1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: Just a heads up. This episode mentions violence against women 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: and death. There Are No Girls on the Internet as 3 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: a production of My Heart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm 4 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on 5 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: the Internet. When I was twenty one, a good friend 6 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: of mine went missing. I'm not sure it's something I 7 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: ever completely got over, and I still kind of think 8 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: of my adult life as divided between before her disappearance 9 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: and after her disappearance. That's how much the experience changed me. 10 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 1: Watching my friend's story be picked apart on Nancy Grace's 11 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: true crime television show was one of the most surreal 12 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: experiences of my life. I just remember how foreign the 13 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: person that she was describing seemed to me. I didn't 14 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:53,279 Speaker 1: recognize my cool, funny friend at all. By the time 15 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: I found her body, I had stopped watching programming about 16 00:00:56,400 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: her case altogether. I just couldn't keep listening to people 17 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: trying to tell her story without her in it. This week, 18 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: authorities found the remains of Gabby Potito, the twenty two 19 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 1: year old woman who was documenting her travels to national 20 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:11,919 Speaker 1: parks with her fiance in a van. Now this story 21 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 1: is heartbreaking, and it also feels really familiar to me. 22 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: Gabby's tragic story ignited social media. Now, many people were 23 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,680 Speaker 1: just legitimately trying to get the word out about Gabby's disappearance, 24 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: but I was also really troubled by the kind of 25 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: content that other folks on social media were making that 26 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: included everything from baseless conspiracy theories two psychics claiming to 27 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: have information about her whereabouts. Now, these weren't just random 28 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: one off videos that maybe got a handful of views 29 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:43,679 Speaker 1: here or there. They were going viral on platforms like 30 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: Twitter and TikTok, and I just really didn't like it. 31 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: It felt like some people were gleefully picking apart this 32 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: tragedy with no regard for whether or not it was 33 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: actually helpful, ethical, or respectful. And I think that's because 34 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: when it comes to the genre that we know as 35 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: true crime, in the kind of online conversation that it sparks, 36 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: it can be easy to forget that they're actual people 37 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 1: and actual tragedies. So what happens when the darkest moments 38 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: of a stranger's life are turned into content. Jessica Dean, 39 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: also known as Blood Beth and Beyond, has the making 40 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: videos on TikTok about some of the less ethical aspects 41 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 1: of the true crime community. For months. You might remember 42 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: her from our episode debunking viral myths around sex trafficking. 43 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: Fed up with the ways that content creators talk about 44 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 1: tragedy like it's a puzzle or just an interesting story, 45 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 1: she's been using her platform to urge for more careful, respectful, 46 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: and thoughtful conversations around crime. I want to say right 47 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:41,920 Speaker 1: up front that this is a tough conversation and I 48 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: do not have all the answers, but I spoke to 49 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 1: Jessica about what happens when true crime sparks of frenzy 50 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 1: of internet sleuths and viral conspiracy theories, and now we 51 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: can all work to create ethical conversations about crime that 52 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: can lead to actual systemic change. So my name is 53 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: Jessica Dean. I go by blood Beats and on primarily 54 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: on TikTok, which was my largest platform, and I've actually 55 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: been on the podcast before. I'm excited to be back. 56 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 1: I'm so grateful that you invited me back, and I 57 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: guess today we're talking about true crime. Yes, we're so 58 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 1: glad to have you back as a friend of the show, 59 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: because I honestly can't think of a better person to 60 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:19,359 Speaker 1: help me unpack all of these feelings I've been having 61 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: about true crime content. You know, I'm not really a 62 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 1: big consumer of true crime content myself, and I know 63 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: that you've been really vocal about some of the problems 64 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: with the genre on TikTok, and I guess I just 65 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: feel like it exploits a very real anxiety that women have, 66 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 1: that tragedy is lurking around every corner. And I always 67 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: really take issue with content that exploits and plays on 68 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: our anxieties when it can also spark real world behavior 69 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: like amplifying conspiracy theories or mobilizing internet sleuth who try 70 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: to solve crimes without necessarily stopping to ask if it's 71 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: actually a useful precedent. So, I guess my first question is, 72 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 1: what are your thoughts on all this? What are your 73 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: thoughts on true crime? And why do you make videos 74 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: trying to amplify the ways that true can be really unethical? Yeah, 75 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: So I think it's important, like right off the bat, 76 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: to save myself, um, a little bit of headache later, um, 77 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: that I want to be clear that not all true 78 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: crime content is the same, Especially on TikTok. There are 79 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: some creators of true crime content that I find make 80 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 1: uh at least what I would consider more palatable and 81 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: what I think is more genuine content. Um. But a 82 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: lot of my videos I had made in the past 83 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 1: were kind of hyper fixating and really shining a light 84 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 1: on some of the rougher stuff that you can definitely 85 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: find out there. Uh, And so like, with that out 86 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: of the way, I think it's uh, probably important we 87 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 1: talk about some of the more problematic popular stuff that 88 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: definitely goes viral. I find things ranging from true crime 89 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: accounts that are dedicated to like frosting cookies, Like I 90 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: think they're a professional baker and they'll be frosting cookies 91 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: while they talk about some poor woman that was brutally 92 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 1: murdered by her boyfriend, and they kind of make it 93 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 1: I don't want to say lighthearted, but it definitely has 94 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: a very lighthearted atmosphere about it, like, oh, look at 95 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 1: me decorating this cute little cookie of a puppy, and 96 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: it feels to really take away from the seriousness of 97 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 1: the situation. I've also found accounts that are dedicated to, 98 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: uh somebody, you can find it on Amazon. Somebody published 99 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: like a coloring book all dedicated to different types of 100 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: serial killers, and I think they tried to advertise it 101 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: as some sort of like educational material because I think 102 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:18,359 Speaker 1: it gives like a little blurb of each serial killer 103 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 1: on every page, but it's also still a coloring book, 104 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: so it feels a little morbid. And oftentimes these people 105 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: who are making these videos, they'll have themselves talking over 106 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: these videos, and the attitude about it just seems very off. 107 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 1: They've got this very lighthearted, almost fun ha ha, crazy 108 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,280 Speaker 1: how this happened ten years ago, kind of attitude about it, 109 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:42,840 Speaker 1: and it's always been driving me really crazy because not 110 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:44,840 Speaker 1: to get into too many specifics about it, but as 111 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: somebody who is actually pretty close to a very high 112 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: profile case, if