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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Leftstetch Podcast. My

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Speaker 1: guest today is Mark Warton, Lamb of God. He's got

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Speaker 1: a new memoir, Desolation. Mark. Why the memoir? Why? Now?

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Speaker 2: I wish I had a snappy answer for that. It

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Speaker 2: was really kind of, honestly, a dare from a friend

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Speaker 2: of mine who wound up being my co writer. He

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Speaker 2: didn't really write on the book. He more cleaned up

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Speaker 2: my stuff. But I guess that's the closest thing we

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Speaker 2: could name it as a co writer. But we were

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Speaker 2: friends before this, and we talked a fair amount, and

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Speaker 2: we were at the beach. He has a place down

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Speaker 2: in the Outer Banks, and my family and I go

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Speaker 2: down there quite a bit to that area, and we

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Speaker 2: were hanging out drinking coffee, and I was telling the

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Speaker 2: story and he was like, man, I think you really

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Speaker 2: got a book in you, and we just kind of

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Speaker 2: with a laugh, agreed to write a sample chapter. And

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Speaker 2: that sample chapter got us a book deal. So then

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Speaker 2: I reached this crossroads of like, okay, well you know

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Speaker 2: that was a fun chapter, right, and now I have

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Speaker 2: this deal offer, Am I really going to write a book? And?

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Speaker 2: I guess I don't guess the answer was, in fact, yes, Bob.

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Speaker 1: So how long ago did you write that sample chapter?

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Speaker 2: That's a good question. I don't know it was several

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Speaker 2: years ago, it because it took me about two years

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Speaker 2: to write the book, and I would say that was

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Speaker 2: probably six months before.

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Speaker 1: So you say that you literally wrote the book, the

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Speaker 1: guy essentially just edit it. You sat down there at

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Speaker 1: either of you wrote it.

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Speaker 2: I wrote every single word.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people find it difficult to write. How

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Speaker 1: did you find it?

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Speaker 2: I found it. I found it all the things, So

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Speaker 2: it was it was difficult. Some of the stuff, I

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Speaker 2: will say was a little bit difficult to write about.

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Speaker 2: Some of the book was a joy to write about.

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Speaker 2: And I found myself chuckling out loud as I was

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Speaker 2: writing stuff because it just brings back, you know, it's

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Speaker 2: a memoir, so it's things that have happened in my life,

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Speaker 2: and it brings back this flood of a lot of

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Speaker 2: really really fond memories, a lot of funny stuff. There's

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Speaker 2: a lot of you know, there's tragedy, and there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of dark stuff in my story as well, and

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Speaker 2: I covered a lot of that pretty in depth. So

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Speaker 2: some of that was challenging to write. About There were

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Speaker 2: a few chapters, a couple chapters, but specifically when I

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Speaker 2: was writing them, I was in a bad mood for

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Speaker 2: those few days. One kind of funny and unexpected, although

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Speaker 2: only unexpected because I didn't think about it. Challenge is

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Speaker 2: that I don't type very well at all. I just simply,

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Speaker 2: on a very practical level, can't type. So that made

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Speaker 2: for a real challenging write because you have to type.

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Speaker 2: I'm the one writing everything, so it really would. My

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Speaker 2: wife would make fun of me. I would go up

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Speaker 2: to my studio and say, I'm just gonna write five

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Speaker 2: hundred thousand words to day, and I'd be up there

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Speaker 2: for a couple of hours. Or what is what are

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Speaker 2: you doing up there? Like hint, pecking away at this book?

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Speaker 1: Well, by the time you were done, were you a

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Speaker 1: better typist?

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Speaker 2: I think I must have been. Yeah, I must have been.

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Speaker 2: I don't think I'm a very I'm still a very

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Speaker 2: conventional typist, but I can. I can bang out some words, okay.

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Speaker 1: In the sample, a lot of the book has to

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Speaker 1: do with drug addiction. Was the sample heavy on the

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Speaker 1: drug addiction and Hashet, which is a very major publisher,

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Speaker 1: wanted to buy it because of that story or was

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Speaker 1: it more that they were good buy it because you

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Speaker 1: were and liamb of.

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Speaker 2: God, Well, I never really asked them, Bob. I would

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Speaker 2: imagine from what I've learned in this process is that

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Speaker 2: in the modern day book world, much like I think

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Speaker 2: in the modern day music world, I think whoever is

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Speaker 2: making these decisions is quantifying someone's social media presence, quantifying

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Speaker 2: whatever their marketing value is in their given field. And

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Speaker 2: I'm sure they have algorithms or formulas that help them

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Speaker 2: predict how successful something is going to be commercially. I

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Speaker 2: can't imagine that they didn't plug in those types of

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Speaker 2: things for me, with music and social media and that

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Speaker 2: kind of thing, and come up with the fact that

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Speaker 2: they could probably market some books. No one told me that.

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Speaker 2: I'm just guessing that, And then hopefully they thought that

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Speaker 2: it was a good sample chapter and that it was intriguing.

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Speaker 2: The gentleman that that signed me to the book deal

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Speaker 2: was certainly very entertained by the chapter that the chapter

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Speaker 2: that I turned in as a sample was. If you've

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Speaker 2: read the book, it's a chapter about me being on

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Speaker 2: tour in Europe and being in this beautiful alpine setting

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Speaker 2: on a day off and instead of doing the things

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Speaker 2: that any noise normal person would do in that setting

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Speaker 2: and taking in the sites and enjoying the environment, I

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Speaker 2: was focused on some real hair brained idea on how

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Speaker 2: I was going to create a high for myself that day.

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Speaker 2: And it really it's parts of that story are kind

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Speaker 2: of funny, and then parts of it are really very

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Speaker 2: sad because it represents the way that addiction just completely

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Speaker 2: takes over your mindset and very much possesses you to

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Speaker 2: the point where you can't really see reality as it

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Speaker 2: is because you're just chasing this solution to a problem

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Speaker 2: that you keep creating for yourself.

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Speaker 1: So, now that the book has been out, what has

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Speaker 1: been your.

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Speaker 2: Experience, Well, my experience with the book and the feedback

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Speaker 2: I've gotten has been a lot of people have come

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Speaker 2: to me and say that the book really touched them.

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Speaker 2: And I think, Bob, this story is not just about

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Speaker 2: alcoholism and drug addiction, and that's certainly a component of it.

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Speaker 2: There's a several stories going on in the book. And

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Speaker 2: I didn't have an intention for this when I sat

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Speaker 2: down to write it. I honestly didn't know exactly what

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Speaker 2: I was going to write. And I'm like that with

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Speaker 2: music as well. A lot of times I'll sit down

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Speaker 2: and I won't necessarily have a plan. I'll just kind

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Speaker 2: of start poking around and see if something starts taking

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Speaker 2: shape and coming into form. And I wrote each of

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Speaker 2: these chapters very much the same way, although of course

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Speaker 2: I had the guide of time of sequence of timelines

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Speaker 2: to help guide me. So, you know, a lot of

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Speaker 2: people talk to me about the alcoholism and the addiction

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Speaker 2: and the recovery component of the book, and that is

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Speaker 2: certainly one of the storylines in there. There's also the

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Speaker 2: storyline about navigating and grieving the loss of my infant daughter,

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Speaker 2: which was a part of the book that was real

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Speaker 2: difficult to get through for me to write. Although it's

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Speaker 2: my story and I live with them, I'm very familiar

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Speaker 2: with it, writing about it in detail was challenging, and

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Speaker 2: I think I was pretty authentic and honest through that.

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Speaker 2: And there are people that share that unfortunate experience that

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Speaker 2: have come to me and talk to me about what

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Speaker 2: that meant to them to read my telling of my

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Speaker 2: experience with that. And then there's the story of the

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Speaker 2: really very very unlikely success of a basement metal band

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Speaker 2: that should have, you know, on paper, probably never even

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Speaker 2: made it out of our hometown, but was able to

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Speaker 2: a lot of times, in spite of ourselves, create a

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Speaker 2: really exciting and really thriving career in heavy metal music worldwide.

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Speaker 2: And it's a real unlikely story and one that we

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Speaker 2: still collectively get a kick out of ourselves. And I

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Speaker 2: think it's a fun read that part of it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, one thing that's me in the book. Because you're

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Speaker 1: grown up in Williamsburg and you're gonna go to college,

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Speaker 1: you're a reluctant to go to college. You go to Richmond,

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Speaker 1: you feel sort of out of place, you make a friend, whatever,

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Speaker 1: But not only you finish college, you end up going

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Speaker 1: to graduate school in Chicago. Okay, you've been around. I've

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Speaker 1: been around. That is not the common route of a

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Speaker 1: heavy metal musician, of any successful musician.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's a few of us out there that were

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Speaker 2: sort of simultaneously pursuing education. I think when when you're

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Speaker 2: playing music, particularly any kind of underground punk rock or

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Speaker 2: heavy metal music, but probably just music in general. I

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Speaker 2: think when you're playing music, you're always met with this

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Speaker 2: voice or voices that are telling you you'll never make it.

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Speaker 2: It's one in a million. Think of how many people

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Speaker 2: would love to make it in music, be a rock

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Speaker 2: star however you want to, you know, can't characterize that

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Speaker 2: it's like hitting the lottery. And the truth is a

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Speaker 2: lot of that is true, you know, So the whole

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Speaker 2: time you're pursuing music, I think for me, and I

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Speaker 2: think for a lot of people, because I've heard this

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Speaker 2: from a lot of people too, that psychologically you're you're

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Speaker 2: constantly battling this notion that you were trying to achieve

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Speaker 2: the possible, or you're wasting your time, or you're deprioritizing

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Speaker 2: things that you should be prioritizing. You're supposed to go

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Speaker 2: get a career for yourself, so you're supposed to, you know,

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Speaker 2: find some stable job and do the thing that we're

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Speaker 2: all told and socialized that we need to do. And

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Speaker 2: that was true for me, So I think I was

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Speaker 2: always kind of spinning plates, pursuing this music thing that

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Speaker 2: I'd love so dearly and as it turns out, really

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Speaker 2: couldn't have ever not done, but also trying to cobble

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Speaker 2: together some version of a backup plan for myself so

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Speaker 2: that I could feel like I wasn't going to wind up,

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Speaker 2: you know, sleeping in a car somewhere for very long anyway,

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Speaker 2: and so there's a story in there as well, even

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Speaker 2: during college where I or after college after I think

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Speaker 2: it was after Yeah, after I dropped out of grad school,

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Speaker 2: I came back home and I'm doing music, and I'm

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Speaker 2: applying to the fire department because I'm just of this

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Speaker 2: notion that I'm getting too old to be running around

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Speaker 2: making all this noise with this band I'm doing, and

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Speaker 2: I need to get a real job, and so I'm

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Speaker 2: going to cut all my hair off and go get

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Speaker 2: a job as a firefighter. And you know, I got

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Speaker 2: sort of on the way to doing that and had

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Speaker 2: this self realization of just I'm just never going to

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Speaker 2: be a normal nine to five or kind of guy.

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Speaker 2: And if I am, it's I'm not. I'm going to

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Speaker 2: make sure it's not. Because I didn't pursue this all

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Speaker 2: the way to the even though I didn't know what

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Speaker 2: pursuing this meant, because for us, for Lamb of God,

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Speaker 2: every step of the way seems so unlikely and so

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Speaker 2: unrealistic because our music was just so extreme that it

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Speaker 2: never seemed like the kind of thing to any of

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Speaker 2: us that would land us on tour buses and arenas

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Speaker 2: and opening from Metallica and doing all these amazing things

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Speaker 2: that we've gotten to and continue to get to do.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you're growing to graduate school when you're looking to

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Speaker 1: sell out. Why a firefighter as opposed to any other career.

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Speaker 2: Well, I my brother was a firefighter. He was a

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Speaker 2: career firefighter, and so I was very familiar with fire service,

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Speaker 2: and I thought it was a very very and I

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Speaker 2: still think it is a very, very worthwhile noble cause.

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Speaker 2: And everyone likes who doesn't like a firefighter?

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Speaker 1: Man?

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Speaker 2: They're heroes, right, They run into burning buildings when everybody

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Speaker 2: else is running out of them. That's the kind of

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Speaker 2: guy a lot of us want to be. And I

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Speaker 2: wanted to be that kind of guy too. With grad school.

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Speaker 2: I was really good at school, particularly at college and

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Speaker 2: grad school. I was very good at being a student,

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Speaker 2: and I was pursuing political science and international relations. And

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Speaker 2: it's I think that for me, And this is not

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Speaker 2: a knock to people that do that. I'm sure that

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Speaker 2: there are people that do go on to do very

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Speaker 2: worthwhile things with that. A lot of lawyers start there

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Speaker 2: and that kind of thing, and not that teaching isn't worthwhile.

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Speaker 2: It's very worthwhile. But it's also one of those tracks

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Speaker 2: where it's sort of it creates, it's it's it's it's

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Speaker 2: self fulfilling. Right. You go through college, you go through

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Speaker 2: grad school, and then you just stay in academia and

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Speaker 2: you just become a professor and become a teacher. And

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Speaker 2: that was sort of my thinking as well, I'm pretty

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Speaker 2: good at school, so if I just keep doing school, well,

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Speaker 2: eventually I'll just become school, you know. And so that

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Speaker 2: was one of my backup plans. Wasn't a bad.

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Speaker 1: One, Okay, not only with your degree in your post

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Speaker 1: graduate work and the book, but talking to you right now,

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Speaker 1: you're articulate, you're intelligent, you're educated. Generally speaking, it's a

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Speaker 1: dumb business. So what's it like with a smart guy

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Speaker 1: like you going on the road with all these people.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it's a dumb business at all, Bob.

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Speaker 2: I think some of the practices within the business and

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Speaker 2: some of the business model is dumb. But I find

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Speaker 2: that and maybe I'm lucky. Well I'm certainly lucky. But

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Speaker 2: I think one of the reasons that Lamb of God

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Speaker 2: has had the success we've had is because we are

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Speaker 2: all very deliberate and very intentional, even at times when

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Speaker 2: we were you know, all the cliches of the drinking

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Speaker 2: and the drugging. And I won't speak for anyone but myself,

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Speaker 2: but I certainly, as you would know from the book,

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Speaker 2: have gone off the rails on all that stuff. But

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Speaker 2: even in the cloud of that stuff, there were always

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Speaker 2: when when there was decisions being made, when there were

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Speaker 2: business choices and pursuits that we were focused on. We

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Speaker 2: really have always been very thoughtful and intentful and in

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Speaker 2: large part engaged and intentional about how we are conducting

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Speaker 2: this group that we have. And I don't think that's

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Speaker 2: unique to us. I think at a certain level, you

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Speaker 2: got to believe that, you know, somebody behind making these

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Speaker 2: things successful is doing some thinking.

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Speaker 1: Well, usually the business guy is the drummer, although when

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Speaker 1: you're being you replace the drummer. Who's the business guy?

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Speaker 1: In Lamb of God?

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Speaker 2: Is the business guy? Usually the drummer that's funny, Almost

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Speaker 2: always really yeah, Well, you know, they say, you know,

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Speaker 2: what do you call that? A guy that hangs out

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Speaker 2: with three or four other musicians drummer? Who's the business guy?

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm one of them. I think we

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Speaker 2: do everything very collectively, but sometimes there's a point man,

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Speaker 2: and often on certain things I tend to be that

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Speaker 2: point man, not always.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you talk about growing up in Williamsburg. Many people

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Speaker 1: on the East Coast, including myself, have been there. I've

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Speaker 1: been to the Maze in Williamsburg.

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Speaker 2: Oh cool, that's cool.

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Speaker 1: You know, the first famous musician I think of Williamsburg

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Speaker 1: is Bruce Warnsby. That is not the same kind of

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Speaker 1: music you play, but in nineteen eighty six you become

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Speaker 1: very successful, proving that it can be done. You're living

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Speaker 1: in Williamsburg. Is there any consciousness if this guy from

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Speaker 1: your area is successful?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely? Absolutely. When Bruce hit, it was such a pop sensation,

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Speaker 2: and you know he hit from La but as a

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Speaker 2: very just getting started with music that was very much

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Speaker 2: on my radar. I was in seventh eighth grade. I

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Speaker 2: want to say when that stuff really started hitting for him?

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Speaker 2: And I don't know a lot about Bruce Hornsby's sort

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Speaker 2: of trajectory to get to the point where he had

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Speaker 2: a major label deal and had a hit, but I

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Speaker 2: know he had hit right off of that first record.

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Speaker 2: I got to see him play with the Dead. I'm

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Speaker 2: a big Dead fan, and I saw the Dead in

285
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Speaker 2: the nineties and Bruce was playing playing keyboards with him

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Speaker 2: at Hampton Coliseum. So that was a real thrill for me,

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Speaker 2: especially knowing too that Bruce was from He's from Williamsburg.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, that did register with me. I mean by

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Speaker 2: that when when Bruce was hitting, I was more of

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Speaker 2: like a punk rock kind of thrash metal, just get

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Speaker 2: just starting to figure out that, Wow, maybe I can

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Speaker 2: play music. But that was that definitely hit on my

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Speaker 2: radar for sure.

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Speaker 1: Okay, your father is overseas, he meets your mother who's

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Speaker 1: from Germany, They get married, they grow there's a point

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Speaker 1: in the book where you're talking about things are not

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Speaker 1: really that good between him home life is not that good,

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Speaker 1: and you're reading the book and go, oh, they're going

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Speaker 1: to get divorced. But they don't get divorced. They never did,

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Speaker 1: so you know, it's tough for anybody when they're one

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Speaker 1: of the parents born overseas. Can he tell us more

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Speaker 1: about the relationship between the two of them and what

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Speaker 1: it was like growing up with one parent who was

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Speaker 1: non American?

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Speaker 2: Oh cool, what a fun question. Yeah. I love that

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Speaker 2: you point out that they never got divorced, because that's

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Speaker 2: just such a small little detail, but it's so important

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Speaker 2: to me, you know, because that's my mom and my dad,

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Speaker 2: and they went through really hard times and I don't

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Speaker 2: think that's that's certainly not unheard of. And you stay

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Speaker 2: married long enough, you're going to go through some stuff.

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Speaker 2: And my mom and dad suck it out. And when

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Speaker 2: my dad passed away, I think they'd been married for

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Speaker 2: fifty two years, and I'm glad they stuck it out,

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Speaker 2: you know, even maybe sometimes they weren't always glad, but

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Speaker 2: that's just that in that how it goes, right. What

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Speaker 2: was it like growing up with a mom from another country, Well,

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Speaker 2: it was great. So, you know, my dad worked in

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Speaker 2: a beer can factory most of his adult life. My

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Speaker 2: mom worked as a bank teller, and they both worked

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Speaker 2: really hard and we were very, you know, middle class family.

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Speaker 2: But what was really important to them as a couple

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Speaker 2: was that my mom be able to go back to

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Speaker 2: Germany periodically, pretty frequently to maintain visits and touch with

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Speaker 2: her family over there. She had a big family over there,

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Speaker 2: and when I came along, she would take me. So

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Speaker 2: some of my very earliest memories as a toddler are

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Speaker 2: in Germany, and I remember the sound being just a

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Speaker 2: little kid on the playground playing with kids who I

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Speaker 2: didn't speak the language, really, and it didn't matter. And

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Speaker 2: it's funny how kids that don't even speak the language

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Speaker 2: can manage to play together for hours. It just doesn't matter.

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Speaker 2: And I remember the sound of the you know, police

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Speaker 2: cars and ambulances and stuff. In Germany. There's a different

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Speaker 2: kind of siren over there, and I remember the sound

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Speaker 2: of that. I remember the sets, the smell of my

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Speaker 2: my grandfather's cigars and his car and that, and you know,

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Speaker 2: those are things that anyone remembers or their earliest memories,

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Speaker 2: but mine were in Germany. And other than that, I

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Speaker 2: think there wasn't probably that much difference. Really. We grew

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Speaker 2: up in a really kind of a small town in

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Speaker 2: Southeast Virginia, and the things that I experienced culturally were

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Speaker 2: very small town Southeast Virginia. But there always was this

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Speaker 2: component that I knew that we were also German, and

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Speaker 2: that I would hear German around the house my mom all.

