WEBVTT - Your Company Could Be Tricking You With Perks 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:04.000 Here's a thought experiment. Would you rather get paid ten 0:00:04.080 --> 0:00:09.039 thousand dollars more a year or have unlimited vacation days. 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:25.840 We're talking about the power of perks. This is game Plan. Hi. 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:28.960 I'm Rebeca Greenfield and I'm Francesco Leavy, and this week 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:31.920 we're talking about all the different perks that companies may 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:34.000 or may not offer their employees to get them to 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:37.480 take and stay at their jobs. So, when you're offered 0:00:37.479 --> 0:00:40.319 a job, you have a compensation package and that big 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:43.040 number that we all look at his salary, but there's 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:45.720 all this other stuff that comes with it that makes 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:48.279 up what you get paid, and so that can include 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:51.400 things like health insurance, which most people are accustomed to 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:54.560 getting through their job. But now companies are offering all 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:59.200 sorts of crazy things like dog gramming services or egg 0:00:59.240 --> 0:01:02.120 raising services is or anything that they can do to 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:06.240 differentiate themselves from other companies that are trying to hire you. 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:09.560 So one of these new benefits that's been popular over 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:12.840 the last few years is this unlimited vacation where companies 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:16.360 are saying you can take as much vacation as you want. Yeah, 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:18.880 all of these perks sound great, and I think that's 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:22.160 part of the idea. Companies know that it's cheaper to 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:25.880 pay for these benefits than it is to raise salaries, 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:28.679 and in fact, salaries aren't growing at the rate that 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:31.119 we've seen these perks explode, and you have to thank 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:33.959 of someone taking a job through that question. I asked, 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:36.840 which is, would you rather have a little bit more 0:01:36.880 --> 0:01:40.680 money or would you rather have unlimited vacation? What would 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:42.760 you prefer? Well, I worked on a job where we 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:45.720 had unlimited vacation, and I wasn't making very much money, 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:48.000 and I can tell you that when I was thinking 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:51.840 about leaving the job, I never considered the unlimited vacation 0:01:51.880 --> 0:01:54.760 as a reason to stay. Yeah, and intuitively, it seems 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:56.760 like nine out of ten people would probably feel the 0:01:56.800 --> 0:02:00.440 same way as you do. Like I think about unlimited 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:03.520 vacation and it sounds great, but I don't know what 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:06.000 I would actually do with that time, Like I'm not 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:08.800 going to take eighteen weeks of vacation a year. That's 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:11.079 not going to happen. And I think companies know that, 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:14.560 and they and they consider that when they're offering this benefit. However, 0:02:14.680 --> 0:02:16.440 it's very easy for me to think about what I 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:18.600 would do with ten thousand extra dollars. Yeah, that's my 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:21.560 problem with office perks, or some of these office perks, 0:02:21.560 --> 0:02:24.520 And I wrote about it in an article titled office 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:27.080 parks Are Done, and it was based on those New 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:30.320 York Times report of advertising companies that were struggling to 0:02:30.400 --> 0:02:33.240 keep around employees. So what they did was they just 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:36.600 started putting ping pong tables and calgurators in their offices, 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:42.240 which um signaled very culture yes, like we're a cool office, 0:02:42.360 --> 0:02:47.120 like we're chill blah blah blah. And it didn't really 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:50.640 work to keep people around. And that's because ping pong tables. 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:52.720 People don't care about that at work. It's not like 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:55.400 the type of perk that they actually care about. People 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:56.800 want to like their jobs, and they want to get 0:02:56.800 --> 0:02:59.000 good health insurance yeah, and they want to get paid. 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:02.160 And it turned out that advertising was losing people because 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:04.919 their starting salary was about forty dollars a year, which 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:09.120 is much lower than competitive industries. So it's kind of 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:11.400 like the context that you offer these perks in and 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:13.680 how they can attract people. So if you're working at 0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:16.239 a company that isn't offering you a lot of other 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:20.919 standard benefits and salary, you know, the unlimited vacation isn't 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:23.240 going to feel so great. I guess that's no surprise 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:24.760 that people want to have it all. They want a 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:27.480 good salary, perks, and a great place to work with 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:30.840 interesting projects. So we found someone who claims to offer 0:03:30.880 --> 0:03:33.799 all of that and more for his employees. Our guest 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:36.280 today is Jason Freed, the co founder and CEO of 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:40.120 base Camp, which makes workplace collaboration software. He offers his 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:44.600 employees competitive salaries, good health, benefits of five thousand dollar vacations, 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:47.760 stipend to spend on travel, and sixteen weeks of paid 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:55.080 parental leave. Thanks for coming on, Jason. So we just 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:58.640 mentioned all these really generous benefits that you offer. When 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:00.960 did you first decide to of beef up your perks 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:04.680 um when we could afford it? Basically, so we we didn't. 