1
00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:33,676
Speaker 1: Pushkin. My mom looked at me and hugged me, and

2
00:00:33,836 --> 00:00:37,676
Speaker 1: she said, we don't know where to be going, We

3
00:00:37,836 --> 00:00:41,716
Speaker 1: don't know what's going to happen. Just remember, no one

4
00:00:41,796 --> 00:00:44,836
Speaker 1: can take away from you what you put here in

5
00:00:44,836 --> 00:00:49,996
Speaker 1: your own mind. And that's exactly what happened. That's doctor

6
00:00:50,116 --> 00:00:53,196
Speaker 1: Edith Eager recalling the advice her mother gave her when

7
00:00:53,236 --> 00:00:56,396
Speaker 1: she and her Jewish family were captured in Hungary and

8
00:00:56,476 --> 00:00:59,356
Speaker 1: put on a cattle car to the Auschwitz concentration camp.

9
00:01:00,276 --> 00:01:04,036
Speaker 1: Edith was just sixteen at the time. Today she's ninety

10
00:01:04,076 --> 00:01:07,756
Speaker 1: four years old. She's a psychologist who specializes in post

11
00:01:07,796 --> 00:01:10,756
Speaker 1: traumatic stress disorder and is the author of the book

12
00:01:10,876 --> 00:01:14,076
Speaker 1: The Choice, in which she describes how learning to control

13
00:01:14,156 --> 00:01:18,076
Speaker 1: her own mind helped her to survive the Holocaust. Edith

14
00:01:18,116 --> 00:01:20,156
Speaker 1: had been taught that lesson as a young child when

15
00:01:20,156 --> 00:01:22,756
Speaker 1: she was training to be a dancer, but she hadn't

16
00:01:22,796 --> 00:01:26,836
Speaker 1: understood its meaning at the time. You know, my mother

17
00:01:26,956 --> 00:01:31,476
Speaker 1: took me to a ballet school and my ballet master

18
00:01:31,716 --> 00:01:39,996
Speaker 1: told me one day that ecstasy comes from inside out.

19
00:01:40,916 --> 00:01:43,636
Speaker 1: And I had no idea what he was talking about.

20
00:01:44,116 --> 00:01:50,036
Speaker 1: But you know, in Auschwitz, it came to me when

21
00:01:50,156 --> 00:01:56,556
Speaker 1: nothing came from the outside. I still had my spirit

22
00:01:58,116 --> 00:02:06,516
Speaker 1: that no nuts she could take away. On today's episode,

23
00:02:06,756 --> 00:02:10,196
Speaker 1: we hear from doctor Edith Eager, ninety four year old

24
00:02:10,236 --> 00:02:16,196
Speaker 1: Holocaust survivor. I'm maya Shunker and this is a slight

25
00:02:16,276 --> 00:02:19,156
Speaker 1: change of plans, a show about who we are and

26
00:02:19,196 --> 00:02:22,756
Speaker 1: who we become in the face of a big change.

27
00:02:30,196 --> 00:02:33,996
Speaker 1: An estimated six million Jewish people were killed during the Holocaust.

28
00:02:34,516 --> 00:02:38,396
Speaker 1: More than half were murdered in concentration camps. The largest

29
00:02:38,436 --> 00:02:42,796
Speaker 1: and deadliest concentration camp was Auschwitz in Nazi occupied Poland.

30
00:02:43,516 --> 00:02:46,196
Speaker 1: More than a million Jewish people were killed there, many

31
00:02:46,196 --> 00:02:48,556
Speaker 1: of them sent directly to the gas chambers when they

32
00:02:48,636 --> 00:02:52,716
Speaker 1: arrived by train. Doctor Edith Eager is here today to

33
00:02:52,796 --> 00:02:57,196
Speaker 1: share her story of surviving Auschwitz. It was spring of

34
00:02:57,316 --> 00:03:00,036
Speaker 1: nineteen forty four when the Nazis came for Edith and

35
00:03:00,116 --> 00:03:03,676
Speaker 1: her family. Edith was sixteen and living with her parents

36
00:03:03,716 --> 00:03:07,596
Speaker 1: in Budapesh. Her oldest sister, Clara was off studying piano

37
00:03:07,676 --> 00:03:10,316
Speaker 1: in the city, but in the rest of her family,

38
00:03:10,476 --> 00:03:12,996
Speaker 1: her older sister Mada, and her mom and her dad

39
00:03:13,356 --> 00:03:18,836
Speaker 1: were home for state or dinner. After dinner, my father

40
00:03:19,036 --> 00:03:24,596
Speaker 1: got up and kissed us on our heads and we

41
00:03:24,716 --> 00:03:29,196
Speaker 1: went to sleep, and a couple hours later, big banging

42
00:03:29,236 --> 00:03:34,116
Speaker 1: on the door to get ready, to get ready, to quickly, quickly, quickly.

