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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm welcome to stuff

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Speaker 1: I never told you Production by Heart Radio, and today

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Speaker 1: we are bringing back a classic that's relatively new. But

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Speaker 1: we talked about it in our recent end of the

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Speaker 1: year roundup of our favorite episodes, and it is our

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Speaker 1: interview with Michelle Norris. I just loved it. I thought

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Speaker 1: the conversation was so fantastic. I am kind of all

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Speaker 1: struck by her. I grew up listening to her with

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Speaker 1: my mom in the kitchen, So for her to have

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Speaker 1: a podcast called Your Mama's Kitchen, it just feels very Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it feels really perfect me. And it's so moving, Like

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Speaker 1: every episode is so moving. And she's done so much.

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Speaker 1: She's been NPR, she did the Race Card project, and

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Speaker 1: so we just have so much to talk about. As

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Speaker 1: mentioned in that end of the year wrap up, we

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Speaker 1: did discuss the mac and cheese and we did do it.

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Speaker 2: Pictures of it mine, I I froze.

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Speaker 1: Some of mine and I've looked it up. It should

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Speaker 1: still be good. What a year, Yeah, because it was

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Speaker 1: a Super Bowl, we were getting the big game, don't

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Speaker 1: sue me. Yes, I looked it up and it said

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Speaker 1: it probably won't taste good, but it's not going to

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Speaker 1: actually do any damage.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, as we've watched more and more like Zombie or

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Speaker 2: ind of World movies, I often think about like, but

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Speaker 2: we're gonna regret it, like things that we wish we

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Speaker 2: had even if it had been that old. I have

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Speaker 2: had those thoughts lately in that just popped in my

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Speaker 2: head without macaroni cheese, even though I'm like, you don't

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Speaker 2: eat it now, but at the same time, eat it

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Speaker 2: now because you might it might be dead, And you.

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Speaker 1: Know, I have kind of the opposite issue of I

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Speaker 1: might start the zombie back ups. It's like, this is fine.

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Speaker 2: Fun's the carrier all.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure Michelle Norris will be like, you know a

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Speaker 1: lot about food, but no, this was a lovely episode

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Speaker 1: and please enjoy it. Hey, this is Anny and Samantha.

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Speaker 1: We're welcome to stuff I've never told you, protection by

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Speaker 1: hurried you, and today we have an interview for you

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Speaker 1: that we were so excited to share. As you know,

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Speaker 1: we often nerd out to perhaps get nervous fangirl over

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Speaker 1: amazing women who have done amazing things, and this was

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Speaker 1: one of those instances because we were fortunate enough to

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Speaker 1: get to interview Michelle Norris, and I'm still like, we're

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Speaker 1: recording this separately because she's really busy and was covering

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Speaker 1: a hearing in Washington, d C. In the middle like

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Speaker 1: she was like, I gotta go to get to this hearing,

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Speaker 1: right And she took the time to talk with us,

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Speaker 1: and it was amazing And it was an amazing conversation. We

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Speaker 1: have so much more we wanted to talk about, didn't

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Speaker 1: have the time. But hopefully, Samantha, you really you really

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Speaker 1: put down the seeds.

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Speaker 2: I was really trying real hard. I'm like, I want,

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Speaker 2: I need this conversation to keep going. So I'm going

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Speaker 2: to put a teaser out bait her hopefully and how

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Speaker 2: she'll want to come back on. But you also did

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Speaker 2: a good job with the mac and cheese, Like a

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Speaker 2: wa need to follow up with that anyway, yeahs obviously.

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Speaker 1: Yes, you're gonna have to listen to learn about the

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Speaker 1: maca cheeese. But Michelle Norris, if you don't know who

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Speaker 1: she is, she has done amazing work. She was a

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Speaker 1: correspondent for ABC News in the nineties and early two thousands.

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Speaker 1: She got a Peabody for her coverage of nine to eleven.

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Speaker 1: She was the first black woman to host NPR of

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Speaker 1: All Things Considered, and she's done so much more than that.

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Speaker 1: She's got the Race Card Project, which you can learn

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Speaker 1: more about at the Racecardproject dot com. She's got a

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Speaker 1: book that came out called Our Hidden Conversations, What Americans

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Speaker 1: Really Think about Race and Identity. She's got a memoir

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Speaker 1: called The Grace of Silence. She has done so much.

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Speaker 1: Really check her out and she's really really she's just

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Speaker 1: someone who's so curious. And even in this interview, we

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Speaker 1: kept getting kind of caught in her interviewing us. And

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Speaker 1: I grew up my mom loves All Things Considered, and

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Speaker 1: I kind of talk about it in this episode, but

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Speaker 1: we would listen to it in the kitchen while we

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Speaker 1: were cooking, and my mom when I was lucky enough

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Speaker 1: to interview Michelle Norris on other podcasts, I do Saver

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Speaker 1: and at the end, she did the thing she does,

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Speaker 1: which is ask you a question. And I was talking

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Speaker 1: about my mom in my mom's kitchen because this question

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Speaker 1: just brings out so much in you. And my mom

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Speaker 1: listened to that episode and was so moved by it

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Speaker 1: and so like, oh my gosh, I can't believe that

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Speaker 1: this person I was listening to in the kitchen is

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Speaker 1: talking about my experience in the kitchen. It was really sweet.

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Speaker 1: It was a very sweet thing. So I'm very moved

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Speaker 1: by that. And we had a million things we wanted

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Speaker 1: to talk about we didn't get to. I would say

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Speaker 1: one of the things we didn't get to is that

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Speaker 1: you can you can find her her book and read

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Speaker 1: more about it. But her grandmother was someone who was

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Speaker 1: one of the performers who went around and portrayed Aunt Jemima,

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Speaker 1: who cooked and portrayed Aunt Jemima. It's really fascinating. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, Samantha, I'm sure you could speak more to it,

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Speaker 1: but it was difficult to limit our questions.

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Speaker 2: Or there's so much she's doing so much. I think

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Speaker 2: that's the bigger portion is like the amount of content

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Speaker 2: she has is overwhelming, especially in the last year, like

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Speaker 2: just in the last year alone, and we were trying

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Speaker 2: to kind of kind of just keep it in that

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Speaker 2: realm because she also is a fabulous storyteller, as she

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Speaker 2: will say it, and a story collector, and I don't

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Speaker 2: think there's any other way to describe her because like

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Speaker 2: just being a journalist, which is a big feat in

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Speaker 2: it self like all of that, it's not enough to

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Speaker 2: describe her, like it's not who she is what she does.

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Speaker 2: So it was a phenomenal conversation and she does so

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Speaker 2: well in giving intense questions but in the simplistic way

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Speaker 2: that opens up so many doors. And it was beautiful. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and we definitely were like, no, I'm not telling you this.

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Speaker 2: You have to come back, because she was trying to interview,

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Speaker 2: plit the tables on us. At one boy, she said,

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Speaker 2: I'm sitting on my hands trying not to ask you

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Speaker 2: more questions, follow up questions. I was like, no, ma'am,

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Speaker 2: we're not doing this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's the beauty of when a podcast

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Speaker 1: is at what I personally think is at its best,

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Speaker 1: is that curiosity that like, I want to know more,

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Speaker 1: let me listen, tell the story, let me collect the story,

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Speaker 1: let me tell the story, like all of those things.

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Speaker 1: So with all of that, let us get in to

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Speaker 1: our interview with Michelle Norris. So today we are so

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Speaker 1: thrilled and excited to be joined by Michelle Norris. I'm

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Speaker 1: honestly like, I'm so excited to talk with you. Can

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Speaker 1: you introduce yourself to our audience?

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Speaker 3: Hi, Hello. First, Hello Sam and Annie. So good to be.

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Speaker 1: With you, So good to be We're so excited.

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Speaker 3: I am. My name is Michelle Norris. I am a

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Speaker 3: storyteller and a story collector. I'm a storyteller in that

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Speaker 3: I am a longtime journalist. I am a senior contributing

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Speaker 3: editor at MSNBC. Prior to that, I was a columnist

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Speaker 3: at The Washington Post. I've worked. I worked for ten

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Speaker 3: years as a host of a little show on NPR

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Speaker 3: called All Things Considered, and before that worked at ABC

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Speaker 3: News and the Chicago La Times and The Washington Post

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Speaker 3: earlier in my career. So longtime storyteller. For the last

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Speaker 3: fifteen years, I've been a story collector. I run something

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Speaker 3: called the Race Car Project, where I collect stories from

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Speaker 3: people about race and identity that begin with just six words.

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Speaker 3: So they start with a little microburst and they often

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Speaker 3: grow into something bigger. And I now host a podcast

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Speaker 3: called Your Mama's Kitchen, where I collect stories from fairly

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Speaker 3: famous people who tell me about how the kitchens that

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Speaker 3: they grew up in shaped the people that they became.

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Speaker 3: And the theory of the case there is that the

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Speaker 3: kitchens are incubators. As Conan O'Brien said, it's like the

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Speaker 3: killing where the bricks are made. You learn about justice

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Speaker 3: and generosity and grace and grievance and all kinds of

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Speaker 3: things in the kitchen. A lot more goes on in

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Speaker 3: the kitchen beyond nutrition.

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Speaker 2: Your podcasts and just the way you described your work

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Speaker 2: and who you are the story collector, that's exactly the

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Speaker 2: perfect description of what you do. It's not just a conversation,

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Speaker 2: it's not just a podcast, it's not just a book.

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Speaker 2: It seems that your work in its entirety, even though

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Speaker 2: the basis and your education and your background is journalism,

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Speaker 2: it is story collecting. It is storytelling, and you do

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Speaker 2: a beautiful job and relaying different people's different backgrounds stories

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Speaker 2: in such a way that you feel like you know

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Speaker 2: these people, which really like tugs. I think I was

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Speaker 2: gushing right before. I know I was gushing right before

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Speaker 2: we got onto record about your ability to talk to

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Speaker 2: people in such a way and ask the questions that

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Speaker 2: are seemingly so simple, like you literally said, give me

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Speaker 2: six words about race, and you gave out postcards, and I,

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Speaker 2: by the way, that format is so Roman romantic to me,

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Speaker 2: it just got me. I was like, yes, and you're

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Speaker 2: talking about how you put them in bibles. Don't think

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Speaker 2: I didn't know what you were doing. I love that

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Speaker 2: you did that, but.

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Speaker 3: We should explain that.

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Speaker 2: We should.

