1 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio and Unbuss Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, 3 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: and this is there Are No Girls on the Internet. 4 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:19,119 Speaker 1: I know. It's been a while since I've been in 5 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:21,279 Speaker 1: your ears, and I've missed it so much. And I 6 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:24,080 Speaker 1: hope you've been enjoying your summer. If you're anything like me, 7 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: you got vaccinated, you were looking forward to having some 8 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: kind of normal ish summer, whatever that means. But then 9 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: not so much. Cases started rising again, and vaccine misinformation 10 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,880 Speaker 1: is still running rampant on social media platforms. So even 11 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: though we're on hiatus, I couldn't stay away. I just 12 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 1: have to come talk about it with y'all. Okay, So 13 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: here's what's going on. A new report confirmed that the 14 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: most viewed article on Facebook was a news story that 15 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:53,959 Speaker 1: baselessly suggested that the COVID nineteen vaccine may have led 16 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: to a doctor's death. This story was the most viewed 17 00:00:57,120 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: link on Facebook in the United States for the first 18 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: three months of TOYE, when the pandemic was still very 19 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,119 Speaker 1: much a thing. But don't worry. Facebook did the right thing. 20 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: They quickly went public about their platform pushing this kind 21 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: of deadly anti vaccine misinformation and apologized for the harm 22 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: that it caused. Oh wait, actually just kidding. What they 23 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: actually did was refused to publish the report because they 24 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 1: worried it would make their company look bad. This is 25 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: according to The New York Times, Platforms have got to 26 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: get a handle on COVID misinformation if we're ever going 27 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: to have a chance of getting back to some semblence 28 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: of normal life. And it made me want to revisit 29 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: the story of the Foma Uzoma. Now we heard from 30 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 1: a Foma this past winner. She's a black public policy 31 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,680 Speaker 1: and technology professional who was fighting to keep health misinformation 32 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: all social media platforms way before the COVID nineteen pandemic 33 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: ever began. And I think her story really says a 34 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: lot about what social media platforms need to be doing 35 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: to her medical misinformation about vaccines and COVID to keep 36 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: us all safe. So let's listen to the story of 37 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: the Foma Uzoma versus misinformation. I believe black women are 38 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: the future of the Internet. Much of the work to 39 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: create that future, a safer, more inclusive one, has been 40 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: built by black women. But we need to acknowledge the 41 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: sad reality that that work doesn't always come easy for 42 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 1: the black women trying to build better platforms and push 43 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:17,639 Speaker 1: for changes in systems and institutions. That work comes at 44 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: a huge personal cost. This is something that tech policy 45 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,919 Speaker 1: expert E Foma Zoma knows all too well. My full 46 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: name is i Foma Zoma, and I'm the founder and 47 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: principle of the consulting firm that's called earth Seed, which 48 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: is actually named after the community that Octavia Butler created 49 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 1: in Parable of the Sower and Parable of the Talents 50 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: in Octavia Butler's novel Parable of the Sour. Earth Seed 51 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: is a community based around the idea that God has changed. 52 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: It's all about the future and the possibilities of what 53 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: can be and knowing I Foma, this name is no accident. 54 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:58,639 Speaker 1: Before she started her own firm, I Foma was already 55 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,959 Speaker 1: an early champion of chain, busy architect in the future 56 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: of the Internet, an early higher on pinterest Public Policy Team. 57 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 1: Her work set Pinterest apart, and headline after headline applaud 58 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: and Pinterest for taking early action to keep dangerous diss 59 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 1: and misinformation off their platform. You'd think this would make 60 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:19,799 Speaker 1: her a superstar within the organization, but like so many 61 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 1: black women who fight for change. That wasn't the case. 62 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: As things were going south, I was still doing the work. 63 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: Misinformation is kind of a trendy thing now, but back 64 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: when the fomo was hired at Pinterest, people weren't really 65 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: talking about the need to keep it off platforms. She 66 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 1: hit the ground running as soon as she was hired 67 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: and basically designed an early framework of moderation policies to 68 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 1: keep dangerous diss and misinformation off Pinterest, first by banning 69 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: prolific conspiracy theorist Alex Jones and later health misinformation. My 70 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: first week on the job, I pushed our g C 71 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: and our trust and Safety team and the content policy 72 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: team to make the decision that we ended up making 73 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: on Alex Jones and removing him entirely from the platform 74 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: at a time. This is in at a time when 75 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: he was not really being addressed by any platform, And 76 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: the argument I made at that point um was first 77 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: that he already violated a lot of the policies that 78 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 1: we had his content um and two important things. One 79 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: that if you're acting on misinformation. At that point, no 80 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:34,039 Speaker 1: other platform had a misinformation policy other than Medium. And 81 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:36,840 Speaker 1: my point was, well, if we're making decisions because we 82 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: know content is misinforming, we have a misinformation policy. We 83 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 1: need to just write it and be clear and stand 84 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: in our convictions and post it on the site. A 85 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: few researchers will pick it up, others may pick it up, 86 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:54,359 Speaker 1: most people won't. But I do think when you're making decisions, 87 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: you need to be transparent about what those decisions are 88 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 1: and why and so from there and the Paul see 89 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 1: that came out of that, then I was able to 90 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:06,279 Speaker 1: push UM for a lot of the health misinformation work 91 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: that I did, which started with getting a landscape analysis. 