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Speaker 2: You know, the few German ladies that were in this town,

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Speaker 2: and there were more than you would expect, they all

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Speaker 2: found each other and they would get together and socialize,

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Speaker 2: and so you would walk in on a Sunday afternoon

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Speaker 2: to our house and see some German ladies sitting around

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Speaker 2: smoking cigarettes, talking German.

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Speaker 1: You know, well, as a little kid, you want to

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Speaker 1: fit in the fact that your mother was German and

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Speaker 1: probably had an accent. Did you think about that bringing

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Speaker 1: kids to the house or when she would go to

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Speaker 1: some function. Was that an issue?

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Speaker 2: It was not an issue. But it's funny that you

358
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Speaker 2: mentioned that, because I didn't know my mother had an

359
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Speaker 2: accent until kids would point it out, or I would

360
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Speaker 2: even after I had heard it before. I would forget

361
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Speaker 2: and someone would say something about my mother's accent, because

362
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Speaker 2: to me, that's just what my mom sounded like. It

363
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Speaker 2: didn't sound like a German accent. To me, it sounded

364
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Speaker 2: like my mother.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you talk about your parents going through ups and downs.

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Speaker 1: My parents certainly screamed and went through up and downs,

367
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Speaker 1: but stayed together. Do you think it was just that

368
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Speaker 1: it was your appearance or did they really go through

369
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Speaker 1: tough times? Oh?

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Speaker 2: Well, they went through tough times for sure, and I

371
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Speaker 2: don't want to air out any of their stuff, but

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Speaker 2: they certainly went through some tough times.

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Speaker 1: Well, I guess what I'm asking is we're the tough

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Speaker 1: times that they came from different countries.

375
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Speaker 2: Right, I never thought of it that way. I think

376
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Speaker 2: the tough times maybe had to do with they came

377
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Speaker 2: from different backgrounds, and I think they could have come

378
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Speaker 2: from those different backgrounds and been from the same country,

379
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Speaker 2: but they weren't. But they came from different backgrounds, and

380
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Speaker 2: they had different expectations about what family meant and what

381
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Speaker 2: their roles were in there, I think, and you know,

382
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Speaker 2: you can see where those would be some sort of

383
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Speaker 2: very foundational challenges, and I think and there was a

384
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Speaker 2: lot of change, and I talk about that in the book.

385
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Speaker 2: You know, there was my dad was getting promotions and

386
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Speaker 2: I think they fell and you know, you'll remember from

387
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,639
Speaker 2: the eighties there was very much this less so I

388
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:08,920
Speaker 2: think now then, you know, there was very much this

389
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:14,080
Speaker 2: implied pressure to succeed and to get ahead, and very capitalists,

390
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,720
Speaker 2: very like, you know, get make more money and move

391
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Speaker 2: into the nicer neighborhood and drive the nicer car. And

392
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Speaker 2: I think to a degree, I don't I wouldn't characterize

393
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Speaker 2: either of my parents have ever having been materialistic, but

394
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Speaker 2: I think to a degree that was the culture that

395
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Speaker 2: we were all living in at the time, and I

396
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,240
Speaker 2: think that there was some pressure there and I think

397
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Speaker 2: some of those you know, I was just a little boy,

398
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:36,880
Speaker 2: but from looking back on it and sort of surveying

399
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,199
Speaker 2: the situation from memory, I would imagine that some of

400
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,359
Speaker 2: that pressure and some of that drive to like push

401
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,720
Speaker 2: forward and get ahead probably got in the way of

402
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:51,880
Speaker 2: what might have otherwise been some more serene times.

403
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Speaker 1: I don't want to hammer this, but your mother's from Germany,

404
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 1: your father's from America. Is that the difference you're talking

405
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Speaker 1: about a more socioacono one is of a higher status

406
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Speaker 1: than the other.

407
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 2: No, I think they were both. They both came from

408
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:09,359
Speaker 2: relatively poorer families. It was my mom was a refugee

409
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Speaker 2: in post World War two and my dad just grew

410
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:18,399
Speaker 2: up in the woods to very, very poor, poor parents.

411
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Speaker 2: I think what they had in common, honestly, is that

412
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 2: they both were running as far away as they could,

413
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Speaker 2: as quick as fast as they could from the environments

414
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Speaker 2: that they were in. And I think that early in

415
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,359
Speaker 2: is what they shared in common. But I think I

416
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,880
Speaker 2: just think over time they probably had different expectations from

417
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,360
Speaker 2: each other. But again, at the end of it all,

418
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,680
Speaker 2: they found a way and had a very very long,

419
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Speaker 2: thriving marriage.

420
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Speaker 1: Okay, you go to college. Most of the people that

421
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,760
Speaker 1: you grew up with stay and go to a local college.

422
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 1: What drove you? Was there parental pressure or were they

423
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Speaker 1: completely checked out? You were doing whatever you wanted.

424
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Speaker 3: No.

425
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Speaker 2: What drove me to go to Virginia Conwell University in Richmond,

426
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,679
Speaker 2: which was an hour from where I grew up, was

427
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 2: that I knew that VCU in particular, and Richmond in general,

428
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 2: I had a very very fruitful, very very energized art

429
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 2: and music scene, and so by the time I was

430
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 2: getting out of high school, I had already been playing

431
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 2: in bands. In fact that I already been playing in

432
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 2: clubs with the bands that I had put together. So

433
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 2: what really drew me to Richmond was less. It wasn't

434
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Speaker 2: as much anything specific about the university. It was more

435
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 2: about where it was, and it was relatively close to home,

436
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 2: but far enough away where I could be pretty immersed

437
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,120
Speaker 2: into what was going on in Richmond. It felt different,

438
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 2: and it felt very exciting, and I wanted to be

439
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 2: a part of that. And that would be a theme

440
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 2: because later when I went to Chicago to go to

441
00:24:55,560 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 2: grad school in ninety five inte ninety five, in Chicago.

442
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 2: Chicago had this really really cool underground scene Touch and

443
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:09,239
Speaker 2: Go Records, and the Jesus Lizard was from there, and

444
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 2: Shellac and Tortoise was just getting big, and so it

445
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 2: was this really cool underground scene there that was happening,

446
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 2: and for me, I just wanted to be near it

447
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 2: because I thought being in the proximity of something that

448
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 2: was cool and happening would increase my chances of being

449
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 2: becoming a part of something that was cool and that

450
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,440
Speaker 2: was happening. So I was trying to put myself close

451
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 2: to the epicenter of something that I thought might be

452
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 2: you know, that I might be able to get absorbed by.

453
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 1: But your father said he wasn't going to pay if

454
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: you were studying music.

455
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 2: I wanted to go to music school, and Vcus has

456
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:43,640
Speaker 2: a good music school, and so for me, I want

457
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 2: to play music, I want to be enrich, and I

458
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 2: want to go to music school. And my dad's deal

459
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,920
Speaker 2: was my dad had a deal for me, and he

460
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 2: dropped out of high school. In fact, as far as

461
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:53,120
Speaker 2: I know, and I think I say this in book,

462
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure I'm the first person in either side

463
00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:00,719
Speaker 2: of my family to ever graduate college. And my dad's

464
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,640
Speaker 2: deal for me was I will pay for your school.

465
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,640
Speaker 2: You get a full ride from me for college because

466
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 2: you got your you got the grades to get in,

467
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 2: and I believe in giving you this opportunity. So I'm

468
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 2: going to pay for you. But there are there's one rule.

469
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 2: You will take no breaks. You will take no semesters off,

470
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 2: you will take no years off. There's no gap year.

471
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 2: I don't think people even use that. Turn back. Then

472
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 2: you will start and you will go until the end

473
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:31,679
Speaker 2: and finish. If you stop, I stopped paying. I'm sorry.

474
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 2: That's the deal. That's the deal. I want to go

475
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,360
Speaker 2: to VC music School and he's like, that's the other rule.

476
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 2: I'm not paying for music school. So I went for

477
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 2: mass communications. That's where I started. I started as a

478
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:46,439
Speaker 2: mass communications major because again that was to me, the

479
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 2: closest thing to music. If you're studying mass colm, you

480
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 2: might be in radio, you might be in TV. It's

481
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 2: something to do with music. I was just my mind

482
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 2: was just trying to connect dots.

483
00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 1: Okay, you talk about your father being more successful and

484
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,640
Speaker 1: moving and you had to go to a different school.

485
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 1: There were opportunities there, but you'd also talk about it

486
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,880
Speaker 1: being traumatic to what degree. Was that a big deal

487
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:12,159
Speaker 1: for you?

488
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 2: Well, I don't think, you know, to say it was

489
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 2: traumatic U is probably uh, you know, it's hard to say. Oh,

490
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 2: the trauma of moving from the lower barely middle class

491
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 2: neighborhood to the upper class neighborhood with the tennis courts

492
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 2: in the swimming pool. Oh the trauma. You know, it

493
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 2: wasn't traumatic. It was you know, there was a component

494
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 2: of it to me, to us that felt a little

495
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,199
Speaker 2: bit Beverly Hillbillies a little It felt a bit like

496
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 2: we were this family that moved from the edge of

497
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:50,199
Speaker 2: the woods with our you know, our dirt bikes and

498
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 2: our old cars and stuff, and we moved into the

499
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 2: nicer neighborhood and there was a little bit like these

500
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,399
Speaker 2: kids were like who are you? Like, what are you

501
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 2: doing here? Kind of thing that that was traumatic. I

502
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 2: think it was more of a learning curve for me.

503
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 2: But I think really more than that, I think I

504
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 2: was just kind of a shy and an awkward kid,

505
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 2: and that combined with being put into a new neighborhood.

506
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 2: These are sort of universal things. You take any shy,

507
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 2: awkward kid and you move them, you know, down the

508
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 2: road to a different school and a different neighborhood and

509
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 2: it's it's gonna be tough, just kind of life being

510
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,880
Speaker 2: doing what life does. But I took those things real

511
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 2: hard because of just who I was and my inability

512
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 2: to really have tough skin at the time. And all

513
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 2: of that stuff wound up feeding into why music and

514
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 2: why playing guitar was so important to me so vital,

515
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 2: because it gave me something. Once that guitar got in

516
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 2: my hand, it gave me a way to make none

517
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 2: of that stuff matter. I happened to be really good

518
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 2: at guitar really quick, and I could recognize that, and

519
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 2: it also made me feel complete in a way that

520
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 2: nothing else had. I had tried skateboarding with the neighborhood kids,

521
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 2: I had tried, you know, joining the sports teams. I

522
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 2: wasn't good at any of that stuff. But as soon

523
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 2: as a guitar fell into my hand, like that made

524
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 2: sense to me, and I was really able to navigate

525
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:22,479
Speaker 2: that and make sense of it very quickly, and it

526
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 2: made me feel a part of something, and I just

527
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 2: didn't want to let it go. So I think all

528
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 2: of that anxiety and all that social awkwardness set the

529
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 2: scene for me to really be relieved and be completed

530
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 2: if you will by music.

531
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 1: It's in the book, But tell my audience how you

532
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: end up playing the guitar.

533
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 2: I ended up playing guitar because my dad wouldn't let

534
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 2: me get a drum set. We had. I talked about

535
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 2: it in the book. So this is the early eighties,

536
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 2: the early into the mid eighties where MTVS had been

537
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 2: around for a minute, but it didn't make it to

538
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 2: us right away. So it made it to it made

539
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 2: it to you know, Southeast Virginia, and like every other

540
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 2: kid in America, I was glued to MTV. Latchkey, kid,

541
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 2: come home from school. You're not gonna see your parents

542
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 2: for three hours, and you're just sitting there watching MTV,

543
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 2: which was great. And so I'm watching all this music

544
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 2: in a way that I'd never seen it before. And

545
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 2: I wanted to play drums. And you know, my parents,

546
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 2: I described it in the book. They were always very,

547
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 2: very supportive of me and things I wanted to do.

548
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 2: I really had a great childhood, and I wanted to

549
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 2: play music and asked for a drum set, and my dad,

550
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 2: very wisely, I'm not getting a drum set was too loud.

551
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 2: He knew enough about music to know you can't turn

552
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 2: a drum set down. So my second choice was guitar,

553
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 2: so we got the back. Then they had this thing

554
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 2: called the Trading Post, which was a newspaper full of

555
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 2: you know, ads of people selling secondhand stuff, and we

556
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 2: found a guitar in there about a half hour away

557
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 2: for fifteen dollars and that was my very first guitar.

558
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 1: I can tell us about your brother buying or you

559
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 1: a left pool.

560
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:11,719
Speaker 2: Junior, my brother did. My brother was very supportive of

561
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 2: music as well. I think he's he such a music fan.

562
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 2: He was excited to see me getting involved. And again,

563
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 2: I was just pretty naturally good at guitar, so it

564
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 2: was pretty clear early on that I was making sense

565
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 2: of it pretty quickly, and I think that excited him

566
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 2: and he bought me my first less Paul. He used

567
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 2: to take me to music stores in a couple of

568
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 2: towns over where they had malls and they had shopping districts,

569
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 2: and there would be music stores and we would just

570
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 2: go on a Friday night just to hang out there,

571
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 2: and I would just walk the walls and stare at

572
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 2: these incredible guitars, which at the time looked to me

573
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 2: like otherworldly. Just to be in the presence of a

574
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 2: Gibson left Paul. Was such a thrill for me at

575
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 2: twelve and thirteen years old, just to be in the

576
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 2: room with one. I haven't even put it that way

577
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 2: until I'm talking to you, but it's really how it

578
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 2: was to be in the room with the Gibson less

579
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 2: Paul let alone get one in my hands. And after

580
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 2: we start going there for a while, we got to

581
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 2: know the guys that were running the shop, and they

582
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 2: heard me play and they realized that this kid can

583
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 2: kind of play, you know, so they started handing me

584
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 2: really cool stuff. So I got to play less Paul's

585
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 2: and I got to play real strats, and I got

586
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 2: to play Charvel's, which were like super cool modern guitars

587
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 2: of the day, and I could play them. So I

588
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 2: would be this little kid, and I looked even younger

589
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 2: than I was at the time, so I would just

590
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 2: eyes closed playing Randy Rhodes rifts, and I would, you know,

591
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 2: look over my shoulder, and there were three, four or

592
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 2: five people standing around watching me play because I was

593
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 2: pretty good, and I looked I was thirteen, looked eleven,

594
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 2: and they're like, wow, look at this could go, you know,

595
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 2: So my brother was really supportive about that, and I

596
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 2: think he enjoyed those trips and I really did. And

597
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 2: on the way to and from, you know, those hour

598
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 2: long drives, we would listen to music. And my brother

599
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 2: had really, really good taste in music, and he was

600
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 2: significantly older than me. So that was a real advantage

601
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 2: for me because I was hearing toys in the attic.

602
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 2: I'm twelve years old, thirteen years old. I wasn't the

603
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 2: only twelve thirteen year old hearing that, but I was.

604
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 2: I don't know that I would have otherwise, you know.

605
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 2: So I was hearing these cool like Leonard Scanner's CCR.

606
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 2: All this cool stuff that he was into was just

607
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 2: absorbing into my brain. And those were those were really

608
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 2: really great memories and really great trips, and I got

609
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 2: to play some really cool guitars at an early age.

610
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 1: Do you still have that Leshpool Junior?

611
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, so that's really how we got to this.

612
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 2: So a Christmas or two and after that, he, unbeknownst

613
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 2: to me, had put a deposit down on a les

614
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 2: Paul Junior. I absolutely still have that less Paul Junior.

615
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 1: I do.

616
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not getting rid of that.

617
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 1: Are you a gear guy? Use somebody with one hundred

618
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: guitars twenty am so youse someone that's not your thing

619
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 1: as only as you have one.

620
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 2: So I think I'm a little bit in the middle.

621
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,800
Speaker 2: I have a pretty cool vintage guitar collection these days.

622
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 2: I have some cool old stuff, not a ton of it.

623
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 2: I have also, Bob, you know, we tour a lot.

624
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 2: Lad with God tours a lot, so I have a

625
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,879
Speaker 2: touring gear. We play in three different tunings and need

626
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 2: a backup, so I pretty much need six guitars to

627
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 2: do a show without fear of, you know, a hiccup.

628
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 2: So there's the touring gear. So I probably have twenty

629
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,840
Speaker 2: thirty guitars that we use between the europe rig and

630
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 2: the US rig and the fly rig, and those are

631
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 2: all very very nice guitars, and I love them all,

632
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 2: and I curate that collection of live guitars right. But

633
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 2: then I have the guitars I have here at home,

634
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 2: which are a couple that would make it into that pile.

635
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 2: But I have also a vintage collection of I don't

636
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 2: know six eight guitars that are old and very collectible

637
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 2: but super great examples of what they are, and those

638
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 2: are those I'm really fond of those, and they're very

639
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,720
Speaker 2: inspirational when I play this. So I'm not a crazy

640
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 2: like need a need a separate, need to rent a

641
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 2: warehouse for all my gear kind of guy. But I

642
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 2: do have some cool stuff.

643
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 1: Okay, you're taking lessons to what degree? Can you read music?

644
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: Or could read music? Back then?

645
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 2: Very little and maybe better than than I do now,

646
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 2: because then I was closer to having teachers. You know.

647
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 2: I took some lessons and they would try to teach

648
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 2: me some just basic site reading, and you know, for

649
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 2: a minute, I could do that stuff, but I really

650
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 2: found it for what I wanted to do on the

651
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:54,720
Speaker 2: instrument to be all not all that important. It's funny.

652
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 2: I recently did a session with with Tim Leffay who

653
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:04,240
Speaker 2: play Tadashi Trucks, and he played based on Bowie's Blackstar record.

654
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 2: He's all over that record and I did a session

655
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,800
Speaker 2: with him and he comes in with these charts he

656
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,400
Speaker 2: charted out the teens were doing and he handed me

657
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 2: a chart. I was like, I don't know what to

658
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 2: do with this. I was like, I just had to

659
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 2: listen to the tunes and know them, you know what

660
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:23,359
Speaker 2: I mean. And we had a chuckle about that. But

661
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,879
Speaker 2: so yeah, I don't read music very well at all.

662
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 2: In fact, I frankly don't read music at all. But

663
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 2: I have a really good year, and I think that

664
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 2: there's no unless you want to be just a higher

665
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 2: on session player, which is great. That's the world needs those,

666
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 2: and there's some amazing ones those guys need to read.

667
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 2: But I've been fortunate enough where most of the stuff

668
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,439
Speaker 2: I do is just writing, or most of it's doing

669
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,839
Speaker 2: my own stuff anyway. So a couple of times I've

670
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 2: had guys chart out stuff because they're doing sessions with me,

671
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:00,880
Speaker 2: but I'll have to take word for that that's what

672
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 2: the chart is, because I can't call them out and

673
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 2: tell them it's wrong.

674
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 1: One of the themes in the book is you're weep,

675
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 1: talk about sit in front of the TV eating junk food,

676
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,240
Speaker 1: talk about ultimately losing the weight, but always thinking about

677
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 1: the weight.

678
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 2: Tell us about that, Yeah, you know, it's a chubby kid,

679
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 2: and just felt really self conscious about that always. And

680
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 2: I think, like most chubby kids, I got teased a

681
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 2: little bit for being chubby kid. And that's no fun

682
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 2: for any chubby kid. Other kids get teased for other things.

683
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 2: It's it's not this unthinkable, unimaginable trauma again. But for me,

684
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,839
Speaker 2: it just stuck. For whatever reason, I just didn't want

685
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 2: to be the fat kid. And I've at some point

686
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 2: I think I just hit a little gross burt and

687
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 2: I just decided not to eat very much and I

688
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 2: got skinny, and you know, became the thin kid with

689
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 2: the Les Paul and the Rockberry rock and roll, and

690
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:58,359
Speaker 2: that worked for a long time. But it's still all

691
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 2: my life. I just always still have what I call

692
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 2: that fat kid mentality. And you know, as I've gotten older,

693
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 2: you know, I still struggle to not have extra weight on.