I saw somebody making content about that 113 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: specific high profile case, I could not be disgusted. So 114 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: I can't imagine that people who had an even closer 115 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 1: connection to these high profile cases they're covering might come 116 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:05,040 Speaker 1: across this content and how they might react or how 117 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,799 Speaker 1: that might make them feel. And it's it's truly unfortunate 118 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 1: because I often hear kind of as a reaction to 119 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: that is like, oh, they wouldn't see it, Um, well, 120 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: I saw I've seen several videos related to the case 121 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 1: that I have a connection to, and they don't make 122 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 1: me feel great. And I think it's really important that 123 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: we remember that, especially if a lot of true crime 124 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:28,040 Speaker 1: content creators will come at with an attitude of respecting 125 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: the victims and trying to bring awareness to situations, especially 126 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 1: if they're potentially ongoing. But that's kind of hard to 127 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: that's a hard pill to swallow when you also look 128 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:38,599 Speaker 1: at their content and you're like, if I were the 129 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 1: person affected by the situation, I would not feel comfortable 130 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: with how you're covering your the attitude you have, or 131 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: just the atmosphere of the content in general. So that 132 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 1: was the big driving factor for me to highlight some 133 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: of the more nefarious parts of the true crime community. 134 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 1: And I always want to make sure that people understand that, 135 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: like I said, not all true kind all, not all 136 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 1: true crime content is the same, and it's really important 137 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: that we help uplift the content that is more ethical 138 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: and is speaking more politely about it. But one of 139 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: the biggest factors in that is highlighting though, but the 140 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: worst parts and the kind of instances we want to 141 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: be avoiding absolutely, you know, And I'm so glad that 142 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: you brought that up. You know, I think that it's 143 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: so important for people to remember that you're talking about 144 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: actual people and like their trauma and the and like 145 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: their community members who are left behind to like pick 146 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: up the pieces. And you know, I think I think 147 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: there was like a really frankly tasteless shirt or something 148 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: about Jeffrey Dahmer, and I think it was your TikTok 149 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: where it was like that wasn't that long ago, you know, 150 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 1: his the family members of his victims are very much 151 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: still alive, and like you think they don't have social media. 152 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: You think that it's so far fetched that they would see, 153 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: you know, tasteless crass shirts that people are selling with 154 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: like cute see little slogans on them. I think it 155 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: can be. I think when I see true crime content 156 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: that clearly does not take into effect the account that 157 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: you're talking about real people who, some of whom can 158 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: you know as yourselves, as you just said, like, we'll 159 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: see the way that you're talking about their loved ones 160 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: who were no longer here and like the worst most 161 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: dark parts of their experiences and just sort of being 162 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: so callous about that really doesn't sit well with me. Absolutely, 163 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: that was kind of my tipping point and uh not 164 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: to like get too much of my own personal life. 165 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 1: But the reason that the Jeffrey Dahmer shirt really stuck 166 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 1: out to me is because I actually currently live in 167 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: Milwaukee and the Jeffrey Dahmer was from Milwaukee. So I 168 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: don't know if it was the proximity to the crime 169 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 1: that kind of made me feel this way, but seeing 170 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: shirts that made a very lewd, sexual and very humorous 171 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: jokes about it, I was like, why, why one are 172 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: you comfortable selling this? Like the excuse of oh, it's 173 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: just dark humor learned to take a joke can only 174 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 1: carry you so far, and you can sell that shirt. 175 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna stop you, Um, but I am going 176 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:08,559 Speaker 1: to remind you that these people were human things and 177 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:12,319 Speaker 1: that Jeffrey Dahmer predominantly targeted gay black men and he 178 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: killed and sexually violently sexually assaulted children. UM. I'm gonna 179 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 1: remind you of that, and you kind of have to 180 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: live with how that makes you feel, because that's just reality. 181 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: And I think that helps snap a lot of people 182 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: back into like, oh, this might not have been great, 183 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: but there are people who are inevitably going to just 184 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: use that it's dark humor, get over at excuse regardless, 185 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 1: and we just kind of have to live with that. 186 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 1: But I mean, if reminding people helps, I'm not going 187 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: to be upset by it. Yeah, I mean, how would 188 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: you if you were wearing happy to be wearing one 189 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: of those like awful tasteless shirts making like making a 190 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 1: joke about Jeffrey Dahmer's crimes. Imagine like bumping into one 191 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: like a family member of one of the victims, like 192 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,679 Speaker 1: you better be Like, but would I wonder if people 193 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: would be how they would feel about explaining and it's 194 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: just a joke because is dark humor to their face 195 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: that they actually came in contact with these folks. I 196 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 1: think that like, perhaps it can feel like you're so 197 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 1: removed from these people, like they don't even necessarily seem 198 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,679 Speaker 1: like real people whose feelings or whose perspectives you even 199 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: need to take into account. It really just rubs me 200 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: the wrong way. Yeah, there was actually a I believe 201 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:19,559 Speaker 1: it was a bar. I don't want to say it 202 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 1: was a restaurant. I think it was just a bar 203 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: in Milwaukee that um, it's a really historical building, it's 204 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 1: very iconic, and they actually gotten a lot of controversy. 205 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 1: A few years ago, UH they were running like a 206 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,439 Speaker 1: Jeffrey Dahmer cannibal themed tour in the city of Milwaukee, 207 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: and somebody had mapped out that they were only maybe 208 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,679 Speaker 1: like three or four miles away from Uh Dahmer's old apartment. 