1 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: Welcome to PM mood, the no Talking Points, no Bullshit 2 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: podcast that takes you behind the curtain, off the red carpet, 3 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: and to the front lines of progress with change makers 4 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: and innovators that are doing the work to shift our 5 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: culture and expand our social impact. I'm so excited to 6 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: welcome friend director all around absolute badass Justin Simeon to 7 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,559 Speaker 1: PM mood. Justin Generally, when I run into you and 8 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: get to see you, whether it's on a panel, like 9 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:50,240 Speaker 1: we got to hang out a little bit in Sundance, 10 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:52,599 Speaker 1: which is my first time going to Sundance, So being 11 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: able to see you and chat with you there was 12 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: like cherry on top of the Sunday. But now we're 13 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 1: living in the midst of a global pandemic. All my 14 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: conversations start differently, how are you doing and where are 15 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 1: you I'm doing fine, I'm in la in my house 16 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:13,839 Speaker 1: sort of yep, you know, and during the lockdown, and 17 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: I'm an introvert, so I have very complicated feelings about it. 18 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: One way, it's like kind of fantastic and it's all 19 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 1: the pressure is off on the other side, like, you 20 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: know the world is really crazy and terrifying, and you know, 21 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: all you can really do is watch from inside. On 22 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: a couple of different occasions, when I was at Serious, 23 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 1: we had a conversation about black mental health, in particular 24 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: in Sundance. We talked a bit about it. On the 25 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: Telling Black Stories Being Black and Out in Hollywood panel discussion, 26 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: we talked about it. Are you having more conversations with friends, 27 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: with family, with folks about their mental health and mental 28 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: health now? Because crisis hotlines hauls are on the rise? Sadly, 29 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: domestic violence is twenty percent, which is a height. How 30 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: are you like having those conversations and also managing your 31 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 1: own mental health during this time? Yeah, it is sort 32 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: of how someone is doing in the pandemic mentally. It 33 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: really is the thing that you know, I find myself 34 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: talking about more often than not. You know, it's interesting 35 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: because I was already especially coming out of Sundance and 36 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: sort of at the start of this year, I was 37 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: already in therapy. I already you know, was talking to 38 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: a psychiatrist all those kinds of things, And really, I 39 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 1: mean that's just continuing now that we're in now we're 40 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: in lockdown. I do my therapy on zoom. But yeah, 41 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: I think it's a I think one where so everyone 42 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: is sort of being forced to be with themselves intimately 43 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: because we're all stuck inside. And I think it probably 44 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: is exacerbating all kinds of issues that were already there. 45 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: But there's a lot less distraction, and there's also a 46 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: lot of bad, genuinely bad news, you know. I mean, 47 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: this is a real situation. People are really getting sick 48 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: and dying, and you know, I think, I'm sure I'm 49 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: not breaking news by saying that the current administration is 50 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: handling it in a very terrifying manner that does not 51 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 1: make me feel safe for taking care of my government. 52 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: And so yeah, it's definitely top of mind, and I 53 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: think that, you know, for me, whatever, however somebody needs 54 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: to cope with it, I think they should be doing that. 55 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 1: And for some people that is, you know, being out there, 56 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 1: sort of connecting with people online, more giving structure to 57 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: the days, being more productive. For some of us that 58 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: may mean like I want to give myself a whole 59 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: day to stay in bed, and I think, however it 60 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: works for you, I think that's what you should do. 61 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: I don't think it should being a shame over what 62 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: someone's doing to cope, because this is just really a 63 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: unique thing. I mean, we're living through one of those 64 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: big times and humanity where everything's different and no one's 65 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: encountered this before. This is you know, our World War 66 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: two in a lot of ways, you know, for a 67 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: lot of folks, there is if you're a content creator, 68 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: right if you're a creative like you know you are, 69 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 1: there seems to be a lot of memes floating around 70 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: that are saying you don't need to be your most 71 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 1: productive self right now. You don't need to write the 72 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: New York Times bestselling novel. You don't need to put 73 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: out your Oscar Worthy, you know, film and create right now. 74 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: Do you feel the pressure to be doing the most? 75 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: Or have you taken yourself out of that and you're 76 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 1: just like, you know what I'm gonna do, Like you 77 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:25,919 Speaker 1: just said, I'm going to deal with this how I 78 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: need to deal with this. So if that means I'm 79 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: going to be in bed all day, then I'm going 80 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: to be in bed and I'm not judging myself. Or 81 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 1: do you still feel like the constant churn of like 82 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,479 Speaker 1: that doing the most culture? It's like, how you know, 83 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: I keep seeing how are you going to come out 84 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:41,479 Speaker 1: of this pandemic? You're gonna come out snatched? Are you 85 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: gonna come out? Yeah? And I'm like, what is happening? 