43
00:03:35,636 --> 00:03:39,556
Speaker 1: It was Nazi soldiers who were showing up. What happened

44
00:03:39,596 --> 00:03:47,596
Speaker 1: next when they came in The Hungarian Nazis were terrible, terrible,

45
00:03:48,236 --> 00:03:51,716
Speaker 1: so there was not a kind word or anything. You

46
00:03:52,396 --> 00:03:57,196
Speaker 1: become like someone who's done something bad. It didn't matter

47
00:03:57,316 --> 00:04:01,636
Speaker 1: what you said. It was no way out at that point.

48
00:04:01,716 --> 00:04:05,236
Speaker 1: It was too late. We were taken into a big

49
00:04:05,316 --> 00:04:12,196
Speaker 1: factory and from there to a train station to Oushwitz,

50
00:04:13,556 --> 00:04:20,076
Speaker 1: and we had to leave everything behind. I have a

51
00:04:20,116 --> 00:04:24,956
Speaker 1: picture of the dress that I wore, and was a

52
00:04:24,956 --> 00:04:29,636
Speaker 1: beautiful dress, and I wore it also a lot when

53
00:04:29,676 --> 00:04:35,916
Speaker 1: I was with my boyfriend. Wow. When you and your

54
00:04:35,956 --> 00:04:39,676
Speaker 1: parents and your sister Mata are put in a cattle

55
00:04:39,756 --> 00:04:44,716
Speaker 1: car and unbeknownst to you are heading to Auschwitz, your

56
00:04:44,796 --> 00:04:48,076
Speaker 1: mom tells you something on that ride that really sticks

57
00:04:48,116 --> 00:04:50,796
Speaker 1: with you. Do you mind sharing what she told you?

58
00:04:52,916 --> 00:04:57,356
Speaker 1: My mom looked at me and hugged me, and she said,

59
00:04:58,676 --> 00:05:01,876
Speaker 1: we don't know where be going, we don't know what's

60
00:05:01,916 --> 00:05:06,036
Speaker 1: going to happen. Just remember, no one can take away

61
00:05:06,076 --> 00:05:08,876
Speaker 1: from you what you put here in your own mind,

62
00:05:09,316 --> 00:05:14,956
Speaker 1: and that's exactly what happened. Everything was taken away from me.

63
00:05:17,756 --> 00:05:21,956
Speaker 1: When you arrive at Auschwitz, you are separated into two lines, right,

64
00:05:22,036 --> 00:05:25,836
Speaker 1: so everyone between ages fourteen and forty are put in

65
00:05:25,916 --> 00:05:29,876
Speaker 1: one line and everyone else is put into another. And

66
00:05:30,196 --> 00:05:36,796
Speaker 1: an officer named doctor Joseph Mangela, the infamous Nazi officer

67
00:05:36,956 --> 00:05:40,956
Speaker 1: known as the Angel of Death, ask you whether your

68
00:05:41,036 --> 00:05:44,436
Speaker 1: mom is in fact your mom or whether she's your sister,

69
00:05:45,156 --> 00:05:48,876
Speaker 1: and instinctively you answer with the truth, which is that

70
00:05:48,916 --> 00:05:52,396
Speaker 1: she is your mom. What happens next? What happens after

71
00:05:52,476 --> 00:05:57,356
Speaker 1: you tell him that she's your mom? He pointed my

72
00:05:57,436 --> 00:06:02,476
Speaker 1: mother to go that way, and my sister ride this way,

73
00:06:04,076 --> 00:06:08,236
Speaker 1: and I began to walk behind my mother. He came

74
00:06:09,116 --> 00:06:13,756
Speaker 1: and grabbed me. Never before, I never forget those eyes,

75
00:06:14,796 --> 00:06:17,276
Speaker 1: and he said, you're gonna see your mother very soon.

76
00:06:17,756 --> 00:06:25,436
Speaker 1: She's just gonna take a shower. M Later on, you

77
00:06:25,556 --> 00:06:29,796
Speaker 1: engage with a couple a fellow prisoner who supervises other prisoners,

78
00:06:29,796 --> 00:06:32,756
Speaker 1: and you ask her when will I see my mother again?

79
00:06:32,956 --> 00:06:35,516
Speaker 1: I was told I would see her soon, and that's

80
00:06:35,516 --> 00:06:42,196
Speaker 1: when she she delivers this devastating news to you. I said, well,

81
00:06:42,276 --> 00:06:44,796
Speaker 1: I want to know, Ben, will I meet my mother?

82
00:06:44,956 --> 00:06:49,596
Speaker 1: And she pointed the chimney and she said, she's burning dead.

83
00:06:50,716 --> 00:06:55,196
Speaker 1: She said, you better talk about her in past tense.

84
00:06:56,076 --> 00:07:01,476
Speaker 1: She used that kind of a language. Everybody over forty,

85
00:07:01,516 --> 00:07:09,476
Speaker 1: everybody under fourteen, they're never given a chance, maybe taken

86
00:07:09,556 --> 00:07:14,836
Speaker 1: to the chamber and mass. Sister and Magda hugged me

87
00:07:14,996 --> 00:07:23,276
Speaker 1: and said, despit it never dies. That's obviously such a

88
00:07:23,316 --> 00:07:27,036
Speaker 1: powerful thing to tell you in a moment of acute

89
00:07:27,036 --> 00:07:31,636
Speaker 1: shock and trauma and grief. And then to pile on

90
00:07:31,716 --> 00:07:33,836
Speaker 1: top of all of that, you have to see your

91
00:07:33,876 --> 00:07:37,876
Speaker 1: parents killer again. That night, you see Joseph Mangela again.

