Speaker 1: Welcome to PM mood, the no Talking Points, no Bullshit
Speaker 1: podcast that takes you behind the curtain, off the red carpet,
Speaker 1: and to the front lines of progress with change makers
Speaker 1: and innovators that are doing the work to shift our
Speaker 1: culture and expand our social impact. I'm so excited to
Speaker 1: welcome friend director all around absolute badass Justin Simeon to
Speaker 1: PM mood. Justin Generally, when I run into you and
Speaker 1: get to see you, whether it's on a panel, like
Speaker 1: we got to hang out a little bit in Sundance,
Speaker 1: which is my first time going to Sundance, So being
Speaker 1: able to see you and chat with you there was
Speaker 1: like cherry on top of the Sunday. But now we're
Speaker 1: living in the midst of a global pandemic. All my
Speaker 1: conversations start differently, how are you doing and where are
Speaker 1: you I'm doing fine, I'm in la in my house
Speaker 1: sort of yep, you know, and during the lockdown, and
Speaker 1: I'm an introvert, so I have very complicated feelings about it.
Speaker 1: One way, it's like kind of fantastic and it's all
Speaker 1: the pressure is off on the other side, like, you
Speaker 1: know the world is really crazy and terrifying, and you know,
Speaker 1: all you can really do is watch from inside. On
Speaker 1: a couple of different occasions, when I was at Serious,
Speaker 1: we had a conversation about black mental health, in particular
Speaker 1: in Sundance. We talked a bit about it. On the
Speaker 1: Telling Black Stories Being Black and Out in Hollywood panel discussion,
Speaker 1: we talked about it. Are you having more conversations with friends,
Speaker 1: with family, with folks about their mental health and mental
Speaker 1: health now? Because crisis hotlines hauls are on the rise? Sadly,
Speaker 1: domestic violence is twenty percent, which is a height. How
Speaker 1: are you like having those conversations and also managing your
Speaker 1: own mental health during this time? Yeah, it is sort
Speaker 1: of how someone is doing in the pandemic mentally. It
Speaker 1: really is the thing that you know, I find myself
Speaker 1: talking about more often than not. You know, it's interesting
Speaker 1: because I was already especially coming out of Sundance and
Speaker 1: sort of at the start of this year, I was
Speaker 1: already in therapy. I already you know, was talking to
Speaker 1: a psychiatrist all those kinds of things, And really, I
Speaker 1: mean that's just continuing now that we're in now we're
Speaker 1: in lockdown. I do my therapy on zoom. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it's a I think one where so everyone
Speaker 1: is sort of being forced to be with themselves intimately
Speaker 1: because we're all stuck inside. And I think it probably
Speaker 1: is exacerbating all kinds of issues that were already there.
Speaker 1: But there's a lot less distraction, and there's also a
Speaker 1: lot of bad, genuinely bad news, you know. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is a real situation. People are really getting sick
Speaker 1: and dying, and you know, I think, I'm sure I'm
Speaker 1: not breaking news by saying that the current administration is
Speaker 1: handling it in a very terrifying manner that does not
Speaker 1: make me feel safe for taking care of my government.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, it's definitely top of mind, and I
Speaker 1: think that, you know, for me, whatever, however somebody needs
Speaker 1: to cope with it, I think they should be doing that.
Speaker 1: And for some people that is, you know, being out there,
Speaker 1: sort of connecting with people online, more giving structure to
Speaker 1: the days, being more productive. For some of us that
Speaker 1: may mean like I want to give myself a whole
Speaker 1: day to stay in bed, and I think, however it
Speaker 1: works for you, I think that's what you should do.
Speaker 1: I don't think it should being a shame over what
Speaker 1: someone's doing to cope, because this is just really a
Speaker 1: unique thing. I mean, we're living through one of those
Speaker 1: big times and humanity where everything's different and no one's
Speaker 1: encountered this before. This is you know, our World War
Speaker 1: two in a lot of ways, you know, for a
Speaker 1: lot of folks, there is if you're a content creator,
Speaker 1: right if you're a creative like you know you are,
Speaker 1: there seems to be a lot of memes floating around
Speaker 1: that are saying you don't need to be your most
Speaker 1: productive self right now. You don't need to write the
Speaker 1: New York Times bestselling novel. You don't need to put
Speaker 1: out your Oscar Worthy, you know, film and create right now.