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:07.120 We didn't have this kind of generous benefits package when 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:10.040 we first launched the company back in but over the 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:12.760 years have been adding on to it. So every every year, 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:15.760 so we'll add something new if if some people request something, 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:17.920 or we have a new idea. So I'd say it's 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:20.000 it's sort of been a gradual move. The vacation thing 0:04:20.040 --> 0:04:21.960 you you mentioned, we've been doing that for about seven 0:04:22.000 --> 0:04:23.640 or eight years now, so that's kind of a long 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:26.320 standing one and a very popular one. So what were 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:29.039 the perks that you had available to employees? Are the 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:32.039 benefits when you first launched We first started the company, 0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:34.480 there's just four of us, so we didn't even think 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:36.840 about benefits or perks. It was just like can we 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:39.720 pay the bills? And then as time rolled on, we 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:42.640 we were doing quite well and we had a surplus, 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:45.200 so we're like, let's let's give that back to employees 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:47.640 in different ways. So I think one of the first 0:04:47.640 --> 0:04:50.039 things we actually did was four day work weeks. So 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:51.680 we do four day or work weeks in this summer 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:54.800 from May through September. We all had Friday off or 0:04:54.839 --> 0:04:56.560 if you want Monday off or whatever. You can take 0:04:56.600 --> 0:04:59.880 one day off a week. And that doesn't mean reduced pay. Yeah, 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:02.440 she means thirty two hours a week versus forty hours 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:03.920 a week. So that was one of the earlier ones 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:06.080 we did, and then over time we've just layered in 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:09.040 more and more and more. Was that a calculation that 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:12.039 you made when you were trying to hire people? Was 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:14.479 it hard to hire unless you could offer them something 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:18.680 like that? Um, We've never looked at perks as carrots 0:05:18.760 --> 0:05:20.960 in a sense, you know, to to hire people. We've 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:22.360 just done it because we think it's the right thing 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:25.560 to do, and we have good margins. Were a profitable company, 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:28.880 been profitable for eighteen years, and so we're always on 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:31.360 the lookout for how to spend that money on our 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:35.919 employees versus you know, in other ways. So while it 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:38.039 certainly does, you know, when we hire people, they are 0:05:38.160 --> 0:05:41.200 very impressed by the benefits package we offer. It's not 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:43.839 something we put front and center when we're hiring. It's 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:46.080 something that's, you know, someone should be good, they should 0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:47.600 want to work at base Camp, we should want to 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:50.839 work with them, and then the benefits should be cherry 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:53.640 on top versus the reason why people come here. If 0:05:53.640 --> 0:05:55.680 people come here for the benefits, they're probably coming for 0:05:55.680 --> 0:05:57.880 the wrong reason. So we kind of push it slightly back. 0:05:57.960 --> 0:05:59.400 But of course they're very proud of them, and we 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:01.320 do let people know, and people have come to know 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:05.000 that we offer very great benefits. So it might draw 0:06:05.080 --> 0:06:07.400 some people, but it's not the reason people typically want 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:10.560 to work here. I guess I'm wondering back in when 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:13.320 you first started hiring and offering these benefits, if that 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:16.960 was one of the reasons you decided to offer the perks, Oh, 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:19.600 just to get new people, Yeah, back when it was 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:22.120 a little probably harder for you when you were smaller. Yeah, 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:24.680 you know, it really was never a reason why we 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:27.400 did it. It's never it's never been to attract. It's 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:29.839 been mainly to retain. In a lot of ways, you 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:31.800 could say it's it's something we want to do to 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:35.080 keep people who are already here happy. So I do 0:06:35.200 --> 0:06:37.880 think again that some people come here or are drawn 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:39.640 to the place because they've heard of these benefits, but 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:41.360 they have to want to work here for other reasons 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:43.120 than that. So I just I'm not a big fan 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:45.839 of casting or putting carrots out there, or or trying 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:48.680 to catch people with the net of of wonderful benefits. 