1
00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:01,920
Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

2
00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:03,720
Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

3
00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:06,760
Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

4
00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:07,840
Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

5
00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:10,039
Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

6
00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:12,400
Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

7
00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:16,079
Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

8
00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:18,480
Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trust Me pod at

9
00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:19,919
Speaker 1: gmail dot com.

10
00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:20,799
Speaker 3: Trust me.

11
00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:23,279
Speaker 4: Trust Me.

12
00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:25,000
Speaker 5: I'm like a swat person.

13
00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:29,200
Speaker 2: I've never lived you. I never do you think that

14
00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:34,960
Speaker 2: one person has all the answers? Don't welcome to trust Me.

15
00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,440
Speaker 2: The podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two

16
00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,760
Speaker 2: missus Peterson's who've actually experienced it. I am Lola Blanc.

17
00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:44,960
Speaker 1: And I'm Megan Elizabeth.

18
00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:47,760
Speaker 2: Today our guest is a guy named Martin who used

19
00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:50,440
Speaker 2: to be a big fan of Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro.

20
00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:52,279
Speaker 2: He's going to talk to us about how when he

21
00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:55,120
Speaker 2: was a teenager, the YouTube algorithm fed him videos that

22
00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:57,640
Speaker 2: made him feel empowered as someone who'd been bullied and

23
00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:00,480
Speaker 2: was looking for an identity, how it impacted his worldview

24
00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,040
Speaker 2: and some of the weirdness that is Jordan Peterson.

25
00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:07,720
Speaker 1: We'll discuss the oversimplified worldview of chaos versus order, why

26
00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:10,399
Speaker 1: he thinks so many young men are drawn to figures

27
00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:13,759
Speaker 1: like this, how debate is not actually an effective way

28
00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:17,960
Speaker 1: of finding truth so much as making someone else look dumb,

29
00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:20,960
Speaker 1: and how working for a public defender and coming face

30
00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:23,560
Speaker 1: to face with inmates who were real people who had

31
00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:25,800
Speaker 1: been suffering, began to change his mind.

32
00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:28,520
Speaker 2: I note one thing we discussed in this interview is

33
00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:31,959
Speaker 2: how the loudest voices get rewarded in the media. Moderate

34
00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:34,840
Speaker 2: voices being disincentivized to be loud online is something we

35
00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,839
Speaker 2: actually discussed last year in an episode with Chris Baale,

36
00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,880
Speaker 2: the director of the Polarization Lab at Duke University. If

37
00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:42,720
Speaker 2: you all want to check that episode out and hear

38
00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:46,880
Speaker 2: more about that before we dive in with Martin Megan,

39
00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:49,200
Speaker 2: what's your cultiest thing? This week?

40
00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:54,120
Speaker 1: I attended my first group therapy for cult survivors born

41
00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:57,440
Speaker 1: and raised in occults and it was wonderful.

42
00:01:57,560 --> 00:01:58,200
Speaker 6: I loved it.

43
00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:02,440
Speaker 1: I felt very and heard and understood in a whole

44
00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:02,840
Speaker 1: new way.

45
00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:05,720
Speaker 2: That's amazing. So was this the one that was recommended

46
00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:07,080
Speaker 2: by our guest?

47
00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:10,880
Speaker 1: It was indeed, and our guest was there, so I

48
00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,880
Speaker 1: got to see our guest slash best friend in person.

49
00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,280
Speaker 6: And yeah, I really enjoyed it.

50
00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,200
Speaker 1: I love group therapy in any setting. It's such a

51
00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:23,880
Speaker 1: weird microcosm of the whole and I could go on

52
00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,399
Speaker 1: about it forever, but it was really enlightening.

53
00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:28,280
Speaker 6: So I can't wait to keep doing it.

54
00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,320
Speaker 2: Were you finding that, you know, there were just themes

55
00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:33,720
Speaker 2: of struggles that people had had that you were really

56
00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:34,480
Speaker 2: connecting to.

57
00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:38,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, we were talking about triggers, and I realized my

58
00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:42,440
Speaker 1: biggest trigger is people's voice. I can't stand when somebody

59
00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:45,480
Speaker 1: has like a fake voice, you.

60
00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:47,840
Speaker 2: Know, like putting on their nice like church voice or.

61
00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:52,760
Speaker 1: Whatever totally, or the yoga voice or the whatever voice. Yes,

62
00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:58,520
Speaker 1: it's like my number one falling down a rabbit hole

63
00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:03,320
Speaker 1: of trigger gateway drug. So I'd never known that before,

64
00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:06,520
Speaker 1: but it was cool to suddenly have that information.

65
00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,280
Speaker 2: That's so interesting. I'm so glad that you went. That's great.

66
00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:10,840
Speaker 2: Thank you.

67
00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:12,920
Speaker 6: It was at nine am. So shocking.

68
00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:14,600
Speaker 2: Wow, unbelievable.

69
00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,160
Speaker 6: I know, what about you? What was the cultiest thing

70
00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:19,240
Speaker 6: happened to you this week?

71
00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:24,000
Speaker 2: Hey, we're twins. So I've been going to actually for

72
00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:25,960
Speaker 2: quite a while now, for a number of months. I've

73
00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:28,919
Speaker 2: probably mentioned it before, but I've been going to group

74
00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:33,040
Speaker 2: therapy for people with OCD. I am right there with you.

75
00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:36,960
Speaker 2: I think it's just like so life affirming to talk

76
00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,400
Speaker 2: to people who have your same fucking weird, obsessive way

77
00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:42,560
Speaker 2: of thinking and like don't judge you for it and

78
00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:46,080
Speaker 2: are supportive about it, and like, I don't know, it

79
00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:48,040
Speaker 2: just make you feel seen and understood, because like therapist,

80
00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:50,720
Speaker 2: it's so great to speak to a therapist, obviously, but

81
00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:53,119
Speaker 2: sometimes you just really need to talk to someone who's like, oh,

82
00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:56,119
Speaker 2: been there, you know, or like, oh, here's what it's

83
00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,280
Speaker 2: like for me, you know, Like it's just like it

84
00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,880
Speaker 2: makes you feel like you're a part of something and

85
00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:05,080
Speaker 2: you're not just like completely alone in this terrible world.

86
00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:07,760
Speaker 2: So anyway, I'm in the cult of MYOCD group.

87
00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,280
Speaker 1: Which ironically goes perfectly with this episode where community is

88
00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:16,000
Speaker 1: kind of the antidote to so much negativity that we

89
00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:17,200
Speaker 1: can find online.

90
00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,360
Speaker 2: It's so true and that's why we join cults.

91
00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:24,599
Speaker 1: Speaking of Twins, let's talk about our showing of the

92
00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:26,960
Speaker 1: movie the Invitation where we're gonna dress like Twins.

93
00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:29,720
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for bringing that up, Megan.

94
00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:30,919
Speaker 6: You're so welcome.

95
00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:33,920
Speaker 2: Twin For people who live in Los Angeles. American Cinema

96
00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:37,599
Speaker 2: Tech is an incredible what do you call them? Even

97
00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:42,279
Speaker 2: a cult? Honestly, I am in the American Cinema Tach culture.

98
00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:44,440
Speaker 2: I am a member. I paid for my membership. I

99
00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,359
Speaker 2: fucking love the movies that they show. They're at the

100
00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:49,760
Speaker 2: Arrow in Santa Monica usually or the lows Feelis three.

101
00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,800
Speaker 2: We are hosting a screening with them, you guys, and

102
00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,840
Speaker 2: it is a horror movie that is related to cults,

103
00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,120
Speaker 2: the Invitation, and it is playing on on August thirtieth

104
00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,280
Speaker 2: at ten pm at the Los Felis three. You can

105
00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,599
Speaker 2: get your tickets at American Cinema Tech with a queu

106
00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:09,200
Speaker 2: eat at the end. That's how you spell that dot com.

107
00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,560
Speaker 2: It's a part of the Friend of the Fest podcast

108
00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:16,200
Speaker 2: festival that they are hosting, where different podcasts host different screenings.

109
00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:18,120
Speaker 2: And we would love it so much if you came

110
00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,679
Speaker 2: to ours. Please make us look cool and like fill

111
00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:22,039
Speaker 2: the theater completely.

112
00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're gonna talk beforehand and hang out after and

113
00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,920
Speaker 1: it's gonna be great. So let's watch the Invitation.

114
00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:31,400
Speaker 2: Why not, Let's do it, and we will be there

115
00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:33,479
Speaker 2: in person talking and so you can come and say

116
00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,599
Speaker 2: hi to us, and that is that is that that?

117
00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:37,360
Speaker 2: These that?

118
00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:41,400
Speaker 6: Shall we talk to Martin?

119
00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,680
Speaker 2: Let's do it also, you guys. I am a director,

120
00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,200
Speaker 2: I am a podcaster, but I'm also a music artist

121
00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:50,000
Speaker 2: for those of you who do not know, and I

122
00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,200
Speaker 2: have a brand new song out. It came out yesterday

123
00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,280
Speaker 2: and it happens to be called That's right Trust Me.

124
00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:57,159
Speaker 2: It's the same name as this podcast, and if you

125
00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:59,279
Speaker 2: listen through the end of the episode, we will play

126
00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:00,799
Speaker 2: it for you. So stay tuned.

127
00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,880
Speaker 1: You hear that sound, it's the sound of a sale

128
00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:14,040
Speaker 1: you're missing out on because you're not selling on Shopify.

129
00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:18,440
Speaker 1: And what does it sound like with Shopify? Ah? Much better.

130
00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,400
Speaker 1: Shopify is the commerce platform.

131
00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:22,000
Speaker 6: That you can trust.

132
00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:26,400
Speaker 1: They're revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide. They put you in

133
00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:30,120
Speaker 1: control of every sales channel. So whether you're selling woven

134
00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:35,320
Speaker 1: bags from Shopify's in person POS system or offering organic

135
00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:40,080
Speaker 1: tomato paste on Shopify's all in one e commerce platform.

136
00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:40,760
Speaker 6: You are covered.

137
00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:44,320
Speaker 1: For example, we sell stuff online ourselves if you're interested

138
00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:47,640
Speaker 1: in buying a trust Me T shirt, and that alone

139
00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:49,360
Speaker 1: is a lot to keep up with. So if you're

140
00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,400
Speaker 1: running your own business with even more inventory, you need

141
00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:52,800
Speaker 1: to give.

142
00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:53,840
Speaker 6: Shopify a try.

143
00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,520
Speaker 1: Shopify has the internet's best converting checkout, and their award

144
00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:00,159
Speaker 1: winning help is there to support your success every step

145
00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,719
Speaker 1: of the way. This is possibility powered by Shopify. Sign

146
00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,479
Speaker 1: up for a one dollar per month trial period at

147
00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:10,160
Speaker 1: shopify dot com slash trust me all lowercase go to

148
00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,600
Speaker 1: shopify dot com slash trust me to take your business

149
00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:17,200
Speaker 1: to the next level today Shopify dot com slash trust me.

150
00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:30,240
Speaker 2: Welcome Martin to trust Me. Thank you for joining us.

151
00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:31,760
Speaker 5: Thanks Roving, appreciate it.