92 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: That's something that I feel has been missing from a 93 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 1: lot of platforms. If you don't know what's on your 94 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: platform and others don't know, how do you address it 95 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 1: properly if you don't know who it's impacting. Because most 96 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:28,840 Speaker 1: misinformation is not an equal opportunity harm. It's mostly targeted 97 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: at people of color and at women, and when you're 98 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: looking at health misinformation, it's especially start and so having 99 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,359 Speaker 1: that information, I was then UM able to push for 100 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: things that I was retaliated against because of But that's 101 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:47,280 Speaker 1: a whole other set of stories. Moderation on a platform 102 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: like Pinterest is no easy thing, but he film a 103 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: champion moderation policies that targeted how savvy disinformers actually can be. 104 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: For instance, there's huge amounts of inaccurate content about abortion 105 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: targeting the black community. Team they used rhetoric like black 106 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 1: jettocide and accused Planned Parenthood of wanting to abort black babies, 107 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 1: using imagery of black moms and babies to target black folks. 108 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: But there's also huge overlap in the anti choice movement 109 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 1: and the white supremacist movement, so some of this content 110 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: is actually produced by white supremacist groups trying to target 111 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: the Black community. Efoma's ability to build out thoughtful moderation 112 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 1: policies around this kind of complex content was bolstering pinterest 113 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 1: public reputation as a company who stood apart as an 114 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: early model of what it looked like to build safer 115 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: and more ethical platforms. They were championed in the press, 116 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: but all the while, I Foma was being mistreated internally 117 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 1: by her own colleagues for the very work that allowed 118 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:44,039 Speaker 1: Pinterest to be seen as a success story. So few 119 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:47,159 Speaker 1: platforms had any kind of public facing policy around misinformation 120 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: and disinformation, and back then, I feel like Pinterest was 121 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: really able to set themselves apart at least from someone 122 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: from the outside looking in. And you were doing so 123 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 1: much of that work all the while they were making 124 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:00,479 Speaker 1: your life harder for doing it. You know, how do 125 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: you fit with that? Um? With a lot of peace 126 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,359 Speaker 1: that karma is real, um and it will come back 127 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: to get them. But but also that was one of 128 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: the reasons why I had to go public about the 129 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: retaliation that I faced when I raised pay discrimination concerns 130 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: about the docks sing that I experienced from a white 131 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: male supremacist who happened to also work at Pinterest after 132 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: I pushed for decisions to be made around white supremacist 133 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: content that had existed on the platform. There are a 134 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 1: lot of intersections, as you know, with misinformation, and so 135 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 1: even though pinterest was most well known because of a 136 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: health misinformation work that I did, we took a lot 137 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: of steps to address other types of misinformation. And where 138 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: those two I guess circles and event diagram met was 139 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: on an anti choice site that had been posting misinformation 140 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: around birth control and access to abortion services being targeted 141 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: specifically at black communities to uh push eugenics agenda from 142 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:20,559 Speaker 1: the pro choice movement just and the ways in which 143 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: the misinformation aligned I pushed internally that like this is 144 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: this is why we have to look at misinformation in general. 145 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: We have to look at the specific ways in which 146 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: it it harms people. But if you just take a well, 147 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: this is an opinion point of view, then you're missing 148 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 1: that this is both health misinformation and it's also political 149 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:48,559 Speaker 1: because it's targeted at a group using language and using imagery, 150 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:52,239 Speaker 1: because they're very good at using images of black mothers 151 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: and black children on these websites that are run entirely 152 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: by white supremacists, that you may miss some of the 153 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 1: contact if you only look at the content and not 154 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: what their entire website is pushing. Well, especially on a 155 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: platform like Pinterest that is so visual. You know you 156 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 1: might be on there because you're designing a new nursery, 157 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: you're planning a wedding. You're not necessarily primed to be 158 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: hit with content that could be racially charged or politically charged, 159 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: or be delivering health misinformation. You know your guard is down, 160 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: and that's why it was particularly harmful. And that was 161 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: my even though the platform had never really done anything 162 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: public in the policy space, wasn't certainly not known by 163 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: any of the reporters I ended up UM working with 164 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 1: about policy decisions. One of the reasons why I felt 165 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: so strongly about this is it's a platform that was 166 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: going towards I p O at the time that I 167 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: had started, so I started pre I p O and 168 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: part of the messaging around that is where a platform 169 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: with eight and ten moms in the US on here. 170 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 1: Lots of women use the platform around the world, and 171 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,839 Speaker 1: women they're often decision makers when it comes to financial 172 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: choices for their households. So it's a great platform for advertisers. 