694
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 2: But it's always, uh, it's always it always takes me

695
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 2: back to that mentality, that fat kid mentality, that feeling like,

696
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 2: you know, the the ashamed of oneself and one's and

697
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 2: having this sort of I guess over can I don't know,

698
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 2: it's over concerned, but just sort of being a self

699
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 2: obsessed with weight and with my body image and that

700
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 2: kind of thing. I think I think that's pretty normal stuff.

701
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 2: I don't think a lot of men talk about that,

702
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 2: but it was part of the story, you know.

703
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 1: Okay, you start off playing classic rock, how do you

704
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 1: end up getting into metal? And then the kind of

705
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 1: metal Limb of God plays well.

706
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 2: I started out playing whatever I could play, and it

707
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 2: was a blend of classic rock and there was some

708
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 2: sex pistols and ramones kind of thing going on in there.

709
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 2: And you know, the beauty of punk rock is that

710
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 2: it has a great energy and it's often not very

711
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 2: difficult to play, not always, but often, so that's a

712
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:27,319
Speaker 2: great place for a young guitar player to start. And

713
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 2: then the same thing can be said for ac DC.

714
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 2: I mean that is some of the most classic hard

715
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 2: rock that exists, and it stands the test of time.

716
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 2: But a lot of take the you know, the solos out,

717
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,760
Speaker 2: a lot of like Malcolm's parts, you know Angus' stuff.

718
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 2: He's a shredder to a kind of a blues like

719
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 2: he's very very fluent blues player. But Malcolm's parts are

720
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 2: pretty simple to play. It's just great songwriting. So there's

721
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 2: there's all these examples of great bands and great kind

722
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:02,479
Speaker 2: of timeless hard rock music that's really relatively simple to play.

723
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 2: The Cult is the same way. I think I think

724
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 2: I mentioned that in the book. The Cult Electric is

725
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 2: like one of the first records I could play, you know,

726
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,319
Speaker 2: from song one all the way to the end and

727
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 2: just play along to it. So I just started playing

728
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 2: along to what I could play, and then as my

729
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 2: tastes evolved, I got more and my skill set evolved.

730
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 2: I got into meggot Eth and Metallica because I was

731
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 2: an eighth ninth tenth grade kid, and that's what eighth

732
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 2: nineteenth grade kids listened to, you know. And but for me,

733
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:38,840
Speaker 2: my ability was growing and in a way that I

734
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 2: could start to match that playing as well. So it

735
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 2: was just all kind of fueling each other. As I

736
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 2: became able to be more fluent on the instrument and

737
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 2: was getting into music that was more technical, those two

738
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 2: things kind of it created the synergy which really carried

739
00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:01,320
Speaker 2: me to thrash metal, which it can be very technically proficient,

740
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 2: technically demanding music, but also has this cool kind of

741
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 2: dark and high energy, powerful thing that was really vital

742
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 2: for me as a teenage guitar player. Teenage kid.

743
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 1: Okay, you have a long story about a battle of

744
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 1: the bands, which is certainly more serious than the battles

745
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 1: of the band that I grew up with that you

746
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 1: had to basically qualify. Then there was a different school.

747
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: You won once, then you were with a different band.

748
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 1: You thought they were better and you didn't win, but

749
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 1: you still knew you were best. What was that experience like?

750
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 1: And what music were you playing? In the battles of

751
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 1: the band?

752
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 2: That battle of the band, we asked what the experience

753
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 2: is like? It was the pinnacle for me and my

754
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:52,360
Speaker 2: vision of where we existed in this small town world

755
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 2: of music. To play and to win Stockwood it was

756
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:01,839
Speaker 2: called you didn't get much better in Williamsburg, Virginia if

757
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 2: you were a rock band. You know, that was that

758
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 2: was the heights. So it was a big deal. I

759
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 2: couldn't wait to do that every year, and we did

760
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 2: it for a number of years. What kind of music

761
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 2: we were playing? We were playing both. You know, you

762
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 2: talk about two different bands, and they weren't all that dissimilar.

763
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 2: One was but a little better than the other one.

764
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,919
Speaker 2: But we were playing a blend of sort of older

765
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:31,919
Speaker 2: heavy metal Black Sabbath and we played the first band.

766
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 2: We played Hand of Doune by Black Sabbath, and we

767
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 2: played Crazy Train and I think we did some like

768
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 2: the Motley Crue version of smoking in the Boys Room

769
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 2: and that kind of stuff. I think we did an

770
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,359
Speaker 2: our main song. And then the second band, which was

771
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 2: sort of a spin off of the first one was

772
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 2: doing similar stuff but a little more, a little more

773
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 2: thrashboid and I think Megadeth and Metallica and that kind

774
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:54,839
Speaker 2: of thing.

775
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:59,400
Speaker 1: Okay, you know you're in your first band, guys, graduate,

776
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 1: they moved way before we go to college. There's another

777
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:07,840
Speaker 1: incarnation of one of these bands, and ultimately you're left out. Okay,

778
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 1: the band is formed. You know that could be heartbreaking.

779
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,280
Speaker 1: You sort of pass over it there. Well, there really

780
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 1: wasn't a place for me. What was he experienced like

781
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 1: when it actually happened.

782
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:22,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was devastated. You're you're talking about this now

783
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 2: I'm in college and in the book, I sort of,

784
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 2: as you're doing, I string together this this story of

785
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:31,839
Speaker 2: these different bands that I was, you know, bouncing from

786
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 2: one and forming another and doing this, and one of

787
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 2: them turned into this very kind of noise. By now

788
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 2: we're in the nineties and the metal thing, the head

789
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 2: bangers ball era kind of metal thing is falling out

790
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:48,880
Speaker 2: of favor, and now it's all about underground and grunge

791
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 2: and punk, and so there was this and I followed

792
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 2: right along through all that stuff, and it was really

793
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 2: interesting for me to look back on because I knew

794
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 2: I did I didn't know, but I sort of intuitively

795
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 2: unlearned a lot of what I had learned. You know,

796
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 2: you and I were just talking about the technical aspect

797
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,879
Speaker 2: of metal and that's where I came from. But by

798
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 2: the time I got to Richmond and the culture around

799
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 2: rock music was changing, and you know, with grunge and

800
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:22,840
Speaker 2: Nirvana and the success of bands like Fugazi and Sonic

801
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 2: Youth and that kind of stuff that was it was

802
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:30,320
Speaker 2: very noisy and not frankly as technical or often as musical,

803
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 2: but it had this passion and this energy that was

804
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 2: just really attractive about it. So for me as a player,

805
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 2: I almost unlearned a lot of what I had learned

806
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:43,759
Speaker 2: how to do in that metal stuff. So here we

807
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:45,840
Speaker 2: find ourselves now in the early nineties, and me and

808
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 2: my friends are putting this band together and it's this

809
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:52,799
Speaker 2: very feedback e noise, scapy, sonic youth y kind of thing.

810
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 2: And despite my efforts to unlearn my uh you know,

811
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 2: technical goal approach to as a player, I'm not the

812
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 2: most technical player, but in that room, I was the

813
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 2: most technical player, and it, uh, you know, it just

814
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 2: didn't work out. I think I was making it sound

815
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,319
Speaker 2: a little too clean, So I was left out. And

816
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 2: they went on to do some and these are every

817
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:15,879
Speaker 2: one of those guys are still a really good friend

818
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 2: of mine. But they went on to do some really

819
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 2: cool stuff in that time and did some touring and

820
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 2: did some made a lot of noise literally and figuratively

821
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:27,319
Speaker 2: in that scene, and I was left out. And that

822
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:31,080
Speaker 2: was That was tough for me to take because even

823
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 2: outside of music, I had to learn a life lesson,

824
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:39,240
Speaker 2: which was you have to root for your friends, even

825
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:42,439
Speaker 2: when they're doing what you wish you were doing.

826
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 1: Okay, there's a lot of ignorance in the North about

827
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:58,840
Speaker 1: the South, not as much as there used to be. People,

828
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 1: you know, think of the South. They think in Nashville.

829
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 1: Richmond the way you painted in the book, it was

830
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 1: like an epicenter of punk music. Tell us about Richmond

831
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 1: at that time. In Richmond today, I'm.

832
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 2: Happy to I have so much love for this city.

833
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 2: I'm still here a little ways outside, I'm back in

834
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 2: the woods, but I'm still I'm still a stones throat

835
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:27,719
Speaker 2: from Richmond, and I intend to stay that way. I

836
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 2: love I love our city, I love our music scene.

837
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 2: As I told you, earlier there because VCU has such

838
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:42,760
Speaker 2: a strong art school, it attracts people from the region

839
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:51,439
Speaker 2: creative minds, and you know, it attracts artists, it attracts musicians, sculptors,

840
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 2: theater people all sort of flock to Richmond because of VCU,

841
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 2: And you know, I was a part of that during

842
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:03,239
Speaker 2: that time. So Richmond had this interesting thing in the

843
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 2: nineties where you know, and in the nineties it wasn't

844
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 2: unique just to Richmond, but in the nineties, different cities

845
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:13,800
Speaker 2: had different sounds. So and back then, and you'll remember

846
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:16,760
Speaker 2: this Bob. Back then, you could say a band sounded

847
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 2: like they were from Minneapolis, or they sounded like they

848
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,000
Speaker 2: were from Austin, or they sounded like they were from

849
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 2: New York, or they sounded like they were from Chicago.

850
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 2: And you would almost ask, as a music fan, or

851
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:32,320
Speaker 2: as someone that was into particularly underground music, you would hey,

852
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 2: have you heard so and so? No, where are they from?

853
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 2: And that I still do that. I'll be like, where

854
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 2: are they from? And it sort of matters less now,

855
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 2: but it's just kind of intuitive question because where they're

856
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 2: from could give you an idea what they might be doing.

857
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 2: You know, So Richmond's personality in that sense was pretty

858
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 2: unique in that there was a real angular kind of

859
00:47:56,600 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 2: off time approached, a lot of just odd time signatures,

860
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 2: a lot of instrumental bands, a lot of like influence

861
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 2: from bands like Wire, you know, the UK band, this

862
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 2: real sort of brittle, abrasive kind of thing that wasn't

863
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 2: quite punk rock, but it was real raw and real

864
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,759
Speaker 2: stripped down. And Richmond would blend that with sort of

865
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:26,799
Speaker 2: this sort of pseudo psychedelic component and it was just

866
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:31,240
Speaker 2: a real artsy and real abrasive version of underground punk

867
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:35,400
Speaker 2: and hard rock, and that in time sort of evolved

868
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 2: and blended with some metal bands, so it created bands

869
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 2: like Breadwinner, who is a sort of underground legendary instrumental

870
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:49,040
Speaker 2: band from Richmond, put out a record on Merge Records,

871
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:52,759
Speaker 2: and that was just absolutely, like so important to me.

872
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 2: Everything on that record there wouldn't have There was barely

873
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 2: a vocal on the record in it. I would just

874
00:48:57,280 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 2: listen to it like like like someone who listened to

875
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:01,680
Speaker 2: their favor pop song that would just listen to it

876
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:05,680
Speaker 2: over and over, and the grooves the way there were grooves,

877
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 2: but that weren't straight grooves. It would sound like you know,

878
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:11,839
Speaker 2: it sort of to me sonically, like if you rolled

879
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 2: an egg down a hill, it had just like this

880
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 2: this like very it was had this very loping quality,

881
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 2: but it was consistent, consistently stretched out and consistently off.

882
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:24,799
Speaker 2: Or if you did the same thing and just and

883
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:27,440
Speaker 2: like pushed a box, it would like it rolls and

884
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 2: then it stops, and then it rolls and it stops,

885
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 2: and it's very you know, predictable. But at the same time,

886
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 2: off time, there's another band called slang Lous that did

887
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 2: the same thing but then blended that approach with this

888
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 2: sort of dark, kind of theatrical vocal element that wasn't

889
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:56,520
Speaker 2: really metal, but it was really dark and really kind

890
00:49:56,560 --> 00:50:02,520
Speaker 2: of obscure but strangely intellectual lyrics, sort of poetry dark

891
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 2: poetry lyrics. And these were just local bands, and these

892
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 2: were the bands that me and my friends wanted to be.

893
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 2: Like we loved the Melvins, we loved Slayer, but we

894
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 2: really wanted to be like slang Laws, who were just

895
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 2: down the street and probably playing a party on Friday

896
00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:24,239
Speaker 2: night or at the small bar on Saturday night. And

897
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:29,360
Speaker 2: you know, so it became this very It was insular

898
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:32,719
Speaker 2: in the sense is that all the bands influenced each

899
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 2: other more than outside bands influenced us. And Lamb of

900
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:40,279
Speaker 2: God started as a band called burn the Priest and

901
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:42,360
Speaker 2: we were an instrumental band when we were Burned the Priest,

902
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:45,839
Speaker 2: and then we added a singer and then eventually changed

903
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 2: the name the Lamb of God. But what Burned the

904
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:50,720
Speaker 2: Priest started out as was trying to be a little

905
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:54,879
Speaker 2: more extreme version of Breadwinner or slang laws.

906
00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:59,359
Speaker 1: What was the dream you know in the area you're

907
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 1: talking about before they run DGC and Nirvana was independent

908
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:07,800
Speaker 1: You mentioned Merge, etc. In the nineties, even though on

909
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:13,279
Speaker 1: MTV goes more hip hop, there's a whole burgeoning independent

910
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:16,759
Speaker 1: rock scene. So did everybody say we're just doing what

911
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 1: we're doing, or they say, I want to go to LA,

912
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:20,440
Speaker 1: I want to get a major label deal, I want

913
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:24,440
Speaker 1: to conquer the world. What was the mindset well for us.

914
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 2: Burn the Preeze and not only.

915
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 1: You, but the other rack you talk about, Red Winter.

916
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 1: There's a whole scene in Richmond. Was everybody happy where

917
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:38,839
Speaker 1: they were or did people have a desire to be nationwide?

918
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 2: I think in that time from what I could tell

919
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 2: in the circles that I was in in the circles

920
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:47,840
Speaker 2: I was playing in. The dream was to get in

921
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:53,280
Speaker 2: a van and to go play shows to thirty forty

922
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 2: people in a basement or maybe in a bar, and

923
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:58,919
Speaker 2: then do that for a month, and if you came

924
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:02,759
Speaker 2: home with a couple hundred bucks, that was you were

925
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 2: a rock star. You know. I think the dream in

926
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 2: a lot of those scenes was just it was this beautiful,

927
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:16,400
Speaker 2: mindful approach to creating music that was just to do

928
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 2: it because it felt urgent, and it felt authentic, and

929
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:28,200
Speaker 2: it felt natural to do that. There's I'm sure still

930
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 2: people that that. I mean, that's what art is, right.

931
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:34,160
Speaker 2: I really think any form of art is really that

932
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:38,719
Speaker 2: at its core, if it's really art, And and so

933
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 2: I think that still happens all the time, you know.

934
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:46,239
Speaker 2: And I don't know that we're going to get into

935
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:48,799
Speaker 2: this structured position of what the music world is like

936
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:50,880
Speaker 2: now versus what it was like in the mid nineties,

937
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:54,359
Speaker 2: but that that was the dream for us for sure.

938
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 1: So how hard was it to leave Richmond in your

939
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 1: music advance there and go to.

940
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 2: Chicago, Well, it was it was difficult. That the timeframes

941
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:10,800
Speaker 2: in terms of what you and I are talking about

942
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 2: are darting around a little bit. When I left Richmond

943
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:18,279
Speaker 2: to go to Chicago, Burn the Priest had started, but

944
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 2: we weren't really doing a whole lot, and I could

945
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:22,880
Speaker 2: tell it was really cool, but I just had bigger

946
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:25,880
Speaker 2: sights on wanting to get into a bigger city and

947
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:30,479
Speaker 2: have a bigger kind of pool of people to pick

948
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:33,799
Speaker 2: from to play with. When I went up there. For

949
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:35,839
Speaker 2: a couple of years, I've never really got much going

950
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 2: on up there, and Burn the Priest was still kind

951
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 2: of bubbling here and starting to drop people and starting

952
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:43,680
Speaker 2: to go up to Philly and play shows, and I

953
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 2: really wanted to be a part of it, so I

954
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:49,279
Speaker 2: came back. But leaving Richmond it was a weird thing

955
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:51,319
Speaker 2: because it was it was a lesson for me in

956
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 2: terms of, like, you don't really know what you got

957
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 2: until it's gone. Because I while I can sit here

958
00:53:56,640 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 2: and talk about how essential and awesome Richmond was and

959
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:02,440
Speaker 2: it was all these things, I knew it was great

960
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:05,799
Speaker 2: to me. If I went somewhere bigger and somewhere more

961
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:10,319
Speaker 2: I don't know, big city, more more happening, then it

962
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 2: was gonna be even better. And what I learned was

963
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:15,359
Speaker 2: bigger isn't necessarily better, And maybe what we had going

964
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:17,720
Speaker 2: on here was cooler.

965
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 1: I think it was, Okay, when you leave Chicago to

966
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 1: go back to Richmond, how much of it is you've

967
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:28,799
Speaker 1: burned out on Chicago, burned out on graduate school, and

968
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:30,799
Speaker 1: how much of it is I gotta go back and

969
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:31,920
Speaker 1: play with burn the Priests.

970
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:37,280
Speaker 2: It was one hundred percent of one and one hundred

971
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:39,879
Speaker 2: percent of other of the other. I think I would

972
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:41,919
Speaker 2: have gone back to Richmond if Burned the Priests weren't

973
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:44,200
Speaker 2: even there. I was just ready to come back to

974
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 2: Richmond and go home. But I was also just dying

975
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:53,240
Speaker 2: to get back with those guys, because I just I

976
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:55,279
Speaker 2: the whole time I was in Chicago, I was kind

977
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:59,759
Speaker 2: of mourning leaving that because it felt so fulfilling, the

978
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:02,880
Speaker 2: only be with a group of guys that I just

979
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 2: could felt like I could do no wrong with. And

980
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:07,720
Speaker 2: just as soon as that came together, I had already

981
00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:10,400
Speaker 2: had plans to split, and so I was just following

982
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:12,160
Speaker 2: through with what I had been planning on doing. Anyway,

983
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:17,680
Speaker 2: So I think I think there was no angle that

984
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:19,360
Speaker 2: had me staying in Chicago.

985
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 1: Okay, you say you go back to Richmond, the band

986
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:27,680
Speaker 1: welcomes you with open arms. My experience in life is

987
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:31,840
Speaker 1: usually not that way you leave, they continue without you,

988
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:34,400
Speaker 1: if they lay you back at all, there are a

989
00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:37,640
Speaker 1: number of hurdles, So tell me about that.

990
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think it speaks to just how

991
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:47,040
Speaker 2: natural it was and how correct my part of that

992
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 2: equation fit. There was a new guitar player that had

993
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:54,400
Speaker 2: come in, and so that was a little bit of

994
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:56,799
Speaker 2: a hurdle because he's like, wait, who's this guy that

995
00:55:56,880 --> 00:56:00,319
Speaker 2: I don't really even know coming back to reach this

996
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:02,160
Speaker 2: band that I've never been in a band with him with?

997
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:04,960
Speaker 2: But we hung out for a day or two and

998
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:07,960
Speaker 2: it had a completely had a great understanding, and he's

999
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:11,160
Speaker 2: he's still a friend. I've talked to him recently, and

1000
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:13,959
Speaker 2: they had had They had had Randy, our singer, join

1001
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:17,200
Speaker 2: and Randy and I knew of each other. We weren't

1002
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:21,080
Speaker 2: really friends, but Randy, Randy and I talk about this.

1003
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:24,040
Speaker 2: I talk about this in the book too. Randy had this.

1004
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:25,719
Speaker 2: He was a punk rocker. He didn't have anything to

1005
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:26,919
Speaker 2: do with the metal at all. He was a punk

1006
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:32,720
Speaker 2: rocker in a metal band, and he had this understanding

1007
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 2: of all right, well, if you're in our band now,

1008
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:40,879
Speaker 2: then you're in our band, and it's right or die,

1009
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:43,239
Speaker 2: And that was just the way he worked. I think

1010
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:45,760
Speaker 2: he might have been like that with anybody. It certainly

1011
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:47,920
Speaker 2: given him that chance, but it was just he was

1012
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:52,920
Speaker 2: of the mindset of like, okay, well then then then

1013
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:55,640
Speaker 2: we're part of the same tribe. Let's go, let's I'm

1014
00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:58,360
Speaker 2: all in okay for years.