86 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 1: I know, I do feel the pressure. I mean it's 87 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 1: everywhere you know where It's an extroverted industry that I 88 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: live in, I work in and live in. So you know, 89 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: people are launching businesses and business models right now out 90 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: of the new American normal. And I mean, for me, 91 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: I definitely feel the pressure. But I just I can't. 92 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: I can't keep up with all that. I will tell 93 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 1: you right now, I will not come out of this 94 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 1: pandemic snatched. Okay. I will come out a little bier, 95 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 1: a little woolier, probably been arrested than I've been in years. 96 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: But you know, I think the one thing that kind 97 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 1: of helps is that we are you know, we've still 98 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:25,840 Speaker 1: been writing Season four, Dear White People, even though I 99 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: think production is sort of across the board, you know, 100 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 1: down right now, we're at least still able to keep 101 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 1: a writer's room, you know, virtually and keep the scripts going, 102 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 1: which has been helpful to just sort of get structure 103 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: to the day. But also, you know, they have an 104 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: outlet of some kind, to have a deadline, to have 105 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 1: something that sort of you know, gives the days in 106 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: the week some structure. But when we're done with that, 107 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:49,720 Speaker 1: you know, I planned to I plan to stay in bed. 108 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. I can't quite. This 109 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: feels like the worst time for me to like pull 110 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 1: it together, I know, but it's like, it's just it's 111 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 1: crazy the amount of pressure that I feel, like to 112 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: pull my shit together every day. It's so bizarre because 113 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 1: I really just do want to be in bed, and 114 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:14,039 Speaker 1: it's like that everybody around me is just like, we'll 115 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: launch another podcast and do another thing, and I'm like, 116 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:20,840 Speaker 1: what the fuck. I just want, you know, I want 117 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: to get high and like relax, but through my trauma. 118 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: I think that is an appropriate response to a global pandemic, 119 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 1: I really do. I think people underestimate just how traumatic 120 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: this experience isn't all of us, you know, there's something 121 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: happening in the world that you either have absolutely no 122 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: connection to because you or nobody you know is sick 123 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: in this particular way, or you have a devastating connection 124 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: to because you know, God forbid of somebody that you know, 125 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 1: or you are sick with this thing or have any 126 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 1: other kind of serious medical issue. Your life is very 127 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: very very very impacted by this crisis right now, and 128 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 1: it's just very I think most of us are in 129 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:07,599 Speaker 1: this weird limbo of like, you know, we turn on 130 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: the TV or we scroll through the news and we 131 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: are inundated with horror, but you know, the actual day 132 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: to day moments of our lives are actually become very 133 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: mundane and you know, flat, and it's like, what, psychologically, 134 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: what do you do with that? And I think, you know, 135 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: for some people, being extremely productive might help them work 136 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: through that trauma. But I don't know if that's the 137 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: key for everybody, And I don't think anyone should feel 138 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: like that's what you have to do. I think we 139 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: all have to recognize that this is traumatic in ways 140 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: that you know, we could never have anticipated because we've 141 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: never lived through something before. Yeah, it's been a hundred 142 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: years since the last I was going to say. Even 143 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: even the things that we may have read about fifteen 144 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: twenty years ago, whether we're in school, there was no 145 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: one around to really give a firsthand account of what 146 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: it felt like to live through the fucking Spanish flu 147 00:07:57,440 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: or what it felt like to live through the Black Plate. 