WEBVTT - Mark Morton

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Leftstetch Podcast. My

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<v Speaker 1>guest today is Mark Warton, Lamb of God. He's got

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<v Speaker 1>a new memoir, Desolation. Mark. Why the memoir? Why? Now?

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<v Speaker 2>I wish I had a snappy answer for that. It

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<v Speaker 2>was really kind of, honestly, a dare from a friend

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<v Speaker 2>of mine who wound up being my co writer. He

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<v Speaker 2>didn't really write on the book. He more cleaned up

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<v Speaker 2>my stuff. But I guess that's the closest thing we

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<v Speaker 2>could name it as a co writer. But we were

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<v Speaker 2>friends before this, and we talked a fair amount, and

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<v Speaker 2>we were at the beach. He has a place down

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<v Speaker 2>in the Outer Banks, and my family and I go

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<v Speaker 2>down there quite a bit to that area, and we

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<v Speaker 2>were hanging out drinking coffee, and I was telling the

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<v Speaker 2>story and he was like, man, I think you really

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<v Speaker 2>got a book in you, and we just kind of

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<v Speaker 2>with a laugh, agreed to write a sample chapter. And

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<v Speaker 2>that sample chapter got us a book deal. So then

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<v Speaker 2>I reached this crossroads of like, okay, well you know

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<v Speaker 2>that was a fun chapter, right, and now I have

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<v Speaker 2>this deal offer, Am I really going to write a book? And?

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<v Speaker 2>I guess I don't guess the answer was, in fact, yes, Bob.

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<v Speaker 1>So how long ago did you write that sample chapter?

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<v Speaker 2>That's a good question. I don't know it was several

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<v Speaker 2>years ago, it because it took me about two years

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<v Speaker 2>to write the book, and I would say that was

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<v Speaker 2>probably six months before.

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<v Speaker 1>So you say that you literally wrote the book, the

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<v Speaker 1>guy essentially just edit it. You sat down there at

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<v Speaker 1>either of you wrote it.

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<v Speaker 2>I wrote every single word.

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<v Speaker 1>A lot of people find it difficult to write. How

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<v Speaker 1>did you find it?

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<v Speaker 2>I found it. I found it all the things, So

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<v Speaker 2>it was it was difficult. Some of the stuff, I

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<v Speaker 2>will say was a little bit difficult to write about.

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<v Speaker 2>Some of the book was a joy to write about.

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<v Speaker 2>And I found myself chuckling out loud as I was

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<v Speaker 2>writing stuff because it just brings back, you know, it's

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<v Speaker 2>a memoir, so it's things that have happened in my life,

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<v Speaker 2>and it brings back this flood of a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>really really fond memories, a lot of funny stuff. There's

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of you know, there's tragedy, and there's a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of dark stuff in my story as well, and

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<v Speaker 2>I covered a lot of that pretty in depth. So

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<v Speaker 2>some of that was challenging to write. About There were

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<v Speaker 2>a few chapters, a couple chapters, but specifically when I

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<v Speaker 2>was writing them, I was in a bad mood for

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<v Speaker 2>those few days. One kind of funny and unexpected, although

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<v Speaker 2>only unexpected because I didn't think about it. Challenge is

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<v Speaker 2>that I don't type very well at all. I just simply,

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<v Speaker 2>on a very practical level, can't type. So that made

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<v Speaker 2>for a real challenging write because you have to type.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm the one writing everything, so it really would. My

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<v Speaker 2>wife would make fun of me. I would go up

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<v Speaker 2>to my studio and say, I'm just gonna write five

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<v Speaker 2>hundred thousand words to day, and I'd be up there

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<v Speaker 2>for a couple of hours. Or what is what are

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<v Speaker 2>you doing up there? Like hint, pecking away at this book?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, by the time you were done, were you a

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<v Speaker 1>better typist?

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<v Speaker 2>I think I must have been. Yeah, I must have been.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think I'm a very I'm still a very

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<v Speaker 2>conventional typist, but I can. I can bang out some words, okay.

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<v Speaker 1>In the sample, a lot of the book has to

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<v Speaker 1>do with drug addiction. Was the sample heavy on the

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<v Speaker 1>drug addiction and Hashet, which is a very major publisher,

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to buy it because of that story or was

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<v Speaker 1>it more that they were good buy it because you

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<v Speaker 1>were and liamb of.

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<v Speaker 2>God, Well, I never really asked them, Bob. I would

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<v Speaker 2>imagine from what I've learned in this process is that

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<v Speaker 2>in the modern day book world, much like I think

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<v Speaker 2>in the modern day music world, I think whoever is

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<v Speaker 2>making these decisions is quantifying someone's social media presence, quantifying

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<v Speaker 2>whatever their marketing value is in their given field. And

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sure they have algorithms or formulas that help them

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<v Speaker 2>predict how successful something is going to be commercially. I

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<v Speaker 2>can't imagine that they didn't plug in those types of

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<v Speaker 2>things for me, with music and social media and that

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<v Speaker 2>kind of thing, and come up with the fact that

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<v Speaker 2>they could probably market some books. No one told me that.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm just guessing that, And then hopefully they thought that

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<v Speaker 2>it was a good sample chapter and that it was intriguing.

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<v Speaker 2>The gentleman that that signed me to the book deal

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<v Speaker 2>was certainly very entertained by the chapter that the chapter

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<v Speaker 2>that I turned in as a sample was. If you've

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<v Speaker 2>read the book, it's a chapter about me being on

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<v Speaker 2>tour in Europe and being in this beautiful alpine setting

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<v Speaker 2>on a day off and instead of doing the things

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<v Speaker 2>that any noise normal person would do in that setting

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<v Speaker 2>and taking in the sites and enjoying the environment, I

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<v Speaker 2>was focused on some real hair brained idea on how

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<v Speaker 2>I was going to create a high for myself that day.

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<v Speaker 2>And it really it's parts of that story are kind

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<v Speaker 2>of funny, and then parts of it are really very

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<v Speaker 2>sad because it represents the way that addiction just completely

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<v Speaker 2>takes over your mindset and very much possesses you to

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<v Speaker 2>the point where you can't really see reality as it

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<v Speaker 2>is because you're just chasing this solution to a problem

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<v Speaker 2>that you keep creating for yourself.

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<v Speaker 1>So, now that the book has been out, what has

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<v Speaker 1>been your.

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<v Speaker 2>Experience, Well, my experience with the book and the feedback

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<v Speaker 2>I've gotten has been a lot of people have come

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<v Speaker 2>to me and say that the book really touched them.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think, Bob, this story is not just about

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<v Speaker 2>alcoholism and drug addiction, and that's certainly a component of it.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a several stories going on in the book. And

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't have an intention for this when I sat

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<v Speaker 2>down to write it. I honestly didn't know exactly what

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<v Speaker 2>I was going to write. And I'm like that with

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<v Speaker 2>music as well. A lot of times I'll sit down

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<v Speaker 2>and I won't necessarily have a plan. I'll just kind

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<v Speaker 2>of start poking around and see if something starts taking

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<v Speaker 2>shape and coming into form. And I wrote each of

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<v Speaker 2>these chapters very much the same way, although of course

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<v Speaker 2>I had the guide of time of sequence of timelines

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<v Speaker 2>to help guide me. So, you know, a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>people talk to me about the alcoholism and the addiction

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<v Speaker 2>and the recovery component of the book, and that is

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<v Speaker 2>certainly one of the storylines in there. There's also the

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<v Speaker 2>storyline about navigating and grieving the loss of my infant daughter,

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<v Speaker 2>which was a part of the book that was real

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<v Speaker 2>difficult to get through for me to write. Although it's

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<v Speaker 2>my story and I live with them, I'm very familiar

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<v Speaker 2>with it, writing about it in detail was challenging, and

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<v Speaker 2>I think I was pretty authentic and honest through that.

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<v Speaker 2>And there are people that share that unfortunate experience that

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<v Speaker 2>have come to me and talk to me about what

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<v Speaker 2>that meant to them to read my telling of my

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<v Speaker 2>experience with that. And then there's the story of the

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<v Speaker 2>really very very unlikely success of a basement metal band

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<v Speaker 2>that should have, you know, on paper, probably never even

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<v Speaker 2>made it out of our hometown, but was able to

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of times, in spite of ourselves, create a

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<v Speaker 2>really exciting and really thriving career in heavy metal music worldwide.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's a real unlikely story and one that we

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<v Speaker 2>still collectively get a kick out of ourselves. And I

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<v Speaker 2>think it's a fun read that part of it.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, one thing that's me in the book. Because you're

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<v Speaker 1>grown up in Williamsburg and you're gonna go to college,

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<v Speaker 1>you're a reluctant to go to college. You go to Richmond,

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<v Speaker 1>you feel sort of out of place, you make a friend, whatever,

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<v Speaker 1>But not only you finish college, you end up going

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<v Speaker 1>to graduate school in Chicago. Okay, you've been around. I've

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<v Speaker 1>been around. That is not the common route of a

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<v Speaker 1>heavy metal musician, of any successful musician.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, there's a few of us out there that were

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<v Speaker 2>sort of simultaneously pursuing education. I think when when you're

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<v Speaker 2>playing music, particularly any kind of underground punk rock or

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<v Speaker 2>heavy metal music, but probably just music in general. I

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<v Speaker 2>think when you're playing music, you're always met with this

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<v Speaker 2>voice or voices that are telling you you'll never make it.

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<v Speaker 2>It's one in a million. Think of how many people

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<v Speaker 2>would love to make it in music, be a rock

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<v Speaker 2>star however you want to, you know, can't characterize that

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<v Speaker 2>it's like hitting the lottery. And the truth is a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of that is true, you know, So the whole

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<v Speaker 2>time you're pursuing music, I think for me, and I

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<v Speaker 2>think for a lot of people, because I've heard this

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<v Speaker 2>from a lot of people too, that psychologically you're you're

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<v Speaker 2>constantly battling this notion that you were trying to achieve

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<v Speaker 2>the possible, or you're wasting your time, or you're deprioritizing

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<v Speaker 2>things that you should be prioritizing. You're supposed to go

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<v Speaker 2>get a career for yourself, so you're supposed to, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>find some stable job and do the thing that we're

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<v Speaker 2>all told and socialized that we need to do. And

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<v Speaker 2>that was true for me, So I think I was

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<v Speaker 2>always kind of spinning plates, pursuing this music thing that

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<v Speaker 2>I'd love so dearly and as it turns out, really

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<v Speaker 2>couldn't have ever not done, but also trying to cobble

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<v Speaker 2>together some version of a backup plan for myself so

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<v Speaker 2>that I could feel like I wasn't going to wind up,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, sleeping in a car somewhere for very long anyway,

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<v Speaker 2>and so there's a story in there as well, even

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<v Speaker 2>during college where I or after college after I think

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<v Speaker 2>it was after Yeah, after I dropped out of grad school,

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<v Speaker 2>I came back home and I'm doing music, and I'm

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<v Speaker 2>applying to the fire department because I'm just of this

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<v Speaker 2>notion that I'm getting too old to be running around

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<v Speaker 2>making all this noise with this band I'm doing, and

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<v Speaker 2>I need to get a real job, and so I'm

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<v Speaker 2>going to cut all my hair off and go get

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<v Speaker 2>a job as a firefighter. And you know, I got

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<v Speaker 2>sort of on the way to doing that and had

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<v Speaker 2>this self realization of just I'm just never going to

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<v Speaker 2>be a normal nine to five or kind of guy.

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<v Speaker 2>And if I am, it's I'm not. I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>make sure it's not. Because I didn't pursue this all

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<v Speaker 2>the way to the even though I didn't know what

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<v Speaker 2>pursuing this meant, because for us, for Lamb of God,

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<v Speaker 2>every step of the way seems so unlikely and so

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<v Speaker 2>unrealistic because our music was just so extreme that it

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<v Speaker 2>never seemed like the kind of thing to any of

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<v Speaker 2>us that would land us on tour buses and arenas

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<v Speaker 2>and opening from Metallica and doing all these amazing things

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<v Speaker 2>that we've gotten to and continue to get to do.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, you're growing to graduate school when you're looking to

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<v Speaker 1>sell out. Why a firefighter as opposed to any other career.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I my brother was a firefighter. He was a

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<v Speaker 2>career firefighter, and so I was very familiar with fire service,

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<v Speaker 2>and I thought it was a very very and I

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<v Speaker 2>still think it is a very, very worthwhile noble cause.

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<v Speaker 2>And everyone likes who doesn't like a firefighter?

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<v Speaker 1>Man?

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<v Speaker 2>They're heroes, right, They run into burning buildings when everybody

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<v Speaker 2>else is running out of them. That's the kind of

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<v Speaker 2>guy a lot of us want to be. And I

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to be that kind of guy too. With grad school.

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<v Speaker 2>I was really good at school, particularly at college and

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<v Speaker 2>grad school. I was very good at being a student,

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<v Speaker 2>and I was pursuing political science and international relations. And

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<v Speaker 2>it's I think that for me, And this is not

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<v Speaker 2>a knock to people that do that. I'm sure that

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<v Speaker 2>there are people that do go on to do very

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<v Speaker 2>worthwhile things with that. A lot of lawyers start there

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<v Speaker 2>and that kind of thing, and not that teaching isn't worthwhile.

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<v Speaker 2>It's very worthwhile. But it's also one of those tracks

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<v Speaker 2>where it's sort of it creates, it's it's it's it's

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<v Speaker 2>self fulfilling. Right. You go through college, you go through

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<v Speaker 2>grad school, and then you just stay in academia and

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<v Speaker 2>you just become a professor and become a teacher. And

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<v Speaker 2>that was sort of my thinking as well, I'm pretty

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<v Speaker 2>good at school, so if I just keep doing school, well,

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<v Speaker 2>eventually I'll just become school, you know. And so that

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<v Speaker 2>was one of my backup plans. Wasn't a bad.

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<v Speaker 1>One, Okay, not only with your degree in your post

0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:07.720
<v Speaker 1>graduate work and the book, but talking to you right now,

0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:14.000
<v Speaker 1>you're articulate, you're intelligent, you're educated. Generally speaking, it's a

0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:17.640
<v Speaker 1>dumb business. So what's it like with a smart guy

0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:20.200
<v Speaker 1>like you going on the road with all these people.

0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:24.079
<v Speaker 2>I don't think it's a dumb business at all, Bob.

0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:28.120
<v Speaker 2>I think some of the practices within the business and

0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:32.520
<v Speaker 2>some of the business model is dumb. But I find

0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:39.600
<v Speaker 2>that and maybe I'm lucky. Well I'm certainly lucky. But

0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:42.880
<v Speaker 2>I think one of the reasons that Lamb of God

0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:45.480
<v Speaker 2>has had the success we've had is because we are

0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:49.320
<v Speaker 2>all very deliberate and very intentional, even at times when

0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:51.880
<v Speaker 2>we were you know, all the cliches of the drinking

0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:54.760
<v Speaker 2>and the drugging. And I won't speak for anyone but myself,

0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:57.640
<v Speaker 2>but I certainly, as you would know from the book,

0:13:57.720 --> 0:13:59.800
<v Speaker 2>have gone off the rails on all that stuff. But

0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:02.640
<v Speaker 2>even in the cloud of that stuff, there were always

0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:05.280
<v Speaker 2>when when there was decisions being made, when there were

0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:11.040
<v Speaker 2>business choices and pursuits that we were focused on. We

0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:16.920
<v Speaker 2>really have always been very thoughtful and intentful and in

0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:25.040
<v Speaker 2>large part engaged and intentional about how we are conducting

0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:27.440
<v Speaker 2>this group that we have. And I don't think that's

0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:31.120
<v Speaker 2>unique to us. I think at a certain level, you

0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:35.960
<v Speaker 2>got to believe that, you know, somebody behind making these

0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:37.840
<v Speaker 2>things successful is doing some thinking.

0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:42.200
<v Speaker 1>Well, usually the business guy is the drummer, although when

0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:45.400
<v Speaker 1>you're being you replace the drummer. Who's the business guy?

0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:46.720
<v Speaker 1>In Lamb of God?

0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:51.640
<v Speaker 2>Is the business guy? Usually the drummer that's funny, Almost

0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:55.040
<v Speaker 2>always really yeah, Well, you know, they say, you know,

0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:57.280
<v Speaker 2>what do you call that? A guy that hangs out

0:14:57.280 --> 0:15:04.720
<v Speaker 2>with three or four other musicians drummer? Who's the business guy?

0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:07.720
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I'm one of them. I think we

0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:14.400
<v Speaker 2>do everything very collectively, but sometimes there's a point man,

0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:17.880
<v Speaker 2>and often on certain things I tend to be that

0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:23.720
<v Speaker 2>point man, not always.

0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:31.720
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you talk about growing up in Williamsburg. Many people

0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:34.360
<v Speaker 1>on the East Coast, including myself, have been there. I've

0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:36.320
<v Speaker 1>been to the Maze in Williamsburg.

0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:38.680
<v Speaker 2>Oh cool, that's cool.

0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:43.000
<v Speaker 1>You know, the first famous musician I think of Williamsburg

0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:45.400
<v Speaker 1>is Bruce Warnsby. That is not the same kind of

0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:48.720
<v Speaker 1>music you play, but in nineteen eighty six you become

0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:52.840
<v Speaker 1>very successful, proving that it can be done. You're living

0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:56.360
<v Speaker 1>in Williamsburg. Is there any consciousness if this guy from

0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:57.600
<v Speaker 1>your area is successful?

0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:03.960
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely? Absolutely. When Bruce hit, it was such a pop sensation,

0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:06.640
<v Speaker 2>and you know he hit from La but as a

0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:13.360
<v Speaker 2>very just getting started with music that was very much

0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:17.440
<v Speaker 2>on my radar. I was in seventh eighth grade. I

0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:20.640
<v Speaker 2>want to say when that stuff really started hitting for him?

0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:23.880
<v Speaker 2>And I don't know a lot about Bruce Hornsby's sort

0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:26.400
<v Speaker 2>of trajectory to get to the point where he had

0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:28.520
<v Speaker 2>a major label deal and had a hit, but I

0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:30.760
<v Speaker 2>know he had hit right off of that first record.

0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:32.840
<v Speaker 2>I got to see him play with the Dead. I'm

0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:34.520
<v Speaker 2>a big Dead fan, and I saw the Dead in

0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:37.840
<v Speaker 2>the nineties and Bruce was playing playing keyboards with him

0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:39.800
<v Speaker 2>at Hampton Coliseum. So that was a real thrill for me,

0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:42.600
<v Speaker 2>especially knowing too that Bruce was from He's from Williamsburg.

0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:45.800
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, that did register with me. I mean by

0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:47.560
<v Speaker 2>that when when Bruce was hitting, I was more of

0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:50.040
<v Speaker 2>like a punk rock kind of thrash metal, just get

0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:52.720
<v Speaker 2>just starting to figure out that, Wow, maybe I can

0:16:52.760 --> 0:16:57.680
<v Speaker 2>play music. But that was that definitely hit on my

0:16:57.800 --> 0:16:58.520
<v Speaker 2>radar for sure.

0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:04.040
<v Speaker 1>Okay, your father is overseas, he meets your mother who's

0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:08.800
<v Speaker 1>from Germany, They get married, they grow there's a point

0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:12.800
<v Speaker 1>in the book where you're talking about things are not

0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:16.240
<v Speaker 1>really that good between him home life is not that good,

0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:17.919
<v Speaker 1>and you're reading the book and go, oh, they're going

0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:21.320
<v Speaker 1>to get divorced. But they don't get divorced. They never did,

0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:27.080
<v Speaker 1>so you know, it's tough for anybody when they're one

0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:29.520
<v Speaker 1>of the parents born overseas. Can he tell us more

0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:32.439
<v Speaker 1>about the relationship between the two of them and what

0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:34.520
<v Speaker 1>it was like growing up with one parent who was

0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:35.280
<v Speaker 1>non American?

0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:42.240
<v Speaker 2>Oh cool, what a fun question. Yeah. I love that

0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:44.360
<v Speaker 2>you point out that they never got divorced, because that's

0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:47.840
<v Speaker 2>just such a small little detail, but it's so important

0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:50.080
<v Speaker 2>to me, you know, because that's my mom and my dad,

0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:52.360
<v Speaker 2>and they went through really hard times and I don't

0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:56.040
<v Speaker 2>think that's that's certainly not unheard of. And you stay

0:17:56.080 --> 0:17:57.800
<v Speaker 2>married long enough, you're going to go through some stuff.

0:17:57.800 --> 0:18:00.920
<v Speaker 2>And my mom and dad suck it out. And when

0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:02.760
<v Speaker 2>my dad passed away, I think they'd been married for

0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:05.680
<v Speaker 2>fifty two years, and I'm glad they stuck it out,

0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:11.879
<v Speaker 2>you know, even maybe sometimes they weren't always glad, but

0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:15.960
<v Speaker 2>that's just that in that how it goes, right. What

0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:19.280
<v Speaker 2>was it like growing up with a mom from another country, Well,

0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:22.679
<v Speaker 2>it was great. So, you know, my dad worked in

0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:26.600
<v Speaker 2>a beer can factory most of his adult life. My

0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:33.000
<v Speaker 2>mom worked as a bank teller, and they both worked

0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:35.719
<v Speaker 2>really hard and we were very, you know, middle class family.

0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:39.080
<v Speaker 2>But what was really important to them as a couple

0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:40.879
<v Speaker 2>was that my mom be able to go back to

0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:46.600
<v Speaker 2>Germany periodically, pretty frequently to maintain visits and touch with

0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:48.920
<v Speaker 2>her family over there. She had a big family over there,

0:18:49.560 --> 0:18:51.960
<v Speaker 2>and when I came along, she would take me. So

0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:55.000
<v Speaker 2>some of my very earliest memories as a toddler are

0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:58.000
<v Speaker 2>in Germany, and I remember the sound being just a

0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:00.159
<v Speaker 2>little kid on the playground playing with kids who I

0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:04.080
<v Speaker 2>didn't speak the language, really, and it didn't matter. And

0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:07.399
<v Speaker 2>it's funny how kids that don't even speak the language

0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:09.879
<v Speaker 2>can manage to play together for hours. It just doesn't matter.

0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:15.159
<v Speaker 2>And I remember the sound of the you know, police

0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:17.560
<v Speaker 2>cars and ambulances and stuff. In Germany. There's a different

0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:19.760
<v Speaker 2>kind of siren over there, and I remember the sound

0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:23.080
<v Speaker 2>of that. I remember the sets, the smell of my

0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:26.919
<v Speaker 2>my grandfather's cigars and his car and that, and you know,

0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:29.479
<v Speaker 2>those are things that anyone remembers or their earliest memories,

0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:35.359
<v Speaker 2>but mine were in Germany. And other than that, I

0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:39.040
<v Speaker 2>think there wasn't probably that much difference. Really. We grew

0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:41.760
<v Speaker 2>up in a really kind of a small town in

0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:47.440
<v Speaker 2>Southeast Virginia, and the things that I experienced culturally were

0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:50.520
<v Speaker 2>very small town Southeast Virginia. But there always was this

0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:54.600
<v Speaker 2>component that I knew that we were also German, and

0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:58.640
<v Speaker 2>that I would hear German around the house my mom all.

0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:01.280
<v Speaker 2>You know, the few German ladies that were in this town,

0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:03.440
<v Speaker 2>and there were more than you would expect, they all

0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:07.000
<v Speaker 2>found each other and they would get together and socialize,

0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:09.359
<v Speaker 2>and so you would walk in on a Sunday afternoon

0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:14.960
<v Speaker 2>to our house and see some German ladies sitting around

0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:16.440
<v Speaker 2>smoking cigarettes, talking German.

0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:20.480
<v Speaker 1>You know, well, as a little kid, you want to

0:20:20.520 --> 0:20:23.480
<v Speaker 1>fit in the fact that your mother was German and

0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:27.439
<v Speaker 1>probably had an accent. Did you think about that bringing

0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:29.320
<v Speaker 1>kids to the house or when she would go to

0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:32.000
<v Speaker 1>some function. Was that an issue?

0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:35.480
<v Speaker 2>It was not an issue. But it's funny that you

0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:38.280
<v Speaker 2>mentioned that, because I didn't know my mother had an

0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:41.200
<v Speaker 2>accent until kids would point it out, or I would

0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:43.119
<v Speaker 2>even after I had heard it before. I would forget

0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:45.920
<v Speaker 2>and someone would say something about my mother's accent, because

0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:47.720
<v Speaker 2>to me, that's just what my mom sounded like. It

0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:50.320
<v Speaker 2>didn't sound like a German accent. To me, it sounded

0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:50.880
<v Speaker 2>like my mother.

