1
00:00:15,396 --> 00:00:21,716
Speaker 1: Pushkin. There's a place in our world where the paper

2
00:00:21,756 --> 00:00:30,236
Speaker 1: ballots go, a ballot box somewhere, I hope. Welcome to

3
00:00:30,276 --> 00:00:35,596
Speaker 1: the Last Archive Special Election Edition. I'm Jill Lapour. How

4
00:00:35,596 --> 00:00:37,596
Speaker 1: will we know the results of the twenty twenty election?

5
00:00:37,996 --> 00:00:41,436
Speaker 1: And when? Last year? On the Last Archive we did

6
00:00:41,436 --> 00:00:44,116
Speaker 1: a whole episode about the prediction of election results and

7
00:00:44,236 --> 00:00:48,316
Speaker 1: how all that changed in nineteen fifty two. Turn back

8
00:00:48,356 --> 00:00:51,036
Speaker 1: the hands of your clock and go listen to that episode.

9
00:00:51,156 --> 00:00:55,956
Speaker 1: It's the fifth one Project X. When I was reporting it,

10
00:00:56,036 --> 00:00:59,436
Speaker 1: I telephoned the wonderful, delightful Bob Schieffer to ask him

11
00:00:59,436 --> 00:01:03,356
Speaker 1: about calling elections on election night. Schieffer, who's now retired,

12
00:01:03,676 --> 00:01:05,756
Speaker 1: was for a very long time the host of CBS's

13
00:01:05,756 --> 00:01:09,116
Speaker 1: Face the Nation. The interview didn't really fit in the episode,

14
00:01:09,516 --> 00:01:13,516
Speaker 1: but it's haunted me ever since this election season. Twitter's

15
00:01:13,516 --> 00:01:15,716
Speaker 1: announced that it's going to slow the flow of information

16
00:01:17,036 --> 00:01:19,916
Speaker 1: not so fast people keep saying about this year's voting,

17
00:01:20,716 --> 00:01:24,356
Speaker 1: So one question keep snagging me. How did we get

18
00:01:24,356 --> 00:01:25,956
Speaker 1: so caught up in a fetish for speed in the

19
00:01:25,996 --> 00:01:37,756
Speaker 1: first place. Honestly, what's the hurry? My daughter just always

20
00:01:37,796 --> 00:01:39,156
Speaker 1: asked me to see, Dad, did you want to be

21
00:01:39,236 --> 00:01:41,316
Speaker 1: a TV reporter when you were a little boy, and

22
00:01:41,356 --> 00:01:43,996
Speaker 1: they didn't have TV when I was a little boy,

23
00:01:44,276 --> 00:01:47,796
Speaker 1: come to Fort Worth until the eighth grade, and I

24
00:01:47,876 --> 00:01:52,076
Speaker 1: remember very well we were going out to eat one

25
00:01:52,196 --> 00:01:54,996
Speaker 1: night and we had this Mashican restaurant we always went to,

26
00:01:55,116 --> 00:01:58,676
Speaker 1: and we got out. There was an appliance store next

27
00:01:58,676 --> 00:02:02,436
Speaker 1: door to the restaurant and we there was a little

28
00:02:02,436 --> 00:02:05,036
Speaker 1: TV in the window and they had it on and

29
00:02:05,236 --> 00:02:07,836
Speaker 1: I remember that's the first time I've ever seen TV

30
00:02:08,516 --> 00:02:11,116
Speaker 1: and I was just mesmerized by it. My dad said,

31
00:02:11,156 --> 00:02:13,316
Speaker 1: come on, I'm hungry, I don't have time to watch.

32
00:02:14,836 --> 00:02:18,036
Speaker 1: So that was my introduction to television. Wow. And did

33
00:02:18,076 --> 00:02:20,996
Speaker 1: your family watch the news when you then, like when

34
00:02:20,996 --> 00:02:25,036
Speaker 1: you're in high school? Oh? Absolutely. We always watched the news,

35
00:02:25,196 --> 00:02:28,716
Speaker 1: and for some reason, and I don't really know why,

36
00:02:28,756 --> 00:02:34,916
Speaker 1: I guess we watched CBS, although the local affiliate, and

37
00:02:35,036 --> 00:02:39,596
Speaker 1: Fort Worth was an NBC station. But my mother once

38
00:02:39,956 --> 00:02:43,996
Speaker 1: Walter Cronkite came along and all of that, she really

39
00:02:44,036 --> 00:02:46,876
Speaker 1: liked Walter and so we kind of we kind of

40
00:02:46,916 --> 00:02:50,676
Speaker 1: grew up with Hunley and Brinkley and Walter Cronkite. Yeah, yeah,

41
00:02:50,716 --> 00:02:52,876
Speaker 1: you know, I had forgotten I went was watching the

42
00:02:53,236 --> 00:02:56,996
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty two coverage. So it's Cronkite and Morrow and

43
00:02:57,036 --> 00:03:01,316
Speaker 1: then Charles Collingwood. I had forgotten how kind of dashing

44
00:03:01,316 --> 00:03:04,716
Speaker 1: and debonair Cronkite was in the fifties. Yeah, Willie. And

45
00:03:04,756 --> 00:03:08,396
Speaker 1: he had a mustache, which not many people on television