209 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: It's since been demolished, but they were like a stone's 210 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 1: throw away from it, and it took so much public 211 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: pressure to be like, the family members are still in 212 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 1: this city. They probably drive past your bar. Why would 213 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:57,439 Speaker 1: you do this? And the amount of public pressure it 214 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 1: took is pretty sad, But eventually they caved, and it 215 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: kind of really helped the city Milwaukee reel back and 216 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 1: be like, Okay, maybe we shouldn't have Jeffrey Dahmer themed 217 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 1: food and drink and tours and make all these board 218 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 1: games and all these things like it. It really helped 219 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: kind of put that into perspective. So I hate when 220 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: you kind of have to land best or you have 221 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 1: to put one figure on a like on a pike, 222 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 1: to be like, look at this terrible thing, because like 223 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: this is a business. I still I don't want these 224 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: people to go jobless. But in an instance like that, 225 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: sometimes it does take publicly shaming one large group of 226 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: people to get the rest of the people to realize, like, hey, 227 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: maybe this isn't cool. So that's so interesting. I mean, 228 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 1: I want to I wanna switch gears a bit and 229 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 1: talk a bit about the case that I feel like 230 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 1: is really just taking off on TikTok um, that tragic 231 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 1: situation happening with Gabby Petito. Um by the time this 232 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 1: comes out, you know, I know, the last update that 233 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: I saw was that uh, they had found remains and 234 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,319 Speaker 1: they were consistent with her, but it wasn't wasn't clear 235 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: if it wasn't not um. I I want to stay 236 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: up right off the top of the the conversation that 237 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 1: you know, what happened to her is a tragedy. I 238 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: I you know, I don't know the specifics of what 239 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 1: has happened, but you know, it's tragic and horrifying, and 240 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 1: like my heart goes out to her family and to 241 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 1: her community, and I guess I wonder you know, I'm 242 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 1: sure you've seen them to all of these very it 243 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:33,199 Speaker 1: almost seems like every time there was a new update, 244 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: I was seeing new TikTok's on my for you page. 245 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: Some of them were just sort of like buy the book, 246 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 1: like here's what's going on, you know, just like news update, 247 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: and like I didn't really have a problem with those, 248 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:48,439 Speaker 1: but then I would see these other videos that almost 249 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 1: seemed kind of gleeful or like excited. I can't even 250 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: really describe it. It would be like you would think 251 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 1: they were talking about like a new episode of a 252 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,959 Speaker 1: show they like, but they're actually talking about like the 253 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: like disappearance of a young woman who is a real person. 254 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:12,439 Speaker 1: And I can't really explain the why. I I just like, really, 255 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 1: I was surprised to see this, and I was surprised 256 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:18,559 Speaker 1: to see how much it took hold. You know, I'm 257 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 1: I'm a bit older than you. So I remember when 258 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: Natalie Holloway went missing. I was in college, and it 259 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:27,199 Speaker 1: was like the around the clock coverage of her disappearance. 260 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 1: People were like, oh, well, it's because she is a 261 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,559 Speaker 1: like pretty white girl. And you know, there are so 262 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,199 Speaker 1: many different, you know, indigenous black and brown women who 263 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: have gone missing in the same area that certainly have 264 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: not gotten the same level of of you know, attention 265 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:43,679 Speaker 1: that this case has gotten. And that's not to take 266 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: away from the fact that I'm happy that people are 267 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 1: you know, really motivated to find her and that they're 268 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: that they're like they're talking about her case. But I 269 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 1: can't help but wonder like, is there a way that 270 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: people can talk about this situation? Just is seems kind 271 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: of ghoulish to me. Absolutely, You're you're hitting out all 272 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,319 Speaker 1: the all of the points that I've been trying to 273 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 1: get across on my TikTok. So, like you said, just 274 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: to make sure that we're all clear, like, we are 275 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 1: very happy that Gabby was able to get the social 276 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: media attention that she did get. And I think it 277 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: can high to an extent, it can highlight the power 278 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: of social media because there were so many posts out 279 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: there being like, hey, this young girl is missing. Here 280 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: is her name, here is her face, here's a couple 281 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 1: of identifying markers, and this is where she was last seen. 282 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 1: That's such critical information, especially if you're in that area. 283 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: This is a little bit more unique because it kind 284 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: of had like a transnational like it was two stay 285 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: it's very far away from each other. But especially if 286 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: you're local, that can be really useful. Somebody who happens 287 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: to see a TikTok about this girl, who happens to 288 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: see a piece of critical evidence like how we actually 289 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: experienced with this case. That is so crucial and it's 290 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: so important. I never want to downplay how important that is. 291 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: But at the same time it has this is such 292 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: an intense boomerang effect to that starts to come back around, 293 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: and we did see so many videos of people with 294 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: just outright the wrong attitude, very like you said, gleeful, 295 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: almost getty, very excited whenever they could be the first 296 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 1: one to break the next piece of information, which was 297 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: usually just purely speculation with nothing to back it up. 298 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: And it's frustrating to see that kind of content because 299 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: you're always going to have that on the Internet no 300 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: matter what you're talking about. There's always going to be 301 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: people when you have the entire world that your fingers, 302 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: who take things the wrong way. But these videos were 303 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: going viral, and I think that's one of the biggest 304 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 1: criticisms I've got, and one of the biggest pieces of 305 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: backlash I've got is why are you fixating on these 306 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: total rando crazies who have no followers And that's not 307 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: the case. I'm highlighting videos that have had hundreds of thousands, 308 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: if not millions of views. Yet somehow it seems like, 309 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 1: nobody's calling out the tone, and I think it really 310 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: speaks to the larger point of TikTok is a platform 311 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 1: you can go viral on very easily. It is very 312 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: easy to make content. The bar for entry is set 313 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: incredibly low, and so you have people who are by 314 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: far far from professional journalists making this kind of content. 315 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: But then at the end of the day, they want 316 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: to be put in the same category as journalists, and 317 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: they're like, I'm just breaking the news, I'm just trying 318 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: to spread awareness. Be like, Okay, now you're starting to 319 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: march in this territory of professional journalism, yet you're not 320 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 1: holding yourself and nobody's holding you too remotely what we 321 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: could could be considered journalistic standards. And like any journalist 322 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 1: who puts out a story that's absolutely crass and inappropriate, 323 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 1: they're going to receive backlash. If these TikTokers want to 324 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: be held in the same regard, they should were prepared 325 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: for the same exact backlash. Let's say a quick break. Yeah, 326 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 1: I saw one of the videos where um, somebody was 327 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: referencing l Woods. You know that scene at the end 328 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: of Legally Blonde where l is able to be like, oh, 329 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: because of her her perm, she couldn't have been in 330 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: the shower because her curls are intact. And it was 331 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 1: in reference to a Instagram picture of Gabby with blonde 332 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: hair with like her her roots had been done so 333 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: her roots were not dark. And again I think that 334 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:31,400 Speaker 1: referencing I love legally blonde. I think like referencing yourself 335 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:33,439 Speaker 1: as an L Woods type or any reference to that, 336 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: to like a comedy when we're talking about a missing person, 337 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: I think it's just not good. It's just it's been 338 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 1: bad taste, you