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Speaker 3: So I developed the race Card Project while I was

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Speaker 3: on a thirty five city book tour. And I developed

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Speaker 3: the race car Project in part because I wrote a

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Speaker 3: book about my family's very complex racial legacy, called The

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Speaker 3: Grace of Silence, and I knew I would be going

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Speaker 3: out in the world talking to people about race and

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Speaker 3: I thought no one wanted to have that conversation. So

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Speaker 3: the race Card Project was created to create an entry

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Speaker 3: point with postcards. Just give me a postcard with your

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Speaker 3: six words on it. And I had to figure out

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Speaker 3: how to distribute the postcards. And so when I was

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Speaker 3: traveling across the country, I was leaving them in the

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Speaker 3: back of airline, you know, little little marsupio pouch. I

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Speaker 3: was leaving them in the airline pouch. I was leaving them,

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Speaker 3: and restaurants, I was leaving them behind mind on tables

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Speaker 3: and in hotels where the Bible comes in the nightstand.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's often a little Bible in the nightstand,

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Speaker 3: And so I put postcards in the Bible so I

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Speaker 3: figured if somebody was like, you know, meaning a good word,

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Speaker 3: that they were trying to find the palm psalmer proverb. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I would fall a post card.

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Speaker 2: I mean to be honest in my mind if I

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Speaker 2: had found a postcard in the Bible, which I don't

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Speaker 2: necessarily looked at them, but every now and then you're like,

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Speaker 2: there it is. You're like, what did the Mormons want

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Speaker 2: from me? Like what are these questions that the Mormons

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Speaker 2: are asking me? But no, it was such a fascinating

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Speaker 2: and amazing beginning. And like I said, I love like postcards.

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Speaker 2: Those are so romantic, and I love that in general.

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Speaker 2: But you have an amazing way of transforming people's stories

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Speaker 2: into this beautiful, beautiful narrative where you just feel that

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Speaker 2: you feel where there's these where they people are coming

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Speaker 2: from and the hurt, the beauty of finding themselves. Like,

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Speaker 2: this's such an amazing thing. And you have taken that

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Speaker 2: all the way from again postcards. Of course, you've been

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Speaker 2: a journalist, You've done this. Now you're here at podcasting

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Speaker 2: and you do the same thing. You do the same

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Speaker 2: thing with that question, tell me about your mama's kitchen.

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Speaker 2: So can you talk to us a little bit about

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Speaker 2: this podcast and what it's about and how you got here.

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Speaker 3: Well, isn't it interesting? That's that's I was reminded when

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Speaker 3: I was in San Antonio recently that even that question

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Speaker 3: is six words, tell me about your mama's kitchen. I

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Speaker 3: never put that put the two together. But the idea

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Speaker 3: for the podcast grew out of my work in public radio.

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Speaker 3: And you two live behind the microphone, so you understand

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Speaker 3: that you want people to talk a little bit before

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Speaker 3: you are off to the racist and you start recording

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Speaker 3: your show, and it's something called a mic check. And

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Speaker 3: at NPR, the standard question for the mic check was

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Speaker 3: what did you have for breakfast? Samantha Wood, you have breakfast.

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Speaker 2: I haven't had breakfast coffee.

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Speaker 3: Okay, that's see, that's the issue. Ms Reese, what did

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Speaker 3: you have for breakfast coffee? Okay? So no one talks

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Speaker 3: en up, right. You never have the person who says, oh, girl,

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Speaker 3: I had French toast and it was dredged in eggs

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Speaker 3: that were harvested down the road, and it was dusted

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Speaker 3: with cinnamon sugar, and I had it along with some

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Speaker 3: beautifully scrambled eggs and some country fried bacon and I

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Speaker 3: had a glass of no one says that, they say coffee,

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Speaker 3: they say nothing, they say toast, they say oat mill.

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Speaker 3: And it's never enough time for people to talk. And

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Speaker 3: so I started asking odd ball questions. Do you use

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Speaker 3: paper or plastic when you go to the grocery store?

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Speaker 3: What did you do for fun on a Saturday night?

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Speaker 3: Tell me about your first summer job. What is your

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Speaker 3: favorite pair of shoes? And why all of them were?

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Speaker 3: You know, you'd learn something about someone and you would

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Speaker 3: get them talking a lot more. But the one that

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Speaker 3: was the gold the golden question was tell me about

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Speaker 3: your mama's kitchen. Because people would go to a different

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Speaker 3: place in their head and they would start talking. And

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Speaker 3: even if it wasn't a good experience, you know, they

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Speaker 3: just it just rendered the pot. It just got them looselimmed,

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Speaker 3: and it made for different conversation once we got into

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Speaker 3: whatever we were talking about. I mean, even if we

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Speaker 3: were talking about, you know, military expenditures, it was it

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Speaker 3: was just a deeper, richer, better conversation because we loosened

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Speaker 3: the guest up. And I always thought that that would

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Speaker 3: be a great idea for a podcast, and then I

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Speaker 3: wound up connecting with the good people at Higher Ground Media,

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Speaker 3: which is the production company that is owned by Barack

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Speaker 3: and Michelle Obama, and the light bulbs went off and

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Speaker 3: we said, let's create a really wonderful podcast around this.

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Speaker 3: And the theory of the case was that we become

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Speaker 3: who we are in the kitchen. And it's interesting how

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Speaker 3: we asked this question to all these different guests, same question,

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Speaker 3: a bunch of different guests, and it goes in completely

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Speaker 3: different directions. You know, there's no there are a few redundancies,

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Speaker 3: but even so there's difference even if the experience is similar.

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Speaker 3: And so I know, it's an interesting experience for the listener.

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Speaker 3: And it sure is a heck of a lot of

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Speaker 3: fun from me to get to know people in a

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Speaker 3: different way because often these are famous people, they've done

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Speaker 3: lots of interviews. But we learned things that no one

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Speaker 3: else has heard before because we're entering through a different door.

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Speaker 2: Right, I mean listening to Michelle Obama talking about how

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Speaker 2: much she didn't like eggs.

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Speaker 4: She like anything, Yes, I was like I would have

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Speaker 4: not imagined.

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Speaker 3: And you know, and missus Robinson, who's recently gone to glory,

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Speaker 3: we both lost our moms right around this in the

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Speaker 3: same week, actually right around the same time. Was a

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Speaker 3: tough cookie. I mean, she was a very you know,

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Speaker 3: disciplined woman, but she indulged a little. Michelle Obama said, baby,

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Speaker 3: if you want a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, that's

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Speaker 3: what we're going to give you. I Mean, the piece

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Speaker 3: of that episode that I really appreciated was when she

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Speaker 3: talked about her cousin who came who went off and

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Speaker 3: came back with all these radical ideas about what a

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Speaker 3: woman could and should do. And you also learn about

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Speaker 3: those sort of smaller characters in someone's life. She probably

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Speaker 3: wound up having a really big influence on Michelle Obama

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Speaker 3: and who she became and how she saw the world.

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Speaker 3: And you know, because Chicago is basically like being in

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Speaker 3: the South. If you're on the South side of Chicago,

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Speaker 3: it's you know, black people who all came from the South,

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Speaker 3: brought Southern values, Southern ideas with them about all kinds

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Speaker 3: of things, religion, gender, race, and then when people started

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Speaker 3: to break out of those cocoons and explore bigger worlds

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Speaker 3: and then bring those ideas back, they were not often

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Speaker 3: met with an open armed embrace. What'd you talk about?

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Speaker 3: You know, trying to shake up the world order, you know,

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Speaker 3: and and that was she had never talked about that before,

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Speaker 3: you know, And so it was really interesting and I

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Speaker 3: spent you know, a lot of time with her. I've

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Speaker 3: interviewed her over years. I've read her books, I've traveled

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Speaker 3: with her on book tour, I've read a bunch of

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Speaker 3: her interviews. And that was like new material that helped

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Speaker 3: us understand her origin story.

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Speaker 2: I love that. Yeah, and I love that beginning you

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Speaker 2: talked about feminism in the kitchen and you actually brought

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Speaker 2: that up into it, and I was like, here we go,

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Speaker 2: here we go, and talking about the growth of the

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Speaker 2: matriarch and what feminism was then was just the mere

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Speaker 2: fact that, yes, the household was run by women and

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Speaker 2: there was no plan about But then you had the

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Speaker 2: cousin coming in talk about a different narrative of like, no,

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Speaker 2: I'm not coming here to serve you, this is not

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Speaker 2: this is not happening. It was such an amazing conversation.

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Speaker 3: But all you can to understand that in a black

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Speaker 3: household in the nineteen sixties, for a young women to

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Speaker 3: come in and say I'm not here to serve you, thunderclass.

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Speaker 2: You know that was a silent moment.

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Speaker 4: Everybody is what's going to happen here, you know, But

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Speaker 4: that that that theme comes up over and over and

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Speaker 4: over again because.

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Speaker 3: For some of us of a certain age, feminism came

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Speaker 3: along and changed the world underneath our mother's feet, I mean,

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Speaker 3: the world shifted. They had made choices or choices were

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Speaker 3: foisted upon them, and then suddenly things were different or

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Speaker 3: there was the possibility of things being different. But there's

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Speaker 3: a group of women that were sort of caught, you know,

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Speaker 3: in the middle of seeing a possibility of change but

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Speaker 3: not being able to execute on that because of where

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Speaker 3: they were stuck, you know, in that timeline. But at

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Speaker 3: the same time, we've also learned that for some women,

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Speaker 3: the idea of feminism was interesting because the kitchen was

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Speaker 3: their domain and it was the one place where they

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Speaker 3: could be fully in control, right and in other spaces

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Speaker 3: they couldn't, But the kitchen was one place where they

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Speaker 3: could be in control. And then for some women, and

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Speaker 3: I'm finding particularly for women of color, was a case

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Speaker 3: where the idea of feminism not even you know, within

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Speaker 3: the kitchen or outside of it, but the idea of

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Speaker 3: feminism was interesting because in some spaces, particularly educated when

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Speaker 3: we were fighting to have a home and family, to

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Speaker 3: have a home, family and work, to work outside the home,

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Speaker 3: and for a lot of women of color or women

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Speaker 3: women who were of working class or lower it's like, well,

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Speaker 3: we've been doing that all along, right, the struggle is real,

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Speaker 3: but so is the juggle, right, you know, we have

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Speaker 3: we have already been doing this exact and to be

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Speaker 3: able to explore that through a child's eyes from someone

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Speaker 3: who is now an adult has been really really interesting.

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Speaker 3: I mean, Terry Jones. I don't know if you listen

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Speaker 3: to that episode, but that was another example. She went

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Speaker 3: to college and it blew her mind and she just thought,

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Speaker 3: I am never going to be that person. I love

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Speaker 3: my mom, but I am never going to be that person.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to cook. And now she's a cook

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Speaker 3: and fool she makes cakes on you know, all the time.

