1
00:00:15,564 --> 00:00:30,164
Speaker 1: Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making

2
00:00:30,284 --> 00:00:34,364
Speaker 1: better decisions. I'm Mariaknakova and I'm Nate Silver. Today on

3
00:00:34,404 --> 00:00:37,244
Speaker 1: the show, we have an old friend of mine whom

4
00:00:37,284 --> 00:00:41,364
Speaker 1: I've known for over a decade, Nick Thompson. So he

5
00:00:41,484 --> 00:00:45,084
Speaker 1: is currently joining us from the New York City offices

6
00:00:45,164 --> 00:00:47,804
Speaker 1: of the Atlantic where he is the CEO. So if

7
00:00:47,844 --> 00:00:50,324
Speaker 1: you hear any background noise, you know this is soho,

8
00:00:50,444 --> 00:00:53,964
Speaker 1: this is New York. There's stuff going on, and Nick

9
00:00:54,004 --> 00:00:56,684
Speaker 1: has a lot of things going on. He is also

10
00:00:56,804 --> 00:01:00,284
Speaker 1: the editor in chief, former editor in chief of a

11
00:01:00,364 --> 00:01:05,764
Speaker 1: Wired and wrote a book called The Hawk and the

12
00:01:05,924 --> 00:01:08,964
Speaker 1: Dove about the Cold War era. It's absolutely phenomenal. You

13
00:01:08,964 --> 00:01:12,724
Speaker 1: should show out. But to me, he will always be

14
00:01:12,884 --> 00:01:15,604
Speaker 1: my editor at The New Yorker, which is how I

15
00:01:15,764 --> 00:01:19,644
Speaker 1: first met Nick. And he wasn't just my editor, he

16
00:01:19,684 --> 00:01:24,084
Speaker 1: actually ran The New Yorker's website. And now we have

17
00:01:24,204 --> 00:01:26,924
Speaker 1: him on because he has a new book coming out,

18
00:01:26,964 --> 00:01:29,764
Speaker 1: I think the most personal book he's ever written, called

19
00:01:30,004 --> 00:01:33,364
Speaker 1: The Running Ground. I apologize I only have a galley,

20
00:01:33,684 --> 00:01:37,924
Speaker 1: but here's the galley. Here's how it looks, and it's

21
00:01:37,964 --> 00:01:42,124
Speaker 1: about running, it's about his dad, it's a reflection on life,

22
00:01:42,164 --> 00:01:45,364
Speaker 1: so many different things. Nick, Welcome to Risky Business. Nate

23
00:01:45,404 --> 00:01:46,964
Speaker 1: and I are so happy to have you here.

24
00:01:47,684 --> 00:01:48,324
Speaker 2: Thank you, Maria.

25
00:01:48,404 --> 00:01:50,564
Speaker 3: I was actually just trying to figure out when exactly

26
00:01:50,724 --> 00:01:54,364
Speaker 3: we met by looking at my old emails, but unfortunately

27
00:01:54,924 --> 00:01:57,164
Speaker 3: it appears this other eight hundred of them that I've

28
00:01:57,204 --> 00:01:59,924
Speaker 3: just gone through and now we're at nine hundred.

29
00:02:02,084 --> 00:02:05,604
Speaker 1: This is this is what editing is like for people

30
00:02:05,644 --> 00:02:08,604
Speaker 1: who want to behind the scenes look at the editing life.

31
00:02:09,004 --> 00:02:12,244
Speaker 1: Nick and I have probably over one thousand emails between

32
00:02:12,404 --> 00:02:13,844
Speaker 1: the two of us over the years.

33
00:02:14,004 --> 00:02:15,764
Speaker 2: All right, here we got wait, we got it.

34
00:02:16,004 --> 00:02:19,804
Speaker 3: Your new science and technology website, Dear Nick, Emilia Lester

35
00:02:19,804 --> 00:02:21,164
Speaker 3: told me you're looking to hire someone to head up

36
00:02:21,164 --> 00:02:23,244
Speaker 3: a new science acknowledge second for the New Yorker's website

37
00:02:23,404 --> 00:02:26,604
Speaker 3: September twenty eight, twenty twelve. So we are looking at

38
00:02:26,644 --> 00:02:28,364
Speaker 3: thirteen years and almost a month.

39
00:02:29,244 --> 00:02:32,324
Speaker 1: Wow, that is incredible. Well, it's so good to be

40
00:02:32,964 --> 00:02:36,644
Speaker 1: reunited here. And I've forgot the most important thing of

41
00:02:36,684 --> 00:02:39,684
Speaker 1: your intro. Since your book is about running, you are

42
00:02:39,724 --> 00:02:42,964
Speaker 1: the holder of the American record for the fifty k

43
00:02:43,204 --> 00:02:47,324
Speaker 1: Ultra marathon from men forty to forty five, which is

44
00:02:47,404 --> 00:02:50,244
Speaker 1: pretty fucking amazing, if I may say so. So I

45
00:02:50,244 --> 00:02:53,444
Speaker 1: actually want to start not with running, but with your dad.

46
00:02:54,004 --> 00:02:57,004
Speaker 1: Your relationship with your dad is a major part of

47
00:02:57,044 --> 00:02:59,204
Speaker 1: the book, and i'd love to hear you talk a

48
00:02:59,244 --> 00:03:02,164
Speaker 1: little bit about that. You have your dad, Scott Thompson,

49
00:03:02,204 --> 00:03:05,204
Speaker 1: who was a runner and who's the one who actually

50
00:03:05,724 --> 00:03:09,084
Speaker 1: got you introduced to running. And there's this beautiful, you know,

51
00:03:09,164 --> 00:03:12,884
Speaker 1: very poignant moment of little Nick waiting at the marathon

52
00:03:12,964 --> 00:03:16,844
Speaker 1: lives to give his dad some new shoes and orange juice, right,

53
00:03:17,364 --> 00:03:19,404
Speaker 1: orange juice, Yeah, orange juice.

54
00:03:19,604 --> 00:03:21,524
Speaker 3: Like orange is kind of on the way out, but

55
00:03:21,564 --> 00:03:23,684
Speaker 3: like it was super hot for marathoners and I take

56
00:03:23,684 --> 00:03:24,004
Speaker 3: it too.

57
00:03:24,964 --> 00:03:27,204
Speaker 1: So so yeah, i'd love to hear you kind of

58
00:03:27,524 --> 00:03:31,324
Speaker 1: talk about that intersection and that overlap and you're dad.

59
00:03:31,724 --> 00:03:31,884
Speaker 2: Yeah.

60
00:03:31,924 --> 00:03:33,844
Speaker 3: So my dad's an amazing guy. And part of the

61
00:03:33,884 --> 00:03:37,164
Speaker 3: motivation for the book was thinking through his effect on me,

62
00:03:37,244 --> 00:03:39,124
Speaker 3: thinking through his effect on running, thinking about the way

63
00:03:39,164 --> 00:03:41,924
Speaker 3: running helped us communicate, and then his life story, which

64
00:03:41,964 --> 00:03:46,604
Speaker 3: is interesting. All right, So my dad grows up in Oklahoma,

65
00:03:46,764 --> 00:03:49,964
Speaker 3: He's got kind of a complicated family, doesn't want to

66
00:03:49,964 --> 00:03:53,764
Speaker 3: be there, partly because of his overbearing Golden gloves boxing

67
00:03:53,844 --> 00:03:54,684
Speaker 3: champion father.

68
00:03:55,164 --> 00:03:57,604
Speaker 2: You know, my dad busts out, like finds.

69
00:03:57,284 --> 00:04:00,124
Speaker 3: The school called andover replies, gets a scholarship, like rides

70
00:04:00,164 --> 00:04:02,004
Speaker 3: horseback delivery newspaper and pays for it.

71
00:04:02,084 --> 00:04:05,844
Speaker 2: Right, Great America. That's crazy, by the way, it's pretty cool, right,

72
00:04:07,404 --> 00:04:08,204
Speaker 2: you know, goes to Endover.

73
00:04:08,284 --> 00:04:09,724
Speaker 3: He's like, the kid doesn't fit in, hes got all

74
00:04:09,724 --> 00:04:13,404
Speaker 3: the wrong clothes whatever makes it work. Goes to Stanford

75
00:04:13,444 --> 00:04:16,844
Speaker 3: on a scholarship, crushes it, meets John F. Kennedy says,

76
00:04:16,884 --> 00:04:19,844
Speaker 3: this kid's we president. Goes off it's a Rhodes scholarship.

77
00:04:19,924 --> 00:04:22,764
Speaker 3: Goes to Oxford, you know, the friends, all the important

78
00:04:22,764 --> 00:04:24,884
Speaker 3: people in England. Comes back, marries my mother, who comes

79
00:04:24,884 --> 00:04:28,324
Speaker 3: from a prominent political family. Guy's on fire, right, he's

80
00:04:28,364 --> 00:04:30,764
Speaker 3: like making plan to run for the Senate. You know,

81
00:04:30,844 --> 00:04:35,364
Speaker 3: he's just crushing it. And then like starts to go wrong,

82
00:04:35,484 --> 00:04:38,524
Speaker 3: like maybe he's not quite as good as everybody thinks,

83
00:04:38,564 --> 00:04:41,324
Speaker 3: Like maybe he's drinking too much alcohol. And then he's

84
00:04:41,364 --> 00:04:44,364
Speaker 3: like grappling with this secret that he's realized he's gay, right,

85
00:04:44,444 --> 00:04:46,844
Speaker 3: and he is sort of new he was gay when

86
00:04:46,844 --> 00:04:49,284
Speaker 3: he was young, but you know he was closeted. This

87
00:04:49,364 --> 00:04:51,284
Speaker 3: is nineteen seventies America, it's a pretty hard time to

88
00:04:51,324 --> 00:04:54,564
Speaker 3: come out, or nineteen sixties America. And so in nineteen

89
00:04:54,564 --> 00:04:57,004
Speaker 3: eighty two, when I'm seven years old, he's like made

90
00:04:57,004 --> 00:04:59,044
Speaker 3: the realization to himself that he's gay.

91
00:04:59,524 --> 00:05:00,844
Speaker 2: He leaves, he moves to.

92
00:05:00,844 --> 00:05:04,044
Speaker 3: Washington, and he's like, now he's trying to like make

93
00:05:04,124 --> 00:05:06,684
Speaker 3: up for lost time, right, And so he's in these

94
00:05:07,364 --> 00:05:09,404
Speaker 3: endless relationships increasingly inappropriate.

95
00:05:10,244 --> 00:05:12,204
Speaker 2: He's diagnosed as being HIV positive.

96
00:05:12,244 --> 00:05:15,044
Speaker 3: This is during the plague. Turns out it's a false diagnosis,

97
00:05:16,444 --> 00:05:19,884
Speaker 3: and he has this like very intense trajectory that you know,

98
00:05:21,364 --> 00:05:24,724
Speaker 3: in some ways the parts that are totally admirable, it is,

99
00:05:24,764 --> 00:05:26,604
Speaker 3: it's possible, depending on how you count, that he is

100
00:05:26,644 --> 00:05:30,284
Speaker 3: the first openly gay presidential appointee in American history. Every

101
00:05:30,284 --> 00:05:32,924
Speaker 3: why works in the United States Information Agency since Shovered by Dog.

102
00:05:34,124 --> 00:05:36,324
Speaker 3: You know, he's a very rare gay Republican in the

103
00:05:36,404 --> 00:05:39,884
Speaker 3: Reagan administration. You know, he is like kind of he

104
00:05:39,964 --> 00:05:42,244
Speaker 3: like plays a kind of important role in the like

105
00:05:42,364 --> 00:05:45,484
Speaker 3: late eighties, early nineties, like you know, people should come

106
00:05:45,484 --> 00:05:47,564
Speaker 3: out so that everybody knows that gay people are everywhere.