152
00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:34,800
Speaker 2: So we have you on today because I had tweeted

153
00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:37,119
Speaker 2: a while ago and I was still using Twitter looking

154
00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:41,160
Speaker 2: for dudes who had been big fans of a man

155
00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,240
Speaker 2: Jordan Peterson and or a Ben Shapiro, of these kind

156
00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,600
Speaker 2: of incendiary Internet men, and you were one of the

157
00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,480
Speaker 2: people who responded. And yeah, I'm super curious to hear

158
00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:52,840
Speaker 2: your story today. So first of all, how old were

159
00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,560
Speaker 2: you when you first saw that first Jordan Peterson video?

160
00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:56,840
Speaker 2: And where were you at in your life.

161
00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:59,320
Speaker 5: It's got to be when I was like sixteen seventeen young,

162
00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:02,600
Speaker 5: I'm still figuring out what I was about and how

163
00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:04,920
Speaker 5: to be a person, how to interact with other people.

164
00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:07,000
Speaker 5: So I was like still in high school I mean,

165
00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:09,600
Speaker 5: I would listen to the Ben Shapiro podcast like every

166
00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:11,720
Speaker 5: day on the way to school. I thought about it more.

167
00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:13,320
Speaker 5: It was definitely Shapiro first, and.

168
00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:15,640
Speaker 2: Then Peterson, Oh was it okay? Yeah?

169
00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:17,000
Speaker 5: I mean I spend a lot of my time watching

170
00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:21,040
Speaker 5: these like YouTube compilations, things that were fed to me

171
00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,200
Speaker 5: through like the YouTube Recommended Algorithm and stuff where it's

172
00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:26,560
Speaker 5: like some picture of some girl with like blue hair

173
00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:28,960
Speaker 5: or whatever. It's like that one picture of right after

174
00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:30,720
Speaker 5: the Trump election there's a picture of a woman like

175
00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:34,800
Speaker 5: crying or whatever, and they've used that consistently, like over

176
00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:37,080
Speaker 5: the last like six years. If you see the picture,

177
00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,280
Speaker 5: you know what I mean. But this sort of image

178
00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,960
Speaker 5: of like owning some dumb college student who's in like

179
00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:44,040
Speaker 5: the liberal arts or whatever.

180
00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:46,640
Speaker 1: I love that you're in high school and you're like

181
00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:48,800
Speaker 1: I want to own a college student.

182
00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:49,880
Speaker 6: Got Yeah.

183
00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,320
Speaker 5: I mean I think a big part of that comes from,

184
00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:57,320
Speaker 5: like there's a lot of insecurity at that time of

185
00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,280
Speaker 5: like anyone's life right where you don't know like you're

186
00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,280
Speaker 5: really about, you don't know like what you want to

187
00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:04,720
Speaker 5: do in your life. You don't know how to communicate

188
00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:08,520
Speaker 5: with people effectively, and so there's a big feeling of powerlessness.

189
00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:10,960
Speaker 1: Where did you grow up? Were other people around you

190
00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:13,960
Speaker 1: also listening to the same thing or were you completely

191
00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:14,800
Speaker 1: alone in this?

192
00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:19,240
Speaker 5: I grew up a suburb of Chicago, relatively affluent place.

193
00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:22,600
Speaker 5: I've been trying to like pin down what sort of

194
00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:27,160
Speaker 5: political sphere that area is in, because I think a

195
00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:29,400
Speaker 5: lot of people they would describe themselves as like the

196
00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:36,360
Speaker 5: classic like socially liberal, fistally conservative, like a relatively conservative policy,

197
00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:38,520
Speaker 5: but you smile at people and you're like nice to

198
00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:42,480
Speaker 5: them individually. I think a part of me recognized a

199
00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,240
Speaker 5: incoherence there where it's like, well, you support all these

200
00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,680
Speaker 5: like conservative policies, but then you're not following through with

201
00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:53,559
Speaker 5: that in this whole different sphere, and so your ideology

202
00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:56,040
Speaker 5: doesn't make sense. And so then when you see people

203
00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:01,720
Speaker 5: attacking that socially liberal angle, it feels like you're reaching

204
00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,400
Speaker 5: a more coherent worldview. If that makes sense, I'm butchering it,

205
00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:07,480
Speaker 5: but I hope that makes sense.

206
00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:09,560
Speaker 2: No, no, no, that makes sense. You're like, these people are

207
00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,320
Speaker 2: not being consistent with what they claim that they believe,

208
00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:15,040
Speaker 2: and I'm trying to like make things make sense in

209
00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:15,520
Speaker 2: the world.

210
00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:18,880
Speaker 5: What year was this, approximately, it was right before the

211
00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:20,040
Speaker 5: Trump election, it must have been.

212
00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:22,679
Speaker 2: So I'm curious about, like, obviously that was a very

213
00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,760
Speaker 2: charge time politically in the United States. Like did you

214
00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:30,920
Speaker 2: feel like you, as a young white guy, were like

215
00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:36,280
Speaker 2: somehow being diminished or your role was changing, or like

216
00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,319
Speaker 2: you like, what did you feel about that part of things?

217
00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think from an identity angle, there was a

218
00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:45,480
Speaker 5: big push from the right of like there's like this

219
00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,559
Speaker 5: swing in the other direction, like things were not equal before.

220
00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:52,160
Speaker 5: Like I don't think anybody approaches like history from that

221
00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:54,800
Speaker 5: different angle than that, like things really bad before, but

222
00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:57,000
Speaker 5: now you know, things are basically fine, but these like

223
00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:59,760
Speaker 5: dastardly libs are like trying to swing it in the

224
00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,280
Speaker 5: other direction, at least from a social angle. And so

225
00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:07,240
Speaker 5: when there's conversations about like privilege or about identity impacting

226
00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,400
Speaker 5: how you engage with the world, I sort of had

227
00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,600
Speaker 5: an instant reaction of hostility to that that I think

228
00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:15,560
Speaker 5: a lot of people in that position had at that

229
00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,960
Speaker 5: time and a lot of people still have, where that

230
00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:22,400
Speaker 5: feels like, you know, my experience is being diminished somehow.

231
00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:26,000
Speaker 5: Then when someone shows up and is like, well, actually,

232
00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,800
Speaker 5: these people are hysterical and your experience is valid. That's

233
00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:31,400
Speaker 5: incredibly attractive.

234
00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:33,200
Speaker 6: Because in a way, you're correct.

235
00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:37,360
Speaker 1: Your old world is being diminished and it is a

236
00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,680
Speaker 1: new world where the power structure is changing. So it

237
00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:44,120
Speaker 1: makes sense that someone would be like, hold on a second.

238
00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:46,600
Speaker 6: The cognitive dissonance here is a lot.

239
00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:48,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, well there's some quote like a quality feels like

240
00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:50,520
Speaker 5: oppression or something when you're right.

241
00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:54,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, you had mentioned something to me when we spoke

242
00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:58,800
Speaker 2: about how you were believed in school. Is that acurage

243
00:11:58,800 --> 00:11:59,440
Speaker 2: I could do right?

244
00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:00,000
Speaker 5: For sure?

245
00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,560
Speaker 2: And Ben Shapiro is this like small, kind of whiney

246
00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:08,760
Speaker 2: sounding guy who's like owning lives and like eviscerating people.

247
00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:11,480
Speaker 2: Can you speak to how that sort of resonated with

248
00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:13,559
Speaker 2: you in that part of your life?

249
00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:17,160
Speaker 5: So yeah, I was a real scrawny kid. I was

250
00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,199
Speaker 5: on a not even junior varsity soccer team. It was

251
00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:22,440
Speaker 5: just the one that they let anybody on. And I

252
00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:24,680
Speaker 5: remember our coach ranked us and I was second to

253
00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:31,679
Speaker 5: last in the public ranking. Yet it is rough. And

254
00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,240
Speaker 5: that's the problem is that when I think you have

255
00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,520
Speaker 5: this sort of insecurity and feeling of powerlessness, anything that

256
00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:43,120
Speaker 5: appears like you can be strong with relatively minimal effort.

257
00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:45,080
Speaker 5: You can sort of turn the tables in a way

258
00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:49,520
Speaker 5: like that's a very enticing belief system. And so I

259
00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:53,280
Speaker 5: had a very, very just unhappy childhood. I just remember

260
00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:56,600
Speaker 5: being angry all the time at just not having control

261
00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:59,080
Speaker 5: over my life. And so that's part of it, is

262
00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:02,520
Speaker 5: that I didn't feel powerful in any way other than

263
00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:05,240
Speaker 5: in academics. And even then I didn't really dry that hard,

264
00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:07,120
Speaker 5: and I was just kind I just kind of was

265
00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:10,000
Speaker 5: good enough at school to sort of breeze by. And

266
00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:14,080
Speaker 5: so when this like scrawny dude shows up, not scrownny,

267
00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:20,480
Speaker 5: he's stout, I guess he's squat slight, he's slight, that's right.

268
00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:24,320
Speaker 5: When this gnome shows up who's very like, he gives

269
00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:27,680
Speaker 5: the appearance of like intellectual prowess, and so in a way,

270
00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:29,600
Speaker 5: you can see yourself in that, and you're like, well,

271
00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,240
Speaker 5: I can sort of wield words like a weapon like

272
00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:35,760
Speaker 5: this guy does. Thinking about this earlier, there's always like

273
00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:40,240
Speaker 5: a sort of violence to how he's described in his

274
00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:44,000
Speaker 5: own like words in his own productions, which he destroys

275
00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,560
Speaker 5: somebody or right, you were using those words earlier, and

276
00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:49,360
Speaker 5: it's like, yes, that words of aggression and violence are

277
00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:49,959
Speaker 5: being used.

278
00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:52,560
Speaker 2: Fascinating. I didn't think about that.

279
00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, go on, Yeah, And I think it's almost like

280
00:13:55,840 --> 00:14:00,240
Speaker 5: hinting at some insecurity of masculinity underneath that where it's like, oh, well,

281
00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:03,440
Speaker 5: like we're not allowed to be violent in like physical ways,

282
00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,800
Speaker 5: and so you can be violent through how you speak

283
00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:10,080
Speaker 5: to people and how you dismantle them intellectually in the

284
00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:11,880
Speaker 5: marketplace of ideas or whatever.

285
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:16,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, And it seems like that would resonate

286
00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:20,200
Speaker 2: so much with somebody who has experienced bullying in a

287
00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:22,880
Speaker 2: sense of powerlessness, because you know, like in the fifties

288
00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:24,960
Speaker 2: or whatever, you go into the schoolyard and you have

289
00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:26,480
Speaker 2: a fight. I mean, and people still do that, but

290
00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:30,000
Speaker 2: I imagine that for someone who's scrawny and maybe fighting

291
00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,640
Speaker 2: isn't there, you know, strong suit, this would be a

292
00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:36,120
Speaker 2: way to feel like I can fight back, I can

293
00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:37,760
Speaker 2: throw a punch. I'm just going to do it with

294
00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:39,320
Speaker 2: my words. I'm going to do it with my ideas,

295
00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:41,840
Speaker 2: and I'm going to make them feel bad so that

296
00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:42,680
Speaker 2: I don't feel bad.

