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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Courtney Armstrong. I am

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Speaker 2: so lucky to be here with crime Analyst, my buddy

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Speaker 2: body movin. Stephanie is out tonight. She is having fun

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Speaker 2: with other friends.

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Speaker 3: And I hope other friends.

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Speaker 2: I thought that might get your eye.

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Speaker 3: Listen, Stephanie, if you can hear me, we are your

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Speaker 3: only friends. Okay, get back here right now.

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Speaker 2: I hope you don't hear us, and have a wonderful time.

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Speaker 2: And for everybody else. It is Wednesday, October twenty second,

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Speaker 2: and we have a stacked night of headlines. Idaho student

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Speaker 2: killer Brian Colberger is refusing to pay his court mandated restitute.

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Speaker 2: We will be breaking down his legal argument. The Louver

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Speaker 2: reopened today to the public. More information about this weekend

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Speaker 2: shocking jewel heist has been made public, and we're going

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Speaker 2: to go over that as well. The trial of former

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Speaker 2: Sagamon County Deputy Sean Grayson he's been charged with first

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Speaker 2: degree murder in the fatal shooting of Sonia Macy that

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Speaker 2: began today that trial, and body's going to fill us in.

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Speaker 2: A beloved Texas teacher has been found dead, very sadly

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Speaker 2: and it's a confusing, uncomplicated story. Her husband was arrested

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Speaker 2: after some really bizarre circumstances. We'll explore that as well.

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Speaker 2: Plus we are going to be discussing death and apartment

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Speaker 2: six oh three, what happened to Ellen Greenberg? And that

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Speaker 2: is for this week's True Crime and chill. That's right,

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Speaker 2: So body bring us in.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Brian Coberger, huh this oh, I sware this guy right,

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Speaker 3: so yeah. Brian Coberger's legal team is fighting an additional

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Speaker 3: twenty seven thousand dollars restitution requests from the victims' families,

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Speaker 3: while disturbing new details have been, you know, come out

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Speaker 3: about the nature of Kaylee Gonsalvas's post mortem wounds, you

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Speaker 3: know that have merged in the trial from her sister, Olivia.

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Speaker 3: Brian Colberger he is the former criminology PhD student. He

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Speaker 3: pled guilty in July of twenty twenty five to the

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Speaker 3: November twenty twenty two stabbing and murder of four University

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Speaker 3: of Idaho students. In exchange for avoiding the death penalty,

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Speaker 3: he accepted four consecutive life sentences, waived his appeal rights,

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Speaker 3: and agreed to pay significant criminal and civil financial penalties.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: We all remember it was something like two hundred and

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Speaker 3: thirty three thousand dollars, right.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I think it's important what you just said

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Speaker 2: that he agreed to pay those penalties.

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Speaker 3: Right. Well, there's an additional twenty seven thousand dollars now,

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Speaker 3: and they're balking at this amount. Okay, So his defense

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Speaker 3: team is challenging this new twenty seven thousand dollars restitution request,

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Speaker 3: arguing that the victims' families received public, significant public donations

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Speaker 3: via a GoFundMe. The contested amounts include a twenty thousand

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Speaker 3: dollars for Kayley gun Salvias parents and nearly seven thousand

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Speaker 3: dollars for Madison Mogen's mother related to travel and accommodation expenses.

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Speaker 3: Remember they have to travel from really far away to

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Speaker 3: go to these trials, and they had these gofundmes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, they have to travel, they have to not

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Speaker 2: be working if anyone has pets. Yep, that's no joke.

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Speaker 2: Toward them. Yeah, the mental health, you know, I mean,

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Speaker 2: the costs are not just an airplane ticket.

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Speaker 3: Right, So the defense is arguing that the additional restitution

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Speaker 3: does not qualify as an economic loss under Idaho law.

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Speaker 3: They emphasize that Brian Koberger is serving life without parole

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Speaker 3: and has no means to pay it now or in

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Speaker 3: the future. A court filing stated that the consolists and

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Speaker 3: Laramie family that is, Mattie Mogen's mom and her husband

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Speaker 3: collectively raised over two hundred and seven thousand dollars from

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Speaker 3: three separate GoFundMe campaigns, and that is all true. That

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Speaker 3: is all very true. However, the notice he still has

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Speaker 3: to pay this restitution, Sorry, I'm having trouble finding my words,

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Speaker 3: is just so upsetting. The idea for a restitution, isn't

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Speaker 3: that Brian Coberger has the money, right, Like, that's not

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Speaker 3: the point. The point is he can't be having money

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Speaker 3: added to his books and living this great life of

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Speaker 3: luxury from commissary items. That's the point in my opinion,

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Speaker 3: that's the point, right.

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Speaker 2: And also we've had Jarrett Farantino on before, best legal

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Speaker 2: expert out there, and we've talked about this because I

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Speaker 2: think I might have asked him, how in the world

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Speaker 2: are people who are in prison going to pay whatever

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Speaker 2: the astronomical amount may be. And you know, basically he said,

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Speaker 2: in almost all instances, good luck, You're not You're not

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Speaker 2: going to get it. But as you said, it so

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Speaker 2: that you then can't receive moneies on top of it.

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Speaker 2: But I take great issue with the defense calling into

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Speaker 2: question the victims' families go fund me.

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Speaker 3: I do too, and you know I donated to that

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Speaker 3: go fund me. You know, when there was going to

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Speaker 3: be a trial, they needed help, right, They had no

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Speaker 3: idea they were going to it was going to be

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Speaker 3: a six month trial. You guys, okay, so you're a

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Speaker 3: family member. What are you supposed to do. You can't

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Speaker 3: work for six months, you can't. So when the trial

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Speaker 3: when he pled guilty and we learned there was no trial,

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Speaker 3: and they were like, we're going to try to figure

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Speaker 3: out how to get this money back, I was like,

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Speaker 3: keep it. I don't care. They should keep it, Like

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Speaker 3: no amount of money is going to make you feel

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Speaker 3: better by any you know, by any means, but if

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Speaker 3: it helps you, like sleep an extra hour that day

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Speaker 3: to get some rest from this tragedy. You've experienced, then

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Speaker 3: please keep it. That's my feelings as a donator who.

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Speaker 2: Don't need one hundred percent, And I agree with everything

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Speaker 2: you just said and the same like, please let this

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Speaker 2: bring you any modicum of anything. Yeah, a sandwich you

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Speaker 2: don't have to make, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, if you want a pair of earrings

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Speaker 3: or to make you feel better, I don't care what

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Speaker 3: it is, right, I'm happy for you to do that. Right. So,

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Speaker 3: there's going to be a notice of restitution hearing and

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Speaker 3: that's going to be on November fifth at ten am

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Speaker 3: mountain time, and it's going to be to determine these issues,

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Speaker 3: and we're going to definitely be following up on that again.

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Speaker 3: The idea is they know Brian Coberger's not going to

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Speaker 3: be able to pay this, right, I mean obviously he

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Speaker 3: he doesn't have any money, and there's already a two

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Speaker 3: hundred and thirty something thousand dollars restitution that he owes

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Speaker 3: and like five thousand dollars for each victim for burial

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Speaker 3: expenses and whatnot. But that's not the point. The point

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Speaker 3: is that if somebody, some you know, whacked out fan

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Speaker 3: of his sends him two hundred dollars for his books.

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Speaker 3: The families and the state, I imagine, don't want him

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Speaker 3: to have that. They don't want him buying fuzzy slippers

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Speaker 3: right in prison. I'm that's my guess. That's my guess.

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Speaker 3: That makes sense. If you know, if you know, why

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Speaker 3: give us a call eight to DA thirty one crime.

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Speaker 3: I'd love to hear from you about it. Do you say, oh,

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Speaker 3: that's going to ask?

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Speaker 4: Is there a world where they could ever go at

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Speaker 4: family like his family members?

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Speaker 3: I don't think so. I mean, they would have to

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Speaker 3: file a wrongful death claim and it would have to

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Speaker 3: be civil kind of like by basically saying that whatever

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Speaker 3: the family did is responsible for what Brian Coberger did.

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Speaker 3: And I don't think that the family of Brian Coberger

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Speaker 3: has done anything wrong, you know what I mean? Like,

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Speaker 3: I don't know what they could have done, but I

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Speaker 3: do think they could go after I hate to say this,

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Speaker 3: but I do think they could go after wsu.

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Speaker 2: Oh right, Well, hasn't the groundwork been laid by the

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Speaker 2: Gonsalvez family for a potential civil trial.

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Speaker 3: I know that they filed tortue claims against the Moscow

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Speaker 3: Police Department, and I maybe the city of Moscow and

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Speaker 3: the Idaho, the University of Idaho. I don't know if

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Speaker 3: they filed tort claims against WSU, and that would lay

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Speaker 3: the groundwork for the But they filed those tort claims

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Speaker 3: a long time ago, like maybe two years ago. Now

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Speaker 3: it's been a long time, so I don't know what

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Speaker 3: Shannon Gray has done. Shannon Gray is the lawyer for

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Speaker 3: the Consols family. I don't know if he's filed anything.

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Speaker 3: I haven't checked against WSU, but maybe I should, Maybe

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Speaker 3: I should check.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I gotta say I'm still I am flabbergasted that

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Speaker 2: the defense team I am too, is waving a flag

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Speaker 2: over this. And honestly, the twenty seven thousand dollars that

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Speaker 2: they're now arguing about and bringing to court those moneies

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Speaker 2: will be spent on lawyers anyway. I'd have to imagine

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Speaker 2: by the end of the day.

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Speaker 3: And it's probably costing thirty grand just to have this hearing.

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Speaker 2: That's right, It's an odd sword to dieos.

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Speaker 3: It makes me feel it almost makes me feel like

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Speaker 3: Brian Coberger himself is like no, and that this has

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Speaker 3: been his goal the entire time, to be a complete

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Speaker 3: jerk for you know, in causing absolute chaos the ripple

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Speaker 3: effect right to as many people as possible. Yeah, that tracks.

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Speaker 4: I could see him being the jerk that says, no,

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Speaker 4: I'm going to do that, and I'm not going to

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Speaker 4: do it so right, although I'll be interested.

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Speaker 2: Speaking of Jarrett Farantino, I'd love to have him on

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Speaker 2: and ask him a couple of questions about this whenever

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Speaker 2: he has the time, because as counsel, where does your

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Speaker 2: where does your counsel end saying you know, this is

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Speaker 2: not a last decision because of what versus? How much

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Speaker 2: do you have to serve your client? Particularly if the goal,

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Speaker 2: and maybe this is part of it, is to not

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Speaker 2: have him have Coburger have any reason to argue about

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Speaker 2: that's correct, poor representation. Anyway, we'd love to hear your

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Speaker 2: thoughts on this. This is true crime tonight. We're on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: I'm Courtney, I'm strong, I'm here with body moving to bodies, dismay,

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Speaker 2: Stephanie's out with other friends.

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Speaker 3: Has a friend?

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Speaker 2: I thought it was, but listen, we really would love

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Speaker 2: to hear your thoughts on the Idaho student killer Brian

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Speaker 2: Coburger and his counsel saying that they shouldn't have to

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Speaker 2: pay monies to the victim's family because they already got

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Speaker 2: that through gofundmes. So give us a call eight at

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Speaker 2: eight three one crime or hit us on the talk

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Speaker 2: back and body, can you fill us in about the

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Speaker 2: TikTok story.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so, I just before I begin, I kind of

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Speaker 3: want to give a trigger warning for those who you

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Speaker 3: know might be triggered by this. You know, I'm going

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Speaker 3: to be describing some of the wounds that Kayleie received

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Speaker 3: and it's very upsetting. So this is your trigger warning.

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Speaker 3: Olivia's on call this. She is Kaylee's sister, and she's

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Speaker 3: been making a lot of TikTok videos. I follow her

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Speaker 3: on TikTok and she's been making a lot of TikTok

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Speaker 3: videos and she made one a couple of days ago

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Speaker 3: where she revealed that prosecutor shared images of Kaylee's wounds

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Speaker 3: with her. There was about twenty six images that they

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Speaker 3: shared with her that she had a meeting with them, Okay,

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Speaker 3: and in this meeting, she wanted answers and don't blame

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Speaker 3: her like when totally not the same, literally not the same.

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Speaker 3: But when my mom got diagnosed with cancer, I wanted

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Speaker 3: to know every thing, every detail, like every procedure, I

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Speaker 3: needed to know, and so I definitely feel like if

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Speaker 3: I was in Olivia's position, I would be the same way.

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Speaker 3: I would want to know everything. Okay, that makes sense,

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Speaker 3: so please there's no shade to Olivia for this. So

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Speaker 3: she revealed something very interesting in these twenty six images

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Speaker 3: of Kaylee's wounds. Some of them appeared to what she

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Speaker 3: described were They described to Olivia as experimental wounds. And

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Speaker 3: what an experimental wound is. We'll probably talk with this

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Speaker 3: with Joseph Scott Morgan, our forensic expert on probably on Sunday,

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Speaker 3: but just as a like, you know, let's give a

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Speaker 3: layman's talk, let's give a little, you know, our little

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Speaker 3: layman's explanation. So, an experimental wound in forensic pathology terms,

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Speaker 3: it refers to an injury inflicted by an assailant after

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Speaker 3: death or during the killing, and it's done not to kill.

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Speaker 3: It's almost if they're still alive. It could be torturous,

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Speaker 3: but it's it's seemingly to test or explore. Again, that's

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Speaker 3: why they call it experimental. The victims' bodies. They're sometimes

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Speaker 3: also described as manipulative, post mortem or symbolic wounds, depending

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Speaker 3: on the context and timing. They're often well, they're always

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Speaker 3: non fatal. They're often superficial incisions or mutilations applied intentionally

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Speaker 3: by the killer. Typically they're not consistent with defensive wounds

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Speaker 3: or the main cause of death. They're often found post

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Speaker 3: mortem or paramodem mortem, which is around the time of death.

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Speaker 3: They know this, They know that they're experimental because they

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Speaker 3: don't show any bleeding. Okay, so I was just wrapping

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Speaker 3: my head around it.

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Speaker 4: So this is when like a victim is there, he's

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Speaker 4: sort of just putting like a knife in slowly or

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Speaker 4: gently to just attest it.

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Speaker 3: I'm not plic I mean, I'm trying to be as

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Speaker 3: you know, cooth as possible. But if if there's a

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Speaker 3: person who is passed away, and let's say like okay,

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Speaker 3: imagine that you're a murderer, I don't know, like put

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Speaker 3: your mind in this position. Okay, when you're in the

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Speaker 3: midst of stabbing somebody, you probably don't really get to

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Speaker 3: visualize it all that well because you're in the middle

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Speaker 3: of this chaos, right So after the death, they might

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Speaker 3: want to see what that looks like. What does it

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Speaker 3: look like when my blade enters the skin? This is

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Speaker 3: my Layman's explanation. By the way, No, now it makes

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Speaker 3: more sense to me. So I guess it's very it's

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Speaker 3: very sadistic. It's very sadistic. Okay, So that's what those

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Speaker 3: experimental wounds are. And Olivia described her recent in person

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Speaker 3: meeting with the prosecutors as kind of traumatic. And I

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Speaker 3: can understand why. I mean, oh my god, they showed

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Speaker 3: her twenty six pictures of her lovely sister.

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Speaker 2: Oh horrible.

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Speaker 3: But despite leaving the meeting with more respect, she left

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Speaker 3: the meeting with more respect for the prosecutors. But those calls.

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Speaker 3: Family remains critical of the plea deal and how the

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Speaker 3: case has been handled.

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Speaker 2: No, it's complicated stuff, it really is. When we come back,

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Speaker 2: you're going to be hearing about the looves doors. They

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Speaker 2: are back open now and so are some of the

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Speaker 2: secrets of that breeze in Paris heist. Courtney silty murder

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Speaker 2: trial begins for the deputy charge in Sonya Mazie's death.

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Speaker 2: Keep it here True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 3: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we

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Speaker 3: talk true crime all the time. I'm body and I'm

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Speaker 3: here with Top Sam Adam and Courtney. Don't forget. If

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Speaker 3: you miss any part of Tonight's show, you can always

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Speaker 3: catch the podcast. And we also want to hear from you.

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Speaker 3: Give us a call at eighty eight thirty one Crime

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Speaker 3: or get us on our socials at True Crime Tonight's

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Speaker 3: Show on TikTok or Instagram and True Crime Tonight on Facebook.

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Speaker 3: But first, Courtney, we have an update on this thief

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Speaker 3: of the Louver. What's going on?

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Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, So the Louver has reopened. The public,

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Speaker 2: I'm sure was thrilled and the investigation is intensifying. And

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Speaker 2: this is regarding Sunday's one hundred and two million dollar

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Speaker 2: jewel Risto.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Before before, yes, it was invaluable or priceless. Well, this

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Speaker 2: is the price that has been put on. On the

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Speaker 2: morning of October nineteenth, thieves executed a smash and grab robbery.