107
00:05:48,604 --> 00:05:52,844
Speaker 3: But then he's like dating kind of like late teenage

108
00:05:52,924 --> 00:05:55,204
Speaker 3: guys he's maybe met on the Internet or maybe paid

109
00:05:55,204 --> 00:05:59,244
Speaker 3: for in DuPont circle, and he's like dating like hundreds

110
00:05:59,244 --> 00:06:01,524
Speaker 3: of people a year, and he's like bringing the like

111
00:06:02,044 --> 00:06:04,444
Speaker 3: wrong people to like parties, meeting fulm of people. And

112
00:06:04,444 --> 00:06:07,324
Speaker 3: then he moves to Asia, maybe for academic research and

113
00:06:07,364 --> 00:06:11,284
Speaker 3: maybe not. And by the end of his life he's

114
00:06:11,364 --> 00:06:15,564
Speaker 3: running like a pseudo brothel in Bali. He's bankrupt, he's

115
00:06:15,604 --> 00:06:19,684
Speaker 3: a tax fugitive, and it's just chaos. Right, So that's

116
00:06:19,684 --> 00:06:21,844
Speaker 3: my dad, you know, And like when you meet me,

117
00:06:21,924 --> 00:06:22,804
Speaker 3: you're like, what is your dad?

118
00:06:22,844 --> 00:06:22,884
Speaker 1: Do?

119
00:06:22,924 --> 00:06:25,724
Speaker 3: You don't really expect that to be the answer. I

120
00:06:25,764 --> 00:06:27,044
Speaker 3: used to like to catch people up guard, like what

121
00:06:27,044 --> 00:06:28,804
Speaker 3: are your parents doing? It's like my mom's an artistory

122
00:06:28,844 --> 00:06:30,404
Speaker 3: and a baps and my dad runs a brothel in

123
00:06:30,444 --> 00:06:32,044
Speaker 3: Bali and they're like what.

124
00:06:34,684 --> 00:06:34,964
Speaker 2: Away?

125
00:06:35,004 --> 00:06:38,524
Speaker 3: So like his story and he creates endless chaos in

126
00:06:38,564 --> 00:06:41,724
Speaker 3: my life, in my sister's lives. But he and I

127
00:06:41,804 --> 00:06:44,604
Speaker 3: have this like wonderful loving relationship the whole time through

128
00:06:44,644 --> 00:06:46,284
Speaker 3: and like, you know, he taught me to run. I

129
00:06:46,284 --> 00:06:48,204
Speaker 3: watch her run this marathon. He like cheers me on

130
00:06:48,284 --> 00:06:50,284
Speaker 3: as I become a good runner. We run together when

131
00:06:50,284 --> 00:06:52,644
Speaker 3: we're together, and so running is like part of the

132
00:06:52,684 --> 00:06:55,444
Speaker 3: spine of our relationship, you know, up until the end.

133
00:06:55,844 --> 00:06:57,164
Speaker 2: And then it's it doesn't.

134
00:06:57,004 --> 00:07:01,004
Speaker 3: Escape my attention that, you know, when he dies in

135
00:07:01,044 --> 00:07:03,604
Speaker 3: twenty seventeen, just when I started as the editor Wired,

136
00:07:04,244 --> 00:07:07,404
Speaker 3: it is like soon after that that I become a

137
00:07:07,484 --> 00:07:09,684
Speaker 3: much better runner. And there's something about process in his

138
00:07:09,764 --> 00:07:12,724
Speaker 3: death that also plays a role in my evolution from

139
00:07:12,764 --> 00:07:14,404
Speaker 3: like pretty good runner to very good runner.

140
00:07:14,484 --> 00:07:18,804
Speaker 4: Does your need for it? Well, now I'm psychoanalyzing you

141
00:07:18,924 --> 00:07:19,884
Speaker 4: go for it? Nate, go for it?

142
00:07:19,964 --> 00:07:20,124
Speaker 3: Nate?

143
00:07:21,884 --> 00:07:25,084
Speaker 4: Does your need for like or I don't know, I'm

144
00:07:25,124 --> 00:07:28,884
Speaker 4: presuming in need? Right? Does the discipline that you apply

145
00:07:29,124 --> 00:07:31,564
Speaker 4: in your running and maybe in other parts of your life? Right?

146
00:07:31,604 --> 00:07:36,084
Speaker 4: I mean, is that out of a concern that if

147
00:07:36,124 --> 00:07:38,604
Speaker 4: you aren't disciplined then things could spiral out of control

148
00:07:38,724 --> 00:07:39,724
Speaker 4: like it did for your dad.

149
00:07:40,564 --> 00:07:41,484
Speaker 2: That's definitely part of it.

150
00:07:41,524 --> 00:07:45,044
Speaker 3: I mean that that is a very conscious My sister

151
00:07:45,084 --> 00:07:46,724
Speaker 3: and I once took this. We were driving together and we

152
00:07:46,724 --> 00:07:49,524
Speaker 3: were like, we're in this U haul, like moving stuff

153
00:07:49,524 --> 00:07:51,124
Speaker 3: from his house from one place to another, and we

154
00:07:51,204 --> 00:07:54,244
Speaker 3: had this conversation where like we both admitted to the

155
00:07:54,284 --> 00:07:58,044
Speaker 3: other that our biggest fear in life was that like

156
00:07:58,124 --> 00:08:00,604
Speaker 3: something about our genetic inheritance and having him as a

157
00:08:00,604 --> 00:08:05,404
Speaker 3: father faded us to become just like crazy chaos agents

158
00:08:05,404 --> 00:08:08,164
Speaker 3: and unlike until like I do have very much have

159
00:08:08,204 --> 00:08:12,084
Speaker 3: a sense that if I lose discipline, I faced the

160
00:08:12,124 --> 00:08:13,804
Speaker 3: risk of I mean, I'm very like him, Like I

161
00:08:13,884 --> 00:08:16,044
Speaker 3: kind of look like him, I kind of act like him, right.

162
00:08:16,124 --> 00:08:19,364
Speaker 3: I I had this crazy experience. It was like two

163
00:08:19,444 --> 00:08:21,884
Speaker 3: years ago. I'm in this restaurant in San Francisco, and

164
00:08:21,924 --> 00:08:24,244
Speaker 3: I'm with one of my dad's old friends. He's like

165
00:08:24,564 --> 00:08:28,364
Speaker 3: roommate from college, and another guy from the Stanford class

166
00:08:28,364 --> 00:08:31,404
Speaker 3: in nineteen sixty three walks in and so my dining

167
00:08:31,604 --> 00:08:33,684
Speaker 3: my dining friend goes up to the other guy and goes, Hey,

168
00:08:34,724 --> 00:08:37,524
Speaker 3: this kid here I'm having lunch with is the son

169
00:08:38,284 --> 00:08:39,924
Speaker 3: of one of your old classmates. Who do you think

170
00:08:39,924 --> 00:08:41,684
Speaker 3: it is? And he looks at me and goes, oh,

171
00:08:41,764 --> 00:08:46,564
Speaker 3: that's Scottie Thompson's son, right, And you know, knowing that

172
00:08:46,644 --> 00:08:48,644
Speaker 3: I like fifty percent of my DNA is his. I

173
00:08:48,644 --> 00:08:50,844
Speaker 3: was raised by him, influenced by him, right, Like he

174
00:08:50,964 --> 00:08:53,244
Speaker 3: like embedded his ambitions into me.

175
00:08:53,804 --> 00:08:57,164
Speaker 2: Yeah, obviously I'm like terrified of going off the rails.

176
00:08:57,764 --> 00:09:00,844
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you it is. It was very interesting

177
00:09:00,924 --> 00:09:03,244
Speaker 1: to me that, you know, you did follow in your

178
00:09:03,324 --> 00:09:05,844
Speaker 1: dad's pustups, even though when you were a kid like

179
00:09:05,884 --> 00:09:08,044
Speaker 1: that couldn't have been easy. But then you went to andover,

180
00:09:08,244 --> 00:09:11,524
Speaker 1: you went to Stanford right like you you did all

181
00:09:11,564 --> 00:09:13,804
Speaker 1: of that that you applied for the roads you did

182
00:09:13,884 --> 00:09:18,364
Speaker 1: not get it, but that you got everything else. So

183
00:09:18,364 --> 00:09:20,444
Speaker 1: so I think I think you're I think you're okay, you.

184
00:09:20,404 --> 00:09:22,644
Speaker 3: Got and then even that when I didn't, I still

185
00:09:22,724 --> 00:09:25,164
Speaker 3: like I did what he did without even really knowing,

186
00:09:25,244 --> 00:09:27,404
Speaker 3: like when he had done he had gotten the roads,

187
00:09:27,444 --> 00:09:31,004
Speaker 3: and like Ghandak Ghana, what did I do after I

188
00:09:31,044 --> 00:09:33,324
Speaker 3: graduated from college? Like I didn't really intend this. I

189
00:09:33,404 --> 00:09:37,084
Speaker 3: ended up in Ghana like he got arrested in Ghana.

190
00:09:37,124 --> 00:09:39,084
Speaker 3: I got kidnapped in Morocco right like we had like

191
00:09:39,204 --> 00:09:40,924
Speaker 3: we had like all these similarities.

192
00:09:41,924 --> 00:09:43,244
Speaker 2: I was like trying to be like the guy.

193
00:09:43,804 --> 00:09:44,004
Speaker 3: You know.

194
00:09:44,684 --> 00:09:48,164
Speaker 1: It was very interesting to me. And I think part

195
00:09:48,204 --> 00:09:50,844
Speaker 1: of why you might be like it could be me

196
00:09:51,004 --> 00:09:53,564
Speaker 1: right there, but for the grace of God go I

197
00:09:54,644 --> 00:09:58,684
Speaker 1: is that your dad was brilliant, right, a remarkably smart man.

198
00:09:59,364 --> 00:10:02,324
Speaker 1: He and you had his diaries that you went through,

199
00:10:02,804 --> 00:10:06,124
Speaker 1: and the awareness of what alcoholism did to his father

200
00:10:06,844 --> 00:10:10,364
Speaker 1: should have stopped it, and he intellectually realized that he

201
00:10:10,404 --> 00:10:13,084
Speaker 1: should have stopped drinking, and he didn't, and he couldn't,

202
00:10:13,524 --> 00:10:15,804
Speaker 1: And the fact that he was so smart and also

203
00:10:15,884 --> 00:10:20,084
Speaker 1: disciplined in a lot of ways and conceptually and intellectually

204
00:10:20,084 --> 00:10:22,964
Speaker 1: grasped all of this and yet on a purely kind

205
00:10:23,004 --> 00:10:27,044
Speaker 1: of emotional, day to day life basis, couldn't couldn't follow through.

206
00:10:27,284 --> 00:10:29,084
Speaker 1: I think if that were my dad, that would terrify me.

207
00:10:29,444 --> 00:10:31,924
Speaker 3: I definitely worry that at some point alcoholism will come

208
00:10:31,924 --> 00:10:34,164
Speaker 3: for me. And I'm very you know, very careful and

209
00:10:34,284 --> 00:10:38,884
Speaker 3: very disciplined about that. I'm you know, now almost never drink, so,

210
00:10:39,124 --> 00:10:42,324
Speaker 3: you know, dealing with the burdens and having observed my

211
00:10:42,324 --> 00:10:45,884
Speaker 3: father so carefully and having seen these things come to him,

212
00:10:46,084 --> 00:10:47,484
Speaker 3: And then what you say about the diaries is so

213
00:10:47,524 --> 00:10:50,724
Speaker 3: interesting because he's so perceptive and smart and there are

214
00:10:50,764 --> 00:10:51,684
Speaker 3: things he notices.

215
00:10:52,844 --> 00:10:53,044
Speaker 2: You know.

