WEBVTT - Lessons From A Marathoner (with Nicholas Thompson) 0:00:15.564 --> 0:00:30.164 Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making 0:00:30.284 --> 0:00:34.364 better decisions. I'm Mariaknakova and I'm Nate Silver. Today on 0:00:34.404 --> 0:00:37.244 the show, we have an old friend of mine whom 0:00:37.284 --> 0:00:41.364 I've known for over a decade, Nick Thompson. So he 0:00:41.484 --> 0:00:45.084 is currently joining us from the New York City offices 0:00:45.164 --> 0:00:47.804 of the Atlantic where he is the CEO. So if 0:00:47.844 --> 0:00:50.324 you hear any background noise, you know this is soho, 0:00:50.444 --> 0:00:53.964 this is New York. There's stuff going on, and Nick 0:00:54.004 --> 0:00:56.684 has a lot of things going on. He is also 0:00:56.804 --> 0:01:00.284 the editor in chief, former editor in chief of a 0:01:00.364 --> 0:01:05.764 Wired and wrote a book called The Hawk and the 0:01:05.924 --> 0:01:08.964 Dove about the Cold War era. It's absolutely phenomenal. You 0:01:08.964 --> 0:01:12.724 should show out. But to me, he will always be 0:01:12.884 --> 0:01:15.604 my editor at The New Yorker, which is how I 0:01:15.764 --> 0:01:19.644 first met Nick. And he wasn't just my editor, he 0:01:19.684 --> 0:01:24.084 actually ran The New Yorker's website. And now we have 0:01:24.204 --> 0:01:26.924 him on because he has a new book coming out, 0:01:26.964 --> 0:01:29.764 I think the most personal book he's ever written, called 0:01:30.004 --> 0:01:33.364 The Running Ground. I apologize I only have a galley, 0:01:33.684 --> 0:01:37.924 but here's the galley. Here's how it looks, and it's 0:01:37.964 --> 0:01:42.124 about running, it's about his dad, it's a reflection on life, 0:01:42.164 --> 0:01:45.364 so many different things. Nick, Welcome to Risky Business. Nate 0:01:45.404 --> 0:01:46.964 and I are so happy to have you here. 0:01:47.684 --> 0:01:48.324 Thank you, Maria. 0:01:48.404 --> 0:01:50.564 I was actually just trying to figure out when exactly 0:01:50.724 --> 0:01:54.364 we met by looking at my old emails, but unfortunately 0:01:54.924 --> 0:01:57.164 it appears this other eight hundred of them that I've 0:01:57.204 --> 0:01:59.924 just gone through and now we're at nine hundred. 0:02:02.084 --> 0:02:05.604 This is this is what editing is like for people 0:02:05.644 --> 0:02:08.604 who want to behind the scenes look at the editing life. 0:02:09.004 --> 0:02:12.244 Nick and I have probably over one thousand emails between 0:02:12.404 --> 0:02:13.844 the two of us over the years. 0:02:14.004 --> 0:02:15.764 All right, here we got wait, we got it. 0:02:16.004 --> 0:02:19.804 Your new science and technology website, Dear Nick, Emilia Lester 0:02:19.804 --> 0:02:21.164 told me you're looking to hire someone to head up 0:02:21.164 --> 0:02:23.244 a new science acknowledge second for the New Yorker's website 0:02:23.404 --> 0:02:26.604 September twenty eight, twenty twelve. So we are looking at 0:02:26.644 --> 0:02:28.364 thirteen years and almost a month. 0:02:29.244 --> 0:02:32.324 Wow, that is incredible. Well, it's so good to be 0:02:32.964 --> 0:02:36.644 reunited here. And I've forgot the most important thing of 0:02:36.684 --> 0:02:39.684 your intro. Since your book is about running, you are 0:02:39.724 --> 0:02:42.964 the holder of the American record for the fifty k 0:02:43.204 --> 0:02:47.324 Ultra marathon from men forty to forty five, which is 0:02:47.404 --> 0:02:50.244 pretty fucking amazing, if I may say so. So I 0:02:50.244 --> 0:02:53.444 actually want to start not with running, but with your dad. 0:02:54.004 --> 0:02:57.004 Your relationship with your dad is a major part of 0:02:57.044 --> 0:02:59.204 the book, and i'd love to hear you talk a 0:02:59.244 --> 0:03:02.164 little bit about that. You have your dad, Scott Thompson, 0:03:02.204 --> 0:03:05.204 who was a runner and who's the one who actually 0:03:05.724 --> 0:03:09.084 got you introduced to running. And there's this beautiful, you know, 0:03:09.164 --> 0:03:12.884 very poignant moment of little Nick waiting at the marathon 0:03:12.964 --> 0:03:16.844 lives to give his dad some new shoes and orange juice, right, 0:03:17.364 --> 0:03:19.404 orange juice, Yeah, orange juice. 