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Speaker 2: It took just minutes. And this was again at the

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Speaker 2: famed Louve Museum in Paris, and the stole eight jewel

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Speaker 2: encrusted royal artifacts in under four minutes. This all happened

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Speaker 2: in the Apollo Room, so it was a gallery housing

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Speaker 2: some of France's most historic imperial treasures. And get this,

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Speaker 2: the crime unfolded just under three hundred yards from the

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Speaker 2: Mona Lisa and happened the museum was open to the public.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god. Now, now, Courtney, where were you on

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Speaker 3: October nineteen? I mean.

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Speaker 2: Ed secrets.

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Speaker 3: Ed called you out, one of our listeners. He called

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Speaker 3: in last night and he wants to know where you were.

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Speaker 3: You've been taking some time off. He's very suspicious.

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Speaker 2: I was indeed out on Sunday.

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Speaker 3: He's like, huh, right now, did you guys see this video?

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Speaker 3: I just saw it recently, like, guess, yeah, I thought

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Speaker 3: it was fake. I had to check in with you guys.

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Speaker 3: So there's a video of the thieves and they're dressed

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Speaker 3: in all black and they've got like you can't they've

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Speaker 3: got like masks on, like black you know, schrisk like blakavas,

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Speaker 3: and they got these yellow vests on like they're like workers. Right,

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, it's scary. It's crazy.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think if I had seen those vests, I

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Speaker 4: probably would not have paid attention to those people working, like, oh,

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Speaker 4: there's just workers.

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Speaker 3: It would be sess of the bolla kavas, the mask

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Speaker 3: probably Yeah, you're right, well, but if you're working and

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Speaker 3: you're picking.

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Speaker 2: Up dust or particles, from you're not buying it.

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Speaker 4: I would yeah, like a full like if it's the

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Speaker 4: full face mask, is that what it is they have the.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like the black schemes mask.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a little more sess than like, yeah, you know,

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Speaker 4: just a you know, that's.

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Speaker 3: What it looked like from the video. I could be wrong,

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Speaker 3: but it looked like they were wearing full ski masks. Now,

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Speaker 3: if they were wearing like Pepa filter masks or whatever,

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Speaker 3: like you know, with the filters on the side, then

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Speaker 3: they'd be like, oh okay, you know, the dust and whatnot.

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Speaker 3: But these looked like black sche masks.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, they look a little yeah, you would think something

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Speaker 4: unusual is happening.

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Speaker 3: I thought it was a thought like I was being fooled.

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Speaker 2: But really these days, investigators they're exploring the theory that

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Speaker 2: the heist may have actually involved an insider or someone

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Speaker 2: who has really intimate knowledge of the museum's layout, their

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Speaker 2: security weaknesses because of the speed and the precision of

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Speaker 2: the theft. And then the prosecutors have confirmed that the

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Speaker 2: thieves used a truck mounted freight lift, the kind you'd

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Speaker 2: used to move furniture, and that was to access the

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Speaker 2: second story window facing the sin so that lift has

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Speaker 2: had been rented under false pretenses and the operator was

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Speaker 2: threatened and forced to leave. The scene's interesting.

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Speaker 3: Interesting.

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Speaker 2: So the fact that it was facing and I'm not

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Speaker 2: pronouncing this correct or nicely, the send the water that

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Speaker 2: runs through Harris, So because it was there, most of

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Speaker 2: the people the entrance, the main entry is on the

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Speaker 2: other side of the museum, so there is a lot

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Speaker 2: less foot traffic side. And then also we learned today

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Speaker 2: because we were talking about, oh my goodness, one of

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Speaker 2: those huge lifts, right, be so conspicuous, but because in

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Speaker 2: Paris so many of the people live in places with

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Speaker 2: really narrow hallways and stairs, they're incredibly common. Anytime anyone

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Speaker 2: moves pretty much they lift the furniture out and go

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Speaker 2: in through large French picture windows that open double wide

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Speaker 2: French windows.

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Speaker 3: Okay, can I just tell you can try everybody way.

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Speaker 3: Before the show started, we were kind of going over

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Speaker 3: our notes and what we were going to say, and

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Speaker 3: we were talking about this lift, right, how did they

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Speaker 3: how did they do this? And then we found out, oh,

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Speaker 3: it's very normal to rent these lifts because people move

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Speaker 3: right and you've got to move in. And I'm like, okay, well,

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Speaker 3: how do they get in the house though, Like, how

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Speaker 3: do they get in the apartment? And Courtney was like,

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Speaker 3: probably the window And I'm like, you're telling me they

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Speaker 3: put like a queen bed through these windows. She goes, well,

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Speaker 3: they're French wind and I was like, oh my god,

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Speaker 3: are so dumb.

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Speaker 4: Like like they opened the double ones, you know, the

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Speaker 4: double on the French window.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, you're so American?

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Speaker 2: Right the fact, so, among among the items that were stolen,

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Speaker 2: there was an emerald set imperial crown from Empress Eugene

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Speaker 2: and that had over over thirteen hundred diamonds. And that

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Speaker 2: one was found just outside the museum. It was damaged

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Speaker 2: but intact, okay, And yeah, the remaining seven artifacts are

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Speaker 2: still missing.

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Speaker 4: I wonder if that was the most expensive one, like

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Speaker 4: that sounds like it would have been the priciest one

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Speaker 4: that they dropped and lost.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I haven't seen anything that details that breaks out

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Speaker 2: the eight different items, but yeah, that one.

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Speaker 3: Sounds they didn't take any like paintings, right, So like

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Speaker 3: it definitely is for resale, right, like some kind of

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Speaker 3: chiseling down and resale. That's what it feels. You can't

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Speaker 3: you can't really resell the Mona Lisa, right right, right,

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Speaker 3: but you can resell Ruby's.

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Speaker 4: Which someone I had dinner with a friend the other

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Speaker 4: day who said, I guess the Mona Lisa years ago

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Speaker 4: was stolen and that was one of the issues that

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Speaker 4: they really couldn't resell it. So I guess now at

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Speaker 4: this point maybe they target things that like, let me

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Speaker 4: get something that I can easily take and you know, resell.

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Speaker 4: But I also still have a feeling there are people

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Speaker 4: out there that have these private collections in their wealthy

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Speaker 4: billionaire islands or whatever that.

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Speaker 3: I want this piece to keep. But who knows, who knows?

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Speaker 3: I even heard that. I've even heard conspiracy theories that

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Speaker 3: the paintings in the louver aren't even real, that the

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00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,080
Speaker 3: fake ones are the fail, and that the real ones

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Speaker 3: are like you know, in private collections elsewhere. I've heard it.

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Speaker 2: Like it. But know when when you guys say that

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Speaker 2: about people with these collections, I'm totally picturing sort of

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Speaker 2: animals you shouldn't hunt. Yeah, and just like that creepy

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Speaker 2: vibe or creepy to me at least, what have that.

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Speaker 2: But there's a team of about one hundred investigators who

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Speaker 2: are working the case. They are going through surveillance footage,

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Speaker 2: they're processing the forensic evidence from the scene, they're mapping

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Speaker 2: out the suspects escape route. So there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: elbow grease being put into this. And the French president

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00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,959
Speaker 2: has called the the the theft, an attack on the

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Speaker 2: country's heritage. Yeah, and they're not happy this is. They're

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00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 2: saying it's a you know, it's a major systemic failure. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: projects the negative image of France. So we'll keep you updated,

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00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:02,760
Speaker 2: to be updated.

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Speaker 3: It's pretty interesting to me. This is true crime tonight

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Speaker 3: on iHeartRadio. I'm body Moving and I'm here with Courtney

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Speaker 3: Armstrong and tah We've been talking about this lou He's

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Speaker 3: but we're going to move on to another subject. We

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00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 3: want to hear from you. Give us a call eighty

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Speaker 3: eight thirty one crime or hit us on the talkbacks

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Speaker 3: on the iHeartRadio app. Courtney, what's going on in Josie.

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Speaker 2: This is a sad story.

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Speaker 3: This one makes me angry. Actually yeah, yeah, myself box

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Speaker 3: a little bit.

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Speaker 2: So there's a seventeen year old suspect and we're choosing

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Speaker 2: not to say their name. So a seventeen year old

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Speaker 2: suspect who's accused of fatally striking two other teens in

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Speaker 2: a hit and run. Allegedly, the suspect had swatted one

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Speaker 2: of the victims home twice before the murders. The victims

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Speaker 2: are Maria Neotis and Isabella Salis. They're both seventeen years old.

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Speaker 2: They were killed while riding e bikes. They were riding

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Speaker 2: e bikes to go of ice cream with one of

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00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:06,200
Speaker 2: the families and on that journey they were hit by

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Speaker 2: this suspect. It happened at the end of September on

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Speaker 2: the twenty ninth, and he has been charged with two

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Speaker 2: counts of first degree murder and I was following the incident. Currently,

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Speaker 2: he is in custody. Both of the victims were high

432
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:27,560
Speaker 2: school seniors at Cransford High. Maria was an aspiring cosmetologist.

433
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,360
Speaker 2: Isabella was a gifted singer and a performer, and they

434
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 2: were just really beloved by classmates. What has the more details,

435
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:41,440
Speaker 2: But what's your big first reaction body because.

436
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,439
Speaker 3: There's money to be had, Well, my big reaction is

437
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,880
Speaker 3: he's the subject or the suspect is seventeen years old,

438
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,119
Speaker 3: and I'm kind of wondering why he's not being charged

439
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:57,120
Speaker 3: as an adult because they've charged younger kids with adult

440
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:01,639
Speaker 3: crimes that have done less heinous things, and so I

441
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 3: wanted to know more about that. So I went and

442
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 3: researched it as best as I could, my little layman's

443
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:12,919
Speaker 3: lawyer research, right, And here's what I found. So my

444
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 3: understanding is that the he's not being charged as an

445
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 3: adult because he's seventeen, Okay, And that's one of the

446
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,160
Speaker 3: reasons we aren't saying his name because he's a minor,

447
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 3: all right, but he is. He has been charged in

448
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 3: juvenile proceedings for two counts of for surgree murder. The

449
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 3: prosecutors have not yet waived, which means they transfer the

450
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 3: case to the adult court. And they have not done

451
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 3: that and I'm going to put this in parentheses yet, Okay,

452
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 3: So it's possible. It is possible. So in New Jersey,

453
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:49,679
Speaker 3: such a decision is discretionary, so the prosecutor doesn't have

454
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 3: to wave it and transfer it to the adult court,

455
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 3: but they can, but it involves a couple steps. Got

456
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 3: why he wasn't immediately charged in as an adult is

457
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 3: because he has seven ten years old and the case

458
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 3: is initially treated under juvenile court by default, so unless

459
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 3: the prosecutor seeks this waiver to move it to adult court,

460
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 3: it's going to stay in juvenile court. So we're gonna

461
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 3: have to see the What I did read was that

462
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 3: it's incredibly difficult to overcome once the court sees how

463
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 3: horrible this you know, case was. So my basically, what

464
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 3: I'm saying is if the prosecutor did decide to wave

465
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 3: and transfer it to adult court, it would likely be accepted.

466
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 4: It would be because of the natures, right, Okay, that's right, right,

467
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 4: So that's.

468
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 3: That's one of the things I was kind of upset

469
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 3: about because, you know, he showed we we've talked about

470
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,160
Speaker 3: this case before, and he showed a lot of malice

471
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 3: prior to the you know, running these these girls down.

472
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 3: These kids, the girls, right, and he was on YouTube

473
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 3: and tiktoks kind of like making fun of them. He

474
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 3: squawwed them. The parents of one of the girls and

475
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I don't have in front of me, but

476
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 3: of one of the girls got a restraining order against him.

477
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 2: Even Maria Neotis, thank you. Yeah that The Neodas family

478
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,719
Speaker 2: was swatted twice in the month of September leading up

479
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:14,719
Speaker 2: to the fatal crash.

480
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 3: And let's not underestimate swatting somebody is so dangerous. We

481
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 3: talked about this with David's case and his parents being swatted.

482
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 3: It is so dangerous because, like, let me tell you something,

483
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 3: if somebody's knocking at my door, like you know, I'm

484
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:29,880
Speaker 3: going to be freaking out inside, and I have weapons.

485
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 3: You never know, you never know what's going to happen.

486
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 3: If somebody rammed my door, my instinct is going to

487
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 3: be to reach for my gun, you know what I mean.

488
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 3: And the minute I start reaching for that weapon, I'm

489
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 3: going to get shot. It's so dangerous. So this guy

490
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 3: showed such malice leading up to it and then he

491
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 3: ran them down. Why is he being charged as a juvenile.

492
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 3: He should be charged as an adult. Yeah, it's infuriating

493
00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:57,680
Speaker 3: to me.

494
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 2: Well, if you want to have you or fury raised.

495
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 2: During the second swatting incident, police arrived and the suspect

496
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:11,160
Speaker 2: he was literally outside the Niota's poem and was then

497
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 2: released to his father. Yeah, that's insane because especially what

498
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 2: you just laid out.

499
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 3: You know, my understanding is the police chief is like

500
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 3: his uncle.

501
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, his his uncle is the West police chief of Christopher.

502
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 4: But yeah, that seems that's the whole thing starting to

503
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:33,640
Speaker 4: feel very the whole.

504
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 3: Thing seems just to me. Now. It should be noted

505
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 3: that the police chief doesn't have any say so on

506
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 3: how he's charged. That's all up to the DA, right.

507
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 2: But and it stinks, Yeah, absolutely, And the uncle also

508
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 2: has come forth publicly and said that he paraphrasing basically

509
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 2: finds the whole thing deplorable. Does not condone any of this.

510
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 2: But the Kyota's family is conducting their own investigation, particularly

511
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 2: they want to understand the police response to prior incidents

512
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 2: involving the suspect. And I have a feeling that's going

513
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 2: to have a ton of play in this trial m

514
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 2: because I.

515
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 4: Wonder if do the families I wonder if the victims'

516
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 4: families can have any I don't know, any say so

517
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 4: or help to sway the direction of how he's how

518
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 4: he's charged to you get where I'm going or.

519
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know that the DA will take the

520
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 3: families wanting And honestly, I don't know if the family

521
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 3: has spoken about him being charged as a juvenile, but

522
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 3: I do know that they're conducting their own investigation. But

523
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 3: that part that they're investigating is to understand the police

524
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 3: response prior, so like letting all this happen. He keeps

525
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 3: swatting us, he's sending pizzas, we've got an ro he's

526
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 3: driving by the house, like they're not really doing anything

527
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 3: about it. I think that's what they're more concerned about it.

528
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 3: And I get it. I totally get it clearly. Yeah, yeah,

529
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 3: so that's what they're looking into.

530
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 2: This is true crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We talk true

531
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 2: crime all the time. Later in the show, we are

532
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 2: going to be discussing the Hulu doc Death and Apartment

533
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 2: six oh three, what happened to Ellen Greenberg? And that

534
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 2: is for this week's true crime and Chill. But for

535
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 2: now we're diving right into talkbox. Talkbox, let's go to

536
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 2: a talk back now.

537
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 3: Please fre French.

538
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 5: Hey, y'all, Jennifer from Texas. Sorry to ask, please don't

539
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 5: be mad.

540
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 6: But what is the best way to best to get

541
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 6: if you are a newbie?

542
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 2: Oh?

543
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 6: Thank you so much, love you guys, love all that

544
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 6: you do.

545
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:40,479
Speaker 7: Keep it up.

546
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 3: You're amazing, Thank you, good one. So she wants to

547
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 3: know the best way to investigate for beginners. Martie, do

548
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 3: you want to go first?

549
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 2: Sure, I'll give you my perspective. Also, my perspective, Jennifer

550
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 2: is do not apologize for such a great question?

551
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 3: Totally?

552
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was some who I had to really have

553
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 2: that beaten into my head to not apologize while opening

554
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 2: the door into a room. See, I guess so much

555
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 2: of what I do is makes it a little easier

556
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 2: as a producer, so because I have a reason to

557
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 2: call people. But I'll just start by saying what I do.

558
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 2: If we're digging into a new story, It'll usually start

559
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 2: with some story that catches my eye for whatever the

560
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 2: reason may be, and I'll gather the articles and then

561
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 2: start looking really for any and all details. So whether

562
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 2: it's so and so, it could be really any person

563
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 2: attached to the particular crime story. They went to this school,

564
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 2: they worked at a pizza place, they were into ballroom dancing,

565
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 2: whatever it is. So actually, maybe if you have if

566
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 2: you have a story that's local to you, you even

567
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 2: could go and ask people, Hey, did you know so

568
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 2: and so. Another thing you can do is to get

569
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 2: Foye's Freedom of Information Act, So that is you file paperwork,

570
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 2: and it really depends it's case by case on who

571
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 2: sort of holds the paperwork. But anything that is publicly

572
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 2: available is just that it is publicly available records. You

573
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 2: have to request it. It doesn't often go fast. Sometimes

574
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 2: you get the right person at the right time. But

575
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 2: those are the top things on my head.

