Speaker 1: Here's a thought experiment. Would you rather get paid ten
Speaker 1: thousand dollars more a year or have unlimited vacation days.
Speaker 1: We're talking about the power of perks. This is game Plan. Hi.
Speaker 1: I'm Rebeca Greenfield and I'm Francesco Leavy, and this week
Speaker 1: we're talking about all the different perks that companies may
Speaker 1: or may not offer their employees to get them to
Speaker 1: take and stay at their jobs. So, when you're offered
Speaker 1: a job, you have a compensation package and that big
Speaker 1: number that we all look at his salary, but there's
Speaker 1: all this other stuff that comes with it that makes
Speaker 1: up what you get paid, and so that can include
Speaker 1: things like health insurance, which most people are accustomed to
Speaker 1: getting through their job. But now companies are offering all
Speaker 1: sorts of crazy things like dog gramming services or egg
Speaker 1: raising services is or anything that they can do to
Speaker 1: differentiate themselves from other companies that are trying to hire you.
Speaker 1: So one of these new benefits that's been popular over
Speaker 1: the last few years is this unlimited vacation where companies
Speaker 1: are saying you can take as much vacation as you want. Yeah,
Speaker 1: all of these perks sound great, and I think that's
Speaker 1: part of the idea. Companies know that it's cheaper to
Speaker 1: pay for these benefits than it is to raise salaries,
Speaker 1: and in fact, salaries aren't growing at the rate that
Speaker 1: we've seen these perks explode, and you have to thank
Speaker 1: of someone taking a job through that question. I asked,
Speaker 1: which is, would you rather have a little bit more
Speaker 1: money or would you rather have unlimited vacation? What would
Speaker 1: you prefer? Well, I worked on a job where we
Speaker 1: had unlimited vacation, and I wasn't making very much money,
Speaker 1: and I can tell you that when I was thinking
Speaker 1: about leaving the job, I never considered the unlimited vacation
Speaker 1: as a reason to stay. Yeah, and intuitively, it seems
Speaker 1: like nine out of ten people would probably feel the
Speaker 1: same way as you do. Like I think about unlimited
Speaker 1: vacation and it sounds great, but I don't know what
Speaker 1: I would actually do with that time, Like I'm not
Speaker 1: going to take eighteen weeks of vacation a year. That's
Speaker 1: not going to happen. And I think companies know that,
Speaker 1: and they and they consider that when they're offering this benefit. However,
Speaker 1: it's very easy for me to think about what I
Speaker 1: would do with ten thousand extra dollars. Yeah, that's my
Speaker 1: problem with office perks, or some of these office perks,
Speaker 1: And I wrote about it in an article titled office
Speaker 1: parks Are Done, and it was based on those New
Speaker 1: York Times report of advertising companies that were struggling to
Speaker 1: keep around employees. So what they did was they just
Speaker 1: started putting ping pong tables and calgurators in their offices,
Speaker 1: which um signaled very culture yes, like we're a cool office,
Speaker 1: like we're chill blah blah blah. And it didn't really
Speaker 1: work to keep people around. And that's because ping pong tables.
Speaker 1: People don't care about that at work. It's not like
Speaker 1: the type of perk that they actually care about. People
Speaker 1: want to like their jobs, and they want to get
Speaker 1: good health insurance yeah, and they want to get paid.
Speaker 1: And it turned out that advertising was losing people because
Speaker 1: their starting salary was about forty dollars a year, which
Speaker 1: is much lower than competitive industries. So it's kind of
Speaker 1: like the context that you offer these perks in and
Speaker 1: how they can attract people. So if you're working at
Speaker 1: a company that isn't offering you a lot of other
Speaker 1: standard benefits and salary, you know, the unlimited vacation isn't
Speaker 1: going to feel so great. I guess that's no surprise
Speaker 1: that people want to have it all. They want a
Speaker 1: good salary, perks, and a great place to work with
Speaker 1: interesting projects. So we found someone who claims to offer
Speaker 1: all of that and more for his employees. Our guest
Speaker 1: today is Jason Freed, the co founder and CEO of
Speaker 1: base Camp, which makes workplace collaboration software. He offers his
Speaker 1: employees competitive salaries, good health, benefits of five thousand dollar vacations,
Speaker 1: stipend to spend on travel, and sixteen weeks of paid
Speaker 1: parental leave. Thanks for coming on, Jason. So we just
Speaker 1: mentioned all these really generous benefits that you offer. When
Speaker 1: did you first decide to of beef up your perks
Speaker 1: um when we could afford it? Basically, so we we didn't.
