WEBVTT - Black, Queer, Creative: Justin Simien on Making It in Hollywood 0:00:13.600 --> 0:00:17.520 Welcome to PM mood, the no Talking Points, no Bullshit 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:21.200 podcast that takes you behind the curtain, off the red carpet, 0:00:21.239 --> 0:00:24.200 and to the front lines of progress with change makers 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:27.200 and innovators that are doing the work to shift our 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:33.960 culture and expand our social impact. I'm so excited to 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:40.440 welcome friend director all around absolute badass Justin Simeon to 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:44.559 PM mood. Justin Generally, when I run into you and 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:47.320 get to see you, whether it's on a panel, like 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:50.240 we got to hang out a little bit in Sundance, 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:52.599 which is my first time going to Sundance, So being 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:54.520 able to see you and chat with you there was 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:57.960 like cherry on top of the Sunday. But now we're 0:00:58.000 --> 0:01:00.280 living in the midst of a global pandemic. All my 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:04.280 conversations start differently, how are you doing and where are 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:08.679 you I'm doing fine, I'm in la in my house 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:13.839 sort of yep, you know, and during the lockdown, and 0:01:14.319 --> 0:01:18.080 I'm an introvert, so I have very complicated feelings about it. 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:21.920 One way, it's like kind of fantastic and it's all 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:24.280 the pressure is off on the other side, like, you 0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:28.800 know the world is really crazy and terrifying, and you know, 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:31.280 all you can really do is watch from inside. On 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:33.920 a couple of different occasions, when I was at Serious, 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:37.319 we had a conversation about black mental health, in particular 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:40.280 in Sundance. We talked a bit about it. On the 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:44.920 Telling Black Stories Being Black and Out in Hollywood panel discussion, 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:48.720 we talked about it. Are you having more conversations with friends, 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:52.600 with family, with folks about their mental health and mental 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:58.000 health now? Because crisis hotlines hauls are on the rise? Sadly, 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:02.400 domestic violence is twenty percent, which is a height. How 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:06.720 are you like having those conversations and also managing your 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:09.920 own mental health during this time? Yeah, it is sort 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:14.320 of how someone is doing in the pandemic mentally. It 0:02:14.360 --> 0:02:17.000 really is the thing that you know, I find myself 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:19.600 talking about more often than not. You know, it's interesting 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:22.440 because I was already especially coming out of Sundance and 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:23.720 sort of at the start of this year, I was 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:27.280 already in therapy. I already you know, was talking to 0:02:27.320 --> 0:02:30.440 a psychiatrist all those kinds of things, And really, I 0:02:30.480 --> 0:02:33.560 mean that's just continuing now that we're in now we're 0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:38.120 in lockdown. I do my therapy on zoom. But yeah, 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:41.000 I think it's a I think one where so everyone 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:44.680 is sort of being forced to be with themselves intimately 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:48.560 because we're all stuck inside. And I think it probably 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:52.040 is exacerbating all kinds of issues that were already there. 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:54.400 But there's a lot less distraction, and there's also a 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:57.400 lot of bad, genuinely bad news, you know. I mean, 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:00.840 this is a real situation. People are really getting sick 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:03.480 and dying, and you know, I think, I'm sure I'm 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:06.960 not breaking news by saying that the current administration is 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:10.040 handling it in a very terrifying manner that does not 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:12.480 make me feel safe for taking care of my government. 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:15.880 And so yeah, it's definitely top of mind, and I 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:19.120 think that, you know, for me, whatever, however somebody needs 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:21.400 to cope with it, I think they should be doing that. 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:24.480 And for some people that is, you know, being out there, 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:28.840 sort of connecting with people online, more giving structure to 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:31.400 the days, being more productive. For some of us that 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:34.200 may mean like I want to give myself a whole 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:37.120 day to stay in bed, and I think, however it 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:38.400 works for you, I think that's what you should do. 