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:50.760 I'd rather than be interested in the work and want 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:53.479 to work here regardless, and then wile them with the 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:56.120 with the other things that we do. You mentioned that 0:06:56.160 --> 0:06:58.600 a four day work week in the summer was one 0:06:58.640 --> 0:07:02.159 of the earlier perks that you started offering your employees. 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:04.800 Why did you decide on that one? You know, it 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:08.320 was actually a bit of an experiment. We wanted to 0:07:08.360 --> 0:07:11.920 see what would happen if we worked fewer hours, and 0:07:11.960 --> 0:07:13.960 so one thing you could say is we'd get less 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:16.360 work done, but that really hasn't been the case. In 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:19.240 some cases, you'd almost wish you had an extra day 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:21.520 a week, But in most cases, what it actually forced 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:23.400 us to do was squeeze things out that we were 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:25.880 wasting time on. And so that's why we did that. 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:28.320 And of course, you know, people love it. They have 0:07:28.360 --> 0:07:30.240 three day weekends, so they get to go somewhere and 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:33.280 enjoy enjoy the weekend versus just you know, you kind 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:37.080 of your card through a week. Saturday is almost recovery day, 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:39.200 and then you feel like you have one day left 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:41.520 of of of off time is what Sunday feels like. 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:43.920 So when you have three days, people can spread it out, 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:45.760 space it out a bit, they can breathe some more. 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:47.320 They might take a long weekend or do a road 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:50.080 trip or go on a short vacation, and people come 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:52.000 back rested on Monday and ready to get back to work. 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:55.760 Are there any perks that you introduced that employees didn't 0:07:55.760 --> 0:07:59.200 really take advantage of that you then got rid of. Um, 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:02.720 we haven't gotten rid of them, but we've certainly we 0:08:02.720 --> 0:08:05.040 were surprised that more people didn't take advantage of them. 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:07.920 For example, we have a coworking or a remote working 0:08:08.520 --> 0:08:11.240 Let misstep back. Actually, our whole company is remote. Essentially, 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:14.120 we have fifty six people in the company and most 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:16.360 of them, almost all of them in fact, work remotely. 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:18.320 They either work from home or in a coworking space 0:08:18.400 --> 0:08:21.000 every every day. We have people across thirty five cities 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:24.040 around the world, and we have a coworking stipend. It's 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:26.400 a hundred bucks. We just increased to two hundred bucks 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:29.960 a month. People can use that towards coworking spaces, and 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:32.280 since most of our employees are remote, I would have 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:35.280 expected more people to use that stipend. It turns out 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:37.520 there's only a few people that actually use it. Most 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:40.040 people tend to work from home instead, either they're not 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:42.760 closer to a coworking space or they don't like coworking 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:45.439 spaces for whatever reason. Um, but I would have thought 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:47.360 more people would use that, but it turns out they don't. 0:08:47.600 --> 0:08:49.080 We just did increase it, like I said, to two 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:50.720 hundred bucks a month, so maybe that will help more 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:53.000 people use it. Maybe a hundred wasn't adequate. Um, so 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:55.000 we'll see how that shakes out. One of the ones 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:57.480 that people really use a lot is a charity match. 0:08:57.559 --> 0:08:59.640 So we do a one thousand dollar charity match every 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:01.880 year and just increase that to two thousand because people 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:04.240 were maxing out at the one thousand dollars. So I'm 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:06.480 glad to see that's happening, and I'm glad to see 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:09.440 people are taking advantage of that. What else do you 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:13.440 hear from employees about the perks that they really like? UM, 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:15.960 A lot of people like the massage benefit. So we 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:18.240 do this a hundred dollars a month for for massages, 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:21.760 but not at the office. Some companies do these massage 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:23.720 things at the office where there's like a masseuse on 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:26.960 staff or whatever. But I feel like that's faux relaxation. 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:28.920 Like if you're hunched over your desk and then you 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:30.600 go get a fifteen minute massage and you get back 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:34.240 and hunch over your desk, it's not really relaxing. UM. 