Speaker 1: We didn't have this kind of generous benefits package when
Speaker 1: we first launched the company back in but over the
Speaker 1: years have been adding on to it. So every every year,
Speaker 1: so we'll add something new if if some people request something,
Speaker 1: or we have a new idea. So I'd say it's
Speaker 1: it's sort of been a gradual move. The vacation thing
Speaker 1: you you mentioned, we've been doing that for about seven
Speaker 1: or eight years now, so that's kind of a long
Speaker 1: standing one and a very popular one. So what were
Speaker 1: the perks that you had available to employees? Are the
Speaker 1: benefits when you first launched We first started the company,
Speaker 1: there's just four of us, so we didn't even think
Speaker 1: about benefits or perks. It was just like can we
Speaker 1: pay the bills? And then as time rolled on, we
Speaker 1: we were doing quite well and we had a surplus,
Speaker 1: so we're like, let's let's give that back to employees
Speaker 1: in different ways. So I think one of the first
Speaker 1: things we actually did was four day work weeks. So
Speaker 1: we do four day or work weeks in this summer
Speaker 1: from May through September. We all had Friday off or
Speaker 1: if you want Monday off or whatever. You can take
Speaker 1: one day off a week. And that doesn't mean reduced pay. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she means thirty two hours a week versus forty hours
Speaker 1: a week. So that was one of the earlier ones
Speaker 1: we did, and then over time we've just layered in
Speaker 1: more and more and more. Was that a calculation that
Speaker 1: you made when you were trying to hire people? Was
Speaker 1: it hard to hire unless you could offer them something
Speaker 1: like that? Um, We've never looked at perks as carrots
Speaker 1: in a sense, you know, to to hire people. We've
Speaker 1: just done it because we think it's the right thing
Speaker 1: to do, and we have good margins. Were a profitable company,
Speaker 1: been profitable for eighteen years, and so we're always on
Speaker 1: the lookout for how to spend that money on our
Speaker 1: employees versus you know, in other ways. So while it
Speaker 1: certainly does, you know, when we hire people, they are
Speaker 1: very impressed by the benefits package we offer. It's not
Speaker 1: something we put front and center when we're hiring. It's
Speaker 1: something that's, you know, someone should be good, they should
Speaker 1: want to work at base Camp, we should want to
Speaker 1: work with them, and then the benefits should be cherry
Speaker 1: on top versus the reason why people come here. If
Speaker 1: people come here for the benefits, they're probably coming for
Speaker 1: the wrong reason. So we kind of push it slightly back.
Speaker 1: But of course they're very proud of them, and we
Speaker 1: do let people know, and people have come to know
Speaker 1: that we offer very great benefits. So it might draw
Speaker 1: some people, but it's not the reason people typically want
Speaker 1: to work here. I guess I'm wondering back in when
Speaker 1: you first started hiring and offering these benefits, if that
Speaker 1: was one of the reasons you decided to offer the perks, Oh,
Speaker 1: just to get new people, Yeah, back when it was
Speaker 1: a little probably harder for you when you were smaller. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, it really was never a reason why we
Speaker 1: did it. It's never it's never been to attract. It's
Speaker 1: been mainly to retain. In a lot of ways, you
Speaker 1: could say it's it's something we want to do to
Speaker 1: keep people who are already here happy. So I do
Speaker 1: think again that some people come here or are drawn
Speaker 1: to the place because they've heard of these benefits, but
Speaker 1: they have to want to work here for other reasons
Speaker 1: than that. So I just I'm not a big fan
Speaker 1: of casting or putting carrots out there, or or trying
Speaker 1: to catch people with the net of of wonderful benefits.
Speaker 1: I'd rather than be interested in the work and want
Speaker 1: to work here regardless, and then wile them with the
Speaker 1: with the other things that we do. You mentioned that
Speaker 1: a four day work week in the summer was one
Speaker 1: of the earlier perks that you started offering your employees.