0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:56.840
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you talk about your parents going through ups and downs.

0:20:56.920 --> 0:21:00.800
<v Speaker 1>My parents certainly screamed and went through up and downs,

0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:04.920
<v Speaker 1>but stayed together. Do you think it was just that

0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:07.120
<v Speaker 1>it was your appearance or did they really go through

0:21:07.160 --> 0:21:09.919
<v Speaker 1>tough times? Oh?

0:21:10.000 --> 0:21:11.919
<v Speaker 2>Well, they went through tough times for sure, and I

0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:14.399
<v Speaker 2>don't want to air out any of their stuff, but

0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:16.080
<v Speaker 2>they certainly went through some tough times.

0:21:16.160 --> 0:21:18.760
<v Speaker 1>Well, I guess what I'm asking is we're the tough

0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:21.560
<v Speaker 1>times that they came from different countries.

0:21:22.040 --> 0:21:27.520
<v Speaker 2>Right, I never thought of it that way. I think

0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:30.600
<v Speaker 2>the tough times maybe had to do with they came

0:21:30.640 --> 0:21:33.920
<v Speaker 2>from different backgrounds, and I think they could have come

0:21:33.960 --> 0:21:37.960
<v Speaker 2>from those different backgrounds and been from the same country,

0:21:38.000 --> 0:21:40.359
<v Speaker 2>but they weren't. But they came from different backgrounds, and

0:21:40.400 --> 0:21:44.160
<v Speaker 2>they had different expectations about what family meant and what

0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:47.800
<v Speaker 2>their roles were in there, I think, and you know,

0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:49.679
<v Speaker 2>you can see where those would be some sort of

0:21:49.840 --> 0:21:54.000
<v Speaker 2>very foundational challenges, and I think and there was a

0:21:54.000 --> 0:21:55.880
<v Speaker 2>lot of change, and I talk about that in the book.

0:21:55.960 --> 0:21:58.959
<v Speaker 2>You know, there was my dad was getting promotions and

0:21:59.040 --> 0:22:02.000
<v Speaker 2>I think they fell and you know, you'll remember from

0:22:02.000 --> 0:22:05.639
<v Speaker 2>the eighties there was very much this less so I

0:22:05.680 --> 0:22:08.920
<v Speaker 2>think now then, you know, there was very much this

0:22:09.520 --> 0:22:14.080
<v Speaker 2>implied pressure to succeed and to get ahead, and very capitalists,

0:22:14.119 --> 0:22:17.720
<v Speaker 2>very like, you know, get make more money and move

0:22:17.760 --> 0:22:19.840
<v Speaker 2>into the nicer neighborhood and drive the nicer car. And

0:22:19.880 --> 0:22:22.400
<v Speaker 2>I think to a degree, I don't I wouldn't characterize

0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:24.639
<v Speaker 2>either of my parents have ever having been materialistic, but

0:22:24.680 --> 0:22:27.440
<v Speaker 2>I think to a degree that was the culture that

0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:29.240
<v Speaker 2>we were all living in at the time, and I

0:22:29.240 --> 0:22:31.240
<v Speaker 2>think that there was some pressure there and I think

0:22:31.560 --> 0:22:34.640
<v Speaker 2>some of those you know, I was just a little boy,

0:22:34.680 --> 0:22:36.880
<v Speaker 2>but from looking back on it and sort of surveying

0:22:36.920 --> 0:22:40.199
<v Speaker 2>the situation from memory, I would imagine that some of

0:22:40.240 --> 0:22:43.359
<v Speaker 2>that pressure and some of that drive to like push

0:22:43.400 --> 0:22:46.720
<v Speaker 2>forward and get ahead probably got in the way of

0:22:46.760 --> 0:22:51.880
<v Speaker 2>what might have otherwise been some more serene times.

0:22:52.400 --> 0:22:55.560
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to hammer this, but your mother's from Germany,

0:22:55.640 --> 0:22:58.480
<v Speaker 1>your father's from America. Is that the difference you're talking

0:22:58.520 --> 0:23:01.680
<v Speaker 1>about a more socioacono one is of a higher status

0:23:01.720 --> 0:23:02.160
<v Speaker 1>than the other.

0:23:03.000 --> 0:23:05.040
<v Speaker 2>No, I think they were both. They both came from

0:23:05.400 --> 0:23:09.359
<v Speaker 2>relatively poorer families. It was my mom was a refugee

0:23:09.400 --> 0:23:13.400
<v Speaker 2>in post World War two and my dad just grew

0:23:13.480 --> 0:23:18.399
<v Speaker 2>up in the woods to very, very poor, poor parents.

0:23:18.440 --> 0:23:20.320
<v Speaker 2>I think what they had in common, honestly, is that

0:23:20.359 --> 0:23:24.080
<v Speaker 2>they both were running as far away as they could,

0:23:24.080 --> 0:23:26.879
<v Speaker 2>as quick as fast as they could from the environments

0:23:26.920 --> 0:23:28.520
<v Speaker 2>that they were in. And I think that early in

0:23:28.640 --> 0:23:31.359
<v Speaker 2>is what they shared in common. But I think I

0:23:31.440 --> 0:23:34.880
<v Speaker 2>just think over time they probably had different expectations from

0:23:34.920 --> 0:23:38.360
<v Speaker 2>each other. But again, at the end of it all,

0:23:40.760 --> 0:23:44.680
<v Speaker 2>they found a way and had a very very long,

0:23:44.760 --> 0:23:46.000
<v Speaker 2>thriving marriage.

0:23:46.200 --> 0:23:49.800
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you go to college. Most of the people that

0:23:49.840 --> 0:23:53.760
<v Speaker 1>you grew up with stay and go to a local college.

0:23:53.960 --> 0:23:56.760
<v Speaker 1>What drove you? Was there parental pressure or were they

0:23:56.840 --> 0:23:59.359
<v Speaker 1>completely checked out? You were doing whatever you wanted.

0:24:01.000 --> 0:24:01.080
<v Speaker 3>No.

0:24:01.440 --> 0:24:06.200
<v Speaker 2>What drove me to go to Virginia Conwell University in Richmond,

0:24:06.240 --> 0:24:09.679
<v Speaker 2>which was an hour from where I grew up, was

0:24:09.800 --> 0:24:14.280
<v Speaker 2>that I knew that VCU in particular, and Richmond in general,

0:24:14.320 --> 0:24:19.040
<v Speaker 2>I had a very very fruitful, very very energized art

0:24:19.119 --> 0:24:21.320
<v Speaker 2>and music scene, and so by the time I was

0:24:21.359 --> 0:24:23.040
<v Speaker 2>getting out of high school, I had already been playing

0:24:23.080 --> 0:24:24.760
<v Speaker 2>in bands. In fact that I already been playing in

0:24:24.800 --> 0:24:28.960
<v Speaker 2>clubs with the bands that I had put together. So

0:24:29.160 --> 0:24:33.800
<v Speaker 2>what really drew me to Richmond was less. It wasn't

0:24:33.920 --> 0:24:37.480
<v Speaker 2>as much anything specific about the university. It was more

0:24:37.480 --> 0:24:42.760
<v Speaker 2>about where it was, and it was relatively close to home,

0:24:43.720 --> 0:24:46.080
<v Speaker 2>but far enough away where I could be pretty immersed

0:24:46.080 --> 0:24:48.120
<v Speaker 2>into what was going on in Richmond. It felt different,

0:24:49.000 --> 0:24:51.280
<v Speaker 2>and it felt very exciting, and I wanted to be

0:24:51.320 --> 0:24:52.760
<v Speaker 2>a part of that. And that would be a theme

0:24:52.800 --> 0:24:55.560
<v Speaker 2>because later when I went to Chicago to go to

0:24:55.560 --> 0:25:01.280
<v Speaker 2>grad school in ninety five inte ninety five, in Chicago.

0:25:02.520 --> 0:25:05.040
<v Speaker 2>Chicago had this really really cool underground scene Touch and

0:25:05.080 --> 0:25:09.239
<v Speaker 2>Go Records, and the Jesus Lizard was from there, and

0:25:09.359 --> 0:25:12.200
<v Speaker 2>Shellac and Tortoise was just getting big, and so it

0:25:12.280 --> 0:25:14.800
<v Speaker 2>was this really cool underground scene there that was happening,

0:25:15.200 --> 0:25:17.159
<v Speaker 2>and for me, I just wanted to be near it

0:25:17.160 --> 0:25:19.359
<v Speaker 2>because I thought being in the proximity of something that

0:25:19.400 --> 0:25:22.359
<v Speaker 2>was cool and happening would increase my chances of being

0:25:22.520 --> 0:25:24.800
<v Speaker 2>becoming a part of something that was cool and that

0:25:24.920 --> 0:25:27.440
<v Speaker 2>was happening. So I was trying to put myself close

0:25:27.480 --> 0:25:31.480
<v Speaker 2>to the epicenter of something that I thought might be

0:25:32.000 --> 0:25:35.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, that I might be able to get absorbed by.

0:25:35.880 --> 0:25:37.840
<v Speaker 1>But your father said he wasn't going to pay if

0:25:37.840 --> 0:25:39.000
<v Speaker 1>you were studying music.

0:25:39.480 --> 0:25:41.520
<v Speaker 2>I wanted to go to music school, and Vcus has

0:25:41.560 --> 0:25:43.640
<v Speaker 2>a good music school, and so for me, I want

0:25:43.680 --> 0:25:45.040
<v Speaker 2>to play music, I want to be enrich, and I

0:25:45.040 --> 0:25:47.240
<v Speaker 2>want to go to music school. And my dad's deal

0:25:47.400 --> 0:25:49.920
<v Speaker 2>was my dad had a deal for me, and he

0:25:50.240 --> 0:25:51.840
<v Speaker 2>dropped out of high school. In fact, as far as

0:25:51.880 --> 0:25:53.120
<v Speaker 2>I know, and I think I say this in book,

0:25:53.240 --> 0:25:56.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm pretty sure I'm the first person in either side

0:25:56.280 --> 0:26:00.719
<v Speaker 2>of my family to ever graduate college. And my dad's

0:26:00.720 --> 0:26:03.640
<v Speaker 2>deal for me was I will pay for your school.

0:26:04.480 --> 0:26:06.640
<v Speaker 2>You get a full ride from me for college because

0:26:06.640 --> 0:26:08.440
<v Speaker 2>you got your you got the grades to get in,

0:26:09.160 --> 0:26:12.000
<v Speaker 2>and I believe in giving you this opportunity. So I'm

0:26:12.000 --> 0:26:14.800
<v Speaker 2>going to pay for you. But there are there's one rule.

0:26:16.119 --> 0:26:19.040
<v Speaker 2>You will take no breaks. You will take no semesters off,

0:26:19.119 --> 0:26:21.520
<v Speaker 2>you will take no years off. There's no gap year.

0:26:21.600 --> 0:26:23.280
<v Speaker 2>I don't think people even use that. Turn back. Then

0:26:24.680 --> 0:26:27.119
<v Speaker 2>you will start and you will go until the end

0:26:27.160 --> 0:26:31.679
<v Speaker 2>and finish. If you stop, I stopped paying. I'm sorry.

0:26:32.520 --> 0:26:34.720
<v Speaker 2>That's the deal. That's the deal. I want to go

0:26:34.760 --> 0:26:37.360
<v Speaker 2>to VC music School and he's like, that's the other rule.

0:26:37.359 --> 0:26:41.639
<v Speaker 2>I'm not paying for music school. So I went for

0:26:41.760 --> 0:26:44.040
<v Speaker 2>mass communications. That's where I started. I started as a

0:26:44.040 --> 0:26:46.439
<v Speaker 2>mass communications major because again that was to me, the

0:26:46.440 --> 0:26:48.720
<v Speaker 2>closest thing to music. If you're studying mass colm, you

0:26:48.800 --> 0:26:50.760
<v Speaker 2>might be in radio, you might be in TV. It's

0:26:50.800 --> 0:26:52.800
<v Speaker 2>something to do with music. I was just my mind

0:26:52.920 --> 0:26:54.800
<v Speaker 2>was just trying to connect dots.

0:26:56.240 --> 0:27:00.600
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you talk about your father being more successful and

0:27:00.760 --> 0:27:03.640
<v Speaker 1>moving and you had to go to a different school.

0:27:05.359 --> 0:27:08.520
<v Speaker 1>There were opportunities there, but you'd also talk about it

0:27:08.560 --> 0:27:11.880
<v Speaker 1>being traumatic to what degree. Was that a big deal

0:27:11.920 --> 0:27:12.159
<v Speaker 1>for you?

0:27:13.520 --> 0:27:15.600
<v Speaker 2>Well, I don't think, you know, to say it was

0:27:15.720 --> 0:27:23.040
<v Speaker 2>traumatic U is probably uh, you know, it's hard to say. Oh,

0:27:23.119 --> 0:27:27.200
<v Speaker 2>the trauma of moving from the lower barely middle class

0:27:27.200 --> 0:27:30.200
<v Speaker 2>neighborhood to the upper class neighborhood with the tennis courts

0:27:30.240 --> 0:27:32.600
<v Speaker 2>in the swimming pool. Oh the trauma. You know, it

0:27:32.960 --> 0:27:36.920
<v Speaker 2>wasn't traumatic. It was you know, there was a component

0:27:37.119 --> 0:27:40.080
<v Speaker 2>of it to me, to us that felt a little

0:27:40.080 --> 0:27:43.199
<v Speaker 2>bit Beverly Hillbillies a little It felt a bit like

0:27:43.280 --> 0:27:46.240
<v Speaker 2>we were this family that moved from the edge of

0:27:46.240 --> 0:27:50.199
<v Speaker 2>the woods with our you know, our dirt bikes and

0:27:50.240 --> 0:27:53.879
<v Speaker 2>our old cars and stuff, and we moved into the

0:27:54.520 --> 0:27:56.520
<v Speaker 2>nicer neighborhood and there was a little bit like these

0:27:56.600 --> 0:27:58.399
<v Speaker 2>kids were like who are you? Like, what are you

0:27:58.440 --> 0:28:01.240
<v Speaker 2>doing here? Kind of thing that that was traumatic. I

0:28:01.240 --> 0:28:02.960
<v Speaker 2>think it was more of a learning curve for me.

0:28:04.359 --> 0:28:06.879
<v Speaker 2>But I think really more than that, I think I

0:28:07.000 --> 0:28:09.359
<v Speaker 2>was just kind of a shy and an awkward kid,

0:28:10.000 --> 0:28:13.720
<v Speaker 2>and that combined with being put into a new neighborhood.

0:28:13.760 --> 0:28:17.160
<v Speaker 2>These are sort of universal things. You take any shy,

0:28:17.200 --> 0:28:20.119
<v Speaker 2>awkward kid and you move them, you know, down the

0:28:20.200 --> 0:28:22.800
<v Speaker 2>road to a different school and a different neighborhood and

0:28:22.800 --> 0:28:27.960
<v Speaker 2>it's it's gonna be tough, just kind of life being

0:28:28.400 --> 0:28:31.880
<v Speaker 2>doing what life does. But I took those things real

0:28:31.960 --> 0:28:35.440
<v Speaker 2>hard because of just who I was and my inability

0:28:35.480 --> 0:28:38.760
<v Speaker 2>to really have tough skin at the time. And all

0:28:38.800 --> 0:28:44.920
<v Speaker 2>of that stuff wound up feeding into why music and

0:28:45.000 --> 0:28:49.000
<v Speaker 2>why playing guitar was so important to me so vital,

0:28:49.080 --> 0:28:53.040
<v Speaker 2>because it gave me something. Once that guitar got in

0:28:53.080 --> 0:28:55.240
<v Speaker 2>my hand, it gave me a way to make none

0:28:55.280 --> 0:28:57.760
<v Speaker 2>of that stuff matter. I happened to be really good

0:28:57.800 --> 0:29:00.400
<v Speaker 2>at guitar really quick, and I could recognize that, and

0:29:00.440 --> 0:29:03.760
<v Speaker 2>it also made me feel complete in a way that

0:29:03.840 --> 0:29:08.120
<v Speaker 2>nothing else had. I had tried skateboarding with the neighborhood kids,

0:29:08.280 --> 0:29:11.840
<v Speaker 2>I had tried, you know, joining the sports teams. I

0:29:11.880 --> 0:29:14.880
<v Speaker 2>wasn't good at any of that stuff. But as soon

0:29:14.880 --> 0:29:17.520
<v Speaker 2>as a guitar fell into my hand, like that made

0:29:17.520 --> 0:29:20.560
<v Speaker 2>sense to me, and I was really able to navigate

0:29:20.600 --> 0:29:22.479
<v Speaker 2>that and make sense of it very quickly, and it

0:29:22.560 --> 0:29:24.480
<v Speaker 2>made me feel a part of something, and I just

0:29:24.560 --> 0:29:27.080
<v Speaker 2>didn't want to let it go. So I think all

0:29:27.120 --> 0:29:31.240
<v Speaker 2>of that anxiety and all that social awkwardness set the

0:29:31.280 --> 0:29:35.480
<v Speaker 2>scene for me to really be relieved and be completed

0:29:35.520 --> 0:29:36.640
<v Speaker 2>if you will by music.

0:29:37.480 --> 0:29:39.240
<v Speaker 1>It's in the book, But tell my audience how you

0:29:39.320 --> 0:29:40.400
<v Speaker 1>end up playing the guitar.

0:29:41.920 --> 0:29:44.600
<v Speaker 2>I ended up playing guitar because my dad wouldn't let

0:29:44.600 --> 0:29:48.600
<v Speaker 2>me get a drum set. We had. I talked about

0:29:48.600 --> 0:29:50.920
<v Speaker 2>it in the book. So this is the early eighties,

0:29:50.920 --> 0:29:54.960
<v Speaker 2>the early into the mid eighties where MTVS had been

0:29:55.000 --> 0:29:56.640
<v Speaker 2>around for a minute, but it didn't make it to

0:29:56.760 --> 0:29:58.680
<v Speaker 2>us right away. So it made it to it made

0:29:58.680 --> 0:30:01.800
<v Speaker 2>it to you know, Southeast Virginia, and like every other

0:30:01.880 --> 0:30:05.240
<v Speaker 2>kid in America, I was glued to MTV. Latchkey, kid,

0:30:05.240 --> 0:30:06.880
<v Speaker 2>come home from school. You're not gonna see your parents

0:30:06.880 --> 0:30:09.040
<v Speaker 2>for three hours, and you're just sitting there watching MTV,

0:30:10.160 --> 0:30:12.840
<v Speaker 2>which was great. And so I'm watching all this music

0:30:12.880 --> 0:30:15.640
<v Speaker 2>in a way that I'd never seen it before. And

0:30:15.720 --> 0:30:19.440
<v Speaker 2>I wanted to play drums. And you know, my parents,

0:30:19.600 --> 0:30:21.160
<v Speaker 2>I described it in the book. They were always very,

0:30:21.240 --> 0:30:24.040
<v Speaker 2>very supportive of me and things I wanted to do.

0:30:24.080 --> 0:30:27.400
<v Speaker 2>I really had a great childhood, and I wanted to

0:30:27.400 --> 0:30:30.600
<v Speaker 2>play music and asked for a drum set, and my dad,

0:30:30.720 --> 0:30:35.480
<v Speaker 2>very wisely, I'm not getting a drum set was too loud.

0:30:35.520 --> 0:30:37.640
<v Speaker 2>He knew enough about music to know you can't turn

0:30:37.680 --> 0:30:41.400
<v Speaker 2>a drum set down. So my second choice was guitar,

0:30:41.520 --> 0:30:43.800
<v Speaker 2>so we got the back. Then they had this thing

0:30:43.840 --> 0:30:46.080
<v Speaker 2>called the Trading Post, which was a newspaper full of

0:30:46.880 --> 0:30:49.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, ads of people selling secondhand stuff, and we

0:30:50.000 --> 0:30:53.640
<v Speaker 2>found a guitar in there about a half hour away

0:30:53.640 --> 0:30:56.200
<v Speaker 2>for fifteen dollars and that was my very first guitar.

0:31:04.000 --> 0:31:05.760
<v Speaker 1>I can tell us about your brother buying or you

0:31:05.880 --> 0:31:06.720
<v Speaker 1>a left pool.

0:31:06.560 --> 0:31:11.719
<v Speaker 2>Junior, my brother did. My brother was very supportive of

0:31:11.840 --> 0:31:14.560
<v Speaker 2>music as well. I think he's he such a music fan.

0:31:14.680 --> 0:31:19.640
<v Speaker 2>He was excited to see me getting involved. And again,

0:31:20.200 --> 0:31:25.320
<v Speaker 2>I was just pretty naturally good at guitar, so it

0:31:25.360 --> 0:31:27.680
<v Speaker 2>was pretty clear early on that I was making sense

0:31:27.720 --> 0:31:29.640
<v Speaker 2>of it pretty quickly, and I think that excited him

0:31:29.640 --> 0:31:32.280
<v Speaker 2>and he bought me my first less Paul. He used

0:31:32.320 --> 0:31:36.960
<v Speaker 2>to take me to music stores in a couple of

0:31:37.000 --> 0:31:40.520
<v Speaker 2>towns over where they had malls and they had shopping districts,

0:31:40.560 --> 0:31:43.160
<v Speaker 2>and there would be music stores and we would just

0:31:43.200 --> 0:31:45.160
<v Speaker 2>go on a Friday night just to hang out there,

0:31:46.360 --> 0:31:49.760
<v Speaker 2>and I would just walk the walls and stare at

0:31:49.800 --> 0:31:53.160
<v Speaker 2>these incredible guitars, which at the time looked to me

0:31:53.600 --> 0:31:57.920
<v Speaker 2>like otherworldly. Just to be in the presence of a

0:31:57.960 --> 0:32:01.040
<v Speaker 2>Gibson left Paul. Was such a thrill for me at

0:32:01.080 --> 0:32:02.960
<v Speaker 2>twelve and thirteen years old, just to be in the

0:32:03.040 --> 0:32:05.880
<v Speaker 2>room with one. I haven't even put it that way

0:32:05.960 --> 0:32:07.920
<v Speaker 2>until I'm talking to you, but it's really how it

0:32:08.000 --> 0:32:10.680
<v Speaker 2>was to be in the room with the Gibson less

0:32:10.680 --> 0:32:13.960
<v Speaker 2>Paul let alone get one in my hands. And after

0:32:14.000 --> 0:32:17.400
<v Speaker 2>we start going there for a while, we got to

0:32:17.440 --> 0:32:21.080
<v Speaker 2>know the guys that were running the shop, and they

0:32:21.120 --> 0:32:23.400
<v Speaker 2>heard me play and they realized that this kid can

0:32:23.480 --> 0:32:25.400
<v Speaker 2>kind of play, you know, so they started handing me

0:32:25.440 --> 0:32:27.520
<v Speaker 2>really cool stuff. So I got to play less Paul's

0:32:27.520 --> 0:32:30.120
<v Speaker 2>and I got to play real strats, and I got

0:32:30.120 --> 0:32:35.200
<v Speaker 2>to play Charvel's, which were like super cool modern guitars

0:32:35.240 --> 0:32:40.080
<v Speaker 2>of the day, and I could play them. So I

0:32:40.120 --> 0:32:42.480
<v Speaker 2>would be this little kid, and I looked even younger

0:32:42.480 --> 0:32:44.520
<v Speaker 2>than I was at the time, so I would just

0:32:45.360 --> 0:32:50.000
<v Speaker 2>eyes closed playing Randy Rhodes rifts, and I would, you know,

0:32:50.440 --> 0:32:52.760
<v Speaker 2>look over my shoulder, and there were three, four or

0:32:52.800 --> 0:32:55.640
<v Speaker 2>five people standing around watching me play because I was

0:32:55.680 --> 0:32:59.480
<v Speaker 2>pretty good, and I looked I was thirteen, looked eleven,

0:32:59.520 --> 0:33:01.400
<v Speaker 2>and they're like, wow, look at this could go, you know,

0:33:01.840 --> 0:33:03.960
<v Speaker 2>So my brother was really supportive about that, and I

0:33:04.000 --> 0:33:06.280
<v Speaker 2>think he enjoyed those trips and I really did. And

0:33:06.360 --> 0:33:08.800
<v Speaker 2>on the way to and from, you know, those hour

0:33:08.880 --> 0:33:11.120
<v Speaker 2>long drives, we would listen to music. And my brother

0:33:11.240 --> 0:33:13.280
<v Speaker 2>had really, really good taste in music, and he was

0:33:13.320 --> 0:33:16.760
<v Speaker 2>significantly older than me. So that was a real advantage

0:33:16.760 --> 0:33:21.600
<v Speaker 2>for me because I was hearing toys in the attic.