know, exactly. And I think, like I 339 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 1: remember back during the Boston bombing. At that time, I 340 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:53,160 Speaker 1: was like very active on Reddit, and redditors were so 341 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 1: convinced they had found they had like solved the boss 342 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: the Boston bombing. Uh. They thought it was this guy 343 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: who had gone who had gone missing. His family was 344 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 1: looking for him, and they were like, oh, the pictures 345 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 1: are the same, and it turns out it was not true. 346 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:07,439 Speaker 1: Like it was just they got the wrong guy. This 347 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:11,640 Speaker 1: family who was already suffering from their you know, their 348 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 1: family member being missing, had to go through this process 349 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: of being like, he's not the Boston bomber. He is missing, 350 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 1: but he's not the Boston bomber, and it was just 351 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 1: a case of like they got the wrong person. They 352 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,439 Speaker 1: they you know, internet slew this just didn't know what 353 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: they were doing. And so part of me, I mean, 354 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 1: this is where it gets kind of complicated, and I 355 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:32,679 Speaker 1: don't necessarily have this is just my opinion, and I 356 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: don't necessarily have the like right answer. I'm just I 357 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: just have a lot of questions I saw on Twitter 358 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: or someone saying like, oh, well, there's too much emphasis 359 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: on some of the unsavory aspects of the true crime 360 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 1: TikTok community. But they're over there, they're glossing over the 361 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 1: fact that like gen z TikTok or like young women 362 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 1: and girls broke this case open, and you know that, 363 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 1: you know, they really cracked this case and gonna be 364 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: thinking like, hey, I'm not sure if that's true. B 365 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: When you glorify internet sleuth you also have to take 366 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: into account that internet sleuths have like ruined people's lives, 367 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 1: got the wrong person, you know, just gotten it wrong 368 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 1: because they're not actual you know, investigators. There's people on 369 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 1: on on social media or on the internet. And I also, 370 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know how I how I felt 371 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,159 Speaker 1: about that that she she basically said that the reason 372 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:35,159 Speaker 1: why people are being so hard on these TikTokers is 373 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: because they're mostly women, young women and girls, and that 374 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: we don't like young women and girls, and so it's 375 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,400 Speaker 1: just sexist. And I thought it was an interesting sort 376 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 1: of Devil's advocate position. I'm just not I was not 377 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: sure I agree. I just think that, like, it's unsavory, 378 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 1: and I don't find it unsavory because it's women and 379 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,919 Speaker 1: girls doing it. I find it unsavory because it's not 380 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,719 Speaker 1: a good thing to be doing. I guess that was 381 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: a pretty big reaction that I've been seeing online. Is 382 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: TikTok correctice case, these internet sleuths were the one who 383 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 1: ones who did it. It had a very similar air 384 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: to I hate to be referencing a Netflix show in 385 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:11,640 Speaker 1: this specific situation, but it's terrifyingly accurate is the show 386 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: Don't Funk with Cats. It was this case of this 387 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,679 Speaker 1: woman who had zero experience, had no idea really what 388 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 1: she was doing, but fell down this rabbit hole and 389 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: ended up actually solving a very complicated, pretty much dead 390 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:29,159 Speaker 1: end series of murders. And that was very impressive, and 391 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: it's kind of scary, because even that woman has come 392 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,360 Speaker 1: out and said, like, hey, this was purely coincidental. Please 393 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:37,159 Speaker 1: don't try to mimic what I was doing. Like I 394 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 1: didn't know what I was doing. I could have gotten 395 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:41,440 Speaker 1: really hurt. I could have accused the wrong person. This 396 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: just happened to work out perfectly. And so it's really 397 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 1: frustrating to see the people on TikTok who are now 398 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:49,879 Speaker 1: I don't want to say, taking credit, but are definitely 399 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 1: patting themselves on the back for having cracked this case, 400 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 1: in which, as far as I understand, at least when 401 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: we're recording right now, what the case was is that 402 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: the biggest piece of evidence they received help find this 403 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: poor girl's remains a few days ago, just yesterday. Wow, 404 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 1: time is time is weird? I was just yesterday that 405 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: she it. There was some like van life YouTubers who 406 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 1: made very similar content to Gabby, who had seen all 407 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: these stories online about how Gabby was missing and then 408 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: realized they happened to be in the same National park 409 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 1: as her roughly the same time, and they had a 410 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: bunch of unedited raw footage from their trip that they 411 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:29,440 Speaker 1: were going to put up on YouTube. So they scrubbed 412 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: through all this unedited footage and realized that they actually 413 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,880 Speaker 1: found like a clear shot of what was Gabby's van, 414 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:37,879 Speaker 1: and they sent that to the FBI. They had posted 415 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:40,679 Speaker 1: online about it too. The FBI followed up on that, 416 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:42,679 Speaker 1: went back to the same exact spot, and that's end 417 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: how they ended up finding her remains. So that's one 418 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,199 Speaker 1: of those instances of like the the story being on 419 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: social media and blowing up as big as it did, 420 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 1: truly did help in that specific instance at least bring 421 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 1: that tip to the proper authorities who were then able 422 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: to look into it and identify what it actually happened. 423 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 1: But there's that doesn't negate the insane amount of problems 424 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: that come with those same exact internet salutes. And it's 425 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,120 Speaker 1: truly frustrating to see the same people that two days 426 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: ago were conspiring that Gabby was actually a serial killer 427 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: um and that she was murdering other people and is 428 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 1: now on the run, or another conspiracy I had seen 429 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: is that she was just doing it all for attention, 430 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 1: are now very quick to jump in the pool of 431 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: people who magically cracked this case, and that's so ungodly frustrating. 432 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 1: I cannot put into words. How angry that makes me 433 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: that the same exact people who were claiming she was 434 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 1: doing it for attention are ready to say that they're 435 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 1: the ones who found her remains. That's I mean, I 436 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 1: can only imagine how frustrating that is. And yeah, the 437 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 1: short list of completely baseless conspiracy theories I saw people 438 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: saying on TikTok doing it for attention, she was killing 439 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 1: people her I guess fiance or partner had to be 440 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: guilty because he liked fight club. Another serial killer, who 441 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,879 Speaker 1: are another serial killer might have been responsible. Like, I 442 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 1: don't know that there's any kind of like link. Everybody's like, 443 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,400 Speaker 1: oh there's another you know, another couple was murdered around there. 