Speaker 1: Why did you decide on that one? You know, it
Speaker 1: was actually a bit of an experiment. We wanted to
Speaker 1: see what would happen if we worked fewer hours, and
Speaker 1: so one thing you could say is we'd get less
Speaker 1: work done, but that really hasn't been the case. In
Speaker 1: some cases, you'd almost wish you had an extra day
Speaker 1: a week, But in most cases, what it actually forced
Speaker 1: us to do was squeeze things out that we were
Speaker 1: wasting time on. And so that's why we did that.
Speaker 1: And of course, you know, people love it. They have
Speaker 1: three day weekends, so they get to go somewhere and
Speaker 1: enjoy enjoy the weekend versus just you know, you kind
Speaker 1: of your card through a week. Saturday is almost recovery day,
Speaker 1: and then you feel like you have one day left
Speaker 1: of of of off time is what Sunday feels like.
Speaker 1: So when you have three days, people can spread it out,
Speaker 1: space it out a bit, they can breathe some more.
Speaker 1: They might take a long weekend or do a road
Speaker 1: trip or go on a short vacation, and people come
Speaker 1: back rested on Monday and ready to get back to work.
Speaker 1: Are there any perks that you introduced that employees didn't
Speaker 1: really take advantage of that you then got rid of. Um,
Speaker 1: we haven't gotten rid of them, but we've certainly we
Speaker 1: were surprised that more people didn't take advantage of them.
Speaker 1: For example, we have a coworking or a remote working
Speaker 1: Let misstep back. Actually, our whole company is remote. Essentially,
Speaker 1: we have fifty six people in the company and most
Speaker 1: of them, almost all of them in fact, work remotely.
Speaker 1: They either work from home or in a coworking space
Speaker 1: every every day. We have people across thirty five cities
Speaker 1: around the world, and we have a coworking stipend. It's
Speaker 1: a hundred bucks. We just increased to two hundred bucks
Speaker 1: a month. People can use that towards coworking spaces, and
Speaker 1: since most of our employees are remote, I would have
Speaker 1: expected more people to use that stipend. It turns out
Speaker 1: there's only a few people that actually use it. Most
Speaker 1: people tend to work from home instead, either they're not
Speaker 1: closer to a coworking space or they don't like coworking
Speaker 1: spaces for whatever reason. Um, but I would have thought
Speaker 1: more people would use that, but it turns out they don't.
Speaker 1: We just did increase it, like I said, to two
Speaker 1: hundred bucks a month, so maybe that will help more
Speaker 1: people use it. Maybe a hundred wasn't adequate. Um, so
Speaker 1: we'll see how that shakes out. One of the ones
Speaker 1: that people really use a lot is a charity match.
Speaker 1: So we do a one thousand dollar charity match every
Speaker 1: year and just increase that to two thousand because people
Speaker 1: were maxing out at the one thousand dollars. So I'm
Speaker 1: glad to see that's happening, and I'm glad to see
Speaker 1: people are taking advantage of that. What else do you
Speaker 1: hear from employees about the perks that they really like? UM,
Speaker 1: A lot of people like the massage benefit. So we
Speaker 1: do this a hundred dollars a month for for massages,
Speaker 1: but not at the office. Some companies do these massage
Speaker 1: things at the office where there's like a masseuse on
Speaker 1: staff or whatever. But I feel like that's faux relaxation.
Speaker 1: Like if you're hunched over your desk and then you
Speaker 1: go get a fifteen minute massage and you get back
Speaker 1: and hunch over your desk, it's not really relaxing. UM.
Speaker 1: So our massage benefit is out of the office, Like
Speaker 1: you can go to a masseuse wherever you want and
Speaker 1: you're off time, and we'll pay a hundred bucks a
Speaker 1: month for that. Another one that's popular is we do
Speaker 1: this um fresh fruits and vegetables like a CSA share
Speaker 1: Community Support Agriculture Farmers market share for everybody at home
Speaker 1: for a hundred bucks a month so they can have
Speaker 1: fresh fruit and vegetables for their family. And the reason
Speaker 1: we don't do this at the office Number one is
Speaker 1: we most people don't at the office. But also I
Speaker 1: don't like benefits that encourage people to stay at work.
