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Speaker 1: Welcome back, everybody, to Behind the Bastards, a podcast about

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Speaker 1: the very worst people in all of history. And we've

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Speaker 1: all had a heavy year, both in the real world

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Speaker 1: and in terms of subjects on this podcast. We got

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Speaker 1: the year started with, God, a lot of child abuse,

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Speaker 1: way more than I tend to stack at the start

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Speaker 1: of a year in a normal content podcast. schedule. And

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Speaker 1: then the last few weeks have been genocide after genocide.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I guess just two, but that's a lot

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Speaker 1: of genocides. So I figured, let's have something fun this week.

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Speaker 1: So we're going to talk about a piece of shit,

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Speaker 1: but we're going to have a good time doing it.

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Speaker 1: This is not going to be like heartbreakingly depressing, except

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Speaker 1: for at a couple of points, but not in the

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Speaker 1: mass murder way, just in the, oh, wow, that's a

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Speaker 1: bummer kind of way. Anyway, I've teased the episodes enough.

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Speaker 1: Let me tease our guest, Kristen Conger, host of Unladylike

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Speaker 1: and Conspiracy, she wrote. Welcome to the show. Thank you

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Speaker 1: for coming. How are you doing?

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Speaker 2: I'm so thrilled to be here, and I'm great.

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Speaker 3: I was emotionally prepared to be just pummeled, but I'm

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Speaker 3: glad to hear we're going to be having some laughs,

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Speaker 3: it sounds like. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about two old-timey archaeologists who sucked

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Speaker 1: and destroyed a shitload of historical artifacts by being greedy idiots,

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Speaker 1: but are funny. It's old-timey, guys. 1800s Europeans rampaging around

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Speaker 1: historical sites. It's going to be a good time. No

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Speaker 1: kids are going to get mass murdered. I mean, some

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Speaker 1: workers die of malaria, but when isn't that happening, right? Yeah.

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Speaker 1: No one's to blame for malaria other than mosquitoes.

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Speaker 4: Is the theme of this episode Men Stupid? We laugh

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Speaker 4: at them?

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Speaker 1: No, I mean, our episodes are mostly about one specific guy,

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Speaker 1: Heinrich Schliemann, who destroyed Troy, like the ruins of Troy

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Speaker 1: he accidentally destroyed as he was trying to find them.

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Speaker 1: But we're also going to talk about an Italian guy

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Speaker 1: who destroyed some other stuff as like a little bit

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Speaker 1: of an amuse-bouche. So I've got a fun one for you, Kristen.

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Speaker 1: Do you got anything else you want to plug or

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Speaker 1: say about yourself before we go in?

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Speaker 3: No, I love to laugh at absurd archaeologists. This sounds fantastic.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I think I'm ready.

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Speaker 1: This will be heartbreaking for the archaeologists in the audience,

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Speaker 1: but I think everyone else will have a good time. So,

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Speaker 1: archaeology has not existed quite as long as civilization, but

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Speaker 1: as soon as we've had civilization long enough for any

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Speaker 1: of them to fall into ruin, there were people that

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Speaker 1: we could rightly call precursors to modern archaeologists and historians.

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Speaker 1: The best evidence for this is the fact that in

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Speaker 1: ancient Egypt, there were ancient Egyptian museums and Egyptologists who

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Speaker 1: studied ancient Egypt because Egypt is that old that like

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Speaker 1: 3000 years ago, there's guys in Egypt who are studying

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Speaker 1: ancient Egypt because it just it just keeps going back. Right.

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Speaker 2: Got some ancient Egyptian docents.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Like the first docents would have been

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Speaker 1: ancient Egyptians puzzling over artifacts from ancient Egyptians being like,

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Speaker 1: how the fuck did they do that? They couldn't have

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Speaker 1: built these ziggurats on their own. It must have been aliens.

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Speaker 1: I don't think they were as stupid as we are, actually.

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Speaker 1: The most famous of these guys is probably Chaim Vizit,

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Speaker 1: who was the fourth son of Pharaoh Ramses II. And

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Speaker 1: he devoted a great deal of energy and public funding

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Speaker 1: to restoring ancient monuments. And there's quite a lot we

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Speaker 1: only know about ancient Egypt because Chaim Watzit was interested

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Speaker 1: in it and preserved it, right? Stuff that would have

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Speaker 1: happened centuries or even a thousand years or something like

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Speaker 1: that before his time. So that's pretty cool, I think.

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Speaker 1: Modern archaeology, though, dates back to about the Renaissance, right?

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Speaker 1: That's kind of when Western people started really thinking about like, oh,

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Speaker 1: there's like a lot of old shit around us. Maybe

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Speaker 1: we shouldn't just steal everything from it to build houses.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps some of this should be preserved. You know, maybe

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Speaker 1: we have enough stone that we can leave the Parthenon

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Speaker 1: intact or whatever. And there's this kind of European revival

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Speaker 1: of interest in classic antiquity, particularly ancient Rome. Michelangelo, the artist,

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Speaker 1: not the Ninja Turtle, observed excavations of old Roman ruins,

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Speaker 1: and so did a number of other notable men from

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Speaker 1: that period of time. The ruins of Pompeii were discovered

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Speaker 1: by the architect Domenico Fontana at the end of the

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Speaker 1: 16th century, and Herculaneum followed it around 1709, and there

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Speaker 1: were organized excavations in like the mid-1700s for both cities.

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Speaker 1: So they were digging up before the U.S., declared its independence.

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Speaker 1: They were digging up Pompeii, right? That's about how old, like,

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Speaker 1: something we recognize as modern archaeology kind of goes back.

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Speaker 2: That is wild. That's not when I thought the modern

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Speaker 2: period would begin.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's way, way earlier than I assumed.

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Speaker 1: And that's important... When we're talking about the vandals that

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Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about, some people are like, well,

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Speaker 1: everyone was that way back then. Nobody thought about preserving stuff.

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Speaker 1: And no, there were guys who were like, you've got

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Speaker 1: to be really careful. You don't want to just dig

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Speaker 1: through and tear up a bunch of shit. You have

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Speaker 1: to take careful notes about where everything was. People had

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Speaker 1: already figured that out by the time the 1700s were

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Speaker 1: well underway. And that's kind of the era... We wind

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Speaker 1: up back here a lot because it's the era of

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Speaker 1: a lot of bastards, but the time of gentleman scientists

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Speaker 1: and adventurers. When it was like, if you're born with

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Speaker 1: enough money that you don't have to work, then you're

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Speaker 1: a scientist or an adventurer if you want to, right?

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Speaker 1: And some of those guys did great things, and some

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Speaker 1: of them became Francis Galton and invented racism. So, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's a real mixed bag. But it becomes really hip

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Speaker 1: in the mid to late 1700s to like dig up

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Speaker 1: old things, particularly ancient Egypt, again, comes into vogue. And

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Speaker 1: through the 1800s, the Victorian era too, like ancient Egypt

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Speaker 1: is like cool and sexy. So if you're like a

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Speaker 1: rich person from like a prominent family, you might get

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Speaker 1: into archaeology, you know, either doing it yourself or funding digs,

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Speaker 1: both to get access to some sweet artifacts to show off.

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Speaker 1: And just because it's like the cool thing to be

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Speaker 1: seen doing, supporting archaeology. And this could get, this was

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Speaker 1: not always, there were people who were careful curators of

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Speaker 1: the past, and there were people who were just tearing

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Speaker 1: through shit to get as many mummies as they could, right?

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Speaker 1: I mean, people were like grinding up mummies to take

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Speaker 1: as medicine.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 1: So not everybody was nice about it, right? Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: A lot of mummies wind up in people's stomachs.

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Speaker 4: I don't like that. I don't like that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: That made me queasy. I don't like that.

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Speaker 1: I would eat mummy. You guys wouldn't eat a mummy? No.

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Speaker 2: I think RFK has recommended mummy pills.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, every American needs at least four ounces of mummy

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Speaker 1: per day.

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Speaker 2: It's a new flu vaccine, actually.

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Speaker 1: We could try it. I mean, if it was a

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Speaker 1: smallpox mummy, it might work. Don't, that's probably not medically true,

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Speaker 1: but it could be. So anyway, into this kind of

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Speaker 1: world of both careful excavation and frenzied, possessive speculation and

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Speaker 1: fascination with the past. In 1797, a man is born

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Speaker 1: named Giuseppe Ferlini in Bologna, which is at the time,

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Speaker 1: I mean, today it's part of Italy, right? At the time,

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Speaker 1: Italy's like a peninsula, but it's not a country. There's

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Speaker 1: a bunch of city-states who are always like up in

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Speaker 1: each other's business, but it's not like anything like the

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Speaker 1: modern nation today. And Giuseppe isn't, again, our main bastard

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Speaker 1: for these episodes because there's just not enough about him

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Speaker 1: on his own, but I love this old bastard too

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Speaker 1: much to not tell you about how he, the destruction

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Speaker 1: he wrought on ancient Egyptian artifacts.

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Speaker 4: And frankly, you weren't going to pass up an Italian.

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Speaker 1: Not a Giuseppe. Not a Giuseppe.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 1: I can't, like, I have to do this as I

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Speaker 1: say Giuseppe, right? It's just like happening off screen, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you can't see it. So we don't know much

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Speaker 1: about his early life. Born in 1797, right? He had

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Speaker 1: a stepmother and the relationship was so bad it forced

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Speaker 1: him to flee home as a young man. Every source

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Speaker 1: about him says that and that it was intolerable. The

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Speaker 1: situation couldn't continue.

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Speaker 2: Giuseppe, no.

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Giuseppe, no, come home. I don't think she wanted

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Speaker 1: him home. He would have been around 18 years old

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Speaker 1: at most when he leaves. And he probably studies medicine.

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Speaker 1: He becomes a doctor later. So he says he studies

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Speaker 1: medicine during this period. It's the early 1800s. So who knows, right?

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Speaker 3: Like.

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Speaker 1: You're not having to pass an exam to get into

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Speaker 1: medical school. Sometimes you can become a doctor just by

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Speaker 1: convincing another doctor to let you follow him around. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: you just start cutting off limbs and saying, yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: a doctor, right? We don't really know which kind Giuseppe is.

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Speaker 1: It's more or less impossible. But he spends some years

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Speaker 1: traveling around, looking for work. He goes to Venice. He

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Speaker 1: goes to Corfu. And at some point, probably while he's

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Speaker 1: in his early 20s, he starts calling himself a doctor.

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Speaker 1: And nobody really is asking questions at this time. So

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Speaker 1: he gets to work as a doctor. So by 1817,

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Speaker 1: aged 20, he's in Albania doing God knows what. Now,

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Speaker 1: the country was occupied by the Ottoman Empire at that point,

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Speaker 1: and Albanians were none too happy about that state of affairs.

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Speaker 1: So a rebellion is launched, and then a rebel army

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Speaker 1: is formed. And the nice thing about a rebel army,

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Speaker 1: they do not ask for your CV. If they're like, hey,

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Speaker 1: we need doctors for this army, and you just show

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Speaker 1: up and say, yeah, that's me, Giuseppe, hey. You can

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Speaker 1: just become the army doctor. Suddenly you have thousands of

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Speaker 1: lives potentially in your hands. Wow. And that's what happens.

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Speaker 1: That's how Giuseppe gets his job. Unfortunately, the rebellions don't

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Speaker 1: work very well. This is like a big Greek. kind

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Speaker 1: of pan-Greek Balkan series of rebellions against the Ottomans. And

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Speaker 1: it doesn't work. But Giuseppe gets a few years of

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Speaker 1: being paid to probably he's mostly just sawing off limbs, right?