1015
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:02,560
Speaker 1: You go back to Richmond, he dropped out of graduate school.

1016
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:06,239
Speaker 1: But you're working as a roofer, your work in construction,

1017
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:10,440
Speaker 1: while you're playing music, and you're getting older. Is there

1018
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:13,279
Speaker 1: any part of you that says, shit, you know, I

1019
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:15,960
Speaker 1: should have a career, I should have something more serious

1020
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:16,280
Speaker 1: than this.

1021
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:19,720
Speaker 2: Yes, there is, And you know you and I were

1022
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:23,320
Speaker 2: touching on this earlier. There's all the while this component.

1023
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:27,640
Speaker 2: Now I'm in my mid twenties, approaching the later twenties,

1024
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:30,960
Speaker 2: people I know are starting to have kids and get married,

1025
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:36,600
Speaker 2: and I'm riding around in a vand playing just kind

1026
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 2: of screamy heavy metal, punk rock hybrid, playing warehouses in Philly.

1027
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:44,600
Speaker 2: So there is this voice in the back of my

1028
00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:47,920
Speaker 2: head saying, you know, you need to get serious about something.

1029
00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:50,959
Speaker 2: You need to you need to get your ack together,

1030
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:55,640
Speaker 2: you need to grow up. And again, you know I

1031
00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 2: talked about the firefighter situation, that's there's a cut all

1032
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:01,440
Speaker 2: my hair off and when applied with the fire department.

1033
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:07,400
Speaker 2: But pretty quickly into that process, just came to this conclusion,

1034
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:11,120
Speaker 2: this this self knowledge of It's just I'm never gonna

1035
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:14,680
Speaker 2: be happy unless I'm just playing guitar. So I guess

1036
00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:18,400
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna be the broke guitar player guy forever.

1037
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:21,280
Speaker 2: And I found acceptance around that.

1038
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:25,880
Speaker 1: Okay, So the band is offered a deal from these

1039
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:28,560
Speaker 1: guys who work for Middle Blade with a new label.

1040
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:33,880
Speaker 1: You know, conventionally people say, oh I'm signed, We're on

1041
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:37,160
Speaker 1: the way, We're on the road. What was going through

1042
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:39,160
Speaker 1: your head? And the band said when that came.

1043
00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:43,680
Speaker 2: Together, oh well yeah. So the deal with Prosthetic Records

1044
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:50,200
Speaker 2: was such a small deal. It wasn't like the movie

1045
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:52,600
Speaker 2: deal where you know, we got it, we finally made it,

1046
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:54,480
Speaker 2: we got a big record deal. It wasn't that at all.

1047
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:58,480
Speaker 2: These These were guys that were gonna give us a

1048
00:58:58,520 --> 00:59:02,520
Speaker 2: couple thousand bucks made to go put together a recording.

1049
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:04,800
Speaker 2: And then they then they had the resources and the

1050
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:08,120
Speaker 2: connections and the inroads with which to release that recording

1051
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:11,439
Speaker 2: and hire a publicist for it. And so they were

1052
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:16,280
Speaker 2: completely honest and realistic about their presentation with that, which is,

1053
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:19,600
Speaker 2: you know, no one's quitting a job. We're just going

1054
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:24,000
Speaker 2: to get this record in reviewed in magazines and it's

1055
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:25,640
Speaker 2: going to get in some stores, and it's going to

1056
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:28,280
Speaker 2: get it's you know, we're going to help you get noticed.

1057
00:59:28,440 --> 00:59:31,760
Speaker 2: And that's what they did and it was a great relationship,

1058
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:33,680
Speaker 2: and then we went on to do a second record

1059
00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:38,840
Speaker 2: with them as the Palaces burned, and based on the

1060
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:41,120
Speaker 2: reaction that the first record got, we had a little

1061
00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:43,120
Speaker 2: bit more money to work with, and we had, you know,

1062
00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:46,240
Speaker 2: more resources available to us, and we made some videos

1063
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:48,800
Speaker 2: that were a couple of them. Want in particular was

1064
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:53,400
Speaker 2: really cool, and it just all lined up with the

1065
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 2: way MTV was promoting heavy metal at the time and

1066
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:01,680
Speaker 2: the platform they had re established with Headbanger. All of

1067
01:00:01,720 --> 01:00:03,880
Speaker 2: these things sort of syncd up for us time wise,

1068
01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:07,080
Speaker 2: and we made the right video for the right song

1069
01:00:07,160 --> 01:00:08,880
Speaker 2: at the right time, and got it on the right

1070
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:12,480
Speaker 2: platform and had the right people behind it. That really

1071
01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:16,960
Speaker 2: got us noticed, and that ultimately is what sort of

1072
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:18,840
Speaker 2: blew the band up to the point where we started

1073
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:21,320
Speaker 2: getting looked at by major labels.

1074
01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:24,360
Speaker 1: Okay, you talk about going to Massachusetts to cut this

1075
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:28,720
Speaker 1: record first record. In the second record too, there's a

1076
01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:34,800
Speaker 1: lot of talk about the travel, the bands, etc. I

1077
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:38,080
Speaker 1: read that and I say, it's so fucking dangerous. People

1078
01:00:38,120 --> 01:00:42,400
Speaker 1: aren't wearing seatbelts, things aren't maintained, You got ball tires.

1079
01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:46,040
Speaker 1: Were you thinking about that at all? And were there

1080
01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:47,960
Speaker 1: any bad experiences?

1081
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:54,560
Speaker 2: Oh? Man, I don't think we were thinking about that

1082
01:00:54,720 --> 01:00:57,120
Speaker 2: much at all. I think we knew that if, you know,

1083
01:00:57,560 --> 01:01:00,920
Speaker 2: somebody fell asleep driving and this thing flipped over, that

1084
01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 2: was gonna be the end of it, you know. But

1085
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:08,880
Speaker 2: I just don't think we worried about that kind of thing.

1086
01:01:08,920 --> 01:01:17,040
Speaker 2: I think there was a real, just a real kind

1087
01:01:17,120 --> 01:01:20,480
Speaker 2: of caution to the wind kind of thing. And what

1088
01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:22,920
Speaker 2: was the second party? Oh? Were there any instance? Yeah,

1089
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:25,800
Speaker 2: there was little stuff. One time the steering went out

1090
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:28,240
Speaker 2: while we were going off an exit ramp fortunately there

1091
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:31,479
Speaker 2: because we were slowing down and the van didn't turn

1092
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:33,760
Speaker 2: and went straight. We had to get that fixed. And

1093
01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:37,800
Speaker 2: one time we were leaving for a trip up north somewhere,

1094
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:43,480
Speaker 2: and for whatever reason, there were only two or three

1095
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:47,000
Speaker 2: lug nuts on the rear wheel of our van, and

1096
01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:50,000
Speaker 2: I remember noticing that and tightening up and they were loose,

1097
01:01:50,040 --> 01:01:52,600
Speaker 2: and I remember thinking a three is probably just as

1098
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:55,840
Speaker 2: good as five. And on that trip on the way home,

1099
01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:58,040
Speaker 2: the wheel came off the van that was that was

1100
01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:02,120
Speaker 2: a scary one, you know, but fortunately it didn't flip

1101
01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:04,160
Speaker 2: over or anything like that. So yeah, there was little stuff.

1102
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:06,200
Speaker 2: I think we just got really lucky and honestly, a

1103
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:09,480
Speaker 2: lot of the time, I mean, there was a lot

1104
01:02:09,520 --> 01:02:12,320
Speaker 2: of drinking going on, and we didn't exactly pay much

1105
01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:15,440
Speaker 2: attention to designated drivers. I don't say that proudly. I

1106
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:16,920
Speaker 2: think it's just how it was.

1107
01:02:25,160 --> 01:02:29,280
Speaker 1: Okay. In the book, you're surprised if the acceptance of

1108
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:34,400
Speaker 1: the music once you make recordings. Why do you think

1109
01:02:34,920 --> 01:02:36,040
Speaker 1: people embraced it?

1110
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:41,400
Speaker 2: Well, I think there's a number of reasons why the

1111
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:47,720
Speaker 2: music reacted like it did. I think so much of

1112
01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:52,680
Speaker 2: all of this story is timing. I think maybe if

1113
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:55,920
Speaker 2: someone had made similar records to the records we made

1114
01:02:56,160 --> 01:02:58,640
Speaker 2: five years earlier or five years later, they may not

1115
01:02:58,720 --> 01:03:02,960
Speaker 2: have mattered the same way that those records mattered to

1116
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:08,720
Speaker 2: our experience. I think there was just a moment where

1117
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:14,280
Speaker 2: this thing that we were a part of accidentally was

1118
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:20,520
Speaker 2: connecting with different scenes and different groups of of hardcore

1119
01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:23,040
Speaker 2: kids and metal kids and punk rock kids. It was

1120
01:03:23,120 --> 01:03:26,440
Speaker 2: all sort of connecting at that point in time. And

1121
01:03:26,520 --> 01:03:29,040
Speaker 2: as I said earlier, I think there were platforms popping

1122
01:03:29,160 --> 01:03:31,840
Speaker 2: up that were supporting that. There's a thing called Much

1123
01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:34,400
Speaker 2: Music at the time that was like a video platform,

1124
01:03:34,480 --> 01:03:39,760
Speaker 2: and there was MTV Two was MTV's rebrand where they

1125
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:43,320
Speaker 2: were instead of where MTV was playing all this reality

1126
01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:46,720
Speaker 2: show stuff on their big corporate channel they had, they

1127
01:03:46,720 --> 01:03:49,840
Speaker 2: had a second channel that was more music oriented, and

1128
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:54,480
Speaker 2: they were really giving a lot of attension to underground bands.

1129
01:03:55,720 --> 01:04:02,080
Speaker 2: And so there was this whole just connection going on

1130
01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:05,720
Speaker 2: between the independent scenes and the bands that were starting

1131
01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:07,920
Speaker 2: to pop up, and the platforms that were made available

1132
01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:10,800
Speaker 2: to us, and it all synced up. And I think

1133
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:14,880
Speaker 2: it's the kind of thing like if we were out

1134
01:04:14,920 --> 01:04:17,720
Speaker 2: in the water on our board when the wave came,

1135
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:21,080
Speaker 2: if we had been on the beach complaining that there

1136
01:04:21,120 --> 01:04:24,120
Speaker 2: aren't any waves, we wouldn't have caught the wave, if

1137
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:25,960
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. If we came the next

1138
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:28,160
Speaker 2: day with our board and there were no waves, we wouldn't.

1139
01:04:28,240 --> 01:04:30,760
Speaker 2: It was just the right time and it was there

1140
01:04:30,800 --> 01:04:34,920
Speaker 2: and we were doing the right thing, and we that

1141
01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:42,200
Speaker 2: was the luck part and it's still luck. In my mind,

1142
01:04:42,200 --> 01:04:44,960
Speaker 2: it's still good fortune. But the thing about us is

1143
01:04:45,040 --> 01:04:50,720
Speaker 2: we have always been very, very genuine. We weren't doing

1144
01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:55,800
Speaker 2: something trying to catch a trend. We were just being ourselves.

1145
01:04:55,880 --> 01:04:59,600
Speaker 2: And there is something about this group of guys that

1146
01:04:59,720 --> 01:05:04,520
Speaker 2: is some often to a fault, just so genuine, warts

1147
01:05:04,560 --> 01:05:08,600
Speaker 2: and all, and we were just being We were there.

1148
01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:10,840
Speaker 2: This band has always been very real, and we were

1149
01:05:10,960 --> 01:05:12,760
Speaker 2: very real back then, and I think that was pretty

1150
01:05:12,800 --> 01:05:15,440
Speaker 2: undeniable that anyone that might happen to pay attention, And

1151
01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:18,800
Speaker 2: I think that was intriguing jumping all the way forward.

1152
01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:23,240
Speaker 1: There is no MTV of any note at this point

1153
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:26,880
Speaker 1: in time. There are a million different outlets. To what

1154
01:05:27,080 --> 01:05:31,160
Speaker 1: degree is your career's lamb of God hurt by the

1155
01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:34,160
Speaker 1: fact that we live in this modern world where there

1156
01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:37,640
Speaker 1: are a million options and hard to flow to the

1157
01:05:37,680 --> 01:05:40,920
Speaker 1: top of the pile. In areas where people were unaware

1158
01:05:40,960 --> 01:05:44,040
Speaker 1: of you might become aware of you today.

1159
01:05:44,120 --> 01:05:47,400
Speaker 2: You mean, yeah, yeah, I don't think it's hurt at all.

1160
01:05:47,520 --> 01:05:51,000
Speaker 2: I think I think it would be really really challenging

1161
01:05:51,600 --> 01:05:55,720
Speaker 2: from my mind to navigate today's landscape escape as a

1162
01:05:55,800 --> 01:06:00,040
Speaker 2: new young, emerging artist, a new ambitious band trying to

1163
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:04,120
Speaker 2: figure out how to get hurd or how to get seen,

1164
01:06:04,320 --> 01:06:06,840
Speaker 2: or how to make the right noise in a world

1165
01:06:07,080 --> 01:06:10,040
Speaker 2: full of all these options. I wouldn't know how to

1166
01:06:10,080 --> 01:06:12,560
Speaker 2: do that today. But I think because Lamb of God

1167
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:15,400
Speaker 2: came from the time that we came from and we are,

1168
01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:18,920
Speaker 2: we built this into what we are now. The band's

1169
01:06:18,920 --> 01:06:23,680
Speaker 2: bigger now than it's ever been, and so I don't

1170
01:06:23,720 --> 01:06:25,560
Speaker 2: know that any of it hurts us. I mean, we

1171
01:06:25,600 --> 01:06:29,200
Speaker 2: play huge shows, we get these great festival opportunities, and

1172
01:06:29,280 --> 01:06:32,280
Speaker 2: we play you know, small sheds on our own and

1173
01:06:33,080 --> 01:06:37,000
Speaker 2: arenas and that, and so I don't know. Again, it's

1174
01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:39,520
Speaker 2: sort of that theme. I can never imagine it getting

1175
01:06:39,520 --> 01:06:43,480
Speaker 2: any bigger than it is, and I felt that way

1176
01:06:43,560 --> 01:06:46,840
Speaker 2: the whole time through so you know, here at you know,

1177
01:06:46,920 --> 01:06:51,520
Speaker 2: and I turned fifty two yesterday and the band, thank you,

1178
01:06:51,560 --> 01:06:53,600
Speaker 2: and the band's still going strong. So I don't I

1179
01:06:53,640 --> 01:06:57,080
Speaker 2: can't really say we're hurt by anything. I'm just ecstatic

1180
01:06:57,160 --> 01:07:00,480
Speaker 2: and thrilled and grateful that people still care to listen

1181
01:07:00,880 --> 01:07:03,400
Speaker 2: because we sure we still have a great time making

1182
01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:04,320
Speaker 2: this music. For sure.

1183
01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:08,520
Speaker 1: Okay, you make a couple of independent records, Epic comes

1184
01:07:08,560 --> 01:07:13,680
Speaker 1: calling a did you have any trepidation signing with Epic,

1185
01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:15,960
Speaker 1: or you say we're in the big League's b you

1186
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:18,200
Speaker 1: say in the book, you're just doing your usual thing,

1187
01:07:19,040 --> 01:07:21,920
Speaker 1: and Epic is pushing and pushing for a record, and

1188
01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:25,840
Speaker 1: your normal process is to collect riffs and other ideas

1189
01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:28,680
Speaker 1: over a year and then this time you have to

1190
01:07:28,680 --> 01:07:30,400
Speaker 1: do it in shorter. I thought you were setting it

1191
01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:33,880
Speaker 1: up for like, well, it wouldn't be successful. It's a

1192
01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:37,600
Speaker 1: classic second album syndrome, But in this case it was

1193
01:07:37,640 --> 01:07:40,080
Speaker 1: so tell me about signing with the major label men

1194
01:07:40,600 --> 01:07:41,600
Speaker 1: making that record.

1195
01:07:43,120 --> 01:07:45,640
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's coming off the experience of that second

1196
01:07:45,640 --> 01:07:47,880
Speaker 2: record called As the Palace Has Burned that we did

1197
01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:52,480
Speaker 2: with the Prosthetic Records. We made the right video for

1198
01:07:52,520 --> 01:07:55,240
Speaker 2: the right song, We got the right attention, and it

1199
01:07:55,320 --> 01:07:58,880
Speaker 2: caught people's eyes at the next level, at the major

1200
01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:02,520
Speaker 2: label level, and they signed us. And they told us

1201
01:08:02,560 --> 01:08:06,240
Speaker 2: when they signed us, Kaz, the legendary A and R

1202
01:08:06,320 --> 01:08:10,560
Speaker 2: guy Caz came down and with Scott Greer, who is

1203
01:08:11,800 --> 01:08:13,760
Speaker 2: you know, working in conjunction with him at the time,

1204
01:08:13,800 --> 01:08:15,360
Speaker 2: and they came down and said, listen, we don't want

1205
01:08:15,360 --> 01:08:17,000
Speaker 2: to change anything about who you guys are. That's why

1206
01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:20,400
Speaker 2: we're signing you think you guys are the best example

1207
01:08:20,439 --> 01:08:22,280
Speaker 2: of this scene that's blowing up right now, that we

1208
01:08:22,720 --> 01:08:24,160
Speaker 2: just want to be part of it and we want

1209
01:08:24,280 --> 01:08:29,639
Speaker 2: you to be our engagement with that world. And they

1210
01:08:29,720 --> 01:08:33,880
Speaker 2: have proven true to that word because we're still on

1211
01:08:33,880 --> 01:08:38,479
Speaker 2: Epic records, and that was twenty years ago, more than

1212
01:08:38,479 --> 01:08:42,000
Speaker 2: twenty years ago. So but for me at the time,

1213
01:08:42,200 --> 01:08:46,559
Speaker 2: and I think for us collectively, we felt like a

1214
01:08:46,600 --> 01:08:50,200
Speaker 2: major label us, Okay, sure, let's do it. Let's make

1215
01:08:50,240 --> 01:08:51,759
Speaker 2: sure we do the right one, because there were several

1216
01:08:51,840 --> 01:08:55,839
Speaker 2: that came or that were sniffing around, and as I recall,

1217
01:08:55,960 --> 01:09:00,000
Speaker 2: Epic wasn't the they didn't have the biggest offer financially.

1218
01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:03,840
Speaker 2: As I recall, I remember there being another option that

1219
01:09:04,320 --> 01:09:07,240
Speaker 2: was for more money. But they didn't have that conversation

1220
01:09:07,280 --> 01:09:08,880
Speaker 2: that I just told you about. They didn't they didn't

1221
01:09:08,880 --> 01:09:10,880
Speaker 2: say we don't want to change anything. We think you

1222
01:09:10,920 --> 01:09:12,720
Speaker 2: guys are great, We just want to we just want

1223
01:09:12,720 --> 01:09:15,639
Speaker 2: to be a part of it. And that resonated with us,

1224
01:09:15,680 --> 01:09:19,920
Speaker 2: and again talking about sort of intention and deliberate things,

1225
01:09:19,960 --> 01:09:22,479
Speaker 2: and some of it's luck, but we believe that, and

1226
01:09:22,520 --> 01:09:28,160
Speaker 2: I think us paying attention and kind of tuning into

1227
01:09:28,200 --> 01:09:32,160
Speaker 2: that part of their presentation wind up being really a

1228
01:09:32,160 --> 01:09:35,639
Speaker 2: good move because we're still here, We're still on Epic Records.

1229
01:09:35,920 --> 01:09:38,800
Speaker 2: So but for us at the time, we were like, Okay, cool,

1230
01:09:38,840 --> 01:09:41,719
Speaker 2: we'll sign with your label, and that means we probably

1231
01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:43,439
Speaker 2: don't have to have a job for at least a

1232
01:09:43,520 --> 01:09:45,599
Speaker 2: year and a half two years until we get dropped.