297
00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,840
Speaker 5: That's exactly right. I remember, like in middle school is

298
00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:49,360
Speaker 5: really vicious, that was really ostracized, and I would come

299
00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:53,680
Speaker 5: home just like viscerally upset and just angry. And I

300
00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:55,800
Speaker 5: would talk with my mom about it pretty much every day,

301
00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,880
Speaker 5: and she kept telling me like, just ignore what people

302
00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,560
Speaker 5: are saying to you. And I kept pushing back on that,

303
00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,640
Speaker 5: just like it's not it doesn't make it better. She

304
00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:06,680
Speaker 5: was like, well, just tell how about you just tell

305
00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:10,280
Speaker 5: them you're smarter than that, like she said something to

306
00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:12,600
Speaker 5: that effect. I was like, all right, And then I

307
00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:14,800
Speaker 5: went to school. I think the next day, this group

308
00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,840
Speaker 5: of middle school girls, who are I think probably the

309
00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:23,640
Speaker 5: most vicious species on the planet, we're being mean to

310
00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:25,760
Speaker 5: me in some way. And I said, you know, I

311
00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,760
Speaker 5: will always be smarter than you. I will always be

312
00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:31,640
Speaker 5: more intelligent. And they didn't have a response. And that

313
00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:34,280
Speaker 5: was the first time I think I felt like I

314
00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,040
Speaker 5: had won some sort of engagement.

315
00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:39,640
Speaker 6: Oh sounds like you did.

316
00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:42,160
Speaker 5: I did. I owned her.

317
00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:46,080
Speaker 6: I'm really mad at them.

318
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:48,000
Speaker 5: I'm proud. I'm still proud of myself for that.

319
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:51,720
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now I'm jumping to the wrong side, But yes,

320
00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:53,120
Speaker 1: I get that.

321
00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:55,440
Speaker 6: That's awesome. I have a little adrenaline rush from that.

322
00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I see how that could start becoming more of

323
00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:01,239
Speaker 1: a defense mechanism.

324
00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:04,400
Speaker 6: More Bean Shapiro, more information.

325
00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,480
Speaker 1: She talks about etiquette, get your fingers out of your mouth.

326
00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:11,280
Speaker 3: She talks about where to find a deal.

327
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:12,960
Speaker 2: You know, if you sell me something on Instagram, I

328
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:13,240
Speaker 2: buy it.

329
00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:15,360
Speaker 6: Whoever markets to me does a fabulous job.

330
00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:18,080
Speaker 3: She talks about the economy. We used to joke that'll

331
00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:19,520
Speaker 3: be the thing to send them to therapy.

332
00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:20,960
Speaker 6: Okay, we're creating jobs.

333
00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:21,960
Speaker 2: Can we look at it that way?

334
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:23,400
Speaker 3: She talks about parenting.

335
00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:24,800
Speaker 6: These kids want to come home.

336
00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,080
Speaker 3: They don't want to leave, they don't want to drive,

337
00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:29,480
Speaker 3: they want to stay in the womb. Let's talk with

338
00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:33,280
Speaker 3: Heather Debrow every Thursday on podcast one or wherever you

339
00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:35,360
Speaker 3: get your podcasts.

340
00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:42,160
Speaker 2: So YouTube starts feeding you these videos, and you also

341
00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:46,200
Speaker 2: come upon Jordan Peterson. Right, Who does Jordan Peterson represent

342
00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:48,400
Speaker 2: to you in that era? If Ben Shapiro is sort

343
00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,160
Speaker 2: of a he's kind of you, what is Jordan Peterson.

344
00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:53,920
Speaker 5: Yeah. I don't think anybody who is a huge fan

345
00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,720
Speaker 5: of Jordan Peterson has a very strong dead figure, at

346
00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,760
Speaker 5: least in their mind. Interesting, Like, my dad was a

347
00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,000
Speaker 5: that work and stuff. I think he would even agree

348
00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:03,600
Speaker 5: that during my childhood he had a lot of anger

349
00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:08,160
Speaker 5: problems that he's like working through now and trying to reconcile. Yeah,

350
00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,080
Speaker 5: I think there's a figure of paternity there that I

351
00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:13,760
Speaker 5: think even like his fans would agree with that, Like

352
00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:15,560
Speaker 5: they would agree with it in a more annoying way,

353
00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:17,880
Speaker 5: but where they would say, like, oh, he represents the

354
00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:21,360
Speaker 5: ideal of the father or whatever, but that's like right,

355
00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:23,640
Speaker 5: but like they would agree with that that he sort

356
00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,320
Speaker 5: of embodies a father figure that a lot that a

357
00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,000
Speaker 5: lot of people don't necessarily have in their lives already.

358
00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:33,960
Speaker 2: These are like very understandable instincts, Like we all want

359
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:35,680
Speaker 2: to feel like we have a little bit of power

360
00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:37,600
Speaker 2: in our lives. We all want to have someone who

361
00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:39,960
Speaker 2: cares about us and tells us how to do things

362
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,440
Speaker 2: because the world is fucking chaotic and scary, and especially

363
00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:46,280
Speaker 2: in a time of like great social change, you know,

364
00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:48,840
Speaker 2: like it is a really scary time. And I can

365
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,199
Speaker 2: totally understand why you would see someone like that and

366
00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:58,440
Speaker 2: be like, ah, some structure, some order to use his word,

367
00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:02,000
Speaker 2: So tell us about like this sort of period of

368
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,959
Speaker 2: discovery of ideas, Like what were some of the things

369
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,840
Speaker 2: that you started to sort of consume and believe.

370
00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:09,800
Speaker 5: The first piece video I saw, and I think the

371
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:11,399
Speaker 5: first one a lot of people saw it was the

372
00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:14,400
Speaker 5: first time he really went viral for anything. Is when

373
00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:18,760
Speaker 5: he's at University of Toronto and sort of outside in

374
00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,959
Speaker 5: this crowd, in this like sea of like psychology students,

375
00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,359
Speaker 5: I guess, yelling at them about this bill that just

376
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,920
Speaker 5: was introduced in Kinada C. Sixteen, which I think added

377
00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:32,680
Speaker 5: gender identity into the sort of umbrella of protected classes

378
00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:38,080
Speaker 5: in Canada. And he in that sort of environment where

379
00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:40,520
Speaker 5: he was sort of not shouting, but I guess he

380
00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,720
Speaker 5: was sort of shouting but sort of standing up to

381
00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:46,240
Speaker 5: this like mob was I think the imagery that was

382
00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,480
Speaker 5: there about something that I really knew nothing about. It's

383
00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,200
Speaker 5: not like we had any discussion of trans anything in

384
00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,480
Speaker 5: sex AD. So what that looks like to someone just

385
00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,560
Speaker 5: showing up there is this angry mob of people like

386
00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:03,280
Speaker 5: shouting down this the student's suspenders, who's like just trying

387
00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:07,000
Speaker 5: to get his ideas out there. He's just trying to

388
00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:09,640
Speaker 5: like speak and they're not letting him speak and that's

389
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:10,240
Speaker 5: like not fair.

390
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:12,720
Speaker 6: So it's very underdog esque.

391
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,199
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, exactly, despite the fact that he's like he

392
00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:18,879
Speaker 5: was a tenured professor there and it's like, well, actually,

393
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,040
Speaker 5: it was kind of like these students are trying to

394
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,720
Speaker 5: express themselves in their way, and they don't have any

395
00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:27,760
Speaker 5: authority in that matter. I think there's like an that

396
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:32,320
Speaker 5: sort of inversion of power dynamics of roles, where it's

397
00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,920
Speaker 5: always seen as this like liberal mob is like really

398
00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:38,760
Speaker 5: in charge, and like these radicals who are on the

399
00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:40,840
Speaker 5: left are in control of the culture and they're in

400
00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:42,880
Speaker 5: control of what is allowed to be said, and that's

401
00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,480
Speaker 5: not fair. I think that's sort of a running thread

402
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,679
Speaker 5: through a lot of this sort of sphere is that

403
00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:53,640
Speaker 5: there's you are being victimized by the radical liberal mob

404
00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:56,600
Speaker 5: who are coming to trains or kids or whatever is

405
00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:58,600
Speaker 5: what it is more recently, But back then I think

406
00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,280
Speaker 5: it was more like they're trying to silence people. That

407
00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:02,919
Speaker 5: was the big ones that they approached it through a

408
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,800
Speaker 5: free speech angle, and that was exactly what was happening

409
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:09,520
Speaker 5: with Peterson that video. I think his primary like wowed

410
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:11,840
Speaker 5: objection to all of this was that like he was

411
00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:14,400
Speaker 5: saying that you could be arrested for misgendering someone, which

412
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:18,359
Speaker 5: turned out to be completely on true. Not yeah, nothing

413
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:19,440
Speaker 5: completely wrong.

414
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:23,320
Speaker 2: I was reading that article by his former colleague who

415
00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,440
Speaker 2: recommended him to the University of Toronto and then regretted it.

416
00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:29,719
Speaker 2: You guys don't know, basically, That's what it is. That

417
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:31,240
Speaker 2: there was a man who used to be friends with

418
00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:33,760
Speaker 2: who was at the University of Toronto with him and

419
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:35,359
Speaker 2: recommended him and was kind of pushing for him to

420
00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:37,200
Speaker 2: be there because he was like, he's a maverick, he's

421
00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:40,560
Speaker 2: you know, eccentric, he's got crazy ideas. He'll freshen things

422
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,000
Speaker 2: up here, and then wrote this really long and detailed

423
00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,679
Speaker 2: article about how his view of Jordan Peterson then changed

424
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:51,080
Speaker 2: over time and now he regrets having recommended him because

425
00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,679
Speaker 2: now he has this huge platform and he's like been

426
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,160
Speaker 2: spreading some really harmful ideology which he claims he does

427
00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,280
Speaker 2: not have. Something that I thought was interesting in that

428
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,880
Speaker 2: article that he mentioned. Here's a quote from the guy

429
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,040
Speaker 2: whose name is Bernard Schiff. He said, Jordan has studied

430
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:10,080
Speaker 2: and understands authoritarian, demagogic leaders. They know how to attract

431
00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:12,439
Speaker 2: a following. In an interview with Ethan Klein in an

432
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:14,960
Speaker 2: H three podcast, Jordan describes as such, leaders learn to

433
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,600
Speaker 2: repeat those things which make the crowd roar, and not

434
00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,439
Speaker 2: repeat those things that do not The crowd roared the

435
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,920
Speaker 2: first time Jordan opposed the so called transgender agenda, perhaps

436
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,000
Speaker 2: they would roar again. Whether it made sense or not.

437
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,440
Speaker 2: So I just think that's a really interesting lens through

438
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,560
Speaker 2: which to look at this stuff, because it really is

439
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,399
Speaker 2: for whatever reason. I mean, there are different theories on

440
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,600
Speaker 2: why it's happening now, but whichever it is, the concept

441
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:42,479
Speaker 2: of trans people existing and being allowed to, you know,

442
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:47,119
Speaker 2: live freely and openly without any kind of discrimination is

443
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,000
Speaker 2: something that is a huge hot topic right now amongst

444
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,720
Speaker 2: the conservative community. I even have people coming to my

445
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 2: page right now because I was just on this Netflix show,

446
00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:57,200
Speaker 2: So I have more people coming to my page seeing

447
00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,639
Speaker 2: that I have pronouns in my bio and like harassing

448
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:02,320
Speaker 2: me in the comments because of it and telling me

449
00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:04,639
Speaker 2: that I'm actually the one in a cult. I'm like,

450
00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,639
Speaker 2: y'all are very confused, But it is clearly like this

451
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,080
Speaker 2: is a topic that, like, of all the topics that

452
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,919
Speaker 2: he probably tried and conservative politicians probably tried, this is

453
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,560
Speaker 2: the one that he's like been doubling down on and

454
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 2: like it has worked in terms of getting his followers

455
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,520
Speaker 2: riled up, getting his audience to grow, And it is

456
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 2: interesting just to observe how he's fixated on that thing.