92
00:07:37,916 --> 00:07:41,916
Speaker 1: That night he asks you to dance for him as

93
00:07:41,956 --> 00:07:45,716
Speaker 1: a form of entertainment in the barracks, and you have

94
00:07:45,876 --> 00:07:51,196
Speaker 1: this realization for the first time that while your physical

95
00:07:51,236 --> 00:07:54,996
Speaker 1: freedom has been entirely stripped from you, you still have

96
00:07:55,116 --> 00:07:58,236
Speaker 1: control over some of the mental choices that you make.

97
00:07:58,876 --> 00:08:02,796
Speaker 1: That you can reframe this dance in a way that

98
00:08:02,916 --> 00:08:09,076
Speaker 1: nourishes you and helps bring you some kind of sustenance

99
00:08:09,276 --> 00:08:12,436
Speaker 1: in that moment. Can you share more about how you

100
00:08:12,476 --> 00:08:18,116
Speaker 1: reframed that dance, what you visualized. I closed my eyes

101
00:08:19,436 --> 00:08:25,596
Speaker 1: and I imagined that the music was Tchaikovsky, and I

102
00:08:25,716 --> 00:08:34,876
Speaker 1: was dancing the Rome and Juliet at these That's how

103
00:08:36,636 --> 00:08:42,516
Speaker 1: I think it's very important to think about you're thinking,

104
00:08:42,756 --> 00:08:49,156
Speaker 1: because whatever you think, you create. The feeling comes from

105
00:08:49,236 --> 00:08:55,996
Speaker 1: your thoughts. There's there's this moment of generosity that you

106
00:08:56,076 --> 00:09:02,196
Speaker 1: display where Mangela offers you bread after your dance and

107
00:09:02,316 --> 00:09:05,596
Speaker 1: you end up sharing it with the girls that are

108
00:09:05,636 --> 00:09:11,996
Speaker 1: around you, right you know. I looked at there and

109
00:09:11,996 --> 00:09:14,276
Speaker 1: and I wanted to garbble it up. And then I

110
00:09:14,316 --> 00:09:20,876
Speaker 1: looked up and I said to myself, no way, and

111
00:09:21,036 --> 00:09:25,356
Speaker 1: I shared the bread. It was one foot one head,

112
00:09:25,436 --> 00:09:29,116
Speaker 1: one foot one head. That's how we slept. There were

113
00:09:29,236 --> 00:09:34,356
Speaker 1: very little spaces between us, so we really had to cooperate,

114
00:09:35,356 --> 00:09:43,796
Speaker 1: not complete. And when I danced and I got that

115
00:09:43,836 --> 00:09:49,836
Speaker 1: piece of bread, it was the best thing that I

116
00:09:49,916 --> 00:09:58,036
Speaker 1: remember that I did with a little piece of bread

117
00:09:59,436 --> 00:10:07,436
Speaker 1: that six of us were enjoying. There's this really beautiful

118
00:10:07,996 --> 00:10:13,036
Speaker 1: moment you share at Magda where that exceptional quality comes

119
00:10:13,036 --> 00:10:16,996
Speaker 1: out and you Edith where where again you realize that

120
00:10:17,396 --> 00:10:21,196
Speaker 1: you have control over your mind. And so your sister,

121
00:10:21,436 --> 00:10:24,916
Speaker 1: who had for so long prided herself on being the

122
00:10:24,956 --> 00:10:28,756
Speaker 1: beauty in your family comes to you. She has just

123
00:10:28,836 --> 00:10:32,116
Speaker 1: had her head shaven by the Nazis, and she asked

124
00:10:32,116 --> 00:10:38,476
Speaker 1: you how she looks. I realized then as you realize

125
00:10:38,556 --> 00:10:43,356
Speaker 1: now too. I'm sure that I could point out what

126
00:10:43,556 --> 00:10:49,876
Speaker 1: she lost or pay attention to what she still had left.

127
00:10:50,996 --> 00:10:54,676
Speaker 1: So instead of telling her how she lived in her nakedness,

128
00:10:55,036 --> 00:10:58,516
Speaker 1: I said, Magda, you have beautiful eyes, and I didn't

129
00:10:58,516 --> 00:11:01,236
Speaker 1: see it when you had your hair all over her place,

130
00:11:02,716 --> 00:11:06,116
Speaker 1: as she said, thank you. Wow, that is so moving.

131
00:11:06,596 --> 00:11:10,516
Speaker 1: You gotta change your thinking and look at the problem

132
00:11:10,556 --> 00:11:14,476
Speaker 1: as a challenge and look at the crisis as a transition.

133
00:11:15,036 --> 00:11:19,036
Speaker 1: I think it's very important to think a boy you're thinking.