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:40.040 I don't think it should being a shame over what 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:42.240 someone's doing to cope, because this is just really a 0:03:42.400 --> 0:03:45.200 unique thing. I mean, we're living through one of those 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:48.960 big times and humanity where everything's different and no one's 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:52.320 encountered this before. This is you know, our World War 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:54.400 two in a lot of ways, you know, for a 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:57.800 lot of folks, there is if you're a content creator, 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:00.280 right if you're a creative like you know you are, 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:04.000 there seems to be a lot of memes floating around 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:06.360 that are saying you don't need to be your most 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:09.720 productive self right now. You don't need to write the 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:13.200 New York Times bestselling novel. You don't need to put 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:17.360 out your Oscar Worthy, you know, film and create right now. 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:20.200 Do you feel the pressure to be doing the most? 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:22.680 Or have you taken yourself out of that and you're 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:24.160 just like, you know what I'm gonna do, Like you 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:25.919 just said, I'm going to deal with this how I 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:27.760 need to deal with this. So if that means I'm 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:29.400 going to be in bed all day, then I'm going 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:31.400 to be in bed and I'm not judging myself. Or 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:34.680 do you still feel like the constant churn of like 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:37.479 that doing the most culture? It's like, how you know, 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:39.120 I keep seeing how are you going to come out 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:41.479 of this pandemic? You're gonna come out snatched? Are you 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:44.520 gonna come out? Yeah? And I'm like, what is happening? 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:47.160 I know, I do feel the pressure. I mean it's 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:50.120 everywhere you know where It's an extroverted industry that I 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:52.440 live in, I work in and live in. So you know, 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:57.320 people are launching businesses and business models right now out 0:04:57.360 --> 0:05:00.680 of the new American normal. And I mean, for me, 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:05.000 I definitely feel the pressure. But I just I can't. 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:08.080 I can't keep up with all that. I will tell 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:09.560 you right now, I will not come out of this 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:13.160 pandemic snatched. Okay. I will come out a little bier, 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:18.240 a little woolier, probably been arrested than I've been in years. 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:21.000 But you know, I think the one thing that kind 0:05:21.040 --> 0:05:22.920 of helps is that we are you know, we've still 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:25.840 been writing Season four, Dear White People, even though I 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:29.000 think production is sort of across the board, you know, 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:32.240 down right now, we're at least still able to keep 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:35.320 a writer's room, you know, virtually and keep the scripts going, 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:37.839 which has been helpful to just sort of get structure 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:39.640 to the day. But also, you know, they have an 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:42.680 outlet of some kind, to have a deadline, to have 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:45.160 something that sort of you know, gives the days in 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:47.320 the week some structure. But when we're done with that, 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:49.720 you know, I planned to I plan to stay in bed. 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:56.520 I don't know. I don't know. I can't quite. This 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:58.760 feels like the worst time for me to like pull 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:02.479 it together, I know, but it's like, it's just it's 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:05.920 crazy the amount of pressure that I feel, like to 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:09.120 pull my shit together every day. It's so bizarre because 0:06:09.160 --> 0:06:11.920 I really just do want to be in bed, and 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:14.039 it's like that everybody around me is just like, we'll 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:17.000 launch another podcast and do another thing, and I'm like, 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:20.840 what the fuck. I just want, you know, I want 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:26.080 to get high and like relax, but through my trauma. 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:29.200 I think that is an appropriate response to a global pandemic, 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:34.240 I really do. I think people underestimate just how traumatic 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:38.200 this experience isn't all of us, you know, there's something 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:42.080 happening in the world that you either have absolutely no 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:45.760 connection to because you or nobody you know is sick 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:49.440 in this particular way, or you have a devastating connection 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:52.760 to because you know, God forbid of somebody that you know, 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:55.360 or you are sick with this thing or have any 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:59.599 other kind of serious medical issue. Your life is very 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:03.200 very very very impacted by this crisis right now, and 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:05.120 it's just very I think most of us are in 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:07.599 this weird limbo of like, you know, we turn on 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:10.040 the TV or we scroll through the news and we 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:13.880 are inundated with horror, but you know, the actual day 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:16.520 to day moments of our lives are actually become very 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:20.200 