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:36.320 So our massage benefit is out of the office, Like 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:38.120 you can go to a masseuse wherever you want and 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:40.720 you're off time, and we'll pay a hundred bucks a 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:43.560 month for that. Another one that's popular is we do 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:47.000 this um fresh fruits and vegetables like a CSA share 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:51.120 Community Support Agriculture Farmers market share for everybody at home 0:09:51.559 --> 0:09:53.520 for a hundred bucks a month so they can have 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:57.120 fresh fruit and vegetables for their family. And the reason 0:09:57.200 --> 0:09:58.959 we don't do this at the office Number one is 0:09:59.000 --> 0:10:01.640 we most people don't at the office. But also I 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:04.160 don't like benefits that encourage people to stay at work. 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:07.480 And many companies have a lot of perks that are 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:09.720 about keeping you in the office. It's actually sort of 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:13.560 a subversive effect. So people have you know, they'll cook dinner, 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:15.480 they'll they'll all the on staff chef and they'll and 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:18.040 they'll make dinner for people that to meet. You shouldn't 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:19.920 be eating dinner at work, Like that's the wrong place 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:22.760 to eat dinner. So we do stuff that's go home 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:26.040 and do stuff. Another popular one we do is we 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:28.839 will pay for your hobbies. So for example, if you 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:30.800 want to learn how to play guitar, like, we'll pay 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:32.480 for that. If you want to learn how to fly 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:34.959 a plane, will partially pay for flight school for you 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:37.280 if you want to Again, we make software has nothing 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:38.880 do with planes, but if we want to learn to 0:10:38.880 --> 0:10:41.720 fly a plane, will help you with that, and people 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:43.520 take advantage of this in all different kinds of ways. 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:45.760 And it's just us saying, hey, you know, be interesting, 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:47.440 do something cool with your life that you might not 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:49.040 have normally done if you didn't have this level of 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:51.280 support from your company. And so a lot of people 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:55.520 take advantage of that as well. You have rattled off 0:10:55.760 --> 0:11:00.960 like different desirable perks in the conversation, and I read 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:04.480 somewhere that you said that you're running out of ideas, 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:06.280 So what are you going to do to keep employees 0:11:06.280 --> 0:11:09.719 around next? Well, again, hopefully the people want to stick 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:11.880 around because the work is good and and the co 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:14.040 workers are good, and the environment is good and they 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:16.719 do meaningful work that no one gets in their way 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:18.280 and that sort of stuff. So that's the reason why 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:20.680 people stay here. So we're just always looking for things. 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:23.000 Things bubble up, people have questions or ask for stuff, 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:25.880 and if we think it's reasonable, we'll do it. Um 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:29.640 if it's unreasonable, we'll let people know. And uh, you know, 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:32.920 but but really, again, I just hopefully it's not the 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:34.640 perks that keep people here. It's the work and the 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:38.280 and the environment and and having full eight hours of 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:41.120 themselves every day. I think this is actually the most 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:43.880 important park we can offer, which is everybody has their 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:46.560 day to themselves. A lot of companies, You go to 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:50.679 work and people steal your time. They claim time off 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:52.920 your calendar. There's meetings, there's conference calls, there's all sort 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:54.440 of things going on, and people have no time to 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:56.520 actually do the work, so they end up working late 0:11:56.640 --> 0:11:58.520 or on the weekends, or getting the office really early 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:01.480 before no one's there. So for us, making sure people 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:04.480 have a full eight hours of themselves every day with 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:08.319 no scheduled meetings, no scheduled time sucks. Nothing like that. Um, 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:11.360 that really is the biggest perk of them all. How 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:16.120 does being based in Chicago versus Silicon Valley where there 0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:18.760 is this huge, well known talent war where a lot 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:22.720 of companies offer very elaborate perks, affect your calculation about 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:25.680 what benefits to offer. So we have nobody who works 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:29.000 for us who lives in Silicon Valley. I don't believe 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:32.200 in fighting talent wars or perks wars. I think it's 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:35.640 a losing battle, like most wars are, So we just 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:37.640 do what we think is right. It doesn't matter what 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:39.800 other people are doing. I don't look to other companies 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:41.480 to figure out where we should be or what we 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:44.640 should do. I look to ourselves and ask our employees 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:47.920 what they want. But there's for example, we don't offer equity. 