0:33:22.600 --> 0:33:24.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm twelve years old, thirteen years old. I wasn't the

0:33:24.800 --> 0:33:26.760
<v Speaker 2>only twelve thirteen year old hearing that, but I was.

0:33:27.040 --> 0:33:28.920
<v Speaker 2>I don't know that I would have otherwise, you know.

0:33:29.320 --> 0:33:33.320
<v Speaker 2>So I was hearing these cool like Leonard Scanner's CCR.

0:33:33.400 --> 0:33:36.640
<v Speaker 2>All this cool stuff that he was into was just

0:33:37.120 --> 0:33:42.280
<v Speaker 2>absorbing into my brain. And those were those were really

0:33:43.200 --> 0:33:46.320
<v Speaker 2>really great memories and really great trips, and I got

0:33:46.320 --> 0:33:49.160
<v Speaker 2>to play some really cool guitars at an early age.

0:33:49.400 --> 0:33:51.080
<v Speaker 1>Do you still have that Leshpool Junior?

0:33:51.760 --> 0:33:53.440
<v Speaker 2>Oh? Yeah, so that's really how we got to this.

0:33:53.960 --> 0:33:58.960
<v Speaker 2>So a Christmas or two and after that, he, unbeknownst

0:33:58.960 --> 0:34:00.560
<v Speaker 2>to me, had put a deposit down on a les

0:34:00.600 --> 0:34:02.800
<v Speaker 2>Paul Junior. I absolutely still have that less Paul Junior.

0:34:02.880 --> 0:34:03.080
<v Speaker 1>I do.

0:34:03.280 --> 0:34:05.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's not getting rid of that.

0:34:05.800 --> 0:34:07.720
<v Speaker 1>Are you a gear guy? Use somebody with one hundred

0:34:07.720 --> 0:34:11.080
<v Speaker 1>guitars twenty am so youse someone that's not your thing

0:34:11.120 --> 0:34:12.080
<v Speaker 1>as only as you have one.

0:34:12.800 --> 0:34:14.440
<v Speaker 2>So I think I'm a little bit in the middle.

0:34:14.480 --> 0:34:18.800
<v Speaker 2>I have a pretty cool vintage guitar collection these days.

0:34:18.960 --> 0:34:22.680
<v Speaker 2>I have some cool old stuff, not a ton of it.

0:34:23.040 --> 0:34:26.440
<v Speaker 2>I have also, Bob, you know, we tour a lot.

0:34:26.560 --> 0:34:28.239
<v Speaker 2>Lad with God tours a lot, so I have a

0:34:28.320 --> 0:34:30.879
<v Speaker 2>touring gear. We play in three different tunings and need

0:34:30.880 --> 0:34:33.000
<v Speaker 2>a backup, so I pretty much need six guitars to

0:34:33.040 --> 0:34:38.200
<v Speaker 2>do a show without fear of, you know, a hiccup.

0:34:38.280 --> 0:34:40.520
<v Speaker 2>So there's the touring gear. So I probably have twenty

0:34:40.520 --> 0:34:43.840
<v Speaker 2>thirty guitars that we use between the europe rig and

0:34:44.080 --> 0:34:47.040
<v Speaker 2>the US rig and the fly rig, and those are

0:34:47.080 --> 0:34:49.239
<v Speaker 2>all very very nice guitars, and I love them all,

0:34:49.280 --> 0:34:53.880
<v Speaker 2>and I curate that collection of live guitars right. But

0:34:53.960 --> 0:34:55.960
<v Speaker 2>then I have the guitars I have here at home,

0:34:56.000 --> 0:34:58.600
<v Speaker 2>which are a couple that would make it into that pile.

0:34:58.880 --> 0:35:02.600
<v Speaker 2>But I have also a vintage collection of I don't

0:35:02.600 --> 0:35:06.279
<v Speaker 2>know six eight guitars that are old and very collectible

0:35:06.360 --> 0:35:09.480
<v Speaker 2>but super great examples of what they are, and those

0:35:09.480 --> 0:35:11.759
<v Speaker 2>are those I'm really fond of those, and they're very

0:35:11.800 --> 0:35:14.720
<v Speaker 2>inspirational when I play this. So I'm not a crazy

0:35:14.800 --> 0:35:17.560
<v Speaker 2>like need a need a separate, need to rent a

0:35:17.600 --> 0:35:19.440
<v Speaker 2>warehouse for all my gear kind of guy. But I

0:35:19.480 --> 0:35:20.440
<v Speaker 2>do have some cool stuff.

0:35:21.320 --> 0:35:27.680
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you're taking lessons to what degree? Can you read music?

0:35:27.880 --> 0:35:29.480
<v Speaker 1>Or could read music? Back then?

0:35:30.600 --> 0:35:34.440
<v Speaker 2>Very little and maybe better than than I do now,

0:35:35.320 --> 0:35:37.719
<v Speaker 2>because then I was closer to having teachers. You know.

0:35:38.000 --> 0:35:39.719
<v Speaker 2>I took some lessons and they would try to teach

0:35:39.760 --> 0:35:45.440
<v Speaker 2>me some just basic site reading, and you know, for

0:35:45.480 --> 0:35:47.160
<v Speaker 2>a minute, I could do that stuff, but I really

0:35:47.200 --> 0:35:49.080
<v Speaker 2>found it for what I wanted to do on the

0:35:49.080 --> 0:35:54.720
<v Speaker 2>instrument to be all not all that important. It's funny.

0:35:54.800 --> 0:35:58.719
<v Speaker 2>I recently did a session with with Tim Leffay who

0:35:59.760 --> 0:36:04.240
<v Speaker 2>play Tadashi Trucks, and he played based on Bowie's Blackstar record.

0:36:04.440 --> 0:36:07.160
<v Speaker 2>He's all over that record and I did a session

0:36:07.160 --> 0:36:09.800
<v Speaker 2>with him and he comes in with these charts he

0:36:10.040 --> 0:36:13.400
<v Speaker 2>charted out the teens were doing and he handed me

0:36:13.400 --> 0:36:14.600
<v Speaker 2>a chart. I was like, I don't know what to

0:36:14.640 --> 0:36:17.040
<v Speaker 2>do with this. I was like, I just had to

0:36:17.080 --> 0:36:18.719
<v Speaker 2>listen to the tunes and know them, you know what

0:36:18.760 --> 0:36:23.359
<v Speaker 2>I mean. And we had a chuckle about that. But

0:36:23.520 --> 0:36:26.879
<v Speaker 2>so yeah, I don't read music very well at all.

0:36:27.560 --> 0:36:29.440
<v Speaker 2>In fact, I frankly don't read music at all. But

0:36:29.480 --> 0:36:35.000
<v Speaker 2>I have a really good year, and I think that

0:36:35.440 --> 0:36:40.600
<v Speaker 2>there's no unless you want to be just a higher

0:36:40.640 --> 0:36:44.080
<v Speaker 2>on session player, which is great. That's the world needs those,

0:36:44.120 --> 0:36:47.080
<v Speaker 2>and there's some amazing ones those guys need to read.

0:36:47.520 --> 0:36:50.640
<v Speaker 2>But I've been fortunate enough where most of the stuff

0:36:50.680 --> 0:36:53.439
<v Speaker 2>I do is just writing, or most of it's doing

0:36:53.440 --> 0:36:56.839
<v Speaker 2>my own stuff anyway. So a couple of times I've

0:36:56.840 --> 0:36:59.040
<v Speaker 2>had guys chart out stuff because they're doing sessions with me,

0:36:59.120 --> 0:37:00.880
<v Speaker 2>but I'll have to take word for that that's what

0:37:00.920 --> 0:37:02.480
<v Speaker 2>the chart is, because I can't call them out and

0:37:02.480 --> 0:37:03.200
<v Speaker 2>tell them it's wrong.

0:37:04.320 --> 0:37:06.600
<v Speaker 1>One of the themes in the book is you're weep,

0:37:07.600 --> 0:37:10.440
<v Speaker 1>talk about sit in front of the TV eating junk food,

0:37:10.960 --> 0:37:14.240
<v Speaker 1>talk about ultimately losing the weight, but always thinking about

0:37:14.280 --> 0:37:14.600
<v Speaker 1>the weight.

0:37:14.680 --> 0:37:18.560
<v Speaker 2>Tell us about that, Yeah, you know, it's a chubby kid,

0:37:18.640 --> 0:37:24.160
<v Speaker 2>and just felt really self conscious about that always. And

0:37:24.239 --> 0:37:26.840
<v Speaker 2>I think, like most chubby kids, I got teased a

0:37:26.840 --> 0:37:29.960
<v Speaker 2>little bit for being chubby kid. And that's no fun

0:37:30.080 --> 0:37:33.759
<v Speaker 2>for any chubby kid. Other kids get teased for other things.

0:37:33.840 --> 0:37:38.200
<v Speaker 2>It's it's not this unthinkable, unimaginable trauma again. But for me,

0:37:38.400 --> 0:37:40.839
<v Speaker 2>it just stuck. For whatever reason, I just didn't want

0:37:40.880 --> 0:37:46.440
<v Speaker 2>to be the fat kid. And I've at some point

0:37:46.520 --> 0:37:48.480
<v Speaker 2>I think I just hit a little gross burt and

0:37:48.480 --> 0:37:51.160
<v Speaker 2>I just decided not to eat very much and I

0:37:51.200 --> 0:37:54.640
<v Speaker 2>got skinny, and you know, became the thin kid with

0:37:54.719 --> 0:37:56.840
<v Speaker 2>the Les Paul and the Rockberry rock and roll, and

0:37:56.880 --> 0:37:58.359
<v Speaker 2>that worked for a long time. But it's still all

0:37:58.400 --> 0:38:00.560
<v Speaker 2>my life. I just always still have what I call

0:38:00.640 --> 0:38:05.560
<v Speaker 2>that fat kid mentality. And you know, as I've gotten older,

0:38:05.600 --> 0:38:09.560
<v Speaker 2>you know, I still struggle to not have extra weight on.

0:38:09.680 --> 0:38:13.840
<v Speaker 2>But it's always, uh, it's always it always takes me

0:38:13.880 --> 0:38:16.719
<v Speaker 2>back to that mentality, that fat kid mentality, that feeling like,

0:38:16.840 --> 0:38:20.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, the the ashamed of oneself and one's and

0:38:20.320 --> 0:38:26.840
<v Speaker 2>having this sort of I guess over can I don't know,

0:38:26.880 --> 0:38:29.560
<v Speaker 2>it's over concerned, but just sort of being a self

0:38:29.560 --> 0:38:33.799
<v Speaker 2>obsessed with weight and with my body image and that

0:38:33.880 --> 0:38:37.200
<v Speaker 2>kind of thing. I think I think that's pretty normal stuff.

0:38:37.239 --> 0:38:39.239
<v Speaker 2>I don't think a lot of men talk about that,

0:38:40.640 --> 0:38:42.759
<v Speaker 2>but it was part of the story, you know.

0:38:43.560 --> 0:38:48.000
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you start off playing classic rock, how do you

0:38:48.280 --> 0:38:53.400
<v Speaker 1>end up getting into metal? And then the kind of

0:38:53.400 --> 0:38:58.600
<v Speaker 1>metal Limb of God plays well.

0:38:59.000 --> 0:39:03.239
<v Speaker 2>I started out playing whatever I could play, and it

0:39:03.440 --> 0:39:07.040
<v Speaker 2>was a blend of classic rock and there was some

0:39:07.080 --> 0:39:10.239
<v Speaker 2>sex pistols and ramones kind of thing going on in there.

0:39:10.360 --> 0:39:16.160
<v Speaker 2>And you know, the beauty of punk rock is that

0:39:16.280 --> 0:39:20.239
<v Speaker 2>it has a great energy and it's often not very

0:39:20.239 --> 0:39:24.160
<v Speaker 2>difficult to play, not always, but often, so that's a

0:39:24.200 --> 0:39:27.319
<v Speaker 2>great place for a young guitar player to start. And

0:39:27.360 --> 0:39:31.319
<v Speaker 2>then the same thing can be said for ac DC.

0:39:32.120 --> 0:39:34.160
<v Speaker 2>I mean that is some of the most classic hard

0:39:34.239 --> 0:39:37.640
<v Speaker 2>rock that exists, and it stands the test of time.

0:39:38.040 --> 0:39:40.640
<v Speaker 2>But a lot of take the you know, the solos out,

0:39:40.680 --> 0:39:43.760
<v Speaker 2>a lot of like Malcolm's parts, you know Angus' stuff.

0:39:43.760 --> 0:39:46.000
<v Speaker 2>He's a shredder to a kind of a blues like

0:39:46.080 --> 0:39:51.000
<v Speaker 2>he's very very fluent blues player. But Malcolm's parts are

0:39:51.040 --> 0:39:54.239
<v Speaker 2>pretty simple to play. It's just great songwriting. So there's

0:39:54.360 --> 0:39:58.560
<v Speaker 2>there's all these examples of great bands and great kind

0:39:58.560 --> 0:40:02.479
<v Speaker 2>of timeless hard rock music that's really relatively simple to play.

0:40:02.560 --> 0:40:04.640
<v Speaker 2>The Cult is the same way. I think I think

0:40:04.640 --> 0:40:06.840
<v Speaker 2>I mentioned that in the book. The Cult Electric is

0:40:06.880 --> 0:40:09.440
<v Speaker 2>like one of the first records I could play, you know,

0:40:09.640 --> 0:40:12.319
<v Speaker 2>from song one all the way to the end and

0:40:12.360 --> 0:40:16.640
<v Speaker 2>just play along to it. So I just started playing

0:40:16.680 --> 0:40:18.880
<v Speaker 2>along to what I could play, and then as my

0:40:19.000 --> 0:40:23.360
<v Speaker 2>tastes evolved, I got more and my skill set evolved.

0:40:23.360 --> 0:40:27.000
<v Speaker 2>I got into meggot Eth and Metallica because I was

0:40:27.040 --> 0:40:30.080
<v Speaker 2>an eighth ninth tenth grade kid, and that's what eighth

0:40:30.120 --> 0:40:34.640
<v Speaker 2>nineteenth grade kids listened to, you know. And but for me,

0:40:35.040 --> 0:40:38.840
<v Speaker 2>my ability was growing and in a way that I

0:40:38.840 --> 0:40:42.200
<v Speaker 2>could start to match that playing as well. So it

0:40:42.320 --> 0:40:45.200
<v Speaker 2>was just all kind of fueling each other. As I

0:40:45.280 --> 0:40:49.000
<v Speaker 2>became able to be more fluent on the instrument and

0:40:49.160 --> 0:40:52.719
<v Speaker 2>was getting into music that was more technical, those two

0:40:52.760 --> 0:40:56.040
<v Speaker 2>things kind of it created the synergy which really carried

0:40:56.080 --> 0:41:01.320
<v Speaker 2>me to thrash metal, which it can be very technically proficient,

0:41:01.440 --> 0:41:05.120
<v Speaker 2>technically demanding music, but also has this cool kind of

0:41:05.200 --> 0:41:10.520
<v Speaker 2>dark and high energy, powerful thing that was really vital

0:41:10.600 --> 0:41:13.000
<v Speaker 2>for me as a teenage guitar player. Teenage kid.

0:41:13.840 --> 0:41:16.440
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you have a long story about a battle of

0:41:16.480 --> 0:41:19.640
<v Speaker 1>the bands, which is certainly more serious than the battles

0:41:19.680 --> 0:41:22.080
<v Speaker 1>of the band that I grew up with that you

0:41:22.080 --> 0:41:25.120
<v Speaker 1>had to basically qualify. Then there was a different school.

0:41:25.520 --> 0:41:28.520
<v Speaker 1>You won once, then you were with a different band.

0:41:28.560 --> 0:41:30.960
<v Speaker 1>You thought they were better and you didn't win, but

0:41:31.000 --> 0:41:34.920
<v Speaker 1>you still knew you were best. What was that experience like?

0:41:34.960 --> 0:41:37.160
<v Speaker 1>And what music were you playing? In the battles of

0:41:37.200 --> 0:41:40.200
<v Speaker 1>the band?

0:41:40.280 --> 0:41:42.920
<v Speaker 2>That battle of the band, we asked what the experience

0:41:43.040 --> 0:41:47.880
<v Speaker 2>is like? It was the pinnacle for me and my

0:41:48.320 --> 0:41:52.360
<v Speaker 2>vision of where we existed in this small town world

0:41:52.400 --> 0:41:57.880
<v Speaker 2>of music. To play and to win Stockwood it was

0:41:57.920 --> 0:42:01.839
<v Speaker 2>called you didn't get much better in Williamsburg, Virginia if

0:42:01.880 --> 0:42:04.560
<v Speaker 2>you were a rock band. You know, that was that

0:42:04.640 --> 0:42:08.520
<v Speaker 2>was the heights. So it was a big deal. I

0:42:08.520 --> 0:42:10.600
<v Speaker 2>couldn't wait to do that every year, and we did

0:42:10.600 --> 0:42:14.640
<v Speaker 2>it for a number of years. What kind of music

0:42:14.680 --> 0:42:18.440
<v Speaker 2>we were playing? We were playing both. You know, you

0:42:18.440 --> 0:42:21.400
<v Speaker 2>talk about two different bands, and they weren't all that dissimilar.

0:42:21.840 --> 0:42:23.640
<v Speaker 2>One was but a little better than the other one.

0:42:24.560 --> 0:42:27.919
<v Speaker 2>But we were playing a blend of sort of older

0:42:28.000 --> 0:42:31.919
<v Speaker 2>heavy metal Black Sabbath and we played the first band.

0:42:32.040 --> 0:42:33.960
<v Speaker 2>We played Hand of Doune by Black Sabbath, and we

0:42:33.960 --> 0:42:37.319
<v Speaker 2>played Crazy Train and I think we did some like

0:42:37.400 --> 0:42:39.680
<v Speaker 2>the Motley Crue version of smoking in the Boys Room

0:42:39.719 --> 0:42:43.200
<v Speaker 2>and that kind of stuff. I think we did an

0:42:43.200 --> 0:42:46.359
<v Speaker 2>our main song. And then the second band, which was

0:42:46.560 --> 0:42:49.440
<v Speaker 2>sort of a spin off of the first one was

0:42:49.480 --> 0:42:51.600
<v Speaker 2>doing similar stuff but a little more, a little more

0:42:51.640 --> 0:42:54.600
<v Speaker 2>thrashboid and I think Megadeth and Metallica and that kind

0:42:54.600 --> 0:42:54.839
<v Speaker 2>of thing.

0:42:55.480 --> 0:42:59.400
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you know you're in your first band, guys, graduate,

0:42:59.520 --> 0:43:02.520
<v Speaker 1>they moved way before we go to college. There's another

0:43:02.560 --> 0:43:07.840
<v Speaker 1>incarnation of one of these bands, and ultimately you're left out. Okay,

0:43:08.360 --> 0:43:11.840
<v Speaker 1>the band is formed. You know that could be heartbreaking.

0:43:12.000 --> 0:43:14.280
<v Speaker 1>You sort of pass over it there. Well, there really

0:43:14.320 --> 0:43:16.960
<v Speaker 1>wasn't a place for me. What was he experienced like

0:43:17.000 --> 0:43:18.160
<v Speaker 1>when it actually happened.

0:43:18.760 --> 0:43:22.439
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I was devastated. You're you're talking about this now

0:43:22.520 --> 0:43:25.160
<v Speaker 2>I'm in college and in the book, I sort of,

0:43:26.280 --> 0:43:29.279
<v Speaker 2>as you're doing, I string together this this story of

0:43:29.320 --> 0:43:31.839
<v Speaker 2>these different bands that I was, you know, bouncing from

0:43:31.880 --> 0:43:34.520
<v Speaker 2>one and forming another and doing this, and one of

0:43:34.600 --> 0:43:38.000
<v Speaker 2>them turned into this very kind of noise. By now

0:43:38.080 --> 0:43:42.000
<v Speaker 2>we're in the nineties and the metal thing, the head

0:43:42.000 --> 0:43:44.960
<v Speaker 2>bangers ball era kind of metal thing is falling out

0:43:44.960 --> 0:43:48.880
<v Speaker 2>of favor, and now it's all about underground and grunge

0:43:48.960 --> 0:43:53.600
<v Speaker 2>and punk, and so there was this and I followed

0:43:53.680 --> 0:43:55.480
<v Speaker 2>right along through all that stuff, and it was really

0:43:55.560 --> 0:43:58.080
<v Speaker 2>interesting for me to look back on because I knew

0:43:59.719 --> 0:44:02.520
<v Speaker 2>I did I didn't know, but I sort of intuitively

0:44:02.800 --> 0:44:04.960
<v Speaker 2>unlearned a lot of what I had learned. You know,

0:44:05.160 --> 0:44:08.080
<v Speaker 2>you and I were just talking about the technical aspect

0:44:08.080 --> 0:44:10.879
<v Speaker 2>of metal and that's where I came from. But by

0:44:10.920 --> 0:44:14.480
<v Speaker 2>the time I got to Richmond and the culture around

0:44:14.560 --> 0:44:18.440
<v Speaker 2>rock music was changing, and you know, with grunge and

0:44:19.160 --> 0:44:22.840
<v Speaker 2>Nirvana and the success of bands like Fugazi and Sonic

0:44:22.880 --> 0:44:24.520
<v Speaker 2>Youth and that kind of stuff that was it was

0:44:24.640 --> 0:44:30.320
<v Speaker 2>very noisy and not frankly as technical or often as musical,

0:44:31.560 --> 0:44:34.400
<v Speaker 2>but it had this passion and this energy that was

0:44:34.440 --> 0:44:37.680
<v Speaker 2>just really attractive about it. So for me as a player,

0:44:37.760 --> 0:44:40.960
<v Speaker 2>I almost unlearned a lot of what I had learned

0:44:40.960 --> 0:44:43.759
<v Speaker 2>how to do in that metal stuff. So here we

0:44:43.800 --> 0:44:45.840
<v Speaker 2>find ourselves now in the early nineties, and me and

0:44:45.840 --> 0:44:47.520
<v Speaker 2>my friends are putting this band together and it's this

0:44:47.760 --> 0:44:52.799
<v Speaker 2>very feedback e noise, scapy, sonic youth y kind of thing.

0:44:53.320 --> 0:44:59.400
<v Speaker 2>And despite my efforts to unlearn my uh you know,

0:44:59.600 --> 0:45:02.080
<v Speaker 2>technical goal approach to as a player, I'm not the

0:45:02.080 --> 0:45:04.360
<v Speaker 2>most technical player, but in that room, I was the

0:45:04.400 --> 0:45:07.400
<v Speaker 2>most technical player, and it, uh, you know, it just

0:45:07.400 --> 0:45:09.360
<v Speaker 2>didn't work out. I think I was making it sound

0:45:09.440 --> 0:45:12.319
<v Speaker 2>a little too clean, So I was left out. And

0:45:12.360 --> 0:45:14.440
<v Speaker 2>they went on to do some and these are every

0:45:14.480 --> 0:45:15.879
<v Speaker 2>one of those guys are still a really good friend

0:45:15.880 --> 0:45:18.080
<v Speaker 2>of mine. But they went on to do some really

0:45:18.160 --> 0:45:20.520
<v Speaker 2>cool stuff in that time and did some touring and

0:45:20.560 --> 0:45:24.520
<v Speaker 2>did some made a lot of noise literally and figuratively

0:45:24.560 --> 0:45:27.319
<v Speaker 2>in that scene, and I was left out. And that

0:45:27.440 --> 0:45:31.080
<v Speaker 2>was That was tough for me to take because even

0:45:31.120 --> 0:45:33.520
<v Speaker 2>outside of music, I had to learn a life lesson,

0:45:33.560 --> 0:45:39.240
<v Speaker 2>which was you have to root for your friends, even

0:45:39.280 --> 0:45:42.439
<v Speaker 2>when they're doing what you wish you were doing.