Speaker 1: Do you feel the pressure to be doing the most?
Speaker 1: Or have you taken yourself out of that and you're
Speaker 1: just like, you know what I'm gonna do, Like you
Speaker 1: just said, I'm going to deal with this how I
Speaker 1: need to deal with this. So if that means I'm
Speaker 1: going to be in bed all day, then I'm going
Speaker 1: to be in bed and I'm not judging myself. Or
Speaker 1: do you still feel like the constant churn of like
Speaker 1: that doing the most culture? It's like, how you know,
Speaker 1: I keep seeing how are you going to come out
Speaker 1: of this pandemic? You're gonna come out snatched? Are you
Speaker 1: gonna come out? Yeah? And I'm like, what is happening?
Speaker 1: I know, I do feel the pressure. I mean it's
Speaker 1: everywhere you know where It's an extroverted industry that I
Speaker 1: live in, I work in and live in. So you know,
Speaker 1: people are launching businesses and business models right now out
Speaker 1: of the new American normal. And I mean, for me,
Speaker 1: I definitely feel the pressure. But I just I can't.
Speaker 1: I can't keep up with all that. I will tell
Speaker 1: you right now, I will not come out of this
Speaker 1: pandemic snatched. Okay. I will come out a little bier,
Speaker 1: a little woolier, probably been arrested than I've been in years.
Speaker 1: But you know, I think the one thing that kind
Speaker 1: of helps is that we are you know, we've still
Speaker 1: been writing Season four, Dear White People, even though I
Speaker 1: think production is sort of across the board, you know,
Speaker 1: down right now, we're at least still able to keep
Speaker 1: a writer's room, you know, virtually and keep the scripts going,
Speaker 1: which has been helpful to just sort of get structure
Speaker 1: to the day. But also, you know, they have an
Speaker 1: outlet of some kind, to have a deadline, to have
Speaker 1: something that sort of you know, gives the days in
Speaker 1: the week some structure. But when we're done with that,
Speaker 1: you know, I planned to I plan to stay in bed.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. I can't quite. This
Speaker 1: feels like the worst time for me to like pull
Speaker 1: it together, I know, but it's like, it's just it's
Speaker 1: crazy the amount of pressure that I feel, like to
Speaker 1: pull my shit together every day. It's so bizarre because
Speaker 1: I really just do want to be in bed, and
Speaker 1: it's like that everybody around me is just like, we'll
Speaker 1: launch another podcast and do another thing, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: what the fuck. I just want, you know, I want
Speaker 1: to get high and like relax, but through my trauma.
Speaker 1: I think that is an appropriate response to a global pandemic,
Speaker 1: I really do. I think people underestimate just how traumatic
Speaker 1: this experience isn't all of us, you know, there's something
Speaker 1: happening in the world that you either have absolutely no
Speaker 1: connection to because you or nobody you know is sick
Speaker 1: in this particular way, or you have a devastating connection
Speaker 1: to because you know, God forbid of somebody that you know,
Speaker 1: or you are sick with this thing or have any
Speaker 1: other kind of serious medical issue. Your life is very
Speaker 1: very very very impacted by this crisis right now, and
Speaker 1: it's just very I think most of us are in
Speaker 1: this weird limbo of like, you know, we turn on
Speaker 1: the TV or we scroll through the news and we
Speaker 1: are inundated with horror, but you know, the actual day
Speaker 1: to day moments of our lives are actually become very
Speaker 1: mundane and you know, flat, and it's like, what, psychologically,
Speaker 1: what do you do with that? And I think, you know,
Speaker 1: for some people, being extremely productive might help them work
Speaker 1: through that trauma. But I don't know if that's the
Speaker 1: key for everybody, And I don't think anyone should feel
Speaker 1: like that's what you have to do. I think we
Speaker 1: all have to recognize that this is traumatic in ways
Speaker 1: that you know, we could never have anticipated because we've
Speaker 1: never lived through something before. Yeah, it's been a hundred
Speaker 1: years since the last I was going to say. Even
Speaker 1: even the things that we may have read about fifteen
Speaker 1: twenty years ago, whether we're in school, there was no
Speaker 1: one around to really give a firsthand account of what
Speaker 1: it felt like to live through the fucking Spanish flu
Speaker 1: or what it felt like to live through the Black Plate.