mundane and you know, flat, and it's like, what, psychologically, 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:23.040 what do you do with that? And I think, you know, 0:07:23.120 --> 0:07:26.120 for some people, being extremely productive might help them work 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:28.760 through that trauma. But I don't know if that's the 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:31.120 key for everybody, And I don't think anyone should feel 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:32.960 like that's what you have to do. I think we 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:35.440 all have to recognize that this is traumatic in ways 0:07:35.520 --> 0:07:38.840 that you know, we could never have anticipated because we've 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:42.400 never lived through something before. Yeah, it's been a hundred 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:44.480 years since the last I was going to say. Even 0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:47.920 even the things that we may have read about fifteen 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:51.760 twenty years ago, whether we're in school, there was no 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:54.960 one around to really give a firsthand account of what 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:57.080 it felt like to live through the fucking Spanish flu 0:07:57.440 --> 0:07:59.520 or what it felt like to live through the Black Plate. 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:01.800 There's nobody being like, you know what, I remember like 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:03.760 we couldn't go to the horse store like there was 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:08.040 nothing nothing, there was nothing to say and be like 0:08:08.680 --> 0:08:11.800 the horse store, I couldn't get my bonnet done. You know, 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:14.800 I would think I learned how to sew during the 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:18.080 Spanish Flu, Like, no, we don't. We have no sense 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:20.360 memory of the Spanish Flu, of the Great Depression, of 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:22.600 any of that. And we also have a very you know, 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:25.280 I think in times like this, you really do, whether 0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:27.360 or not you like the president, you do look to 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:31.800 leadership for some sign of what's going to happen. And 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:34.000 I don't know about you, but whenever I've looked to 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:36.439 the leadership or like dared to watch one of these 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:41.120 press conferences, it's really it's scary. It is scary to 0:08:41.200 --> 0:08:45.440 see the level of incompetence on display and to know 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:48.520 that all of our lives and our income and you know, 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:51.920 the future of our species sort of rests on this 0:08:52.000 --> 0:08:54.600 group of people to do the right thing, and it 0:08:54.640 --> 0:08:56.440 doesn't really feel like they even know what they're talking 0:08:56.440 --> 0:09:00.319 about Trump in particular. It's terrifying, and there's no way 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:04.880 that doesn't get in and doesn't have an impact on 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:08.440 one's mental health or outlook community. Yes, which is why 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:11.640 I think that. You know, what I do remember through 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:16.839 reading about some of the most traumatic and tragic times 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:23.240 of the evolution of society is escapist, right, is what 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:27.160 people use to escape. And you know, in many ways 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:30.600 the birth of Hollywood and movies and film came from that, right, 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:33.760 people wanting to move outside of the traumas of what 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:37.480 was happening in World War Two and be able to escape. Right, 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:40.800 This was a genre of film. Now people are telling 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:43.800 us well, Quarantine and Chill. Right, so we've moved from 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:47.319 Netflix and Chill to Quarantine and Chill. Your series Dear 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:52.600 White People is sadly they're graduating. It's coming to a close, 0:09:52.960 --> 0:09:55.080 which means that I have to graduate with them. I 0:09:55.120 --> 0:10:00.520 don't want to. I want to be held back. But 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:04.679 people are digging into Netflix now more than ever. So 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:09.720 tell me about what folks can look to look towards 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:12.679 for the left. For the final installment, I should say 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:16.559 I'm distilling of Dear White People because it's been a journey. 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:19.600 Yes it has, and it's very difficult to end it, 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:22.040 you know, and I can't say too too much, but 0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:25.679 you know, I think that one we are we have 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:29.080 the hard task of landing the plane and figure out 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:32.880 what relationships to wrap up and how to wrap them up. 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:35.400 And I think it's interesting because the themes that we're 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:37.880 dealing with this season, I think are very much on 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:39.720 the minds of a lot of people during the pandemic. 