457
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 2: As a psychology professor who specializes in like Youngian ideas

458
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,960
Speaker 2: like anyway, just on aside. But it all started with

459
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:40,359
Speaker 2: that video. That video got him so much audience. It

460
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:42,880
Speaker 2: did so much for him and gave him that platform

461
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,919
Speaker 2: that he wanted. So you know, then he continued on

462
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:47,720
Speaker 2: that path. That's just for people who do not have

463
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,480
Speaker 2: the context for Jordan Peterson. Sorry for the aside, Martin

464
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:50,880
Speaker 2: go on.

465
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,120
Speaker 5: So that was the first sort of introduction I had

466
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,399
Speaker 5: to him, along with a bunch of other people, and

467
00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 5: then that sort of let me down there, adohole, like

468
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,000
Speaker 5: looking up, who this guy is, what he's about. I

469
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 5: watched all of his Bible series stuff all this. He

470
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 5: had these lectures in this giant auditorium where he would

471
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,679
Speaker 5: just sort of have some like PowerPoint slides and just

472
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:12,200
Speaker 5: go on for like four hours straight.

473
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:14,360
Speaker 6: You mean like the Bible Bible?

474
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:15,000
Speaker 5: Yeah?

475
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, were you religious?

476
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,880
Speaker 5: No? So I was raised like Lutheran. I was going

477
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 5: to church and stuff, but I never really bought in

478
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 5: to any of that stuff. But he was doing lectures

479
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,159
Speaker 5: on the Bible stories from like what do you call

480
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:33,119
Speaker 5: the scholarly perspective and sort of a literary angle, and

481
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:37,360
Speaker 5: then sort of pairing a lot of his psychological stuff

482
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 5: with what's told in the Bible in order to sort

483
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 5: of make the argument that the stories in the Bible

484
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 5: have a truth to them that underlies like the entire

485
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,160
Speaker 5: Biblical narrative that is psychologically true, like.

486
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 1: A Joseph Campbell Hero's journey type of biblical thing, like young.

487
00:23:58,520 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 5: More literal than that.

488
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:05,040
Speaker 1: Really yeah, so like I'm like I believe in the Bible.

489
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,200
Speaker 5: One example is that he he had this whole thing

490
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 5: about the snake in the Garden of Eden where yeah,

491
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,400
Speaker 5: oh yeah, where he's like, well, if you look at

492
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 5: like why humans evolved, like great eyesight that we have,

493
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 5: he would say that, like we've evolved this like great

494
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 5: ability of eyesight, and the reason that we evolved that

495
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 5: is in order to a forage for fruit and food

496
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:36,200
Speaker 5: and be to avoid snakes. Snakes. He was like, yeah,

497
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,159
Speaker 5: that's our like predator, so like we evolved to do that.

498
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 5: And so he goes, yeah, so like this story about

499
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:46,399
Speaker 5: snakes and fruit giving people vision is like literally true.

500
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:47,400
Speaker 2: Wow.

501
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 5: So yeah, he had stuff like that for like almost every.

502
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 6: Explain that we weren't supposed to eat it.

503
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 5: Well, you can't think about it that hard.

504
00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:59,919
Speaker 2: Our fear of apples, Megan, we are all a ver

505
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 2: to apples obviously.

506
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 5: Well that's the thing too is and then like from

507
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:06,359
Speaker 5: that he would be like, well, and then in snow

508
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 5: White there's the apple too, and that's like, oh my god. Right,

509
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,680
Speaker 5: there's a whole spectrum of like narratives. He's obsessed with stories.

510
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 5: He thinks that something that underlies stories is always literally true.

511
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,400
Speaker 6: I could get slighted down that rabbit hole very easily.

512
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's like cool, It's like yeah, well, and.

513
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,399
Speaker 2: It is like Joseph Campbell, like you seeing parallels and

514
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 2: stories throughout history and trying to understand like the basis

515
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 2: for them. Why do we all see the same kind

516
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,639
Speaker 2: of religious figure you know, Yeah, sure it's interesting, but

517
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 2: it's not science.

518
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 5: Well yeah, and it's his biggest overarching sort of theme.

519
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:46,400
Speaker 5: I think he would probably call it like a Young

520
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:48,920
Speaker 5: Union theme or something. Is this idea of like order

521
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,440
Speaker 5: and chaos? And he's like, yeah, through like every story

522
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 5: structure that's like passed down through the generations. Well, like

523
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 5: the Bible lasted so long, so there must be something

524
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,160
Speaker 5: in there that's like literally true, like says that about

525
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,400
Speaker 5: like all great works of literature. So his big thing

526
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,880
Speaker 5: is like order and chaos. That's like what underlies all

527
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,680
Speaker 5: of human interaction in human society, and that's why it's

528
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 5: in the Bible and stuff.

529
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 2: I love a hyper simplified view of the world that

530
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 2: just boils everything down to the most easy to understand.

531
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 6: Okay, that's true, I truly do.

532
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 1: I'm like feeling yes, like I could see myself being like.

533
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 6: Cool, time to take this class. Is he a literal Christian?

534
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 5: So he believes that everyone believes in God, whether or

535
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 5: not they admit it.

536
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 2: He's pretending not to.

537
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 5: Okay, yeah, you are flash. So he's like, well, he

538
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 5: boils everything down like to the most basic vocabulary where

539
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 5: he's like where he's like, well, it just depends on

540
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 5: what you mean by God, and really you do worship

541
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 5: some kind of ideal and it's like okay, well there's

542
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 5: like something there in that, like we all have some

543
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 5: sort of like aspirate I guess, but to call that

544
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 5: a belief in God is kind of reductionistic. Yes, yeah, yeah.

545
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 5: He's typically very careful not to pin himself down religiously

546
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 5: or politically. He used to say a lot that he

547
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 5: was on the liberal side of things. I think that's

548
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 5: probably less plausible now that he's signed on the daily wire. Yeah,

549
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 5: that sort of nebulousness of his worldview, never committing himself

550
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 5: to one like ideology, it makes him significantly more attractive

551
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:31,880
Speaker 5: to a wider audience.

552
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 2: What you're saying about, how he questions the meaning of

553
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 2: the word just sort of evade answering any question in

554
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:42,119
Speaker 2: a concrete way is so funny. I mean, it's maddening

555
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 2: to watch. But you ask him a question and he

556
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 2: will literally ask you, well, what do you mean by

557
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 2: and he'll pick just a random word in the sentence

558
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 2: and then like keep going to basically confuse you and

559
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 2: obfuscate any clarity in what he is actually trying to say.

560
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 1: So, Jordan Peterson believes that men and women are on

561
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 1: opposite sides of order and chaos.

562
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 6: Is that correct?

563
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 5: So here's a trick is anytime you try and make

564
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,199
Speaker 5: some statement of like what he believes, he will disagree

565
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,640
Speaker 5: in some way. He'll never agree. Well, yeah, yeah, it's

566
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 5: so fun His response to that would be like, well,

567
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 5: the young and like ideal of man and woman are

568
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,400
Speaker 5: separated in that way, and yeah, like some women can

569
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,679
Speaker 5: have more conscientiousness or whatever in them that makes them

570
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,400
Speaker 5: more orderly, and some men this way. But generally speaking,

571
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 5: they're like diametrically opposed in that way. Yes, I want to.

572
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 3: See something really scary. Check out be Very.

573
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 2: Afraid, Oh Horror podcast, where I, Gabby Rapp, and my.

574
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 3: Co host Brian Liberty discuss.

575
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 2: Dissect, and deconstruct the scariest scenes ever filmed.

576
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 5: Every Tuesday, we're covering a new film or TV show,

577
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 5: talking about familiar favorites, new releases, and deep comments from

578
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 5: Beetlejuice to Barbarian Funny Games to Fright.

579
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 2: Night Motel Hell to Midnight.

580
00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 3: Mass and everything in between.

581
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 2: Be Very Great episodes released every Tuesday on podcast one

582
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts. A lot of this

583
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 2: I feel like, because as you're saying he's so evasive,

584
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 2: a lot of it is like sort of implied and

585
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 2: like you have to kind of read between the lines,

586
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 2: which is what it makes it so hard to like

587
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 2: immediately detect why some of his ideas are really harmful

588
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 2: on the surface, I think for someone who's like not

589
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 2: doing a deep dive, but the more you kind of

590
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 2: dig in, there really is this sort of inherent worldview

591
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 2: about the order versus chaos, and this like pro hierarchical

592
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 2: way of thinking that in my opinion is really dangerous.

593
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 2: But I would love you to speak to how you

594
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 2: sort of took that in this like idea of order

595
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 2: versus chass So what that meant to you when you

596
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 2: are consuming this content?

597
00:29:54,160 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it's a very simple yet broad understanding

598
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 5: of the world and sort of a lens or a

599
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 5: filter through which to view everything, which is what he Yeah,

600
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 5: it's what he says. Ideology is is like a pair

601
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,719
Speaker 5: of glasses, like a filter that through which you can

602
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 5: exceed the world, and you can't really engage with anything

603
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 5: without that lens. It's like necessary for you to be

604
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 5: able to go through life. And so this idea of

605
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,479
Speaker 5: like order versus chaos is super attractive because in literally

606
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 5: any context you can say that it's an order chaos thing.

607
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 5: It's it's it's applicable to literally everything.

608
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 2: So who's the order and who's the chaos in this interview?

609
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 5: Uh, well, I'm the man here, so.

610
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, right, gotcha, I'm always the chaos. Let's just say it.

611
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 2: I'm like order, but like with a hint of chaos.

612
00:30:55,600 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 5: Okay, yeah, I'll be full order. I'll just yeah. Yeah.

613
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 5: But it's like you can approach every interaction that you

614
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 5: have with anybody through that lens, and if you sort

615
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 5: of think about it for like five minutes, you can

616
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 5: sort of create a coherent argument for that idea. And

617
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 5: then of course when you apply that to the political

618
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 5: sphere there you get into really dodgy territory of like

619
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 5: well he so he pretty firmly says that, like, yeah,

620
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 5: liberals are on the side of like progressive change, and

621
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 5: so that's sort of a chaotic. You're injecting chaos into

622
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 5: an orderly structure. And he's like, well, yeah, there is

623
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 5: such a thing as too much order. You give examples

624
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 5: of like Hitler, Stalin, Nazis, whatever. And then he'll say, well,

625
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 5: there's you know, too much order on both the left

626
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 5: and the right, and there's too much chaos on both

627
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 5: the left and the right, and so to achieve this

628
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 5: like balance. And then he'll like do it a whole

629
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 5: aside about like yin and yang and that every every

630
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 5: religion has this like order chaos thing. So they're all

631
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 5: pointing at this same idea that just so happens to

632
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 5: be exactly what he believes.