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Speaker 3: But there was a she had to figure out, how

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Speaker 3: do I do this without it being subservient? Right, how

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Speaker 3: do I do this on my own terms? And realizing

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Speaker 3: that her mother had made a beautiful home for the family,

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Speaker 3: but also realizing that wondering what kind of sacrifices that

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Speaker 3: she made right right in order to create that space

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Speaker 3: and did she had to subjugate her own ambitions right

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Speaker 3: or sort of pretzel twist herself to fit into a mold.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you definitely mentioned about having it all in

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Speaker 2: that false narrative in itself and how it can feel

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Speaker 2: overwhelming in that whole level, like you do want to

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Speaker 2: be the perfect cook and have the perfect home. And

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Speaker 2: the narrative was for the longest time that if you're

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Speaker 2: not doing these things, you're not fulfilling your role as

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Speaker 2: a true woman, as a good woman, uh, not having

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Speaker 2: that perfect household as well as juggling the perfect job,

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Speaker 2: and like rising up in that industry to make sure

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Speaker 2: that you are showing that a woman can do this.

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Speaker 2: Like all of these narratives.

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Speaker 3: I have two thoughts on that. I am fascinated by

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Speaker 3: old magazines, old emity magazines, old calls magazines old and

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Speaker 3: the idea of prof Who were these people who were

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Speaker 3: who were like pushing the idea of perfection on women,

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Speaker 3: Like you couldn't just serve jello. It had to come

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Speaker 3: in a mold and it had to be topped, It

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Speaker 3: had to be ambrosia, It had to have like stuff

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Speaker 3: on top of it. You couldn't just serve lemonade. It

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Speaker 3: had to have like little grown wedges of lemons with

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Speaker 3: Maraschino cherries in it. I mean, who were these people

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Speaker 3: who were forcing you know, this idea of womanhood on

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Speaker 3: I would love, you know, not like I have all

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Speaker 3: the time in the world, but part of me wants

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Speaker 3: to go back and go inside those editorial pages. You know,

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Speaker 3: you look at the editorial page like who was this?

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Speaker 3: How did they come up with these ideas? Did they

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Speaker 3: live lives of perfections themselves? Or were were they doing

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Speaker 3: this to women? They were going home and you know

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Speaker 3: and eating boiled eggs for dinner because they you know,

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Speaker 3: if you were doing this and you were a woman,

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Speaker 3: you were working yourself and raising a family. Or was

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Speaker 3: there secretly a cabal of men, you know, who were

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Speaker 3: coming up with these ideas and forcing it on women?

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Speaker 3: And then even into the nineteen seventies, I mean Michellebaum

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Speaker 3: and I talked about this in her episode that Angelie

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Speaker 3: ad that add about you can bring home the bacon, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: fry it up in the pan and never let them

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Speaker 3: forget you're a man. And when I was an NPR,

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Speaker 3: I actually thought about doing this, and I because we

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Speaker 3: can so all things, and I actually thought about doing

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Speaker 3: it and I just never have and maybe after this conversation,

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Speaker 3: I should actually go ahead and do it, because I

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Speaker 3: actually wanted to find the person and talk to them

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Speaker 3: who came up with that ad, you know, I wanted

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Speaker 3: to actually talk to them. And it was at about perfume.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't even about food, you know, And it's and

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Speaker 3: she's got a trench coat on. You should go back

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Speaker 3: and look at the you can find it.

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Speaker 2: On you I know you're talking about it. She has

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Speaker 2: held this vague memory.

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Speaker 3: Of that, yes, and she's you know, and that she

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Speaker 3: takes it off and she's got like that Keana dress

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Speaker 3: on and you know, and then the idea is that

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Speaker 3: she's frying at bacon, and I guess the implication is

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Speaker 3: that the dress is going to come off and she's

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Speaker 3: going to go, you know, make somebody happy.

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Speaker 2: But she can do all that and still make bacon.

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Speaker 3: And still be perfect and smell good because she's wearing

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Speaker 3: an Julie.

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Speaker 2: Well, she don't smell at macon. Yeah. We actually had

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Speaker 2: a conversation because we had this similar with my partner's

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Speaker 2: mother talking about how like southern and magazines really messed

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Speaker 2: her up and saying that she had to make the

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Speaker 2: perfect Christmas or she was failing as a mother and

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Speaker 2: a wife. Like she held that for the longest time.

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Speaker 2: And I'm like, what is this culture that has done this?

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Speaker 2: And you are right as men and capitalism that's what

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Speaker 2: it like simple terms.

434
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:19,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I have I have theories about this.

435
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 3: I think that you know, I think that they were

436
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 3: just trying to figure out at a post war period

437
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:25,879
Speaker 3: how to create new roles for people, you know, And

438
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 3: I think that that's why men were There was a

439
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:29,679
Speaker 3: whole culture of men mowing.

440
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:30,919
Speaker 4: Lawns, and I think it was frankly to get them

441
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 4: out of the house. Yes, you know, go mow the lawn,

442
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 4: Go do something.

443
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 3: Go do something, just so you're not home like lording

444
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 3: over everybody else and think of break. Maybe that's why

445
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 3: fishing culture grew also, get out of the house.

446
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I love this. I really want you

447
00:25:47,760 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 1: to do this, becaure because I need to know. For me,

448
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 1: the kitchen has always been kind of a fraught space

449
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: of like, I enjoyed the time with my mom, but

450
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 1: then like I guess the men and my family's felt

451
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 1: bad and so they would come in and start talking

452
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:19,159
Speaker 1: to us, and I'm like, no, I don't want you

453
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 1: to be in here. If you're not gonna help, like,

454
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 1: then get out. But I actually do enjoy the cooking

455
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 1: part with my mom. But it's also one of my

456
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 1: earliest memories of getting really angry is I'm like, I

457
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:31,920
Speaker 1: don't get what you're expected to do this. I don't

458
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 1: understand it. And I feel like the kitchen, as you

459
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 1: mentioned it's been, it's the space where you learn so

460
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 1: much because it's the kitchen table is like a place

461
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 1: where the bills are building up, or the homework is

462
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,160
Speaker 1: being done, or the arguments are being had or all

463
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 1: of these things, and it's just when you look back

464
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 1: at it, you're completely right. It makes so much sense.

465
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 1: People have all these stories that maybe they're like, oh,

466
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 1: I haven't thought about that in a long time because

467
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: I wasn't processing it then, but now I am. And

468
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: the kitchen has become a really political space. It is

469
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 1: like one of the I've tried to get to the

470
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 1: bottom of this, Michelle, is why do we still tell

471
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 1: women to get back to the kitchen or go make

472
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 1: a sandwich today? Like, why is that still one of

473
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 1: our biggest.

474
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know we're talking right now, and there's actually

475
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 3: a hearing going on in Washington, d C. Where Nominee

476
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 3: is being questioned about, you know, denigating the idea of

477
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 3: women in combat and the idea that women should be

478
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 3: moms and not in combat, as if you can't be both,

479
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 3: you know, both things. I think it's so interesting that

480
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:45,479
Speaker 3: you understood gender dynamics in your house at such an

481
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 3: early age because of what happened in the kitchen. What

482
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 3: did you learn about that? What did you divine from that?

483
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,919
Speaker 1: At the time, I was very I just thought it

484
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 1: was unfair. I remember thinking, like in a very childish

485
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:09,719
Speaker 1: I don't have like the understanding necessarily to define why.

486
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: But I thought it was unfair because she would be

487
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,719
Speaker 1: like sitting down and my little brother would ask her, like,

488
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 1: can you go get me something that he could have done.

489
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: He could have just done it, but she would get

490
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: up and do it, and she was like, no, it

491
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: doesn't bother, it's easy. She wasn't upset by it, but

492
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: I there was something in me that was like, I

493
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 1: just don't like this. I don't get why he can't

494
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 1: just do it. And I felt like I would have

495
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,880
Speaker 1: gotten up and done it. I wouldn't have asked her,

496
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 1: And so there's just something in me that was, like,

497
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 1: I thought it was unfair.

498
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 3: I guess is this And it's so deep because for

499
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 3: some people it may be just a natural There are

500
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 3: people who really get get great pleasure out of serving people,

501
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 3: you know, and I totally understand that I probably fall

502
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 3: within that category, cooking as an act of love, you know,

503
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 3: presenting aqut to people as a act of love. But

504
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 3: there also is an element of keeping the peace, you know,

505
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 3: and there is an element of keeping up with the culture,

506
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 3: you know, the cultural expectations, and then there's just you know,

507
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 3: there's so much that goes into this. When I was

508
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 3: writing my first book, I came upon this book about

509
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 3: the Great Migration, but it was written through the prism

510
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 3: of marriage and the pressures around people who were trying

511
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 3: to figure out how to make it in new environments,

512
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 3: who had fled, who were refugees from the Jim crowsout

513
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 3: and brought all that trauma along with them because they

514
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 3: had escaped terrorism. I mean, let's just be honest about that.

515
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 3: They were running towards something better, but going out into

516
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 3: the world and having to deal with all the outside

517
00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 3: pressures particularly around race and around finances, and around inequality,

518
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 3: and not ever being able to be fully who you

519
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 3: have the potential to be because of the strictures that

520
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 3: keep you from doing that, and the double stricts that

521
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 3: keep you from doing that as a person of color

522
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 3: and a woman of color. And then coming home, and

523
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 3: the book talked about that home was often the one place.

524
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 3: We talked about the kitchen being the one place where

525
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 3: a woman had there, you know, had filled domain. Well,

526
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 3: the home was the one place in a heteronormative marriage

527
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 3: where the man had filled domain. And so all the

528
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 3: outside expectations, all the pressures would come home and you know,

529
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 3: Nikki Giovanni, we just lost. And that wonderful exchange with

530
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 3: Nikki Giovanni and James Baldwin where she's talking about fake

531
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 3: it for me, Like you go out in the world

532
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 3: and you smile, and you figure out how to go

533
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 3: along and get along because you have to go along,

534
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 3: and you come home and you you have the benefit

535
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 3: of letting your hair down and being your full self

536
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 3: and bringing all that anger home with you. But sometimes

537
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 3: I wish you would just fake it for me. So

538
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 3: I'm not the repository of all of that you know,

539
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 3: anger and frustration, and the kitchen was often you know,

540
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 3: I imagine it probably played out in the bedroom, and

541
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 3: it probably played out in the driveway, and it probably

542
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 3: played out in the car on the way to church

543
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 3: or whatever, but the kitchen was definitely a place where

544
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 3: that played out. And as the kids, you know, you

545
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 3: didn't see what happened in the kitchen. You maybe saw

546
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 3: what happened in the front seat of the car, but

547
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 3: you saw the back of their heads, so you weren't

548
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 3: seeing the sideways glances, you know, and all the stuff

549
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 3: that happens. But the kitchen is everything is on full display,

550
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 3: so you're seeing, you know, everything, and it winds up

551
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 3: being a certain kind of education for the family members

552
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 3: who are in the kitchen, for the kids, for the

553
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 3: mother in law who's visiting, for the neighbor who's you know,

554
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 3: checking everybody out, you know, and the kind of inside voice,

555
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 3: outside voice. I mean, another thing that comes up in

556
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,239
Speaker 3: the episodes over and over and over again, regardless of

557
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 3: what kind of kitchen we're talking about, is people talk

558
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 3: about the moms phone voice. Do you know what I'm

559
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 3: talking about?