1233
01:09:46,840 --> 01:09:48,479
Speaker 2: And that was the way we thought about it. We

1234
01:09:48,479 --> 01:09:50,000
Speaker 2: were just sure we were going to make a record

1235
01:09:50,000 --> 01:09:52,920
Speaker 2: for him and get dropped. But for me, meant I

1236
01:09:53,000 --> 01:09:54,920
Speaker 2: probably wouldn't have to be on a roof for at

1237
01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:57,599
Speaker 2: least a year, and that sounded like a great deal

1238
01:09:57,600 --> 01:09:57,840
Speaker 2: to me.

1239
01:09:58,479 --> 01:10:03,920
Speaker 1: Okay, couldn't Eventionally, BAM's complained the label is telling us

1240
01:10:03,960 --> 01:10:07,680
Speaker 1: what to do, and there's pressure. What's your experience bit.

1241
01:10:11,360 --> 01:10:16,240
Speaker 2: I don't remember ever hearing pressure to change anything about

1242
01:10:16,400 --> 01:10:22,280
Speaker 2: anything musically at all. I just remember, and I don't

1243
01:10:22,280 --> 01:10:23,960
Speaker 2: tell this story in the book, and I won't say

1244
01:10:23,960 --> 01:10:26,200
Speaker 2: the gentleman's name, but there was a record executive that

1245
01:10:26,240 --> 01:10:29,400
Speaker 2: came down early in and we were going to play

1246
01:10:30,040 --> 01:10:33,719
Speaker 2: him some new material and he was all jazzed up about,

1247
01:10:33,840 --> 01:10:36,479
Speaker 2: you know, we're gonna do this, and we've got this

1248
01:10:36,600 --> 01:10:39,120
Speaker 2: number for a budget for your first video, and we

1249
01:10:39,200 --> 01:10:41,960
Speaker 2: played him a couple songs and then on his way out,

1250
01:10:42,080 --> 01:10:44,479
Speaker 2: that sounds great, guys, we're gonna get right going. Don't

1251
01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:47,200
Speaker 2: forget we've got this number for your next video. And

1252
01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:50,120
Speaker 2: it was half that he had cut the budget between

1253
01:10:50,120 --> 01:10:52,760
Speaker 2: the time he'd walked in the room at the time

1254
01:10:52,800 --> 01:10:56,559
Speaker 2: he walked out. But I understood, you know, this is

1255
01:10:56,600 --> 01:10:59,519
Speaker 2: a hard sell. You know, this was really really extreme

1256
01:10:59,600 --> 01:11:03,240
Speaker 2: music for the time, especially We're we're you know, we're

1257
01:11:03,840 --> 01:11:06,800
Speaker 2: not so extreme anymore because things just continue to get

1258
01:11:06,920 --> 01:11:09,360
Speaker 2: heavier and heavier and more abrasive. But at the time

1259
01:11:09,840 --> 01:11:13,320
Speaker 2: for a major label band, we were we were really

1260
01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:16,080
Speaker 2: really heavy, really you know, verging on you know, to

1261
01:11:17,080 --> 01:11:20,479
Speaker 2: conventional ears unlistenable, right, So I understood that. I thought

1262
01:11:20,479 --> 01:11:23,559
Speaker 2: it was really funny. But to that point, no one

1263
01:11:23,640 --> 01:11:25,920
Speaker 2: ever ever said, hey, you guys, think maybe you want

1264
01:11:25,960 --> 01:11:28,200
Speaker 2: to sing a little more on this thing, or maybe

1265
01:11:28,439 --> 01:11:30,680
Speaker 2: we can we can shine this up a little bit.

1266
01:11:30,720 --> 01:11:33,240
Speaker 2: They really didn't. They really didn't. They let us be

1267
01:11:33,400 --> 01:11:35,840
Speaker 2: us and they and they still do. And I think

1268
01:11:35,880 --> 01:11:39,400
Speaker 2: that I hear all the horror stories and the complaints

1269
01:11:39,439 --> 01:11:42,200
Speaker 2: about major labels, and I don't discount any of them

1270
01:11:42,240 --> 01:11:44,800
Speaker 2: It's just not been my experience with Epic. We've just

1271
01:11:44,880 --> 01:11:47,320
Speaker 2: had such a great relationship with that label and had

1272
01:11:47,320 --> 01:11:49,800
Speaker 2: such a good run with them that fortunately for us,

1273
01:11:50,439 --> 01:11:53,160
Speaker 2: we've always always been really happy with our situation.

1274
01:11:53,600 --> 01:11:59,360
Speaker 1: Any pressure to be the deadline.

1275
01:11:57,600 --> 01:12:02,759
Speaker 2: Oh none. That I recall only that first record, only

1276
01:12:02,760 --> 01:12:06,679
Speaker 2: that first record, because and that was pressure just by

1277
01:12:06,760 --> 01:12:09,920
Speaker 2: nature of the situation. We had very recently released the

1278
01:12:09,960 --> 01:12:12,479
Speaker 2: as the Palaces Burn record, and then Epic signed us

1279
01:12:12,520 --> 01:12:14,280
Speaker 2: kind of right off the heels of that because it

1280
01:12:14,320 --> 01:12:18,080
Speaker 2: was it was popping. So when Epic signs you, when

1281
01:12:18,120 --> 01:12:20,599
Speaker 2: a major label signs you from from an independent label,

1282
01:12:21,600 --> 01:12:24,799
Speaker 2: they don't really care about you cycling out that record

1283
01:12:24,840 --> 01:12:28,000
Speaker 2: you just put put out and you going on tour

1284
01:12:28,040 --> 01:12:29,679
Speaker 2: for a year and a half to promote a record

1285
01:12:29,680 --> 01:12:33,360
Speaker 2: that is not theirs. You know, to hell with that record.

1286
01:12:33,360 --> 01:12:35,840
Speaker 2: We want our record. Now you're with us, Now, let's

1287
01:12:35,920 --> 01:12:38,479
Speaker 2: let's hear some music, you know. So in that sense,

1288
01:12:39,160 --> 01:12:41,720
Speaker 2: I felt a lot of pressure just to kind of

1289
01:12:41,800 --> 01:12:45,639
Speaker 2: catch up with the situation that we had just entered

1290
01:12:45,640 --> 01:12:48,800
Speaker 2: into the relationship we had just entered into creatively, I

1291
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:51,000
Speaker 2: had to catch up and be ready to give the music.

1292
01:12:51,120 --> 01:12:54,000
Speaker 2: And I had really just kind of squeezed myself out musically,

1293
01:12:54,080 --> 01:12:56,639
Speaker 2: me and the guys I'm write with, we felt kind

1294
01:12:56,640 --> 01:12:59,559
Speaker 2: of purged, and then all of a sudden, You've got

1295
01:12:59,600 --> 01:13:01,559
Speaker 2: to make the most important record of your life at

1296
01:13:01,600 --> 01:13:06,040
Speaker 2: the time, and frankly, probably still was the most important

1297
01:13:06,040 --> 01:13:08,000
Speaker 2: record in my life, although I don't think of it

1298
01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:09,600
Speaker 2: that way until now, but you know, it was a

1299
01:13:09,680 --> 01:13:12,720
Speaker 2: very very pivotal record in your career. And certainly at

1300
01:13:12,760 --> 01:13:14,960
Speaker 2: the time it wasn't lost on me that I was like, well,

1301
01:13:15,280 --> 01:13:16,720
Speaker 2: I gotta make a hell of a record. This is

1302
01:13:16,760 --> 01:13:20,759
Speaker 2: my first major label record, and I don't have anything.

1303
01:13:20,840 --> 01:13:23,760
Speaker 2: I don't have anything, So in that sense that there

1304
01:13:23,840 --> 01:13:27,040
Speaker 2: was pressure, but it wasn't someone saying, hey, guys, you're late.

1305
01:13:27,200 --> 01:13:28,160
Speaker 2: It wasn't that kind of thing.

1306
01:13:29,040 --> 01:13:34,960
Speaker 1: Okay. Throughout the book there's a theme of addiction. Hey

1307
01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:41,240
Speaker 1: you're a middle class guy, be your intelligence. See you're educated.

1308
01:13:41,479 --> 01:13:45,160
Speaker 1: D It's a cliche. Wasn't there part of you saying,

1309
01:13:45,280 --> 01:13:47,479
Speaker 1: wait a second, what am I doing here?

1310
01:13:49,520 --> 01:13:53,960
Speaker 2: The thing about addiction and alcoholism, Bob, if it was

1311
01:13:54,600 --> 01:13:58,679
Speaker 2: a matter of intelligence, or if it was a matter

1312
01:13:58,760 --> 01:14:07,760
Speaker 2: of morality, it would be it would be eradicated. Some

1313
01:14:07,840 --> 01:14:17,080
Speaker 2: of the most intelligent thoughtful, kindest, most creative, most exceptional

1314
01:14:17,120 --> 01:14:20,800
Speaker 2: people I know have been drug addicts and alcoholics, and

1315
01:14:20,840 --> 01:14:28,400
Speaker 2: I think it can sometimes be mischaracterized as a lapse

1316
01:14:28,479 --> 01:14:34,720
Speaker 2: in judgment, or elapse in planning, or ellapse in consideration.

1317
01:14:35,439 --> 01:14:39,040
Speaker 2: And in my personal experience and the vast experience I've

1318
01:14:39,080 --> 01:14:42,559
Speaker 2: had with other addicts and alcoholics, none of those things

1319
01:14:42,840 --> 01:14:44,080
Speaker 2: are factors.

1320
01:14:45,520 --> 01:14:51,519
Speaker 1: Well, looking back at your not brief period with drugs

1321
01:14:51,560 --> 01:14:55,880
Speaker 1: and alcohol, what flip the switch? Let me just give

1322
01:14:55,880 --> 01:14:59,920
Speaker 1: a couple of concepts. I mean, for me, if you

1323
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:03,040
Speaker 1: you're in a band, and you're a successful band, you

1324
01:15:03,120 --> 01:15:06,920
Speaker 1: go and you play the thousands, they go home, you're

1325
01:15:06,960 --> 01:15:10,400
Speaker 1: on the bus, It's impossible to calm down, it's impossible

1326
01:15:10,400 --> 01:15:11,920
Speaker 1: to sleep. You got to get up and do again.

1327
01:15:12,360 --> 01:15:15,000
Speaker 1: What were the driving forces of your addiction?

1328
01:15:18,000 --> 01:15:22,920
Speaker 2: I believe that I would have been an addict alcoholic

1329
01:15:23,680 --> 01:15:26,240
Speaker 2: if I had been a roofer, if I had been

1330
01:15:27,160 --> 01:15:30,360
Speaker 2: a political science professor, or if I had been a

1331
01:15:30,479 --> 01:15:34,040
Speaker 2: rock star, if you will, I believe that drugs and

1332
01:15:34,080 --> 01:15:42,200
Speaker 2: alcohol react with my chemistry and my emotional and psychological

1333
01:15:42,600 --> 01:15:48,040
Speaker 2: makeup in a way that has a very very soothing

1334
01:15:48,120 --> 01:15:51,000
Speaker 2: and calming effect, in a way that is different than

1335
01:15:51,720 --> 01:15:57,640
Speaker 2: how it might react with you physiologically, which in my opinion,

1336
01:15:58,680 --> 01:16:09,240
Speaker 2: hijacks my reward system or my sense of wellness. And

1337
01:16:09,920 --> 01:16:13,080
Speaker 2: I'm not a doctor. I'm not an addictionologist, if that's

1338
01:16:13,120 --> 01:16:15,840
Speaker 2: actually a thing, or I'm not a therapist. I'm not

1339
01:16:15,880 --> 01:16:18,960
Speaker 2: any of those things. But I am an addict in recovery,

1340
01:16:19,080 --> 01:16:22,599
Speaker 2: and so I have lived a life before drugs and alcohol.

1341
01:16:22,760 --> 01:16:25,960
Speaker 2: I have lived a life extensively ruled by drugs and alcohol,

1342
01:16:26,160 --> 01:16:30,839
Speaker 2: and I have a life now that doesn't include them.

1343
01:16:31,120 --> 01:16:36,240
Speaker 2: And based on that experience, it's my understanding and my

1344
01:16:36,360 --> 01:16:45,280
Speaker 2: belief that the relief and the sense of security that

1345
01:16:45,320 --> 01:16:48,080
Speaker 2: the addict feels when they're exposed to their drug of

1346
01:16:48,160 --> 01:16:55,360
Speaker 2: choice is something that is so compelling and so necessary

1347
01:16:56,200 --> 01:17:01,240
Speaker 2: for their kind of mental state that uh, it can't

1348
01:17:01,280 --> 01:17:05,920
Speaker 2: be out intellectualized.

1349
01:17:14,360 --> 01:17:18,440
Speaker 1: Okay, let's to the degree you can. Can you separate

1350
01:17:18,520 --> 01:17:22,560
Speaker 1: your addiction from alcohol to your addiction primarily to opiates.

1351
01:17:22,920 --> 01:17:26,160
Speaker 1: Were they two separate things? Was essentially the same thing?

1352
01:17:26,520 --> 01:17:28,400
Speaker 1: Did one lead to another? What can you.

1353
01:17:28,360 --> 01:17:35,000
Speaker 2: Tell us as it's as far as I believe, the

1354
01:17:35,040 --> 01:17:38,719
Speaker 2: only difference between an addiction to alcohol and an addiction

1355
01:17:38,800 --> 01:17:43,840
Speaker 2: to opiates is it's the same as you like Thai

1356
01:17:44,000 --> 01:17:48,120
Speaker 2: food and I like Indian food. It's addiction is addiction

1357
01:17:48,200 --> 01:17:51,240
Speaker 2: and alcohol is a drug. There is a difference in

1358
01:17:51,280 --> 01:17:53,840
Speaker 2: the sense that one is legal and the other is not,

1359
01:17:54,120 --> 01:17:57,759
Speaker 2: except under specific circumstances. But I don't think the legal

1360
01:17:57,800 --> 01:18:02,920
Speaker 2: status of a particular substance and really governs many people's

1361
01:18:05,320 --> 01:18:08,400
Speaker 2: attraction to one versus the other. I don't think that

1362
01:18:08,520 --> 01:18:12,479
Speaker 2: is a very guiding premise when it comes to one's

1363
01:18:14,120 --> 01:18:19,559
Speaker 2: engagement with alcohol or drugs. For me personally, as you asked,

1364
01:18:20,320 --> 01:18:25,960
Speaker 2: I think I drank alcoholically for a very long time,

1365
01:18:26,000 --> 01:18:29,240
Speaker 2: and I think I was what we sort of colloquially

1366
01:18:29,439 --> 01:18:34,880
Speaker 2: refer to as a high functioning alcoholic. I drank every day,

1367
01:18:34,880 --> 01:18:38,640
Speaker 2: and I drank heavily, but it did not impact my

1368
01:18:38,800 --> 01:18:43,479
Speaker 2: daily routines and my relationships to the degree that my

1369
01:18:43,600 --> 01:18:49,400
Speaker 2: opiate use eventually did. It certainly impacted those things, but

1370
01:18:49,560 --> 01:18:52,400
Speaker 2: not to the degree and not with the same dire

1371
01:18:52,760 --> 01:19:01,320
Speaker 2: and consequences with the same expedients that my opiate.

1372
01:19:01,000 --> 01:19:05,840
Speaker 1: Eustd Okay, you a couple of times in the book

1373
01:19:05,920 --> 01:19:09,880
Speaker 1: you say you talk about the drugs and addiction being equal,

1374
01:19:09,920 --> 01:19:13,280
Speaker 1: but you really do not enjoy cocaine.

1375
01:19:15,439 --> 01:19:17,479
Speaker 2: For a guy that hates it, I sure did enough

1376
01:19:17,520 --> 01:19:17,840
Speaker 2: of it.

1377
01:19:19,760 --> 01:19:21,479
Speaker 1: Well, that didn't come across of the book, and the

1378
01:19:21,479 --> 01:19:24,559
Speaker 1: book it sounded like you did it rarely. So what

1379
01:19:24,600 --> 01:19:26,120
Speaker 1: was your problem with cocaine?

1380
01:19:27,240 --> 01:19:30,640
Speaker 2: I just don't really like the buzz man. It turns

1381
01:19:30,320 --> 01:19:35,880
Speaker 2: it's instant asshole powder. I've never met anyone that was

1382
01:19:36,560 --> 01:19:39,719
Speaker 2: more fun to be around when they're doing cocaine, unless

1383
01:19:39,800 --> 01:19:41,160
Speaker 2: I was doing it and they had some.

1384
01:19:42,520 --> 01:19:47,879
Speaker 1: Okay, when you're taking opiates, you're kind of checking out

1385
01:19:48,200 --> 01:19:52,680
Speaker 1: and you're kind of removed alcohol. You know, it can

1386
01:19:52,760 --> 01:19:55,559
Speaker 1: make you more of a party person, make you more verbal,

1387
01:19:55,640 --> 01:19:59,799
Speaker 1: make you more of a fighter. But did you find

1388
01:19:59,840 --> 01:20:02,280
Speaker 1: the the effects of opiates? What was it like being

1389
01:20:02,320 --> 01:20:06,519
Speaker 1: the person taking the opiates?

1390
01:20:07,520 --> 01:20:12,320
Speaker 2: For me, it would early in. I mean, there's there

1391
01:20:12,400 --> 01:20:15,720
Speaker 2: is a so there's a curve to this stuff. You know,

1392
01:20:15,760 --> 01:20:18,639
Speaker 2: at first it works, and then for a while it works,

1393
01:20:18,680 --> 01:20:22,680
Speaker 2: and then it stops working, and you wonder why it's

1394
01:20:22,720 --> 01:20:24,680
Speaker 2: not working the same anymore. So you do more, or

1395
01:20:24,720 --> 01:20:27,240
Speaker 2: you do different versions of it, or you administer it

1396
01:20:27,320 --> 01:20:32,080
Speaker 2: in different ways, trying to find a reason why it's

1397
01:20:32,120 --> 01:20:36,080
Speaker 2: not doing what it used to do. As it turns out,

1398
01:20:36,120 --> 01:20:39,080
Speaker 2: that's just how addiction works. But when you're in it,

1399
01:20:39,160 --> 01:20:42,599
Speaker 2: you don't realize that, so you're chasing it. The question

1400
01:20:42,760 --> 01:20:45,880
Speaker 2: is how did opiates make me feel? And I think

1401
01:20:45,880 --> 01:20:47,920
Speaker 2: what you're getting at is why in particular was I

1402
01:20:48,040 --> 01:20:52,879
Speaker 2: drawn to that type of drug. For me, it created

1403
01:20:53,000 --> 01:20:56,600
Speaker 2: early on a sense of well being and it's a

1404
01:20:57,400 --> 01:21:00,439
Speaker 2: cure for anxiety that I tend to carry with me

1405
01:21:00,840 --> 01:21:04,720
Speaker 2: through my day to day life. And you know I've

1406
01:21:04,720 --> 01:21:07,200
Speaker 2: said before and this is by new means trying to

1407
01:21:07,240 --> 01:21:10,880
Speaker 2: promote or glamorize anything, but to me, for me, at

1408
01:21:10,960 --> 01:21:14,040
Speaker 2: least not to me, but for me, ope, it's were

1409
01:21:14,080 --> 01:21:17,120
Speaker 2: the best anxiety medicine I'd ever come across, far better

1410
01:21:17,160 --> 01:21:20,759
Speaker 2: than alcohol or anything else. So when I became exposed

1411
01:21:20,800 --> 01:21:25,320
Speaker 2: to that in a recreational sense, I realized that, without

1412
01:21:25,520 --> 01:21:30,080
Speaker 2: really getting too detailed in my analysis of it, I

1413
01:21:30,160 --> 01:21:37,280
Speaker 2: just knew that that made me feel very, very okay,

1414
01:21:38,920 --> 01:21:41,559
Speaker 2: and I liked that feeling. I wasn't worried about much

1415
01:21:41,560 --> 01:21:42,240
Speaker 2: of anything.

1416
01:21:42,080 --> 01:21:47,640
Speaker 1: Okay, anxiety, I would assume. You know, if you're clean now,

1417
01:21:47,920 --> 01:21:50,559
Speaker 1: anxiety is popping up all the time. When do you

1418
01:21:50,640 --> 01:21:54,400
Speaker 1: encounter anxiety? How do you cope with it without drugs?