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:41.560 But like you said, we don't want to sort of 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:46.040 make a pandemic season because we need to mentally escape 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:50.720 the pandemic. But this idea that we are, you know, 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:54.720 our human lives really come down to how productive we 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:59.760 are is sort of a symptom of capitalism, and particularly 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:03.160 for black folks or any kind of marginalized community, that 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:04.959 is such a double edged sword because we're sort of 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:07.720 taught to be productive and taught to sort of have 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:11.319 a market value that will sustain us, but we are 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:15.480 in other ways denied, you know, human dignities, and that 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:18.680 I think is I think that we can address that 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:20.960 in the season, as these kids are about to sort 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:24.200 of launch into the real world and you know, trade 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:30.199 their passions for careers and for specific ways to make 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:34.120 money and to have market value once they graduate. I 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:37.200 think that that theme is something that will really resonate 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:40.160 with where people are at an experiencing right now, because 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:43.120 you know, the show has always been about identity versus self. 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:46.960 It's always been about like, their true humanity versus the 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:50.400 demands of you know, the culture and the society on them, 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:53.640 and the tension between those things. I think part of 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:56.120 what is so dramatic about the pandemic is that everyone 0:11:56.200 --> 0:11:58.040 is feeling that. It's like, if I'm stuck at home 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:00.480 and I'm not being productive and I'm not earning money, 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:03.400 what am i? And who am I? Who am I? Exactly? 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:07.520 And that's exactly what you'd feel that senior year of college. 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:11.920 It's that post adolescent growing into oneself, right, Like the 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:15.319 world is supposedly your oyster and yet right now it's 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:19.240 actually fucking closed. And so how do you imagine who 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:22.320 you're going to be and what you're aspiring to do 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:26.200 with such uncertainty? Right? I think the beautiful thing about 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:28.400 Dear White People is that for those of us who 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:31.440 are very far gone from college, like, it allows you 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:34.040 to relive a lot of moments. And the moment that 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:36.840 allows you to relive is just like the birthing of yourself, 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:40.800 right and in all the ways that we evolve throughout 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:43.680 the different major moments of our life, and like kind 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:47.200 of college is one of those major capstones more so 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:50.120 than high school graduation in terms of how I look 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:54.080 at it. What for you you're going into season four, 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:57.640 but season three to me was huge in terms of 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:02.240 the character evolution and where people full like you're creating it, 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:05.120 But what was kind of a moment that you look 0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:08.440 back on now as you're finishing writing season four that 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:11.439 was like a highlight, like, oh shit, this character or 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:16.200 these characters or this storyline really you know, added flesh 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:19.280 and teeth to where this person was even from the 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:23.000 feature film to the first season. Well, I think Lionel 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:27.480 storyline last season in season three, meeting with the Deonte 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:30.720 character and sort of really getting because you know, Lionel 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:33.120 has been our eyes and ears to the queer experience 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:36.880 at Winchester, but Lionel himself, you know, part of what 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:39.600 his character is about is sort of learning to open 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:42.280 up to a new world that has always felt a 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:45.280 little bit bigger than him and intimidating. And so you know, 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:47.920 because he's our eyes nearest to the queer world at Winchester, 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:49.760 we haven't really been able to see a ton of 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:53.240 it because he is very early in that evolution and 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:56.720 when he meets Deonte, and Deonte kind of you know, 0:13:56.880 --> 0:13:59.640 opens them up to this whole other group of people 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:03.560 and experiences. You know, for me, that was really gratifying 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:08.480 because as a queer writer filmmaker, I certainly identify with 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:11.520 where Lionel was and is in the story of Dear 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:14.800 White People, But I was eager to show, you know, 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:18.200 the world beyond that that sort of like beginner kind 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:21.680 of initiation that Lionel was going through, and you know, 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:25.200 to get more of that experience into the overall storytelling 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:27.400 of Dear White People was very gratifying. I mean, all 0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:29.440 of the characters haven't come such a long way since 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:32.360 the movie, but you know, I think Lionel really was 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:34.800 on an island in the movie. He you know, he was, 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:37.680 he wasn't really friends with any of the people yet, 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:40.960 and so now he is. He is fully embedded within 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:44.040 this community. He has a place within these people, and 0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:47.240 I think, you know, for queer people of color trying 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:51.000 to find our place within the larger community of color. 