Speaker 1: And many companies have a lot of perks that are
Speaker 1: about keeping you in the office. It's actually sort of
Speaker 1: a subversive effect. So people have you know, they'll cook dinner,
Speaker 1: they'll they'll all the on staff chef and they'll and
Speaker 1: they'll make dinner for people that to meet. You shouldn't
Speaker 1: be eating dinner at work, Like that's the wrong place
Speaker 1: to eat dinner. So we do stuff that's go home
Speaker 1: and do stuff. Another popular one we do is we
Speaker 1: will pay for your hobbies. So for example, if you
Speaker 1: want to learn how to play guitar, like, we'll pay
Speaker 1: for that. If you want to learn how to fly
Speaker 1: a plane, will partially pay for flight school for you
Speaker 1: if you want to Again, we make software has nothing
Speaker 1: do with planes, but if we want to learn to
Speaker 1: fly a plane, will help you with that, and people
Speaker 1: take advantage of this in all different kinds of ways.
Speaker 1: And it's just us saying, hey, you know, be interesting,
Speaker 1: do something cool with your life that you might not
Speaker 1: have normally done if you didn't have this level of
Speaker 1: support from your company. And so a lot of people
Speaker 1: take advantage of that as well. You have rattled off
Speaker 1: like different desirable perks in the conversation, and I read
Speaker 1: somewhere that you said that you're running out of ideas,
Speaker 1: So what are you going to do to keep employees
Speaker 1: around next? Well, again, hopefully the people want to stick
Speaker 1: around because the work is good and and the co
Speaker 1: workers are good, and the environment is good and they
Speaker 1: do meaningful work that no one gets in their way
Speaker 1: and that sort of stuff. So that's the reason why
Speaker 1: people stay here. So we're just always looking for things.
Speaker 1: Things bubble up, people have questions or ask for stuff,
Speaker 1: and if we think it's reasonable, we'll do it. Um
Speaker 1: if it's unreasonable, we'll let people know. And uh, you know,
Speaker 1: but but really, again, I just hopefully it's not the
Speaker 1: perks that keep people here. It's the work and the
Speaker 1: and the environment and and having full eight hours of
Speaker 1: themselves every day. I think this is actually the most
Speaker 1: important park we can offer, which is everybody has their
Speaker 1: day to themselves. A lot of companies, You go to
Speaker 1: work and people steal your time. They claim time off
Speaker 1: your calendar. There's meetings, there's conference calls, there's all sort
Speaker 1: of things going on, and people have no time to
Speaker 1: actually do the work, so they end up working late
Speaker 1: or on the weekends, or getting the office really early
Speaker 1: before no one's there. So for us, making sure people
Speaker 1: have a full eight hours of themselves every day with
Speaker 1: no scheduled meetings, no scheduled time sucks. Nothing like that. Um,
Speaker 1: that really is the biggest perk of them all. How
Speaker 1: does being based in Chicago versus Silicon Valley where there
Speaker 1: is this huge, well known talent war where a lot
Speaker 1: of companies offer very elaborate perks, affect your calculation about
Speaker 1: what benefits to offer. So we have nobody who works
Speaker 1: for us who lives in Silicon Valley. I don't believe
Speaker 1: in fighting talent wars or perks wars. I think it's
Speaker 1: a losing battle, like most wars are, So we just
Speaker 1: do what we think is right. It doesn't matter what
Speaker 1: other people are doing. I don't look to other companies
Speaker 1: to figure out where we should be or what we
Speaker 1: should do. I look to ourselves and ask our employees
Speaker 1: what they want. But there's for example, we don't offer equity.
Speaker 1: So in a lot of companies, obviously Silicon Valley based
Speaker 1: companies or tech companies, a lot of them offer equity.
Speaker 1: I don't. We don't offer equity. We have some profit
Speaker 1: sharing things that we do, but we don't offer equity.
Speaker 1: So we have a different take on what it means
Speaker 1: to be an employee. I don't believe in in the
Speaker 1: equity angle because most of it ends up being worthless,
Speaker 1: and a lot of that ends up substituted for for salary.
Speaker 1: People take lower salaries in the hopes that they will
Speaker 1: have this lottery ticket that will pay off one day,
Speaker 1: and most of them do not. So I believe in
Speaker 1: paying people real money that they can use tomorrow versus
Speaker 1: something they may be possibly if the odds lineup, could
Speaker 1: use in five years. Um. So we have very different
Speaker 1: take on that as well. I don't like the Silicon
Speaker 1: Valley culture in in around most things. I think they
Speaker 1: work people too hard. I think they're unfair. Um. I
Speaker 1: think the talent worst thing is kind of ridiculous. I
Speaker 1: think there's too many promises being made that aren't aren't
Speaker 1: kepta and are fulfilled, and it it sort of bugs me.