633
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: Right right, And it's like the universe and black holes

634
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: and whatever. It's reminding me of Oppenheimer, and like how

635
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 1: much of life can be thought of through philosophy, and

636
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: how much of it is you know, true blue on

637
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 1: the ground. We're making a bomb kind of right, at.

638
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 2: A certain point you are living in the world, and yeah,

639
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 2: these ideas are not hypothetical anymore. They translate to actual

640
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 2: reality bombs.

641
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 6: Right, yeah.

642
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, So in terms of how you started to well,

643
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 2: first of all, how long were you kind of into these.

644
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 5: Guys twenty fifteen to twenty nineteen, the Golden years, so.

645
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 2: Like sixteen to twenty ish. Okay, so interesting. Did you

646
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 2: find that, like your way of moving through the world

647
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 2: changed in any way, that, like your way of interacting

648
00:32:58,360 --> 00:32:59,479
Speaker 2: with people change in anyway?

649
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, so approaching the world through this lens

650
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 5: of like everything is chaos in order, and like everything

651
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 5: is everyone's religious, even if they don't admit it, and

652
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 5: like it is a closed minded view of the world,

653
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 5: like even if you you can argue that it's like

654
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 5: open like it's open minded. You're like connecting everyone's experience

655
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 5: to this one like underlying truth. But it's like no,

656
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 5: you're very much not listening to people and respecting them

657
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 5: as like individual human beings with their own experiences, you're

658
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 5: lumping them into categories based on what you believe about

659
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 5: psychology and whatever, and so yeah, I approached that the

660
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 5: world in a very closed minded way, in that way

661
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 5: where you know, immediately un meeting someone that could pretty

662
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 5: quickly categorize them in a you know way that felt comfortable.

663
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 1: If I might be so bold, I imagine this is

664
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 1: one of the happiest times of your life, or like

665
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 1: sturdiest times of your life, or our safest feeling times

666
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: of your life.

667
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 5: Well, well, it sort of felt like I was approaching

668
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 5: the world with this like secret knowledge and like if

669
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 5: I would evangelized to some degree some people, I would

670
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 5: like show this stuff too, and they would be like,

671
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 5: I have to go to class. It's what you're saying

672
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:29,760
Speaker 5: is like something at some point you gotta live in

673
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 5: the real world. Like yeah, so yeah, I mean it

674
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 5: was it was a very further insecure time where I

675
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 5: was sort of always I always had this like nagging

676
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 5: voice in the back of my head to like always

677
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:52,879
Speaker 5: contextualize this stuff in this like intellectually stimulating way. I mean,

678
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 5: it's it's that like baby game of like putting square

679
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 5: square blocks and square holes, like just in your brain

680
00:34:58,360 --> 00:34:58,919
Speaker 5: all the time.

681
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,359
Speaker 2: How does this fit into my worldview? How does this

682
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 2: fit into my worldview?

683
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 1: That has to me an inherent satisfaction to it.

684
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 2: No, but it is, I mean it is. It does

685
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 2: bring a feeling of safety, obviously in security, and we're like, ah,

686
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,279
Speaker 2: I know how the world works. I have I have

687
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 2: it all figured out, and I just have to like

688
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 2: find the pattern, looking for the pattern and finding the pattern,

689
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,359
Speaker 2: which inevitably will do because confirmation bias is a thing

690
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 2: is very intoxicating. I mean, it feels better than Again,

691
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 2: We've talked about this before many times, but the world

692
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 2: is chaotic, it's scary, it's unpredictable. You know, natural disasters happen,

693
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 2: Our partners can leave us, we can lose our jobs,

694
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 2: climate change is happening. The world is divided and people

695
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:55,359
Speaker 2: are there's mass shootings. Like everything is scary. So if

696
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 2: you can boil it all down and again like reduce

697
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 2: it to this thing that's very simple, like a of course,

698
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 2: it's going to feel good. Steve was wondering were you

699
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 2: in college at the time, Yeah, okay, yeah, what were

700
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 2: you studying?

701
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 5: So I went to an engineering school to do mechanical

702
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 5: engineering because at that I think at that time there

703
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 5: was a bit and I think it's still happening now.

704
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 5: There was a big push of like, global arts are

705
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 5: all bullshit, and like the only economically viable and conservatively

706
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 5: correct career choice is like trade school or doing like

707
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:37,320
Speaker 5: engineering or something, or I guess having a podcast seems

708
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:38,920
Speaker 5: to be one as well as a good job.

709
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:40,760
Speaker 6: Guys.

710
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:47,319
Speaker 5: Yeah. And then in twenty nineteen, right, Yeah, it was

711
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 5: in twenty nineteen, right after I sort of fell out

712
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 5: of all this that I switched down from a Bachelor

713
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 5: of Science to a Bachelor of Arts in mechanical engineering

714
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 5: and picked up with religious studies double major, and then

715
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 5: law school after that.

716
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 2: So you're real smart? Yeah, yeah, I.

717
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:09,320
Speaker 5: Said, I'm good at school. It's not a it's really

718
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,360
Speaker 5: not a smart, not smart thing. I can take tests.

719
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 2: If you now look back at yourself in this time period,

720
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 2: at this age, like if you could like.

721
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 1: Talk to yourself, then like what what was Yeah, you're

722
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 1: on a time machine talking to yourself back in the day.

723
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 1: Do you have any arguments to say, hey, let's go

724
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:30,959
Speaker 1: outside and play some frisbee instead of.

725
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 5: That's the that's it. That is the art is go outside.

726
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 5: You need to be more kind to people and be

727
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 5: more friendly to people. But also, yeah, you need to

728
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 5: you need to live in the real world and and

729
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 5: stop just trying so desperately to cling on to like

730
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 5: this world view that's being like wildly destructive in your

731
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 5: personal life. Yeah, I mean, I think a big part

732
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 5: of this is, like you you have to understand these

733
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:03,399
Speaker 5: guys are so lame and that's like you, like, that's

734
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 5: important for like, because that's the language that like young

735
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 5: men from the age of like sixteen to twenty understand.

736
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 5: Is like when someone looks like a loser and like

737
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:16,240
Speaker 5: that's a big deal. And so when like Jordan Peterson

738
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 5: gets like embarrassed on some guy's podcast because they're like, hey, like,

739
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 5: why don't you think that, like people should should not

740
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 5: be allowed to discriminate, Like what on the basis of

741
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,359
Speaker 5: like someone is gay and they want you to make

742
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,360
Speaker 5: a cake and then he has he doesn't have a

743
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:37,479
Speaker 5: counter to it, and that that's initially, right, The entry

744
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 5: point to all of this was, like Shapiro was like

745
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 5: embarrassing people, and he was making them look like idiots,

746
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,839
Speaker 5: and so an effective counter propaganda technique is to make

747
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 5: those guys look like idiots, right, and like that's important,

748
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 5: like to to make people look like fools. You can't

749
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 5: you can't approach a lot of this stuff, like everyone's

750
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 5: idea are like the same level of valid and we

751
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,320
Speaker 5: have to listen to everyone and take everything they say seriously.

752
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 5: It's like at a certain point you got to recognize

753
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 5: this guy's a joke and you're being duped. You're being

754
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 5: duped by it, by a joke.

755
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 2: I think that's a really good point, like because I know,

756
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 2: before I started like doing my own investigation and trying

757
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 2: to figure out like what the fuck these people are

758
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 2: actually trying like saying, and why they're appealing to so

759
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 2: many young men, people would talk about them in like

760
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 2: progressive circles of mine or whatever, like with this almost

761
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 2: like taboo. Yeah, totally, thank you, Steve. As though there

762
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 2: were these like movie villains, as though it was like

763
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 2: Voldemort or something, or like don't even look at that,

764
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 2: don't even touch that, don't even say that, you know,

765
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 2: And while I understand why they were doing that, I

766
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 2: totally agree with you that like making them look like

767
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:57,720
Speaker 2: fools instead of these like big scary figures is actually

768
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 2: probably a much more effective tactic. That's my boyfriend talks

769
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 2: about a lot too, because he was sort of in

770
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:04,760
Speaker 2: a similar position to you, where he was on YouTube

771
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 2: and looking at different people, and the people that led

772
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 2: him away from that style of person were the ones

773
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 2: that were making them look like fucking losers, you know,

774
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 2: like this idiot.

775
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,359
Speaker 5: And that's I mean when you talk about like what

776
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 5: debate is, it's not like a really great mechanism for

777
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 5: like getting at the truth of something. It's a great

778
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 5: mechanism to see who's like better on their feet and

779
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 5: like better rhetorically. Sure, and at the end of it,

780
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 5: the person who wins is the person who makes the

781
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 5: other person look like a dummy. And so the way

782
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 5: to beat that is not to engage and try and

783
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:39,400
Speaker 5: like catch them in a hypocrisy or like a logical

784
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 5: fallacy or whatever. Now, it's to make them look like

785
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 5: a dummy because they are. Yeah.

786
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it also is just like why why are you

787
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 2: going about the world just trying to make people look stupid?

788
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 2: As you're like, I'm speaking to Ben and Jordan now,

789
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 2: my boys, what like how is this like a useful

790
00:40:58,400 --> 00:40:59,319
Speaker 2: way to move about the.

791
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:03,280
Speaker 1: World, rich as shit and getting a ton of attention?

792
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 2: No, for sure, for sure, I mean, that is what's

793
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 2: in it for them. But I'm like, if you're following them, like,

794
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 2: just think about that for a second. Like it is bullying,

795
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 2: it's just not the same kind that we're used to.

796
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,279
Speaker 2: It's a different kind of bullying where all you're trying

797
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 2: to do is viscerate people to make them look fucking

798
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,760
Speaker 2: stupid and take away trains people's rights.

799
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 7: I don't know.

800
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 1: Well that we talk about this a lot, where it's

801
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 1: like in our current modern world, the loudest, craziest voice

802
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 1: is the one that's often heard the most. So there's

803
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 1: probably so many people making interesting points on both sides

804
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 1: that are valid and interesting to hear because obviously we

805
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 1: need all we need all sorts of information, but the

806
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 1: only people we're going to hear from are the loudest, craziest,

807
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 1: most rage inducing people, right, which is just.

808
00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 6: Frustrating and right itself.

809
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 2: Rage Baiting is a term I did not know before,

810
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 2: but that is what they do. I mean, that is

811
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 2: fully what they do. I want to give a quick

812
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 2: quote here just because I want to harp on this

813
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 2: point because I know a lot of people we are fans, well,

814
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 2: not a lot. I know a few people who are

815
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 2: fans of JP, And I don't think that everybody who

816
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:23,360
Speaker 2: is a fan of Twelve Rules for Life is like

817
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 2: in a could I don't think that's real. I think

818
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 2: there are plenty of people who are getting just the

819
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 2: like chill, normal, like dad version of Jordan Peterson, and

820
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 2: like it's probably not harming them in any way. But

821
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 2: Cody Johnston does a really really good job. We'll probably

822
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:41,479
Speaker 2: have him on here at some point of going through

823
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 2: the list of like all of the ways in which

824
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 2: he's not only bullshit but also like kind of wants

825
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,240
Speaker 2: to be a prophet and literally wanted to start a church.

826
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 2: Like is a bit of a megalomaniac who is not

827
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 2: rooted in these like not tethered to facts. That's not

828
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 2: a thing. So y'all can go check out that video,

829
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 2: which is called a brief look at Jordan Peterson on

830
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 2: YouTube in the meantime, just quick quote here. This is

831
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,240
Speaker 2: after he was banned from Twitter for dead naming Elliott Page.

