Speaker 1: Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making
Speaker 1: better decisions. I'm Mariaknakova and I'm Nate Silver. Today on
Speaker 1: the show, we have an old friend of mine whom
Speaker 1: I've known for over a decade, Nick Thompson. So he
Speaker 1: is currently joining us from the New York City offices
Speaker 1: of the Atlantic where he is the CEO. So if
Speaker 1: you hear any background noise, you know this is soho,
Speaker 1: this is New York. There's stuff going on, and Nick
Speaker 1: has a lot of things going on. He is also
Speaker 1: the editor in chief, former editor in chief of a
Speaker 1: Wired and wrote a book called The Hawk and the
Speaker 1: Dove about the Cold War era. It's absolutely phenomenal. You
Speaker 1: should show out. But to me, he will always be
Speaker 1: my editor at The New Yorker, which is how I
Speaker 1: first met Nick. And he wasn't just my editor, he
Speaker 1: actually ran The New Yorker's website. And now we have
Speaker 1: him on because he has a new book coming out,
Speaker 1: I think the most personal book he's ever written, called
Speaker 1: The Running Ground. I apologize I only have a galley,
Speaker 1: but here's the galley. Here's how it looks, and it's
Speaker 1: about running, it's about his dad, it's a reflection on life,
Speaker 1: so many different things. Nick, Welcome to Risky Business. Nate
Speaker 1: and I are so happy to have you here.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Maria.
Speaker 3: I was actually just trying to figure out when exactly
Speaker 3: we met by looking at my old emails, but unfortunately
Speaker 3: it appears this other eight hundred of them that I've
Speaker 3: just gone through and now we're at nine hundred.
Speaker 1: This is this is what editing is like for people
Speaker 1: who want to behind the scenes look at the editing life.
Speaker 1: Nick and I have probably over one thousand emails between
Speaker 1: the two of us over the years.
Speaker 2: All right, here we got wait, we got it.
Speaker 3: Your new science and technology website, Dear Nick, Emilia Lester
Speaker 3: told me you're looking to hire someone to head up
Speaker 3: a new science acknowledge second for the New Yorker's website
Speaker 3: September twenty eight, twenty twelve. So we are looking at
Speaker 3: thirteen years and almost a month.
Speaker 1: Wow, that is incredible. Well, it's so good to be
Speaker 1: reunited here. And I've forgot the most important thing of
Speaker 1: your intro. Since your book is about running, you are
Speaker 1: the holder of the American record for the fifty k
Speaker 1: Ultra marathon from men forty to forty five, which is
Speaker 1: pretty fucking amazing, if I may say so. So I
Speaker 1: actually want to start not with running, but with your dad.
Speaker 1: Your relationship with your dad is a major part of
Speaker 1: the book, and i'd love to hear you talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about that. You have your dad, Scott Thompson,
Speaker 1: who was a runner and who's the one who actually
Speaker 1: got you introduced to running. And there's this beautiful, you know,
Speaker 1: very poignant moment of little Nick waiting at the marathon
Speaker 1: lives to give his dad some new shoes and orange juice, right,
Speaker 1: orange juice, Yeah, orange juice.
Speaker 3: Like orange is kind of on the way out, but
Speaker 3: like it was super hot for marathoners and I take
Speaker 3: it too.
Speaker 1: So so yeah, i'd love to hear you kind of
Speaker 1: talk about that intersection and that overlap and you're dad.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So my dad's an amazing guy. And part of the
Speaker 3: motivation for the book was thinking through his effect on me,
Speaker 3: thinking through his effect on running, thinking about the way
Speaker 3: running helped us communicate, and then his life story, which
Speaker 3: is interesting. All right, So my dad grows up in Oklahoma,
Speaker 3: He's got kind of a complicated family, doesn't want to
Speaker 3: be there, partly because of his overbearing Golden gloves boxing
Speaker 3: champion father.
Speaker 2: You know, my dad busts out, like finds.
Speaker 3: The school called andover replies, gets a scholarship, like rides
Speaker 3: horseback delivery newspaper and pays for it.
Speaker 2: Right, Great America. That's crazy, by the way, it's pretty cool, right,
Speaker 2: you know, goes to Endover.
Speaker 3: He's like, the kid doesn't fit in, hes got all
Speaker 3: the wrong clothes whatever makes it work. Goes to Stanford
Speaker 3: on a scholarship, crushes it, meets John F. Kennedy says,
Speaker 3: this kid's we president. Goes off it's a Rhodes scholarship.
Speaker 3: Goes to Oxford, you know, the friends, all the important
Speaker 3: people in England. Comes back, marries my mother, who comes
Speaker 3: from a prominent political family. Guy's on fire, right, he's
Speaker 3: like making plan to run for the Senate. You know,
Speaker 3: he's just crushing it. And then like starts to go wrong,
Speaker 3: like maybe he's not quite as good as everybody thinks,
Speaker 3: Like maybe he's drinking too much alcohol. And then he's
Speaker 3: like grappling with this secret that he's realized he's gay, right,
Speaker 3: and he is sort of new he was gay when
Speaker 3: he was young, but you know he was closeted. This
Speaker 3: is nineteen seventies America, it's a pretty hard time to
Speaker 3: come out, or nineteen sixties America. And so in nineteen
Speaker 3: eighty two, when I'm seven years old, he's like made
Speaker 3: the realization to himself that he's gay.
Speaker 2: He leaves, he moves to.
Speaker 3: Washington, and he's like, now he's trying to like make
Speaker 3: up for lost time, right, And so he's in these
Speaker 3: endless relationships increasingly inappropriate.
Speaker 2: He's diagnosed as being HIV positive.
Speaker 3: This is during the plague. Turns out it's a false diagnosis,
Speaker 3: and he has this like very intense trajectory that you know,
Speaker 3: in some ways the parts that are totally admirable, it is,
Speaker 3: it's possible, depending on how you count, that he is
Speaker 3: the first openly gay presidential appointee in American history. Every
Speaker 3: why works in the United States Information Agency since Shovered by Dog.
Speaker 3: You know, he's a very rare gay Republican in the
Speaker 3: Reagan administration. You know, he is like kind of he
Speaker 3: like plays a kind of important role in the like
Speaker 3: late eighties, early nineties, like you know, people should come
Speaker 3: out so that everybody knows that gay people are everywhere.
