Speaker 1: Hi, how are you.
Speaker 2: I'm good. How are you?
Speaker 1: I'm good. I'm sorry if I just went in the
Speaker 1: ocean because I was here for like Miami Swing Week
Speaker 1: and it was on.
Speaker 2: Dude, you looked fucking amazing.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 2: I appreciate that. Well, look, I'm above forty. I know
Speaker 2: what it takes to keep your body snatched past that age.
Speaker 2: So you literally gave the young chicks a run for
Speaker 2: their money. And that's always fun, isn't it.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm sure you've done that as well.
Speaker 2: I don't care anymore, so I don't even try.
Speaker 1: I've never cared. I don't. I never cared. I don't.
Speaker 1: Like I was talking about it today, I did a
Speaker 1: post about like everyone's like, what do you do and
Speaker 1: what do you do? I don't. I walk. That's all
Speaker 1: I do is walk. I don't do weights. I don't
Speaker 1: go to the gym. I think people do too much
Speaker 1: and they like beat themselves up and it's like fear based.
Speaker 1: And I just feel like I look natural because I
Speaker 1: add natural. I just have always just wanted to walk
Speaker 1: and have a good relationship with food and exercise. And
Speaker 1: I think women are struggling and like beating the shit
Speaker 1: out of themselves trying to get to somewhere, and I
Speaker 1: think every want to say this. This show did show
Speaker 1: me women really appreciating their own bodies like they were
Speaker 1: very It was a lot of empowerment. They really did
Speaker 1: love their bodies.
Speaker 2: See I binge on the weekends and I kill myself
Speaker 2: in the gym, but I love it. But that's because
Speaker 2: I'm an addictive personality. So I had to find something
Speaker 2: healthy to do. And the healthy thing for me to
Speaker 2: do is to work out, and I really enjoy Like Saturdays,
Speaker 2: I'll eat like two pizzas and like six cinnamon rolls
Speaker 2: until I feel like it was Thanksgiving Day. I'm like
Speaker 2: puking in my mind. I've got yeah. But then the
Speaker 2: next day I'm eating cottage cheese and two good yogurts
Speaker 2: and like you know, chicken breast and some asparagus because
Speaker 2: I yeah, I feel like you have to live. And
Speaker 2: because of what I used to do, I know, ever
Speaker 2: got to enjoy food. And I'm Italian, so I want food.
Speaker 2: So now I give that one day where I et
Speaker 2: whatever I want until I can't.
Speaker 1: But that brings up a good point because that's your
Speaker 1: version of self regulation. That's your version of your relationship
Speaker 1: with food. If if you feel healthy about it, if
Speaker 1: it makes you feel good and you're not triggered by
Speaker 1: it or concerned by that's your version. For me, I organize.
Speaker 1: My addiction is organizing things. Everything has to be in order.
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, it's a response or it's as
Speaker 1: a result of my childhood, but like mine is things
Speaker 1: in order. But it was a lot of messages this
Speaker 1: weekend about all of this and women and the struggle
Speaker 1: and thirty year olds saying a lot of this, which
Speaker 1: is weird, Like a lot of thirty year olds saying
Speaker 1: you make me feel like I'm not I haven't peaked yet,
Speaker 1: and like I could have my era at any age.
Speaker 1: Like the woman who works for me is thirty one,
Speaker 1: and she's like, I don't feel great about myself. I
Speaker 1: feel like I'm not at my best now after my baby,
Speaker 1: but like now you make me fe like I have
Speaker 1: so much time, you know, to figure it all out.
Speaker 1: And then women my age are saying, thank you for
Speaker 1: not making everybody think that we're just like old and
Speaker 1: washed up. Like so it hit two things at this end.
Speaker 1: It hit the women that are your age saying wow,
Speaker 1: like look at like It just gave a perspective to age,
Speaker 1: which I think was unexpected by even me, by Sports Illustrated.
Speaker 1: I think it just like has become this thing that
Speaker 1: means so much more than what it actually was.
Speaker 2: See you're like the uh, I guess the TikTok version
Speaker 2: of Dame Helen Mirren who peaked later on in life.
Speaker 2: And everyone's like, who's this hot bitch? Look at her?
Speaker 2: And I mean, she's started peaking hard and she's still peaking.
Speaker 2: She's in that mob show. She looks great.
Speaker 1: That's funny. That's right. Wouldn't that be good? That would you?
Speaker 1: That's a good trajectory. Yeah, so maybe, but nothing's nothing
Speaker 1: of that was intentional. I'd just like to find the
Speaker 1: meaning and things and so it cannot be just like
Speaker 1: walking down a runway. As you know better than anyone.
Speaker 1: And I asked, I wanted you. I've never met you.
Speaker 1: I know who you are. Remember you were on the
Speaker 1: show with it was it Greg Braid which Brady and
Speaker 1: you were married, and that's what I remember. And you
Speaker 1: want to show you on Top Model and I'm so sorry, no,
Speaker 1: but that was that was a big media moment and
Speaker 1: I remember you from that and I've always remembered you
Speaker 1: as like a fun, sort of wild model. And then
Speaker 1: I was just scrolling and I saw you talking about
Speaker 1: selling Avon And it was right after having Susan powder
Speaker 1: On here telling me that she was an uber driver
Speaker 1: in Vegas and delivered food to Louis c K's house,
Speaker 1: and like there was like this moment about like people
Speaker 1: who everybody saw a certain way in society and media
Speaker 1: and fame, and it just like was weird that I
Speaker 1: saw you right after that, and it was just like,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I just was like, I want to
Speaker 1: talk to her about what this journey has been and
Speaker 1: like what that was about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting. So my season of Top Model, I
Speaker 2: was the only winner that won no money, zero dollars.