1419
01:21:55,479 --> 01:22:09,760
Speaker 2: Well? I still certainly experience anxiety. I think I don't

1420
01:22:09,760 --> 01:22:12,920
Speaker 2: really know how to answer that, Bob, except to say, you.

1421
01:22:12,840 --> 01:22:15,040
Speaker 1: Know, let me ask a different way.

1422
01:22:15,240 --> 01:22:18,160
Speaker 2: Okay, do you take Xanax.

1423
01:22:17,720 --> 01:22:20,520
Speaker 1: Or out of van or any other anti anxiety medications?

1424
01:22:21,000 --> 01:22:24,320
Speaker 2: No? I don't take any mood or mine altering drugs. Oh, okay, don't.

1425
01:22:24,400 --> 01:22:26,080
Speaker 2: I don't take niqlo when I have the flu.

1426
01:22:26,360 --> 01:22:30,520
Speaker 1: Okay. So let's just assume I say, hey, Mark, tomorrow,

1427
01:22:30,520 --> 01:22:35,520
Speaker 1: we're gonna go to the airport, not private, we're flying commercial,

1428
01:22:35,720 --> 01:22:37,759
Speaker 1: and then we got to be here by this time.

1429
01:22:38,120 --> 01:22:40,000
Speaker 1: Is your anxiety starting to rise?

1430
01:22:41,439 --> 01:22:44,280
Speaker 2: Yeah? It is? It is it? Actually it is. But

1431
01:22:44,720 --> 01:22:47,000
Speaker 2: don't you think these are life on life's terms kind

1432
01:22:47,000 --> 01:22:49,439
Speaker 2: of things? I mean that this is, you know, I

1433
01:22:49,479 --> 01:22:55,640
Speaker 2: think I have been able, through a process of recovery

1434
01:22:55,720 --> 01:22:59,240
Speaker 2: to put myself in a state of kind of mindfulness

1435
01:22:59,560 --> 01:23:04,320
Speaker 2: and acceptance of the terms of my life on any

1436
01:23:04,360 --> 01:23:06,360
Speaker 2: given day, which is a very good life, by the way.

1437
01:23:07,760 --> 01:23:11,400
Speaker 2: And more than anything, I have learned that at whatever

1438
01:23:11,520 --> 01:23:15,479
Speaker 2: anxiety I might be feeling or confronted with at any

1439
01:23:15,560 --> 01:23:19,040
Speaker 2: given time, or whatever self doubt or self loathing, or

1440
01:23:19,080 --> 01:23:22,439
Speaker 2: all of these things that were for a time treated

1441
01:23:22,479 --> 01:23:26,599
Speaker 2: successfully by drugs and alcohol and then later treated entirely

1442
01:23:26,680 --> 01:23:31,439
Speaker 2: unsuccessfully by them. What I have learned is that whatever

1443
01:23:31,479 --> 01:23:37,599
Speaker 2: I'm experiencing is temporary and is never worth going back

1444
01:23:37,640 --> 01:23:39,760
Speaker 2: to the way I was living, because I live under

1445
01:23:39,800 --> 01:23:43,599
Speaker 2: the assumption that if I use drugs or alcohol at

1446
01:23:43,640 --> 01:23:46,599
Speaker 2: all of any kind, then I will in short time

1447
01:23:47,040 --> 01:23:49,800
Speaker 2: be where I was at the end of my run,

1448
01:23:49,960 --> 01:23:52,439
Speaker 2: and that is a place I never care to be again.

1449
01:23:53,640 --> 01:23:58,599
Speaker 1: So your philosophy is it self created or is that

1450
01:23:58,640 --> 01:24:03,439
Speaker 1: a result of therapy? You're a twelve step program.

1451
01:24:03,840 --> 01:24:07,519
Speaker 2: I certainly work a recovery program, and I've also have

1452
01:24:07,600 --> 01:24:12,000
Speaker 2: a good therapist, and I've also done a lot of

1453
01:24:12,040 --> 01:24:14,120
Speaker 2: thinking about this myself and have a lot of experience

1454
01:24:14,120 --> 01:24:14,400
Speaker 2: in it.

1455
01:24:15,840 --> 01:24:18,960
Speaker 1: Okay, a lot of times, you know, you're talking about things,

1456
01:24:19,040 --> 01:24:22,080
Speaker 1: especially guys, they don't talk about it. But a lot

1457
01:24:22,120 --> 01:24:29,000
Speaker 1: of people with anxiety issues deal with this via avoidance. Okay,

1458
01:24:29,080 --> 01:24:32,800
Speaker 1: But in your case, you can say, hey, it's gonna

1459
01:24:32,840 --> 01:24:35,400
Speaker 1: upset me, it's gonna make me buzz, but I can

1460
01:24:35,439 --> 01:24:36,120
Speaker 1: go forward.

1461
01:24:38,120 --> 01:24:43,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. I think knowing the depth that

1462
01:24:43,680 --> 01:24:49,160
Speaker 2: I have dug to in my life trying to hide

1463
01:24:49,240 --> 01:24:55,200
Speaker 2: and escape and make myself disappear, you know, you just

1464
01:24:55,320 --> 01:25:02,840
Speaker 2: wind up in a room by yourself, angry, doing drugs alone.

1465
01:25:03,000 --> 01:25:04,360
Speaker 2: I don't want to live like that anymore.

1466
01:25:05,360 --> 01:25:08,479
Speaker 1: Okay, you detail that you have a girlfriend in New

1467
01:25:08,560 --> 01:25:13,920
Speaker 1: York working in the music business. Ultimately you marry someone

1468
01:25:13,960 --> 01:25:19,920
Speaker 1: in Richmond. You have the unfortunate experience of the first

1469
01:25:20,000 --> 01:25:23,639
Speaker 1: child not continuing to live, but you have the second child,

1470
01:25:24,439 --> 01:25:28,920
Speaker 1: and then the woman you're married to moves out. There's

1471
01:25:28,920 --> 01:25:31,599
Speaker 1: not a lot of discussion about that. Later in the book,

1472
01:25:31,680 --> 01:25:35,559
Speaker 1: you say, well, she wasn't the right one. Was she

1473
01:25:35,760 --> 01:25:38,559
Speaker 1: not the right one and you didn't marry the right one?

1474
01:25:38,920 --> 01:25:41,640
Speaker 1: Or was it drugs? What was going on in that

1475
01:25:41,720 --> 01:25:42,800
Speaker 1: first relationship.

1476
01:25:45,080 --> 01:25:51,240
Speaker 2: I don't really think it's fair too tell other people's

1477
01:25:51,280 --> 01:25:56,840
Speaker 2: part of this story that aren't necessarily involved in the storytelling.

1478
01:25:57,120 --> 01:26:01,280
Speaker 2: So there's some components of along the way that I

1479
01:26:01,360 --> 01:26:05,080
Speaker 2: left out or that I glossed over, and that was deliberate.

1480
01:26:07,760 --> 01:26:12,720
Speaker 1: Okay, you ultimately meet another woman. She's a bartender and

1481
01:26:12,760 --> 01:26:16,719
Speaker 1: she's a big drinker. This isn't a red flag.

1482
01:26:18,600 --> 01:26:25,240
Speaker 3: Well, you know, you're asking a guy that's throwing red

1483
01:26:25,280 --> 01:26:28,759
Speaker 3: flags everywhere he walks to have a red flag.

1484
01:26:28,880 --> 01:26:31,400
Speaker 2: Right at that point in time, I was a red flag.

1485
01:26:31,880 --> 01:26:34,320
Speaker 2: I was a blinking red neon sign.

1486
01:26:35,720 --> 01:26:37,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. But the way the book is written, which of

1487
01:26:37,680 --> 01:26:40,680
Speaker 1: course written words and emotions are two different things. You know,

1488
01:26:40,720 --> 01:26:43,880
Speaker 1: you kind of say that this person was testing the limits,

1489
01:26:44,400 --> 01:26:50,439
Speaker 1: and okay, you're overseas and she starts to recover. To

1490
01:26:50,560 --> 01:26:55,160
Speaker 1: what degree was her decision to recover impactful on you?

1491
01:26:55,200 --> 01:26:57,880
Speaker 1: Would you have recovered at that point in time if

1492
01:26:57,920 --> 01:26:59,640
Speaker 1: you were not involved with her and she had not

1493
01:26:59,720 --> 01:27:00,800
Speaker 1: start did recovery?

1494
01:27:01,240 --> 01:27:05,400
Speaker 2: Okay, that's a great question, all of that question. I

1495
01:27:05,439 --> 01:27:08,360
Speaker 2: think when I met that person, the fact that she

1496
01:27:08,520 --> 01:27:12,439
Speaker 2: didn't do hard drugs was you know, you characterize her

1497
01:27:12,439 --> 01:27:14,599
Speaker 2: heavy drinking as a red flag. To me, the fact

1498
01:27:14,640 --> 01:27:19,160
Speaker 2: that she didn't do hard drugs, which is contrary to

1499
01:27:19,320 --> 01:27:21,839
Speaker 2: my philosophy that I that I pointed out to you earlier,

1500
01:27:21,920 --> 01:27:24,360
Speaker 2: which is true. What I truly believe that alcohol is

1501
01:27:24,439 --> 01:27:27,040
Speaker 2: a drug like any other. But at the time I

1502
01:27:27,240 --> 01:27:35,920
Speaker 2: was engaging in this sort of cultural you know, mischaracterization

1503
01:27:36,160 --> 01:27:39,920
Speaker 2: as alcohol as being the lesser of evils, right, So

1504
01:27:40,160 --> 01:27:42,920
Speaker 2: I was I was subscribing to that notion, and to me,

1505
01:27:43,120 --> 01:27:45,280
Speaker 2: the fact that she didn't do hard drugs was a win.

1506
01:27:46,120 --> 01:27:50,000
Speaker 2: So I certainly liked her quite a bit and had

1507
01:27:50,000 --> 01:27:52,040
Speaker 2: a lot of feelings for anyway, But I was able

1508
01:27:52,080 --> 01:27:57,200
Speaker 2: to convince myself that she is this is great because

1509
01:27:57,200 --> 01:28:00,479
Speaker 2: all she does is drink, and that's going to help me.

1510
01:28:01,080 --> 01:28:03,000
Speaker 2: Is because I'm gonna be with her, you know, obviously

1511
01:28:03,000 --> 01:28:04,559
Speaker 2: we spend a lot of time together. That's gonna help

1512
01:28:04,560 --> 01:28:06,600
Speaker 2: me stay away from hard drugs. Turned out not to

1513
01:28:06,600 --> 01:28:09,840
Speaker 2: be true. And I used to tell her all the time,

1514
01:28:09,840 --> 01:28:12,599
Speaker 2: I'm postponing the inevitable. I really really need to get clean.

1515
01:28:12,640 --> 01:28:14,320
Speaker 2: I just you know, I just haven't seen it. And

1516
01:28:14,479 --> 01:28:16,360
Speaker 2: you know, I had already been to treatment and that

1517
01:28:16,439 --> 01:28:18,680
Speaker 2: didn't work, and so I was, you know, I was

1518
01:28:18,720 --> 01:28:20,559
Speaker 2: starting at by this point in the book, and by

1519
01:28:20,560 --> 01:28:22,559
Speaker 2: this point, my story is starting to bounce back and

1520
01:28:22,600 --> 01:28:28,439
Speaker 2: forth between these attempts to at the time what I

1521
01:28:28,479 --> 01:28:31,680
Speaker 2: thought would be able to control my addiction, and it

1522
01:28:31,720 --> 01:28:34,800
Speaker 2: turns out that I can't control it.

1523
01:28:37,120 --> 01:28:42,839
Speaker 1: Okay, getting off opiates, just like Pete Townsend said, getting

1524
01:28:42,880 --> 01:28:45,920
Speaker 1: off heroin was nothing compared to getting off out of

1525
01:28:46,040 --> 01:28:49,640
Speaker 1: man getting off opiates. Even if you know, I just know,

1526
01:28:49,720 --> 01:28:52,920
Speaker 1: if I have an operation, whatever I'm taking opiates, there's

1527
01:28:52,960 --> 01:28:56,120
Speaker 1: gonna be one night where I just cannot fall asleep

1528
01:28:56,160 --> 01:29:01,120
Speaker 1: at when I'm stopping them. Okay, so you talk about

1529
01:29:01,160 --> 01:29:04,639
Speaker 1: going cold Turkey a number of times just because drugs

1530
01:29:04,640 --> 01:29:09,320
Speaker 1: aren't even available. Never at that time do you say

1531
01:29:09,360 --> 01:29:12,120
Speaker 1: that was such a painful process. I'm going to think

1532
01:29:12,120 --> 01:29:13,639
Speaker 1: twice before I start again.

1533
01:29:15,280 --> 01:29:22,240
Speaker 2: You are again applying this notion that logic and intellect

1534
01:29:22,520 --> 01:29:27,000
Speaker 2: plays a factor. And I understand why one might feel

1535
01:29:27,000 --> 01:29:32,880
Speaker 2: compelled to do that, but for me, it was never.

1536
01:29:33,120 --> 01:29:36,439
Speaker 2: You know, I think you know, I considered myself all

1537
01:29:36,479 --> 01:29:40,320
Speaker 2: along to be a relatively intelligent guy. It wasn't a

1538
01:29:40,360 --> 01:29:46,280
Speaker 2: matter of don't touch the stove because last time you

1539
01:29:46,360 --> 01:29:50,599
Speaker 2: touched it, it burned you. You know, the addict's brain

1540
01:29:50,760 --> 01:29:53,200
Speaker 2: tells you, h, well, it's not going to burn you

1541
01:29:53,240 --> 01:29:55,320
Speaker 2: this time, and you really should touch it.

1542
01:29:56,600 --> 01:29:58,320
Speaker 1: And what did your parents say about your addiction?

1543
01:30:00,120 --> 01:30:06,000
Speaker 2: Well, they were well. My father passed away while I

1544
01:30:06,120 --> 01:30:08,160
Speaker 2: was in treatment. The first time I ever went to treatment,

1545
01:30:08,240 --> 01:30:11,280
Speaker 2: which I talk about in the book, was really a

1546
01:30:11,320 --> 01:30:15,640
Speaker 2: godsend because the hospital he was in dying in was

1547
01:30:16,080 --> 01:30:17,840
Speaker 2: just down the street from the treatment center I was in,

1548
01:30:17,840 --> 01:30:19,120
Speaker 2: so I was able to go see him, and I

1549
01:30:19,160 --> 01:30:21,760
Speaker 2: was able to go see him during a forty five

1550
01:30:21,840 --> 01:30:24,839
Speaker 2: day window that I was not strung out on drugs.

1551
01:30:25,080 --> 01:30:28,040
Speaker 2: So my dad and I were very, very very close,

1552
01:30:28,080 --> 01:30:30,160
Speaker 2: and he knew I had a problem, and for the

1553
01:30:30,200 --> 01:30:33,160
Speaker 2: most part, I managed to still engage with my dad

1554
01:30:33,280 --> 01:30:36,280
Speaker 2: in a way that didn't directly confront him with my addiction.

1555
01:30:37,160 --> 01:30:41,280
Speaker 2: But for those last couple weeks I was clean. And

1556
01:30:41,320 --> 01:30:43,559
Speaker 2: then he passed away, and that was such a gift

1557
01:30:43,600 --> 01:30:45,600
Speaker 2: for me. Gosh, it's such a gift for me to

1558
01:30:45,720 --> 01:30:50,479
Speaker 2: know that I had that clarity and that pure time

1559
01:30:50,520 --> 01:30:53,519
Speaker 2: with my father while he was dying. Such a gift.

1560
01:30:53,560 --> 01:30:56,479
Speaker 2: Of course, didn't keep me clean, but I did have

1561
01:30:56,520 --> 01:30:59,080
Speaker 2: that window, and that's so valuable to me. It's priceless.

1562
01:31:01,120 --> 01:31:07,280
Speaker 2: And your mother, my mother was you know, she was

1563
01:31:07,320 --> 01:31:09,320
Speaker 2: probably the only effort. There were times when she was

1564
01:31:09,360 --> 01:31:11,479
Speaker 2: probably the only person in the world that believed it,

1565
01:31:11,520 --> 01:31:15,120
Speaker 2: that was left that believed in me. She as she

1566
01:31:15,200 --> 01:31:17,720
Speaker 2: tells me to this day, my mom's still here and

1567
01:31:18,160 --> 01:31:20,439
Speaker 2: she's an incredible woman, and she tells me this today.

1568
01:31:20,479 --> 01:31:22,640
Speaker 2: She said, I always knew you were going to make it.

1569
01:31:22,640 --> 01:31:24,280
Speaker 2: It was tearing me apart to see what you were

1570
01:31:24,320 --> 01:31:26,120
Speaker 2: going through, but I always knew you were going to

1571
01:31:26,160 --> 01:31:26,479
Speaker 2: make it.

1572
01:31:27,000 --> 01:31:30,720
Speaker 1: Okay, stopping the way in the book, it seems like

1573
01:31:30,800 --> 01:31:35,280
Speaker 1: it's a personal decision in twelve step program. Is that accurate.

1574
01:31:36,880 --> 01:31:38,960
Speaker 2: Well, I don't want to talk too much about program,

1575
01:31:39,040 --> 01:31:40,920
Speaker 2: because you know the program.

1576
01:31:40,960 --> 01:31:42,840
Speaker 1: Well, I'm just trying to say I don't need to

1577
01:31:42,880 --> 01:31:45,080
Speaker 1: know the specifics. What I'm trying to say is some

1578
01:31:45,160 --> 01:31:49,240
Speaker 1: people go to rehab, some people have medical intervention. The

1579
01:31:49,280 --> 01:31:53,120
Speaker 1: way the book read, it seemed like the program, along

1580
01:31:53,200 --> 01:31:56,800
Speaker 1: with a desire, was all it took to quit permanently.

1581
01:31:57,080 --> 01:31:57,759
Speaker 1: Is that true?

1582
01:31:58,439 --> 01:32:03,080
Speaker 2: Well, I never say permanently. Good point, I never say permanently.

1583
01:32:03,720 --> 01:32:05,120
Speaker 2: I do it a day at a time, and it's

1584
01:32:05,160 --> 01:32:09,040
Speaker 2: been five years and eleven months a day to time.

1585
01:32:09,320 --> 01:32:14,800
Speaker 2: So I think for me it took this well, as

1586
01:32:14,840 --> 01:32:17,240
Speaker 2: we call it, this gift of desperation. I was so

1587
01:32:19,200 --> 01:32:22,200
Speaker 2: just dead inside. I was so there was nothing was working.

1588
01:32:22,240 --> 01:32:26,040
Speaker 2: I couldn't the relief I was chasing through drugs and

1589
01:32:26,080 --> 01:32:30,040
Speaker 2: alcohol was no longer available from drugs and alcohol. And

1590
01:32:30,080 --> 01:32:32,679
Speaker 2: after beating my head against that wall so many times

1591
01:32:32,680 --> 01:32:35,840
Speaker 2: and not getting in, I finally began to concede that

1592
01:32:35,920 --> 01:32:38,680
Speaker 2: this just wasn't working anymore. And it just seemed to

1593
01:32:38,720 --> 01:32:42,720
Speaker 2: consistently be not working. So if it wasn't working then,

1594
01:32:42,800 --> 01:32:45,120
Speaker 2: I don't know what to do. So what I did

1595
01:32:45,320 --> 01:32:49,040
Speaker 2: was I started putting myself around people that had been

1596
01:32:49,080 --> 01:32:51,679
Speaker 2: through that as well and just started taking their advice

1597
01:32:51,720 --> 01:32:53,479
Speaker 2: and hanging out with them and doing the things that

1598
01:32:53,520 --> 01:32:57,559
Speaker 2: they did. And over time, very sort of I was

1599
01:32:57,680 --> 01:33:01,200
Speaker 2: angry about it. I was resentful about it. It felt

1600
01:33:01,200 --> 01:33:04,439
Speaker 2: like breaking up with a girlfriend that was madly in

1601
01:33:04,479 --> 01:33:09,280
Speaker 2: love with. But over time I started collecting a little

1602
01:33:09,280 --> 01:33:11,840
Speaker 2: bit of sobriety time and my life started to get better.