Speaker 1: So we kind of stays far away from that as
Speaker 1: we can. You said these perks are not a recruiting tool,
Speaker 1: and that you offer them because you think it's the
Speaker 1: right thing to do. But do you think that there's
Speaker 1: any effect on the work or the product that your
Speaker 1: company makes from offering all these perks. I think there's
Speaker 1: probably something there. I you know, I don't know how
Speaker 1: to measure that, certainly, I think it's it's the package.
Speaker 1: So it's we offer great salaries, so we pay top
Speaker 1: five percent in the industry. We do use an industry
Speaker 1: salary service to make sure that we're always paying top
Speaker 1: five percent salaries. So I don't want I don't want
Speaker 1: anyone to ever leave because we don't pay them enough. Certainly,
Speaker 1: some people value certain things more than others. If you
Speaker 1: really really love to travel, then certainly our travel perk
Speaker 1: is a wonderful benefit that you probably can't get many
Speaker 1: other places. But if you don't do good work, if
Speaker 1: you're not a good person, you're not going to be
Speaker 1: able to stick around anyway. So you've got to do
Speaker 1: all that. You've got to care about the company, we
Speaker 1: care about you, and then hopefully we can we can
Speaker 1: take good care of you on these other levels as well.
Speaker 1: So I do look at it as a total package.
Speaker 1: Do you ever lose people to other companies or to
Speaker 1: Silicon Valley companies? Yes, certainly we've lost a few people
Speaker 1: over the years, and we have very good retention. Half
Speaker 1: of our company so we have fifty six people. Half
Speaker 1: of the company has been with us for more than
Speaker 1: five years. If you add in four years, I think
Speaker 1: it's something like sixty percent, which is again very rare
Speaker 1: in our industry. People bounce between companies every couple of years,
Speaker 1: so our retention it is very high. But certainly people
Speaker 1: leave as they should. Um. You know, if someone finds
Speaker 1: a better fit for their lifestyle or their company, or
Speaker 1: whatever they want to do in their life or their
Speaker 1: career or whatever it is, they should go somewhere else.
Speaker 1: For example, we had someone UM leave for Apple. He's
Speaker 1: with us for I think four years, maybe five UM,
Speaker 1: and he went off to work at Apple for his life,
Speaker 1: his career. He's younger guy. You wanted to try working
Speaker 1: in a big company, made perfect sense. But overall, we
Speaker 1: have very high retention and we're very proud of that.
Speaker 1: Is there any benefit that you have either considered or
Speaker 1: just heard of other companies offering that is just two
Speaker 1: over the top, like you wouldn't consider offering it to
Speaker 1: your employees? Mm hmm. That's a really good question. Do
Speaker 1: you do you know if any of you heard of
Speaker 1: anything that's really interesting? Um, I mean you hear about
Speaker 1: all kinds of things in Silicon Valley like people getting
Speaker 1: your dogs groomed at the office and haircuts and um,
Speaker 1: you know every But I do get the sense sometimes
Speaker 1: that that companies will do things because they know it's
Speaker 1: going to make waves in the press and they're going
Speaker 1: to get attention for giving that if you're the first
Speaker 1: company to offer expert you'll get the press. I mean,
Speaker 1: there are companies offering paying off student debt, their companies
Speaker 1: offering egg freezing services. Their company is offering a lot
Speaker 1: of time off taking care of sick family members. So yeah,
Speaker 1: we would we would do some of those if if, if,
Speaker 1: if it came up, and we have done some things
Speaker 1: like that. We do um for example, every three years
Speaker 1: we do a thirty day paid sabbatical for every employee
Speaker 1: the company, so it doesn't matter what role you're in.