148 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: There's nobody being like, you know what, I remember like 149 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: we couldn't go to the horse store like there was 150 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: nothing nothing, there was nothing to say and be like 151 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: the horse store, I couldn't get my bonnet done. You know, 152 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: I would think I learned how to sew during the 153 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: Spanish Flu, Like, no, we don't. We have no sense 154 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: memory of the Spanish Flu, of the Great Depression, of 155 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: any of that. And we also have a very you know, 156 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: I think in times like this, you really do, whether 157 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: or not you like the president, you do look to 158 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: leadership for some sign of what's going to happen. And 159 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but whenever I've looked to 160 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:36,439 Speaker 1: the leadership or like dared to watch one of these 161 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: press conferences, it's really it's scary. It is scary to 162 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 1: see the level of incompetence on display and to know 163 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: that all of our lives and our income and you know, 164 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: the future of our species sort of rests on this 165 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: group of people to do the right thing, and it 166 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 1: doesn't really feel like they even know what they're talking 167 00:08:56,440 --> 00:09:00,319 Speaker 1: about Trump in particular. It's terrifying, and there's no way 168 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: that doesn't get in and doesn't have an impact on 169 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 1: one's mental health or outlook community. Yes, which is why 170 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: I think that. You know, what I do remember through 171 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:16,839 Speaker 1: reading about some of the most traumatic and tragic times 172 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: of the evolution of society is escapist, right, is what 173 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: people use to escape. And you know, in many ways 174 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 1: the birth of Hollywood and movies and film came from that, right, 175 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: people wanting to move outside of the traumas of what 176 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: was happening in World War Two and be able to escape. Right, 177 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: This was a genre of film. Now people are telling 178 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: us well, Quarantine and Chill. Right, so we've moved from 179 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:47,319 Speaker 1: Netflix and Chill to Quarantine and Chill. Your series Dear 180 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 1: White People is sadly they're graduating. It's coming to a close, 181 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:55,080 Speaker 1: which means that I have to graduate with them. I 182 00:09:55,120 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: don't want to. I want to be held back. But 183 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:04,679 Speaker 1: people are digging into Netflix now more than ever. So 184 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: tell me about what folks can look to look towards 185 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:12,679 Speaker 1: for the left. For the final installment, I should say 186 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:16,559 Speaker 1: I'm distilling of Dear White People because it's been a journey. 187 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: Yes it has, and it's very difficult to end it, 188 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: you know, and I can't say too too much, but 189 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 1: you know, I think that one we are we have 190 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 1: the hard task of landing the plane and figure out 191 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: what relationships to wrap up and how to wrap them up. 192 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: And I think it's interesting because the themes that we're 193 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 1: dealing with this season, I think are very much on 194 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: the minds of a lot of people during the pandemic. 195 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 1: But like you said, we don't want to sort of 196 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: make a pandemic season because we need to mentally escape 197 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 1: the pandemic. But this idea that we are, you know, 198 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 1: our human lives really come down to how productive we 199 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: are is sort of a symptom of capitalism, and particularly 200 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: for black folks or any kind of marginalized community, that 201 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:04,959 Speaker 1: is such a double edged sword because we're sort of 202 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 1: taught to be productive and taught to sort of have 203 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 1: a market value that will sustain us, but we are 204 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: in other ways denied, you know, human dignities, and that 205 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,680 Speaker 1: I think is I think that we can address that 206 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: in the season, as these kids are about to sort 207 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 1: of launch into the real world and you know, trade 208 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:30,199 Speaker 1: their passions for careers and for specific ways to make 209 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: money and to have market value once they graduate. I 210 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 1: think that that theme is something that will really resonate 211 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: with where people are at an experiencing right now, because 212 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: you know, the show has always been about identity versus self. 213 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 1: It's always been about like, their true humanity versus the 214 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: demands of you know, the culture and the society on them, 215 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: and the tension between those things. I think part of 216 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: what is so dramatic about the pandemic is that everyone 217 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 1: is feeling that. It's like, if I'm stuck at home 218 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: and I'm not being productive and I'm not earning money, 219 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: what am i? And who am I? Who am I? Exactly? 220 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: And that's exactly what you'd feel that senior year of college. 