444 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: Maybe maybe it's the same person. You know. Just I 445 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 1: feel like when you traffic in just like baseless conjecture 446 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:31,360 Speaker 1: to then be doing a bit of a victory laps, 447 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: it just seems very incongruous to me. Like I've I've 448 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: seen the same thing that you're talking about, where people 449 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 1: are now kind of like I don't want to say 450 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: taking credit, but really being like wow, my videos just 451 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,439 Speaker 1: wildly speculating they really helped, And I'm not I'm not 452 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:51,199 Speaker 1: sure if that's the right takeaway here exactly. There's I 453 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: don't want to name drop anybody on a podcast because 454 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: I don't want this person receiving a ton of hate. 455 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,359 Speaker 1: But there was one individual on TikTok who had made 456 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: um over for a videos about Gabby in less than 457 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 1: six days and was very quick to uh boost any 458 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,679 Speaker 1: of these random theories anytime through anybody through speculation her way, 459 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: she would immediately boost it, make a video about it, 460 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 1: and a lot of her videos we're getting hundreds of 461 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: thousands of views. And she is now the impression I'm 462 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 1: getting is she's like, we did it, guys, we got 463 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,199 Speaker 1: Gabby justice. Now let's go after the next person, Like 464 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 1: let's just keep going down the list of missing persons. 465 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: And I was like, this is not a healthy way 466 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 1: to go about like helping, Like there's nothing wrong with 467 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: being like I want to help bring awareness to missing persons, 468 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,199 Speaker 1: especially kind of circling back how you said there are 469 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:38,919 Speaker 1: a lot of black, brown and Indigenous people that do 470 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: not get the same level of attention. That can be 471 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: a really well intentioned attitude about how you present yourself online. 472 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: But you were very lucky about how this Gabby situation 473 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 1: played out because like you said, with the Reddit situation, 474 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: all these Boston bomber conspiracy theories that they had going on, 475 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 1: it did not end well, and it's not unreasonable to 476 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 1: assume that we could have a very similar situation on 477 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:09,119 Speaker 1: our hands if the Internet, through mob justice, vigilante justice, 478 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it, starts to all jointly 479 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 1: come to the conclusion that somebody who's potentially innocent in 480 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 1: a situation um is then so aggressively harassed online that 481 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 1: they're possibly driven to do something unthinkable. Uh, it's it's 482 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: rough to think about that that could happen, and how 483 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: ready and how excited people, especially on TikTok are right 484 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,360 Speaker 1: now to do exactly that. Yeah, that's a really good reminder. 485 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 1: And I think part of me, like the part of 486 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 1: me that's interested in why humans do the things they do. 487 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 1: I can understand why people almost seem excited too to 488 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: piece together what happened in this situation. It almost seems 489 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 1: like it's like a puzzle or a game, like I 490 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 1: can under and I can understand why it makes people 491 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: feel very validated to be like, oh, we are crusading 492 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 1: for justice for this this this young woman who is 493 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: not here to fight for herself, Like all of that 494 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 1: feels very noble. So like, I want to be clear 495 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: that I can really understand the reasoning behind why people 496 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 1: get but why people act the way they do when 497 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: it comes to this kind of thing, I really can. 498 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,719 Speaker 1: But I think that those kinds of feelings can be 499 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 1: sort of intoxicating, and when you're when you're intoxicated on 500 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:25,920 Speaker 1: a feeling, when you when you feel like you are, 501 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: you know, crusading for justice. I think that sometimes, you know, 502 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 1: the bigger picture can get missed and you can sort 503 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 1: of like miss exactly what you're talking about. What happens 504 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: if somebody is wrongly accused, what happens if you're actually 505 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,679 Speaker 1: making you know, an investigation work, Like what if you're 506 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 1: actually impeding an investigation by whipping up so much social 507 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:50,639 Speaker 1: media frenzies. So I'm happy that in this case it 508 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: seems like it might have gone okay, But I don't 509 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: want that to make it seem like, oh, it's it's 510 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 1: good to have a social media fueled you know, mob 511 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 1: justice style internet sleuth frenzy. It's always going to end 512 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: up okay. Um, I feel like that's a really dangerous 513 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:14,160 Speaker 1: precedent exactly and especially talking about just like the possible 514 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 1: implications of something going this viral. Uh, like the O. J. 515 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,120 Speaker 1: Simpson case that was one of the most iconic, high 516 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 1: profile cases, and because it was covered on literally every 517 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 1: inch of the every inch of the news, every magazine, 518 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:33,360 Speaker 1: every newspaper, it was absolutely everywhere. Uh. That actually dramatically 519 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,479 Speaker 1: impacted how the courtroom played out, because how can you 520 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 1: find a jury of impartial jurors when every single person 521 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,400 Speaker 1: has heard about this story and every single person has 522 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 1: come to their own conclusion. So I can imagine that 523 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,440 Speaker 1: if I pray that Gabby finds justice and we figure 524 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 1: out exactly what happened, and this potentially leads to somebody 525 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:57,119 Speaker 1: being tried in court. Uh. The more viral this story is, 526 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,640 Speaker 1: and the more conspiracies that are popular, the harder it's 527 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: going to be to find a group of twelve people 528 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: that don't already have their own opinions. Absolutely, I have 529 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,919 Speaker 1: to show you something that. So I don't know what 530 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 1: your Facebook feeds look like, but I know that mine 531 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,879 Speaker 1: has just been any little update on this case, a 532 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,959 Speaker 1: new story. And so I'm I'm in Washington, d C. Right, 533 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: I'm not anywhere near where this happened on my local 534 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,199 Speaker 1: Fox affiliate Fox five d C. I'm gonna show you 535 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:27,439 Speaker 1: this picture. I don't know if you can see it 536 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 1: through the camera and the yeah, and the headline says, 537 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: rainbow appears where authorities discovered body believed to be Gabby 538 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: the Potito. A rainbow appeared in the area where authorities 539 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 1: earlier Sunday discovered what they believe to be the body 540 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 1: of Gabby Potito and the Grand Titan National Park. And 541 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 1: part of me just thought, like, it's very clear to 542 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 1: me that any new angle they are going to get 543 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: as much eyeballs and then they they they're gonna use 544 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: this story to get as much eyeballs and clicks as possible, 545 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: like if it's an actual update on the case, or 546 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: an actual update in her disappearance or you know, something 547 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 1: like that. Sure, a part of people was like, who would, like, 548 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: you're capital You're like writing an article about a rainbow appearing, 549 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 1: making it like I just really had a problem with 550 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: that story, And I was like, wow, they really are 551 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: any new angle, they are wasting no time to make 552 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 1: sure that gets in our feeds, because it's almost like 553 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: they're it felt like they were feeding this like frenzy 554 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 1: or this appetite for a new content about this case. 555 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 1: And it didn't matter if it was actually a breaking update. 