Speaker 1: By the way, I should mention that every single benefit
Speaker 1: we offer is available to every single employee. UM. Some
Speaker 1: of them require you to be at base camp for
Speaker 1: at least one year, but other than that, doesn't matter
Speaker 1: what role you're at, what salary level you're at, all
Speaker 1: the benefits are the same. UM. I think the haircut
Speaker 1: stuff and whatever, some of those. You know, this is
Speaker 1: a subversive, subversive stuff that bugs me sometimes because some
Speaker 1: of that is like we'll we'll have like we have
Speaker 1: a salon. We don't. But some companies who say, like
Speaker 1: we have a salon at the off us so you
Speaker 1: can save time. What basically what they're saying is like
Speaker 1: you know, stay at the office, and it just it
Speaker 1: strikes me is is work first versus benefit first? In
Speaker 1: that case, Now that's not true for everybody, but a
Speaker 1: lot of those sort of things are where like they'll
Speaker 1: do your dry cleaning for you to save you time,
Speaker 1: Like save what time? It's usually to save you time
Speaker 1: for not having to leave the office. I'm I'm open
Speaker 1: to anything that makes sense. So you touched on salary
Speaker 1: and money, which I think is also a really important
Speaker 1: part of the compensation package. Why don't you just raise
Speaker 1: salaries something like five percent ten percent every year instead
Speaker 1: of offering benefits. Yeah, that's a good question, and we
Speaker 1: we we've considered that in the past. UM. We used
Speaker 1: to offer cash bonuses every year UM, but we found
Speaker 1: out that UM if for whatever reason they were less
Speaker 1: than the year before, people were disappointed. Even though it's
Speaker 1: technically free money, there's just a very human thing about
Speaker 1: getting less the next year. It just makes people feel bad. UM.
Speaker 1: And so we actually limited that and replace that UM
Speaker 1: with the vacation benefit. And now people have an experience
Speaker 1: that they'll never forget versus just cash that went off
Speaker 1: to pay off something they forgot. And that's often what happens.
Speaker 1: So you give people cash or higher salary or whatever
Speaker 1: it is, and they don't know where they spent that
Speaker 1: extra money. Sometimes you do, but for the most part,
Speaker 1: you don't just get it gets you pay bills, you
Speaker 1: do this, you do that, versus hey, taking your family
Speaker 1: to Morocco is something you'll never forget, or or or
Speaker 1: going going on a trip and climbing an amazing mountain
Speaker 1: or something like that, or or taking um the trans
Speaker 1: I think it's trans Canadian Railway. We did some really
Speaker 1: amazing trip across Canada on one of those trains with
Speaker 1: the glass tops. You know, there's all sorts of amazing
Speaker 1: things that you could do that you'll never forget. I
Speaker 1: just think that's more valuable ultimately, especially when we pay people. Well,
Speaker 1: if we were cutting people's salaries back to provide these things,
Speaker 1: I think that would be unfair. It's at some point
Speaker 1: I think there's diminishing returns of an extra few thousand
Speaker 1: bucks here and there, versus actually encouraging people to take
Speaker 1: an experience and have an experience that they might not
Speaker 1: have had themselves. So it's definitely different point of view,
Speaker 1: but I think there's more value in the experience than
Speaker 1: there is in the cash man human psychology. I think
Speaker 1: it's fascinating, fascinating. Well, thank you so much for coming
Speaker 1: on and talking to us about parts, and it sounds
Speaker 1: like base Camp isn't a bad place to work. Well,
Speaker 1: thanks for having me as really fun to chat. So
Speaker 1: when I asked Jason why he doesn't just pay people
Speaker 1: more money, he brought up an interesting point, which was
Speaker 1: that after a certain salaries, so I think you have
Speaker 1: to be making enough money where you're comfortable in your
Speaker 1: lifestyle and you have to be the type of person
Speaker 1: where you're not just working to make a million jillion dollars.