560
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,719
Speaker 4: Your mom was talking and then you know, fussing at

561
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 4: the kids speaking in a certain octave, and then the

562
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 4: telephone rings Hello. That just goes away, you know, like suddenly,

563
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 4: you know you better get yourself downstairs and get it

564
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 4: together and get out the door.

565
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 3: But Hello, switch it.

566
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 2: Up, just like yeah, yeah, I I have so many

567
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 2: memories with the kitchen. When you were talking and asking

568
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 2: about the kitchen and what it looked like, tell me

569
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 2: about the setup of the kitchen, of your mom's kitchen,

570
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 2: and I remembered immediately, like when I was young coming in.

571
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 2: I was adopted at seven, so I was somewhat older

572
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 2: learning English. But one of the things that I love

573
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 2: to do. The way that my parents' kitchen was set

574
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 2: up was the stove and the oven or next to

575
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 2: each other, but it like had a little nook thing

576
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 2: in between the dining room and the kitchen, so I

577
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 2: could sit on the other side of the stove to

578
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 2: watch my mother cook whatever it was cooking, and I

579
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 2: would sit and have a conversation with her, whether I

580
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 2: was singing to her about some made up song I

581
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 2: had for the day, or telling her what happened at

582
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 2: school or to that she would she would listen, like

583
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:22,959
Speaker 2: you know, she did, uh huh uh huh, but I

584
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 2: just remembered that memory so much because I was so

585
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 2: they renovated it and they took that down and that

586
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 2: was very hurt, like they did.

587
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 1: Uh.

588
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 2: But on top of that, that's also how my mom

589
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 2: realized one time that she forgot me because I wasn't

590
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 2: present while she was cooking, that she was supposed to

591
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 2: pick me up somewhere. But all of those stories, it

592
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 2: does feel like that kitchen is this moment of core

593
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 2: memory of my childhood. Like my childhood was good. There

594
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 2: was a lot of trauma like most people, I think

595
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 2: in general, but like there was a lot of trauma

596
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 2: in trying to figure out my identity. But one of

597
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 2: the things that I loved was feeling connected to my

598
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 2: mother in that moment to seeing her cooking and she

599
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 2: wasn't she wasn't a bad cook, but she's cooked simply

600
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,760
Speaker 2: for four kids, very quickly. Whatever she had, so Hamburger

601
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 2: Helper was always on the menu, Sloppy Joe's were on

602
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 2: the menu, you know, stuff like that. I had a

603
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:23,359
Speaker 2: weird relationship with that. I had to back and forth

604
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 2: with that, but it was something about that the kitchen

605
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 2: is like the heart of our home, and that's that

606
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,800
Speaker 2: familiarity of my mother, Like, no, I didn't want anyone

607
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 2: to ever touch me when I was sick except for

608
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 2: my mom. I needed her to give me a hug.

609
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 2: And that's that feel in that kitchen. Why do you

610
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,399
Speaker 2: think that it does belong to women like that? Why

611
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 2: does it belong to the matriarch?

612
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:55,840
Speaker 3: Well, you know, going back over centuries, this is the

613
00:34:55,880 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 3: division of labor, you know, And gendered roles have been

614
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 3: prescribed going back over centuries, you know, And there are

615
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 3: aberrations to that. There are places where women do the

616
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 3: hunting and gathering, but those are few and far between.

617
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 3: So I think that it's something that is, you know,

618
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 3: and I'm not sure that it's nature. I think that

619
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 3: it's sort of decisions that were made about who was

620
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 3: who was going to be viewed as strong and going

621
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 3: to go out and fight wars and and hunt and gather,

622
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 3: and who is going to like do the child rearing. Now,

623
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,280
Speaker 3: the child rearing is part of that, because women produce

624
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 3: children and there's a certain point where they do have

625
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,280
Speaker 3: to quite literally feed a new human being with their bodies,

626
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 3: and an out of that may have grown the expectation

627
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 3: that they would that they would just be you know,

628
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 3: the person that would handle the kitchen handle the and

629
00:35:57,719 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 3: and you know, if you understand what life was like

630
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 3: before there were stoves and refrigerators, you know, the idea

631
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 3: that women were doing this because they were the weaker sex. Well,

632
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 3: I invite you to go out and gather water and

633
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:12,800
Speaker 3: carry you know, two buckets of water across broom handle

634
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 3: on your shoulder. That's the equivalent of like deadlifting. You know,

635
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 3: I invite you to go out and use an axe

636
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 3: to split wood and then carry all that wood into

637
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 3: a cook stove and keep things going. I invite you

638
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 3: to spend time with livestock, and so it's it's not

639
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,839
Speaker 3: necessarily that they were the weaker sex. There was an

640
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 3: argument over time that women have been weaker of mind

641
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 3: and you know, and then maybe that was an effort

642
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 3: to keep them out of they didn't call it the

643
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:47,439
Speaker 3: workforce at that time, but to keep them away from

644
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 3: life and letters. But this, this continued, and then there's

645
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 3: a certain degree of social engineering that uh, you know,

646
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:59,399
Speaker 3: has happened over time and in capitalism. You know, there's

647
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:01,319
Speaker 3: a there's a book by Juju the Shapiro. I can't

648
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 3: remember the name of it, but she writes about the

649
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 3: evolution of the kitchen and and how that was you know,

650
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 3: aimed at women and the lives that they led. And

651
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 3: then there's cultural forces. So I can remember my own kitchen,

652
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 3: but I could describe to you the Breedy Bunch kitchen.

653
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 3: I remember where the oven was. I remember, you know,

654
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 3: the color scheme. It looked like inside of a burger

655
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 3: king kind of orange and brown. I remember Laura Petree's kitchen,

656
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,879
Speaker 3: you know, in the Dick Van Dyke Show. So there

657
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 3: were all kinds of cultural clues. I can describe with

658
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 3: great detail that fabulous kitchens that the Cospy's had, you know,

659
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:45,720
Speaker 3: with the big table in the center of the kitchen.

660
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 3: I don't know if anybody in New York City has

661
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 3: a kitchen that that's lot, that is that large, But

662
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 3: they managed to create a massive farm house style kitchen

663
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 3: in a brownstone in New York City that you know

664
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 3: that we all want. Yeah, so there's there's no you know,

665
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 3: easy answer to that, but there are a lot of

666
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 3: ingredients that went into that stew. I'm kind of curious

667
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 3: about life now because cooking, and I'd love to hear

668
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 3: more from you because I'm older than both of you,

669
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 3: cooking has become it's something that we have to do

670
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 3: to feed ourselves, but it's it's an obsession with I

671
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 3: think millennials, and in a different kind of way, you know,

672
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:32,280
Speaker 3: Instagram shows us that there's a kind of afformative aspect

673
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 3: of cooking. There's a kind of communal dinners, there's there's

674
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 3: there is a greater interest in this, and I'm wondering

675
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 3: if there's more gender parity because of that.

676
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 1: That's I mean, again, Michelle, I wish we could just

677
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:50,320
Speaker 1: there's so many things we could talk about with this,

678
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 1: because I think I was thinking about We've done episodes

679
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 1: on like Betty Crocker and women kind of being alone

680
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 1: in the kitchen and having this person that wasn't real

681
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 1: but they really connected to because they felt so isolated,

682
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: and then that moved into like food shows, and then

683
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 1: that moved into Instagram and social media and from there,

684
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:18,720
Speaker 1: it just there are so many issues to unpack because

685
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 1: I do think it has become at least in my

686
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:27,879
Speaker 1: friend group, I feel a lot of times it is

687
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 1: more equitable with the cooking. There's still sort of lanes

688
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 1: people seem to stay in, but there's also kind of

689
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 1: there's the whole trad wife thing, which we've talked about before.

690
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 1: And there's this food prep thing that I feel I

691
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,239
Speaker 1: don't think it's as prevalent now, but it got really

692
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 1: out of hand for a while where it.

693
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 2: Was still happening. It still happened, like preparing your meals

694
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 2: for the week and in that little tiny container.

695
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 1: Oh, I'm a I'm a fan of Sunday for the

696
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 1: whole I prepped for Sunday for the whole week.

697
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:10,240
Speaker 2: It got out of hand though, like people all excel

698
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 2: based on that, like let me help you with the

699
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 2: specific type of continent, like the capitalism that came from

700
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 2: the capitalism that came from that. It became such a

701
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 2: thing and it had to be manly and or if

702
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,320
Speaker 2: you're not eating all proteins and you're not doing.

703
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 3: Oh, it's like yeah, I mean, I'm a big fan

704
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 3: of the prepping. I did that for years when I

705
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,359
Speaker 3: and I was working, I would prep for the week

706
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,240
Speaker 3: and it would just I could cook so much faster.

707
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,360
Speaker 3: I would just spend Sunday watch something on you know,

708
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 3: watch a great movie, listen to something and just prep

709
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:43,720
Speaker 3: for the week. But I understand what you're saying that Instagram.

710
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 3: I mean, it's like the butter board. Remember for a

711
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 3: while everyone was doing those butterboards.

712
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 4: Like nobody wants to spread butter on a wooden board

713
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 4: and then like like dip stuff into butter.

714
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 3: I mean, that's so things take off. But one of

715
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 3: the reasons I asked the gender question because you know,

716
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 3: even though the world of the kitchen has been gendered

717
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 3: toward women, if you look at celebrity chef culture, right,

718
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 3: it's still so male. Yes, And I'm noticing if you're

719
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 3: on Instagram, a lot of the most popular people on

720
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 3: Instagram are who are cooking and doing that kind of

721
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,280
Speaker 3: performa of cooking are also men. So but I wonder

722
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 3: if that translates into people picking up the kind of

723
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 3: the responsibility of cooking at home. It's different to cook

724
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 3: on Instagram with the right lighting and you know, the

725
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 3: right angles and everything else. Something that can feel like drudgery,

726
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 3: you know, because people you got to eat, so someone's

727
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:48,279
Speaker 3: got to cook. And when that happens. Is there still

728
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 3: the sort of what's for dinner culture as opposed to

729
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 3: you know, what can we cook for dinner? The what's

730
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 3: for dinner? What's for dinner is such a loaded question

731
00:41:56,239 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 3: because it's the expectation that you were going to you're

732
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 3: going to perhaps something to the dinner, as opposed to

733
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:06,839
Speaker 3: let's talk about what we should have for dinner, right,

734
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:11,440
Speaker 3: because what's for dinner means it kind of means what

735
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 3: are you serving me for dinner?

