Speaker 1: Hey, Welcome to Tech Stuff. OZ is out this week,
Speaker 1: so instead of a weekend tech episode, I wanted to
Speaker 1: bring in an expert to talk about the absolute hellscape
Speaker 1: unfolding on Elon Musk's social platform X. Heads up, We're
Speaker 1: going to be covering a sensitive topic, so if there
Speaker 1: are children with you, you might want to listen to
Speaker 1: this at another time. Since late December, Elon Musk's AI
Speaker 1: model Grock, which is built into X, has been generating
Speaker 1: non consensual sexual imagery when prompted. Now you may be thinking,
Speaker 1: I've heard of this happening before, and you'd be right.
Speaker 1: Congress even passed a law to curb the creation and
Speaker 1: distribution of sexually explicit deep fakes, So why is it
Speaker 1: still happening? Four or four Media Samantha Cole has been
Speaker 1: following the adult industry online culture of sex for years.
Speaker 1: She recently wrote an article titled Grock's AI sexual abuse
Speaker 1: didn't come out of nowhere, and while it's disturbing, we
Speaker 1: are thrilled to have her here on the podcast. So welcome, Sam.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us. Thrilled to be
Speaker 1: here to disturb. It is the thrilled disturbance that we
Speaker 1: are living in sam Can you talk a little bit
Speaker 1: about the early days of the Grock scandal, Like how
Speaker 1: did this start?
Speaker 2: Grok has been doing this for a while, like you said,
Speaker 2: like the prompts that are like make her blank, make
Speaker 2: her wear a skinny bikini, make her wear see through shirt,
Speaker 2: make her bend over and do such and such has
Speaker 2: been a thing for a while, and I think the
Speaker 2: escalation in the last couple of weeks has been I mean,
Speaker 2: it went very viral and became very popular with a
Speaker 2: lot more users on the platform, and it's started generating
Speaker 2: what other outlets have reported is actual child sexual abuse
Speaker 2: material AI generated, which is, you know, non consensual intimate imagery,
Speaker 2: And now they're reports of it creating images of children
Speaker 2: using AI, So not real kids that we know of,
Speaker 2: but still illegal in a lot of places and obviously
Speaker 2: still extremely harmful content to be on one of the
Speaker 2: biggest and most mainstream platforms that we have right now.
Speaker 1: So how does this compare to other, like commercially available
Speaker 1: AI models, How is it different?
Speaker 2: So Grock was made by Elon Musk as this alternative
Speaker 2: to open AIS chat, GBT or even Claude or some
Speaker 2: of the other big popular tech giant chatbots that also
Speaker 2: create images, And he made it because he wanted a
Speaker 2: quote unquote based, un restricted air quotes, free speech chatbot
Speaker 2: that would not have a bunch of guardrails that these
Speaker 2: others have. And these others have guardrails such as they
Speaker 2: won't generate sexual igery in many of these cases, they
Speaker 2: definitely won't generate images of children in sexual scenarios. So
Speaker 2: it wasn't his explicit intention when he first made this chatbot,
Speaker 2: or at least what he said what we know of publicly,
Speaker 2: to create a se sam generator, a child sexual abusymery generator.
Speaker 2: But he wanted something that was going to be like
Speaker 2: quote unquote, non woke, no censorship. You know, it had
Speaker 2: the cool little like rodent that would say a curse
Speaker 2: word and like the anime wife Fu Girl, who would
Speaker 2: you know, sex with you while you're in your test tesla,
Speaker 2: stuff like that. So I think that's that's what sets
Speaker 2: it apart in a lot of ways. And it's also
Speaker 2: it's being run, like you said, on a platform natively
Speaker 2: where people are also just posting normal stuff, posting news articles,
Speaker 2: posting like their thoughts for the day, posting a joke,
Speaker 2: a meme, and then alongside that you have images of
Speaker 2: women being undressed and you know, neutified is what a
Speaker 2: lot of these apps that do it professionally call it
Speaker 2: notification or undressing alongside just everyday life.