216
00:10:53,044 --> 00:10:54,804
Speaker 3: My sister and I often joke like she'll walk into

217
00:10:54,844 --> 00:10:58,924
Speaker 3: a room, right and she'll like, within like ten minutes

218
00:10:58,924 --> 00:11:00,364
Speaker 3: like be able to like sort of like see into

219
00:11:00,404 --> 00:11:04,204
Speaker 3: everybody's soul and figure everything out. But she also feelsing

220
00:11:04,284 --> 00:11:07,444
Speaker 3: so intensely, and I'm like sort of very like resilient,

221
00:11:07,444 --> 00:11:09,644
Speaker 3: and like more stuff can like hit me. And when

222
00:11:09,644 --> 00:11:12,564
Speaker 3: I'm like two and she's three, he writes in his

223
00:11:12,684 --> 00:11:14,644
Speaker 3: diary like everything would be better if we could get

224
00:11:14,724 --> 00:11:16,444
Speaker 3: Nikki to feel a little more and phil Us to

225
00:11:16,484 --> 00:11:19,804
Speaker 3: feel a little less. Right, like these insights into like

226
00:11:19,804 --> 00:11:21,404
Speaker 3: who become He writes this letter to me when I'm

227
00:11:21,404 --> 00:11:24,884
Speaker 3: twenty one that I didn't reread until I was like

228
00:11:25,204 --> 00:11:28,124
Speaker 3: forty nine, as like holy cow, like he saw through

229
00:11:28,164 --> 00:11:30,084
Speaker 3: my whole twenties and like all the sort of the

230
00:11:30,084 --> 00:11:33,164
Speaker 3: problems that befell me in my twenties. The guy was

231
00:11:33,924 --> 00:11:36,604
Speaker 3: utterly brilliant and I wish I had as much of

232
00:11:36,604 --> 00:11:39,764
Speaker 3: that as he had. And then I want the alcoholism

233
00:11:39,804 --> 00:11:42,964
Speaker 3: and the you know, the tax evasion, whatever.

234
00:11:42,764 --> 00:11:45,524
Speaker 2: Change those were to not not ever hit me.

235
00:11:47,044 --> 00:11:49,604
Speaker 1: And it's always a mixed bag, Yeah.

236
00:11:49,404 --> 00:11:56,324
Speaker 2: Yeah, parents, Jondren, always a mixed bag. True.

237
00:11:57,084 --> 00:12:16,244
Speaker 1: And we'll be back right after this. I want to

238
00:12:16,244 --> 00:12:18,604
Speaker 1: hear the origin story, as you know I always do

239
00:12:19,124 --> 00:12:21,844
Speaker 1: about this book. How did you come to wanting to

240
00:12:21,884 --> 00:12:25,044
Speaker 1: write about something so personal, which is not the type

241
00:12:25,044 --> 00:12:27,484
Speaker 1: of writing you normally do? It is certainly not the

242
00:12:27,564 --> 00:12:29,804
Speaker 1: kind of book that your last book was, even though

243
00:12:29,804 --> 00:12:31,324
Speaker 1: you did have a personal connection to it.

244
00:12:32,164 --> 00:12:32,484
Speaker 2: Yeah.

245
00:12:32,524 --> 00:12:35,724
Speaker 3: So I had this very strange thing happen in my forties.

246
00:12:35,884 --> 00:12:38,884
Speaker 3: So I was a very I was a pretty good

247
00:12:38,924 --> 00:12:42,484
Speaker 3: runner in my twenties and thirties, and when I was

248
00:12:42,524 --> 00:12:44,884
Speaker 3: thirty years old, I ran a two forty three marathon,

249
00:12:44,924 --> 00:12:47,604
Speaker 3: which is excellent. I got sick, I got thyroid cancer.

250
00:12:47,564 --> 00:12:49,204
Speaker 3: It took me two years. I came back, I ran

251
00:12:49,244 --> 00:12:52,564
Speaker 3: two forty three again. And then for the next twelve

252
00:12:52,604 --> 00:12:54,964
Speaker 3: or thirteen years, I ran almost exactly the same time

253
00:12:55,004 --> 00:12:57,164
Speaker 3: I would run Fall Marathon. I'd run two forty three,

254
00:12:57,164 --> 00:12:59,004
Speaker 3: which is a very good time. It puts you, like,

255
00:12:59,484 --> 00:12:59,884
Speaker 3: you know, in.

256
00:12:59,884 --> 00:13:01,404
Speaker 2: The local elite.

257
00:13:01,484 --> 00:13:03,484
Speaker 3: And then in my mid forties I went much faster

258
00:13:03,604 --> 00:13:05,364
Speaker 3: and I ran a two twenty nine, which suddenly put

259
00:13:05,364 --> 00:13:07,484
Speaker 3: me in a whole new category. And so it was interesting,

260
00:13:07,604 --> 00:13:11,524
Speaker 3: is I was going through this thought process of how

261
00:13:11,564 --> 00:13:13,924
Speaker 3: did I get so much faster at a time where

262
00:13:13,924 --> 00:13:16,764
Speaker 3: you're supposed to get slower, and like, as my body

263
00:13:16,844 --> 00:13:20,204
Speaker 3: is clearly decaying, how did I make this improvement? Because

264
00:13:20,244 --> 00:13:23,004
Speaker 3: it's not like I didn't train hard in my thirties right.

265
00:13:23,044 --> 00:13:24,444
Speaker 3: It's not like I didn't focus, it's not like I

266
00:13:24,444 --> 00:13:26,724
Speaker 3: didn't read books. It's not like I didn't eat kale right,

267
00:13:26,764 --> 00:13:29,844
Speaker 3: Like I worked really hard, I just didn't go as fast.

268
00:13:30,884 --> 00:13:32,484
Speaker 3: And then one day I was running across the Brooklyn

269
00:13:32,524 --> 00:13:35,844
Speaker 3: Bridge and I had this like mental breakthrough. It's very

270
00:13:35,964 --> 00:13:38,604
Speaker 3: rare to have, like a I feel like U see

271
00:13:38,644 --> 00:13:40,644
Speaker 3: ideas common like waves and parts. But it was like

272
00:13:41,044 --> 00:13:43,644
Speaker 3: literally hit me like a thunderbolt. I was like, oh

273
00:13:43,644 --> 00:13:47,524
Speaker 3: my god. I didn't go faster because I didn't realize

274
00:13:47,524 --> 00:13:49,164
Speaker 3: that I could be faster than I had been before

275
00:13:49,204 --> 00:13:52,364
Speaker 3: I got sick, like I was psychologically blocked from like

276
00:13:52,444 --> 00:13:54,644
Speaker 3: going faster than two forty three because that's how fast

277
00:13:54,684 --> 00:13:57,404
Speaker 3: I had run before I got sick. And then that

278
00:13:57,564 --> 00:14:00,284
Speaker 3: realization made me realize, well, what makes you go fast

279
00:14:00,324 --> 00:14:02,804
Speaker 3: it makes you go slow is buried really deep inside

280
00:14:02,844 --> 00:14:06,164
Speaker 3: of you, and that that is a profound revelation for

281
00:14:06,204 --> 00:14:08,204
Speaker 3: all kinds of things in life. And so that that

282
00:14:08,284 --> 00:14:10,244
Speaker 3: led me to think about my thought role that he

283
00:14:10,284 --> 00:14:12,924
Speaker 3: played and maybe want to investigate these other runners. But

284
00:14:12,964 --> 00:14:17,284
Speaker 3: it was this realization that the speed at which one

285
00:14:17,324 --> 00:14:21,044
Speaker 3: can propel oneself through space is highly dependent on these

286
00:14:21,284 --> 00:14:25,524
Speaker 3: very deep buried psychological factors made me think there's a book.

287
00:14:25,284 --> 00:14:29,564
Speaker 1: Here, so I have. You know, we love data here

288
00:14:29,644 --> 00:14:32,644
Speaker 1: on risky business and data when you're using when you're

289
00:14:32,644 --> 00:14:35,484
Speaker 1: making decisions, and that's kind of what you've been talking about.

290
00:14:35,604 --> 00:14:37,804
Speaker 1: But something that I found really interesting in your book

291
00:14:38,204 --> 00:14:40,484
Speaker 1: is that some of the decisions you make seem to

292
00:14:40,524 --> 00:14:44,364
Speaker 1: be very subjective in a certain way. And what I'm

293
00:14:44,444 --> 00:14:47,484
Speaker 1: talking about specifically, and this is something that you know,

294
00:14:47,524 --> 00:14:51,884
Speaker 1: as I think about risk and is something that would

295
00:14:51,924 --> 00:14:54,604
Speaker 1: be that was kind of scary for me, which is

296
00:14:54,844 --> 00:14:58,924
Speaker 1: the way that you describe trying to subjectively figure out

297
00:14:59,284 --> 00:15:01,724
Speaker 1: health wise like am I going to am I about

298
00:15:01,724 --> 00:15:02,444
Speaker 1: to hurt myself?

299
00:15:02,524 --> 00:15:03,204
Speaker 4: Right or not?

300
00:15:03,684 --> 00:15:07,284
Speaker 1: Like should I do I want to push through? Or

301
00:15:07,364 --> 00:15:12,084
Speaker 1: am I about to like cause irreparable damage to you know,

302
00:15:12,404 --> 00:15:16,004
Speaker 1: one of my muscles, one of my you know, bones,

303
00:15:16,044 --> 00:15:18,844
Speaker 1: Like am I going to be hypothermic? Like what's going

304
00:15:18,924 --> 00:15:22,164
Speaker 1: to happen to me? How do you actually calculate? Because

305
00:15:22,244 --> 00:15:25,484
Speaker 1: to me, like the risk of mortgaging your health and

306
00:15:25,604 --> 00:15:28,484
Speaker 1: like doing something that's really really scary for your body

307
00:15:29,204 --> 00:15:33,164
Speaker 1: feels very daunting and I would I would always err

308
00:15:33,204 --> 00:15:34,404
Speaker 1: on the side of you know what if you think

309
00:15:34,404 --> 00:15:37,404
Speaker 1: you're about to be hurt. Stop and you start the book,

310
00:15:37,444 --> 00:15:40,524
Speaker 1: you know, with your kind of your cancer diagnosis and

311
00:15:40,644 --> 00:15:46,084
Speaker 1: kind of this really really monumental I think moment in

312
00:15:46,124 --> 00:15:48,204
Speaker 1: your life where you thought you were going to die

313
00:15:48,404 --> 00:15:52,724
Speaker 1: and you ended up surviving. So in my mind, if

314
00:15:52,764 --> 00:15:54,684
Speaker 1: that weren't me, I'd be like wow, Like health is

315
00:15:54,804 --> 00:15:58,684
Speaker 1: something that's crucially important. And yet right you're you're able

316
00:15:58,764 --> 00:16:03,124
Speaker 1: to kind of push yourself through these limits. And it's

317
00:16:03,164 --> 00:16:05,484
Speaker 1: not like you have a doctor monitoring you by your

318
00:16:05,524 --> 00:16:07,724
Speaker 1: side being like Okay, Nick, You're okay to keep going.

319
00:16:07,924 --> 00:16:09,724
Speaker 1: You have to trust yourself and be like Okay, I'm

320
00:16:09,764 --> 00:16:12,564
Speaker 1: okay to keep going versus no, I need to stop.

321
00:16:13,044 --> 00:16:15,844
Speaker 1: How how does that work? How does that risk calculus

322
00:16:15,884 --> 00:16:18,524
Speaker 1: play out in your mind? And then also can we

323
00:16:19,164 --> 00:16:22,564
Speaker 1: like go broader than running then how does that kind

324
00:16:22,564 --> 00:16:24,364
Speaker 1: of thinking play out in your day.

325
00:16:24,244 --> 00:16:24,804
Speaker 4: To day life?

326
00:16:26,364 --> 00:16:27,164
Speaker 2: Super interesting.

327
00:16:27,284 --> 00:16:31,324
Speaker 3: So I do have this belief that you want like

328
00:16:31,364 --> 00:16:34,084
Speaker 3: there's a like a line, right, and it's a very

329
00:16:34,084 --> 00:16:38,204
Speaker 3: hard line to find, but you go up as close

330
00:16:38,244 --> 00:16:40,604
Speaker 3: to the line as you can get, and you're making

331
00:16:40,604 --> 00:16:43,124
Speaker 3: yourself stronger and then you get on the other side

332
00:16:43,284 --> 00:16:44,564
Speaker 3: and you're making yourself weaker. Right.

333
00:16:44,564 --> 00:16:47,484
Speaker 2: And it's a little bit like how hard should you work?