736
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 2: Exactly. I think we did talk about this in the

737
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 2: line of that, Yes, chefs is more dominated as a

738
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 2: profession by men, but even still today women are more

739
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 2: likely to be the home cooks. And you can even

740
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 2: tell almost in the type of food being served that

741
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 2: women are more likely going to have a little homage

742
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 2: to the old style or their family style versus like

743
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:40,400
Speaker 2: being the professional French cuisine like you see that line up.

744
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 2: Still even though, because just like in everything we talked

745
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 2: about with brewing beer, it was that same mentality. You

746
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 2: used to be women who did that. Then it became profitable,

747
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 2: so men started taking it.

748
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:53,359
Speaker 3: I didn't know that that women used to they were

749
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 3: the home brewers.

750
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 2: They were called witches.

751
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 3: Sometimes, Okay, learn something new.

752
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 2: You're interviewing us. This is not going.

753
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 3: I can't help it.

754
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 2: This is not the way they're supposed to go. One

755
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 2: of the things that I love about food in general.

756
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 2: And again you spoke to me with your books as

757
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 2: well as your questions and everything, because you did hit

758
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 2: into like race identity in your book book you released

759
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 2: uh last year and it's still going strong, and I

760
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 2: was able to do it on audible, not a sponsor

761
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 2: a y'all, but that uh, it does so well you

762
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 2: bring in people. I almost it's almost like a podcast.

763
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 2: I was like, WHOA, what's happening here? And then with

764
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:53,320
Speaker 2: the jazz transitions, I was like, yes, I I wanted

765
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 2: to ask you about this.

766
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 3: The first music that came back with it, I was like.

767
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 2: The jazz transitions, like, I see what she's doing. She's

768
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 2: trying to listen to being comfortable before we get like

769
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:06,799
Speaker 2: our hearts smashed. I'm fine. But the one of the

770
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 2: things that that connection for me in finding my identity

771
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 2: is not necessarily just cultural, but it's food. It's food based.

772
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 2: I really have been triggered by food memories, like to

773
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 2: the point that I would have like panic attacks. I'm like,

774
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 2: oh no, this is too real to my pre adoption era,

775
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 2: but really like taking it on and honing and all

776
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:29,360
Speaker 2: and realizing, no, these are things that I know. The

777
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 2: memories that I have of my biological grandmother was that

778
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 2: she owned the snack bar or a restaurant, and I

779
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 2: remember distinctly smells from that, foods that I ate from that,

780
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 2: and I can't like, I have discovered it as an

781
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 2: adult and it has brought me into such a place

782
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 2: that I'm like, where am I? Like? I feel like

783
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 2: there are memories in the back of my head that

784
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:54,719
Speaker 2: I can't quite grasp onto, but I feel it. And

785
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 2: this is this level of knowing that this is about

786
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 2: part of my identity and it's because of food. And

787
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 2: obviously that connection is so deep. You were talking to

788
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:05,360
Speaker 2: Eric Knam about this and his culture and trying to

789
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 2: get that southern which, oh love, that was like from Atlanta. Yeah,

790
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 2: where's he at?

791
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 3: You should find him? Yeah, you do, you need to

792
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 3: be friends.

793
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 2: But like the fact that he does have this connection

794
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:23,959
Speaker 2: of like being you know, first generation with his mother

795
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 2: who still has very very like dominance in the kitchen,

796
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:29,880
Speaker 2: but teaching that to him and learning that culture and

797
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 2: learning his identity of being both about being from the

798
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:36,799
Speaker 2: US and then also being from current culture. It just

799
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 2: spoke so much. Why do you think these types of

800
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:43,399
Speaker 2: conversations are so important to be had, especially when it comes.

801
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 3: To identity because they help us understand ourselves and each

802
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:54,799
Speaker 3: other and our complex world. I you know, people say, oh,

803
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 3: we've got to have a conversation about race, or we

804
00:45:57,200 --> 00:45:59,359
Speaker 3: have to have a conversation about identity. I'd like us

805
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:00,840
Speaker 3: to get to a point where we can say, we

806
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 3: get to have a conversation because you know, I just

807
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 3: learned eighty five things about you and in that short exchange,

808
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 3: you know, and if we kept going, because you know,

809
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 3: I want to ask you, like when you discovered that

810
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:21,839
Speaker 3: you remembered I can't help myself, but you know when

811
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 3: you realize, oh I have that food memory. Were you

812
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 3: in a market, you know, were you out in the

813
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 3: world someplace? I mean our food memories the kitchen. I

814
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 3: think the other reason that I think it's important for

815
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:39,439
Speaker 3: us to have these conversations because it's how we find

816
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 3: each other. It's it's how we educate ourselves about each other.

817
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:46,719
Speaker 3: It's how we do self exploration. And it's because it's

818
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 3: interesting because people are very interesting and the kitchen is

819
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:55,480
Speaker 3: such a interesting space to do that. Also, because the

820
00:46:55,600 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 3: kitchen animates every single one of your senses. It's it's

821
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,240
Speaker 3: you know, it's all there. And so those early kitchen

822
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 3: memories are are not just about food. They're not just

823
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:12,240
Speaker 3: about nutrition, They're about emotion. Food is linked to emotion,

824
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:16,319
Speaker 3: the emotion of the event, the emotion behind who gave

825
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 3: that to you, the emotion attached to where you were

826
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:23,919
Speaker 3: at in your life, the emotion around a memory that

827
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 3: you've you just haven't had enough time to go back

828
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 3: and explore. And so that's why it's a it's a

829
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 3: you know, if we said, tell me about your your

830
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 3: mama's dining room, a lot of stuff happens in the

831
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 3: dining room, it would be a very different conversation than

832
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:43,320
Speaker 3: tell me about what happens in your kitchen.

833
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:45,759
Speaker 1: True.

834
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:48,839
Speaker 3: And I am sitting on my hands right now because

835
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 3: I do want to ask you, like, what are you

836
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:53,279
Speaker 3: going to do to go back and and excavate and

837
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 3: cultivate those memories? And did your parents ever try to

838
00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 3: help you explore your culture through food? You know?

839
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:00,880
Speaker 2: I want to hold on that so that you have

840
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 2: to come back. I'm gonna make it come back. I'm

841
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 2: gonna make you get interested. This is this is me

842
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:09,880
Speaker 2: you know of you?

843
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:20,319
Speaker 1: Oh wow, I love that well. I also got I

844
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 1: had the honor to talk to you on the other

845
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:26,800
Speaker 1: podcast I do Saver, which is about food. And one

846
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:30,719
Speaker 1: thing that we were talking about over there is that

847
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:36,560
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people make the mistake of

848
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 1: divorcing food in the kitchen from everything that it that

849
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 1: like history and identity and gender dynamics and all of

850
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 1: that stuff. What do you think, through your work and

851
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:55,399
Speaker 1: through doing this show, how do you think we can

852
00:48:55,520 --> 00:49:00,160
Speaker 1: see all of that through those conversations and how is

853
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 1: it shape as and to who we are when we

854
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:04,239
Speaker 1: become adults.

855
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 3: Well, I hope that when people hear these episodes that

856
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 3: they wonder about their own lives. And we now are

857
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:14,160
Speaker 3: creating a space, and I know that people do because

858
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 3: we've created a space where people can send their own

859
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 3: audiograms or video messages to YMK at higher Own Productions

860
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:26,439
Speaker 3: dot com, and you know, we listen to them tell

861
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 3: their own stories. And so I hope that it's much

862
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:32,879
Speaker 3: like the book. Also that if you read the book

863
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 3: or listen to the book, if you listen to the

864
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 3: podcast or eventually watch it, because we're going to be

865
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 3: doing video episodes, also now that you will have a

866
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 3: greater curiosity about your own space, that you might pick

867
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 3: up your phone and call your cousin do you remember

868
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 3: you know this, or you might if you're lucky enough

869
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 3: to still have living parents, that you might want to

870
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:54,240
Speaker 3: talk to them, that you might sort of explore. Okay,

871
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:56,840
Speaker 3: is this why I keep a can of bacon grease

872
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 3: next to because my mom did? Or do? I never ever, ever, ever,

873
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:07,400
Speaker 3: ever want to do this because I don't want to

874
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 3: do what my mom did. I don't want to actually

875
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:15,279
Speaker 3: follow that path. So I hope it leads to to exploration,

876
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:19,520
Speaker 3: you know, perhaps more listening of course, and more reading

877
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:23,799
Speaker 3: of you know, deeper exploration of the projects, but also

878
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:26,879
Speaker 3: a little bit of self self exploration. I think that's

879
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:31,399
Speaker 3: that is the highest compliment I get when people say,

880
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:33,360
Speaker 3: you know, it made me really think about my own space,

881
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:35,839
Speaker 3: and you know, now I want to go back and

882
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 3: explore my own kitchen. And one of the things that

883
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:41,799
Speaker 3: we hear over and over again on the show is

884
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:45,400
Speaker 3: I've never said this before. I've never told anyone this before.

885
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:51,880
Speaker 3: We learn about things that people haven't talked about before.

886
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 3: Conan O'Brien tell us this great story. It's one of

887
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:58,400
Speaker 3: the stories that really sticks with me. His mother. Conan O'Brien,

888
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 3: the comedian, late night host now head of Team cocoa

889
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 3: his podcast Empire and really is an Empire.

890
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 4: Grew up in.

891
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 3: Brookline, Massachusetts, and his mother. They have working classroots, and

892
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 3: his mother did well in school and went off to

893
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:17,759
Speaker 3: fancy university and became one of the first women at

894
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:22,480
Speaker 3: a white shoe law firm in Boston, Massachusetts, and excelled

895
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 3: there and did really well, and while at the same

896
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:28,279
Speaker 3: time raising like a passel of kids back home, you know,

897
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:32,160
Speaker 3: Irish Catholic family, and I imagine, I'm you know, the

898
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:36,720
Speaker 3: juggle for her must have been incredible, right, because the expectations,

899
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 3: you know, for her to you know, maybe I don't

900
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:43,719
Speaker 3: know if she felt the expectation to be perfect, but

901
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 3: there's a lot of moths that had to be fed,

902
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:47,520
Speaker 3: while you also definitely had the expectation to be perfect

903
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:48,719
Speaker 3: on a law firm where there weren't a lot of

904
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:52,839
Speaker 3: other women. And he tells this great story about how

905
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 3: she brought the kids to work and they got to

906
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:57,839
Speaker 3: see her office and how proud she was for them

907
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 3: to see that. But he also remember this story about

908
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 3: how she was and he just recently lost both of

909
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:08,400
Speaker 3: his parents, and so it really means a lot to

910
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 3: me that he shared the story with us that she

911
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:18,040
Speaker 3: was not allowed to be in the boardroom when they

912
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 3: had meetings lunch meetings with big clients, but she was

913
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:29,680
Speaker 3: so respected that they needed her close by, so she

914
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:36,239
Speaker 3: would eat at a card table outside the boardroom. And

915
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 3: Conan is telling the story, and it's kind of funny.