576
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 3: Those are really good. So I actually give a workshop

577
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 3: on this specific subject at Crime cons Wow I didn't. Yeah,

578
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 3: yeah you didn't. Well I have it in a minute.

579
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 3: But yeah, so I kind of I can probably talk

580
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 3: about this as a whole segment actually, okay, But you know,

581
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 3: you start with a big picture. You start with a

582
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 3: big picture. You have a goal. Whatever your goal is.

583
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 3: Let's say somebody's harassing you online. Let's just say that, right,

584
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:57,959
Speaker 3: you want to know who it is. They're using an

585
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 3: an anonymous account, so you start with the goal. You're

586
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 3: trying to find out who owns this account, So that's

587
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 3: the goal. Then you you basically make a list your

588
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 3: knowans and your unknowns. Right, it's a simple two column

589
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 3: list what you already have, maybe dates, user names, links,

590
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,239
Speaker 3: things like that. You have to be very listen. I

591
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 3: take a very like serious approach to this stuff. Okay,

592
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 3: you have to be organized. Okay, so you start with

593
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 3: the big picture. That's number one Number two, establish like

594
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 3: a framework for searching. Begin with open source low tech.

595
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 3: You know, search Facebook, you know Google, use and use

596
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 3: learn how to use advanced search techniques on these sites,

597
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 3: like learn how to use qualifiers on Google. And then

598
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 3: and then you know, learn some of the tools like

599
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 3: the way back machine, you know, to look at what

600
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 3: a website looked like on this date right and how

601
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 3: it's changed and things like that. Learn about domain tools

602
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 3: like is and whatnot. But you really should learn is

603
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 3: about OCENT. That's O, S, I N T. In that

604
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 3: stance for open source intelligence, Courtney mentioned foyas and what

605
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 3: I'm talking about are the tools that let you search

606
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 3: the things that you want to search. So learn about OCENT.

607
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 3: I like to use the OCENT framework. You can just

608
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 3: google that and then it'll take you to a bunch

609
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 3: of different tools that you can look for things. And

610
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 3: then you know. The fourth thing, and probably the most

611
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 3: important is ethics and legal awareness. Only use publicly available data.

612
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,839
Speaker 3: Do not access private accounts, you know databases. Don't try

613
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 3: to hack people because if you if you are being harassed,

614
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 3: let's say, and you you hire a hacker, let's say,

615
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 3: to hack the account legally, you're really not gonna be

616
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 3: able to do anything about it, right, So make sure

617
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 3: you know you're you're ethical to don't if you find

618
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 3: out who it is, don't blast them on social media,

619
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 3: you know, things like this. Be very ethical with it.

620
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 3: And that's kind of the little skinny of it. I

621
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 3: guess that's fascinating. It's so funny as you both describe it.

622
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 3: It feels like each of the way you approach them

623
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 3: ties in with your personalities. Like you're a lot more

624
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 3: of like the internet searches and such, right. Courtney, on

625
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 3: the other hand, has more the interviewing the people. I

626
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 3: find it fascinating as well, and that's how we are

627
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 3: I think personally, Like I could never be a producer

628
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,800
Speaker 3: because I can't cold call people like I would freak

629
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 3: out socially like I am a social disaster. Courtney is

630
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 3: very graceful with people. I am like I can't talk

631
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 3: to people, very kind, you know, But I'm great with tech.

632
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,320
Speaker 3: Court Yeah, not, You're phenomenal with that.

633
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 4: So, like we should do some cold cases or something,

634
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,479
Speaker 4: because between these two we might be able to solve

635
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:51,280
Speaker 4: some things out.

636
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 2: There, but they are not always transferable. I mean even

637
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 2: literally in my own house with my software engineer husband.

638
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 2: He's a brilliant man who can fix all the cords

639
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 2: and the codes and would pay me money to order

640
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 2: a pizza because I make every phone call. Yes for

641
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 2: our family.

642
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 3: Yes I can. I have to go to the doctor,

643
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 3: and I cannot call her to make the appointment. I know,

644
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 3: I'm serious, you do it. It is horrible if I

645
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 3: had to, Okay, if I had to make if I

646
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:27,439
Speaker 3: had to call somebody to stay at hotel, I would

647
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 3: literally never leave Las Vegas. So I will never. I

648
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:31,399
Speaker 3: just can't. I can't.

649
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:31,839
Speaker 7: I just.

650
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,919
Speaker 4: Opposite, Like I get annoyed, like why is everything? Why

651
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 4: can't I pick up a phone and talk to somebody.

652
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 3: It's the stupidest thing ever. But but you know, use

653
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,359
Speaker 3: the main goal, basically, I'm gonna sum it up really quick,

654
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 3: is stay organized. Learn how to use these tools, learn

655
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 3: how to use Googles, Google sheets, google docs, things like that.

656
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:56,800
Speaker 3: Please take the free Google classes on how like taha,

657
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 3: I you know I have documents on everything we got

658
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 3: about organized. I've never met anyone like this. Being organized

659
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 3: electronically is a skill. Yeah, and you have to you

660
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:09,760
Speaker 3: have to say organized and that would be my advice. Anyway,

661
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 3: I love it. That's what's going on.

662
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:17,240
Speaker 2: Thank you, Jennifer, Jennifer Tack, Thank you go to another one.

663
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 8: Hello, ladies. I chose to leave an old school message,

664
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 8: but I just wanted to say thank you very very

665
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,399
Speaker 8: much for putting Belshook on the show. I'm at few

666
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 8: episodes behind. I listened in the morning since I work

667
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 8: at night to the I listened to the podcast and

668
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 8: that was extremely giving to me in a way that

669
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 8: I can't even explain. As a childhood trauma survivor, I've

670
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 8: lost both my parents before the age of thirty two

671
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 8: some other adult trauma. Going on chalk therapy is amazing

672
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 8: for me, but I continue to say I probably need

673
00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 8: a lobotomy to get myself a regular related and now

674
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 8: I'm thinking that what I probably need is equine therapy.

675
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 8: So that was wonderful. I'm looking into that putting it

676
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 8: on my docket and appreciate what you guys do. Thanks

677
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 8: for doing.

678
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 2: What you do. Wow.

679
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 3: So oh that makes me feel so good. I was

680
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,360
Speaker 3: that wasn't that I was sick? Remember I had the flu. Yeah,

681
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 3: I was sick. I missed this.

682
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 4: Well, tell me lucky it's on the podcast because you

683
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 4: can go back and listen. But I'll give you a

684
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 4: quick summary because I first of all, I'm going to

685
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 4: let Courtney tell a little bit about it. But I

686
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 4: had to talk to Belle early on and I told

687
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 4: Courtney this. I was like, I don't know, is this

688
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:43,759
Speaker 4: really going to do anything. The more I talked to

689
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:48,839
Speaker 4: her about the kind of therapy that basically, horses are

690
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 4: so intuitive and they pick up on so much of

691
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 4: human emotions that there were little she told at least

692
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 4: three different stories, but little things where she didn't know

693
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 4: in advance, that like someone had to injure on their finger,

694
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 4: injury on their finger, but the horse would go over

695
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:06,879
Speaker 4: and sort of lick on that finger area. Or there

696
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,399
Speaker 4: was a couple that came that there was some infidelity

697
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:13,319
Speaker 4: happening and the horses interacted in a way that kind

698
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 4: of portrayed infidelity or did some unusual behavior.

699
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,879
Speaker 2: I remember she used the phrase boy parts. She said

700
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 2: they were acting almost like a little MANAGATOI the horses

701
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 2: and the yeah, like a little play. It was pretty sick.

702
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 2: It was fascinated.

703
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 4: It's fascinating, but it's really But Courtney fill her.

704
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 3: In on more of like the therapy and what works

705
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 3: best about it.

706
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 2: So Belle shook. She has been a I went to

707
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 2: high school with her and we have reconnected, right, said

708
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 2: that we reconnected at my reunion or ED will be

709
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 2: looking into if I actually went to my reunion.

710
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:50,760
Speaker 3: She was really.

711
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 2: So Belle. She's been a therapist for twenty five years

712
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,399
Speaker 2: or whatever it is, and then fell in and has

713
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 2: really developed this entire theory of equine therapy. The equine

714
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 2: therapy has been around for quite a bit, but she

715
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 2: has a particular way that she does it, and like

716
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:18,759
Speaker 2: Taha mentioned it, it goes a lot to regulating or

717
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 2: bringing your body back down once. If talk therapy is

718
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 2: doing nothing for you, if trauma is being held in you,

719
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,359
Speaker 2: if you know sexual assault victims or you know, if

720
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 2: there is a trauma sort of stuck in your body,

721
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:38,840
Speaker 2: this can help it unleash. And then yeah, and something

722
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 2: that Bell which I thought was so interesting that she

723
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 2: described was you know, take a little doggie like what

724
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 2: you will have in the studio and you know sometimes

725
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 2: your heart to heart and tendness and you know the

726
00:40:53,120 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 2: oxytocin and all that. Well, given the size of a horse, yeah,

727
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 2: so so so much bigger that sort of the vibrations

728
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 2: she describes it better, but that everything comes down a

729
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 2: little bit if you're with a regulated being while they

730
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:16,360
Speaker 2: have that force.

731
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 3: So I'll have to check it out. I don't download

732
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 3: it after we're done and listen to it tonight.

733
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 4: It's it's incredible and it probably doesn't hurt that she's

734
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:25,240
Speaker 4: in a beautiful, serene area.

735
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 3: So all of those things combined and the horses like it.

736
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 3: Just I found it.

737
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,400
Speaker 4: She is in Sedona. When are we going we accept

738
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 4: funny enough? That was the other topic, Like Stephanie's like,

739
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 4: we need to figure out a way.

740
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 3: We need to figure out can we do a remote show?

741
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 3: That would be so fun do a remote show? I know,

742
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 3: I know, I know. The sad part is she did

743
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 3: say that not sad part.

744
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 4: But the therapy is best when it's an an individual,

745
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 4: like a one on one kind of a thing. Because

746
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 4: I thought, oh, let's all have a big group therapy.

747
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 4: It doesn't really work as well.

748
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 3: Well that maybe that might be overwhelming for the horse too,

749
00:41:58,239 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 3: write true.

750
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:05,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's equine guidance. It's in Arizona's Sedona Verde Valley.

751
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 2: It is gorgeous, beyond gorgeous. Yeah, and it.

752
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:13,840
Speaker 3: Does seem like talking this morning about with Indy about

753
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 3: going to Sedona because she's never seen a thunderstorm and

754
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 3: I was like, let's go to Sedona. And now, you guys,

755
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 3: it's meant to be.

756
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 2: I guess it is.

757
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:23,919
Speaker 4: Yeah, she would love to have you there and listen

758
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,399
Speaker 4: to that, and she said, we're welcome to commation there,

759
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 4: but you know, I think it'll be something we would

760
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 4: love to do.

761
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 3: But yeah, thank you, thank you so much for that

762
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 3: talkback and I'm so glad that it you know, that

763
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,399
Speaker 3: you liked it and that you got something from it. Yeah,

764
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 3: check it out. Yeah, absolutely, thank you. I think we

765
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 3: got another one.

766
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 9: Okay, Hi, Sarah from Michigan. I just wanted to compliment

767
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 9: I'm thinking the producers of the show because a while back,

768
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,800
Speaker 9: someone's sunning a talkback about Talkback Tuesday and kind.

769
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 7: Of critiqued it.

770
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 9: And I just have to say, you guys have taken

771
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 9: that and run with it. I just heard Taha tell

772
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:05,760
Speaker 9: Sam to cue up a video from a file name.

773
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,360
Speaker 7: And that's just that's the next level. You guys have

774
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 7: really perfected this.

775
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:14,280
Speaker 3: You know, it's so funny because like wheat, you guys,

776
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 3: when we first started, we were like shaking, I mean

777
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 3: live radio. What the heck are you? Are you kidding me?

778
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 2: I din't you live?

779
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 3: And we were like, I was like almost throwing up,

780
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:28,319
Speaker 3: and Courtney would always have to calm me down right,

781
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,759
Speaker 3: like you'd be like, listen, you're gonna be fine. I

782
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 3: think we've all kind of gotten better.

783
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:38,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, well from the terra I'll speak for myself. I mean,

784
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 2: I was it was like having jet fuel in my veins.

785
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:47,800
Speaker 2: I was, Oh, I was definitely nervous.

786
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 3: Was more afraid of this than being filmed for by

787
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 3: Netflix because you live shows. I was more afraid of this.

788
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 4: Wow, well you wouldn't know it now you guys have

789
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 4: been the whole team.

790
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 3: Now, I never say that, Adam, I know right.

791
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 4: Well, you know, no, No, I love it. That's what

792
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:11,399
Speaker 4: keeps the energy going. That's the best part.

793
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 3: But no, I address up.

794
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:14,919
Speaker 4: I do have to say, like we take a lot

795
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 4: of the talkbacks and the feedback from everyone, and we

796
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 4: really do listen to what people are saying. And that

797
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 4: was something I think, you know, we were in the beginning,

798
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 4: We're like, how do we get sort of more talkbacks?

799
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 4: And I think by focusing on topics, we get more

800
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:28,920
Speaker 4: of what we're looking for.

801
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 3: So so the audience is helping us. It's a win win.

802
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 3: Well and well, we wanted the show to be really

803
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 3: audience driven, you know what I mean, Like we didn't

804
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 3: want to just get up and preach to people, right,

805
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 3: you know exactly who wants that, right, So if we

806
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 3: get feedback, we take it seriously and we want and

807
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:49,359
Speaker 3: we want the listener participation we want that's my favorite people.

808
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,239
Speaker 3: We're saying listener like, this is the community not right.

809
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 3: We want community participation. We want you know, when we

810
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 3: see each other maybe at crime con or whatever, we

811
00:44:58,239 --> 00:44:59,839
Speaker 3: want to be able to go have a drink and

812
00:44:59,880 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 3: be totally chill and hang out with everybody. And you

813
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 3: know what I mean, like being just regular people and

814
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:06,759
Speaker 3: when you get up and preach to people, you s

815
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 3: don't have that camaraderie. Before I had an espresso, I'm

816
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,399
Speaker 3: a little oh, I love it. I love it.

817
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:16,360
Speaker 2: And Ta, by the way, I think the phrase you

818
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:19,720
Speaker 2: were reaching for, which my best friend told me because

819
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 2: I was saying I'm so nervous, I'm so nervous, and

820
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 2: it was try and flip your mind a little bit

821
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 2: from nervous to excited. I'm exciting, changer, stick around. We

822
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 2: have a lot more coming up. At the top of

823
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 2: the hour, we are going to tell you about a

824
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 2: beloved teacher and what is going on. Detectives are a

825
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:41,879
Speaker 2: little bit stunned. Don't forget to call eight A eight

826
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 2: three one Crime True Crime Tonight.

827
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:56,920
Speaker 3: This is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk

828
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 3: true crime all the time. I'm crime analyst and OS investigator. Ooh,

829
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 3: body movin. We're here with producer and investigator Courtney Armstrong.

830
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 3: Don't forget if you miss any part of tonight's show,

831
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 3: no sweat, you can always catch the podcast. We also

832
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:12,799
Speaker 3: want to hear from you. Give us a call at

833
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 3: eighty to eight thirty one Crime, or get with us

834
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 3: on our socials at True Crime Tonight's show on TikTok

835
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:22,360
Speaker 3: or Instagram and True Crime Tonight on Facebook. Later in

836
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 3: the show, we're going to be discussing finally right this

837
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 3: Hulu documentary Death and Apartment six' oh, Three what happened

838
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:31,360
Speaker 3: To Ellen greenberg for this Week's True crime And chilseale

839
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 3: sty tuned for, That but now we have an update

840
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 3: On Sonia Massy.

841
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:40,440
Speaker 2: Courtney, yeah the trial is just beginning and Former Sagamun

842
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 2: County Deputy Sean grayson has been charged with first degree

843
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:47,800
Speaker 2: murder and this is in the fatal shooting Of sonia Massy.

844
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:53,920
Speaker 2: So trial started. Today thirty six year Old sonya was

845
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 2: a black. Woman she was a single, mother and she

846
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:01,359
Speaker 2: was shot and killed in her home In springfield back

847
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:04,880
Speaker 2: In july of twenty twenty. Four she'd called nine one

848
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 2: one to report a possible intruder and that is When Sean,

849
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 2: grayson one of the deputies who responded the incident happened

850
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:19,319
Speaker 2: where he's accused of murdering her during a. Confrontation he

851
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:26,360
Speaker 2: alleges that That sonia lifted a pot of boiling water

852
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 2: and that made him fear for his, Safety so that

853
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 2: is what's he's. Saying the trial was actually. Moved it

854
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:38,800
Speaker 2: started In peoria after being moved From, Springfield, illinois because

855
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:40,839
Speaker 2: there was so much media coverage and.