134
00:11:21,036 --> 00:11:23,716
Speaker 1: Towards the end of the war, the Nazis forced the

135
00:11:23,756 --> 00:11:27,396
Speaker 1: prisoners at your camp to relocate to another camp in

136
00:11:27,436 --> 00:11:32,676
Speaker 1: what became known as the Death March from Auschwitz, and

137
00:11:32,796 --> 00:11:36,356
Speaker 1: you had to walk over thirty four miles. So many

138
00:11:36,396 --> 00:11:40,876
Speaker 1: people died from weakness and illness along the way, and

139
00:11:41,436 --> 00:11:44,836
Speaker 1: officers were known to shoot at anybody who lagged behind,

140
00:11:45,196 --> 00:11:49,276
Speaker 1: anyone who fall behind, And at one point edith you

141
00:11:49,436 --> 00:11:53,836
Speaker 1: found yourself unable to keep walking due to extreme exhaustion.

142
00:11:54,756 --> 00:11:57,476
Speaker 1: You saw the kindness you had paid to others paid

143
00:11:57,516 --> 00:12:00,076
Speaker 1: back to you during this experience. Right you had shared

144
00:12:00,116 --> 00:12:02,836
Speaker 1: the small piece of bread that you were given with

145
00:12:03,316 --> 00:12:07,236
Speaker 1: the other girls, and in turn, when you were walking

146
00:12:07,236 --> 00:12:10,796
Speaker 1: what you believe would be your last steps, they used

147
00:12:10,916 --> 00:12:14,716
Speaker 1: their arms to create this chair for you and help

148
00:12:14,836 --> 00:12:19,996
Speaker 1: you continue forward, help you survive. Thank god I did,

149
00:12:20,796 --> 00:12:27,756
Speaker 1: because when I was in a dead march, when you stopped,

150
00:12:27,796 --> 00:12:32,676
Speaker 1: you were shot, and when a ghost so saw me

151
00:12:34,676 --> 00:12:39,716
Speaker 1: just I was so tired. And this is you know,

152
00:12:39,876 --> 00:12:44,636
Speaker 1: when when I thought I'm really going to die, I

153
00:12:44,716 --> 00:12:49,196
Speaker 1: didn't think I can walk anymore, and they came and

154
00:12:49,236 --> 00:12:56,276
Speaker 1: they carried me. Imagine how the worst condition brings out

155
00:12:56,636 --> 00:13:01,836
Speaker 1: the bestiness. I wouldn't have made it if I would

156
00:13:01,876 --> 00:13:12,476
Speaker 1: have garbled up that bread that giving is getting. We'll

157
00:13:12,516 --> 00:13:14,956
Speaker 1: be back in a moment with a slight change of plans.

158
00:13:24,516 --> 00:13:27,396
Speaker 1: Doctor Edith Eager was just sixteen years old when she

159
00:13:27,476 --> 00:13:30,356
Speaker 1: was put on a train to Auschwitz. She spent a

160
00:13:30,396 --> 00:13:35,196
Speaker 1: total of eight months in Nazi concentration camps. After enduring

161
00:13:35,236 --> 00:13:38,676
Speaker 1: what is known as the death March from Auschwitz to Austria,

162
00:13:38,916 --> 00:13:42,476
Speaker 1: Edith was on the brink of death herself, but then

163
00:13:42,596 --> 00:13:46,036
Speaker 1: on May fourth, nineteen forty five troops from the US

164
00:13:46,156 --> 00:13:50,076
Speaker 1: Army's seventy first Infantry came in and liberated the people

165
00:13:50,116 --> 00:13:54,436
Speaker 1: at the camp. An American soldier found Edith lying among

166
00:13:54,436 --> 00:13:58,276
Speaker 1: the dead. He noticed her hand moving slightly. She was

167
00:13:58,316 --> 00:14:02,516
Speaker 1: in terrible condition. She had typhoid, fever, pneumonia, and a

168
00:14:02,556 --> 00:14:06,316
Speaker 1: broken back. The soldier called for medical help and brought

169
00:14:06,436 --> 00:14:09,956
Speaker 1: Edith to safety. For the entire of her time in

170
00:14:09,956 --> 00:14:13,356
Speaker 1: the concentration camps, Edith had been holding out some small

171
00:14:13,436 --> 00:14:16,756
Speaker 1: hope that her parents and boyfriend might still be alive,

172
00:14:17,556 --> 00:14:20,516
Speaker 1: but after she was rescued, she learned that the Nazis

173
00:14:20,556 --> 00:14:25,676
Speaker 1: had murdered all of them. One thing I so appreciate

174
00:14:25,716 --> 00:14:30,676
Speaker 1: about how you share your story, Edith, is that you

175
00:14:30,796 --> 00:14:35,836
Speaker 1: refuse to make a clean delineation between imprisonment and liberation.