Speaker 1: There's nobody being like, you know what, I remember like
Speaker 1: we couldn't go to the horse store like there was
Speaker 1: nothing nothing, there was nothing to say and be like
Speaker 1: the horse store, I couldn't get my bonnet done. You know,
Speaker 1: I would think I learned how to sew during the
Speaker 1: Spanish Flu, Like, no, we don't. We have no sense
Speaker 1: memory of the Spanish Flu, of the Great Depression, of
Speaker 1: any of that. And we also have a very you know,
Speaker 1: I think in times like this, you really do, whether
Speaker 1: or not you like the president, you do look to
Speaker 1: leadership for some sign of what's going to happen. And
Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but whenever I've looked to
Speaker 1: the leadership or like dared to watch one of these
Speaker 1: press conferences, it's really it's scary. It is scary to
Speaker 1: see the level of incompetence on display and to know
Speaker 1: that all of our lives and our income and you know,
Speaker 1: the future of our species sort of rests on this
Speaker 1: group of people to do the right thing, and it
Speaker 1: doesn't really feel like they even know what they're talking
Speaker 1: about Trump in particular. It's terrifying, and there's no way
Speaker 1: that doesn't get in and doesn't have an impact on
Speaker 1: one's mental health or outlook community. Yes, which is why
Speaker 1: I think that. You know, what I do remember through
Speaker 1: reading about some of the most traumatic and tragic times
Speaker 1: of the evolution of society is escapist, right, is what
Speaker 1: people use to escape. And you know, in many ways
Speaker 1: the birth of Hollywood and movies and film came from that, right,
Speaker 1: people wanting to move outside of the traumas of what
Speaker 1: was happening in World War Two and be able to escape. Right,
Speaker 1: This was a genre of film. Now people are telling
Speaker 1: us well, Quarantine and Chill. Right, so we've moved from
Speaker 1: Netflix and Chill to Quarantine and Chill. Your series Dear
Speaker 1: White People is sadly they're graduating. It's coming to a close,
Speaker 1: which means that I have to graduate with them. I
Speaker 1: don't want to. I want to be held back. But
Speaker 1: people are digging into Netflix now more than ever. So
Speaker 1: tell me about what folks can look to look towards
Speaker 1: for the left. For the final installment, I should say
Speaker 1: I'm distilling of Dear White People because it's been a journey.
Speaker 1: Yes it has, and it's very difficult to end it,
Speaker 1: you know, and I can't say too too much, but
Speaker 1: you know, I think that one we are we have
Speaker 1: the hard task of landing the plane and figure out
Speaker 1: what relationships to wrap up and how to wrap them up.
Speaker 1: And I think it's interesting because the themes that we're
Speaker 1: dealing with this season, I think are very much on
Speaker 1: the minds of a lot of people during the pandemic.
Speaker 1: But like you said, we don't want to sort of
Speaker 1: make a pandemic season because we need to mentally escape
Speaker 1: the pandemic. But this idea that we are, you know,
Speaker 1: our human lives really come down to how productive we
Speaker 1: are is sort of a symptom of capitalism, and particularly
Speaker 1: for black folks or any kind of marginalized community, that
Speaker 1: is such a double edged sword because we're sort of
Speaker 1: taught to be productive and taught to sort of have
Speaker 1: a market value that will sustain us, but we are
Speaker 1: in other ways denied, you know, human dignities, and that
Speaker 1: I think is I think that we can address that
Speaker 1: in the season, as these kids are about to sort
Speaker 1: of launch into the real world and you know, trade
Speaker 1: their passions for careers and for specific ways to make
Speaker 1: money and to have market value once they graduate. I
Speaker 1: think that that theme is something that will really resonate
Speaker 1: with where people are at an experiencing right now, because
Speaker 1: you know, the show has always been about identity versus self.
Speaker 1: It's always been about like, their true humanity versus the
Speaker 1: demands of you know, the culture and the society on them,
Speaker 1: and the tension between those things. I think part of
Speaker 1: what is so dramatic about the pandemic is that everyone
Speaker 1: is feeling that. It's like, if I'm stuck at home
Speaker 1: and I'm not being productive and I'm not earning money,
Speaker 1: what am i? And who am I? Who am I? Exactly?
