1: that's part of the cosmology that all things sacred feminine 992 01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:53,840 Speaker 1: come come from the moon, and said mother, who am I? Oh, 993 01:02:54,240 --> 01:02:56,120 Speaker 1: my child, she said, I was afraid you were going 994 01:02:56,160 --> 01:03:00,400 Speaker 1: to ask that question. Hurry before you forget, go ask 995 01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:03,200 Speaker 1: your father. So he goes to his father, the son 996 01:03:03,960 --> 01:03:08,320 Speaker 1: the sacred masculine father, who am I? And he immediately 997 01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:12,440 Speaker 1: chastised him and says, my child, be very very careful 998 01:03:12,520 --> 01:03:15,360 Speaker 1: with that question who am I? For that is the 999 01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:19,320 Speaker 1: most important question we have as a soul. But that star, 1000 01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:21,960 Speaker 1: that soul was like us today, and gossipy can't keep 1001 01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:23,960 Speaker 1: a secret. And soon there were four of them that 1002 01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:28,600 Speaker 1: asked the same question, and that signals the beginning of 1003 01:03:28,640 --> 01:03:30,400 Speaker 1: the journey of the souls through the dark rift of 1004 01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:33,840 Speaker 1: the Milky Way to hear our. Stories say that were 1005 01:03:33,840 --> 01:03:37,440 Speaker 1: guided by Venus, the Morning Star to get here, the 1006 01:03:37,480 --> 01:03:40,240 Speaker 1: planet next to us. And when those souls landed, it 1007 01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:44,120 Speaker 1: was an all watery planet, and they took the form 1008 01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:47,200 Speaker 1: of four animals, and this story is basically referred to 1009 01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:50,840 Speaker 1: as the Earth Diver. Meth and his variations almost crossed 1010 01:03:50,880 --> 01:03:53,920 Speaker 1: all the tribes and they took the form of four 1011 01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:56,880 Speaker 1: animals and depending on the tribe, but ultimately one of 1012 01:03:56,960 --> 01:04:00,919 Speaker 1: them dives down into the deep waters and brings back 1013 01:04:01,000 --> 01:04:04,960 Speaker 1: up the clay in the earth, and Turtle was the 1014 01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:07,760 Speaker 1: first one that asked that question. The soul said, who 1015 01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:11,680 Speaker 1: am I? I felt so bad that gotten the other 1016 01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:16,160 Speaker 1: ones into this new mess, this new conundrum that asked 1017 01:04:16,840 --> 01:04:18,960 Speaker 1: to put the clay on its back, and then that 1018 01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:23,280 Speaker 1: became Turtle Island. And that's the story of this continent 1019 01:04:23,640 --> 01:04:26,880 Speaker 1: and us coming to this world and the first humans 1020 01:04:26,960 --> 01:04:29,360 Speaker 1: that came out of the water. After that, that's the 1021 01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:36,880 Speaker 1: beginnings of the cosmology, the beginning before the beginning. That's 1022 01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:39,880 Speaker 1: the story that's in the braiding sweet grass. Yes, because 1023 01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:41,920 Speaker 1: we all have different variations. As you told that story, 1024 01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:45,120 Speaker 1: I was, I was, I thought that's where you were going. 1025 01:04:45,240 --> 01:04:50,160 Speaker 1: But Robbins tribe, the Potawatoms, there have a variation of 1026 01:04:50,720 --> 01:04:54,800 Speaker 1: woman who fell from the sky sky woman. So is 1027 01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:56,800 Speaker 1: it fair to say and just just so unclear that 1028 01:04:56,880 --> 01:05:01,440 Speaker 1: then cosmology could be like an indig this religion based 1029 01:05:01,640 --> 01:05:07,520 Speaker 1: absolute stars. Absolutely, okay, And so we have all those variations, 1030 01:05:07,680 --> 01:05:11,680 Speaker 1: which is another function of time. Those stories. That story 1031 01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:16,080 Speaker 1: in his origin comes out of Siberia, so there are 1032 01:05:16,360 --> 01:05:21,920 Speaker 1: there's similar there's a similar narrative or that that's from 1033 01:05:22,000 --> 01:05:26,000 Speaker 1: people there. Yes, and then you can measure the variations 1034 01:05:26,080 --> 01:05:27,960 Speaker 1: of the story based over time to try to get 1035 01:05:28,000 --> 01:05:33,840 Speaker 1: an understanding of the antiquity of that story. Huh. From 1036 01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:41,320 Speaker 1: an an indigenous perspective, stories or everything the watery planet. Um, 1037 01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:45,600 Speaker 1: that's very common, right, and even in even even in 1038 01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:50,480 Speaker 1: like the Judeo Christian tradition, it's common. There's there's an 1039 01:05:50,520 --> 01:05:52,920 Speaker 1: element of it with the with the notions of the 1040 01:05:53,000 --> 01:06:00,240 Speaker 1: great flood like a watery planet. Huh. There were a 1041 01:06:00,280 --> 01:06:03,120 Speaker 1: lot of parallels that I saw in so the book. 1042 01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:06,360 Speaker 1: We discussed this earlier. Taylor and I did about this 1043 01:06:06,520 --> 01:06:09,520 Speaker 1: Brady sweet Grass brook uh Robin, how do you say 1044 01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:13,200 Speaker 1: your last name? Yeah, but I saw a lot of 1045 01:06:13,280 --> 01:06:16,280 Speaker 1: parallels between. I mean, you didn't have to stretch it 1046 01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:20,560 Speaker 1: very far to see parallels between that story at some point, 1047 01:06:20,680 --> 01:06:22,720 Speaker 1: and you know the Book of Genesis, I mean there 1048 01:06:22,800 --> 01:06:26,000 Speaker 1: was a tree that had that people were punished for 1049 01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:29,520 Speaker 1: for eating the fruit of and different things. But just yeah, 1050 01:06:30,240 --> 01:06:31,920 Speaker 1: it was it was two different trees, the Tree of 1051 01:06:32,000 --> 01:06:35,680 Speaker 1: Knowledge and the Tree of life. So back to the cosmology, 1052 01:06:35,840 --> 01:06:41,240 Speaker 1: the tree of life is what's at the centerpiece of 1053 01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:44,800 Speaker 1: an understanding of a of a physical attribute of that. 1054 01:06:45,040 --> 01:06:48,720 Speaker 1: So we have the great Tree of Life, and it 1055 01:06:48,880 --> 01:06:52,280 Speaker 1: is the axis moondy of the universe. And in its 1056 01:06:52,360 --> 01:06:58,080 Speaker 1: branches is the upper realm, ruled by the thunderbans, the thunderers, 1057 01:06:58,840 --> 01:07:02,720 Speaker 1: and there and their messengers, the thunderbirds. And then the 1058 01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:06,200 Speaker 1: roots of the Tree of life is the lower watery realm, 1059 01:07:06,280 --> 01:07:09,840 Speaker 1: which is inhabited by water spirits. Chief amongst them is 1060 01:07:09,880 --> 01:07:13,040 Speaker 1: the underwater panther or the underwater serpent Cherokees we call 1061 01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:18,840 Speaker 1: her Uktana, but parallels to stories from esso America for sure. 1062 01:07:19,640 --> 01:07:25,800 Speaker 1: Kukl Khan quite uniquotal etcetera. But these are the things, Steve, 1063 01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:30,440 Speaker 1: that I get immersed in. The stories and storytelling captivating 1064 01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:35,360 Speaker 1: to most people, children and adults alike. I've discovered if you, 1065 01:07:36,160 --> 01:07:39,960 Speaker 1: when you look at your history, the history of your people, Um, 1066 01:07:42,040 --> 01:07:48,760 Speaker 1: is it puzzling to you that that people like us, 1067 01:07:48,960 --> 01:07:52,200 Speaker 1: like Western Europeans. Is it puzzling to you that, uh, 1068 01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:57,840 Speaker 1: we're probably that were more drawn to those questions as well, 1069 01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:02,600 Speaker 1: like more drawn to the history, the deep history of 1070 01:08:03,200 --> 01:08:07,600 Speaker 1: of this continent, then we are to the deep history 1071 01:08:07,680 --> 01:08:12,120 Speaker 1: of our own continent, where our where our ancestors came from. Like, 1072 01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:15,480 Speaker 1: I really have no desire, you know, I don't have 1073 01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:19,640 Speaker 1: I don't wonder about Western Europe. I don't wonder about Paleolt. 1074 01:08:19,800 --> 01:08:21,080 Speaker 1: I mean a little bit, but I don't like pay 1075 01:08:21,120 --> 01:08:25,479 Speaker 1: attention to the Paleolithic tradition there. But I'm very interested 1076 01:08:25,479 --> 01:08:28,439 Speaker 1: in the deep history here. But I could, but I 1077 01:08:28,479 --> 01:08:31,960 Speaker 1: could see that you would view it as you might are, 1078 01:08:32,120 --> 01:08:33,920 Speaker 1: you might view it as like not my history at all, 1079 01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:37,200 Speaker 1: But but somehow I feel like it is. Is that 1080 01:08:37,360 --> 01:08:39,120 Speaker 1: is that troubling to you that I feel that way? Now, 1081 01:08:39,200 --> 01:08:40,880 Speaker 1: It's not troubling at all, because I think that's so 1082 01:08:41,000 --> 01:08:44,040 Speaker 1: important Um. One of the reasons that I want to 1083 01:08:44,120 --> 01:08:47,120 Speaker 1: come and share on podcasts like this and to learn 1084 01:08:47,200 --> 01:08:50,280 Speaker 1: from others is to have a deeper understanding of what 1085 01:08:50,479 --> 01:08:54,280 Speaker 1: is the provenance of this land. It's fascinating all those 1086 01:08:54,320 --> 01:08:58,600 Speaker 1: stories that I've just shared. I mean, yeah, truths is 1087 01:08:58,640 --> 01:09:02,960 Speaker 1: greater than any fiction. The stories that happened at these places, 1088 01:09:03,040 --> 01:09:05,960 Speaker 1: the stories that were told about the the giants and 1089 01:09:06,439 --> 01:09:12,040 Speaker 1: the thunder beings and all these different aspects of indigenous cosmology. 1090 01:09:12,360 --> 01:09:16,360 Speaker 1: It gives a provenance to this country that most people 1091 01:09:16,400 --> 01:09:19,680 Speaker 1: don't realize is there, but it belongs to us all 1092 01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:23,559 Speaker 1: a greater understanding what was happening here. There's lessons in history, 1093 01:09:23,920 --> 01:09:28,040 Speaker 1: things to be gleaned and to be learned. Um. Perhaps 1094 01:09:28,080 --> 01:09:30,679 Speaker 1: even with with Kahki and some of the others, there 1095 01:09:31,320 --> 01:09:36,040 Speaker 1: are forebodings of what happens with large urban experiments. Can 1096 01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:40,000 Speaker 1: you can you talk the giant people? I have heard, 1097 01:09:40,840 --> 01:09:46,160 Speaker 1: um Bigfoot enthusiasts here. We talked about this before this ship. 1098 01:09:46,960 --> 01:09:53,120 Speaker 1: Bigfoot enthusiasts like that story, and they will sometimes say, oh, 1099 01:09:53,280 --> 01:09:58,640 Speaker 1: you can find evidence of Bigfoot in the mythologies of 1100 01:09:58,760 --> 01:10:01,719 Speaker 1: Native Americans, because they talked about a race of giants. 1101 01:10:03,120 --> 01:10:06,800 Speaker 1: Has to have been Bigfoot's um Do you do you 1102 01:10:06,880 --> 01:10:13,519 Speaker 1: know I'm voicing I'm voicing, you know, a fringe gentleman 1103 01:10:13,680 --> 01:10:16,519 Speaker 1: of you know, I'm voicing the perspective of a fringe 1104 01:10:16,600 --> 01:10:19,680 Speaker 1: element of big Foot enthusiasts. Only two. I'm only doing 1105 01:10:19,720 --> 01:10:23,320 Speaker 1: that to invite you as a way of inviting you 1106 01:10:23,479 --> 01:10:29,240 Speaker 1: to um offer any insights. Is it a metaphor? Like? 1107 01:10:29,760 --> 01:10:33,000 Speaker 1: Is it a metaphor for something? What was the rate 1108 01:10:33,120 --> 01:10:36,040 Speaker 1: like in the mythology or in the cosmology? What was 1109 01:10:36,120 --> 01:10:39,200 Speaker 1: the race of giants? Do I mean? Does it refer 1110 01:10:39,320 --> 01:10:43,759 Speaker 1: to a specific thing? Um? You find these stories throughout 1111 01:10:43,920 --> 01:10:48,440 Speaker 1: a lot of the tribes um back home in Nebraska. 1112 01:10:48,479 --> 01:10:51,840 Speaker 1: But we say niska, that's the Omaha word for the 1113 01:10:51,880 --> 01:10:58,280 Speaker 1: Platte River means flat water. But niska, that's a that's 1114 01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:03,479 Speaker 1: a beautiful word. Yeah, and uh, I think it was 1115 01:11:03,520 --> 01:11:08,320 Speaker 1: called the plant or the Missouri River, which we call 1116 01:11:08,680 --> 01:11:11,080 Speaker 1: ni shuta, which you means smoke on the water and 1117 01:11:11,160 --> 01:11:14,920 Speaker 1: what and all the all the Plains tribes give it 1118 01:11:14,960 --> 01:11:17,200 Speaker 1: the same name in their language. But what it refers 1119 01:11:17,200 --> 01:11:21,080 Speaker 1: to is before that river was damned up and they 1120 01:11:21,120 --> 01:11:24,280 Speaker 1: had this powerful, you know, kinetic motion, especially in the 1121 01:11:24,320 --> 01:11:27,439 Speaker 1: winter back when winters used to be really cold. Then 1122 01:11:27,520 --> 01:11:30,320 Speaker 1: you would see this frozen fog bank that would go 1123 01:11:30,520 --> 01:11:33,040 Speaker 1: above the water. And that's what it means, smoke on 1124 01:11:33,080 --> 01:11:36,639 Speaker 1: the water. And uh, we have lots of stories around 1125 01:11:37,080 --> 01:11:39,720 Speaker 1: around that. I want to I want to get I 1126 01:11:39,760 --> 01:11:43,400 Speaker 1: gotta interrupt. So there's two questions. There's gonna be three 1127 01:11:43,439 --> 01:11:45,519 Speaker 1: in a second. Well, I want to hear him talking 1128 01:11:45,520 --> 01:11:48,160 Speaker 1: about Bigfoot, but also want him to answer your question 1129 01:11:48,160 --> 01:11:50,400 Speaker 1: about where the giants came from. Yeah, but I want 1130 01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:53,479 Speaker 1: him to say to say a whole sentence in in 1131 01:11:53,840 --> 01:11:56,360 Speaker 1: your native language. I don't care what the hell you 1132 01:11:56,400 --> 01:11:57,880 Speaker 1: could say something bad about me. I just want to 1133 01:11:57,920 --> 01:12:00,080 Speaker 1: hear because I like hearing the river names. Well, I 1134 01:12:00,160 --> 01:12:03,960 Speaker 1: would be truly remiss if I didn't introduce myself properly. 1135 01:12:04,479 --> 01:12:07,679 Speaker 1: There you go, who abe that wannga They we weat 1136 01:12:07,720 --> 01:12:12,400 Speaker 1: the Bugisha hunger shanu in case of a long la 1137 01:12:13,160 --> 01:12:17,280 Speaker 1: uma habbedy. So that's our standard introduction that we would 1138 01:12:17,320 --> 01:12:19,840 Speaker 1: say in our tribe about the name that we carry. 1139 01:12:20,360 --> 01:12:24,599 Speaker 1: So aw that wanda. That means that we're all related. 