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Speaker 1: Like that's a lot of military doctoring is like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you got shot. I'm just going to cut off whatever

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Speaker 1: got hit. Which, I mean, I feel like I could

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Speaker 1: have been a doctor back then. I still feel like

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Speaker 1: I could be that kind of doctor. I don't. I'm

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Speaker 1: pretty good with it. I'm good at sawing off stuff, Sophie.

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Speaker 1: It's not that hard.

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Speaker 4: I've seen you cut meat.

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Speaker 2: I've deboned a chicken. I think I'm qualified.

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Speaker 1: People are a lot like chickens, you know, biologically.

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Speaker 4: I'd let Kristen be a doctor.

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Speaker 1: Robert, no.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: You know what? We just, we need like two or

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Speaker 1: three people who need limbs chopped off and whoever goes

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Speaker 1: fastest gets to be the doctor.

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Speaker 4: I once saw you eat back to back, one, the

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Speaker 4: largest fish I've ever seen.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: And then the next day, a tomahawk steak. You cannot

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Speaker 4: be my doctor.

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Speaker 1: You're not chopping me, buddy. So I've got it right here.

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Speaker 1: Like we could, that'll remove a gunshot limb easy. Oh, sure. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's a medical cleaver.

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Speaker 2: You don't even have to sanitize it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no. They didn't know about sanitizing back then. That

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Speaker 1: fish was the size.

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Speaker 4: Of like my, that fish was giant.

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Speaker 1: It was delicious. It was great. It was delicious. It

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Speaker 1: was a great fish. So the war does not go

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Speaker 1: well for Giuseppe and his Greek rebels. And he decides

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Speaker 1: to piece the fuck out of Greece and head to

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Speaker 1: Egypt because he wants to get rich. And he knows

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Speaker 1: that there's a lot of gold buried all over Egypt. Uh,

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Speaker 1: people are stealing artifacts from ancient Egyptian sites and selling

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Speaker 1: them at this point in time. And he wants to

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Speaker 1: do that. Um, the new sultan, like the way he's,

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Speaker 1: the kind of job that initially gets in there is

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Speaker 1: the sultan that he had just been fighting against is

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Speaker 1: modernizing the Ottoman army and wants European doctors for his military.

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Speaker 1: And Giuseppe's like, close enough, you know? Like, ah, that's

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Speaker 1: basically a me. And yeah, he winds up working for

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Speaker 1: the guys he'd just been fighting. As Kashuk Padaweri writes, quote,

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Speaker 1: in 1829, the Italian landed in Alexandria and had once

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Speaker 1: headed for Cairo. One of the things the governor wanted

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Speaker 1: to improve was the army, and that included a more

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Speaker 1: efficient military healthcare. So Ferlini enlisted as an assistant, and

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Speaker 1: the following year he was already the head doctor of

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Speaker 1: an infantry battalion. As such, he accompanied the 1st Regiment

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Speaker 1: on its march to Sinar, the capital of the Sultanate

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Speaker 1: of the same name, where the corps had been assigned.

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Speaker 1: Sinar was located in southeastern Sudan, on the banks of

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Speaker 1: the Blue Nile, as Mehmed Ali's campaigns extended the borders

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Speaker 1: to Ethiopia. And so he spends more than five months

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Speaker 1: doing this. He visits Khartoum, he visits Wadi Halfa, Um,

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Speaker 1: and he sees a bunch of different like archeological sites, right?

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Speaker 1: There's all of these ruins of ancient civilizations. He's in

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Speaker 1: like Khartoum isn't in ancient Egypt today, but at the time,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's part of, I think Sudan today. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and I always has been, but it was like a

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Speaker 1: polity within the Egyptian, like sphere of influence for a

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Speaker 1: long time. And then obviously during the Ottoman era, it's

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Speaker 1: part of the Ottoman empire, but there's all these ruins

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Speaker 1: there and he keeps seeing them. And it just keeps

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Speaker 1: kind of like tweaking this part of his brain. That's like,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of money. buried in the sand here

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Speaker 1: that someone i should just be able to take it

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Speaker 1: from these people who who currently own it and bring

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Speaker 1: it back to europe to get rich um giuseppe has

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Speaker 1: what's referred to by as a dark period uh in

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Speaker 1: pashawari's uh article uh he marries an ethiopian slave i

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Speaker 1: don't i don't know if we'd really call that a

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Speaker 1: marriage They have a child together and then the child dies.

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Speaker 1: He has a malaria epidemic that he has to treat

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Speaker 1: like while helping to run a hospital and just a

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Speaker 1: horrible situation. And by the time of this period, like

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Speaker 1: number one, he is done doing medical stuff like he

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Speaker 1: has helped like lead a hospital through a malaria epidemic,

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Speaker 1: which I imagine is just mostly burying corpses and waiting

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Speaker 1: to die yourself. Like it's just has to have been

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Speaker 1: a hellish nightmare. So at the end of this, he's

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Speaker 1: achieved some level of clout with the governor. And he's

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Speaker 1: also like, I'm fucking done doing this doctor shit. And

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Speaker 1: so he convinces the governor to go with him and

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Speaker 1: on an expedition through Nubia to try to find gold, right?

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Speaker 1: This guy in office, he's like, hey, there's got to

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Speaker 1: be gold in some of these ruins. Let's go fucking

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Speaker 1: look for it. And they don't find any, right? I

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Speaker 1: started this episode by making a point about the absolute

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Speaker 1: antiquity of ancient Egypt, and that means that generations of

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Speaker 1: treasure hunters had been combing through this stuff for thousands

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Speaker 1: of years before Giuseppe and this governor start looking for it, right?

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Speaker 1: So they don't, there's not a whole lot that they're,

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Speaker 1: that's just, it's not easy to find good stuff, even

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Speaker 1: in like the early 1800s. Now, obviously, we know that

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Speaker 1: there are still great finds to be made. King Tut's

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Speaker 1: tomb is still buried at this point in time, but

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Speaker 1: A dilettante like Giuseppe, with no relevant skill, isn't searching

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Speaker 1: for anything like that. He wants the low-hanging fruit. And

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Speaker 1: he starts hearing rumors about a smaller set of pyramids, right,

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Speaker 1: located in a different part of, like, this area. Not, like,

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Speaker 1: in Egypt proper, but in a place called Meroe. It's

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Speaker 1: part of the Meroetic Kingdom, which is an ancient kingdom.

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Speaker 1: It's one of the latter kind of Egyptian successor civilizations.

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Speaker 1: It's located to the south of Ptolemaic Egypt. And the

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Speaker 1: pyramids of Moreau were mostly built from around 300 BC

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Speaker 1: to 350 AD. These are very recent pyramids, right? Moreau

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Speaker 1: outlasted Rome's invasion and conquest of Egypt and remained independent

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Speaker 1: for quite some time after that. The Merodic Kingdom was

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Speaker 1: ultimately brought down by Ethiopian invaders. And that whole mess

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Speaker 1: gave us the Coptic language, which is a part of

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Speaker 1: why we were able to translate the Rosetta Stone. But

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Speaker 1: so you've got like 100 or so of these little pyramids.

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Speaker 1: They're like the biggest ones are maybe 90 to 100

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Speaker 1: feet tall. So they're not the size of the ones

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Speaker 1: outside of Cairo. But there's a bunch of them. And

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Speaker 1: they haven't been picked over quite as much as the

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Speaker 1: sexier pyramids, right? Like, You don't want to go to

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Speaker 1: the pyramids everybody knows because they've been they've been coming

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Speaker 1: through that shit for a while. You want an off

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Speaker 1: the beaten path pyramid. Right.

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Speaker 4: Kristen, are you ever like, wow, pyramid sexy?

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Like, oh, the hipster pyramid.

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Speaker 3: OK, that's really undiscovered, kind of under the radar. I love, though,

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Speaker 3: that this is his get rich quick.

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Speaker 1: Scheme oh yeah pyramid digging yeah there were not a

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Speaker 1: lot of better options back in the day you couldn't

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Speaker 1: just become an influencer and hope to get rich you

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Speaker 1: know you had to you had to dig through the

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Speaker 1: dirt and and risk malaria it was a harder era

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Speaker 1: for that sort of thing um So Giuseppe gets it

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Speaker 1: through his head that previous generations of grave robbers had

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Speaker 1: probably been less thorough in Moreau than at the more

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Speaker 1: famous sites. And he puts together an expedition with an

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Speaker 1: Albanian businessman that he'd met during his doctor days, this

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Speaker 1: guy Antonio Stefani. And Stefani has money. So he agrees,

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Speaker 1: I'll pay for the equipment and the workers. And some

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Speaker 1: of these workers are slaves. They are buying slaves and

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Speaker 1: also just like hiring slaves other people own. That's a

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Speaker 1: pretty normal way to work in this period of time

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Speaker 1: in the area. And Stefani and Giuseppe decide to split

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Speaker 1: the profits of anything they find 50-50, right? So they

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Speaker 1: leave for Moreau in August of 1834. Pataweri writes, quote,

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Speaker 1: Then they also failed with some sand covered ruins where

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Speaker 1: they found a large obelisk decorated with hieroglyphs, but which

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Speaker 1: due to its enormous dimensions, they had to leave. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: diseases began to take their toll on workers and animals

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Speaker 1: and Giuseppe. He's not killing anybody, but people are dying

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Speaker 1: for his dream pretty much every week. They're losing. Like

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Speaker 1: that's just the way digging here. If you take a

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Speaker 1: couple hundred men to dig with you, at least five

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Speaker 1: or 10 are going to die of disease in the

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Speaker 1: process of like digging out there. Um, You just had

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Speaker 1: to kind of know when you signed on to do

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Speaker 1: a job away from home. Okay, might be the last

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Speaker 1: time you see me. Like, bye, guys.

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Speaker 2: But I'm going with a doctor, so I'll be fine, right?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he can cut off any limbs I need cut off,

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Speaker 1: you know? That's basically universal healthcare in 18 fucking dot.

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Speaker 1: So frustrated by the lack of progress, Giuseppe made an

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Speaker 1: executive decision to switch their focus. they'd been digging kind of,

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Speaker 1: you know, in places around here, the Pyramids of Moreau, like,

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Speaker 1: and they decide to head to the most famous of them, right?

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Speaker 1: Because they'd kind of been fucking around some of the

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Speaker 1: lesser sites. And the most famous of the Pyramids of

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Speaker 1: Moreau had been discovered a decade or so earlier by

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Speaker 1: a Frenchman. And it was called the Great Pyramid of

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Speaker 1: Queen Amanishaketo. Amanishaketo? And that you can see if you're

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Speaker 1: looking on the Netflix, you can see like an illustration

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Speaker 1: of how it looked When Giuseppe arrived, and it's a,

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Speaker 1: it's a tall kind of thin pyramid, again, probably would

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Speaker 1: have been maybe 90 to 100 feet tall. And there's

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Speaker 1: this like smaller squarish building out in front of it,

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Speaker 1: but it looked like a fairly intact set of ruins, right?

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Speaker 1: Like that's a, that's a healthy looking pyramid.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And you should feel some foreboding at this point, because

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Speaker 1: the reason I'm not showing you, I don't have like

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Speaker 1: a modern day picture of the pyramid intact to show you,

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Speaker 1: is what Giuseppe is going to do as soon as

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Speaker 1: he shows up there.

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Speaker 3: Oh, fuck.

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Speaker 4: Okay.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So he spends some time picking around the site

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Speaker 1: and some other pyramids in the site. And, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think that if you know anything about archaeology, and

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Speaker 1: Giuseppe really doesn't, it would have been clear, if you

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Speaker 1: wanted to get anything out of this, it's going to

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Speaker 1: take years of careful research. You know, like painstaking digging

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Speaker 1: and sorting to like gradually make progress at collecting and

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Speaker 1: figuring out what's there. And Giuseppe doesn't have time for that.