334
00:16:48,124 --> 00:16:48,324
Speaker 3: Right?

335
00:16:48,684 --> 00:16:51,004
Speaker 2: At like what point does hard work become negative? Right?

336
00:16:51,124 --> 00:16:54,044
Speaker 3: Is what time does Maria staying up so late you know,

337
00:16:54,084 --> 00:16:56,364
Speaker 3: I don't know preparing for this poker tournament, that she'll

338
00:16:56,404 --> 00:17:01,084
Speaker 3: perform less well, right, or like the amount of there's

339
00:17:01,124 --> 00:17:04,164
Speaker 3: a point where extra effort has negative returns, right, And

340
00:17:04,204 --> 00:17:07,844
Speaker 3: the same is true and running where if you because

341
00:17:07,844 --> 00:17:09,884
Speaker 3: you're basically breaking your body rebuilding your body, and your

342
00:17:09,884 --> 00:17:11,884
Speaker 3: body rebuilds a little bit stronger, and as you do that,

343
00:17:11,924 --> 00:17:13,964
Speaker 3: you're able to take on more load, right, And so

344
00:17:14,604 --> 00:17:16,484
Speaker 3: you run the five k a little bit faster. It

345
00:17:16,484 --> 00:17:18,524
Speaker 3: makes you a little bit stronger. You train thirty miles

346
00:17:18,564 --> 00:17:20,284
Speaker 3: not twenty seven miles. The next week, it makes you

347
00:17:20,324 --> 00:17:22,084
Speaker 3: a little stronger and more capable of going thirty three.

348
00:17:22,084 --> 00:17:24,804
Speaker 3: And you're just trying to like get further and further

349
00:17:24,844 --> 00:17:28,044
Speaker 3: and further, and like, as you increase the exertion, you

350
00:17:28,084 --> 00:17:30,444
Speaker 3: increase the exertion that you can do the next time.

351
00:17:31,004 --> 00:17:33,404
Speaker 2: And so then the question is when do you like crossover?

352
00:17:33,764 --> 00:17:34,244
Speaker 2: And so.

353
00:17:35,844 --> 00:17:38,004
Speaker 3: That comes up in training right where you start to

354
00:17:38,164 --> 00:17:40,244
Speaker 3: feel right, you start to like, right now, I have

355
00:17:40,284 --> 00:17:42,244
Speaker 3: like a little something feels a little weird in the

356
00:17:42,244 --> 00:17:44,524
Speaker 3: top of my right knee. Right. I know it's like

357
00:17:45,044 --> 00:17:47,204
Speaker 3: coming inflammation, But I have the New York City marathons.

358
00:17:47,244 --> 00:17:49,884
Speaker 3: You're taking this trade off. It's not soreness, it's injury.

359
00:17:50,364 --> 00:17:52,564
Speaker 3: And how do I balance that with my training? And

360
00:17:52,604 --> 00:17:55,044
Speaker 3: how do you balance that with your goals? And a

361
00:17:55,084 --> 00:17:57,404
Speaker 3: lot of a lot of what you're trying to do

362
00:17:57,444 --> 00:18:01,804
Speaker 3: when you train this hard is cultivate awareness about what

363
00:18:01,924 --> 00:18:04,804
Speaker 3: is your body getting stronger, what is good fatigue, and

364
00:18:04,844 --> 00:18:09,124
Speaker 3: what is like actual pre injury fatigue. And so that's

365
00:18:09,164 --> 00:18:11,564
Speaker 3: one element of it, And that's like the only way

366
00:18:11,644 --> 00:18:14,964
Speaker 3: you can really tell is cultivating body wardness. That's parably

367
00:18:14,964 --> 00:18:16,564
Speaker 3: why I don't listen to music when I rung right,

368
00:18:16,604 --> 00:18:19,004
Speaker 3: because you listen to music and you lose a little

369
00:18:19,004 --> 00:18:20,364
Speaker 3: bit of that awareness and a little bit of that

370
00:18:20,364 --> 00:18:23,124
Speaker 3: memory and a little bit of that knowledge. It gets

371
00:18:23,164 --> 00:18:25,564
Speaker 3: harder in a race, right, because now you're out and

372
00:18:25,604 --> 00:18:28,284
Speaker 3: you're out in the mountains and something's wrong, right, and

373
00:18:28,364 --> 00:18:31,004
Speaker 3: so then you have a different calculus. And so this

374
00:18:31,124 --> 00:18:32,724
Speaker 3: was the hardest time that's ever happened to me. Was

375
00:18:32,764 --> 00:18:35,364
Speaker 3: the first time I read my first fifty miler and

376
00:18:35,404 --> 00:18:38,164
Speaker 3: I go out there and I'm like all psyched to optimize.

377
00:18:38,164 --> 00:18:40,164
Speaker 3: I've done my whole thing, I've made my split charts,

378
00:18:40,684 --> 00:18:43,804
Speaker 3: everything's set. And then there's snows, right, and I brought

379
00:18:43,804 --> 00:18:45,924
Speaker 3: these like shoes that are like great for running on

380
00:18:46,044 --> 00:18:50,604
Speaker 3: like nice, you know, rocky roads, but are terrible for snow.

381
00:18:51,724 --> 00:18:53,164
Speaker 2: Mile thirty two, I slip.

382
00:18:53,204 --> 00:18:55,804
Speaker 3: I'm trying to like eat it goo like now something

383
00:18:55,884 --> 00:18:59,244
Speaker 3: is wrong, right, And so the next five miles I'm

384
00:18:59,244 --> 00:19:04,564
Speaker 3: trying to calculate am I injured or am I just tired?

385
00:19:05,244 --> 00:19:07,564
Speaker 3: And it's so hard to tell. And you're cold, you're

386
00:19:07,604 --> 00:19:10,484
Speaker 3: like near hypothermic. At that point, I remember pulling off

387
00:19:10,524 --> 00:19:12,724
Speaker 3: into this tent and they're giving me like hot soup,

388
00:19:12,764 --> 00:19:14,444
Speaker 3: and I'm trying to figure out do I keep forward

389
00:19:14,444 --> 00:19:15,204
Speaker 3: do I drop out?

390
00:19:15,524 --> 00:19:18,404
Speaker 2: I ended up dropping out, And you know, after I

391
00:19:18,444 --> 00:19:20,764
Speaker 2: dropped out, I was like that, what a whimp?

392
00:19:20,884 --> 00:19:25,084
Speaker 3: Like a terrible decision, right like, and then you know,

393
00:19:25,924 --> 00:19:27,804
Speaker 3: I tried to run a few days after I got back,

394
00:19:28,004 --> 00:19:29,244
Speaker 3: I was like, God, I'm going to like make up

395
00:19:29,284 --> 00:19:30,804
Speaker 3: for this, and I was like, oh, something's wrong. I

396
00:19:30,844 --> 00:19:32,644
Speaker 3: went to a doctor like yeah, you're like inches from

397
00:19:32,724 --> 00:19:34,204
Speaker 3: ripping your achilles, so.

398
00:19:34,164 --> 00:19:38,044
Speaker 2: It's probably the right decision. It's hard stuff.

399
00:19:39,484 --> 00:19:41,604
Speaker 4: You don't listen to music? Do you listen to podcasts?

400
00:19:42,124 --> 00:19:44,524
Speaker 4: Or I love it?

401
00:19:44,844 --> 00:19:47,004
Speaker 1: Do you listen to risky Business while you're running? It?

402
00:19:47,924 --> 00:19:48,724
Speaker 4: So I do.

403
00:19:48,804 --> 00:19:51,764
Speaker 3: When I'm so most of my miles, I'm like running

404
00:19:51,764 --> 00:19:53,364
Speaker 3: to work, right, I run to the office, I run

405
00:19:53,364 --> 00:19:56,364
Speaker 3: home from the office, and I'm running like nine minutes

406
00:19:56,404 --> 00:19:59,244
Speaker 3: a mile, right, Like I'm just jogging down Canal Street, right,

407
00:19:59,284 --> 00:20:02,764
Speaker 3: And I'm not like, yeah, then I listened to risky Business.

408
00:20:02,804 --> 00:20:05,524
Speaker 3: I'm listening all kinds of podcasts. I'm listening to audiobooks.

409
00:20:06,884 --> 00:20:08,644
Speaker 3: It's great, it's super efficient. But if I'm out and

410
00:20:08,684 --> 00:20:11,724
Speaker 3: i'm training, so my basically like I'm training three days

411
00:20:11,804 --> 00:20:14,444
Speaker 3: or four days a week, and I'm just like hobby

412
00:20:14,524 --> 00:20:16,164
Speaker 3: jagging three or four days a week, right, And when

413
00:20:16,204 --> 00:20:18,244
Speaker 3: I'm a hobby jagging, I'm listening to podcasts or whatever.

414
00:20:18,324 --> 00:20:20,324
Speaker 2: When I'm like training, I'm not. That makes sense?

415
00:20:20,644 --> 00:20:21,284
Speaker 1: That makes sense?

416
00:20:21,524 --> 00:20:24,244
Speaker 4: Is it safe to assume that, like, once you get

417
00:20:24,284 --> 00:20:27,404
Speaker 4: to a certain level of performance or aspiration of performance

418
00:20:27,444 --> 00:20:32,084
Speaker 4: for running, then ninety eight percent of your life has

419
00:20:32,124 --> 00:20:39,004
Speaker 4: to be not oriented toward that. But like you know, obviously, diet, sleep, booze,

420
00:20:39,324 --> 00:20:43,364
Speaker 4: drugs other health decisions that you're making. Right, it starts

421
00:20:43,364 --> 00:20:47,164
Speaker 4: to become fairly comprehensive as far as like daytay decisions

422
00:20:47,204 --> 00:20:49,244
Speaker 4: you're making. Is that is that fair or is there

423
00:20:49,324 --> 00:20:53,004
Speaker 4: like a little bit more slack than one might assume?

424
00:20:53,564 --> 00:20:54,964
Speaker 4: And is that a good thing or a bad thing?

425
00:20:56,124 --> 00:21:01,764
Speaker 2: I think to really really reach your utter potential?

426
00:21:01,884 --> 00:21:08,164
Speaker 3: Yes, but I've never done that, like I've gone I've never.

427
00:21:09,644 --> 00:21:11,444
Speaker 2: Right, I'm training for the New York Marathon.

428
00:21:11,604 --> 00:21:14,564
Speaker 3: It's the Age Group World Championships, right, like I really

429
00:21:14,604 --> 00:21:18,604
Speaker 3: want to do well. I just like went to Arizona

430
00:21:18,844 --> 00:21:20,644
Speaker 3: to go run in the Grand Cannon, which is stupid

431
00:21:20,644 --> 00:21:22,164
Speaker 3: if you're training for a marathon in three weeks and

432
00:21:22,204 --> 00:21:25,604
Speaker 3: then immediately flew to Italy to go like moderate an

433
00:21:25,604 --> 00:21:29,844
Speaker 3: event because that's cool too, right, And like you would

434
00:21:29,884 --> 00:21:33,204
Speaker 3: never do that if you were like really optimizing.

435
00:21:33,484 --> 00:21:33,684
Speaker 4: Right.

436
00:21:34,084 --> 00:21:39,004
Speaker 3: They optimized a lot, right, but not not ninety nine percent.

437
00:21:39,804 --> 00:21:42,724
Speaker 1: So this is actually a really interesting point in your book.

438
00:21:42,804 --> 00:21:45,484
Speaker 1: So you have there are two coaches that kind of

439
00:21:46,364 --> 00:21:49,364
Speaker 1: you write about. I mean, you write about more coaches.

440
00:21:49,404 --> 00:21:52,124
Speaker 1: But so you went to Stanford to run originally, I

441
00:21:52,124 --> 00:21:55,084
Speaker 1: mean obviously for academics, but also it was a kind

442
00:21:55,084 --> 00:21:58,764
Speaker 1: of legendary running team that you that you were a

443
00:21:58,764 --> 00:22:02,164
Speaker 1: part of, and that didn't go quite according to plan.