173 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: But at the same time, that's what made it a 174 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: prime target for misinformation purveyors because you have a captive 175 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 1: audience folks who are not a tune to looking for 176 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: miss and disinformation because they're not on Facebook, they're not 177 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: on Twitter, they're in a place that feels safe to them, 178 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: and so they're the perfect opportunity to then hawk whatever 179 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: goods you're selling. A point that I made often because 180 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: I get invited by the w h O, CDC and 181 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: others to talk about this health misinformation work UM that 182 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: they had not thought about it as much is the 183 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 1: financial incentives that are tied to a lot of misinformation, 184 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: whether it's Alex Jones selling his nonsense T shirts and 185 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: supplements and whatever else. These people are scam artists. That's 186 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: their number Their number one job is scamming folks. They 187 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 1: use the values that people have, they use the fears 188 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: that people have to then sell their products. But at 189 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: the end of the day, these are spammers and scammers, 190 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 1: and so you need to also be looking at what 191 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: it is that they're trying to push on your platform. 192 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:22,079 Speaker 1: For almost every single health misinformation site, they were selling supplements. 193 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: So if you would address dangerous supplements on the platform 194 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: as spam, why would you not consider this at the 195 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: same level of harm to the platform and ultimately harm 196 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 1: to legitimate advertisers. I think that we're so used to 197 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 1: thinking about scammers as people, you know, selling fake Gucci 198 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:45,719 Speaker 1: on the street, and like, no, it can people can 199 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 1: can scam online and they're misleading you in order to 200 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 1: to get you to buy whatever bullshit product they're hocking. 201 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 1: I would actually argue that the person selling the Gucci 202 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: handbag that's fake, that's not harmful. You get a cheaper 203 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: bag if it's made well, it looks pretty good, like 204 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: you get a deal. They get a deal Gucci doesn't 205 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,559 Speaker 1: get a deal, but what do they need one for? Um? 206 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: But that's not harmful in the same way that telling parents, 207 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: and especially at the point at which most parents make 208 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:20,959 Speaker 1: decisions about vaccines in the last trime, master before they 209 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 1: have the kid, that they instead of getting a vaccine 210 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 1: for their child, which will save their child's life, they 211 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: should instead go buy your vitamin case supplement. That is 212 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: so harmful and dangerous in a way that we need 213 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: to take it more seriously. It's not a difference of opinion. 214 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: It's actually costing people's lives definitely. And I think to 215 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: your point about how many moms are on the platform, 216 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:47,679 Speaker 1: you know, as we go into talking about you know, 217 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 1: vaccine rollout for COVID and things like that, it is 218 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: a lot of times moms who are making health decisions 219 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,319 Speaker 1: for the family. And so if moms are being inundated 220 00:12:56,400 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: with really harmful health misinformation on this platform where they 221 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: think they're going to be safe, it is a real 222 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: problem that could could have a real human cause. And 223 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, the person scamming fake Gucci belt on 224 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 1: the street, other than not giving Gucci more money, which 225 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: frankly I'm not really that mad at you know, we 226 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: have to look at the kind of harm that these 227 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: platforms can really be responsible for pushing on communities who 228 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:27,079 Speaker 1: are oftentimes already marginalized or underrepresented. That's exactly right. The 229 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: day of the insurrection, as pro Trump mobs swarmed the capital, 230 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 1: one of whom was wearing a shirt reading Camp Auschwitz. 231 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: Microsoft owned tech firm get Hub fired a Jewish employee 232 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: for posting stay safe, Homies, there's Nazis about in a 233 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 1: company slack channel. The company eventually reversed our decision and 234 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 1: apologized to the employee after an investigation, but even still, 235 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: it establishes a pretty concerning dynamic when we're marginalized employees 236 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 1: are punished for correctly identifying white supremacists. EFOMA can relate, 237 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: You're actually punished for speaking up about white supremacists. Yeah, 238 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: and not only punished. I was personally targeted. So the 239 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: story I was referring to earlier, the white supremacist colleague 240 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: who wasn't someone I worked with closely, but worked on 241 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: the engineering side of trust and safety, I saw a 242 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: message that I posted in exactly the right place for 243 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: me to post. It wasn't a general conversation area, but 244 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 1: I posted that a pretty popular white supremacist was in 245 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 1: fact a white supremacist. I linked to the content that 246 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: violated our policies that was of concern, and then I 247 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: put in a note as well that, uh, the platform 248 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: or the folks working on trust and safety should be 249 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: mindful of these terms, like here's a set of terms 250 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: that are dog whistles unless you're a white supremacist or 251 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: unless you're the target of the