916
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 3: He's talking about, well, they're you know, lawsuit. I mean

917
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 3: that would in today's environment, you probably couldn't do that.

918
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 3: But he mentioned something that I've always thought of is

919
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:49,799
Speaker 3: that he said there were few people, few lawyers had

920
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:52,759
Speaker 3: such respect for her. I think her name was Ruth,

921
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:56,400
Speaker 3: that they would no, I'm good, I'm going to go

922
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:59,360
Speaker 3: and eat with her outside, and if you need me,

923
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 3: I'll be outside with her. And I love that he

924
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 3: shared that story. I love that she shared it with

925
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:09,000
Speaker 3: him because she wanted him to know that the hill

926
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:11,600
Speaker 3: was pretty steep for her. And I think that she

927
00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 3: was conveying to him at least the message I took

928
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 3: from it, and I shared the story with my own

929
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 3: kids who are adults. I said, be the person who

930
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:21,520
Speaker 3: gets up and goes and has has lunch with her,

931
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:25,439
Speaker 3: you know, because that's the real power. And the people

932
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 3: who were in the room excluding her, they think they

933
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 3: have the power. The real power is to change the

934
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:32,839
Speaker 3: dynamic and be the person who gets up and says,

935
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:34,440
Speaker 3: you know, I'm good. I'm going to go out lunch

936
00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:36,799
Speaker 3: with her if she's smart enough to be outside the room,

937
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 3: because we need her. She's the one who deserves to

938
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 3: be in my she deserves my company, I deserve and

939
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:45,000
Speaker 3: I'm honored to be with her. You know, that's not

940
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:47,239
Speaker 3: I don't. I don't think Conan sharing that story in

941
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 3: Late Night, you know. And and so I'm glad that

942
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:55,320
Speaker 3: we have an opportunity to mine those kinds of stories

943
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 3: so that we understand a little bit about this person

944
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:01,480
Speaker 3: who makes us laugh, but also that we just are

945
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:07,359
Speaker 3: able to send those really little intimate moments out into

946
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 3: the world to better understand our culture. I mean, right now,

947
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:15,719
Speaker 3: we do this with primarily people who have a certain

948
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 3: amount of acclaim or their marquee figures. But that's why

949
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 3: I wanted to open up the inbox, because I much

950
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:23,360
Speaker 3: like I do with the Race Car Project and I

951
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:24,920
Speaker 3: did in the book Our Hidden Conversations, I want to

952
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:27,400
Speaker 3: hear from all kinds of people. I know someone, for instance,

953
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:29,840
Speaker 3: his mom had a kitchen and it was a stop

954
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:33,200
Speaker 3: in the green book, you know, the Green Book that

955
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:36,120
Speaker 3: people used when they traveled in the South as people

956
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:39,360
Speaker 3: of color and they couldn't go and she had stop

957
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:42,120
Speaker 3: in the Green Book on Memphis. I would love you know,

958
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:44,479
Speaker 3: I'm trying to get him to record his story because

959
00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:46,840
Speaker 3: I mean imagine, and he would help her peel potatoes

960
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:51,120
Speaker 3: and he would chop up stuff with her. And a

961
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:53,520
Speaker 3: lot of famous people went through Memphis and they couldn't

962
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 3: go to restaurants or hotels, and so they'd wind up

963
00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:58,480
Speaker 3: eating in her kitchen. And I think things like that

964
00:54:58,480 --> 00:54:59,880
Speaker 3: probably happened all over the place.

965
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:04,920
Speaker 2: Well this because this Yeah, so I'm gonna have to

966
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:08,399
Speaker 2: tap in before you leave us, because you are a

967
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:11,879
Speaker 2: masterclass in interviewing and story collecting, which is why I

968
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:15,560
Speaker 2: love that title, because being on a podcast, you know,

969
00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 2: and doing this interviewing is a skill. It is a

970
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 2: talent that is difficult to do sometimes, especially when trying

971
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:26,640
Speaker 2: to get that personal story, that depth that you want

972
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 2: to see this person. So can you advise us, oh

973
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:34,439
Speaker 2: master of interviewing this story collecting, on how to do

974
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 2: a good interview?

975
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:39,799
Speaker 3: Well, I think curiosity is a superpower. Yeah, so you

976
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 3: have to be curious. It helps to be informed. It

977
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:48,480
Speaker 3: helps to have an idea of an arc of the conversation,

978
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:50,840
Speaker 3: but to then have a complete willingness to throw that

979
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 3: out the window. So you go where the story takes you.

980
00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:58,120
Speaker 3: But I think a big part of it. And I'm

981
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:00,280
Speaker 3: going to be careful about how I say this because

982
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:03,799
Speaker 3: I don't want to impune anybody. But you know, we

983
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:05,520
Speaker 3: all listen to a lot of podcasts, we all watch

984
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:08,719
Speaker 3: a lot of interviews. I think one of the things

985
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 3: that people sometimes lose truck of is a good interviewer

986
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:17,759
Speaker 3: gets out of the way. You know, you're I'm there

987
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:21,560
Speaker 3: to make room for someone else to tell their story,

988
00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:24,799
Speaker 3: and so I keep the balloon up in the air,

989
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:28,520
Speaker 3: but I try to recede. I try to pull back

990
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:38,240
Speaker 3: so they fill in the spaces. And and to think about,

991
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:40,680
Speaker 3: you know, some of the best answers come from the

992
00:56:40,719 --> 00:56:43,000
Speaker 3: oddest questions. I just I don't know why this came

993
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:46,319
Speaker 3: into my head, but I was interviewing Dave Brubek, the

994
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:50,960
Speaker 3: jazz musician, and I was able to do it in person.

995
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:52,520
Speaker 3: And as I was talking to them, and I realized,

996
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:54,359
Speaker 3: you know, as you get older, your hands tighten up,

997
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 3: you know, And I said, tell me about your hands.

998
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:02,439
Speaker 3: He said, no one has ever asked me that he's

999
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:05,080
Speaker 3: a pianist. You know, no one has ever, So you know,

1000
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:08,879
Speaker 3: to think about that sort of simple thing and sometimes

1001
00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:14,319
Speaker 3: those yield the best, the best answers, I mean, the

1002
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:20,160
Speaker 3: crazy idea, tell me about your mom's kitchen, to go

1003
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:21,880
Speaker 3: go where it sounds like star trek, to go where

1004
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:22,720
Speaker 3: no man has gone.

1005
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 2: But but you.

1006
00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:26,680
Speaker 3: Know, think of the questions that no one is asking.

1007
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:31,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, thank you so much for submit. I feel

1008
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:33,680
Speaker 1: like you're to like work advice.

1009
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:36,880
Speaker 2: Sorry I had to get them while she was here. Yeah,

1010
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 2: this is invaluable.

1011
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:42,400
Speaker 4: Well, there's one other thing I would say is stop

1012
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:46,080
Speaker 4: talking sometimes, you know, especially in a difficult moment, because

1013
00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:52,000
Speaker 4: if it's difficult, your instinct is to fill void m

1014
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:55,400
Speaker 4: with your voice, and sometimes it's hard to do.

1015
00:57:55,560 --> 00:58:00,640
Speaker 3: But let's be the one that was it's like a

1016
00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:01,440
Speaker 3: game of chickens.

1017
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:18,120
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for being here. It's amazing.

1018
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:22,480
Speaker 1: When you were talking about you know, quote unquote simple

1019
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:25,360
Speaker 1: question that has so much to it, I've like honestly

1020
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:29,800
Speaker 1: fighting back tears that Conan O'Brien story, because you can

1021
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:31,480
Speaker 1: relate so much to it and you can connect so

1022
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:36,480
Speaker 1: much to it. Through these stories, and we got a

1023
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:40,480
Speaker 1: little bit of a teaser for your next season of

1024
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:44,200
Speaker 1: Your Mama's Kitchen, and I'm very, very excited. But is

1025
00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:48,120
Speaker 1: there anything that you want to to tease or that

1026
00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:49,920
Speaker 1: you're excited about that's coming up?

1027
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 3: Oh with the first three episodes are just gold. It's

1028
00:58:55,000 --> 00:59:00,000
Speaker 3: Stephen and Ebbie Colbert and you know, in their partnership

1029
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:03,560
Speaker 3: and they just love food and they're so funny and

1030
00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:08,800
Speaker 3: they're so funny together. Ina Garten. Have you read her book?

1031
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:15,480
Speaker 3: I highly recommend it's Be Ready When the Luck Happens.

1032
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:18,240
Speaker 3: She had a very I mean, for someone who brings

1033
00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 3: so much joy to people, she had a very unhappy

1034
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:26,240
Speaker 3: childhood and emotionally violent and sometimes physically violent. And she

1035
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:30,920
Speaker 3: overcame that and she found someone who understood her. And

1036
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:35,560
Speaker 3: she writes with clarity and honesty and it's a great

1037
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:40,360
Speaker 3: book and it's a great conversation. And she is someone

1038
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:46,680
Speaker 3: who just broke molds and created new paths and I

1039
00:59:47,080 --> 00:59:49,200
Speaker 3: think people will really dig that. And we sat down

1040
00:59:49,240 --> 00:59:53,360
Speaker 3: with John Legend in his creation house, like Goals, he

1041
00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:55,720
Speaker 3: has a house that he and Chrissy don't live in,

1042
00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:59,640
Speaker 3: but it's where they create. She creates recipes, he creates music,

1043
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:04,160
Speaker 3: and he too had a very difficult childhood that he's

1044
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:07,760
Speaker 3: only now just starting to open up about. And so

1045
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:12,720
Speaker 3: you understand not just John Legend as an artist. He

1046
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:15,080
Speaker 3: is a beautiful man inside and out. I've got to

1047
01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:17,760
Speaker 3: know him over many years. But you understand that great,

1048
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:21,000
Speaker 3: big heart of his, you know, because you realize that

1049
01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:22,840
Speaker 3: it was broken pretty early and he had to figure

1050
01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:27,440
Speaker 3: out how to put it back together. And it's almost like,

1051
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:28,840
Speaker 3: I can't remember the name of the art, but the

1052
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:30,880
Speaker 3: Chinese principle they break a piece of art and then

1053
01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:32,600
Speaker 3: you put it back together, using gold to put the

1054
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:35,840
Speaker 3: pieces back together. It's almost like that represents what happened

1055
01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:39,800
Speaker 3: to him, that his heart is stronger, his soul is richer,

1056
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:43,040
Speaker 3: his life is stronger because of the brokenness. It's there's

1057
01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:47,360
Speaker 3: strength in that brokenness. And all this talked about, you know,

1058
01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:49,760
Speaker 3: through the prism of the Kitchen, and in every episode,

1059
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:52,320
Speaker 3: I guess I should remind people that everyone we talk

1060
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:58,640
Speaker 3: to gives us a delicious recipe. Yes, so it's going

1061
01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:00,240
Speaker 3: to be a great season. We also talked to Big

1062
01:01:00,280 --> 01:01:06,600
Speaker 3: Freda and Wendell Pierce and Susan Orlean and Leshana Lynch

1063
01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:10,560
Speaker 3: who is in Jamaican and lives in Britain, and she,

1064
01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:13,360
Speaker 3: you know, talked about life growing up there. It's it's

1065
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:15,920
Speaker 3: good stuff. We serve up some delicious every week starting

1066
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:19,400
Speaker 3: January twenty eighth, So pull up the seat and join

1067
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:20,120
Speaker 3: us every week.