444
00:22:02,284 --> 00:22:05,244
Speaker 1: But then I did that you ended up and you

445
00:22:05,244 --> 00:22:07,884
Speaker 1: can tell the story. That's why I'm not a I'm

446
00:22:07,924 --> 00:22:10,724
Speaker 1: not fully I'm not fully it right now. And then

447
00:22:10,764 --> 00:22:14,164
Speaker 1: you ended up doing this project for Nike where you

448
00:22:14,204 --> 00:22:16,964
Speaker 1: got hooked up with a coach who changed your life

449
00:22:17,004 --> 00:22:20,364
Speaker 1: and changed your running trajectory. And they both saw you

450
00:22:20,484 --> 00:22:23,884
Speaker 1: very differently and had a very different approach to how

451
00:22:24,764 --> 00:22:28,204
Speaker 1: running should be optimized for you personally. And I think

452
00:22:28,284 --> 00:22:30,964
Speaker 1: that's something that we don't talk about enough when we

453
00:22:31,044 --> 00:22:34,364
Speaker 1: talk about decision making, right, that there's no one size

454
00:22:34,404 --> 00:22:36,364
Speaker 1: fits all, and that a lot of times you do

455
00:22:36,444 --> 00:22:39,044
Speaker 1: have to look at the individual variables the individual to

456
00:22:39,124 --> 00:22:42,124
Speaker 1: make the best decision possible. It's not like a universal

457
00:22:42,204 --> 00:22:44,964
Speaker 1: best decision, right, It's how do you train this person?

458
00:22:45,044 --> 00:22:47,564
Speaker 1: So I'd love for you to talk about this contrast.

459
00:22:48,084 --> 00:22:51,124
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great insight. So I go to Stanford

460
00:22:51,124 --> 00:22:53,124
Speaker 3: and I ron this guy Vinla Nana is like the

461
00:22:53,204 --> 00:22:56,084
Speaker 3: most successful best coaching American track history, or like in

462
00:22:56,084 --> 00:23:00,724
Speaker 3: the conversation, and I'm not the best recruit. I'm tenth recruit,

463
00:23:00,924 --> 00:23:03,964
Speaker 3: you know, and I'm like, I never even raised for

464
00:23:04,044 --> 00:23:05,324
Speaker 3: the team, and I'm off the team by the beginning

465
00:23:05,364 --> 00:23:09,044
Speaker 3: of my sophomore year. And I interviewed him as part

466
00:23:09,084 --> 00:23:10,604
Speaker 3: of the search for this book, and one of the

467
00:23:10,604 --> 00:23:13,244
Speaker 3: things he said to me was like, yeah, I needed

468
00:23:13,324 --> 00:23:16,284
Speaker 3: kids who were utterly devoted and like they weren't concerned

469
00:23:16,284 --> 00:23:19,404
Speaker 3: about academic excellence and like really just wanted to be runners.

470
00:23:19,404 --> 00:23:20,964
Speaker 3: And I like, when I was talking, I was like, okay, yeah,

471
00:23:21,004 --> 00:23:22,804
Speaker 3: and I never I didn't want that, right, Like I

472
00:23:22,924 --> 00:23:25,604
Speaker 3: liked running, I liked being good, but it was never

473
00:23:25,884 --> 00:23:28,364
Speaker 3: the most important thing in my life even then, you know,

474
00:23:28,364 --> 00:23:30,084
Speaker 3: I loved all these other things. And so I was

475
00:23:30,364 --> 00:23:33,044
Speaker 3: I like, I couldn't have succeeded, like in order for

476
00:23:33,124 --> 00:23:35,324
Speaker 3: him to maybe I had the Maybe I have the

477
00:23:35,364 --> 00:23:37,644
Speaker 3: innate talent to be a much better runner. And if

478
00:23:37,644 --> 00:23:39,044
Speaker 3: anybody in the world could have found it might have

479
00:23:39,084 --> 00:23:42,204
Speaker 3: been Lenana. The guy's a genius. And but I realized

480
00:23:42,204 --> 00:23:44,284
Speaker 3: talking to him, like I never could have committed enough

481
00:23:44,324 --> 00:23:46,084
Speaker 3: for him to commit to me to find that talent.

482
00:23:47,044 --> 00:23:48,644
Speaker 3: So then when I'm in my forties, get coached by

483
00:23:48,684 --> 00:23:51,724
Speaker 3: this guy, Steve Finley, who interestingly had like studied under Lenana,

484
00:23:52,044 --> 00:23:54,284
Speaker 3: and you know, Finley like looks at my own logs

485
00:23:54,324 --> 00:23:57,244
Speaker 3: and like talks to me and realizes that I could

486
00:23:57,244 --> 00:23:59,564
Speaker 3: be doing much more and training much harder, and like

487
00:23:59,564 --> 00:24:01,844
Speaker 3: there are ways to unlock you know, much more speed.

488
00:24:02,324 --> 00:24:04,524
Speaker 3: But he also realizes that, like I don't care about

489
00:24:04,564 --> 00:24:07,084
Speaker 3: it that much. Like I love being fast, I care

490
00:24:07,124 --> 00:24:08,644
Speaker 3: about it a ton, I mean wrote a whole book

491
00:24:08,644 --> 00:24:11,084
Speaker 3: about it. Right, clear care a lot about running, but

492
00:24:11,124 --> 00:24:12,884
Speaker 3: I care about my job much more. I care about

493
00:24:12,884 --> 00:24:15,724
Speaker 3: my kids much more. And so he made me a schedule,

494
00:24:16,164 --> 00:24:17,884
Speaker 3: Like you know, these other coaches are like, well, Nick

495
00:24:17,884 --> 00:24:19,724
Speaker 3: should also do all this like core exercise and like

496
00:24:19,724 --> 00:24:22,044
Speaker 3: really needs to, like you work on his shoulder mobility.

497
00:24:22,044 --> 00:24:25,244
Speaker 3: And Steve was like, no, it doesn't right, And you know,

498
00:24:25,284 --> 00:24:29,484
Speaker 3: he makes the schedule and it would be like Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays,

499
00:24:29,524 --> 00:24:31,924
Speaker 3: Sundays would be like run option right, do whatever the

500
00:24:31,924 --> 00:24:34,524
Speaker 3: hell you want right. He would make workouts for that

501
00:24:34,564 --> 00:24:36,324
Speaker 3: were like optimized run a travel, like I wouldn't have

502
00:24:36,324 --> 00:24:38,324
Speaker 3: to find a track. Like he basically set it up

503
00:24:38,364 --> 00:24:41,604
Speaker 3: to be like what is the maximum amount that we

504
00:24:41,684 --> 00:24:44,644
Speaker 3: can get him to improve in the minimum amount of

505
00:24:44,724 --> 00:24:47,764
Speaker 3: time because there's a cap and if if you force

506
00:24:47,884 --> 00:24:50,404
Speaker 3: Nick to do more, he'll just stop because he cares

507
00:24:50,444 --> 00:24:52,004
Speaker 3: what this other stuff more. And so that was like

508
00:24:52,964 --> 00:24:55,244
Speaker 3: I needed that kind of a coach to bring about

509
00:24:55,284 --> 00:24:58,364
Speaker 3: that success. And it's a good lesson for coaching anything.

510
00:24:58,364 --> 00:25:00,244
Speaker 3: Like you're coaching someone in poker, right, you have to

511
00:25:00,324 --> 00:25:03,124
Speaker 3: like identify how much time is available, how much mental

512
00:25:03,204 --> 00:25:05,444
Speaker 3: energy is available, and then structure it for that. But

513
00:25:05,484 --> 00:25:08,164
Speaker 3: if I was like Maria, you know, like I need

514
00:25:08,204 --> 00:25:11,124
Speaker 3: you to write four story is a week, right, and

515
00:25:11,204 --> 00:25:13,164
Speaker 3: you would have been like you could have done it

516
00:25:13,284 --> 00:25:15,004
Speaker 3: or but you also would have been like, no, Nick,

517
00:25:15,084 --> 00:25:16,564
Speaker 3: like I have these other things I'm doing. I can

518
00:25:16,604 --> 00:25:18,564
Speaker 3: write two stories a week. You know, you have to

519
00:25:18,564 --> 00:25:20,524
Speaker 3: like figure out how like if you're a writer editor

520
00:25:20,604 --> 00:25:22,244
Speaker 3: relationship is similar to the runner coach.

521
00:25:23,124 --> 00:25:25,764
Speaker 4: Yeah, writing, writing and running in poker all have these

522
00:25:25,764 --> 00:25:29,604
Speaker 4: weird parallels, right, including I mean I'm running as well

523
00:25:29,604 --> 00:25:32,084
Speaker 4: as the other two obviously, but they seem to abtract

524
00:25:33,084 --> 00:25:36,044
Speaker 4: a certain type of obsessive I mean that in a

525
00:25:36,084 --> 00:25:38,404
Speaker 4: good way, who are walking a tight rope between like

526
00:25:39,204 --> 00:25:42,964
Speaker 4: achievement and discipline and have a long term plan. But

527
00:25:43,644 --> 00:25:48,124
Speaker 4: I don't know, there's something you know when I'm writing

528
00:25:48,204 --> 00:25:50,284
Speaker 4: something then like I almost feel like running is like

529
00:25:50,324 --> 00:25:54,164
Speaker 4: part of that work, right, I need time to physically

530
00:25:54,244 --> 00:25:55,644
Speaker 4: move in like processed thoughts.

531
00:25:55,964 --> 00:25:58,524
Speaker 3: I do think there are actually a surprising number of

532
00:25:58,564 --> 00:26:01,924
Speaker 3: writers who are also like George carl Ohates, like very

533
00:26:02,324 --> 00:26:04,404
Speaker 3: focused runner. When I was at the New Yorker, like

534
00:26:04,444 --> 00:26:06,644
Speaker 3: obviously Peter Hesler, who wrote for work round these past marathons,

535
00:26:06,724 --> 00:26:08,844
Speaker 3: I was like George Packer ran a two forty six marathon,

536
00:26:09,044 --> 00:26:10,684
Speaker 3: and go Steen, the head of Copy ran like a

537
00:26:10,724 --> 00:26:14,004
Speaker 3: three ten marathon eighties. Like all of these like New

538
00:26:14,044 --> 00:26:17,324
Speaker 3: York icons had actually at some point been like hardcore runners.

539
00:26:17,724 --> 00:26:20,484
Speaker 1: So how do you okay? You're one of the most

540
00:26:20,764 --> 00:26:24,124
Speaker 1: kind of ridiculously driven people I've ever met, and I

541
00:26:24,164 --> 00:26:25,964
Speaker 1: still remember. I think the first time I met you,

542
00:26:26,404 --> 00:26:28,644
Speaker 1: came to your office, you had your running clothes because

543
00:26:28,644 --> 00:26:31,324
Speaker 1: you'd run to work. I didn't realize yet that you

544
00:26:31,604 --> 00:26:33,804
Speaker 1: ran to work every single day at that point. You

545
00:26:33,844 --> 00:26:36,284
Speaker 1: have already three little kids, or at that point I

546
00:26:36,284 --> 00:26:38,084
Speaker 1: think you had fewer I had.

547
00:26:38,444 --> 00:26:39,884
Speaker 2: I had three kids. I had two kids, but the

548
00:26:39,964 --> 00:26:40,684
Speaker 2: third one was coming.

549
00:26:40,804 --> 00:26:45,364
Speaker 1: Yeah, they multiplied. While I knew you, and you know

550
00:26:45,764 --> 00:26:48,564
Speaker 1: you you worked with me on a series about sleep

551
00:26:48,724 --> 00:26:51,444
Speaker 1: a long time ago and about how important it is.

552
00:26:51,604 --> 00:26:53,724
Speaker 1: And yet you know I'm reading here like you wake

553
00:26:53,804 --> 00:26:56,364
Speaker 1: up at who knows what time so that you can

554
00:26:56,404 --> 00:26:59,124
Speaker 1: get all of these different elements of your life in,

555
00:26:59,244 --> 00:27:00,964
Speaker 1: so that you can get these runs in, you can

556
00:27:01,004 --> 00:27:04,644
Speaker 1: get these this training in during during the week. So

557
00:27:04,684 --> 00:27:09,124
Speaker 1: speaking of like that give and take of when does

558
00:27:09,164 --> 00:27:13,364
Speaker 1: this effort, you know, become counterproductive? How how do you

559
00:27:13,404 --> 00:27:15,644
Speaker 1: think about all of that and how do you how

560
00:27:15,684 --> 00:27:17,604
Speaker 1: do you think about that balance? And it also seems

561
00:27:17,604 --> 00:27:20,164
Speaker 1: like running actually kind of helps you get that balance,

562
00:27:20,444 --> 00:27:23,084
Speaker 1: which is which is very which is a funny thing

563
00:27:23,124 --> 00:27:25,044
Speaker 1: to say, given how much of your time you devote

564
00:27:25,084 --> 00:27:25,404
Speaker 1: to it.

565
00:27:25,604 --> 00:27:27,244
Speaker 3: Yeah, you get like you get a little bit like

566
00:27:27,284 --> 00:27:28,804
Speaker 3: for every hour you put into running, you get like

567
00:27:28,844 --> 00:27:31,204
Speaker 3: five minutes back, right, because it helps you fall asleep

568
00:27:31,284 --> 00:27:35,124
Speaker 3: and helps relax your mind. You know that that series,

569
00:27:35,164 --> 00:27:36,884
Speaker 3: it was a three part series. Actually it was pretty

570
00:27:36,924 --> 00:27:40,004
Speaker 3: influential because when you edit a story, you know, you

571
00:27:40,044 --> 00:27:42,084
Speaker 3: read the sources, you go through stuff. I started sleeping

572
00:27:42,084 --> 00:27:45,124
Speaker 3: more after working with you on that. Really, I mean,

573
00:27:45,644 --> 00:27:48,804
Speaker 3: let me just say that, I actually think people are like,

574
00:27:48,844 --> 00:27:51,204
Speaker 3: how do you, like, how do you spend so much

575
00:27:51,204 --> 00:27:53,724
Speaker 3: time running and so much time in your job. There's

576
00:27:53,724 --> 00:27:56,964
Speaker 3: so many parallels, Like running really hard makes you better

577
00:27:56,964 --> 00:27:59,524
Speaker 3: at focusing during hard zoom meetings. Right. I would imagine

578
00:27:59,964 --> 00:28:03,284
Speaker 3: that concentrating during poker makes you a better interviewer because

579
00:28:03,284 --> 00:28:05,404
Speaker 3: you are better at concentrating, like you are learning like

580
00:28:05,524 --> 00:28:09,204
Speaker 3: similar skills. And if your hobbies and passions can reinforce

581
00:28:09,244 --> 00:28:11,204
Speaker 3: your job, like you're in a good spot.

582
00:28:11,564 --> 00:28:14,364
Speaker 4: I mean, just some of the Marshmallow affects stuff too.

583
00:28:14,484 --> 00:28:16,604
Speaker 4: Maria can tell us whether the Marshallow study is accurate

584
00:28:16,684 --> 00:28:19,164
Speaker 4: or not. Right, But just like the routine practice of

585
00:28:19,244 --> 00:28:22,924
Speaker 4: having discipline, right, I mean, it's one of the most

586
00:28:22,964 --> 00:28:26,844
Speaker 4: basic things that most people are are too willing to

587
00:28:26,884 --> 00:28:30,004
Speaker 4: sacrifice the long term for the short term in terms

588
00:28:30,044 --> 00:28:32,204
Speaker 4: of happiness, right. And that can include like the long

589
00:28:32,284 --> 00:28:35,164
Speaker 4: term patience, Like you know, every article that I write

590
00:28:35,164 --> 00:28:38,284
Speaker 4: for my newsletter takes somewhere between four hours and like

591
00:28:38,444 --> 00:28:40,604
Speaker 4: four days, right, And like having the patience to say

592
00:28:40,604 --> 00:28:43,044
Speaker 4: I'm going to focus on this and not need a

593
00:28:43,124 --> 00:28:47,124
Speaker 4: quick hit when there's so many impulses like Twitter, for example,

594
00:28:47,244 --> 00:28:50,164
Speaker 4: and television, and I'm dating myself with television already, right,

595
00:28:50,204 --> 00:28:52,764
Speaker 4: But like everything else is such instant gratification where this

596
00:28:52,844 --> 00:28:55,644
Speaker 4: seems like this seems like a very different course to

597
00:28:55,764 --> 00:28:57,524
Speaker 4: choose in life.

598
00:28:57,924 --> 00:29:01,604
Speaker 3: Totally, And I feel like one of the things I

599
00:29:01,764 --> 00:29:06,084
Speaker 3: definitely believe is that discipline is chumutal it. Right, if

600
00:29:06,084 --> 00:29:08,604
Speaker 3: you make your bed, like you do something disciplined and

601
00:29:08,724 --> 00:29:11,244
Speaker 3: correct first thing in the morning, that makes it easier

602
00:29:11,284 --> 00:29:13,724
Speaker 3: to do the next thing discipline and correct ad nauseum. Right,

603
00:29:13,764 --> 00:29:15,364
Speaker 3: And sometimes you need to let your mind relax and

604
00:29:15,364 --> 00:29:18,324
Speaker 3: take a break. But like, discipline builds discipline, and so

605
00:29:18,364 --> 00:29:19,204
Speaker 3: I actually.

606
00:29:18,844 --> 00:29:19,364
Speaker 2: Think that.

607
00:29:20,884 --> 00:29:25,124
Speaker 3: Running hard, you know, makes it easier to focus and

608
00:29:25,204 --> 00:29:27,884
Speaker 3: do discipline things through the rest of your day in

609
00:29:27,924 --> 00:29:32,764
Speaker 3: your life.

610
00:29:34,044 --> 00:29:53,404
Speaker 4: Pam, We'll be right back after this break. Can ask

611
00:29:53,444 --> 00:29:57,244
Speaker 4: a very basic, I guess running question, right, of course, please,

612
00:29:57,644 --> 00:30:01,604
Speaker 4: how do you pace yourself? Right? Because like I will

613
00:30:01,684 --> 00:30:07,004
Speaker 4: run you know, five k's not ultra marathons, God forbid, right,

614
00:30:07,084 --> 00:30:09,084
Speaker 4: and like, you know, I'm not having sure what my

615
00:30:09,084 --> 00:30:13,484
Speaker 4: goal is necessarily, but it's it's hard to like avoid

616
00:30:13,604 --> 00:30:16,164
Speaker 4: going out too fast or too slow. And when you're

617
00:30:16,164 --> 00:30:19,204
Speaker 4: planning twenty six point two miles or what's it's like

618
00:30:19,284 --> 00:30:24,204
Speaker 4: thirty one miles, right, ultra marathon? How do you pace yourself?

619
00:30:24,244 --> 00:30:27,444
Speaker 4: And decide like a what point place do I think

620
00:30:27,444 --> 00:30:30,284
Speaker 4: I should be running and be how has my body

621
00:30:30,364 --> 00:30:31,404
Speaker 4: like achieved that pace?

622
00:30:32,684 --> 00:30:36,844
Speaker 2: That's so good? All right, So short answer, a long answer, Nate.

623
00:30:36,804 --> 00:30:40,444
Speaker 4: We have a whole hour long, long answered, Nick. All right.

624
00:30:40,564 --> 00:30:43,764
Speaker 3: So as you get older, you know, one of the

625
00:30:43,764 --> 00:30:46,044
Speaker 3: advantages of getting older is you have all this data

626
00:30:46,084 --> 00:30:49,204
Speaker 3: on yourself, right, And so you know how you've run

627
00:30:49,204 --> 00:30:51,324
Speaker 3: in previous races. You know all the workouts you did

628
00:30:51,324 --> 00:30:53,764
Speaker 3: before those races, and you know how those workouts you know,

629
00:30:53,804 --> 00:30:56,564
Speaker 3: project to future races or like I do. And so

630
00:30:57,244 --> 00:30:59,364
Speaker 3: before I begin a marathon, I have a general sense

631
00:30:59,404 --> 00:31:01,724
Speaker 3: of how fit I am compared to previous marathons.

632
00:31:01,804 --> 00:31:02,724
Speaker 2: So then I make a goal.

633
00:31:02,844 --> 00:31:04,564
Speaker 3: So this would be a marathon of fifty k or

634
00:31:04,564 --> 00:31:08,844
Speaker 3: a fifty miler, and I project out either what I

635
00:31:08,844 --> 00:31:12,524
Speaker 3: think i'm cap or I project out what is my goal,

636
00:31:12,564 --> 00:31:13,804
Speaker 3: like I want to break a record, I want to

637
00:31:13,804 --> 00:31:15,284
Speaker 3: set a world leading time, whatever it is.

638
00:31:15,604 --> 00:31:17,324
Speaker 2: And then I work backwards and I make a plan

639
00:31:17,364 --> 00:31:18,484
Speaker 2: for the race. And so.

640
00:31:20,324 --> 00:31:22,484
Speaker 3: The last race I ran and really cared about was

641
00:31:22,524 --> 00:31:25,124
Speaker 3: the Lake Warmog fifty miler, right, and I wanted to

642
00:31:25,204 --> 00:31:28,444
Speaker 3: run the American record for my age group, which meant running.

643
00:31:29,244 --> 00:31:32,084
Speaker 2: Basically six forties or six thirty eights per mile for

644
00:31:32,164 --> 00:31:33,084
Speaker 2: fifty miles.

645
00:31:33,164 --> 00:31:36,364
Speaker 3: And so I then kind of projected, can I possibly

646
00:31:36,404 --> 00:31:38,244
Speaker 3: do this based on my workouts, based on what I've

647
00:31:38,244 --> 00:31:40,964
Speaker 3: done before? Okay, made a plant, and so I made

648
00:31:40,964 --> 00:31:43,244
Speaker 3: a plan for every mile, like what I would run,

649
00:31:43,284 --> 00:31:45,804
Speaker 3: what I would plan to run. So then while I'm running,

650
00:31:45,884 --> 00:31:50,524
Speaker 3: I'm basically I'm measuring three things. I'm measuring my splits.

651
00:31:50,604 --> 00:31:52,924
Speaker 3: So am I running six thirty eight pace? Or if

652
00:31:52,924 --> 00:31:54,684
Speaker 3: my plan is to start at six forty five and

653
00:31:54,724 --> 00:31:57,364
Speaker 3: drop to six thirty two? Am I running the pace

654
00:31:57,404 --> 00:31:59,444
Speaker 3: that I have planned and projected and think I can

655
00:31:59,484 --> 00:32:02,844
Speaker 3: do based on data inputs that I have. That's input

656
00:32:02,924 --> 00:32:06,124
Speaker 3: number one right, second input what is my heart rate?

657
00:32:06,404 --> 00:32:06,604
Speaker 1: Right?

658
00:32:06,644 --> 00:32:08,684
Speaker 2: And so heart rate is super important.

659
00:32:08,884 --> 00:32:10,884
Speaker 3: If you measure on your wrist, it's a useless indicator

660
00:32:10,924 --> 00:32:13,204
Speaker 3: because there's too much noise, right, there's bone, your hand moves.

661
00:32:13,244 --> 00:32:15,364
Speaker 3: You have to measure it on your arm. Everybody screws

662
00:32:15,444 --> 00:32:16,884
Speaker 3: this up, all the runners do. You got to put

663
00:32:16,884 --> 00:32:19,244
Speaker 3: it on your chest to your arm right. Once you

664
00:32:19,284 --> 00:32:21,044
Speaker 3: do that, you get accurate readings on your heart rate.

665
00:32:21,124 --> 00:32:23,084
Speaker 3: So then you've got a second data signal, and then

666
00:32:23,124 --> 00:32:25,724
Speaker 3: that can override. And so if my heart rate is

667
00:32:25,764 --> 00:32:28,124
Speaker 3: above X and I'm running a certain pace, I know

668
00:32:28,204 --> 00:32:30,324
Speaker 3: I can't sustain it for fifty miles or twenty six

669
00:32:30,324 --> 00:32:32,804
Speaker 3: point two. So that's input number two. And then input

670
00:32:32,884 --> 00:32:35,644
Speaker 3: number three is feel right, and so I know how

671
00:32:35,684 --> 00:32:38,164
Speaker 3: I should feel at a certain point in a race,

672
00:32:38,204 --> 00:32:40,444
Speaker 3: and so then that can override heart rate or pace.

673
00:32:40,524 --> 00:32:44,244
Speaker 3: And so then as you run in an optimal, ideal scenario,

674
00:32:44,524 --> 00:32:47,044
Speaker 3: everything is working as planned. So in that like warmog race,

675
00:32:47,044 --> 00:32:49,284
Speaker 3: I'm running six thirty five, my heart rate is like

676
00:32:50,044 --> 00:32:52,484
Speaker 3: you know, basically, let's say it's one twenty five in

677
00:32:52,524 --> 00:32:55,084
Speaker 3: the first twenty miles and I feel nothing right, and

678
00:32:55,124 --> 00:32:57,004
Speaker 3: if I can sustain that, then I'm in good shit.

679
00:32:57,084 --> 00:32:59,604
Speaker 2: Then what happens is as the race progresses.

680
00:32:59,884 --> 00:33:03,164
Speaker 3: A you like you lose your brain right, you can

681
00:33:03,204 --> 00:33:05,444
Speaker 3: no longer think, you can no longer trust yourself right,

682
00:33:05,964 --> 00:33:08,244
Speaker 3: you start to make bad decisions, and you start to

683
00:33:08,244 --> 00:33:09,924
Speaker 3: go too quickly or you start to go to slowly.

684
00:33:10,524 --> 00:33:12,644
Speaker 2: But the goal is to be able to hold off.

685
00:33:12,404 --> 00:33:14,964
Speaker 3: And make good decisions as long as you can about

686
00:33:14,964 --> 00:33:17,884
Speaker 3: how you pace yourself based on all of those inputs. Also,

687
00:33:17,924 --> 00:33:20,684
Speaker 3: I should add you have to like look very carefully

688
00:33:20,724 --> 00:33:22,244
Speaker 3: at the weather, you have to look very carefully at

689
00:33:22,244 --> 00:33:24,484
Speaker 3: the wind, and you have to think about like are

690
00:33:24,484 --> 00:33:25,524
Speaker 3: you to be able to run in a group of

691
00:33:25,604 --> 00:33:28,444
Speaker 3: runners and how does that affect your pace? So that's

692
00:33:28,484 --> 00:33:29,564
Speaker 3: a kind of complicated answer.

693
00:33:29,604 --> 00:33:30,764
Speaker 2: Is that how you do your five k's Nate?

694
00:33:31,684 --> 00:33:35,244
Speaker 4: No? No, But what's frustrating is like I've gotten good

695
00:33:35,284 --> 00:33:37,764
Speaker 4: at like running exactly that distance. Right. The other day

696
00:33:37,844 --> 00:33:39,164
Speaker 4: my partner and I were trying to run a little

697
00:33:39,164 --> 00:33:43,804
Speaker 4: bit longer, and like at exactly three point one three miles, right,

698
00:33:43,964 --> 00:33:47,924
Speaker 4: I hit a wall pretty much right, And so like, yeah,

699
00:33:48,004 --> 00:33:51,204
Speaker 4: I think you're applying a lot more precision. But let

700
00:33:51,244 --> 00:33:54,604
Speaker 4: me let me ask what worth is your goal? You'll

701
00:33:54,604 --> 00:33:57,244
Speaker 4: say you're running a marathon for simplicity's sake. Should you

702
00:33:57,284 --> 00:34:00,444
Speaker 4: feel totally wiped out at the end? Is that a

703
00:34:00,524 --> 00:34:04,524
Speaker 4: proof that you optimally targeted the right amount of effort

704
00:34:04,604 --> 00:34:07,604
Speaker 4: and pace or do you want to feel still able

705
00:34:07,644 --> 00:34:09,884
Speaker 4: to walk around and not totally beat up?

706
00:34:11,204 --> 00:34:12,724
Speaker 2: You want to feel.

707
00:34:14,124 --> 00:34:16,964
Speaker 3: You do want to feel wiped out, but you don't

708
00:34:16,964 --> 00:34:18,924
Speaker 3: want to feel like you're wiped out until the very

709
00:34:19,004 --> 00:34:22,724
Speaker 3: last step, because if you, like most people who feel

710
00:34:22,764 --> 00:34:25,364
Speaker 3: wiped out at the end of a marathon. Push too

711
00:34:25,404 --> 00:34:28,604
Speaker 3: hard early and so then they've crushed themselves in the

712
00:34:28,684 --> 00:34:31,604
Speaker 3: last five miles, three miles, ten miles or a death march,

713
00:34:32,084 --> 00:34:35,084
Speaker 3: and you're gonna run a terrible race. And so feeling

714
00:34:35,124 --> 00:34:37,684
Speaker 3: wiped out is like necessary but not sufficient for having

715
00:34:37,764 --> 00:34:40,684
Speaker 3: run your optimal pace. But like your optimal pace is

716
00:34:40,724 --> 00:34:43,684
Speaker 3: you actually feel like you. I think of it as

717
00:34:43,724 --> 00:34:45,444
Speaker 3: you have one hundred pennies in your pocket, right and

718
00:34:45,484 --> 00:34:48,804
Speaker 3: you're spending them through the race, and the last foot

719
00:34:48,884 --> 00:34:50,724
Speaker 3: you spend, the last or the last quarter mile you

720
00:34:50,724 --> 00:34:52,964
Speaker 3: spend the last one. You often will spend all one

721
00:34:53,004 --> 00:34:57,524
Speaker 3: hundred pennies by mile twenty one, and then it's just hell.

722
00:34:58,164 --> 00:35:00,644
Speaker 4: Let me ask a question for people who are not

723
00:35:01,284 --> 00:35:03,724
Speaker 4: hardcore runners, but maybe more casual runners. What's your favorite

724
00:35:03,724 --> 00:35:06,644
Speaker 4: place to run in or around New York City.

725
00:35:08,004 --> 00:35:11,604
Speaker 3: Well, Prospect Park is amazing, right, I love it. There's

726
00:35:11,604 --> 00:35:13,684
Speaker 3: also a loop I love to do where you know,

727
00:35:13,684 --> 00:35:17,004
Speaker 3: I run out to the verizono. You run out on

728
00:35:17,004 --> 00:35:19,324
Speaker 3: the boardwalk onto the Verizona, you run on the boardwalk

729
00:35:19,364 --> 00:35:22,404
Speaker 3: in Corney Island, you come back on Ocean Avenue. Obviously,

730
00:35:22,484 --> 00:35:24,844
Speaker 3: that's a long run for people. But that's cool. I

731
00:35:24,924 --> 00:35:26,804
Speaker 3: do you think that, like along the Brooklyn Navy Yard

732
00:35:26,884 --> 00:35:29,204
Speaker 3: is a really good spot. I love the bridges right, Like,

733
00:35:29,404 --> 00:35:30,884
Speaker 3: we're a lot of wear and tear on your knees

734
00:35:30,924 --> 00:35:33,484
Speaker 3: going back and forth across the bridges. But you know,

735
00:35:33,564 --> 00:35:35,764
Speaker 3: running across like Williamsburg and back on Brooklyn is awesome

736
00:35:35,764 --> 00:35:37,164
Speaker 3: in the morning before it gets you crowded.

737
00:35:38,244 --> 00:35:41,604
Speaker 1: So we have a few more like serious questions. But

738
00:35:41,684 --> 00:35:44,564
Speaker 1: since Nate asked this, I'm going to give you just

739
00:35:44,604 --> 00:35:46,924
Speaker 1: a lightning round of very quick questions about running for

740
00:35:46,964 --> 00:35:48,924
Speaker 1: people who care about that. All right, best time of

741
00:35:49,004 --> 00:35:49,804
Speaker 1: day to run.

742
00:35:52,124 --> 00:35:52,644
Speaker 2: Sunrise?

743
00:35:53,004 --> 00:35:56,164
Speaker 1: Okay, oh that's beautiful. I sleep through sunrise.

744
00:35:56,204 --> 00:35:59,884
Speaker 4: Mostly surprised me about you, Maria.

745
00:36:00,204 --> 00:36:04,644
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm not a morning person at all. Least dependable body.

746
00:36:04,364 --> 00:36:07,804
Speaker 2: Part digestive system huh.

747
00:36:08,044 --> 00:36:08,524
Speaker 4: Interesting.

748
00:36:09,524 --> 00:36:11,284
Speaker 3: The blood flows away and it gets jostled, so you

749
00:36:11,284 --> 00:36:13,404
Speaker 3: get a lot of stomach upset, which is kind of surprising.

750
00:36:13,404 --> 00:36:16,844
Speaker 1: And non runners, Wow, that's yeah, that's very surprising. Pre

751
00:36:16,964 --> 00:36:18,004
Speaker 1: run rituals.

752
00:36:18,484 --> 00:36:21,564
Speaker 3: I stretch, I have a very like legitimate nutrition routine,

753
00:36:21,924 --> 00:36:25,364
Speaker 3: and then I watch samu Wan Duro winning the Chicago

754
00:36:25,444 --> 00:36:27,564
Speaker 3: Marathon back in like two thousand. I can't remember what

755
00:36:27,644 --> 00:36:30,804
Speaker 3: year it was, but like there's this incredible recording samu

756
00:36:30,804 --> 00:36:35,084
Speaker 3: Won Duro since passed away, but he's racing this guy

757
00:36:35,204 --> 00:36:37,404
Speaker 3: Kebdet and they're just going back and forth and back

758
00:36:37,404 --> 00:36:37,764
Speaker 3: and forth.

759
00:36:37,764 --> 00:36:38,964
Speaker 2: It looks like Sammy's just like.

760
00:36:38,924 --> 00:36:41,404
Speaker 3: Cooked and cooked and cooked and then he just destroys him.

761
00:36:41,964 --> 00:36:44,244
Speaker 3: And I'm not sure what Chicago Marathon is, but I

762
00:36:44,404 --> 00:36:47,084
Speaker 3: just always google like one jury cabadet Chicago Marathon and

763
00:36:47,124 --> 00:36:49,684
Speaker 3: I watch it like an hour before whenever marathon I'm running,

764
00:36:50,044 --> 00:36:50,684
Speaker 3: and it's great.

765
00:36:51,044 --> 00:36:52,884
Speaker 4: I love that. Yeah.

766
00:36:52,924 --> 00:36:55,684
Speaker 1: Carbloating, do you carbload one day before a race, two

767
00:36:55,724 --> 00:36:58,444
Speaker 1: days before a race? How do you work that in?

768
00:36:59,004 --> 00:36:59,644
Speaker 4: I don't.

769
00:36:59,644 --> 00:37:01,884
Speaker 3: I don't really like focus carbloating where you carb deplete

770
00:37:01,884 --> 00:37:03,604
Speaker 3: and then eat lots of carbs. I feel like you

771
00:37:03,684 --> 00:37:05,364
Speaker 3: hurt your immune system more than it's worth it, even

772
00:37:05,404 --> 00:37:07,004
Speaker 3: if it does help you store carbs a little bit.

773
00:37:07,484 --> 00:37:10,884
Speaker 3: I eat a sort of high density carbs Thursday races

774
00:37:10,884 --> 00:37:12,164
Speaker 3: on Sunday, I'll start on Thursday.

775
00:37:12,204 --> 00:37:14,324
Speaker 2: I'll be very focused on Friday a little bit on Saturday.

776
00:37:14,684 --> 00:37:18,404
Speaker 1: Okay, gels are choose, Jelos, what brand?

777
00:37:19,084 --> 00:37:20,764
Speaker 3: I think Morton is pretty good at it, But you

778
00:37:20,764 --> 00:37:22,644
Speaker 3: want to mix them up because you don't want palate fatigue.

779
00:37:22,684 --> 00:37:25,004
Speaker 3: You want so you want to like, you don't want

780
00:37:25,004 --> 00:37:26,564
Speaker 3: to get too used to something because then it'll make

781
00:37:26,604 --> 00:37:29,484
Speaker 3: you sick. And so A you rotate them and B

782
00:37:29,644 --> 00:37:32,724
Speaker 3: you try to suck them now without tasting them fascinating.

783
00:37:32,964 --> 00:37:35,884
Speaker 1: Yeah, this goes this goes to your to your gut

784
00:37:36,644 --> 00:37:40,324
Speaker 1: answer as well. Yeah, all right, what's the best rice

785
00:37:41,524 --> 00:37:44,284
Speaker 1: New York City Marathon? Okay, what about the Northeast Harboro

786
00:37:44,364 --> 00:37:44,804
Speaker 1: Road Race.

787
00:37:45,444 --> 00:37:48,004
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's amazing, but they canceled it. So sad that

788
00:37:48,484 --> 00:37:49,724
Speaker 2: was it. I love that race so much.

789
00:37:49,764 --> 00:37:51,244
Speaker 3: But yeah, the New York t amer you can't beat

790
00:37:51,244 --> 00:37:53,524
Speaker 3: the marathon, but the Northeast Tarborough Race close second.

791
00:37:53,764 --> 00:37:56,324
Speaker 1: All right, and let's let's uh end the lightning round

792
00:37:56,364 --> 00:37:59,164
Speaker 1: with a very risky business question. And you know, because

793
00:37:59,164 --> 00:38:00,964
Speaker 1: we talk about being d gens all the time and

794
00:38:01,564 --> 00:38:04,044
Speaker 1: gambling and all of that, what's the most djeny thing

795
00:38:04,084 --> 00:38:05,724
Speaker 1: that you've ever done for the sake of running?

796
00:38:06,844 --> 00:38:08,724
Speaker 2: And with djen as in like degenerative.

797
00:38:09,964 --> 00:38:12,924
Speaker 1: No, oh, Nate, we've got we've got a we've got

798
00:38:12,924 --> 00:38:18,084
Speaker 1: a djen newbie. Yeah, So when you're when you're a djen,

799
00:38:18,204 --> 00:38:21,604
Speaker 1: is someone who takes maybe a little bit too much

800
00:38:21,764 --> 00:38:24,924
Speaker 1: risk that they shouldn't be taking in the moment, makes

801
00:38:24,964 --> 00:38:28,124
Speaker 1: a bad decision. Someone like, for instance, if you're a

802
00:38:28,164 --> 00:38:30,444
Speaker 1: poker player, but then you decide to like use part

803
00:38:30,444 --> 00:38:33,244
Speaker 1: of your buy and to play slots, which you should actually.

804
00:38:32,964 --> 00:38:34,484
Speaker 2: Your dad might play slots.

805
00:38:34,724 --> 00:38:38,524
Speaker 4: Degen leaning, I don't mean to make anything about sexuality

806
00:38:38,604 --> 00:38:41,764
Speaker 4: or anything else, but like, yeah, I.

807
00:38:41,804 --> 00:38:43,964
Speaker 3: Mean there's definitely a lot of DGEN and sexuality that

808
00:38:44,044 --> 00:38:45,404
Speaker 3: is true.

809
00:38:47,884 --> 00:38:48,524
Speaker 2: That's interesting.

810
00:38:48,604 --> 00:38:51,684
Speaker 3: It's like, I mean, you've tried so hard, right, basically,

811
00:38:51,724 --> 00:38:53,204
Speaker 3: like running a mile too hard to stay with the

812
00:38:53,244 --> 00:38:56,084
Speaker 3: group is a basic DGEN move that everybody needs. But

813
00:38:56,204 --> 00:38:59,164
Speaker 3: the most DGEN thing that I've done in a race

814
00:38:59,284 --> 00:39:03,124
Speaker 3: or just in training either one. I mean, okay, so

815
00:39:03,244 --> 00:39:07,204
Speaker 3: literally this is good. Last Saturday, I ran the Grand Canyon, right,

816
00:39:07,284 --> 00:39:11,764
Speaker 3: uh huh. And I was running with like two folks

817
00:39:11,804 --> 00:39:14,124
Speaker 3: who with very intense jobs. The group people both like

818
00:39:14,124 --> 00:39:16,044
Speaker 3: two of them had very intense jobs and also had

819
00:39:16,124 --> 00:39:18,364
Speaker 3: like to catch flights back to be with their kids, right,

820
00:39:18,964 --> 00:39:20,484
Speaker 3: And so we had to complete it in a certain

821
00:39:20,484 --> 00:39:25,004
Speaker 3: amount of time, and a we like didn't really pay

822
00:39:25,004 --> 00:39:27,644
Speaker 3: attention to signs, which meant we added an extra like

823
00:39:27,724 --> 00:39:30,284
Speaker 3: thousand feet of climbing and five miles of running and

824
00:39:30,364 --> 00:39:33,644
Speaker 3: then b we like, we're so focused on getting to

825
00:39:33,684 --> 00:39:36,724
Speaker 3: the airport that we like, we ran as fast as

826
00:39:36,764 --> 00:39:38,804
Speaker 3: we could up the cans, like a twenty seven mile run.

827
00:39:38,804 --> 00:39:41,084
Speaker 3: And then I was like, guys, you have five minutes

828
00:39:41,124 --> 00:39:43,644
Speaker 3: to shower and pack, right, And they're like ten minutes,

829
00:39:43,684 --> 00:39:45,324
Speaker 3: all right, find ten minutes to shower and pack. And

830
00:39:45,324 --> 00:39:47,324
Speaker 3: so we packed and showered in ten minutes after running

831
00:39:47,324 --> 00:39:49,004
Speaker 3: the Grand Can and drove like ninety miles an hour,

832
00:39:49,044 --> 00:39:51,564
Speaker 3: got through the airport, barely made our flights, and it

833
00:39:51,644 --> 00:39:54,284
Speaker 3: was not great for the people next to us and

834
00:39:54,324 --> 00:39:55,564
Speaker 3: everything else or our suitcases.

835
00:39:55,604 --> 00:39:57,524
Speaker 4: You know, I am the world record holder for age

836
00:39:58,884 --> 00:40:00,964
Speaker 4: forty to forty nine year old men at the Denver

837
00:40:01,204 --> 00:40:04,284
Speaker 4: Airport trying to catch a connecting cart. Are you really? Yeah?

838
00:40:04,324 --> 00:40:04,964
Speaker 2: That's awesome.

839
00:40:06,364 --> 00:40:09,244
Speaker 4: Do you run? Do people run faster mostly when they're inner?

840
00:40:11,284 --> 00:40:14,484
Speaker 3: Yes, And that's a super interesting question of why, right,

841
00:40:14,644 --> 00:40:17,604
Speaker 3: Like what is it about the psychology and physiology of

842
00:40:17,604 --> 00:40:19,844
Speaker 3: being in a race? But it is totally different, and

843
00:40:19,884 --> 00:40:23,644
Speaker 3: you're able to reach a mental space and extract like

844
00:40:23,724 --> 00:40:26,524
Speaker 3: a percentage of maximum effort that is much higher than

845
00:40:26,964 --> 00:40:27,844
Speaker 3: at any other point.

846
00:40:28,444 --> 00:40:30,564
Speaker 1: There's a beautiful moment in your book when you talk

847
00:40:30,564 --> 00:40:32,884
Speaker 1: about this when you try to run a marathon yourself

848
00:40:32,884 --> 00:40:35,364
Speaker 1: in Prospect Park and it's much tougher than when you

849
00:40:35,444 --> 00:40:36,044
Speaker 1: actually have.

850
00:40:36,764 --> 00:40:38,444
Speaker 3: It's like there's a magic of being out there and

851
00:40:38,524 --> 00:40:40,724
Speaker 3: having people cheer you on. But of course it also

852
00:40:40,804 --> 00:40:43,284
Speaker 3: creates this dgen risk where you can like go too

853
00:40:43,324 --> 00:40:45,324
Speaker 3: fast because you're trying to like appeal to the crowd,

854
00:40:45,364 --> 00:40:48,404
Speaker 3: and then you cook yourself. But it's very different like

855
00:40:48,484 --> 00:40:51,204
Speaker 3: running by yourself, running with one person, running with a group,

856
00:40:51,284 --> 00:40:53,244
Speaker 3: running a race, you run totally different speeds.

857
00:40:53,644 --> 00:40:55,244
Speaker 1: What's your goal for this marathon this year?

858
00:40:55,324 --> 00:40:58,204
Speaker 3: Nick, It's this is the weirdest build up I've ever had.

859
00:40:58,244 --> 00:40:59,764
Speaker 3: So I've had two little injuries, I've had this weird

860
00:40:59,764 --> 00:41:01,724
Speaker 3: thing that happened last week. But I would love to

861
00:41:01,764 --> 00:41:05,204
Speaker 3: be able to run two forty three thirty seven, which

862
00:41:05,204 --> 00:41:07,204
Speaker 3: would be one second faster than I ran in two

863
00:41:07,244 --> 00:41:09,164
Speaker 3: thousand and seven, which is when I ran thirteen seconds

864
00:41:09,164 --> 00:41:10,284
Speaker 3: faster then when I got sick.

865
00:41:10,644 --> 00:41:12,604
Speaker 1: All right, Well, that is a very good goal, and

866
00:41:12,644 --> 00:41:15,564
Speaker 1: I think a really lovely note on which to end this,

867
00:41:15,724 --> 00:41:17,684
Speaker 1: even though we could go on forever, but.

868
00:41:17,724 --> 00:41:18,164
Speaker 2: So much fun.

869
00:41:18,164 --> 00:41:18,484
Speaker 4: You guys.

870
00:41:18,484 --> 00:41:20,684
Speaker 3: It's so interesting because you have such interesting ways into

871
00:41:20,724 --> 00:41:22,644
Speaker 3: this from your like poker thinking writing backgrounds.

872
00:41:22,684 --> 00:41:24,404
Speaker 2: This we should go on for hours.

873
00:41:24,084 --> 00:41:29,004
Speaker 1: But unfortunately you have a magazine to run. Nick, thank

874
00:41:29,044 --> 00:41:31,604
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us once again. The book

875
00:41:31,684 --> 00:41:34,284
Speaker 1: is the running ground. It is wonderful. You guys should

876
00:41:34,324 --> 00:41:37,164
Speaker 1: all buy a copy, and Nick, you should return to

877
00:41:37,284 --> 00:41:39,164
Speaker 1: editing and be my editor again. Thank you.

878
00:41:40,004 --> 00:41:42,684
Speaker 2: You should send me another nine hundred page story memo.

879
00:41:42,804 --> 00:41:44,604
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me on. Maria, thank you, Nate.

880
00:41:49,164 --> 00:41:50,964
Speaker 1: Let us know what you think of the show. Reach

881
00:41:50,964 --> 00:41:54,764
Speaker 1: out to us at Risky Business at pushkin dot FM.

882
00:41:54,924 --> 00:41:58,444
Speaker 1: Risky Business is hosted by me Maria Kanakova.

883
00:41:57,724 --> 00:42:00,444
Speaker 4: And by me Nate Silver. The show was a cool

884
00:42:00,484 --> 00:42:04,444
Speaker 4: production of Pushing Industries and iHeartMedia. This episode was produced

885
00:42:04,444 --> 00:42:08,764
Speaker 4: by Isaa Carter. Our associate producer is Sonya gerwit Lydia

886
00:42:08,884 --> 00:42:11,804
Speaker 4: Jean Ka and Daphne Chen are our editors, and our

887
00:42:11,804 --> 00:42:15,604
Speaker 4: executive producer is Jacob Goldstein. Mixing by Sarah Bruger.

888
00:42:16,204 --> 00:42:18,404
Speaker 1: If you like the show, please rate and review us

889
00:42:18,444 --> 00:42:21,124
Speaker 1: so other people can find us too, But once again,

890
00:42:21,244 --> 00:42:23,084
Speaker 1: only if you like us. We don't want those bad

891
00:42:23,084 --> 00:42:25,284
Speaker 1: reviews out there, Thanks for tuning in