46
00:03:08,716 --> 00:03:11,596
Speaker 1: journal his hand in those days. But he was he

47
00:03:11,676 --> 00:03:14,836
Speaker 1: was very urbane, you know, and he had he'd been

48
00:03:14,876 --> 00:03:18,036
Speaker 1: to World War Two and uh, you know, he had

49
00:03:18,076 --> 00:03:22,636
Speaker 1: been you know, foreign correspondent, and so he'd been around

50
00:03:22,996 --> 00:03:26,316
Speaker 1: by that time. And a lot of people said that,

51
00:03:26,756 --> 00:03:30,116
Speaker 1: you know, if Walter walked into a television station today,

52
00:03:30,116 --> 00:03:32,516
Speaker 1: I'm applied for a job, he wouldn't get hired because

53
00:03:32,516 --> 00:03:38,076
Speaker 1: he didn't look like a reporter. But he and he

54
00:03:38,196 --> 00:03:40,836
Speaker 1: had that you know, that cadence in his voice, the

55
00:03:40,956 --> 00:03:45,596
Speaker 1: soul correspondent and uh, you know, and nobody talks like

56
00:03:45,716 --> 00:03:49,396
Speaker 1: that anyway, but Walter really did talk like that, and

57
00:03:49,476 --> 00:03:52,036
Speaker 1: he talked like that off camera as well as uh

58
00:03:52,596 --> 00:03:57,116
Speaker 1: one camera. Yeah. Well, so trying to grapple here what

59
00:03:57,236 --> 00:04:01,156
Speaker 1: the consequences are of the kind of explosion of information

60
00:04:01,196 --> 00:04:07,316
Speaker 1: available to news broadcasters and reporters around elections that really,

61
00:04:07,436 --> 00:04:09,636
Speaker 1: you know, this is kind of watershed moment in fifty

62
00:04:09,636 --> 00:04:13,116
Speaker 1: two when CBS decides to try to predict the election

63
00:04:13,356 --> 00:04:17,716
Speaker 1: the very night using the returns as they're coming in

64
00:04:17,796 --> 00:04:20,756
Speaker 1: that can be calculated with a Unix. CBS announced that

65
00:04:20,796 --> 00:04:24,556
Speaker 1: they would be giving the fastest election prediction ever given,

66
00:04:24,956 --> 00:04:27,156
Speaker 1: and that they would call the election before anyone else

67
00:04:27,156 --> 00:04:29,876
Speaker 1: could call it, because I'm fifty two. The worry was

68
00:04:29,916 --> 00:04:31,916
Speaker 1: like they would if they made a prediction, it would

69
00:04:31,956 --> 00:04:33,956
Speaker 1: be wrong. But if they didn't make a prediction, no

70
00:04:33,996 --> 00:04:36,636
Speaker 1: one would watch. And so they bring in this machine

71
00:04:36,676 --> 00:04:41,436
Speaker 1: to grant legitimacy to their prediction, but then maybe they

72
00:04:41,516 --> 00:04:45,236
Speaker 1: lead us into a different kind of political trouble. So

73
00:04:45,276 --> 00:04:47,996
Speaker 1: I would just love to hear your vantage about what

74
00:04:48,036 --> 00:04:51,716
Speaker 1: it means to bring in computer and what we would

75
00:04:51,796 --> 00:04:54,236
Speaker 1: now call, you know, big data into the newsroom on

76
00:04:54,276 --> 00:04:57,796
Speaker 1: an election night. You know it's CBS. When we would

77
00:04:57,836 --> 00:05:01,396
Speaker 1: talk about those early days, the thing that always surprised

78
00:05:01,476 --> 00:05:04,996
Speaker 1: us is they brought in this computer and then when

79
00:05:05,036 --> 00:05:08,356
Speaker 1: they got the results from the computer, they didn't believe it.

80
00:05:08,436 --> 00:05:10,916
Speaker 1: They i didn't know if it was true or not,

81
00:05:11,076 --> 00:05:14,396
Speaker 1: and they were hesitant about reporting it. They held the

82
00:05:14,436 --> 00:05:19,356
Speaker 1: information for a while, but the coming of the computers

83
00:05:19,516 --> 00:05:23,516
Speaker 1: changed everything about election night. I mean, in our romantic

84
00:05:24,036 --> 00:05:26,836
Speaker 1: rear view mirror, we look back and think about election

85
00:05:27,036 --> 00:05:31,036
Speaker 1: nights when the family gathered around the radio and you know,

86
00:05:31,076 --> 00:05:33,436
Speaker 1: they put on an extra cup of coffee and then

87
00:05:33,476 --> 00:05:36,356
Speaker 1: they waited and waited for the returns to come in,

88
00:05:36,956 --> 00:05:39,716
Speaker 1: and it was a lot of fun and in a

89
00:05:39,756 --> 00:05:43,396
Speaker 1: funny kind of way. Among other things. The computers sort

90
00:05:43,396 --> 00:05:46,396
Speaker 1: of took the fun out of election night and changed

91
00:05:46,436 --> 00:05:49,956
Speaker 1: it completely. I mean, you think back to you know,