1068
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:23,400
Speaker 1: Yes, I heard there's mac and cheese involved, and I'm

1069
01:01:23,400 --> 01:01:24,600
Speaker 1: incredibly excited.

1070
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:27,640
Speaker 3: Yes, and he claims it's the best mac and cheese

1071
01:01:27,640 --> 01:01:28,200
Speaker 3: on the planet.

1072
01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:33,800
Speaker 1: So oh, I will be very happy to test that theory.

1073
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:36,320
Speaker 3: Maybe we should have a mac and cheese Sunday where we, like,

1074
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:39,680
Speaker 3: everybody like we can could we recruit you to do that.

1075
01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:43,560
Speaker 3: It's like in early February, everybody everybody makes John Legends

1076
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 3: mac and cheese on an appointed Sunday, and then we

1077
01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:47,800
Speaker 3: all should we do that?

1078
01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:51,920
Speaker 2: Have you done all these recipes or or have you

1079
01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:53,920
Speaker 2: had favorites and any of these recipes?

1080
01:01:54,280 --> 01:01:56,840
Speaker 3: I wrote test the recipes, and I do have a

1081
01:01:56,880 --> 01:02:01,880
Speaker 3: few favorites. Michelle Obana's red rice is a banger. Okay,

1082
01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:05,560
Speaker 3: is a banger. It is really good hot or cold

1083
01:02:06,280 --> 01:02:10,600
Speaker 3: that's worked its way into the rotation. Andy Garcia's Pooficacy

1084
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:18,440
Speaker 3: took a lot of time. I mean it was a

1085
01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:25,280
Speaker 3: labor intensive labor of love. But the results were crazy good.

1086
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:27,160
Speaker 3: I mean, my family is like, and then you put

1087
01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:28,040
Speaker 3: raisins in there?

1088
01:02:28,640 --> 01:02:30,280
Speaker 1: Wait what what?

1089
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:31,200
Speaker 2: Wait what?

1090
01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:33,360
Speaker 3: Yeah? But you put the raisins in and they stay

1091
01:02:33,440 --> 01:02:37,120
Speaker 3: and they they sop up all the like the wine

1092
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:40,040
Speaker 3: and the marinade and everything else, and they become these

1093
01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:45,000
Speaker 3: little flavor bombs. They reconstitute and turn into almost like grapes,

1094
01:02:46,360 --> 01:02:48,680
Speaker 3: and so they you know, they're dried up. I mean

1095
01:02:48,680 --> 01:02:51,080
Speaker 3: that's what they are, dried grapes, right, and they turned

1096
01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:53,120
Speaker 3: back into grapes, but the filling is got out of

1097
01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:56,520
Speaker 3: the marinade and so when you bite them, this little

1098
01:02:56,560 --> 01:03:01,080
Speaker 3: explosion of deliciousness. So that that was a real winner.

1099
01:03:03,920 --> 01:03:07,840
Speaker 3: Abby Wombo's mom makes this pasta dish, which my family

1100
01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:14,720
Speaker 3: really loves. There were the snow cookies that Nicole avant

1101
01:03:15,080 --> 01:03:17,840
Speaker 3: Or that her mother makes were a big hit for

1102
01:03:17,960 --> 01:03:21,120
Speaker 3: the holidays. So yeah, the food has been the food

1103
01:03:21,160 --> 01:03:25,160
Speaker 3: has been spot on. For the mac and cheese, my

1104
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:27,200
Speaker 3: son now makes the mac and cheese. In our family,

1105
01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:30,160
Speaker 3: all my kids cook and he has taken over the

1106
01:03:30,200 --> 01:03:32,480
Speaker 3: mac and cheese. So he's actually going to make the

1107
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:36,280
Speaker 3: John Legend mac and cheese coming up. And I actually

1108
01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:38,760
Speaker 3: liked the idea, though, I think I'm gonna we may

1109
01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:41,040
Speaker 3: need to run with that, is to like everyone do,

1110
01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:45,440
Speaker 3: because remember Samin Nosrat did the big lasagna where everyone

1111
01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:48,680
Speaker 3: made her lasagna during COVID at the same time, and

1112
01:03:48,720 --> 01:03:51,400
Speaker 3: that's the first time I made lasagnah is when I

1113
01:03:51,400 --> 01:03:54,920
Speaker 3: did that. And so her chicken soup also, she did

1114
01:03:54,960 --> 01:03:58,680
Speaker 3: a Persian chicken soup that was super lemony, like so

1115
01:03:58,800 --> 01:04:03,160
Speaker 3: much that your cheeks kind of yeah, and she then

1116
01:04:03,240 --> 01:04:05,960
Speaker 3: layered it with a little bit of ghee mm hmm.

1117
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:09,680
Speaker 3: And it's it's you know, it's winter in much of

1118
01:04:09,680 --> 01:04:11,880
Speaker 3: the country right now, and that's a that's a really

1119
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:14,040
Speaker 3: good one for this time of the year.

1120
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:16,120
Speaker 2: I'm getting very hungry.

1121
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:21,960
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, one of the risk of the job of

1122
01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:23,240
Speaker 1: food journalists.

1123
01:04:23,480 --> 01:04:26,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, well.

1124
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:29,240
Speaker 1: I am so down for mac and cheese.

1125
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:32,880
Speaker 3: Okay, I'll let you know. We'll pick a Sunday, maybe

1126
01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:36,320
Speaker 3: like Super Bowl Sunday or right before Super Bowl. But yeah,

1127
01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:38,760
Speaker 3: we definitely let's do that. And I think John and

1128
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:41,120
Speaker 3: Chrissy would probably we'll recruit them also when.

1129
01:04:41,640 --> 01:04:48,640
Speaker 1: Obviously, yes, we know you're so busy, I have so

1130
01:04:48,760 --> 01:04:49,800
Speaker 1: many other questions.

1131
01:04:50,440 --> 01:04:52,160
Speaker 3: Well, you know, maybe I'll come back one day.

1132
01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:53,720
Speaker 1: Samantha has already laid the track.

1133
01:04:53,960 --> 01:04:56,600
Speaker 2: I'm trying. I'm trying. Look, we have so many things

1134
01:04:56,600 --> 01:04:58,080
Speaker 2: to talk about. I'm just saying.

1135
01:04:57,880 --> 01:05:01,080
Speaker 1: Because I feel like I wanted to talk about price

1136
01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:04,120
Speaker 1: dynamics because a lot of times I think when people

1137
01:05:04,200 --> 01:05:07,240
Speaker 1: talk about their mama's kitchen, there's always like she made

1138
01:05:07,240 --> 01:05:10,360
Speaker 1: this cast role that was just cans and stuff. Yeah,

1139
01:05:10,440 --> 01:05:15,360
Speaker 1: but then there's also the very labor intensive things that

1140
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:20,480
Speaker 1: takes so long. So yes, definitely please come back. Is

1141
01:05:20,520 --> 01:05:24,080
Speaker 1: there any where can the good listeners find you? Is

1142
01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:25,919
Speaker 1: there anything else you want to shout out?

1143
01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:29,400
Speaker 3: Well, you know, they can find us wherever you your mama's kitchen,

1144
01:05:29,600 --> 01:05:32,440
Speaker 3: you can find wherever you listen to podcasts. Our Hidden

1145
01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:37,080
Speaker 3: Conversations is sold in bookstores across America. It's still it's

1146
01:05:37,200 --> 01:05:39,360
Speaker 3: you know, was released a year ago, almost a year

1147
01:05:39,360 --> 01:05:41,720
Speaker 3: ago this week, and people are still finding it and

1148
01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:45,480
Speaker 3: elevating it. I always encourage people to listen as well

1149
01:05:45,520 --> 01:05:47,120
Speaker 3: as read it because you want to see it, because

1150
01:05:47,120 --> 01:05:49,680
Speaker 3: the pictures are beautiful, but the audio, many of the

1151
01:05:49,720 --> 01:05:52,800
Speaker 3: people are telling their own stories. So when Samuel said

1152
01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:55,040
Speaker 3: it felt like a podcast, it was meant to feel

1153
01:05:55,040 --> 01:05:57,000
Speaker 3: like a podcast. I mean, I really wanted to create

1154
01:05:57,760 --> 01:06:00,120
Speaker 3: a real experience. And if you've listened to this, you

1155
01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:01,480
Speaker 3: know I have six words I want to send. You

1156
01:06:01,480 --> 01:06:03,400
Speaker 3: can find us at the Racecard project dot com. You

1157
01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:06,880
Speaker 3: can send us your six words story I am. I

1158
01:06:06,880 --> 01:06:09,440
Speaker 3: write columns for MSNBC, and I show up, you know,

1159
01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:12,880
Speaker 3: occasionally sharing my thoughts on air, so you can find

1160
01:06:12,920 --> 01:06:16,400
Speaker 3: me lots of different ways. I what's the fake back

1161
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:17,760
Speaker 3: to all fields? You know?

1162
01:06:20,120 --> 01:06:22,880
Speaker 1: Yes? Yes, well, thank you, thank you, thank you so

1163
01:06:22,960 --> 01:06:23,760
Speaker 1: much for being here.

1164
01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:25,880
Speaker 3: I have love talking to both of you. Thank you.

1165
01:06:26,040 --> 01:06:26,840
Speaker 3: Hope we do it again.

1166
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:28,840
Speaker 2: Yes, please cheese.

1167
01:06:31,280 --> 01:06:33,000
Speaker 1: And that brings us to the end of our interview

1168
01:06:33,000 --> 01:06:36,920
Speaker 1: with Michelle Norris. It was so delightful, if so lovely.

1169
01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:39,040
Speaker 1: Hopefully we're going to get to do this mac and

1170
01:06:39,120 --> 01:06:41,040
Speaker 1: cheese thing. I am so in.

1171
01:06:42,000 --> 01:06:43,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think I'll be good at it. I

1172
01:06:43,600 --> 01:06:45,280
Speaker 2: might have to put my partner onto it, because he

1173
01:06:45,520 --> 01:06:47,440
Speaker 2: does a really good mac and cheese, except for I

1174
01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:51,720
Speaker 2: can't trust him because he likes to deviate from the

1175
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:54,800
Speaker 2: actual recipe and that drives me crazy. Like it's both

1176
01:06:54,800 --> 01:06:55,520
Speaker 2: good and bad.