1140 01:12:25,280 --> 01:12:29,800 Speaker 1: So whether it's white man in Indian or from whatever 1141 01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:33,560 Speaker 1: part of the world you're from, you would mean this 1142 01:12:33,680 --> 01:12:36,200 Speaker 1: is meeting a new person. So you could say we're 1143 01:12:36,240 --> 01:12:39,880 Speaker 1: all one. Say it again, um abe that wanga they 1144 01:12:40,400 --> 01:12:42,679 Speaker 1: you're not off the hook on big Foot. We're gonna, 1145 01:12:42,720 --> 01:12:45,479 Speaker 1: We're gonna okay. So that's so that's the beginning of 1146 01:12:45,520 --> 01:12:49,080 Speaker 1: the greeting. And so that that translation. I carry the 1147 01:12:49,160 --> 01:12:54,360 Speaker 1: name of Bison Maine of the earth and Bison clan 1148 01:12:54,960 --> 01:12:56,920 Speaker 1: of the people that move against the current. That's what 1149 01:12:58,120 --> 01:13:01,280 Speaker 1: Omaha is. The corruption of um Maha means the people 1150 01:13:01,320 --> 01:13:02,920 Speaker 1: that move against the current. What it had to do 1151 01:13:03,080 --> 01:13:08,080 Speaker 1: with are brother and sister tribes within our language family, 1152 01:13:08,439 --> 01:13:11,360 Speaker 1: and at a certain point we separated from each other, 1153 01:13:12,360 --> 01:13:15,200 Speaker 1: probably in the diaspora coming out of the Great Lakes region. 1154 01:13:16,000 --> 01:13:20,600 Speaker 1: Um those movements probably referred to our separation along the 1155 01:13:20,640 --> 01:13:26,000 Speaker 1: Mississippi or the Great Old Man people to move against 1156 01:13:26,080 --> 01:13:27,679 Speaker 1: current because they because this is a group of people 1157 01:13:27,720 --> 01:13:30,360 Speaker 1: that traveled up river. We went up upstream is another 1158 01:13:31,560 --> 01:13:36,280 Speaker 1: yeah Oumaha. And then you have um no ship that's 1159 01:13:36,280 --> 01:13:39,679 Speaker 1: pretty good. Clapha um down from your neck of the woods. 1160 01:13:40,240 --> 01:13:43,840 Speaker 1: We say Gogapa. It means the downstream people. And then 1161 01:13:43,920 --> 01:13:47,320 Speaker 1: you have the o sage means children of the middle waters. 1162 01:13:49,520 --> 01:13:52,120 Speaker 1: So all of those I think Kore and I were 1163 01:13:52,160 --> 01:13:56,240 Speaker 1: talking abous about this before, but so many American place 1164 01:13:56,400 --> 01:14:03,160 Speaker 1: names are indigenous. Now we have we transliterated into English 1165 01:14:03,200 --> 01:14:05,439 Speaker 1: and say, oh sage and quapol. I like the word 1166 01:14:05,479 --> 01:14:10,080 Speaker 1: you used corruption, it's powerful. My kids are I was like, 1167 01:14:10,120 --> 01:14:12,000 Speaker 1: why is that play's name that? And I's doing like 1168 01:14:12,320 --> 01:14:15,160 Speaker 1: I'll probably some guy's name. Yeah, I mean like go 1169 01:14:15,360 --> 01:14:19,240 Speaker 1: through them. I mean it's like it's just the states, cities, 1170 01:14:19,400 --> 01:14:28,879 Speaker 1: every states, the cities Dakota, Missouri Highway, Kansas, Oklahoma. Cancer 1171 01:14:29,320 --> 01:14:33,880 Speaker 1: is interpretation of what we say conz A, which means 1172 01:14:34,400 --> 01:14:37,599 Speaker 1: the wind people. They were a clan of a larger 1173 01:14:37,680 --> 01:14:41,200 Speaker 1: group of of our of our language family. But it 1174 01:14:41,280 --> 01:14:45,360 Speaker 1: goes on and on and on. I assume Michigan, Wisconsin. 1175 01:14:46,720 --> 01:14:49,720 Speaker 1: It is kind of interesting though, that there was some 1176 01:14:49,960 --> 01:14:54,280 Speaker 1: sort of uh, you know, want or interest in not 1177 01:14:54,520 --> 01:14:59,160 Speaker 1: completely just renaming it and calling the next next state Steve. 1178 01:14:59,560 --> 01:15:02,120 Speaker 1: And then the after that well they well they did 1179 01:15:02,200 --> 01:15:05,400 Speaker 1: that up in the northeast. Sure certainly did. But it's right. 1180 01:15:05,439 --> 01:15:07,160 Speaker 1: I mean, some of some of those names would have 1181 01:15:07,200 --> 01:15:11,400 Speaker 1: been more European, like New York. But then the further 1182 01:15:11,520 --> 01:15:14,200 Speaker 1: they got, these territories were more wild and I know 1183 01:15:14,400 --> 01:15:17,639 Speaker 1: Arkansas is a is a native name, and I've heard 1184 01:15:18,280 --> 01:15:21,240 Speaker 1: the name translates into downstream people. I don't know if 1185 01:15:21,320 --> 01:15:25,800 Speaker 1: you have heard that before, but anyway, I'm just guessing. Uh, 1186 01:15:26,240 --> 01:15:31,840 Speaker 1: I grew up in Moskegon County. That's for sure indigenous, right, 1187 01:15:32,560 --> 01:15:35,720 Speaker 1: My my understanding. There's a huge swamp there and it's 1188 01:15:35,920 --> 01:15:39,439 Speaker 1: it's like the Moskegan River delta, but it's the Moskegan 1189 01:15:39,560 --> 01:15:42,240 Speaker 1: River flowing in the delta that the Moskegan River makes 1190 01:15:42,280 --> 01:15:47,160 Speaker 1: as it flows into Lake Michigan. So my understanding. Um, 1191 01:15:47,560 --> 01:15:49,519 Speaker 1: and you know the way everybody explains it, it's a 1192 01:15:49,600 --> 01:15:54,240 Speaker 1: it's a big swamp. Okay, look, swamp area whatever. But 1193 01:15:54,920 --> 01:15:56,479 Speaker 1: just to kind of give you this is I'm not 1194 01:15:56,520 --> 01:15:59,679 Speaker 1: gonna tell you anything new. Here's a joke that would 1195 01:15:59,680 --> 01:16:03,120 Speaker 1: be tray affect when I was a kid. It would 1196 01:16:03,160 --> 01:16:09,439 Speaker 1: be that, oh, uh, an Indian was water skiing and 1197 01:16:09,840 --> 01:16:17,840 Speaker 1: his ski broke here and he said mosquegone. Mhm right. No, 1198 01:16:18,200 --> 01:16:21,880 Speaker 1: it'd be like no, I'm just I'm like Taylor's laughing, yeah, 1199 01:16:21,960 --> 01:16:24,320 Speaker 1: but I'm not. I'm not telling them. I don't think 1200 01:16:24,360 --> 01:16:27,400 Speaker 1: he's going to be shocked that people tell Indian jokes 1201 01:16:27,439 --> 01:16:30,320 Speaker 1: that are derogatory. I mean, I didn't make damn thing up. 1202 01:16:30,320 --> 01:16:31,760 Speaker 1: I'm just saying it's like a thing people. It's like 1203 01:16:31,840 --> 01:16:35,760 Speaker 1: a stupid ass thing people say. And why is that 1204 01:16:35,880 --> 01:16:40,080 Speaker 1: do you think? I don't know. Wow, why do people 1205 01:16:40,120 --> 01:16:44,600 Speaker 1: like the blittle things? Maybe they don't know what the 1206 01:16:44,680 --> 01:16:47,120 Speaker 1: real history is? Yeah? Why why do you? Yeah? Why 1207 01:16:47,160 --> 01:16:49,400 Speaker 1: do you like to I can't explain why people like 1208 01:16:49,439 --> 01:16:53,240 Speaker 1: the bluttle stuff. I don't know why you want to? Like? 1209 01:16:53,280 --> 01:16:54,960 Speaker 1: Why would you want to diminish something? I don't know. 1210 01:16:55,960 --> 01:16:58,519 Speaker 1: That's that's why I wrote the chapter in my book 1211 01:16:58,560 --> 01:17:03,760 Speaker 1: manuscript called the Under's Dilemma of America. Why do we 1212 01:17:04,280 --> 01:17:09,240 Speaker 1: have to create stories like Thanksgiving when in reality, the 1213 01:17:09,320 --> 01:17:12,439 Speaker 1: majority of what we think about is Thanksgiving is a 1214 01:17:12,520 --> 01:17:20,559 Speaker 1: lie and definitely belittles Indian slave trade in in New England, 1215 01:17:21,400 --> 01:17:29,920 Speaker 1: the Mohegan Pequot Wars. There's so much history that we 1216 01:17:30,040 --> 01:17:32,960 Speaker 1: just don't know about. But it's much more convenient, much 1217 01:17:33,040 --> 01:17:36,800 Speaker 1: more easy to say, oh, well, there's the pilgrims and 1218 01:17:36,960 --> 01:17:40,880 Speaker 1: they were saved by the local Native Americans. A hell 1219 01:17:40,920 --> 01:17:43,400 Speaker 1: of a party, had a hell of a party. The 1220 01:17:43,479 --> 01:17:51,519 Speaker 1: only time Thanksgiving was used was the Governor Winthrop I 1221 01:17:51,640 --> 01:17:56,479 Speaker 1: believe was his name after he sent a military party 1222 01:17:56,600 --> 01:18:00,680 Speaker 1: to slaughter over a hundred different tribal warriors, and when 1223 01:18:00,680 --> 01:18:04,439 Speaker 1: they came back, that's when they had to Thanksgiving. So 1224 01:18:04,640 --> 01:18:08,639 Speaker 1: when you juxtapose reality versus the myths that we come 1225 01:18:08,760 --> 01:18:10,880 Speaker 1: up with. But this is also part of the myth 1226 01:18:11,000 --> 01:18:16,680 Speaker 1: of in Columbus selled the ocean blue. I don't know 1227 01:18:16,680 --> 01:18:19,519 Speaker 1: if they still teach that to children, but most of 1228 01:18:19,600 --> 01:18:24,360 Speaker 1: us know that right. As a parent who's raising kids 1229 01:18:24,400 --> 01:18:32,560 Speaker 1: in America, UM, I don't know how. I don't know 1230 01:18:32,640 --> 01:18:37,360 Speaker 1: how helpful it is to them to I'm not really 1231 01:18:37,439 --> 01:18:40,439 Speaker 1: interested in bringing them up in an atmosphere of self loathing, 1232 01:18:42,600 --> 01:18:43,680 Speaker 1: do you know what I mean? Like, I don't know 1233 01:18:43,760 --> 01:18:46,439 Speaker 1: that it's doing them, that it's setting them up in 1234 01:18:46,479 --> 01:18:51,120 Speaker 1: a good path. So I think that there are complexities there. 1235 01:18:51,200 --> 01:18:55,680 Speaker 1: There are astounding complexities to history. But I think that 1236 01:18:55,760 --> 01:19:02,519 Speaker 1: the way we communicate with kids is parable, sure, right, 1237 01:19:03,280 --> 01:19:05,880 Speaker 1: And if if you find there's if there's like there's 1238 01:19:05,920 --> 01:19:11,000 Speaker 1: a value in love of your place, there's value in 1239 01:19:11,760 --> 01:19:14,280 Speaker 1: love of your country, there's value and love of your 1240 01:19:14,280 --> 01:19:17,439 Speaker 1: fellow man. I think that it's it's like, but there's 1241 01:19:17,439 --> 01:19:19,760 Speaker 1: a pretty good argument to be made for giving them 1242 01:19:19,960 --> 01:19:26,360 Speaker 1: when they're young, somewhat of an optimistic vision, right. I 1243 01:19:26,479 --> 01:19:28,439 Speaker 1: think that that's probably that this is not like the 1244 01:19:28,520 --> 01:19:33,000 Speaker 1: Moskegan stupid ship like that, just communicating to them there's 1245 01:19:33,080 --> 01:19:37,120 Speaker 1: something here that you should that you probably want to 1246 01:19:37,200 --> 01:19:41,600 Speaker 1: take care of, right. But I mean they could be 1247 01:19:41,720 --> 01:19:47,240 Speaker 1: equally enthralled with the story of total saving this planet. 1248 01:19:47,800 --> 01:19:50,400 Speaker 1: I don't know this story other than Sturgil Simpson mentions 1249 01:19:50,439 --> 01:19:53,800 Speaker 1: it and turtles all the way down, but you know 1250 01:19:53,920 --> 01:19:57,760 Speaker 1: it now I've shared it with you. I'm gonna read off. 1251 01:19:58,280 --> 01:19:59,640 Speaker 1: I'm gonna read up on it. I don't get the 1252 01:19:59,680 --> 01:20:04,880 Speaker 1: detail wrong, Listen, I'd love to telling that story. What 1253 01:20:05,000 --> 01:20:07,760 Speaker 1: I think you're saying, it's just that we we've distill down, 1254 01:20:08,360 --> 01:20:13,320 Speaker 1: We're distilled down our history into very simple, like you know, 1255 01:20:13,960 --> 01:20:17,400 Speaker 1: just flash points that are easy to communicate. So I mean, like, yeah, 1256 01:20:17,560 --> 01:20:19,840 Speaker 1: humans want to live in the now and sometimes want 1257 01:20:19,880 --> 01:20:21,720 Speaker 1: to look back the past and just see it as 1258 01:20:21,800 --> 01:20:24,080 Speaker 1: this like thing that could be subbed up in one sentence. 1259 01:20:24,439 --> 01:20:27,800 Speaker 1: And for whatever reason, Columbus was able to market the 1260 01:20:27,880 --> 01:20:30,000 Speaker 1: world marketed that Columbus found this place. So that's what 1261 01:20:30,080 --> 01:20:32,479 Speaker 1: we still teach. I mean, I think what you're I 1262 01:20:32,560 --> 01:20:34,920 Speaker 1: hear what you're saying. It's like it's easy to simplify 1263 01:20:35,120 --> 01:20:39,920 Speaker 1: things like really small and those things then become wrong. 1264 01:20:40,240 --> 01:20:44,040 Speaker 1: I mean because you can't tell complex stories with very 1265 01:20:44,160 --> 01:20:47,240 Speaker 1: simple things that you can't sit them all down and 1266 01:20:47,320 --> 01:20:51,400 Speaker 1: be like, you know, there's an arguments be made that, Um, 1267 01:20:51,680 --> 01:20:56,519 Speaker 1: there's no free will, right that everything's spelled out already. 1268 01:20:56,760 --> 01:20:58,360 Speaker 1: You're either gonna be the way you are or not. 1269 01:20:58,760 --> 01:21:01,679 Speaker 1: Nothing you can do about it. Um, people are horrible, 1270 01:21:02,560 --> 01:21:05,559 Speaker 1: good luck. That's I don't think that's not a good 1271 01:21:05,600 --> 01:21:07,080 Speaker 1: way of going about it. Why is it one or 1272 01:21:07,160 --> 01:21:09,920 Speaker 1: the other? And also what does it say to our 1273 01:21:10,120 --> 01:21:16,680 Speaker 1: collective consciousness if we exist on myth and continue to 1274 01:21:16,720 --> 01:21:21,160 Speaker 1: be okay with that? I don't know. Well, I think 1275 01:21:21,320 --> 01:21:24,479 Speaker 1: I think the thing is is that now because of 1276 01:21:24,600 --> 01:21:27,400 Speaker 1: the world we live, and we can find the accuracy 1277 01:21:27,479 --> 01:21:29,719 Speaker 1: and stories so here and you talk about Thanksgiving helps 1278 01:21:29,960 --> 01:21:33,120 Speaker 1: you know, and I've heard this before, but like that 1279 01:21:33,560 --> 01:21:37,840 Speaker 1: that helps us understand probably the way that we've been 1280 01:21:38,840 --> 01:21:42,240 Speaker 1: marketed well for sure been marketed to and so we 1281 01:21:42,360 --> 01:21:44,720 Speaker 1: can bring out more truth inside of the way that 1282 01:21:44,840 --> 01:21:46,640 Speaker 1: we exist from here on out, just because we know 1283 01:21:47,040 --> 01:21:49,000 Speaker 1: and I think you can find more separation between the 1284 01:21:49,080 --> 01:21:52,920 Speaker 1: optimism that you're talking about, Stephen, Like these bastardizations that 1285 01:21:53,240 --> 01:21:58,040 Speaker 1: are harmful and have implications today just stuff we tell 1286 01:21:58,840 --> 01:22:06,880 Speaker 1: our kids, and the truce shall set them free. Right Yeah, yeah, no, 1287 01:22:07,080 --> 01:22:09,160 Speaker 1: I told you. Listen, what I'm saying is like, what 1288 01:22:09,280 --> 01:22:11,160 Speaker 1: I'm saying is probably like I'm not doing a good 1289 01:22:11,240 --> 01:22:14,639 Speaker 1: job of articulating it. I'm just trying to um. I'm 1290 01:22:14,720 --> 01:22:17,479 Speaker 1: expressing the idea that there are certain sort of legends 1291 01:22:17,520 --> 01:22:24,479 Speaker 1: and mythologies that are that are told because they're effective. Sure, 1292 01:22:26,400 --> 01:22:30,439 Speaker 1: and I don't think people sit around weighing out weighing 1293 01:22:30,479 --> 01:22:35,800 Speaker 1: them out too thoroughly. I guess that. Okay, It's it's 1294 01:22:35,880 --> 01:22:38,439 Speaker 1: much easier to have history tied up in a pretty 1295 01:22:38,439 --> 01:22:42,559 Speaker 1: little bus, right. It's like the blitz Creek hypothesis, Right, 1296 01:22:42,600 --> 01:22:45,760 Speaker 1: It's much easier to believe that there was one event 1297 01:22:45,840 --> 01:22:49,240 Speaker 1: that killed all the all the megafauna, right. Yeah, you know, 1298 01:22:49,479 --> 01:22:51,800 Speaker 1: m I was surprised to see that Wikipedia still is 1299 01:22:52,240 --> 01:22:56,400 Speaker 1: is really hangs onto the blitz Creek hypothesis. Academia has 1300 01:22:56,400 --> 01:23:00,439 Speaker 1: moved on. Wikipedia's doubled down. It's like the burying straight theory. 1301 01:23:00,600 --> 01:23:03,280 Speaker 1: That's and there's a lot of work been done. Graham 1302 01:23:03,320 --> 01:23:09,080 Speaker 1: Hancock did a wonderful job and America BC no America before. 1303 01:23:09,920 --> 01:23:13,160 Speaker 1: But he goes into this whole understanding of what you 1304 01:23:13,240 --> 01:23:17,200 Speaker 1: have an American anthropology around around the Clovis First people's 1305 01:23:17,840 --> 01:23:20,680 Speaker 1: and how anthropology just held onto that held onto that. 1306 01:23:21,479 --> 01:23:27,040 Speaker 1: Academics careers were destroyed whenever they found something counter to that, 1307 01:23:28,080 --> 01:23:33,680 Speaker 1: and so you have this whole um uncovered history, this 1308 01:23:33,800 --> 01:23:35,760 Speaker 1: provenance of America that may go back a lot, a 1309 01:23:35,800 --> 01:23:40,920 Speaker 1: lot longer than what most people are comfortable with. When 1310 01:23:40,960 --> 01:23:45,680 Speaker 1: I started, when I first started dabbling in anthropology, just 1311 01:23:45,760 --> 01:23:49,519 Speaker 1: like reading academic works, there was it was right around 1312 01:23:49,720 --> 01:23:54,519 Speaker 1: when the Clovis First idea was falling apart, and there 1313 01:23:54,560 --> 01:23:57,600 Speaker 1: were still people that held onto it, you know. But 1314 01:23:57,720 --> 01:23:59,400 Speaker 1: that was kind of like that. That was a debate 1315 01:23:59,520 --> 01:24:02,240 Speaker 1: that was half ring back then. But to get back 1316 01:24:02,280 --> 01:24:04,320 Speaker 1: to we're supposed to get you, is there is there 1317 01:24:04,360 --> 01:24:08,160 Speaker 1: a metaphor to be found in the Giant people? Like 1318 01:24:08,439 --> 01:24:11,200 Speaker 1: what do you think that that meant? And I think 1319 01:24:11,240 --> 01:24:16,080 Speaker 1: that they were giants, um they were a competing race 1320 01:24:16,439 --> 01:24:21,080 Speaker 1: from our stories that Earthmaker made before us, and they 1321 01:24:21,200 --> 01:24:29,080 Speaker 1: became they lacked humility and they were too pompous and 1322 01:24:29,160 --> 01:24:33,759 Speaker 1: then ultimately depending upon the stories, but there's an incredible 1323 01:24:33,800 --> 01:24:40,040 Speaker 1: place right outside of Omaha. The Skeety people to Panties 1324 01:24:40,080 --> 01:24:44,040 Speaker 1: and the rickers. Then it changes a little bit based 1325 01:24:44,080 --> 01:24:46,760 Speaker 1: on the dialect, but Paul Hook is what it's called, 1326 01:24:46,800 --> 01:24:50,439 Speaker 1: and it was the origin place for the Skiti people, 1327 01:24:51,640 --> 01:24:56,639 Speaker 1: and there was a number of the Council of the Animals. 