856
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:44,319
Speaker 3: Publicity, well there was this body cam footage that came

857
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 3: out right after she was, murdered, right and it was. Horrifying,

858
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 3: YEAH i, mean it really lit people up because here she,

859
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 3: is she called for, help, right help arrives and they kill.

860
00:47:55,520 --> 00:48:00,839
Speaker 3: Her they kill, her and there was a massive outcry of,

861
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:03,840
Speaker 3: injustice you, know that was, done so it received a

862
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 3: lot of media, attention and so they had to move.

863
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 3: It they had to move. It, yeah, yeah that makes.

864
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:13,320
Speaker 2: Sense, Yeah and prosecutors started. Strong they opened their case

865
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 2: and just Stated Sean grayson Shot Sonia massy with no lawful,

866
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 2: justification standing in her own. Kitchen and even as you,

867
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:25,400
Speaker 2: said body the worst part you call for help and

868
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 2: you end up dead no matter what the, circumstances things

869
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:31,640
Speaker 2: went very, awry right and.

870
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 4: To your point when you see that body cam, footage

871
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 4: LIKE i, mean you, Know i'm not a police, officer

872
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 4: SO i don't, know but it looked like the, proximity you,

873
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:42,600
Speaker 4: know even that she had boiling water and where he,

874
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:43,839
Speaker 4: was where he.

875
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 3: Was he was standing so far away from, her for.

876
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 3: Away even if she did throw a pot of boiling

877
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:52,400
Speaker 3: water at, him which, whatever let's just say she was

878
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 3: h let's just live in a world where she. WAS

879
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:57,959
Speaker 3: i don't even think it would have touched. Him, No,

880
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 3: yeah that's that's is that reason to use lethal force

881
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 3: against a human being? Anyway WHAT i, mean obviously not

882
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:11,720
Speaker 3: because this trial is. Happening most cops have this qualified

883
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 3: immunity and are never you, know charged with first degree.

884
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 3: Murder this is this is a kind of unique circumstance

885
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 3: where it's actually. Happening oh it's, yeah.

886
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 2: Right and the bodycam footage it came From Deputy farley

887
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 2: who is also at the, scene and that is what

888
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:34,120
Speaker 2: you guys are referring to the footage that Shows sonya

889
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:39,680
Speaker 2: near the pot of boiling. Water, Well Deputy farley testified

890
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:43,720
Speaker 2: that it Was grayson the one who was on. Trial

891
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:48,319
Speaker 2: it Was grayson's actions and Not sonia's that heighten the,

892
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 2: tension and that he felt That sonia never posed a

893
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:52,799
Speaker 2: threat during that.

894
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 3: Encounter, wow good for. Him, yeah you know the guts

895
00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:00,160
Speaker 3: that that takes for this this cop to go against his.

896
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:03,720
Speaker 3: Partner yeah, right, YEAH i mean he's probably getting crap

897
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:08,239
Speaker 3: from his. Spellow well maybe not because not. Listen, NO

898
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:09,240
Speaker 3: i mean.

899
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 2: He's doing what what in His. LISTEN i say this

900
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 2: every time, exhaustively but the trial has not finished. It

901
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:19,360
Speaker 2: we have not heard both. Sides but he is telling

902
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:23,879
Speaker 2: what he believes is the Absolute that.

903
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 4: Takes a lot of, guts, Right but, YEAH i can

904
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:28,600
Speaker 4: see where body's. Going oftentimes you think the police all

905
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:31,360
Speaker 4: band together and like you the blue, line you don't cross, it,

906
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:34,319
Speaker 4: Right but on the flip, side and you, know there

907
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 4: are a lot of the occasionally there's a bad apple

908
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 4: in the, bunch and they do have to, Say, okay

909
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 4: we're going to point this one out and make sure

910
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 4: that this doesn't happen moving.

911
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 2: Forward, yeah and it's it's incredibly. Sad grayson was Threatening

912
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 2: sonia and ordering her to put down the pot of

913
00:50:56,640 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 2: water before he then fired three. Shots and after the,

914
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:07,480
Speaker 2: shooting he discouraged his partner from providing medical. Aids so,

915
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 2: yes and he, said well She sonia was already fatally

916
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 2: wounded from a. Headshot BUT i, mean how do you

917
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 2: discourage someone from providing that to? Anyone?

918
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 4: Right that part doesn't make any sense at, All like

919
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:26,840
Speaker 4: if there is a side of you that feels remorse

920
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:29,400
Speaker 4: for what you've, done let me try to. Help and so,

921
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:33,080
Speaker 4: yeah that's another disturbing piece to all of.

922
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:37,239
Speaker 3: This you know what another's disturbing. Pieces let me if

923
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:39,759
Speaker 3: you watch the full body cam, footage she opens the

924
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:42,239
Speaker 3: door and she, says please don't hurt, me like she's

925
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 3: always she calls because she thinks there's an. Intruder, okay

926
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 3: and she opens the door and she says she's already

927
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:54,359
Speaker 3: she's already scared in you, Know i'm a white. WOMAN

928
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 3: i don't know what that's, like you know WHAT i?

929
00:51:56,680 --> 00:52:00,720
Speaker 3: MEAN i JUST i. Don't and so she's already scared

930
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 3: that she's a black. Woman there's the tensions in this

931
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 3: country are you, know? Insane and she's like please do

932
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 3: she pled with, Him please don't hurt, Me please don't hurt,

933
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:12,239
Speaker 3: me and she Gets it's just it's, heartbreaking, guys it's.

934
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:15,520
Speaker 3: Heartbreaking this is the Case I've i've had in my

935
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:16,279
Speaker 3: heart for a hot.

936
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 4: Minute And i'm always thankful for the bodycam. Footage like

937
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 4: if that didn't, exist, now what would have been.

938
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:26,799
Speaker 3: Right what would have? Happened it would have been their, word, right,

939
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 3: right she pulled out a knife for, something you, know

940
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 3: who knows what it would who? Knows who?

941
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 2: Knows and prosecutors did highlight that, fact, haha Because grayson

942
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 2: failed to activate his own body cam until after the shooting.

943
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:44,400
Speaker 2: Occurred so that raised a whole bunch of questions about.

944
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 2: Transparency oh that's, interesting and you know, what you know

945
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:49,759
Speaker 2: what really gets under my?

946
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:53,920
Speaker 3: Skin in court, today all, right they were showing the

947
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 3: body cam footage and this, guy this, cop this murderer is.

948
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 3: Yawning oh, my he's sitting in court yawning like he

949
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 3: can't be. Bothered, right this is so. Wow he's not

950
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 3: emblematic of all. Cops by the, WAY i don't want

951
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:14,840
Speaker 3: anybody impression this is a bad, apple right of, course

952
00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 3: AM i in my? Opinion?

953
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:21,640
Speaker 2: Right and, uh since the trial has not, completed he's

954
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:25,359
Speaker 2: an alleged murder, correct he is absolutely not convicted by.

955
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:26,120
Speaker 4: WELL.

956
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 3: I saw him do.

957
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:34,440
Speaker 2: It it is innocent until just saying technically you're, right,

958
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:39,120
Speaker 2: yes but that's. Abhorrent, YEAH i MEAN i.

959
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:43,480
Speaker 4: Don't we definitely need to keep following this, one so we. Will,

960
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:44,640
Speaker 4: yeah we definitely.

961
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:44,879
Speaker 7: Will.

962
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:48,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, Absolutely, well this is true crime. Tonight we'd love

963
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:52,160
Speaker 2: to hear your thoughts on this case that's happening out

964
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:55,839
Speaker 2: Of Sagomun. County we're at eight of eight three one

965
00:53:56,040 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 2: crime and. Body why don't you actually take us into

966
00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:02,680
Speaker 2: our next? Headline?

967
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:05,200
Speaker 3: YEAH i READ i found this one. Today it's really.

968
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:09,600
Speaker 3: Sad So Brandon, ashley he has been arrested for the

969
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:13,640
Speaker 3: murder of his, Wife Chelsea, spillers after she was found

970
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:17,279
Speaker 3: dead from blunt force trauma in Their texas home In, Alvorado.

971
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:20,719
Speaker 3: Texas So. Chelsea she's thirty three years. Old she's a

972
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 3: high school biology and chemistry. Teacher she was found dead

973
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 3: in her home On october, Eighteenth so just a couple

974
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 3: of days, ago like four days, AGO i Think. Saturday her,

975
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:33,120
Speaker 3: husband his name Is Brandon, ashley and he was arrested

976
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:36,719
Speaker 3: two days, later over one hundred and fifty miles away

977
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:40,600
Speaker 3: after acting erradically and is now facing a murder. Charge

978
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:44,000
Speaker 3: she was found dead at Home, saturday, Yep, Saturday october.

979
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:47,440
Speaker 3: Eighteenth she had blunt force trauma as a suspected cause of.

980
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:51,040
Speaker 3: Death authorities initially classified this case as an unexplained, death

981
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:55,080
Speaker 3: but soon issued a murder warrant for her. Husband brandon

982
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:59,319
Speaker 3: was Arrested monday the twentieth In, Badias, texas after trespassing

983
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 3: and acting ira on private. Property they. Report witnesses were

984
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 3: reporting that he was shirtless and he was knocking on

985
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:08,160
Speaker 3: doors asking for clothing and said that he was avoiding

986
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:09,399
Speaker 3: a highway into too many.

987
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:11,440
Speaker 2: Cops oh, Dear, like what.

988
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:14,160
Speaker 3: A, dummy, Right i'm avoiding the highway too many? Cops

989
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:16,440
Speaker 3: can you give me a? Shirt? Like can you imagine

990
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 3: opening your door to?

991
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 2: This it's it's horrible and without knowing, anything, right you, know,

992
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:26,440
Speaker 2: right whether it's a mental break or you, know it.

993
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 3: Sounds like some kind of mental, break because there there

994
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:31,439
Speaker 3: was a thing that led up to all this. Too

995
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:35,680
Speaker 3: so after his, arrest he allegedly told police he had

996
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:41,040
Speaker 3: a hidden firearm, nearby and deputies later recovered a, revolver

997
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:42,760
Speaker 3: so he was telling the. Truth he had a weapon.

998
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:47,759
Speaker 3: Nearby he's currently being held In Grimes county waiting extradition

999
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:50,200
Speaker 3: because again he was one hundred fty miles away to

1000
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:54,760
Speaker 3: face murder chargers In Johnson. County The Alvarado Police department

1001
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 3: has Confirmed brandon is the main suspect and that the

1002
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:04,840
Speaker 3: investigation is. Ongoing here's some background on The, okay it's

1003
00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:08,000
Speaker 3: So october, sixteenth two days before the, Murder so this

1004
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:11,719
Speaker 3: would be What, Thursday, Thursday actober, sixteenth two days before the,

1005
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:14,880
Speaker 3: murder police responded to a domestic disturbance at their home

1006
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:18,440
Speaker 3: Involving brandon holding a gun to his. Head, okay so

1007
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:21,280
Speaker 3: neighbors here like a ruckus and they call the. Cops

1008
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:25,160
Speaker 3: the cops come And brandon is acting erratic and he

1009
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:28,200
Speaker 3: has a gun to his. Head he was arrested at

1010
00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:32,800
Speaker 3: that time for interference with official duties during that, incident

1011
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 3: so something must have gone down showed up and then the, Wife,

1012
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:42,439
Speaker 3: chelsea the victim posted his bond and he got. Out.

1013
00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:46,239
Speaker 3: Okay so that Was thursday the, Sixteenth and just as a,

1014
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:49,800
Speaker 3: Reminder chelsea's the victim. Here she was a well beloved

1015
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:53,279
Speaker 3: biology chemistry teacher At Alvarado High school and she was

1016
00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:56,880
Speaker 3: deeply connected to her. Students the school district has released

1017
00:56:56,880 --> 00:56:59,719
Speaker 3: a statement describing her as a dedicated educator who loved her.

1018
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:05,600
Speaker 3: School the students at at the school told AN nbc

1019
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:10,160
Speaker 3: AFFILIATE NBC dfw that she was the light of my.

1020
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:10,520
Speaker 2: Day.

1021
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:14,600
Speaker 3: OH i would go to her class every class. PERIOD

1022
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:17,200
Speaker 3: i would go to see. Her Ava, kelly who's a,

1023
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:21,280
Speaker 3: junior told the OUTLET i could talk to, her she

1024
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:24,520
Speaker 3: would talk to, me and then another. STUDENT i feel

1025
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 3: like she's. GONE i feel like even though she's, gone

1026
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:31,760
Speaker 3: she lives. On this is former Student Mikaela, norris and

1027
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:34,280
Speaker 3: she Told fox Four news she lives on through all

1028
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:38,600
Speaker 3: of her students she. Touched Grimes county authorities became involved

1029
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:40,920
Speaker 3: After brendan was reported acting strangely LIKE i, said he

1030
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:44,760
Speaker 3: was knocking on people's. Doors, yeah it's his odd. Behavior

1031
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:46,840
Speaker 3: and comments during all, this you, know the encounter with

1032
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 3: police raise concerns about his mental state and the timeline

1033
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 3: between the domestic stervance In brandan's eventual arrests bands four.

1034
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:55,840
Speaker 3: Days so in, that you, know in the two days

1035
00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:57,760
Speaker 3: leading up to the, murder in the two days, following

1036
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:01,440
Speaker 3: he obviously is going through some on a mental, breakdown.

1037
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:06,080
Speaker 2: Right and, CERTAINLY i, mean, yeah it sounds like. It

1038
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:10,000
Speaker 2: not knowing anything, else but, Boy, chelsea this what a.

1039
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:13,880
Speaker 2: Waste it sounds like that this woman's life was cut

1040
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:15,560
Speaker 2: thirty three years.

1041
00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:18,919
Speaker 3: Old thirty three, yeah thuty three years. Old so they

1042
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:21,960
Speaker 3: go to, that they go so Sun, Saturday october, eighteenth

1043
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:24,120
Speaker 3: that you, know they go because the cops, come he's

1044
00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:25,960
Speaker 3: holding the gun to his. Head he gets just you,

1045
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:29,800
Speaker 3: know he gets, Arrested he gets Released. Saturday they find

1046
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:34,240
Speaker 3: the body the, Eighteenth they start, looking they start you,

1047
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:37,600
Speaker 3: know finding things. Out they issue a warrant for the husband's,

1048
00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:43,160
Speaker 3: arrest but he's gone Off, Sunday october, nineteenth they start

1049
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:47,440
Speaker 3: reporting sightings of, him, right, wow start reporting sightings of,

1050
00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:49,240
Speaker 3: him and he's arrested on The twentieth's a good job

1051
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:51,680
Speaker 3: to the. Cops they got. Him you know what's reminded

1052
00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:54,240
Speaker 3: me Of this kind of reminded me a little tiny

1053
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:57,680
Speaker 3: bit Of Ellen. GREENBERG i was just thinking, that, yeah

1054
00:58:57,720 --> 00:58:59,080
Speaker 3: and we're going to get into this in the next.

1055
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:01,680
Speaker 3: Segments remind her of going to be doing True kremenchild

1056
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:03,240
Speaker 3: in the next. SEGMENT i think it's the next, segment

1057
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:05,880
Speaker 3: but you, KNOW i Want we were watching the documentary

1058
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:09,360
Speaker 3: and her students are in the documentary and they're talking,

1059
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:13,920
Speaker 3: about you, know how this affected. Them her death affected

1060
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:16,440
Speaker 3: them because they she was very, beloved just just Like,

1061
00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:19,080
Speaker 3: chelsea just like and it made me when we were

1062
00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:20,600
Speaker 3: when we were doing the, STORY i was, LIKE i

1063
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:22,520
Speaker 3: really want to talk about what the students were saying

1064
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:25,560
Speaker 3: because it reminded me so much Of Ellen greenberg in

1065
00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:28,080
Speaker 3: the sense that the students were the ripple effect that

1066
00:59:28,120 --> 00:59:29,120
Speaker 3: we always tell right.

1067
00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:35,280
Speaker 2: Become, Kids AND i, think how important you, know all of,

1068
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:37,120
Speaker 2: us if we're, lucky have that one.

1069
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:40,160
Speaker 3: Teacher mine was my band, Teacher Bob hasty if you're,

1070
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:43,680
Speaker 3: listening love, you, dude my band. TEACHER i STILL i, mean,

1071
00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:49,040
Speaker 3: yeah he was. Great how about You? Taha oh, GOSH

1072
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:49,760
Speaker 3: i have to go way.