Speaker 1: So unfortunately, creating explicit, non consensual imagery of women and
Speaker 1: girls is not something new. Can you give our listeners
Speaker 1: a sort of brief rundown of when this started and
Speaker 1: when we started to see this online?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the thing that pretty much struck me at
Speaker 2: first when I first saw this happening with Rock and
Speaker 2: everyone talking about sexual abuse imagery on x formerly known
Speaker 2: as Twitter, is that this has been happening on Twitter
Speaker 2: when it used to be called Twitter for a very
Speaker 2: long time. It's something that lots of people who are
Speaker 2: in the space of preventing sexual abuse imagery harms have
Speaker 2: been talking about for a long time is that Twitter
Speaker 2: was and still is full of abusive imagery of women,
Speaker 2: real stuff like photos and videos that women don't want
Speaker 2: on the Internet. We used to call it revenge more
Speaker 2: it's non essential content that should not be spread like this,
Speaker 2: especially on a very mainstream platform. So that's been an
Speaker 2: issue for years and years and years. I would say
Speaker 2: it's kind of something baked into Twitter at this point
Speaker 2: where they didn't solve that problem before elam Must showed up,
Speaker 2: and they're definitely not solving it now after he showed
Speaker 2: up and fired thousands of moderators. So that's the context
Speaker 2: that we're in as far as the real stuff, like
Speaker 2: the actual recorded images and videos of women who don't
Speaker 2: want their images out there. And then to add to this,
Speaker 2: we have generative AI and apps that we've put it
Speaker 2: on a bunch of four or four and are being
Speaker 2: advertised in lots of spaces on you know, TikTok and
Speaker 2: Instagram and are very accessible to lots of people, including
Speaker 2: teenagers that say, would you like to see that girl
Speaker 2: from the gym nude? Do you want to make a
Speaker 2: chat out of her where she can never say no
Speaker 2: to you? But that over to x where people are
Speaker 2: just like I said, having normal conversations or not anymore.
Speaker 2: Nobody has a normal conversational next anymore and every thing.
Speaker 2: But you know, people were using it like they would
Speaker 2: any other social platform. And then at the same time
Speaker 2: you have built into it a non ponsential imagery generator,
Speaker 2: this factory that is an escalation of what we're already
Speaker 2: seeing with the standalone apps that you can download and
Speaker 2: then swap someone's face into someone else's body, put them
Speaker 2: in any situation you want.
Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about gam or Gate
Speaker 1: and just like the rise of deep fakes in seventeen eighteen,
Speaker 1: you know, where people were not actually using generative ad,
Speaker 1: but they were using photoshop. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's another thing that this entire situation is
Speaker 2: reminded me of is the way that Gamergate, which was
Speaker 2: a harassment campaign primarily focused on women in gaming and
Speaker 2: then kind of spread out to just be women on
Speaker 2: the Internet in general. Very misogynistic harassment campaign. It originated
Speaker 2: on places like four tan chan and on these forums
Speaker 2: that were known to be toxic and full of in cells,
Speaker 2: but it eventually migrated and got the big popularity that
Speaker 2: it eventually got and had the big impact on people's
Speaker 2: actual lives because all of that content landed on Twitter,
Speaker 2: and that's where you see people actually, you know, reporting
Speaker 2: on it in a serious way, you know, people meaning
Speaker 2: like the media taking it seriously. Because now it's on
Speaker 2: this mainstream platform, it's getting so much more exposure from
Speaker 2: lots of people. It's radicalizing some people being this harassment
Speaker 2: campaign that it is a lot of it relied on
Speaker 2: shame and sexual shame, so that definitely felt like a
Speaker 2: parallel to me. It's like we had these sort of
Speaker 2: like almost but not quite underground communities for lack of
Speaker 2: a better word, creating content, creating harassment campaigns away from
Speaker 2: the mainstream that eventually make their way to a place
Speaker 2: like Twitter or literally Twitter and in this case x
Speaker 2: where it has this explosive effect and it has this
Speaker 2: farther reach on people's lives because you know, you're searching
Speaker 2: sample on Google, it might be my Twitter that comes up,
Speaker 2: and then you click on my Twitter, it might be
Speaker 2: like tons of replies from people talking about my body
Speaker 2: and harassing me in that way. And this is something
Speaker 2: that like lots of women have to do with on
Speaker 2: the Internet today. So that's just kind of a hypothetical example,
Speaker 2: but it was actually happening to lots of women during
Speaker 2: the time that we're talking about Steen twenty seventeen, twenty teen.
Speaker 2: It feels very like a pattern, like a formula at
Speaker 2: this point.