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Speaker 1: So he decides, I'm just going to hire a small

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Speaker 1: army and ransack this fucking pyramid. So he hires 500

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Speaker 1: or so impoverished workers and he has them start systematically

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Speaker 1: fucking up like this pyramid.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: There are speculation that he used gunpowder to blow the

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Speaker 1: top off of this queen's pyramid. Giuseppe doesn't mention that

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Speaker 1: in his own notes, but on his blog, Roger Pierce,

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Speaker 1: who translated some of his writing, suspects that he may

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Speaker 1: have left the gunpowder thing out of his notes out

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Speaker 1: of shame. What matters is that by the time he

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Speaker 1: and his workers are done, that lovely pyramid I just

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Speaker 1: showed you an illustration of looks like like this. And again,

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Speaker 1: if you can't see the video, it's just gone. That

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Speaker 1: little square building is intact and 80% of the pyramid's gone.

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Speaker 1: They just ripped the top off of it. So in

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Speaker 1: a Journal of the American Research Center in Egypt article,

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Speaker 1: Yvonne Markowitz and Peter Lacovara speculate that one of three

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Speaker 1: things happened when Giuseppe and his partner busted into this pyramid,

401
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Speaker 1: starting at the top and going down, right? Because they're like,

402
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Speaker 1: they're blowing through it, basically. And Giuseppe, he doesn't say

403
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Speaker 1: they dynamited it. He says that they found a secret

404
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Speaker 1: hidden burial chamber at the top of the pyramid, right?

405
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Speaker 1: And that they had to dig away and remove all

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Speaker 1: of that to get to the treasures inside it, because

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Speaker 1: they do find treasure. Now, none of these pyramids, and

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Speaker 1: there's a hundred something Baroque pyramids, none of them have

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Speaker 1: chambers like that at the top. This would have been

410
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Speaker 1: the only one that had a chamber like that if

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Speaker 1: it had a chamber like that, because as a spoiler,

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Speaker 1: that's not true. Giuseppe finds all this stuff buried elsewhere

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Speaker 1: after they've like blown the top off of this pyramid.

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Speaker 1: He just lies about having found it in the top

415
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Speaker 1: to justify why he destroyed this thing, because otherwise he

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Speaker 1: kind of seems like an asshole.

417
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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: But wherever they find it, they do find the well-preserved

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Speaker 1: mummy of Queen Amanisha Keto. And they find a bunch

420
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Speaker 1: of gold and jewels and gems. They find the motherlode.

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Speaker 1: It's searching for Egyptian treasure. Like, it's everything you could

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Speaker 1: hope for. It's a huge find. In that article, Lacovara

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Speaker 1: and Markowitz write, And he's not worried about bandits. He's

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Speaker 1: worried about his own workers. He's worried they're going to

425
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Speaker 1: want him to share the gold that they found. They've

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Speaker 1: been dying in the desert. So they want some of that.

427
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,540
Speaker 1: And he is not a sharing guy, right? That's not

428
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:47,480
Speaker 1: why Giuseppe blew up a pyramid. You don't blow up

429
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:48,659
Speaker 1: a pyramid to share.

430
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:53,320
Speaker 5: But Robert, you know who didn't blow up a pyramid?

431
00:21:53,940 --> 00:21:57,240
Speaker 1: We cannot prove that. And I, Sophie, I gotta be

432
00:21:57,260 --> 00:21:59,420
Speaker 1: honest with you. I have done something to a pyramid

433
00:21:59,460 --> 00:22:01,300
Speaker 1: that I can't talk about on air. And that's all

434
00:22:01,340 --> 00:22:11,010
Speaker 1: I'll say. Here's some ads. And we're back. That wasn't

435
00:22:11,050 --> 00:22:14,229
Speaker 1: a joke. Anyway, I guess we'll return to the episode.

436
00:22:14,730 --> 00:22:17,649
Speaker 1: So they start unearthing a bunch of relics around the

437
00:22:17,670 --> 00:22:19,910
Speaker 1: base of this pyramid under the ruin of a masonry

438
00:22:19,950 --> 00:22:22,470
Speaker 1: wall and worried that the locals are catching up. Giuseppe

439
00:22:22,510 --> 00:22:25,210
Speaker 1: dismisses the bulk of the crew he's hired to ransack

440
00:22:25,230 --> 00:22:28,480
Speaker 1: this ancient burial ground. And yet, per that article, quote,

441
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,140
Speaker 1: about a week later, the workmen, sensing an important find

442
00:22:31,180 --> 00:22:33,920
Speaker 1: had been made, returned with weapons, determined to receive just

443
00:22:33,980 --> 00:22:36,640
Speaker 1: payment for a share of the treasure. So they armed themselves.

444
00:22:36,660 --> 00:22:38,780
Speaker 1: It was never good when the workmen returned with weapons.

445
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,139
Speaker 5: That's true today, too.

446
00:22:41,330 --> 00:22:42,770
Speaker 2: Support the workmen, yeah.

447
00:22:43,369 --> 00:22:44,070
Speaker 1: For the workmen.

448
00:22:44,290 --> 00:22:45,810
Speaker 2: Labor, labor.

449
00:22:47,150 --> 00:22:49,890
Speaker 1: That may not be true, because it would be really

450
00:22:49,930 --> 00:22:54,649
Speaker 1: convenient for Giuseppe if an army of, like, armed, dangerous

451
00:22:54,730 --> 00:22:58,160
Speaker 1: local Egyptians showed up and forced him to flee because

452
00:22:58,180 --> 00:23:00,419
Speaker 1: that gives him a justification for just taking all of

453
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,820
Speaker 1: the booty and running and not preserving the mummy because

454
00:23:02,859 --> 00:23:05,820
Speaker 1: he finds this queen's mummy and destroys it, ripping off

455
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 1: all the jewelry, right?

456
00:23:07,020 --> 00:23:08,179
Speaker 4: That's fucking rude, bro.

457
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, just a ruined mummy. And he doesn't document the

458
00:23:11,500 --> 00:23:14,630
Speaker 1: site in any meaningful way. As any archaeologist knows, Even

459
00:23:14,670 --> 00:23:16,679
Speaker 1: if it doesn't matter how shiny and cool looking it is,

460
00:23:16,740 --> 00:23:19,220
Speaker 1: if you remove an artifact from its original context and

461
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 1: don't document that in any way, then you've lost a

462
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,400
Speaker 1: huge portion of the historical value that it has.

463
00:23:24,540 --> 00:23:24,740
Speaker 3: Right.

464
00:23:24,940 --> 00:23:26,680
Speaker 1: Because you don't know where the fuck it came from.

465
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,060
Speaker 1: And Giuseppe, he finds most of the treasure that he

466
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,770
Speaker 1: finds in this one dig. But he's also like buying

467
00:23:32,869 --> 00:23:36,189
Speaker 1: shit like artifacts while he's in Giuseppe. like the area.

468
00:23:36,290 --> 00:23:38,210
Speaker 1: And he just is including them all in this hall.

469
00:23:38,230 --> 00:23:40,369
Speaker 1: So he's throwing a bunch of shit from like ancient

470
00:23:40,430 --> 00:23:43,609
Speaker 1: Rome and other parts of Egypt together and just saying

471
00:23:43,650 --> 00:23:45,630
Speaker 1: it's all part of one big hall because he doesn't

472
00:23:45,690 --> 00:23:48,609
Speaker 1: give a fuck. It's just on an archaeological level, it's

473
00:23:48,630 --> 00:23:54,850
Speaker 1: a disaster, right? Like it's really fucked up. But claiming

474
00:23:54,869 --> 00:23:56,889
Speaker 1: that these workers had showed up with weapons gives him

475
00:23:56,930 --> 00:23:59,149
Speaker 1: an excuse, right? Well, they were going to steal and

476
00:23:59,190 --> 00:24:01,469
Speaker 1: probably melt it all down. These savages, they would have

477
00:24:01,570 --> 00:24:04,630
Speaker 1: ruined all of the gold. So I had to grab everything,

478
00:24:04,670 --> 00:24:07,350
Speaker 1: throw it into bags, and run like fuck back to Europe, right?

479
00:24:08,869 --> 00:24:11,130
Speaker 1: And he does damage a bunch of these relics. He

480
00:24:11,590 --> 00:24:13,890
Speaker 1: rips them off so hastily that something like the clasps

481
00:24:14,190 --> 00:24:17,290
Speaker 1: are broken, gems fall off and stuff. And then he

482
00:24:17,330 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 1: bounces back to Europe to auction all this shit off

483
00:24:19,780 --> 00:24:23,719
Speaker 1: in 1837. Now, he's got a shitload of gold. This

484
00:24:23,780 --> 00:24:27,859
Speaker 1: is undeniably the equivalent value of hundreds of millions of

485
00:24:27,900 --> 00:24:31,770
Speaker 1: dollars today, honestly. Like, if you're thinking about What artifacts

486
00:24:31,810 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 1: of this quality are really worth at least tens of

487
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:38,300
Speaker 1: millions of dollars? But he can't prove that they're real.

488
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,139
Speaker 1: And they're so high quality, it's so rare to actually

489
00:24:42,220 --> 00:24:47,810
Speaker 1: find original, intact gold and gem-like jewelry from this period

490
00:24:47,830 --> 00:24:50,470
Speaker 1: of time, right? Because it usually just gets melted down.

491
00:24:50,830 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 1: That everyone's like, well, these are clearly fakes. Because nothing

492
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 1: this good exists. No one's seen shit that looks this

493
00:24:56,300 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 1: nice in a very long time from this part of

494
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,500
Speaker 1: the world. So you must be faking it, Giuseppe. You

495
00:25:02,060 --> 00:25:06,679
Speaker 1: bought some gold and had someone make this stuff. You know,

496
00:25:07,060 --> 00:25:10,270
Speaker 1: part of why all of the experts doubt Giuseppe when

497
00:25:10,310 --> 00:25:12,110
Speaker 1: he comes in is that he lies about where he'd

498
00:25:12,150 --> 00:25:13,910
Speaker 1: found them. They can tell that that whole thing about

499
00:25:13,930 --> 00:25:17,230
Speaker 1: the top chamber holding all this gold is bullshit because

500
00:25:17,330 --> 00:25:19,670
Speaker 1: none of the other pyramids that have been excavated worked

501
00:25:19,730 --> 00:25:23,710
Speaker 1: that way. So they know he's lying about something, right?

502
00:25:23,730 --> 00:25:26,689
Speaker 1: They just don't know exactly what. And they also know

503
00:25:26,710 --> 00:25:29,090
Speaker 1: that he's thrown a bunch of, like, Roman artifacts he

504
00:25:29,109 --> 00:25:32,070
Speaker 1: bought at a market in with the Egyptian stuff. So

505
00:25:32,109 --> 00:25:35,570
Speaker 1: nobody really trusts him. And eventually he does manage to

506
00:25:35,630 --> 00:25:38,570
Speaker 1: get this treasure purchased by the King of Bavaria. And

507
00:25:38,590 --> 00:25:41,290
Speaker 1: a bunch winds up in the Berlin Museum, partly because

508
00:25:41,369 --> 00:25:42,970
Speaker 1: they were some of the first people to realize the

509
00:25:43,010 --> 00:25:46,460
Speaker 1: artifacts were real, if completely separated from their proper context.