0:03:19.604 --> 0:03:21.524 Like orange is kind of on the way out, but 0:03:21.564 --> 0:03:23.684 like it was super hot for marathoners and I take 0:03:23.684 --> 0:03:24.004 it too. 0:03:24.964 --> 0:03:27.204 So so yeah, i'd love to hear you kind of 0:03:27.524 --> 0:03:31.324 talk about that intersection and that overlap and you're dad. 0:03:31.724 --> 0:03:31.884 Yeah. 0:03:31.924 --> 0:03:33.844 So my dad's an amazing guy. And part of the 0:03:33.884 --> 0:03:37.164 motivation for the book was thinking through his effect on me, 0:03:37.244 --> 0:03:39.124 thinking through his effect on running, thinking about the way 0:03:39.164 --> 0:03:41.924 running helped us communicate, and then his life story, which 0:03:41.964 --> 0:03:46.604 is interesting. All right, So my dad grows up in Oklahoma, 0:03:46.764 --> 0:03:49.964 He's got kind of a complicated family, doesn't want to 0:03:49.964 --> 0:03:53.764 be there, partly because of his overbearing Golden gloves boxing 0:03:53.844 --> 0:03:54.684 champion father. 0:03:55.164 --> 0:03:57.604 You know, my dad busts out, like finds. 0:03:57.284 --> 0:04:00.124 The school called andover replies, gets a scholarship, like rides 0:04:00.164 --> 0:04:02.004 horseback delivery newspaper and pays for it. 0:04:02.084 --> 0:04:05.844 Right, Great America. That's crazy, by the way, it's pretty cool, right, 0:04:07.404 --> 0:04:08.204 you know, goes to Endover. 0:04:08.284 --> 0:04:09.724 He's like, the kid doesn't fit in, hes got all 0:04:09.724 --> 0:04:13.404 the wrong clothes whatever makes it work. Goes to Stanford 0:04:13.444 --> 0:04:16.844 on a scholarship, crushes it, meets John F. Kennedy says, 0:04:16.884 --> 0:04:19.844 this kid's we president. Goes off it's a Rhodes scholarship. 0:04:19.924 --> 0:04:22.764 Goes to Oxford, you know, the friends, all the important 0:04:22.764 --> 0:04:24.884 people in England. Comes back, marries my mother, who comes 0:04:24.884 --> 0:04:28.324 from a prominent political family. Guy's on fire, right, he's 0:04:28.364 --> 0:04:30.764 like making plan to run for the Senate. You know, 0:04:30.844 --> 0:04:35.364 he's just crushing it. And then like starts to go wrong, 0:04:35.484 --> 0:04:38.524 like maybe he's not quite as good as everybody thinks, 0:04:38.564 --> 0:04:41.324 Like maybe he's drinking too much alcohol. And then he's 0:04:41.364 --> 0:04:44.364 like grappling with this secret that he's realized he's gay, right, 0:04:44.444 --> 0:04:46.844 and he is sort of new he was gay when 0:04:46.844 --> 0:04:49.284 he was young, but you know he was closeted. This 0:04:49.364 --> 0:04:51.284 is nineteen seventies America, it's a pretty hard time to 0:04:51.324 --> 0:04:54.564 come out, or nineteen sixties America. And so in nineteen 0:04:54.564 --> 0:04:57.004 eighty two, when I'm seven years old, he's like made 0:04:57.004 --> 0:04:59.044 the realization to himself that he's gay. 0:04:59.524 --> 0:05:00.844 He leaves, he moves to. 0:05:00.844 --> 0:05:04.044 Washington, and he's like, now he's trying to like make 0:05:04.124 --> 0:05:06.684 up for lost time, right, And so he's in these 0:05:07.364 --> 0:05:09.404 endless relationships increasingly inappropriate. 0:05:10.244 --> 0:05:12.204 He's diagnosed as being HIV positive. 