white supremacist harm. And 252 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: these are what we need to look out for, because 253 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: these folks aren't going to title there videos on YouTube 254 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: as Hey, I'm a white supremacist and this is my view. 255 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 1: It's going to say something about population control around uh, 256 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: white replacement theory, which a lot of folks are not 257 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 1: aware of, but is a huge red flag and is 258 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: a calling card for many white supremacists. A few months 259 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: after posting that warning, sharing the context and the content, 260 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: which was my job as the public policy person who 261 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: helped inform content safety decisions that we made, I was 262 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: then um dots this person docs me and two other 263 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: women another one who is a black woman and a 264 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: woman that he a white woman. He assumed to be 265 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: a lesbian um and we only know that because of 266 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 1: the comments that came up on Gateway Pundit and in 267 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: other places where we had been targeted and for me, 268 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: I guess he took a particular disliking to me and 269 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: so shared my phone number as well and all of 270 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: the identifying information that you would need to find me. 271 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: At this point, I had already separate from all of 272 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 1: this and separate from the work I was doing. I 273 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: had already raised paid discrimination complaints with UH the appropriate 274 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: leadership at the company, my manager, managers, manager, HR, etcetera, 275 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: and was getting serious pushback from them. And so then 276 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 1: when I was docked, the lack of response from them 277 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: to take care of my safety to address what was 278 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: going on was so apparently part of the retaliation that 279 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: I had already been facing on the paid discrimination side 280 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: UH that it was pretty traumatizing being at a company 281 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: where it was clear I was not safe. I was 282 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: not necessarily safe at home because it's not very difficult 283 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: to track someone down once you have enough information UH, 284 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: and then was also dealing with everything else at the 285 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: same time. So I really related to the get hub 286 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: story because of the docks sne that I experienced and 287 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:08,120 Speaker 1: the lack of RESPONSI soe Foma was facing egregious targeted 288 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: harassment from her own colleagues in retaliation for her work 289 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: that garnered Pinterest so much positive attention, but she got 290 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 1: other kinds of internal pushback to a sick A quick break, 291 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,479 Speaker 1: and we're back. In an earlier episode of There Are 292 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet, we explored how the racial 293 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 1: justice group Color of Change advocated for Pinterest to change 294 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: their policies around slave plantations that were being advertised as 295 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: romantic wedding venues on the platform. The company was widely 296 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 1: celebrated for this change, which was led by Epoma, but 297 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: that didn't keep them from retaliating against her for it. 298 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: Later on that same year, uh Color of Change had 299 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:58,879 Speaker 1: come to me because I was the liason with outside groups, 300 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: academics and civil society on content safety issues. They had 301 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: come to me sharing that they were still seeing slave 302 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 1: plantations pop up as wedding venues and suggestions for weddings. 303 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,400 Speaker 1: If you know Pinterest or you know someone who uses it, 304 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,719 Speaker 1: the number one use of the platform might be planning 305 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 1: a wedding or preparing for some sort of celebration, and 306 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: I agreed with them, it's completely inappropriate that the platform 307 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: would be pushing concentration camps, which is what they were, 308 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 1: and torture sites as a celebration venue. And so I 309 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: brought it to our content safety team with my recommendation, 310 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: shared exactly what Color of Change had shared with me, 311 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,919 Speaker 1: and then I got pushed back from the head of 312 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:50,400 Speaker 1: that team, particularly the head of content policy, who happens 313 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 1: to still be there and still speaking on behalf of 314 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 1: the company. Um. What I later found out was that 315 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 1: she was married on a plantation. She never shared that 316 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 1: in all of the pushback that I got, but she 317 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 1: ended up working with my manager, who had already been 318 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 1: retaliating against me, to ding me on my performance review. So, 319 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 1: even though Pinterest ended up doing exactly what I recommended, 320 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:21,679 Speaker 1: ended up getting praised in forty plus headlines because of 321 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: the decision to stop promoting slave plantations and the decisions 322 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 1: that I had pushed to be made, I was ding 323 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: on my performance review, which affected my pay Wow. First 324 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: of all, the revealed that this woman had her own 325 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 1: I mean, yike her own I mean we did an 326 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 1: episode about We spoke to Jade from Color of Change 327 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: in an earlier episode about Pinterest in the decision to 328 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: not have not promote plantation weddings, and just like what 329 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,919 Speaker 1: you said, right, these companies get to enjoy the positive 330 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 1: press that makes them look like a woke company or 331 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 1: a company that really cares. Like I heard so many 332 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,120 Speaker 1: times people say, well, Pinterest is a company that has 333 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 1: a you know, like they are a company that prizes 334 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 1: like empathy, YadA, YadA, YadA. And then to hear the 335 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: inner workings of how this happened is so it's such 336 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 1: a disconnect I feel, it really is, you know, it 337 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: really illustrates how so many different levels can come together 338 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 1: to suppress and push out and harm a black woman 339 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 1: for doing her job right, like this was your job. 340 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,200 Speaker 1: It's not like it's not like you were overstepping bounces. 