Speaker 3: But then he's like dating kind of like late teenage
Speaker 3: guys he's maybe met on the Internet or maybe paid
Speaker 3: for in DuPont circle, and he's like dating like hundreds
Speaker 3: of people a year, and he's like bringing the like
Speaker 3: wrong people to like parties, meeting fulm of people. And
Speaker 3: then he moves to Asia, maybe for academic research and
Speaker 3: maybe not. And by the end of his life he's
Speaker 3: running like a pseudo brothel in Bali. He's bankrupt, he's
Speaker 3: a tax fugitive, and it's just chaos. Right, So that's
Speaker 3: my dad, you know, And like when you meet me,
Speaker 3: you're like, what is your dad?
Speaker 1: Do?
Speaker 3: You don't really expect that to be the answer. I
Speaker 3: used to like to catch people up guard, like what
Speaker 3: are your parents doing? It's like my mom's an artistory
Speaker 3: and a baps and my dad runs a brothel in
Speaker 3: Bali and they're like what.
Speaker 2: Away?
Speaker 3: So like his story and he creates endless chaos in
Speaker 3: my life, in my sister's lives. But he and I
Speaker 3: have this like wonderful loving relationship the whole time through
Speaker 3: and like, you know, he taught me to run. I
Speaker 3: watch her run this marathon. He like cheers me on
Speaker 3: as I become a good runner. We run together when
Speaker 3: we're together, and so running is like part of the
Speaker 3: spine of our relationship, you know, up until the end.
Speaker 2: And then it's it doesn't.
Speaker 3: Escape my attention that, you know, when he dies in
Speaker 3: twenty seventeen, just when I started as the editor Wired,
Speaker 3: it is like soon after that that I become a
Speaker 3: much better runner. And there's something about process in his
Speaker 3: death that also plays a role in my evolution from
Speaker 3: like pretty good runner to very good runner.
Speaker 4: Does your need for it? Well, now I'm psychoanalyzing you
Speaker 4: go for it? Nate, go for it?
Speaker 3: Nate?
Speaker 4: Does your need for like or I don't know, I'm
Speaker 4: presuming in need? Right? Does the discipline that you apply
Speaker 4: in your running and maybe in other parts of your life? Right?
Speaker 4: I mean, is that out of a concern that if
Speaker 4: you aren't disciplined then things could spiral out of control
Speaker 4: like it did for your dad.
Speaker 2: That's definitely part of it.
Speaker 3: I mean that that is a very conscious My sister
Speaker 3: and I once took this. We were driving together and we
Speaker 3: were like, we're in this U haul, like moving stuff
Speaker 3: from his house from one place to another, and we
Speaker 3: had this conversation where like we both admitted to the
Speaker 3: other that our biggest fear in life was that like
Speaker 3: something about our genetic inheritance and having him as a
Speaker 3: father faded us to become just like crazy chaos agents
Speaker 3: and unlike until like I do have very much have
Speaker 3: a sense that if I lose discipline, I faced the
Speaker 3: risk of I mean, I'm very like him, Like I
Speaker 3: kind of look like him, I kind of act like him, right.
Speaker 3: I I had this crazy experience. It was like two
Speaker 3: years ago. I'm in this restaurant in San Francisco, and
Speaker 3: I'm with one of my dad's old friends. He's like
Speaker 3: roommate from college, and another guy from the Stanford class
Speaker 3: in nineteen sixty three walks in and so my dining
Speaker 3: my dining friend goes up to the other guy and goes, Hey,
Speaker 3: this kid here I'm having lunch with is the son
Speaker 3: of one of your old classmates. Who do you think
Speaker 3: it is? And he looks at me and goes, oh,
Speaker 3: that's Scottie Thompson's son, right, And you know, knowing that
Speaker 3: I like fifty percent of my DNA is his. I
Speaker 3: was raised by him, influenced by him, right, Like he
Speaker 3: like embedded his ambitions into me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, obviously I'm like terrified of going off the rails.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you it is. It was very interesting
Speaker 1: to me that, you know, you did follow in your
Speaker 1: dad's pustups, even though when you were a kid like
Speaker 1: that couldn't have been easy. But then you went to andover,
Speaker 1: you went to Stanford right like you you did all
Speaker 1: of that that you applied for the roads you did
Speaker 1: not get it, but that you got everything else. So
Speaker 1: so I think I think you're I think you're okay, you.
Speaker 3: Got and then even that when I didn't, I still
Speaker 3: like I did what he did without even really knowing,
Speaker 3: like when he had done he had gotten the roads,
Speaker 3: and like Ghandak Ghana, what did I do after I
Speaker 3: graduated from college? Like I didn't really intend this. I
Speaker 3: ended up in Ghana like he got arrested in Ghana.
Speaker 3: I got kidnapped in Morocco right like we had like
Speaker 3: we had like all these similarities.
Speaker 2: I was like trying to be like the guy.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: It was very interesting to me. And I think part
Speaker 1: of why you might be like it could be me
Speaker 1: right there, but for the grace of God go I
Speaker 1: is that your dad was brilliant, right, a remarkably smart man.
Speaker 1: He and you had his diaries that you went through,
Speaker 1: and the awareness of what alcoholism did to his father
Speaker 1: should have stopped it, and he intellectually realized that he
Speaker 1: should have stopped drinking, and he didn't, and he couldn't,
Speaker 1: And the fact that he was so smart and also
Speaker 1: disciplined in a lot of ways and conceptually and intellectually
Speaker 1: grasped all of this and yet on a purely kind
Speaker 1: of emotional, day to day life basis, couldn't couldn't follow through.
Speaker 1: I think if that were my dad, that would terrify me.