0:05:12.244 --> 0:05:15.044 This is during the plague. Turns out it's a false diagnosis, 0:05:16.444 --> 0:05:19.884 and he has this like very intense trajectory that you know, 0:05:21.364 --> 0:05:24.724 in some ways the parts that are totally admirable, it is, 0:05:24.764 --> 0:05:26.604 it's possible, depending on how you count, that he is 0:05:26.644 --> 0:05:30.284 the first openly gay presidential appointee in American history. Every 0:05:30.284 --> 0:05:32.924 why works in the United States Information Agency since Shovered by Dog. 0:05:34.124 --> 0:05:36.324 You know, he's a very rare gay Republican in the 0:05:36.404 --> 0:05:39.884 Reagan administration. You know, he is like kind of he 0:05:39.964 --> 0:05:42.244 like plays a kind of important role in the like 0:05:42.364 --> 0:05:45.484 late eighties, early nineties, like you know, people should come 0:05:45.484 --> 0:05:47.564 out so that everybody knows that gay people are everywhere. 0:05:48.604 --> 0:05:52.844 But then he's like dating kind of like late teenage 0:05:52.924 --> 0:05:55.204 guys he's maybe met on the Internet or maybe paid 0:05:55.204 --> 0:05:59.244 for in DuPont circle, and he's like dating like hundreds 0:05:59.244 --> 0:06:01.524 of people a year, and he's like bringing the like 0:06:02.044 --> 0:06:04.444 wrong people to like parties, meeting fulm of people. And 0:06:04.444 --> 0:06:07.324 then he moves to Asia, maybe for academic research and 0:06:07.364 --> 0:06:11.284 maybe not. And by the end of his life he's 0:06:11.364 --> 0:06:15.564 running like a pseudo brothel in Bali. He's bankrupt, he's 0:06:15.604 --> 0:06:19.684 a tax fugitive, and it's just chaos. Right, So that's 0:06:19.684 --> 0:06:21.844 my dad, you know, And like when you meet me, 0:06:21.924 --> 0:06:22.804 you're like, what is your dad? 0:06:22.844 --> 0:06:22.884 Do? 0:06:22.924 --> 0:06:25.724 You don't really expect that to be the answer. I 0:06:25.764 --> 0:06:27.044 used to like to catch people up guard, like what 0:06:27.044 --> 0:06:28.804 are your parents doing? It's like my mom's an artistory 0:06:28.844 --> 0:06:30.404 and a baps and my dad runs a brothel in 0:06:30.444 --> 0:06:32.044 Bali and they're like what. 0:06:34.684 --> 0:06:34.964 Away? 0:06:35.004 --> 0:06:38.524 So like his story and he creates endless chaos in 0:06:38.564 --> 0:06:41.724 my life, in my sister's lives. But he and I 0:06:41.804 --> 0:06:44.604 have this like wonderful loving relationship the whole time through 0:06:44.644 --> 0:06:46.284 and like, you know, he taught me to run. I 0:06:46.284 --> 0:06:48.204 watch her run this marathon. He like cheers me on 0:06:48.284 --> 0:06:50.284 as I become a good runner. We run together when 0:06:50.284 --> 0:06:52.644 we're together, and so running is like part of the 0:06:52.684 --> 0:06:55.444 spine of our relationship, you know, up until the end. 0:06:55.844 --> 0:06:57.164 And then it's it doesn't. 0:06:57.004 --> 0:07:01.004 Escape my attention that, you know, when he dies in 0:07:01.044 --> 0:07:03.604 twenty seventeen, just when I started as the editor Wired, 0:07:04.244 --> 0:07:07.404 it is like soon after that that I become a 0:07:07.484 --> 0:07:09.684 much better runner. And there's something about process in his 0:07:09.764 --> 0:07:12.724 death that also plays a role in my evolution from 0:07:12.764 --> 0:07:14.404 like pretty good runner to very good runner. 0:07:14.484 --> 0:07:18.804 Does your need for it? Well, now I'm psychoanalyzing you 0:07:18.924 --> 0:07:19.884 go for it? Nate, go for it? 0:07:19.964 --> 0:07:20.124 Nate? 0:07:21.884 --> 0:07:25.084 Does your need for like or I don't know, I'm 0:07:25.124 --> 0:07:28.884 presuming in need? Right? Does the discipline that you apply 0:07:29.124 --> 0:07:31.564 in your running and maybe in other parts of your life? Right? 