341 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 1: Is what you were hired to do. And I also 342 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: think this, you know, and this is the conversation that 343 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,479 Speaker 1: feel comes up again and again and again where black 344 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 1: women are punished for like doing the right thing, for 345 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 1: practicing public courage, public morality, for doing their jobs trying 346 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: to make things safer or better. Someone else gets to 347 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,400 Speaker 1: enjoy the benefits of that work. But that work is 348 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: at best, you know, unappreciated, underappreciated, at worst, dangerous and 349 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:08,679 Speaker 1: risky for your own personal safety, right like you? Like 350 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: you did this work of making Pinterest a safer, better 351 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,880 Speaker 1: platform at great personal cost and at great risks your 352 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:19,679 Speaker 1: own safety. Yep, And and all of those things happened. 353 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: Not only was I paid unfairly and I had to 354 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 1: pursue legal action because of that, I was then also 355 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 1: my life was certain. So yeah, I got all of 356 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: it while I was there. And people often like to 357 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 1: call black women canaries in the coal mine or whatever 358 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: term they want to use. But I would like to 359 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: just do my job, get paid fairly, and not be 360 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:50,399 Speaker 1: put in danger for for doing the right thing for 361 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 1: a company. I mean, uh, something like half more than 362 00:21:55,520 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: half of the articles that were written about pinterest in 363 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:04,399 Speaker 1: the month before the public offering which happened in April 364 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 1: of referenced my work. So not only did my work 365 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,919 Speaker 1: have value to the actual users of the platform, end 366 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: up pushing Facebook and others to have to respond about 367 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:20,160 Speaker 1: why they weren't addressing health misinformation, particularly around vaccines. And 368 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: remember that was during a different health issue, a measles 369 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: outbreak measles outbreaks on the East and West coast. Uh, 370 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: So not only did it have that sort of impact, 371 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 1: which is a slam dunk if you're in a policy space. 372 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 1: But it also had material benefit to the company in 373 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 1: the form of the I p O. And I still 374 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:46,360 Speaker 1: was not treated fairly. Yeah, and the company still hasn't 375 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 1: actually acknowledged that anything they did in my case was wrong. 376 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: You see, like someone who has a lot of peace 377 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:56,920 Speaker 1: for how horribly you were treated, I've had a lot 378 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 1: of rage as well. You know, I really do believe 379 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,640 Speaker 1: in karma, and I believe it's not just you, It'll 380 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: be the next seven generations that are hit with whatever 381 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 1: evil you put out into the world. And so I 382 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 1: take the long view. I'm like Aria from Game of Thrones. 383 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:21,440 Speaker 1: I'm making my way through the list, but you'll get 384 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 1: yours eventually. That's that's my long view. And then also 385 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: I'm a student of history and political science. None of 386 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 1: this is new. What I'm dealing with is not new. 387 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 1: It's not a unique to my situation. Does it suck, Yes, 388 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 1: hasn't been miserable. Yes, I've paid physical consequences for it 389 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 1: because my actual health was impaired for the two plus 390 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: years I was in a legal fight with them. But 391 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: like I'm good at the end of the day, I'm 392 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 1: at peace with every single decision I've made. I've never 393 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,880 Speaker 1: lied about what I experienced there, and so when they're 394 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,679 Speaker 1: out here lying about what they did to me um 395 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,919 Speaker 1: and getting called out on lies, that is enough for me. 396 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 1: I Foma publicly resigned from Pinterest this past summer, when 397 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,719 Speaker 1: racial justice protests were happening all over the globe and 398 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: brands were rushing to put out statements in support for 399 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:23,159 Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter. She tweeted, I'm an alum of Yale, Google, Facebook, 400 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,920 Speaker 1: Washington Post, Tech, et cetera, and recently decided to leave Pinterest, 401 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: which just declared solidarity with Black Lives Matter. What a joke. 402 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,880 Speaker 1: As a black woman, seeing Pinterest middle of the night, 403 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 1: Black Employees Matter statement made me scratch my head after 404 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:39,679 Speaker 1: I just fought for a full year to be paid 405 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 1: and leveled fairly. A year in which I was docked 406 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: by a white male colleague. He shared my cell phone number, 407 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: my photo, and my name was a violently racist, misogynistic 408 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: part of the Internet, followed by a dangerously inadequate response 409 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: from Pinterest. I continued to serve as the leader and 410 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: spokesperson for pinterest biggest public policy wins kept all of 411 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: the above quiet for quote nationalism in the hope that 412 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,400 Speaker 1: Pinterest would do the right thing. Instead, they doubled down 413 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 1: on retaliation. After he Foma left Pinterest, former CEO franc 414 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:15,160 Speaker 1: wib Brower, who was white, accused Pinterest of gender discrimination. 