Speaker 1: And that's exactly what you'd feel that senior year of college.
Speaker 1: It's that post adolescent growing into oneself, right, Like the
Speaker 1: world is supposedly your oyster and yet right now it's
Speaker 1: actually fucking closed. And so how do you imagine who
Speaker 1: you're going to be and what you're aspiring to do
Speaker 1: with such uncertainty? Right? I think the beautiful thing about
Speaker 1: Dear White People is that for those of us who
Speaker 1: are very far gone from college, like, it allows you
Speaker 1: to relive a lot of moments. And the moment that
Speaker 1: allows you to relive is just like the birthing of yourself,
Speaker 1: right and in all the ways that we evolve throughout
Speaker 1: the different major moments of our life, and like kind
Speaker 1: of college is one of those major capstones more so
Speaker 1: than high school graduation in terms of how I look
Speaker 1: at it. What for you you're going into season four,
Speaker 1: but season three to me was huge in terms of
Speaker 1: the character evolution and where people full like you're creating it,
Speaker 1: But what was kind of a moment that you look
Speaker 1: back on now as you're finishing writing season four that
Speaker 1: was like a highlight, like, oh shit, this character or
Speaker 1: these characters or this storyline really you know, added flesh
Speaker 1: and teeth to where this person was even from the
Speaker 1: feature film to the first season. Well, I think Lionel
Speaker 1: storyline last season in season three, meeting with the Deonte
Speaker 1: character and sort of really getting because you know, Lionel
Speaker 1: has been our eyes and ears to the queer experience
Speaker 1: at Winchester, but Lionel himself, you know, part of what
Speaker 1: his character is about is sort of learning to open
Speaker 1: up to a new world that has always felt a
Speaker 1: little bit bigger than him and intimidating. And so you know,
Speaker 1: because he's our eyes nearest to the queer world at Winchester,
Speaker 1: we haven't really been able to see a ton of
Speaker 1: it because he is very early in that evolution and
Speaker 1: when he meets Deonte, and Deonte kind of you know,
Speaker 1: opens them up to this whole other group of people
Speaker 1: and experiences. You know, for me, that was really gratifying
Speaker 1: because as a queer writer filmmaker, I certainly identify with
Speaker 1: where Lionel was and is in the story of Dear
Speaker 1: White People, But I was eager to show, you know,
Speaker 1: the world beyond that that sort of like beginner kind
Speaker 1: of initiation that Lionel was going through, and you know,
Speaker 1: to get more of that experience into the overall storytelling
Speaker 1: of Dear White People was very gratifying. I mean, all
Speaker 1: of the characters haven't come such a long way since
Speaker 1: the movie, but you know, I think Lionel really was
Speaker 1: on an island in the movie. He you know, he was,
Speaker 1: he wasn't really friends with any of the people yet,
Speaker 1: and so now he is. He is fully embedded within
Speaker 1: this community. He has a place within these people, and
Speaker 1: I think, you know, for queer people of color trying
Speaker 1: to find our place within the larger community of color.
Speaker 1: You know that that's a big story for me personally,
Speaker 1: and it's one of you know, many things about that
Speaker 1: season that I found so exciting and so exhilarating because
Speaker 1: we Season three really was about like the nature of
Speaker 1: growth and how unexpected and spontaneous it can feel, and
Speaker 1: how it can happen, and how overwhelming it can be.