832
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 2: I believe he posted this video of him looking like

833
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 2: a fucking Batman villain, which you know is.

834
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 5: On I love it so much, so stupid.

835
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:23,920
Speaker 2: But in this video he says, I think it's this

836
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,760
Speaker 2: video and if you, Martin are if you if you

837
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:29,799
Speaker 2: remember this and tell me this is not from this video,

838
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 2: then is this the clear the Butcher's one? Do you

839
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,799
Speaker 2: remember that? Oh? Yeah, okay, here's his quote. It is

840
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 2: clearly the case. If I were to do it in

841
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 2: Jordan Peterson's voice, it would sound something like it is

842
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 2: clearly of the surgical operation okay, performed by the Butchers

843
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 2: that Butcher Elliott slash dead name page was legal. First

844
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 2: of all, you're calling surgeons for an adult procedure butchers,

845
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 2: which what? Okay?

846
00:43:58,040 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 5: So was it?

847
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 2: Quote continues, So was it criminal or not? Were the

848
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 2: operations undertaken by the fascist physicians who carried out the

849
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 2: Nazi medical experiments legal? Yes, under the laws of the time.

850
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:13,319
Speaker 2: But were they criminal? I'll leave that question up to

851
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 2: you to answer for. That's you're comparing surgeons who give

852
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:23,799
Speaker 2: adults like fucking top surgery who cook are consenting and

853
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,800
Speaker 2: it makes them happy. You're you're comparing them to fucking

854
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 2: Nazis who literally murdered trans people. What are you talking about?

855
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 5: And to be clear, this is in response to him

856
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 5: being banned Twitter.

857
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 2: From Twitter because he didn't want to delete a tweet.

858
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 2: He said he would rather die than a tweet what

859
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:43,800
Speaker 2: is wrong with you? Anyway?

860
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:46,240
Speaker 5: And then I think he did delete it on Twitter?

861
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,280
Speaker 6: What was what was the tweet he didn't want to delete?

862
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 6: That was the one? Got it bullly ship.

863
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 2: Which is clearly like for Listener's dead. Naming means you

864
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 2: use a trans person's name from before they transitioned. People

865
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 2: typically do this as a like as a very incendiary,

866
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:14,719
Speaker 2: like it can be hateful way of talking about trans

867
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 2: people because you're like I refuse to acknowledge your identity.

868
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:19,799
Speaker 2: I refuse, you know, you don't know yourself, you were

869
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 2: born of whatever. So it's like a very it's a

870
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 2: very not nice way to operate basic.

871
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 5: It can also be a total mistake and like it's

872
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 5: it's completely like it's like misrendering someone using the wrong pronouns,

873
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 5: Like I've never met a transperson who like when I

874
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 5: or someone else makes that mistake and it is genuinely mistake,

875
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 5: they're not like completely forgiving totally totally.

876
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 2: But Jordan Peterson is not doing it as a mistake.

877
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 2: He's seeing it as a willful, intentional, like act of

878
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:50,880
Speaker 2: aggression basically, But but you're absolutely right, Like it's so

879
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:52,839
Speaker 2: not a big deal if you accidentally use the wrong

880
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:56,839
Speaker 2: pronouns like nobody, it's not that serious only when you're

881
00:45:56,840 --> 00:46:02,359
Speaker 2: doing it as a means of bullying. Okay, So tell

882
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:06,760
Speaker 2: us then about how you started to where you started

883
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 2: to intern that sort of began to change your worldview.

884
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, So I had been doing mock trial for at

885
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 5: that point, like seven years or something. I started in

886
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 5: high school, did all through undergrad and so I was like, well,

887
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 5: I'll go like internet, a public defender's office. I saw

888
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:25,880
Speaker 5: a you know, ad for recruiting or whatever. I signed out,

889
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 5: I got the interview, I got the job, and on

890
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 5: my first day of the job, it's like an investigator internship.

891
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:34,360
Speaker 5: So we're being investigators for the public defenders. My investigator

892
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 5: partner and I sit down with our supervising attorney. Some

893
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 5: of the first words he says to us is that

894
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:43,120
Speaker 5: they were involved in representing people who are the interestive crimes,

895
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 5: who are accused of crimes, who are too poor to

896
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 5: a ford an attorney. The criminal justice system is racist

897
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 5: and unfair. Obviously, my initial reponts to that is like

898
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:53,279
Speaker 5: smiling at him and just like sort of nodding along,

899
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:56,359
Speaker 5: but in my head being like this is bullshit lib

900
00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,399
Speaker 5: talking points or whatever. And then I think a couple

901
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 5: days later, I visited the jail and met some clients,

902
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:06,800
Speaker 5: and this is something I would do a lot of

903
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 5: times over that summer's meet with clients, and my job

904
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 5: in seeing there was not really to gather information from them.

905
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 5: It wasn't really to inform them necessarily of anything new,

906
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,840
Speaker 5: because the criminal legal system is incredibly slow. It was

907
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 5: to effectively just reassure them that there are people who

908
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 5: care for them and who love them, who are working

909
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:31,399
Speaker 5: very hard to make sure that they're safe. And through

910
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 5: that experience of meeting people forced to wear paper jumpsuits

911
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:39,799
Speaker 5: who are in chains, human beings in chains, I sort

912
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 5: of developed an empathy and compassion that was completely lacking

913
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 5: in my former understanding of people of the world. I

914
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:53,240
Speaker 5: think meeting people who were in the most true sense,

915
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:59,800
Speaker 5: like the most oppressed and violently suppressed people in the country,

916
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,879
Speaker 5: I think that sort of changed my worldview on oh well,

917
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 5: I'm not really a victim here, like conservative white men

918
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:12,800
Speaker 5: are not victims of some liberal society. It's these people

919
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 5: that are being victimized violently by the whole nation, the

920
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:18,279
Speaker 5: whole clinal justice system.

921
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:22,319
Speaker 1: So it was kind of like this bullied robotic boy's

922
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 1: heart suddenly turned on.

923
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:30,399
Speaker 5: It's like, because like everyone sees like someone in pain

924
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:32,359
Speaker 5: and feels some sort of like compassion for them.

925
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:37,399
Speaker 2: That hopefully everyone, but like most people, Yeah, I.

926
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:41,840
Speaker 5: Want to believe that. But I think doing that work

927
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 5: and meeting these people and befriending them just I mean

928
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:50,680
Speaker 5: one of the craziest you got. So when you're in jail,

929
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 5: the only new people you meet are new inmates, new guards.

930
00:48:57,360 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 5: Neither those categories of people are even going to look

931
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:01,920
Speaker 5: you in the eye when you first meet them. And

932
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 5: so when I'm first meeting a client, I shake their hand,

933
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:07,760
Speaker 5: I make eye contact, and I introduce myself and I smile,

934
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 5: like something melts away, some like defensiveness and like curled

935
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 5: up in a ball, this like melts away. And that's

936
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:22,440
Speaker 5: just such an extraordinarily powerful human connection that you can

937
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:28,320
Speaker 5: make with someone that it's just completely unaccounted for in

938
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 5: any conservative ideology. It's like that sort of human interaction

939
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 5: is just not not a piece of that worldview. It's

940
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:38,840
Speaker 5: just not to them. These people deserve to be in

941
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 5: jail and they deserve to suffer.

942
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:45,919
Speaker 2: Right, It's like, yeah, there's so much I could say,

943
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:51,879
Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, I think as a society, we will

944
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 2: look back on the way that we have treated people

945
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 2: who've committed crimes, many of which maybe should never have

946
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:02,279
Speaker 2: been considered crime in the first place, and it will

947
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:06,319
Speaker 2: be like a shame of our development in society. Like

948
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 2: I do I really think that before you had this experience,

949
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 2: were you so sort of dismissing like anything had had

950
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 2: that even sort of had a whiff of social justice

951
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 2: as being like just total bullshit and made up and

952
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:27,240
Speaker 2: like victim mentality, and yeah, yeah, I mean.

953
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:31,319
Speaker 5: It's to me, it's it was all buzzwords. I think

954
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:33,360
Speaker 5: right now, I think to me, a lot of it

955
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 5: still is, particularly in like a corporate context, like when

956
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:39,160
Speaker 5: you go through DEI training or whatever. I think everyone

957
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:41,439
Speaker 5: can kind of acknowledge that it doesn't really do much,

958
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 5: but under understanding social justice in the context of people's lives,

959
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:54,120
Speaker 5: of real human beings really changed that perspective, change that

960
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 5: perspective for me. I mean, there's a police training facility

961
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 5: in Atlanta that's being built right now that I believe

962
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:04,800
Speaker 5: the official name for is the like social Justice Facility

963
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 5: or something like that, Like they're using that language to

964
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 5: just like a police training center. Yeah, cop City in Atlanta.

965
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 2: Oh that's cop City, Yeah yeah, yeah, Oh my gosh, yeah.

966
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 5: Look up the real name of it. It is, it's

967
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 5: something like that. But yeah, So that like adoption of

968
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:21,720
Speaker 5: like language of social justice and stuff in the corporate

969
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 5: sphere and in the authoritarian sphere and with reference to

970
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:32,759
Speaker 5: like police that seriously discounts what social justice actually is

971
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 5: and means. Where it means justice for people who are poor,

972
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:40,440
Speaker 5: people who are accused of crimes. It means justice for

973
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 5: people who are routinely over policed, pulled over for nothing,

974
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,439
Speaker 5: driving all black, stop and frisk all. It means justice

975
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:52,759
Speaker 5: for those people and their families and everyone that their

976
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 5: lives touch. Because it doesn't just affect them, there's a

977
00:51:57,160 --> 00:52:01,560
Speaker 5: compounding effect where it affects all of us. It's stressed

978
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:02,360
Speaker 5: for all of us.

979
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:06,280
Speaker 1: How long did it take you for this former persona

980
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:10,719
Speaker 1: to fully melt away? Like how how how long was

981
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:12,840
Speaker 1: this transformation and process?

982
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:17,720
Speaker 5: Oh, it's somewhere in the realm of six months something

983
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:19,839
Speaker 5: like that. Like through that internship with there's like four

984
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:25,840
Speaker 5: months or something plus two more of learning and listening

985
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:30,520
Speaker 5: and understanding. Cody Johnson's video and Paterson actually helped a lot.

986
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 5: I'm sure he'll be happy to hear that. But yeah,

987
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 5: I mean in a serious way, approaching these ideologies and

988
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:43,560
Speaker 5: these people with a critical mind was incredibly important. And

989
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:45,399
Speaker 5: that takes time and it takes work.

990
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:51,040
Speaker 6: Ah, that damn critical thinking. Yes, it's something we all stupid.

991
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 5: I think. Yeah, it's we should ebolive critically.

992
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's something we all have to come to terms with,

993
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 1: you know. And it is a hard it's a harder

994
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:09,960
Speaker 1: road than just blindly, blindly following something that sounds so

995
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:11,640
Speaker 1: easy and good.