556 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: It didn't matter if it was actually like relevant to 557 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: the case. Uh. Personally, I don't think a rainbow appearing 558 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: in the sky is necessarily going to be relevant to 559 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 1: this case or even like timely local information from my 560 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: local news source here in d C. But the fact 561 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: that they were like surfacing this to me, I was like, well, 562 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: they really are just trying to have a steady stream 563 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 1: of content related to this, not not just important breaking, 564 00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: you know, information about it, but just like anything like 565 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: here's what the weather was like when they found her body. 566 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 1: M Yeah, that's that's a rough one. And that even 567 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 1: marshes kind of back into the territory of a lot 568 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: of people who say, how are these online internet sleuths 569 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 1: who just report every five seconds on the newest update, 570 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 1: whether it's true or not, any different than local news stations. 571 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 1: And there is an argument to be had for like 572 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 1: news stations tend to have this problem too. They tend 573 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: to milk stories for everything they're absolutely worth. But that 574 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 1: criticism of them is out there and public, and maybe 575 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 1: it's not getting enough attention and it's not getting enough 576 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: people talking about it as it deserves. But that doesn't 577 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 1: make the people online who don't even have remotely any 578 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: professional experience in this free from that same amount of 579 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: criticism to say like, oh, he did it too, is 580 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 1: not get out of jail free card from you also 581 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: being held liable for some of the content some random 582 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: person on the street might make. And I tend to 583 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: get a lot of criticism in the game of like, hey, 584 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: this isn't my day job. I'm just making endom videos 585 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 1: on the internet. Why are you mad at me? And 586 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 1: I totally get that. I'm somebody who makes random videos 587 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 1: on the internet too. I didn't plan on having a 588 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 1: quarter million followers. I still have a day job, and 589 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 1: it's I get it. But if you're going to keep 590 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: that platform, prepare for the criticism that's just that's what's 591 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: gonna come with it. Yeah. Right, that's such a good point. 592 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: And I think like it reminds me of something else 593 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 1: I learned from your video from your TikTok about this 594 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,960 Speaker 1: is that like sometimes particularly on YouTube, but I do 595 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 1: know on TikTok as well. You know your TikTok can 596 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 1: be monetized your YouTube can certainly be monetized. Part of 597 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 1: me was like, is this just people kind of like 598 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 1: making money off of someone else's trauma and someone else's 599 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 1: pain and someone else's tragedy. Like, you know, I can 600 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 1: understand the incentive to like report on every little thing, 601 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 1: be the first temple report on a breaking thing, no 602 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 1: matter if it's true. You know, every little speculation, make 603 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 1: a new video about it. If you are trying to 604 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 1: you know, game of five to get more eyeballs because 605 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: it leads to more money. I mean, that's definitely we know. 606 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: That is how some of these platforms were m hm, 607 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 1: absolutely and uh comparing not to do this for a second, 608 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:13,719 Speaker 1: but to compare the amount of money that you can 609 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: get between platforms, TikTok is one of the lowest paid 610 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 1: social media platforms. So uh, as far as like raking 611 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 1: in the cash, TikTok is not necessarily the best way 612 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,400 Speaker 1: to do it, of But that doesn't mean that you 613 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 1: can't make money on TikTok. I am no longer monetizing 614 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: my content. But when I did have monetized content, anytime 615 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: I broke a million views on a video, I could 616 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 1: get anywhere from like fifty bucks depending on how many comments, 617 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 1: how many likes, so many times it got shared. So 618 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 1: if you go back to what I was saying, there 619 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 1: was a girl with over forty videos and all them 620 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:48,720 Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of views. You start doing the math 621 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: that can add up really quickly. And that's not to 622 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 1: say that people's content doesn't have value and you shouldn't 623 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 1: be paid for your work, but especially if you are 624 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: being paid for your work, you should be held to 625 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 1: hire criticism because now, hey, you're making money off of 626 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: this um. If you want to just report on exactly 627 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 1: what happened, I can't fault you for doing that, and 628 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 1: I'm not necessarily mad that you're making money, But as 629 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 1: soon as you start getting into the conspiratorial, the speculative, 630 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 1: the outright wrong information, then hey, I'm gonna remind you 631 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 1: you're making money on this, you should probably try to 632 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,960 Speaker 1: be ethical about it. There was one girl in particular 633 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: who she sends taking her video down, and she has apologized, 634 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: so we'll give her credit for that. The girl who 635 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 1: popularized the theory that Gabby was actually a serial killer. Uh, 636 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: that's horrifying and I cannot imagine her family seeing that. 637 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: I feel bad even mentioning it on a podcast, but 638 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 1: that that happened, they spread that conspiracy theory and she 639 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 1: took her video down, but it's still all over Twitter. 640 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 1: It got millions of views. She probably made a decent 641 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 1: amount of money on that, And it's like, Okay, I 642 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 1: understand you're sorry. In hindsight, you feel bad, especially after 643 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 1: they found her remains, but you still make money on that. 644 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 1: It would be kind of nice if you donated, And 645 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:09,719 Speaker 1: I don't know, that's just me more after a quick break, 646 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,439 Speaker 1: let's get right back into it. I'm on this kick 647 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,759 Speaker 1: lately of like, if you have a platform, even if 648 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: it's a platform where you're not expecting to go viral, 649 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 1: maybe you don't have that many followers, and you just 650 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:31,720 Speaker 1: you say something and you're like, oh now I've gone viral. 651 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 1: Platforms common with responsibility, and like it is your responsibility 652 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 1: to be a good steward of your platform and not 653 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 1: just use it to spread baseless conspiracy theories typically that 654 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 1: are that harmful to the family of someone who has 655 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 1: gone missing. Like I just like, it's just completely irresponsible, exactly, 656 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,439 Speaker 1: and it's it's really said, and it kind of ties 657 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,840 Speaker 1: back into before this whole Gabby situation happened. Because I 658 00:34:57,840 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 1: don't want to linger on that too much because it's 659 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 1: kind of a larger conversation about true crime. But I 660 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,839 Speaker 1: was making a couple of videos that, like you had 661 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 1: said before, this had all happened a few months ago, 662 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 1: talking about like just some terrible things in the true 663 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,319 Speaker 1: crime community I was finding on the Internet and kind 664 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 1: of going back to like, oh, the Jeffrey Dahmer T 665 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 1: shirts or um, like the serial killer merchandise, these coloring books. Um, 666 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 1: these people are outright making money off of people's tragedies. 