1328 01:24:56,760 --> 01:24:59,280 Speaker 1: Out of the five sacred sites, only one of them 1329 01:24:59,560 --> 01:25:03,240 Speaker 1: is left, and that's Paw Hook. And from it it 1330 01:25:03,360 --> 01:25:07,680 Speaker 1: was said that back in the time of giants and sacrifice, 1331 01:25:07,880 --> 01:25:10,720 Speaker 1: that was a very important place. And ultimately that's where 1332 01:25:10,920 --> 01:25:14,040 Speaker 1: Earthmaker Creator decided to flood the earth to get rid 1333 01:25:14,080 --> 01:25:17,040 Speaker 1: of the giants, and he bade all of the human 1334 01:25:17,120 --> 01:25:19,720 Speaker 1: beings and the smaller animals to go underneath into the 1335 01:25:19,840 --> 01:25:24,120 Speaker 1: Council of the Animals, and therefore they wrote out the flood, 1336 01:25:24,360 --> 01:25:29,439 Speaker 1: and then they were led by yellow buffalo woman and 1337 01:25:29,560 --> 01:25:32,439 Speaker 1: they came back at and emerged there. So that became 1338 01:25:33,520 --> 01:25:36,519 Speaker 1: a very central place for a lot of the Plains people. 1339 01:25:36,840 --> 01:25:39,759 Speaker 1: They survived the flood, survived the flood by going underneath 1340 01:25:39,840 --> 01:25:41,479 Speaker 1: the ground. And you have a lot of those types 1341 01:25:41,520 --> 01:25:44,400 Speaker 1: of stories. Kaya was half those stories. There's biblical reference. 1342 01:25:44,439 --> 01:25:48,519 Speaker 1: The giants to the Anach and Genesis. Yeah, so that 1343 01:25:48,640 --> 01:25:50,280 Speaker 1: that's a theme, but not the kind of giant that 1344 01:25:50,320 --> 01:25:53,519 Speaker 1: Goliath was. Glass is the huge dude, wasn't he He 1345 01:25:53,680 --> 01:25:57,000 Speaker 1: was a giant? Yeah? He am and I they weren't 1346 01:25:57,040 --> 01:25:58,960 Speaker 1: all big he Yeah, he was a little bit of 1347 01:25:59,080 --> 01:26:03,320 Speaker 1: a of a phenomen amongst its people. But I mean, 1348 01:26:03,360 --> 01:26:05,439 Speaker 1: I don't think they were all giants where they mean, 1349 01:26:05,680 --> 01:26:09,439 Speaker 1: but that that was the land of Canaan. Yeah. Is 1350 01:26:09,479 --> 01:26:12,680 Speaker 1: there any do you think there's any chance that um, 1351 01:26:14,880 --> 01:26:25,080 Speaker 1: that there could be cultural memory of um they would survive, 1352 01:26:25,200 --> 01:26:30,880 Speaker 1: like how many Neanderthal and years cultural memory that could 1353 01:26:30,920 --> 01:26:37,559 Speaker 1: survive long enough to recollect interaction with Neanderthals. It's an 1354 01:26:37,600 --> 01:26:41,360 Speaker 1: excellent question. But we find that legacy in our art, 1355 01:26:41,600 --> 01:26:44,120 Speaker 1: the use of red ochre can be tied back to 1356 01:26:44,360 --> 01:26:49,760 Speaker 1: the Neanderthals. And one of the hypotheses is who were 1357 01:26:49,800 --> 01:26:56,280 Speaker 1: the Denisovans? Were they some remnant of this giant race? 1358 01:26:57,280 --> 01:26:59,920 Speaker 1: We don't know, because that's different within my DNA than 1359 01:27:00,080 --> 01:27:03,680 Speaker 1: everyone else here. So what was that? I do know 1360 01:27:03,880 --> 01:27:08,639 Speaker 1: that there are some anthropological markers that make indigenous people's different, 1361 01:27:08,680 --> 01:27:10,360 Speaker 1: one of which is our teeth. And that's why I 1362 01:27:10,439 --> 01:27:13,240 Speaker 1: was so important about what was found in those caves 1363 01:27:13,280 --> 01:27:17,720 Speaker 1: in Siberia. But we have different types of teeth. The 1364 01:27:17,760 --> 01:27:20,040 Speaker 1: main thing is we have shovel shaped incisors, which is 1365 01:27:20,160 --> 01:27:25,160 Speaker 1: the only dominant genetic trait. But on the back side 1366 01:27:25,240 --> 01:27:30,800 Speaker 1: of front teeth or scooped um, we have the moo 1367 01:27:31,160 --> 01:27:36,280 Speaker 1: Mongolian spot that comes out of Asia, and I brought 1368 01:27:36,320 --> 01:27:40,400 Speaker 1: all my DNA stuffs the Mongolian spot. It's a little 1369 01:27:40,479 --> 01:27:43,240 Speaker 1: blue spot on the behind of babies and sometimes on 1370 01:27:43,520 --> 01:27:47,639 Speaker 1: the back or the stomach, and it's just a genetic 1371 01:27:47,760 --> 01:27:51,920 Speaker 1: marker we don't know and it fades and its m 1372 01:27:52,760 --> 01:27:58,360 Speaker 1: But we do have different DNA. We have different mitochondrial 1373 01:27:58,479 --> 01:28:01,040 Speaker 1: DNA as well. So the stuff that I when I 1374 01:28:01,080 --> 01:28:04,200 Speaker 1: originally got into the DNA stuff, when I was doing 1375 01:28:04,240 --> 01:28:06,280 Speaker 1: all my all my research for the book, was really 1376 01:28:06,320 --> 01:28:09,880 Speaker 1: trying to understand are we different and national geographic who 1377 01:28:09,880 --> 01:28:11,439 Speaker 1: seems to be a central player and all this. Have 1378 01:28:11,479 --> 01:28:14,120 Speaker 1: done an incredible job of trying to understand some of 1379 01:28:14,160 --> 01:28:17,080 Speaker 1: this ancient past and from the DNA perspective. They started 1380 01:28:17,120 --> 01:28:21,160 Speaker 1: this project called genomic which was trying to isolate the 1381 01:28:21,240 --> 01:28:24,439 Speaker 1: fact that we have different haplo groups for our mitochondrial DNA, 1382 01:28:25,320 --> 01:28:27,240 Speaker 1: So I have some of those markers that would be 1383 01:28:27,360 --> 01:28:30,760 Speaker 1: the dominant European ones. But then we have this motochondrial 1384 01:28:30,920 --> 01:28:34,320 Speaker 1: DNA that's very very different from others. What when you 1385 01:28:34,439 --> 01:28:39,080 Speaker 1: did so when you did a DNA test or what? What? What? 1386 01:28:39,200 --> 01:28:42,200 Speaker 1: What are the services have you done? I did the 1387 01:28:43,200 --> 01:28:46,880 Speaker 1: genomic project and then more recently, I think I did 1388 01:28:46,960 --> 01:28:50,880 Speaker 1: the ancestry one. So the genomic project was you were 1389 01:28:50,880 --> 01:28:53,880 Speaker 1: actually involved in research project? Yeah? I mean my my 1390 01:28:54,000 --> 01:28:55,640 Speaker 1: DNA was a part of that study. That's why I 1391 01:28:55,680 --> 01:28:57,920 Speaker 1: signed up for it. I see, So what can you 1392 01:29:00,360 --> 01:29:03,400 Speaker 1: What did it tell you about you? Um? One, that 1393 01:29:03,520 --> 01:29:07,640 Speaker 1: I had similar part of Neanderthal, which is probably my 1394 01:29:08,080 --> 01:29:10,680 Speaker 1: Irish heritage. Maybe some of the French or German I 1395 01:29:10,760 --> 01:29:14,880 Speaker 1: have in there as well. Um. But it also shows 1396 01:29:15,000 --> 01:29:20,160 Speaker 1: that I've got I've got to pointe of Neanderthal and 1397 01:29:20,280 --> 01:29:24,599 Speaker 1: one point seven DENI SOBN but probably most evidence through 1398 01:29:24,880 --> 01:29:28,800 Speaker 1: teeth and other other common amongst Native Americans and s 1399 01:29:29,120 --> 01:29:36,680 Speaker 1: is jealous? Are the percentages again two point three? You 1400 01:29:36,760 --> 01:29:41,920 Speaker 1: think that you have more Neanderthal? Remember told me I 1401 01:29:41,960 --> 01:29:45,800 Speaker 1: was a little light on Neanderthal man, But it goes 1402 01:29:45,840 --> 01:29:51,280 Speaker 1: back to your lighter average. I mean these. I guess 1403 01:29:51,360 --> 01:29:54,760 Speaker 1: it's natural within human beings to feel like one type 1404 01:29:54,800 --> 01:29:57,280 Speaker 1: of hominid is superior to the others. But I think 1405 01:29:57,320 --> 01:29:59,120 Speaker 1: it goes back to that core value that we have 1406 01:29:59,800 --> 01:30:03,280 Speaker 1: a indigenous people that were all related. So whether it's 1407 01:30:03,920 --> 01:30:08,880 Speaker 1: Homo sapien, Homo sapien, or Neanderthal or Dennis Ovan, all 1408 01:30:09,040 --> 01:30:13,040 Speaker 1: part of humanity as we now know it. But when 1409 01:30:13,120 --> 01:30:16,479 Speaker 1: you okay, has there is there enough information out there 1410 01:30:16,520 --> 01:30:21,400 Speaker 1: that you can get into Like my understanding when they 1411 01:30:21,400 --> 01:30:23,519 Speaker 1: do these projects is it kind of depends on how 1412 01:30:23,640 --> 01:30:26,240 Speaker 1: many samples are taken. So there's some spots on the 1413 01:30:26,320 --> 01:30:29,679 Speaker 1: planet that there just hasn't been enough people. They haven't 1414 01:30:29,680 --> 01:30:32,760 Speaker 1: done their genomes, haven't done their genetics, and so some 1415 01:30:32,960 --> 01:30:36,679 Speaker 1: spots are hazy. Some spots like what like Western Europe 1416 01:30:37,520 --> 01:30:39,680 Speaker 1: um a lot of participants, a lot of people have 1417 01:30:39,760 --> 01:30:41,880 Speaker 1: done it. You start getting these really detailed pictures, but 1418 01:30:41,920 --> 01:30:45,320 Speaker 1: you talk to people who um whose ancestors came from Asia, 1419 01:30:45,360 --> 01:30:47,479 Speaker 1: and it's like not as satisfying when you when you 1420 01:30:47,560 --> 01:30:49,240 Speaker 1: do it there because it's not filled in in a 1421 01:30:49,360 --> 01:30:51,840 Speaker 1: detailed sense, and you'll be told like, oh, you're kind 1422 01:30:51,840 --> 01:30:56,120 Speaker 1: of generally asian um. When you what with yours. Are 1423 01:30:56,160 --> 01:30:58,960 Speaker 1: they like, where is that at now? Are they able 1424 01:30:58,960 --> 01:31:03,040 Speaker 1: to talk about region within what's now the United States? 1425 01:31:03,200 --> 01:31:04,880 Speaker 1: I don't think it's going to ever be able to 1426 01:31:04,960 --> 01:31:08,200 Speaker 1: get that granular, because tribe is a fluid thing, you know. 1427 01:31:08,880 --> 01:31:11,000 Speaker 1: But I was really surprised. I mean, I know that 1428 01:31:11,080 --> 01:31:16,320 Speaker 1: I'm majority Native American, but the formal test, both of 1429 01:31:16,360 --> 01:31:20,880 Speaker 1: them came out around the same percentage um. But what 1430 01:31:20,960 --> 01:31:23,120 Speaker 1: I was surprised at was based off one of the 1431 01:31:23,160 --> 01:31:27,880 Speaker 1: tests that there was a lot more Peruvian bloodlines, and 1432 01:31:28,840 --> 01:31:34,880 Speaker 1: in both tests was consistent percentage of descendency from the 1433 01:31:34,960 --> 01:31:41,680 Speaker 1: I knew of Japan, the indigenous people's Japan, Chinese for sure, Peruvian. 1434 01:31:42,680 --> 01:31:45,680 Speaker 1: And the other one that was a big curveball was 1435 01:31:46,200 --> 01:31:49,960 Speaker 1: the nearly quarter percent that said I was Russian and 1436 01:31:50,040 --> 01:31:52,679 Speaker 1: then I was related to toll story. Can you track back? 1437 01:31:53,400 --> 01:32:00,560 Speaker 1: Can you track back? You're encouraging as a writer, so 1438 01:32:00,640 --> 01:32:03,720 Speaker 1: that's where I got there. You track back in your 1439 01:32:03,800 --> 01:32:06,240 Speaker 1: history where some of the stuff comes from. I mean, like, 1440 01:32:06,280 --> 01:32:08,720 Speaker 1: could you say, like my great grandfather was like a 1441 01:32:08,840 --> 01:32:11,960 Speaker 1: Caucasian guy. I mean, I I finally found people who 1442 01:32:12,040 --> 01:32:14,559 Speaker 1: know more a lot, but like your mother and father 1443 01:32:14,680 --> 01:32:17,600 Speaker 1: were members of the tribe. I mean, I mean, I 1444 01:32:17,840 --> 01:32:23,160 Speaker 1: can go back, you know, fourteen seventeen generations on almost 1445 01:32:24,120 --> 01:32:26,840 Speaker 1: both sides, but you're and there's nothing along those lines. 1446 01:32:26,880 --> 01:32:29,000 Speaker 1: But what when I finally did talk to somebody who 1447 01:32:29,080 --> 01:32:31,000 Speaker 1: knew what they were talking about a lot more than 1448 01:32:31,080 --> 01:32:34,599 Speaker 1: I did. Was probably had to do with this mixing 1449 01:32:34,680 --> 01:32:39,840 Speaker 1: of Siberian and Eurasian bloodlines. And I went back and 1450 01:32:39,960 --> 01:32:42,440 Speaker 1: forth for a time before they came over to Siberian. 1451 01:32:42,840 --> 01:32:45,080 Speaker 1: Arguably some of them maybe even came back. And oh 1452 01:32:45,200 --> 01:32:48,719 Speaker 1: so you don't think that was that was anything recent, 1453 01:32:48,920 --> 01:32:53,720 Speaker 1: like in the last couple of years. Yeah stuff, Yeah, 1454 01:32:53,840 --> 01:32:56,840 Speaker 1: oh wow, Okay, can I make a correction real quick? 1455 01:32:57,320 --> 01:33:03,480 Speaker 1: I said, anac in Genesis is Nephilim. Nephilim where the Yeah, yeah, irrelevant, 1456 01:33:03,520 --> 01:33:06,400 Speaker 1: But I just had to clear that uppilum. And I've 1457 01:33:06,439 --> 01:33:10,600 Speaker 1: been fascinated with all of you know, the understanding of 1458 01:33:10,920 --> 01:33:14,200 Speaker 1: what happened in Messo America, what happened in South America. 1459 01:33:14,880 --> 01:33:22,880 Speaker 1: I've been really enjoy reading about those British explorers who 1460 01:33:22,920 --> 01:33:25,360 Speaker 1: finally went down to South American and tried to find 1461 01:33:25,479 --> 01:33:29,960 Speaker 1: the Lost City of z Colonel Faucett. It's a fascinating story, 1462 01:33:30,320 --> 01:33:35,080 Speaker 1: but behalfs of the Royal Geographic Society. He went down 1463 01:33:35,200 --> 01:33:37,600 Speaker 1: in the early dred and began to explore in his 1464 01:33:37,720 --> 01:33:41,760 Speaker 1: hypothesis was there was the lost city of Zad, which 1465 01:33:41,960 --> 01:33:46,200 Speaker 1: was a complex society in South America. Charles Man in 1466 01:33:46,280 --> 01:33:50,840 Speaker 1: his book he talks a lot about um terra Pretta 1467 01:33:50,920 --> 01:33:55,080 Speaker 1: and some of the agricultural practices and involving the use 1468 01:33:55,160 --> 01:33:58,640 Speaker 1: of biochar and how to take very alkaline soils and 1469 01:33:58,720 --> 01:34:01,519 Speaker 1: turn them into you know, productive things. And these are 1470 01:34:01,560 --> 01:34:10,479 Speaker 1: ancient but much many years after pots disappearance into the Amazon, 1471 01:34:11,040 --> 01:34:12,639 Speaker 1: no one knows every what happened to him. That many 1472 01:34:12,680 --> 01:34:15,120 Speaker 1: people try to go and find out through the use 1473 01:34:15,200 --> 01:34:18,680 Speaker 1: of technology. We've we're finding all these ancient cities now 1474 01:34:19,600 --> 01:34:23,439 Speaker 1: and more and more evidence that population numbers were a 1475 01:34:23,520 --> 01:34:27,040 Speaker 1: lot bigger. But that's the first point in having any 1476 01:34:27,080 --> 01:34:33,240 Speaker 1: of these conversations about ancient America is how many people, 1477 01:34:33,800 --> 01:34:37,160 Speaker 1: how many bison, etcetera. All tho has become really interesting topics. 1478 01:34:38,080 --> 01:34:41,760 Speaker 1: But what happened to them? Why did they leave or disappear? 