Speaker 1: But there's also a lot of new possibilities that come
Speaker 1: from from that experience. You know. It's like when we
Speaker 1: dare to grow outside of what we think of ourselves,
Speaker 1: it's very frightening, but it's also very hopeful and exciting,
Speaker 1: and I just have a lot of fun trying to
Speaker 1: capture that spirit. One of the other characters that I
Speaker 1: felt like really took us, took me, and I think
Speaker 1: audiences just in general on a journey was Reggie. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, like he I mean, he was a heart
Speaker 1: and then my heart broke for watching, you know, him
Speaker 1: being the character that went through a traumatic experience being
Speaker 1: at gunpoint by a police officer, and you know him
Speaker 1: being you know, it started out as like this revolutionary right,
Speaker 1: like we're going to be fighting the man and then
Speaker 1: coming face to face with what that means, and then
Speaker 1: rappling with the trauma of the confrontation of what it
Speaker 1: means to be hunted by police, what it means to
Speaker 1: be seen as a target, as this violent offender tell
Speaker 1: me about that story because we got to see, honestly,
Speaker 1: not just the he didn't become a hashtag right, right,
Speaker 1: So we actually get to see the traumatic impact of
Speaker 1: that confrontation with the campus police and being at gunpoint
Speaker 1: and how you're supposed to the right way or not,
Speaker 1: how you move through that. Yeah, I mean, we really
Speaker 1: wanted to get into the humanity of it is sort
Speaker 1: of beyond the kind of issue based sort of storytelling
Speaker 1: that you kind of find and other shows about this
Speaker 1: sort of topic where it's like it happens one week
Speaker 1: and then the characters move on, or a character has
Speaker 1: tragically died, or you know, it's sort of like a
Speaker 1: one time thing. You know. When we have these experiences
Speaker 1: in the world, they live in us for the rest
Speaker 1: of our lives. And I think the Reggie's life after
Speaker 1: the experience with the campus police and how he is
Speaker 1: dealing with that trauma, to me, was the most interesting
Speaker 1: and helpful part about his journey. And I think, you know,
Speaker 1: for Reggie, to me, Reggie really is the heart of
Speaker 1: the show. He has our gut, you know what I mean, Like,
Speaker 1: you know, Sam and Lionel fight over our intellect, and
Speaker 1: the Coco has the one liners, and she gives us
Speaker 1: some of our spirit, But Reggie is our heart, you know.
Speaker 1: And I'm very invested in showing, you know, what it
Speaker 1: looks like to become the man that you project yourself
Speaker 1: to be at the beginning of a journey like this,
Speaker 1: and then when you encounter hardships and you realize how
Speaker 1: difficult and traumatic it is to sort of live up
Speaker 1: to your own sort of way you see yourself. I'm
Speaker 1: very invested in showing Reggie doing that successfully and showing
Speaker 1: us how to do it. And you know, I think
Speaker 1: we give him a lot of obstacles to overcome because
Speaker 1: those are the ones we're overcoming ourselves. Like you know,
Speaker 1: in season three, he sort of finds a savior figure
Speaker 1: in Blair Underwood, and I think we all certainly that
Speaker 1: the especially when we were making that season, I certainly
Speaker 1: was grappling with, you know, what do you do when
Speaker 1: these heroes in your head have helped you overcome time
Speaker 1: and time again all of the negative thinking that society
Speaker 1: has sort of put on me when those heroes themselves
Speaker 1: are found wanting or divisive or dangerous or you know,
Speaker 1: we were losing the heroes left and right, and certainly
Speaker 1: with the Me Too movement, you know, I think necessarily so,
Speaker 1: but still like for black people, these aren't just entertainers
Speaker 1: or interesting people. These are the people who made us
Speaker 1: feel like we could do anything. And these are people
Speaker 1: who made us feel like we could get out of
Speaker 1: bed at the boarding and make us feel like we're worthy.
Speaker 1: What do we do when those people let us down?
Speaker 1: How do we find those resources in ourselves? I think
Speaker 1: that's really the journey of Reggie. And you know, in
Speaker 1: that way, he sort of you know, for me, he
Speaker 1: represents where my heart has been at each year that
Speaker 1: we've made the show. Whatever's happening with Reggie, like that
Speaker 1: is saying something about me emotionally. It's a sort of
Speaker 1: like sneak peek into my into my inner psyche, as
Speaker 1: it were. Yeah, yeah, the way that you have just
Speaker 1: developed these characters, how you know connected people have become
Speaker 1: to them. Does it surprise you the way that people
Speaker 1: have connected so much to deer white people? And I
Speaker 1: know that you said like I can't imagine what it's
Speaker 1: like to land the plane on a journey like this.
Speaker 1: How do you do that? I guess is really the question,
Speaker 1: like is it a gut feeling that you were like,
Speaker 1: we have to wrap this up, or I know how
Speaker 1: to wrap this up, or I feel like it's time
Speaker 1: to wrap it up. You know, the thing about this
Speaker 1: era of TV is that we never knew at the
Speaker 1: end of each season if we were coming back or
Speaker 1: for how long we were coming back, and so I
Speaker 1: never really had the luxury of being able to plot
Speaker 1: out like what the show was going to definitively be.