0:45:50.440 --> 0:45:55.080
<v Speaker 1>Okay, there's a lot of ignorance in the North about

0:45:55.120 --> 0:45:58.840
<v Speaker 1>the South, not as much as there used to be. People,

0:45:59.080 --> 0:46:03.080
<v Speaker 1>you know, think of the South. They think in Nashville.

0:46:03.480 --> 0:46:06.239
<v Speaker 1>Richmond the way you painted in the book, it was

0:46:06.280 --> 0:46:10.120
<v Speaker 1>like an epicenter of punk music. Tell us about Richmond

0:46:10.120 --> 0:46:15.160
<v Speaker 1>at that time. In Richmond today, I'm.

0:46:15.000 --> 0:46:19.000
<v Speaker 2>Happy to I have so much love for this city.

0:46:19.120 --> 0:46:22.759
<v Speaker 2>I'm still here a little ways outside, I'm back in

0:46:22.800 --> 0:46:25.279
<v Speaker 2>the woods, but I'm still I'm still a stones throat

0:46:25.320 --> 0:46:27.719
<v Speaker 2>from Richmond, and I intend to stay that way. I

0:46:27.760 --> 0:46:30.600
<v Speaker 2>love I love our city, I love our music scene.

0:46:31.840 --> 0:46:36.000
<v Speaker 2>As I told you, earlier there because VCU has such

0:46:36.040 --> 0:46:42.760
<v Speaker 2>a strong art school, it attracts people from the region

0:46:43.920 --> 0:46:51.439
<v Speaker 2>creative minds, and you know, it attracts artists, it attracts musicians, sculptors,

0:46:52.040 --> 0:46:56.480
<v Speaker 2>theater people all sort of flock to Richmond because of VCU,

0:46:57.000 --> 0:46:59.040
<v Speaker 2>And you know, I was a part of that during

0:46:59.080 --> 0:47:03.239
<v Speaker 2>that time. So Richmond had this interesting thing in the

0:47:03.360 --> 0:47:06.960
<v Speaker 2>nineties where you know, and in the nineties it wasn't

0:47:07.160 --> 0:47:09.960
<v Speaker 2>unique just to Richmond, but in the nineties, different cities

0:47:09.960 --> 0:47:13.800
<v Speaker 2>had different sounds. So and back then, and you'll remember

0:47:13.840 --> 0:47:16.760
<v Speaker 2>this Bob. Back then, you could say a band sounded

0:47:16.800 --> 0:47:20.000
<v Speaker 2>like they were from Minneapolis, or they sounded like they

0:47:20.000 --> 0:47:22.000
<v Speaker 2>were from Austin, or they sounded like they were from

0:47:22.040 --> 0:47:24.680
<v Speaker 2>New York, or they sounded like they were from Chicago.

0:47:25.760 --> 0:47:29.040
<v Speaker 2>And you would almost ask, as a music fan, or

0:47:29.040 --> 0:47:32.320
<v Speaker 2>as someone that was into particularly underground music, you would hey,

0:47:32.400 --> 0:47:35.040
<v Speaker 2>have you heard so and so? No, where are they from?

0:47:35.520 --> 0:47:36.960
<v Speaker 2>And that I still do that. I'll be like, where

0:47:36.960 --> 0:47:39.160
<v Speaker 2>are they from? And it sort of matters less now,

0:47:39.760 --> 0:47:42.239
<v Speaker 2>but it's just kind of intuitive question because where they're

0:47:42.239 --> 0:47:44.520
<v Speaker 2>from could give you an idea what they might be doing.

0:47:44.600 --> 0:47:51.360
<v Speaker 2>You know, So Richmond's personality in that sense was pretty

0:47:51.440 --> 0:47:56.600
<v Speaker 2>unique in that there was a real angular kind of

0:47:56.600 --> 0:48:02.600
<v Speaker 2>off time approached, a lot of just odd time signatures,

0:48:02.640 --> 0:48:08.120
<v Speaker 2>a lot of instrumental bands, a lot of like influence

0:48:08.160 --> 0:48:10.600
<v Speaker 2>from bands like Wire, you know, the UK band, this

0:48:10.680 --> 0:48:14.520
<v Speaker 2>real sort of brittle, abrasive kind of thing that wasn't

0:48:14.560 --> 0:48:17.960
<v Speaker 2>quite punk rock, but it was real raw and real

0:48:18.000 --> 0:48:21.759
<v Speaker 2>stripped down. And Richmond would blend that with sort of

0:48:21.800 --> 0:48:26.799
<v Speaker 2>this sort of pseudo psychedelic component and it was just

0:48:26.840 --> 0:48:31.240
<v Speaker 2>a real artsy and real abrasive version of underground punk

0:48:31.280 --> 0:48:35.400
<v Speaker 2>and hard rock, and that in time sort of evolved

0:48:35.440 --> 0:48:40.040
<v Speaker 2>and blended with some metal bands, so it created bands

0:48:40.560 --> 0:48:46.000
<v Speaker 2>like Breadwinner, who is a sort of underground legendary instrumental

0:48:46.000 --> 0:48:49.040
<v Speaker 2>band from Richmond, put out a record on Merge Records,

0:48:49.360 --> 0:48:52.759
<v Speaker 2>and that was just absolutely, like so important to me.

0:48:53.480 --> 0:48:55.560
<v Speaker 2>Everything on that record there wouldn't have There was barely

0:48:55.560 --> 0:48:57.200
<v Speaker 2>a vocal on the record in it. I would just

0:48:57.280 --> 0:48:59.640
<v Speaker 2>listen to it like like like someone who listened to

0:48:59.640 --> 0:49:01.680
<v Speaker 2>their favor pop song that would just listen to it

0:49:01.719 --> 0:49:05.680
<v Speaker 2>over and over, and the grooves the way there were grooves,

0:49:05.719 --> 0:49:08.960
<v Speaker 2>but that weren't straight grooves. It would sound like you know,

0:49:09.080 --> 0:49:11.839
<v Speaker 2>it sort of to me sonically, like if you rolled

0:49:11.880 --> 0:49:14.920
<v Speaker 2>an egg down a hill, it had just like this

0:49:14.920 --> 0:49:17.920
<v Speaker 2>this like very it was had this very loping quality,

0:49:17.960 --> 0:49:23.000
<v Speaker 2>but it was consistent, consistently stretched out and consistently off.

0:49:23.160 --> 0:49:24.799
<v Speaker 2>Or if you did the same thing and just and

0:49:24.840 --> 0:49:27.440
<v Speaker 2>like pushed a box, it would like it rolls and

0:49:27.480 --> 0:49:29.440
<v Speaker 2>then it stops, and then it rolls and it stops,

0:49:29.480 --> 0:49:33.200
<v Speaker 2>and it's very you know, predictable. But at the same time,

0:49:33.600 --> 0:49:38.640
<v Speaker 2>off time, there's another band called slang Lous that did

0:49:38.680 --> 0:49:43.600
<v Speaker 2>the same thing but then blended that approach with this

0:49:43.680 --> 0:49:51.200
<v Speaker 2>sort of dark, kind of theatrical vocal element that wasn't

0:49:51.239 --> 0:49:56.520
<v Speaker 2>really metal, but it was really dark and really kind

0:49:56.560 --> 0:50:02.520
<v Speaker 2>of obscure but strangely intellectual lyrics, sort of poetry dark

0:50:02.560 --> 0:50:07.560
<v Speaker 2>poetry lyrics. And these were just local bands, and these

0:50:07.560 --> 0:50:10.040
<v Speaker 2>were the bands that me and my friends wanted to be.

0:50:10.239 --> 0:50:16.080
<v Speaker 2>Like we loved the Melvins, we loved Slayer, but we

0:50:16.280 --> 0:50:18.560
<v Speaker 2>really wanted to be like slang Laws, who were just

0:50:18.600 --> 0:50:21.160
<v Speaker 2>down the street and probably playing a party on Friday

0:50:21.239 --> 0:50:24.239
<v Speaker 2>night or at the small bar on Saturday night. And

0:50:24.480 --> 0:50:29.360
<v Speaker 2>you know, so it became this very It was insular

0:50:29.400 --> 0:50:32.719
<v Speaker 2>in the sense is that all the bands influenced each

0:50:32.719 --> 0:50:37.120
<v Speaker 2>other more than outside bands influenced us. And Lamb of

0:50:37.160 --> 0:50:40.279
<v Speaker 2>God started as a band called burn the Priest and

0:50:40.280 --> 0:50:42.360
<v Speaker 2>we were an instrumental band when we were Burned the Priest,

0:50:42.440 --> 0:50:45.839
<v Speaker 2>and then we added a singer and then eventually changed

0:50:45.840 --> 0:50:47.640
<v Speaker 2>the name the Lamb of God. But what Burned the

0:50:47.640 --> 0:50:50.720
<v Speaker 2>Priest started out as was trying to be a little

0:50:50.760 --> 0:50:54.879
<v Speaker 2>more extreme version of Breadwinner or slang laws.

0:50:56.120 --> 0:50:59.359
<v Speaker 1>What was the dream you know in the area you're

0:50:59.360 --> 0:51:04.160
<v Speaker 1>talking about before they run DGC and Nirvana was independent

0:51:04.239 --> 0:51:07.800
<v Speaker 1>You mentioned Merge, etc. In the nineties, even though on

0:51:08.520 --> 0:51:13.279
<v Speaker 1>MTV goes more hip hop, there's a whole burgeoning independent

0:51:13.400 --> 0:51:16.759
<v Speaker 1>rock scene. So did everybody say we're just doing what

0:51:16.800 --> 0:51:18.520
<v Speaker 1>we're doing, or they say, I want to go to LA,

0:51:18.600 --> 0:51:20.440
<v Speaker 1>I want to get a major label deal, I want

0:51:20.440 --> 0:51:24.440
<v Speaker 1>to conquer the world. What was the mindset well for us.

0:51:25.960 --> 0:51:27.480
<v Speaker 2>Burn the Preeze and not only.

0:51:27.320 --> 0:51:29.520
<v Speaker 1>You, but the other rack you talk about, Red Winter.

0:51:29.840 --> 0:51:33.040
<v Speaker 1>There's a whole scene in Richmond. Was everybody happy where

0:51:33.080 --> 0:51:38.839
<v Speaker 1>they were or did people have a desire to be nationwide?

0:51:40.160 --> 0:51:43.560
<v Speaker 2>I think in that time from what I could tell

0:51:43.600 --> 0:51:45.480
<v Speaker 2>in the circles that I was in in the circles

0:51:45.520 --> 0:51:47.840
<v Speaker 2>I was playing in. The dream was to get in

0:51:47.880 --> 0:51:53.280
<v Speaker 2>a van and to go play shows to thirty forty

0:51:53.280 --> 0:51:56.080
<v Speaker 2>people in a basement or maybe in a bar, and

0:51:56.120 --> 0:51:58.919
<v Speaker 2>then do that for a month, and if you came

0:51:58.960 --> 0:52:02.759
<v Speaker 2>home with a couple hundred bucks, that was you were

0:52:02.800 --> 0:52:07.480
<v Speaker 2>a rock star. You know. I think the dream in

0:52:07.520 --> 0:52:11.040
<v Speaker 2>a lot of those scenes was just it was this beautiful,

0:52:12.160 --> 0:52:16.400
<v Speaker 2>mindful approach to creating music that was just to do

0:52:16.520 --> 0:52:22.560
<v Speaker 2>it because it felt urgent, and it felt authentic, and

0:52:22.600 --> 0:52:28.200
<v Speaker 2>it felt natural to do that. There's I'm sure still

0:52:28.600 --> 0:52:31.759
<v Speaker 2>people that that. I mean, that's what art is, right.

0:52:31.880 --> 0:52:34.160
<v Speaker 2>I really think any form of art is really that

0:52:34.239 --> 0:52:38.719
<v Speaker 2>at its core, if it's really art, And and so

0:52:39.000 --> 0:52:44.600
<v Speaker 2>I think that still happens all the time, you know.

0:52:44.760 --> 0:52:46.239
<v Speaker 2>And I don't know that we're going to get into

0:52:46.280 --> 0:52:48.799
<v Speaker 2>this structured position of what the music world is like

0:52:48.840 --> 0:52:50.880
<v Speaker 2>now versus what it was like in the mid nineties,

0:52:50.920 --> 0:52:54.359
<v Speaker 2>but that that was the dream for us for sure.

0:52:55.920 --> 0:52:58.560
<v Speaker 1>So how hard was it to leave Richmond in your

0:52:58.640 --> 0:53:00.920
<v Speaker 1>music advance there and go to.

0:53:00.920 --> 0:53:08.120
<v Speaker 2>Chicago, Well, it was it was difficult. That the timeframes

0:53:08.160 --> 0:53:10.800
<v Speaker 2>in terms of what you and I are talking about

0:53:10.880 --> 0:53:13.560
<v Speaker 2>are darting around a little bit. When I left Richmond

0:53:14.320 --> 0:53:18.279
<v Speaker 2>to go to Chicago, Burn the Priest had started, but

0:53:18.280 --> 0:53:20.200
<v Speaker 2>we weren't really doing a whole lot, and I could

0:53:20.239 --> 0:53:22.880
<v Speaker 2>tell it was really cool, but I just had bigger

0:53:22.920 --> 0:53:25.880
<v Speaker 2>sights on wanting to get into a bigger city and

0:53:27.840 --> 0:53:30.479
<v Speaker 2>have a bigger kind of pool of people to pick

0:53:30.520 --> 0:53:33.799
<v Speaker 2>from to play with. When I went up there. For

0:53:33.800 --> 0:53:35.839
<v Speaker 2>a couple of years, I've never really got much going

0:53:35.880 --> 0:53:38.600
<v Speaker 2>on up there, and Burn the Priest was still kind

0:53:38.600 --> 0:53:42.120
<v Speaker 2>of bubbling here and starting to drop people and starting

0:53:42.120 --> 0:53:43.680
<v Speaker 2>to go up to Philly and play shows, and I

0:53:43.719 --> 0:53:44.920
<v Speaker 2>really wanted to be a part of it, so I

0:53:44.960 --> 0:53:49.279
<v Speaker 2>came back. But leaving Richmond it was a weird thing

0:53:49.320 --> 0:53:51.319
<v Speaker 2>because it was it was a lesson for me in

0:53:51.400 --> 0:53:53.560
<v Speaker 2>terms of, like, you don't really know what you got

0:53:53.640 --> 0:53:56.640
<v Speaker 2>until it's gone. Because I while I can sit here

0:53:56.640 --> 0:54:00.560
<v Speaker 2>and talk about how essential and awesome Richmond was and

0:54:00.600 --> 0:54:02.440
<v Speaker 2>it was all these things, I knew it was great

0:54:02.760 --> 0:54:05.799
<v Speaker 2>to me. If I went somewhere bigger and somewhere more

0:54:07.400 --> 0:54:10.319
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, big city, more more happening, then it

0:54:10.400 --> 0:54:12.440
<v Speaker 2>was gonna be even better. And what I learned was

0:54:12.480 --> 0:54:15.359
<v Speaker 2>bigger isn't necessarily better, And maybe what we had going

0:54:15.400 --> 0:54:17.720
<v Speaker 2>on here was cooler.

0:54:19.000 --> 0:54:22.040
<v Speaker 1>I think it was, Okay, when you leave Chicago to

0:54:22.080 --> 0:54:26.160
<v Speaker 1>go back to Richmond, how much of it is you've

0:54:26.200 --> 0:54:28.799
<v Speaker 1>burned out on Chicago, burned out on graduate school, and

0:54:28.840 --> 0:54:30.799
<v Speaker 1>how much of it is I gotta go back and

0:54:30.840 --> 0:54:31.920
<v Speaker 1>play with burn the Priests.

0:54:35.120 --> 0:54:37.280
<v Speaker 2>It was one hundred percent of one and one hundred

0:54:37.280 --> 0:54:39.879
<v Speaker 2>percent of other of the other. I think I would

0:54:39.920 --> 0:54:41.919
<v Speaker 2>have gone back to Richmond if Burned the Priests weren't

0:54:41.920 --> 0:54:44.200
<v Speaker 2>even there. I was just ready to come back to

0:54:44.280 --> 0:54:48.040
<v Speaker 2>Richmond and go home. But I was also just dying

0:54:48.080 --> 0:54:53.240
<v Speaker 2>to get back with those guys, because I just I

0:54:53.400 --> 0:54:55.279
<v Speaker 2>the whole time I was in Chicago, I was kind

0:54:55.320 --> 0:54:59.759
<v Speaker 2>of mourning leaving that because it felt so fulfilling, the

0:55:00.040 --> 0:55:02.880
<v Speaker 2>only be with a group of guys that I just

0:55:02.960 --> 0:55:05.640
<v Speaker 2>could felt like I could do no wrong with. And

0:55:05.760 --> 0:55:07.720
<v Speaker 2>just as soon as that came together, I had already

0:55:07.719 --> 0:55:10.400
<v Speaker 2>had plans to split, and so I was just following

0:55:10.400 --> 0:55:12.160
<v Speaker 2>through with what I had been planning on doing. Anyway,

0:55:12.760 --> 0:55:17.680
<v Speaker 2>So I think I think there was no angle that

0:55:18.040 --> 0:55:19.360
<v Speaker 2>had me staying in Chicago.

0:55:19.800 --> 0:55:23.160
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you say you go back to Richmond, the band

0:55:23.719 --> 0:55:27.680
<v Speaker 1>welcomes you with open arms. My experience in life is

0:55:27.800 --> 0:55:31.840
<v Speaker 1>usually not that way you leave, they continue without you,

0:55:32.920 --> 0:55:34.400
<v Speaker 1>if they lay you back at all, there are a

0:55:34.480 --> 0:55:37.640
<v Speaker 1>number of hurdles, So tell me about that.

0:55:38.520 --> 0:55:43.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, I think it speaks to just how

0:55:43.320 --> 0:55:47.040
<v Speaker 2>natural it was and how correct my part of that

0:55:47.160 --> 0:55:52.640
<v Speaker 2>equation fit. There was a new guitar player that had

0:55:52.680 --> 0:55:54.400
<v Speaker 2>come in, and so that was a little bit of

0:55:54.400 --> 0:55:56.799
<v Speaker 2>a hurdle because he's like, wait, who's this guy that

0:55:56.880 --> 0:56:00.319
<v Speaker 2>I don't really even know coming back to reach this

0:56:00.400 --> 0:56:02.160
<v Speaker 2>band that I've never been in a band with him with?

0:56:02.440 --> 0:56:04.960
<v Speaker 2>But we hung out for a day or two and

0:56:05.000 --> 0:56:07.960
<v Speaker 2>it had a completely had a great understanding, and he's

0:56:08.120 --> 0:56:11.160
<v Speaker 2>he's still a friend. I've talked to him recently, and

0:56:11.200 --> 0:56:13.959
<v Speaker 2>they had had They had had Randy, our singer, join

0:56:15.200 --> 0:56:17.200
<v Speaker 2>and Randy and I knew of each other. We weren't

0:56:17.200 --> 0:56:21.080
<v Speaker 2>really friends, but Randy, Randy and I talk about this.

0:56:21.560 --> 0:56:24.040
<v Speaker 2>I talk about this in the book too. Randy had this.

0:56:24.200 --> 0:56:25.719
<v Speaker 2>He was a punk rocker. He didn't have anything to

0:56:25.800 --> 0:56:26.919
<v Speaker 2>do with the metal at all. He was a punk

0:56:27.000 --> 0:56:32.720
<v Speaker 2>rocker in a metal band, and he had this understanding

0:56:33.080 --> 0:56:37.640
<v Speaker 2>of all right, well, if you're in our band now,

0:56:37.960 --> 0:56:40.879
<v Speaker 2>then you're in our band, and it's right or die,

0:56:40.920 --> 0:56:43.239
<v Speaker 2>And that was just the way he worked. I think

0:56:43.280 --> 0:56:45.760
<v Speaker 2>he might have been like that with anybody. It certainly

0:56:45.800 --> 0:56:47.920
<v Speaker 2>given him that chance, but it was just he was

0:56:47.920 --> 0:56:52.920
<v Speaker 2>of the mindset of like, okay, well then then then

0:56:52.960 --> 0:56:55.640
<v Speaker 2>we're part of the same tribe. Let's go, let's I'm

0:56:55.680 --> 0:56:58.360
<v Speaker 2>all in okay for years.

0:56:58.640 --> 0:57:02.560
<v Speaker 1>You go back to Richmond, he dropped out of graduate school.

0:57:02.880 --> 0:57:06.239
<v Speaker 1>But you're working as a roofer, your work in construction,

0:57:06.360 --> 0:57:10.440
<v Speaker 1>while you're playing music, and you're getting older. Is there

0:57:10.440 --> 0:57:13.279
<v Speaker 1>any part of you that says, shit, you know, I

0:57:13.320 --> 0:57:15.960
<v Speaker 1>should have a career, I should have something more serious

0:57:16.040 --> 0:57:16.280
<v Speaker 1>than this.

0:57:17.280 --> 0:57:19.720
<v Speaker 2>Yes, there is, And you know you and I were

0:57:19.760 --> 0:57:23.320
<v Speaker 2>touching on this earlier. There's all the while this component.

0:57:23.400 --> 0:57:27.640
<v Speaker 2>Now I'm in my mid twenties, approaching the later twenties,

0:57:28.920 --> 0:57:30.960
<v Speaker 2>people I know are starting to have kids and get married,

0:57:31.360 --> 0:57:36.600
<v Speaker 2>and I'm riding around in a vand playing just kind

0:57:36.600 --> 0:57:41.400
<v Speaker 2>of screamy heavy metal, punk rock hybrid, playing warehouses in Philly.

0:57:42.800 --> 0:57:44.600
<v Speaker 2>So there is this voice in the back of my

0:57:44.680 --> 0:57:47.920
<v Speaker 2>head saying, you know, you need to get serious about something.

0:57:48.200 --> 0:57:50.959
<v Speaker 2>You need to you need to get your ack together,

0:57:51.000 --> 0:57:55.640
<v Speaker 2>you need to grow up. And again, you know I

0:57:55.680 --> 0:57:59.520
<v Speaker 2>talked about the firefighter situation, that's there's a cut all

0:57:59.520 --> 0:58:01.440
<v Speaker 2>my hair off and when applied with the fire department.

0:58:01.440 --> 0:58:07.400
<v Speaker 2>But pretty quickly into that process, just came to this conclusion,

0:58:07.680 --> 0:58:11.120
<v Speaker 2>this this self knowledge of It's just I'm never gonna

0:58:11.160 --> 0:58:14.680
<v Speaker 2>be happy unless I'm just playing guitar. So I guess

0:58:14.720 --> 0:58:18.400
<v Speaker 2>I'm just gonna be the broke guitar player guy forever.

0:58:18.640 --> 0:58:21.280
<v Speaker 2>And I found acceptance around that.

0:58:22.000 --> 0:58:25.880
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So the band is offered a deal from these

0:58:25.920 --> 0:58:28.560
<v Speaker 1>guys who work for Middle Blade with a new label.

0:58:29.920 --> 0:58:33.880
<v Speaker 1>You know, conventionally people say, oh I'm signed, We're on

0:58:33.960 --> 0:58:37.160
<v Speaker 1>the way, We're on the road. What was going through

0:58:37.200 --> 0:58:39.160
<v Speaker 1>your head? And the band said when that came.

0:58:39.040 --> 0:58:43.680
<v Speaker 2>Together, oh well yeah. So the deal with Prosthetic Records

0:58:44.280 --> 0:58:50.200
<v Speaker 2>was such a small deal. It wasn't like the movie

0:58:50.240 --> 0:58:52.600
<v Speaker 2>deal where you know, we got it, we finally made it,

0:58:52.600 --> 0:58:54.480
<v Speaker 2>we got a big record deal. It wasn't that at all.

0:58:54.520 --> 0:58:58.480
<v Speaker 2>These These were guys that were gonna give us a

0:58:58.520 --> 0:59:02.520
<v Speaker 2>couple thousand bucks made to go put together a recording.