510
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:48,939
Speaker 1: All of the artifacts we talk about today, weirdly enough,

511
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:50,940
Speaker 1: are going to wind up in Germany pretty much, like

512
00:25:50,980 --> 00:25:53,239
Speaker 1: at least for a while. World War II is going

513
00:25:53,260 --> 00:25:55,860
Speaker 1: to change some of that. When the Soviets take over

514
00:25:56,380 --> 00:25:58,219
Speaker 1: Nazi Germany, they're going to be like, I don't think

515
00:25:58,240 --> 00:25:59,780
Speaker 1: you guys deserve all these artifacts.

516
00:25:59,800 --> 00:25:59,869
Speaker 3: Yes.

517
00:26:00,630 --> 00:26:20,219
Speaker 1: I think these are coming back to Moscow. meant that

518
00:26:20,260 --> 00:26:24,580
Speaker 1: Giuseppe's example immediately inspires an army of copycats to descend

519
00:26:24,660 --> 00:26:27,150
Speaker 1: on Moreau. As soon as it becomes known, hey, this

520
00:26:27,210 --> 00:26:31,609
Speaker 1: Italian fucker got rich finding artifacts in these pyramids, armies

521
00:26:31,650 --> 00:26:34,070
Speaker 1: of treasure hunters descend on Moreau, and they start doing

522
00:26:34,150 --> 00:26:36,950
Speaker 1: exactly what Giuseppe had did to every other intact pyramid

523
00:26:36,970 --> 00:26:39,290
Speaker 1: they can get their hands on. Per that article by

524
00:26:39,330 --> 00:26:45,859
Speaker 1: Markovits and Lacovara- Although Ferlini never returned to Nubia to

525
00:26:45,890 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 1: continue his hunting spree, others did. Spurred by his narrative,

526
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,820
Speaker 1: these zealous fortune-seekers destroyed the tops of nearly every pyramid

527
00:26:51,859 --> 00:26:54,790
Speaker 1: in the Sudan. Needless to say, nothing was ever discovered

528
00:26:54,810 --> 00:26:58,210
Speaker 1: during these decapitations. Moreover, if one uses Ferlini's dimensions of

529
00:26:58,250 --> 00:26:59,930
Speaker 1: the hidden chamber, it becomes apparent that a room of

530
00:26:59,970 --> 00:27:02,670
Speaker 1: this size could not structurally fit within the purported place.

531
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,630
Speaker 1: And here is a picture of what the pyramids looked

532
00:27:05,670 --> 00:27:08,169
Speaker 1: like after the, and it's just like a line of

533
00:27:08,210 --> 00:27:11,490
Speaker 1: like seven pyramids that are all ripped in half. Like

534
00:27:11,510 --> 00:27:13,630
Speaker 1: they just, between, a lot of it, they're not always

535
00:27:13,690 --> 00:27:15,189
Speaker 1: blowing them up. A lot of it's like you're just

536
00:27:15,230 --> 00:27:18,590
Speaker 1: having workmen hack through the tops with like axes, pickaxes.

537
00:27:19,090 --> 00:27:19,869
Speaker 1: But yeah, they're all ruined.

538
00:27:20,530 --> 00:27:23,570
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like someone just ripped off the muffin top. Yeah.

539
00:27:24,830 --> 00:27:27,110
Speaker 1: And it's because he needed to lie about where he'd

540
00:27:27,210 --> 00:27:30,090
Speaker 1: found the artifacts to hide the fact that he blew

541
00:27:30,109 --> 00:27:32,230
Speaker 1: it up for nothing. So all of these other pyramids

542
00:27:32,250 --> 00:27:33,610
Speaker 1: get destroyed because of that lie.

543
00:27:33,630 --> 00:27:36,530
Speaker 5: So because one man was shitty and a liar, a

544
00:27:36,670 --> 00:27:38,820
Speaker 5: bunch of other men became shitty liars?

545
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: They didn't lie. They were just ruining pyramids to try

546
00:27:41,859 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 1: to get rich. It was a very honest ransacking, Sophie.

547
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:45,380
Speaker 1: All right.

548
00:27:45,420 --> 00:27:47,420
Speaker 4: So one was a shitty liar and the others were

549
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:49,180
Speaker 4: just shitty. Got it.

550
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,020
Speaker 2: Like running on misinformation.

551
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:51,119
Speaker 3: Yeah.

552
00:27:51,740 --> 00:27:55,179
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's fair to say. Um, so Giuseppe did at

553
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 1: least have something of an excuse for his behavior, which

554
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 1: is that he never pretended to be anything but a

555
00:28:00,740 --> 00:28:02,869
Speaker 1: treasure hunter, right? I mean, he did a little, he

556
00:28:02,910 --> 00:28:04,630
Speaker 1: writes in an account of the journey that he wanted

557
00:28:04,650 --> 00:28:08,050
Speaker 1: to accomplish something for science, but that like one sentence,

558
00:28:08,410 --> 00:28:11,670
Speaker 1: everyone knows what Giuseppe's about, right? And he never goes

559
00:28:11,730 --> 00:28:15,270
Speaker 1: down as anything but a treasure hunter. Our main subject

560
00:28:15,310 --> 00:28:17,610
Speaker 1: for this week is someone who was just as destructive

561
00:28:17,650 --> 00:28:20,459
Speaker 1: as Giuseppe, perhaps much more so than but someone who

562
00:28:20,540 --> 00:28:23,860
Speaker 1: also attained respect and fame that exists in some circles

563
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 1: to the present day because of his crimes against history.

564
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,700
Speaker 1: His name is Heinrich Schliemann, and he destroyed the city

565
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:36,330
Speaker 1: of Troy. Johann Ludwig Heinrich Julius Schliemann. who was born

566
00:28:36,390 --> 00:28:40,670
Speaker 1: on January 6th, 1822, just about a generation after Giuseppe

567
00:28:40,710 --> 00:28:44,090
Speaker 1: was born. His childhood home was in Mecklenburg, a part

568
00:28:44,110 --> 00:28:47,140
Speaker 1: of Western Pomerania, which was under the control of Prussia,

569
00:28:47,580 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 1: and is itself a part of Northern Germany that people

570
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,140
Speaker 1: outside of Germany don't much discuss. You don't hear about

571
00:28:52,220 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 1: Pomeranians all that much these days, because we just kind of,

572
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,180
Speaker 1: all the Germans get mashed together now. Nobody really talks

573
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,229
Speaker 1: about Prussians all that much anymore either, right? They're technically

574
00:29:02,270 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: a bunch of different kinds of German, but Yeah, everything's

575
00:29:05,700 --> 00:29:08,530
Speaker 1: a little flatter now. But this is 50 years before

576
00:29:08,610 --> 00:29:11,110
Speaker 1: Germany exists almost, right? So these are all still a

577
00:29:11,130 --> 00:29:14,070
Speaker 1: bunch of independent kingdoms that are often at war with

578
00:29:14,130 --> 00:29:16,690
Speaker 1: each other. In fact, Heinrich grows up in a Europe

579
00:29:16,710 --> 00:29:19,490
Speaker 1: that had not that long ago put Napoleon down for

580
00:29:19,530 --> 00:29:22,030
Speaker 1: the last time. So he's kind of coming up really

581
00:29:22,090 --> 00:29:25,150
Speaker 1: like Europe is still recovering from the Napoleonic Wars in

582
00:29:25,190 --> 00:29:29,030
Speaker 1: his childhood, right? Like that's when he's growing up. his

583
00:29:29,090 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 1: father was a pastor and their financial situation was, I think,

584
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 1: broadly comfortable initially, but they weren't rich, but they seemed

585
00:29:36,460 --> 00:29:39,410
Speaker 1: to be doing okay. His parents valued education and he

586
00:29:39,450 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: grew into an avid reader. At age seven, he came

587
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: across a book, World History for Children, that featured an

588
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,260
Speaker 1: illustration of the ancient city of Troy on fire after

589
00:29:48,300 --> 00:29:52,100
Speaker 1: the Greeks sacked it. Now, as I said, historians were

590
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 1: in the process of, like, making being a historian a

591
00:29:55,020 --> 00:29:58,030
Speaker 1: career in the modern sense. And the more reputable ones

592
00:29:58,150 --> 00:30:00,460
Speaker 1: generally agreed in this period of time that the Iliad

593
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 1: was pure fiction, right? The Iliad and the Odyssey, totally fictional,

594
00:30:05,020 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 1: not based on anything real that had happened. That's not

595
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,460
Speaker 1: a universal conclusion, but I think it's like the more

596
00:30:09,570 --> 00:30:14,210
Speaker 1: mainstream one among like academics. Perhaps there'd been a real

597
00:30:14,310 --> 00:30:17,790
Speaker 1: city of Troy, but that was seen as unlikely. And

598
00:30:17,810 --> 00:30:19,890
Speaker 1: that's actually– we know that's wrong now, right? Like the

599
00:30:19,990 --> 00:30:22,610
Speaker 1: folk view is definitely that the Iliad was true. There

600
00:30:22,630 --> 00:30:25,710
Speaker 1: was a real Troy. And Heinrich as a kid believes

601
00:30:25,750 --> 00:30:27,860
Speaker 1: that Troy is a real place. And we now know

602
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 1: that it was, right? There was a real Troy and there's–

603
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,260
Speaker 1: the Iliad– not to say that the Iliad is like

604
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 1: an accurate history text, but there probably was some war–

605
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: Against Troy that it was like kind of based off of,

606
00:30:39,980 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 1: inspired by legends and rumors of, right? Because we do

607
00:30:43,700 --> 00:30:45,820
Speaker 1: know like that the place existed and that it got

608
00:30:45,900 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 1: sacked a few times. So Heinrich grows up, at least

609
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: Heinrich will later claim in his autobiography and stuff that

610
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,300
Speaker 1: he was always obsessed with Troy as a kid, right?

611
00:30:57,660 --> 00:31:00,140
Speaker 1: We don't actually know if that's accurate. Because he was

612
00:31:00,260 --> 00:31:02,060
Speaker 1: at the point at which he starts claiming that, oh,

613
00:31:02,340 --> 00:31:05,140
Speaker 1: as a child, I dreamed of finding the walls of Troy.

614
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,990
Speaker 1: He was consciously trying to turn himself into a celebrity.

615
00:31:08,010 --> 00:31:11,610
Speaker 1: And it's very possible that this is a complete lie.

616
00:31:11,630 --> 00:31:13,469
Speaker 1: His more credible biographer.

617
00:31:13,490 --> 00:31:15,290
Speaker 4: I was going to say, do you think he would

618
00:31:15,310 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 4: have been happy with the casting of Brad Pitt as Achilles?

619
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,180
Speaker 1: I don't think he would have liked Brad Pitt as Achilles.

620
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,340
Speaker 1: I don't think any of us really liked Brad Pitt

621
00:31:24,380 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 1: as Achilles. I, yeah, I, I, I'm frustrated at almost

622
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 1: all of the, uh, of the casting in, in every

623
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,180
Speaker 1: Iliad and Odyssey, but I also, I, I maintain that

624
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,140
Speaker 1: the best casting for Odysseus possible would have been Gene Wilder, right?

625
00:31:42,380 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: Like that's the, the Odyssey I want is Gene Wilder's Odysseus. Uh,

626
00:31:46,940 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 1: like that, that I, uh, I think we could have

627
00:31:50,580 --> 00:31:52,180
Speaker 1: gotten a great film. It's a comedy. It should be

628
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:57,130
Speaker 1: a comedy. Um, So his more credible biographers throw a

629
00:31:57,170 --> 00:32:00,230
Speaker 1: reasonable amount of cold water on this idea. Leo Duhl,

630
00:32:00,470 --> 00:32:03,130
Speaker 1: author of Memoirs of Heinrich Schliemann, points out that while

631
00:32:03,150 --> 00:32:05,740
Speaker 1: Schliemann would claim late in life to have been inspired

632
00:32:05,780 --> 00:32:08,340
Speaker 1: to find Troy by vivid tales of the war spun

633
00:32:08,380 --> 00:32:11,540
Speaker 1: into bedtime stories by his father, he never mentioned this

634
00:32:11,620 --> 00:32:14,180
Speaker 1: in his earliest books where he wrote about his upbringing

635
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 1: because he writes about his upbringing before he finds Troy

636
00:32:16,740 --> 00:32:19,710
Speaker 1: and he doesn't talk about this yet. So I think

637
00:32:19,770 --> 00:32:23,310
Speaker 1: this is myth-making, right? Post-facto or at least to some extent.