Speaker 1: So you talk about Twitter sort of being the for
Speaker 1: lack of a better word, the dumping ground for this
Speaker 1: kind of content and you write about how the National
Speaker 1: Center for Missing and Exploited Children has consistently ranked Twitter,
Speaker 1: and you know, subsequently x as quote one of the
Speaker 1: leading hosts of child sexual abuse material every year for
Speaker 1: the last seven years. What do you think it is
Speaker 1: about Twitter an x as a platform that has allowed
Speaker 1: for this type of content to proliferate for so long
Speaker 1: before Elon bought it.
Speaker 2: I would have said moderation and the unwillingness and also
Speaker 2: like the hesitancy to overmoderate or the fear of being
Speaker 2: seen as like stamping out free speech and letting people
Speaker 2: just harass other people on your platform endlessly. Twitter had
Speaker 2: a Nazi problem before Elon took it over, and now
Speaker 2: we have Elon, who is a white supremacist sympathizer at best,
Speaker 2: owning the platform that had a Nazi problem and is
Speaker 2: seemingly not at all interested in creating a healthy and
Speaker 2: productive social media platform. It's mostly just an engagement and
Speaker 2: rage bait and outrage bait farm, and part of that
Speaker 2: is the non consensual stuff. So you had an existing problem,
Speaker 2: it's just ten times worse now because Elon is you know,
Speaker 2: in fucking mode and doesn't care what happens to the
Speaker 2: people that are using his platform other than using it
Speaker 2: as a way to talk directly to people who are
Speaker 2: in power at this point. So I would say that's
Speaker 2: what makes it uniquely fraught, and also just the influence
Speaker 2: that it has on everyday life. I mean, tweets were
Speaker 2: on CNN and still are. It's very much a place
Speaker 2: where people thought was like the town Square. Hate that phrase,
Speaker 2: but that's kind of about how people saw on Twitter.
Speaker 2: Is you know, things were getting hashed out on Twitter
Speaker 2: that were representative of real life. Was the attitude towards
Speaker 2: Twitter for a really long time. That's part of why
Speaker 2: Ellan bought it. He wanted that sort of influence. He
Speaker 2: thought that he could make it the everything app where
Speaker 2: everything that you wanted to do in life happened on
Speaker 2: x So I think that effect where it's like it
Speaker 2: is somewhere where everyone is or used to be. Now
Speaker 2: a lot of people are not, but the fact that
Speaker 2: it was this place where everyone was gathering, everyone's congreting.
Speaker 2: You get jobs off of being on Twitter, especially as
Speaker 2: writer or creative. You might get discovered off of Twitter, and.
Speaker 1: So many of people got hired off of Twitter. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And comedy writers.
Speaker 2: Comedy writers, yeah, it's like where you like go to
Speaker 2: stand out and end up working at you know, like
Speaker 2: Buzzfew News or something.
Speaker 1: It was huge for that.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I know that I felt like I had
Speaker 2: to have a Twitter presence because I was a journalist
Speaker 2: in that era.
Speaker 1: Do you feel that way anymore?
Speaker 2: No, not at all. I mean I am on Twitter.
Speaker 2: I'm on Twitter now because I'm reporting on Twitter, but
Speaker 2: I'm not using it in the way that I did
Speaker 2: then at all. Thank God I don't have to be.
Speaker 2: I'm not required to be.
Speaker 1: But yeah, so you mentioned that the child sexual abuse
Speaker 1: material is being created, but we don't currently think the
Speaker 1: children depicted are real. You know, what would you say
Speaker 1: to someone who says that this is a victimless crime.
Speaker 2: So we know from just speaking about the child sexual
Speaker 2: abuse material stuff. We know from experts who work in
Speaker 2: fields where they're trying to find victims, who are trying
Speaker 2: to find perpetrators of sexual abuse material, that generated AI
Speaker 2: has made all of their jobs so much harder, and
Speaker 2: their job was already so incredibly hard aside from being
Speaker 2: often trained on real children, and in some cases we've
Speaker 2: found trained on sexual abuse material to make the generative
Speaker 2: AI stuff. So there is actually a victim behind this stuff.