176
00:14:36,596 --> 00:14:38,796
Speaker 1: I hope you don't mind my quoting you. You said

177
00:14:40,036 --> 00:14:42,596
Speaker 1: I thought my freedom would begin the moment the war

178
00:14:42,796 --> 00:14:46,396
Speaker 1: ended and the death camps were liberated. I didn't know

179
00:14:46,556 --> 00:14:49,436
Speaker 1: that the worst prison was not the one the Nazis

180
00:14:49,436 --> 00:14:52,316
Speaker 1: put me in, but the one I built for myself

181
00:14:52,796 --> 00:14:55,716
Speaker 1: in the decades after the war, when I chose to

182
00:14:55,756 --> 00:14:59,036
Speaker 1: stay a hostage of the past, stuck in a mental

183
00:14:59,076 --> 00:15:05,276
Speaker 1: prison of secrets, survivor's guilt, and self limiting beliefs. You

184
00:15:05,356 --> 00:15:07,876
Speaker 1: mentioned that you didn't feel suicidal when you were in

185
00:15:07,956 --> 00:15:12,076
Speaker 1: the concentration camp, but it was upon release that that's

186
00:15:12,116 --> 00:15:17,396
Speaker 1: when you encountered this profound depression. What was the difference?

187
00:15:18,156 --> 00:15:21,956
Speaker 1: Because my parents didn't come home while I was in

188
00:15:22,036 --> 00:15:27,836
Speaker 1: a camp. I could imagine the beautiful meeting with my

189
00:15:28,036 --> 00:15:32,196
Speaker 1: parents with my boyfriend. None of that came true, and

190
00:15:32,236 --> 00:15:37,516
Speaker 1: I had nothing to live for, no meaning, no perfect nothing,

191
00:15:38,556 --> 00:15:45,276
Speaker 1: And I talked about that existential vacuum that you don't

192
00:15:45,356 --> 00:15:50,036
Speaker 1: have anything to get up for. So we agree, well,

193
00:15:50,116 --> 00:15:54,316
Speaker 1: we're not what happened, But what didn't happen? When my

194
00:15:54,396 --> 00:15:58,996
Speaker 1: granddaughter wanted to go to her dance at the school

195
00:15:59,396 --> 00:16:02,676
Speaker 1: and asked me to buy a pretty dress. I did

196
00:16:03,516 --> 00:16:07,276
Speaker 1: a beautiful dress, and I came home and out of

197
00:16:07,316 --> 00:16:10,596
Speaker 1: the blue, I was crying. I didn't get it was

198
00:16:10,636 --> 00:16:13,356
Speaker 1: the matter with me? What am I crying about? I

199
00:16:13,476 --> 00:16:16,396
Speaker 1: just bought Lindsey a dress so she can go to

200
00:16:16,516 --> 00:16:20,556
Speaker 1: her dance. And then I realized that I didn't cry

201
00:16:20,596 --> 00:16:25,276
Speaker 1: because of that. I cried because I never went to

202
00:16:25,356 --> 00:16:30,836
Speaker 1: a dance. And that's what grief is. All about not

203
00:16:31,036 --> 00:16:37,916
Speaker 1: what happened, but what did happen. I will never forget Auschwitz.

204
00:16:38,476 --> 00:16:42,236
Speaker 1: I don't overcome it. I don't know that word at all,

205
00:16:44,236 --> 00:16:48,916
Speaker 1: but I call it my cherished wound. And I have

206
00:16:48,996 --> 00:16:53,756
Speaker 1: a special place in my heart, specially for my boyfriend

207
00:16:53,796 --> 00:16:59,756
Speaker 1: who was killed a day before liberation. So not to

208
00:16:59,876 --> 00:17:04,236
Speaker 1: run away from the past, and not to run away

209
00:17:04,436 --> 00:17:10,556
Speaker 1: from crying, because then you cry, you get rid of

210
00:17:10,756 --> 00:17:15,556
Speaker 1: something that vehicle fully say, oh I had a good

211
00:17:15,596 --> 00:17:19,996
Speaker 1: cry and I feel better. Yeah. One thing that I

212
00:17:20,036 --> 00:17:24,476
Speaker 1: think will be so important for people to hear from

213
00:17:24,516 --> 00:17:29,236
Speaker 1: you is in your book you mentioned one thing you

214
00:17:29,276 --> 00:17:32,196
Speaker 1: can't change is the past, and there has to be

215
00:17:32,196 --> 00:17:37,036
Speaker 1: an acceptance around that, and you talk about how you

216
00:17:37,076 --> 00:17:42,876
Speaker 1: were plagued by guilt for so many years around that

217
00:17:42,956 --> 00:17:47,316
Speaker 1: answer you gave to Joseph mangela right, why didn't I

218
00:17:47,356 --> 00:17:50,396
Speaker 1: tell him that my mom was my sister that plagued

219
00:17:50,436 --> 00:17:54,156
Speaker 1: you for so long, even though Edith you were a child.

220
00:17:54,636 --> 00:17:57,036
Speaker 1: You know what, how are you supposed to know what

221
00:17:57,196 --> 00:18:00,036
Speaker 1: the outcome was going to be? But it is not

222
00:18:00,236 --> 00:18:04,556
Speaker 1: uncommon for people to wrongly blame themselves for what happens,

223
00:18:04,676 --> 00:18:08,076
Speaker 1: and so I would love to hear about how you

224
00:18:08,196 --> 00:18:11,476
Speaker 1: found accepted in that and how you came to how

225
00:18:11,516 --> 00:18:17,276
Speaker 1: you found peace in what happened. I think there is

226
00:18:17,356 --> 00:18:24,396
Speaker 1: one very short sentence that if I knew then, I

227
00:18:24,516 --> 00:18:28,716
Speaker 1: would have done things differently. If you knew then what

228
00:18:28,876 --> 00:18:32,316
Speaker 1: you know now, it would have been a very different picture.