Speaker 1: But I certainly, you know, I've always known for me anyway,
Speaker 1: with the show is really at its core about and
Speaker 1: this season, I'm doing what I always do. I'm bringing
Speaker 1: my whole heart into the process, the things that I'm
Speaker 1: struggling with, the things that I'm excited about, the things
Speaker 1: that I'm obsessed with, and I'm having all of my
Speaker 1: writers do the same. And you know, we all love
Speaker 1: these characters and so we want to respectfully bring their
Speaker 1: storylines to a conclusion that feels honest and real. But
Speaker 1: we also are just dealing with our shit in our art.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's really what Dear White People is on
Speaker 1: this side of it. You know, On one hand, I'm
Speaker 1: not surprised that people connect to it, because I know,
Speaker 1: I mean, we really put our foot in the show.
Speaker 1: Like it is not like we're not just doing some bs,
Speaker 1: like we are really actively thinking about all the choices
Speaker 1: are going to the show. We're trying to like dig
Speaker 1: really deep every season to put the things that are
Speaker 1: really on our hearts in the show. And so, you know,
Speaker 1: I think it's natural that people will connect to it
Speaker 1: if you know the creative team is doing that on
Speaker 1: a consistent basis. But on the other end, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't expect that ever, So you know, I have
Speaker 1: terrible self estates, so you know, I'm always a little
Speaker 1: surprised where people like the things I do, which again
Speaker 1: I am in therapy and we are working. We are
Speaker 1: working on that. We are we are all a work
Speaker 1: in progress. Listen, actively working on it. What does it
Speaker 1: feel like to you to create these days? As you're
Speaker 1: no longer a newbie right like, you have been in
Speaker 1: this game now for quite some time. You have had
Speaker 1: a lot of success. And again I say that to you.
Speaker 1: You may you may challenge yourself in other ways, but
Speaker 1: from the outside, I will say you've had tremendous success.
Speaker 1: What does it mean to be a black queer creative
Speaker 1: right now? For you in Hollywood it's a battle. It's
Speaker 1: a battle. I am very grateful that I've had success
Speaker 1: in that I get paid to do what I love
Speaker 1: to do. But you know, all of the sort of
Speaker 1: insecurities and this is not like a woe was Me situation,
Speaker 1: but like you know, growing up queer in black is
Speaker 1: not easy, period. It is not easy. And just to
Speaker 1: get into the industry, you have to fight so hard
Speaker 1: to get people to see you and to get people
Speaker 1: to think of your stories as important as the other
Speaker 1: stories that are dominating the culture. And once you get
Speaker 1: in there, that drive doesn't really turn off that sort
Speaker 1: of feeling that you know, people aren't getting it, or
Speaker 1: they aren't seeing you, or you know, the difficulties of
Speaker 1: making things for me versus you know, I'm looking at
Speaker 1: my sort of white, straight counterparts. It's so evident all
Speaker 1: the time that it's a little hard to sort of
Speaker 1: not see some of the challenges that are in your way.
Speaker 1: Even with success. And I think there is greater pressure
Speaker 1: because especially you know, our folks, because we have so little,
Speaker 1: we have so few pieces of content. When we do
Speaker 1: get things, you know, we're very critical. And I think
Speaker 1: that that's great. I think that's important, But there's a
Speaker 1: lot of pressure to sort of tell everybody's story, but
Speaker 1: tell your own and be truthful, and also form to
Speaker 1: the marketplace just so you can have funding to do it.
Speaker 1: That's a lot of things to juggle, and you know,
Speaker 1: certainly the voices in my head that tell me I'm
Speaker 1: not good enough, or I don't really belong here, or
Speaker 1: I'm an imposter, all those voices are very much with me,
Speaker 1: you know, as I do this work. You know, I'm
Speaker 1: no different than anyone else who is dreaming to be
Speaker 1: in this spot. You know, I'm still once you get there,
Speaker 1: you're still the same. Your brain is still put together
Speaker 1: the same way. You know. For me, it's really just
Speaker 1: about like not letting success become a burden or become
Speaker 1: a pressure point, or become, you know, sort of this
Speaker 1: obstacle that can never be overcome, and to just try
Speaker 1: to work for my most authentic self as much as
Speaker 1: I can. And I think what I have to make
Speaker 1: peace with is that, like I'm an artist that likes
Speaker 1: to challenge. I like making things that challenge audiences to
Speaker 1: watch differently, to grapple with questions when the thing is over,
Speaker 1: And you know that's not always the same thing as
Speaker 1: making something that's just popular and fun that makes people happy.