Speaker 3: I definitely worry that at some point alcoholism will come
Speaker 3: for me. And I'm very you know, very careful and
Speaker 3: very disciplined about that. I'm you know, now almost never drink, so,
Speaker 3: you know, dealing with the burdens and having observed my
Speaker 3: father so carefully and having seen these things come to him,
Speaker 3: And then what you say about the diaries is so
Speaker 3: interesting because he's so perceptive and smart and there are
Speaker 3: things he notices.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: My sister and I often joke like she'll walk into
Speaker 3: a room, right and she'll like, within like ten minutes
Speaker 3: like be able to like sort of like see into
Speaker 3: everybody's soul and figure everything out. But she also feelsing
Speaker 3: so intensely, and I'm like sort of very like resilient,
Speaker 3: and like more stuff can like hit me. And when
Speaker 3: I'm like two and she's three, he writes in his
Speaker 3: diary like everything would be better if we could get
Speaker 3: Nikki to feel a little more and phil Us to
Speaker 3: feel a little less. Right, like these insights into like
Speaker 3: who become He writes this letter to me when I'm
Speaker 3: twenty one that I didn't reread until I was like
Speaker 3: forty nine, as like holy cow, like he saw through
Speaker 3: my whole twenties and like all the sort of the
Speaker 3: problems that befell me in my twenties. The guy was
Speaker 3: utterly brilliant and I wish I had as much of
Speaker 3: that as he had. And then I want the alcoholism
Speaker 3: and the you know, the tax evasion, whatever.
Speaker 2: Change those were to not not ever hit me.
Speaker 1: And it's always a mixed bag, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, parents, Jondren, always a mixed bag. True.
Speaker 1: And we'll be back right after this. I want to
Speaker 1: hear the origin story, as you know I always do
Speaker 1: about this book. How did you come to wanting to
Speaker 1: write about something so personal, which is not the type
Speaker 1: of writing you normally do? It is certainly not the
Speaker 1: kind of book that your last book was, even though
Speaker 1: you did have a personal connection to it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So I had this very strange thing happen in my forties.
Speaker 3: So I was a very I was a pretty good
Speaker 3: runner in my twenties and thirties, and when I was
Speaker 3: thirty years old, I ran a two forty three marathon,
Speaker 3: which is excellent. I got sick, I got thyroid cancer.
Speaker 3: It took me two years. I came back, I ran
Speaker 3: two forty three again. And then for the next twelve
Speaker 3: or thirteen years, I ran almost exactly the same time
Speaker 3: I would run Fall Marathon. I'd run two forty three,
Speaker 3: which is a very good time. It puts you, like,
Speaker 3: you know, in.
Speaker 2: The local elite.
Speaker 3: And then in my mid forties I went much faster
Speaker 3: and I ran a two twenty nine, which suddenly put
Speaker 3: me in a whole new category. And so it was interesting,
Speaker 3: is I was going through this thought process of how
Speaker 3: did I get so much faster at a time where
Speaker 3: you're supposed to get slower, and like, as my body
Speaker 3: is clearly decaying, how did I make this improvement? Because
Speaker 3: it's not like I didn't train hard in my thirties right.
Speaker 3: It's not like I didn't focus, it's not like I
Speaker 3: didn't read books. It's not like I didn't eat kale right,
Speaker 3: Like I worked really hard, I just didn't go as fast.
Speaker 3: And then one day I was running across the Brooklyn
Speaker 3: Bridge and I had this like mental breakthrough. It's very
Speaker 3: rare to have, like a I feel like U see
Speaker 3: ideas common like waves and parts. But it was like
Speaker 3: literally hit me like a thunderbolt. I was like, oh
Speaker 3: my god. I didn't go faster because I didn't realize
Speaker 3: that I could be faster than I had been before
Speaker 3: I got sick, like I was psychologically blocked from like
Speaker 3: going faster than two forty three because that's how fast
Speaker 3: I had run before I got sick. And then that
Speaker 3: realization made me realize, well, what makes you go fast
Speaker 3: it makes you go slow is buried really deep inside
Speaker 3: of you, and that that is a profound revelation for
Speaker 3: all kinds of things in life. And so that that
Speaker 3: led me to think about my thought role that he
Speaker 3: played and maybe want to investigate these other runners. But
Speaker 3: it was this realization that the speed at which one
Speaker 3: can propel oneself through space is highly dependent on these
Speaker 3: very deep buried psychological factors made me think there's a book.
Speaker 1: Here, so I have. You know, we love data here
Speaker 1: on risky business and data when you're using when you're
Speaker 1: making decisions, and that's kind of what you've been talking about.
Speaker 1: But something that I found really interesting in your book
Speaker 1: is that some of the decisions you make seem to
Speaker 1: be very subjective in a certain way. And what I'm
Speaker 1: talking about specifically, and this is something that you know,
Speaker 1: as I think about risk and is something that would
Speaker 1: be that was kind of scary for me, which is
Speaker 1: the way that you describe trying to subjectively figure out
Speaker 1: health wise like am I going to am I about
Speaker 1: to hurt myself?
Speaker 4: Right or not?
Speaker 1: Like should I do I want to push through? Or
Speaker 1: am I about to like cause irreparable damage to you know,
Speaker 1: one of my muscles, one of my you know, bones,
Speaker 1: Like am I going to be hypothermic? Like what's going
Speaker 1: to happen to me? How do you actually calculate? Because
Speaker 1: to me, like the risk of mortgaging your health and
Speaker 1: like doing something that's really really scary for your body
Speaker 1: feels very daunting and I would I would always err
Speaker 1: on the side of you know what if you think
Speaker 1: you're about to be hurt. Stop and you start the book,
Speaker 1: you know, with your kind of your cancer diagnosis and
Speaker 1: kind of this really really monumental I think moment in
Speaker 1: your life where you thought you were going to die
Speaker 1: and you ended up surviving. So in my mind, if
Speaker 1: that weren't me, I'd be like wow, Like health is
Speaker 1: something that's crucially important. And yet right you're you're able
Speaker 1: to kind of push yourself through these limits. And it's
Speaker 1: not like you have a doctor monitoring you by your
Speaker 1: side being like Okay, Nick, You're okay to keep going.
Speaker 1: You have to trust yourself and be like Okay, I'm
Speaker 1: okay to keep going versus no, I need to stop.
Speaker 1: How how does that work? How does that risk calculus
Speaker 1: play out in your mind? And then also can we
Speaker 1: like go broader than running then how does that kind
Speaker 1: of thinking play out in your day.
Speaker 4: To day life?
Speaker 2: Super interesting.
Speaker 3: So I do have this belief that you want like
Speaker 3: there's a like a line, right, and it's a very
Speaker 3: hard line to find, but you go up as close
Speaker 3: to the line as you can get, and you're making
Speaker 3: yourself stronger and then you get on the other side
Speaker 3: and you're making yourself weaker. Right.
Speaker 2: And it's a little bit like how hard should you work?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 2: At like what point does hard work become negative? Right?