Speaker 2: It's used to groom children in cases where a perpetrator
Speaker 2: might send an AI generated image to a child and say, look,
Speaker 2: this kid did this. Can you do this? And it's
Speaker 2: like you don't even need to have an existing victim
Speaker 2: to create more victims. It's just something you can generate
Speaker 2: up with AI. Now. It also just it makes it
Speaker 2: harder to find the real stuff and the real victims
Speaker 2: who are being abused in real life because it looks
Speaker 2: real and it's hard to tell the difference. So investigators
Speaker 2: are spending timelyzing AI to find out whether or not
Speaker 2: it's real and whether it's fake in the way of
Speaker 2: finding actual kids, it's wasting their time. So it's just
Speaker 2: it's polluting their occupation in a way that is unfathomable
Speaker 2: considering what they have to contend with every day. Already.
Speaker 1: Has X tried to address this issue at all.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think there have been gestures at condoning
Speaker 2: or condemning, sorry for Randslip, at making this problem go away,
Speaker 2: But I think anything that they try to do at
Speaker 2: this point, it's short of turning off Grock entirely and
Speaker 2: making the damage generation not something that people can access
Speaker 2: anymore is not enough. They're now being investigated by the
Speaker 2: Attorney General. Rab Banta is just announced that he's gonna
Speaker 2: investigate groc and X. I mean, I think it's just
Speaker 2: like the cat is out of the bag for them.
Speaker 2: This is a problem that they are going to end
Speaker 2: up having dancer for I think, I hope.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I mean, who knows, you know, it's like these elon's
Speaker 2: slippery like that, so who knows if we'll get away
Speaker 2: with it. But it's definitely caught the eye of investigators.
Speaker 2: It's caught the eye of a lot of these groups
Speaker 2: that are working to prevent harms like this online. I
Speaker 2: think it's definitely it's crossed a line for a lot
Speaker 2: of people who maybe saw X as toxic and not
Speaker 2: a place they want to be, and now it's like, oh,
Speaker 2: this is actively creating really really bad material at scale,
Speaker 2: and that's a difference. That's a line to be crossed
Speaker 2: for them.
Speaker 1: After the break is AI generated non consensual imagery the
Speaker 1: new normal stay with us. You know, it's obvious that
Speaker 1: not everyone on X is generating and posting these explicit images.
Speaker 1: Some people just use X the way that they use Twitter,
Speaker 1: but I'm curious what effect you think these images have
Speaker 1: on the broader X community.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that's a good question and
Speaker 2: something that we should actually be thinking about more and
Speaker 2: the effect that it has on people who are using
Speaker 2: X who are probably used to this anyway, and then
Speaker 2: also people who are not using it, And it definitely
Speaker 2: normalizes normalizes it in a big way. I'm sure it
Speaker 2: emboldens the people who are making apps that are for
Speaker 2: this purpose, that are monetizing deep fakes and non essential
Speaker 2: pornography at scale. I'm sure that they see this as like, Okay,
Speaker 2: hell yeah, he's not facing any repercussions, so we're gonna
Speaker 2: go full tilt at it, right, And I think that's
Speaker 2: a worst case scenario, and I'm sure it's happening. But
Speaker 2: then it's also like it just it normalizes this content,
Speaker 2: which at the heart of it is about non content.
Speaker 2: It's about using women's bodies in ways that they don't want,
Speaker 2: it's about ignoring body of the autonomy. It normalizes all
Speaker 2: of that to other people on the platform who might
Speaker 2: be like, oh, well, if that guy's doing it, you.
Speaker 1: Know, maybe I should do it at the gym.
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe I should take a picture of the girl
Speaker 2: at the gym and try to see what ROC can
Speaker 2: do with.
Speaker 1: It, which is just.
Speaker 2: Like, it's a shocking I think that's probably the most
Speaker 2: shocking thing about it is that it's just it's no
Speaker 2: longer like I'm using this app that pretends to be
Speaker 2: something else but is secretly a porn app that makes
Speaker 2: face wop images of girls in my class. It's we're
Speaker 2: doing this in the open on Twitter, on x on
Speaker 2: like the biggest, one of the biggest social media platforms
Speaker 2: out there, and nothing bad is happening to me for it,
Speaker 2: and the platform says it's fine. I think, especially when
Speaker 2: there's no one else in your life saying it's not fine,
Speaker 2: you know, it's it's just kind of creating the snowball
Speaker 2: effect of people who are interested in it want to
Speaker 2: try it.