638
00:32:23,750 --> 00:32:25,930
Speaker 1: It's not weird. As a kid, he probably did encounter

639
00:32:26,010 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 1: the Iliad and the Odyssey. They were pretty popular stories

640
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 1: then as they are today. He would also claim in

641
00:32:32,220 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 1: the second draft of his life story that he'd grown

642
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: up raised on ghost stories, claims that their house was

643
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,940
Speaker 1: haunted by the pastor who'd lived there before his dad

644
00:32:39,980 --> 00:32:42,970
Speaker 1: took up the job. There were also, he claims, constant

645
00:32:42,990 --> 00:32:46,110
Speaker 1: stories of buried treasure in the local folklore of Mecklenburg.

646
00:32:46,150 --> 00:32:48,730
Speaker 1: There were these treasures that were supposed to be hidden

647
00:32:48,770 --> 00:32:51,290
Speaker 1: in various points in the past around the city he

648
00:32:51,310 --> 00:32:54,420
Speaker 1: grew up in. And Yeah, as a result, quote, this

649
00:32:54,460 --> 00:32:56,180
Speaker 1: is something he would write later. My faith in the

650
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,700
Speaker 1: existence of those treasures was so great that whenever I

651
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: heard my father complain of his poverty, I always expressed

652
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:03,870
Speaker 1: my astonishment that he did not dig up the silver

653
00:33:03,930 --> 00:33:06,870
Speaker 1: bowl or the golden cradle and so become rich. Well,

654
00:33:06,890 --> 00:33:09,130
Speaker 1: if there's all these riches in the woods, Dad, why

655
00:33:09,150 --> 00:33:09,790
Speaker 1: are you poor?

656
00:33:12,110 --> 00:33:14,650
Speaker 2: Just imagine if that's what your kid said. Just like,

657
00:33:14,930 --> 00:33:17,950
Speaker 2: will you go treasure hunt? I mean, my God.

658
00:33:18,410 --> 00:33:21,219
Speaker 1: Yeah, come on, Dad. We're eating fucking bread for the

659
00:33:21,340 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: fourth time this week. Get us some fucking gold. Yeah,

660
00:33:25,500 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 1: that would probably be pretty frustrating. Although, just his dad sucks.

661
00:33:29,460 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 3: So.

662
00:33:30,670 --> 00:33:33,230
Speaker 1: He claims, and again, this is almost certainly not true,

663
00:33:33,290 --> 00:33:35,870
Speaker 1: but that I talked of nothing else but searching for

664
00:33:35,950 --> 00:33:39,260
Speaker 1: treasure during his childhood. And as a result, I was

665
00:33:39,300 --> 00:33:46,620
Speaker 1: continually laughed at by everyone except two young girls. These ladies. Oh, boy.

666
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,100
Speaker 1: So what I'm reading here is that the two nice

667
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,580
Speaker 1: ladies in town took pity on you because you were

668
00:33:51,620 --> 00:33:53,570
Speaker 1: weird and wouldn't stop talking about Troy.

669
00:33:55,690 --> 00:33:57,310
Speaker 4: If a man came up to me or a boy

670
00:33:57,330 --> 00:33:58,790
Speaker 4: came up to me and was like, hey.

671
00:33:58,830 --> 00:33:58,970
Speaker 3: Yeah.

672
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 1: I'm going to find the ruins of Troy.

673
00:34:00,740 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 4: I'm going to find the ruins of Troy.

674
00:34:01,780 --> 00:34:03,580
Speaker 1: Do you think there's buried treasure in the woods?

675
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:05,260
Speaker 4: I would be like, I'm going to find the door

676
00:34:05,540 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 4: and take my drink with me.

677
00:34:07,220 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 1: Yeah.

678
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,340
Speaker 3: Honestly, I would be probably intrigued to be like, well, okay,

679
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 3: let's check it out.

680
00:34:12,300 --> 00:34:13,320
Speaker 1: Buried treasure, you say?

681
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,100
Speaker 2: Do your parents know where you are?

682
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,690
Speaker 1: Look. Are you in therapy? If a weird kid comes

683
00:34:19,750 --> 00:34:22,049
Speaker 1: up to you talking about buried treasure, it's always worth

684
00:34:22,110 --> 00:34:25,270
Speaker 1: rolling those dice if you're, It's probably not. Don't go

685
00:34:25,350 --> 00:34:27,370
Speaker 1: anywhere with a stranger who tells you he knows where

686
00:34:27,390 --> 00:34:29,530
Speaker 1: there's buried treasure. That's actually a terrible idea.

687
00:34:29,590 --> 00:34:31,240
Speaker 4: Yes, I agree. Thank you.

688
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:35,140
Speaker 1: Yeah. But he claims these two ladies, Louise and Mina Meineke,

689
00:34:35,540 --> 00:34:38,779
Speaker 1: always listened to me with profound attention, especially Mina, who

690
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,380
Speaker 1: he had a huge crush on. They took dancing lessons together,

691
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 1: but they weren't good at dancing, he says, because they're

692
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,840
Speaker 1: too obsessed planning to find Troy together one day. I

693
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 1: don't think this girl existed. I think this is a

694
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 1: lie he tells later about the like lost love of

695
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 1: his early life. She liked Troy just as much as

696
00:34:56,340 --> 00:34:58,260
Speaker 1: I did. And she didn't think I was a freak

697
00:34:58,700 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 1: for wanting to find buried gold.

698
00:35:00,540 --> 00:35:02,339
Speaker 3: She wanted to dance with me, but she was so

699
00:35:02,380 --> 00:35:03,140
Speaker 3: excited about Troy.

700
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,380
Speaker 2: She couldn't even dance with me, but she had.

701
00:35:05,100 --> 00:35:05,739
Speaker 1: A huge crush.

702
00:35:05,780 --> 00:35:06,610
Speaker 2: Huge crush.

703
00:35:06,620 --> 00:35:08,969
Speaker 1: She had a huge crush. She loved me, but we

704
00:35:09,010 --> 00:35:11,450
Speaker 1: were too in love with Troy. That was our real passion.

705
00:35:12,790 --> 00:35:16,009
Speaker 1: He's like 10. In 1831, his mom dies and he

706
00:35:16,030 --> 00:35:19,049
Speaker 1: describes her loss as an irreparable misfortune, which it must

707
00:35:19,090 --> 00:35:22,129
Speaker 1: have been. He and his six siblings soon felt another

708
00:35:22,170 --> 00:35:24,989
Speaker 1: piece of ill luck, quote, which resulted in all our

709
00:35:25,030 --> 00:35:28,650
Speaker 1: acquaintances suddenly turning their backs on us, including the Meineke sisters.

710
00:35:28,690 --> 00:35:32,210
Speaker 1: They get shunned by the whole town. Now, Heinrich doesn't

711
00:35:32,290 --> 00:35:35,549
Speaker 1: write what very bad thing caused this to happen in

712
00:35:35,610 --> 00:35:39,529
Speaker 1: his own writings, but his biographer tells us that his

713
00:35:39,610 --> 00:35:43,100
Speaker 1: dad had an affair with the maid Heinrich. Before mom died,

714
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,100
Speaker 1: I think mom gets sick. He's stopping the maid. Mom

715
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 1: dies and he keeps stopping the maid and he buys

716
00:35:48,620 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 1: her a bunch of a bunch of expensive jewelry and

717
00:35:50,890 --> 00:35:53,250
Speaker 1: everyone in town finds out about it and they ostracize

718
00:35:53,270 --> 00:35:55,469
Speaker 1: the whole family because the pastor is a piece of

719
00:35:55,510 --> 00:35:59,090
Speaker 1: shit because he's the pastor. Like he's definitely not supposed

720
00:35:59,130 --> 00:36:00,450
Speaker 1: to be doing this kind of shit.

721
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:02,660
Speaker 4: Boy, howdy.

722
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,770
Speaker 1: Yeah, not nice. So Heinrich's dad sends him to live

723
00:36:06,790 --> 00:36:09,070
Speaker 1: with his uncle for a while and pays to enroll

724
00:36:09,090 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 1: him in the gymnasium, which is like a– it's like

725
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,239
Speaker 1: there's a couple different high school equivalency things in the

726
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,320
Speaker 1: German states in this period of time. The gymnasium is

727
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,340
Speaker 1: the one that is meant to prepare you for college.

728
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,219
Speaker 1: If you go to gymnasium, it's because you're studying to

729
00:36:21,380 --> 00:36:24,710
Speaker 1: get a real education, right? But Heinrich only makes it

730
00:36:24,790 --> 00:36:27,660
Speaker 1: three months away. He claims a disaster in the family,

731
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:30,660
Speaker 1: made his continued schooling untenable, and he had to leave

732
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,050
Speaker 1: and go to a different school. And this one is–

733
00:36:33,219 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: the school he has to go to isn't preparing him

734
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,700
Speaker 1: for college. It's preparing him to, like, work a fucking

735
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:42,660
Speaker 1: bullshit job, right? Like, it's that kind of program, right?

736
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,800
Speaker 1: And the disaster– That forced him to stop going to

737
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,500
Speaker 1: gymnasium was the fact that his father got caught embezzling

738
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 1: from the church and lost his job. Or at least

739
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 1: he got accused of having embezzled from the church, was

740
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,270
Speaker 1: forced to resign. There is a later investigation and he's

741
00:36:58,290 --> 00:37:01,219
Speaker 1: declared innocent. So it may just be that after... After

742
00:37:01,260 --> 00:37:03,540
Speaker 1: he got caught cheating, they were like, well, we got

743
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:05,690
Speaker 1: to get this pastor out of here. And they kind

744
00:37:05,730 --> 00:37:08,629
Speaker 1: of fired him for a bullshit reason. I don't fully know, right?

745
00:37:08,710 --> 00:37:11,370
Speaker 1: I'm not going to bat for Heinrich's dad as having

746
00:37:11,570 --> 00:37:13,630
Speaker 1: not done the embezzlement.

747
00:37:13,650 --> 00:37:16,190
Speaker 3: I think he embezzled because he needed the money to

748
00:37:16,230 --> 00:37:18,350
Speaker 3: buy the gifts.