Speaker 3: Is what time does Maria staying up so late you know,
Speaker 3: I don't know preparing for this poker tournament, that she'll
Speaker 3: perform less well, right, or like the amount of there's
Speaker 3: a point where extra effort has negative returns, right, And
Speaker 3: the same is true and running where if you because
Speaker 3: you're basically breaking your body rebuilding your body, and your
Speaker 3: body rebuilds a little bit stronger, and as you do that,
Speaker 3: you're able to take on more load, right, And so
Speaker 3: you run the five k a little bit faster. It
Speaker 3: makes you a little bit stronger. You train thirty miles
Speaker 3: not twenty seven miles. The next week, it makes you
Speaker 3: a little stronger and more capable of going thirty three.
Speaker 3: And you're just trying to like get further and further
Speaker 3: and further, and like, as you increase the exertion, you
Speaker 3: increase the exertion that you can do the next time.
Speaker 2: And so then the question is when do you like crossover?
Speaker 2: And so.
Speaker 3: That comes up in training right where you start to
Speaker 3: feel right, you start to like, right now, I have
Speaker 3: like a little something feels a little weird in the
Speaker 3: top of my right knee. Right. I know it's like
Speaker 3: coming inflammation, But I have the New York City marathons.
Speaker 3: You're taking this trade off. It's not soreness, it's injury.
Speaker 3: And how do I balance that with my training? And
Speaker 3: how do you balance that with your goals? And a
Speaker 3: lot of a lot of what you're trying to do
Speaker 3: when you train this hard is cultivate awareness about what
Speaker 3: is your body getting stronger, what is good fatigue, and
Speaker 3: what is like actual pre injury fatigue. And so that's
Speaker 3: one element of it, And that's like the only way
Speaker 3: you can really tell is cultivating body wardness. That's parably
Speaker 3: why I don't listen to music when I rung right,
Speaker 3: because you listen to music and you lose a little
Speaker 3: bit of that awareness and a little bit of that
Speaker 3: memory and a little bit of that knowledge. It gets
Speaker 3: harder in a race, right, because now you're out and
Speaker 3: you're out in the mountains and something's wrong, right, and
Speaker 3: so then you have a different calculus. And so this
Speaker 3: was the hardest time that's ever happened to me. Was
Speaker 3: the first time I read my first fifty miler and
Speaker 3: I go out there and I'm like all psyched to optimize.
Speaker 3: I've done my whole thing, I've made my split charts,
Speaker 3: everything's set. And then there's snows, right, and I brought
Speaker 3: these like shoes that are like great for running on
Speaker 3: like nice, you know, rocky roads, but are terrible for snow.
Speaker 2: Mile thirty two, I slip.
Speaker 3: I'm trying to like eat it goo like now something
Speaker 3: is wrong, right, And so the next five miles I'm
Speaker 3: trying to calculate am I injured or am I just tired?
Speaker 3: And it's so hard to tell. And you're cold, you're
Speaker 3: like near hypothermic. At that point, I remember pulling off
Speaker 3: into this tent and they're giving me like hot soup,
Speaker 3: and I'm trying to figure out do I keep forward
Speaker 3: do I drop out?
Speaker 2: I ended up dropping out, And you know, after I
Speaker 2: dropped out, I was like that, what a whimp?
Speaker 3: Like a terrible decision, right like, and then you know,
Speaker 3: I tried to run a few days after I got back,
Speaker 3: I was like, God, I'm going to like make up
Speaker 3: for this, and I was like, oh, something's wrong. I
Speaker 3: went to a doctor like yeah, you're like inches from
Speaker 3: ripping your achilles, so.
Speaker 2: It's probably the right decision. It's hard stuff.
Speaker 4: You don't listen to music? Do you listen to podcasts?
Speaker 4: Or I love it?
Speaker 1: Do you listen to risky Business while you're running? It?
Speaker 4: So I do.
Speaker 3: When I'm so most of my miles, I'm like running
Speaker 3: to work, right, I run to the office, I run
Speaker 3: home from the office, and I'm running like nine minutes
Speaker 3: a mile, right, Like I'm just jogging down Canal Street, right,
Speaker 3: And I'm not like, yeah, then I listened to risky Business.
Speaker 3: I'm listening all kinds of podcasts. I'm listening to audiobooks.
Speaker 3: It's great, it's super efficient. But if I'm out and
Speaker 3: i'm training, so my basically like I'm training three days
Speaker 3: or four days a week, and I'm just like hobby
Speaker 3: jagging three or four days a week, right, And when
Speaker 3: I'm a hobby jagging, I'm listening to podcasts or whatever.
Speaker 2: When I'm like training, I'm not. That makes sense?
Speaker 1: That makes sense?
Speaker 4: Is it safe to assume that, like, once you get
Speaker 4: to a certain level of performance or aspiration of performance
Speaker 4: for running, then ninety eight percent of your life has
Speaker 4: to be not oriented toward that. But like you know, obviously, diet, sleep, booze,
Speaker 4: drugs other health decisions that you're making. Right, it starts
Speaker 4: to become fairly comprehensive as far as like daytay decisions
Speaker 4: you're making. Is that is that fair or is there
Speaker 4: like a little bit more slack than one might assume?
Speaker 4: And is that a good thing or a bad thing?
Speaker 2: I think to really really reach your utter potential?
Speaker 3: Yes, but I've never done that, like I've gone I've never.
Speaker 2: Right, I'm training for the New York Marathon.
Speaker 3: It's the Age Group World Championships, right, like I really
Speaker 3: want to do well. I just like went to Arizona
Speaker 3: to go run in the Grand Cannon, which is stupid
Speaker 3: if you're training for a marathon in three weeks and
Speaker 3: then immediately flew to Italy to go like moderate an
Speaker 3: event because that's cool too, right, And like you would
Speaker 3: never do that if you were like really optimizing.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 3: They optimized a lot, right, but not not ninety nine percent.
Speaker 1: So this is actually a really interesting point in your book.
Speaker 1: So you have there are two coaches that kind of
Speaker 1: you write about. I mean, you write about more coaches.
Speaker 1: But so you went to Stanford to run originally, I
Speaker 1: mean obviously for academics, but also it was a kind
Speaker 1: of legendary running team that you that you were a
Speaker 1: part of, and that didn't go quite according to plan.