Speaker 1: But at that point, more money doesn't really have that
Speaker 1: much of an impact, and that companies have to do
Speaker 1: other things to show that they want you there and
Speaker 1: to keep you there. And that's kind of where this
Speaker 1: Herk's arms race even happened. And I know he was
Speaker 1: a little bit he didn't want to say he was
Speaker 1: participating in it, but I think that is what's happening
Speaker 1: in Silicon Valley a bit. Yeah, And we should be
Speaker 1: clear that most people don't have this problem right where
Speaker 1: they're deciding between more money or more perks or they
Speaker 1: have too much of both, Like it's a it's a
Speaker 1: rarefied world where there is such a talent war, and
Speaker 1: we do think of this as something that's kind of
Speaker 1: limited to tech um where you know, you get both
Speaker 1: high pay and good benefits because your employer knows you
Speaker 1: could get up and get another job somewhere else really easily. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I actually wrote an article about this, how having bargaining
Speaker 1: power and leverage is what gets people the best benefits,
Speaker 1: and there was research that came out that showed that
Speaker 1: people who are high skilled, so people in tech, but
Speaker 1: also some other industries like finance or other white collar
Speaker 1: industries have the best benefits because they can say, look,
Speaker 1: I'm really valuable. But the research also found that there
Speaker 1: were other types of industries that had really good benefits,
Speaker 1: and those industries happened to be heavily unionized, so they
Speaker 1: had like a different type of bargaining power. So, you know, manufacturing,
Speaker 1: you don't think of the labor as being highest skilled labor,
Speaker 1: but they actually have really good benefits because they can
Speaker 1: have leverage in a different way. But again that's not
Speaker 1: the majority of the workforce. There are still a huge
Speaker 1: amount of workers who are neither unionized or in these
Speaker 1: competitive fields, and it does create those kind of have
Speaker 1: and have nots of parks. So there are some people
Speaker 1: who are getting great praternity leave and maternity leave, and
Speaker 1: then there are people have no access to pay time
Speaker 1: off right, So not everybody has access to these perks.
Speaker 1: But there is one thing that kind of seems to
Speaker 1: apply across the board to me in these conversations we've
Speaker 1: been having about benefits and things that you can get
Speaker 1: at your job, which is that it's really important to
Speaker 1: think about compensation more holistically than just money. And you know,
Speaker 1: you shouldn't go to work at a job that has
Speaker 1: pin punk tables and cool office happy hours if that's
Speaker 1: not going to make you happier at that job. But
Speaker 1: you should think carefully about what things besides money you
Speaker 1: might want out of a job, because you can negotiate
Speaker 1: for those things. Are Sally Crawcheck, who has been a
Speaker 1: guest on this podcast a couple of times, has made
Speaker 1: the point in the past that you know, if money
Speaker 1: is off the negotiating table, it doesn't mean that everything is.
Speaker 1: And you can ask for an extra week of vacation
Speaker 1: when you're you know, talking to somebody about a new
Speaker 1: job or a long distance assignment or something like that.
Speaker 1: If you know what's important to about a job, it's
Speaker 1: worth asking for those things and not just keeping it
Speaker 1: so narrowly focused on money. And I think that's a
Speaker 1: great time for us to segue too. Half Big Takes,
Speaker 1: Half Fake Takes. You can call into our hotline and
Speaker 1: leave your own half big take at two on two
Speaker 1: six seven zero one six six, And this week we
Speaker 1: have a listener with her own half bag take. Hi
Speaker 1: my name is Emily, and my half bake take is
Speaker 1: that when you leave the office for the night, possibly
Speaker 1: the worst thing you can say is good night. I
Speaker 1: think that if you say and night, it just feels
Speaker 1: like you're going to go home and just go to
Speaker 1: sleep and your day is basically over and you spent
Speaker 1: it just work. But if you say something like have
Speaker 1: a good night, you can sort of acknowledge that you're
Speaker 1: going to go do something fun after work, or even
Speaker 1: if you're just gonna go home and watch TV, you
Speaker 1: at least have some time to do what you wanted to.
Speaker 1: So I love to hear your thoughts. We love the podcast.
Speaker 1: Wow the power of two words. Yeah. So was she
Speaker 1: saying half have a good night is? Okay? Yes? But
Speaker 1: good night, good night, good night does sound like you're
Speaker 1: saying good night, yeah, good night to go to sleep.
Speaker 1: But I do like, yeah, it's like I have a
Speaker 1: life outside of work, let me have it. Yeah, good night.
Speaker 1: It does sound kind of sad, like this is the
Speaker 1: last thing you're going to do today. You worked and
Speaker 1: now you go to sleep. Yeah. I'm really into this
Speaker 1: hat big takes, So thank you Emily. Francesca. What's your
Speaker 1: not super liformed idea. Okay, I know I I've done
Speaker 1: a lot of half big takes about various days of
Speaker 1: the week, and I know I've actually also done a
Speaker 1: half big take about Mondays. But I have another one
Speaker 1: about Mondays. Lean into it. You know, I'm the day
Speaker 1: of the week girl. Um, Monday's Okay, this will be
Speaker 1: the click baity headline. It's not really true, but Mondays
Speaker 1: are the best day of the week. It's the click
Speaker 1: it's the counterintuitive with sound of meat clicking on it. Okay,
Speaker 1: they're not really the best day of the week, but
Speaker 1: they are by far not the worst. And in fact,
Speaker 1: Mondays are kind of cool. I kind of like Mondays.