Speaker 1: What does that mean?
Speaker 2: That means there was no money in my win I got,
Speaker 2: I got a title. Well, they lied to our season
Speaker 2: and then they voiceovered what Tyra was saying. They told
Speaker 2: us we were going to be a Revlon cover girl,
Speaker 2: and Revlon told me afterwards we had no intention of
Speaker 2: doing that. And then when it aired on TV. You
Speaker 2: can ask any girl from my season, They're like they
Speaker 2: changed everything Tyra said to us. She was telling us
Speaker 2: we were going to be this huge Revlon like superstar,
Speaker 2: because I don't think any of us would have fought
Speaker 2: as hard as we did for what the prize really was,
Speaker 2: which is the title. So I always joke because people
Speaker 2: are like, you still call yourself America's next Top Model,
Speaker 2: and Mike, it's the only fucking thing I won. I'm
Speaker 2: gonna put it on my tombstone bed.
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Well wow, that's crazy because some of
Speaker 1: the girls. Was Kenley Collins on that or was she
Speaker 1: only a design show? There were some girls who come
Speaker 1: through my messages a lot because people from Project Runway
Speaker 1: and people with a model they get mixed in together
Speaker 1: with me. But like they reached out to me because
Speaker 1: of the Reality Reckoning and they're all like telling me
Speaker 1: all these crazy stories and like this is another one.
Speaker 1: You must have definitely seen the Reality Reckoning stuff and
Speaker 1: been like jumping up and down on your couch like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, like yes, right.
Speaker 2: You know what's really funny is everyone wanted me to
Speaker 2: dog pile on Tyra Banks when twenty twenty was happening
Speaker 2: and everyone was getting pissed, and I was like, no,
Speaker 2: because if anyone has a right to be mad at her.
Speaker 2: It's me and I'm over it. I don't give a
Speaker 2: shit anymore. What she taught me was the truth of entertainment.
Speaker 2: It's cutthroat. You can't trust everybody, and everyone is lying
Speaker 2: to you. So she actually gave me a great lesson
Speaker 2: and the show was just a avenue for her to
Speaker 2: propel herself into something else after she aged out of modeling.
Speaker 2: I see that now, and if I can let it go,
Speaker 2: everyone else can. It was funny because everyone's like, oh,
Speaker 2: she did this, she did that. But then I would
Speaker 2: look at the people who watched the show and I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 2: but you watched it, you made it popular. It's your
Speaker 2: fault too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you could say that about the house So the
Speaker 1: thing I have to say about that is the game
Speaker 1: moves fast when you're the talent in that situation, and
Speaker 1: it's really the production company totally, and she's part of it.
Speaker 1: But like as a housewife, like we're moving drama, we're
Speaker 1: not thinking, you know, when when someone's calling, When Teresa's calling,
Speaker 1: Danielle saw a prostitution horror on national television. She's not
Speaker 1: thinking about the fact that Andy Cohen's gonna unwatch what
Speaker 1: happens live, have that song like that sound like prostitution
Speaker 1: makes make rap songs out of it, and that it's
Speaker 1: gonna be at the Bravocon. They're gonna have like a
Speaker 1: reenactment of Prostitution War. There's a person that, no matter
Speaker 1: what she's done in her life, has two daughters that
Speaker 1: will see her as the prostitution War. That's like the
Speaker 1: production I think more not that Tyre wasn't part of it.
Speaker 1: It was her show, but I'm not even doing I
Speaker 1: don't know Tyra Banks, And all I'm saying is just interesting.
Speaker 1: The machine, it's a toxic machine where the ratings are
Speaker 1: by any means necessary ratings, right any it does not
Speaker 1: matter what it takes to get there. And you're right
Speaker 1: about the entertainment industry. And now it's probably scario because
Speaker 1: you know, people don't watch as much because they're watching
Speaker 1: an on their phone.
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: What do you think of all that I said? I
Speaker 1: may'd be wrong. I want to hear because I didn't
Speaker 1: watch the show that much. The audience takes the drug
Speaker 1: and they're addicted. You know, you know John Ham and
Speaker 1: very famous people go on watch Rapids live and last
Speaker 1: at these housewives shows that I was part of that
Speaker 1: like do ruin some people's lives, not everybody's, but there
Speaker 1: are a lot of casualties from these shows. And you're
Speaker 1: you know, yes, I agree.
Speaker 2: I went into post production on a show with Antonio
Speaker 2: Sopato Junior called Maya, Antonio and VH One because I
Speaker 2: wanted to learn the ends and outs and I wanted
Speaker 2: to be able to do post production work. And I did,
Speaker 2: and I helped vilify I wanted the contestants. Sure, she
Speaker 2: was kind of a villain, but I might have tweaked
Speaker 2: it a little bit to make her look worse. And
Speaker 2: I'll never forget it was the premiere party or the
Speaker 2: rap party. She came up to me and she was
Speaker 2: upset and she's like, you understand more than anyone what
Speaker 2: they can do to you. And I felt like the
Speaker 2: most rotten, soulless human being on earth. And I tapped
Speaker 2: out of post production. I never did it again, because
Speaker 2: I'm like, wow, man, I just jumped right into the machine.
Speaker 2: And I was so eager to please the executive producers
Speaker 2: and stuff like, look, I'm a hard worker. I'm more
Speaker 2: than just talent. I can actually work on a show.
Speaker 2: I have nothing to do with and be bad ass
Speaker 2: that I was helping, you know, Frank and bite conversations
Speaker 2: to make them worse than what they were, and I
Speaker 2: was the asshole.
Speaker 1: Here's the problem. You put me on the Sports Illustrated show.