Speaker 1: But then I did that you ended up and you
Speaker 1: can tell the story. That's why I'm not a I'm
Speaker 1: not fully I'm not fully it right now. And then
Speaker 1: you ended up doing this project for Nike where you
Speaker 1: got hooked up with a coach who changed your life
Speaker 1: and changed your running trajectory. And they both saw you
Speaker 1: very differently and had a very different approach to how
Speaker 1: running should be optimized for you personally. And I think
Speaker 1: that's something that we don't talk about enough when we
Speaker 1: talk about decision making, right, that there's no one size
Speaker 1: fits all, and that a lot of times you do
Speaker 1: have to look at the individual variables the individual to
Speaker 1: make the best decision possible. It's not like a universal
Speaker 1: best decision, right, It's how do you train this person?
Speaker 1: So I'd love for you to talk about this contrast.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great insight. So I go to Stanford
Speaker 3: and I ron this guy Vinla Nana is like the
Speaker 3: most successful best coaching American track history, or like in
Speaker 3: the conversation, and I'm not the best recruit. I'm tenth recruit,
Speaker 3: you know, and I'm like, I never even raised for
Speaker 3: the team, and I'm off the team by the beginning
Speaker 3: of my sophomore year. And I interviewed him as part
Speaker 3: of the search for this book, and one of the
Speaker 3: things he said to me was like, yeah, I needed
Speaker 3: kids who were utterly devoted and like they weren't concerned
Speaker 3: about academic excellence and like really just wanted to be runners.
Speaker 3: And I like, when I was talking, I was like, okay, yeah,
Speaker 3: and I never I didn't want that, right, Like I
Speaker 3: liked running, I liked being good, but it was never
Speaker 3: the most important thing in my life even then, you know,
Speaker 3: I loved all these other things. And so I was
Speaker 3: I like, I couldn't have succeeded, like in order for
Speaker 3: him to maybe I had the Maybe I have the
Speaker 3: innate talent to be a much better runner. And if
Speaker 3: anybody in the world could have found it might have
Speaker 3: been Lenana. The guy's a genius. And but I realized
Speaker 3: talking to him, like I never could have committed enough
Speaker 3: for him to commit to me to find that talent.
Speaker 3: So then when I'm in my forties, get coached by
Speaker 3: this guy, Steve Finley, who interestingly had like studied under Lenana,
Speaker 3: and you know, Finley like looks at my own logs
Speaker 3: and like talks to me and realizes that I could
Speaker 3: be doing much more and training much harder, and like
Speaker 3: there are ways to unlock you know, much more speed.
Speaker 3: But he also realizes that, like I don't care about
Speaker 3: it that much. Like I love being fast, I care
Speaker 3: about it a ton, I mean wrote a whole book
Speaker 3: about it. Right, clear care a lot about running, but
Speaker 3: I care about my job much more. I care about
Speaker 3: my kids much more. And so he made me a schedule,
Speaker 3: Like you know, these other coaches are like, well, Nick
Speaker 3: should also do all this like core exercise and like
Speaker 3: really needs to, like you work on his shoulder mobility.
Speaker 3: And Steve was like, no, it doesn't right, And you know,
Speaker 3: he makes the schedule and it would be like Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays,
Speaker 3: Sundays would be like run option right, do whatever the
Speaker 3: hell you want right. He would make workouts for that
Speaker 3: were like optimized run a travel, like I wouldn't have
Speaker 3: to find a track. Like he basically set it up
Speaker 3: to be like what is the maximum amount that we
Speaker 3: can get him to improve in the minimum amount of
Speaker 3: time because there's a cap and if if you force
Speaker 3: Nick to do more, he'll just stop because he cares
Speaker 3: what this other stuff more. And so that was like
Speaker 3: I needed that kind of a coach to bring about
Speaker 3: that success. And it's a good lesson for coaching anything.
Speaker 3: Like you're coaching someone in poker, right, you have to
Speaker 3: like identify how much time is available, how much mental
Speaker 3: energy is available, and then structure it for that. But
Speaker 3: if I was like Maria, you know, like I need
Speaker 3: you to write four story is a week, right, and
Speaker 3: you would have been like you could have done it
Speaker 3: or but you also would have been like, no, Nick,
Speaker 3: like I have these other things I'm doing. I can
Speaker 3: write two stories a week. You know, you have to
Speaker 3: like figure out how like if you're a writer editor
Speaker 3: relationship is similar to the runner coach.
Speaker 4: Yeah, writing, writing and running in poker all have these
Speaker 4: weird parallels, right, including I mean I'm running as well
Speaker 4: as the other two obviously, but they seem to abtract
Speaker 4: a certain type of obsessive I mean that in a
Speaker 4: good way, who are walking a tight rope between like
Speaker 4: achievement and discipline and have a long term plan. But
Speaker 4: I don't know, there's something you know when I'm writing
Speaker 4: something then like I almost feel like running is like
Speaker 4: part of that work, right, I need time to physically
Speaker 4: move in like processed thoughts.
Speaker 3: I do think there are actually a surprising number of
Speaker 3: writers who are also like George carl Ohates, like very
Speaker 3: focused runner. When I was at the New Yorker, like
Speaker 3: obviously Peter Hesler, who wrote for work round these past marathons,
Speaker 3: I was like George Packer ran a two forty six marathon,
Speaker 3: and go Steen, the head of Copy ran like a
Speaker 3: three ten marathon eighties. Like all of these like New
Speaker 3: York icons had actually at some point been like hardcore runners.
Speaker 1: So how do you okay? You're one of the most
Speaker 1: kind of ridiculously driven people I've ever met, and I
Speaker 1: still remember. I think the first time I met you,
Speaker 1: came to your office, you had your running clothes because
Speaker 1: you'd run to work. I didn't realize yet that you
Speaker 1: ran to work every single day at that point. You
Speaker 1: have already three little kids, or at that point I
Speaker 1: think you had fewer I had.
Speaker 2: I had three kids. I had two kids, but the
Speaker 2: third one was coming.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they multiplied. While I knew you, and you know
Speaker 1: you you worked with me on a series about sleep
Speaker 1: a long time ago and about how important it is.