0:59:02.560 --> 0:59:04.800
<v Speaker 2>And then they then they had the resources and the

0:59:04.800 --> 0:59:08.120
<v Speaker 2>connections and the inroads with which to release that recording

0:59:08.200 --> 0:59:11.439
<v Speaker 2>and hire a publicist for it. And so they were

0:59:11.720 --> 0:59:16.280
<v Speaker 2>completely honest and realistic about their presentation with that, which is,

0:59:16.400 --> 0:59:19.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, no one's quitting a job. We're just going

0:59:19.680 --> 0:59:24.000
<v Speaker 2>to get this record in reviewed in magazines and it's

0:59:24.000 --> 0:59:25.640
<v Speaker 2>going to get in some stores, and it's going to

0:59:25.720 --> 0:59:28.280
<v Speaker 2>get it's you know, we're going to help you get noticed.

0:59:28.440 --> 0:59:31.760
<v Speaker 2>And that's what they did and it was a great relationship,

0:59:31.760 --> 0:59:33.680
<v Speaker 2>and then we went on to do a second record

0:59:33.680 --> 0:59:38.840
<v Speaker 2>with them as the Palaces burned, and based on the

0:59:38.840 --> 0:59:41.120
<v Speaker 2>reaction that the first record got, we had a little

0:59:41.120 --> 0:59:43.120
<v Speaker 2>bit more money to work with, and we had, you know,

0:59:43.160 --> 0:59:46.240
<v Speaker 2>more resources available to us, and we made some videos

0:59:46.280 --> 0:59:48.800
<v Speaker 2>that were a couple of them. Want in particular was

0:59:48.840 --> 0:59:53.400
<v Speaker 2>really cool, and it just all lined up with the

0:59:53.440 --> 0:59:57.280
<v Speaker 2>way MTV was promoting heavy metal at the time and

0:59:57.480 --> 1:00:01.680
<v Speaker 2>the platform they had re established with Headbanger. All of

1:00:01.720 --> 1:00:03.880
<v Speaker 2>these things sort of syncd up for us time wise,

1:00:04.640 --> 1:00:07.080
<v Speaker 2>and we made the right video for the right song

1:00:07.160 --> 1:00:08.880
<v Speaker 2>at the right time, and got it on the right

1:00:08.880 --> 1:00:12.480
<v Speaker 2>platform and had the right people behind it. That really

1:00:12.520 --> 1:00:16.960
<v Speaker 2>got us noticed, and that ultimately is what sort of

1:00:17.000 --> 1:00:18.840
<v Speaker 2>blew the band up to the point where we started

1:00:18.880 --> 1:00:21.320
<v Speaker 2>getting looked at by major labels.

1:00:21.440 --> 1:00:24.360
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you talk about going to Massachusetts to cut this

1:00:24.520 --> 1:00:28.720
<v Speaker 1>record first record. In the second record too, there's a

1:00:28.720 --> 1:00:34.800
<v Speaker 1>lot of talk about the travel, the bands, etc. I

1:00:34.920 --> 1:00:38.080
<v Speaker 1>read that and I say, it's so fucking dangerous. People

1:00:38.120 --> 1:00:42.400
<v Speaker 1>aren't wearing seatbelts, things aren't maintained, You got ball tires.

1:00:43.160 --> 1:00:46.040
<v Speaker 1>Were you thinking about that at all? And were there

1:00:46.080 --> 1:00:47.960
<v Speaker 1>any bad experiences?

1:00:48.480 --> 1:00:54.560
<v Speaker 2>Oh? Man, I don't think we were thinking about that

1:00:54.720 --> 1:00:57.120
<v Speaker 2>much at all. I think we knew that if, you know,

1:00:57.560 --> 1:01:00.920
<v Speaker 2>somebody fell asleep driving and this thing flipped over, that

1:01:01.040 --> 1:01:04.520
<v Speaker 2>was gonna be the end of it, you know. But

1:01:06.240 --> 1:01:08.880
<v Speaker 2>I just don't think we worried about that kind of thing.

1:01:08.920 --> 1:01:17.040
<v Speaker 2>I think there was a real, just a real kind

1:01:17.120 --> 1:01:20.480
<v Speaker 2>of caution to the wind kind of thing. And what

1:01:20.640 --> 1:01:22.920
<v Speaker 2>was the second party? Oh? Were there any instance? Yeah,

1:01:22.960 --> 1:01:25.800
<v Speaker 2>there was little stuff. One time the steering went out

1:01:26.080 --> 1:01:28.240
<v Speaker 2>while we were going off an exit ramp fortunately there

1:01:28.400 --> 1:01:31.479
<v Speaker 2>because we were slowing down and the van didn't turn

1:01:31.600 --> 1:01:33.760
<v Speaker 2>and went straight. We had to get that fixed. And

1:01:33.760 --> 1:01:37.800
<v Speaker 2>one time we were leaving for a trip up north somewhere,

1:01:37.960 --> 1:01:43.480
<v Speaker 2>and for whatever reason, there were only two or three

1:01:43.560 --> 1:01:47.000
<v Speaker 2>lug nuts on the rear wheel of our van, and

1:01:47.080 --> 1:01:50.000
<v Speaker 2>I remember noticing that and tightening up and they were loose,

1:01:50.040 --> 1:01:52.600
<v Speaker 2>and I remember thinking a three is probably just as

1:01:52.600 --> 1:01:55.840
<v Speaker 2>good as five. And on that trip on the way home,

1:01:55.840 --> 1:01:58.040
<v Speaker 2>the wheel came off the van that was that was

1:01:58.040 --> 1:02:02.120
<v Speaker 2>a scary one, you know, but fortunately it didn't flip

1:02:02.120 --> 1:02:04.160
<v Speaker 2>over or anything like that. So yeah, there was little stuff.

1:02:04.200 --> 1:02:06.200
<v Speaker 2>I think we just got really lucky and honestly, a

1:02:06.200 --> 1:02:09.480
<v Speaker 2>lot of the time, I mean, there was a lot

1:02:09.520 --> 1:02:12.320
<v Speaker 2>of drinking going on, and we didn't exactly pay much

1:02:12.360 --> 1:02:15.440
<v Speaker 2>attention to designated drivers. I don't say that proudly. I

1:02:15.440 --> 1:02:16.920
<v Speaker 2>think it's just how it was.

1:02:25.160 --> 1:02:29.280
<v Speaker 1>Okay. In the book, you're surprised if the acceptance of

1:02:29.320 --> 1:02:34.400
<v Speaker 1>the music once you make recordings. Why do you think

1:02:34.920 --> 1:02:36.040
<v Speaker 1>people embraced it?

1:02:38.400 --> 1:02:41.400
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think there's a number of reasons why the

1:02:41.520 --> 1:02:47.720
<v Speaker 2>music reacted like it did. I think so much of

1:02:47.800 --> 1:02:52.680
<v Speaker 2>all of this story is timing. I think maybe if

1:02:52.680 --> 1:02:55.920
<v Speaker 2>someone had made similar records to the records we made

1:02:56.160 --> 1:02:58.640
<v Speaker 2>five years earlier or five years later, they may not

1:02:58.720 --> 1:03:02.960
<v Speaker 2>have mattered the same way that those records mattered to

1:03:03.080 --> 1:03:08.720
<v Speaker 2>our experience. I think there was just a moment where

1:03:09.000 --> 1:03:14.280
<v Speaker 2>this thing that we were a part of accidentally was

1:03:14.320 --> 1:03:20.520
<v Speaker 2>connecting with different scenes and different groups of of hardcore

1:03:20.600 --> 1:03:23.040
<v Speaker 2>kids and metal kids and punk rock kids. It was

1:03:23.120 --> 1:03:26.440
<v Speaker 2>all sort of connecting at that point in time. And

1:03:26.520 --> 1:03:29.040
<v Speaker 2>as I said earlier, I think there were platforms popping

1:03:29.160 --> 1:03:31.840
<v Speaker 2>up that were supporting that. There's a thing called Much

1:03:31.920 --> 1:03:34.400
<v Speaker 2>Music at the time that was like a video platform,

1:03:34.480 --> 1:03:39.760
<v Speaker 2>and there was MTV Two was MTV's rebrand where they

1:03:39.760 --> 1:03:43.320
<v Speaker 2>were instead of where MTV was playing all this reality

1:03:43.600 --> 1:03:46.720
<v Speaker 2>show stuff on their big corporate channel they had, they

1:03:46.720 --> 1:03:49.840
<v Speaker 2>had a second channel that was more music oriented, and

1:03:49.840 --> 1:03:54.480
<v Speaker 2>they were really giving a lot of attension to underground bands.

1:03:55.720 --> 1:04:02.080
<v Speaker 2>And so there was this whole just connection going on

1:04:02.280 --> 1:04:05.720
<v Speaker 2>between the independent scenes and the bands that were starting

1:04:05.720 --> 1:04:07.920
<v Speaker 2>to pop up, and the platforms that were made available

1:04:07.920 --> 1:04:10.800
<v Speaker 2>to us, and it all synced up. And I think

1:04:10.880 --> 1:04:14.880
<v Speaker 2>it's the kind of thing like if we were out

1:04:14.920 --> 1:04:17.720
<v Speaker 2>in the water on our board when the wave came,

1:04:18.200 --> 1:04:21.080
<v Speaker 2>if we had been on the beach complaining that there

1:04:21.120 --> 1:04:24.120
<v Speaker 2>aren't any waves, we wouldn't have caught the wave, if

1:04:24.320 --> 1:04:25.960
<v Speaker 2>you know what I mean. If we came the next

1:04:26.080 --> 1:04:28.160
<v Speaker 2>day with our board and there were no waves, we wouldn't.

1:04:28.240 --> 1:04:30.760
<v Speaker 2>It was just the right time and it was there

1:04:30.800 --> 1:04:34.920
<v Speaker 2>and we were doing the right thing, and we that

1:04:35.040 --> 1:04:42.200
<v Speaker 2>was the luck part and it's still luck. In my mind,

1:04:42.200 --> 1:04:44.960
<v Speaker 2>it's still good fortune. But the thing about us is

1:04:45.040 --> 1:04:50.720
<v Speaker 2>we have always been very, very genuine. We weren't doing

1:04:50.800 --> 1:04:55.800
<v Speaker 2>something trying to catch a trend. We were just being ourselves.

1:04:55.880 --> 1:04:59.600
<v Speaker 2>And there is something about this group of guys that

1:04:59.720 --> 1:05:04.520
<v Speaker 2>is some often to a fault, just so genuine, warts

1:05:04.560 --> 1:05:08.600
<v Speaker 2>and all, and we were just being We were there.

1:05:08.760 --> 1:05:10.840
<v Speaker 2>This band has always been very real, and we were

1:05:10.960 --> 1:05:12.760
<v Speaker 2>very real back then, and I think that was pretty

1:05:12.800 --> 1:05:15.440
<v Speaker 2>undeniable that anyone that might happen to pay attention, And

1:05:15.480 --> 1:05:18.800
<v Speaker 2>I think that was intriguing jumping all the way forward.

1:05:20.240 --> 1:05:23.240
<v Speaker 1>There is no MTV of any note at this point

1:05:23.280 --> 1:05:26.880
<v Speaker 1>in time. There are a million different outlets. To what

1:05:27.080 --> 1:05:31.160
<v Speaker 1>degree is your career's lamb of God hurt by the

1:05:31.280 --> 1:05:34.160
<v Speaker 1>fact that we live in this modern world where there

1:05:34.200 --> 1:05:37.640
<v Speaker 1>are a million options and hard to flow to the

1:05:37.680 --> 1:05:40.920
<v Speaker 1>top of the pile. In areas where people were unaware

1:05:40.960 --> 1:05:44.040
<v Speaker 1>of you might become aware of you today.

1:05:44.120 --> 1:05:47.400
<v Speaker 2>You mean, yeah, yeah, I don't think it's hurt at all.

1:05:47.520 --> 1:05:51.000
<v Speaker 2>I think I think it would be really really challenging

1:05:51.600 --> 1:05:55.720
<v Speaker 2>from my mind to navigate today's landscape escape as a

1:05:55.800 --> 1:06:00.040
<v Speaker 2>new young, emerging artist, a new ambitious band trying to

1:06:00.040 --> 1:06:04.120
<v Speaker 2>figure out how to get hurd or how to get seen,

1:06:04.320 --> 1:06:06.840
<v Speaker 2>or how to make the right noise in a world

1:06:07.080 --> 1:06:10.040
<v Speaker 2>full of all these options. I wouldn't know how to

1:06:10.080 --> 1:06:12.560
<v Speaker 2>do that today. But I think because Lamb of God

1:06:12.600 --> 1:06:15.400
<v Speaker 2>came from the time that we came from and we are,

1:06:15.760 --> 1:06:18.920
<v Speaker 2>we built this into what we are now. The band's

1:06:18.920 --> 1:06:23.680
<v Speaker 2>bigger now than it's ever been, and so I don't

1:06:23.720 --> 1:06:25.560
<v Speaker 2>know that any of it hurts us. I mean, we

1:06:25.600 --> 1:06:29.200
<v Speaker 2>play huge shows, we get these great festival opportunities, and

1:06:29.280 --> 1:06:32.280
<v Speaker 2>we play you know, small sheds on our own and

1:06:33.080 --> 1:06:37.000
<v Speaker 2>arenas and that, and so I don't know. Again, it's

1:06:37.040 --> 1:06:39.520
<v Speaker 2>sort of that theme. I can never imagine it getting

1:06:39.520 --> 1:06:43.480
<v Speaker 2>any bigger than it is, and I felt that way

1:06:43.560 --> 1:06:46.840
<v Speaker 2>the whole time through so you know, here at you know,

1:06:46.920 --> 1:06:51.520
<v Speaker 2>and I turned fifty two yesterday and the band, thank you,

1:06:51.560 --> 1:06:53.600
<v Speaker 2>and the band's still going strong. So I don't I

1:06:53.640 --> 1:06:57.080
<v Speaker 2>can't really say we're hurt by anything. I'm just ecstatic

1:06:57.160 --> 1:07:00.480
<v Speaker 2>and thrilled and grateful that people still care to listen

1:07:00.880 --> 1:07:03.400
<v Speaker 2>because we sure we still have a great time making

1:07:03.400 --> 1:07:04.320
<v Speaker 2>this music. For sure.

1:07:04.960 --> 1:07:08.520
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you make a couple of independent records, Epic comes

1:07:08.560 --> 1:07:13.680
<v Speaker 1>calling a did you have any trepidation signing with Epic,

1:07:13.800 --> 1:07:15.960
<v Speaker 1>or you say we're in the big League's b you

1:07:16.000 --> 1:07:18.200
<v Speaker 1>say in the book, you're just doing your usual thing,

1:07:19.040 --> 1:07:21.920
<v Speaker 1>and Epic is pushing and pushing for a record, and

1:07:21.960 --> 1:07:25.840
<v Speaker 1>your normal process is to collect riffs and other ideas

1:07:25.880 --> 1:07:28.680
<v Speaker 1>over a year and then this time you have to

1:07:28.680 --> 1:07:30.400
<v Speaker 1>do it in shorter. I thought you were setting it

1:07:30.480 --> 1:07:33.880
<v Speaker 1>up for like, well, it wouldn't be successful. It's a

1:07:33.880 --> 1:07:37.600
<v Speaker 1>classic second album syndrome, But in this case it was

1:07:37.640 --> 1:07:40.080
<v Speaker 1>so tell me about signing with the major label men

1:07:40.600 --> 1:07:41.600
<v Speaker 1>making that record.

1:07:43.120 --> 1:07:45.640
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, it's coming off the experience of that second

1:07:45.640 --> 1:07:47.880
<v Speaker 2>record called As the Palace Has Burned that we did

1:07:48.200 --> 1:07:52.480
<v Speaker 2>with the Prosthetic Records. We made the right video for

1:07:52.520 --> 1:07:55.240
<v Speaker 2>the right song, We got the right attention, and it

1:07:55.320 --> 1:07:58.880
<v Speaker 2>caught people's eyes at the next level, at the major

1:07:58.960 --> 1:08:02.520
<v Speaker 2>label level, and they signed us. And they told us

1:08:02.560 --> 1:08:06.240
<v Speaker 2>when they signed us, Kaz, the legendary A and R

1:08:06.320 --> 1:08:10.560
<v Speaker 2>guy Caz came down and with Scott Greer, who is

1:08:11.800 --> 1:08:13.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, working in conjunction with him at the time,

1:08:13.800 --> 1:08:15.360
<v Speaker 2>and they came down and said, listen, we don't want

1:08:15.360 --> 1:08:17.000
<v Speaker 2>to change anything about who you guys are. That's why

1:08:17.000 --> 1:08:20.400
<v Speaker 2>we're signing you think you guys are the best example

1:08:20.439 --> 1:08:22.280
<v Speaker 2>of this scene that's blowing up right now, that we

1:08:22.720 --> 1:08:24.160
<v Speaker 2>just want to be part of it and we want

1:08:24.280 --> 1:08:29.639
<v Speaker 2>you to be our engagement with that world. And they

1:08:29.720 --> 1:08:33.880
<v Speaker 2>have proven true to that word because we're still on

1:08:33.880 --> 1:08:38.479
<v Speaker 2>Epic records, and that was twenty years ago, more than

1:08:38.479 --> 1:08:42.000
<v Speaker 2>twenty years ago. So but for me at the time,

1:08:42.200 --> 1:08:46.559
<v Speaker 2>and I think for us collectively, we felt like a

1:08:46.600 --> 1:08:50.200
<v Speaker 2>major label us, Okay, sure, let's do it. Let's make

1:08:50.240 --> 1:08:51.759
<v Speaker 2>sure we do the right one, because there were several

1:08:51.840 --> 1:08:55.839
<v Speaker 2>that came or that were sniffing around, and as I recall,

1:08:55.960 --> 1:09:00.000
<v Speaker 2>Epic wasn't the they didn't have the biggest offer financially.

1:09:00.560 --> 1:09:03.840
<v Speaker 2>As I recall, I remember there being another option that

1:09:04.320 --> 1:09:07.240
<v Speaker 2>was for more money. But they didn't have that conversation

1:09:07.280 --> 1:09:08.880
<v Speaker 2>that I just told you about. They didn't they didn't

1:09:08.880 --> 1:09:10.880
<v Speaker 2>say we don't want to change anything. We think you

1:09:10.920 --> 1:09:12.720
<v Speaker 2>guys are great, We just want to we just want

1:09:12.720 --> 1:09:15.639
<v Speaker 2>to be a part of it. And that resonated with us,

1:09:15.680 --> 1:09:19.920
<v Speaker 2>and again talking about sort of intention and deliberate things,

1:09:19.960 --> 1:09:22.479
<v Speaker 2>and some of it's luck, but we believe that, and

1:09:22.520 --> 1:09:28.160
<v Speaker 2>I think us paying attention and kind of tuning into

1:09:28.200 --> 1:09:32.160
<v Speaker 2>that part of their presentation wind up being really a

1:09:32.160 --> 1:09:35.639
<v Speaker 2>good move because we're still here, We're still on Epic Records.

1:09:35.920 --> 1:09:38.800
<v Speaker 2>So but for us at the time, we were like, Okay, cool,

1:09:38.840 --> 1:09:41.719
<v Speaker 2>we'll sign with your label, and that means we probably

1:09:41.760 --> 1:09:43.439
<v Speaker 2>don't have to have a job for at least a

1:09:43.520 --> 1:09:45.599
<v Speaker 2>year and a half two years until we get dropped.

1:09:46.840 --> 1:09:48.479
<v Speaker 2>And that was the way we thought about it. We

1:09:48.479 --> 1:09:50.000
<v Speaker 2>were just sure we were going to make a record

1:09:50.000 --> 1:09:52.920
<v Speaker 2>for him and get dropped. But for me, meant I

1:09:53.000 --> 1:09:54.920
<v Speaker 2>probably wouldn't have to be on a roof for at

1:09:55.000 --> 1:09:57.599
<v Speaker 2>least a year, and that sounded like a great deal

1:09:57.600 --> 1:09:57.840
<v Speaker 2>to me.

1:09:58.479 --> 1:10:03.920
<v Speaker 1>Okay, couldn't Eventionally, BAM's complained the label is telling us

1:10:03.960 --> 1:10:07.680
<v Speaker 1>what to do, and there's pressure. What's your experience bit.

1:10:11.360 --> 1:10:16.240
<v Speaker 2>I don't remember ever hearing pressure to change anything about

1:10:16.400 --> 1:10:22.280
<v Speaker 2>anything musically at all. I just remember, and I don't

1:10:22.280 --> 1:10:23.960
<v Speaker 2>tell this story in the book, and I won't say

1:10:23.960 --> 1:10:26.200
<v Speaker 2>the gentleman's name, but there was a record executive that

1:10:26.240 --> 1:10:29.400
<v Speaker 2>came down early in and we were going to play

1:10:30.040 --> 1:10:33.719
<v Speaker 2>him some new material and he was all jazzed up about,

1:10:33.840 --> 1:10:36.479
<v Speaker 2>you know, we're gonna do this, and we've got this

1:10:36.600 --> 1:10:39.120
<v Speaker 2>number for a budget for your first video, and we

1:10:39.200 --> 1:10:41.960
<v Speaker 2>played him a couple songs and then on his way out,

1:10:42.080 --> 1:10:44.479
<v Speaker 2>that sounds great, guys, we're gonna get right going. Don't

1:10:44.520 --> 1:10:47.200
<v Speaker 2>forget we've got this number for your next video. And

1:10:47.240 --> 1:10:50.120
<v Speaker 2>it was half that he had cut the budget between

1:10:50.120 --> 1:10:52.760
<v Speaker 2>the time he'd walked in the room at the time

1:10:52.800 --> 1:10:56.559
<v Speaker 2>he walked out. But I understood, you know, this is

1:10:56.600 --> 1:10:59.519
<v Speaker 2>a hard sell. You know, this was really really extreme

1:10:59.600 --> 1:11:03.240
<v Speaker 2>music for the time, especially We're we're you know, we're

1:11:03.840 --> 1:11:06.800
<v Speaker 2>not so extreme anymore because things just continue to get

1:11:06.920 --> 1:11:09.360
<v Speaker 2>heavier and heavier and more abrasive. But at the time

1:11:09.840 --> 1:11:13.320
<v Speaker 2>for a major label band, we were we were really

1:11:13.360 --> 1:11:16.080
<v Speaker 2>really heavy, really you know, verging on you know, to

1:11:17.080 --> 1:11:20.479
<v Speaker 2>conventional ears unlistenable, right, So I understood that. I thought

1:11:20.479 --> 1:11:23.559
<v Speaker 2>it was really funny. But to that point, no one

1:11:23.640 --> 1:11:25.920
<v Speaker 2>ever ever said, hey, you guys, think maybe you want

1:11:25.960 --> 1:11:28.200
<v Speaker 2>to sing a little more on this thing, or maybe

1:11:28.439 --> 1:11:30.680
<v Speaker 2>we can we can shine this up a little bit.

1:11:30.720 --> 1:11:33.240
<v Speaker 2>They really didn't. They really didn't. They let us be

1:11:33.400 --> 1:11:35.840
<v Speaker 2>us and they and they still do. And I think

1:11:35.880 --> 1:11:39.400
<v Speaker 2>that I hear all the horror stories and the complaints

1:11:39.439 --> 1:11:42.200
<v Speaker 2>about major labels, and I don't discount any of them

1:11:42.240 --> 1:11:44.800
<v Speaker 2>It's just not been my experience with Epic. We've just

1:11:44.880 --> 1:11:47.320
<v Speaker 2>had such a great relationship with that label and had

1:11:47.320 --> 1:11:49.800
<v Speaker 2>such a good run with them that fortunately for us,

1:11:50.439 --> 1:11:53.160
<v Speaker 2>we've always always been really happy with our situation.

1:11:53.600 --> 1:11:59.360
<v Speaker 1>Any pressure to be the deadline.

1:11:57.600 --> 1:12:02.759
<v Speaker 2>Oh none. That I recall only that first record, only

1:12:02.760 --> 1:12:06.679
<v Speaker 2>that first record, because and that was pressure just by

1:12:06.760 --> 1:12:09.920
<v Speaker 2>nature of the situation. We had very recently released the

1:12:09.960 --> 1:12:12.479
<v Speaker 2>as the Palaces Burn record, and then Epic signed us

1:12:12.520 --> 1:12:14.280
<v Speaker 2>kind of right off the heels of that because it

1:12:14.320 --> 1:12:18.080
<v Speaker 2>was it was popping. So when Epic signs you, when

1:12:18.120 --> 1:12:20.599
<v Speaker 2>a major label signs you from from an independent label,

1:12:21.600 --> 1:12:24.799
<v Speaker 2>they don't really care about you cycling out that record

1:12:24.840 --> 1:12:28.000
<v Speaker 2>you just put put out and you going on tour

1:12:28.040 --> 1:12:29.679
<v Speaker 2>for a year and a half to promote a record

1:12:29.680 --> 1:12:33.360
<v Speaker 2>that is not theirs. You know, to hell with that record.