667 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 1: And I think that's a lot more black and white 668 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:33,719 Speaker 1: ethically irresponsible than somebody who's making content that kind of 669 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,400 Speaker 1: just talks about an active case in an active situation. Um. 670 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,120 Speaker 1: So I like criticizing them for how they make their 671 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,319 Speaker 1: money more because it's a lot more like, hey, maybe 672 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:46,720 Speaker 1: we shouldn't make a coloring book of a child predator. Yeah, 673 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I am just gonna say, if you're making 674 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 1: coloring books glorifying a child predator, you're an asshole. Like 675 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,239 Speaker 1: I'm going to say it should be illegal, but you're 676 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 1: an asshole. There. The jury is, the jury is not 677 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 1: still out if you're making if you're selling shirts that 678 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:07,920 Speaker 1: say cute see little slogans about Jeffrey Dahmer. You're not 679 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,319 Speaker 1: my kind of people. So completely agree with you there. 680 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:12,920 Speaker 1: And I do think it is much clearer, like if 681 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:16,440 Speaker 1: you're using your platform to make content about true crime 682 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,400 Speaker 1: and and you're monetizing them. Okay, like I have questions, 683 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,359 Speaker 1: but all right, but it's so clear when you're like, 684 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 1: oh yeah, I mass produce coloring books, I produced T shirts. 685 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 1: It's it's such a clearer I'm glad that you compared 686 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 1: the two because it's such a clearer example of like harm, 687 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:38,360 Speaker 1: I guess, like making money off of someone else's tragedy. Mhm. 688 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 1: So in your take, you know, if you are someone 689 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: who wants to make true crime content or like just 690 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,920 Speaker 1: generally like content that raises awareness, how can you be 691 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: sure that you're doing that in a way that it's 692 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 1: respectable and ethical. So I think that was a question 693 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 1: I had for myself for the longest time, especially because 694 00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,719 Speaker 1: when I started putting out criticisms, it wasn't necessarily like 695 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,400 Speaker 1: the most poignant criticisms. It was honestly kind of me randling, 696 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,840 Speaker 1: like this is kind of messed up. Why does this exist? 697 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,279 Speaker 1: And then I had a lot of people ask me like, oh, well, 698 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 1: if this isn't ethical, what do you consider to be ethical? 699 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,239 Speaker 1: Is there a way to ethically consume or produce true 700 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 1: crime content? So I've spent a ton of time mulling 701 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 1: that over, and it's actually been kind of helpful because 702 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:24,959 Speaker 1: there have been various true crime creators who have reached 703 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 1: out to me and been like, hey, I've seen your content. 704 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:29,880 Speaker 1: I one percent agree with you. I don't like that 705 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 1: kind of stuff either. I'm trying to change it. Can 706 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,400 Speaker 1: I get your support? And I've been very hesitant to 707 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 1: boost any one specific true crime content creator on my 708 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 1: own platform, but I have seen people who I think 709 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 1: are doing it in a slightly better way. I've seen 710 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,000 Speaker 1: a lot of like the most common form of true 711 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:50,920 Speaker 1: crime content is through a podcast. We've got things like 712 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,839 Speaker 1: My Favorite Murder Last podcast and left all those incredibly 713 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,560 Speaker 1: popular podcasts, and there's a lot of smaller ones out 714 00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:58,640 Speaker 1: there that right now that are really trying to break 715 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 1: through that folk entirely on victim advocacy. They talk about 716 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 1: police reform, they talk about prison reform, like they're truly 717 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: not just talking about like, hey, it's crazy how Jeffrey 718 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:11,320 Speaker 1: Dahmer like murdered a bunch of people a couple of 719 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,719 Speaker 1: decades ago. That's not the entire episode they're talking about. Hey, um, 720 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,359 Speaker 1: Jeffrey Dahmer did murder a lot of people a few 721 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 1: decades ago. Let's talk about, um, why that happened, what 722 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,759 Speaker 1: failings happened with the police, and why none of that 723 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 1: has changed yet, and why Milwaukee really needs to get 724 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 1: their stuff together. And I think that angle of the 725 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:35,400 Speaker 1: content of what systemically allowed this to happen, what created 726 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:39,879 Speaker 1: this environment where these things occurred, and what is still 727 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,400 Speaker 1: occurring in our society today, and how can we fundamentally 728 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,200 Speaker 1: change things so that these things do not continue. I 729 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,000 Speaker 1: think is some of the best true time content out there, 730 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 1: and I think it does have a genuine aim to 731 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 1: produce change. So I genuinely love that kind of content. 732 00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,840 Speaker 1: And I have overwhelmingly seen that content is predominantly produced 733 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:03,719 Speaker 1: people of color because they have that much more detailed, 734 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 1: in depth perspective. So pretty much any true kind of 735 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:09,960 Speaker 1: content creator within reason who is a person of color, 736 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,880 Speaker 1: I've immediately felt a stronger attraction to the content they 737 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:15,840 Speaker 1: make because they tend to have that heavier focus on 738 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,040 Speaker 1: that aspect, I am so glad that you said that, because, 739 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 1: you know, when thinking about it, I know that I'm 740 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,600 Speaker 1: not a huge consumer of true crime, But the content 741 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,360 Speaker 1: that I do consume, I think it's got to be 742 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,880 Speaker 1: content that is comfortable critiquing systems and particually systems of 743 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:33,600 Speaker 1: power and asking questions about how these systems fail victims 744 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,799 Speaker 1: and survivors. I know that so many true crime podcasts 745 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,840 Speaker 1: will just repeat what police officers say, or just repeat 746 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,560 Speaker 1: police reports verbatim, and it can kind of become this 747 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,160 Speaker 1: kind of copaganda where they're just like, oh, well the 748 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,000 Speaker 1: police said this, so that's got to be true. And 749 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,600 Speaker 1: I think good true crime content really has this opportunity 750 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 1: to not just take the police at their word, not 751 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 1: just take these systems at their word, but instead critique 752 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,400 Speaker 1: these systems and ask questions about how they really do 753 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,919 Speaker 1: fail victims and survivors every day. And so I want 754 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,720 Speaker 1: to be asking questions like what systems worked to fail 755 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 1: Gabby and all the other missing and murdered women and 756 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 1: girls out there, Like how are we supporting victims and 757 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,279 Speaker 1: survivors of domestic abuse and violence? How are we making 758 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:19,160 Speaker 1: sure that they're protected and actually do have support. Are 759 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,480 Speaker 1: we creating a climate that leads to folks like this 760 00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:24,839 Speaker 1: to be more vulnerable in these kinds of situations, Like 761 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 1: I want to know what systems failed these victims and 762 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,000 Speaker 1: survivors of violence and crime so that it's not repeated 763 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,720 Speaker 1: and we can actually learn something to make systemic change 764 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:37,360 Speaker 1: that leads to less tragedy and less harm over all, exactly. 