Speaker 1: And yet you know I'm reading here like you wake
Speaker 1: up at who knows what time so that you can
Speaker 1: get all of these different elements of your life in,
Speaker 1: so that you can get these runs in, you can
Speaker 1: get these this training in during during the week. So
Speaker 1: speaking of like that give and take of when does
Speaker 1: this effort, you know, become counterproductive? How how do you
Speaker 1: think about all of that and how do you how
Speaker 1: do you think about that balance? And it also seems
Speaker 1: like running actually kind of helps you get that balance,
Speaker 1: which is which is very which is a funny thing
Speaker 1: to say, given how much of your time you devote
Speaker 1: to it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you get like you get a little bit like
Speaker 3: for every hour you put into running, you get like
Speaker 3: five minutes back, right, because it helps you fall asleep
Speaker 3: and helps relax your mind. You know that that series,
Speaker 3: it was a three part series. Actually it was pretty
Speaker 3: influential because when you edit a story, you know, you
Speaker 3: read the sources, you go through stuff. I started sleeping
Speaker 3: more after working with you on that. Really, I mean,
Speaker 3: let me just say that, I actually think people are like,
Speaker 3: how do you, like, how do you spend so much
Speaker 3: time running and so much time in your job. There's
Speaker 3: so many parallels, Like running really hard makes you better
Speaker 3: at focusing during hard zoom meetings. Right. I would imagine
Speaker 3: that concentrating during poker makes you a better interviewer because
Speaker 3: you are better at concentrating, like you are learning like
Speaker 3: similar skills. And if your hobbies and passions can reinforce
Speaker 3: your job, like you're in a good spot.
Speaker 4: I mean, just some of the Marshmallow affects stuff too.
Speaker 4: Maria can tell us whether the Marshallow study is accurate
Speaker 4: or not. Right, But just like the routine practice of
Speaker 4: having discipline, right, I mean, it's one of the most
Speaker 4: basic things that most people are are too willing to
Speaker 4: sacrifice the long term for the short term in terms
Speaker 4: of happiness, right. And that can include like the long
Speaker 4: term patience, Like you know, every article that I write
Speaker 4: for my newsletter takes somewhere between four hours and like
Speaker 4: four days, right, And like having the patience to say
Speaker 4: I'm going to focus on this and not need a
Speaker 4: quick hit when there's so many impulses like Twitter, for example,
Speaker 4: and television, and I'm dating myself with television already, right,
Speaker 4: But like everything else is such instant gratification where this
Speaker 4: seems like this seems like a very different course to
Speaker 4: choose in life.
Speaker 3: Totally, And I feel like one of the things I
Speaker 3: definitely believe is that discipline is chumutal it. Right, if
Speaker 3: you make your bed, like you do something disciplined and
Speaker 3: correct first thing in the morning, that makes it easier
Speaker 3: to do the next thing discipline and correct ad nauseum. Right,
Speaker 3: And sometimes you need to let your mind relax and
Speaker 3: take a break. But like, discipline builds discipline, and so
Speaker 3: I actually.
Speaker 2: Think that.
Speaker 3: Running hard, you know, makes it easier to focus and
Speaker 3: do discipline things through the rest of your day in
Speaker 3: your life.
Speaker 4: Pam, We'll be right back after this break. Can ask
Speaker 4: a very basic, I guess running question, right, of course, please,
Speaker 4: how do you pace yourself? Right? Because like I will
Speaker 4: run you know, five k's not ultra marathons, God forbid, right,
Speaker 4: and like, you know, I'm not having sure what my
Speaker 4: goal is necessarily, but it's it's hard to like avoid
Speaker 4: going out too fast or too slow. And when you're
Speaker 4: planning twenty six point two miles or what's it's like
Speaker 4: thirty one miles, right, ultra marathon? How do you pace yourself?
Speaker 4: And decide like a what point place do I think
Speaker 4: I should be running and be how has my body
Speaker 4: like achieved that pace?
Speaker 2: That's so good? All right, So short answer, a long answer, Nate.
Speaker 4: We have a whole hour long, long answered, Nick. All right.
Speaker 3: So as you get older, you know, one of the
Speaker 3: advantages of getting older is you have all this data
Speaker 3: on yourself, right, And so you know how you've run
Speaker 3: in previous races. You know all the workouts you did
Speaker 3: before those races, and you know how those workouts you know,
Speaker 3: project to future races or like I do. And so
Speaker 3: before I begin a marathon, I have a general sense
Speaker 3: of how fit I am compared to previous marathons.
Speaker 2: So then I make a goal.
Speaker 3: So this would be a marathon of fifty k or
Speaker 3: a fifty miler, and I project out either what I
Speaker 3: think i'm cap or I project out what is my goal,
Speaker 3: like I want to break a record, I want to
Speaker 3: set a world leading time, whatever it is.
Speaker 2: And then I work backwards and I make a plan
Speaker 2: for the race. And so.
Speaker 3: The last race I ran and really cared about was
Speaker 3: the Lake Warmog fifty miler, right, and I wanted to
Speaker 3: run the American record for my age group, which meant running.
Speaker 2: Basically six forties or six thirty eights per mile for
Speaker 2: fifty miles.
Speaker 3: And so I then kind of projected, can I possibly
Speaker 3: do this based on my workouts, based on what I've
Speaker 3: done before? Okay, made a plant, and so I made
Speaker 3: a plan for every mile, like what I would run,
Speaker 3: what I would plan to run. So then while I'm running,
Speaker 3: I'm basically I'm measuring three things. I'm measuring my splits.
Speaker 3: So am I running six thirty eight pace? Or if
Speaker 3: my plan is to start at six forty five and
Speaker 3: drop to six thirty two? Am I running the pace
Speaker 3: that I have planned and projected and think I can
Speaker 3: do based on data inputs that I have. That's input
Speaker 3: number one right, second input what is my heart rate?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: And so heart rate is super important.
Speaker 3: If you measure on your wrist, it's a useless indicator
Speaker 3: because there's too much noise, right, there's bone, your hand moves.
Speaker 3: You have to measure it on your arm. Everybody screws
Speaker 3: this up, all the runners do. You got to put
Speaker 3: it on your chest to your arm right. Once you
Speaker 3: do that, you get accurate readings on your heart rate.
Speaker 3: So then you've got a second data signal, and then
Speaker 3: that can override. And so if my heart rate is
Speaker 3: above X and I'm running a certain pace, I know
Speaker 3: I can't sustain it for fifty miles or twenty six
Speaker 3: point two. So that's input number two. And then input
Speaker 3: number three is feel right, and so I know how
Speaker 3: I should feel at a certain point in a race,
Speaker 3: and so then that can override heart rate or pace.