749
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:23,980
Speaker 1: For the maid. That's what I'm calling, too. At age 14,

750
00:37:23,980 --> 00:37:26,660
Speaker 1: he graduated and became an apprentice in a grocery shop

751
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:30,670
Speaker 1: in town. This is not a big shop. And Heinrich

752
00:37:30,690 --> 00:37:33,310
Speaker 1: would later claim, I, of course, came into contact only

753
00:37:33,350 --> 00:37:36,060
Speaker 1: with the lowest classes of society. So he's kind of

754
00:37:36,100 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 1: working at like a quickie mart, right? Like this is

755
00:37:38,100 --> 00:37:40,700
Speaker 1: the equivalent of like a little mini mart in a

756
00:37:40,780 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 1: bad part of town is the job he's doing in

757
00:37:43,660 --> 00:37:47,900
Speaker 1: like 1820s Germany as a 14 year old. So he

758
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,180
Speaker 1: does this for a couple of years. And this is another,

759
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:52,460
Speaker 1: we've got a couple, the first claim of how he

760
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 1: first started to hear the legends of Troy is that

761
00:37:54,460 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 1: he got that book as a kid. The second is

762
00:37:56,580 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 1: that his dad would tell him stories about Troy. And

763
00:37:59,420 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 1: the third thing that he would sometimes claim is that

764
00:38:02,620 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 1: a customer came in who would drink regularly at their

765
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,570
Speaker 1: little store, who had dropped out of the gymnasium after

766
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:12,110
Speaker 1: spending several more years in it than he had. and

767
00:38:12,150 --> 00:38:14,629
Speaker 1: who knew Homer and the original Greek. And Heinrich would

768
00:38:14,690 --> 00:38:16,989
Speaker 1: bribe this other boy with whiskey to get him to

769
00:38:17,030 --> 00:38:20,180
Speaker 1: recite the Iliad to him, right? And he vowed one

770
00:38:20,219 --> 00:38:22,460
Speaker 1: day to learn Greek so that he would be able

771
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,759
Speaker 1: to read, you know, the Iliad like this boy could.

772
00:38:25,540 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: And I don't know if that's true at all. Probably

773
00:38:28,620 --> 00:38:30,859
Speaker 1: the only part of this that we can safely say

774
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,230
Speaker 1: is accurate is that Heinrich very likely worked a dead

775
00:38:34,250 --> 00:38:38,489
Speaker 1: end grocery job as a young man, right? That's pretty plausible.

776
00:38:39,850 --> 00:38:42,770
Speaker 1: He describes himself as having been relieved of the fate

777
00:38:42,870 --> 00:38:45,969
Speaker 1: of remaining there as if by a miracle. And here's

778
00:38:46,010 --> 00:38:49,820
Speaker 1: the miracle. Quote, by lifting too heavy a cask of chicory,

779
00:38:49,969 --> 00:38:52,180
Speaker 1: a blood vessel sprung in my lungs and I got

780
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 1: heavy blood spitting, which rendered me incapable for all sorts

781
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,880
Speaker 1: of hard work. My patron, seeing that in my broken

782
00:38:57,920 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 1: health I could not be of any more use to him,

783
00:38:59,820 --> 00:39:01,839
Speaker 1: took an apprentice in my place and turned me out.

784
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:05,620
Speaker 1: He's like 17 or 18. I was about to say.

785
00:39:07,100 --> 00:39:09,420
Speaker 1: He picks up a barrel of chicory so big it

786
00:39:09,500 --> 00:39:10,540
Speaker 1: blows out his lungs.

787
00:39:12,620 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 4: Sorry.

788
00:39:14,180 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 1: That's fucked up. Like on the job injuries were another

789
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 1: level back then.

790
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:20,940
Speaker 2: No workman's comp for him.

791
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:22,620
Speaker 3: No, no, no.

792
00:39:24,010 --> 00:39:26,770
Speaker 1: Actually, workman's comp kind of comes into existence not long

793
00:39:26,890 --> 00:39:29,970
Speaker 1: after this, after the establishment of Germany out of on Bismarck.

794
00:39:30,150 --> 00:39:33,330
Speaker 1: like the architect of the German state, puts into program

795
00:39:33,350 --> 00:39:35,969
Speaker 1: some of the first social welfare programs like that, at

796
00:39:35,989 --> 00:39:38,430
Speaker 1: least in Germany, because it's like a way to fight

797
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:42,180
Speaker 1: the socialists, right? It's like, well, these socialists are promising

798
00:39:42,219 --> 00:39:43,980
Speaker 1: workers a lot. We got to give them something if

799
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,940
Speaker 1: they blow out their hearts lifting chicory barrels.

800
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 2: Right.

801
00:39:49,469 --> 00:39:51,830
Speaker 1: In terms of what actually went wrong with Heinrich here,

802
00:39:51,910 --> 00:39:55,670
Speaker 1: Leo Duell, his biographer, suspects he had tuberculosis. And so

803
00:39:55,730 --> 00:39:58,820
Speaker 1: he wound up coughing up blood, exerting himself, but it

804
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 1: was the tuberculosis that caused it, not the chicory barrel.

805
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 1: Probably more likely, I would guess. Like, I've lifted stuff

806
00:40:05,739 --> 00:40:07,660
Speaker 1: that was too heavy for me, but it's never caused

807
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,839
Speaker 1: me to start spitting up blood. So I think maybe

808
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:14,950
Speaker 1: tuberculosis played a role one way or the other. Everyone

809
00:40:14,989 --> 00:40:16,850
Speaker 1: has TB in the 1820s, by the way, right?

810
00:40:17,070 --> 00:40:17,140
Speaker 3: Yep.

811
00:40:19,530 --> 00:40:21,770
Speaker 1: Either way, whatever the actual truth here, at the end

812
00:40:21,790 --> 00:40:24,830
Speaker 1: of his apprenticeship, Heinrich has a work-related injury that means

813
00:40:24,850 --> 00:40:27,730
Speaker 1: he can't really do labor anymore. And he's got about

814
00:40:27,730 --> 00:40:31,390
Speaker 1: 30 Prussian dollars to his name. From this humble beginning,

815
00:40:31,489 --> 00:40:34,489
Speaker 1: he would eventually make a fortune. So his dream at

816
00:40:34,510 --> 00:40:36,410
Speaker 1: this point of time is to get the fuck out

817
00:40:36,430 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 1: of Pomerania and make it to America, a land where

818
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 1: he already knows he can reinvent himself. Even in like

819
00:40:41,940 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 1: the mid, like early 1800s, 1820s, 30s, people are like, yeah,

820
00:40:45,580 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 1: if you can get over to the U.S., You know,

821
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:53,070
Speaker 1: anything's possible there. They'll take anybody, right? You can really

822
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,350
Speaker 1: make some things happen if you're an ambitious kid with

823
00:40:55,430 --> 00:40:59,150
Speaker 1: no morals in the United States. So he wants to

824
00:40:59,190 --> 00:41:01,550
Speaker 1: do that. And he gets passage on a ship bound

825
00:41:01,590 --> 00:41:04,089
Speaker 1: for Venezuela, working as a cabin boy. And his plan

826
00:41:04,130 --> 00:41:06,029
Speaker 1: is to take it to Venezuela. And then once he

827
00:41:06,050 --> 00:41:08,690
Speaker 1: hits Venezuela, start finding odd jobs and make his way

828
00:41:08,730 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 1: to the United States, right? However, this dream is cut

829
00:41:12,739 --> 00:41:15,410
Speaker 1: short because after less than two weeks at sea, His

830
00:41:15,489 --> 00:41:18,290
Speaker 1: ship hits a horrible storm and wrecks and Heinrich is

831
00:41:18,390 --> 00:41:20,790
Speaker 1: washed up ashore in the Netherlands. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Like

832
00:41:20,830 --> 00:41:23,069
Speaker 1: literally flotsam in the sea.

833
00:41:23,090 --> 00:41:23,760
Speaker 2: Yeah.

834
00:41:25,340 --> 00:41:27,470
Speaker 4: Low key, not a bad pace to wash up.

835
00:41:28,100 --> 00:41:29,940
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you're going to wash up somewhere,

836
00:41:30,420 --> 00:41:32,340
Speaker 1: I would pick the Netherlands over a lot of places.

837
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 1: You know where else I'd like to wash up? At

838
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:37,280
Speaker 1: the sponsors of this show.

839
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:38,180
Speaker 5: Oh.

840
00:41:39,020 --> 00:41:39,320
Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

841
00:41:46,739 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 1: And we're back. So this segment from a Deutsche Welle

842
00:41:50,180 --> 00:41:54,250
Speaker 1: article by Sabine Uhls describes Heinrich's next chapter of life

843
00:41:54,290 --> 00:41:57,730
Speaker 1: well enough after he comes ashore in the Netherlands. He

844
00:41:57,790 --> 00:42:00,650
Speaker 1: finally reached Amsterdam after many detours. Well, he found a

845
00:42:00,710 --> 00:42:03,430
Speaker 1: job as a messenger at a trading post. His ability

846
00:42:03,469 --> 00:42:05,730
Speaker 1: to learn languages helped him. In only a year, he

847
00:42:05,750 --> 00:42:09,580
Speaker 1: had learned Dutch, Spanish, Italian, and Portuguese. Later, he added

848
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,360
Speaker 1: Russian to his repertoire and knew when to strategically deploy

849
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:15,100
Speaker 1: his language skills. After moving to Russia, he dealt in

850
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 1: raw materials for munitions and made a lot of money, right?

851
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 1: So he's just kind of a generic old-timey businessman, right?

852
00:42:22,420 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 1: He works at an import-export firm, and he's just buying

853
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 1: things one place, selling them for a higher price at

854
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:29,660
Speaker 1: the next place, yeah? And that's how he gets sent

855
00:42:29,700 --> 00:42:33,649
Speaker 1: to Russia. He settles in St. Petersburg, and he spends

856
00:42:33,690 --> 00:42:36,830
Speaker 1: his time, like, yeah, doing import and export stuff, and

857
00:42:36,870 --> 00:42:39,109
Speaker 1: he does very well at this, enough that a bunch

858
00:42:39,170 --> 00:42:41,950
Speaker 1: of different companies hire him to move their goods, and

859
00:42:41,969 --> 00:42:45,110
Speaker 1: he starts to make really good money. As he obtains,

860
00:42:45,270 --> 00:42:47,569
Speaker 1: you know, the beginnings of a fortune, he commits to

861
00:42:47,670 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 1: filling in what he saw as the holes in his education.

862
00:42:50,580 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 1: Learning new languages was of prime importance to Heinrich, and

863
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,500
Speaker 1: he develops a system he will later claim that allows

864
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 1: him to learn any language in six weeks. And I

865
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 1: don't know if that's, that'd be a very impressive system.

866
00:43:02,390 --> 00:43:03,950
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's real.

867
00:43:03,969 --> 00:43:04,530
Speaker 3: Mr. Duolingo.

868
00:43:05,570 --> 00:43:09,009
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's got to be better than fucking Duolingo. But

869
00:43:09,030 --> 00:43:10,989
Speaker 1: he gets really good. He's like a polyglot. He's one

870
00:43:11,010 --> 00:43:14,290
Speaker 1: of these people that just takes to new languages incredibly easily.

871
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:17,540
Speaker 1: And one of his hobbies, he writes diary entries like

872
00:43:17,580 --> 00:43:20,420
Speaker 1: his entire life, like thousands of pages. And when he's

873
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:22,760
Speaker 1: in a different country, he will write in the language

874
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:25,370
Speaker 1: of whatever country he happens to physically be in at

875
00:43:25,410 --> 00:43:25,790
Speaker 1: the time.

876
00:43:25,830 --> 00:43:26,390
Speaker 2: That's kind of cool.

877
00:43:26,410 --> 00:43:26,509
Speaker 3: Right?

878
00:43:26,530 --> 00:43:29,130
Speaker 1: Like he's that kind of polyglot. It's a pretty good flex.

879
00:43:29,190 --> 00:43:33,810
Speaker 1: Like I got to give it to Heinrich. That's pretty sick. Yeah.

880
00:43:33,890 --> 00:43:36,450
Speaker 1: He would later explain his business success this way in

881
00:43:36,489 --> 00:43:39,049
Speaker 1: a letter to a friend. In every situation of my life,

882
00:43:39,170 --> 00:43:41,330
Speaker 1: I always proved how much of a person can accomplish

883
00:43:41,350 --> 00:43:44,509
Speaker 1: with iron energy. I performed miracles during my four-year stay

884
00:43:44,530 --> 00:43:47,630
Speaker 1: in Amsterdam from 1842 to 1846. I did what nobody

885
00:43:47,670 --> 00:43:49,690
Speaker 1: else has ever done and could ever do. When I

886
00:43:49,730 --> 00:43:51,669
Speaker 1: became a merchant in St. Petersburg, I was the most

887
00:43:51,810 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 1: able and prudent businessman of the entire exchange. Later, as

888
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:58,810
Speaker 1: a traveler, I was a traveler par excellence. He's a narcissist, right?

