1 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Drill. I'm Amy Westervelt. Today we're going 2 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 1: to hear from a reporter I had on during our 3 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: last season, Miranda Green from Floodlight, about a news story 4 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:25,799 Speaker 1: she's got out right now once again about utilities and 5 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: air pollution and the push to maintain dominance for natural gas. 6 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: Miranda uncovered recently that a Los Angeles area air board 7 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:40,199 Speaker 1: has spent millions to subsidize and promote gas, despite the 8 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: fact that as an air board it's tasked with cleaning 9 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 1: up air pollution, which gas definitely contributes to. There's a 10 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:52,239 Speaker 1: utility angle here too, and lots of interesting details that 11 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: Miranda will walk us through. That conversation is coming up 12 00:00:56,480 --> 00:01:11,320 Speaker 1: right after this quick break. Tell me about how this 13 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: story came about. 14 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 2: Well, Los Angeles, which happens to be where I live, 15 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 2: is a community that is known for a lot of 16 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 2: great things. You know, we have wonderful beaches, we have 17 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 2: great sunshine. We're the Golden State. But when you start 18 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 2: looking into the data and the details about the air 19 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 2: pollution in you actually realize that there's some things that 20 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 2: are really not that golden about it. LA actually has 21 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 2: the worst smog pollution of any city in the United States, 22 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 2: which means that the air pollution around us in some 23 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 2: days you can't see the mountains that you're next to, 24 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 2: and also means that the air that you're breathing when 25 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 2: you're out on those runs on the beaches is not 26 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 2: very good for you. And it's something that local regulators 27 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 2: and officials have been aware of. There have been decades 28 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 2: where it's gotten better, in decades where it's gotten worse, 29 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 2: but it has still remains a major issue in the state, 30 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 2: despite kind of the messaging that we hear that California 31 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 2: is kind of on this environmental kick and it's kind 32 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:14,920 Speaker 2: of the leader. And so I wanted to kind of 33 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 2: look into that disparity of how California can both claim 34 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 2: to be kind of at the cutting edge of environmentalism 35 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 2: but still have such bad pollution that communities that are 36 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 2: around some of these areas where the pollution is coming from, 37 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 2: around the ports of Los Angeles, around where some of 38 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 2: this oil and gas drilling is still occurring, how that 39 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 2: is still happening, and what's being done about it. 40 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:40,519 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I don't want to give too much away 41 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 3: because I want you to tell us more about it, 42 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 3: but it sounds like a lot of the ways that 43 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 3: some of the local and state governments are trying to 44 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 3: get at this are not necessarily solving the problem. 45 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 4: Yes, and that is, you know, kind of been the 46 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 4: issue here. 47 00:02:56,080 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 2: There's always two sides to every debate, and despite California 48 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 2: being a largely blue state, there's still a lot of 49 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 2: arguments and disjointed feelings about how to tackle this issue. 50 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 2: One of the biggest issues here is that La County 51 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 2: is one of two airgistricts in the US, both of 52 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 2: them actually in California, that have never met federal OZEM 53 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,639 Speaker 2: standards that were established back in nineteen ninety seven. 54 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 3: Wow. 55 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 2: So they have never been able to just meet even 56 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 2: basic levels of standards for osen regulations. 57 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:28,519 Speaker 4: That's staggering. 58 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 1: Wow. 59 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 2: And one of the biggest issues is transportation. It's one 60 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 2: of the biggest sources of pollution and as you can imagine, 61 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 2: knowing Los Angeles, one of the biggest hurdles. And so 62 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 2: the argument and kind of the debate here has been 63 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 2: around what do we do about the vehicles that both 64 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 2: people are driving, but also the big rig trucks, the 65 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 2: heavy duty trucks that are responsible. 66 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 4: You're bringing all. 67 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 2: The things from the port exactly, and so that has 68 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 2: kind of been an ongoing debate for decades. I'm sure 69 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 2: a lot of us remember kind of the debates that 70 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 2: were happening underneath the bomb And administration when we had 71 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 2: with arguments that climate change had to be kind of 72 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 2: a there had to be a transition fuel, and this 73 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 2: idea that natural gas could be it. We can move 74 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 2: away from dirty coal, we can move away from dirty diesel, 75 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 2: and we could move towards a cleaner burning natural gas. 76 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 2: That is still a concept that I think is still 77 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 2: heavily being held onto here in California, despite the fact 78 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 2: that there's been obviously huge leaps and bounds in electric 79 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:27,719 Speaker 2: vehicles and that there have been calls from a lot 80 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 2: of people in these communities that there needs to be 81 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,840 Speaker 2: more investment in that area. And that's kind of where 82 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 2: my reporting starts. 