229
00:18:33,236 --> 00:18:36,516
Speaker 1: My parents had tickets to go to America and they

230
00:18:36,556 --> 00:18:40,356
Speaker 1: never used it, and that's why I think they would

231
00:18:40,356 --> 00:18:47,316
Speaker 1: help everybody. Just one sentence and forgive yourself. So I

232
00:18:47,516 --> 00:18:50,916
Speaker 1: like to live in a present. The question is not

233
00:18:51,116 --> 00:18:57,996
Speaker 1: why me? The question is what now? Because the past

234
00:18:58,236 --> 00:19:04,836
Speaker 1: is gone and the future is not yet. Wow. You

235
00:19:04,916 --> 00:19:08,996
Speaker 1: ended up moving to the US and trained to become

236
00:19:09,316 --> 00:19:15,796
Speaker 1: a psychotherapist, doctor Edith. Your life's work has been to

237
00:19:15,956 --> 00:19:21,236
Speaker 1: help people who have had trauma quote escape the concentration

238
00:19:21,316 --> 00:19:24,036
Speaker 1: camp of their own minds. That's how you've talked about

239
00:19:24,076 --> 00:19:27,276
Speaker 1: your work. And what's interesting is that you've said it

240
00:19:27,316 --> 00:19:31,236
Speaker 1: actually took you years to finally free yourself. Right, You

241
00:19:31,276 --> 00:19:34,796
Speaker 1: were freeing all of these people through your clinical practice,

242
00:19:35,476 --> 00:19:39,356
Speaker 1: but to do that for yourself took more time and

243
00:19:39,436 --> 00:19:45,036
Speaker 1: more work. What was that process? Like? I was talking

244
00:19:45,076 --> 00:19:50,116
Speaker 1: to paraplegics and one of them was why me? And

245
00:19:52,236 --> 00:19:59,916
Speaker 1: terribly angry and blaming and blaming God's country. And conversely,

246
00:20:00,356 --> 00:20:04,116
Speaker 1: I say that that there was another guy with the

247
00:20:04,196 --> 00:20:13,276
Speaker 1: same symptomatology, same diagnosis, same prognosis, and told me, hey, hey, doc,

248
00:20:14,436 --> 00:20:18,036
Speaker 1: I'm in a wheelchair and I can see my children's

249
00:20:18,076 --> 00:20:21,636
Speaker 1: eyes much closer. And I was given a second chance

250
00:20:21,676 --> 00:20:30,556
Speaker 1: and life. And I feel lie and impastor and I'm

251
00:20:30,556 --> 00:20:34,396
Speaker 1: wearing a white coat and it says doctor Eager, Department

252
00:20:34,476 --> 00:20:39,076
Speaker 1: of Psychiatry. I went to school, and I went to school,

253
00:20:39,076 --> 00:20:43,996
Speaker 1: and I went to school, and that's when I decided

254
00:20:44,196 --> 00:20:49,876
Speaker 1: I must go back to our streets. I revisited that place,

255
00:20:50,996 --> 00:20:56,276
Speaker 1: and I started to cry buckets that I'm here looking

256
00:20:56,316 --> 00:21:00,356
Speaker 1: at it rather than being in the ditch where I

257
00:21:00,396 --> 00:21:04,876
Speaker 1: would have been in no time at all. I think

258
00:21:04,916 --> 00:21:10,356
Speaker 1: it's very important to make peace the past, not to

259
00:21:10,476 --> 00:21:14,396
Speaker 1: run from it or fight it, and not to try

260
00:21:14,436 --> 00:21:20,036
Speaker 1: to forget it, because that's when I learned that life

261
00:21:20,076 --> 00:21:26,076
Speaker 1: is from inside out. It's up to me what I

262
00:21:26,196 --> 00:21:33,356
Speaker 1: do with the external circumstance. So it's very important not

263
00:21:33,476 --> 00:21:36,276
Speaker 1: to run away from the past the way I did.

264
00:21:36,956 --> 00:21:40,516
Speaker 1: I didn't tell anyone I was in Auschwitz close to

265
00:21:40,556 --> 00:21:43,916
Speaker 1: twenty years If you ask me who I was, I

266
00:21:43,916 --> 00:21:46,196
Speaker 1: would say, who do you want me to be? You'll

267
00:21:46,276 --> 00:21:54,596
Speaker 1: become a very, very talented schizophrenic. It must have been

268
00:21:54,676 --> 00:21:59,276
Speaker 1: so painful for you to return to the place where

269
00:21:59,276 --> 00:22:02,956
Speaker 1: you experience the most profound trauma a human can experience

270
00:22:02,996 --> 00:22:06,796
Speaker 1: in their life. When I went back to our Shwitz

271
00:22:08,516 --> 00:22:14,796
Speaker 1: for a moment, I tooed I so Anazi, it was

272
00:22:14,836 --> 00:22:20,276
Speaker 1: a person in uniform. But when I realized that I

273
00:22:20,356 --> 00:22:26,636
Speaker 1: have an passport in my pocket and that time free,

274
00:22:29,796 --> 00:22:37,836
Speaker 1: and I was so glad that I was able to

275
00:22:37,876 --> 00:22:41,756
Speaker 1: go back to Auschwitz and go back to the lions

276
00:22:41,876 --> 00:22:46,236
Speaker 1: then and look at that lion and tell them that

277
00:22:46,356 --> 00:22:51,636
Speaker 1: I'm gonna take my freedom, and I'm gonna stop blaming myself.