1479 01:34:42,520 --> 01:34:46,280 Speaker 1: What was the role of disease in genocide? How much 1480 01:34:46,280 --> 01:34:49,080 Speaker 1: of it was purposeful? I think all those things are 1481 01:34:49,120 --> 01:34:51,800 Speaker 1: important for people that understand so that the very least 1482 01:34:51,840 --> 01:34:56,880 Speaker 1: we don't repeat those bad portions of history. Tribal people's 1483 01:34:56,920 --> 01:35:01,160 Speaker 1: have them a prophecy. It's primarily in the plains, but 1484 01:35:01,240 --> 01:35:03,160 Speaker 1: it's all around. That has to do with the seventh 1485 01:35:04,479 --> 01:35:09,479 Speaker 1: generation prophecy. And ultimately you can look to sad symbolic 1486 01:35:09,600 --> 01:35:13,120 Speaker 1: events in history, such as the original Battle of Wounded Knee, 1487 01:35:13,680 --> 01:35:19,719 Speaker 1: which was putting down of very powerful um the Ghost 1488 01:35:19,800 --> 01:35:26,240 Speaker 1: Dance religion and in its profit well voca up around 1489 01:35:26,439 --> 01:35:30,400 Speaker 1: up around Pine Ridge there and I believe it's in 1490 01:35:30,439 --> 01:35:34,920 Speaker 1: the eighteen seventies, but it is such a horrific event 1491 01:35:35,439 --> 01:35:39,240 Speaker 1: that many viewed it as the breaking of the great 1492 01:35:39,280 --> 01:35:42,639 Speaker 1: sacred hoop of the Suian people's And at that point 1493 01:35:42,720 --> 01:35:46,960 Speaker 1: it was said that that was the beginning of very 1494 01:35:47,160 --> 01:35:51,000 Speaker 1: tough time for indigenous peoples, that for six generations we 1495 01:35:51,040 --> 01:35:54,560 Speaker 1: would suffer greatly, and Lord knows we've suffered, and that 1496 01:35:54,680 --> 01:35:57,679 Speaker 1: with the markings then, um, I think you wrote about 1497 01:35:57,720 --> 01:36:00,719 Speaker 1: this something too, stories about white buff low calf woman, 1498 01:36:00,760 --> 01:36:06,519 Speaker 1: that that she would return, and so we had those 1499 01:36:06,600 --> 01:36:14,720 Speaker 1: markings and actuality in the physical man manifestation of white 1500 01:36:14,760 --> 01:36:16,920 Speaker 1: buffalo calfs. So we had the first one in two 1501 01:36:17,000 --> 01:36:20,120 Speaker 1: thousand one, and by two thousand and seven there were 1502 01:36:20,160 --> 01:36:22,280 Speaker 1: four of them, and that means that that was the 1503 01:36:22,360 --> 01:36:25,840 Speaker 1: time for the return of the seventh generation. I had 1504 01:36:25,880 --> 01:36:30,160 Speaker 1: actually been right in a scholarly paper with a legal 1505 01:36:30,200 --> 01:36:34,120 Speaker 1: scholar who also happened to be a the coach to spiritualist, 1506 01:36:34,200 --> 01:36:35,680 Speaker 1: and she's the one who explained it to me at 1507 01:36:35,680 --> 01:36:39,679 Speaker 1: the time. But with the coming of the fourth White 1508 01:36:39,720 --> 01:36:43,360 Speaker 1: Buffalo Calftain, all of the children born after that would 1509 01:36:43,400 --> 01:36:47,360 Speaker 1: be of the seventh generation. So for those tribal people's 1510 01:36:48,000 --> 01:36:50,160 Speaker 1: that generation would be the ones that would lead them 1511 01:36:50,200 --> 01:36:53,080 Speaker 1: to those nations to stand tall again and be and 1512 01:36:53,200 --> 01:36:58,520 Speaker 1: be proud. For all those children that are non Indigenous 1513 01:36:58,720 --> 01:37:01,200 Speaker 1: that were born after that time, ram they're there also 1514 01:37:01,320 --> 01:37:05,320 Speaker 1: part of the seven generation, and as non Indigenous, they're 1515 01:37:05,360 --> 01:37:08,759 Speaker 1: going to be the population that's finally ready for our knowledge. 1516 01:37:09,360 --> 01:37:13,840 Speaker 1: And it was pointed out to me that I was 1517 01:37:13,880 --> 01:37:15,719 Speaker 1: a part of the sixth generation, that I was supposed 1518 01:37:15,720 --> 01:37:17,960 Speaker 1: to be a teacher and then I didn't know all 1519 01:37:18,040 --> 01:37:21,120 Speaker 1: my stories and she was right. So that began that 1520 01:37:21,240 --> 01:37:25,639 Speaker 1: joint that journey for me from going from um general 1521 01:37:25,680 --> 01:37:28,800 Speaker 1: person in Corporate America trying to find out who am 1522 01:37:28,840 --> 01:37:31,160 Speaker 1: I where do I come from, so then when it 1523 01:37:31,240 --> 01:37:34,320 Speaker 1: comes time, I can tell these stories and the hopes 1524 01:37:34,400 --> 01:37:37,120 Speaker 1: that it's gonna make the world a better place. Can 1525 01:37:37,200 --> 01:37:41,800 Speaker 1: you explain to people the uh, the Goal's dancers, because 1526 01:37:41,800 --> 01:37:45,000 Speaker 1: there there was two. There was kind of like two 1527 01:37:45,040 --> 01:37:50,200 Speaker 1: occurrences where someone tried to unite UM. What was the 1528 01:37:50,280 --> 01:37:54,720 Speaker 1: one like related to the you know he was he 1529 01:37:54,840 --> 01:37:58,040 Speaker 1: was from Indiana, right, clumsy, Right, there's yeah, there's two 1530 01:37:58,200 --> 01:38:01,679 Speaker 1: two separate stories. He well, like a person a sort 1531 01:38:01,720 --> 01:38:05,479 Speaker 1: of profit that wanted to unite people that would try 1532 01:38:05,560 --> 01:38:11,640 Speaker 1: to like patch up and inform an allegiance of confederacy 1533 01:38:11,760 --> 01:38:18,280 Speaker 1: to to fight. And then the ghost dance profit or 1534 01:38:18,800 --> 01:38:21,519 Speaker 1: teacher or whatever profit he was similar to he was 1535 01:38:21,600 --> 01:38:24,760 Speaker 1: trying to he was he was trying to communicate with 1536 01:38:24,960 --> 01:38:28,000 Speaker 1: the like with a bunch of historical enemies to bring 1537 01:38:28,160 --> 01:38:32,360 Speaker 1: to buying them together. It was derivation out of the 1538 01:38:33,640 --> 01:38:42,720 Speaker 1: potawatam Um Dreaming Dance Society and UM. Ultimately he had 1539 01:38:42,800 --> 01:38:51,200 Speaker 1: these visions where UM the followers could, through dance and song, 1540 01:38:51,400 --> 01:38:54,679 Speaker 1: could put themselves into a mental state where they could 1541 01:38:55,360 --> 01:38:59,360 Speaker 1: see the other side. And it was their hope that Um, 1542 01:39:00,520 --> 01:39:05,759 Speaker 1: despite what had happened with the loss of the bison 1543 01:39:05,880 --> 01:39:09,760 Speaker 1: and our and our traditional life ways, that the old 1544 01:39:09,840 --> 01:39:12,400 Speaker 1: world would come back, and that's what they were they 1545 01:39:12,439 --> 01:39:14,559 Speaker 1: were seeking. Of course, it was seen by the United 1546 01:39:14,560 --> 01:39:19,960 Speaker 1: States Militarius insurrection and they were summarily attacked and killed 1547 01:39:20,200 --> 01:39:22,760 Speaker 1: up at Wounded Knee and the prophet was killed at 1548 01:39:22,800 --> 01:39:26,840 Speaker 1: that point. What was the second Like, when did the 1549 01:39:26,920 --> 01:39:29,720 Speaker 1: second Wounded Knee massacre? That was the eighteen nineties, right, No, 1550 01:39:30,000 --> 01:39:32,479 Speaker 1: that was in in the nineteen seventies. That had to 1551 01:39:32,560 --> 01:39:36,040 Speaker 1: do with the Red Power movement and the American Indian Movement. 1552 01:39:36,479 --> 01:39:39,160 Speaker 1: Oh no, no, okay, almost, I know. I thought that 1553 01:39:39,240 --> 01:39:42,680 Speaker 1: there was like two Wounded Knee things in close proximity, 1554 01:39:43,520 --> 01:39:46,080 Speaker 1: not that I'm aware of. The first one was pretty 1555 01:39:46,120 --> 01:39:52,479 Speaker 1: brutal and tribes didn't respond back from that till many 1556 01:39:52,560 --> 01:39:55,880 Speaker 1: many years later, and then wounded He became a became 1557 01:39:55,920 --> 01:39:58,639 Speaker 1: a focal point in the seventies, Yes, of the American 1558 01:39:58,680 --> 01:40:06,680 Speaker 1: Indian Movement. That's after they became militant, for sure. One 1559 01:40:06,760 --> 01:40:08,479 Speaker 1: other questions, Oh yeah, no, no, we covered off a 1560 01:40:08,600 --> 01:40:10,720 Speaker 1: big foot. No we didn't. You hadn't heard him talk 1561 01:40:10,760 --> 01:40:13,839 Speaker 1: about bigfoot yet. I don't think he's a big foot enthusiast, 1562 01:40:14,400 --> 01:40:17,960 Speaker 1: a big foot. No, he has something to say. I'll 1563 01:40:18,000 --> 01:40:21,639 Speaker 1: tell you nasty, because Bigfoot is not an American icon. 1564 01:40:21,760 --> 01:40:26,000 Speaker 1: It's a tribal icon. All the tribes we have Bigfoot, 1565 01:40:26,920 --> 01:40:34,040 Speaker 1: the omahas um Hinska Bay. It means the hairy race 1566 01:40:34,280 --> 01:40:38,240 Speaker 1: of people. Really all the tribes, many of the tribes, 1567 01:40:38,320 --> 01:40:41,200 Speaker 1: especially up in the Pacific Northwest. I mean it's it 1568 01:40:41,400 --> 01:40:45,880 Speaker 1: is a spiritual part of their formation. Um. They some 1569 01:40:46,000 --> 01:40:49,520 Speaker 1: of the clans up there are even responsible for protecting 1570 01:40:49,720 --> 01:40:54,599 Speaker 1: the anonymity and the sacredness of them. That has become 1571 01:40:54,680 --> 01:40:58,240 Speaker 1: something out of American popular lore. But that's what, that's what. 1572 01:40:58,640 --> 01:41:00,920 Speaker 1: That's what he said. That helped because we were walking 1573 01:41:00,960 --> 01:41:02,679 Speaker 1: up here, he said, what do you think about Bigfoot? 1574 01:41:03,760 --> 01:41:06,479 Speaker 1: And and he told me, he said, Bigfoot is not 1575 01:41:07,160 --> 01:41:11,360 Speaker 1: doesn't belong to America. I mean, you know America as 1576 01:41:11,439 --> 01:41:15,320 Speaker 1: in like white European culture that dominates America. He said, 1577 01:41:15,360 --> 01:41:18,559 Speaker 1: it belongs to the tribes. And then he I don't 1578 01:41:18,560 --> 01:41:20,400 Speaker 1: want to take your I don't want to tell what 1579 01:41:20,520 --> 01:41:24,320 Speaker 1: you're going to say about that he's a spirit being. 1580 01:41:24,360 --> 01:41:27,639 Speaker 1: But I just did. Many of our of our stories 1581 01:41:27,840 --> 01:41:32,160 Speaker 1: say that there's a relationship between them and the sky people, 1582 01:41:33,760 --> 01:41:38,559 Speaker 1: and so Um, perhaps they can move between different planes 1583 01:41:38,640 --> 01:41:41,479 Speaker 1: of existence. I mean, who were we to say what 1584 01:41:41,720 --> 01:41:44,040 Speaker 1: is real and what's not, what's happening in the spirit 1585 01:41:44,160 --> 01:41:47,000 Speaker 1: world and what's happening here. Many say that they move 1586 01:41:47,120 --> 01:41:52,040 Speaker 1: in between those those those realms. That's been adopted. That 1587 01:41:52,320 --> 01:41:59,880 Speaker 1: attribute has been also adopted by bigfoot researchers to explain 1588 01:42:00,040 --> 01:42:06,360 Speaker 1: why you cannot catch them on a trail camera because 1589 01:42:06,360 --> 01:42:09,479 Speaker 1: they they they like, move out of they move into 1590 01:42:09,520 --> 01:42:14,960 Speaker 1: the ethereal realm and can't be photographed. Do you believe 1591 01:42:15,000 --> 01:42:19,800 Speaker 1: Steve No, Mitch Edward, the comedian mit Chedward, thinks they're 1592 01:42:19,840 --> 01:42:25,800 Speaker 1: just blurry and it's not the photographer's fault. I think 1593 01:42:25,800 --> 01:42:28,439 Speaker 1: it's a barrel two legs. See what I what what 1594 01:42:28,560 --> 01:42:31,640 Speaker 1: I don't? I don't know to me what what he 1595 01:42:31,920 --> 01:42:35,439 Speaker 1: told me gave me. I mean, it just gave me 1596 01:42:35,520 --> 01:42:39,680 Speaker 1: another perspective that that explains this. And I knew that 1597 01:42:40,000 --> 01:42:45,920 Speaker 1: that bigfoot would have been connected to Indigenous Americans, but 1598 01:42:46,080 --> 01:42:48,040 Speaker 1: I guess I didn't know realized that it was something 1599 01:42:48,280 --> 01:42:52,200 Speaker 1: sacred and that it was something that's really valued. You know, 1600 01:42:52,600 --> 01:42:56,519 Speaker 1: that's kind of been you know, hijacked in a way 1601 01:42:57,000 --> 01:42:59,400 Speaker 1: because I told him, I said, no, I don't believe. Well, 1602 01:42:59,479 --> 01:43:01,200 Speaker 1: this is before a story. I said, No, I don't 1603 01:43:01,200 --> 01:43:03,759 Speaker 1: believe in bigfoot. I think people are seeing bipedal bears 1604 01:43:03,800 --> 01:43:05,680 Speaker 1: that have had wounded front feet and are walking on 1605 01:43:05,720 --> 01:43:08,559 Speaker 1: their back legs, which we know for a fact happens. 1606 01:43:08,720 --> 01:43:12,800 Speaker 1: That happens, for sure happens. But no, it just expanded 1607 01:43:13,080 --> 01:43:16,720 Speaker 1: this idea because I mean, the bigfoot or the the 1608 01:43:16,960 --> 01:43:24,280 Speaker 1: hairy hominid like bipedal lore goes so deep. I mean, 1609 01:43:24,360 --> 01:43:26,960 Speaker 1: it's bizarre how deep it goes. I mean, we were 1610 01:43:26,960 --> 01:43:29,360 Speaker 1: talking about the co Yukon. The co Yukon have a 1611 01:43:30,240 --> 01:43:34,840 Speaker 1: very distinct bigfoot like character that is up in Alaska. 1612 01:43:35,080 --> 01:43:39,240 Speaker 1: Every tribe does. Yeah, and we're all complex and deep 1613 01:43:39,320 --> 01:43:44,320 Speaker 1: and rich. So I know in southeast Alaska some of 1614 01:43:44,360 --> 01:43:49,720 Speaker 1: the groups have a there's an otterman, which Hida and 1615 01:43:49,800 --> 01:43:54,040 Speaker 1: Simpscian people have mentioned to me. M. The co Yukon 1616 01:43:54,160 --> 01:43:58,760 Speaker 1: have the woodsman. They call him woodsman, kind of a wilding, right, yeah, 1617 01:43:58,800 --> 01:44:01,160 Speaker 1: and it's not exactly a bigfoot, but that's kind of 1618 01:44:01,200 --> 01:44:03,640 Speaker 1: how they treated it. And they said they were supernatural. 1619 01:44:03,760 --> 01:44:07,120 Speaker 1: They could move in and out of you know, being 1620 01:44:07,160 --> 01:44:09,160 Speaker 1: able to be seen and whatnot. But they were almost 1621 01:44:09,200 --> 01:44:12,000 Speaker 1: like a feral human that was real, Harry. And then 1622 01:44:12,080 --> 01:44:15,320 Speaker 1: of course you have the counterpart to the giants. We 1623 01:44:15,439 --> 01:44:21,040 Speaker 1: all have stories of little people as well, and there 1624 01:44:22,840 --> 01:44:24,960 Speaker 1: very powerful race and they move in and out of 1625 01:44:25,080 --> 01:44:29,120 Speaker 1: this existence. The story that I always like to tell 1626 01:44:29,200 --> 01:44:34,639 Speaker 1: about it I'm I'm I'm a descendant of Baptist Dorian. 1627 01:44:34,840 --> 01:44:37,240 Speaker 1: That's the French part of my Omaha bloodlines. And he 1628 01:44:37,439 --> 01:44:41,200 Speaker 1: was an interpreter for Lewis and Clark. And whenever Lewis 1629 01:44:41,240 --> 01:44:45,479 Speaker 1: and Clark met with the Iway and the Otto at 1630 01:44:45,840 --> 01:44:48,920 Speaker 1: what is now Council Bluffs, Iowa, which is where I live, 1631 01:44:49,960 --> 01:44:52,120 Speaker 1: h the Omahas were not present because they were on 1632 01:44:52,600 --> 01:44:58,640 Speaker 1: bison hunt. But eventually some of the translators and explorers 1633 01:44:58,720 --> 01:45:00,560 Speaker 1: went along, and my ancestra was a part of it. 1634 01:45:00,680 --> 01:45:05,120 Speaker 1: And they got up near Vermillion, South Dakota, and Lewis 1635 01:45:05,160 --> 01:45:09,519 Speaker 1: and Clark wanted to dispatch all of the all of 1636 01:45:09,560 --> 01:45:14,320 Speaker 1: the tribal representatives to go and to explore um. This 1637 01:45:14,640 --> 01:45:18,680 Speaker 1: um they basically a rock mounted spirit lake, and the 1638 01:45:18,760 --> 01:45:22,320 Speaker 1: Omahas dug in their heels and said, uh, we ain't going. 1639 01:45:23,120 --> 01:45:25,840 Speaker 1: And they asked him why, and they said, because we 1640 01:45:25,920 --> 01:45:29,599 Speaker 1: have a story. Uh. There were a number of our warriors. 1641 01:45:29,640 --> 01:45:32,320 Speaker 1: There were three hundred of them that were on a 1642 01:45:34,400 --> 01:45:42,080 Speaker 1: horse rating trip, which was not honorable, and on their 1643 01:45:42,520 --> 01:45:48,240 Speaker 1: return going past uh the rock edifice they're at Spirit Lake, 1644 01:45:48,880 --> 01:45:50,880 Speaker 1: that the little people came out and attacked them and 1645 01:45:50,960 --> 01:45:55,559 Speaker 1: killed over half of them. And so our stories about 1646 01:45:55,600 --> 01:45:59,720 Speaker 1: giants and little people. All the tribes have stories like that. 1647 01:45:59,840 --> 01:46:02,680 Speaker 1: I only know the ones that I've been told, but 1648 01:46:03,360 --> 01:46:06,519 Speaker 1: they go so far back into our history that there 1649 01:46:06,560 --> 01:46:08,920 Speaker 1: has to be something to them. But I mean, there's 1650 01:46:08,960 --> 01:46:13,479 Speaker 1: there's there's parallels with the Gaelic cultures and little people, etcetera. 1651 01:46:15,120 --> 01:46:19,720 Speaker 1: The mound builders. You find very strong similarities between the 1652 01:46:20,720 --> 01:46:24,800 Speaker 1: carnes and rock mounds of northern Europe and what you 1653 01:46:24,840 --> 01:46:27,439 Speaker 1: see in the Mississippian plane as well. So for me, 1654 01:46:27,520 --> 01:46:29,439 Speaker 1: it's just a lot of questions back to that whole 1655 01:46:29,520 --> 01:46:33,200 Speaker 1: tenant of we're all related, but how did all these 1656 01:46:33,240 --> 01:46:36,960 Speaker 1: things rise around the same time and then and then collapse? 