1073
00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:54,480
Speaker 4: BACK i think it was a biology teacher that really

1074
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:57,200
Speaker 4: like helped me along the. WAY i was struggling with the,

1075
00:59:57,240 --> 01:00:00,280
Speaker 4: class and he took a lot of separate time done

1076
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:02,959
Speaker 4: his last name it was Ed. Greenberg it was Mister

1077
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:07,160
Speaker 4: greenberg or. Something but, anyway are you. Serious, yeah but.

1078
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:07,680
Speaker 3: He took a lot Of.

1079
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:08,560
Speaker 2: Greenberg.

1080
01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:10,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah and he took a lot of time to

1081
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:13,920
Speaker 4: help me with everything BECAUSE i was struggling so. Much

1082
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:15,640
Speaker 4: but it was like outside of school hours and he

1083
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:17,240
Speaker 4: was just So but, yeah sometimes the.

1084
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:21,280
Speaker 2: Teachers teachers are the best and the time and compassion

1085
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:24,959
Speaker 2: and capacity for. Listening all, right Sam, ADAM i did

1086
01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:27,919
Speaker 2: tell YOU i had a premonition apparently that there would

1087
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:28,760
Speaker 2: be a quiz and here it.

1088
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 3: Is, OH i don't like to tache of. This did

1089
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:35,240
Speaker 3: you guys have a teacher that made an impact on? You, okay? Good,

1090
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:36,160
Speaker 3: yeah me scared over.

1091
01:00:36,200 --> 01:00:42,520
Speaker 10: Here, YEAH i had my uh trumpet lesson teacher in high.

1092
01:00:42,520 --> 01:00:45,680
Speaker 10: SCHOOL i had a private lesson teacher and, uh you

1093
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:48,000
Speaker 10: just like got me REALLY i didn't care about. SCHOOL

1094
01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:50,000
Speaker 10: i was like slacking off and, stuff and he got

1095
01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:53,080
Speaker 10: me really focused and like just, UH i don't, know

1096
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:55,680
Speaker 10: just taught me how to learn well and be passionate

1097
01:00:55,680 --> 01:01:00,760
Speaker 10: about about learning and devoting myself to, something So steve Fort, Worth,

1098
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:02,160
Speaker 10: Texas Greg.

1099
01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:07,000
Speaker 11: Sam, Okay i'll try to make this. QUICK i had

1100
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:11,600
Speaker 11: Someone Brian, smith who taught like history and the same

1101
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:13,720
Speaker 11: THING i did not care about, school AND i was just,

1102
01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:17,080
Speaker 11: LIKE i liked him because he just made me feel

1103
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:20,160
Speaker 11: good about whatever INTERESTS i had outside of school and

1104
01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:22,840
Speaker 11: just made school just a lot easier and.

1105
01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:25,920
Speaker 3: Bearable, Oh, courtney you're not off the. Hook when we come,

1106
01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:28,880
Speaker 3: Back i'm going to hear. Yours, Yeah and we're also

1107
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:31,680
Speaker 3: going to be discussing The hulu Doc death And apartment

1108
01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:33,760
Speaker 3: six o, three what happened To Ellen greenberg for this

1109
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:35,760
Speaker 3: Week's True crime And chill AND i hear we have

1110
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:37,680
Speaker 3: some talk backs with your opinion on the. Show keep

1111
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:38,800
Speaker 3: it right here At Graving.

1112
01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:52,120
Speaker 2: That welcome back To True crime tonight On, iHeartRadio where

1113
01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:56,400
Speaker 2: we talked true crime all the. Time I'm Courtney. Armstrong

1114
01:01:56,560 --> 01:01:59,760
Speaker 2: i'm here with crime, analysts the brilliant and Beautiful Body.

1115
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:02,320
Speaker 2: Moved don't forget if you have missed any part of

1116
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:05,680
Speaker 2: the show, whatsoever you can always catch the podcast and

1117
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:07,800
Speaker 2: we want to hear from. You give us a. Call

1118
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:10,160
Speaker 2: we're at eight to eighty three to One crime or

1119
01:02:10,200 --> 01:02:12,520
Speaker 2: you can get with us on. Socials we are At

1120
01:02:12,560 --> 01:02:16,200
Speaker 2: True Crime tonight's show on TikTok And, instagram as well

1121
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:19,520
Speaker 2: As True Crime tonight On. Facebook and if you want to,

1122
01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:22,120
Speaker 2: call if you have been Following True crime and chill

1123
01:02:22,680 --> 01:02:25,440
Speaker 2: and watch death And apartment six oh, three what happened

1124
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:28,800
Speaker 2: To Ellen? Greenberg this is a double ask to give

1125
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:34,640
Speaker 2: us a call and join our. Conversation so, body do

1126
01:02:34,680 --> 01:02:36,720
Speaker 2: you want to fill us in on the overview of

1127
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:39,800
Speaker 2: the case for anyone who needs that Refresher.

1128
01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:42,920
Speaker 3: Yeah i'll see. That so despite a recent legal settlement

1129
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 3: requiring requiring a fresh overview of the case and review

1130
01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:51,440
Speaker 3: from The Medical examiner's office In, philadelphia they have reaffirmed

1131
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:58,200
Speaker 3: their controversial ruling That Ellen greenberg's twenty eleven, death despite

1132
01:02:58,360 --> 01:03:02,520
Speaker 3: twenty stab, wounds ten to the front and ten to the,

1133
01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:07,320
Speaker 3: back was a. Suicide ellen she was a twenty seven

1134
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:10,880
Speaker 3: year old. Teacher she was originally believed to be a

1135
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:16,560
Speaker 3: homicide victim initially when this first, happened but her cause

1136
01:03:16,600 --> 01:03:20,520
Speaker 3: of death was changed after police met privately with the,

1137
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:27,160
Speaker 3: pathologists prompting a fourteen year campaign by her parents to

1138
01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:31,200
Speaker 3: challenge the. Determination The october twenty Twenty i'm. Sorry The

1139
01:03:31,280 --> 01:03:34,560
Speaker 3: october twenty five, decision which just happened like last, WEEK

1140
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:39,320
Speaker 3: i think to uphold the suicide ruling has devastated her,

1141
01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:43,480
Speaker 3: family who say critical evidence has been, overlooked and they

1142
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:47,800
Speaker 3: vow to continue to seek justice after fourteen years of.

1143
01:03:47,960 --> 01:03:56,760
Speaker 3: Fighting but how, yeah, yeah you, KNOW i what do you?

1144
01:03:56,800 --> 01:03:58,880
Speaker 3: Do you know WHAT i? Mean, like what do you

1145
01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:02,919
Speaker 3: these poor parents that they are basically trying to fight

1146
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:06,800
Speaker 3: for their daughter's dignity right at this? Point like she'd

1147
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:08,720
Speaker 3: never wanted to, Leave she didn't want to leave the.

1148
01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:15,200
Speaker 3: Earth she wasn't like, suicidal she didn't have suicidal. Ideation you,

1149
01:04:15,240 --> 01:04:19,480
Speaker 3: know she was their only, child, Right and you, KNOW

1150
01:04:20,400 --> 01:04:24,040
Speaker 3: i can't imagine that they want to live in a

1151
01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:29,560
Speaker 3: world where their only child can't talk to, them, Right

1152
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:33,760
Speaker 3: like you, know you're you can't you can't fathom the

1153
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:39,400
Speaker 3: possibility that your only, child who you're very close, with

1154
01:04:39,520 --> 01:04:42,480
Speaker 3: by the, way can't talk to you about what's going

1155
01:04:42,480 --> 01:04:45,120
Speaker 3: on in their. Life there's no way that she killed.

1156
01:04:45,120 --> 01:04:49,800
Speaker 3: Herself BUT i think it's worth mentioning that everyone who commits,

1157
01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:52,919
Speaker 3: suicide well not, everyone but the vast majority of people

1158
01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:56,520
Speaker 3: who commit suicide are the happiest. People right on the,

1159
01:04:56,600 --> 01:04:59,320
Speaker 3: outwardly it's always a, shock oh the.

1160
01:04:59,440 --> 01:05:04,800
Speaker 4: Hour what you're, Saying, yes it's a surprise too often

1161
01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:05,880
Speaker 4: because if it wasn't.

1162
01:05:05,720 --> 01:05:10,000
Speaker 3: A surprise, oftentimes because if it wasn't a, surprise it

1163
01:05:10,040 --> 01:05:13,720
Speaker 3: wouldn't be so, shocking right, Right it's just it's very,

1164
01:05:13,840 --> 01:05:17,160
Speaker 3: very very very. Sad BUT i understand that we are

1165
01:05:17,200 --> 01:05:19,160
Speaker 3: going to start true crime and chill and we have

1166
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:21,320
Speaker 3: a talk. Back let's do. It let's start the talk.

1167
01:05:21,320 --> 01:05:24,920
Speaker 12: Back, hi this Is marissa From. MARYLAND i had left

1168
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:28,880
Speaker 12: a message about hypermobility the other day with regards To

1169
01:05:28,960 --> 01:05:32,920
Speaker 12: Ellen greenberg's. CASE i have hyper, mobility AND i was

1170
01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:38,200
Speaker 12: thinking about it and mostly stabbing victims are. Stabbed what

1171
01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:40,960
Speaker 12: the knife is going to the victim by some sort

1172
01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:43,680
Speaker 12: of strong, force you, know by held by someone. Else

1173
01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:45,560
Speaker 12: what if we're thinking about this the wrong. Way what

1174
01:05:45,640 --> 01:05:48,400
Speaker 12: if she held the knife behind her and back into

1175
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:49,240
Speaker 12: it with her core.

1176
01:05:49,320 --> 01:05:50,640
Speaker 3: Muscles if she.

1177
01:05:50,760 --> 01:05:54,000
Speaker 12: Used the knife and held it behind her and backed into,

1178
01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:57,160
Speaker 12: IT i can see that being a very viable way

1179
01:05:57,720 --> 01:06:01,960
Speaker 12: to have the force. Necessary if she was, depressed AND

1180
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:05,320
Speaker 12: i can speak to. This being depressed can be like a.

1181
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:09,080
Speaker 12: Switch you can be fine one minute and absolutely crazy

1182
01:06:09,240 --> 01:06:10,960
Speaker 12: feeling the next and want to ram.

1183
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:11,520
Speaker 3: Your car into a.

1184
01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:16,760
Speaker 12: Tree if that switch from, happy go lucky to depressed was.

1185
01:06:16,840 --> 01:06:19,920
Speaker 12: Flipped and she didn't have a, gun she didn't have.

1186
01:06:20,160 --> 01:06:23,960
Speaker 12: Poison she was cutting, through so she had a tool

1187
01:06:24,040 --> 01:06:27,960
Speaker 12: in her. HAND i can see how going from fine

1188
01:06:28,080 --> 01:06:32,440
Speaker 12: to depressed and angry could go very. Quickly and if

1189
01:06:32,480 --> 01:06:34,640
Speaker 12: she couldn't stab herself from the, back she could have

1190
01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:38,040
Speaker 12: rammed it into her. Back it doesn't sound, normal but who.

1191
01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:42,320
Speaker 3: Knows it's really good. Insight that's very good. Insight with

1192
01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:45,840
Speaker 3: the hyper, mobility, right this has been this has been

1193
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:48,040
Speaker 3: a kind of a topic for a hot. Minute AND

1194
01:06:48,080 --> 01:06:51,080
Speaker 3: i had mentioned the other, DAY i think yesterday THAT

1195
01:06:51,520 --> 01:06:54,680
Speaker 3: i think she had Elder daniel syndrome, correct which is

1196
01:06:54,720 --> 01:06:58,640
Speaker 3: that hyper mobility with the, joints and it's a it's a,

1197
01:06:58,680 --> 01:07:02,720
Speaker 3: serious serious. Disease BUT i don't know if she actually had,

1198
01:07:02,760 --> 01:07:06,320
Speaker 3: that BUT i do believe that her parents have touched

1199
01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:09,360
Speaker 3: on the idea that she had this hyper hyper mobility

1200
01:07:09,800 --> 01:07:14,760
Speaker 3: and that it would have caused stabilization problems for holding

1201
01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:17,600
Speaker 3: a knife and you, know stabbing herself in the. Back excuse,

1202
01:07:17,640 --> 01:07:22,120
Speaker 3: Me i'm still kind of froggy from the. Flu, oh that's. Okay,

1203
01:07:22,360 --> 01:07:25,400
Speaker 3: Sorry SO i just wanted to clear that up, though

1204
01:07:25,480 --> 01:07:28,320
Speaker 3: like don't come for, Me, like if you, look you'll find, it.

1205
01:07:28,400 --> 01:07:31,720
Speaker 3: Right but the idea that she would hold a knife

1206
01:07:31,760 --> 01:07:34,720
Speaker 3: and back up into, it wouldn't it just be easier

1207
01:07:35,720 --> 01:07:38,680
Speaker 3: and less awkward to stab yourself in the.

1208
01:07:38,680 --> 01:07:42,680
Speaker 4: Heart that's ALL i think, About, like, like it just

1209
01:07:42,720 --> 01:07:44,560
Speaker 4: DOESN'T a lot of it doesn't make.

1210
01:07:44,560 --> 01:07:45,480
Speaker 3: Sense there's so much of.

1211
01:07:45,520 --> 01:07:48,640
Speaker 4: It but but the why wouldn't you if you are,

1212
01:07:48,720 --> 01:07:51,200
Speaker 4: upset you want to end your, life why wouldn't? You

1213
01:07:51,760 --> 01:07:54,440
Speaker 4: AND i know you're not thinking, clearly but the immediate

1214
01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:56,680
Speaker 4: thing is to just stab yourself from the heart or

1215
01:07:57,000 --> 01:07:59,720
Speaker 4: OR i don't know if that part doesn't. Track and

1216
01:07:59,760 --> 01:08:02,360
Speaker 4: then also there's another part of. It there's a lot

1217
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:04,920
Speaker 4: of it that doesn't track to. Me but there was

1218
01:08:04,960 --> 01:08:08,760
Speaker 4: another area that when you watch the documentary that said

1219
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:12,160
Speaker 4: the way that the blood was pouring down her body

1220
01:08:12,840 --> 01:08:15,840
Speaker 4: looked like it wasn't the correct because it didn't match

1221
01:08:16,080 --> 01:08:18,240
Speaker 4: the way her body was laying when they found.

1222
01:08:18,320 --> 01:08:21,080
Speaker 3: Her so that seems unusual to me.

1223
01:08:21,120 --> 01:08:24,320
Speaker 4: As, well coupled with the fact that when you listen

1224
01:08:24,360 --> 01:08:26,720
Speaker 4: to that nine one one tape When sam enters the, room, like,

1225
01:08:26,880 --> 01:08:29,960
Speaker 4: right he never reacts to a knife jutting out of.

1226
01:08:29,960 --> 01:08:35,040
Speaker 4: IT i can, unzip let me. Unzip oh there's the.

1227
01:08:35,120 --> 01:08:36,680
Speaker 4: KNIFE i see it, Now like how could you not

1228
01:08:36,800 --> 01:08:39,479
Speaker 4: have seen that? Immediately so those are the things that

1229
01:08:39,520 --> 01:08:42,000
Speaker 4: stood out so but, yes there is a world where

1230
01:08:42,040 --> 01:08:45,880
Speaker 4: maybe she could have backed into a knife several times

1231
01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:48,559
Speaker 4: then decided to finalize it in her.

1232
01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:51,160
Speaker 3: Heart possibly it's just so hard for me to fath.

1233
01:08:51,200 --> 01:08:55,479
Speaker 3: Him BUT i mean to our talkback's, credit, right the

1234
01:08:55,520 --> 01:08:57,240
Speaker 3: woman who left the, talkback, which by the, way thank

1235
01:08:57,280 --> 01:08:59,280
Speaker 3: you for, that because it's very interesting that you call

1236
01:08:59,320 --> 01:09:05,400
Speaker 3: them what that hyper? Ability it is, possible, Right, Yeah.

1237
01:09:04,640 --> 01:09:07,680
Speaker 2: AND i also THOUGHT i thank you as well for

1238
01:09:07,720 --> 01:09:11,920
Speaker 2: the talk, back just your description of with depression having

1239
01:09:11,960 --> 01:09:16,000
Speaker 2: a light switch a tree from depressed to fine to

1240
01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:21,839
Speaker 2: rageful and desperate very. Quickly SO i appreciate you highlighting

1241
01:09:21,880 --> 01:09:22,599
Speaker 2: because she was.