996
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:15,840
Speaker 2: The neater it is. I feel like the more skepticism

997
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:20,400
Speaker 2: is warranted, the more clean it like of a bow

998
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:24,280
Speaker 2: that it ties the world into. The harder, the harder

999
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:28,320
Speaker 2: we should. Look, what would you say to someone listening

1000
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:35,279
Speaker 2: right now who loves loves JP, loves Shapiro and is like, oh, well,

1001
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:40,160
Speaker 2: this dude just like switched to he just became ideological.

1002
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 2: He you know, he's inn o cult. Now, Like, what

1003
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 2: would you say to them?

1004
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 5: I mean, it's almost impossible to pull someone out of that.

1005
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:50,240
Speaker 5: It is really difficult.

1006
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:53,440
Speaker 1: It is impossible. You're right, it has to be like

1007
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:54,960
Speaker 1: they have to experiential.

1008
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:59,120
Speaker 5: It's experiential. So yeah, that's I think my main understanding

1009
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 5: now is that it's really not words don't really change

1010
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:04,919
Speaker 5: people's minds. If that were the case, I mean, someone

1011
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:06,880
Speaker 5: would have said the right words a long time ago.

1012
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:12,200
Speaker 5: You have to go through something transformative, and I mean

1013
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:16,239
Speaker 5: that's what restorative justice is. And so that's I think

1014
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:18,240
Speaker 5: what really draws me to the work of public defense

1015
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 5: is that it's about it is about rehabilitation. It's about

1016
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 5: stopping this system of violent punishment and replacing it with

1017
00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:29,440
Speaker 5: something better where you can actually take accountability for the

1018
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 5: wrong you've done and in that process become something more.

1019
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:38,560
Speaker 5: And so I do think that these people who are

1020
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:44,839
Speaker 5: entrenched in a cyclical and positive reinforcing ideology, they can

1021
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:51,239
Speaker 5: be freed of that, but only through a meaningful experience

1022
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:55,960
Speaker 5: in their life. And I'm sorry to say it, but

1023
00:54:56,239 --> 00:55:00,960
Speaker 5: at a certain point, bullying does work. I hate to

1024
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:02,920
Speaker 5: say that, I really do, because that sucks. But like,

1025
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:09,600
Speaker 5: if these people feel dumb for believing these things, then

1026
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 5: at a certain point that can be a catalyst for change.

1027
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:16,360
Speaker 5: It really can be. And so I'm not this is

1028
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:18,279
Speaker 5: not a call to action. I'm not saying do your

1029
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:21,960
Speaker 5: part and go like be mean to the like conservative

1030
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:26,400
Speaker 5: like Jason Kidd and you're undergrad class, but like just

1031
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:30,920
Speaker 5: you know, be kind to people in a firm way.

1032
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:34,520
Speaker 5: Is I guess the best advice I can give on

1033
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:34,960
Speaker 5: that front.

1034
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:37,040
Speaker 6: What podcasts do you listen to?

1035
00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:37,359
Speaker 1: Now?

1036
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:44,960
Speaker 5: I listened to Choppo for a while. I can just

1037
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:48,719
Speaker 5: look at my reasons that's a better idea. Oh of course,

1038
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 5: I listened to some more news trust Me. I listened

1039
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:52,399
Speaker 5: to trust Me with.

1040
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 6: Brilliant, Yeah, your favorite. I love them.

1041
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:03,440
Speaker 5: Five fours, Brilliant, True and on is also great. I

1042
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:07,120
Speaker 5: think you guys would love them as well. If Books

1043
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:12,000
Speaker 5: Could Kill is solid. It's on like those airport novel

1044
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:17,520
Speaker 5: reads that are like super productionistic and like atomic habits.

1045
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:19,600
Speaker 5: And I think they did twelve Rules for Life one

1046
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:23,719
Speaker 5: two blowback new season coming out in a couple of

1047
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:27,960
Speaker 5: weeks on nine to eleven and such nice.

1048
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:31,480
Speaker 1: One of my girlfriends, who's actually kind of liberal, got

1049
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:37,520
Speaker 1: an interview with The Daily Wire and went to take

1050
00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:41,120
Speaker 1: it and said that Ben Shapiro is like one of

1051
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:45,640
Speaker 1: the most highly guarded and armed people she's ever met

1052
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 1: in her.

1053
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:50,279
Speaker 7: Own Wow yeah, wow, yeah. It took her hours to

1054
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:54,640
Speaker 7: get their security. It's like a whole other world over there,

1055
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:56,200
Speaker 7: so that blew my mind.

1056
00:56:56,480 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 2: Good for him, glad to get in.

1057
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:00,440
Speaker 4: All right.

1058
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:03,359
Speaker 1: Oh see, for one more thing, do you ever catch

1059
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:05,799
Speaker 1: yourself thinking in your old how about you all way

1060
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:06,480
Speaker 1: of thinking?

1061
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:09,480
Speaker 5: Every once in a while, an issue or something will

1062
00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:13,279
Speaker 5: come up where I'm like instinctually sort of back in

1063
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:16,280
Speaker 5: that mindset. I know for a while. It took me

1064
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:19,240
Speaker 5: a long time to sort of figure out the abortion issue,

1065
00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:22,600
Speaker 5: which like we can full avoid if if we need to,

1066
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:26,160
Speaker 5: but like understanding like what that means to women and

1067
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:29,480
Speaker 5: how to compassionately think about that stuff without just like

1068
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 5: reverting to like a really regressionistic way of seeing people

1069
00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:36,920
Speaker 5: and what their struggles are. That was one that took

1070
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:37,280
Speaker 5: a while.

1071
00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:42,360
Speaker 2: I really admire your deep self awareness, Like it seems

1072
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:45,320
Speaker 2: like you have this really strong ability to interrogate your

1073
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:49,320
Speaker 2: own thoughts and like try to keep them aligned with

1074
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:51,840
Speaker 2: your values. And I think that's wonderful.

1075
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:54,400
Speaker 5: Well, you can call that a holdover from being just

1076
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:59,640
Speaker 5: incredibly insecure and self conscious the benefit It.

1077
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:04,240
Speaker 2: Is interesting saying, because I don't think social justice culture

1078
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:09,000
Speaker 2: is always right. I don't think it never overreaches. It

1079
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:12,480
Speaker 2: does sometimes overreach, and there's sometimes are over corrections that happen.

1080
00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:15,000
Speaker 2: But I do wonder how much people turn to these

1081
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:19,240
Speaker 2: figures because they're the only people talking about that, whereas

1082
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:21,480
Speaker 2: we don't have a lot of like really good progressive

1083
00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:26,240
Speaker 2: voices who do have those empathetic values who are also saying, hey,

1084
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:29,400
Speaker 2: you guys, like we probably shouldn't cancel people for their mistakes.

1085
00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:31,880
Speaker 2: That's sort of the opposite of the type of justice

1086
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:32,760
Speaker 2: that we're talking about.

1087
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:37,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, there are pieces and like factions within more liberal

1088
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:41,600
Speaker 5: minded people who believe ridiculous things, so does everybody. And

1089
00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:44,200
Speaker 5: the thing is that when these conservative figures bottle those

1090
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:47,439
Speaker 5: and then expand them into like this is what being

1091
00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 5: left wing means, when in reality you can just sort

1092
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:52,880
Speaker 5: of understand those people as like, oh, they're just being

1093
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:55,240
Speaker 5: annoying and that's fine. You're allowed to be a little

1094
00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:58,720
Speaker 5: bit annoying. Once some fourteen year old on Twitter is like, yeah,

1095
00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:02,640
Speaker 5: parents are like fascist, it's like you can just be like, Okay,

1096
00:59:02,680 --> 00:59:04,720
Speaker 5: that guy's annoying and like not think about it too hard.

1097
00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:07,480
Speaker 5: Instead of being like this is the natural conclusion to

1098
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:10,960
Speaker 5: like left wing ideology, It's like, dude, he's being annoying

1099
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:14,960
Speaker 5: and that's fine. You know what, I mean, and that

1100
00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:17,320
Speaker 5: is the way to approach that from like a progressive

1101
00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:19,800
Speaker 5: ideal is when you see something that's like weird and annoying,

1102
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:22,560
Speaker 5: you're just like, okay, that don't take it too seriously, right.

1103
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love it too. Awesome, Well, this has been awesome.

1104
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:32,760
Speaker 2: I feel like if you had to sort of I mean,

1105
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:37,080
Speaker 2: obviously we're not trying to oversimplify things, but if you

1106
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:41,520
Speaker 2: had to, what would that Why do you think so

1107
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:47,680
Speaker 2: many young men are drawn to evisceration culture and if

1108
00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:50,400
Speaker 2: there's anything that we could do to make that stop happening,

1109
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:51,240
Speaker 2: what do you think that would be?

1110
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:54,160
Speaker 5: Come from? Insecurity? Most of it, if not all of

1111
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:57,640
Speaker 5: it comes from a feeling of instability and insecurity and

1112
00:59:57,640 --> 01:00:00,800
Speaker 5: your own identity and in your own life. The way

1113
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:07,000
Speaker 5: to alleviate that is group activities, community building, having an

1114
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:14,120
Speaker 5: outlet that's not watching conservative YouTube videos. You know, I

1115
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:15,960
Speaker 5: hate to say like going to the gym and stuff,

1116
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:18,680
Speaker 5: but I mean, because there's a toxic culture around that,

1117
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:19,800
Speaker 5: but it is important to.

1118
01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:21,800
Speaker 1: Like getting out of your mind and getting into your

1119
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:25,080
Speaker 1: body and getting into community and like building confidence.

1120
01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:31,400
Speaker 5: Just a mental health exercise is it's a mental health practice,

1121
01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:33,920
Speaker 5: and that's probably not all it is, but it is

1122
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:34,720
Speaker 5: important that.

1123
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:38,800
Speaker 2: And that's why my mental health is so bad the same.

1124
01:00:39,280 --> 01:00:41,480
Speaker 1: I mean, it makes sense that if if you know,

1125
01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:44,040
Speaker 1: we're used to going to war and we're you know,

1126
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:48,800
Speaker 1: ancestrally like prime to fight and whatever, and now we're

1127
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:51,040
Speaker 1: all just kind of on our computers, it makes sense

1128
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:56,240
Speaker 1: that seeing people get shamed and owned and eviscerated is

1129
01:00:56,400 --> 01:01:01,680
Speaker 1: the next best thing for that primal part of our selves.

1130
01:01:02,440 --> 01:01:04,840
Speaker 2: But there are other ways to be mascular, are.

1131
01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:08,840
Speaker 1: Other ways to be masculine or eminin or whatever you

1132
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:13,880
Speaker 1: need to, like, you know, not go crazy and not

1133
01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:15,280
Speaker 1: oversimplify the world.

1134
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:20,800
Speaker 2: Well, do you have any final thoughts, comments, recommendations.

1135
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:25,440
Speaker 5: I mean, stop copsitting in Atlanta. They always need bodies.

1136
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:28,680
Speaker 5: They're canvassing right now, trying to get signatures on a

1137
01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:32,720
Speaker 5: referendum to cancel the lease for bulldozing a bunch of

1138
01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:35,640
Speaker 5: historic Atlanta forest and putting up a model city for

1139
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:38,880
Speaker 5: cops to practice urban warfare in. It's a whole thing.

1140
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:41,480
Speaker 5: There's lots of good resources on it. You should go

1141
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:45,960
Speaker 5: check it out. The other thing is lots of incarcerated

1142
01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:49,160
Speaker 5: people need human beings to interact with and speak with.