Speaker 3: And so then as you run in an optimal, ideal scenario,
Speaker 3: everything is working as planned. So in that like warmog race,
Speaker 3: I'm running six thirty five, my heart rate is like
Speaker 3: you know, basically, let's say it's one twenty five in
Speaker 3: the first twenty miles and I feel nothing right, and
Speaker 3: if I can sustain that, then I'm in good shit.
Speaker 2: Then what happens is as the race progresses.
Speaker 3: A you like you lose your brain right, you can
Speaker 3: no longer think, you can no longer trust yourself right,
Speaker 3: you start to make bad decisions, and you start to
Speaker 3: go too quickly or you start to go to slowly.
Speaker 2: But the goal is to be able to hold off.
Speaker 3: And make good decisions as long as you can about
Speaker 3: how you pace yourself based on all of those inputs. Also,
Speaker 3: I should add you have to like look very carefully
Speaker 3: at the weather, you have to look very carefully at
Speaker 3: the wind, and you have to think about like are
Speaker 3: you to be able to run in a group of
Speaker 3: runners and how does that affect your pace? So that's
Speaker 3: a kind of complicated answer.
Speaker 2: Is that how you do your five k's Nate?
Speaker 4: No? No, But what's frustrating is like I've gotten good
Speaker 4: at like running exactly that distance. Right. The other day
Speaker 4: my partner and I were trying to run a little
Speaker 4: bit longer, and like at exactly three point one three miles, right,
Speaker 4: I hit a wall pretty much right, And so like, yeah,
Speaker 4: I think you're applying a lot more precision. But let
Speaker 4: me let me ask what worth is your goal? You'll
Speaker 4: say you're running a marathon for simplicity's sake. Should you
Speaker 4: feel totally wiped out at the end? Is that a
Speaker 4: proof that you optimally targeted the right amount of effort
Speaker 4: and pace or do you want to feel still able
Speaker 4: to walk around and not totally beat up?
Speaker 2: You want to feel.
Speaker 3: You do want to feel wiped out, but you don't
Speaker 3: want to feel like you're wiped out until the very
Speaker 3: last step, because if you, like most people who feel
Speaker 3: wiped out at the end of a marathon. Push too
Speaker 3: hard early and so then they've crushed themselves in the
Speaker 3: last five miles, three miles, ten miles or a death march,
Speaker 3: and you're gonna run a terrible race. And so feeling
Speaker 3: wiped out is like necessary but not sufficient for having
Speaker 3: run your optimal pace. But like your optimal pace is
Speaker 3: you actually feel like you. I think of it as
Speaker 3: you have one hundred pennies in your pocket, right and
Speaker 3: you're spending them through the race, and the last foot
Speaker 3: you spend, the last or the last quarter mile you
Speaker 3: spend the last one. You often will spend all one
Speaker 3: hundred pennies by mile twenty one, and then it's just hell.
Speaker 4: Let me ask a question for people who are not
Speaker 4: hardcore runners, but maybe more casual runners. What's your favorite
Speaker 4: place to run in or around New York City.
Speaker 3: Well, Prospect Park is amazing, right, I love it. There's
Speaker 3: also a loop I love to do where you know,
Speaker 3: I run out to the verizono. You run out on
Speaker 3: the boardwalk onto the Verizona, you run on the boardwalk
Speaker 3: in Corney Island, you come back on Ocean Avenue. Obviously,
Speaker 3: that's a long run for people. But that's cool. I
Speaker 3: do you think that, like along the Brooklyn Navy Yard
Speaker 3: is a really good spot. I love the bridges right, Like,
Speaker 3: we're a lot of wear and tear on your knees
Speaker 3: going back and forth across the bridges. But you know,
Speaker 3: running across like Williamsburg and back on Brooklyn is awesome
Speaker 3: in the morning before it gets you crowded.
Speaker 1: So we have a few more like serious questions. But
Speaker 1: since Nate asked this, I'm going to give you just
Speaker 1: a lightning round of very quick questions about running for
Speaker 1: people who care about that. All right, best time of
Speaker 1: day to run.
Speaker 2: Sunrise?
Speaker 1: Okay, oh that's beautiful. I sleep through sunrise.
Speaker 4: Mostly surprised me about you, Maria.
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm not a morning person at all. Least dependable body.
Speaker 2: Part digestive system huh.
Speaker 4: Interesting.
Speaker 3: The blood flows away and it gets jostled, so you
Speaker 3: get a lot of stomach upset, which is kind of surprising.
Speaker 1: And non runners, Wow, that's yeah, that's very surprising. Pre
Speaker 1: run rituals.
Speaker 3: I stretch, I have a very like legitimate nutrition routine,
Speaker 3: and then I watch samu Wan Duro winning the Chicago
Speaker 3: Marathon back in like two thousand. I can't remember what
Speaker 3: year it was, but like there's this incredible recording samu
Speaker 3: Won Duro since passed away, but he's racing this guy
Speaker 3: Kebdet and they're just going back and forth and back
Speaker 3: and forth.
Speaker 2: It looks like Sammy's just like.
Speaker 3: Cooked and cooked and cooked and then he just destroys him.
Speaker 3: And I'm not sure what Chicago Marathon is, but I
Speaker 3: just always google like one jury cabadet Chicago Marathon and
Speaker 3: I watch it like an hour before whenever marathon I'm running,
Speaker 3: and it's great.
Speaker 4: I love that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Carbloating, do you carbload one day before a race, two
Speaker 1: days before a race? How do you work that in?
Speaker 4: I don't.
Speaker 3: I don't really like focus carbloating where you carb deplete
Speaker 3: and then eat lots of carbs. I feel like you
Speaker 3: hurt your immune system more than it's worth it, even
Speaker 3: if it does help you store carbs a little bit.
Speaker 3: I eat a sort of high density carbs Thursday races
Speaker 3: on Sunday, I'll start on Thursday.
Speaker 2: I'll be very focused on Friday a little bit on Saturday.
Speaker 1: Okay, gels are choose, Jelos, what brand?
Speaker 3: I think Morton is pretty good at it, But you
Speaker 3: want to mix them up because you don't want palate fatigue.