221 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: It's that post adolescent growing into oneself, right, Like the 222 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:15,319 Speaker 1: world is supposedly your oyster and yet right now it's 223 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: actually fucking closed. And so how do you imagine who 224 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 1: you're going to be and what you're aspiring to do 225 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 1: with such uncertainty? Right? I think the beautiful thing about 226 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: Dear White People is that for those of us who 227 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 1: are very far gone from college, like, it allows you 228 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: to relive a lot of moments. And the moment that 229 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: allows you to relive is just like the birthing of yourself, 230 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: right and in all the ways that we evolve throughout 231 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 1: the different major moments of our life, and like kind 232 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:47,200 Speaker 1: of college is one of those major capstones more so 233 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 1: than high school graduation in terms of how I look 234 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 1: at it. What for you you're going into season four, 235 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: but season three to me was huge in terms of 236 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: the character evolution and where people full like you're creating it, 237 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 1: But what was kind of a moment that you look 238 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 1: back on now as you're finishing writing season four that 239 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,439 Speaker 1: was like a highlight, like, oh shit, this character or 240 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 1: these characters or this storyline really you know, added flesh 241 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: and teeth to where this person was even from the 242 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: feature film to the first season. Well, I think Lionel 243 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: storyline last season in season three, meeting with the Deonte 244 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 1: character and sort of really getting because you know, Lionel 245 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: has been our eyes and ears to the queer experience 246 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: at Winchester, but Lionel himself, you know, part of what 247 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: his character is about is sort of learning to open 248 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: up to a new world that has always felt a 249 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 1: little bit bigger than him and intimidating. And so you know, 250 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: because he's our eyes nearest to the queer world at Winchester, 251 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: we haven't really been able to see a ton of 252 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: it because he is very early in that evolution and 253 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 1: when he meets Deonte, and Deonte kind of you know, 254 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: opens them up to this whole other group of people 255 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 1: and experiences. You know, for me, that was really gratifying 256 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: because as a queer writer filmmaker, I certainly identify with 257 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: where Lionel was and is in the story of Dear 258 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: White People, But I was eager to show, you know, 259 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 1: the world beyond that that sort of like beginner kind 260 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: of initiation that Lionel was going through, and you know, 261 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: to get more of that experience into the overall storytelling 262 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 1: of Dear White People was very gratifying. I mean, all 263 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: of the characters haven't come such a long way since 264 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: the movie, but you know, I think Lionel really was 265 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 1: on an island in the movie. He you know, he was, 266 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: he wasn't really friends with any of the people yet, 267 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: and so now he is. He is fully embedded within 268 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 1: this community. He has a place within these people, and 269 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 1: I think, you know, for queer people of color trying 270 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 1: to find our place within the larger community of color. 271 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: You know that that's a big story for me personally, 272 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: and it's one of you know, many things about that 273 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: season that I found so exciting and so exhilarating because 274 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: we Season three really was about like the nature of 275 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 1: growth and how unexpected and spontaneous it can feel, and 276 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: how it can happen, and how overwhelming it can be. 277 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: But there's also a lot of new possibilities that come 278 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: from from that experience. You know. It's like when we 279 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: dare to grow outside of what we think of ourselves, 280 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: it's very frightening, but it's also very hopeful and exciting, 281 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: and I just have a lot of fun trying to 282 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: capture that spirit. One of the other characters that I 283 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: felt like really took us, took me, and I think 284 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: audiences just in general on a journey was Reggie. Yeah, 285 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 1: you know, like he I mean, he was a heart 286 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: and then my heart broke for watching, you know, him 287 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 1: being the character that went through a traumatic experience being 288 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: at gunpoint by a police officer, and you know him 289 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: being you know, it started out as like this revolutionary right, 290 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: like we're going to be fighting the man and then 291 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: coming face to face with what that means, and then 292 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 1: rappling with the trauma of the confrontation of what it 293 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 1: means to be hunted by police, what it means to 294 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 1: be seen as a target, as this violent offender tell 295 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: me about that story because we got to see, honestly, 296 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 