415 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 1: In December, Pinterest paid Brower twenty two point five million 416 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: dollars to settle her lawsuit. She says she was encouraged 417 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,120 Speaker 1: to speak out against the discrimination she fasd at Pinterest 418 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 1: after he Foma and Erica Shmizu Banks, another black former 419 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:33,680 Speaker 1: Pinterest employee, spoke out first. Only they never got any 420 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 1: big payout if I remember correctly, you didn't even get 421 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,919 Speaker 1: a year of severance from Pinterest, that's correct, and laid 422 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: the groundwork she was not going to speak up publicly, 423 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: and actually in the medium post where she didn't reference 424 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 1: to us when she first went public. Um, but she 425 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 1: herself said that women had come to her over the 426 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: course of her career and she actually had not been 427 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 1: a helpful ally to other women. So I think she 428 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: said everything. Um, But yeah, no, I I what was 429 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: crazy about that situation is people got to see in 430 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,719 Speaker 1: real time what it means to lead a movement and 431 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: then be left out of whatever progress comes. I mean, 432 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,160 Speaker 1: when you think about me too, who has me too 433 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,439 Speaker 1: actually benefited? If not white women, maybe maybe in a 434 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 1: sense all women, but it is most benefited white women. 435 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 1: And yet it was started by Toronto Burke, a black woman. 436 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: So this is not it's not new, it's not I 437 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,879 Speaker 1: didn't speak up because I expected them to do the 438 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 1: right thing. I I from the jump expected them not. 439 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: I expected them to denigrate my name, my experience, which 440 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 1: they've done all of that, and then not to pay 441 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: me what they owe me. But seeing it all happen 442 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:58,719 Speaker 1: in front of everyone, I think was a lesson, not 443 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:00,919 Speaker 1: only for the folks who were watching it and just 444 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: expecting that the right thing would happen, but then also 445 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: some of the reporters who worked on the story. And 446 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,239 Speaker 1: we're the very first ones to reach out and be like, 447 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 1: how is it possible that you? Like, I literally remember 448 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: talking to you and then talking to her several months later. 449 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 1: You are the reason why she came forward, You are 450 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 1: the reason why she had a strong case, and then 451 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: this happens. Yeah, for better or for worse, it always 452 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: seems that black women we are the ones build, like 453 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,359 Speaker 1: we're the ones building and then other people are the 454 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,239 Speaker 1: ones who are benefiting. And I think I see that 455 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 1: in politics, I see that in tech, I see that 456 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 1: in so many different It just seems to be you know, 457 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: I at this point it almost you know it is 458 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: what it is. But like that seems to be our 459 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: lot on this on this earth, like building things that 460 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: we then don't get to to use ourselves, right Like. 461 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,959 Speaker 1: I think it was this writer Clarissa Brooks who won 462 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,640 Speaker 1: wrote like, I, as a black woman, I don't want 463 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 1: my back to be used as a bridge to a 464 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 1: world and I'll never see right's Like I feel like, 465 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 1: I feel like that is our lot, and I see 466 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 1: it particularly in tech, but in so many different different avenues. Yep. 467 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: And that's why I even though uh, this was painful 468 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 1: personally painful of course, to have been the one who 469 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 1: experienced all of this and then have someone else benefit 470 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: from it, it was instructive for everyone to see it 471 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: and to see the timeline and how quickly and the 472 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: different way in which they responded to her. And then 473 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: also I think it was a helpful lesson for people 474 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 1: who considered themselves allies to see as well, because there 475 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 1: were a lot of people who think of themselves as 476 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 1: allies who saw it, and we're like, wait, what, how 477 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 1: is it possible that this is happening. This happens all 478 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: of the time. You just don't usually see the dollar 479 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: amount that's attached to the progress that certain people get 480 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 1: and others do not. More after a quick break, let's 481 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 1: get right back into it. I do have this feeling 482 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: that there is this underlying assumption that black women like 483 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: like tech and the internet on all of these domains, 484 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 1: or it's like not our rightful domain, so we should 485 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: not We are not able to expect experiences that are 486 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: not harmful in these spaces, And I think for me, 487 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 1: it's kind of this vicious cycle where that dynamic is 488 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 1: mirrored at tech companies and so black women engineers, black 489 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 1: women technologists are b are pushed out of these companies 490 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 1: and are not are not being listened to, and thus 491 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: these platforms are not able to to prioritize our safety. 492 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: So it's like I feel like we probably in my mind, 493 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 1: will never address the true harm that platforms have been 494 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 1: responsible for if these tech companies cannot figure out a 495 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: way to really have black women be meaningfully centered and heard. 