83 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is interesting because it definitely dovetails with 84 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 3: the reporting you talked to me about a few months ago, 85 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 3: where there was this effort at the ports of Los 86 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 3: Angeles and Long Beach to deal with this problem and 87 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 3: this decision right about are we going to go with 88 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 3: natural gas powered trucks or electric? But this seems like 89 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 3: an issue throughout the region that entities are grappling with. 90 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 3: So what did you find out about how folks are 91 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 3: looking at this issue. 92 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, so one of the things that I realized and 93 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:10,479 Speaker 2: I wanted to look at again is where is the 94 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 2: state investing in terms of this source, in terms of 95 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 2: how to fix this pollution issue. And you know, California 96 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,039 Speaker 2: is a huge state. It has its Air and Resources Board, 97 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 2: which is kind of an overarching agency, and within that agency, 98 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 2: underneath it has a lot of local air boards that 99 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 2: are county wide, and California runs what are known as 100 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 2: incentive programs, so it takes federal and state dollars. Some 101 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 2: of the funds are appropriated through the legislature. Some of 102 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 2: the funds come from when you go to get your ideas, 103 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 2: you have to pay a fee, and those fees go 104 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:47,359 Speaker 2: towards these incentive programs, which are largely meant to help 105 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 2: people invest in cleaner vehicles. And I dove into the 106 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 2: details there to see, Okay, so what are these cleaner 107 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 2: vehicles that are being invested in? And I found that 108 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 2: by and large, the majority of the spending was still 109 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 2: going towards gas and so, you know, the points of 110 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 2: these programs are to kind of incentivize both local businesses 111 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 2: and larger businesses to not just buy the cheapest option 112 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 2: when it comes to transportation, so ATVs as well as 113 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,160 Speaker 2: cargo trucks as well as big rig trucks to kind 114 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 2: of invest in not the cheapest but the cleanest, and 115 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 2: so they would give them money to then buy cleaner options. 116 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 2: And while obviously electric vehicles are an option here, the 117 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 2: majority of that is still going towards, you know, helping 118 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,919 Speaker 2: them buy either diesel or natural gas vehicles instead. 119 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 3: Can you explain a little bit what are the companies 120 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 3: that these agencies are overseeing and what are the decisions 121 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 3: that those companies are having to make here in terms 122 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 3: of vehicle choices. 123 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, I can walk you through it. 124 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 2: So the South Coast Air Quality Management District, which oversees, 125 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 2: you know, most of Los Angeles County and neighboring counties, 126 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:01,919 Speaker 2: it basically is we'reonsible for doling out some of this 127 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 2: grant funding that is determined on the state level, So 128 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 2: they get hundreds of thousands of dollars annually that it 129 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 2: can use, and local businesses can apply, so both you know, 130 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 2: local individuals who run small businesses or big companies can 131 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 2: apply for some of this funding, and the local air 132 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 2: quality agency essentially gets to decide, you know, green light 133 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 2: whether they're going to give it to them or not. 134 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 2: And they have people figuring out where to give that 135 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 2: money to where they should be investing that money. And 136 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 2: you know, that money goes towards anything from replacing older 137 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 2: diesel vehicles to newer versions, or replacing them with natural 138 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 2: gas vehicles, or replacing them with electric vehicles. And that 139 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 2: can include ships as well. That could include trucks, that 140 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 2: can include investing in natural gas trams on here for Disneyland. 141 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 2: So it kind of runs the gamut, but at the 142 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 2: end of the day, the agency is the one responsible 143 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 2: for determining who gets that fund. 144 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 3: That's super interesting. What did you find out about in 145 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 3: terms of lobbying these folks on gas? How has the 146 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 3: gas industry or local utilities or local companies that sell 147 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 3: gas for vehicles, have they been trying to kind of 148 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 3: sway those decisions in the favor of gas. 149 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 2: You know, what I found within the course of this 150 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 2: reporting is that there's a lot of really questionable and 151 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:33,239 Speaker 2: kind of circumspect crossover between the agency and the companies 152 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 2: that it's overseeing. 