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:50.240 So in a lot of companies, obviously Silicon Valley based 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:52.240 companies or tech companies, a lot of them offer equity. 0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:54.480 I don't. We don't offer equity. We have some profit 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:56.400 sharing things that we do, but we don't offer equity. 0:12:56.480 --> 0:12:58.400 So we have a different take on what it means 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:00.480 to be an employee. I don't believe in in the 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:04.160 equity angle because most of it ends up being worthless, 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:07.240 and a lot of that ends up substituted for for salary. 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:10.160 People take lower salaries in the hopes that they will 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:12.199 have this lottery ticket that will pay off one day, 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:14.080 and most of them do not. So I believe in 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:17.440 paying people real money that they can use tomorrow versus 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:21.120 something they may be possibly if the odds lineup, could 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:24.040 use in five years. Um. So we have very different 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:25.560 take on that as well. I don't like the Silicon 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:29.440 Valley culture in in around most things. I think they 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:32.079 work people too hard. I think they're unfair. Um. I 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:34.560 think the talent worst thing is kind of ridiculous. I 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:36.680 think there's too many promises being made that aren't aren't 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:38.720 kepta and are fulfilled, and it it sort of bugs me. 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:40.240 So we kind of stays far away from that as 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:42.920 we can. You said these perks are not a recruiting tool, 0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:45.920 and that you offer them because you think it's the 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:48.840 right thing to do. But do you think that there's 0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:51.760 any effect on the work or the product that your 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:55.360 company makes from offering all these perks. I think there's 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:58.920 probably something there. I you know, I don't know how 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:01.440 to measure that, certainly, I think it's it's the package. 0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:04.560 So it's we offer great salaries, so we pay top 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:07.240 five percent in the industry. We do use an industry 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:09.880 salary service to make sure that we're always paying top 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:11.959 five percent salaries. So I don't want I don't want 0:14:11.960 --> 0:14:15.280 anyone to ever leave because we don't pay them enough. Certainly, 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:17.640 some people value certain things more than others. If you 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:20.360 really really love to travel, then certainly our travel perk 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:23.680 is a wonderful benefit that you probably can't get many 0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:27.000 other places. But if you don't do good work, if 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:28.400 you're not a good person, you're not going to be 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:30.200 able to stick around anyway. So you've got to do 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:32.040 all that. You've got to care about the company, we 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:34.400 care about you, and then hopefully we can we can 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:36.640 take good care of you on these other levels as well. 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:38.440 So I do look at it as a total package. 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:41.280 Do you ever lose people to other companies or to 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:44.840 Silicon Valley companies? Yes, certainly we've lost a few people 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:47.760 over the years, and we have very good retention. Half 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:49.480 of our company so we have fifty six people. Half 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:50.800 of the company has been with us for more than 0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:53.200 five years. If you add in four years, I think 0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:56.560 it's something like sixty percent, which is again very rare 0:14:56.640 --> 0:14:59.320 in our industry. People bounce between companies every couple of years, 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:01.360 so our retention it is very high. But certainly people 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:04.680 leave as they should. Um. You know, if someone finds 0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:06.960 a better fit for their lifestyle or their company, or 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:09.040 whatever they want to do in their life or their 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:12.120 career or whatever it is, they should go somewhere else. 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:14.960 For example, we had someone UM leave for Apple. He's 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:18.360 with us for I think four years, maybe five UM, 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:21.040 and he went off to work at Apple for his life, 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:23.280 his career. He's younger guy. You wanted to try working 0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:26.640 in a big company, made perfect sense. But overall, we 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:28.600 have very high retention and we're very proud of that. 