1242
01:09:22,520 --> 01:09:25,200
Speaker 3: In her kitchen cutting up like, BLUEBERRIES i, think, right,

1243
01:09:25,479 --> 01:09:29,919
Speaker 3: yeah and, yeah and then you, Know, sam her fiance

1244
01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:32,439
Speaker 3: went to go LIKE i think he went to go work,

1245
01:09:32,479 --> 01:09:35,360
Speaker 3: out is what? Correct it, Said and he's seen on

1246
01:09:35,479 --> 01:09:42,040
Speaker 3: surveillance leaving and coming. Back and here's the, thing the,

1247
01:09:42,120 --> 01:09:45,640
Speaker 3: pooling the way the blood was on her face and

1248
01:09:45,680 --> 01:09:48,680
Speaker 3: the way the way that they would have expected it to,

1249
01:09:48,760 --> 01:09:51,360
Speaker 3: be because she was she was found kind of she

1250
01:09:51,439 --> 01:09:54,200
Speaker 3: was found in the supine, position so she was face,

1251
01:09:54,320 --> 01:09:59,600
Speaker 3: up the knife was in her, chest, correct and she

1252
01:09:59,680 --> 01:10:02,200
Speaker 3: had like a zip up hoodie, on like one of those.

1253
01:10:02,360 --> 01:10:08,400
Speaker 3: Hoodies And sam calls nine one. ONE i forgot one important.

1254
01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:10,519
Speaker 3: Thing she's kind of sitting up a little bit too

1255
01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:13,479
Speaker 3: in the corner of the cabinets, right not completely laying,

1256
01:10:13,520 --> 01:10:15,920
Speaker 3: flat if you will not she was not completely laying.

1257
01:10:15,960 --> 01:10:19,439
Speaker 3: Fat and So sam knocks on the door and he's,

1258
01:10:19,520 --> 01:10:21,360
Speaker 3: like you, know texting or let me, in and he's

1259
01:10:21,400 --> 01:10:23,760
Speaker 3: being kind of. Weird i'm not gonna. Lie he's being

1260
01:10:23,840 --> 01:10:26,479
Speaker 3: kind of, weird like you're gonna regret this or you,

1261
01:10:26,520 --> 01:10:28,200
Speaker 3: know he's just being kind of strange in these text

1262
01:10:28,240 --> 01:10:29,360
Speaker 3: messages to, her like open.

1263
01:10:29,439 --> 01:10:32,920
Speaker 2: Up where are the SECOND i remember? This the second text,

1264
01:10:32,960 --> 01:10:36,519
Speaker 2: message he was Frantically it was three seconds after the. First,

1265
01:10:37,080 --> 01:10:39,719
Speaker 2: yeah he literally knocked on the. Door it wasn't open

1266
01:10:39,880 --> 01:10:42,479
Speaker 2: in two point five. Seconds and he texted again and

1267
01:10:42,520 --> 01:10:45,920
Speaker 2: then continued on a da. Tribe it wasn't very.

1268
01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:48,680
Speaker 3: Strange it, Was and then he goes down to the

1269
01:10:48,720 --> 01:10:51,760
Speaker 3: security desk, right and he's, LIKE i can't get into my.

1270
01:10:51,800 --> 01:10:56,880
Speaker 3: Apartment the latch is closed in my Fiance ellen is

1271
01:10:56,920 --> 01:10:59,439
Speaker 3: not answering the, door and the security guard's, like, WELL

1272
01:10:59,439 --> 01:11:03,040
Speaker 3: i can't leave the, post so let me call maintenance or.

1273
01:11:03,040 --> 01:11:07,519
Speaker 3: Whatever So sam goes back up and basically breaks the

1274
01:11:07,560 --> 01:11:08,960
Speaker 3: door down because you know those.

1275
01:11:08,880 --> 01:11:12,960
Speaker 2: Latches that like the hotel, hotel.

1276
01:11:15,560 --> 01:11:19,000
Speaker 3: And he basically breaks in and the reason that it's

1277
01:11:19,000 --> 01:11:22,519
Speaker 3: been ruled a suicide is because of that. Latch. Right

1278
01:11:23,160 --> 01:11:27,280
Speaker 3: but we learned in this documentary from the superintendent or you,

1279
01:11:27,320 --> 01:11:31,360
Speaker 3: know the building manager building, manager that if you shut

1280
01:11:31,360 --> 01:11:33,680
Speaker 3: the door hard, enough it latches on its.

1281
01:11:33,680 --> 01:11:33,880
Speaker 7: Own.

1282
01:11:34,200 --> 01:11:38,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah and that was the Whole, yeah the whole

1283
01:11:38,600 --> 01:11:42,200
Speaker 2: thing was the locked what did they keep referring to

1284
01:11:42,200 --> 01:11:46,679
Speaker 2: in the, documentary the locked, box lock box, mystery, right

1285
01:11:47,080 --> 01:11:49,479
Speaker 2: just referring to it as with the assumption that you,

1286
01:11:49,520 --> 01:11:52,000
Speaker 2: know she was, alone whereas possibly.

1287
01:11:52,040 --> 01:11:54,519
Speaker 3: Not AND i will say that was WHERE i. WAS

1288
01:11:54,720 --> 01:11:55,080
Speaker 3: i kept.

1289
01:11:55,120 --> 01:11:57,479
Speaker 4: Lingering i'm, like, well the picking in the, door then

1290
01:11:57,520 --> 01:11:59,519
Speaker 4: that that IS i can't wrap my head around how

1291
01:11:59,520 --> 01:12:02,160
Speaker 4: he could have on, that but that that was the

1292
01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:05,080
Speaker 4: one part of the. Documentary i'm, like oh. Wow once

1293
01:12:05,120 --> 01:12:07,440
Speaker 4: she explained like it can slam.

1294
01:12:07,120 --> 01:12:09,960
Speaker 3: Lock and lock you. Out maybe there's a theory with

1295
01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:12,000
Speaker 3: that as. Well but then there's all these OTHER i,

1296
01:12:12,040 --> 01:12:13,960
Speaker 3: mean there's so many holes in this there's so many.

1297
01:12:14,000 --> 01:12:17,639
Speaker 4: Holes but the other one with the police department kind

1298
01:12:17,640 --> 01:12:21,519
Speaker 4: of denying initially that there was surveillance footage and then oh,

1299
01:12:21,600 --> 01:12:23,960
Speaker 4: yeah later coming forward and, saying, oh that's, right we

1300
01:12:23,960 --> 01:12:27,400
Speaker 4: do have, yeah more than there was another MOMENT i

1301
01:12:27,439 --> 01:12:30,559
Speaker 4: think that was unusual when they claimed the security guard

1302
01:12:30,600 --> 01:12:31,080
Speaker 4: went up with.

1303
01:12:31,160 --> 01:12:34,080
Speaker 3: Him oh, Yeah, Sam, yeah they said in the in

1304
01:12:34,120 --> 01:12:37,920
Speaker 3: the reports that the security desk guy went in the

1305
01:12:37,920 --> 01:12:41,880
Speaker 3: elevator With sam up to the to the. Room but

1306
01:12:41,920 --> 01:12:44,160
Speaker 3: that never. Happened that never. Happened.

1307
01:12:44,720 --> 01:12:47,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, WELL i, mean let's Before i'm going to pause

1308
01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:50,360
Speaker 4: us for a second Because i'm hearing from the guys

1309
01:12:50,400 --> 01:12:52,760
Speaker 4: that we actually have a caller who wants to talk

1310
01:12:52,760 --> 01:12:53,320
Speaker 4: to us about.

1311
01:12:53,360 --> 01:12:56,200
Speaker 3: IT i think her name Is. Karen Is karen there with?

1312
01:12:56,280 --> 01:12:56,519
Speaker 7: Us?

1313
01:12:56,920 --> 01:12:57,080
Speaker 2: Hi?

1314
01:12:57,200 --> 01:13:03,160
Speaker 7: Karen, Yeah, first this is the first Time i've caught your.

1315
01:13:03,160 --> 01:13:10,240
Speaker 7: Show it's very. Interesting oh, okay well, Welcome, Yes well about, this,

1316
01:13:11,240 --> 01:13:14,960
Speaker 7: well suppose it's. SUICIDE i want someone to explain to

1317
01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:20,200
Speaker 7: me how she stabbed herself in the. Back eleven. Times,

1318
01:13:20,479 --> 01:13:24,640
Speaker 7: yeah one is hard enough to. Believe eleven. TIMES i

1319
01:13:24,760 --> 01:13:28,320
Speaker 7: can't even twist enough to zip up the back of a. Dress,

1320
01:13:28,640 --> 01:13:35,640
Speaker 7: YEAH i. Know eleven. Times, YEAH i find that.

1321
01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:40,120
Speaker 3: Ridiculous, karen you're speaking our. Language we totally agree with,

1322
01:13:40,160 --> 01:13:42,960
Speaker 3: you and NOT i mean the one in her. HEAD

1323
01:13:43,040 --> 01:13:45,320
Speaker 3: i don't know if you watch the, Documentary, karen but

1324
01:13:46,000 --> 01:13:49,320
Speaker 3: they Show, okay, well in the, documentary it's very well.

1325
01:13:49,320 --> 01:13:51,439
Speaker 3: Done it's Called death And apartment six o three and

1326
01:13:51,479 --> 01:13:54,439
Speaker 3: it's On, hulu and it's a documentary about all of,

1327
01:13:54,439 --> 01:13:56,920
Speaker 3: this and that's kind of what we're talking. About and

1328
01:13:56,960 --> 01:14:00,920
Speaker 3: in the documentary they show some of the photos of the, wounds,

1329
01:14:01,280 --> 01:14:04,240
Speaker 3: okay and the one that's in the back of her,

1330
01:14:04,280 --> 01:14:07,200
Speaker 3: head it's kind of like right above where your neck

1331
01:14:07,360 --> 01:14:10,439
Speaker 3: kind of meets your, head maybe just a little bit above,

1332
01:14:10,479 --> 01:14:13,160
Speaker 3: that like a couple of inches. Maybe AND i, MEAN

1333
01:14:13,439 --> 01:14:17,519
Speaker 3: i really don't know how you physically do you can do,

1334
01:14:17,640 --> 01:14:22,320
Speaker 3: THAT i truly do, not and then have the wherewithal

1335
01:14:22,439 --> 01:14:25,080
Speaker 3: after you do this to take it and put it

1336
01:14:25,120 --> 01:14:29,120
Speaker 3: in your, chest, RIGHT i, MEAN i just don't know

1337
01:14:29,160 --> 01:14:31,360
Speaker 3: how it's. Possible it does.

1338
01:14:31,520 --> 01:14:35,639
Speaker 7: Seem he's obviously a proportionist of some kind, right there's

1339
01:14:36,080 --> 01:14:37,840
Speaker 7: no other. EXPLANATION i.

1340
01:14:37,880 --> 01:14:41,120
Speaker 3: AGREE i agree, that, YEAH i.

1341
01:14:41,160 --> 01:14:44,439
Speaker 2: Can't it doesn't make a lot of sense to a

1342
01:14:44,479 --> 01:14:46,519
Speaker 2: lot of. People so you're in good.

1343
01:14:46,520 --> 01:14:49,120
Speaker 3: Company we really thank you for the, Call, karen, because

1344
01:14:49,200 --> 01:14:51,320
Speaker 3: like the show runs, on people like, You so thank

1345
01:14:51,360 --> 01:14:53,120
Speaker 3: you so much for giving us a, call giving us

1346
01:14:53,120 --> 01:14:56,240
Speaker 3: your thoughts on the death Of ellen Green. BIRD i

1347
01:14:56,400 --> 01:15:00,120
Speaker 3: understand we have another talk. About hey gi, guys.

1348
01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:04,280
Speaker 13: It Is Mary kay The ohio. AGAIN i was just

1349
01:15:04,360 --> 01:15:09,680
Speaker 13: listening to The Ellen greenberg episode and my issue And

1350
01:15:09,720 --> 01:15:12,280
Speaker 13: i'd love to know What joseph thinks is if she

1351
01:15:12,439 --> 01:15:15,760
Speaker 13: stabbed herself in the back of the, head which is

1352
01:15:15,800 --> 01:15:18,519
Speaker 13: what the stab pattern looks, like wouldn't it have an

1353
01:15:18,600 --> 01:15:21,600
Speaker 13: angle on it if you're trying to stop unless she

1354
01:15:21,680 --> 01:15:23,479
Speaker 13: keeps switching hands and.

1355
01:15:26,720 --> 01:15:30,280
Speaker 3: We lose. Her let's say that's, right that was the

1356
01:15:30,360 --> 01:15:32,599
Speaker 3: end of. It, Okay, okay go, ahead. Listen we're going to, say,

1357
01:15:32,600 --> 01:15:36,400
Speaker 3: body she's so, right she's one hundred percent on it

1358
01:15:36,600 --> 01:15:39,200
Speaker 3: would be it would be at an. Angle AND i

1359
01:15:39,200 --> 01:15:42,000
Speaker 3: think we should flag this For sunday For joseph just

1360
01:15:42,000 --> 01:15:44,640
Speaker 3: to get you, know because she probably wanted him to,

1361
01:15:44,680 --> 01:15:48,800
Speaker 3: answer not my stupid, butt but it would have you,

1362
01:15:48,800 --> 01:15:52,559
Speaker 3: know Because joseph can explain it in actually you know

1363
01:15:52,600 --> 01:15:55,519
Speaker 3: and not a. Foray but she's one hundred percent. Right

1364
01:15:55,560 --> 01:15:58,760
Speaker 3: it would have an, ankle and it doesn't note that

1365
01:15:58,880 --> 01:16:01,960
Speaker 3: it was there was an angle because you can't stab

1366
01:16:02,000 --> 01:16:05,719
Speaker 3: yourself in that location and keep it perfectly. Straight you just. Can't, True,

1367
01:16:06,000 --> 01:16:08,040
Speaker 3: yeah you just. Can't that's a valid.

1368
01:16:08,040 --> 01:16:10,960
Speaker 4: POINT i think we should Get, joseph can we flag that.

1369
01:16:11,000 --> 01:16:13,920
Speaker 4: One i'm making a note right now AND i just

1370
01:16:13,960 --> 01:16:15,960
Speaker 4: have to say one of the things that's that thanks

1371
01:16:16,000 --> 01:16:19,360
Speaker 4: to the, DOCUMENTARY i didn't realize this that all of

1372
01:16:19,400 --> 01:16:22,240
Speaker 4: the photographs and everything they have are because of that

1373
01:16:22,320 --> 01:16:25,920
Speaker 4: building manager who, Said i'm just going to make SURE

1374
01:16:25,960 --> 01:16:29,200
Speaker 4: i get make sure nothing is. Stolen LIKE i didn't.

1375
01:16:29,200 --> 01:16:32,600
Speaker 4: Realize no one, police no one takes any video footage or.

1376
01:16:32,640 --> 01:16:38,360
Speaker 3: Anything crazy isn't. Insane and the cleanup crew right the clean,

1377
01:16:38,439 --> 01:16:42,360
Speaker 3: scene so this was ruled this is ruled a. Homicide

1378
01:16:42,880 --> 01:16:46,280
Speaker 3: and the next day people come in and, oh, no

1379
01:16:46,360 --> 01:16:48,880
Speaker 3: it was ruled of. Suicide, no it was a suicide

1380
01:16:49,120 --> 01:16:51,519
Speaker 3: THAT i spoke, Wrong so they had the cleanup crew

1381
01:16:51,560 --> 01:16:53,360
Speaker 3: coming because it was a. Suicide well then it gets

1382
01:16:53,439 --> 01:16:56,280
Speaker 3: rolled a homicide right before her funeral or right at her,

1383
01:16:56,320 --> 01:16:59,080
Speaker 3: funeral and they're, like oh my, god we've already cleaned it.

1384
01:16:59,160 --> 01:17:01,760
Speaker 3: Up we're supposed to. Do it's.

1385
01:17:01,800 --> 01:17:05,679
Speaker 2: Insane, well stick. Around we have more to dig into

1386
01:17:05,880 --> 01:17:08,320
Speaker 2: On True crime And Chill death And apartment six oh,

1387
01:17:08,400 --> 01:17:12,040
Speaker 2: Three what happened To Ellen? Greenberg and we also have

1388
01:17:12,120 --> 01:17:15,519
Speaker 2: a couple more. Talkbacks we've got, That we've got. More

1389
01:17:15,800 --> 01:17:16,760
Speaker 2: we've Got True Crime.

1390
01:17:16,800 --> 01:17:30,320
Speaker 3: Tonight welcome back To True Crime tonight On, iHeartRadio where

1391
01:17:30,360 --> 01:17:32,439
Speaker 3: we talk true crime all the. Time I'm Boddy moon

1392
01:17:32,479 --> 01:17:36,160
Speaker 3: And i'm here with Producer Courtney armstrong and Producer taha

1393
01:17:36,320 --> 01:17:38,559
Speaker 3: and don't Forget sam And adam on the. Board. Listen

1394
01:17:38,560 --> 01:17:40,400
Speaker 3: if you miss any part of tonight's, show you can

1395
01:17:40,439 --> 01:17:44,160
Speaker 3: always catch the. Podcast just go To, iHeartRadio download the apps,

1396
01:17:44,160 --> 01:17:46,479
Speaker 3: free do a search For True Crime tonight and. Listen

1397
01:17:46,520 --> 01:17:48,439
Speaker 3: you're gonna be able listen to the, podcast no. Problem

1398
01:17:48,920 --> 01:17:50,240
Speaker 3: we also want to hear from. You give us a

1399
01:17:50,240 --> 01:17:52,840
Speaker 3: call at eighty eight thirty one crime or leave us

1400
01:17:52,840 --> 01:17:54,680
Speaker 3: a talk back on The Arheart radio apps and you

1401
01:17:54,760 --> 01:17:55,760
Speaker 3: just downloaded it right.