153 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:35,599 Speaker 4: And supposed to be regulating. 154 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 2: One of the kind of interesting parts about this in 155 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 2: this reporting I found is that there were hundreds of 156 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 2: thousands of dollars of the last couple of years invested 157 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 2: in a pro gas website. Its entire purpose is to 158 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,319 Speaker 2: kind of spread the benefits of what natural gas is. 159 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,559 Speaker 2: So this is the South Coast Air Quality Management District, 160 00:08:55,559 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 2: which oversees Los Angeles, San Bernardino Counties, Orange Counties, Rivers. 161 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 2: This group is supposed to be regulating air pollution. And again, 162 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,199 Speaker 2: this is the community that has never met federal ozone standards, 163 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:11,319 Speaker 2: has for years, since two thousand and two, been investing 164 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:16,079 Speaker 2: in this pro gas website called California Natural Gas Vehicle Partnership, 165 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 2: and it has been you know, spending money on dues 166 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 2: for this website and helping them run basically community outreach 167 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 2: and marketing. And some of those other groups that are 168 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 2: invested in this website are you know, some of the 169 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 2: oil and gas companies that are responsible for the emissions 170 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 2: that are being regulated. So I'm talking so cal Gas here, 171 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 2: and so that was a pretty eye opening thing for 172 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 2: me to see. 173 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, totally. You know what this reminds me of too, 174 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 3: is of energy efficiency programs, where so cal Gas was 175 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 3: like getting money from the agency to sell its customers 176 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 3: on energy efficiency but using it to do the Yep. 177 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, can you talk a. 178 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 3: Little bit about because I know the argu is always that, well, 179 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 3: natural gas does burn cleaner than diesel. That's true, Sure, 180 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 3: but how much are we talking here and how much 181 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 3: more benefit would electric vehicles give? 182 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, so, there is a legitimate argument to 183 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:19,439 Speaker 2: be made about the fact that natural gas does burn 184 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 2: cleaner than diesel. But the argument that I think most 185 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 2: people are starting to face at this point is why 186 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 2: invest in natural gas when you have the option of 187 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 2: a much cleaner investment, which is electric vehicles. And electric vehicles, 188 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 2: you know, obviously run off of whatever that electricity is 189 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 2: that they're plugged into, so it's a mix. It does 190 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 2: include gas, it could include some coal, But as the 191 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 2: electric grid gets cleaner, that energy is going to be cleaner, 192 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 2: So those vehicles are going to be running off of 193 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 2: a much cleaner mix of energy than a natural gas 194 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 2: vehicle on its own. The kind of criticism argument against 195 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 2: that is that, you know, electric vehicles are expensive, they're 196 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 2: newer technology. It takes longer for them to because it's 197 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 2: about demand, and so they're not as readily available. So, 198 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 2: you know, some of the members of the Air Quality Board, 199 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 2: you know, continue to say natural gas has to be 200 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 2: part of the solution because it's cheaper. You know, more 201 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 2: of the incentive money can be spent on buying more 202 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 2: natural vehicle trucks than electric vehicle trucks. But if you 203 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 2: look at the other side of the coin, which is 204 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 2: what the critics are saying, is these incentive programs are 205 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 2: essentially created to incentivize people to buy something they wouldn't 206 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 2: buy on their own, to invest in a technology that 207 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 2: is better than the status quo because the community is 208 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 2: so out of attainment when it comes to ozone levels. 209 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,559 Speaker 2: And so if we're looking at an area that is 210 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 2: already failing to meet federal ozone standards, community members that 211 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 2: are having trouble breathing, that are having issues with asthma, 212 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 2: the question is why is there still an in something 213 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 2: like natural gas technology and new or diesel technology one 214 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 2: there's a better, cleaner solution, even if that means there 215 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 2: might be fewer of them, even that that means it 216 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 2: might take more time. This idea of their needing to 217 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 2: be this kind of transition. You know, technology in between 218 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 2: just slows down the path towards all clean vehicles in 219 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 2: the future. 