1: not just the he didn't become a hashtag right, right, 297 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: So we actually get to see the traumatic impact of 298 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: that confrontation with the campus police and being at gunpoint 299 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 1: and how you're supposed to the right way or not, 300 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: how you move through that. Yeah, I mean, we really 301 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 1: wanted to get into the humanity of it is sort 302 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: of beyond the kind of issue based sort of storytelling 303 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: that you kind of find and other shows about this 304 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: sort of topic where it's like it happens one week 305 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: and then the characters move on, or a character has 306 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: tragically died, or you know, it's sort of like a 307 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: one time thing. You know. When we have these experiences 308 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 1: in the world, they live in us for the rest 309 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: of our lives. And I think the Reggie's life after 310 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: the experience with the campus police and how he is 311 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 1: dealing with that trauma, to me, was the most interesting 312 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,679 Speaker 1: and helpful part about his journey. And I think, you know, 313 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 1: for Reggie, to me, Reggie really is the heart of 314 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 1: the show. He has our gut, you know what I mean, Like, 315 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:20,239 Speaker 1: you know, Sam and Lionel fight over our intellect, and 316 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: the Coco has the one liners, and she gives us 317 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 1: some of our spirit, But Reggie is our heart, you know. 318 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: And I'm very invested in showing, you know, what it 319 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 1: looks like to become the man that you project yourself 320 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: to be at the beginning of a journey like this, 321 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 1: and then when you encounter hardships and you realize how 322 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:39,880 Speaker 1: difficult and traumatic it is to sort of live up 323 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: to your own sort of way you see yourself. I'm 324 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: very invested in showing Reggie doing that successfully and showing 325 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: us how to do it. And you know, I think 326 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: we give him a lot of obstacles to overcome because 327 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: those are the ones we're overcoming ourselves. Like you know, 328 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: in season three, he sort of finds a savior figure 329 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 1: in Blair Underwood, and I think we all certainly that 330 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: the especially when we were making that season, I certainly 331 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 1: was grappling with, you know, what do you do when 332 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 1: these heroes in your head have helped you overcome time 333 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: and time again all of the negative thinking that society 334 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 1: has sort of put on me when those heroes themselves 335 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: are found wanting or divisive or dangerous or you know, 336 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: we were losing the heroes left and right, and certainly 337 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: with the Me Too movement, you know, I think necessarily so, 338 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: but still like for black people, these aren't just entertainers 339 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 1: or interesting people. These are the people who made us 340 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 1: feel like we could do anything. And these are people 341 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: who made us feel like we could get out of 342 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 1: bed at the boarding and make us feel like we're worthy. 343 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: What do we do when those people let us down? 344 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 1: How do we find those resources in ourselves? I think 345 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 1: that's really the journey of Reggie. And you know, in 346 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 1: that way, he sort of you know, for me, he 347 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 1: represents where my heart has been at each year that 348 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 1: we've made the show. Whatever's happening with Reggie, like that 349 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: is saying something about me emotionally. It's a sort of 350 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: like sneak peek into my into my inner psyche, as 351 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: it were. Yeah, yeah, the way that you have just 352 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: developed these characters, how you know connected people have become 353 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:19,919 Speaker 1: to them. Does it surprise you the way that people 354 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 1: have connected so much to deer white people? And I 355 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,360 Speaker 1: know that you said like I can't imagine what it's 356 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 1: like to land the plane on a journey like this. 357 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 1: How do you do that? I guess is really the question, 358 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: like is it a gut feeling that you were like, 359 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: we have to wrap this up, or I know how 360 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:40,120 Speaker 1: to wrap this up, or I feel like it's time 361 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: to wrap it up. You know, the thing about this 362 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: era of TV is that we never knew at the 363 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: end of each season if we were coming back or 364 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: for how long we were coming back, and so I 365 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:50,919 Speaker 1: never really had the luxury of being able to plot 366 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:54,399 Speaker 1: out like what the show was going to definitively be. 367 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: But I certainly, you know, I've always known for me anyway, 368 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: with the show is really at its core about and 369 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 1: this season, I'm doing what I always do. I'm bringing 370 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: my whole heart into