1:12:33.360 --> 1:12:35.840
<v Speaker 2>We want our record. Now you're with us, Now, let's

1:12:35.920 --> 1:12:38.479
<v Speaker 2>let's hear some music, you know. So in that sense,

1:12:39.160 --> 1:12:41.720
<v Speaker 2>I felt a lot of pressure just to kind of

1:12:41.800 --> 1:12:45.639
<v Speaker 2>catch up with the situation that we had just entered

1:12:45.640 --> 1:12:48.800
<v Speaker 2>into the relationship we had just entered into creatively, I

1:12:48.840 --> 1:12:51.000
<v Speaker 2>had to catch up and be ready to give the music.

1:12:51.120 --> 1:12:54.000
<v Speaker 2>And I had really just kind of squeezed myself out musically,

1:12:54.080 --> 1:12:56.639
<v Speaker 2>me and the guys I'm write with, we felt kind

1:12:56.640 --> 1:12:59.559
<v Speaker 2>of purged, and then all of a sudden, You've got

1:12:59.600 --> 1:13:01.559
<v Speaker 2>to make the most important record of your life at

1:13:01.600 --> 1:13:06.040
<v Speaker 2>the time, and frankly, probably still was the most important

1:13:06.040 --> 1:13:08.000
<v Speaker 2>record in my life, although I don't think of it

1:13:08.000 --> 1:13:09.600
<v Speaker 2>that way until now, but you know, it was a

1:13:09.680 --> 1:13:12.720
<v Speaker 2>very very pivotal record in your career. And certainly at

1:13:12.760 --> 1:13:14.960
<v Speaker 2>the time it wasn't lost on me that I was like, well,

1:13:15.280 --> 1:13:16.720
<v Speaker 2>I gotta make a hell of a record. This is

1:13:16.760 --> 1:13:20.759
<v Speaker 2>my first major label record, and I don't have anything.

1:13:20.840 --> 1:13:23.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't have anything, So in that sense that there

1:13:23.840 --> 1:13:27.040
<v Speaker 2>was pressure, but it wasn't someone saying, hey, guys, you're late.

1:13:27.200 --> 1:13:28.160
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't that kind of thing.

1:13:29.040 --> 1:13:34.960
<v Speaker 1>Okay. Throughout the book there's a theme of addiction. Hey

1:13:35.760 --> 1:13:41.240
<v Speaker 1>you're a middle class guy, be your intelligence. See you're educated.

1:13:41.479 --> 1:13:45.160
<v Speaker 1>D It's a cliche. Wasn't there part of you saying,

1:13:45.280 --> 1:13:47.479
<v Speaker 1>wait a second, what am I doing here?

1:13:49.520 --> 1:13:53.960
<v Speaker 2>The thing about addiction and alcoholism, Bob, if it was

1:13:54.600 --> 1:13:58.679
<v Speaker 2>a matter of intelligence, or if it was a matter

1:13:58.760 --> 1:14:07.760
<v Speaker 2>of morality, it would be it would be eradicated. Some

1:14:07.840 --> 1:14:17.080
<v Speaker 2>of the most intelligent thoughtful, kindest, most creative, most exceptional

1:14:17.120 --> 1:14:20.800
<v Speaker 2>people I know have been drug addicts and alcoholics, and

1:14:20.840 --> 1:14:28.400
<v Speaker 2>I think it can sometimes be mischaracterized as a lapse

1:14:28.479 --> 1:14:34.720
<v Speaker 2>in judgment, or elapse in planning, or ellapse in consideration.

1:14:35.439 --> 1:14:39.040
<v Speaker 2>And in my personal experience and the vast experience I've

1:14:39.080 --> 1:14:42.559
<v Speaker 2>had with other addicts and alcoholics, none of those things

1:14:42.840 --> 1:14:44.080
<v Speaker 2>are factors.

1:14:45.520 --> 1:14:51.519
<v Speaker 1>Well, looking back at your not brief period with drugs

1:14:51.560 --> 1:14:55.880
<v Speaker 1>and alcohol, what flip the switch? Let me just give

1:14:55.880 --> 1:14:59.920
<v Speaker 1>a couple of concepts. I mean, for me, if you

1:15:00.000 --> 1:15:03.040
<v Speaker 1>you're in a band, and you're a successful band, you

1:15:03.120 --> 1:15:06.920
<v Speaker 1>go and you play the thousands, they go home, you're

1:15:06.960 --> 1:15:10.400
<v Speaker 1>on the bus, It's impossible to calm down, it's impossible

1:15:10.400 --> 1:15:11.920
<v Speaker 1>to sleep. You got to get up and do again.

1:15:12.360 --> 1:15:15.000
<v Speaker 1>What were the driving forces of your addiction?

1:15:18.000 --> 1:15:22.920
<v Speaker 2>I believe that I would have been an addict alcoholic

1:15:23.680 --> 1:15:26.240
<v Speaker 2>if I had been a roofer, if I had been

1:15:27.160 --> 1:15:30.360
<v Speaker 2>a political science professor, or if I had been a

1:15:30.479 --> 1:15:34.040
<v Speaker 2>rock star, if you will, I believe that drugs and

1:15:34.080 --> 1:15:42.200
<v Speaker 2>alcohol react with my chemistry and my emotional and psychological

1:15:42.600 --> 1:15:48.040
<v Speaker 2>makeup in a way that has a very very soothing

1:15:48.120 --> 1:15:51.000
<v Speaker 2>and calming effect, in a way that is different than

1:15:51.720 --> 1:15:57.640
<v Speaker 2>how it might react with you physiologically, which in my opinion,

1:15:58.680 --> 1:16:09.240
<v Speaker 2>hijacks my reward system or my sense of wellness. And

1:16:09.920 --> 1:16:13.080
<v Speaker 2>I'm not a doctor. I'm not an addictionologist, if that's

1:16:13.120 --> 1:16:15.840
<v Speaker 2>actually a thing, or I'm not a therapist. I'm not

1:16:15.880 --> 1:16:18.960
<v Speaker 2>any of those things. But I am an addict in recovery,

1:16:19.080 --> 1:16:22.599
<v Speaker 2>and so I have lived a life before drugs and alcohol.

1:16:22.760 --> 1:16:25.960
<v Speaker 2>I have lived a life extensively ruled by drugs and alcohol,

1:16:26.160 --> 1:16:30.839
<v Speaker 2>and I have a life now that doesn't include them.

1:16:31.120 --> 1:16:36.240
<v Speaker 2>And based on that experience, it's my understanding and my

1:16:36.360 --> 1:16:45.280
<v Speaker 2>belief that the relief and the sense of security that

1:16:45.320 --> 1:16:48.080
<v Speaker 2>the addict feels when they're exposed to their drug of

1:16:48.160 --> 1:16:55.360
<v Speaker 2>choice is something that is so compelling and so necessary

1:16:56.200 --> 1:17:01.240
<v Speaker 2>for their kind of mental state that uh, it can't

1:17:01.280 --> 1:17:05.920
<v Speaker 2>be out intellectualized.

1:17:14.360 --> 1:17:18.440
<v Speaker 1>Okay, let's to the degree you can. Can you separate

1:17:18.520 --> 1:17:22.560
<v Speaker 1>your addiction from alcohol to your addiction primarily to opiates.

1:17:22.920 --> 1:17:26.160
<v Speaker 1>Were they two separate things? Was essentially the same thing?

1:17:26.520 --> 1:17:28.400
<v Speaker 1>Did one lead to another? What can you.

1:17:28.360 --> 1:17:35.000
<v Speaker 2>Tell us as it's as far as I believe, the

1:17:35.040 --> 1:17:38.719
<v Speaker 2>only difference between an addiction to alcohol and an addiction

1:17:38.800 --> 1:17:43.840
<v Speaker 2>to opiates is it's the same as you like Thai

1:17:44.000 --> 1:17:48.120
<v Speaker 2>food and I like Indian food. It's addiction is addiction

1:17:48.200 --> 1:17:51.240
<v Speaker 2>and alcohol is a drug. There is a difference in

1:17:51.280 --> 1:17:53.840
<v Speaker 2>the sense that one is legal and the other is not,

1:17:54.120 --> 1:17:57.759
<v Speaker 2>except under specific circumstances. But I don't think the legal

1:17:57.800 --> 1:18:02.920
<v Speaker 2>status of a particular substance and really governs many people's

1:18:05.320 --> 1:18:08.400
<v Speaker 2>attraction to one versus the other. I don't think that

1:18:08.520 --> 1:18:12.479
<v Speaker 2>is a very guiding premise when it comes to one's

1:18:14.120 --> 1:18:19.559
<v Speaker 2>engagement with alcohol or drugs. For me personally, as you asked,

1:18:20.320 --> 1:18:25.960
<v Speaker 2>I think I drank alcoholically for a very long time,

1:18:26.000 --> 1:18:29.240
<v Speaker 2>and I think I was what we sort of colloquially

1:18:29.439 --> 1:18:34.880
<v Speaker 2>refer to as a high functioning alcoholic. I drank every day,

1:18:34.880 --> 1:18:38.640
<v Speaker 2>and I drank heavily, but it did not impact my

1:18:38.800 --> 1:18:43.479
<v Speaker 2>daily routines and my relationships to the degree that my

1:18:43.600 --> 1:18:49.400
<v Speaker 2>opiate use eventually did. It certainly impacted those things, but

1:18:49.560 --> 1:18:52.400
<v Speaker 2>not to the degree and not with the same dire

1:18:52.760 --> 1:19:01.320
<v Speaker 2>and consequences with the same expedients that my opiate.

1:19:01.000 --> 1:19:05.840
<v Speaker 1>Eustd Okay, you a couple of times in the book

1:19:05.920 --> 1:19:09.880
<v Speaker 1>you say you talk about the drugs and addiction being equal,

1:19:09.920 --> 1:19:13.280
<v Speaker 1>but you really do not enjoy cocaine.

1:19:15.439 --> 1:19:17.479
<v Speaker 2>For a guy that hates it, I sure did enough

1:19:17.520 --> 1:19:17.840
<v Speaker 2>of it.

1:19:19.760 --> 1:19:21.479
<v Speaker 1>Well, that didn't come across of the book, and the

1:19:21.479 --> 1:19:24.559
<v Speaker 1>book it sounded like you did it rarely. So what

1:19:24.600 --> 1:19:26.120
<v Speaker 1>was your problem with cocaine?

1:19:27.240 --> 1:19:30.640
<v Speaker 2>I just don't really like the buzz man. It turns

1:19:30.320 --> 1:19:35.880
<v Speaker 2>it's instant asshole powder. I've never met anyone that was

1:19:36.560 --> 1:19:39.719
<v Speaker 2>more fun to be around when they're doing cocaine, unless

1:19:39.800 --> 1:19:41.160
<v Speaker 2>I was doing it and they had some.

1:19:42.520 --> 1:19:47.879
<v Speaker 1>Okay, when you're taking opiates, you're kind of checking out

1:19:48.200 --> 1:19:52.680
<v Speaker 1>and you're kind of removed alcohol. You know, it can

1:19:52.760 --> 1:19:55.559
<v Speaker 1>make you more of a party person, make you more verbal,

1:19:55.640 --> 1:19:59.799
<v Speaker 1>make you more of a fighter. But did you find

1:19:59.840 --> 1:20:02.280
<v Speaker 1>the the effects of opiates? What was it like being

1:20:02.320 --> 1:20:06.519
<v Speaker 1>the person taking the opiates?

1:20:07.520 --> 1:20:12.320
<v Speaker 2>For me, it would early in. I mean, there's there

1:20:12.400 --> 1:20:15.720
<v Speaker 2>is a so there's a curve to this stuff. You know,

1:20:15.760 --> 1:20:18.639
<v Speaker 2>at first it works, and then for a while it works,

1:20:18.680 --> 1:20:22.680
<v Speaker 2>and then it stops working, and you wonder why it's

1:20:22.720 --> 1:20:24.680
<v Speaker 2>not working the same anymore. So you do more, or

1:20:24.720 --> 1:20:27.240
<v Speaker 2>you do different versions of it, or you administer it

1:20:27.320 --> 1:20:32.080
<v Speaker 2>in different ways, trying to find a reason why it's

1:20:32.120 --> 1:20:36.080
<v Speaker 2>not doing what it used to do. As it turns out,

1:20:36.120 --> 1:20:39.080
<v Speaker 2>that's just how addiction works. But when you're in it,

1:20:39.160 --> 1:20:42.599
<v Speaker 2>you don't realize that, so you're chasing it. The question

1:20:42.760 --> 1:20:45.880
<v Speaker 2>is how did opiates make me feel? And I think

1:20:45.880 --> 1:20:47.920
<v Speaker 2>what you're getting at is why in particular was I

1:20:48.040 --> 1:20:52.879
<v Speaker 2>drawn to that type of drug. For me, it created

1:20:53.000 --> 1:20:56.600
<v Speaker 2>early on a sense of well being and it's a

1:20:57.400 --> 1:21:00.439
<v Speaker 2>cure for anxiety that I tend to carry with me

1:21:00.840 --> 1:21:04.720
<v Speaker 2>through my day to day life. And you know I've

1:21:04.720 --> 1:21:07.200
<v Speaker 2>said before and this is by new means trying to

1:21:07.240 --> 1:21:10.880
<v Speaker 2>promote or glamorize anything, but to me, for me, at

1:21:10.960 --> 1:21:14.040
<v Speaker 2>least not to me, but for me, ope, it's were

1:21:14.080 --> 1:21:17.120
<v Speaker 2>the best anxiety medicine I'd ever come across, far better

1:21:17.160 --> 1:21:20.759
<v Speaker 2>than alcohol or anything else. So when I became exposed

1:21:20.800 --> 1:21:25.320
<v Speaker 2>to that in a recreational sense, I realized that, without

1:21:25.520 --> 1:21:30.080
<v Speaker 2>really getting too detailed in my analysis of it, I

1:21:30.160 --> 1:21:37.280
<v Speaker 2>just knew that that made me feel very, very okay,

1:21:38.920 --> 1:21:41.559
<v Speaker 2>and I liked that feeling. I wasn't worried about much

1:21:41.560 --> 1:21:42.240
<v Speaker 2>of anything.

1:21:42.080 --> 1:21:47.640
<v Speaker 1>Okay, anxiety, I would assume. You know, if you're clean now,

1:21:47.920 --> 1:21:50.559
<v Speaker 1>anxiety is popping up all the time. When do you

1:21:50.640 --> 1:21:54.400
<v Speaker 1>encounter anxiety? How do you cope with it without drugs?

1:21:55.479 --> 1:22:09.760
<v Speaker 2>Well? I still certainly experience anxiety. I think I don't

1:22:09.760 --> 1:22:12.920
<v Speaker 2>really know how to answer that, Bob, except to say, you.

1:22:12.840 --> 1:22:15.040
<v Speaker 1>Know, let me ask a different way.

1:22:15.240 --> 1:22:18.160
<v Speaker 2>Okay, do you take Xanax.

1:22:17.720 --> 1:22:20.520
<v Speaker 1>Or out of van or any other anti anxiety medications?

1:22:21.000 --> 1:22:24.320
<v Speaker 2>No? I don't take any mood or mine altering drugs. Oh, okay, don't.

1:22:24.400 --> 1:22:26.080
<v Speaker 2>I don't take niqlo when I have the flu.

1:22:26.360 --> 1:22:30.520
<v Speaker 1>Okay. So let's just assume I say, hey, Mark, tomorrow,

1:22:30.520 --> 1:22:35.520
<v Speaker 1>we're gonna go to the airport, not private, we're flying commercial,

1:22:35.720 --> 1:22:37.759
<v Speaker 1>and then we got to be here by this time.

1:22:38.120 --> 1:22:40.000
<v Speaker 1>Is your anxiety starting to rise?

1:22:41.439 --> 1:22:44.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? It is? It is it? Actually it is. But

1:22:44.720 --> 1:22:47.000
<v Speaker 2>don't you think these are life on life's terms kind

1:22:47.000 --> 1:22:49.439
<v Speaker 2>of things? I mean that this is, you know, I

1:22:49.479 --> 1:22:55.640
<v Speaker 2>think I have been able, through a process of recovery

1:22:55.720 --> 1:22:59.240
<v Speaker 2>to put myself in a state of kind of mindfulness

1:22:59.560 --> 1:23:04.320
<v Speaker 2>and acceptance of the terms of my life on any

1:23:04.360 --> 1:23:06.360
<v Speaker 2>given day, which is a very good life, by the way.

1:23:07.760 --> 1:23:11.400
<v Speaker 2>And more than anything, I have learned that at whatever

1:23:11.520 --> 1:23:15.479
<v Speaker 2>anxiety I might be feeling or confronted with at any

1:23:15.560 --> 1:23:19.040
<v Speaker 2>given time, or whatever self doubt or self loathing, or

1:23:19.080 --> 1:23:22.439
<v Speaker 2>all of these things that were for a time treated

1:23:22.479 --> 1:23:26.599
<v Speaker 2>successfully by drugs and alcohol and then later treated entirely

1:23:26.680 --> 1:23:31.439
<v Speaker 2>unsuccessfully by them. What I have learned is that whatever

1:23:31.479 --> 1:23:37.599
<v Speaker 2>I'm experiencing is temporary and is never worth going back

1:23:37.640 --> 1:23:39.760
<v Speaker 2>to the way I was living, because I live under

1:23:39.800 --> 1:23:43.599
<v Speaker 2>the assumption that if I use drugs or alcohol at

1:23:43.640 --> 1:23:46.599
<v Speaker 2>all of any kind, then I will in short time

1:23:47.040 --> 1:23:49.800
<v Speaker 2>be where I was at the end of my run,

1:23:49.960 --> 1:23:52.439
<v Speaker 2>and that is a place I never care to be again.

1:23:53.640 --> 1:23:58.599
<v Speaker 1>So your philosophy is it self created or is that

1:23:58.640 --> 1:24:03.439
<v Speaker 1>a result of therapy? You're a twelve step program.

1:24:03.840 --> 1:24:07.519
<v Speaker 2>I certainly work a recovery program, and I've also have

1:24:07.600 --> 1:24:12.000
<v Speaker 2>a good therapist, and I've also done a lot of

1:24:12.040 --> 1:24:14.120
<v Speaker 2>thinking about this myself and have a lot of experience

1:24:14.120 --> 1:24:14.400
<v Speaker 2>in it.

1:24:15.840 --> 1:24:18.960
<v Speaker 1>Okay, a lot of times, you know, you're talking about things,

1:24:19.040 --> 1:24:22.080
<v Speaker 1>especially guys, they don't talk about it. But a lot

1:24:22.120 --> 1:24:29.000
<v Speaker 1>of people with anxiety issues deal with this via avoidance. Okay,

1:24:29.080 --> 1:24:32.800
<v Speaker 1>But in your case, you can say, hey, it's gonna

1:24:32.840 --> 1:24:35.400
<v Speaker 1>upset me, it's gonna make me buzz, but I can

1:24:35.439 --> 1:24:36.120
<v Speaker 1>go forward.

1:24:38.120 --> 1:24:43.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think so. I think knowing the depth that

1:24:43.680 --> 1:24:49.160
<v Speaker 2>I have dug to in my life trying to hide

1:24:49.240 --> 1:24:55.200
<v Speaker 2>and escape and make myself disappear, you know, you just

1:24:55.320 --> 1:25:02.840
<v Speaker 2>wind up in a room by yourself, angry, doing drugs alone.

1:25:03.000 --> 1:25:04.360
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to live like that anymore.

1:25:05.360 --> 1:25:08.479
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you detail that you have a girlfriend in New

1:25:08.560 --> 1:25:13.920
<v Speaker 1>York working in the music business. Ultimately you marry someone

1:25:13.960 --> 1:25:19.920
<v Speaker 1>in Richmond. You have the unfortunate experience of the first

1:25:20.000 --> 1:25:23.639
<v Speaker 1>child not continuing to live, but you have the second child,

1:25:24.439 --> 1:25:28.920
<v Speaker 1>and then the woman you're married to moves out. There's

1:25:28.920 --> 1:25:31.599
<v Speaker 1>not a lot of discussion about that. Later in the book,

1:25:31.680 --> 1:25:35.559
<v Speaker 1>you say, well, she wasn't the right one. Was she

1:25:35.760 --> 1:25:38.559
<v Speaker 1>not the right one and you didn't marry the right one?

1:25:38.920 --> 1:25:41.640
<v Speaker 1>Or was it drugs? What was going on in that

1:25:41.720 --> 1:25:42.800
<v Speaker 1>first relationship.

1:25:45.080 --> 1:25:51.240
<v Speaker 2>I don't really think it's fair too tell other people's

1:25:51.280 --> 1:25:56.840
<v Speaker 2>part of this story that aren't necessarily involved in the storytelling.

1:25:57.120 --> 1:26:01.280
<v Speaker 2>So there's some components of along the way that I

1:26:01.360 --> 1:26:05.080
<v Speaker 2>left out or that I glossed over, and that was deliberate.

1:26:07.760 --> 1:26:12.720
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you ultimately meet another woman. She's a bartender and

1:26:12.760 --> 1:26:16.719
<v Speaker 1>she's a big drinker. This isn't a red flag.

1:26:18.600 --> 1:26:25.240
<v Speaker 3>Well, you know, you're asking a guy that's throwing red

1:26:25.280 --> 1:26:28.759
<v Speaker 3>flags everywhere he walks to have a red flag.

1:26:28.880 --> 1:26:31.400
<v Speaker 2>Right at that point in time, I was a red flag.

1:26:31.880 --> 1:26:34.320
<v Speaker 2>I was a blinking red neon sign.

1:26:35.720 --> 1:26:37.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. But the way the book is written, which of

1:26:37.680 --> 1:26:40.680
<v Speaker 1>course written words and emotions are two different things. You know,

1:26:40.720 --> 1:26:43.880
<v Speaker 1>you kind of say that this person was testing the limits,

1:26:44.400 --> 1:26:50.439
<v Speaker 1>and okay, you're overseas and she starts to recover. To

1:26:50.560 --> 1:26:55.160
<v Speaker 1>what degree was her decision to recover impactful on you?

1:26:55.200 --> 1:26:57.880
<v Speaker 1>Would you have recovered at that point in time if

1:26:57.920 --> 1:26:59.640
<v Speaker 1>you were not involved with her and she had not

1:26:59.720 --> 1:27:00.800
<v Speaker 1>start did recovery?

1:27:01.240 --> 1:27:05.400
<v Speaker 2>Okay, that's a great question, all of that question. I

1:27:05.439 --> 1:27:08.360
<v Speaker 2>think when I met that person, the fact that she

1:27:08.520 --> 1:27:12.439
<v Speaker 2>didn't do hard drugs was you know, you characterize her

1:27:12.439 --> 1:27:14.599
<v Speaker 2>heavy drinking as a red flag. To me, the fact

1:27:14.640 --> 1:27:19.160
<v Speaker 2>that she didn't do hard drugs, which is contrary to

1:27:19.320 --> 1:27:21.839
<v Speaker 2>my philosophy that I that I pointed out to you earlier,

1:27:21.920 --> 1:27:24.360
<v Speaker 2>which is true. What I truly believe that alcohol is

1:27:24.439 --> 1:27:27.040
<v Speaker 2>a drug like any other. But at the time I

1:27:27.240 --> 1:27:35.920
<v Speaker 2>was engaging in this sort of cultural you know, mischaracterization

1:27:36.160 --> 1:27:39.920
<v Speaker 2>as alcohol as being the lesser of evils, right, So

1:27:40.160 --> 1:27:42.920
<v Speaker 2>I was I was subscribing to that notion, and to me,

1:27:43.120 --> 1:27:45.280
<v Speaker 2>the fact that she didn't do hard drugs was a win.

1:27:46.120 --> 1:27:50.000
<v Speaker 2>So I certainly liked her quite a bit and had

1:27:50.000 --> 1:27:52.040
<v Speaker 2>a lot of feelings for anyway, But I was able

1:27:52.080 --> 1:27:57.200
<v Speaker 2>to convince myself that she is this is great because

1:27:57.200 --> 1:28:00.479
<v Speaker 2>all she does is drink, and that's going to help me.