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:53.800 You know that that's a big story for me personally, 0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:56.000 and it's one of you know, many things about that 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:59.560 season that I found so exciting and so exhilarating because 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:02.720 we Season three really was about like the nature of 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:07.360 growth and how unexpected and spontaneous it can feel, and 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:10.160 how it can happen, and how overwhelming it can be. 0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:12.960 But there's also a lot of new possibilities that come 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:15.280 from from that experience. You know. It's like when we 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:17.840 dare to grow outside of what we think of ourselves, 0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:22.080 it's very frightening, but it's also very hopeful and exciting, 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:23.680 and I just have a lot of fun trying to 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:26.520 capture that spirit. One of the other characters that I 0:15:26.560 --> 0:15:30.200 felt like really took us, took me, and I think 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:33.960 audiences just in general on a journey was Reggie. Yeah, 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:37.680 you know, like he I mean, he was a heart 0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:41.400 and then my heart broke for watching, you know, him 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:47.240 being the character that went through a traumatic experience being 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:51.520 at gunpoint by a police officer, and you know him 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:54.800 being you know, it started out as like this revolutionary right, 0:15:54.880 --> 0:15:57.040 like we're going to be fighting the man and then 0:15:57.120 --> 0:16:00.960 coming face to face with what that means, and then 0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:05.160 rappling with the trauma of the confrontation of what it 0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:08.000 means to be hunted by police, what it means to 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:10.880 be seen as a target, as this violent offender tell 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:15.000 me about that story because we got to see, honestly, 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:19.120 not just the he didn't become a hashtag right, right, 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:23.440 So we actually get to see the traumatic impact of 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:28.040 that confrontation with the campus police and being at gunpoint 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:30.880 and how you're supposed to the right way or not, 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:33.760 how you move through that. Yeah, I mean, we really 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:36.160 wanted to get into the humanity of it is sort 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:39.120 of beyond the kind of issue based sort of storytelling 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:41.160 that you kind of find and other shows about this 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:43.760 sort of topic where it's like it happens one week 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:46.680 and then the characters move on, or a character has 0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:49.000 tragically died, or you know, it's sort of like a 0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:53.160 one time thing. You know. When we have these experiences 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:55.600 in the world, they live in us for the rest 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:59.360 of our lives. And I think the Reggie's life after 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:02.480 the experience with the campus police and how he is 0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:06.280 dealing with that trauma, to me, was the most interesting 0:17:06.359 --> 0:17:09.679 and helpful part about his journey. And I think, you know, 0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:13.160 for Reggie, to me, Reggie really is the heart of 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:16.160 the show. He has our gut, you know what I mean, Like, 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:20.239 you know, Sam and Lionel fight over our intellect, and 0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:22.600 the Coco has the one liners, and she gives us 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:25.200 some of our spirit, But Reggie is our heart, you know. 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:28.840 And I'm very invested in showing, you know, what it 0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:32.680 looks like to become the man that you project yourself 0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:34.520 to be at the beginning of a journey like this, 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:37.680 and then when you encounter hardships and you realize how 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:39.880 difficult and traumatic it is to sort of live up 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:42.800 to your own sort of way you see yourself. I'm 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:46.760 very invested in showing Reggie doing that successfully and showing 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:49.320 us how to do it. And you know, I think 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:51.840 we give him a lot of obstacles to overcome because 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:54.040 those are the ones we're overcoming ourselves. Like you know, 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:57.080 in season three, he sort of finds a savior figure 0:17:57.280 --> 0:18:00.639 in Blair Underwood, and I think we all certainly that 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:03.600 the especially when we were making that season, I certainly 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:07.040 was grappling with, you know, what do you do when 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:12.200 