Speaker 1: You give me direction, you tell me you have fun.
Speaker 1: You go out there, you be yourself. I went out there.
Speaker 1: I danced like I was in my own bathroom. I
Speaker 1: understood the assignment. And even in lorel when I wear
Speaker 1: giraffes shoes and I walked down like a giraffe like
Speaker 1: they said, you do what you want to do. I said, Okay.
Speaker 1: My point is I show up on time and I
Speaker 1: always land it whatever it is, or I don't go.
Speaker 1: So you go on reality television. I'm on the housewise,
Speaker 1: I'm there to make shit happen. Other people are supposed
Speaker 1: to be there for the same reason. If you're Tinsley Mortimer,
Speaker 1: a very lovely, sweet girl, you get caught in the
Speaker 1: crossfire of what we're doing in the goal of the show.
Speaker 1: Get the fuck out of the way. You shouldn't be here.
Speaker 1: Then we're you know, we're here to kill people. So
Speaker 1: that's the problem. That was what the nature of the
Speaker 1: Beast was the beast was create a show, make ratings,
Speaker 1: make drama. That's what HEDI do. That's what Spencer did,
Speaker 1: That's what you know. So it's really the responsibility is
Speaker 1: the teacher has to have some control over the classroom totally.
Speaker 2: And that's why when people are like, well, aren't you
Speaker 2: mad at Tyra, I'm like, no, Tyra was a snake
Speaker 2: and a pit of vipers that learned how to survive exactly,
Speaker 2: So why would I be mad at her? For literally
Speaker 2: her entire life since she was like fourteen, she was
Speaker 2: in modeling, which is the viper pit of all viper pits.
Speaker 2: She is a product of her entire life, and I'm
Speaker 2: like whatever, Like she's just trying to breathe and live.
Speaker 1: So period. Yeah, so you and also, you know, business
Speaker 1: is hard and being an entertainment person, being a talent
Speaker 1: and being a business person, being a creative and a
Speaker 1: business person is not easy. I mean, if you listen
Speaker 1: to Susan Powder talk about the fact that she sold
Speaker 1: it was three hundred million dollars and she's an uber
Speaker 1: driver because you're listening to people around you, it's the
Speaker 1: game is fast, so it's like we're doing this, we're
Speaker 1: doing that that sounds good. You don't know where to go.
Speaker 1: And the person who says that saying that they're going
Speaker 1: to take care of you and handle it. You just
Speaker 1: want someone to handle it, so you sign up with
Speaker 1: someone and then they you know, it's what happens to
Speaker 1: the boy band. So you never made any money? Like
Speaker 1: did you ever make any money? Like what happened? And
Speaker 1: what do you do for a living?
Speaker 2: I mean I made enough money to pay Los Angeles bills.
Speaker 2: Like I was living in a shitty one bedroom apartment
Speaker 2: in Hancock Part that was twenty three one hundred dollars
Speaker 2: a month and it was like a closet, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean. So I made enough to survive. But
Speaker 2: I've never been like rich, and I'm cool with that,
Speaker 2: Like I'm totally fine. So when I was thirty two
Speaker 2: years old, I was tired of being touted as a
Speaker 2: sex symbol. And I met my now husband, who's a
Speaker 2: good old Kentucky boy gentleman, and I'm like, I want
Speaker 2: to have a normal life with a guy that doesn't
Speaker 2: treat me as a trophy, who like values me and
Speaker 2: not covets me, but uh protects me and doesn't want
Speaker 2: me to be seeking the validation of men and like
Speaker 2: sexy inser posts and stuff. I was just tired of
Speaker 2: that for me.
Speaker 1: So, so you're soul crushing, you're warning Yeah, no, yeah.
Speaker 2: When I was young, and I remember my management and
Speaker 2: everybody was like, why are you acting like you're seventy
Speaker 2: years old? You have a solid ten more years to earn,
Speaker 2: And I'm like, yeah, but I'd feel like I'm gonna
Speaker 2: be losing my soul. So I said no to a
Speaker 2: whole bunch of stuff. And I actually lost my apartment
Speaker 2: at thirty two years old, and my husband had me
Speaker 2: move in with them because like, I hit rock bottom
Speaker 2: because I was saying no to crap I didn't want
Speaker 2: to do because I just didn't want to feel exploited anymore.
Speaker 1: I get it, I yeah, but when you jump, you fly.
Speaker 1: When you decide who you are and what you don't
Speaker 1: want to do, that was me leaving Housewise, my whole
Speaker 1: life changed after I thought I was like sort of
Speaker 1: semi retiring and only gonna do this podcast at my
Speaker 1: philanthropy and the things that caught me appearances that come
Speaker 1: out of living in truth and walking out. I ended
Speaker 1: up creating this career which is awesome, crazy, but I
Speaker 1: wasn't even I didn't even try. And now I am
Speaker 1: leaning into it, but it's because of the truth of it.
Speaker 1: If I was like trying to be the last one
Speaker 1: on the house Lives noticed to take the big check,
Speaker 1: I was getting a lot of money. I would have
Speaker 1: been my soul would have been crushed. And while HSN
Speaker 1: is great, I didn't like doing it. I've never, once
Speaker 1: I've been somewhat successful, done anything that I don't feel
Speaker 1: good about doing. I don't like if I only do
Speaker 1: I feel I don't do it no matter what it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and basically I've been offered like reality TV show
Speaker 2: jobs at sure there's a paycheck, and yeah I could
Speaker 2: really use that money, but at what costs? So I
Speaker 2: just said no. And then like a few years later,
Speaker 2: I was like, what am I going to do with myself?