278
00:22:51,916 --> 00:22:56,676
Speaker 1: And I've stopped running around with survivors. Geared that even

279
00:22:56,716 --> 00:23:00,716
Speaker 1: when I was graduating kum Loud there, I didn't show

280
00:23:00,796 --> 00:23:04,556
Speaker 1: up for my graduation because I had so much survivor's

281
00:23:04,676 --> 00:23:10,676
Speaker 1: guard that I didn't deserve it because they were And

282
00:23:10,756 --> 00:23:14,316
Speaker 1: that's a whole new interview you and I can talk on,

283
00:23:15,476 --> 00:23:24,796
Speaker 1: is how you deny your successes and that gave yourself permission,

284
00:23:26,596 --> 00:23:31,756
Speaker 1: give yourself permission to go through the age. There is

285
00:23:31,796 --> 00:23:45,996
Speaker 1: no forgiveness without going true that age. And it's hard

286
00:23:46,036 --> 00:23:48,236
Speaker 1: for me to articulate this, I guess, so I'll try.

287
00:23:48,236 --> 00:23:53,836
Speaker 1: I'll just try my best. But as a sixteen year old,

288
00:23:55,676 --> 00:24:03,476
Speaker 1: you somehow had the cognitive wherewithal to identify moments, however small,

289
00:24:03,516 --> 00:24:08,276
Speaker 1: in your experience, in outfits where you could control your

290
00:24:08,316 --> 00:24:12,596
Speaker 1: own mind, where you took power away from the Nazis

291
00:24:13,516 --> 00:24:18,196
Speaker 1: and gave that power to yourself. And I wonder, how

292
00:24:18,796 --> 00:24:22,516
Speaker 1: did that just come naturally to you? Did you feel

293
00:24:23,716 --> 00:24:27,716
Speaker 1: it was an intentional act on your part? And I

294
00:24:27,756 --> 00:24:32,836
Speaker 1: asked this, Edith, because your mind is so remarkable and

295
00:24:33,596 --> 00:24:36,396
Speaker 1: unusual in nature, and I'm trying to figure out if

296
00:24:36,436 --> 00:24:40,436
Speaker 1: we can even relate to you. I've read your work,

297
00:24:40,516 --> 00:24:43,596
Speaker 1: and I know you mentioned that your sister Magda doesn't

298
00:24:43,636 --> 00:24:47,516
Speaker 1: share the same instincts as you. Right, she would fantasize,

299
00:24:47,756 --> 00:24:51,916
Speaker 1: I think, so understandably about getting revenge on the Nazis

300
00:24:51,956 --> 00:24:57,836
Speaker 1: and murdering the Nazis. And I think probably more people

301
00:24:57,876 --> 00:25:00,436
Speaker 1: can relate to her point of view than yours, because

302
00:25:00,476 --> 00:25:03,156
Speaker 1: yours is so exceptional. And I want to know for

303
00:25:03,276 --> 00:25:08,596
Speaker 1: those listening who want to cultivate a doctor Edith mindset

304
00:25:08,876 --> 00:25:14,836
Speaker 1: is our way for us to cultivate it. I decided

305
00:25:15,676 --> 00:25:21,876
Speaker 1: that they are the prisoners, not me. So I turned

306
00:25:21,916 --> 00:25:28,836
Speaker 1: hatred it to pity that they be bearing at uniform

307
00:25:28,876 --> 00:25:33,876
Speaker 1: and they murdering children, and so does hate return to

308
00:25:34,036 --> 00:25:42,596
Speaker 1: be pity. I ended up praying for them in my

309
00:25:42,676 --> 00:25:51,236
Speaker 1: own way, um that that that they are really the

310
00:25:51,396 --> 00:25:56,916
Speaker 1: true prisoners, not me. Forgiveness is a gift that I

311
00:25:56,956 --> 00:26:01,596
Speaker 1: give myself that I don't carry. Then arswer with me

312
00:26:01,876 --> 00:26:05,396
Speaker 1: that I don't carry the hatred me. That is really

313
00:26:05,396 --> 00:26:08,916
Speaker 1: not going to empower me. It's going to deplete me.

314
00:26:10,036 --> 00:26:14,196
Speaker 1: And I and I don't want to give another inch.