220 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 3: To be clear, when we're talking about air pollution and 221 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 3: health impacts, we're talking about you know, asthma and respiratory issues, 222 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 3: but we're also talking about mortality. There's a pretty direct line, 223 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 3: and you know about thirty years worth of peer reviewed 224 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 3: research now that connects premature death with exposure to particular matter, 225 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 3: which is what people are being exposed to here. So 226 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 3: it's not just like, oh, well, you know people are 227 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 3: coughing a little bit more. There's real serious impacts here. 228 00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:59,959 Speaker 3: I think kids in utero who are exposed to particular 229 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,119 Speaker 3: that matter have quite a few respiratory and even cardiac 230 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 3: issues as well. So you know, we've known this for 231 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 3: a long time. And yes, maybe ten years ago, you know, 232 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 3: electric vehicles were not so readily available, But it does 233 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 3: seem like it's harder to make that argument now. So 234 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 3: tell me about the California Natural Gas Vehicle partnership because 235 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 3: this jumped out at me in your story. What is 236 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 3: it and what do they do and how does it 237 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:32,959 Speaker 3: play a role in all of this? 238 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, the California Natural Gas Vehicle Partnership, 239 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,680 Speaker 2: which is the kind of progas website and partnership that 240 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 2: South Coast has been kind of investing in, was actually 241 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 2: started in two thousand and two by South Coast then 242 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 2: chaired Normal Glover. She was finishing up her tenure at 243 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 2: the Air Agency and created this and then went on 244 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 2: to lead it as their chairman, which is kind of 245 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 2: an interesting, you know, career path. And then two years 246 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:04,080 Speaker 2: after that she started her own related consulting firm which 247 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 2: was basically to kind of talk about the merits of 248 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 2: gas as a clean energy alternative. And this was back 249 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 2: in two thousand and two. You know, since then, perspectives 250 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 2: on gas have obviously changed, but the Air Quality Board 251 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 2: South Coast has still continued to invest. 252 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 4: So South Coast has been a do paying member. 253 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 2: It has been paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to 254 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 2: this website, and in part that money has gone towards 255 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 2: hiring a consulting firm which runs the website, which sends 256 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 2: out marketing which you know, puts together its meetings, and 257 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 2: this partnership has a lot of other clients. A lot 258 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 2: of those other clients include clean energy fuels and sokel 259 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 2: Gas and the utility, PG and E. And you know, 260 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 2: these companies have obviously a vested interest in figuring out 261 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 2: what the future of gas is in California, and so 262 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 2: they are also due paying partners. There's you know, the 263 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 2: connections here and the overlap are just rather striking. And 264 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 2: what's kind of interesting here is that as I was 265 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 2: doing this reporting in February, South Coast just kind of 266 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 2: out of the blue moved to distance itself from the partnership. 267 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 2: The board voted to turn the partnership into a nonprofit 268 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 2: and push it out of being anything within its purview, 269 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 2: transfer all of the remaining money over to this kind 270 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 2: of new nonprofit model. And I asked them, I said, 271 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 2: you know what prompted this, and essentially I was just 272 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 2: told that it was to relieve the agency and its 273 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 2: staff of the financial and administrative responsibilities related to the partnership. 274 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: Wow. 275 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 2: But South Coast is still going to remain a do 276 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 2: paying member, so it'll still be connected. 277 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 3: Wow. I mean that just seems like such a clear 278 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 3: conflict of interest there. 279 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 2: You know, I had this pointed out to me by 280 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 2: a couple people, and I definitely raised my eyebrows looking 281 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 2: at it. I think that the fact that the agency 282 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 2: has decided to itself from the website is indicative that 283 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 2: they probably have had some people raise concerns about it too. 284 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 2: But there are other things that I saw looking at 285 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 2: the kind of looking at the budget, looking at what 286 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 2: the air Board has been investing in over the last 287 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 2: you know, decade. 288 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:18,479 Speaker 4: Has been Those are things that are still continuing. 289 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 2: What's interesting is that the air Board also has directly 290 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 2: been paying the same consulting group to let South Coast 291 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 2: be co sponsor and sponsor of different symposiums. So, you know, 292 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 2: some of the money that South Coast has paid to 293 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 2: this consulting firm includes eighty thousand dollars to co sponsor 294 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 2: the twenty twenty and twenty twenty one Renewable Gas three 295 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 2: sixty symposium and host a webinar in conjunction with it. 296 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 3: Even just to be that sort of publicly supportive of 297 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 3: renewable gas is an interesting choice, I would. 