these heroes in your head have helped you overcome time 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:15.280 and time again all of the negative thinking that society 0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:18.399 has sort of put on me when those heroes themselves 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:23.760 are found wanting or divisive or dangerous or you know, 0:18:23.920 --> 0:18:26.000 we were losing the heroes left and right, and certainly 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:28.960 with the Me Too movement, you know, I think necessarily so, 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:32.560 but still like for black people, these aren't just entertainers 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:35.240 or interesting people. These are the people who made us 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:37.560 feel like we could do anything. And these are people 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:38.840 who made us feel like we could get out of 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:41.240 bed at the boarding and make us feel like we're worthy. 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:43.600 What do we do when those people let us down? 0:18:43.760 --> 0:18:46.680 How do we find those resources in ourselves? I think 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:49.440 that's really the journey of Reggie. And you know, in 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:52.399 that way, he sort of you know, for me, he 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:55.399 represents where my heart has been at each year that 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:58.720 we've made the show. Whatever's happening with Reggie, like that 0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:03.760 is saying something about me emotionally. It's a sort of 0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:08.800 like sneak peek into my into my inner psyche, as 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:12.080 it were. Yeah, yeah, the way that you have just 0:19:12.320 --> 0:19:17.320 developed these characters, how you know connected people have become 0:19:17.359 --> 0:19:19.919 to them. Does it surprise you the way that people 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:23.720 have connected so much to deer white people? And I 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:26.360 know that you said like I can't imagine what it's 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:29.920 like to land the plane on a journey like this. 0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:33.160 How do you do that? I guess is really the question, 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:36.000 like is it a gut feeling that you were like, 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:38.280 we have to wrap this up, or I know how 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:40.120 to wrap this up, or I feel like it's time 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:42.000 to wrap it up. You know, the thing about this 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:44.520 era of TV is that we never knew at the 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:46.800 end of each season if we were coming back or 0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:48.760 for how long we were coming back, and so I 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:50.919 never really had the luxury of being able to plot 0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:54.399 out like what the show was going to definitively be. 0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:58.040 But I certainly, you know, I've always known for me anyway, 0:19:58.040 --> 0:20:00.480 with the show is really at its core about and 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:03.359 this season, I'm doing what I always do. I'm bringing 0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:06.480 my whole heart into the process, the things that I'm 0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:09.320 struggling with, the things that I'm excited about, the things 0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:11.720 that I'm obsessed with, and I'm having all of my 0:20:11.760 --> 0:20:14.720 writers do the same. And you know, we all love 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:19.240 these characters and so we want to respectfully bring their 0:20:19.280 --> 0:20:22.720 storylines to a conclusion that feels honest and real. But 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:25.680 we also are just dealing with our shit in our art. 0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:28.480 I mean, that's really what Dear White People is on 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:30.400 this side of it. You know, On one hand, I'm 0:20:30.400 --> 0:20:32.440 not surprised that people connect to it, because I know, 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:34.680 I mean, we really put our foot in the show. 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:37.199 Like it is not like we're not just doing some bs, 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:40.439 like we are really actively thinking about all the choices 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:42.919 are going to the show. We're trying to like dig 0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:45.400 really deep every season to put the things that are 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:48.040 really on our hearts in the show. And so, you know, 0:20:48.080 --> 0:20:50.080 I think it's natural that people will connect to it 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:52.000 if you know the creative team is doing that on 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:54.320 a consistent basis. But on the other end, you know, 0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:56.880 I don't expect that ever, So you know, I have 0:20:57.080 --> 0:21:02.040 terrible self estates, so you know, I'm always a little 0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:05.240 surprised where people like the things I do, which again 0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:08.040 I am in therapy and we are working. We are 0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:11.240 working on that. We are we are all a work 0:21:11.240 --> 0:21:16.560 in progress. Listen, actively working on it. What does it 0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:20.960 feel like to you to create these days? As you're 0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:24.399 no longer a newbie right like, you have been in 0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:27.840 this game now for quite some time. You have had 0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:31.320 a lot of success. And again I say that to you. 0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:34.760 You may you may challenge yourself in other ways, but 0:21:34.920 --> 0:21:37.920 from the outside, I will say you've had tremendous success. 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:40.919