1657 01:46:37,439 --> 01:46:38,840 Speaker 1: You know? I think when I when I hear you 1658 01:46:38,960 --> 01:46:42,960 Speaker 1: talk this kind of a broad general statement about here 1659 01:46:43,000 --> 01:46:47,400 Speaker 1: and you talk, is that we so bad want to 1660 01:46:47,520 --> 01:46:52,320 Speaker 1: be able to explain everything that we know, and in science, 1661 01:46:53,400 --> 01:46:58,640 Speaker 1: science is by very essence only able to discern, to 1662 01:46:58,960 --> 01:47:03,639 Speaker 1: understand what is physically observable. I mean, that's the definition 1663 01:47:03,720 --> 01:47:07,360 Speaker 1: of science. Like science does not delve into, you know, 1664 01:47:08,320 --> 01:47:12,960 Speaker 1: things that are metaphysical. And and what I like about 1665 01:47:13,280 --> 01:47:16,840 Speaker 1: hearing some of these, like ancient deep time stories of 1666 01:47:17,120 --> 01:47:20,880 Speaker 1: indigenous people is that we really like to think that 1667 01:47:21,040 --> 01:47:24,439 Speaker 1: we know everything and we just don't. I mean, I 1668 01:47:24,680 --> 01:47:27,959 Speaker 1: did an interview with one of the top wildlife biologists 1669 01:47:28,000 --> 01:47:31,240 Speaker 1: in the country that deals with with white oak trees 1670 01:47:31,320 --> 01:47:36,120 Speaker 1: and acorns, and he when I started drilling down questions 1671 01:47:36,120 --> 01:47:39,120 Speaker 1: about white oak trees, like he was like, Clay, you 1672 01:47:39,160 --> 01:47:41,240 Speaker 1: don't have to dig very far to you realize science 1673 01:47:41,439 --> 01:47:44,360 Speaker 1: does not know all the answers, even about something so 1674 01:47:44,640 --> 01:47:49,080 Speaker 1: simple and not that seemingly important. And just as I 1675 01:47:49,160 --> 01:47:53,240 Speaker 1: hear you talk about even qualms about how long humans 1676 01:47:53,280 --> 01:47:57,080 Speaker 1: have been in North America, and you know, are are 1677 01:47:57,760 --> 01:48:00,800 Speaker 1: the archaeology we know? You know, says X, you know 1678 01:48:01,040 --> 01:48:04,040 Speaker 1: we've been here this long. But and that's just the 1679 01:48:04,160 --> 01:48:07,960 Speaker 1: best that we've got. But your stories say that it 1680 01:48:08,040 --> 01:48:12,240 Speaker 1: goes way back further than that. And uh, and I 1681 01:48:12,439 --> 01:48:15,479 Speaker 1: just feel like we really don't know, and it's okay 1682 01:48:15,560 --> 01:48:17,400 Speaker 1: for us to say we don't know, and it's okay 1683 01:48:17,479 --> 01:48:20,320 Speaker 1: for us to say that the measurements of science do 1684 01:48:20,479 --> 01:48:33,439 Speaker 1: have limitations. Just back to the field of anthropology and 1685 01:48:33,560 --> 01:48:37,800 Speaker 1: its separation from folklore, because that was the scientific part 1686 01:48:37,840 --> 01:48:40,320 Speaker 1: of anthropology, which says we have to have physical evidence 1687 01:48:40,360 --> 01:48:45,000 Speaker 1: for everything, and it ignored folklore and it was only 1688 01:48:45,080 --> 01:48:47,200 Speaker 1: until the last ten years or so. That was one 1689 01:48:47,240 --> 01:48:49,880 Speaker 1: of the works that really inspired me to start my 1690 01:48:50,000 --> 01:48:55,240 Speaker 1: book was reading Tim poc Tat's work on on kah Kia, 1691 01:48:55,880 --> 01:48:58,400 Speaker 1: and he was the first mainstream anthropologist to bust out 1692 01:48:58,439 --> 01:49:00,880 Speaker 1: of the mold and say, hey, we need to we 1693 01:49:00,960 --> 01:49:03,000 Speaker 1: need to look at that tribal stories here to help 1694 01:49:03,600 --> 01:49:05,680 Speaker 1: figure out and that's that's how we come up with 1695 01:49:05,760 --> 01:49:10,120 Speaker 1: the stories of ostracizing people that have spoken against it. 1696 01:49:10,439 --> 01:49:13,360 Speaker 1: You can look back a thousand years and find that, right. 1697 01:49:13,760 --> 01:49:18,360 Speaker 1: So ye, stories for everything. Still, let me ask you 1698 01:49:18,439 --> 01:49:22,080 Speaker 1: how something. We've had this debate on and off over 1699 01:49:22,160 --> 01:49:24,160 Speaker 1: the years, and I just like to get perspective on it. 1700 01:49:25,280 --> 01:49:28,640 Speaker 1: Many of the earth mounds have been ransacked, Okay, Like 1701 01:49:28,840 --> 01:49:30,679 Speaker 1: you have a term like pot hunters, right, so people 1702 01:49:30,720 --> 01:49:34,120 Speaker 1: that would just go dig up caves, dig up um. 1703 01:49:34,760 --> 01:49:37,880 Speaker 1: It starts with arrowheads. Yeah, Well that's why I'm going 1704 01:49:38,280 --> 01:49:40,880 Speaker 1: so people would dig up caves, people would dig up 1705 01:49:40,880 --> 01:49:44,360 Speaker 1: effigy mounds, people dig up cities, haul off the stuff 1706 01:49:44,360 --> 01:49:46,799 Speaker 1: that they thought was a value and and and destroy 1707 01:49:46,920 --> 01:49:57,640 Speaker 1: it from an archaeological perspective, and then desecrated from religious perspective. Say, uh, 1708 01:49:58,880 --> 01:50:03,519 Speaker 1: let's put that at it an extreme, Okay. At the 1709 01:50:03,560 --> 01:50:07,720 Speaker 1: other end is you're out till in the field and 1710 01:50:08,120 --> 01:50:12,320 Speaker 1: up pops a broken arrowhead. Okay, and you put that 1711 01:50:12,439 --> 01:50:15,719 Speaker 1: arrowhead in your pocket because you're thinking until this field 1712 01:50:15,720 --> 01:50:20,080 Speaker 1: all the time. I just kicked it up my field. Yeah. 1713 01:50:20,880 --> 01:50:26,760 Speaker 1: So two questions for you, Um, what's your take on that, 1714 01:50:27,160 --> 01:50:30,559 Speaker 1: on that impulse? And then I want you to judge 1715 01:50:30,640 --> 01:50:36,240 Speaker 1: that impulse. Well, there's two different kinds of people in 1716 01:50:36,280 --> 01:50:38,839 Speaker 1: the world, right, There's people who want to lump everybody 1717 01:50:38,840 --> 01:50:48,040 Speaker 1: into two groups right right. The the the analogy that 1718 01:50:48,120 --> 01:50:51,960 Speaker 1: I thought was interesting at this at this point was, Um, 1719 01:50:52,400 --> 01:50:55,240 Speaker 1: if we all walked up and found a wallet and 1720 01:50:55,320 --> 01:50:57,720 Speaker 1: there was money in it, half of us are going 1721 01:50:57,760 --> 01:51:00,040 Speaker 1: to take it and give it to someone to of 1722 01:51:00,120 --> 01:51:02,840 Speaker 1: it back, right. The other half's gonna take take the 1723 01:51:02,920 --> 01:51:07,360 Speaker 1: money pocketed and to the wallet. Yeah, that's probably all right. 1724 01:51:09,000 --> 01:51:12,960 Speaker 1: So I think I think the same thing, right, But 1725 01:51:13,200 --> 01:51:16,320 Speaker 1: it goes to how we think about objects that we 1726 01:51:16,360 --> 01:51:21,160 Speaker 1: don't understand. Arrowheads would be one of those. On the 1727 01:51:21,920 --> 01:51:25,760 Speaker 1: one end of the extreme is you know people loved 1728 01:51:25,960 --> 01:51:30,200 Speaker 1: to collect arrowheads, Um, my dad did. I've got his 1729 01:51:30,280 --> 01:51:33,559 Speaker 1: collection and at home, your father did that. My dad did, 1730 01:51:34,600 --> 01:51:38,519 Speaker 1: and he loved it, and he like he actively hunted arrowheads. 1731 01:51:38,640 --> 01:51:40,120 Speaker 1: He did, and he gave them, gave them to me. 1732 01:51:41,160 --> 01:51:44,240 Speaker 1: And so I understand that. At the same time, I 1733 01:51:44,439 --> 01:51:48,960 Speaker 1: know that what is in that act? Why is that 1734 01:51:49,080 --> 01:51:55,160 Speaker 1: so important? Philosophically? When you're average American is walking somewhere 1735 01:51:55,320 --> 01:51:58,920 Speaker 1: and sees this arrowhead, what is it that compels them 1736 01:51:59,240 --> 01:52:00,880 Speaker 1: to want to pick it up and to take it 1737 01:52:01,000 --> 01:52:03,880 Speaker 1: for their own. Some may admire the beauty and the 1738 01:52:04,040 --> 01:52:08,919 Speaker 1: history as it is and was and says that's pretty powerful. 1739 01:52:09,000 --> 01:52:11,280 Speaker 1: And maybe if we leave it in the ground, maybe 1740 01:52:11,320 --> 01:52:14,760 Speaker 1: this was an important place. Maybe that arrowhead told the 1741 01:52:14,840 --> 01:52:18,439 Speaker 1: story of how these people lived. Maybe it explains the 1742 01:52:18,720 --> 01:52:21,719 Speaker 1: time period of when that was made. Maybe it's tied 1743 01:52:21,800 --> 01:52:24,479 Speaker 1: to an animal that was ancient that this arrow head 1744 01:52:24,520 --> 01:52:27,600 Speaker 1: went into. There's so much that could be there. And 1745 01:52:27,640 --> 01:52:31,439 Speaker 1: then there's the other perspective, is my land I found it, 1746 01:52:31,960 --> 01:52:36,719 Speaker 1: it's mine and perhaps or something will happen to it. Okay, 1747 01:52:37,240 --> 01:52:40,080 Speaker 1: been there a long time by itself. That's good point. 1748 01:52:41,640 --> 01:52:44,000 Speaker 1: But I think you can't discount the rarity of it. 1749 01:52:44,360 --> 01:52:46,759 Speaker 1: And that's what I mean compels a lot of people 1750 01:52:46,880 --> 01:52:51,720 Speaker 1: to not leave it because I don't know, I mean, 1751 01:52:52,000 --> 01:52:55,560 Speaker 1: did they want it's magic for themselves? Yeah, exactly. I 1752 01:52:55,760 --> 01:52:58,760 Speaker 1: was with some I was with some anthropologists who were 1753 01:52:58,800 --> 01:53:03,080 Speaker 1: doing work in the npr A, so the National Petroleum 1754 01:53:03,120 --> 01:53:06,240 Speaker 1: Reserve Alaska. What they were doing is the head of 1755 01:53:06,240 --> 01:53:09,920 Speaker 1: oil exploration, which is probably inevitable. They were trying to 1756 01:53:10,560 --> 01:53:16,280 Speaker 1: make a map of cultural sites. Um, because when they do, 1757 01:53:16,920 --> 01:53:19,280 Speaker 1: you know, e s a process and all the other 1758 01:53:19,360 --> 01:53:22,519 Speaker 1: processes to go on to extract oil. There needs to 1759 01:53:22,560 --> 01:53:25,600 Speaker 1: be an accounting of what might be destroyed, and it 1760 01:53:25,640 --> 01:53:28,599 Speaker 1: would and the finding of cultural sites would impact where 1761 01:53:28,640 --> 01:53:33,840 Speaker 1: you would build roads, put in wellheads, whatnot. Um, you're 1762 01:53:33,880 --> 01:53:35,639 Speaker 1: in a place that you can't even it's so far 1763 01:53:35,760 --> 01:53:39,040 Speaker 1: out you can't get a helicopter there on a tank 1764 01:53:39,080 --> 01:53:41,720 Speaker 1: of gas. You gotta like take a plane and kick 1765 01:53:41,760 --> 01:53:45,200 Speaker 1: out barrels of gas and then hop scotch from barrel 1766 01:53:45,240 --> 01:53:48,280 Speaker 1: to barrel in a helicopter that's how like remote you are. 1767 01:53:48,880 --> 01:53:52,240 Speaker 1: But anyways, there's just stuff laying out. Man, it's been 1768 01:53:52,240 --> 01:53:54,200 Speaker 1: sitting there thousands of years, like there's no one around 1769 01:53:54,280 --> 01:53:57,920 Speaker 1: to pick it up. Hasn't been And I'm telling you, 1770 01:53:58,080 --> 01:54:01,559 Speaker 1: those guys would photograph the actile points and they would 1771 01:54:01,600 --> 01:54:04,160 Speaker 1: draw the projectile points and they would stick them back 1772 01:54:04,200 --> 01:54:08,560 Speaker 1: in the moss. It was painful for me, painful. I 1773 01:54:08,600 --> 01:54:10,880 Speaker 1: would have visions of coming back out and getting them. 1774 01:54:12,400 --> 01:54:15,800 Speaker 1: I wanted him so bad. I don't know, man, it's 1775 01:54:15,840 --> 01:54:18,720 Speaker 1: just like, because it's so cool, I'd be like, oh, 1776 01:54:19,000 --> 01:54:21,880 Speaker 1: like every part of me. I mean, I would go 1777 01:54:22,080 --> 01:54:25,960 Speaker 1: and revisit, Like I remember one time at camp, leaving camp, 1778 01:54:26,040 --> 01:54:28,920 Speaker 1: walking down, not to take it, but leaving camp, walking down, 1779 01:54:29,040 --> 01:54:32,080 Speaker 1: getting it back out of the moss, looking at it 1780 01:54:32,160 --> 01:54:34,160 Speaker 1: for a long time, sticking it back in the moss, 1781 01:54:35,520 --> 01:54:39,840 Speaker 1: and just like yeah. They'd be like if I don't know, man, 1782 01:54:40,000 --> 01:54:42,800 Speaker 1: Like if you put a boxing nerds out on the 1783 01:54:42,840 --> 01:54:45,440 Speaker 1: ground and my kids found it, they'd be like, now, 1784 01:54:45,480 --> 01:54:46,760 Speaker 1: I'll tell you what I can do with those nerds. 1785 01:54:48,280 --> 01:54:52,600 Speaker 1: It's very I can't explain it. Although there are a 1786 01:54:52,680 --> 01:54:55,040 Speaker 1: lot of things in the natural world that do connect 1787 01:54:55,120 --> 01:54:58,280 Speaker 1: us to you know, way back history. There's very few 1788 01:54:58,360 --> 01:55:01,520 Speaker 1: things that are that physical that you can just look 1789 01:55:01,600 --> 01:55:04,680 Speaker 1: at and hold and it takes you like, well, way back. 1790 01:55:04,880 --> 01:55:09,520 Speaker 1: It's not such a new go ahead. Actually, I want 1791 01:55:09,520 --> 01:55:12,320 Speaker 1: to this one thing. It's a lot of things I 1792 01:55:12,360 --> 01:55:14,680 Speaker 1: don't understand. I can tell you what it's not. It's 1793 01:55:14,800 --> 01:55:18,760 Speaker 1: not meant as an act of disrespect for the person 1794 01:55:18,840 --> 01:55:20,960 Speaker 1: to own that thing. For some and I want to 1795 01:55:20,960 --> 01:55:23,200 Speaker 1: get the opposite. I think it's a it's a it's 1796 01:55:23,200 --> 01:55:30,800 Speaker 1: a thing of like deep reverence curiosity about fascination with 1797 01:55:32,960 --> 01:55:37,480 Speaker 1: the person that made that thing. Sure, but if one 1798 01:55:37,600 --> 01:55:40,360 Speaker 1: takes that, you lose the context of where it was 1799 01:55:40,520 --> 01:55:43,280 Speaker 1: and whatever science might be able to tell us about it. 1800 01:55:43,480 --> 01:55:45,000 Speaker 1: I want to bring that's a good point. I want 1801 01:55:45,000 --> 01:55:47,800 Speaker 1: to bring up to serious things on this topic. So 1802 01:55:47,920 --> 01:55:51,440 Speaker 1: that's on one end of the of the extreme. And 1803 01:55:51,520 --> 01:55:55,000 Speaker 1: then you have in the wake of the passing of 1804 01:55:55,080 --> 01:56:02,839 Speaker 1: the legislation to protect um try remains and funerary Objects 1805 01:56:02,920 --> 01:56:07,200 Speaker 1: known as the Native American Engraves Repatriation Act in the 1806 01:56:07,320 --> 01:56:10,400 Speaker 1: ninety nineties, and prior to that, you have the Archaeological 1807 01:56:10,480 --> 01:56:18,240 Speaker 1: Resource Protection Act, and you have aberrations of this benign 1808 01:56:18,320 --> 01:56:21,560 Speaker 1: mindset about things like arrowheads. And on this other extreme, 1809 01:56:21,720 --> 01:56:25,360 Speaker 1: you have this event that happened with the National Park 1810 01:56:25,440 --> 01:56:31,080 Speaker 1: Service at Effigy Mounds in Iowa and as the rise 1811 01:56:31,200 --> 01:56:35,880 Speaker 1: of Nagpra and State of Iowa also passed an early 1812 01:56:36,000 --> 01:56:41,080 Speaker 1: law saying that you know, if if there are skeletal 1813 01:56:41,320 --> 01:56:44,600 Speaker 1: remains or funerary objects, and ultimately what became the language 1814 01:56:44,640 --> 01:56:50,200 Speaker 1: of Native American Graves and Repatriation Act is anything that 1815 01:56:50,400 --> 01:56:53,960 Speaker 1: is sacred needs to be returned back to the people. 1816 01:56:55,360 --> 01:56:57,320 Speaker 1: And what happened there was they had a number of 1817 01:56:57,400 --> 01:57:02,920 Speaker 1: skeletal remains and the superintendent of the site believe his 1818 01:57:03,040 --> 01:57:10,480 Speaker 1: name is Tom Munson, he was so frustrated with the 1819 01:57:10,640 --> 01:57:13,360 Speaker 1: potential that these objects would be out of their collection. 