Speaker 2: I thought I was going to be a personal trainer,
Speaker 2: But what I found after certifying is just a bunch
Speaker 2: of dudes that wanted to train with me, which I
Speaker 2: didn't find appropriate. Like me and my husband like, that's
Speaker 2: that's asking for trouble. I wouldn't feel good if a
Speaker 2: bunch of checks just wanted to train with my husband Ja,
Speaker 2: so I was like, this can't be for me. So
Speaker 2: one day I had a myomectomy. I had a benign
Speaker 2: tumor on mac. I had that, yeah, so they had
Speaker 2: to take it out. And while I was high on percoset,
Speaker 2: I watched Edward Scissorhands and I saw Peg the Avon Lady,
Speaker 2: and high as a kite, I guess I was like,
Speaker 2: Avon's still around, and I signed up to sell it.
Speaker 2: I didn't remember, and the kitch showed up at my
Speaker 2: house and I was like, well, I have nothing else
Speaker 2: to do. And I thought I was going to make
Speaker 2: fun of it and like do reviews about how much
Speaker 2: it sucks ass, and then I ended up just loving
Speaker 2: it and I started selling it. So it's funny. People
Speaker 2: are like, what do you want to do, and I'm like,
Speaker 2: I just want to be the best save On Lady
Speaker 2: on Earth. That's what I'm going to do. And people
Speaker 2: laugh and I'm like, laugh it up, bitch, like I'm
Speaker 2: having a good time.
Speaker 1: Avon's great. I saw their recent line. They sent me
Speaker 1: their recent line of all like the vitamin C and
Speaker 1: like the packaging is amazing. This stuff is good. But
Speaker 1: I would imagine you could make. I think you're laughing
Speaker 1: because you were actually making decent money, like good money
Speaker 1: selling it.
Speaker 2: I was, I was until a few years ago when
Speaker 2: the economy just tanked into the ground. Like it's been
Speaker 2: a struggle. I'm trying to rebuild my little Avon empire.
Speaker 2: I'm not the top of Avon lady anymore. I'm getting
Speaker 2: my ass handed to me, and I think that's awesome.
Speaker 2: But wait, but did Avon reach out to you after
Speaker 2: your article. I'd imagine it wouldn't. Well no, I mean
Speaker 2: we know each other like they know me. I know them.
Speaker 2: I'm in an independent rep basically, so I'm like, I
Speaker 2: don't speak for them, Thank God for them, the poor fuckers,
Speaker 2: like if I was their mouthpiece. But yeah, I just
Speaker 2: I just want to sell Avan, dude, and live in
Speaker 2: the mountains and tell everyone in Hollywood to go fuck themselves,
Speaker 2: not you. That's how I feel.
Speaker 1: No wonder you said yes it did. Podcast. I think
Speaker 1: I still have a podcast. It's what I think you
Speaker 1: are very do. I like the way you speak, your
Speaker 1: very articulate, and like your thoughts that you're super polarizing
Speaker 1: an edgy but like make perfect sense. I think you
Speaker 1: should have like a really I think you should have
Speaker 1: like an reverend podcast.
Speaker 2: We'll see. I guess what. I like to call it
Speaker 2: decompressing from narcissistic traits, because my therapist said I wasn't
Speaker 2: a narcissist to go in there to be like, oh
Speaker 2: my god, I don't want to be a narcissist. She's like, well,
Speaker 2: then you're not, because no narcissist gives a shit about
Speaker 2: being a narcissist. But I feel like, I don't know,
Speaker 2: I don't I'm not chasing the dragon anymore of like relevancy.
Speaker 1: No, I got it. I mean as a self expression,
Speaker 1: I don't do. I'm in a bathing suit, wet from
Speaker 1: the ocean. I just sat there for you. Oh, Like
Speaker 1: I'm excited to talk to her. When I talk about nothing,
Speaker 1: it does way better than when I talk to like
Speaker 1: a big time celebrity, Like the people just want to
Speaker 1: hear people express themselves, and you seem very honest.
Speaker 2: So I feel like, well, I kind of like this,
Speaker 2: meaning like you don't have like a whole bunch of
Speaker 2: fucking like stage and bullshit. Like that's so much better
Speaker 2: I think, and life like you could do that.
Speaker 1: I think that's what I'm saying, you don't have feel
Speaker 1: like it doesn't have to be anything, you should do
Speaker 1: it yourself.
Speaker 2: And why do I feel like no one would give
Speaker 2: a fuck?
Speaker 1: Though you never know. If twenty people listen and give
Speaker 1: a fuck, maybe after this they'll give a fuck. But
Speaker 1: we'll find out. You ask my team what the people
Speaker 1: in the comments said. Guys in the comments, do you
Speaker 1: like this? And do you give a fuck? Okay, so
Speaker 1: what do you think about modeling now? Like? What is modeling?
Speaker 1: So you go out like, so I didn't understand. I thought,
Speaker 1: let's use sports ollsced as an example. Let's talk about
Speaker 1: Victoria's Secret, and let's talk about you know what modeling
Speaker 1: is now. So now you have Kendall Jenner, Gigi Hadid
Speaker 1: and people who and and Lisa Brenna's daughters, and there's
Speaker 1: a lot of it's got it's got nepo baby to it,
Speaker 1: which I call my daughter the nepo baby because you've
Speaker 1: got Lisa Brenna's daughters. And I don't believe that without
Speaker 1: that sort of platform, or Gigi and Bella and the
Speaker 1: mom's platform, I believe it has to contribute. And maybe
Speaker 1: it doesn't, but it has to. And so I'm growing
Speaker 1: up in Beverly Hills. And then also like presumably in
Speaker 1: different areas of modeling and brands hiring models, they're hiring
Speaker 1: Instagram models or social media models because they have a following.