1143
01:01:50,600 --> 01:01:53,520
Speaker 5: I understand that's a difficult sort of bridge to get over.

1144
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:58,439
Speaker 5: But there's pent pals out there that just need sort

1145
01:01:58,440 --> 01:02:02,320
Speaker 5: of a human interaction. And I promise you they're kind people.

1146
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:05,600
Speaker 5: They're people, that's the important part. But they're also kind

1147
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:08,240
Speaker 5: to people that there are tons of reachers out there

1148
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:10,640
Speaker 5: to get in touch with people who are currently incarcerated

1149
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:12,640
Speaker 5: and interact with them in a human way.

1150
01:02:12,960 --> 01:02:13,520
Speaker 6: Beautiful.

1151
01:02:13,720 --> 01:02:15,440
Speaker 2: Thank you for the reminder. I've been wanting to do

1152
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:18,600
Speaker 2: that for a long time and I never remember.

1153
01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:21,360
Speaker 5: Everyone I'm going to. It's it's a pain, it's really

1154
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:21,680
Speaker 5: a pain.

1155
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:23,000
Speaker 2: But where do we go?

1156
01:02:23,760 --> 01:02:25,080
Speaker 6: Where do we go to do that?

1157
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:27,680
Speaker 5: Good? Quite? There are tons of res out there. It's

1158
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:28,880
Speaker 5: a Google search away, I promise.

1159
01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:32,960
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, yeah, there's like California, whatever. There are so

1160
01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:35,280
Speaker 2: many registries that have people state.

1161
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:37,240
Speaker 5: There's one in your state.

1162
01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:41,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, awesome. Thank you so much, Martin. You are

1163
01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:43,520
Speaker 2: awesome And I'm really really glad that you joined us today.

1164
01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:45,080
Speaker 5: Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

1165
01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:50,000
Speaker 2: Oh right, Megan, we are here at the point in

1166
01:02:50,040 --> 01:02:53,120
Speaker 2: the episode where I ask you whether you would join

1167
01:02:53,840 --> 01:02:57,280
Speaker 2: the Cult of Jordan Peterson and Benchapiro and all those guys.

1168
01:02:57,560 --> 01:03:01,720
Speaker 1: Oh, you know, I mean it. So it's so complicated,

1169
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:05,000
Speaker 1: isn't it, because well it shouldn't be. But sometimes you're right,

1170
01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:08,360
Speaker 1: Like sometimes they just make a really good point where

1171
01:03:09,640 --> 01:03:13,280
Speaker 1: other points have been missing. And sometimes I'll just be

1172
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:15,480
Speaker 1: scrolling and I'll see something. I'll be like, well, that

1173
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:19,280
Speaker 1: wasn't too stupid, that was kind of smart. And I

1174
01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:23,720
Speaker 1: can get a little a little sucked in. So what

1175
01:03:23,880 --> 01:03:28,160
Speaker 1: I join? No, do I consider myself a fan.

1176
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:29,160
Speaker 6: Absolutely not.

1177
01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:33,640
Speaker 1: Do they sometimes hit the nail on the head as

1178
01:03:33,680 --> 01:03:38,040
Speaker 1: far as information I've been seeking, of course, and they

1179
01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:43,040
Speaker 1: do that on purpose, So no, I wouldn't join. But yes,

1180
01:03:43,080 --> 01:03:47,480
Speaker 1: I completely understand why someone as smart as Martin got

1181
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:49,880
Speaker 1: as sucked through the rabbit hole as he did.

1182
01:03:50,240 --> 01:03:53,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, like listen, I like half of what

1183
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:58,040
Speaker 2: Jordan Peterson says is word salad and like evasion, but

1184
01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:02,360
Speaker 2: there are points that he made, like about being responsible

1185
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:07,920
Speaker 2: and you know, and being like ironically precise in your language,

1186
01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:12,040
Speaker 2: hilariously coming from him. But yeah, I mean I understand,

1187
01:04:12,120 --> 01:04:14,560
Speaker 2: And you know I have I have like a I

1188
01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:17,720
Speaker 2: have a real complex about like impressing dudes and like

1189
01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:21,919
Speaker 2: seeming smart dudes left over from just like childhood, don't

1190
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:24,320
Speaker 2: worry guys. I'm fine, It's not a big deal anymore.

1191
01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:27,480
Speaker 2: But like that is something that I like, definitely have

1192
01:04:27,760 --> 01:04:30,880
Speaker 2: struggled with in my life, probably having three brothers growing

1193
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:33,440
Speaker 2: up and then hanging out with all boys, all boys

1194
01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:36,920
Speaker 2: for a long time. So I could totally see me

1195
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:39,840
Speaker 2: being like, oh, I'm I'm cool like the dudes. I

1196
01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:43,960
Speaker 2: like these girls. Don't like them because girls are you know,

1197
01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:46,840
Speaker 2: chaotic or whatever. Like I could see a version of

1198
01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:50,840
Speaker 2: myself where I do that. But like, I think they're

1199
01:04:51,080 --> 01:04:54,720
Speaker 2: fucking fearmongering bullshites. That's what I think.

1200
01:04:54,840 --> 01:04:57,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I totally hear you on that. It's it's a complicated,

1201
01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:01,360
Speaker 1: complicated issue, and we are in a time where the loudest,

1202
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:05,400
Speaker 1: weirdest voices get heard so yet to be seen where

1203
01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:09,080
Speaker 1: that eventually leads us that's right.

1204
01:05:09,320 --> 01:05:11,640
Speaker 2: All right, Well we did well, we did it.

1205
01:05:11,720 --> 01:05:13,840
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to another week of

1206
01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:16,680
Speaker 1: Trust Me. We can't wait to see you again next week,

1207
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:20,560
Speaker 1: and as always, remember to follow your gut, watch out

1208
01:05:20,560 --> 01:05:22,080
Speaker 1: for red flags, and then.

1209
01:05:22,080 --> 01:05:26,480
Speaker 8: Ever ever ever t trust me, Ye Bye.

1210
01:05:29,520 --> 01:05:32,240
Speaker 2: Trust Me. As produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and

1211
01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:33,160
Speaker 2: Steve Delemator.

1212
01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:35,160
Speaker 1: The special thanks to Stacy Para.

1213
01:05:35,080 --> 01:05:37,520
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1214
01:05:37,720 --> 01:05:40,600
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1215
01:05:40,800 --> 01:05:44,160
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

1216
01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:45,880
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

1217
01:05:46,040 --> 01:05:49,360
Speaker 2: I'm Oola Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1218
01:05:49,120 --> 01:05:52,680
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1219
01:05:52,880 --> 01:05:53,920
Speaker 1: Hits on Twitter.

1220
01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:56,400
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.

1221
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:06,160
Speaker 5: Mm hm hm hm hm m hm hm hm.

1222
01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:11,320
Speaker 9: Mother, I don't know what to do in my supper.

1223
01:06:12,920 --> 01:06:17,880
Speaker 9: The world sheds green of color color? Can you please

1224
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:20,120
Speaker 9: on me? Help me? Mother?

1225
01:06:22,560 --> 01:06:25,280
Speaker 6: And mother? Please?

1226
01:06:25,320 --> 01:06:29,600
Speaker 9: Can mis give the girls and daughther? I used to

1227
01:06:29,760 --> 01:06:35,200
Speaker 9: know it to suffer. Now I can't a winter from summer?

1228
01:06:39,720 --> 01:06:40,680
Speaker 9: Who is wise?

1229
01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:47,320
Speaker 2: Mine is broken sturdy side of my emotional.

1230
01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:48,960
Speaker 3: So trust yourselves.

1231
01:06:49,360 --> 01:06:50,640
Speaker 6: But how do you know when?

1232
01:06:51,560 --> 01:06:52,720
Speaker 1: How do you know when.

1233
01:06:56,520 --> 01:06:57,080
Speaker 6: It's really?

1234
01:06:57,280 --> 01:06:58,320
Speaker 1: Are this way?

1235
01:06:58,960 --> 01:06:59,360
Speaker 5: First?

1236
01:07:00,560 --> 01:07:04,400
Speaker 8: Only just a mess? Why is the roe who looks

1237
01:07:04,440 --> 01:07:12,840
Speaker 8: pretty but the thorns got me? What me couserah go

1238
01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:14,600
Speaker 8: in the cities of the time.

1239
01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:21,720
Speaker 10: Lilight could just disciplin by food. Weed's so heavy, I letty.

1240
01:07:21,560 --> 01:07:26,400
Speaker 2: It crush me? What if fight Trust Me?

1241
01:07:33,280 --> 01:07:42,440
Speaker 9: Nights one Final one Fight Truss.

1242
01:07:44,440 --> 01:07:46,440
Speaker 10: My only to make it better?

1243
01:07:48,360 --> 01:07:49,480
Speaker 1: What I think?

1244
01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:53,960
Speaker 5: That's bros. When did I get fans.

1245
01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:54,880
Speaker 9: Of pressure.

1246
01:07:57,960 --> 01:07:58,200
Speaker 5: Time?

1247
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:01,160
Speaker 1: I think?

1248
01:08:04,240 --> 01:08:05,840
Speaker 2: Why isn't the trust me the.

1249
01:08:10,600 --> 01:08:19,639
Speaker 10: Excuse me? It was a song into the abyss one

1250
01:08:19,840 --> 01:08:25,479
Speaker 10: if us me only just a mess, w if whos

1251
01:08:25,520 --> 01:08:26,120
Speaker 10: it's pretty?

1252
01:08:26,240 --> 01:08:27,800
Speaker 6: But the thorns got me?

1253
01:08:31,160 --> 01:08:38,040
Speaker 8: What because Sarah go missayes go on, no could just

1254
01:08:38,200 --> 01:08:41,960
Speaker 8: disciponate if food ways so heavy?

1255
01:08:42,360 --> 01:08:43,720
Speaker 9: La gros me.

1256
01:08:46,080 --> 01:08:47,600
Speaker 2: One fris truss me.

1257
01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:55,240
Speaker 3: It was actus?

1258
01:09:01,000 --> 01:09:03,560
Speaker 1: Why fack what fight trust me?

1259
01:09:08,000 --> 01:09:15,679
Speaker 4: I'm okay, I'm okay, it's okay if I don't quite

1260
01:09:15,880 --> 01:09:26,840
Speaker 4: badly idio, okay, okay, we going skin.

1261
01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:35,440
Speaker 9: Mining to trust yourself again?

1262
01:09:38,280 --> 01:09:40,120
Speaker 5: In Judges so.

1263
01:09:44,120 --> 01:09:49,519
Speaker 10: Fall, it's only as I guess, that's test where I'm

1264
01:09:49,640 --> 01:09:51,160
Speaker 10: gonna leave plastic.

1265
01:09:53,080 --> 01:09:53,880
Speaker 1: And it's on the.

1266
01:09:53,920 --> 01:09:55,640
Speaker 6: Storys got maid.

1267
01:09:58,560 --> 01:10:02,800
Speaker 2: And that to It's terrible, says that.

1268
01:10:03,000 --> 01:10:10,600
Speaker 8: Some wan fatus disobeyed to see spattered the tart on.

1269
01:10:13,360 --> 01:10:14,960
Speaker 9: A sea

1270
01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:22,480
Speaker 10: Of facts