0:07:31.604 --> 0:07:36.084 I mean, is that out of a concern that if 0:07:36.124 --> 0:07:38.604 you aren't disciplined then things could spiral out of control 0:07:38.724 --> 0:07:39.724 like it did for your dad. 0:07:40.564 --> 0:07:41.484 That's definitely part of it. 0:07:41.524 --> 0:07:45.044 I mean that that is a very conscious My sister 0:07:45.084 --> 0:07:46.724 and I once took this. We were driving together and we 0:07:46.724 --> 0:07:49.524 were like, we're in this U haul, like moving stuff 0:07:49.524 --> 0:07:51.124 from his house from one place to another, and we 0:07:51.204 --> 0:07:54.244 had this conversation where like we both admitted to the 0:07:54.284 --> 0:07:58.044 other that our biggest fear in life was that like 0:07:58.124 --> 0:08:00.604 something about our genetic inheritance and having him as a 0:08:00.604 --> 0:08:05.404 father faded us to become just like crazy chaos agents 0:08:05.404 --> 0:08:08.164 and unlike until like I do have very much have 0:08:08.204 --> 0:08:12.084 a sense that if I lose discipline, I faced the 0:08:12.124 --> 0:08:13.804 risk of I mean, I'm very like him, Like I 0:08:13.884 --> 0:08:16.044 kind of look like him, I kind of act like him, right. 0:08:16.124 --> 0:08:19.364 I I had this crazy experience. It was like two 0:08:19.444 --> 0:08:21.884 years ago. I'm in this restaurant in San Francisco, and 0:08:21.924 --> 0:08:24.244 I'm with one of my dad's old friends. He's like 0:08:24.564 --> 0:08:28.364 roommate from college, and another guy from the Stanford class 0:08:28.364 --> 0:08:31.404 in nineteen sixty three walks in and so my dining 0:08:31.604 --> 0:08:33.684 my dining friend goes up to the other guy and goes, Hey, 0:08:34.724 --> 0:08:37.524 this kid here I'm having lunch with is the son 0:08:38.284 --> 0:08:39.924 of one of your old classmates. Who do you think 0:08:39.924 --> 0:08:41.684 it is? And he looks at me and goes, oh, 0:08:41.764 --> 0:08:46.564 that's Scottie Thompson's son, right, And you know, knowing that 0:08:46.644 --> 0:08:48.644 I like fifty percent of my DNA is his. I 0:08:48.644 --> 0:08:50.844 was raised by him, influenced by him, right, Like he 0:08:50.964 --> 0:08:53.244 like embedded his ambitions into me. 0:08:53.804 --> 0:08:57.164 Yeah, obviously I'm like terrified of going off the rails. 0:08:57.764 --> 0:09:00.844 Yeah, I mean you it is. It was very interesting 0:09:00.924 --> 0:09:03.244 to me that, you know, you did follow in your 0:09:03.324 --> 0:09:05.844 dad's pustups, even though when you were a kid like 0:09:05.884 --> 0:09:08.044 that couldn't have been easy. But then you went to andover, 0:09:08.244 --> 0:09:11.524 you went to Stanford right like you you did all 0:09:11.564 --> 0:09:13.804 of that that you applied for the roads you did 0:09:13.884 --> 0:09:18.364 not get it, but that you got everything else. So 0:09:18.364 --> 0:09:20.444 so I think I think you're I think you're okay, you. 0:09:20.404 --> 0:09:22.644 Got and then even that when I didn't, I still 0:09:22.724 --> 0:09:25.164 like I did what he did without even really knowing, 0:09:25.244 --> 0:09:27.404 like when he had done he had gotten the roads, 0:09:27.444 --> 0:09:31.004 and like Ghandak Ghana, what did I do after I 0:09:31.044 --> 0:09:33.324 graduated from college? Like I didn't really intend this. I 0:09:33.404 --> 0:09:37.084 ended up in Ghana like he got arrested in Ghana. 0:09:37.124 --> 0:09:39.084 I got kidnapped in Morocco right like we had like 0:09:39.204 --> 0:09:40.924 we had like all these similarities. 0:09:41.924 --> 0:09:43.244 I was like trying to be like the guy. 0:09:43.804 --> 0:09:44.004 You know. 0:09:44.684 --> 0:09:48.164 It was very interesting to me. And I think part 0:09:48.204 --> 0:09:50.844 of why you might be like it could be me 0:09:51.004 --> 0:09:53.564 right there, but for the grace of God go I 0:09:54.644 --> 0:09:58.684 is that your dad was brilliant, right, a remarkably smart man. 0:09:59.364 --> 0:10:02.324 He and you had his diaries that you went through, 0:10:02.804 --> 0:10:06.124 and the awareness of what alcoholism did to his father 0:10:06.844 --> 0:10:10.364 should have stopped it, and he intellectually realized that he 0:10:10.404 --> 0:10:13.084 should have stopped drinking, and he didn't, and he couldn't, 0:10:13.524 --> 0:10:15.804 And the fact that he was so smart and also 0:10:15.884 --> 0:10:20.084 disciplined in a lot of ways and conceptually and intellectually 0:10:20.084 --> 0:10:22.964 grasped all of this and yet on a purely kind 0:10:23.004 --> 0:10:27.044 of emotional, day to day life basis, couldn't couldn't follow through. 