Speaker 1: So there's like there's so many different roads in now
Speaker 1: and then now there's more inclusivity, and so at Sports
Speaker 1: Illustrated this weekend, I was asking the different women like
Speaker 1: I didn't understand the process. So, like I said to
Speaker 1: this girl at this club, I said, so, like, and
Speaker 1: how long have you been doing this? And she's like,
Speaker 1: I auditioned for five years and I finally got it.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, You're like, are you a model? Like
Speaker 1: model to begin with? She's like, no, I'm a fitness
Speaker 1: My mom is Denise Austin, and I'm a I teach
Speaker 1: videos and I do like fitness and diet like eating coach.
Speaker 1: I go oh, And I was like, oh, so you're
Speaker 1: like quote unquote a regular person that auditioned. And then
Speaker 1: there was another woman I think it's Tonday and she's
Speaker 1: a peloton and str so I didn't understand like the way.
Speaker 1: And another woman said at forty years old, she got it.
Speaker 1: So that's like a very unique way that these women
Speaker 1: are saying, like, I'm a model, So like I always
Speaker 1: say I'm a super model, I think I actually am
Speaker 1: now because if the girl who's the fitness person and whatever,
Speaker 1: I'm a model too.
Speaker 2: Now you know it's depending on the household name. So
Speaker 2: I guess you could coin yourself that Janis Dickinson just
Speaker 2: told everyone choose the world's first supermodel, and now that's
Speaker 2: how everyone knows there. So just own it, say it
Speaker 2: and make it so right.
Speaker 1: But I mean it's because when I was growing up,
Speaker 1: like you had to be. Kate Moss was disruptive because
Speaker 1: she was five seven, Like that was disruptive. Like that
Speaker 1: was like you had to be. There was a wool,
Speaker 1: you had to be over five to nine.
Speaker 2: None of this would have happened in my day. I'll
Speaker 2: tell you. I've sat in Wilhelmina Models during the open
Speaker 2: calls waiting for my you know, sheet of where I
Speaker 2: was going to do go season the day, and I
Speaker 2: would hear the agents talking about girls. If you came
Speaker 2: in there and notice filler in your face or plastic surgery, goodbye.
Speaker 2: They wanted to wow natural only. So I would say
Speaker 2: ninety percent of the people modeling today when you have
Speaker 2: to remember Christy Turlington, Naomi Campbell, Nikki Taylor, Cindy Crawford Day. Yeah,
Speaker 2: these weren't faces that were touched by science. This was
Speaker 2: natural and like Christy Turlington, Stephanie Seymour, they had little
Speaker 2: quirks that worked from like a little wonk to the
Speaker 2: eye but in the cutest way.
Speaker 1: Well Inton had his face between her tea.
Speaker 2: Yes, So it was like elitists like they wanted natural
Speaker 2: goddesses that looked like an alien. Beam them down and
Speaker 2: they would take no less.
Speaker 1: So if you get but the reason I get that
Speaker 1: is because Lebron has a god given talent. Yes he's
Speaker 1: worked on it, but he has a god given talent.
Speaker 1: So what I guess, what I'm saying is what I'm
Speaker 1: little girl, you know who is think she's overweight or
Speaker 1: not like traditionally thin or short or broken out or
Speaker 1: has a birthmark in her face, says I want to
Speaker 1: be a model? What is she saying she wants to be?
Speaker 1: What is a model? Now? Because I don't even necessarily
Speaker 1: have a problem with the fact that they were all
Speaker 1: aliens that were stunning, because that Lebron's an alien too,
Speaker 1: and there's nothing wrong with that, like, it's just what
Speaker 1: it is. A jockey. You're born shorter. You cannot be
Speaker 1: a six foot jockey in the in the in the
Speaker 1: Kentucky Derby.
Speaker 2: So I'm still yeah, Well, it's like if if in
Speaker 2: the industry becomes something anyone can do, then as you're saying,
Speaker 2: what is it anymore, like if anyone could be an
Speaker 2: NFL player, if anyone could be in the NBA, Like
Speaker 2: if I can maybe hit one basket out of a
Speaker 2: whole game because God blessed me with that one basket
Speaker 2: and then I sucked the rest of the time. Like
Speaker 2: I don't know anymore.
Speaker 1: Pat, do you tell your daughter, yes you can be
Speaker 1: a model, because what is she think she wants to be?
Speaker 2: What is famous? Just famous? I think relevant? Chasing the
Speaker 2: dragon of that fifteen minutes of glory, I think. But
Speaker 2: I mean, honestly, you know.
Speaker 1: But but as Sports Illustrated swimsu model, I can tell
Speaker 1: you now what that is and what that is now
Speaker 1: because I was there and I was shocked and you
Speaker 1: would be shocked by it. I was back. So this
Speaker 1: is my experience. I come in. I don't know. I
Speaker 1: know there's a magazine that every year I think it
Speaker 1: was in February, would have all these gorgeous women, and
Speaker 1: I remember Kathy Island was also disruptive because she was
Speaker 1: super like forty like, and they were pushing the envelope
Speaker 1: with different types like then I guess later I think
Speaker 1: it was Kate Upton and she was more curvy, and
Speaker 1: I was like, wait, wow, that wasn't what we grew
Speaker 1: up with, the model And so they started pushing the envelope.
Speaker 1: But then years later you'd see like other people and
Speaker 1: I never understood, like what I just wasn't. It just wasn't.