889
00:43:58,950 --> 00:44:00,489
Speaker 1: Everything I did, I was the best at it. The

890
00:44:00,510 --> 00:44:03,170
Speaker 1: best anyone's ever seen. He's very Trumpy. No one's ever

891
00:44:03,250 --> 00:44:05,770
Speaker 1: seen a trader better than me in Amsterdam. No one's

892
00:44:05,830 --> 00:44:08,500
Speaker 1: ever seen a better businessman in St. Petersburg. I was

893
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:13,299
Speaker 1: the top, you know? A very familiar kind of narcissistic

894
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:14,720
Speaker 1: rich guy writing style.

895
00:44:14,980 --> 00:44:17,240
Speaker 2: And how old was he at this point?

896
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,910
Speaker 1: He's in his 20s. He gets rich fairly, or he

897
00:44:20,930 --> 00:44:22,950
Speaker 1: starts to get comfortable fairly young. I don't know how

898
00:44:22,969 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 1: rich he is, but he's doing all right. He's probably

899
00:44:25,660 --> 00:44:30,140
Speaker 1: exaggerating his financial success somewhat, I have reason to believe,

900
00:44:30,570 --> 00:44:33,490
Speaker 1: because in 1850, he receives word that his brother Ludwig,

901
00:44:33,790 --> 00:44:36,410
Speaker 1: who'd moved to California and gotten rich in the gold rush,

902
00:44:36,710 --> 00:44:40,549
Speaker 1: had just died. And kind of seeking to take Ludwig's money,

903
00:44:40,630 --> 00:44:42,450
Speaker 1: because I don't think he has quite as much as

904
00:44:42,469 --> 00:44:44,089
Speaker 1: he pretends he had at this point, and he really

905
00:44:44,130 --> 00:44:47,299
Speaker 1: wanted Ludwig's money, he moves to the United States in

906
00:44:47,340 --> 00:44:49,820
Speaker 1: order to get access to it. From the book Finding

907
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,509
Speaker 1: the Walls of Troy by Susan Allen. On hearing of

908
00:44:52,530 --> 00:44:55,670
Speaker 1: his brother's death in California, Schliemann traveled to the United

909
00:44:55,710 --> 00:44:57,870
Speaker 1: States in order to recoup some of the fortune Louis

910
00:44:57,890 --> 00:45:00,540
Speaker 1: Schliemann had made as a San Francisco innkeeper during the

911
00:45:00,580 --> 00:45:03,700
Speaker 1: gold rush. He arrived in 1851, just three years after

912
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:06,460
Speaker 1: the gold was discovered, when the state's population was rising

913
00:45:06,500 --> 00:45:10,800
Speaker 1: from 14,000 to 250,000. Within months of his arrival, Schliemann

914
00:45:10,820 --> 00:45:12,660
Speaker 1: had set up a bank where he bought gold dust

915
00:45:12,700 --> 00:45:14,510
Speaker 1: and sold it to an agent of a London firm.

916
00:45:14,950 --> 00:45:19,649
Speaker 1: In five and a half months, he had sold $ 1. 35

917
00:45:17,489 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 1: million in gold dust with a profit, according to today's values,

918
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:27,900
Speaker 1: of roughly 162,000 pounds or about $ 243, 000. When the Rothschild

919
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 1: agent in San Francisco threatened to break off relations with

920
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:34,400
Speaker 1: Schliemann because of consistently short weight consignments, Schliemann sold the

921
00:45:34,420 --> 00:45:37,340
Speaker 1: bank and, feigning fever, left in a hurry. He returned

922
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:42,089
Speaker 1: to St. Petersburg and quickly married a Katerina Lyshin in 1852.

923
00:45:42,090 --> 00:45:45,230
Speaker 1: And so basically, he moves to the U.S. to get

924
00:45:45,270 --> 00:45:47,390
Speaker 1: his brother's money. He starts a bank. He starts moving

925
00:45:47,430 --> 00:45:50,629
Speaker 1: gold dust, and he's shorting everybody. He's not sending as much,

926
00:45:50,690 --> 00:45:53,770
Speaker 1: and he's fucking with the measurements. He's scamming them. And

927
00:45:53,810 --> 00:45:55,810
Speaker 1: he has to flee the country to run back to

928
00:45:55,870 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 1: Russia because he gets in trouble for doing it.

929
00:45:58,170 --> 00:45:59,130
Speaker 4: Wow.

930
00:46:00,350 --> 00:46:02,609
Speaker 1: And that's fun, right? We love a good little cod man,

931
00:46:02,750 --> 00:46:05,810
Speaker 1: you know? And that's the thing about Heinrich. He's usually

932
00:46:05,910 --> 00:46:09,629
Speaker 1: in legal businesses, but he always cheats. Whenever he can

933
00:46:09,690 --> 00:46:11,529
Speaker 1: cheat to get ahead, he's going to do that. And

934
00:46:11,550 --> 00:46:13,009
Speaker 1: then he's just going to run like fuck when he

935
00:46:13,050 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 1: gets caught. In short, he's an American, right? He's one

936
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 1: of the first Americans. Even though he's back in Europe,

937
00:46:19,540 --> 00:46:21,460
Speaker 1: he's not going to be a citizen for years more

938
00:46:21,500 --> 00:46:24,219
Speaker 1: at this point. This man is always an American in

939
00:46:24,260 --> 00:46:28,510
Speaker 1: his heart, right? He never found a grift he didn't love. Yeah.

940
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 1: So he winds up back in Russia right as the

941
00:46:31,020 --> 00:46:33,839
Speaker 1: Crimean War starts, and he decides, you know what I'm

942
00:46:33,860 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 1: good at? Being a war profiteer. Might as well be

943
00:46:36,620 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 1: a war profiteer again. Susan Allen writes that he capitalized

944
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:42,880
Speaker 1: on shortages during the British blockade of Russian ports and

945
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 1: invested all his cash in a risky venture whereby supplies

946
00:46:45,660 --> 00:46:49,320
Speaker 1: would be offloaded in Prussia and transported overland to St. Petersburg.

947
00:46:49,620 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 1: When it paid off, he repeatedly turned over his money

948
00:46:51,820 --> 00:46:54,550
Speaker 1: and doubled his investment in a year. So he takes

949
00:46:54,610 --> 00:46:56,839
Speaker 1: the fortune he already has and he doubles it by

950
00:46:57,140 --> 00:47:00,040
Speaker 1: cashing in on the Crimean War, right? That people are starving,

951
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,219
Speaker 1: there's not enough stuff, and he invests in this overland. Yeah,

952
00:47:03,260 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 1: he's a war profiteer, you know? By the war's end,

953
00:47:06,540 --> 00:47:09,980
Speaker 1: he is a very wealthy man. Probably by the modern

954
00:47:10,020 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 1: equivalent of like a decamillionaire, maybe even more, right? Maybe

955
00:47:13,660 --> 00:47:15,490
Speaker 1: hundreds of millions of dollars in modern money.

956
00:47:15,660 --> 00:47:18,410
Speaker 4: He's just hitting all the grips. Yeah, well.

957
00:47:18,450 --> 00:47:21,220
Speaker 1: He's hitting all the grifts. He's knocking them, he does

958
00:47:21,260 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 1: everything but genocide, really, in his time.

959
00:47:23,060 --> 00:47:25,919
Speaker 4: You know, and we appreciate that.

960
00:47:26,100 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 1: And we appreciate, like, leaving the genocide off the list, yeah.

961
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:31,740
Speaker 1: He's rich enough, I don't think he's quite 30, that

962
00:47:31,940 --> 00:47:34,930
Speaker 1: he seriously considers retiring. I think he would have been

963
00:47:34,950 --> 00:47:38,610
Speaker 1: around 30. He seriously considers retiring, right? But during one

964
00:47:38,630 --> 00:47:41,589
Speaker 1: of his business trips, he'd visited the British Museum and

965
00:47:41,630 --> 00:47:43,969
Speaker 1: been enthralled by a scale model of the Temple of

966
00:47:44,030 --> 00:47:47,840
Speaker 1: Ramses II. And this seems to be what either ignited

967
00:47:47,980 --> 00:47:50,739
Speaker 1: or reignited the fascination with Troy that he'd had as

968
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,509
Speaker 1: a kid. We know he writes his father in March

969
00:47:53,530 --> 00:47:56,650
Speaker 1: of 1856 that he'd planned to visit the land of

970
00:47:56,750 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 1: beloved Homer, aka Greece, and began to study for such

971
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:03,020
Speaker 1: a trip, learning ancient Greek and Latin and starting a

972
00:48:03,100 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 1: book club for other nerds. Travel is a very serious

973
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:08,879
Speaker 1: thing in the mid-1800s. Again, you might die any time

974
00:48:08,900 --> 00:48:11,299
Speaker 1: you go more than like five minutes from home. So

975
00:48:11,580 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 1: you're going to be really, if you're going to travel,

976
00:48:13,180 --> 00:48:15,569
Speaker 1: you're going to learn the local languages and do all

977
00:48:15,590 --> 00:48:18,470
Speaker 1: of this work, right? He puts a lot of effort

978
00:48:18,550 --> 00:48:20,890
Speaker 1: into his trips. You've got to give him that. And

979
00:48:20,930 --> 00:48:23,250
Speaker 1: he keeps this up for years, writing constantly of his

980
00:48:23,310 --> 00:48:27,290
Speaker 1: ambition to visit Greece for purposes involved with my beloved sciences.

981
00:48:28,150 --> 00:48:30,970
Speaker 1: And he by this point, by the late 1850s, it

982
00:48:31,190 --> 00:48:34,210
Speaker 1: seems fair to say that he planned to visit Greece.

983
00:48:34,910 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 1: And he had maybe some ambitions to try and like

984
00:48:37,739 --> 00:48:40,460
Speaker 1: find ruins of the stories that he'd read about there,

985
00:48:40,500 --> 00:48:43,299
Speaker 1: whether he's not talking about excavating Troy at this point,

986
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:46,450
Speaker 1: but he's talking around the subject. His first trip to

987
00:48:46,489 --> 00:48:48,950
Speaker 1: Greece isn't until the end of 1858, and he has

988
00:48:48,969 --> 00:48:51,739
Speaker 1: to return early because a former business partner sues him

989
00:48:51,780 --> 00:48:54,500
Speaker 1: in London. I think it might have been in St. Petersburg,

990
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:55,859
Speaker 1: but this is why he has to go back home,

991
00:48:56,020 --> 00:48:59,859
Speaker 1: because he scammed somebody again, right? Although he does win

992
00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:02,180
Speaker 1: his case, but I don't think that means he was

993
00:49:02,219 --> 00:49:04,630
Speaker 1: probably in the right, just knowing Heinrich. Sure.

994
00:49:04,670 --> 00:49:06,890
Speaker 2: He probably paid off the judge or some kind of

995
00:49:06,910 --> 00:49:07,310
Speaker 2: grift or something.

996
00:49:07,330 --> 00:49:11,500
Speaker 1: Yeah, he probably bribed the judge. Yeah. And then he

997
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:14,060
Speaker 1: starts work. He was planning to retire, but he goes

998
00:49:14,100 --> 00:49:16,610
Speaker 1: back to work right after this court case ends because

999
00:49:16,630 --> 00:49:19,009
Speaker 1: the Civil War, the U.S. Civil War starts in 1860.