0:10:27.284 --> 0:10:29.084 I think if that were my dad, that would terrify me. 0:10:29.444 --> 0:10:31.924 I definitely worry that at some point alcoholism will come 0:10:31.924 --> 0:10:34.164 for me. And I'm very you know, very careful and 0:10:34.284 --> 0:10:38.884 very disciplined about that. I'm you know, now almost never drink, so, 0:10:39.124 --> 0:10:42.324 you know, dealing with the burdens and having observed my 0:10:42.324 --> 0:10:45.884 father so carefully and having seen these things come to him, 0:10:46.084 --> 0:10:47.484 And then what you say about the diaries is so 0:10:47.524 --> 0:10:50.724 interesting because he's so perceptive and smart and there are 0:10:50.764 --> 0:10:51.684 things he notices. 0:10:52.844 --> 0:10:53.044 You know. 0:10:53.044 --> 0:10:54.804 My sister and I often joke like she'll walk into 0:10:54.844 --> 0:10:58.924 a room, right and she'll like, within like ten minutes 0:10:58.924 --> 0:11:00.364 like be able to like sort of like see into 0:11:00.404 --> 0:11:04.204 everybody's soul and figure everything out. But she also feelsing 0:11:04.284 --> 0:11:07.444 so intensely, and I'm like sort of very like resilient, 0:11:07.444 --> 0:11:09.644 and like more stuff can like hit me. And when 0:11:09.644 --> 0:11:12.564 I'm like two and she's three, he writes in his 0:11:12.684 --> 0:11:14.644 diary like everything would be better if we could get 0:11:14.724 --> 0:11:16.444 Nikki to feel a little more and phil Us to 0:11:16.484 --> 0:11:19.804 feel a little less. Right, like these insights into like 0:11:19.804 --> 0:11:21.404 who become He writes this letter to me when I'm 0:11:21.404 --> 0:11:24.884 twenty one that I didn't reread until I was like 0:11:25.204 --> 0:11:28.124 forty nine, as like holy cow, like he saw through 0:11:28.164 --> 0:11:30.084 my whole twenties and like all the sort of the 0:11:30.084 --> 0:11:33.164 problems that befell me in my twenties. The guy was 0:11:33.924 --> 0:11:36.604 utterly brilliant and I wish I had as much of 0:11:36.604 --> 0:11:39.764 that as he had. And then I want the alcoholism 0:11:39.804 --> 0:11:42.964 and the you know, the tax evasion, whatever. 0:11:42.764 --> 0:11:45.524 Change those were to not not ever hit me. 0:11:47.044 --> 0:11:49.604 And it's always a mixed bag, Yeah. 0:11:49.404 --> 0:11:56.324 Yeah, parents, Jondren, always a mixed bag. True. 0:11:57.084 --> 0:12:16.244 And we'll be back right after this. I want to 0:12:16.244 --> 0:12:18.604 hear the origin story, as you know I always do 0:12:19.124 --> 0:12:21.844 about this book. How did you come to wanting to 0:12:21.884 --> 0:12:25.044 write about something so personal, which is not the type 0:12:25.044 --> 0:12:27.484 of writing you normally do? It is certainly not the 0:12:27.564 --> 0:12:29.804 kind of book that your last book was, even though 0:12:29.804 --> 0:12:31.324 you did have a personal connection to it. 0:12:32.164 --> 0:12:32.484 Yeah. 0:12:32.524 --> 0:12:35.724 So I had this very strange thing happen in my forties. 0:12:35.884 --> 0:12:38.884 So I was a very I was a pretty good 0:12:38.924 --> 0:12:42.484 runner in my twenties and thirties, and when I was 0:12:42.524 --> 0:12:44.884 thirty years old, I ran a two forty three marathon, 0:12:44.924 --> 0:12:47.604 which is excellent. I got sick, I got thyroid cancer. 