Speaker 1: I wasn't the audience for I don't understand it. So
Speaker 1: now I'm there and I'm backstage, and I think, like
Speaker 1: everyone's what I used to think was a model, Like
Speaker 1: there's a swimsuit model. So I think everybody's gonna be
Speaker 1: five nine, five ten and blonde and sin and look
Speaker 1: like everybody's gonna look the same. So I'm like, we, oh,
Speaker 1: we you're you're sport you're a peloton. Oh. So I'm
Speaker 1: like everyone there was so into themselves in the best
Speaker 1: possible way, like like it was contagious. It was like
Speaker 1: it was the embodiment of like I love my body,
Speaker 1: I love my ass, I love my curves, I love
Speaker 1: my lines, I love my my cell like and it
Speaker 1: was like they picked women, but who could rock something? Like?
Speaker 1: Who could rock something despite not being traditionally tall shorts,
Speaker 1: sin whatever you're supposed.
Speaker 2: I think it works for lingerie and bikinis, but I'll
Speaker 2: tell you, as someone who used to be like, oh,
Speaker 2: like someone shorter could model like a beautiful evening gown,
Speaker 2: it's harder to model things as not a five to
Speaker 2: eleven person because all of a sudden, the instead of
Speaker 2: the dress wearing the model and the dress being on display,
Speaker 2: it becomes about the model and not the dress. Now
Speaker 2: with bikinis you want to and lingerie you want to
Speaker 2: show it on bodies to you know, show women you're
Speaker 2: gonna look good. But I'll tell you that I don't
Speaker 2: think certain clothes look good on someone who's five foot
Speaker 2: five walking down a runway because I stop looking at
Speaker 2: the clothes and I start looking at the girl.
Speaker 1: That brings it back. So being a model originally was
Speaker 1: the people that were chosen to highlight the clothes because
Speaker 1: of the sizes, like the samples. So right, okay, so
Speaker 1: make sense. And these women are showcasing all of this swomen,
Speaker 1: different body taste. I loved it, and I think they
Speaker 1: did an amazing job of bringing us to twenty twenty
Speaker 1: five without it being performative and girl Boss and BS
Speaker 1: where those people go backstage were like there to help
Speaker 1: you succeed. The girls wanted me to win and do
Speaker 1: better than them, Like I never saw anything like it.
Speaker 1: It's the opposite of what you experienced. Like there are
Speaker 1: these girls like, no, you're not going to tip your
Speaker 1: hat at the end. You know why you're getting that
Speaker 1: fucking money shot. Your body is tea. You stopped there,
Speaker 1: that's your money, Like, that's what the girls who are there.
Speaker 2: I'm jealous. You guys actually looked like you had fun.
Speaker 2: We were modeling for me was not fun and you
Speaker 2: didn't get to walk down the runway having a good time.
Speaker 2: You were expected to do a certain thing.
Speaker 1: Oh and it was competitive. This was like the opposite.
Speaker 1: This was shocking more than the show itself. That was
Speaker 1: what I thought was a beautiful thing for my daughter
Speaker 1: who's fifteen now, and her body came in and she's
Speaker 1: not used to this spy and she's got a woman's spot,
Speaker 1: Like for women that like that to be like no,
Speaker 1: you own that body that you were given, like I
Speaker 1: just you like they I'm fifty four, they were. Most
Speaker 1: of the girls were in her twenties, so it was
Speaker 1: like it was very It's great that I'm talking to
Speaker 1: you right now after this experience. It's like poetic because
Speaker 1: it was the opposite of what you experienced. To be honest,
Speaker 1: would that be more opposite of what you experienced on
Speaker 1: America's next topic.
Speaker 2: I think it's awesome. And I've always been of the
Speaker 2: belief that when it comes to lingerie and bikinis that
Speaker 2: you should show a piloth of different body shapes and
Speaker 2: how these garments are gonna make them look you know
Speaker 2: what I mean?
Speaker 1: Yeah, make true too.
Speaker 2: That makes sense because these two garments are all about
Speaker 2: the body and accentuating it. So when you would put
Speaker 2: rail thin chicks in it, like I've I've always had boobs,
Speaker 2: except for now because I had an X plant. Let's
Speaker 2: not get into that. I lost a lot of my
Speaker 2: natural breast, But prior to that one, it's my real
Speaker 2: sea cup boobies. I always had boobs. So i'd see
Speaker 2: models in with no chest, I'm like, oh, I'll buy that,
Speaker 2: and I'd get it and then I'd look obscene because
Speaker 2: it was like all cleavage everywhere, and I was like,
Speaker 2: that's not how she looked. Damn it.
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about that going into swimsuit season, which
Speaker 1: is such an insecure time for people walking into a dressroom.
Speaker 1: I want to say this. I am the person I
Speaker 1: have never put a song on in my entire life,
Speaker 1: and I wear mostly one pieces now because I just do.
Speaker 1: I because I feel in my mind a construct, like
Speaker 1: I'm looking like that desperate older woman trying to cling
Speaker 1: on and wear a bikini. My best friend's like, I
Speaker 1: don't know why with your body you're not wearing bikinis.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't know. I just like the elegance
Speaker 1: of it and the saying I know my age and
Speaker 1: I know where I am, et cetera. So let's park
Speaker 1: that because I do like like that, and that is
Speaker 1: part of who I am, where I would never put
Speaker 1: on a thong. That's how I feel, right, I agree
Speaker 1: with you. So I have a certain construct about who
Speaker 1: should wear what, including myself. After this show, I thought
Speaker 1: of that there was a bathing sit they gave us
Speaker 1: that was a thong one piece. I was gonna wear it. Today,
Speaker 1: not because like I'm trying to show up. I was
Speaker 1: just going on my beach walk. I was gonna wear
Speaker 1: it because like I wasn't gonna fucking wear the thong
Speaker 1: because I did the show and I had picked my
Speaker 1: two beating suits, and I said to the editor in
Speaker 1: chief the one of the ones who was the one piece, like, go,
Speaker 1: I like that to one piece because I still know
Speaker 1: that I'm a mom and I know how old I am.