1000
00:49:20,140 --> 00:49:22,900
Speaker 1: And you bet your ass Heinrich War Profiteer Schliemann is

1001
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 1: going to profiteer the shit out of the U.S. Civil War.

1002
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:27,740
Speaker 1: So he heads to the United States and he makes

1003
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 1: a bunch of money speculating in cotton, indigo, and other commodities.

1004
00:49:32,219 --> 00:49:35,420
Speaker 1: In 1864, as the war is winding down, he retires again.

1005
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:38,140
Speaker 1: And departs this time for finally he's going to have

1006
00:49:38,180 --> 00:49:40,359
Speaker 1: his world tour. He's going to be traveling for like

1007
00:49:40,380 --> 00:49:42,760
Speaker 1: a year or two. And he's going to visit every

1008
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 1: place in like the classical European imagination. He starts in

1009
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:51,090
Speaker 1: Carthage and he goes all throughout, you know, the Mediterranean

1010
00:49:51,130 --> 00:49:54,569
Speaker 1: basin and eventually on to Japan and through China. Like

1011
00:49:54,610 --> 00:49:58,760
Speaker 1: he goes all over the fucking world. He spends 50

1012
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:01,900
Speaker 1: days crossing the Pacific to get to the Americas. And

1013
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:04,420
Speaker 1: in his letters home, Schliemann would write about his newfound

1014
00:50:04,460 --> 00:50:08,100
Speaker 1: appreciation for the importance of preserving ancient ruins and monuments.

1015
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:10,780
Speaker 1: As he sees all of these ancient monuments in different countries,

1016
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:14,020
Speaker 1: he's like, I've been taken with the importance of preserving

1017
00:50:14,060 --> 00:50:16,660
Speaker 1: our shared cultural heritage. And as he writes about that,

1018
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:18,779
Speaker 1: he also writes about breaking off and stealing a piece

1019
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:22,980
Speaker 1: of the Great Wall of China. Dude. Not super consistent.

1020
00:50:23,770 --> 00:50:27,150
Speaker 1: And biographer Susan Allen tries to explain this by calling

1021
00:50:27,170 --> 00:50:30,950
Speaker 1: it hypocritical disrespect for governments that did not concern themselves

1022
00:50:30,989 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 1: with the preservation of monuments, right? That, well, the Chinese

1023
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:37,279
Speaker 1: aren't taking good enough care of their Great Wall, so

1024
00:50:37,340 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 1: I need to bring a piece of it home with

1025
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:44,420
Speaker 1: me to keep it safe, right? In January of 1866,

1026
00:50:44,420 --> 00:50:48,009
Speaker 1: Heinrich has returned home to his wife and multiple children

1027
00:50:48,050 --> 00:50:51,149
Speaker 1: in St. Petersburg, but he doesn't really like doing that.

1028
00:50:51,390 --> 00:50:56,580
Speaker 1: And as... Susan Allen writes, quote, Schliemann again abandoned his

1029
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,319
Speaker 1: family to go visit the British Museum like weeks after

1030
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:01,370
Speaker 1: he returns. He's like, but you know what? I don't

1031
00:51:01,390 --> 00:51:04,270
Speaker 1: really want to raise my kids. Katarina, you've got that, right?

1032
00:51:04,690 --> 00:51:06,509
Speaker 1: You can handle having a family thing? All right, I'm

1033
00:51:06,530 --> 00:51:08,149
Speaker 1: going to head to the museum for like six months.

1034
00:51:08,170 --> 00:51:11,370
Speaker 4: I'm shocked that Mr. Griff guy isn't a good wife guy.

1035
00:51:11,770 --> 00:51:15,069
Speaker 1: Another Trump parallel. He has kids at this point. Yeah,

1036
00:51:15,090 --> 00:51:19,029
Speaker 1: another Trump. His children only know him through his letters,

1037
00:51:19,140 --> 00:51:19,620
Speaker 1: pretty much.

1038
00:51:20,500 --> 00:51:20,820
Speaker 3: Cool.

1039
00:51:21,100 --> 00:51:23,279
Speaker 1: So he spends weeks at the British Museum, and then

1040
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 1: he goes to France to study literature for a month

1041
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 1: at the Sorbonne. His family is based in St. Petersburg

1042
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 1: this whole time, and he just does not want to

1043
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:34,430
Speaker 1: be anywhere near them. In his letters home, he makes

1044
00:51:34,469 --> 00:51:38,070
Speaker 1: a couple half-hearted attempts to convince his wife to like move.

1045
00:51:38,150 --> 00:51:40,830
Speaker 1: Why don't you come to Paris? And he actually threatens

1046
00:51:40,870 --> 00:51:43,770
Speaker 1: to divorce her twice because she won't. What he never

1047
00:51:43,830 --> 00:51:46,150
Speaker 1: does at any point is make spending time with his

1048
00:51:46,210 --> 00:51:48,670
Speaker 1: family a priority. And his son only comes to know

1049
00:51:48,710 --> 00:51:51,090
Speaker 1: him through his letters, which are mostly about his passion

1050
00:51:51,130 --> 00:51:53,810
Speaker 1: for antiquities. He's like writing letters that are basically like,

1051
00:51:54,210 --> 00:51:57,200
Speaker 1: I love antiquities so much more than raising my own kids. Yeah.

1052
00:51:59,190 --> 00:52:02,170
Speaker 1: Later in 1868, he visits Italy, and as a tourist,

1053
00:52:02,190 --> 00:52:05,430
Speaker 1: he gets to watch his first archaeological dig. This is

1054
00:52:05,489 --> 00:52:08,400
Speaker 1: in Pompeii, and it's being held by a different Giuseppe,

1055
00:52:09,020 --> 00:52:12,540
Speaker 1: who was an actual trailblazing archaeologist, from finding the walls

1056
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 1: of Troy. At Pompeii, with its marvelous preservation, urban city plan,

1057
00:52:16,739 --> 00:52:19,590
Speaker 1: and relation to the coastline, he was awakened to the

1058
00:52:19,630 --> 00:52:23,070
Speaker 1: possibilities of archaeology. On the 16th of June, he recorded

1059
00:52:23,110 --> 00:52:26,790
Speaker 1: Fiorelli's innovative method of reclaiming the incinerated bodies of Pompeians.

1060
00:52:27,260 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 1: Schliemann was impressed by Fiorelli's use of a railway to

1061
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:32,120
Speaker 1: dispose of unwanted debris and by the sheer history of

1062
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:35,840
Speaker 1: archaeological exploration there. Yet the impatient Schliemann could not stomach

1063
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:38,980
Speaker 1: the amount of time, two weeks, that Fiorelli took to

1064
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:43,319
Speaker 1: clear one house. And that's fast in archaeology terms today.

1065
00:52:44,070 --> 00:52:46,650
Speaker 1: So he loves the look of all this, but he's like,

1066
00:52:46,670 --> 00:52:49,970
Speaker 1: but all this time. What if there was a way

1067
00:52:50,010 --> 00:52:55,980
Speaker 1: to excavate ancient ruins really fucking fast, right? And he's

1068
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,500
Speaker 1: going to keep thinking along these lines. And we'll talk

1069
00:52:58,540 --> 00:53:00,440
Speaker 1: about where that leads him and what it leads him

1070
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:03,970
Speaker 1: to destroy in part two, which is going to involve

1071
00:53:03,989 --> 00:53:05,969
Speaker 1: the destruction of the ruins of the city of Troy.

1072
00:53:06,410 --> 00:53:08,989
Speaker 1: But that's all we've got for today. Kristen, how are

1073
00:53:09,010 --> 00:53:09,390
Speaker 1: you feeling?

1074
00:53:11,290 --> 00:53:15,200
Speaker 3: I feel like I don't know if I never want

1075
00:53:15,219 --> 00:53:18,420
Speaker 3: to watch Indiana Jones again or watch it right after

1076
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 3: this recording.

1077
00:53:19,500 --> 00:53:20,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1078
00:53:20,580 --> 00:53:25,910
Speaker 1: Yeah. I can imagine like Indiana Jones being the stories

1079
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 1: a guy like Giuseppe tells to explain like why he

1080
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 1: just has the artifact and no notes about where it

1081
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:33,900
Speaker 1: came from and the place he got it from is destroyed. Yeah,

1082
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:37,470
Speaker 1: these Nazis. Oh, man, they were they were so bad.

1083
00:53:37,530 --> 00:53:39,830
Speaker 1: I had to just grab that big golden crate and

1084
00:53:39,870 --> 00:53:43,109
Speaker 1: run with it, you know. It killed them all. Don't

1085
00:53:43,210 --> 00:53:45,969
Speaker 1: open it. Don't look inside too close. Just give me

1086
00:53:45,989 --> 00:53:46,350
Speaker 1: the money.

1087
00:53:47,010 --> 00:53:48,549
Speaker 2: And then with this guy, he would have added like,

1088
00:53:48,610 --> 00:53:49,870
Speaker 2: and by the way, women loved me.

1089
00:53:50,210 --> 00:53:52,070
Speaker 1: Oh yeah. With Heinrich.

1090
00:53:52,110 --> 00:53:52,320
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1091
00:53:52,390 --> 00:53:52,990
Speaker 2: It crushes.

1092
00:53:53,010 --> 00:53:54,879
Speaker 4: Yeah. I'm big with the girlies.

1093
00:53:55,540 --> 00:53:55,779
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1094
00:53:56,230 --> 00:53:58,810
Speaker 1: So that's what we got for part one. You got

1095
00:53:58,830 --> 00:54:01,250
Speaker 1: any pluggables to plug, Kristen Conger, before we head out?

1096
00:54:01,450 --> 00:54:02,050
Speaker 2: I do.

1097
00:54:02,670 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 3: You can listen to my podcast, Unladylike, which is about women, culture, politics.

1098
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:13,060
Speaker 3: And if you are more interested in more kind of

1099
00:54:13,300 --> 00:54:17,580
Speaker 3: women behind the bastards, honestly, listen to Conspiracy, she wrote,

1100
00:54:17,620 --> 00:54:23,930
Speaker 3: which is all about women's roles in conspiracism and disinformation and...

1101
00:54:24,739 --> 00:54:27,379
Speaker 3: You know, just spreading a lot of fascist bullshit.

1102
00:54:27,820 --> 00:54:31,839
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Sounds great. We'll check all that out. And

1103
00:54:31,900 --> 00:54:34,219
Speaker 1: check us out Thursday when we're back with more of

1104
00:54:34,300 --> 00:54:35,820
Speaker 1: Heinrich Schliemann's bullshit.

1105
00:54:39,690 --> 00:54:42,210
Speaker 4: Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media.

1106
00:54:42,410 --> 00:54:46,109
Speaker 4: For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com.

1107
00:54:46,510 --> 00:54:49,150
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1108
00:54:49,330 --> 00:54:50,730
Speaker 4: or wherever you get your podcasts.

1109
00:54:51,700 --> 00:54:54,280
Speaker 5: Full video episodes of Behind the Bastards are now streaming

1110
00:54:54,340 --> 00:54:57,549
Speaker 5: on Netflix, dropping every Tuesday and Thursday. Hit Remind Me

1111
00:54:57,590 --> 00:55:00,330
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1112
00:55:00,410 --> 00:55:03,110
Speaker 5: and our older episode catalog, continue to subscribe to our

1113
00:55:03,130 --> 00:55:07,879
Speaker 5: YouTube channel, youtube.com slash at Behind the Bastards. We love

1114
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:10,520
Speaker 5: about 40% of you, statistically speaking.