1603
01:33:12,560 --> 01:33:16,360
Speaker 2: And coincidentally, the woman that I was in a relationship

1604
01:33:16,360 --> 01:33:19,880
Speaker 2: with was doing that across the Atlantic at the same

1605
01:33:19,920 --> 01:33:23,599
Speaker 2: time as me, and we, you know, we're she's down

1606
01:33:23,640 --> 01:33:26,040
Speaker 2: the hall. We're married today, we have we have a

1607
01:33:26,160 --> 01:33:30,880
Speaker 2: child together, and we you know, reflect on that time

1608
01:33:30,920 --> 01:33:34,240
Speaker 2: and say, you know, we didn't get sober together. We

1609
01:33:34,280 --> 01:33:35,559
Speaker 2: got sober at the same time.

1610
01:33:36,360 --> 01:33:39,759
Speaker 1: Okay, you talk about Randy the lead singer, being clean

1611
01:33:39,960 --> 01:33:44,479
Speaker 1: when you're addicted. The members of the band listen to

1612
01:33:44,520 --> 01:33:48,880
Speaker 1: most bands drink, you know, they party whatever were you

1613
01:33:48,920 --> 01:33:51,400
Speaker 1: were addicted. Was there anybody else in the band who

1614
01:33:51,479 --> 01:33:52,040
Speaker 1: was addicted?

1615
01:33:53,680 --> 01:33:56,200
Speaker 2: I don't I wouldn't answer that if there was, or

1616
01:33:56,240 --> 01:33:58,080
Speaker 2: if there wasn't. You know, that's not the kind of

1617
01:33:58,080 --> 01:33:58,719
Speaker 2: thing you say.

1618
01:33:58,680 --> 01:34:02,720
Speaker 1: That I don't need to know names. I'm asking a

1619
01:34:02,720 --> 01:34:06,200
Speaker 1: different question. Are you the lone outsider or is this

1620
01:34:06,360 --> 01:34:07,960
Speaker 1: the nature of the act?

1621
01:34:10,040 --> 01:34:14,080
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I think everyone in our band at

1622
01:34:14,080 --> 01:34:17,519
Speaker 2: some point has had their own relationship with alcohol and

1623
01:34:17,720 --> 01:34:25,000
Speaker 2: or drugs. You know, Randy is vocally and publicly sober,

1624
01:34:25,040 --> 01:34:25,880
Speaker 2: and I am as well.

1625
01:34:34,880 --> 01:34:38,920
Speaker 1: Okay, what is the state of metal music today?

1626
01:34:41,200 --> 01:34:44,479
Speaker 2: Well, that's a great question. The state of metal music today.

1627
01:34:44,520 --> 01:34:48,840
Speaker 2: It's exciting, it's really exciting. There's a lot of young

1628
01:34:48,920 --> 01:34:54,639
Speaker 2: bands that I see popping up that are referencing bands

1629
01:34:54,640 --> 01:34:57,280
Speaker 2: that I remember when we were coming up, and so

1630
01:34:57,400 --> 01:34:59,800
Speaker 2: it's it's I'm old enough where I can see things

1631
01:35:00,120 --> 01:35:02,600
Speaker 2: to come back around and see like a lot of

1632
01:35:02,640 --> 01:35:05,520
Speaker 2: the Scandinavian influence and a lot of like the symphonic

1633
01:35:06,080 --> 01:35:08,840
Speaker 2: Norwegian influence of metal is kind of popping and sort

1634
01:35:08,880 --> 01:35:12,280
Speaker 2: of being reformulated and popping up into very hip young

1635
01:35:12,360 --> 01:35:14,840
Speaker 2: bands now and seeing that stuff react. A lot of

1636
01:35:14,840 --> 01:35:19,720
Speaker 2: the hardcore stuff, the more traditional kind of Northeast hardcore

1637
01:35:20,680 --> 01:35:23,400
Speaker 2: sound is getting repurposed and coming up in these young,

1638
01:35:23,479 --> 01:35:27,880
Speaker 2: exciting bands, and it's really a thrill to see I

1639
01:35:28,000 --> 01:35:33,799
Speaker 2: don't personally spend a lot of time in young heavy

1640
01:35:33,840 --> 01:35:37,759
Speaker 2: metal scenes. I'm fifty two years old, I have a family,

1641
01:35:37,920 --> 01:35:41,000
Speaker 2: I have, and I also and this is out of

1642
01:35:41,000 --> 01:35:45,559
Speaker 2: no disrespect or no disconnection from the music. But I

1643
01:35:45,600 --> 01:35:48,120
Speaker 2: will say that, like I always use this example, if

1644
01:35:48,160 --> 01:35:51,000
Speaker 2: you make your living running a pizza shop, when you

1645
01:35:51,000 --> 01:35:53,439
Speaker 2: have Sunday off, you probably don't order pizza, you know

1646
01:35:53,479 --> 01:35:56,040
Speaker 2: what I mean. So I am so connected to metal

1647
01:35:56,120 --> 01:35:59,120
Speaker 2: via the band and the music that we make that

1648
01:35:59,200 --> 01:36:02,000
Speaker 2: I don't rely pursue a lot of stuff. But I

1649
01:36:02,040 --> 01:36:04,240
Speaker 2: do listen from a distance, and I see a lot

1650
01:36:04,240 --> 01:36:07,519
Speaker 2: of exciting a lot of exciting metal bands happening.

1651
01:36:07,680 --> 01:36:09,720
Speaker 1: Let me put it a different way. I remember when

1652
01:36:09,800 --> 01:36:13,120
Speaker 1: led Zeppelin was considered heavy metal and Black Sabbath was

1653
01:36:13,160 --> 01:36:18,240
Speaker 1: too far out. Today, if you listen to the format

1654
01:36:18,320 --> 01:36:23,640
Speaker 1: active rock, most of the bands I'm generalizing here derivative

1655
01:36:23,720 --> 01:36:27,920
Speaker 1: of Metallica, And although Metallica had its moment with the

1656
01:36:27,920 --> 01:36:32,200
Speaker 1: Black Album nineteen ninety one with Enter Sandman, et cetera,

1657
01:36:32,280 --> 01:36:37,720
Speaker 1: where it matched the mainstream, generally speaking, most of what

1658
01:36:38,800 --> 01:36:42,160
Speaker 1: the bands in the bands in that framework, thrash metal,

1659
01:36:42,160 --> 01:36:47,960
Speaker 1: et cetera has a wide but does not reach everybody.

1660
01:36:48,040 --> 01:36:52,880
Speaker 1: It's sort of its own ghetto. Do you perceive it

1661
01:36:52,960 --> 01:36:55,040
Speaker 1: that way?

1662
01:36:55,520 --> 01:36:58,639
Speaker 2: Do I perceive thrash metal as being a heavy mate.

1663
01:36:58,800 --> 01:37:01,479
Speaker 1: I don't want to make a valet metal different things.

1664
01:37:01,800 --> 01:37:03,200
Speaker 1: What I mean, the way I put it is, to

1665
01:37:03,240 --> 01:37:05,720
Speaker 1: listen today's medical music, you need a handbook. You have

1666
01:37:05,760 --> 01:37:07,680
Speaker 1: to go through the history to get all where it is.

1667
01:37:07,840 --> 01:37:09,920
Speaker 1: And if you haven't followed the scene or you're not

1668
01:37:10,080 --> 01:37:12,400
Speaker 1: natural the scene, people aren't going to hear a song,

1669
01:37:12,640 --> 01:37:15,439
Speaker 1: Oh I like that metal song, It's like they're playing

1670
01:37:15,479 --> 01:37:17,000
Speaker 1: it in another universe.

1671
01:37:18,840 --> 01:37:22,120
Speaker 2: Well, Bob, I think for guys like me and you

1672
01:37:23,720 --> 01:37:29,439
Speaker 2: to to really sort of try and unpack today's metal.

1673
01:37:30,120 --> 01:37:32,800
Speaker 2: I don't think we're the target audience, right.

1674
01:37:33,840 --> 01:37:36,240
Speaker 1: I don't want to make it that. What I really

1675
01:37:36,280 --> 01:37:40,439
Speaker 1: want to say is how large is the metal market

1676
01:37:40,880 --> 01:37:44,719
Speaker 1: in general? Old bands, new bands, they go on the road.

1677
01:37:44,880 --> 01:37:47,959
Speaker 1: Is it growing? Is it decreasing? What's your perception?

1678
01:37:51,040 --> 01:37:54,439
Speaker 2: I think it's really healthy, you know. Would I say,

1679
01:37:54,560 --> 01:37:58,679
Speaker 2: has heavy metal ever been bigger? Probably so? But I think,

1680
01:37:58,800 --> 01:38:01,040
Speaker 2: you know, I just finished the tour Lamb of God

1681
01:38:01,040 --> 01:38:04,960
Speaker 2: finished a tour with Macedon. We had very very well

1682
01:38:04,960 --> 01:38:09,200
Speaker 2: attended shows at the LA Forum at Red Rocks in Colorado.

1683
01:38:10,640 --> 01:38:13,320
Speaker 2: I within the last year year and a half, I

1684
01:38:13,400 --> 01:38:18,519
Speaker 2: played Madison Square Garden, Pantera, and Lamb of God. These

1685
01:38:18,560 --> 01:38:21,640
Speaker 2: are huge historic venues, you know, and the fans are

1686
01:38:21,680 --> 01:38:26,160
Speaker 2: still coming out. Slip Knot is doing huge numbers and

1687
01:38:26,200 --> 01:38:30,720
Speaker 2: they're as heavy as it gets. Really still, metallica is otherworldly.

1688
01:38:30,800 --> 01:38:32,760
Speaker 2: I mean, there's you know, as big as you two.

1689
01:38:34,520 --> 01:38:37,599
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think it's super healthy, man. I think

1690
01:38:37,800 --> 01:38:40,120
Speaker 2: I think it is. I think it's probably easy to

1691
01:38:40,280 --> 01:38:44,040
Speaker 2: miss because I don't think that you hear the same

1692
01:38:44,840 --> 01:38:50,439
Speaker 2: about these events that you might hear about I don't

1693
01:38:50,479 --> 01:38:53,720
Speaker 2: know Morgan Walland, for example, the biggest country star in

1694
01:38:53,760 --> 01:38:57,280
Speaker 2: the world right now, or you know any you know,

1695
01:38:57,720 --> 01:38:59,960
Speaker 2: any of these sort of crossover pop acts or whatever,

1696
01:39:00,080 --> 01:39:03,800
Speaker 2: or they get maybe they get more visible attention. But

1697
01:39:03,880 --> 01:39:07,320
Speaker 2: I think there's huge things going on in metal, and

1698
01:39:07,360 --> 01:39:10,519
Speaker 2: I think that that the fans are there and they're

1699
01:39:10,720 --> 01:39:11,519
Speaker 2: they're showing up.

1700
01:39:12,520 --> 01:39:14,719
Speaker 1: Well, can you tell us about the fans of metal?

1701
01:39:16,120 --> 01:39:20,719
Speaker 2: The fans of metal are lifers. Is it's a lifestyle music.

1702
01:39:22,240 --> 01:39:26,519
Speaker 2: It's it's something that a real metal head was a

1703
01:39:26,560 --> 01:39:29,160
Speaker 2: metal head when they were fifteen, and they're a metal

1704
01:39:29,160 --> 01:39:32,320
Speaker 2: head when they're fifty. We do a thing called Headbanger's Boat.

1705
01:39:32,320 --> 01:39:34,120
Speaker 2: We do it every year. It's a it's a cruise

1706
01:39:34,160 --> 01:39:36,920
Speaker 2: ship and we pack it full of like twenty bands

1707
01:39:36,920 --> 01:39:39,479
Speaker 2: and Lamb of God's the headliner. It sells out every year.

1708
01:39:39,520 --> 01:39:42,880
Speaker 2: We were on our what are we You're I think

1709
01:39:43,400 --> 01:39:49,240
Speaker 2: Herefore we just announced and it's almost sold out, and uh,

1710
01:39:49,280 --> 01:39:52,479
Speaker 2: you know it's it's families. It's I see people in

1711
01:39:52,520 --> 01:39:55,639
Speaker 2: their fifties bringing their teenage kids and making it a vacation,

1712
01:39:56,400 --> 01:40:00,400
Speaker 2: and it's just you realize, I'm reminded in I'm bringing

1713
01:40:00,400 --> 01:40:02,080
Speaker 2: this up because we just did it recently, and I'm

1714
01:40:02,120 --> 01:40:05,960
Speaker 2: just reminded at what a lifestyle this is, and the

1715
01:40:06,040 --> 01:40:08,080
Speaker 2: same way that you know, I told you earlier I'm

1716
01:40:08,080 --> 01:40:11,760
Speaker 2: a dead head, grateful dead is the lifestyle, right, it's not.

1717
01:40:11,960 --> 01:40:14,200
Speaker 2: It is the music, but it's also there's kind of

1718
01:40:14,200 --> 01:40:18,479
Speaker 2: a culture around it, and heavy metal is that way.

1719
01:40:18,760 --> 01:40:21,720
Speaker 2: It's that way the fans recognize each other and there's

1720
01:40:21,720 --> 01:40:27,519
Speaker 2: a familial kind of relationship between metal heads and metal fans,

1721
01:40:27,560 --> 01:40:30,519
Speaker 2: and and you know it's not specific to that. Punk

1722
01:40:30,560 --> 01:40:33,599
Speaker 2: Rocket is very much the same way, but it's just

1723
01:40:33,640 --> 01:40:36,639
Speaker 2: one of those music, one of those genres of music,

1724
01:40:36,680 --> 01:40:41,479
Speaker 2: where certainly there are lots of subgenres, but metal fans

1725
01:40:41,520 --> 01:40:42,759
Speaker 2: feel a kinship to one another.

1726
01:40:43,280 --> 01:40:48,880
Speaker 1: Okay, without mentioning names. Although I know these people historically

1727
01:40:48,880 --> 01:40:52,440
Speaker 1: over decades, they have been Republicans, they have been right wingers.

1728
01:40:52,560 --> 01:40:57,040
Speaker 1: They may not have been advertised. Again, okay, do you

1729
01:40:57,320 --> 01:41:04,600
Speaker 1: find the metal audience more right than left?

1730
01:41:06,000 --> 01:41:11,320
Speaker 2: I don't find it to be well, it probably. I

1731
01:41:11,320 --> 01:41:14,200
Speaker 2: think it depends where you go. Honestly, I think it

1732
01:41:14,280 --> 01:41:17,080
Speaker 2: depends what part of the world you're in, what part

1733
01:41:17,120 --> 01:41:22,400
Speaker 2: of the country you're in. I think more than anything, Bob,

1734
01:41:22,439 --> 01:41:26,240
Speaker 2: I think again, based on our last point, I think

1735
01:41:26,560 --> 01:41:29,160
Speaker 2: metal transcends that. I think for an hour and a

1736
01:41:29,200 --> 01:41:32,240
Speaker 2: half at a Lamb of God show, nobody in that

1737
01:41:32,360 --> 01:41:36,840
Speaker 2: audience that's got their hands in the air gives a

1738
01:41:36,920 --> 01:41:39,639
Speaker 2: hoot about who the guy next to them voted for.

1739
01:41:40,439 --> 01:41:44,360
Speaker 2: I think they're hoping that the band plays their favorite song.

1740
01:41:45,439 --> 01:41:49,120
Speaker 1: Traditionally, heavy metal has been the sound of the alienated.

1741
01:41:49,680 --> 01:41:56,080
Speaker 1: Do you find that, oh?

1742
01:41:56,120 --> 01:42:04,479
Speaker 2: I think that there are I think so. I think

1743
01:42:04,560 --> 01:42:07,479
Speaker 2: it's a bit counter in the sense that it's never

1744
01:42:07,560 --> 01:42:12,760
Speaker 2: been fully popular music. Maybe some versions of it were

1745
01:42:12,800 --> 01:42:17,000
Speaker 2: in the eighties. I think there's an underground spirit to

1746
01:42:17,640 --> 01:42:21,519
Speaker 2: heavy metal, and I think the imagery and the fashion

1747
01:42:21,560 --> 01:42:24,599
Speaker 2: associated with it, I think it all feels a little

1748
01:42:26,800 --> 01:42:29,559
Speaker 2: there's a thread to it that people feel a little counter,

1749
01:42:29,640 --> 01:42:34,320
Speaker 2: a little outside of the mainstream, and that's probably well,

1750
01:42:34,360 --> 01:42:35,280
Speaker 2: that's probably earned.

1751
01:42:36,760 --> 01:42:41,040
Speaker 1: Is inherently there a mode between metal and other formats

1752
01:42:41,560 --> 01:42:45,040
Speaker 1: or if we lived in the days of MTV too,

1753
01:42:45,320 --> 01:42:48,519
Speaker 1: never mind regular MTV when they played videos. Do you

1754
01:42:48,560 --> 01:42:51,680
Speaker 1: believe there are certain metal materials, certain metal songs, that

1755
01:42:51,720 --> 01:42:53,840
Speaker 1: if people just heard them, they would embrace them?

1756
01:42:54,400 --> 01:42:59,960
Speaker 2: Oh? Man, that's a great question. Do I believe that

1757
01:43:00,040 --> 01:43:02,559
Speaker 2: a certain metal songs that if people just heard then

1758
01:43:02,600 --> 01:43:08,559
Speaker 2: they would embrace me at all? Uh? Yeah, yeah, man,

1759
01:43:08,880 --> 01:43:12,920
Speaker 2: I mean Inner Sandman. Have you seen that footage of

1760
01:43:12,960 --> 01:43:15,519
Speaker 2: the Virginia Tech football team coming out to Inner Sandman?

1761
01:43:15,560 --> 01:43:17,679
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm trying to say that happens

1762
01:43:17,680 --> 01:43:20,360
Speaker 1: in a different era in nineteen ninety one.

1763
01:43:20,560 --> 01:43:23,840
Speaker 2: The song did, but the phenomenon around the song is

1764
01:43:24,160 --> 01:43:25,640
Speaker 2: modern contemporary.

1765
01:43:25,920 --> 01:43:29,799
Speaker 1: I guess. Let me be very clear, bands that started

1766
01:43:30,040 --> 01:43:36,760
Speaker 1: post mass exposure this century, are there songs equal to

1767
01:43:36,880 --> 01:43:40,280
Speaker 1: innersian Man that if they got the same exposure as

1768
01:43:40,280 --> 01:43:42,280
Speaker 1: Inner sand Man, they would have the same adoption.

1769
01:43:44,280 --> 01:43:48,000
Speaker 2: Well, inner Sandman is a high as a high benchmark.

1770
01:43:47,479 --> 01:43:49,559
Speaker 1: That that's a very high bar. Doesn't have to that's a.

1771
01:43:49,840 --> 01:43:53,679
Speaker 2: Very high bar, man. I think that might be up

1772
01:43:54,320 --> 01:43:57,800
Speaker 2: you talk about I mean, I'm getting off off the

1773
01:43:57,800 --> 01:44:00,840
Speaker 2: monoail here, but we talk about inner sam Man. You're

1774
01:44:00,880 --> 01:44:05,479
Speaker 2: talking about you're talking about paranoid, you're talking about breaking

1775
01:44:05,520 --> 01:44:07,719
Speaker 2: the law, You're talking about you know what I'm saying.

1776
01:44:07,720 --> 01:44:10,080
Speaker 2: That is one of the you're talking about. Smoke on

1777
01:44:10,120 --> 01:44:14,680
Speaker 2: the Water your Dad is like one a classic, classic,

1778
01:44:15,479 --> 01:44:20,519
Speaker 2: legendary zeitgeist capturing song. I wonder, man, I would love

1779
01:44:20,560 --> 01:44:26,120
Speaker 2: to know if those guys felt that lightning the first

1780
01:44:26,120 --> 01:44:28,320
Speaker 2: time they heard back a mix of that or the

1781
01:44:28,360 --> 01:44:30,760
Speaker 2: basic tracks of that come up, because it's just it's

1782
01:44:30,800 --> 01:44:33,759
Speaker 2: not even my favorite Metallica song, frankly, but you cannot

1783
01:44:33,840 --> 01:44:37,120
Speaker 2: deny and if this is what you're talking about, you

1784
01:44:37,160 --> 01:44:41,200
Speaker 2: can't deny that the universal connection and power to that song, right,

1785
01:44:42,880 --> 01:44:45,760
Speaker 2: I don't know. Is there another song? Are you asking me?