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:34.440 Is there any benefit that you have either considered or 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:38.400 just heard of other companies offering that is just two 0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:41.280 over the top, like you wouldn't consider offering it to 0:15:41.360 --> 0:15:45.680 your employees? Mm hmm. That's a really good question. Do 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:46.800 you do you know if any of you heard of 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:51.920 anything that's really interesting? Um, I mean you hear about 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:54.640 all kinds of things in Silicon Valley like people getting 0:15:54.880 --> 0:15:58.920 your dogs groomed at the office and haircuts and um, 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:01.520 you know every But I do get the sense sometimes 0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:03.640 that that companies will do things because they know it's 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:05.200 going to make waves in the press and they're going 0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:07.400 to get attention for giving that if you're the first 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:10.920 company to offer expert you'll get the press. I mean, 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:14.400 there are companies offering paying off student debt, their companies 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:19.080 offering egg freezing services. Their company is offering a lot 0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:22.280 of time off taking care of sick family members. So yeah, 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:24.840 we would we would do some of those if if, if, 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:27.600 if it came up, and we have done some things 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:30.840 like that. We do um for example, every three years 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:33.640 we do a thirty day paid sabbatical for every employee 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:35.120 the company, so it doesn't matter what role you're in. 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:37.120 By the way, I should mention that every single benefit 0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:40.280 we offer is available to every single employee. UM. Some 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:42.160 of them require you to be at base camp for 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:44.240 at least one year, but other than that, doesn't matter 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:46.440 what role you're at, what salary level you're at, all 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:48.680 the benefits are the same. UM. I think the haircut 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:50.480 stuff and whatever, some of those. You know, this is 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:53.920 a subversive, subversive stuff that bugs me sometimes because some 0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:56.720 of that is like we'll we'll have like we have 0:16:56.760 --> 0:16:59.040 a salon. We don't. But some companies who say, like 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:00.840 we have a salon at the off us so you 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:02.800 can save time. What basically what they're saying is like 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:06.240 you know, stay at the office, and it just it 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:09.040 strikes me is is work first versus benefit first? In 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:12.480 that case, Now that's not true for everybody, but a 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:14.360 lot of those sort of things are where like they'll 0:17:14.359 --> 0:17:16.400 do your dry cleaning for you to save you time, 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:18.880 Like save what time? It's usually to save you time 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:21.399 for not having to leave the office. I'm I'm open 0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:26.520 to anything that makes sense. So you touched on salary 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:29.840 and money, which I think is also a really important 0:17:29.840 --> 0:17:32.680 part of the compensation package. Why don't you just raise 0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:36.800 salaries something like five percent ten percent every year instead 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:39.280 of offering benefits. Yeah, that's a good question, and we 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:42.160 we we've considered that in the past. UM. We used 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:46.919 to offer cash bonuses every year UM, but we found 0:17:46.920 --> 0:17:50.280 out that UM if for whatever reason they were less 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:52.520 than the year before, people were disappointed. Even though it's 0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:55.560 technically free money, there's just a very human thing about 0:17:55.960 --> 0:18:00.000 getting less the next year. It just makes people feel bad. UM. 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:03.080 And so we actually limited that and replace that UM 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:07.200 with the vacation benefit. And now people have an experience 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:10.320 that they'll never forget versus just cash that went off 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:13.399 to pay off something they forgot. And that's often what happens. 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:16.760 So you give people cash or higher salary or whatever 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:18.879 it is, and they don't know where they spent that 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:21.160 extra money. Sometimes you do, but for the most part, 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:23.760 you don't just get it gets you pay bills, you 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:26.520 do this, you do that, versus hey, taking your family 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:28.960 to Morocco is something you'll never forget, or or or 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:32.199 going going on a trip and climbing an amazing mountain 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:35.200 or something like that, or or taking um the trans 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:37.520 I think it's trans Canadian Railway. We did some really 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:40.280 amazing trip across Canada on one of those trains with 0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:42.600