the process, the things that I'm 371 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 1: struggling with, the things that I'm excited about, the things 372 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: that I'm obsessed with, and I'm having all of my 373 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 1: writers do the same. And you know, we all love 374 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: these characters and so we want to respectfully bring their 375 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 1: storylines to a conclusion that feels honest and real. But 376 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 1: we also are just dealing with our shit in our art. 377 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: I mean, that's really what Dear White People is on 378 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,400 Speaker 1: this side of it. You know, On one hand, I'm 379 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 1: not surprised that people connect to it, because I know, 380 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:34,680 Speaker 1: I mean, we really put our foot in the show. 381 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,199 Speaker 1: Like it is not like we're not just doing some bs, 382 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,439 Speaker 1: like we are really actively thinking about all the choices 383 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:42,919 Speaker 1: are going to the show. We're trying to like dig 384 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,400 Speaker 1: really deep every season to put the things that are 385 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: really on our hearts in the show. And so, you know, 386 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: I think it's natural that people will connect to it 387 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: if you know the creative team is doing that on 388 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 1: a consistent basis. But on the other end, you know, 389 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:56,880 Speaker 1: I don't expect that ever, So you know, I have 390 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: terrible self estates, so you know, I'm always a little 391 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: surprised where people like the things I do, which again 392 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: I am in therapy and we are working. We are 393 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: working on that. We are we are all a work 394 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: in progress. Listen, actively working on it. What does it 395 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 1: feel like to you to create these days? As you're 396 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,399 Speaker 1: no longer a newbie right like, you have been in 397 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: this game now for quite some time. You have had 398 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: a lot of success. And again I say that to you. 399 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: You may you may challenge yourself in other ways, but 400 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 1: from the outside, I will say you've had tremendous success. 401 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:40,919 Speaker 1: What does it mean to be a black queer creative 402 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 1: right now? For you in Hollywood it's a battle. It's 403 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,400 Speaker 1: a battle. I am very grateful that I've had success 404 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:52,120 Speaker 1: in that I get paid to do what I love 405 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 1: to do. But you know, all of the sort of 406 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: insecurities and this is not like a woe was Me situation, 407 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: but like you know, growing up queer in black is 408 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 1: not easy, period. It is not easy. And just to 409 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 1: get into the industry, you have to fight so hard 410 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: to get people to see you and to get people 411 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: to think of your stories as important as the other 412 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: stories that are dominating the culture. And once you get 413 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 1: in there, that drive doesn't really turn off that sort 414 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,199 Speaker 1: of feeling that you know, people aren't getting it, or 415 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: they aren't seeing you, or you know, the difficulties of 416 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: making things for me versus you know, I'm looking at 417 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 1: my sort of white, straight counterparts. It's so evident all 418 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 1: the time that it's a little hard to sort of 419 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: not see some of the challenges that are in your way. 420 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: Even with success. And I think there is greater pressure 421 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 1: because especially you know, our folks, because we have so little, 422 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,159 Speaker 1: we have so few pieces of content. When we do 423 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: get things, you know, we're very critical. And I think 424 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 1: that that's great. I think that's important, But there's a 425 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 1: lot of pressure to sort of tell everybody's story, but 426 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 1: tell your own and be truthful, and also form to 427 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 1: the marketplace just so you can have funding to do it. 428 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,199 Speaker 1: That's a lot of things to juggle, and you know, 429 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: certainly the voices in my head that tell me I'm 430 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 1: not good enough, or I don't really belong here, or 431 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,679 Speaker 1: I'm an imposter, all those voices are very much with me, 432 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: you know, as I do this work. You know, I'm 433 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,120 Speaker 1: no different than anyone else who is dreaming to be 434 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 1: in this spot. You know, I'm still once you get there, 435 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: you're still the same. Your brain is still put together 436 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:28,439 Speaker 1: the same way. You know. For me, it's really just 437 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 1: about like not letting success become a burden or become 438 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: a pressure point, or become, you know, sort of this 439 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: obstacle that can never be overcome, and to just try 440 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: to work for my most authentic self as much as 441 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,880 Speaker 1: I can. And I think what I have to make 442 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: peace with is that, like I'm an artist that likes 443 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: to challenge. I like making things that challenge audiences to 444 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: watch differently, to grapple with questions when the thing is over, 445 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,439 Speaker 1: And you know that's not always the same thing as 446 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: making something that's just popular and fun that makes people happy. 