Speaker 1: So what are the numbers in terms of like proliferation
Speaker 1: of this, Like what what are we looking at in
Speaker 1: terms of how much of this is online?
Speaker 2: Anyone can search on x right now you're at rock
Speaker 2: and then like make her, you know, do this and
Speaker 2: that or like some version of the prompt that they're doing,
Speaker 2: and it's just multiple times a minute, every minute. People
Speaker 2: are making a new one of those. I think conservatively
Speaker 2: it's in the like hundreds of thousands of images all
Speaker 2: together in the last week or so.
Speaker 1: So crazy, I.
Speaker 2: Mean, just based on the every time I check on it,
Speaker 2: and it's just like a running You can't keep up
Speaker 2: with the feed of people trying to make her do
Speaker 2: this and that, make her where clear date bikini or
Speaker 2: whatever it is.
Speaker 1: This is obviously a huge problem or other countries responding
Speaker 1: differently than the United States.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think the UK was talking about banning
Speaker 2: x entirely in the country.
Speaker 1: On account of this deep fake pornography and grog. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think offcom was getting involved in saying that it
Speaker 2: could happen if they don't figure it out and turn
Speaker 2: it off and somehow make it get better, Which is
Speaker 2: interesting because they passed the Online Safety Act a while back,
Speaker 2: and it's requiring a lot more censorship and a lot
Speaker 2: more it's the age vocation stuff that we're seeing here
Speaker 2: in the States where they're requiring a lot of sites
Speaker 2: and social media sites to verify ages before you can
Speaker 2: use them because they want to kind of push adult
Speaker 2: content in that direction. And now they're kind of teasing
Speaker 2: the idea of banning X over something that is so
Speaker 2: blatantly criminal and so so harmful. It's like, you know,
Speaker 2: where's the line for you guys? Where's when are we
Speaker 2: gonna hit the button? But I don't know, I think
Speaker 2: they I'm sure it's more complicated than that.
Speaker 1: And is there anything that like the general public can.
Speaker 2: Do stay off acts? If you don't want to see
Speaker 2: some bad stuff? I would say that's that's a big one.
Speaker 2: Maybe call your reps if this is an issue you
Speaker 2: care about. It's definitely illegal in a lot of states
Speaker 2: to create and to at least to generate and spread
Speaker 2: and disseminate AI child sexual abas material, So you know,
Speaker 2: what are those states going to do about it? Is
Speaker 2: kind of my question.
Speaker 1: How does the Take It Down Act play into this?
Speaker 1: If at all?
Speaker 2: The Takedown Act affords victims more recourse. So if you're
Speaker 2: in a deep fake, and if you're in a sexually
Speaker 2: explicit deep fake and you want that taken down, you
Speaker 2: can message the websites and say I need this removed.
Speaker 2: This is non extent material, and those websites need to
Speaker 2: comply with those sorts of requests. And that's a federal law.
Speaker 2: So if someone's making images of you that you don't
Speaker 2: want to happen on X. Under that law, X should
Speaker 2: not be hosting them. I mean, it's it should require
Speaker 2: platforms to take some action when someone reaches out and says, hey,
Speaker 2: this is bad stuff, I don't want it on here.
Speaker 2: That's different than like actually putting the onus on the
Speaker 2: platforms themselves.
Speaker 1: Right, So, the Pentagon actually announced that GROC will be
Speaker 1: used in their network. This is kind of related to
Speaker 1: what we've been talking about, But like, what will it
Speaker 1: actually take for the US government to regulate X and GROC?
Speaker 1: Will the US government regulate X and GROCK?
Speaker 2: I mean that when I saw that, I was like,
Speaker 2: this is so perfect for the way that things are now. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't know what it'll take anymore, especially since there
Speaker 2: all in bed together. I really don't know. It feels
Speaker 2: like we're in this extremely weird gray zone as far
Speaker 2: as what is and isn't law, and like what is
Speaker 2: I mean, what is law?
Speaker 1: Is what is law?
Speaker 2: But like, is there going to be any kind of
Speaker 2: any kind of action taken to abide by the law
Speaker 2: when it comes to these sites? And especially now that
Speaker 2: the Pentagon is like, hey, we love Rock and we're
Speaker 2: going to use it just unreal to announce that right
Speaker 2: in the middle of this huge scandal.