Speaker 1: That's not my path. My path is to make things
Speaker 1: that make us see ourselves differently. The response to that
Speaker 1: is a very complicated thing. And you know, it's funny.
Speaker 1: I was at Sundance this last time and everyone was
Speaker 1: talking about like, well, Dear White People was such a
Speaker 1: darling and it was such a huge hit and all
Speaker 1: this kind of stuff, And I just remember at the
Speaker 1: time when Dear White People came out, like, I didn't
Speaker 1: feel that way. You know, the industry. No, I absolutely
Speaker 1: did not feel like a darling of the industry. I was,
Speaker 1: you know, having to fight all these battles just to
Speaker 1: get a release to and have marketing budgets, and you know,
Speaker 1: these Q and A's were routing man because Dear White
Speaker 1: People at the time was still really new. The concept
Speaker 1: of like a multi protagonist group of people of color
Speaker 1: shot in the cinematic style and was weird and outside
Speaker 1: the boy. That was like a new thing in twenty fourteen,
Speaker 1: and you know, now it's sort of like a given.
Speaker 1: But at the time, like people did not know what
Speaker 1: to do with that movie or to do, you know,
Speaker 1: not everybody knew what to do with it. It was
Speaker 1: not like a universal embrace. You sort of remember that way,
Speaker 1: which is interesting. But I just have to keep reminding
Speaker 1: myself that, you know, I'm not doing it for just
Speaker 1: unabashed popularity or you know, praise. I'm doing it because
Speaker 1: I love art that makes us think and wakes us
Speaker 1: up and inspires us and lights us on fire. That's
Speaker 1: the kind of art I love to consume. So it's
Speaker 1: not how do you stay grounded in that? Because that,
Speaker 1: to me, I mean, that sounds beautiful and real and
Speaker 1: incredibly authentic, and you're you're navigating that and holding that
Speaker 1: in a town that is anything. But how do you
Speaker 1: not let the perceived popularity get to your head? How
Speaker 1: do you not like start to ride your own shit?
Speaker 1: You know, essentially, and Twitter certainly makes it very hard
Speaker 1: to ride your own ship. No, I mean, look, you know,
Speaker 1: when I get a bad review, or you know, a
Speaker 1: random person I don't know sort of makes, you know,
Speaker 1: a big attempt to let me know they didn't like
Speaker 1: something I did. You know, that stuff cuts really deep,
Speaker 1: And I think for me, it's just been about trying
Speaker 1: to break into the industry. It's always been about them,
Speaker 1: whoever they are the audience, the executives, the public, whoever.
Speaker 1: It's always been about, like, you know, how do they
Speaker 1: see me? And my value is only as high as
Speaker 1: other people decide that it is. And on the other
Speaker 1: side of you know, having a breakthrough success like I
Speaker 1: did with Dear White People at the movie and the show,
Speaker 1: is sort of having an internal sense of when I've
Speaker 1: done something and when I've completed something, and when I've
Speaker 1: achieved something that you know, is separate from its reception,
Speaker 1: it's box office, it's whatever, it's acceptance into this festival
Speaker 1: where that I have to have something going on inside
Speaker 1: of me that tells me good job, justin that is separate.
Speaker 1: Even while I make things for other people, obviously, you know,
Speaker 1: I want audiences to come to my stuff and to
Speaker 1: get things out of it. But it really has been
Speaker 1: about developing that internal sense of you know, this is
Speaker 1: good enough and you're okay, and here's another story that
Speaker 1: is worth telling. Yeah. Do you think that we will
Speaker 1: see whenever we come out of this current moment, whenever
Speaker 1: we come out of this global pandemic and we start
Speaker 1: to rehabit the new Earth, as people are saying, and
Speaker 1: we find ourselves further along in this transition. What do
Speaker 1: you think that the responsibility will be of art to
Speaker 1: kind of tell the story of what we're going through
Speaker 1: and how we're going through it. I hope the responsibility
Speaker 1: will be taken with honesty. I think this is going
Speaker 1: to be a very hard thing to make sense of
Speaker 1: while we're experiencing it. I think we're all trying to.