Speaker 1: Whatever I say, all this bullshit that I don't know
Speaker 1: is bullshit. Yet I'm in the dressing room and the
Speaker 1: woman who one of the women who works there, her
Speaker 1: hand comes in and I'm trying bathings to son after
Speaker 1: just for fun, we've already picked the two and I go,
Speaker 1: is this and she's like, yup, And it's a thong
Speaker 1: like but not a thong, like a literal piece of
Speaker 1: string up your house string. Yeah exactly, that's the difference.
Speaker 1: So so I go, I go okay, and I'm laughing
Speaker 1: because it's a joke. And I put it on and
Speaker 1: I start to put the top on it. I'm like,
Speaker 1: wait what And I come out and that's when they're like,
Speaker 1: we're giving this bitch a third look. Because we all
Speaker 1: I don't think any of us thought, and I was like, okay.
Speaker 1: And when I was at that show, there were evy
Speaker 1: girls rocking little bikinis, and I thought it looked great.
Speaker 1: But I would never have if I was shopping with
Speaker 1: those girls, I wouldn't have suggested that they put those
Speaker 1: on because of the constructs that we've had. And I
Speaker 1: swear after that show, I thought, like every freaking girl
Speaker 1: and every size wearing a bikini, wear whatever you want.
Speaker 1: It felt they really landed for me. Was I have
Speaker 1: a different feeling about it now.
Speaker 2: You know what's funny is one, I haven't more on
Speaker 2: a song and so long, i'd be terrified that all
Speaker 2: I would do is pick my butt publicly because I
Speaker 2: would feel something that's a functional problem.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then two, I'm so over being looked at in
Speaker 2: that way that I would just cover my ass because
Speaker 2: I don't want anyone to look at me.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: No, And I would understand if someone wasn't, I guess
Speaker 2: objectified the way I was for that long. And they're
Speaker 2: like feeling themselves now that they'd want to get a
Speaker 2: little taste of that. The thing is I ate from
Speaker 2: that table. It's not that good. I'm good, I'm over it.
Speaker 2: I could wear it.
Speaker 1: You had an identity that was based on showing your look.
Speaker 1: So that's traatic and that makes a perfect sense to me. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I just mean, as I raised a fifteen year old daughter,
Speaker 1: I'm thinking of things completely differently, and I just if
Speaker 1: I can only give her one thing, it would be
Speaker 1: like that she would be backstage with me and like
Speaker 1: walking down that runway to like see how those girls
Speaker 1: like love their body whatever it is, Like it was
Speaker 1: just so contagious and so I like that message. And
Speaker 1: I just think that there's part of this in society
Speaker 1: that's changed about let's say modeling, which you can speak
Speaker 1: to that I like this part that I just experienced
Speaker 1: because it was like it's positive for women.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I have to agree. And again, when we're
Speaker 2: purchasing something that's supposed to accentuate our bodies and like
Speaker 2: the best of ways where you're like half naked, it's
Speaker 2: nice to see all different body types showing you what
Speaker 2: this stuff will look like on your body, as opposed
Speaker 2: to this inhuman alien that's been shot down from the
Speaker 2: planet Zultron with this perfect body that you know none
Speaker 2: of us can obtain. Or we don't have Like if
Speaker 2: you have hips, you want to see somebody in something
Speaker 2: that has some hips to see what that's going to
Speaker 2: look like on you. That's just how I feel.
Speaker 1: But also to the point of the era that you
Speaker 1: came up in, of being a vapid, vacant lookoff and
Speaker 1: gazed and don't have fun and don't dance, and you're
Speaker 1: not human, You're a hangar, I would say, honestly speaking
Speaker 1: with the long hair I had and the glazel over
Speaker 1: my body and the bathing suits and a song. I
Speaker 1: just walked down that runway like in some version where
Speaker 1: I rocked it as like a model, Like just walking,
Speaker 1: what are you doing to costume trying to be a model?
Speaker 1: I was myself having fun. Like what I looked like
Speaker 1: was like accentuating it. But I was genuinely being myself
Speaker 1: and I was happy. And I think the reason it's
Speaker 1: landing for all these women with all these body types
Speaker 1: that are not part of the content, thinking it should
Speaker 1: be they walk I saw their personalities first. I think
Speaker 1: people saw me being alive and happy first, and everything
Speaker 1: else came together. I think it all it's about being happy,
Speaker 1: and you were miserable doing what you were doing, and
Speaker 1: everybody on America's Top Model seems to have been miserable,
Speaker 1: and everybody here's modeling here was funny.
Speaker 2: It's personality driven now, like influencers and all this stuff,
Speaker 2: it's all personality driven. I was told in modeling that
Speaker 2: I need to tone it the fuck down, that it's
Speaker 2: not about me or who I am, just shut the
Speaker 2: fuck up and do my job. And that's when I
Speaker 2: went into more reality TV and I went and did
Speaker 2: the Surreal Life because I was like, fine, I'll go
Speaker 2: and make money being who I am since you people
Speaker 2: think I need to shut the f up and stop
Speaker 2: being made like. I would be on sets with a
Speaker 2: bunch of models that they just wouldn't speak. It'd just
Speaker 2: be like sitting there and getting their makeup done, and
Speaker 2: I'm like, man, this is some bullshit, oh ladies, and
Speaker 2: everyone's looking at me like what. Or if a photographer
Speaker 2: was gross, I'd just call them out on it right there.