Speaker 1: Is there anything about this particular scandal that we didn't
Speaker 1: cover that you are concerned about.
Speaker 2: It's something that's kind of in the back of my mind,
Speaker 2: but I'm not even sure how to articulate. Is how
Speaker 2: striking it is that there is such a demand for this,
Speaker 2: that it is so many people who really want to
Speaker 2: make this kind of content kind of tells me that
Speaker 2: it's already normalized and it's already happening, and this is
Speaker 2: just the next step up from that. So you know,
Speaker 2: behind all these prompts, it's a lot of them are
Speaker 2: probably bots, a lot of them are probably people. And
Speaker 2: we know for a fact that this sort of thing
Speaker 2: and making images of people in intimate situations when they
Speaker 2: do not want that is a very popular industry. And
Speaker 2: I think that's something that we need to take some
Speaker 2: action on, do some educating on, intervene earlier in especially
Speaker 2: young men's lives, when they start going down these routes.
Speaker 2: I think it's just and it's going to get worse
Speaker 2: and worse is it gets more and more industrialized and
Speaker 2: monetized and productized in the way that we've seen with ROC.
Speaker 1: Have you talked to victims of this content and like,
Speaker 1: if so, what have you heard from them? Yeah? I have.
Speaker 2: It's it's always hard to really grasp what it feels
Speaker 2: like to be in a deep fake, and especially a
Speaker 2: sexual deep fake, until it happens to you. So I
Speaker 2: think it is important to keep talking to victims of
Speaker 2: this because they they have felt it firsthand and they
Speaker 2: can really describe it. But what they feel is it's shocking,
Speaker 2: it's rings, it follows you throughout your day, your week,
Speaker 2: whatever it is your life. Some of the women that
Speaker 2: have talked to you have ben targets of defate porn
Speaker 2: talk about how they are afraid to go out in
Speaker 2: public because their face is on this stuff and they
Speaker 2: didn't want it to be. And it's like they have
Speaker 2: nothing against like the porn industry or adult content or
Speaker 2: sex work, but they didn't ask to be in this,
Speaker 2: and it's something that changes your life and you have
Speaker 2: to be ready for that, and they're afraid to apply
Speaker 2: for jobs, they're afraid to date in some of the
Speaker 2: extreme cases. It's just something that really latches onto your
Speaker 2: name and your image in a way that is hard
Speaker 2: to imagine if it hasn't happened to you, And most
Speaker 2: of them just want it to stop. They just want
Speaker 2: the imagery to stop being spread. They want people to
Speaker 2: stop putting their name on this stuff and tagging them
Speaker 2: and replying to them on social media with it. They
Speaker 2: care less sometimes about the person who's making it and
Speaker 2: more that they just stop doing it.
Speaker 1: Right right, sense that this is something that will slow down?
Speaker 2: No, no, Now, I mean the way that it's going now, No,
Speaker 2: no way. I think people whose interest in a way,
Speaker 2: you know, it's like this particular news cycle and like
Speaker 2: hype cycle of Grock making this abuse imagery will slow down,
Speaker 2: and as a result, people will make less of those
Speaker 2: images on Grock, I'm sure. But all of this has
Speaker 2: just created more and more of a wildfire for the
Speaker 2: bigger issue of Yeah, I generated abuse material. So no,
Speaker 2: I don't think I've been wanting I've been waiting for
Speaker 2: it to slow down for six years, and.
Speaker 1: It just seems like there are new tools. It doesn't
Speaker 1: seem like there's less content.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1: I want to say thank you, Sam, are we disturbed?
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't want to say thank you, but
Speaker 1: I appreciate your time and care to covering the story
Speaker 1: and for taking the time.
Speaker 2: No, thank you for covering this. Thank you for shedding
Speaker 2: light on this for sure.
Speaker 1: Thank you. That's it for this week for tech Stuff.
Speaker 1: I'm Cara Price. This episode was produced by Eliza Dennis
Speaker 1: and Melissa Slaughter. It was executive produced by me Oswa Oshan,
Speaker 1: Julian Nutter, and Kate Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Norvell
Speaker 1: for iHeart Podcasts. Jack Insley mixed this episode and Kyle
Speaker 1: Murdoch wrote our theme song. Please rate, review, and reach
Speaker 1: out to us at tech Stuff podcast at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1: We want to hear from you.