Speaker 1: I think it's important to try to like explain and
Speaker 1: talk about what it's like as we're going through it.
Speaker 1: But I really feel like we're not really going to
Speaker 1: know what this meant until we're out of it, and
Speaker 1: you know, it's going to take some time to really
Speaker 1: truthfully lect on this time period because while we're going
Speaker 1: through we're all still gathering so much information, we're still
Speaker 1: processing it, you know. So I hope the response to
Speaker 1: it will be an honest one. Otherwise, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't want it to just be like tragedy born or
Speaker 1: like you know, or escapism either where we just never
Speaker 1: deal with it ever, you know, I sort of, you know,
Speaker 1: but I don't know what it means yet. You know,
Speaker 1: we haven't gotten to that new Earth. I don't, you know.
Speaker 1: I there's so many things that this pandemic is going
Speaker 1: to have an effect on that we cannot imagine right now.
Speaker 1: You know, part of me just wants to sit quietly
Speaker 1: and watch and see what this is going to do.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm certainly hopeful about certain aspects of it,
Speaker 1: but I'm terrified about others, especially the economic impact on
Speaker 1: the world and this country, and specifically on people who color.
Speaker 1: Of course, black folks are you know, being affected disproportionately
Speaker 1: by this pandemic, which to me is not a surprise. No,
Speaker 1: it is not if youven paying attention. Yeah, but what
Speaker 1: does that mean for us afterwards? You know, I'm still
Speaker 1: absorbing and grappling with that. Yeah, it's all really interesting,
Speaker 1: and I think think that it varies in how and
Speaker 1: who I talk to, right in what industry that they
Speaker 1: happen to be in, the politicals that I talk to,
Speaker 1: they're talking about, you know, the responsibility of government and
Speaker 1: how people will see leadership. Differently for folks that are writers,
Speaker 1: you know, actors, they're thinking about like, you know, how
Speaker 1: do I tell this story and what does this story
Speaker 1: look like moving forward? And I guess we will wait
Speaker 1: and see. But one of the last questions that I
Speaker 1: always ask people on PM mood is, how do you
Speaker 1: get in the mood to change the world? Boy, to
Speaker 1: get in the mood to change the world. For me,
Speaker 1: it always has to be about returning to myself. I
Speaker 1: can't change the world unless I change myself, and unless I,
Speaker 1: you know, try to remove the obstacles within me to
Speaker 1: my greater self and my higher purposes. You know. For me,
Speaker 1: it's about being as careful as I can with myself
Speaker 1: and as gentle as I can with myself. For me,
Speaker 1: it's about out of a Buddhist practice, it's about therapy.
Speaker 1: It's about finding an outlet for all the things that
Speaker 1: go through my head. It has to start with the individual,
Speaker 1: I think it really does. You have to know yourself
Speaker 1: and you have to know your own trauma and understand
Speaker 1: your own reflexes to things to really effectively be able
Speaker 1: to connect with other people and make change. So I
Speaker 1: don't know, that's my sort of koumba y'all, little answer, Well,
Speaker 1: I love it. Thank you justin so very much for
Speaker 1: the work that you do, for the art that you create,
Speaker 1: for the honesty that you have about all of it.
Speaker 1: It's so tremendously refreshing, And every time I talk to you.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, it's like a deep breath. I love
Speaker 1: talking to you and I'm breath fresh. Share So please
Speaker 1: stay safe, stay healthy, and hopefully I will see you
Speaker 1: on the other side of all of this. Yes, I
Speaker 1: can't wait to give you a big old hug. Will
Speaker 1: we be able to do that again? I hope so.
Speaker 1: I will find a way. I hope so find the
Speaker 1: way to hug again in the introm air. Hugs to you,
Speaker 1: Thank you, thanks for listening to this week's PM Mood.
Speaker 1: Just a quick announcement, my other political podcast, Woke af Daily,
Speaker 1: is now on Patreon. You get me five days a
Speaker 1: week forget this, folks, just five dollars a month. That
Speaker 1: is five fresh shows a week for just five dollars
Speaker 1: a month. Thanks for staying loyal and helping to support
Speaker 1: independent media. And you can continue listening to PM Mood
Speaker 1: for free every single week. Stay in the PM mood
Speaker 1: to change the world.