Speaker 3: You want so you want to like, you don't want
Speaker 3: to get too used to something because then it'll make
Speaker 3: you sick. And so A you rotate them and B
Speaker 3: you try to suck them now without tasting them fascinating.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this goes this goes to your to your gut
Speaker 1: answer as well. Yeah, all right, what's the best rice
Speaker 1: New York City Marathon? Okay, what about the Northeast Harboro
Speaker 1: Road Race.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's amazing, but they canceled it. So sad that
Speaker 2: was it. I love that race so much.
Speaker 3: But yeah, the New York t amer you can't beat
Speaker 3: the marathon, but the Northeast Tarborough Race close second.
Speaker 1: All right, and let's let's uh end the lightning round
Speaker 1: with a very risky business question. And you know, because
Speaker 1: we talk about being d gens all the time and
Speaker 1: gambling and all of that, what's the most djeny thing
Speaker 1: that you've ever done for the sake of running?
Speaker 2: And with djen as in like degenerative.
Speaker 1: No, oh, Nate, we've got we've got a we've got
Speaker 1: a djen newbie. Yeah, So when you're when you're a djen,
Speaker 1: is someone who takes maybe a little bit too much
Speaker 1: risk that they shouldn't be taking in the moment, makes
Speaker 1: a bad decision. Someone like, for instance, if you're a
Speaker 1: poker player, but then you decide to like use part
Speaker 1: of your buy and to play slots, which you should actually.
Speaker 2: Your dad might play slots.
Speaker 4: Degen leaning, I don't mean to make anything about sexuality
Speaker 4: or anything else, but like, yeah, I.
Speaker 3: Mean there's definitely a lot of DGEN and sexuality that
Speaker 3: is true.
Speaker 2: That's interesting.
Speaker 3: It's like, I mean, you've tried so hard, right, basically,
Speaker 3: like running a mile too hard to stay with the
Speaker 3: group is a basic DGEN move that everybody needs. But
Speaker 3: the most DGEN thing that I've done in a race
Speaker 3: or just in training either one. I mean, okay, so
Speaker 3: literally this is good. Last Saturday, I ran the Grand Canyon, right,
Speaker 3: uh huh. And I was running with like two folks
Speaker 3: who with very intense jobs. The group people both like
Speaker 3: two of them had very intense jobs and also had
Speaker 3: like to catch flights back to be with their kids, right,
Speaker 3: And so we had to complete it in a certain
Speaker 3: amount of time, and a we like didn't really pay
Speaker 3: attention to signs, which meant we added an extra like
Speaker 3: thousand feet of climbing and five miles of running and
Speaker 3: then b we like, we're so focused on getting to
Speaker 3: the airport that we like, we ran as fast as
Speaker 3: we could up the cans, like a twenty seven mile run.
Speaker 3: And then I was like, guys, you have five minutes
Speaker 3: to shower and pack, right, And they're like ten minutes,
Speaker 3: all right, find ten minutes to shower and pack. And
Speaker 3: so we packed and showered in ten minutes after running
Speaker 3: the Grand Can and drove like ninety miles an hour,
Speaker 3: got through the airport, barely made our flights, and it
Speaker 3: was not great for the people next to us and
Speaker 3: everything else or our suitcases.
Speaker 4: You know, I am the world record holder for age
Speaker 4: forty to forty nine year old men at the Denver
Speaker 4: Airport trying to catch a connecting cart. Are you really? Yeah?
Speaker 2: That's awesome.
Speaker 4: Do you run? Do people run faster mostly when they're inner?
Speaker 3: Yes, And that's a super interesting question of why, right,
Speaker 3: Like what is it about the psychology and physiology of
Speaker 3: being in a race? But it is totally different, and
Speaker 3: you're able to reach a mental space and extract like
Speaker 3: a percentage of maximum effort that is much higher than
Speaker 3: at any other point.
Speaker 1: There's a beautiful moment in your book when you talk
Speaker 1: about this when you try to run a marathon yourself
Speaker 1: in Prospect Park and it's much tougher than when you
Speaker 1: actually have.
Speaker 3: It's like there's a magic of being out there and
Speaker 3: having people cheer you on. But of course it also
Speaker 3: creates this dgen risk where you can like go too
Speaker 3: fast because you're trying to like appeal to the crowd,
Speaker 3: and then you cook yourself. But it's very different like
Speaker 3: running by yourself, running with one person, running with a group,
Speaker 3: running a race, you run totally different speeds.
Speaker 1: What's your goal for this marathon this year?
Speaker 3: Nick, It's this is the weirdest build up I've ever had.
Speaker 3: So I've had two little injuries, I've had this weird
Speaker 3: thing that happened last week. But I would love to
Speaker 3: be able to run two forty three thirty seven, which
Speaker 3: would be one second faster than I ran in two
Speaker 3: thousand and seven, which is when I ran thirteen seconds
Speaker 3: faster then when I got sick.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, that is a very good goal, and
Speaker 1: I think a really lovely note on which to end this,
Speaker 1: even though we could go on forever, but.
Speaker 2: So much fun.
Speaker 4: You guys.
Speaker 3: It's so interesting because you have such interesting ways into
Speaker 3: this from your like poker thinking writing backgrounds.
Speaker 2: This we should go on for hours.
Speaker 1: But unfortunately you have a magazine to run. Nick, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us once again. The book
Speaker 1: is the running ground. It is wonderful. You guys should
Speaker 1: all buy a copy, and Nick, you should return to
Speaker 1: editing and be my editor again. Thank you.
Speaker 2: You should send me another nine hundred page story memo.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me on. Maria, thank you, Nate.
Speaker 1: Let us know what you think of the show. Reach
Speaker 1: out to us at Risky Business at pushkin dot FM.
Speaker 1: Risky Business is hosted by me Maria Kanakova.
Speaker 4: And by me Nate Silver. The show was a cool
Speaker 4: production of Pushing Industries and iHeartMedia. This episode was produced
Speaker 4: by Isaa Carter. Our associate producer is Sonya gerwit Lydia
Speaker 4: Jean Ka and Daphne Chen are our editors, and our
Speaker 4: executive producer is Jacob Goldstein. Mixing by Sarah Bruger.
Speaker 1: If you like the show, please rate and review us
Speaker 1: so other people can find us too, But once again,
Speaker 1: only if you like us. We don't want those bad
Speaker 1: reviews out there, Thanks for tuning in