1820 01:57:14,400 --> 01:57:19,000 Speaker 1: And I believe it was combination of twenty four different 1821 01:57:19,720 --> 01:57:23,440 Speaker 1: human remains from different individuals that were on display, that 1822 01:57:23,560 --> 01:57:27,600 Speaker 1: were on display at different points, and as this the 1823 01:57:28,240 --> 01:57:31,680 Speaker 1: potential risk of this law taking them away from the 1824 01:57:31,720 --> 01:57:36,400 Speaker 1: anthropological archaeological collection, he stole them and tucked him to 1825 01:57:36,480 --> 01:57:40,800 Speaker 1: his house and then lied about it for years and 1826 01:57:41,040 --> 01:57:44,800 Speaker 1: ultimately there had to be an accounting of it. But 1827 01:57:44,960 --> 01:57:47,440 Speaker 1: we're talking about skeletal remains. What do you think what 1828 01:57:47,480 --> 01:57:49,960 Speaker 1: was going on in his head, Um, I have to 1829 01:57:50,040 --> 01:57:51,600 Speaker 1: take this so we don't have to give them back 1830 01:57:51,600 --> 01:57:53,720 Speaker 1: to the Indians, and eventually everyone's going to forget and 1831 01:57:53,760 --> 01:57:56,880 Speaker 1: then we can have them back. So you have this 1832 01:57:57,120 --> 01:58:04,400 Speaker 1: unhealthy relationship between objects that have a tribal provenance and 1833 01:58:04,720 --> 01:58:07,000 Speaker 1: what we would like to see happen to them, any 1834 01:58:07,080 --> 01:58:12,200 Speaker 1: skeletal remains. There's an exception in the America's because of 1835 01:58:12,400 --> 01:58:15,600 Speaker 1: archaeology and anthropology that science came in and says it's 1836 01:58:15,640 --> 01:58:19,960 Speaker 1: okay to take Indian bones. There's been numerous examples of 1837 01:58:20,840 --> 01:58:26,800 Speaker 1: cemeteries and that were damaged during construction, etcetera. They find 1838 01:58:26,840 --> 01:58:29,440 Speaker 1: the white people bones and they bury them properly, and 1839 01:58:29,520 --> 01:58:34,200 Speaker 1: the Indian bones go to the state archaeological societies. Ultimately, 1840 01:58:34,560 --> 01:58:40,560 Speaker 1: it took enforcement of Nagpra to come in and to 1841 01:58:40,880 --> 01:58:44,720 Speaker 1: convict him first keeping and stealing all those all those remains. 1842 01:58:44,800 --> 01:58:49,400 Speaker 1: The tribes were very upset about that and there was 1843 01:58:49,440 --> 01:58:53,840 Speaker 1: no accountability of it. Even further and more political goes 1844 01:58:53,960 --> 01:59:01,240 Speaker 1: to archaeological rich sites like um down in uh outside 1845 01:59:01,240 --> 01:59:06,080 Speaker 1: of Blanding, Utah, and there was a raid that there 1846 01:59:06,240 --> 01:59:12,240 Speaker 1: was twenty four individuals that were ultimately indicted and in 1847 01:59:12,600 --> 01:59:17,120 Speaker 1: between them they had forty thousand objects that they had 1848 01:59:17,280 --> 01:59:20,600 Speaker 1: illegally taken out of the ground, some of which had 1849 01:59:20,640 --> 01:59:29,240 Speaker 1: provenance to six thousand BC pottery shards, human remains, funerary sandals, etcetera. 1850 01:59:30,120 --> 01:59:33,680 Speaker 1: And foremost of those was a doctor by the name 1851 01:59:33,760 --> 01:59:38,960 Speaker 1: of James red And Uh. It was certainly viewed as 1852 01:59:39,040 --> 01:59:43,560 Speaker 1: an over zealous overreach of the FBI and the Bureau 1853 01:59:43,560 --> 01:59:48,120 Speaker 1: of Land Management, but the facts of the case are 1854 01:59:48,280 --> 01:59:51,600 Speaker 1: still the same. There was over forty thousand objects that 1855 01:59:51,720 --> 01:59:54,760 Speaker 1: were gotten in that sting. The economics of it is 1856 01:59:54,840 --> 01:59:56,960 Speaker 1: what is mind boggling to me, because this is the 1857 01:59:57,040 --> 02:00:02,040 Speaker 1: serious part about erahads, etcetera. Was of the two d 1858 02:00:02,240 --> 02:00:06,120 Speaker 1: forty objects that they found there, they used an informant 1859 02:00:06,960 --> 02:00:11,960 Speaker 1: um to try to lure these individuals who are illegally 1860 02:00:12,080 --> 02:00:17,080 Speaker 1: trading them and fuelling the black market and Native American objects. UM. 1861 02:00:19,160 --> 02:00:21,920 Speaker 1: I think they've spen around three thirty thousand, which averaged 1862 02:00:21,960 --> 02:00:27,880 Speaker 1: around forty dollars per object for those two fifty. So 1863 02:00:28,000 --> 02:00:30,280 Speaker 1: if we use that as a proxy and run the numbers, 1864 02:00:30,680 --> 02:00:33,480 Speaker 1: then that collection which they hauled away from those twenty 1865 02:00:33,520 --> 02:00:37,840 Speaker 1: four individuals, UH collection of forty thou would be over 1866 02:00:38,080 --> 02:00:43,160 Speaker 1: fifty three million dollars. So this is one subset of 1867 02:00:43,280 --> 02:00:46,600 Speaker 1: what happens with the black market trade around Native American objects, 1868 02:00:47,080 --> 02:00:50,640 Speaker 1: which have been fetishized beyond the object and the provenance 1869 02:00:51,080 --> 02:00:56,000 Speaker 1: into a horrible black market. So why would the individual 1870 02:00:56,080 --> 02:01:00,160 Speaker 1: who finds the arrowhead or the pottery shard? I can 1871 02:01:00,160 --> 02:01:02,480 Speaker 1: get a hundred bucks for this, And then it goes 1872 02:01:02,560 --> 02:01:07,000 Speaker 1: on and on and on, Doctor Red and the informant 1873 02:01:07,240 --> 02:01:12,440 Speaker 1: sadly committed suicide rather than face the charges. But one 1874 02:01:12,480 --> 02:01:15,440 Speaker 1: of the end the informant killed himself. He did a 1875 02:01:15,600 --> 02:01:18,840 Speaker 1: year a year later. And if you look at stories 1876 02:01:18,880 --> 02:01:22,840 Speaker 1: on this, you're gonna find more stories about the overreach 1877 02:01:23,120 --> 02:01:27,000 Speaker 1: of the federal government. But it certainly doesn't take away 1878 02:01:27,040 --> 02:01:29,680 Speaker 1: from the fact that this was an illustration of the 1879 02:01:29,880 --> 02:01:34,800 Speaker 1: huge black market around Native American objects, especially things that 1880 02:01:34,880 --> 02:01:38,000 Speaker 1: are sacred, human remains, funerary objects, things that should be 1881 02:01:38,160 --> 02:01:42,000 Speaker 1: sacred and left alone. So there's a serious side to 1882 02:01:43,280 --> 02:01:45,640 Speaker 1: hunting objects. Oh, I get the serious side for sure. 1883 02:01:45,680 --> 02:01:49,680 Speaker 1: And I think that you if you went and talk 1884 02:01:49,800 --> 02:01:54,000 Speaker 1: to people, um just like pulled people who are hobbyists 1885 02:01:55,520 --> 02:01:58,000 Speaker 1: you know about, they don't think they're doing anything wrong. Well, 1886 02:01:58,200 --> 02:01:59,680 Speaker 1: you I think you'd find if you said like, hey, 1887 02:02:00,080 --> 02:02:03,720 Speaker 1: you found human skeleton. What you do? I think, you know, 1888 02:02:04,000 --> 02:02:09,160 Speaker 1: the fast majority of people would would recognize it, they 1889 02:02:09,200 --> 02:02:10,920 Speaker 1: wouldn't take it, or they would tell someone or whatever, 1890 02:02:11,000 --> 02:02:13,920 Speaker 1: you know. But I think people sort of spread it 1891 02:02:13,960 --> 02:02:18,720 Speaker 1: out and a view the arrowhead isn't of significance or 1892 02:02:18,800 --> 02:02:22,760 Speaker 1: it was. It wasn't purposefully placed. It was perhaps lost, 1893 02:02:22,960 --> 02:02:25,800 Speaker 1: it was broken. It was just it was discarded and 1894 02:02:25,920 --> 02:02:29,400 Speaker 1: it wasn't like someone putting something somewhere the same way 1895 02:02:29,440 --> 02:02:32,160 Speaker 1: we might look at our own like we might look 1896 02:02:32,240 --> 02:02:36,320 Speaker 1: at a cemetery. Um, Like I might look at the 1897 02:02:36,600 --> 02:02:39,760 Speaker 1: cemetery that my ancestors were buried in and have a 1898 02:02:39,880 --> 02:02:44,080 Speaker 1: very different feeling about it than I would if I found, uh, 1899 02:02:44,480 --> 02:02:47,440 Speaker 1: like an old rusty pistol laying out in the woods, 1900 02:02:49,320 --> 02:02:52,520 Speaker 1: I'd be like, yeah, I can dig up the graveyard, 1901 02:02:52,760 --> 02:02:54,720 Speaker 1: but I just found old rusty pistol out in the woods. 1902 02:02:54,760 --> 02:02:57,080 Speaker 1: I'm gonna take a home with me, you know. I mean, 1903 02:02:57,280 --> 02:02:59,360 Speaker 1: like we we sort of hold these two like we 1904 02:02:59,560 --> 02:03:03,160 Speaker 1: distinct these things, and we we we separate these things 1905 02:03:03,240 --> 02:03:06,520 Speaker 1: out in our head. Um. I can't tell where the 1906 02:03:06,560 --> 02:03:08,160 Speaker 1: line falls for everybody, but I think a lot of 1907 02:03:08,200 --> 02:03:12,840 Speaker 1: people view their being some lines somewhere. It's the bone 1908 02:03:12,960 --> 02:03:16,000 Speaker 1: bone of a human leave it alone. Well, I think 1909 02:03:16,160 --> 02:03:19,800 Speaker 1: I think I really want some clarity from you, just 1910 02:03:19,920 --> 02:03:23,840 Speaker 1: your personal opinion. Like, so obviously there are some legal 1911 02:03:24,160 --> 02:03:26,960 Speaker 1: ramific I mean there there's legal boundaries that guide us, 1912 02:03:27,360 --> 02:03:30,120 Speaker 1: Like obviously we can't mess with human bones. You can't 1913 02:03:30,200 --> 02:03:33,200 Speaker 1: take any kind of artifacts off public land. So let's 1914 02:03:33,200 --> 02:03:37,440 Speaker 1: go to private land. Um, if I'm on my land 1915 02:03:37,520 --> 02:03:40,800 Speaker 1: and see an airhead, should should I pick that up? 1916 02:03:40,840 --> 02:03:43,280 Speaker 1: Should Clay nucom pick it up? If you found a 1917 02:03:43,320 --> 02:03:46,600 Speaker 1: wallet with bucks, would you pick it up or give 1918 02:03:46,640 --> 02:03:48,680 Speaker 1: it back? I would, I would pick it up and 1919 02:03:48,760 --> 02:03:52,520 Speaker 1: give it back. But but I don't. I just I'm 1920 02:03:52,640 --> 02:03:55,280 Speaker 1: I'm just being totally honest with you. I'm struggling to 1921 02:03:55,440 --> 02:04:01,800 Speaker 1: find the the complete Apples to Apple connection there. And 1922 02:04:02,720 --> 02:04:06,080 Speaker 1: because I mean, what am I supposed to if I 1923 02:04:06,120 --> 02:04:07,840 Speaker 1: find an airhead on my land? Am I supposed to 1924 02:04:07,960 --> 02:04:10,840 Speaker 1: call the you know, the the o s Age, the 1925 02:04:10,960 --> 02:04:13,640 Speaker 1: chucktaws that would have been there? And I'm would be 1926 02:04:13,760 --> 02:04:17,520 Speaker 1: interesting for you to do that though, for you as 1927 02:04:17,560 --> 02:04:19,680 Speaker 1: a landowner. And then that's one of the serious parts 1928 02:04:19,760 --> 02:04:22,160 Speaker 1: that I'm hoping comes out of That's a good point 1929 02:04:22,320 --> 02:04:25,640 Speaker 1: talks with people like me, is is that there's so 1930 02:04:25,800 --> 02:04:28,640 Speaker 1: much more to the provenance of this land. You've said 1931 02:04:28,680 --> 02:04:32,200 Speaker 1: that word. Can you tell me what that word means? Yeah, 1932 02:04:32,280 --> 02:04:36,360 Speaker 1: I mean that there's a history. It's like in artwork 1933 02:04:36,480 --> 02:04:39,160 Speaker 1: or in wine or whatever. It's it's the ownership history. 1934 02:04:39,360 --> 02:04:42,640 Speaker 1: Ownership history, got it? Like you know, like some painting 1935 02:04:43,400 --> 02:04:46,720 Speaker 1: comes up, you know, the provence. People are very interested 1936 02:04:46,960 --> 02:04:50,160 Speaker 1: in its flow through times. So I'm Steve, you nailed 1937 02:04:50,200 --> 02:04:53,600 Speaker 1: that one. According to Marriam Webster. Number one because I 1938 02:04:53,720 --> 02:04:57,480 Speaker 1: had to Marriam Webster while we've been talking because he's 1939 02:04:57,560 --> 02:05:01,000 Speaker 1: used it so many times. And the the first definition 1940 02:05:01,160 --> 02:05:04,160 Speaker 1: is just straight origin or source. But then number two 1941 02:05:04,280 --> 02:05:07,240 Speaker 1: is the history of ownership of a valued object or 1942 02:05:07,360 --> 02:05:10,120 Speaker 1: work of art or literature. The reason it's really important 1943 02:05:10,120 --> 02:05:14,520 Speaker 1: in paintings and antiquities is the more solid the provenance is, 1944 02:05:14,640 --> 02:05:17,880 Speaker 1: the less worried you are that that it came that 1945 02:05:18,000 --> 02:05:21,280 Speaker 1: it emerged out of somewhere as a phony. Yeah, Like 1946 02:05:21,560 --> 02:05:23,160 Speaker 1: all you know is like it just came out of 1947 02:05:23,200 --> 02:05:29,160 Speaker 1: the period, out of nowhere in Okay, let me ask 1948 02:05:29,200 --> 02:05:31,920 Speaker 1: you this, Like, so I'm from western Arkansas, close to 1949 02:05:31,960 --> 02:05:36,360 Speaker 1: where you're from originally, and there's a lot of airheads, 1950 02:05:37,000 --> 02:05:39,480 Speaker 1: you know, at laddle points, spear points, a lot of 1951 02:05:39,600 --> 02:05:44,480 Speaker 1: stone points everywhere. I mean, I'm convinced that they are 1952 02:05:45,960 --> 02:05:51,080 Speaker 1: distributed across the landscape everywhere, everywhere. And so think about 1953 02:05:51,160 --> 02:05:53,600 Speaker 1: this or this is just a thought pattern that I 1954 02:05:53,640 --> 02:05:56,960 Speaker 1: would have, Like we have destroyed so much of the 1955 02:05:57,200 --> 02:06:02,680 Speaker 1: earth surface through civilization, covered it with concrete, moved it 1956 02:06:02,960 --> 02:06:09,640 Speaker 1: crops crops like we've we so and I'm okay driving 1957 02:06:09,720 --> 02:06:14,280 Speaker 1: on a road that has destroyed Native American eraheads. Um, 1958 02:06:14,720 --> 02:06:18,280 Speaker 1: But in my mule pasture where my mules tear up 1959 02:06:18,320 --> 02:06:23,120 Speaker 1: the ground and they have trails of dirt that have 1960 02:06:23,320 --> 02:06:28,640 Speaker 1: exposed the ground, I find some stone points. And that's 1961 02:06:28,640 --> 02:06:30,560 Speaker 1: why I would ask you in it just a totally 1962 02:06:30,640 --> 02:06:34,960 Speaker 1: heartfelt question. Is like when I when I pick up 1963 02:06:35,000 --> 02:06:38,400 Speaker 1: a stone point that can out came off my place, 1964 02:06:38,480 --> 02:06:42,360 Speaker 1: which I have I have seen many, I call my 1965 02:06:42,600 --> 02:06:45,360 Speaker 1: kids and usually I'll call them out before I pick 1966 02:06:45,400 --> 02:06:47,560 Speaker 1: it up if they're home, and say look at that. 1967 02:06:48,360 --> 02:06:51,880 Speaker 1: I'll say, the last human to touch that was planning 1968 02:06:51,920 --> 02:06:56,400 Speaker 1: to cook his dinner over a fire with an animal 1969 02:06:56,440 --> 02:06:58,600 Speaker 1: that he killed with that point. I mean, we it's 1970 02:06:58,640 --> 02:07:00,800 Speaker 1: a moment, man, I mean it's just like, oh, look 1971 02:07:00,800 --> 02:07:05,200 Speaker 1: at this, does that count for for some value? Like 1972 02:07:05,480 --> 02:07:07,720 Speaker 1: what should I do with those? Well, I mean, what 1973 02:07:07,800 --> 02:07:10,680 Speaker 1: would you do with them? That's a good question. The 1974 02:07:10,760 --> 02:07:15,080 Speaker 1: example that I would point to was Steve's example of 1975 02:07:15,520 --> 02:07:18,720 Speaker 1: finding a bison skull. You go on a journey and 1976 02:07:18,880 --> 02:07:22,480 Speaker 1: you find out the two the true provenance of that 1977 02:07:22,640 --> 02:07:25,200 Speaker 1: animal in its histories, and I reported it and you 1978 02:07:25,320 --> 02:07:30,000 Speaker 1: reported it, but it's in my mouth. Yeah, after learning 1979 02:07:30,040 --> 02:07:31,920 Speaker 1: all that I've learned, I would want to leave it there, 1980 02:07:32,840 --> 02:07:37,720 Speaker 1: and at a certain point would want to introduce science 1981 02:07:37,760 --> 02:07:40,480 Speaker 1: into it to see what we could understand about what 1982 02:07:40,640 --> 02:07:43,920 Speaker 1: that piece was, Like, what period was it from, what 1983 02:07:44,040 --> 02:07:46,840 Speaker 1: were they hunting, who was doing the hunting, Just a 1984 02:07:46,920 --> 02:07:53,360 Speaker 1: lot of questions and hopefully layering into the history as 1985 02:07:53,400 --> 02:07:55,080 Speaker 1: we know it from the object that's looking at it 1986 02:07:55,160 --> 02:07:59,720 Speaker 1: on the ground, coupled with science and then a layer 1987 02:07:59,840 --> 02:08:04,720 Speaker 1: of indigenous history or provenance into it, can only add 1988 02:08:04,920 --> 02:08:07,400 Speaker 1: to the value of the history of the object. And 1989 02:08:07,480 --> 02:08:09,320 Speaker 1: that's my whole point with all of this, is that 1990 02:08:10,160 --> 02:08:14,680 Speaker 1: wherever you look across America, there's all these objects, there's 1991 02:08:14,680 --> 02:08:17,200 Speaker 1: all this history. It's there for all of us to 1992 02:08:17,320 --> 02:08:20,960 Speaker 1: understand and to help enhance our own experience as Americans 1993 02:08:22,280 --> 02:08:24,600 Speaker 1: speaking of history. Now that we haven't speaking about anything 1994 02:08:24,640 --> 02:08:29,720 Speaker 1: besides history, can you explain to everybody, UM, about the 1995 02:08:29,760 --> 02:08:35,160 Speaker 1: Sacred Seeds Project. Absolutely. When I began to write the book, 1996 02:08:35,880 --> 02:08:39,080 Speaker 1: became pretty apparent after doing a lot of research that 1997 02:08:40,360 --> 02:08:44,280 Speaker 1: the rise of the Mississippian mound builder culture had a 1998 02:08:44,360 --> 02:08:46,640 Speaker 1: lot to do with the food that they were eating. 