298 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 4: Say, yeah. 299 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 2: And you know, I asked them, I said, have you know, 300 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 2: for example, with the website, you know, do you invest 301 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 2: in an electric vehicle website of similar you know origin, 302 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 2: doing similar messaging And the answer was no. So, you know, 303 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:10,959 Speaker 2: these have just been interesting choices made. Looking at this 304 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 2: incentive money being used towards all these different programs, it 305 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 2: gets to really the heart of the debate that I 306 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 2: think the whole country is facing. But you know, still 307 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 2: California is facing two, which is is it time to 308 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 2: step away from gas? 309 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 1: Right? 310 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:27,120 Speaker 3: If it's a bridge, at what point do we get 311 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 3: off that bridge? 312 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 4: Exactly? 313 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 2: When are we ready to jump off that bridge? But 314 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 2: looking at these numbers, we're not. You know, California is 315 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,879 Speaker 2: not very close one of the programs that receives a 316 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:41,359 Speaker 2: lot of this money. One of the staffers mentioned in 317 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 2: a board meeting earlier this year that just seventeen percent 318 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 2: of the total one hundred and forty one million dollars 319 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 2: in grants that the board approved just for this year 320 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 2: for twenty twenty two, only seventeen percent are going towards 321 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 2: purchasing true zero technologies. 322 00:17:55,880 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 3: Wow. And I know that the argument continues to be, oh, 323 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 3: all electric isn't available yet. Did you find that to 324 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:07,159 Speaker 3: be true or no? 325 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:07,880 Speaker 4: Not at all? 326 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 2: You know, that's a that's an argument that you hear 327 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 2: over and over again, and I've always had a really 328 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:18,159 Speaker 2: hard time finding hard data yeah to back that. You know, 329 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 2: I've heard a lot of anecdotal stories about how, yes, 330 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 2: we've put in orders and it's going to take seven 331 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 2: months for it to come, or you know, I've seen 332 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 2: the breakdown that, yes, electric trucks are obviously more expensive 333 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 2: than natural gas, but you know, market is driven by demand, 334 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 2: so you know, if there's a lot of investment in 335 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 2: truck technology and electric vehicle technology, I imagine that there'd 336 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 2: be more readily available. 337 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 4: You know, it's kind of you. 338 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 3: Know, the chicken and egg kind of thing. 339 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 2: Build it, they will come, which will come first? And 340 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:53,679 Speaker 2: that's kind of where the debate, the crooks of the 341 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,439 Speaker 2: debate always lies as, oh, but this technology is readily 342 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 2: available now. Well, you know, the critics argue, you know, 343 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 2: you might only be able to switch you know, six 344 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 2: trucks versus fifty trucks to electric vehicles because they are 345 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 2: more expensive. But that's a longer term investment because you 346 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:11,719 Speaker 2: won't have to then switch those you know, natural gas 347 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 2: trucks to EV's five years down the line. 348 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 3: Right, right, Yeah. Is there anything that we didn't talk 349 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 3: about that you want to make sure to kind of 350 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:25,160 Speaker 3: draw people's attention to in this story? 351 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 2: You know, I will just say that it's really hard 352 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 2: to kind of show the picture of the pollution in California, 353 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,919 Speaker 2: because it's a complicated topic and I don't think people 354 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:38,719 Speaker 2: realize that California, known for all of its great nature, 355 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,959 Speaker 2: is still really really struggling with this issue, and it 356 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 2: has been really politically divisive. You know, some of these 357 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 2: these are issues that have been coming up in the 358 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 2: local mirror race and you know, there have been a 359 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 2: lot of criticism from local groups about how this airboard 360 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 2: has been handling this over the years and why they 361 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 2: have not shifted their focus towards electric. 362 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 4: Vehicles, and there's been some change. 363 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 2: There were groups that targeted the La City Council member 364 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 2: to Busquno for voting against some of these regulations on refineries. 365 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,439 Speaker 2: You know, he was the chairman of the South Coast 366 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 2: and a lot of criticism against him, and he actually 367 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 2: just recently stepped down to run for mayor of Los Angeles. 368 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 4: He dropped recently. 369 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,920 Speaker 2: But you know, there's a pipeline of these individuals making 370 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 2: these decisions going on to bigger offices in California, but 371 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 2: still holding the messaging that natural gas and needs to 372 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:25,640 Speaker 2: be part of the transition. 373 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,160 Speaker 3: That's it for this week. Thanks for listening and we'll 374 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 3: see you next time.