1402
01:17:56,240 --> 01:17:56,400
Speaker 9: Now.

1403
01:17:56,439 --> 01:18:00,000
Speaker 3: LISTEN i made a huge error when we did the last.

1404
01:18:00,080 --> 01:18:05,800
Speaker 3: SEGMENT i forgot Ask courtney about her. Teacher who is

1405
01:18:05,840 --> 01:18:08,400
Speaker 3: the teacher that made a big impact on your?

1406
01:18:08,400 --> 01:18:11,760
Speaker 2: Life CAN i give you only? Two that's. IT i

1407
01:18:11,800 --> 01:18:15,160
Speaker 2: had a list of, more but. True So Janet mackenzie

1408
01:18:15,280 --> 01:18:18,639
Speaker 2: From she was my high School english. TEACHER i took

1409
01:18:18,800 --> 01:18:21,680
Speaker 2: three different classes with, her every CLASS i. Could AND

1410
01:18:21,720 --> 01:18:24,000
Speaker 2: i still have a book that she gave. Me she

1411
01:18:24,040 --> 01:18:26,400
Speaker 2: came to my graduation party at my. House oh my,

1412
01:18:26,439 --> 01:18:29,680
Speaker 2: gosh and the book was called Wild, women and it

1413
01:18:29,720 --> 01:18:33,960
Speaker 2: was short, stories and the inscription, says not because you're

1414
01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:37,240
Speaker 2: a wild, woman but because you embody the best of

1415
01:18:37,280 --> 01:18:40,080
Speaker 2: what a woman can. Be and to my seventeen year

1416
01:18:40,120 --> 01:18:42,559
Speaker 2: old self and to my today forty seven year old,

1417
01:18:42,600 --> 01:18:46,479
Speaker 2: self that book is very very. Special so that Was

1418
01:18:46,720 --> 01:18:51,120
Speaker 2: Janet mackenzie in high. School and Then Professor peltier From Trinity,

1419
01:18:51,240 --> 01:18:55,639
Speaker 2: College oh changed my. Life, WOW i Love.

1420
01:18:56,040 --> 01:18:59,719
Speaker 3: Elson the teachers don't get enough. CREDIT i, mean they truly.

1421
01:18:59,720 --> 01:19:02,160
Speaker 3: Don't one of my dearest, friends her name Is Michelle

1422
01:19:02,280 --> 01:19:05,720
Speaker 3: flows In. Tampa shout Out. Michelle she's a teacher to

1423
01:19:05,800 --> 01:19:08,840
Speaker 3: middle school. Boys can you, Imagine oh my. God and

1424
01:19:08,880 --> 01:19:12,160
Speaker 3: she is just so joyful all the, time and she

1425
01:19:12,360 --> 01:19:15,680
Speaker 3: really cares about her, students And i'm just inspired by

1426
01:19:15,720 --> 01:19:17,479
Speaker 3: her every day AND i just wanted to give her

1427
01:19:17,479 --> 01:19:18,080
Speaker 3: a little shout.

1428
01:19:18,080 --> 01:19:23,400
Speaker 2: Out, yeah especially middle. School oh my, god it is really.

1429
01:19:23,520 --> 01:19:28,960
Speaker 2: Specific that's tough. Time so, Yeah, well switching to a

1430
01:19:29,120 --> 01:19:33,400
Speaker 2: totally different, subject The Ellen greenberg, Documentary death And apartment

1431
01:19:33,439 --> 01:19:33,760
Speaker 2: six o.

1432
01:19:33,880 --> 01:19:36,280
Speaker 3: Three this is our true crime and chill for the.

1433
01:19:36,320 --> 01:19:38,679
Speaker 3: Week and True crime And chill is kind of where

1434
01:19:38,680 --> 01:19:40,880
Speaker 3: we all pick a documentary and we kind of watch

1435
01:19:40,960 --> 01:19:43,960
Speaker 3: it together throughout the week and then on Every wednesday

1436
01:19:44,200 --> 01:19:46,880
Speaker 3: or every Other, wednesday we talk about. It and that's

1437
01:19:46,920 --> 01:19:50,000
Speaker 3: what we're doing. Now so there was one other. Thing

1438
01:19:50,160 --> 01:19:52,759
Speaker 3: there was one thing in the documentary and it, really

1439
01:19:52,960 --> 01:19:57,519
Speaker 3: well two really tugged at my heart. Strings When Ellen,

1440
01:19:57,560 --> 01:20:02,000
Speaker 3: greenberg she was The Jewish jewish, faith, right and part

1441
01:20:02,080 --> 01:20:05,679
Speaker 3: of the tradition in a burial of A jewish person

1442
01:20:05,840 --> 01:20:09,200
Speaker 3: is that the body is attended to and cleaned and you,

1443
01:20:09,200 --> 01:20:14,360
Speaker 3: know presented in a certain, way, okay and the, community

1444
01:20:14,400 --> 01:20:16,960
Speaker 3: the church takes care of. It the community takes care of.

1445
01:20:17,000 --> 01:20:21,320
Speaker 3: It and they filmed the scene where there's two women

1446
01:20:21,400 --> 01:20:26,240
Speaker 3: attending To ellen's body and you, know as they're doing,

1447
01:20:26,240 --> 01:20:30,640
Speaker 3: this they're noticing these wounds because they didn't realize initially

1448
01:20:30,680 --> 01:20:32,840
Speaker 3: that you, Know Ellen greenberg had all these wounds on

1449
01:20:32,880 --> 01:20:36,960
Speaker 3: her back right that she and there's a moment in

1450
01:20:36,960 --> 01:20:39,400
Speaker 3: the documentary where they're attending to her body and these

1451
01:20:39,439 --> 01:20:45,080
Speaker 3: women it's very there's no words, spoken but it's like they.

1452
01:20:45,120 --> 01:20:49,200
Speaker 3: Know it's like they. Know and then they're at the, funeral,

1453
01:20:49,520 --> 01:20:55,639
Speaker 3: okay and they're Sitting shita, right and they learn that

1454
01:20:55,720 --> 01:20:58,920
Speaker 3: it's been changed from a homicide to a suicide Or i'm,

1455
01:20:58,920 --> 01:21:03,760
Speaker 3: SORRY i have it backward from suicide to. Homicide it's

1456
01:21:03,880 --> 01:21:06,120
Speaker 3: like at the funeral and it's, like oh my, god,

1457
01:21:06,800 --> 01:21:10,719
Speaker 3: yeah oh there's poor, parents like it's just so. Horrible

1458
01:21:10,760 --> 01:21:14,160
Speaker 3: and then it gets ruled a homicide And sam walks

1459
01:21:14,160 --> 01:21:19,920
Speaker 3: in the, tension the, tension it's. Crazy it's. Crazy but

1460
01:21:19,960 --> 01:21:21,879
Speaker 3: it was a really good. DOCUMENTARY i think they presented

1461
01:21:21,880 --> 01:21:24,920
Speaker 3: the case really. Well. YEAH i think they did a

1462
01:21:24,920 --> 01:21:28,479
Speaker 3: really good. Job and the reporter who reported on this,

1463
01:21:28,520 --> 01:21:30,160
Speaker 3: initially what a great job she.

1464
01:21:30,200 --> 01:21:32,320
Speaker 2: Did OH i was she was.

1465
01:21:32,360 --> 01:21:36,000
Speaker 3: Phenomenal, ANYWAY i really recommend the. Documentary it was super.

1466
01:21:36,040 --> 01:21:39,519
Speaker 3: Good it's a really good. Overview it was shot, well

1467
01:21:39,560 --> 01:21:40,440
Speaker 3: it's beautifully.

1468
01:21:40,479 --> 01:21:44,719
Speaker 2: Done and if you want to know what uncomfortable looks,

1469
01:21:44,800 --> 01:21:49,040
Speaker 2: like there's a couple of filmed depositions of more than

1470
01:21:49,120 --> 01:21:55,880
Speaker 2: one corner medical examiner and they look. Uncomfortable really, yeah,

1471
01:21:56,000 --> 01:22:00,800
Speaker 2: yeah so that WAS i had The, yeah archival is

1472
01:22:00,800 --> 01:22:03,120
Speaker 2: what it's called when you it's you, know actual, footage

1473
01:22:03,560 --> 01:22:06,200
Speaker 2: and that WAS i thought it was incredibly telling to.

1474
01:22:06,240 --> 01:22:12,760
Speaker 4: Me, yea, no, NO i, agree especially you, know with the.

1475
01:22:12,800 --> 01:22:16,360
Speaker 4: Circumstances AND i think one of the people that you're referring,

1476
01:22:16,360 --> 01:22:19,120
Speaker 4: to he's the one that went back and forth with the.

1477
01:22:19,160 --> 01:22:20,920
Speaker 4: Decision at one point he, said, oh it was a,

1478
01:22:20,960 --> 01:22:23,960
Speaker 4: suicide then it went back to it was a, homicide

1479
01:22:24,439 --> 01:22:27,160
Speaker 4: and you could see the awkwardness of like there was

1480
01:22:27,160 --> 01:22:29,400
Speaker 4: a simple question, like, well where are your notes on?

1481
01:22:29,439 --> 01:22:32,559
Speaker 4: THAT i do not have the. Notes it was something

1482
01:22:32,600 --> 01:22:34,880
Speaker 4: really awkward about the way it was that.

1483
01:22:34,600 --> 01:22:39,200
Speaker 2: That you're exactly, right it was the original examiner and

1484
01:22:39,200 --> 01:22:42,799
Speaker 2: and then, yes he had no notes from a meeting

1485
01:22:42,840 --> 01:22:50,080
Speaker 2: that took place with investigators during which his you, know

1486
01:22:50,160 --> 01:22:53,400
Speaker 2: cause of death changed and he couldn't sort of.

1487
01:22:53,439 --> 01:22:57,839
Speaker 4: Remember, YEAH i was hating on him during that, scene

1488
01:22:57,880 --> 01:23:01,000
Speaker 4: but THEN i switched my feeling about him when LATER

1489
01:23:01,080 --> 01:23:04,360
Speaker 4: i realized he's the one that, Said, okay there is

1490
01:23:04,400 --> 01:23:07,440
Speaker 4: something fishy, here and he came, forward.

1491
01:23:07,160 --> 01:23:08,559
Speaker 3: So HE'S i do think it took a lot of

1492
01:23:08,600 --> 01:23:12,639
Speaker 3: bravery for him to change his. Mind much like.

1493
01:23:12,600 --> 01:23:15,879
Speaker 4: The police officer were saying, earlier it's hard to probably

1494
01:23:16,600 --> 01:23:18,599
Speaker 4: work in an environment where you know everyone is going

1495
01:23:18,640 --> 01:23:19,760
Speaker 4: to come against you for what you're.

1496
01:23:19,760 --> 01:23:23,640
Speaker 3: Saying so, right, right inter, THING i definitely recommend the.

1497
01:23:23,640 --> 01:23:25,840
Speaker 3: Documentary please watch, it let us know what you. Think

1498
01:23:25,920 --> 01:23:27,320
Speaker 3: just because we are not going to talk about it

1499
01:23:27,400 --> 01:23:29,720
Speaker 3: anymore doesn't or that documentary doesn't mean we don't want

1500
01:23:29,720 --> 01:23:31,599
Speaker 3: to hear your. Thoughts SO i mean as a talk,

1501
01:23:31,680 --> 01:23:33,920
Speaker 3: back and NOW i think we're going to go are

1502
01:23:33,920 --> 01:23:36,040
Speaker 3: we gonna are we going to talk about new? Ones

1503
01:23:36,120 --> 01:23:38,519
Speaker 3: OR i, think well we could.

1504
01:23:38,600 --> 01:23:42,080
Speaker 2: See what this talkback has something coming out of his.

1505
01:23:42,160 --> 01:23:44,400
Speaker 2: Body we don't know what it, is so let's find.

1506
01:23:44,400 --> 01:23:48,760
Speaker 6: Out, hi, ladies this Is renee From Orange. COUNTY i

1507
01:23:48,840 --> 01:23:51,280
Speaker 6: just wanted to tell you. GIRLS i love listening to

1508
01:23:51,320 --> 01:23:54,240
Speaker 6: you every morning When i'm getting ready for. Work AND

1509
01:23:54,479 --> 01:23:57,920
Speaker 6: i have another comment as far as The Ellen greenberg,

1510
01:23:58,080 --> 01:24:02,200
Speaker 6: CASE i think that the the fiance kind of set

1511
01:24:02,280 --> 01:24:07,200
Speaker 6: the tone for the cops by SAYING i think she committed.

1512
01:24:07,280 --> 01:24:10,679
Speaker 6: Suicide just a little, THOUGHT i feel like you kind

1513
01:24:10,680 --> 01:24:13,400
Speaker 6: of stept that tone and they just kind of took

1514
01:24:13,439 --> 01:24:16,240
Speaker 6: it from. There you guys have a great, night And

1515
01:24:16,280 --> 01:24:18,799
Speaker 6: i'm so happy THAT i get to listen.

1516
01:24:18,600 --> 01:24:19,479
Speaker 14: To you guys every.

1517
01:24:19,560 --> 01:24:22,280
Speaker 6: Morning roc on Oh.

1518
01:24:22,600 --> 01:24:26,120
Speaker 3: RENE i love, It thank, You. RENEE i Love Orange.

1519
01:24:26,120 --> 01:24:28,400
Speaker 3: County that's WHERE i grew well After, DETROIT i grew

1520
01:24:28,439 --> 01:24:29,400
Speaker 3: up in. County so.

1521
01:24:29,680 --> 01:24:32,479
Speaker 2: Beautiful it is exquisitely, beautiful.

1522
01:24:32,640 --> 01:24:37,000
Speaker 3: Spoiled like it was. Unbelievable but, yeah that Was so

1523
01:24:37,080 --> 01:24:41,679
Speaker 3: he calls nine one one and he, says she stabbed, herself, right,

1524
01:24:42,200 --> 01:24:45,000
Speaker 3: yeah that's what he. Says, yeah so, yeah, yeah that's he.

1525
01:24:45,120 --> 01:24:47,479
Speaker 4: Set the tone and they just they just followed along

1526
01:24:47,520 --> 01:24:48,000
Speaker 4: with that.

1527
01:24:48,600 --> 01:24:52,439
Speaker 3: Narrative, Right thank you for the talk About.

1528
01:24:52,439 --> 01:24:54,040
Speaker 2: Renee, yeah, absolutely.

1529
01:24:53,800 --> 01:24:54,240
Speaker 3: It's a good.

1530
01:24:54,240 --> 01:24:58,200
Speaker 4: One so now the challenge is what is our next

1531
01:24:58,360 --> 01:25:00,240
Speaker 4: uh our next one going to?

1532
01:25:00,280 --> 01:25:02,160
Speaker 3: Be we have to pick our next. Doc that's going

1533
01:25:02,200 --> 01:25:02,320
Speaker 3: to be.

1534
01:25:02,800 --> 01:25:07,880
Speaker 4: Suggestions as a matter of, fact we do, so and

1535
01:25:08,120 --> 01:25:10,760
Speaker 4: actually we got a couple of talkbacks with people suggesting

1536
01:25:10,840 --> 01:25:12,960
Speaker 4: Some so, Okay i'm going to turn to the guys

1537
01:25:13,000 --> 01:25:14,800
Speaker 4: to play a couple of talkbacks and now we can

1538
01:25:15,040 --> 01:25:17,360
Speaker 4: think them all over and think about. Them how about

1539
01:25:17,439 --> 01:25:19,800
Speaker 4: we go TO i think we had ELEVEN a, ready

1540
01:25:19,800 --> 01:25:20,360
Speaker 4: can we play that?

1541
01:25:20,439 --> 01:25:24,960
Speaker 14: One good. Afternoon It's mark calling From New. HAMPSHIRE i

1542
01:25:25,040 --> 01:25:27,920
Speaker 14: absolutely love your. Show you guys have created a community

1543
01:25:28,280 --> 01:25:33,160
Speaker 14: that is just. Exceptional calling to bring up The Alabama,

1544
01:25:33,240 --> 01:25:36,439
Speaker 14: solution the new documentary that just came out ON Hbo.