1177
01:06:56,280 --> 01:06:58,320
Speaker 1: I think that would be interesting to talk about though,

1178
01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:00,240
Speaker 1: because we kind of touched on that when she was

1179
01:07:00,280 --> 01:07:03,040
Speaker 1: talking about her son making the mac and cheese and

1180
01:07:03,120 --> 01:07:07,880
Speaker 1: like the yeah, the gender equity when it comes to

1181
01:07:08,280 --> 01:07:14,720
Speaker 1: social media and cooking, that would be interesting if you

1182
01:07:14,880 --> 01:07:16,240
Speaker 1: made one and he made one.

1183
01:07:16,600 --> 01:07:20,480
Speaker 2: Mine would stick to the recipe for like absolute I

1184
01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:23,280
Speaker 2: don't like my first time, especially making it something for

1185
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:27,120
Speaker 2: the first time. I follow the recipes strictly, and then

1186
01:07:27,200 --> 01:07:30,080
Speaker 2: after that I'll see what I want to do. But

1187
01:07:30,120 --> 01:07:31,160
Speaker 2: he is all over the.

1188
01:07:31,120 --> 01:07:34,680
Speaker 1: Place, and I am like, what do I have?

1189
01:07:35,560 --> 01:07:38,520
Speaker 2: I mean, and that's talent though I've been talking about that,

1190
01:07:38,640 --> 01:07:40,840
Speaker 2: the talent of being able to create from what you

1191
01:07:40,920 --> 01:07:45,080
Speaker 2: have but actually make like intensive recipes with like oh

1192
01:07:45,160 --> 01:07:47,760
Speaker 2: I have these beans and this kind of protein, I'm

1193
01:07:47,760 --> 01:07:49,680
Speaker 2: gonna do this broth. Then maybe I could add this.

1194
01:07:50,080 --> 01:07:52,080
Speaker 2: That's at bit because I also was thinking about the

1195
01:07:52,080 --> 01:07:54,440
Speaker 2: fact that she had people coming on sharing family recipes.

1196
01:07:54,440 --> 01:07:57,920
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't have everything I have either comes

1197
01:07:57,920 --> 01:08:02,160
Speaker 2: from another recipe or from my mom never teaching me

1198
01:08:02,200 --> 01:08:04,680
Speaker 2: something like even I don't know she could, she doesn't

1199
01:08:04,720 --> 01:08:06,960
Speaker 2: know how to do that. But most of her recipes,

1200
01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:09,480
Speaker 2: as I mentioned, was like an easy to go box

1201
01:08:09,640 --> 01:08:12,680
Speaker 2: dinner or something that's just simple enough. Because she was

1202
01:08:12,680 --> 01:08:15,280
Speaker 2: feeding so many of us, but like, yeah, we don't

1203
01:08:15,320 --> 01:08:16,000
Speaker 2: have that.

1204
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:22,160
Speaker 1: Right And honestly, if we had had more time, I

1205
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:28,519
Speaker 1: would have loved to hear your conversation expand about because

1206
01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:31,600
Speaker 1: she have such an interesting like southern food and career.

1207
01:08:31,560 --> 01:08:34,200
Speaker 2: Right well, like I told you, Like in the interview,

1208
01:08:34,280 --> 01:08:37,479
Speaker 2: we talk about Eric Nahm, who is from He says Atlanta.

1209
01:08:37,520 --> 01:08:39,400
Speaker 2: I have a foot like he says, on the outskirts

1210
01:08:39,400 --> 01:08:43,559
Speaker 2: of Atlanta. But his mom, you know, cooks all Korean cuisine.

1211
01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:46,439
Speaker 2: To the fact that she flies to Korea, gets supplies

1212
01:08:46,479 --> 01:08:50,040
Speaker 2: and comes back Wow. But then he grew up in

1213
01:08:50,080 --> 01:08:53,120
Speaker 2: Atlanta and has his own style. That's both of those things.

1214
01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:55,720
Speaker 2: So I really love bad perspective and I love that

1215
01:08:55,720 --> 01:08:59,720
Speaker 2: that's common enough because we also like Edward Lee. I

1216
01:08:59,760 --> 01:09:05,160
Speaker 2: was talking about the cooking show that's the Korean Cooking

1217
01:09:05,200 --> 01:09:06,800
Speaker 2: Show and he was on there, but he we went

1218
01:09:06,840 --> 01:09:09,920
Speaker 2: to his restaurant and I realized way later who he was.

1219
01:09:09,960 --> 01:09:12,240
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, because I was very critical at first.

1220
01:09:12,240 --> 01:09:14,439
Speaker 2: I was like, who is this dude combining Korean in

1221
01:09:14,479 --> 01:09:17,519
Speaker 2: Southern and DC. Who is this And it turned out

1222
01:09:17,560 --> 01:09:20,320
Speaker 2: to be Edward Lee, who was from Kentucky. I was like, Okay,

1223
01:09:20,439 --> 01:09:23,040
Speaker 2: that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, and I felt

1224
01:09:23,040 --> 01:09:25,040
Speaker 2: a certain way. I was like, who is this Who's

1225
01:09:25,080 --> 01:09:28,480
Speaker 2: representing my life in a restaurant?

1226
01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:33,400
Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing, uh is we talked about it

1227
01:09:33,400 --> 01:09:36,360
Speaker 1: in this episode, but all the histories and identity and

1228
01:09:36,360 --> 01:09:39,720
Speaker 1: all that stuff. But also like I do that too,

1229
01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:43,639
Speaker 1: where I'm like, who who are you making this food?

1230
01:09:43,920 --> 01:09:45,559
Speaker 1: I'm just curious does.

1231
01:09:45,400 --> 01:09:48,160
Speaker 2: It come from your heart? Does it come from money?

1232
01:09:48,520 --> 01:09:50,680
Speaker 2: But yeah, so those are the conversations that Man, I

1233
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:52,680
Speaker 2: think there's so many subjects that we could come on to,

1234
01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:56,479
Speaker 2: and we were all because essentially she's not necessarily like

1235
01:09:56,520 --> 01:09:59,960
Speaker 2: a food journalist like that, she's there for the story

1236
01:10:00,120 --> 01:10:02,680
Speaker 2: that it happens to be about food. Like it's very

1237
01:10:02,680 --> 01:10:05,960
Speaker 2: interesting because I was talking if you get a chance listeners,

1238
01:10:05,960 --> 01:10:08,760
Speaker 2: and I think we probably should do her book as

1239
01:10:08,800 --> 01:10:12,800
Speaker 2: a book. Like I said, it's listening to it. It's

1240
01:10:12,840 --> 01:10:16,599
Speaker 2: a different whole different scenario because she is doing interviews

1241
01:10:16,640 --> 01:10:18,840
Speaker 2: because she didn't want to tell their story for them,

1242
01:10:19,880 --> 01:10:23,000
Speaker 2: and so she had different actors or different people come

1243
01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:26,600
Speaker 2: in and represent their own six words story that interjects

1244
01:10:26,680 --> 01:10:29,240
Speaker 2: and then it's beautiful how she does it with her

1245
01:10:29,280 --> 01:10:32,920
Speaker 2: own research and work behind it. So definitely worth to listen.

1246
01:10:33,000 --> 01:10:36,519
Speaker 2: They do have in the audible or audio version the

1247
01:10:36,600 --> 01:10:39,880
Speaker 2: pictures that come with it, so they're also gorgeous. But

1248
01:10:40,280 --> 01:10:42,080
Speaker 2: I think we're going to have to pick that one

1249
01:10:42,160 --> 01:10:42,840
Speaker 2: up soon.

1250
01:10:43,840 --> 01:10:48,840
Speaker 1: I think. So it's amazing how quickly she and the

1251
01:10:48,840 --> 01:10:52,320
Speaker 1: people she interviews will move you to tears. I did

1252
01:10:52,400 --> 01:10:58,920
Speaker 1: not describe wow, but there are stories we all can

1253
01:10:58,920 --> 01:11:02,519
Speaker 1: connect or really to in some way that I think

1254
01:11:02,520 --> 01:11:09,519
Speaker 1: that's why they're so powerful. I would also say check

1255
01:11:09,520 --> 01:11:13,120
Speaker 1: out if you want to learn more about her history

1256
01:11:13,280 --> 01:11:15,880
Speaker 1: in food journalism or why she was interested in it,

1257
01:11:16,040 --> 01:11:19,720
Speaker 1: check out the episode I did over on Saver with

1258
01:11:19,800 --> 01:11:24,840
Speaker 1: Lauren interviewing Michelle Norris, because it was great. It was

1259
01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:27,920
Speaker 1: a great interview, but also, yeah, she's done all of

1260
01:11:27,920 --> 01:11:31,240
Speaker 1: these things. She's got the second season coming out of

1261
01:11:32,880 --> 01:11:36,360
Speaker 1: Your Mama's Kitchen, and it's really beautiful and it's amazing,

1262
01:11:36,520 --> 01:11:42,000
Speaker 1: So please check it out listeners, and if you would

1263
01:11:42,040 --> 01:11:45,200
Speaker 1: like to contact us, if you have any thoughts about

1264
01:11:45,240 --> 01:11:48,559
Speaker 1: Your Mama's Kitchen, you can contact Michelle. She gave you

1265
01:11:48,680 --> 01:11:52,280
Speaker 1: the information, but you can also contact us if you

1266
01:11:52,320 --> 01:11:57,280
Speaker 1: would like. You can email us at Hello at Stuffmennever

1267
01:11:57,320 --> 01:12:01,680
Speaker 1: Told You dot Com or stuff medium Stuff at iHeartMedia

1268
01:12:01,720 --> 01:12:05,120
Speaker 1: dot com. Both work. You can find us on Blue

1269
01:12:05,160 --> 01:12:09,160
Speaker 1: Sky at mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok

1270
01:12:09,479 --> 01:12:12,000
Speaker 1: at Stuff When ever told you. We're also on YouTube.

1271
01:12:12,040 --> 01:12:13,720
Speaker 1: We have a tea public store, and we have a

1272
01:12:13,760 --> 01:12:16,120
Speaker 1: book you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks

1273
01:12:16,120 --> 01:12:19,320
Speaker 1: as always to our super producer Christina, our executive Bruce

1274
01:12:19,360 --> 01:12:22,240
Speaker 1: and Maya, and our contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks

1275
01:12:22,280 --> 01:12:24,280
Speaker 1: to you for listening Stuff one ever told you to

1276
01:12:24,320 --> 01:12:26,639
Speaker 1: prediction of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio,

1277
01:12:26,680 --> 01:12:28,920
Speaker 1: you can check out your iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

1278
01:12:28,960 --> 01:12:30,400
Speaker 1: where you listen to your favorite show