0:12:47.564 --> 0:12:49.204 It took me two years. I came back, I ran 0:12:49.244 --> 0:12:52.564 two forty three again. And then for the next twelve 0:12:52.604 --> 0:12:54.964 or thirteen years, I ran almost exactly the same time 0:12:55.004 --> 0:12:57.164 I would run Fall Marathon. I'd run two forty three, 0:12:57.164 --> 0:12:59.004 which is a very good time. It puts you, like, 0:12:59.484 --> 0:12:59.884 you know, in. 0:12:59.884 --> 0:13:01.404 The local elite. 0:13:01.484 --> 0:13:03.484 And then in my mid forties I went much faster 0:13:03.604 --> 0:13:05.364 and I ran a two twenty nine, which suddenly put 0:13:05.364 --> 0:13:07.484 me in a whole new category. And so it was interesting, 0:13:07.604 --> 0:13:11.524 is I was going through this thought process of how 0:13:11.564 --> 0:13:13.924 did I get so much faster at a time where 0:13:13.924 --> 0:13:16.764 you're supposed to get slower, and like, as my body 0:13:16.844 --> 0:13:20.204 is clearly decaying, how did I make this improvement? Because 0:13:20.244 --> 0:13:23.004 it's not like I didn't train hard in my thirties right. 0:13:23.044 --> 0:13:24.444 It's not like I didn't focus, it's not like I 0:13:24.444 --> 0:13:26.724 didn't read books. It's not like I didn't eat kale right, 0:13:26.764 --> 0:13:29.844 Like I worked really hard, I just didn't go as fast. 0:13:30.884 --> 0:13:32.484 And then one day I was running across the Brooklyn 0:13:32.524 --> 0:13:35.844 Bridge and I had this like mental breakthrough. It's very 0:13:35.964 --> 0:13:38.604 rare to have, like a I feel like U see 0:13:38.644 --> 0:13:40.644 ideas common like waves and parts. But it was like 0:13:41.044 --> 0:13:43.644 literally hit me like a thunderbolt. I was like, oh 0:13:43.644 --> 0:13:47.524 my god. I didn't go faster because I didn't realize 0:13:47.524 --> 0:13:49.164 that I could be faster than I had been before 0:13:49.204 --> 0:13:52.364 I got sick, like I was psychologically blocked from like 0:13:52.444 --> 0:13:54.644 going faster than two forty three because that's how fast 0:13:54.684 --> 0:13:57.404 I had run before I got sick. And then that 0:13:57.564 --> 0:14:00.284 realization made me realize, well, what makes you go fast 0:14:00.324 --> 0:14:02.804 it makes you go slow is buried really deep inside 0:14:02.844 --> 0:14:06.164 of you, and that that is a profound revelation for 0:14:06.204 --> 0:14:08.204 all kinds of things in life. And so that that 0:14:08.284 --> 0:14:10.244 led me to think about my thought role that he 0:14:10.284 --> 0:14:12.924 played and maybe want to investigate these other runners. But 0:14:12.964 --> 0:14:17.284 it was this realization that the speed at which one 0:14:17.324 --> 0:14:21.044 can propel oneself through space is highly dependent on these 0:14:21.284 --> 0:14:25.524 very deep buried psychological factors made me think there's a book. 0:14:25.284 --> 0:14:29.564 Here, so I have. You know, we love data here 0:14:29.644 --> 0:14:32.644 on risky business and data when you're using when you're 0:14:32.644 --> 0:14:35.484 making decisions, and that's kind of what you've been talking about. 0:14:35.604 --> 0:14:37.804 But something that I found really interesting in your book 0:14:38.204 --> 0:14:40.484 is that some of the decisions you make seem to 0:14:40.524 --> 0:14:44.364 be very subjective in a certain way. And what I'm 0:14:44.444 --> 0:14:47.484 talking about specifically, and this is something that you know, 0:14:47.524 --> 0:14:51.884 as I think about risk and is something that would 0:14:51.924 --> 0:14:54.604 be that was kind of scary for me, which is 0:14:54.844 --> 0:14:58.924 the way that you describe trying to subjectively figure out 0:14:59.284 --> 0:15:01.724 health wise like am I going to am I about 0:15:01.724 --> 0:15:02.444 to hurt myself? 