1:28:01.080 --> 1:28:03.000
<v Speaker 2>Is because I'm gonna be with her, you know, obviously

1:28:03.000 --> 1:28:04.559
<v Speaker 2>we spend a lot of time together. That's gonna help

1:28:04.560 --> 1:28:06.600
<v Speaker 2>me stay away from hard drugs. Turned out not to

1:28:06.600 --> 1:28:09.840
<v Speaker 2>be true. And I used to tell her all the time,

1:28:09.840 --> 1:28:12.599
<v Speaker 2>I'm postponing the inevitable. I really really need to get clean.

1:28:12.640 --> 1:28:14.320
<v Speaker 2>I just you know, I just haven't seen it. And

1:28:14.479 --> 1:28:16.360
<v Speaker 2>you know, I had already been to treatment and that

1:28:16.439 --> 1:28:18.680
<v Speaker 2>didn't work, and so I was, you know, I was

1:28:18.720 --> 1:28:20.559
<v Speaker 2>starting at by this point in the book, and by

1:28:20.560 --> 1:28:22.559
<v Speaker 2>this point, my story is starting to bounce back and

1:28:22.600 --> 1:28:28.439
<v Speaker 2>forth between these attempts to at the time what I

1:28:28.479 --> 1:28:31.680
<v Speaker 2>thought would be able to control my addiction, and it

1:28:31.720 --> 1:28:34.800
<v Speaker 2>turns out that I can't control it.

1:28:37.120 --> 1:28:42.839
<v Speaker 1>Okay, getting off opiates, just like Pete Townsend said, getting

1:28:42.880 --> 1:28:45.920
<v Speaker 1>off heroin was nothing compared to getting off out of

1:28:46.040 --> 1:28:49.640
<v Speaker 1>man getting off opiates. Even if you know, I just know,

1:28:49.720 --> 1:28:52.920
<v Speaker 1>if I have an operation, whatever I'm taking opiates, there's

1:28:52.960 --> 1:28:56.120
<v Speaker 1>gonna be one night where I just cannot fall asleep

1:28:56.160 --> 1:29:01.120
<v Speaker 1>at when I'm stopping them. Okay, so you talk about

1:29:01.160 --> 1:29:04.639
<v Speaker 1>going cold Turkey a number of times just because drugs

1:29:04.640 --> 1:29:09.320
<v Speaker 1>aren't even available. Never at that time do you say

1:29:09.360 --> 1:29:12.120
<v Speaker 1>that was such a painful process. I'm going to think

1:29:12.120 --> 1:29:13.639
<v Speaker 1>twice before I start again.

1:29:15.280 --> 1:29:22.240
<v Speaker 2>You are again applying this notion that logic and intellect

1:29:22.520 --> 1:29:27.000
<v Speaker 2>plays a factor. And I understand why one might feel

1:29:27.000 --> 1:29:32.880
<v Speaker 2>compelled to do that, but for me, it was never.

1:29:33.120 --> 1:29:36.439
<v Speaker 2>You know, I think you know, I considered myself all

1:29:36.479 --> 1:29:40.320
<v Speaker 2>along to be a relatively intelligent guy. It wasn't a

1:29:40.360 --> 1:29:46.280
<v Speaker 2>matter of don't touch the stove because last time you

1:29:46.360 --> 1:29:50.599
<v Speaker 2>touched it, it burned you. You know, the addict's brain

1:29:50.760 --> 1:29:53.200
<v Speaker 2>tells you, h, well, it's not going to burn you

1:29:53.240 --> 1:29:55.320
<v Speaker 2>this time, and you really should touch it.

1:29:56.600 --> 1:29:58.320
<v Speaker 1>And what did your parents say about your addiction?

1:30:00.120 --> 1:30:06.000
<v Speaker 2>Well, they were well. My father passed away while I

1:30:06.120 --> 1:30:08.160
<v Speaker 2>was in treatment. The first time I ever went to treatment,

1:30:08.240 --> 1:30:11.280
<v Speaker 2>which I talk about in the book, was really a

1:30:11.320 --> 1:30:15.640
<v Speaker 2>godsend because the hospital he was in dying in was

1:30:16.080 --> 1:30:17.840
<v Speaker 2>just down the street from the treatment center I was in,

1:30:17.840 --> 1:30:19.120
<v Speaker 2>so I was able to go see him, and I

1:30:19.160 --> 1:30:21.760
<v Speaker 2>was able to go see him during a forty five

1:30:21.840 --> 1:30:24.839
<v Speaker 2>day window that I was not strung out on drugs.

1:30:25.080 --> 1:30:28.040
<v Speaker 2>So my dad and I were very, very very close,

1:30:28.080 --> 1:30:30.160
<v Speaker 2>and he knew I had a problem, and for the

1:30:30.200 --> 1:30:33.160
<v Speaker 2>most part, I managed to still engage with my dad

1:30:33.280 --> 1:30:36.280
<v Speaker 2>in a way that didn't directly confront him with my addiction.

1:30:37.160 --> 1:30:41.280
<v Speaker 2>But for those last couple weeks I was clean. And

1:30:41.320 --> 1:30:43.559
<v Speaker 2>then he passed away, and that was such a gift

1:30:43.600 --> 1:30:45.600
<v Speaker 2>for me. Gosh, it's such a gift for me to

1:30:45.720 --> 1:30:50.479
<v Speaker 2>know that I had that clarity and that pure time

1:30:50.520 --> 1:30:53.519
<v Speaker 2>with my father while he was dying. Such a gift.

1:30:53.560 --> 1:30:56.479
<v Speaker 2>Of course, didn't keep me clean, but I did have

1:30:56.520 --> 1:30:59.080
<v Speaker 2>that window, and that's so valuable to me. It's priceless.

1:31:01.120 --> 1:31:07.280
<v Speaker 2>And your mother, my mother was you know, she was

1:31:07.320 --> 1:31:09.320
<v Speaker 2>probably the only effort. There were times when she was

1:31:09.360 --> 1:31:11.479
<v Speaker 2>probably the only person in the world that believed it,

1:31:11.520 --> 1:31:15.120
<v Speaker 2>that was left that believed in me. She as she

1:31:15.200 --> 1:31:17.720
<v Speaker 2>tells me to this day, my mom's still here and

1:31:18.160 --> 1:31:20.439
<v Speaker 2>she's an incredible woman, and she tells me this today.

1:31:20.479 --> 1:31:22.640
<v Speaker 2>She said, I always knew you were going to make it.

1:31:22.640 --> 1:31:24.280
<v Speaker 2>It was tearing me apart to see what you were

1:31:24.320 --> 1:31:26.120
<v Speaker 2>going through, but I always knew you were going to

1:31:26.160 --> 1:31:26.479
<v Speaker 2>make it.

1:31:27.000 --> 1:31:30.720
<v Speaker 1>Okay, stopping the way in the book, it seems like

1:31:30.800 --> 1:31:35.280
<v Speaker 1>it's a personal decision in twelve step program. Is that accurate.

1:31:36.880 --> 1:31:38.960
<v Speaker 2>Well, I don't want to talk too much about program,

1:31:39.040 --> 1:31:40.920
<v Speaker 2>because you know the program.

1:31:40.960 --> 1:31:42.840
<v Speaker 1>Well, I'm just trying to say I don't need to

1:31:42.880 --> 1:31:45.080
<v Speaker 1>know the specifics. What I'm trying to say is some

1:31:45.160 --> 1:31:49.240
<v Speaker 1>people go to rehab, some people have medical intervention. The

1:31:49.280 --> 1:31:53.120
<v Speaker 1>way the book read, it seemed like the program, along

1:31:53.200 --> 1:31:56.800
<v Speaker 1>with a desire, was all it took to quit permanently.

1:31:57.080 --> 1:31:57.759
<v Speaker 1>Is that true?

1:31:58.439 --> 1:32:03.080
<v Speaker 2>Well, I never say permanently. Good point, I never say permanently.

1:32:03.720 --> 1:32:05.120
<v Speaker 2>I do it a day at a time, and it's

1:32:05.160 --> 1:32:09.040
<v Speaker 2>been five years and eleven months a day to time.

1:32:09.320 --> 1:32:14.800
<v Speaker 2>So I think for me it took this well, as

1:32:14.840 --> 1:32:17.240
<v Speaker 2>we call it, this gift of desperation. I was so

1:32:19.200 --> 1:32:22.200
<v Speaker 2>just dead inside. I was so there was nothing was working.

1:32:22.240 --> 1:32:26.040
<v Speaker 2>I couldn't the relief I was chasing through drugs and

1:32:26.080 --> 1:32:30.040
<v Speaker 2>alcohol was no longer available from drugs and alcohol. And

1:32:30.080 --> 1:32:32.679
<v Speaker 2>after beating my head against that wall so many times

1:32:32.680 --> 1:32:35.840
<v Speaker 2>and not getting in, I finally began to concede that

1:32:35.920 --> 1:32:38.680
<v Speaker 2>this just wasn't working anymore. And it just seemed to

1:32:38.720 --> 1:32:42.720
<v Speaker 2>consistently be not working. So if it wasn't working then,

1:32:42.800 --> 1:32:45.120
<v Speaker 2>I don't know what to do. So what I did

1:32:45.320 --> 1:32:49.040
<v Speaker 2>was I started putting myself around people that had been

1:32:49.080 --> 1:32:51.679
<v Speaker 2>through that as well and just started taking their advice

1:32:51.720 --> 1:32:53.479
<v Speaker 2>and hanging out with them and doing the things that

1:32:53.520 --> 1:32:57.559
<v Speaker 2>they did. And over time, very sort of I was

1:32:57.680 --> 1:33:01.200
<v Speaker 2>angry about it. I was resentful about it. It felt

1:33:01.200 --> 1:33:04.439
<v Speaker 2>like breaking up with a girlfriend that was madly in

1:33:04.479 --> 1:33:09.280
<v Speaker 2>love with. But over time I started collecting a little

1:33:09.280 --> 1:33:11.840
<v Speaker 2>bit of sobriety time and my life started to get better.

1:33:12.560 --> 1:33:16.360
<v Speaker 2>And coincidentally, the woman that I was in a relationship

1:33:16.360 --> 1:33:19.880
<v Speaker 2>with was doing that across the Atlantic at the same

1:33:19.920 --> 1:33:23.599
<v Speaker 2>time as me, and we, you know, we're she's down

1:33:23.640 --> 1:33:26.040
<v Speaker 2>the hall. We're married today, we have we have a

1:33:26.160 --> 1:33:30.880
<v Speaker 2>child together, and we you know, reflect on that time

1:33:30.920 --> 1:33:34.240
<v Speaker 2>and say, you know, we didn't get sober together. We

1:33:34.280 --> 1:33:35.559
<v Speaker 2>got sober at the same time.

1:33:36.360 --> 1:33:39.759
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you talk about Randy the lead singer, being clean

1:33:39.960 --> 1:33:44.479
<v Speaker 1>when you're addicted. The members of the band listen to

1:33:44.520 --> 1:33:48.880
<v Speaker 1>most bands drink, you know, they party whatever were you

1:33:48.920 --> 1:33:51.400
<v Speaker 1>were addicted. Was there anybody else in the band who

1:33:51.479 --> 1:33:52.040
<v Speaker 1>was addicted?

1:33:53.680 --> 1:33:56.200
<v Speaker 2>I don't I wouldn't answer that if there was, or

1:33:56.240 --> 1:33:58.080
<v Speaker 2>if there wasn't. You know, that's not the kind of

1:33:58.080 --> 1:33:58.719
<v Speaker 2>thing you say.

1:33:58.680 --> 1:34:02.720
<v Speaker 1>That I don't need to know names. I'm asking a

1:34:02.720 --> 1:34:06.200
<v Speaker 1>different question. Are you the lone outsider or is this

1:34:06.360 --> 1:34:07.960
<v Speaker 1>the nature of the act?

1:34:10.040 --> 1:34:14.080
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, I think everyone in our band at

1:34:14.080 --> 1:34:17.519
<v Speaker 2>some point has had their own relationship with alcohol and

1:34:17.720 --> 1:34:25.000
<v Speaker 2>or drugs. You know, Randy is vocally and publicly sober,

1:34:25.040 --> 1:34:25.880
<v Speaker 2>and I am as well.

1:34:34.880 --> 1:34:38.920
<v Speaker 1>Okay, what is the state of metal music today?

1:34:41.200 --> 1:34:44.479
<v Speaker 2>Well, that's a great question. The state of metal music today.

1:34:44.520 --> 1:34:48.840
<v Speaker 2>It's exciting, it's really exciting. There's a lot of young

1:34:48.920 --> 1:34:54.639
<v Speaker 2>bands that I see popping up that are referencing bands

1:34:54.640 --> 1:34:57.280
<v Speaker 2>that I remember when we were coming up, and so

1:34:57.400 --> 1:34:59.800
<v Speaker 2>it's it's I'm old enough where I can see things

1:35:00.120 --> 1:35:02.600
<v Speaker 2>to come back around and see like a lot of

1:35:02.640 --> 1:35:05.520
<v Speaker 2>the Scandinavian influence and a lot of like the symphonic

1:35:06.080 --> 1:35:08.840
<v Speaker 2>Norwegian influence of metal is kind of popping and sort

1:35:08.880 --> 1:35:12.280
<v Speaker 2>of being reformulated and popping up into very hip young

1:35:12.360 --> 1:35:14.840
<v Speaker 2>bands now and seeing that stuff react. A lot of

1:35:14.840 --> 1:35:19.720
<v Speaker 2>the hardcore stuff, the more traditional kind of Northeast hardcore

1:35:20.680 --> 1:35:23.400
<v Speaker 2>sound is getting repurposed and coming up in these young,

1:35:23.479 --> 1:35:27.880
<v Speaker 2>exciting bands, and it's really a thrill to see I

1:35:28.000 --> 1:35:33.799
<v Speaker 2>don't personally spend a lot of time in young heavy

1:35:33.840 --> 1:35:37.759
<v Speaker 2>metal scenes. I'm fifty two years old, I have a family,

1:35:37.920 --> 1:35:41.000
<v Speaker 2>I have, and I also and this is out of

1:35:41.000 --> 1:35:45.559
<v Speaker 2>no disrespect or no disconnection from the music. But I

1:35:45.600 --> 1:35:48.120
<v Speaker 2>will say that, like I always use this example, if

1:35:48.160 --> 1:35:51.000
<v Speaker 2>you make your living running a pizza shop, when you

1:35:51.000 --> 1:35:53.439
<v Speaker 2>have Sunday off, you probably don't order pizza, you know

1:35:53.479 --> 1:35:56.040
<v Speaker 2>what I mean. So I am so connected to metal

1:35:56.120 --> 1:35:59.120
<v Speaker 2>via the band and the music that we make that

1:35:59.200 --> 1:36:02.000
<v Speaker 2>I don't rely pursue a lot of stuff. But I

1:36:02.040 --> 1:36:04.240
<v Speaker 2>do listen from a distance, and I see a lot

1:36:04.240 --> 1:36:07.519
<v Speaker 2>of exciting a lot of exciting metal bands happening.

1:36:07.680 --> 1:36:09.720
<v Speaker 1>Let me put it a different way. I remember when

1:36:09.800 --> 1:36:13.120
<v Speaker 1>led Zeppelin was considered heavy metal and Black Sabbath was

1:36:13.160 --> 1:36:18.240
<v Speaker 1>too far out. Today, if you listen to the format

1:36:18.320 --> 1:36:23.640
<v Speaker 1>active rock, most of the bands I'm generalizing here derivative

1:36:23.720 --> 1:36:27.920
<v Speaker 1>of Metallica, And although Metallica had its moment with the

1:36:27.920 --> 1:36:32.200
<v Speaker 1>Black Album nineteen ninety one with Enter Sandman, et cetera,

1:36:32.280 --> 1:36:37.720
<v Speaker 1>where it matched the mainstream, generally speaking, most of what

1:36:38.800 --> 1:36:42.160
<v Speaker 1>the bands in the bands in that framework, thrash metal,

1:36:42.160 --> 1:36:47.960
<v Speaker 1>et cetera has a wide but does not reach everybody.

1:36:48.040 --> 1:36:52.880
<v Speaker 1>It's sort of its own ghetto. Do you perceive it

1:36:52.960 --> 1:36:55.040
<v Speaker 1>that way?

1:36:55.520 --> 1:36:58.639
<v Speaker 2>Do I perceive thrash metal as being a heavy mate.

1:36:58.800 --> 1:37:01.479
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to make a valet metal different things.

1:37:01.800 --> 1:37:03.200
<v Speaker 1>What I mean, the way I put it is, to

1:37:03.240 --> 1:37:05.720
<v Speaker 1>listen today's medical music, you need a handbook. You have

1:37:05.760 --> 1:37:07.680
<v Speaker 1>to go through the history to get all where it is.

1:37:07.840 --> 1:37:09.920
<v Speaker 1>And if you haven't followed the scene or you're not

1:37:10.080 --> 1:37:12.400
<v Speaker 1>natural the scene, people aren't going to hear a song,

1:37:12.640 --> 1:37:15.439
<v Speaker 1>Oh I like that metal song, It's like they're playing

1:37:15.479 --> 1:37:17.000
<v Speaker 1>it in another universe.

1:37:18.840 --> 1:37:22.120
<v Speaker 2>Well, Bob, I think for guys like me and you

1:37:23.720 --> 1:37:29.439
<v Speaker 2>to to really sort of try and unpack today's metal.

1:37:30.120 --> 1:37:32.800
<v Speaker 2>I don't think we're the target audience, right.

1:37:33.840 --> 1:37:36.240
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to make it that. What I really

1:37:36.280 --> 1:37:40.439
<v Speaker 1>want to say is how large is the metal market

1:37:40.880 --> 1:37:44.719
<v Speaker 1>in general? Old bands, new bands, they go on the road.

1:37:44.880 --> 1:37:47.959
<v Speaker 1>Is it growing? Is it decreasing? What's your perception?

1:37:51.040 --> 1:37:54.439
<v Speaker 2>I think it's really healthy, you know. Would I say,

1:37:54.560 --> 1:37:58.679
<v Speaker 2>has heavy metal ever been bigger? Probably so? But I think,

1:37:58.800 --> 1:38:01.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, I just finished the tour Lamb of God

1:38:01.040 --> 1:38:04.960
<v Speaker 2>finished a tour with Macedon. We had very very well

1:38:04.960 --> 1:38:09.200
<v Speaker 2>attended shows at the LA Forum at Red Rocks in Colorado.

1:38:10.640 --> 1:38:13.320
<v Speaker 2>I within the last year year and a half, I

1:38:13.400 --> 1:38:18.519
<v Speaker 2>played Madison Square Garden, Pantera, and Lamb of God. These

1:38:18.560 --> 1:38:21.640
<v Speaker 2>are huge historic venues, you know, and the fans are

1:38:21.680 --> 1:38:26.160
<v Speaker 2>still coming out. Slip Knot is doing huge numbers and

1:38:26.200 --> 1:38:30.720
<v Speaker 2>they're as heavy as it gets. Really still, metallica is otherworldly.

1:38:30.800 --> 1:38:32.760
<v Speaker 2>I mean, there's you know, as big as you two.

1:38:34.520 --> 1:38:37.599
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, I think it's super healthy, man. I think

1:38:37.800 --> 1:38:40.120
<v Speaker 2>I think it is. I think it's probably easy to

1:38:40.280 --> 1:38:44.040
<v Speaker 2>miss because I don't think that you hear the same

1:38:44.840 --> 1:38:50.439
<v Speaker 2>about these events that you might hear about I don't

1:38:50.479 --> 1:38:53.720
<v Speaker 2>know Morgan Walland, for example, the biggest country star in

1:38:53.760 --> 1:38:57.280
<v Speaker 2>the world right now, or you know any you know,

1:38:57.720 --> 1:38:59.960
<v Speaker 2>any of these sort of crossover pop acts or whatever,

1:39:00.080 --> 1:39:03.800
<v Speaker 2>or they get maybe they get more visible attention. But

1:39:03.880 --> 1:39:07.320
<v Speaker 2>I think there's huge things going on in metal, and

1:39:07.360 --> 1:39:10.519
<v Speaker 2>I think that that the fans are there and they're

1:39:10.720 --> 1:39:11.519
<v Speaker 2>they're showing up.

1:39:12.520 --> 1:39:14.719
<v Speaker 1>Well, can you tell us about the fans of metal?

1:39:16.120 --> 1:39:20.719
<v Speaker 2>The fans of metal are lifers. Is it's a lifestyle music.

1:39:22.240 --> 1:39:26.519
<v Speaker 2>It's it's something that a real metal head was a

1:39:26.560 --> 1:39:29.160
<v Speaker 2>metal head when they were fifteen, and they're a metal

1:39:29.160 --> 1:39:32.320
<v Speaker 2>head when they're fifty. We do a thing called Headbanger's Boat.

1:39:32.320 --> 1:39:34.120
<v Speaker 2>We do it every year. It's a it's a cruise

1:39:34.160 --> 1:39:36.920
<v Speaker 2>ship and we pack it full of like twenty bands

1:39:36.920 --> 1:39:39.479
<v Speaker 2>and Lamb of God's the headliner. It sells out every year.

1:39:39.520 --> 1:39:42.880
<v Speaker 2>We were on our what are we You're I think

1:39:43.400 --> 1:39:49.240
<v Speaker 2>Herefore we just announced and it's almost sold out, and uh,

1:39:49.280 --> 1:39:52.479
<v Speaker 2>you know it's it's families. It's I see people in

1:39:52.520 --> 1:39:55.639
<v Speaker 2>their fifties bringing their teenage kids and making it a vacation,

1:39:56.400 --> 1:40:00.400
<v Speaker 2>and it's just you realize, I'm reminded in I'm bringing

1:40:00.400 --> 1:40:02.080
<v Speaker 2>this up because we just did it recently, and I'm

1:40:02.120 --> 1:40:05.960
<v Speaker 2>just reminded at what a lifestyle this is, and the

1:40:06.040 --> 1:40:08.080
<v Speaker 2>same way that you know, I told you earlier I'm

1:40:08.080 --> 1:40:11.760
<v Speaker 2>a dead head, grateful dead is the lifestyle, right, it's not.

1:40:11.960 --> 1:40:14.200
<v Speaker 2>It is the music, but it's also there's kind of

1:40:14.200 --> 1:40:18.479
<v Speaker 2>a culture around it, and heavy metal is that way.

1:40:18.760 --> 1:40:21.720
<v Speaker 2>It's that way the fans recognize each other and there's

1:40:21.720 --> 1:40:27.519
<v Speaker 2>a familial kind of relationship between metal heads and metal fans,

1:40:27.560 --> 1:40:30.519
<v Speaker 2>and and you know it's not specific to that. Punk

1:40:30.560 --> 1:40:33.599
<v Speaker 2>Rocket is very much the same way, but it's just

1:40:33.640 --> 1:40:36.639
<v Speaker 2>one of those music, one of those genres of music,

1:40:36.680 --> 1:40:41.479
<v Speaker 2>where certainly there are lots of subgenres, but metal fans

1:40:41.520 --> 1:40:42.759
<v Speaker 2>feel a kinship to one another.

1:40:43.280 --> 1:40:48.880
<v Speaker 1>Okay, without mentioning names. Although I know these people historically

1:40:48.880 --> 1:40:52.440
<v Speaker 1>over decades, they have been Republicans, they have been right wingers.

1:40:52.560 --> 1:40:57.040
<v Speaker 1>They may not have been advertised. Again, okay, do you

1:40:57.320 --> 1:41:04.600
<v Speaker 1>find the metal audience more right than left?

1:41:06.000 --> 1:41:11.320
<v Speaker 2>I don't find it to be well, it probably. I

1:41:11.320 --> 1:41:14.200
<v Speaker 2>think it depends where you go. Honestly, I think it

1:41:14.280 --> 1:41:17.080
<v Speaker 2>depends what part of the world you're in, what part

1:41:17.120 --> 1:41:22.400
<v Speaker 2>of the country you're in. I think more than anything, Bob,

1:41:22.439 --> 1:41:26.240
<v Speaker 2>I think again, based on our last point, I think

1:41:26.560 --> 1:41:29.160
<v Speaker 2>metal transcends that. I think for an hour and a

1:41:29.200 --> 1:41:32.240
<v Speaker 2>half at a Lamb of God show, nobody in that

1:41:32.360 --> 1:41:36.840
<v Speaker 2>audience that's got their hands in the air gives a

1:41:36.920 --> 1:41:39.639
<v Speaker 2>hoot about who the guy next to them voted for.