1786
01:44:45,840 --> 01:44:47,320
Speaker 2: Is there a song like that? Sense?

1787
01:44:48,320 --> 01:44:51,080
Speaker 1: Is there a song out there played by metal acts

1788
01:44:51,120 --> 01:44:54,640
Speaker 1: today that if they were exposed they would have the

1789
01:44:54,720 --> 01:44:59,880
Speaker 1: same level of acceptance or is the music so self rent,

1790
01:45:00,160 --> 01:45:03,439
Speaker 1: rential and different than really that's not going to happen.

1791
01:45:03,960 --> 01:45:06,719
Speaker 2: Oh, it'll happen again. It'll happen again.

1792
01:45:07,680 --> 01:45:11,720
Speaker 1: Okay, moving on to what degree? To what degree are

1793
01:45:11,760 --> 01:45:14,439
Speaker 1: you on social media and to what degree do you

1794
01:45:14,560 --> 01:45:18,280
Speaker 1: interact and know your fans.

1795
01:45:19,080 --> 01:45:23,639
Speaker 2: I am on well, I used to be on Twitter

1796
01:45:23,800 --> 01:45:25,320
Speaker 2: some years ago. I was on there quite a bit,

1797
01:45:25,360 --> 01:45:29,360
Speaker 2: and I just, man, it just really was. It was

1798
01:45:29,400 --> 01:45:32,000
Speaker 2: a strange addiction because I would catch myself on there

1799
01:45:32,120 --> 01:45:38,639
Speaker 2: arguing with people. So I'm not on that platform it's

1800
01:45:38,680 --> 01:45:40,680
Speaker 2: called X Now, I'm not on that platform here as much.

1801
01:45:40,680 --> 01:45:43,120
Speaker 2: I'm not on Facebook hardly at all. I do post

1802
01:45:43,560 --> 01:45:47,920
Speaker 2: pretty regularly on Instagram, and most of my Instagram has

1803
01:45:48,000 --> 01:45:51,640
Speaker 2: to do with vintage guitars and gear. I'm kind of

1804
01:45:51,640 --> 01:45:54,880
Speaker 2: a gear nerd, and we also do a little bit

1805
01:45:54,920 --> 01:45:58,000
Speaker 2: of homesteading and kind of farm chicken kind of stuff

1806
01:45:58,040 --> 01:46:03,400
Speaker 2: around here. So my Instagram is largely just scenes from

1807
01:46:03,400 --> 01:46:08,280
Speaker 2: my home and and then kind of gear nerding. But

1808
01:46:08,320 --> 01:46:11,880
Speaker 2: I'm on it quite a bit. My platform is it's

1809
01:46:11,960 --> 01:46:14,479
Speaker 2: I'd say it's reason reasonably known. It's I think my

1810
01:46:14,520 --> 01:46:16,360
Speaker 2: Instagram accounts about a hundred thousand people.

1811
01:46:17,240 --> 01:46:22,040
Speaker 1: So you know, bands have arcs, they tend not to

1812
01:46:22,080 --> 01:46:26,559
Speaker 1: have the same level of success consistently. To what degree

1813
01:46:26,560 --> 01:46:29,920
Speaker 1: are you concerned with maintaining audience and what is the

1814
01:46:29,960 --> 01:46:32,320
Speaker 1: status of Lamb of God today.

1815
01:46:35,840 --> 01:46:41,040
Speaker 2: I'm not concerned with maintaining audience. I'm grateful that we do.

1816
01:46:42,000 --> 01:46:46,599
Speaker 2: I think we have flirted at times over the course

1817
01:46:46,640 --> 01:46:51,280
Speaker 2: of our career, flirted with just dipped our toe in

1818
01:46:51,320 --> 01:46:54,360
Speaker 2: the water of like starting to make decisions based on

1819
01:46:54,439 --> 01:46:57,160
Speaker 2: what we think our fans might want to hear, or

1820
01:46:57,160 --> 01:46:59,600
Speaker 2: what they might or maybe sometimes even doing something that

1821
01:47:00,120 --> 01:47:02,120
Speaker 2: we think they expect. One thing, so let's do this

1822
01:47:02,360 --> 01:47:06,920
Speaker 2: and and and that starts feeling really unnatural, and we

1823
01:47:06,960 --> 01:47:12,080
Speaker 2: really try to avoid that, so I don't we don't

1824
01:47:12,240 --> 01:47:15,799
Speaker 2: make choices in the band with the fans in mind.

1825
01:47:16,000 --> 01:47:19,120
Speaker 2: That sounds off putting, but it's I think it's really

1826
01:47:19,160 --> 01:47:23,240
Speaker 2: in an effort to stay pure and stay generine, stay genuine.

1827
01:47:23,640 --> 01:47:28,160
Speaker 2: But I do. Uh. I'm astounded again. I talked about

1828
01:47:28,160 --> 01:47:30,000
Speaker 2: this story we just did. I see I see parents

1829
01:47:30,080 --> 01:47:32,880
Speaker 2: bringing their children, and I see fourteen year old kids

1830
01:47:32,920 --> 01:47:36,880
Speaker 2: with Lamba gotchers On singing songs that we recorded, you know,

1831
01:47:36,920 --> 01:47:41,160
Speaker 2: when they were two years old, and I'm just nothing.

1832
01:47:41,280 --> 01:47:43,919
Speaker 2: It's just the greatest, you know, besides like my children

1833
01:47:43,960 --> 01:47:46,400
Speaker 2: and my family. It's the greatest joy in my life

1834
01:47:46,479 --> 01:47:52,040
Speaker 2: to see fathers making connections with their kids on the

1835
01:47:52,040 --> 01:47:54,439
Speaker 2: front barricade of a LAMB show and just the joy

1836
01:47:54,479 --> 01:47:56,120
Speaker 2: in their eyes when the lights come up, and seeing

1837
01:47:56,160 --> 01:48:00,400
Speaker 2: them scream the songs together. And I'm just astounded at that.

1838
01:48:00,479 --> 01:48:03,240
Speaker 2: I get to be a part of that small little system,

1839
01:48:03,280 --> 01:48:07,000
Speaker 2: that circle that happens there, and so I know that

1840
01:48:07,080 --> 01:48:09,840
Speaker 2: we're creating new fans, or that new fans are being created,

1841
01:48:10,400 --> 01:48:12,519
Speaker 2: and I know that it's so much bigger than me

1842
01:48:12,800 --> 01:48:15,679
Speaker 2: or even the five of us, or even that song

1843
01:48:15,840 --> 01:48:18,920
Speaker 2: or whatever. It's just such a it's such as really

1844
01:48:19,040 --> 01:48:21,080
Speaker 2: I'm kind of hippy man, but it really is just

1845
01:48:21,120 --> 01:48:24,400
Speaker 2: sort of the supernatural, kind of spiritual phenomenon that music

1846
01:48:24,520 --> 01:48:27,720
Speaker 2: has that connection between people. And so I get to

1847
01:48:27,760 --> 01:48:29,320
Speaker 2: see that, I get to witness it, I get to

1848
01:48:29,360 --> 01:48:31,360
Speaker 2: be a part of it, and I'm just thrilled by it.

1849
01:48:32,360 --> 01:48:36,719
Speaker 1: Okay, in the book, you talk about yourself and another

1850
01:48:36,800 --> 01:48:41,560
Speaker 1: band member not going on certain tours for certain reasons,

1851
01:48:41,680 --> 01:48:47,400
Speaker 1: usually good reasons. Frequently that ends a band. How does

1852
01:48:47,439 --> 01:48:49,439
Speaker 1: everybody feel when you say, well, you know, I'm gonna

1853
01:48:49,439 --> 01:48:51,760
Speaker 1: sit this one out, or we gotta sit that person down,

1854
01:48:51,840 --> 01:48:52,840
Speaker 1: or they're gonna come back.

1855
01:48:54,800 --> 01:48:57,920
Speaker 2: I just don't know why it should end a band,

1856
01:48:58,160 --> 01:49:01,599
Speaker 2: or it should end someone's participation in a band. But

1857
01:49:01,640 --> 01:49:03,800
Speaker 2: maybe I take it for granted that the level of

1858
01:49:03,840 --> 01:49:06,599
Speaker 2: support and the level of brotherhood that we feel amongst

1859
01:49:06,600 --> 01:49:09,400
Speaker 2: ourselves is that sometimes your life is more important than

1860
01:49:09,439 --> 01:49:11,880
Speaker 2: your life as a member of Lamb of God, and

1861
01:49:11,920 --> 01:49:14,519
Speaker 2: sometimes you have something going on that you need to

1862
01:49:14,520 --> 01:49:20,000
Speaker 2: be available for that prohibits you from taking your seat

1863
01:49:20,280 --> 01:49:23,000
Speaker 2: in whatever this thing we have is going on, and

1864
01:49:23,040 --> 01:49:25,200
Speaker 2: we find ways around that, We find ways to love

1865
01:49:25,200 --> 01:49:26,040
Speaker 2: and support each other.

1866
01:49:27,680 --> 01:49:31,680
Speaker 1: At this point in time, have you been financially successful

1867
01:49:31,840 --> 01:49:34,400
Speaker 1: enough with the Lamb of God that if you wanted

1868
01:49:34,400 --> 01:49:36,280
Speaker 1: to call it a day today, that you have enough

1869
01:49:36,320 --> 01:49:37,400
Speaker 1: money to get to the end.

1870
01:49:40,920 --> 01:49:43,559
Speaker 2: I think so. I think I would probably have to

1871
01:49:45,040 --> 01:49:51,160
Speaker 2: adjust some things about my lifestyle, but I could probably

1872
01:49:51,400 --> 01:49:52,479
Speaker 2: figure that out if I had to.

1873
01:49:54,040 --> 01:49:57,280
Speaker 1: Okay, a lot of bands, as time goes on, they

1874
01:49:57,360 --> 01:49:59,519
Speaker 1: work less. In the book you're talking about when the

1875
01:49:59,520 --> 01:50:02,559
Speaker 1: band is really starting to break, as Lamb of God

1876
01:50:02,600 --> 01:50:05,200
Speaker 1: as supposed to burn the priest. You're work in morning, noon,

1877
01:50:05,240 --> 01:50:09,160
Speaker 1: and night, what's the philosophy today in terms of how

1878
01:50:09,240 --> 01:50:14,320
Speaker 1: much you work hiatus, solo albums, solo tours.

1879
01:50:15,160 --> 01:50:18,880
Speaker 2: So with with Lamb of God, it's a collective and

1880
01:50:19,160 --> 01:50:22,320
Speaker 2: it's it's you know, everyone has a voice, and we

1881
01:50:22,400 --> 01:50:25,800
Speaker 2: talk about as tour opportunities get presented to us, we

1882
01:50:25,840 --> 01:50:29,000
Speaker 2: talk about how long we've been on a cycle or

1883
01:50:29,160 --> 01:50:31,720
Speaker 2: how many times we've played in that you know, that

1884
01:50:32,479 --> 01:50:35,320
Speaker 2: continent or that territory, and is it do we want

1885
01:50:35,320 --> 01:50:37,599
Speaker 2: to go back again? And do we want to take

1886
01:50:37,600 --> 01:50:40,160
Speaker 2: a break, how we're feeling creatively, do we feel like

1887
01:50:40,200 --> 01:50:41,840
Speaker 2: we have material piling up? Is it time for us

1888
01:50:41,880 --> 01:50:43,880
Speaker 2: to start thinking about compiling new material and getting a

1889
01:50:43,880 --> 01:50:46,679
Speaker 2: record together. So those are all things we could just consider.

1890
01:50:46,840 --> 01:50:51,200
Speaker 2: And tours are usually these days, you know, discussed and

1891
01:50:51,760 --> 01:50:54,479
Speaker 2: starting to get planning a year out. So I always

1892
01:50:54,560 --> 01:50:57,720
Speaker 2: know almost at any given time with LAMB what my

1893
01:50:57,960 --> 01:51:00,679
Speaker 2: next eighteen months is going to look like. And that's

1894
01:51:00,720 --> 01:51:03,720
Speaker 2: a conversation we have internally. We have great management, we

1895
01:51:03,760 --> 01:51:06,679
Speaker 2: have a great booking agent, great team around all that stuff.

1896
01:51:06,720 --> 01:51:09,759
Speaker 2: So those are things conversations that are always happening about

1897
01:51:10,080 --> 01:51:14,800
Speaker 2: you know, you know, I have discussions today about what

1898
01:51:14,840 --> 01:51:17,120
Speaker 2: we might be doing or may or may not be

1899
01:51:17,120 --> 01:51:19,439
Speaker 2: doing in twenty twenty six, right, So we kind of

1900
01:51:19,479 --> 01:51:21,679
Speaker 2: are always ahead of ourselves and that look forward thinking

1901
01:51:21,720 --> 01:51:26,040
Speaker 2: that way, and the decisions are made collectively as time

1902
01:51:26,080 --> 01:51:28,840
Speaker 2: goes on. Yeah, I am interested in you know, there

1903
01:51:28,880 --> 01:51:30,600
Speaker 2: were in those early days. I wanted to be on

1904
01:51:30,600 --> 01:51:32,200
Speaker 2: the road when we first got one, and I wanted

1905
01:51:32,240 --> 01:51:35,799
Speaker 2: to be on the road all the time, just because

1906
01:51:36,000 --> 01:51:38,559
Speaker 2: my mindset was different. And that was twenty years ago

1907
01:51:38,600 --> 01:51:41,680
Speaker 2: and I was a much younger man, and my responsibilities

1908
01:51:41,720 --> 01:51:44,960
Speaker 2: and my whole lifestyle was completely different. And these days

1909
01:51:44,960 --> 01:51:47,400
Speaker 2: it's it's you know, it's different. I have children, I

1910
01:51:47,760 --> 01:51:50,640
Speaker 2: have a young daughter, I have a teenage daughter, I

1911
01:51:50,680 --> 01:51:53,000
Speaker 2: have a wife, I have a home, I have all

1912
01:51:53,000 --> 01:51:54,840
Speaker 2: these relationships and all these things that are that are

1913
01:51:54,880 --> 01:51:58,400
Speaker 2: high priority to me. The band is as well, So

1914
01:51:58,439 --> 01:52:01,879
Speaker 2: it's about fine. I think, you know, home life, homework

1915
01:52:01,960 --> 01:52:05,320
Speaker 2: balance is something that everyone probably struggles with most people,

1916
01:52:06,160 --> 01:52:08,920
Speaker 2: and that's no different for us with solo stuff. As

1917
01:52:08,920 --> 01:52:12,040
Speaker 2: you brought up. That is something that I just went

1918
01:52:12,160 --> 01:52:15,559
Speaker 2: on this complete tear, and I think some of it

1919
01:52:15,600 --> 01:52:17,960
Speaker 2: has to do with sobriety. I wrote the book and

1920
01:52:18,000 --> 01:52:20,680
Speaker 2: I've worked on a bunch of solo music recently, and

1921
01:52:20,800 --> 01:52:23,960
Speaker 2: it's just kind of like just purging all this creative

1922
01:52:24,080 --> 01:52:28,040
Speaker 2: energy out and it's been super productive and super fun,

1923
01:52:28,080 --> 01:52:31,760
Speaker 2: and I'm ready to let all that stuff get out

1924
01:52:31,800 --> 01:52:36,240
Speaker 2: into the world and happen, and you know, just enjoy

1925
01:52:36,280 --> 01:52:38,400
Speaker 2: the fact that I was able to be a part

1926
01:52:38,479 --> 01:52:40,880
Speaker 2: and be in some of those rooms.

1927
01:52:41,200 --> 01:52:44,400
Speaker 1: In a man that's on the road so much. What's

1928
01:52:44,439 --> 01:52:47,280
Speaker 1: the key to maintaining your relationship.

1929
01:52:49,200 --> 01:52:55,360
Speaker 2: Well, to be available and to stay engaged. And for me,

1930
01:52:55,920 --> 01:52:57,680
Speaker 2: the key to all of it is to have an

1931
01:52:57,720 --> 01:53:03,639
Speaker 2: identity and maintain an identity and maintain a life that

1932
01:53:03,760 --> 01:53:08,960
Speaker 2: exists outside of the band, both you know, in real

1933
01:53:09,040 --> 01:53:16,320
Speaker 2: terms and practical terms and also mentally. I love my

1934
01:53:16,479 --> 01:53:18,320
Speaker 2: role in Lamb of God. I love Lamb of God.

1935
01:53:18,360 --> 01:53:21,320
Speaker 2: I love everything that we get to do, and I

1936
01:53:21,439 --> 01:53:26,480
Speaker 2: exist wholly and completely outside of it as well. And

1937
01:53:26,560 --> 01:53:29,960
Speaker 2: for me, with my kids and my wife and my

1938
01:53:30,080 --> 01:53:35,760
Speaker 2: home life, Lamb of God doesn't necessarily come up all

1939
01:53:35,800 --> 01:53:36,840
Speaker 2: the time, you know.

1940
01:53:37,560 --> 01:53:41,719
Speaker 1: So you've had incredible success. You've gone on the record

1941
01:53:42,439 --> 01:53:45,559
Speaker 1: that you didn't anticipate that this music would have as

1942
01:53:45,600 --> 01:53:49,600
Speaker 1: wide of acceptance as it does. To the degree you

1943
01:53:49,720 --> 01:53:53,040
Speaker 1: look forward, what's the dream going forward.

1944
01:53:56,760 --> 01:54:02,640
Speaker 2: Well, I appreciate that question, and I think for me

1945
01:54:04,320 --> 01:54:09,040
Speaker 2: the dream is to just continue creating music that I

1946
01:54:09,160 --> 01:54:14,240
Speaker 2: enjoy making and to be able to help maybe help

1947
01:54:14,320 --> 01:54:17,120
Speaker 2: other people write songs. I've had the chance to work

1948
01:54:17,200 --> 01:54:21,400
Speaker 2: with other artists and putting their thing together, younger artists

1949
01:54:21,439 --> 01:54:25,240
Speaker 2: and people kind of up and coming trying to create

1950
01:54:25,520 --> 01:54:29,600
Speaker 2: their own career, and I really really love being a

1951
01:54:29,600 --> 01:54:33,520
Speaker 2: part of that stuff. And I love being, you know,

1952
01:54:34,080 --> 01:54:38,360
Speaker 2: the elder experienced guy in the room. That's a lot

1953
01:54:38,360 --> 01:54:43,919
Speaker 2: of fun. And I love creating, writing and producing with artists.

1954
01:54:44,120 --> 01:54:46,440
Speaker 2: When it's not my thing that I'm going to perform,

1955
01:54:46,720 --> 01:54:48,720
Speaker 2: that's really exciting to me. And when I get a

1956
01:54:48,800 --> 01:54:51,560
Speaker 2: chance to do that stuff, I always find it very

1957
01:54:51,600 --> 01:54:55,760
Speaker 2: fulfilling and it's something I would love to continue doing.

1958
01:54:57,320 --> 01:55:00,200
Speaker 1: Okay, Mark, I think we've covered it for now. For

1959
01:55:00,280 --> 01:55:04,200
Speaker 1: those of you who want more detailed, much more detail,

1960
01:55:04,400 --> 01:55:09,680
Speaker 1: you can get Mark's book, Desolation really holds no punches.

1961
01:55:09,920 --> 01:55:11,720
Speaker 1: I want to thank you for taking this time with

1962
01:55:11,800 --> 01:55:12,440
Speaker 1: my audience.

1963
01:55:13,240 --> 01:55:15,440
Speaker 2: I appreciate you, Bob, thanks for the opportunity. I really

1964
01:55:15,480 --> 01:55:16,440
Speaker 2: invite before.

1965
01:55:17,400 --> 01:55:19,960
Speaker 1: Until next time. This is Bob left Stets