Speaker 2: I'd be like, bro, like what are you doing? And
Speaker 2: everyone's like, oh, I can't believe you said, And I'm
Speaker 2: like what is this?
Speaker 1: Like what am I in? Okay? So that's what I
Speaker 1: think the real difference is. That's what I think, and
Speaker 1: I actually think fashion should take a note out of
Speaker 1: this book. So here's what I think. Like, I do
Speaker 1: not I can afford anything I want. I don't have
Speaker 1: a stylist. Now, I think I dress fairly well. If
Speaker 1: I want to go out to something, I think I
Speaker 1: can rock something. I always create something in my mind
Speaker 1: creatively about where I'm going to be, what I want
Speaker 1: to wear, what I want to put it with, how
Speaker 1: I want to do my hair, like I come up
Speaker 1: with a little thing, you know, and not long like
Speaker 1: I'll just and I always shot my own closet. So
Speaker 1: now people who get invited to the met Gala, oh
Speaker 1: or fashion icons are people whose stylists choose their entire
Speaker 1: look head to toe. Now a little assistance is something
Speaker 1: calling a designer's one thing. But there are people who
Speaker 1: do not dress or seem anything like what they used
Speaker 1: to look like because they are now dressed as a
Speaker 1: stylist like painting. And I don't think that that's fashion.
Speaker 1: And what's interesting is that Anna Wintour herself has basically said,
Speaker 1: and so Tom Ford talked about it too, that he
Speaker 1: used to like what the mcalle used to be versus
Speaker 1: like now it's like a theatrical performance, yes, which I
Speaker 1: do get. I get that because it's expressive and Rihanna
Speaker 1: comes out and it's drama. I get that. But the
Speaker 1: people whose personal fashion style is based on a stylust
Speaker 1: that end up getting invited as a result of that,
Speaker 1: to me, that doesn't make any sense because it's not
Speaker 1: that person, you know.
Speaker 2: It's it's comic con for famous people where they all
Speaker 2: cosplay things that they're not. That's what I see. It's
Speaker 2: a bunch of cos players that are famous dressing up
Speaker 2: as characters that they are not. And I mean, I
Speaker 2: agree with you. I a mess when people would wear
Speaker 2: shit that spoke to who they were and now it's
Speaker 2: just like very hunger games.
Speaker 1: And I think fashion should make the adjustment that modeling
Speaker 1: has into it being someone's personal style and you get
Speaker 1: to see what they would do, like what the person
Speaker 1: chooses on their own, not that they go hire someone.
Speaker 1: That should be That should be illegal, like the way
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, that should be like you
Speaker 1: get you get points out for that, like Anna, because
Speaker 1: Anna Wintour doesn't dress like that. She herself wears the
Speaker 1: same couple of episodes and she's got a personal style
Speaker 1: that is hers. It's timeless, it's what her style is.
Speaker 1: And so she has said before someone should dress in
Speaker 1: a way to speaks to them, like she's been quoted.
Speaker 1: I don't know what the exact quote is or many times,
Speaker 1: but like that, it's natural to them. So it's it's contradictory.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think everyone's just turned into a stage performer.
Speaker 2: It's like Steven Tyler and money wears on stage like
Speaker 2: no one. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think.
Speaker 2: I always hated the word influencer, but I guess it's
Speaker 2: the modern day reality stars. People on social media. They
Speaker 2: are stealing the thunder from celebrities because celebrities are still
Speaker 2: faking everything and they don't know who they are inside,
Speaker 2: and then the people on social media know who they are.
Speaker 2: It's being projected out there and people are liking what
Speaker 2: they're selling and buying into it. So I think people
Speaker 2: look at stuff like the Matt Gala and you just
Speaker 2: see a sea of people that aren't very self aware
Speaker 2: or tapped into who they are or being told what
Speaker 2: to like and do, and it's not working because people
Speaker 2: like people are so tired of everything being fake. Filters
Speaker 2: this that that you know, if you put yourself out
Speaker 2: there just being you. They're like eating it up like
Speaker 2: it's manna from heaven. They're so starved for it.
Speaker 1: That's what exactly. Yeah, you should have a pot. Yeah exactly.
Speaker 1: That's exactly how I feel. And that's exactly where the
Speaker 1: universe met me where I am because that's what I've
Speaker 1: always been and I think that that's that's that's how
Speaker 1: citizen's journalism is started. That's my mainstream celebrities with the
Speaker 1: script and the gloss and the shine. It's not working
Speaker 1: because you can't pr your way out of life anymore.
Speaker 2: Unless your Tom Cruise is working for Tom.
Speaker 1: Well, he has very specific roles and he doesn't talk
Speaker 1: that much about other things besides the roles and the work.
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's exactly. Well. Wow, I could talk to
Speaker 1: you forever. I think you're amazing. So this was thank
Speaker 1: you a great.
Speaker 2: Solversation, fellow reality og.
Speaker 1: Yes, very very good to talk to you. My instincts
Speaker 1: were right about talking to you. I like you a lot.
Speaker 1: I think you're really smart and very honest. So saying
Speaker 1: I hope to speak to you again, I hope Avon
Speaker 1: calls you and gets you involved in a bigger way
Speaker 1: that's what I'm manifesting for you, and I hope you
Speaker 1: do a little like garage band podcast for you. For
Speaker 1: anyone else, I just like, just talk to a couple
Speaker 1: of people. I don't know. I just think you should.
Speaker 1: That's what I think. It's it doesn't matter what I think,
Speaker 1: but it matters what you think. So it's so nice
Speaker 1: talking to you and meeting you, and hope.
Speaker 2: You man you too. Bye Lady.