1999 02:08:47,880 --> 02:08:52,640 Speaker 1: And around this the same time frame, actually a little 2000 02:08:52,640 --> 02:08:57,520 Speaker 1: bit earlier, Um, one of my mentors in life, Dr 2001 02:08:57,600 --> 02:09:00,920 Speaker 1: Dward Walker, is the chair emeritus of Anthropology see you Boulder. 2002 02:09:01,440 --> 02:09:03,920 Speaker 1: He began to watch some of the trends that was 2003 02:09:04,000 --> 02:09:07,800 Speaker 1: happening with some of the big seed companies like Monsanto 2004 02:09:08,240 --> 02:09:10,320 Speaker 1: cin Genta, and what they were doing in other countries 2005 02:09:10,400 --> 02:09:14,480 Speaker 1: like the country of India, and ultimately I mean like 2006 02:09:14,560 --> 02:09:18,800 Speaker 1: trademarking seeds and yes in intellectual property protection, but was 2007 02:09:18,880 --> 02:09:23,040 Speaker 1: also displacing them of their indigenous seeds and getting them 2008 02:09:23,160 --> 02:09:29,680 Speaker 1: their own contract bound genetically modified organism seeds and which 2009 02:09:29,760 --> 02:09:34,800 Speaker 1: is basically what the American farmer does, um loose seeds 2010 02:09:35,120 --> 02:09:38,120 Speaker 1: the corn that we see in fields as clones and 2011 02:09:38,320 --> 02:09:46,080 Speaker 1: it's uh one small variation of corn compared to the 2012 02:09:46,160 --> 02:09:49,280 Speaker 1: thousands of types of corn that were here before, and 2013 02:09:49,400 --> 02:09:53,000 Speaker 1: so I began to study the Mississippian record, and basically, 2014 02:09:53,600 --> 02:09:56,920 Speaker 1: where there was corn in abundance, there were people in abundance, 2015 02:09:57,720 --> 02:10:00,640 Speaker 1: and where there was corn, there were people, there was life. 2016 02:10:01,440 --> 02:10:04,840 Speaker 1: And so from a cosmological perspective, that was the gift 2017 02:10:04,960 --> 02:10:08,880 Speaker 1: of old woman who gave us seeds, and she gave 2018 02:10:08,960 --> 02:10:11,040 Speaker 1: us corn. And all the tribes have different stories, but 2019 02:10:11,160 --> 02:10:15,040 Speaker 1: it's so integral to our life ways and cosmology and 2020 02:10:15,160 --> 02:10:19,080 Speaker 1: survival that you can't get around it. And so I 2021 02:10:19,160 --> 02:10:21,120 Speaker 1: began my own journey of trying to find some of 2022 02:10:21,200 --> 02:10:26,960 Speaker 1: these ancient seeds and what it meant. Um. We were 2023 02:10:26,960 --> 02:10:31,280 Speaker 1: talking about about this before the podcast Johnny, about what 2024 02:10:31,440 --> 02:10:35,080 Speaker 1: happens when of your ancestors are gone at some point. 2025 02:10:35,560 --> 02:10:38,920 Speaker 1: Did it all happen at once, No, it was very devastating. 2026 02:10:39,600 --> 02:10:44,400 Speaker 1: The examples in Nebraska was because of our proximity to 2027 02:10:44,440 --> 02:10:47,240 Speaker 1: the middle of the country, the tribes there, we weren't 2028 02:10:47,280 --> 02:10:49,960 Speaker 1: hit until the late seventeen hundreds and early eighteen hundreds. 2029 02:10:50,840 --> 02:10:54,800 Speaker 1: It was a wave in late seventeen hundred, eighteen thirty, 2030 02:10:55,040 --> 02:10:59,400 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty, and perhaps more waves, but the cumulative effect 2031 02:10:59,480 --> 02:11:02,560 Speaker 1: was ninety present decimation rates. So it just may have 2032 02:11:02,640 --> 02:11:06,480 Speaker 1: happened in one place and eight hundreds in the other, 2033 02:11:06,760 --> 02:11:10,920 Speaker 1: but the net effect was not loss of knowledge for sure, 2034 02:11:12,120 --> 02:11:14,720 Speaker 1: and so whatever we can do to find our way 2035 02:11:14,800 --> 02:11:19,440 Speaker 1: back to that. What I found was starting with basically 2036 02:11:19,560 --> 02:11:23,040 Speaker 1: thirty seeds from the Cherokee Nation Seed Saving Project and 2037 02:11:23,120 --> 02:11:27,640 Speaker 1: planting those in the ground. There was something about understanding 2038 02:11:27,760 --> 02:11:32,880 Speaker 1: that history, understanding how we planted, when we planted, why, 2039 02:11:33,720 --> 02:11:37,680 Speaker 1: what shape, what seeds? How did you plant them? And 2040 02:11:37,760 --> 02:11:43,160 Speaker 1: began to piece together this companion planting agricultural life ways 2041 02:11:43,200 --> 02:11:46,480 Speaker 1: that was at the center center of how people survived 2042 02:11:46,520 --> 02:11:49,520 Speaker 1: on this continent for at least two thousand years ago 2043 02:11:49,560 --> 02:11:53,600 Speaker 1: and probably much beyond that. And by putting my hands 2044 02:11:53,640 --> 02:11:59,960 Speaker 1: in the soil, by understanding the rhythms, talking with elder 2045 02:12:00,120 --> 02:12:03,040 Speaker 1: is piecing together these things back I began to find 2046 02:12:03,080 --> 02:12:06,560 Speaker 1: all these little tidbits, um we're supposed to plant on 2047 02:12:06,640 --> 02:12:09,960 Speaker 1: the New Moon in May. There's a flower that grows, 2048 02:12:11,440 --> 02:12:14,080 Speaker 1: the first one that that flowers, that's when you plant 2049 02:12:14,720 --> 02:12:19,520 Speaker 1: other parts of the crop. When we left them, they 2050 02:12:19,560 --> 02:12:24,200 Speaker 1: were dropped resistant seeds. And all of these things began 2051 02:12:24,320 --> 02:12:29,320 Speaker 1: to impact how I felt, and I truly felt by 2052 02:12:29,400 --> 02:12:32,800 Speaker 1: doing these acts by having a good heart, by doing 2053 02:12:32,880 --> 02:12:37,120 Speaker 1: them for the right reasons, not for money. Back to 2054 02:12:37,200 --> 02:12:40,920 Speaker 1: the whole notion of Robin's work around sacred economies and 2055 02:12:41,000 --> 02:12:45,640 Speaker 1: sacred reciprocity, that it began to change me in a way. 2056 02:12:45,680 --> 02:12:49,879 Speaker 1: I'm very familiar with inter generational trauma and the impact 2057 02:12:49,960 --> 02:12:53,080 Speaker 1: of what colonization has had on indigenous peoples. And it's 2058 02:12:53,120 --> 02:12:57,600 Speaker 1: it's rough, it's really hard. But on the converse side, 2059 02:12:58,120 --> 02:13:01,560 Speaker 1: perhaps it has to do with epigenetic But by getting 2060 02:13:01,680 --> 02:13:04,760 Speaker 1: my hands and the soil, by growing these plants, by 2061 02:13:04,880 --> 02:13:08,920 Speaker 1: learning from them, that is healing me, and that it 2062 02:13:08,960 --> 02:13:12,200 Speaker 1: can heal others. And we have a notion of blood 2063 02:13:12,280 --> 02:13:17,240 Speaker 1: memory that somehow the ancestors through our DNA will help 2064 02:13:17,360 --> 02:13:20,600 Speaker 1: us understand how to put this all back together. How 2065 02:13:20,680 --> 02:13:24,800 Speaker 1: can we live better again? Um I look at the 2066 02:13:24,880 --> 02:13:27,720 Speaker 1: landscape and I see things differently, after doing all this work, 2067 02:13:28,440 --> 02:13:31,200 Speaker 1: after studying to be a teacher of the sixth generation. 2068 02:13:32,000 --> 02:13:36,120 Speaker 1: I look across this landscape and I see the lands, 2069 02:13:36,440 --> 02:13:39,440 Speaker 1: the land that once was. I see the land that 2070 02:13:39,520 --> 02:13:46,680 Speaker 1: could be again. I see bison herds massive where everyone 2071 02:13:46,720 --> 02:13:51,920 Speaker 1: could hunt them again. The food that they eat is 2072 02:13:52,000 --> 02:13:56,839 Speaker 1: back again, switch grass, the bison grass, it's buffalo commons 2073 02:13:58,360 --> 02:14:01,120 Speaker 1: um bing or action of all these things that we're 2074 02:14:01,280 --> 02:14:04,120 Speaker 1: begin to see again things that were important to tribal peoples, 2075 02:14:04,120 --> 02:14:06,960 Speaker 1: that are part of our clan systems. The role of 2076 02:14:07,160 --> 02:14:12,160 Speaker 1: wolf and elk and bison, and how these this is 2077 02:14:12,240 --> 02:14:16,840 Speaker 1: what the land here was meant two produced to sustain people. 2078 02:14:18,960 --> 02:14:25,320 Speaker 1: But I look and see every tillable acre planted. I 2079 02:14:25,480 --> 02:14:32,760 Speaker 1: see invasive species of cows everywhere. When those resources are scant, 2080 02:14:33,160 --> 02:14:37,720 Speaker 1: who wins who has priority? The private landholder and the cow, 2081 02:14:38,560 --> 02:14:42,080 Speaker 1: the elk, the natural order of things. These are the 2082 02:14:42,160 --> 02:14:46,120 Speaker 1: things that I ponder. But ultimately that's what Sacred Seat 2083 02:14:46,200 --> 02:14:49,960 Speaker 1: is about, is exploring those journeys going backwards in time, 2084 02:14:50,000 --> 02:14:54,480 Speaker 1: but also in the age of monocrop cultures, potential failures 2085 02:14:54,520 --> 02:14:57,720 Speaker 1: of those. Hopefully, someday people are going to be glad 2086 02:14:58,520 --> 02:15:01,400 Speaker 1: that people like me find all these diverse seeds, all 2087 02:15:01,480 --> 02:15:05,080 Speaker 1: these different types of corn um, that we have this 2088 02:15:05,360 --> 02:15:08,800 Speaker 1: multiplicity of seeds, so that someday we're gonna be glad 2089 02:15:08,840 --> 02:15:11,480 Speaker 1: that we have it, and not to mention just the 2090 02:15:11,960 --> 02:15:14,880 Speaker 1: richness and the beauty that comes from all these different 2091 02:15:14,920 --> 02:15:20,800 Speaker 1: type of seeds. Do you have somewhere of facility or 2092 02:15:21,680 --> 02:15:26,360 Speaker 1: you know, how are you storing these things and sort 2093 02:15:26,400 --> 02:15:30,400 Speaker 1: of codifying, you know, whatever knowledge is there. I brought 2094 02:15:30,480 --> 02:15:36,160 Speaker 1: some men. This is um. There's corn bean and squashing here, 2095 02:15:37,800 --> 02:15:43,800 Speaker 1: and this is um an ancient variety actually in my 2096 02:15:45,000 --> 02:15:48,040 Speaker 1: studies to find all this stuff. Ultimately we found these 2097 02:15:48,200 --> 02:15:51,040 Speaker 1: older collections and one of the things that I was 2098 02:15:51,120 --> 02:15:55,760 Speaker 1: so curious to find was an Omaha rainbow flint, which 2099 02:15:55,800 --> 02:15:58,680 Speaker 1: I couldn't find anywhere, and ultimately in the collections of 2100 02:15:58,760 --> 02:16:02,440 Speaker 1: Carl Barnes, the Cherokee individual who, over the course of 2101 02:16:02,480 --> 02:16:06,680 Speaker 1: his eighty five years here he collected over different types 2102 02:16:06,720 --> 02:16:09,040 Speaker 1: of seeds across Holiday America's and some of them are 2103 02:16:09,040 --> 02:16:12,760 Speaker 1: still viable when you're looking at some right here m hm. 2104 02:16:13,840 --> 02:16:15,600 Speaker 1: So yeah, he has a I mean it's like a 2105 02:16:15,880 --> 02:16:21,440 Speaker 1: jet black, deep purple, is red red, and those seeds 2106 02:16:21,600 --> 02:16:24,440 Speaker 1: corn it's about like the size of like what what 2107 02:16:24,480 --> 02:16:26,360 Speaker 1: you sort of considered to be a real big carrot. 2108 02:16:27,360 --> 02:16:28,840 Speaker 1: They can be a lot bigger than that. That was 2109 02:16:28,880 --> 02:16:30,480 Speaker 1: one of the smaller years. That's the only one that 2110 02:16:30,600 --> 02:16:35,480 Speaker 1: wasn't shelled. But that is a ruby flint, blood blood, 2111 02:16:35,520 --> 02:16:38,800 Speaker 1: blood red. What does it taste like? Uh, probably the 2112 02:16:38,840 --> 02:16:43,240 Speaker 1: difference between commercial white rice and wild rice that you'd 2113 02:16:43,240 --> 02:16:47,080 Speaker 1: find up around the Great Lakes just has a much deeper, richy, 2114 02:16:47,480 --> 02:16:55,160 Speaker 1: earthy taste to them. Uh. You know, sweet is one variety. Um, 2115 02:16:55,440 --> 02:16:59,960 Speaker 1: there's flower, there's flint, there's popping corn, and there's sweet corn. 2116 02:17:01,000 --> 02:17:03,880 Speaker 1: And uh, I've never had much luck with growing the 2117 02:17:03,920 --> 02:17:06,760 Speaker 1: sweet varieties because it's sugar and all things in nature 2118 02:17:06,840 --> 02:17:13,200 Speaker 1: like sugar. So bugs, raccoons, they love it. So you 2119 02:17:13,840 --> 02:17:18,800 Speaker 1: you these these seeds would have been, um, you don't 2120 02:17:18,840 --> 02:17:21,959 Speaker 1: think they would have been hybridized with modern varieties. I mean, 2121 02:17:22,040 --> 02:17:24,480 Speaker 1: as much as we can tell. I mean, they were 2122 02:17:24,560 --> 02:17:31,080 Speaker 1: all turned into hybrids to you know, grow well locally, 2123 02:17:31,120 --> 02:17:33,560 Speaker 1: which is basically what I'm attempting to do too. So 2124 02:17:34,480 --> 02:17:38,199 Speaker 1: the the version that I originally had was a rainbow flint. 2125 02:17:38,920 --> 02:17:41,640 Speaker 1: And some of these seeds are more sacred to others. 2126 02:17:41,720 --> 02:17:45,040 Speaker 1: So we were talking earlier about clan taboos, etcetera. So 2127 02:17:45,120 --> 02:17:48,760 Speaker 1: amongst my mother's tribe, the Omaha um my clan is 2128 02:17:48,879 --> 02:17:55,320 Speaker 1: responsible for keeping the sacred red corn. And now I'm 2129 02:17:55,320 --> 02:17:58,200 Speaker 1: glad to say that we have our own varieties of 2130 02:17:58,240 --> 02:18:02,480 Speaker 1: our sacred red back. One of the clan taboos is 2131 02:18:02,720 --> 02:18:07,360 Speaker 1: that who is better to keep the red corn than 2132 02:18:07,400 --> 02:18:09,080 Speaker 1: those that can't even touch it, which is why it 2133 02:18:09,160 --> 02:18:10,800 Speaker 1: was in the bag and why I didn't touch it 2134 02:18:11,600 --> 02:18:14,000 Speaker 1: because my clan is not allowed to touch that's one 2135 02:18:14,040 --> 02:18:16,200 Speaker 1: of the clan taboos. What do you do with it? 2136 02:18:17,240 --> 02:18:19,920 Speaker 1: I'm the protector of it. I mean, wouldn't eat that. 2137 02:18:20,160 --> 02:18:23,160 Speaker 1: I can't touch it. I can't eat it. So your 2138 02:18:23,200 --> 02:18:24,760 Speaker 1: clan would have grown it, and then what would they 2139 02:18:24,800 --> 02:18:26,400 Speaker 1: have done with it? Shared it with the rest of 2140 02:18:26,440 --> 02:18:29,800 Speaker 1: the tribe and every clan. So your clan is inside 2141 02:18:29,840 --> 02:18:33,280 Speaker 1: of your tribe. That's okay, so it's a bigger tribe. 2142 02:18:33,320 --> 02:18:37,600 Speaker 1: But your particular clan had this job. So that's like 2143 02:18:37,720 --> 02:18:39,440 Speaker 1: that idea, that too. Better to keep it than the 2144 02:18:39,480 --> 02:18:42,000 Speaker 1: one that can't touch it. A lot of people have 2145 02:18:42,120 --> 02:18:46,080 Speaker 1: trouble with that. It's good man, get him he can't 2146 02:18:46,080 --> 02:18:48,000 Speaker 1: eat it, right, It will be there when you come 2147 02:18:48,000 --> 02:18:50,080 Speaker 1: looking for it will be So what would they have 2148 02:18:50,240 --> 02:18:53,320 Speaker 1: used this corn for? Would they have grounded up? Could 2149 02:18:53,320 --> 02:18:55,360 Speaker 1: you boil that and eat it like corn on the cob? 2150 02:18:55,480 --> 02:18:57,200 Speaker 1: Like you could, but that's not the best way to 2151 02:18:57,560 --> 02:19:00,520 Speaker 1: make it healthy. Historically, as one of the things that 2152 02:19:00,600 --> 02:19:03,959 Speaker 1: we found from the anthropological record was that in its 2153 02:19:04,440 --> 02:19:10,800 Speaker 1: raw form or ground and flint's have a thicker I'd 2154 02:19:10,879 --> 02:19:15,400 Speaker 1: like to see that passing around. And there's also beans 2155 02:19:15,480 --> 02:19:18,480 Speaker 1: there that are from the Cherokee side. The trailer tear 2156 02:19:18,520 --> 02:19:22,440 Speaker 1: beans would literally sustained us. And those are indigenous squash 2157 02:19:22,520 --> 02:19:25,520 Speaker 1: seeds there. So the three grown together. It's very important. 2158 02:19:26,240 --> 02:19:28,600 Speaker 1: Corn takes a lot of nitrogen out of the soil. 2159 02:19:28,760 --> 02:19:32,320 Speaker 1: Beans put it back. Um. Squash keeps a lot of 2160 02:19:32,440 --> 02:19:36,320 Speaker 1: things out of their deer raccoon raccoons love corn, and 2161 02:19:36,360 --> 02:19:40,120 Speaker 1: so when you plant them all together, um, you have 2162 02:19:40,200 --> 02:19:45,280 Speaker 1: a whole different perspective of growing that is more sustainable, 2163 02:19:45,360 --> 02:19:49,080 Speaker 1: so to speak. Um, because when you look at the 2164 02:19:49,120 --> 02:19:54,720 Speaker 1: differences between Euro American agg methodologies, one is put them 2165 02:19:54,760 --> 02:19:58,240 Speaker 1: in rows and then switch out the fields, whereas ours 2166 02:19:59,520 --> 02:20:03,320 Speaker 1: rarely moved, um except for like a tenure time period. 