Speaker 1: So Sundays are horrible. We all know this, and you
Speaker 1: spend them dreading Monday and going back to work. But
Speaker 1: once you get up and start your day on Monday,
Speaker 1: first of all, you're already in the week, so you
Speaker 1: don't have anything to dread. And then you get to
Speaker 1: work and like usually there's a lot of work to do, Like,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of stuff to get through, so it
Speaker 1: keeps you busy. The day kind of flies by, and
Speaker 1: also like you get to see your work people again
Speaker 1: and it's nice to be around people and have a
Speaker 1: reason to like to, you know, take a shower. I
Speaker 1: had this experience this morning, like you really read my mind.
Speaker 1: I just I woke up and was ready. I was
Speaker 1: just like, Okay, we're here, We're doing it. It's kind
Speaker 1: of the same feeling I have when I'm really anxious
Speaker 1: about anything like surgery or going on a roller coaster,
Speaker 1: get very anxious, like the Sunday Scaries, and then you're
Speaker 1: on it and you're like, Okay, we're in it. We're
Speaker 1: just going to deal with what we have, and you
Speaker 1: have the most energy. This is bordering a little close
Speaker 1: to therapy, but that's a really good lesson, is that
Speaker 1: the thing that you do is never going to be
Speaker 1: as bad as worrying about. Wow, I love it, Becca.
Speaker 1: What is your deeply insightful but not fully formed insight.
Speaker 1: It's a kind of a response to another half bag
Speaker 1: take we had. A caller said she really didn't like
Speaker 1: when people asked her about her weekend, and so I
Speaker 1: have kind of my half bay take about how you
Speaker 1: should deal with that. Okay, you can't really say like, oh,
Speaker 1: how is your weekend? You can't say like good, you
Speaker 1: can't just answer it with one word you have to.
Speaker 1: I think the best way to shut it down is
Speaker 1: to answer with one big thing that you did, or
Speaker 1: if it's like what do you to this one big
Speaker 1: thing you're going to do. So it's not like nobody
Speaker 1: wants to have a whole conversation about your life. Pick one,
Speaker 1: Just pick one thing, like I'm going to the beach, right,
Speaker 1: so everyone's satisfied. Yeah, what what if you didn't do anything?
Speaker 1: Because I feel like they're the code word for that
Speaker 1: is very relaxing, or like I just edged out it
Speaker 1: was really chill, and that means you straight up watch
Speaker 1: TV a weekend. Just say like, so I ordered in
Speaker 1: and watched them Netflix. Yeah, or in your theory, if
Speaker 1: you're picking one thing, it could be like you just
Speaker 1: pick the best Netflix watched and you're like, I watched
Speaker 1: episode three of Game of Throne season four, and this
Speaker 1: is exactly what it was about. Because I think people
Speaker 1: are just craving a little conversation. I don't really care
Speaker 1: about your life, so just give them a little nibble,
Speaker 1: pick one thing, move it along. I love it. And
Speaker 1: this has been half bag takes, half baked takes. Thanks
Speaker 1: for listening to another episode of Game Plan. You can
Speaker 1: find me on Twitter at rs Greenfield and I'm at
Speaker 1: Francesca today. You can tweet your half bag, takes at us,
Speaker 1: or any other thoughts you have. You can also call
Speaker 1: us and leave a voicemail at two to six zero one.
Speaker 1: If you want to hear from us more. Sign up
Speaker 1: for our newsletter. You can find it at bloomberg dot
Speaker 1: com slash Newsletters. If you like our show, please go
Speaker 1: to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen, subscribe, rate, and
Speaker 1: review us. Every review helps more people find out about
Speaker 1: our podcast. The show was produced by Liz Smith and
Speaker 1: Magnus Hendrickson. The Head of Podcasts is Alec McCabe and
Speaker 1: we'll see you next week. Bye.