447 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: That's not my path. My path is to make things 448 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 1: that make us see ourselves differently. The response to that 449 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 1: is a very complicated thing. And you know, it's funny. 450 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 1: I was at Sundance this last time and everyone was 451 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,159 Speaker 1: talking about like, well, Dear White People was such a 452 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: darling and it was such a huge hit and all 453 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: this kind of stuff, And I just remember at the 454 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 1: time when Dear White People came out, like, I didn't 455 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:30,199 Speaker 1: feel that way. You know, the industry. No, I absolutely 456 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 1: did not feel like a darling of the industry. I was, 457 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: you know, having to fight all these battles just to 458 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,159 Speaker 1: get a release to and have marketing budgets, and you know, 459 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 1: these Q and A's were routing man because Dear White 460 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: People at the time was still really new. The concept 461 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,159 Speaker 1: of like a multi protagonist group of people of color 462 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,880 Speaker 1: shot in the cinematic style and was weird and outside 463 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: the boy. That was like a new thing in twenty fourteen, 464 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: and you know, now it's sort of like a given. 465 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: But at the time, like people did not know what 466 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,199 Speaker 1: to do with that movie or to do, you know, 467 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 1: not everybody knew what to do with it. It was 468 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 1: not like a universal embrace. You sort of remember that way, 469 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: which is interesting. But I just have to keep reminding 470 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: myself that, you know, I'm not doing it for just 471 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,880 Speaker 1: unabashed popularity or you know, praise. I'm doing it because 472 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 1: I love art that makes us think and wakes us 473 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: up and inspires us and lights us on fire. That's 474 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: the kind of art I love to consume. So it's 475 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,640 Speaker 1: not how do you stay grounded in that? Because that, 476 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 1: to me, I mean, that sounds beautiful and real and 477 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,400 Speaker 1: incredibly authentic, and you're you're navigating that and holding that 478 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,679 Speaker 1: in a town that is anything. But how do you 479 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,400 Speaker 1: not let the perceived popularity get to your head? How 480 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,640 Speaker 1: do you not like start to ride your own shit? 481 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 1: You know, essentially, and Twitter certainly makes it very hard 482 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,919 Speaker 1: to ride your own ship. No, I mean, look, you know, 483 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,199 Speaker 1: when I get a bad review, or you know, a 484 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: random person I don't know sort of makes, you know, 485 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 1: a big attempt to let me know they didn't like 486 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,880 Speaker 1: something I did. You know, that stuff cuts really deep, 487 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,120 Speaker 1: And I think for me, it's just been about trying 488 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 1: to break into the industry. It's always been about them, 489 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:17,439 Speaker 1: whoever they are the audience, the executives, the public, whoever. 490 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 1: It's always been about, like, you know, how do they 491 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: see me? And my value is only as high as 492 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,400 Speaker 1: other people decide that it is. And on the other 493 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 1: side of you know, having a breakthrough success like I 494 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: did with Dear White People at the movie and the show, 495 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: is sort of having an internal sense of when I've 496 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 1: done something and when I've completed something, and when I've 497 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: achieved something that you know, is separate from its reception, 498 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: it's box office, it's whatever, it's acceptance into this festival 499 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: where that I have to have something going on inside 500 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 1: of me that tells me good job, justin that is separate. 501 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,719 Speaker 1: Even while I make things for other people, obviously, you know, 502 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,640 Speaker 1: I want audiences to come to my stuff and to 503 00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 1: get things out of it. But it really has been 504 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,159 Speaker 1: about developing that internal sense of you know, this is 505 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 1: good enough and you're okay, and here's another story that 506 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 1: is worth telling. Yeah. Do you think that we will 507 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: see whenever we come out of this current moment, whenever 508 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: we come out of this global pandemic and we start 509 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: to rehabit the new Earth, as people are saying, and 510 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 1: we find ourselves further along in this transition. What do 511 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: you think that the responsibility will be of art to 512 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 1: kind of tell the story of what we're going through 513 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: and how we're going through it. I hope the responsibility 514 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,159 Speaker 1: will be taken with honesty. I think this is going 515 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: to be a very hard thing to make sense of 516 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: while we're experiencing it. I think we're all trying to. 517 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: I think it's important to try to like explain and 518 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 1: talk about what it's like as we're going through it. 519 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 1: But I really feel like we're not really going to 520 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 1: know what this meant until we're out of it, and 521 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 1: you know, it's going to take some time to really 522 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: truthfully lect on this time period because while we're going 523 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: through we're all still gathering so much information, we're still 524 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: processing it, you know. So I hope the response to 525 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 1: it will be an honest one. Otherwise, you know, I 526 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 1: don't want it to just be like tragedy born or 527 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,640 Speaker 1: like you know, or escapism either where we just never 528 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:16,919 Speaker 1: deal with it ever, you know, I sort of, you know, 529 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 1: but I don't know what it means yet. You know, 530 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 1: we haven't gotten to that new Earth. I don't, you know. 531 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 1: I there's so many things that this pandemic is going 532 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: to have an effect on that we cannot imagine right now. 533 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 1: You know, part of me just wants to sit quietly 534 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: and watch and see what this is going to do. 535 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 1: You know, I'm certainly hopeful about certain aspects of it, 536 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: but I'm terrified about others, especially the economic impact on 537 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 1: the world and this country, and specifically on people who color. 538 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: Of course, black folks are you know, being affected disproportionately 539 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 1: by this pandemic, which to me is not a surprise. No, 540 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,239 Speaker 1: it is not if youven paying attention. Yeah, but what 541 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: does that mean for us afterwards? You know, I'm still 542 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 1: absorbing and grappling with that. Yeah, it's all really interesting, 543 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 1: and I think think that it varies in how and 544 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: who I talk to, right in what industry that they 545 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 1: happen to be in, the politicals that I talk to, 546 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: they're talking about, you know, the responsibility of government and 547 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 1: how people will see leadership. Differently for folks that are writers, 548 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 1: you know, actors, they're thinking about like, you know, how 549 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: do I tell this story and what does this story 550 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: look like moving forward? And I guess we will wait 551 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 1: and see. But one of the last questions that I 552 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: always ask people on PM mood is, how do you 553 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: get in the mood to change the world? Boy, to 554 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: get in the mood to change the world. For me, 555 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: it always has to be about returning to myself. I 556 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 1: can't change the world unless I change myself, and unless I, 557 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: you know, try to remove the obstacles within me to 558 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: my greater self and my higher purposes. You know. For me, 559 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 1: it's about being as careful as I can with myself 560 00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 1: and as gentle as I can with myself. For me, 561 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: it's about out of a Buddhist practice, it's about therapy. 562 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 1: It's about finding an outlet for all the things that 563 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: go through my head. It has to start with the individual, 564 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 1: I think it really does. You have to know yourself 565 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 1: and you have to know your own trauma and understand 566 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: your own reflexes to things to really effectively be able 567 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 1: to connect with other people and make change. So I 568 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: don't know, that's my sort of koumba y'all, little answer, Well, 569 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: I love it. Thank you justin so very much for 570 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: the work that you do, for the art that you create, 571 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 1: for the honesty that you have about all of it. 572 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: It's so tremendously refreshing, And every time I talk to you. 573 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, it's like a deep breath. I love 574 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,959 Speaker 1: talking to you and I'm breath fresh. Share So please 575 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: stay safe, stay healthy, and hopefully I will see you 576 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 1: on the other side of all of this. Yes, I 577 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 1: can't wait to give you a big old hug. Will 578 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: we be able to do that again? I hope so. 579 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 1: I will find a way. I hope so find the 580 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 1: way to hug again in the introm air. Hugs to you, 581 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: Thank you, thanks for listening to this week's PM Mood. 582 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: Just a quick announcement, my other political podcast, Woke af Daily, 583 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 1: is now on Patreon. You get me five days a 584 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: week forget this, folks, just five dollars a month. That 585 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: is five fresh shows a week for just five dollars 586 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: a month. Thanks for staying loyal and helping to support 587 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: independent media. And you can continue listening to PM Mood 588 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: for free every single week. Stay in the PM mood 589 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 1: to change the world.