2167 02:20:04,879 --> 02:20:09,360 Speaker 1: So I'm a little more sustainable from that perspective. But 2168 02:20:09,520 --> 02:20:13,440 Speaker 1: it's just been my journey with these seeds too. To educate. 2169 02:20:13,959 --> 02:20:19,800 Speaker 1: Going back to Robin's work on braiding sweet grass, she 2170 02:20:19,959 --> 02:20:25,520 Speaker 1: had a dream after visiting I believe it was a 2171 02:20:25,760 --> 02:20:30,960 Speaker 1: trading market in South America, and in her dream she 2172 02:20:31,080 --> 02:20:35,240 Speaker 1: went and money was no good, only the sacred currency 2173 02:20:35,360 --> 02:20:38,920 Speaker 1: of other things that you could trade, and my students 2174 02:20:39,120 --> 02:20:41,800 Speaker 1: caught caught that for sure. And when I began Sacred Sy, 2175 02:20:41,959 --> 02:20:44,400 Speaker 1: we looked at being a seed bank for money taken 2176 02:20:44,440 --> 02:20:48,040 Speaker 1: on U. S. D A grants millions of dollars and 2177 02:20:48,160 --> 02:20:51,680 Speaker 1: they finally said no, let's just leave it as it is, 2178 02:20:51,920 --> 02:20:54,879 Speaker 1: and that's how it got the name. So rather than 2179 02:20:54,920 --> 02:21:00,320 Speaker 1: trying to exploit the plant nation for corn here um, 2180 02:21:00,600 --> 02:21:02,920 Speaker 1: I just utilize it to to share and to educate 2181 02:21:02,920 --> 02:21:05,280 Speaker 1: and show people the beauty because this is not what 2182 02:21:05,360 --> 02:21:08,520 Speaker 1: we think of a corner. This whole plant is red purple. 2183 02:21:11,200 --> 02:21:13,440 Speaker 1: That's why I brought this in broken because you can 2184 02:21:13,480 --> 02:21:16,320 Speaker 1: see the cob is red and the stock is red. 2185 02:21:16,680 --> 02:21:19,400 Speaker 1: Stock starts green and then turned a deep purple red 2186 02:21:20,240 --> 02:21:22,600 Speaker 1: and usually we'll make it about three quarters away before 2187 02:21:22,920 --> 02:21:25,840 Speaker 1: the seeds are ready. So is there like this seed 2188 02:21:26,440 --> 02:21:29,080 Speaker 1: with the organization, would there be a way for I mean, 2189 02:21:29,160 --> 02:21:33,760 Speaker 1: are you distributing seed in any way to tribes or people? 2190 02:21:33,959 --> 02:21:37,160 Speaker 1: I do um. When we first started, it was really 2191 02:21:37,200 --> 02:21:39,600 Speaker 1: a matter of you know, I had just a handful 2192 02:21:39,680 --> 02:21:41,560 Speaker 1: of different type of seeds and I've got so many 2193 02:21:41,640 --> 02:21:44,720 Speaker 1: different stories of how seeds came to us. It was 2194 02:21:44,840 --> 02:21:48,119 Speaker 1: one fun story. There was a guy that was um 2195 02:21:48,879 --> 02:21:51,560 Speaker 1: descendant of the original homesteader. I want to say it 2196 02:21:51,680 --> 02:21:54,320 Speaker 1: was fifth grade grandfather. I don't know what it was, 2197 02:21:54,440 --> 02:21:57,200 Speaker 1: but he was a nice man and he had been 2198 02:21:57,240 --> 02:22:01,360 Speaker 1: digging on his land and found a noble corn grist stone, 2199 02:22:02,440 --> 02:22:04,960 Speaker 1: and he did the right thing, and he contacted did 2200 02:22:05,040 --> 02:22:07,680 Speaker 1: his research and found out the tribe that it came from, 2201 02:22:07,840 --> 02:22:14,840 Speaker 1: the Pawnees, and he contacted them and they told him 2202 02:22:15,360 --> 02:22:18,200 Speaker 1: it sounds like one of ours. Why don't you come 2203 02:22:18,240 --> 02:22:20,280 Speaker 1: on down and we'll talk about it. So he did. 2204 02:22:20,840 --> 02:22:24,440 Speaker 1: Mind you, that's a trip from western Nebraska down to Oklahoma. 2205 02:22:25,600 --> 02:22:31,720 Speaker 1: And when they got there there tribal historic preservation officer 2206 02:22:31,800 --> 02:22:33,920 Speaker 1: pulled out one similar and says, yep, that looks like 2207 02:22:34,040 --> 02:22:40,840 Speaker 1: one of ours. And in a true sacred reciprocity trading agreement, 2208 02:22:41,560 --> 02:22:44,120 Speaker 1: they said, you know what, we're gonna We're gonna take this, 2209 02:22:45,160 --> 02:22:51,800 Speaker 1: but we're gonna give you these being seeds here. And uh, 2210 02:22:52,040 --> 02:22:55,120 Speaker 1: I can't I never remember if it's spotted like a 2211 02:22:55,240 --> 02:22:58,040 Speaker 1: horse or painted like a horse beans, but they're absolutely 2212 02:22:58,120 --> 02:23:01,360 Speaker 1: gorgeous and it's a bush bean and it's what the 2213 02:23:01,440 --> 02:23:05,560 Speaker 1: Pawnees used, and uh I love it. I knew the 2214 02:23:05,600 --> 02:23:07,400 Speaker 1: story is for real. When he told me all these things, 2215 02:23:07,440 --> 02:23:10,160 Speaker 1: one they made him go down there. You know, there's 2216 02:23:10,200 --> 02:23:12,480 Speaker 1: no put it in a mail package and let's talk 2217 02:23:12,480 --> 02:23:14,560 Speaker 1: about it later. They're like, bring it down on this talk. 2218 02:23:15,160 --> 02:23:17,120 Speaker 1: Once they got there, Once they gave him the seeds, 2219 02:23:18,040 --> 02:23:25,160 Speaker 1: they said, no white man's ever had these before. Well, 2220 02:23:25,520 --> 02:23:27,320 Speaker 1: he was afraid to plant them. So when he heard 2221 02:23:27,360 --> 02:23:30,680 Speaker 1: one of my podcasts or stories, he contacted me and says, 2222 02:23:30,800 --> 02:23:34,120 Speaker 1: I'm I'm afraid to screw this up. And of course 2223 02:23:34,360 --> 02:23:36,240 Speaker 1: he's I said, well, wy don't you put him in 2224 02:23:36,280 --> 02:23:38,280 Speaker 1: the mail And he'sa no, why don't you come get him? 2225 02:23:38,920 --> 02:23:41,680 Speaker 1: I had to go get him. That's great. So there's 2226 02:23:41,680 --> 02:23:44,040 Speaker 1: all sorts of stories with this project. This has been 2227 02:23:44,080 --> 02:23:47,720 Speaker 1: really beautiful. It's an educational content to explain to people 2228 02:23:47,840 --> 02:23:51,600 Speaker 1: and ultimately, you know, keep finding all these different hybrids 2229 02:23:51,879 --> 02:23:55,440 Speaker 1: that ultimately should be helpful to us as human beings. Someday. 2230 02:23:56,280 --> 02:24:01,600 Speaker 1: Um I asked one question, got one. It's not an 2231 02:24:01,640 --> 02:24:06,160 Speaker 1: Ottle baby question, but I'm wondering because we talked about 2232 02:24:06,160 --> 02:24:08,800 Speaker 1: it while we're having our snacks before the podcast, and 2233 02:24:08,879 --> 02:24:12,800 Speaker 1: we're talking about this the problem of smallpox that really 2234 02:24:12,879 --> 02:24:16,680 Speaker 1: decimated population and thus decimated the oral history that was there, 2235 02:24:17,720 --> 02:24:20,040 Speaker 1: So knowing that that's sort of like a chink in 2236 02:24:20,120 --> 02:24:24,640 Speaker 1: the armor of this history cultural amnesia perhaps sure, and 2237 02:24:24,959 --> 02:24:27,000 Speaker 1: maybe that's just a part of it, and that's and 2238 02:24:27,120 --> 02:24:30,440 Speaker 1: then and then your people just accept that as a 2239 02:24:30,560 --> 02:24:33,760 Speaker 1: part of being people that do oral history. But now 2240 02:24:33,959 --> 02:24:37,279 Speaker 1: you as someone as in a historian, that you're gaining 2241 02:24:37,360 --> 02:24:39,959 Speaker 1: all these stories and you're learning more and more. Are 2242 02:24:40,040 --> 02:24:44,000 Speaker 1: you just going oral history or are you now writing 2243 02:24:44,040 --> 02:24:46,000 Speaker 1: it down and trying to preserve it in another way 2244 02:24:46,440 --> 02:24:49,880 Speaker 1: to prevent what's happened in the past. I think it's 2245 02:24:49,920 --> 02:24:53,440 Speaker 1: important to look at a combination of both someone who 2246 02:24:53,520 --> 02:24:56,680 Speaker 1: has written a book manuscript as Steve no It's just 2247 02:24:56,760 --> 02:24:58,760 Speaker 1: got to be the hardest thing I've ever tried to 2248 02:24:58,800 --> 02:25:00,720 Speaker 1: do and one of the coolest because that opens up 2249 02:25:01,200 --> 02:25:06,440 Speaker 1: so many doors. But hopefully it's gonna be a combination 2250 02:25:06,520 --> 02:25:09,520 Speaker 1: of both that I can in this research and in 2251 02:25:09,640 --> 02:25:12,760 Speaker 1: these teachings that I can help others understand things that 2252 02:25:12,840 --> 02:25:16,000 Speaker 1: we've missed. Just the understanding that there's a reason why 2253 02:25:16,080 --> 02:25:21,160 Speaker 1: we forgot so many things, the impact of colonization, impact 2254 02:25:21,280 --> 02:25:26,200 Speaker 1: of being acculturated into the American society, and there's a 2255 02:25:26,320 --> 02:25:28,560 Speaker 1: ton of history there and federal policies and a lot 2256 02:25:28,600 --> 02:25:31,400 Speaker 1: of us really sad. But regardless of that, you can 2257 02:25:31,480 --> 02:25:35,040 Speaker 1: still own your own history. You can find the seeds 2258 02:25:35,280 --> 02:25:38,440 Speaker 1: that you your people once eight and you can find them. 2259 02:25:38,920 --> 02:25:42,480 Speaker 1: Um a quick nod to the land back topic. I 2260 02:25:42,560 --> 02:25:46,800 Speaker 1: know that's originally how I was thought of m and 2261 02:25:46,920 --> 02:25:50,160 Speaker 1: coming onto here. But one of the richest examples that 2262 02:25:50,280 --> 02:25:52,320 Speaker 1: I can say not to do with public lands. It 2263 02:25:52,400 --> 02:25:54,640 Speaker 1: has to do with private lands. And one of the 2264 02:25:54,680 --> 02:25:58,840 Speaker 1: best examples I can point to was the author Roger Welsh, 2265 02:25:59,120 --> 02:26:01,960 Speaker 1: who's a long time in front of the Pawnee, and 2266 02:26:02,320 --> 02:26:07,840 Speaker 1: in the process of the anniversary of Lewis and clark Um, 2267 02:26:08,680 --> 02:26:12,360 Speaker 1: he gave the Pawnee Nation some of his private land 2268 02:26:13,560 --> 02:26:18,320 Speaker 1: out near Carney, Nebraska and asked them properly what they 2269 02:26:18,360 --> 02:26:20,720 Speaker 1: wanted to do with it. It was a really powerful moment. 2270 02:26:21,280 --> 02:26:25,560 Speaker 1: They said two things. They're traditional bands of chief. One 2271 02:26:25,840 --> 02:26:28,520 Speaker 1: was we want to plant our corn, which they've done 2272 02:26:28,560 --> 02:26:31,240 Speaker 1: and it's an incredible project, alcoholic and what she's done 2273 02:26:31,240 --> 02:26:34,560 Speaker 1: there is amazing. And two they said they wanted to dance. 2274 02:26:35,480 --> 02:26:38,920 Speaker 1: But ultimately that goes back to the call to arms. Um, 2275 02:26:39,440 --> 02:26:41,880 Speaker 1: what can people do who are interested in this topic 2276 02:26:41,959 --> 02:26:45,240 Speaker 1: and want to learn more at the very least, wherever 2277 02:26:45,320 --> 02:26:50,320 Speaker 1: your family lands might be, UM, your provenance is important. 2278 02:26:50,440 --> 02:26:53,440 Speaker 1: Perhaps your family has been there since homesteaders, maybe they've 2279 02:26:53,440 --> 02:27:01,200 Speaker 1: been there for seven generations in clearing Ugal western Arkansas. 2280 02:27:02,280 --> 02:27:03,959 Speaker 1: But if you go and look, you're going to find 2281 02:27:04,000 --> 02:27:06,800 Speaker 1: a provenance so much deeper. And if you have it 2282 02:27:06,920 --> 02:27:10,160 Speaker 1: within your heart to find those people that used to 2283 02:27:10,280 --> 02:27:15,480 Speaker 1: live there welcome them back with open arms, then only 2284 02:27:15,720 --> 02:27:19,200 Speaker 1: incredible treasures can await you and any American who wants 2285 02:27:19,240 --> 02:27:22,280 Speaker 1: to explore the provenance of this land in history, and 2286 02:27:22,360 --> 02:27:24,840 Speaker 1: it's only going to help us get along better and 2287 02:27:25,000 --> 02:27:27,480 Speaker 1: to have a richer history of the lands that we share. 2288 02:27:29,440 --> 02:27:33,640 Speaker 1: How do people find you specifically, if they're curious about 2289 02:27:33,959 --> 02:27:36,440 Speaker 1: your book that you've worked on, if they're curious about 2290 02:27:36,520 --> 02:27:39,800 Speaker 1: Sacred Seeds, if it's other tribal members who want to 2291 02:27:39,840 --> 02:27:45,080 Speaker 1: connect with you and share notes, share seeds absolutely UM. 2292 02:27:45,320 --> 02:27:48,680 Speaker 1: Sacredcy dot Org is the website for the project, and 2293 02:27:48,760 --> 02:27:52,520 Speaker 1: that's really what I'm wanting to support doing podcasts like this. 2294 02:27:52,800 --> 02:27:56,440 Speaker 1: But you can find me on Instagram. Taylor Keene seven 2295 02:27:57,000 --> 02:27:59,520 Speaker 1: put up a lot of images of the corn and 2296 02:28:00,040 --> 02:28:06,440 Speaker 1: plan that right now, so Taylor Keene is a full 2297 02:28:06,520 --> 02:28:08,960 Speaker 1: time instructor at Creighton AM I saying that right, That's right, 2298 02:28:09,080 --> 02:28:13,760 Speaker 1: Creton University's College of Business also the Founder's Sacred Seeds. 2299 02:28:15,080 --> 02:28:17,920 Speaker 1: So if you want to find out more, I'm sure 2300 02:28:17,959 --> 02:28:21,040 Speaker 1: you can dig in and that route. Can you repeat 2301 02:28:21,040 --> 02:28:23,160 Speaker 1: your Instagram handle? Oh? Yeah, I hit us with that? 2302 02:28:23,360 --> 02:28:26,560 Speaker 1: Is it? Taylor Keene seven? Taylor Keene seven t A 2303 02:28:26,760 --> 02:28:29,680 Speaker 1: Y l O R K double e N the number seven. 2304 02:28:31,520 --> 02:28:33,440 Speaker 1: All right, man, thanks so much for joining us. You 2305 02:28:33,560 --> 02:28:37,760 Speaker 1: gotta clay. I've got one last thing here that I 2306 02:28:37,840 --> 02:28:45,080 Speaker 1: wanted to share, big old arrowhead. Oh look at that. 2307 02:28:46,640 --> 02:28:50,760 Speaker 1: This is an ancient type of war club, and it 2308 02:28:50,920 --> 02:28:54,080 Speaker 1: was adorned by a member of my tribe. Those are 2309 02:28:54,160 --> 02:28:57,440 Speaker 1: objects that are used during our war dance for younger 2310 02:28:57,560 --> 02:29:01,240 Speaker 1: men than myself. But I'm wanted to share that with you, Steve. 2311 02:29:01,959 --> 02:29:04,760 Speaker 1: Oh it's beautiful man. Thanks for inviting me on the show. 2312 02:29:05,840 --> 02:29:07,320 Speaker 1: Like we get to have that in our studio, you do. 2313 02:29:09,600 --> 02:29:14,120 Speaker 1: Was this war club made of wood? It was always 2314 02:29:14,360 --> 02:29:17,800 Speaker 1: made out of wood, like a barrel typically, But it's 2315 02:29:17,840 --> 02:29:20,320 Speaker 1: origins go back to a symbol of power in ancient 2316 02:29:20,400 --> 02:29:26,160 Speaker 1: Native America, the symbol of the mace. What kind of feathers. 2317 02:29:26,200 --> 02:29:28,560 Speaker 1: Are these all kinds of different things in there. There's 2318 02:29:28,640 --> 02:29:34,440 Speaker 1: some pheasants, there's some um southern birds that are in there, 2319 02:29:34,879 --> 02:29:39,000 Speaker 1: some pretty colorful ones. Those are cockatoos or I can 2320 02:29:39,160 --> 02:29:40,680 Speaker 1: straighten those out a little bit. I just sneak it 2321 02:29:40,720 --> 02:29:43,640 Speaker 1: into my bag there. But it's beautiful. Man, that's cool, 2322 02:29:44,400 --> 02:29:48,840 Speaker 1: very cool. Thank you. Because we're as our wall works around, 2323 02:29:48,879 --> 02:29:50,680 Speaker 1: we're gonna that's gonna we're gonna find a good spot 2324 02:29:50,720 --> 02:29:53,400 Speaker 1: for that one. So would this be o Maha or Cherokee? 2325 02:29:53,800 --> 02:29:56,720 Speaker 1: That would have been just probably goes back to the 2326 02:29:56,800 --> 02:29:59,680 Speaker 1: Mississippian period because that symbol of the mace of power. 2327 02:29:59,760 --> 02:30:01,480 Speaker 1: When we talk about it in the future, what what 2328 02:30:01,560 --> 02:30:03,400 Speaker 1: would we say? How would we describe this when a 2329 02:30:03,480 --> 02:30:07,120 Speaker 1: podcast guest goes, what's that? That's a war mace? A 2330 02:30:07,240 --> 02:30:15,879 Speaker 1: war mace from the the planes traditions, Oh Maha, O sage. 2331 02:30:15,920 --> 02:30:19,160 Speaker 1: All of us would have used those, but you wouldn't 2332 02:30:19,160 --> 02:30:20,720 Speaker 1: want to get punked on the head with that. Then, 2333 02:30:24,360 --> 02:30:27,600 Speaker 1: all right, Taylor Keen, thanks very much for joining us, man, 2334 02:30:27,680 --> 02:30:29,720 Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Thank you, 2335 02:30:29,879 --> 02:30:30,160 Speaker 1: thank you.