496 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 1: Because it just seems like this like horrible cycle. I'm 497 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 1: not sure if this makes any sense, but um no, 498 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: it makes complete sense. And it's not a lack of 499 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: figuring it out, it's a lack of desire they I 500 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: said to I think it was Charlie worzel Row column 501 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: a few months ago about Facebook and it may be 502 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: being a lost cause, and I said, platforms reflect the 503 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: people who lead them. That you're only seeing on Facebook, 504 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: on Twitter, on Pinterest, wherever, what the people who lead 505 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 1: those platforms want you to see. And so if they're 506 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 1: operating in a white supremacist structure and worldview and that 507 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: is where their actual interests aligned, that's what we're going 508 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 1: to see on the platform. So none of this is 509 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: by accident. None of this is all of a sudden 510 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: out of control. This is exactly what they designed, working 511 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: in the ways that they want it to work. Yeah, 512 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:09,719 Speaker 1: it always seems to come back to that question of 513 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: is this an issue of they can't fix this or 514 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 1: an issue of they won't fix this. It seems like 515 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 1: tech leaders have made some deliberate choices about what to prioritize, 516 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 1: and the example I it makes usually the audiences that 517 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 1: I give this or share this analogy with our health focus, 518 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 1: public health professionals, experts, etcetera. And I say, if you 519 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 1: want to understand how non accidental any of this is, 520 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: think about pornography. How often do you randomly encounter porn 521 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: on Facebook or Twitter or YouTube or wherever else? Not 522 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 1: that often, not often, It's not often that happened. And 523 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: yet you see misinformation every other post, you see hate 524 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 1: every other post. There's a financial reason for that. Advertisers 525 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 1: have said they don't want pornography next their content, and 526 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 1: so what have platforms done poured every single resource into 527 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 1: making sure that's the case. They've made a choice here, 528 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 1: and the choice is not on the side of safety. 529 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 1: I would argue that if it's legal consenting adult pornography, 530 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 1: that is way less harmful to randomly encounter on a 531 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: platform than health, misinformation or Nazi content. You have to 532 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: ask some questions about priorities, you really do, yep, And 533 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 1: the priorities are clear in all of our experiences on 534 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: these platforms. I think a lot of black women on 535 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 1: the Internet have just come to internalize this idea that 536 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 1: when it comes to experiences online or on technology or 537 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 1: on the Internet, we just cannot expect to have experiences 538 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 1: that feel safe, and I want to get us to 539 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 1: a place where we can rethink the kinds of experiences 540 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 1: that we actually can't expect from the Internet and from text. 541 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 1: Bass I agree, and that's the basis of all of 542 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 1: the work that I have done, the work that I'm 543 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: doing now through my consulting firm on tech accountability, whether 544 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 1: it's the health misinformation space or whether it's on the 545 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:07,479 Speaker 1: organizing side and providing protections for whistle bars UM. And 546 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: I think it's it's a conversation that it's unfortunate that 547 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 1: we have to bear the burden of since we're the 548 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 1: people who are harmed by it. But even just a 549 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: few days ago, I was part of a conversation on 550 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 1: Clubhouse UM around content moderation and around the decisions that 551 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: platforms made to deep platform Donald Trump. And before we 552 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: went into that conversation, I sent a note to everyone 553 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: on the panel saying Clubhouse is a place that I 554 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 1: am not frequenting by choice because black women are often 555 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: targeted and people use very loud dog whistles basically just 556 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 1: short of using the N word and using straight up 557 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 1: misogynistic language. But there's a ton of that going on, 558 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 1: and I put the onus, on everyone on the panel too, 559 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: if that happened in the course of our conversation from 560 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 1: anyone from the audience, to not make it be my 561 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: responsibility to be the only one to say something. And 562 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 1: every single one was was great and said absolutely of course. 563 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,720 Speaker 1: But that should be the way that we're setting up conversations. 564 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 1: It shouldn't be the responsibility of the person who is 565 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 1: most likely to be harmed to say, like, Hey, I 566 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,760 Speaker 1: hate to be the one to bring the mood down, 567 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,399 Speaker 1: but this could happen, so can we please watch out 568 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,440 Speaker 1: for it. God, I have been that person a thousand times, 569 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 1: and it's kind of like what you were saying. It 570 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: just sucks, like you you wanna you want to do 571 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,839 Speaker 1: your job and be paid what you're owned for doing 572 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 1: that work. I feel that black women are just not 573 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 1: often afforded the ability to just do your work and 574 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 1: keep your head down. It's like you have to take 575 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 1: on all this often unpaid might I add extra labor, 576 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: extra energy, extra everything just to exist and do your 577 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,759 Speaker 1: job and put your message out there really exhausting. I 578 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 1: know exactly that that feeling of like oh God, I'm 579 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 1: gonna be to have to be the person that raises 580 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 1: this again and like everyone's gonna grown. I just know 581 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:17,480 Speaker 1: that feeling, and it sucks. Yeah, it does. What do 582 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 1: you think platforms or policy policy folks or any anybody 583 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 1: who has power decision makers? What should folks be doing 584 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,439 Speaker 1: to keep this and misinformation off of platforms. I think 585 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 1: it's great that the incoming administration is passing the bar 586 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 1: that was on the ground from the Trump administration for 587 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 1: diversity and so at least they've cleared that low bar 588 