0:15:02.524 --> 0:15:03.204 Right or not? 0:15:03.684 --> 0:15:07.284 Like should I do I want to push through? Or 0:15:07.364 --> 0:15:12.084 am I about to like cause irreparable damage to you know, 0:15:12.404 --> 0:15:16.004 one of my muscles, one of my you know, bones, 0:15:16.044 --> 0:15:18.844 Like am I going to be hypothermic? Like what's going 0:15:18.924 --> 0:15:22.164 to happen to me? How do you actually calculate? Because 0:15:22.244 --> 0:15:25.484 to me, like the risk of mortgaging your health and 0:15:25.604 --> 0:15:28.484 like doing something that's really really scary for your body 0:15:29.204 --> 0:15:33.164 feels very daunting and I would I would always err 0:15:33.204 --> 0:15:34.404 on the side of you know what if you think 0:15:34.404 --> 0:15:37.404 you're about to be hurt. Stop and you start the book, 0:15:37.444 --> 0:15:40.524 you know, with your kind of your cancer diagnosis and 0:15:40.644 --> 0:15:46.084 kind of this really really monumental I think moment in 0:15:46.124 --> 0:15:48.204 your life where you thought you were going to die 0:15:48.404 --> 0:15:52.724 and you ended up surviving. So in my mind, if 0:15:52.764 --> 0:15:54.684 that weren't me, I'd be like wow, Like health is 0:15:54.804 --> 0:15:58.684 something that's crucially important. And yet right you're you're able 0:15:58.764 --> 0:16:03.124 to kind of push yourself through these limits. And it's 0:16:03.164 --> 0:16:05.484 not like you have a doctor monitoring you by your 0:16:05.524 --> 0:16:07.724 side being like Okay, Nick, You're okay to keep going. 0:16:07.924 --> 0:16:09.724 You have to trust yourself and be like Okay, I'm 0:16:09.764 --> 0:16:12.564 okay to keep going versus no, I need to stop. 0:16:13.044 --> 0:16:15.844 How how does that work? How does that risk calculus 0:16:15.884 --> 0:16:18.524 play out in your mind? And then also can we 0:16:19.164 --> 0:16:22.564 like go broader than running then how does that kind 0:16:22.564 --> 0:16:24.364 of thinking play out in your day. 0:16:24.244 --> 0:16:24.804 To day life? 0:16:26.364 --> 0:16:27.164 Super interesting. 0:16:27.284 --> 0:16:31.324 So I do have this belief that you want like 0:16:31.364 --> 0:16:34.084 there's a like a line, right, and it's a very 0:16:34.084 --> 0:16:38.204 hard line to find, but you go up as close 0:16:38.244 --> 0:16:40.604 to the line as you can get, and you're making 0:16:40.604 --> 0:16:43.124 yourself stronger and then you get on the other side 0:16:43.284 --> 0:16:44.564 and you're making yourself weaker. Right. 0:16:44.564 --> 0:16:47.484 And it's a little bit like how hard should you work? 0:16:48.124 --> 0:16:48.324 Right? 0:16:48.684 --> 0:16:51.004 At like what point does hard work become negative? Right? 0:16:51.124 --> 0:16:54.044 Is what time does Maria staying up so late you know, 0:16:54.084 --> 0:16:56.364 I don't know preparing for this poker tournament, that she'll 0:16:56.404 --> 0:17:01.084 perform less well, right, or like the amount of there's 0:17:01.124 --> 0:17:04.164 a point where extra effort has negative returns, right, And 0:17:04.204 --> 0:17:07.844 the same is true and running where if you because 0:17:07.844 --> 0:17:09.884 you're basically breaking your body rebuilding your body, and your 0:17:09.884 --> 0:17:11.884 body rebuilds a little bit stronger, and as you do that, 0:17:11.924 --> 0:17:13.964 you're able to take on more load, right, And so 0:17:14.604 --> 0:17:16.484 you run the five k a little bit faster. It 0:17:16.484 --> 0:17:18.524 makes you a little bit stronger. You train thirty miles 0:17:18.564 --> 0:17:20.284 not twenty seven miles. The next week, it makes you 0:17:20.324 --> 0:17:22.084 a little stronger and more capable of going thirty three. 0:17:22.084 --> 0:17:24.804 And you're just trying to like get further and further 0:17:24.844 --> 0:17:28.044 and further, and like, as you increase the exertion, you 0:17:28.084 --> 0:17:30.444 increase the exertion that you can do the next time. 0:17:31.004 --> 0:17:33.404 And so then the question is when do you like crossover? 