1:41:40.439 --> 1:41:44.360
<v Speaker 2>I think they're hoping that the band plays their favorite song.

1:41:45.439 --> 1:41:49.120
<v Speaker 1>Traditionally, heavy metal has been the sound of the alienated.

1:41:49.680 --> 1:41:56.080
<v Speaker 1>Do you find that, oh?

1:41:56.120 --> 1:42:04.479
<v Speaker 2>I think that there are I think so. I think

1:42:04.560 --> 1:42:07.479
<v Speaker 2>it's a bit counter in the sense that it's never

1:42:07.560 --> 1:42:12.760
<v Speaker 2>been fully popular music. Maybe some versions of it were

1:42:12.800 --> 1:42:17.000
<v Speaker 2>in the eighties. I think there's an underground spirit to

1:42:17.640 --> 1:42:21.519
<v Speaker 2>heavy metal, and I think the imagery and the fashion

1:42:21.560 --> 1:42:24.599
<v Speaker 2>associated with it, I think it all feels a little

1:42:26.800 --> 1:42:29.559
<v Speaker 2>there's a thread to it that people feel a little counter,

1:42:29.640 --> 1:42:34.320
<v Speaker 2>a little outside of the mainstream, and that's probably well,

1:42:34.360 --> 1:42:35.280
<v Speaker 2>that's probably earned.

1:42:36.760 --> 1:42:41.040
<v Speaker 1>Is inherently there a mode between metal and other formats

1:42:41.560 --> 1:42:45.040
<v Speaker 1>or if we lived in the days of MTV too,

1:42:45.320 --> 1:42:48.519
<v Speaker 1>never mind regular MTV when they played videos. Do you

1:42:48.560 --> 1:42:51.680
<v Speaker 1>believe there are certain metal materials, certain metal songs, that

1:42:51.720 --> 1:42:53.840
<v Speaker 1>if people just heard them, they would embrace them?

1:42:54.400 --> 1:42:59.960
<v Speaker 2>Oh? Man, that's a great question. Do I believe that

1:43:00.040 --> 1:43:02.559
<v Speaker 2>a certain metal songs that if people just heard then

1:43:02.600 --> 1:43:08.559
<v Speaker 2>they would embrace me at all? Uh? Yeah, yeah, man,

1:43:08.880 --> 1:43:12.920
<v Speaker 2>I mean Inner Sandman. Have you seen that footage of

1:43:12.960 --> 1:43:15.519
<v Speaker 2>the Virginia Tech football team coming out to Inner Sandman?

1:43:15.560 --> 1:43:17.679
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm trying to say that happens

1:43:17.680 --> 1:43:20.360
<v Speaker 1>in a different era in nineteen ninety one.

1:43:20.560 --> 1:43:23.840
<v Speaker 2>The song did, but the phenomenon around the song is

1:43:24.160 --> 1:43:25.640
<v Speaker 2>modern contemporary.

1:43:25.920 --> 1:43:29.799
<v Speaker 1>I guess. Let me be very clear, bands that started

1:43:30.040 --> 1:43:36.760
<v Speaker 1>post mass exposure this century, are there songs equal to

1:43:36.880 --> 1:43:40.280
<v Speaker 1>innersian Man that if they got the same exposure as

1:43:40.280 --> 1:43:42.280
<v Speaker 1>Inner sand Man, they would have the same adoption.

1:43:44.280 --> 1:43:48.000
<v Speaker 2>Well, inner Sandman is a high as a high benchmark.

1:43:47.479 --> 1:43:49.559
<v Speaker 1>That that's a very high bar. Doesn't have to that's a.

1:43:49.840 --> 1:43:53.679
<v Speaker 2>Very high bar, man. I think that might be up

1:43:54.320 --> 1:43:57.800
<v Speaker 2>you talk about I mean, I'm getting off off the

1:43:57.800 --> 1:44:00.840
<v Speaker 2>monoail here, but we talk about inner sam Man. You're

1:44:00.880 --> 1:44:05.479
<v Speaker 2>talking about you're talking about paranoid, you're talking about breaking

1:44:05.520 --> 1:44:07.719
<v Speaker 2>the law, You're talking about you know what I'm saying.

1:44:07.720 --> 1:44:10.080
<v Speaker 2>That is one of the you're talking about. Smoke on

1:44:10.120 --> 1:44:14.680
<v Speaker 2>the Water your Dad is like one a classic, classic,

1:44:15.479 --> 1:44:20.519
<v Speaker 2>legendary zeitgeist capturing song. I wonder, man, I would love

1:44:20.560 --> 1:44:26.120
<v Speaker 2>to know if those guys felt that lightning the first

1:44:26.120 --> 1:44:28.320
<v Speaker 2>time they heard back a mix of that or the

1:44:28.360 --> 1:44:30.760
<v Speaker 2>basic tracks of that come up, because it's just it's

1:44:30.800 --> 1:44:33.759
<v Speaker 2>not even my favorite Metallica song, frankly, but you cannot

1:44:33.840 --> 1:44:37.120
<v Speaker 2>deny and if this is what you're talking about, you

1:44:37.160 --> 1:44:41.200
<v Speaker 2>can't deny that the universal connection and power to that song, right,

1:44:42.880 --> 1:44:45.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. Is there another song? Are you asking me?

1:44:45.840 --> 1:44:47.320
<v Speaker 2>Is there a song like that? Sense?

1:44:48.320 --> 1:44:51.080
<v Speaker 1>Is there a song out there played by metal acts

1:44:51.120 --> 1:44:54.640
<v Speaker 1>today that if they were exposed they would have the

1:44:54.720 --> 1:44:59.880
<v Speaker 1>same level of acceptance or is the music so self rent,

1:45:00.160 --> 1:45:03.439
<v Speaker 1>rential and different than really that's not going to happen.

1:45:03.960 --> 1:45:06.719
<v Speaker 2>Oh, it'll happen again. It'll happen again.

1:45:07.680 --> 1:45:11.720
<v Speaker 1>Okay, moving on to what degree? To what degree are

1:45:11.760 --> 1:45:14.439
<v Speaker 1>you on social media and to what degree do you

1:45:14.560 --> 1:45:18.280
<v Speaker 1>interact and know your fans.

1:45:19.080 --> 1:45:23.639
<v Speaker 2>I am on well, I used to be on Twitter

1:45:23.800 --> 1:45:25.320
<v Speaker 2>some years ago. I was on there quite a bit,

1:45:25.360 --> 1:45:29.360
<v Speaker 2>and I just, man, it just really was. It was

1:45:29.400 --> 1:45:32.000
<v Speaker 2>a strange addiction because I would catch myself on there

1:45:32.120 --> 1:45:38.639
<v Speaker 2>arguing with people. So I'm not on that platform it's

1:45:38.680 --> 1:45:40.680
<v Speaker 2>called X Now, I'm not on that platform here as much.

1:45:40.680 --> 1:45:43.120
<v Speaker 2>I'm not on Facebook hardly at all. I do post

1:45:43.560 --> 1:45:47.920
<v Speaker 2>pretty regularly on Instagram, and most of my Instagram has

1:45:48.000 --> 1:45:51.640
<v Speaker 2>to do with vintage guitars and gear. I'm kind of

1:45:51.640 --> 1:45:54.880
<v Speaker 2>a gear nerd, and we also do a little bit

1:45:54.920 --> 1:45:58.000
<v Speaker 2>of homesteading and kind of farm chicken kind of stuff

1:45:58.040 --> 1:46:03.400
<v Speaker 2>around here. So my Instagram is largely just scenes from

1:46:03.400 --> 1:46:08.280
<v Speaker 2>my home and and then kind of gear nerding. But

1:46:08.320 --> 1:46:11.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm on it quite a bit. My platform is it's

1:46:11.960 --> 1:46:14.479
<v Speaker 2>I'd say it's reason reasonably known. It's I think my

1:46:14.520 --> 1:46:16.360
<v Speaker 2>Instagram accounts about a hundred thousand people.

1:46:17.240 --> 1:46:22.040
<v Speaker 1>So you know, bands have arcs, they tend not to

1:46:22.080 --> 1:46:26.559
<v Speaker 1>have the same level of success consistently. To what degree

1:46:26.560 --> 1:46:29.920
<v Speaker 1>are you concerned with maintaining audience and what is the

1:46:29.960 --> 1:46:32.320
<v Speaker 1>status of Lamb of God today.

1:46:35.840 --> 1:46:41.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm not concerned with maintaining audience. I'm grateful that we do.

1:46:42.000 --> 1:46:46.599
<v Speaker 2>I think we have flirted at times over the course

1:46:46.640 --> 1:46:51.280
<v Speaker 2>of our career, flirted with just dipped our toe in

1:46:51.320 --> 1:46:54.360
<v Speaker 2>the water of like starting to make decisions based on

1:46:54.439 --> 1:46:57.160
<v Speaker 2>what we think our fans might want to hear, or

1:46:57.160 --> 1:46:59.600
<v Speaker 2>what they might or maybe sometimes even doing something that

1:47:00.120 --> 1:47:02.120
<v Speaker 2>we think they expect. One thing, so let's do this

1:47:02.360 --> 1:47:06.920
<v Speaker 2>and and and that starts feeling really unnatural, and we

1:47:06.960 --> 1:47:12.080
<v Speaker 2>really try to avoid that, so I don't we don't

1:47:12.240 --> 1:47:15.799
<v Speaker 2>make choices in the band with the fans in mind.

1:47:16.000 --> 1:47:19.120
<v Speaker 2>That sounds off putting, but it's I think it's really

1:47:19.160 --> 1:47:23.240
<v Speaker 2>in an effort to stay pure and stay generine, stay genuine.

1:47:23.640 --> 1:47:28.160
<v Speaker 2>But I do. Uh. I'm astounded again. I talked about

1:47:28.160 --> 1:47:30.000
<v Speaker 2>this story we just did. I see I see parents

1:47:30.080 --> 1:47:32.880
<v Speaker 2>bringing their children, and I see fourteen year old kids

1:47:32.920 --> 1:47:36.880
<v Speaker 2>with Lamba gotchers On singing songs that we recorded, you know,

1:47:36.920 --> 1:47:41.160
<v Speaker 2>when they were two years old, and I'm just nothing.

1:47:41.280 --> 1:47:43.919
<v Speaker 2>It's just the greatest, you know, besides like my children

1:47:43.960 --> 1:47:46.400
<v Speaker 2>and my family. It's the greatest joy in my life

1:47:46.479 --> 1:47:52.040
<v Speaker 2>to see fathers making connections with their kids on the

1:47:52.040 --> 1:47:54.439
<v Speaker 2>front barricade of a LAMB show and just the joy

1:47:54.479 --> 1:47:56.120
<v Speaker 2>in their eyes when the lights come up, and seeing

1:47:56.160 --> 1:48:00.400
<v Speaker 2>them scream the songs together. And I'm just astounded at that.

1:48:00.479 --> 1:48:03.240
<v Speaker 2>I get to be a part of that small little system,

1:48:03.280 --> 1:48:07.000
<v Speaker 2>that circle that happens there, and so I know that

1:48:07.080 --> 1:48:09.840
<v Speaker 2>we're creating new fans, or that new fans are being created,

1:48:10.400 --> 1:48:12.519
<v Speaker 2>and I know that it's so much bigger than me

1:48:12.800 --> 1:48:15.679
<v Speaker 2>or even the five of us, or even that song

1:48:15.840 --> 1:48:18.920
<v Speaker 2>or whatever. It's just such a it's such as really

1:48:19.040 --> 1:48:21.080
<v Speaker 2>I'm kind of hippy man, but it really is just

1:48:21.120 --> 1:48:24.400
<v Speaker 2>sort of the supernatural, kind of spiritual phenomenon that music

1:48:24.520 --> 1:48:27.720
<v Speaker 2>has that connection between people. And so I get to

1:48:27.760 --> 1:48:29.320
<v Speaker 2>see that, I get to witness it, I get to

1:48:29.360 --> 1:48:31.360
<v Speaker 2>be a part of it, and I'm just thrilled by it.

1:48:32.360 --> 1:48:36.719
<v Speaker 1>Okay, in the book, you talk about yourself and another

1:48:36.800 --> 1:48:41.560
<v Speaker 1>band member not going on certain tours for certain reasons,

1:48:41.680 --> 1:48:47.400
<v Speaker 1>usually good reasons. Frequently that ends a band. How does

1:48:47.439 --> 1:48:49.439
<v Speaker 1>everybody feel when you say, well, you know, I'm gonna

1:48:49.439 --> 1:48:51.760
<v Speaker 1>sit this one out, or we gotta sit that person down,

1:48:51.840 --> 1:48:52.840
<v Speaker 1>or they're gonna come back.

1:48:54.800 --> 1:48:57.920
<v Speaker 2>I just don't know why it should end a band,

1:48:58.160 --> 1:49:01.599
<v Speaker 2>or it should end someone's participation in a band. But

1:49:01.640 --> 1:49:03.800
<v Speaker 2>maybe I take it for granted that the level of

1:49:03.840 --> 1:49:06.599
<v Speaker 2>support and the level of brotherhood that we feel amongst

1:49:06.600 --> 1:49:09.400
<v Speaker 2>ourselves is that sometimes your life is more important than

1:49:09.439 --> 1:49:11.880
<v Speaker 2>your life as a member of Lamb of God, and

1:49:11.920 --> 1:49:14.519
<v Speaker 2>sometimes you have something going on that you need to

1:49:14.520 --> 1:49:20.000
<v Speaker 2>be available for that prohibits you from taking your seat

1:49:20.280 --> 1:49:23.000
<v Speaker 2>in whatever this thing we have is going on, and

1:49:23.040 --> 1:49:25.200
<v Speaker 2>we find ways around that, We find ways to love

1:49:25.200 --> 1:49:26.040
<v Speaker 2>and support each other.

1:49:27.680 --> 1:49:31.680
<v Speaker 1>At this point in time, have you been financially successful

1:49:31.840 --> 1:49:34.400
<v Speaker 1>enough with the Lamb of God that if you wanted

1:49:34.400 --> 1:49:36.280
<v Speaker 1>to call it a day today, that you have enough

1:49:36.320 --> 1:49:37.400
<v Speaker 1>money to get to the end.

1:49:40.920 --> 1:49:43.559
<v Speaker 2>I think so. I think I would probably have to

1:49:45.040 --> 1:49:51.160
<v Speaker 2>adjust some things about my lifestyle, but I could probably

1:49:51.400 --> 1:49:52.479
<v Speaker 2>figure that out if I had to.

1:49:54.040 --> 1:49:57.280
<v Speaker 1>Okay, a lot of bands, as time goes on, they

1:49:57.360 --> 1:49:59.519
<v Speaker 1>work less. In the book you're talking about when the

1:49:59.520 --> 1:50:02.559
<v Speaker 1>band is really starting to break, as Lamb of God

1:50:02.600 --> 1:50:05.200
<v Speaker 1>as supposed to burn the priest. You're work in morning, noon,

1:50:05.240 --> 1:50:09.160
<v Speaker 1>and night, what's the philosophy today in terms of how

1:50:09.240 --> 1:50:14.320
<v Speaker 1>much you work hiatus, solo albums, solo tours.

1:50:15.160 --> 1:50:18.880
<v Speaker 2>So with with Lamb of God, it's a collective and

1:50:19.160 --> 1:50:22.320
<v Speaker 2>it's it's you know, everyone has a voice, and we

1:50:22.400 --> 1:50:25.800
<v Speaker 2>talk about as tour opportunities get presented to us, we

1:50:25.840 --> 1:50:29.000
<v Speaker 2>talk about how long we've been on a cycle or

1:50:29.160 --> 1:50:31.720
<v Speaker 2>how many times we've played in that you know, that

1:50:32.479 --> 1:50:35.320
<v Speaker 2>continent or that territory, and is it do we want

1:50:35.320 --> 1:50:37.599
<v Speaker 2>to go back again? And do we want to take

1:50:37.600 --> 1:50:40.160
<v Speaker 2>a break, how we're feeling creatively, do we feel like

1:50:40.200 --> 1:50:41.840
<v Speaker 2>we have material piling up? Is it time for us

1:50:41.880 --> 1:50:43.880
<v Speaker 2>to start thinking about compiling new material and getting a

1:50:43.880 --> 1:50:46.679
<v Speaker 2>record together. So those are all things we could just consider.

1:50:46.840 --> 1:50:51.200
<v Speaker 2>And tours are usually these days, you know, discussed and

1:50:51.760 --> 1:50:54.479
<v Speaker 2>starting to get planning a year out. So I always

1:50:54.560 --> 1:50:57.720
<v Speaker 2>know almost at any given time with LAMB what my

1:50:57.960 --> 1:51:00.679
<v Speaker 2>next eighteen months is going to look like. And that's

1:51:00.720 --> 1:51:03.720
<v Speaker 2>a conversation we have internally. We have great management, we

1:51:03.760 --> 1:51:06.679
<v Speaker 2>have a great booking agent, great team around all that stuff.

1:51:06.720 --> 1:51:09.759
<v Speaker 2>So those are things conversations that are always happening about

1:51:10.080 --> 1:51:14.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, you know, I have discussions today about what

1:51:14.840 --> 1:51:17.120
<v Speaker 2>we might be doing or may or may not be

1:51:17.120 --> 1:51:19.439
<v Speaker 2>doing in twenty twenty six, right, So we kind of

1:51:19.479 --> 1:51:21.679
<v Speaker 2>are always ahead of ourselves and that look forward thinking

1:51:21.720 --> 1:51:26.040
<v Speaker 2>that way, and the decisions are made collectively as time

1:51:26.080 --> 1:51:28.840
<v Speaker 2>goes on. Yeah, I am interested in you know, there

1:51:28.880 --> 1:51:30.600
<v Speaker 2>were in those early days. I wanted to be on

1:51:30.600 --> 1:51:32.200
<v Speaker 2>the road when we first got one, and I wanted

1:51:32.240 --> 1:51:35.799
<v Speaker 2>to be on the road all the time, just because

1:51:36.000 --> 1:51:38.559
<v Speaker 2>my mindset was different. And that was twenty years ago

1:51:38.600 --> 1:51:41.680
<v Speaker 2>and I was a much younger man, and my responsibilities

1:51:41.720 --> 1:51:44.960
<v Speaker 2>and my whole lifestyle was completely different. And these days

1:51:44.960 --> 1:51:47.400
<v Speaker 2>it's it's you know, it's different. I have children, I

1:51:47.760 --> 1:51:50.640
<v Speaker 2>have a young daughter, I have a teenage daughter, I

1:51:50.680 --> 1:51:53.000
<v Speaker 2>have a wife, I have a home, I have all

1:51:53.000 --> 1:51:54.840
<v Speaker 2>these relationships and all these things that are that are

1:51:54.880 --> 1:51:58.400
<v Speaker 2>high priority to me. The band is as well, So

1:51:58.439 --> 1:52:01.879
<v Speaker 2>it's about fine. I think, you know, home life, homework

1:52:01.960 --> 1:52:05.320
<v Speaker 2>balance is something that everyone probably struggles with most people,

1:52:06.160 --> 1:52:08.920
<v Speaker 2>and that's no different for us with solo stuff. As

1:52:08.920 --> 1:52:12.040
<v Speaker 2>you brought up. That is something that I just went

1:52:12.160 --> 1:52:15.559
<v Speaker 2>on this complete tear, and I think some of it

1:52:15.600 --> 1:52:17.960
<v Speaker 2>has to do with sobriety. I wrote the book and

1:52:18.000 --> 1:52:20.680
<v Speaker 2>I've worked on a bunch of solo music recently, and

1:52:20.800 --> 1:52:23.960
<v Speaker 2>it's just kind of like just purging all this creative

1:52:24.080 --> 1:52:28.040
<v Speaker 2>energy out and it's been super productive and super fun,

1:52:28.080 --> 1:52:31.760
<v Speaker 2>and I'm ready to let all that stuff get out

1:52:31.800 --> 1:52:36.240
<v Speaker 2>into the world and happen, and you know, just enjoy

1:52:36.280 --> 1:52:38.400
<v Speaker 2>the fact that I was able to be a part

1:52:38.479 --> 1:52:40.880
<v Speaker 2>and be in some of those rooms.

1:52:41.200 --> 1:52:44.400
<v Speaker 1>In a man that's on the road so much. What's

1:52:44.439 --> 1:52:47.280
<v Speaker 1>the key to maintaining your relationship.

1:52:49.200 --> 1:52:55.360
<v Speaker 2>Well, to be available and to stay engaged. And for me,

1:52:55.920 --> 1:52:57.680
<v Speaker 2>the key to all of it is to have an

1:52:57.720 --> 1:53:03.639
<v Speaker 2>identity and maintain an identity and maintain a life that

1:53:03.760 --> 1:53:08.960
<v Speaker 2>exists outside of the band, both you know, in real

1:53:09.040 --> 1:53:16.320
<v Speaker 2>terms and practical terms and also mentally. I love my

1:53:16.479 --> 1:53:18.320
<v Speaker 2>role in Lamb of God. I love Lamb of God.

1:53:18.360 --> 1:53:21.320
<v Speaker 2>I love everything that we get to do, and I

1:53:21.439 --> 1:53:26.480
<v Speaker 2>exist wholly and completely outside of it as well. And

1:53:26.560 --> 1:53:29.960
<v Speaker 2>for me, with my kids and my wife and my

1:53:30.080 --> 1:53:35.760
<v Speaker 2>home life, Lamb of God doesn't necessarily come up all

1:53:35.800 --> 1:53:36.840
<v Speaker 2>the time, you know.

1:53:37.560 --> 1:53:41.719
<v Speaker 1>So you've had incredible success. You've gone on the record

1:53:42.439 --> 1:53:45.559
<v Speaker 1>that you didn't anticipate that this music would have as

1:53:45.600 --> 1:53:49.600
<v Speaker 1>wide of acceptance as it does. To the degree you

1:53:49.720 --> 1:53:53.040
<v Speaker 1>look forward, what's the dream going forward.

1:53:56.760 --> 1:54:02.640
<v Speaker 2>Well, I appreciate that question, and I think for me

1:54:04.320 --> 1:54:09.040
<v Speaker 2>the dream is to just continue creating music that I

1:54:09.160 --> 1:54:14.240
<v Speaker 2>enjoy making and to be able to help maybe help

1:54:14.320 --> 1:54:17.120
<v Speaker 2>other people write songs. I've had the chance to work

1:54:17.200 --> 1:54:21.400
<v Speaker 2>with other artists and putting their thing together, younger artists

1:54:21.439 --> 1:54:25.240
<v Speaker 2>and people kind of up and coming trying to create

1:54:25.520 --> 1:54:29.600
<v Speaker 2>their own career, and I really really love being a

1:54:29.600 --> 1:54:33.520
<v Speaker 2>part of that stuff. And I love being, you know,

1:54:34.080 --> 1:54:38.360
<v Speaker 2>the elder experienced guy in the room. That's a lot

1:54:38.360 --> 1:54:43.919
<v Speaker 2>of fun. And I love creating, writing and producing with artists.

1:54:44.120 --> 1:54:46.440
<v Speaker 2>When it's not my thing that I'm going to perform,

1:54:46.720 --> 1:54:48.720
<v Speaker 2>that's really exciting to me. And when I get a

1:54:48.800 --> 1:54:51.560
<v Speaker 2>chance to do that stuff, I always find it very

1:54:51.600 --> 1:54:55.760
<v Speaker 2>fulfilling and it's something I would love to continue doing.

1:54:57.320 --> 1:55:00.200
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Mark, I think we've covered it for now. For

1:55:00.280 --> 1:55:04.200
<v Speaker 1>those of you who want more detailed, much more detail,

1:55:04.400 --> 1:55:09.680
<v Speaker 1>you can get Mark's book, Desolation really holds no punches.

1:55:09.920 --> 1:55:11.720
<v Speaker 1>I want to thank you for taking this time with

1:55:11.800 --> 1:55:12.440
<v Speaker 1>my audience.

1:55:13.240 --> 1:55:15.440
<v Speaker 2>I appreciate you, Bob, thanks for the opportunity. I really

1:55:15.480 --> 1:55:16.440
<v Speaker 2>invite before.

1:55:17.400 --> 1:55:19.960
<v Speaker 1>Until next time. This is Bob left Stets