92
00:05:50,036 --> 00:05:55,996
Speaker 1: back when Woodrow Wilson in nineteen sixteen he went to

93
00:05:56,036 --> 00:05:58,516
Speaker 1: bed thinking he had lost the presidency, and it was

94
00:05:58,596 --> 00:06:01,556
Speaker 1: not till four days later that he found out that

95
00:06:01,716 --> 00:06:05,196
Speaker 1: he had won. And down through the years that began,

96
00:06:05,396 --> 00:06:07,676
Speaker 1: you know, to speed up a little bit. But with

97
00:06:07,756 --> 00:06:12,196
Speaker 1: the coming of computers, it really changed everything. And some

98
00:06:12,236 --> 00:06:15,916
Speaker 1: people thought that was very unfair. They didn't like the

99
00:06:15,996 --> 00:06:17,756
Speaker 1: idea they were going to find out in an hour

100
00:06:17,916 --> 00:06:21,116
Speaker 1: or so who won the election. But in some cases

101
00:06:21,156 --> 00:06:24,396
Speaker 1: that was that was exactly what happened. And so when

102
00:06:24,436 --> 00:06:27,556
Speaker 1: you had those conversations, did anyone, I mean, aside from

103
00:06:27,556 --> 00:06:29,956
Speaker 1: sort of looking backward with a little bit of wistfulness,

104
00:06:30,596 --> 00:06:32,796
Speaker 1: did anybody ever say well, here's here's the way we

105
00:06:32,796 --> 00:06:35,476
Speaker 1: shouldn't be using them. Or were you at the table

106
00:06:35,516 --> 00:06:38,116
Speaker 1: for some of those conversations over the years, you know,

107
00:06:39,476 --> 00:06:42,076
Speaker 1: from the from the coming of the computers, from the

108
00:06:42,116 --> 00:06:46,116
Speaker 1: coming of all technological uh advanced You know, the one

109
00:06:46,196 --> 00:06:51,156
Speaker 1: thing about communications that is constant is it's always changing,

110
00:06:51,836 --> 00:06:54,996
Speaker 1: and as we have seen over the years, it always

111
00:06:55,076 --> 00:06:58,156
Speaker 1: gets faster. And the use of computers is like we

112
00:06:58,236 --> 00:07:02,796
Speaker 1: always do with new technology. And that goes all the

113
00:07:02,836 --> 00:07:07,156
Speaker 1: way back to the invention of the machine gun, and

114
00:07:07,276 --> 00:07:10,916
Speaker 1: you think about how many people died before the general's

115
00:07:10,996 --> 00:07:13,996
Speaker 1: understood that the way to attack a machine gun is

116
00:07:14,036 --> 00:07:17,756
Speaker 1: not to march your troops head on into machine gun fire.

117
00:07:17,876 --> 00:07:20,436
Speaker 1: You kind of go around to the side and just

118
00:07:20,556 --> 00:07:23,596
Speaker 1: like now we're we're grappling with what to do with

119
00:07:23,676 --> 00:07:27,236
Speaker 1: digital and all of that, and you know, we thought

120
00:07:27,316 --> 00:07:30,396
Speaker 1: this was going to end all the problems and just

121
00:07:30,516 --> 00:07:35,396
Speaker 1: make things faster, but we didn't understand the downside of

122
00:07:35,436 --> 00:07:41,796
Speaker 1: these new technological advances. You think Facebook knew what the

123
00:07:42,036 --> 00:07:47,036
Speaker 1: downside of what Zuckerberg had, you know, put on the

124
00:07:47,756 --> 00:07:50,516
Speaker 1: market there. I'm sure he didn't, nor did anyone else,

125
00:07:50,636 --> 00:07:54,356
Speaker 1: but we always in its understandable well we always use

126
00:07:54,476 --> 00:07:58,556
Speaker 1: technology before we completely understand it, and that was absolutely

127
00:07:58,556 --> 00:08:02,956
Speaker 1: the case with the coming computers to election night. So

128
00:08:03,156 --> 00:08:07,516
Speaker 1: what are the aside from taking the fun out of

129
00:08:07,556 --> 00:08:10,996
Speaker 1: election night, what are the other consequences do you think

130
00:08:11,356 --> 00:08:15,676
Speaker 1: for coverage or for how the elections themselves go. Well,

131
00:08:16,556 --> 00:08:19,956
Speaker 1: the computers do make mistakes, and I mean the technology

132
00:08:20,156 --> 00:08:24,716
Speaker 1: is sometimes wrong. I mean, and what I always think

133
00:08:24,756 --> 00:08:28,156
Speaker 1: about on election night. The first thing when people talk

134
00:08:28,196 --> 00:08:32,156
Speaker 1: about computers and things like that is in nineteen eighty

135
00:08:32,676 --> 00:08:37,236
Speaker 1: NBC called Ronald Reagan the winner at eight fifteen on

136
00:08:37,396 --> 00:08:41,596
Speaker 1: election night. It was such a huge landslide over Jimmy

137
00:08:41,676 --> 00:08:47,796
Speaker 1: Carter and Carter formally conceded at ten o'clock before the

138
00:08:47,836 --> 00:08:51,716
Speaker 1: polls had even closed in the West, and Democrats were

139
00:08:51,836 --> 00:08:58,396
Speaker 1: absolutely furious. Two Democrats, al Oleman and James Corman publicly

140
00:08:58,516 --> 00:09:04,036
Speaker 1: blamed Carter for their defeats out there. Whether that was

141
00:09:04,116 --> 00:09:07,796
Speaker 1: the cause or not, they actually said it was his fault.