0:17:33.764 --> 0:17:34.244 And so. 0:17:35.844 --> 0:17:38.004 That comes up in training right where you start to 0:17:38.164 --> 0:17:40.244 feel right, you start to like, right now, I have 0:17:40.284 --> 0:17:42.244 like a little something feels a little weird in the 0:17:42.244 --> 0:17:44.524 top of my right knee. Right. I know it's like 0:17:45.044 --> 0:17:47.204 coming inflammation, But I have the New York City marathons. 0:17:47.244 --> 0:17:49.884 You're taking this trade off. It's not soreness, it's injury. 0:17:50.364 --> 0:17:52.564 And how do I balance that with my training? And 0:17:52.604 --> 0:17:55.044 how do you balance that with your goals? And a 0:17:55.084 --> 0:17:57.404 lot of a lot of what you're trying to do 0:17:57.444 --> 0:18:01.804 when you train this hard is cultivate awareness about what 0:18:01.924 --> 0:18:04.804 is your body getting stronger, what is good fatigue, and 0:18:04.844 --> 0:18:09.124 what is like actual pre injury fatigue. And so that's 0:18:09.164 --> 0:18:11.564 one element of it, And that's like the only way 0:18:11.644 --> 0:18:14.964 you can really tell is cultivating body wardness. That's parably 0:18:14.964 --> 0:18:16.564 why I don't listen to music when I rung right, 0:18:16.604 --> 0:18:19.004 because you listen to music and you lose a little 0:18:19.004 --> 0:18:20.364 bit of that awareness and a little bit of that 0:18:20.364 --> 0:18:23.124 memory and a little bit of that knowledge. It gets 0:18:23.164 --> 0:18:25.564 harder in a race, right, because now you're out and 0:18:25.604 --> 0:18:28.284 you're out in the mountains and something's wrong, right, and 0:18:28.364 --> 0:18:31.004 so then you have a different calculus. And so this 0:18:31.124 --> 0:18:32.724 was the hardest time that's ever happened to me. Was 0:18:32.764 --> 0:18:35.364 the first time I read my first fifty miler and 0:18:35.404 --> 0:18:38.164 I go out there and I'm like all psyched to optimize. 0:18:38.164 --> 0:18:40.164 I've done my whole thing, I've made my split charts, 0:18:40.684 --> 0:18:43.804 everything's set. And then there's snows, right, and I brought 0:18:43.804 --> 0:18:45.924 these like shoes that are like great for running on 0:18:46.044 --> 0:18:50.604 like nice, you know, rocky roads, but are terrible for snow. 0:18:51.724 --> 0:18:53.164 Mile thirty two, I slip. 0:18:53.204 --> 0:18:55.804 I'm trying to like eat it goo like now something 0:18:55.884 --> 0:18:59.244 is wrong, right, And so the next five miles I'm 0:18:59.244 --> 0:19:04.564 trying to calculate am I injured or am I just tired? 0:19:05.244 --> 0:19:07.564 And it's so hard to tell. And you're cold, you're 0:19:07.604 --> 0:19:10.484 like near hypothermic. At that point, I remember pulling off 0:19:10.524 --> 0:19:12.724 into this tent and they're giving me like hot soup, 0:19:12.764 --> 0:19:14.444 and I'm trying to figure out do I keep forward 0:19:14.444 --> 0:19:15.204 do I drop out? 0:19:15.524 --> 0:19:18.404 I ended up dropping out, And you know, after I 0:19:18.444 --> 0:19:20.764 dropped out, I was like that, what a whimp? 0:19:20.884 --> 0:19:25.084 Like a terrible decision, right like, and then you know, 0:19:25.924 --> 0:19:27.804 I tried to run a few days after I got back, 0:19:28.004 --> 0:19:29.244 I was like, God, I'm going to like make up 0:19:29.284 --> 0:19:30.804 for this, and I was like, oh, something's wrong. I 0:19:30.844 --> 0:19:32.644 went to a doctor like yeah, you're like inches from 0:19:32.724 --> 0:19:34.204 ripping your achilles, so. 0:19:34.164 --> 0:19:38.044 It's probably the right decision. It's hard stuff. 0:19:39.484 --> 0:19:41.604 You don't listen to music? Do you listen to podcasts? 0:19:42.124 --> 0:19:44.524 Or I love it? 0:19:44.844 --> 0:19:47.004