765 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,399 Speaker 1: And I think another aspect from the racial issue that 766 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:43,239 Speaker 1: I think doesn't get highlighted enough, um at least in 767 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:45,880 Speaker 1: the white spaces that I tend to find myself in 768 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 1: a lot, is that, uh, content creators that tend to 769 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 1: have an incredibly heavy focus on white victims is something 770 00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:58,000 Speaker 1: that needs to be seriously reevaluated, especially when we're talking 771 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,719 Speaker 1: about like national news coverage. I know that a lot 772 00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:02,840 Speaker 1: of people will make the argument that in gabby situation, 773 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:04,799 Speaker 1: she was a social media influencer, so that had a 774 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,120 Speaker 1: bit of an effect on how discussed her situation was, 775 00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:11,800 Speaker 1: but we cannot ignore the fact that people of color, 776 00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,800 Speaker 1: men or LGBT individuals do not get this kind of coverage, 777 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:18,279 Speaker 1: People who aren't conventionally attractive do not give this kind 778 00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:22,040 Speaker 1: of coverage, and podcasts that go out of their way 779 00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:25,760 Speaker 1: to highlight instances like that, or just not necessarily podcast, 780 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,040 Speaker 1: but content in general that goes out of the way 781 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,760 Speaker 1: to highlight those who are less likely to get coverage 782 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:32,480 Speaker 1: in the first place. I hate to say it, but 783 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,239 Speaker 1: just about everybody knows about Jeffrey Dahmer, every just about 784 00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:36,880 Speaker 1: everybody knows about Ted Bundy. They might not know the 785 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,920 Speaker 1: finer specifics. But is it necessarily worth your time to 786 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:43,719 Speaker 1: go into that kind of content over a ten part 787 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,760 Speaker 1: series when you could be spending that time possibly talking 788 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,560 Speaker 1: about an active missing person who could really use a 789 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:53,879 Speaker 1: bolster invoice and a fresh reminder to their local place 790 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,640 Speaker 1: department that people still care and people are still watching, 791 00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:00,000 Speaker 1: and just giving the facts of what's up, making sure 792 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:01,760 Speaker 1: of people are where like hey, this is the individual, 793 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:03,600 Speaker 1: looks like this is where they were last seen. Would 794 00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:05,759 Speaker 1: be really awesome if people didn't forget that this is 795 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 1: still a problem because those marginalized individuals never get that 796 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:13,439 Speaker 1: kind of attention. Oh absolutely, And actually, you know, I've 797 00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:19,000 Speaker 1: seen recently folks making that criticism of the Gabby Potito case, 798 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:21,040 Speaker 1: and so I've seen a lot of true crime contact 799 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:25,160 Speaker 1: creators sort of I will I will say, like trying 800 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:28,680 Speaker 1: to respond to that. So they'll they'll be talking about 801 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,640 Speaker 1: Gabby's case and then be like, Oh, that's similar to 802 00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:34,520 Speaker 1: this other case but then involved a person of color 803 00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:36,640 Speaker 1: or a you know, a non white victim or an 804 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:40,680 Speaker 1: LGBTQ person, and I I'm I'm here for it, Like 805 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:42,680 Speaker 1: I like, if you have a platform and that you 806 00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:45,560 Speaker 1: can use to get the word out about these cases 807 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:47,920 Speaker 1: that are not getting as much attention, I think that's great. 808 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,880 Speaker 1: But I can't help but wonder, like why weren't we 809 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 1: doing it all along? Like why did it take that 810 00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:56,160 Speaker 1: nudge of like you know, there are there were seven 811 00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:59,880 Speaker 1: hundred and ten you know, missing and missing and murdered 812 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,040 Speaker 1: Indigenous women and girls in that same area talk about 813 00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:05,840 Speaker 1: them as well. Like I'm happy that folks are boosting 814 00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:08,319 Speaker 1: this because I think I think, you know, it could 815 00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:11,600 Speaker 1: it could really like revive interest, you know, But I 816 00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:13,800 Speaker 1: just have to ask, like why did it Perhaps we 817 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,799 Speaker 1: should be interrogating why it took a nudge? Why it 818 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:21,040 Speaker 1: took that that kind of that kind of line being 819 00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:22,960 Speaker 1: sort of like in the consciousness of how we how 820 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:26,040 Speaker 1: we're talking about this case to make that to have 821 00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:30,280 Speaker 1: folks that are making true prime content start generating awareness 822 00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:33,799 Speaker 1: about these other kinds of cases exactly. And I do 823 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:38,320 Speaker 1: very pessimistically, kind of fully expect that once the coverage 824 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,279 Speaker 1: of Gabby kind of dies down, that this conversation might die. 825 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:45,040 Speaker 1: And anybody who's willing to keep that conversation going and 826 00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:47,560 Speaker 1: not letting people forget well, I think that is the 827 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:52,160 Speaker 1: biggest uphill battle. I think is absolutely noble. Like I 828 00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:55,480 Speaker 1: hate that, uh a woman had to be put in 829 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,000 Speaker 1: that situation and had to get the national coverage she 830 00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,520 Speaker 1: did to get people to talk about it again. Um, 831 00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:02,560 Speaker 1: But there have been people of color talking about this 832 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,480 Speaker 1: the whole time, and nobody was ever listening to them. 833 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,480 Speaker 1: And it's so frustrating that the only time they get 834 00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,200 Speaker 1: the microphone, even if it's for a short period of time, 835 00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:15,959 Speaker 1: is when something tragic and horrific happens to a white 836 00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:20,120 Speaker 1: woman like nobody nobody deserves to happen. Nobody deserves to 837 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:23,600 Speaker 1: have happened to them what happened to Gabby, um. And 838 00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,080 Speaker 1: it's frustrating that the consequence of that is this is 839 00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:27,920 Speaker 1: the only time that people who have been focusing on 840 00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:30,240 Speaker 1: that issue this whole time finally get to speak because 841 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,719 Speaker 1: they will be immediately shot down as a why are 842 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,759 Speaker 1: you making this about race? And it's like I, it's 843 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,560 Speaker 1: It's been about race this whole time. I've been talking 844 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,400 Speaker 1: about this whole time. A white woman passing away tragically 845 00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:44,840 Speaker 1: doesn't change what I've been saying. Jessica, I thank you 846 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,280 Speaker 1: so much for your work and your perspective. Like I 847 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,359 Speaker 1: wasn't really sure what to expect from our conversation because 848 00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:53,440 Speaker 1: I just had a lot of thoughts and like feelings 849 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:57,120 Speaker 1: and having trouble this even like processing them. But you know, 850 00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,080 Speaker 1: I find that your work really helps me articulate my 851 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:04,200 Speaker 1: own thoughts and helps me process, you know, in highly 852 00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:07,040 Speaker 1: charged times, helps me like process and reconnect to like 853 00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:09,680 Speaker 1: what I'm actually thinking. So thank you for your work. 854 00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,360 Speaker 1: Where can folks follow you? And what are you working 855 00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,400 Speaker 1: on these days? So right now I have a Hodge 856 00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:18,240 Speaker 1: Project content. I still do make a lot of trafficking 857 00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:20,360 Speaker 1: awareness videos, and I talked a lot about the tracking 858 00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:24,240 Speaker 1: misinformation that is on my TikTok at blood bath and beyond, 859 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:27,120 Speaker 1: and then that is my handle on all other socials. 860 00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:33,880 Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or 861 00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:35,759 Speaker 1: just want to say hi, You can be us at 862 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:38,520 Speaker 1: Hello at tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts 863 00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,000 Speaker 1: for today's episode at tangodi dot com. There Are No 864 00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:43,120 Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod. 865 00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:45,720 Speaker 1: It's a production of I Heart Radio and Unboss creative 866 00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:49,560 Speaker 1: Jonathan Strictland as our executive producer, Tara Harrison as our producer, 867 00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,080 Speaker 1: and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm 868 00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:55,960 Speaker 1: your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, 869 00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:59,320 Speaker 1: rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts 870 00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:01,040 Speaker 1: from my Heart Radio, check out the I Heart Made 871 00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:03,400 Speaker 1: You app Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. 872 00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:11,160 Speaker 1: M