142
00:09:08,476 --> 00:09:14,916
Speaker 1: Senator Warren Magnusson was also defeated because all these many

143
00:09:15,076 --> 00:09:18,076
Speaker 1: races in the Western time zone had been affected by

144
00:09:18,156 --> 00:09:24,476
Speaker 1: Carter's concession. House Speaker Tip O'Neill was so furious he

145
00:09:24,596 --> 00:09:28,356
Speaker 1: exploded in a conversation with a Carter aid telling him

146
00:09:28,916 --> 00:09:31,556
Speaker 1: you jerks came in like a bunch of jerks and

147
00:09:31,636 --> 00:09:35,396
Speaker 1: you're going out the same way. He was just absolutely furious,

148
00:09:35,436 --> 00:09:39,716
Speaker 1: and Washington State Congressman Tom Foley said it was vintage

149
00:09:39,796 --> 00:09:47,476
Speaker 1: Carter at his dead worst. And you know that, we

150
00:09:47,516 --> 00:09:49,636
Speaker 1: began to think about then we'll wait a minute here.

151
00:09:49,676 --> 00:09:53,956
Speaker 1: We've got the ability to do this. And the landslide

152
00:09:54,036 --> 00:09:59,516
Speaker 1: was so overwhelming that was there just wasn't much question

153
00:09:59,636 --> 00:10:02,596
Speaker 1: about whether it was right or not. It was right,

154
00:10:03,076 --> 00:10:07,876
Speaker 1: but the impact was something that nobody had really thought

155
00:10:07,996 --> 00:10:11,556
Speaker 1: very much about until that time. And would that happen now?

156
00:10:11,596 --> 00:10:14,116
Speaker 1: I mean, would people call a national election before the

157
00:10:14,196 --> 00:10:19,156
Speaker 1: local contests had been decided? Well? I think it would depend.

158
00:10:19,236 --> 00:10:24,236
Speaker 1: We instituted rules somewhere back that we never called a

159
00:10:24,436 --> 00:10:28,716
Speaker 1: state until the polls had had closed in that state.

160
00:10:29,876 --> 00:10:34,316
Speaker 1: If you had a situation, where would you call it

161
00:10:34,356 --> 00:10:37,996
Speaker 1: before eleven o'clock? I think that's an open question. If

162
00:10:38,036 --> 00:10:42,836
Speaker 1: it was a huge and overwhelming landslide, I think it

163
00:10:42,836 --> 00:10:46,196
Speaker 1: would be very difficult not to call it early in

164
00:10:46,316 --> 00:10:50,516
Speaker 1: a presidential race, but generally we have tried not to

165
00:10:50,556 --> 00:10:55,236
Speaker 1: do that. And would people ever, I mean trying to

166
00:10:55,236 --> 00:10:58,596
Speaker 1: think about the different rule that the kinds of computers

167
00:10:58,596 --> 00:11:01,996
Speaker 1: that are available now to newsrooms would have. You know

168
00:11:02,076 --> 00:11:05,356
Speaker 1: that first UNIVAC is this clunky thing, and as you say,

169
00:11:05,996 --> 00:11:08,836
Speaker 1: you know, CBS didn't even believe it's prediction, didn't report

170
00:11:08,876 --> 00:11:12,196
Speaker 1: on it initially. But you could know pretty early in

171
00:11:12,236 --> 00:11:17,956
Speaker 1: a day on election day how things are looking because

172
00:11:18,036 --> 00:11:20,876
Speaker 1: of computational models that your computer would be able to

173
00:11:20,996 --> 00:11:24,996
Speaker 1: kind of five thirty eight. Uh, you know, I don't know,

174
00:11:24,996 --> 00:11:29,116
Speaker 1: it's sort of the magical work of computer modeling that

175
00:11:29,156 --> 00:11:31,396
Speaker 1: could be done early on. Does that influence do you

176
00:11:31,436 --> 00:11:34,996
Speaker 1: think how how the coverage unfolds over the course of

177
00:11:34,996 --> 00:11:39,036
Speaker 1: the day. Oh? Absolutely, And and a lot of times,

178
00:11:39,236 --> 00:11:43,916
Speaker 1: you know, early on we'll go in and we'll get

179
00:11:44,796 --> 00:11:49,036
Speaker 1: our pulsers will tell us like it's CBS, uh, you know,

180
00:11:49,116 --> 00:11:54,996
Speaker 1: it looks like, you know, somebody's going to carry Virginia.

181
00:11:55,396 --> 00:11:58,156
Speaker 1: It looks like somebody's gonna you know, but we're not

182
00:11:58,236 --> 00:12:01,956
Speaker 1: going to call that, and so we will the closest

183
00:12:01,996 --> 00:12:04,516
Speaker 1: will come to that, as we'll say, you know, it's

184
00:12:05,356 --> 00:12:09,116
Speaker 1: leaning or something like that. But we we simply don't

185
00:12:09,116 --> 00:12:14,556
Speaker 1: don't call any of those early poll closing results until

186
00:12:15,156 --> 00:12:19,116
Speaker 1: the polls in that in that section have actually closed.

187
00:12:19,156 --> 00:12:23,156
Speaker 1: But the other thing, Jill is the polls are just

188
00:12:23,356 --> 00:12:26,556
Speaker 1: not as reliable as they once were, even even the

189
00:12:26,636 --> 00:12:31,476
Speaker 1: EGXIT polling, where people now tend to sometimes not till

190
00:12:32,236 --> 00:12:35,436
Speaker 1: the polsters. And what exit polling is is we just

191
00:12:35,516 --> 00:12:38,996
Speaker 1: hire people to go out and stand outside the polls

192
00:12:39,356 --> 00:12:44,196
Speaker 1: and ask people how they voted. Well, some years back,

193
00:12:44,556 --> 00:12:46,956
Speaker 1: when that first happened, people were happy to do it,

194
00:12:47,076 --> 00:12:50,356
Speaker 1: and but now they sometimes lie to the people, they

195
00:12:51,396 --> 00:12:55,516
Speaker 1: don't tell the truth, or they just simply won't won't

196
00:12:55,556 --> 00:12:58,836
Speaker 1: talk to them because they're such well, we're in such

197
00:12:58,876 --> 00:13:04,356
Speaker 1: a partisan like atmosphere right now. I mean, what computers

198
00:13:04,356 --> 00:13:10,156
Speaker 1: are doing on election day for a newsroom is making

199
00:13:10,236 --> 00:13:15,556
Speaker 1: more information available more quickly and detecting patterns that would

200
00:13:15,596 --> 00:13:20,116
Speaker 1: be hard for people working with pen and paper to detect.

201
00:13:20,956 --> 00:13:24,956
Speaker 1: So at some level, what we're talking about is better

202
00:13:24,996 --> 00:13:29,916
Speaker 1: evidence and more data and better information and more astute analysis.

203
00:13:30,796 --> 00:13:35,396
Speaker 1: And we will intuitively think, well, better evidence, more information,

204
00:13:35,556 --> 00:13:38,796
Speaker 1: more student analysis, even kind of bracketing for a question

205
00:13:38,836 --> 00:13:42,156
Speaker 1: the unreliability of polling data, but just thinking about other

206
00:13:42,196 --> 00:13:44,676
Speaker 1: forms of data that the computer would have previous. The

207
00:13:44,716 --> 00:13:47,996
Speaker 1: returns from previous previous elections, the kind of kind of

208
00:13:49,596 --> 00:13:52,316
Speaker 1: dog and pony show that you know on CNN when

209
00:13:52,316 --> 00:13:54,836
Speaker 1: they have the hologram and they can make a three

210
00:13:54,916 --> 00:13:58,796
Speaker 1: D interactive electoral map, and we suddenly can look at

211
00:13:58,836 --> 00:14:02,116
Speaker 1: patterns over the last for presidential elections, and we can

212
00:14:02,276 --> 00:14:04,956
Speaker 1: look at these county by county bits of information that

213
00:14:05,556 --> 00:14:08,116
Speaker 1: it is a tremendous amount of evidence that has presented

214
00:14:08,156 --> 00:14:10,676
Speaker 1: to us. And in a demidocracy, we're supposed to be informed.

215
00:14:11,716 --> 00:14:15,196
Speaker 1: Is there a version of the influence of computers on

216
00:14:15,356 --> 00:14:19,396
Speaker 1: election day reporting that is a good story, that is

217
00:14:19,436 --> 00:14:26,076
Speaker 1: about improvements to our specivic participation or our commitment to

218
00:14:26,116 --> 00:14:29,796
Speaker 1: democratic institutions. I think we can both point to all

219
00:14:29,796 --> 00:14:32,036
Speaker 1: the things that are kind of decaying around this. But

220
00:14:32,236 --> 00:14:37,236
Speaker 1: what's the good side. Well, the good side is that

221
00:14:37,756 --> 00:14:41,996
Speaker 1: we still this information is still valuable. But I mean

222
00:14:42,036 --> 00:14:44,716
Speaker 1: it's all part of this new world that we live

223
00:14:44,756 --> 00:14:50,876
Speaker 1: in because we've undergone this this communication revolution that goes

224
00:14:51,036 --> 00:14:54,756
Speaker 1: beyond just computers, I mean, the whole coming of the Internet.

225
00:14:56,436 --> 00:15:00,956
Speaker 1: We are we have more information available to us than

226
00:15:01,036 --> 00:15:04,036
Speaker 1: any people who've ever lived on Earth at any one

227
00:15:04,156 --> 00:15:07,196
Speaker 1: time in the history of the world. But does anyone

228
00:15:07,236 --> 00:15:11,756
Speaker 1: think we're or wiser or are we simply overwhelmed with

229
00:15:11,836 --> 00:15:16,356
Speaker 1: so much information that we can't process it? And my

230
00:15:16,796 --> 00:15:20,556
Speaker 1: feeling is we're overwhelmed. We're still working our way through this,

231
00:15:20,716 --> 00:15:23,796
Speaker 1: we're still trying to figure to figure all this out,

232
00:15:23,916 --> 00:15:28,436
Speaker 1: and it has had an impact on the credibility of

233
00:15:28,556 --> 00:15:34,156
Speaker 1: news organizations, and we find people more it's more difficult

234
00:15:34,156 --> 00:15:39,356
Speaker 1: for people to believe anything now. And so the credibility

235
00:15:39,396 --> 00:15:44,436
Speaker 1: of all news organizations every day of the year, uh

236
00:15:45,556 --> 00:15:48,716
Speaker 1: is not what he wants. Was simply because we're just

237
00:15:48,836 --> 00:15:53,116
Speaker 1: being drowned in more information than we can possibly process.

238
00:15:53,236 --> 00:15:56,916
Speaker 1: And I think I think this is all part of that. Yeah, no,

239
00:15:57,036 --> 00:16:02,436
Speaker 1: very that's absolutely the case. But we we I think,

240
00:16:02,516 --> 00:16:07,956
Speaker 1: do tend to still want to believe that datum does

241
00:16:08,036 --> 00:16:11,276
Speaker 1: mean wisdom it. I mean, you're absolutely right, it does

242
00:16:11,276 --> 00:16:14,556
Speaker 1: send to more information. But you know, Martin Luther thought

243
00:16:14,636 --> 00:16:16,836
Speaker 1: the invention of the printing press was going to make

244
00:16:16,876 --> 00:16:19,836
Speaker 1: everything just fine, that once people could read the Bible

245
00:16:20,356 --> 00:16:23,716
Speaker 1: in their own language, that all of the problems and

246
00:16:23,836 --> 00:16:27,396
Speaker 1: controversies they had would all be worked out. But after

247
00:16:27,436 --> 00:16:29,676
Speaker 1: the invention of the printing press, that we had thirty

248
00:16:29,756 --> 00:16:34,676
Speaker 1: years of religious wars. It don't everybody all at once

249
00:16:34,756 --> 00:16:39,516
Speaker 1: began to agree on things. And I think we're I

250
00:16:39,556 --> 00:16:42,636
Speaker 1: think the coming of the Internet is having as profound

251
00:16:42,636 --> 00:16:46,996
Speaker 1: an impact on our culture and Western cultures as the

252
00:16:47,036 --> 00:16:49,716
Speaker 1: invention of the printing press had on the people of

253
00:16:49,756 --> 00:16:53,756
Speaker 1: its day. Yeah, although the inventing the printing press makes

254
00:16:53,836 --> 00:16:57,556
Speaker 1: possible the rise of modern democracy, absolutely, so what does

255
00:16:57,596 --> 00:17:03,396
Speaker 1: the invention of the internet make possible? Confusion? I think

256
00:17:03,916 --> 00:17:07,516
Speaker 1: on the downside's there's no question, and we can get

257
00:17:07,556 --> 00:17:13,116
Speaker 1: more information fast than at any any time in the

258
00:17:13,196 --> 00:17:16,436
Speaker 1: history of the world. But just because we get it

259
00:17:16,516 --> 00:17:20,356
Speaker 1: faster does not necessarily mean that it's going to work

260
00:17:20,356 --> 00:17:23,236
Speaker 1: out all the problems. There are still just this myriad

261
00:17:23,436 --> 00:17:27,076
Speaker 1: problems that have to be resolved. But we're getting there.

262
00:17:27,596 --> 00:17:31,516
Speaker 1: But you know, we just kind of haven't reached equilibrium yet.

263
00:17:31,556 --> 00:17:35,756
Speaker 1: And the coming of the Internet and the use of

264
00:17:35,796 --> 00:17:39,996
Speaker 1: computers on election night is just all part of that. Yeah.

265
00:17:39,996 --> 00:17:42,356
Speaker 1: I was to my husband's a computer scientist at MIT,

266
00:17:42,516 --> 00:17:45,396
Speaker 1: and I was asking him yesterday to give me some

267
00:17:45,476 --> 00:17:48,436
Speaker 1: kind of a rule of thumb about the processing the

268
00:17:48,716 --> 00:17:52,796
Speaker 1: capacity of a computer of the nineteen fifties relative to today.

269
00:17:52,836 --> 00:17:55,316
Speaker 1: And I was sitting, of course with my laptop, you know,

270
00:17:55,356 --> 00:17:58,036
Speaker 1: my Mac in my lap. And he said, well, one

271
00:17:58,076 --> 00:18:01,156
Speaker 1: measure would be you have more memory on your Mac

272
00:18:01,676 --> 00:18:04,116
Speaker 1: sitting right here in this room than all the computer

273
00:18:04,236 --> 00:18:09,036
Speaker 1: storage in the entire world in nineteen sixty. Yeah, just

274
00:18:09,156 --> 00:18:11,436
Speaker 1: in terms of the storage of data, not even being

275
00:18:11,476 --> 00:18:15,316
Speaker 1: connected to the internet. Just what was on my hard drive. So,

276
00:18:15,356 --> 00:18:18,636
Speaker 1: if you were giving the task of coming up with

277
00:18:18,676 --> 00:18:23,636
Speaker 1: a plan for election date, election night coverage for twenty twenty,

278
00:18:23,996 --> 00:18:28,276
Speaker 1: what would be a priority for you, Well, just to

279
00:18:28,316 --> 00:18:32,276
Speaker 1: improve the accuracy and to I think I think the

280
00:18:32,396 --> 00:18:35,196
Speaker 1: secret is it's it's not so much the use of

281
00:18:35,236 --> 00:18:40,516
Speaker 1: the computers, but but the use of polling and finding polling. Uh.

282
00:18:40,596 --> 00:18:44,476
Speaker 1: That polling is not more reliable, it's it's one of

283
00:18:44,476 --> 00:18:47,356
Speaker 1: the things that has not improved. Polling has gotten worse,

284
00:18:48,356 --> 00:18:54,156
Speaker 1: not better. Uh, And we we're seeing that now on

285
00:18:54,316 --> 00:18:57,316
Speaker 1: election night is as much as any other time. And

286
00:18:57,636 --> 00:19:00,996
Speaker 1: finding a way to get polls that were as accurate

287
00:19:01,156 --> 00:19:04,556
Speaker 1: as we used to have when you know, we'd do

288
00:19:04,596 --> 00:19:07,876
Speaker 1: a national poll at CBS and we'd call, you know,

289
00:19:07,996 --> 00:19:11,796
Speaker 1: five thousand people to get fifteen hundred people. Well, now

290
00:19:11,876 --> 00:19:15,596
Speaker 1: we have to call thirty or forty thousand to get

291
00:19:16,316 --> 00:19:20,876
Speaker 1: fifteen hundred people and even so you wonder who are

292
00:19:20,956 --> 00:19:24,036
Speaker 1: the people that you're talking to you when you do

293
00:19:24,076 --> 00:19:27,116
Speaker 1: a poll like that, And I think that's that's where

294
00:19:27,156 --> 00:19:30,476
Speaker 1: the I think that's where the improvement could come. And

295
00:19:30,516 --> 00:19:32,276
Speaker 1: that's the part we have to work on. And it's

296
00:19:32,276 --> 00:19:35,916
Speaker 1: also the reason we have to be extremely careful, I

297
00:19:35,956 --> 00:19:39,956
Speaker 1: mean more careful than we've ever been before we broadcast anything,

298
00:19:39,996 --> 00:19:44,556
Speaker 1: because as you now know, I mean, once information gets out.

299
00:19:44,636 --> 00:19:47,796
Speaker 1: Now you know Mark Twain, what was it he said

300
00:19:47,876 --> 00:19:50,556
Speaker 1: that a like can go around the world while the

301
00:19:50,556 --> 00:19:55,476
Speaker 1: truth is still putting its pants on. And that's where

302
00:19:55,476 --> 00:19:58,636
Speaker 1: we are right now. I mean, what we're going through now,

303
00:20:00,036 --> 00:20:03,836
Speaker 1: and just the reporting of the news is it's not

304
00:20:03,916 --> 00:20:07,316
Speaker 1: the people have always made mistakes. They've always been part

305
00:20:07,316 --> 00:20:09,916
Speaker 1: of some people that are trying to put out all stories.

306
00:20:10,236 --> 00:20:14,556
Speaker 1: But the difference now is how quickly it gets it

307
00:20:14,596 --> 00:20:18,076
Speaker 1: gets to the public. And you know, we all have

308
00:20:18,156 --> 00:20:20,596
Speaker 1: to spend time now just sorting out where did this

309
00:20:20,676 --> 00:20:23,876
Speaker 1: come from? Is it true? How did they know that?

310
00:20:24,116 --> 00:20:27,796
Speaker 1: And that's that's what we've got, that's what we've got

311
00:20:27,876 --> 00:20:29,676
Speaker 1: to work on. But we also have got to be

312
00:20:29,836 --> 00:20:33,276
Speaker 1: very careful in what we report. You know, historians talk

313
00:20:33,316 --> 00:20:37,196
Speaker 1: a lot about this nineteen fifty two CBS election night. Um,

314
00:20:38,036 --> 00:20:39,756
Speaker 1: and it doesn't sound like it's a vivid memory for

315
00:20:39,796 --> 00:20:41,716
Speaker 1: you as a kid. But is it something that within

316
00:20:41,836 --> 00:20:46,956
Speaker 1: CBS people talk about or their stories about that. Yeah. Yeah,

317
00:20:46,996 --> 00:20:50,996
Speaker 1: I mean elections and how we cover them. It's always

318
00:20:51,276 --> 00:20:56,516
Speaker 1: it's always a topic the topic around CBS News and

319
00:20:56,996 --> 00:21:02,916
Speaker 1: you know, uh, political conventions, election years. People plan their

320
00:21:02,956 --> 00:21:07,636
Speaker 1: careers around those, those those big events. At least they did.

321
00:21:08,236 --> 00:21:10,756
Speaker 1: They were still doing it in my day when when

322
00:21:10,876 --> 00:21:13,636
Speaker 1: you know, when I was at there covering campaigns and stuff.

323
00:21:14,356 --> 00:21:16,756
Speaker 1: So you're always trying to figure out and what you're

324
00:21:16,796 --> 00:21:18,716
Speaker 1: always trying to figure out is how can you get

325
00:21:18,756 --> 00:21:22,316
Speaker 1: the information before the other guys too, which is what,

326
00:21:23,036 --> 00:21:25,516
Speaker 1: you know, one of the main things that journalism is about.

327
00:21:26,156 --> 00:21:29,436
Speaker 1: And I think sometimes we spent more time thinking about

328
00:21:29,436 --> 00:21:31,516
Speaker 1: how can we get the news first than we did

329
00:21:31,596 --> 00:21:37,476
Speaker 1: about what is the impact of the information we're getting. Yeah.

330
00:21:37,796 --> 00:21:45,196
Speaker 1: You know, one thing we thought in two thousand that

331
00:21:45,316 --> 00:21:48,076
Speaker 1: election night was going to go back to being an

332
00:21:48,076 --> 00:21:52,316
Speaker 1: old fashioned election night. We were going into that election.

333
00:21:52,356 --> 00:21:54,956
Speaker 1: We knew it was going to be very close, Gore

334
00:21:55,236 --> 00:22:00,036
Speaker 1: versus Bush, and I remember on the night before election night.

335
00:22:00,076 --> 00:22:02,836
Speaker 1: I told Ann Rather, I said, we are, and I

336
00:22:02,836 --> 00:22:05,236
Speaker 1: said this on television. I said, We're going to have

337
00:22:06,476 --> 00:22:10,316
Speaker 1: an old fashioned election night. We maybe up all night

338
00:22:10,476 --> 00:22:13,436
Speaker 1: before we know who wins this thing. Well under the

339
00:22:13,636 --> 00:22:17,636
Speaker 1: heading of be careful what you wish for. You know

340
00:22:17,676 --> 00:22:20,916
Speaker 1: what happened. It was December eleventh before we found out

341
00:22:20,916 --> 00:22:23,396
Speaker 1: who or twelfth, I guess it was before we found

342
00:22:23,396 --> 00:22:28,156
Speaker 1: out who who won that election, and it was it was.

343
00:22:28,396 --> 00:22:31,996
Speaker 1: It was one of the worst nights CBS ever had.

344
00:22:32,076 --> 00:22:37,516
Speaker 1: You know. We called Florida for Gore at seven forty

345
00:22:37,556 --> 00:22:41,956
Speaker 1: that night, we recalled it at ten o'clock. Gore conceded,

346
00:22:42,516 --> 00:22:45,796
Speaker 1: then he took it back. Then CBS called Florida for

347
00:22:45,956 --> 00:22:48,796
Speaker 1: Bush at two am, and then we had to take

348
00:22:48,836 --> 00:22:53,276
Speaker 1: that back at four am. So we got we got

349
00:22:53,316 --> 00:22:56,916
Speaker 1: an old fashioned election, all right, But it was something

350
00:22:56,996 --> 00:23:00,956
Speaker 1: none of us had anticipated. But it's one of those

351
00:23:01,076 --> 00:23:06,316
Speaker 1: nights I'll always remember. Yeah, I remember that night too,

352
00:23:06,396 --> 00:23:07,836
Speaker 1: because I think it was one of the few nights

353
00:23:07,876 --> 00:23:10,116
Speaker 1: I went to bed before it was resolved. I don't

354
00:23:10,116 --> 00:23:12,756
Speaker 1: know that there's been another one. The desire somehow to

355
00:23:12,796 --> 00:23:15,316
Speaker 1: have it all settled before you turn out the night

356
00:23:15,396 --> 00:23:18,396
Speaker 1: light is a very strong, very strong one from the

357
00:23:18,436 --> 00:23:20,956
Speaker 1: other side, not being the journalist trying to get the

358
00:23:20,996 --> 00:23:25,636
Speaker 1: news first, but being the listener and the viewer trying

359
00:23:25,676 --> 00:23:27,476
Speaker 1: to find it out so I could just go to bed.

360
00:23:27,996 --> 00:23:32,716
Speaker 1: I'm appreciating the speed in other reasons. Yeah, yeah, exactly

361
00:23:34,396 --> 00:23:37,276
Speaker 1: this election night, don't stay up late, go to bed.

362
00:23:37,516 --> 00:23:40,236
Speaker 1: The counting will take a while. Twenty twenty the Year

363
00:23:40,236 --> 00:23:43,756
Speaker 1: of slow voting. Good luck staying, saying and catching up

364
00:23:43,756 --> 00:23:45,916
Speaker 1: on sleep, and we'll be back in the spring with

365
00:23:45,996 --> 00:23:48,596
Speaker 1: a new season of the Last Archive about the rise

366
00:23:48,636 --> 00:23:55,196
Speaker 1: of doubt, psychological warfare, hoaxes, conspiracy theories, Russian misinformation, fake pandemics,

367
00:23:55,676 --> 00:24:00,076
Speaker 1: and maybe, but I hope not disputed elections. You won't

368
00:24:00,076 --> 00:24:02,676
Speaker 1: believe what we've uncovered. I mean, you should believe it,

369
00:24:02,716 --> 00:24:07,116
Speaker 1: but people don't believe anything anymore. Next season, believe it

370
00:24:07,276 --> 00:24:11,716
Speaker 1: or not. The