315
00:26:15,356 --> 00:26:19,596
Speaker 1: And I want to live a full life. I want

316
00:26:19,636 --> 00:26:23,076
Speaker 1: to have love and faith and I and I want

317
00:26:23,236 --> 00:26:30,716
Speaker 1: to have passion for life. I'm wondering, how would you

318
00:26:30,996 --> 00:26:37,756
Speaker 1: capture the biggest way in which you changed through this experience,

319
00:26:39,676 --> 00:26:44,236
Speaker 1: ah All. I can tell you that I live in

320
00:26:44,276 --> 00:26:55,316
Speaker 1: a present, and I stay away from why questions because

321
00:26:55,516 --> 00:27:00,436
Speaker 1: why it requires that, because and that requires to really

322
00:27:00,556 --> 00:27:06,396
Speaker 1: know all the reasons why you are the way you are.

323
00:27:07,996 --> 00:27:21,996
Speaker 1: So I live today, yesterday, he's gone. Tomorrow is not

324
00:27:22,196 --> 00:27:28,236
Speaker 1: yet as I told you, and I am in the

325
00:27:28,276 --> 00:27:37,116
Speaker 1: process of discovery, not recovery, but discovery. The discovery apparts

326
00:27:37,156 --> 00:27:41,996
Speaker 1: in me that doesn't hold on to the past, that

327
00:27:41,996 --> 00:27:50,436
Speaker 1: does not ever falls into the victim's mentality. I was victimized.

328
00:27:50,556 --> 00:27:58,236
Speaker 1: It's not my it's not my personality, it's not who

329
00:27:58,396 --> 00:28:04,796
Speaker 1: I am. And I think that's why I'm so happy

330
00:28:04,916 --> 00:28:08,756
Speaker 1: that my book is gonna be in my grand great

331
00:28:08,836 --> 00:28:13,956
Speaker 1: grand children's living room. I have seven of those, and

332
00:28:14,036 --> 00:28:17,836
Speaker 1: I think that I can be a good roma to

333
00:28:17,956 --> 00:28:22,796
Speaker 1: everyone to write that book. Edith, your book is going

334
00:28:22,876 --> 00:28:27,316
Speaker 1: to be in my great grandchildren's living room. It's going

335
00:28:27,396 --> 00:28:29,516
Speaker 1: to be in all of our living rooms. It is

336
00:28:30,276 --> 00:28:38,356
Speaker 1: an unbelievable work of art and humanity and science. And wow,

337
00:28:40,036 --> 00:28:43,756
Speaker 1: a lot of tears every page, a lot of tears.

338
00:28:44,156 --> 00:28:47,756
Speaker 1: And I think crying is very good as long as

339
00:28:47,836 --> 00:28:52,836
Speaker 1: it doesn't take you away from the present, because that's

340
00:28:52,876 --> 00:29:05,956
Speaker 1: the only thing you can change. Thanks so much for listening.

341
00:29:06,596 --> 00:29:08,836
Speaker 1: Join me next week when I talk to doctor Eelat

342
00:29:08,876 --> 00:29:12,196
Speaker 1: fish Bach, a professor of psychology an expert in the

343
00:29:12,276 --> 00:29:15,276
Speaker 1: science of motivation. She'll teach us how to set smarter

344
00:29:15,396 --> 00:29:18,796
Speaker 1: goals for ourselves and give us science based strategies to

345
00:29:18,836 --> 00:29:30,476
Speaker 1: help us reach them. A slight change of plans is

346
00:29:30,516 --> 00:29:34,036
Speaker 1: created written an executive produce by me Maya Schunker. The

347
00:29:34,196 --> 00:29:37,996
Speaker 1: Slight Change Family includes Tyler Green our senior producer, Emily

348
00:29:38,116 --> 00:29:41,996
Speaker 1: Rosteck our producer and fact checker, Jen Guera, our senior editor,

349
00:29:42,356 --> 00:29:46,516
Speaker 1: Ben Holiday our sound engineer, and Neil Lavelle, our executive producer.

350
00:29:47,196 --> 00:29:50,036
Speaker 1: Louis Skara wrote our theme song, and Ginger Smith helped

351
00:29:50,076 --> 00:29:52,996
Speaker 1: arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is a

352
00:29:52,996 --> 00:29:56,276
Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries. So big thanks to everyone there,

353
00:29:56,716 --> 00:30:01,956
Speaker 1: including Nicolemrano, Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler, Heather Fame and Carly Niggliori,

354
00:30:02,556 --> 00:30:05,676
Speaker 1: and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee.

355
00:30:06,196 --> 00:30:08,636
Speaker 1: You can follow a Slight Change of Plans on Instagram

356
00:30:08,676 --> 00:30:30,396
Speaker 1: at your Maya Sugar. I hope you'll do that someday

357
00:30:32,036 --> 00:30:36,836
Speaker 1: that we can exchange philosophies and do a semin up together.

358
00:30:37,236 --> 00:30:39,236
Speaker 1: Oh that would be a dream for me and it

359
00:30:39,396 --> 00:30:42,196
Speaker 1: was such an honor. I look forward to staying in touch.

360
00:30:42,916 --> 00:30:47,716
Speaker 1: Me too, me too, me too, Please do that definitely.

361
00:30:48,036 --> 00:30:50,396
Speaker 1: I love you, I love you too, Eadie