1545
01:25:36,600 --> 01:25:40,200
Speaker 14: Max oh my. Goodness there needs to be something we

1546
01:25:40,240 --> 01:25:42,519
Speaker 14: can do as a, community whether it's happening there or the.

1547
01:25:42,600 --> 01:25:47,840
Speaker 14: Travel it is an absolute incredible eye opening cameras inside the,

1548
01:25:47,880 --> 01:25:51,640
Speaker 14: prison back of the, scenes what's really happening and the

1549
01:25:51,680 --> 01:25:55,240
Speaker 14: government really covering it. Up the amount of people that

1550
01:25:55,280 --> 01:25:58,240
Speaker 14: have died in a year is over a thousand in this.

1551
01:25:58,880 --> 01:25:59,960
Speaker 3: Jail is absolutely.

1552
01:26:00,000 --> 01:26:02,760
Speaker 14: INCREDIBLE i hope you guys make it a wonderful rest

1553
01:26:02,760 --> 01:26:05,639
Speaker 14: of your. Day thank you for all you. Do everything you're,

1554
01:26:05,680 --> 01:26:06,639
Speaker 14: doing it's absolutely.

1555
01:26:06,640 --> 01:26:08,360
Speaker 3: Incredible, Mark.

1556
01:26:11,920 --> 01:26:12,439
Speaker 2: So do it.

1557
01:26:12,479 --> 01:26:16,120
Speaker 3: Again can you call me every morning and give me some.

1558
01:26:16,160 --> 01:26:20,719
Speaker 3: REAFFIRMATIONS i need you in my. Life thank?

1559
01:26:20,800 --> 01:26:24,479
Speaker 2: You, YES i just ALL i want to say was

1560
01:26:24,520 --> 01:26:27,200
Speaker 2: one thing To. Mark one of my favorite places Is

1561
01:26:27,320 --> 01:26:30,600
Speaker 2: Lake winnipesake In New. HAMPSHIRE i used to go and

1562
01:26:30,720 --> 01:26:33,519
Speaker 2: visit a friend and spend like a week of every.

1563
01:26:33,560 --> 01:26:36,000
Speaker 2: Summer so you live in a beautiful state and thank

1564
01:26:36,080 --> 01:26:36,360
Speaker 2: you very.

1565
01:26:36,439 --> 01:26:39,160
Speaker 3: Much, yes thank, You. Mark that was very. Lovely uh,

1566
01:26:39,240 --> 01:26:41,800
Speaker 3: yeah The Alabama, SOLUTION i haven't seen it. YET i

1567
01:26:41,800 --> 01:26:43,400
Speaker 3: Think indy AND i were gonna watch, it but we

1568
01:26:43,479 --> 01:26:47,920
Speaker 3: ended up watching a different one this weekend, actually and

1569
01:26:48,120 --> 01:26:51,800
Speaker 3: it's about The alabama prison system and all the you,

1570
01:26:51,800 --> 01:26:54,640
Speaker 3: know the the horrible things that are happening. There and,

1571
01:26:54,640 --> 01:26:58,280
Speaker 3: LISTEN i know it's so easy to be, like they're,

1572
01:26:58,280 --> 01:27:01,040
Speaker 3: prisoners they did something, wrong they deserve of. It but,

1573
01:27:01,200 --> 01:27:03,160
Speaker 3: Again i'm going to get in my soapboxing that, we

1574
01:27:03,200 --> 01:27:07,000
Speaker 3: as a civilized, society you, know the best country in the,

1575
01:27:07,040 --> 01:27:10,040
Speaker 3: world have decided that this is how we are going

1576
01:27:10,080 --> 01:27:15,439
Speaker 3: to you, know handle punishment and you, know rehabilitation of,

1577
01:27:15,479 --> 01:27:20,000
Speaker 3: criminals and we have to take care of. Them, YEAH i, Agree, yeah.

1578
01:27:20,000 --> 01:27:25,320
Speaker 2: Tax as a, TAXPAYER i don't want to be a compliant,

1579
01:27:25,479 --> 01:27:30,160
Speaker 2: torturer you. KNOW i don't think it is that radical an, idea.

1580
01:27:30,360 --> 01:27:30,960
Speaker 2: THOUGH i.

1581
01:27:32,920 --> 01:27:37,160
Speaker 3: Get a lot of crap for, it because how CAN

1582
01:27:37,200 --> 01:27:38,880
Speaker 3: i sit AND i get, it, like how CAN i

1583
01:27:38,880 --> 01:27:40,920
Speaker 3: sit here and say like what a monster like people

1584
01:27:40,960 --> 01:27:43,599
Speaker 3: Like Brian coburger are and then also on one hand

1585
01:27:43,680 --> 01:27:46,360
Speaker 3: say well they have to be treated with decency as.

1586
01:27:46,360 --> 01:27:50,280
Speaker 3: Well AND i get. THAT i get where they're coming.

1587
01:27:50,280 --> 01:27:53,519
Speaker 3: FROM i, do but it's just it's within me that

1588
01:27:53,560 --> 01:27:55,760
Speaker 3: we have to treat people, WELL i don't.

1589
01:27:55,760 --> 01:27:55,840
Speaker 7: Know.

1590
01:27:56,360 --> 01:27:59,519
Speaker 4: Yeah and we're supposed to be a society that, is,

1591
01:27:59,640 --> 01:28:02,280
Speaker 4: yeah we think higher of each.

1592
01:28:02,320 --> 01:28:04,479
Speaker 3: Other we're supposed to be the best country on the.

1593
01:28:04,520 --> 01:28:09,320
Speaker 3: Planet let's act like. It so. WELL i don't know that.

1594
01:28:09,360 --> 01:28:10,240
Speaker 3: One i'm interested in that.

1595
01:28:10,280 --> 01:28:12,080
Speaker 4: One i'm interested in that one as. Well and that's

1596
01:28:12,120 --> 01:28:13,479
Speaker 4: an important topic that all.

1597
01:28:13,439 --> 01:28:15,640
Speaker 3: Right, well let's add it to our list of suggestions

1598
01:28:15,680 --> 01:28:19,080
Speaker 3: and considerations to absolutely all, RIGHT i think we got

1599
01:28:19,120 --> 01:28:20,479
Speaker 3: another one that someone is.

1600
01:28:20,520 --> 01:28:24,479
Speaker 5: Suggesting, okay hey, ladies It's brittany From, Montreal. CANADA i

1601
01:28:24,520 --> 01:28:27,599
Speaker 5: have a recommendation for true crime and chill just came

1602
01:28:27,640 --> 01:28:30,400
Speaker 5: out today On netflix Called My father THE Btk. Killer

1603
01:28:30,840 --> 01:28:32,920
Speaker 5: it's from his Daughter carrie's point of view and her.

1604
01:28:32,960 --> 01:28:37,040
Speaker 5: EXPERIENCE i haven't watched a trailer, yet but he's one

1605
01:28:37,040 --> 01:28:39,000
Speaker 5: of the killers that fascinates me the most due to

1606
01:28:39,040 --> 01:28:41,880
Speaker 5: his incredibly long cooling off period and how rare that

1607
01:28:42,000 --> 01:28:46,200
Speaker 5: is and how quote unquote normal he. Seemed So, YEAH

1608
01:28:46,200 --> 01:28:47,200
Speaker 5: i hope you guys will watch.

1609
01:28:47,240 --> 01:28:48,840
Speaker 2: IT i can't. Wait i'll be watching it.

1610
01:28:48,920 --> 01:28:54,240
Speaker 3: Tonight let me SO i wait for you guys.

1611
01:28:54,360 --> 01:28:59,880
Speaker 2: Enthusiasm, well you, KNOW btk certainly is a topic of

1612
01:29:01,080 --> 01:29:05,559
Speaker 2: much interest across many different cases that we've talked. About

1613
01:29:05,640 --> 01:29:08,840
Speaker 2: SO i love that, suggestion AND i ACTUALLY i really

1614
01:29:08,840 --> 01:29:10,840
Speaker 2: love that you're watching it. Tonight that's HOW i feel

1615
01:29:10,880 --> 01:29:13,799
Speaker 2: about new episodes coming out Of Below.

1616
01:29:13,880 --> 01:29:17,479
Speaker 3: Deck you're, LIKE i can't, wait got to watch it.

1617
01:29:17,520 --> 01:29:21,200
Speaker 2: Now but thank you for the. Suggestion, yes thank.

1618
01:29:21,240 --> 01:29:24,200
Speaker 3: You i'm obviously interested IN, btk And i've Met carrie

1619
01:29:24,479 --> 01:29:27,519
Speaker 3: many times AND i have an interest in, this So

1620
01:29:27,560 --> 01:29:30,240
Speaker 3: i'll definitely be watching this one for. Sure but this

1621
01:29:30,280 --> 01:29:31,599
Speaker 3: is ANOTHER i.

1622
01:29:31,520 --> 01:29:33,880
Speaker 4: Know you know the case pretty. Well for those who

1623
01:29:33,960 --> 01:29:36,080
Speaker 4: don't know what the initial stand for anything about the,

1624
01:29:36,120 --> 01:29:38,360
Speaker 4: case just a little who and WHAT.

1625
01:29:38,439 --> 01:29:41,800
Speaker 3: Istk Is Dennis. Raider he was a serial killer In

1626
01:29:41,920 --> 01:29:47,240
Speaker 3: kansas and he you, know his his murder spanned, decades

1627
01:29:47,880 --> 01:29:52,080
Speaker 3: and he had an abnormally long cooling off, period LIKE

1628
01:29:52,479 --> 01:29:54,880
Speaker 3: i think fifteen. YEARS i haven't there's A i have

1629
01:29:54,920 --> 01:29:57,160
Speaker 3: so many like little statistics in my. HEAD i can't remember,

1630
01:29:57,160 --> 01:30:00,280
Speaker 3: exactly but it was very long and he and he

1631
01:30:00,720 --> 01:30:03,839
Speaker 3: toyed with the police and the, media and he named HIMSELF,

1632
01:30:03,920 --> 01:30:08,240
Speaker 3: btk which stands for buying torture. Kill that's the general

1633
01:30:08,240 --> 01:30:12,240
Speaker 3: summary of. It. Yeah his first murders that we know

1634
01:30:12,360 --> 01:30:16,120
Speaker 3: of were also for. People and he is in communication

1635
01:30:16,240 --> 01:30:19,280
Speaker 3: With Catherine, ramsland who was also a teacher For Brian.

1636
01:30:19,320 --> 01:30:21,320
Speaker 3: COBERGER i love.

1637
01:30:21,400 --> 01:30:23,360
Speaker 4: That guess what that was a test BECAUSE i actually

1638
01:30:23,400 --> 01:30:24,720
Speaker 4: had the facts right in front of me and you

1639
01:30:24,760 --> 01:30:26,720
Speaker 4: got every single one, Right are you?

1640
01:30:26,760 --> 01:30:30,840
Speaker 3: Serious? Yeah what about cooling off? Period the longer the

1641
01:30:30,840 --> 01:30:31,360
Speaker 3: cooling off?

1642
01:30:31,400 --> 01:30:34,280
Speaker 4: Period and tell everyone BECAUSE i was newer to the

1643
01:30:34,320 --> 01:30:36,519
Speaker 4: world of true crime and didn't know what cooling off.

1644
01:30:36,640 --> 01:30:39,000
Speaker 4: Is so In layman's, terms for people out there who

1645
01:30:39,000 --> 01:30:41,479
Speaker 4: may not know what cooling off, is it's just the

1646
01:30:41,840 --> 01:30:42,200
Speaker 4: gap in.

1647
01:30:42,280 --> 01:30:45,960
Speaker 3: Time it's the one murder to the next and where

1648
01:30:45,960 --> 01:30:49,240
Speaker 3: they go and basically put a mask on and live

1649
01:30:49,280 --> 01:30:53,160
Speaker 3: a normal life after they've committed horrible. Atrocities.

1650
01:30:53,240 --> 01:30:56,120
Speaker 2: Yeah and in the case Of Dennis, radar his what

1651
01:30:56,200 --> 01:30:58,840
Speaker 2: he was doing was he was a church, Leader he

1652
01:30:58,880 --> 01:31:02,360
Speaker 2: was a true, leader as a family. Man he was

1653
01:31:02,439 --> 01:31:06,639
Speaker 2: all of the. Above, yeah and a brutal.

1654
01:31:07,600 --> 01:31:15,040
Speaker 3: Murderer he has a family And carrie his, daughter and,

1655
01:31:15,400 --> 01:31:18,719
Speaker 3: she uh you, know is a is a public speaker

1656
01:31:18,840 --> 01:31:22,920
Speaker 3: in how you, know basically having a murderer for a

1657
01:31:23,000 --> 01:31:26,800
Speaker 3: father has shaped her and you, know, anyway it's very,

1658
01:31:26,800 --> 01:31:29,760
Speaker 3: interesting it's Very i'm gonna watch it for. Sure we're

1659
01:31:29,760 --> 01:31:31,000
Speaker 3: gonna have to get, together and we can't make a

1660
01:31:31,000 --> 01:31:35,200
Speaker 3: decision Without, stephanie by the, way with her other friends right, now, RIGHT.

1661
01:31:35,680 --> 01:31:38,920
Speaker 4: I, Know, well we'll decide when she's. Here but those

1662
01:31:38,920 --> 01:31:41,679
Speaker 4: are two. Options there's some others in the. Mix maybe

1663
01:31:41,720 --> 01:31:43,719
Speaker 4: when she joins, us we'll play a couple.

1664
01:31:43,760 --> 01:31:45,720
Speaker 3: More, yeah let's do. That so maybe tomorrow wee can

1665
01:31:45,760 --> 01:31:49,559
Speaker 3: play the other talk. Box, yeah we'll do, That so

1666
01:31:49,760 --> 01:31:51,559
Speaker 3: we can. Pick but so Far i'm leaning.

1667
01:31:51,320 --> 01:31:54,720
Speaker 4: Towards that BT k because that is a little bit

1668
01:31:54,720 --> 01:31:58,040
Speaker 4: BECAUSE i didn't know much about that case i met,

1669
01:31:58,120 --> 01:32:01,560
Speaker 4: you and it's it's something about the serial killers that

1670
01:32:01,640 --> 01:32:04,400
Speaker 4: walk in our every. Day, yeah it's light that JUST

1671
01:32:04,600 --> 01:32:06,360
Speaker 4: i just can't wrap my head, around and SO i

1672
01:32:06,439 --> 01:32:07,719
Speaker 4: just want to try to understand.

1673
01:32:07,720 --> 01:32:09,240
Speaker 3: IT i Know i'm the.

1674
01:32:09,200 --> 01:32:12,519
Speaker 2: Same, way ALTHOUGH i will say The alabama solution as,

1675
01:32:12,560 --> 01:32:15,360
Speaker 2: well SOUNDS i would love to like that. ONE i

1676
01:32:15,479 --> 01:32:17,840
Speaker 2: one hundred percent will be watching for even if it's

1677
01:32:17,840 --> 01:32:22,160
Speaker 2: my own, edification you, know because that sounds really.

1678
01:32:22,280 --> 01:32:25,600
Speaker 3: Important it, does and it's something THAT i you, Know

1679
01:32:25,640 --> 01:32:28,240
Speaker 3: i've been talking about pretty for a long, time like

1680
01:32:28,280 --> 01:32:31,960
Speaker 3: prisoner reform and not for profit prisons and for profit

1681
01:32:32,040 --> 01:32:34,639
Speaker 3: prisons and how the prisoners are. Treated you, know don't

1682
01:32:34,640 --> 01:32:36,800
Speaker 3: get me, startain But i'm definitely interested in both of,

1683
01:32:36,840 --> 01:32:39,640
Speaker 3: those like one hundred. Percent i'll watch them both. ANYWAY i,

1684
01:32:39,680 --> 01:32:41,280
Speaker 3: Know i'll watch to make. Anyway So i'm up for

1685
01:32:41,360 --> 01:32:45,080
Speaker 3: either one. PERSONALLY i love. It, yeah that's good. Choices,

1686
01:32:45,160 --> 01:32:47,400
Speaker 3: well we did so good Without, stephanie who's out.

1687
01:32:47,320 --> 01:32:53,720
Speaker 2: WITH i Love yeah, ANYWAY i love this ideo.

1688
01:32:53,800 --> 01:32:56,680
Speaker 3: Stay around for tomorrow we're going to be diving into

1689
01:32:56,840 --> 01:32:59,920
Speaker 3: The Brian walsh murder trial and shocking new charges against.

1690
01:32:59,920 --> 01:33:03,120
Speaker 3: You was c grad student plus Producer Alan water from

1691
01:33:03,160 --> 01:33:05,879
Speaker 3: The Donut Shop, burners, Goodnight thank you for joining Us

1692
01:33:05,880 --> 01:33:06,360
Speaker 3: True crime.

1693
01:33:06,400 --> 01:33:07,280
Speaker 2: Tonight Good, night