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 1: and standard. But I am not seeing enough UM black 589 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 1: women in positions of leadership when it comes to misinformation 590 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:59,360 Speaker 1: and tech policy specifically. UM. I was encouraged by the 591 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 1: science I think it's some sort of science focused department 592 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 1: within the administration that was announced recently that a Laundron 593 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 1: Nelson will be on. That's incredible. Uh, But on the 594 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,840 Speaker 1: tech side, it cannot just be pulling the expertise of 595 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 1: people like Eric Schmidt and other white text executives to 596 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 1: then reform the same industry that they've made billions off of. Like, 597 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 1: that's just not how it works. That's not how it 598 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 1: should work. UM and I and I think it's important 599 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 1: to pull academics, but you also need practitioners who have 600 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 1: experienced things on the insides of these platforms to be 601 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:46,320 Speaker 1: informing the decisions and any regulation or reform that comes 602 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:50,319 Speaker 1: as a result. So much of the infrastructure of what 603 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:52,919 Speaker 1: we rely on to make the Internet safer and better, 604 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 1: so people who are fighting disinformation and misinformation have been 605 00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 1: for a long time. So much of that infrastructure is 606 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,320 Speaker 1: Black women in What is it like to know that 607 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:07,239 Speaker 1: we have such a big role in doing a lot 608 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 1: of the work that is making the Internet safer and 609 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:17,319 Speaker 1: better for everybody? I mean, I it's tough because on 610 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 1: the one hand, when we when progress is made that 611 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 1: we push for everyone benefits um and often we benefit 612 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:30,000 Speaker 1: the least. And so it is. It's just a role 613 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,920 Speaker 1: that many Black women have taken on to protect themselves 614 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 1: and our communities. On the other hand, I don't blame 615 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 1: any black women who are like, you know what, this 616 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:44,240 Speaker 1: is not my fight, this is not my battle. I'm tired. 617 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 1: I'm just trying to live during a pandemic. I'm trying 618 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,960 Speaker 1: to feed my kids, I'm trying to feed myself. I'm 619 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 1: trying to take a damn nap like I ascribe wholeheartedly 620 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,040 Speaker 1: to the NAP Ministry and the work that the NA 621 00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 1: Ministry has been doing, because I think sometimes we have 622 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: to say, you know what I told you, so now 623 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:06,399 Speaker 1: I'm going to rest. That's it. I'm done, I'm done, 624 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 1: I'm bound out, And so I allow the space for 625 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:14,600 Speaker 1: that at any point while also hoping that when Black 626 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:16,600 Speaker 1: women say, you know what, this is work that I 627 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 1: want to do, that we're uplifted and we're empowered. The 628 00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 1: flip side of that is making sure that allies are 629 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,319 Speaker 1: supposed allies are not then saying, oh my gosh, you're 630 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:27,799 Speaker 1: so good at this, you need to be the one 631 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 1: leading it. No no, after uh the fifth and the 632 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 1: results in Georgia when everyone is posting about and not 633 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: Black women because black women were not doing this, but 634 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: when everyone else was posting about what Stacy Abrams needs 635 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 1: to be doing now. If she wants to go to 636 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:47,759 Speaker 1: a SPA for the next month, for the next decade, 637 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:50,759 Speaker 1: that is her decision and that's what she should be 638 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 1: empowered to do, and those same people trying to demand 639 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:56,799 Speaker 1: labor of her should donate so that she can have 640 00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,279 Speaker 1: her SPA time for as long as she wants. Like 641 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:01,719 Speaker 1: that is the kind of our ship that I want 642 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:04,680 Speaker 1: to see, not just finding new work for us to 643 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,239 Speaker 1: do when we're the only ones paying the price for 644 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:12,839 Speaker 1: the work. For i Foma, the work continues. Just last week, 645 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 1: she introduced the Silent No More Act, new legislation she 646 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,680 Speaker 1: released with California State Senator Connie Lava that would prevent 647 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,359 Speaker 1: the use of non disclosure agreements or n d as 648 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,120 Speaker 1: in workplace situations involving discrimination and harassment of any kind. 649 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,480 Speaker 1: When he Foma spoke out about what she experienced at Pinterest, 650 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 1: she was breaking an NDA, and because the current legislation 651 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,920 Speaker 1: only protects employees from speaking out of its gender discrimination, 652 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,960 Speaker 1: not race based discrimination, Pinterest could have suited her for 653 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 1: speaking up. I Foma is working to change the future, 654 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 1: to build when we're marginalized, people don't have to pay 655 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,440 Speaker 1: such a huge personal cost for trying to build a 656 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:58,279 Speaker 1: better world. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech. 657 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,279 Speaker 1: I just want to say hi you and we just 658 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,479 Speaker 1: said hello at tang godi dot com. You can also 659 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,319 Speaker 1: find transcripts for today's episode at tang godi dot com. 660 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:07,000 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by 661 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,000 Speaker 1: me Bridget Tod. It's a production of iHeart Radio and Unboss. 662 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,640 Speaker 1: Creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Terry Harrison is 663 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:17,320 Speaker 1: our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. 664 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,239 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help 665 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,279 Speaker 1: us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For 666 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,040 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeart Radio, check out the iHeart Radio app, 667 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:28,120 Speaker 1: Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts